Author Topic: Darren Moore  (Read 854423 times)

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Fritzl Palace

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1825 on: October 25, 2018, 09:34:20 AM »
Stats that Skysports put up last night:

Goals conceded - 22 - Championship rank 20th
Shots faced - 212 - Championship rank 23rd
Shots on target faced - 71 - Championship rank 22nd
Clean sheets - 1 - Championship rank 23rd

Wolves and Cardiff went up last season only conceding 39 all season.

Regardless of how 'lethal' our attack is, you cant continue to defend and set up the way we do.

I'm not usually one for statistics, but Chris that is absolutely damning.  Anyone thinking that last night was a one off need only look at those, it has been on the cards all season, we are so open defensively.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1826 on: October 25, 2018, 09:35:16 AM »
It amuses me that some still think Darren is capable, or will for that matter, change anything. We are 14 games into the season now and nothing has changed in the slightest; if anything, the defending looks even more chaotic now that when he first introduced the nonsensical 5-3-2 system for us, the only difference between last night and any other week is that Derby actually had the ability to kill us off with their sustained dominance.

Look at our games this season and there are only really a couple that I can see where we have looked like a 'good' team, which is how we should be looking most weeks against inferior opposition.

Bolton (h) - We were awful and beaten accordingly
Forest (a) - Utterly dreadful display, but they failed to capitalise on their dominance
Norwich (a) - We outscored them, with Rhodes in particular missing a couple of gilt edged chances
QPR (h) - Awful first 45 minutes before our attacking players came to the fore
Boro (a) - We offered absolutely nothing
Stoke (h) - Our best performance this season in my eyes, but still ended up getting lucky with them missing a penalty that could have changed the course of the game
Blues (a) - We were absolutely awful and lucky to come away with a point
Bristol City (h) - They should have been 3-0 up before we fashioned our first chance
Milwall (h) - Our most comfortable game in terms of them offering little up front, but look at how average their players are
Preston (a) - Abject display with us managing to outscore them as we did at Norwich with a similar performance.
Sheff Wed (a) - Should have been dead and buried before Barnes magic saved us
Reading (h) - One of the worst first half displays you will ever see before their keeper came and missed a cross to get us back into a game we should have been dead and buried in yet again
Wigan (a) - Terrible performance in which we created absolutely nothing
Derby (h) - Not much more to be said

We have performed awfully. In short, Barnes and Gayle, as well as Phillips to a lesser extent, have dug us out of many a hole this season. The coaching staff are doing absolutely nothing to improve us and are far out of their depth. We have, as we did with Silva a few years back when we retained Pulis, missed the perfect opportunity to bring in a young coach who knows this level and has performed way above his pay grade at Brentford who was keen to take the job and instead have a bloke in charge who, I'm sorry, but you have to admit, is thick as two short planks, you only have to watch his interview post match last night to see that, alongside a bloke who is trying to implement the system used with Belgium and their far superior players with defenders who cannot pass a pub. Failing to bring in a right back in the summer, failing to bolster the centre of midfield because Darren clearly read Jacko waxing lyrical on here and felt that Brunt was going to be the Championship equivalent of Pirlo....so so many mistakes made already.

We are what, fourth in the league currently? And I am full of so much discontent it is untrue. Even when we went on a winning run, I remained on here head above the parapet predicting what was going to come based on our performances and here we are. Our defensive record is utterly lamentable and I have no faith that the only man who has the power to alter things will be able to come up with any answers.

Disgruntled.
Everything that needs to be said in a nutshell.but what a big nutshell that is

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1827 on: October 25, 2018, 09:49:40 AM »
And now 3 goals conceded more than QPR

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1828 on: October 25, 2018, 10:03:45 AM »
The most worrying thing about the last 2 games is that we appear to have been found out and any manager worth his salt will know that all he has to do is pressure our cumbersome midfield and fragile, fragmented, back 3 and they are in with a chance. Now, that's not saying they will succeed however, as Fritzl has so succinctly pointed out, this has been the case all season, yet we have still managed to get results.
The test for Moore and Jones now is how they react. Do they persevere with this system, in the hope that we will still win more than we lose, or will they change to counter the oppositions approach to it?
For me it's simply a case of slight changes, in both system and personnel, rather than ripping up the blueprint and reverting to a, god forbid, Pulis style system.
Go 4 at the back, bring Morrison or Hoolahan into a 5 man midfield and have someone on the bench who can actually affect a game, Rodriguez, Sako, Burke etc. Simple.
Oh and no more Brunt at CM. Not ever.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1829 on: October 25, 2018, 10:07:56 AM »
When the pressing issue was raised earlier in the season I was told it was crucial to the way we play as it means we can pass through them.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1830 on: October 25, 2018, 10:11:46 AM »
When the pressing issue was raised earlier in the season I was told it was crucial to the way we play as it means we can pass through them.

In theory that is right as the pressing team will leave holes for us to exploit...sadly the theory isn't working as our defenders are poor passers and the midfield don't look to pass forward just sideways or straight back to the defence.
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1831 on: October 25, 2018, 10:14:34 AM »
Whilst there were clearly issues we were collecting points at the required rate up until Wigan, the measure of the Manager now is can he change things and get back on track?
Of course that is what we all want to see, we need to keep behind the man and the club through what is the first big test
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1832 on: October 25, 2018, 10:33:45 AM »
When the pressing issue was raised earlier in the season I was told it was crucial to the way we play as it means we can pass through them.
That was true and reaped rewards, but the opposition is now getting wise to it so we need to adapt accordingly. I hoped that Wigan would be the catalyst for change. Last night will be, I have no doubt.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1833 on: October 25, 2018, 10:56:26 AM »
It amuses me that some still think Darren is capable, or will for that matter, change anything. We are 14 games into the season now and nothing has changed in the slightest; if anything, the defending looks even more chaotic now that when he first introduced the nonsensical 5-3-2 system for us, the only difference between last night and any other week is that Derby actually had the ability to kill us off with their sustained dominance.

Look at our games this season and there are only really a couple that I can see where we have looked like a 'good' team, which is how we should be looking most weeks against inferior opposition.

Bolton (h) - We were awful and beaten accordingly
Forest (a) - Utterly dreadful display, but they failed to capitalise on their dominance
Norwich (a) - We outscored them, with Rhodes in particular missing a couple of gilt edged chances
QPR (h) - Awful first 45 minutes before our attacking players came to the fore
Boro (a) - We offered absolutely nothing
Stoke (h) - Our best performance this season in my eyes, but still ended up getting lucky with them missing a penalty that could have changed the course of the game
Blues (a) - We were absolutely awful and lucky to come away with a point
Bristol City (h) - They should have been 3-0 up before we fashioned our first chance
Milwall (h) - Our most comfortable game in terms of them offering little up front, but look at how average their players are
Preston (a) - Abject display with us managing to outscore them as we did at Norwich with a similar performance.
Sheff Wed (a) - Should have been dead and buried before Barnes magic saved us
Reading (h) - One of the worst first half displays you will ever see before their keeper came and missed a cross to get us back into a game we should have been dead and buried in yet again
Wigan (a) - Terrible performance in which we created absolutely nothing
Derby (h) - Not much more to be said

We have performed awfully. In short, Barnes and Gayle, as well as Phillips to a lesser extent, have dug us out of many a hole this season. The coaching staff are doing absolutely nothing to improve us and are far out of their depth. We have, as we did with Silva a few years back when we retained Pulis, missed the perfect opportunity to bring in a young coach who knows this level and has performed way above his pay grade at Brentford who was keen to take the job and instead have a bloke in charge who, I'm sorry, but you have to admit, is thick as two short planks, you only have to watch his interview post match last night to see that, alongside a bloke who is trying to implement the system used with Belgium and their far superior players with defenders who cannot pass a pub. Failing to bring in a right back in the summer, failing to bolster the centre of midfield because Darren clearly read Jacko waxing lyrical on here and felt that Brunt was going to be the Championship equivalent of Pirlo....so so many mistakes made already.

We are what, fourth in the league currently? And I am full of so much discontent it is untrue. Even when we went on a winning run, I remained on here head above the parapet predicting what was going to come based on our performances and here we are. Our defensive record is utterly lamentable and I have no faith that the only man who has the power to alter things will be able to come up with any answers.

Disgruntled.

Absolutely spot on. Even in many games we've won we've been lucky/relied on our attacking talent (on loan) to dig us out of holes.

Both last night and Wigan have been very much on the cards for a while.

Worrying times in my opinion (poor management, poor squad barring the loan players and not much coming from the youth team). The current management should be given a little while longer to try and turn it around but not too long. I fear if we don't go up this season we could be in the doldrums. Promotion this year is key.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1834 on: October 25, 2018, 11:57:02 AM »
In theory that is right as the pressing team will leave holes for us to exploit...sadly the theory isn't working as our defenders are poor passers and the midfield don't look to pass forward just sideways or straight back to the defence.

Personally, I think there's a number of problems, but glaringly for me last night, was Brunt & Field not coming for the ball.
We're expecting our defenders to hit 20 & 30 yard passes accurately, even the top Premiership clubs don't do that.

Just looked at the highlights & the other problem we have is marking. We're giving the attackers time to get shots away, when we should be closing down. Compare that to the Derby defender who took the ball off HRK's toe.
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1835 on: October 25, 2018, 12:01:11 PM »
Much as I like Big Dave and appreciate that in many games the football has been far more entertaining. I worry about his comments after games like last night. His assessment of the match was naive at best and he seemed to have his head in the sand. He is either being loyal to players (and hopefully saying what he believes in the dressing room) or perhaps he realises that he has quite a few issues with certain poor aspects of the squad but just has to do his best to get as much as possible from them. Surely he can see what everyone else (fans and pundits) are saying that the defenders just can't seem to be able to adapt to playing from the back and our midfield is too poor to support them? In so many games balls go into midfield from the back three only to come right back at us as our midfielders just don't seem capable of gathering, retaining or passing the ball.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1836 on: October 25, 2018, 12:08:01 PM »
Part of the reason they pop the ball back to the defence is because they're under pressure when receiving the ball and have no next ball on.  The wing backs are pushed further up and the CH's are spread out.  If they don't have time to turn and face forward their options are very limited. 

This is what happens when teams press us, they're up against our CH's and midfield.  It's ok to not worry about the CH's that are wide as they're so far away they're unable to play a neat triangle and it gives the opponent time to close them down.

If you watch decent teams play a deep lying MF will pick the ball up off the CH's, practically off their toes.  That's the CH's job done.  This means the opponent are all in front of the MF.  By playing the way we do we let the opponent get in between our back line and our MF.  Give the ball away and we are under serious pressure.

It would all be interesting and go ok if it wasn't for the fact our CH's seem unable to play 10 yard passes at times, let alone 20-30 yard passes.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 12:12:59 PM by boinging_along »

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1837 on: October 25, 2018, 12:19:59 PM »
Much as I like Big Dave and appreciate that in many games the football has been far more entertaining. I worry about his comments after games like last night. His assessment of the match was naive at best and he seemed to have his head in the sand. He is either being loyal to players (and hopefully saying what he believes in the dressing room) or perhaps he realises that he has quite a few issues with certain poor aspects of the squad but just has to do his best to get as much as possible from them. Surely he can see what everyone else (fans and pundits) are saying that the defenders just can't seem to be able to adapt to playing from the back and our midfield is too poor to support them? In so many games balls go into midfield from the back three only to come right back at us as our midfielders just don't seem capable of gathering, retaining or passing the ball.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The attitude of our midfield seems to be, if put under the slightest pressure, pass back to the defence / keeper. Issue with this is that the defenders / keeper aren't equipped to deal with it so the opposition just press high and catch them out. The 1st goal highlights this perfectly. Rodriguez was under barely any pressure but, instead of holding the play up and assessing his options, he nonchalantly chunks it backwards. It seems almost instinctive now, especially with Brunt, Livermore and Mears and also Field last night which suggests it is a premeditated plan. What we need is players to have the confidence to retain possession and look for options rather than just chickening out and taking the cowardly option of passing responsibility back to an insecure CH. Four at the back has to be the answer, at least until we get CH's who are comfortable on the ball and midfielders who want the ball and don't shirk responsibility.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1838 on: October 25, 2018, 12:41:29 PM »
Much as I like Big Dave and appreciate that in many games the football has been far more entertaining. I worry about his comments after games like last night. His assessment of the match was naive at best and he seemed to have his head in the sand. He is either being loyal to players (and hopefully saying what he believes in the dressing room) or perhaps he realises that he has quite a few issues with certain poor aspects of the squad but just has to do his best to get as much as possible from them. Surely he can see what everyone else (fans and pundits) are saying that the defenders just can't seem to be able to adapt to playing from the back and our midfield is too poor to support them? In so many games balls go into midfield from the back three only to come right back at us as our midfielders just don't seem capable of gathering, retaining or passing the ball.

It will be now that we find out if he is cut out to be a manager, dare I say that the honeymoon is coming to an end
My old man always said 'You can't educate pork!'

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1839 on: October 25, 2018, 12:44:33 PM »
Apart from Huddersfield who got promoted with a negative goal difference.

Fair point and you are correct. However to add context Huddersfield finished fifth and were twelve points behind second placed Brighton. Compare our current squad to Huddersfield's during their promotion season and I would be hoping for a better return.

Further to this and despite their negative GD Huddersfield conceded 1.2 goals per game and not the 1.6 per game as previously mentioned. We've conceded 22 goals in 14 League games, twice as many as Leeds and just over three times as many as Boro'. It's been great celebrating our goals this season but if we continue to concede at this rate we'll ship something like 70 in the League. Forest conceded 72 that season and finished 21st.

I doubt we'll continue to concede at the same rate all season long, and we won't finish as low as Forest did back then. But something does need to be done, and it needs to be done quickly. As we keep being told fixtures come thick and fast in the Championship. Fourteen games gone, as a team we're going backwards defensively and the forwards can't always be relied on to get us out of jail.
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1840 on: October 25, 2018, 12:54:25 PM »
His post match comments really concern me, I really hope its a front and he doesn't believe we were in the ascendency and that Gayle's non penalty changed the game.

 
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1841 on: October 25, 2018, 01:15:54 PM »
I've said before how he seems to be falling to old British manager traps of being inflexible, almost intransigent, with team selection and tactics. But I had another thought last night.

He's been talking about "We not me" and respect, making sure we have the right characters - but has that actually taken away from our game? Granted we don't have the youth, pace, and energy of Derby, but they were in our faces and working hard, while several times this season we've just seemed to drift through games.

It's one thing to have a positive attitude but you also need a winning mentality.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1842 on: October 25, 2018, 02:18:07 PM »
I cannot believe that he would want to bring in a possession style based mantra and then sign someone like Kyle Bartley to try and implement it. There is no consistency between recruitment and playing style.

Based on the evidence we are seeing, we have to bin off this formation and revert to a more solid base which we can build from. The only individual in this current system who has flourished is Harvey Barnes because the rest are all at sea.

I agree with Fritizl to an extent - this division is that bad that the quality of Barnes and Gayle have really papered over the cracks. The first time we have came across a side with any real sort of quality has wiped the floor with us. And if we are being honest, should have scored more.

Moore spoke after the game about it being bizzare and Derby being more clinical. Derby were far from clinical! If they had been they could potentially have run up a cricket score.

It's time to ditch this idealistic mantra when we do not have the players to perform it. Lets get back to basic and try and solidify ourselves.

What does not help is that we are severely lacking a right back which means reverting to a back four is difficult because it means the useless Bartley will have to partner Hegazi. Appalling that we did not sign a right back in the summer.

The substitutions last night was also pathetic - no inventiveness to try and change the game. Settling for the same shape, which had been over-ran, whilst 2-0 down and resorting to Mears and Kanu. Terrible on so many levels.
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1843 on: October 25, 2018, 09:17:21 PM »
I cannot believe that he would want to bring in a possession style based mantra and then sign someone like Kyle Bartley to try and implement it. There is no consistency between recruitment and playing style.

Based on the evidence we are seeing, we have to bin off this formation and revert to a more solid base which we can build from. The only individual in this current system who has flourished is Harvey Barnes because the rest are all at sea.

I agree with Fritizl to an extent - this division is that bad that the quality of Barnes and Gayle have really papered over the cracks. The first time we have came across a side with any real sort of quality has wiped the floor with us. And if we are being honest, should have scored more.

Moore spoke after the game about it being bizzare and Derby being more clinical. Derby were far from clinical! If they had been they could potentially have run up a cricket score.

It's time to ditch this idealistic mantra when we do not have the players to perform it. Lets get back to basic and try and solidify ourselves.

What does not help is that we are severely lacking a right back which means reverting to a back four is difficult because it means the useless Bartley will have to partner Hegazi. Appalling that we did not sign a right back in the summer.

The substitutions last night was also pathetic - no inventiveness to try and change the game. Settling for the same shape, which had been over-ran, whilst 2-0 down and resorting to Mears and Kanu. Terrible on so many levels.


We did actually change shape eventually, we went 4-3-3 and actually started to look a bit better with Morrison dictating play on the ball, Field carrying it forward and Barnes breaking free from his shackles. Admittedly Derby had done their job by then and the personnel we used were far from ideal in certain areas.

My heart sinks every time Robson-Kanu enters the field unless we're about 3-0 up.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1844 on: October 25, 2018, 10:09:02 PM »
Stats that Skysports put up last night:

Goals conceded - 22 - Championship rank 20th
Shots faced - 212 - Championship rank 23rd
Shots on target faced - 71 - Championship rank 22nd
Clean sheets - 1 - Championship rank 23rd

Wolves and Cardiff went up last season only conceding 39 all season.

Regardless of how 'lethal' our attack is, you cant continue to defend and set up the way we do.
It genuinely doesn't matter
We could conceded 100, as long as we score 200
It's points per game that matter, and we ain't doing bad
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1845 on: October 25, 2018, 10:13:14 PM »
It amuses me that some still think Darren is capable, or will for that matter, change anything. We are 14 games into the season now and nothing has changed in the slightest; if anything, the defending looks even more chaotic now that when he first introduced the nonsensical 5-3-2 system for us, the only difference between last night and any other week is that Derby actually had the ability to kill us off with their sustained dominance.

Look at our games this season and there are only really a couple that I can see where we have looked like a 'good' team, which is how we should be looking most weeks against inferior opposition.

Bolton (h) - We were awful and beaten accordingly
Forest (a) - Utterly dreadful display, but they failed to capitalise on their dominance
Norwich (a) - We outscored them, with Rhodes in particular missing a couple of gilt edged chances
QPR (h) - Awful first 45 minutes before our attacking players came to the fore
Boro (a) - We offered absolutely nothing
Stoke (h) - Our best performance this season in my eyes, but still ended up getting lucky with them missing a penalty that could have changed the course of the game
Blues (a) - We were absolutely awful and lucky to come away with a point
Bristol City (h) - They should have been 3-0 up before we fashioned our first chance
Milwall (h) - Our most comfortable game in terms of them offering little up front, but look at how average their players are
Preston (a) - Abject display with us managing to outscore them as we did at Norwich with a similar performance.
Sheff Wed (a) - Should have been dead and buried before Barnes magic saved us
Reading (h) - One of the worst first half displays you will ever see before their keeper came and missed a cross to get us back into a game we should have been dead and buried in yet again
Wigan (a) - Terrible performance in which we created absolutely nothing
Derby (h) - Not much more to be said

We have performed awfully. In short, Barnes and Gayle, as well as Phillips to a lesser extent, have dug us out of many a hole this season. The coaching staff are doing absolutely nothing to improve us and are far out of their depth. We have, as we did with Silva a few years back when we retained Pulis, missed the perfect opportunity to bring in a young coach who knows this level and has performed way above his pay grade at Brentford who was keen to take the job and instead have a bloke in charge who, I'm sorry, but you have to admit, is thick as two short planks, you only have to watch his interview post match last night to see that, alongside a bloke who is trying to implement the system used with Belgium and their far superior players with defenders who cannot pass a pub. Failing to bring in a right back in the summer, failing to bolster the centre of midfield because Darren clearly read Jacko waxing lyrical on here and felt that Brunt was going to be the Championship equivalent of Pirlo....so so many mistakes made already.

We are what, fourth in the league currently? And I am full of so much discontent it is untrue. Even when we went on a winning run, I remained on here head above the parapet predicting what was going to come based on our performances and here we are. Our defensive record is utterly lamentable and I have no faith that the only man who has the power to alter things will be able to come up with any answers.

Disgruntled.
Good post, and I agree with much that you say. I did not want Darren to be appointed, but I understand why he was, because ,
(a) The people running the club thought that he had done a good job , and that supporters would have been upset if he had not been given his chance. We this one would not have been,
(b) Secondly Darren was the cheap option, and would take the job without making any demands for a large transfer budget.
It is all about preserving as much money as possible for the owner, and hoping for the best.
Darren is not cut out to manage this club and is certainly not good enough to do so.
His insistence on playing this back three and expecting them to play out is ludicrous, and we have all had enough of it.
Frankly, for me, promotion back to a premier league where we would have not the slightest chance of competing, is not the priority.
We need a bright young manager, able to harness the best of our young players , and complement with other good young players from other sources, to play an attractive style of football, and properly compete at this level.
The retention of the old guard who have let us down time and time again seems to be another of Darren's traits, and his refusal to give our youngsters game time is cowardly.
Does he really think we are stupid enough to believe that even our inexperienced youngsters could possibly perform any worse than the likes of Mears, Bartley, Brunt, and HRK ? 
I suspect that we will see a long drawn out wait for the inevitable dismissal.

 
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1846 on: October 25, 2018, 11:32:01 PM »
I wanted Darren to get the job, after the way he handled the last few games in the Premiership and looking at the mess and the drop he was left with.
I now feel that he may not be the right man at this time to help us start to win and succeed again.
I am a hard task master (always have been) and want to see results.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1847 on: October 26, 2018, 09:10:32 AM »
Can't disagree with anything posted 2 above by fritzl/68
The last 6 games last season, the pressure was off and it was still the same players that had seen off Pulis/Pardew, perhaps they played with freedom.
I love DM and want him to succeed but I didnt want him to get the job because I always felt that with our relegation/recruitment and all things off season Albion something like this would happen and he'd end up as a fall guy.
In my opinion we are an average side in the poorest Championship for a while. Without serious investment I'd fear for any team getting promoted this season.
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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1848 on: October 26, 2018, 09:26:56 AM »
Can't disagree with anything posted 2 above by fritzl/68
The last 6 games last season, the pressure was off and it was still the same players that had seen off Pulis/Pardew, perhaps they played with freedom.
I love DM and want him to succeed but I didnt want him to get the job because I always felt that with our relegation/recruitment and all things off season Albion something like this would happen and he'd end up as a fall guy.
In my opinion we are an average side in the poorest Championship for a while. Without serious investment I'd fear for any team getting promoted this season.

what 4th, 2 points off top spot?

Yes it's frustrating that we have now lost 2 games (and 4 in total) in a row and the players are struggling with a new formation especially away from home and Moore doesn't seem to see the issues that fans have identified but a little perspective in needed I think. We are only 1/3 of the way through the season.

The fact that we switched to 4 at the back leads me to think that Moore is realising that he can't stick religiously to playing 3 at the back regardless.

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Re: Darren Moore
« Reply #1849 on: October 26, 2018, 09:28:21 AM »
Can't disagree with anything posted 2 above by fritzl/68
The last 6 games last season, the pressure was off and it was still the same players that had seen off Pulis/Pardew, perhaps they played with freedom.
I love DM and want him to succeed but I didnt want him to get the job because I always felt that with our relegation/recruitment and all things off season Albion something like this would happen and he'd end up as a fall guy.
In my opinion we are an average side in the poorest Championship for a while. Without serious investment I'd fear for any team getting promoted this season.
You are spot on with that comment Elmo, but in our case we will need serious investment even in the Championship.
No Brunt,Morrison,Barry, Houlahan,Gayle,Barnes, not to mention Livermore,Dawson, Gibbs,Rodriguez probably all wanting out. 
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