[skyclad99]

They can & do visit both announced and unannounced. It is part of the evidence gathering.

SS cannot just remove a child off a whim - it requires a lengthy court process unless there is immediate risk of harm and even that requires going to court. You are then caught in the middle of litigation as is the right of the parent.

It takes nigh on 41 weeks or more for the court process to conclude - that is under funding.

Our local trust has 24 vacancies currently in its department - it is practically impossible for any department to run efficiently with such level of vacancies.

Recruiting to social services is demoralising for its workers because they’re scarred by cases and then abused widely by families and random folk on the internet.  No wonder nobody wants to do it.

Good post Liam

I think many on here are happy to blame Social Services without knowing the full facts. Lets wait until the enquiry has concluded before we nail them to the cross.

[KYA]

They can & do visit both announced and unannounced. It is part of the evidence gathering.

SS cannot just remove a child off a whim - it requires a lengthy court process unless there is immediate risk of harm and even that requires going to court. You are then caught in the middle of litigation as is the right of the parent.

It takes nigh on 41 weeks or more for the court process to conclude - that is under funding.

Our local trust has 24 vacancies currently in its department - it is practically impossible for any department to run efficiently with such level of vacancies.

Recruiting to social services is demoralising for its workers because they’re scarred by cases and then abused widely by families and random folk on the internet.  No wonder nobody wants to do it.

They should have the power to remove a child for a medical health check if there are concerns that seems an obvios step to me.
I'm not saying per sa there is no underfunding but it's clear in the cases mentioned on here that those involved from SS were negligent in carrying out their job I believe they even closed the case on Star despite a rack of evidence suggesting the child was being abused.
As with many things the abusers seem to have more rights than the abused this needs to change.
There are job vacancies everywhere that's the changing dynamics of the workforce they all want well paid easy jobs.

[KYA]

Good post Liam

I think many on here are happy to blame Social Services without knowing the full facts. Lets wait until the enquiry has concluded before we nail them to the cross.

You don't need an enquiry just read the list of mistakes they made the people involved are unfit to be in the job an Ofsted report criticised the department in 2018 and no significant improvements made since then with the boss quitting his £121K jobs days before the trial.
The department was rocked by an Ofsted report in 2018 which branded it 'inadequate' and said some children under its care were 'at risk of serious harm.'

[skyclad99]

You don't need an enquiry just read the list of mistakes they made the people involved are unfit to be in the job an Ofsted report criticised the department in 2018 and no significant improvements made since then with the boss quitting his £121K jobs days before the trial.
The department was rocked by an Ofsted report in 2018 which branded it 'inadequate' and said some children under its care were 'at risk of serious harm.'

That applies to all Government departments KYA, trust me I used to work for one of them.

The police would be a very good example.

An inquiry is necessary to establish the exact facts leading to these horrendous situations. We cannot simply refer to a three year old report and condemn them

[KYA]

That applies to all Government departments KYA, trust me I used to work for one of them.

The police would be a very good example.

An inquiry is necessary to establish the exact facts leading to these horrendous situations. We cannot simply refer to a three year old report and condemn them

I appreciate we have to go through the hoops an exercise in trying to pass the buck and will achieve and change nothing, i'm sure those on the jury have already made up their minds on the competence of those involved.

[skyclad99]

I appreciate we have to go through the hoops an exercise in trying to pass the buck and will achieve and change nothing, i'm sure those on the jury have already made up their minds on the competence of those involved.

Having been involved in a few as a fact finder, its a little bit more that you suggest. An enquiry will examine all contacts made with the family in minute detail to see if the guidance was strictly adhered to and what was done as a result of these contacts. We need to remember that it came out in Court that poor Arthur was trained to lie to the Social Services about his circumstances. With the best will in the world, there is not a great deal you can do without the evidence to gain the appropriate Court Orders to take action. The days of obtaining such an order on 'a hunch' are long gone sadly.

[KYA]

Having been involved in a few as a fact finder, its a little bit more that you suggest. An enquiry will examine all contacts made with the family in minute detail to see if the guidance was strictly adhered to and what was done as a result of these contacts. We need to remember that it came out in Court that poor Arthur was trained to lie to the Social Services about his circumstances. With the best will in the world, there is not a great deal you can do without the evidence to gain the appropriate Court Orders to take action. The days of obtaining such an order on 'a hunch' are long gone sadly.

Why are the concerns of relatives so easily dismissed? one person you may take at face value but when there are several as appears in both Star and Arthurs cases surely red lights alarm bells would be going off in your head instead of criticizing them, that's one question I would like the answer's too.

[skyclad99]

Why are the concerns of relatives so easily dismissed? one person you may take at face value but when there are several as appears in both Star and Arthurs cases surely red lights alarm bells would be going off in your head instead of criticizing them, that's one question I would like the answer's too.

I agree, and an independent enquiry will establish all of this

[Droitwich Baggie]

I’m not sure what you mean by single departments. Most already are single departments within their authority though many are now going into trusts.

It’s impossible to have ‘single departments’ as such as SS now combines any Governmental department such as housing, police, fire services, education & health care.

Exactly.
They are combined and now too big to be able to do a single job properly.
Things get hidden and lost in a monster.

[johnny Cash]

Nothing much will change. Failings will be found, hands will be slapped and blame will be apportioned. 

At the end of it all though, child services will still be underfunded, as will elderly care and the NHS in general. The whole thing is a mess and there is no easy answer. Processes and practices will probably be changed, but I don't see how you will close all of the cracks without serious investment.  Its nearly 15 years since Baby P and this situation will be a rinse and repeat until the next time.

What these kids have been through is heartbreaking. I wish I had the belief things will get better.

[LiamTheBaggie]

Exactly.
They are combined and now too big to be able to do a single job properly.
Things get hidden and lost in a monster.

But those departments have to be taken into account as many of them will have existing issues with families which may then influence the course of action that needs to taken.

We cannot just simply state "its the job of social services" as otherwise what you find is that we have more of these cases and not less.

That is then why for those children subject to care orders or child protection plans, you will have to undertake weekly/monthly core group meetings, child protection review meetings etc to assess improvements/whats working well and future risks.

It needs more people contributing, not less.

And that's why Government should support qualifications in social care to enable more individuals to take up an interest in the field and furthermore pay them accordingly for what they have to do deal with. Referrals continue to increase whilst the number of workers available to review them continues to decrease. That is a real problem.

And to add on a general point - just because social services may close a case from there end does not mean that no support is provided. There are early help and targeted family support units which will pick up cases which may not meet the threshold for social services so that they do not simply fall off the radar.

[KYA]

Nothing much will change. Failings will be found, hands will be slapped and blame will be apportioned. 

At the end of it all though, child services will still be underfunded, as will elderly care and the NHS in general. The whole thing is a mess and there is no easy answer. Processes and practices will probably be changed, but I don't see how you will close all of the cracks without serious investment.  Its nearly 15 years since Baby P and this situation will be a rinse and repeat until the next time.

What these kids have been through is heartbreaking. I wish I had the belief things will get better.

The NHS is a huge blackhole wasting millions every year and getting worse with made-up jobs and less spent on the actual treatment of patients.
The whole system to work effectively would need overhauling which is never going to happen.
Last year, the UK spent more on healthcare as a proportion of GDP than any other so-called "advanced economy" bar the United States. What? More than France, more than Germany, more than the Netherlands? Indeed yes, according to data collated by the OECD.

[hardtobeat]

We could always try spending the money in the right places . Over the last 10 years the number of Doctors , Nurses , hospital beds etc etc have all gone down . For those advocating a US type service take a look at how many suicides and other deaths  they get as a result of having either no insurance or being unable to pay for their treatment !

[LiamTheBaggie]

Lets not have this topic stray from the children and social services....

[seteefeet]

Lets not have this topic stray from the children and social services....

It's all linked though isn't it? NHS cuts have a massive bearing on this issue and are at the heart of it. Social workers are human and make mistakes and some are probably poor at their job, but, I would imagine, most people that go into such a profession, do so out of a genuine desire to help and protect.
If they are drowning in work load, red tape and bureaucracy, then that needs to be addressed and funded accordingly.
Protecting our kids should be an absolute priority and money should not be an excuse for even one death such as this.

[KYA]

It's all linked though isn't it? NHS cuts have a massive bearing on this issue and are at the heart of it. Social workers are human and make mistakes and some are probably poor at their job, but, I would imagine, most people that go into such a profession, do so out of a genuine desire to help and protect.
If they are drowning in work load, red tape and bureaucracy, then that needs to be addressed and funded accordingly.
Protecting our kids should be an absolute priority and money should not be an excuse for even one death such as this.

Serious question how much would you be prepared to see say income tax rise to pay for a hopefully but far from guaranteed better health service? chances are the money would be wasted then what?
Sorry to admin  I have no problem if you remove mine and other posts that have gone off-topic.

[hardtobeat]

Just to put some context into work loads. Ten years ago apparently there were 55000 job vacancies in the health and social care sector today that number is around 198000 !

[KYA]

Just to put some context into work loads. Ten years ago apparently there were 55000 job vacancies in the health and social care sector today that number is around 198000 !

Where do you get your figures from it's nothing like the information from GOV UK.
https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/children-s-social-work-workforce

[mulliganstired]

The tabloids don't help, in a couple of months they will be running a story about dreadful social workers taking children from a nice family into care for a couple of playground bruises.  The truth is those two killed the kid, nobody else.  Throw away the key

[Droitwich Baggie]

I resurrected this thread to keep it in all of our minds.
No apologies.