[baggiejohn]

With Bilić squad and no time on the training field. The poll in the survival thread is telling imo.

Polls are just an opinion of lay people, yours is no more valid than mine.

Goals against are a fact, & it's a fact that of the 43 goals conceded, 17 have been under Allardyce's watch.

[PartisanBaggie]

Polls are just an opinion of lay people, yours is no more valid than mine.

Goals against are a fact, & it's a fact that of the 43 goals conceded, 17 have been under Allardyce's watch.

Big Sam hasn’t even had a transfer window yet. Let’s see what happens after that eh...

[Adder]

Drew with the Champions...

I have the same concerns about Conor Townsend to be fair. 

We need him back...Gibbs will be injured, it's been an unexpected bonus having him complete two games in 4 days.

[baggie82]

Big Sam hasn’t even had a transfer window yet. Let’s see what happens after that eh...

He is presently suffering the same problem as your best mate Bilic had prior, a pound land budget to work with.

[johnny Cash]

He is presently suffering the same problem as your best mate Bilic had prior, a pound land budget to work with.

Bilic had around £40m, SA allegedly has less than £2m and the loan market.

Let’s see if Sam can address some of the issues your mate couldn’t with 5% of his budget.

[Baggies]

Weird but true. I always thought it was the pressure from the crowd that forced sides to play differently and often lose at home but that can't be the reason at this time.

I think this has provided some proof that our recent poor home form (as in the last couple of years) probably isn’t fan related, but more likely down to psychology (at a guess). People claim the Hawthorns can be a bit negative, but it’s no worse than anywhere else, however having been to a few grounds, notably Villa Park, when things aren’t going well there the fans can boil over very quickly and in a much more explosive way. This might be why Villa have been so good post fans being locked out (the same for West Ham and Everton).

By comparison, the Hawthorns is a fairly tame place to play.

[baggie82]

Bilic had around £40m, SA allegedly has less than £2m and the loan market.

Let’s see if Sam can address some of the issues your mate couldn’t with 5% of his budget.

It's easy to make transfer budgets sound impressive by adding up the payments due over the next 5 years. Paints an entirely misleading picture of course. We were last in the queue to get any players in as Dowling had to throw pennies at other clubs, with limited money upfront to get deals done. The budget approved by the board in the summer left our squad investment 20th out of 20 competitors - at the very bottom of the pack.

Can't complain with the effort tonight. Close defeats like these are almost worse than getting hammered (no pun intended). Team tried and played okay in spells but we're just too brittle when it mattered. Gibbs defending that cross like a child against a man summed it up.

Allardyce's record so far, is very similar to Bilic. The alarming decline when he took over, in which we went from bad to very bad has been arrested, although I am still concerned about our home form. I'll support Allardyce as I did Bilic, knowing and appreciating their neither have been given the tools to reasonably expect survival. I don't like short termism, or fans expecting managers to keep over performing on shoe string budgets.

This season is a bad one, not just on the pitch but also in the stands, we used to be respected for being more knowledgable football fans than villa or wolves hot heads.

[boinging_along]

We played Ok tonight. We need to remember we will lose games but it's the manner of the defeats. That was a decent enough performance to suggest we will pick up results along the way.

Gibbs defending for the winner was Gibbs all over. The sooner Townsend is fit the better.

Gallagher is better central than out wide, I expect to see him moved inside next game when Snodgrass is back hopefully at the expense of Sawyers.

Gibbs is a miles better option than Townsend.

[boinging_along]

Bilic had around £40m, SA allegedly has less than £2m and the loan market.

Let’s see if Sam can address some of the issues your mate couldn’t with 5% of his budget.

That's a crazy way of looking at seeing that £40m was spent bringing in players to address other issues with the squad.

[baggie82]

That's a crazy way of looking at seeing that £40m was spent bringing in players to address other issues with the squad.

Yes and 2/3rds of it was just to retain Diangana (who Bilic preferred to wait for another loan deal on) and Pereira; only 1/3 of the budget even went on new players.

[baggiebof]

Interesting the contrast of views on last night, I thought we were ok but lost to a good side. Whilst West Ham didn't look swashbuckling I think they were deliberately cautious so they didn't get done on the break, I thought they always looked like they could ramp it up when they needed.

We are definitely looking more solid although we have conceded yet another two goals. I like Gibbs and think he is a better defender than he gets credit for however he is not a great back post defender and could do better on the second although it was an excellent cross. I wonder if going forward he'll be replaced by Townsend who i don't think is better than Gibbs but is actually good in the air, he is strong in this area for a full back. The way we are setup is likely to involve us defending lots of crosses into the box.

We are setting up in a narrow 4411 so as to not expose the centre backs too much and so the wide players can help out the central two off the ball. This works well as it allows Pereira to remain in dangerous positions. It's a Hodgson-esque setup really, full backs don't bomb on unless we have established possession with the two central midfielders remaining in there. Protects against the counter and allows for some possession if a little bit limited going forward at times.

I think you put Gallagher in the centre in place of Livermore and we improve very quickly. Of we can then supplement him with a better midfielder than Sawyers and we will look strong in there. We then need to add a striker and possible defender. Bartley has looked good the last couple of games, the system doesn't expose the cbs too much and relies on them having aerial prowess, which he has so it might suit him however he doesn't convince me. Others have concerns over Ajayi, as do I, however like I have said elsewhere he can and is improving and I think can be coached to improve. Either way we need reinforcements, I wouldn't want Furlong as a rb in this system so need O'Shea (or someone new) in there and I dont want to see Ivanovic at all so leaves us a little short.

Definitely something to build on, shame the next game is City and then Fulham, would have preferred it the other way around to carry on the momentum from the last two improved performances.

[LiamTheBaggie]

We were solid, organised and played some decent football in spells.

At least it gives us a fighting chance rather than getting battered every week

[skyclad99]

We were solid, organised and played some decent football in spells.

At least it gives us a fighting chance rather than getting battered every week

Agreed, thought we looked organised and solid last night, a definite improvement. For me still missing the bully in the box and a stronger midfield presence, but going in the right direction.

Bartley was pretty decent last night. 

[Hull Baggie]

Agreed, thought we looked organised and solid last night, a definite improvement. For me still missing the bully in the box and a stronger midfield presence, but going in the right direction.

Bartley was pretty decent last night.

We also created chances from open play which we weren't doing previously.

A decent forward that can score and also hold the ball up to allow other attacking players in, a real DM shielding the back 4 and I'd argue a Lb as Gibbs is poor and Townsend is injured (unless Townsend is due back or Gibbs can improve, maybe even another CH to give Ajayi a rest. But the forward and the Dm are the most important.

Bartley had another good game, shame Ajayi seems to be going backwards as a defender though.

[AlbionFan]

After reading some of the earlier posts on this thread, that were so disparaging about our performance, I though I'd watched a different game.

I thought there was more cohesion and organisation to the team, the shape looked better, at times we looked comfortable and confident on the ball and we created chances.

Disappointed with the result and, to be honest, I don't think West Ham could have had too many complaints had we come away with a draw, but encouraged by the performance that are improving as I always knew they would

[Atomic]

Gibbs is a miles better option than Townsend.

And yet the stats prove you wrong. I've lifted the text below from another site. These were the stats on 5th January:

Last season for a while he was the player with the lowest number of goals conceded per game when on the pitch, in the end it was Berardi of Leeds.

I know there are other things at play but also this season our number of goals conceded when he plays vs when he doesn't is really something to behold.

With Townsend:
Played 8 Conceded 10 Points 6

Without Townsend
Played 9 Conceded 29 Points 2

[skyclad99]

After reading some of the earlier posts on this thread, that were so disparaging about our performance, I though I'd watched a different game.

I thought there was more cohesion and organisation to the team, the shape looked better, at times we looked comfortable and confident on the ball and we created chances.

Disappointed with the result and, to be honest, I don't think West Ham could have had too many complaints had we come away with a draw, but encouraged by the performance that are improving as I always knew they would

I am the same as you Colin, thought we did pretty well and was going to be more than happy with a 1-1 which is where the game was heading but for the quick reactions of Antonio.

I seem to remember we were after him at one stage. Looks like he made the right choice going to WH - some player.

[johnny Cash]

It's easy to make transfer budgets sound impressive by adding up the payments due over the next 5 years. Paints an entirely misleading picture of course. We were last in the queue to get any players in as Dowling had to throw pennies at other clubs, with limited money upfront to get deals done. The budget approved by the board in the summer left our squad investment 20th out of 20 competitors - at the very bottom of the pack.

Can't complain with the effort tonight. Close defeats like these are almost worse than getting hammered (no pun intended). Team tried and played okay in spells but we're just too brittle when it mattered. Gibbs defending that cross like a child against a man summed it up.

Allardyce's record so far, is very similar to Bilic. The alarming decline when he took over, in which we went from bad to very bad has been arrested, although I am still concerned about our home form. I'll support Allardyce as I did Bilic, knowing and appreciating their neither have been given the tools to reasonably expect survival. I don't like short termism, or fans expecting managers to keep over performing on shoe string budgets.

This season is a bad one, not just on the pitch but also in the stands, we used to be respected for being more knowledgable football fans than villa or wolves hot heads.

Even easier to ask we spend money we haven’t got.

Whether money is new players or making loans permanent is irrelevant, we choose how we spend the money we have. If you loan a play and want to keep them you have to pay.

The regard in which you hold you own opinion is astonishing. 

[baggie82]

Even easier to ask we spend money we haven’t got.

Whether money is new players or making loans permanent is irrelevant, we choose how we spend the money we have. If you loan a play and want to keep them you have to pay.

The regard in which you hold you own opinion is astonishing.

We didn’t invest anywhere near enough to bring the squad up to the standard required and it’s not reasonable to expect managers to consistently over perform.

Kindly cut out the petty personal attack.

[Norfolk Baggie]

Taken time to reflect.  Overall I saw a lot of positives from the match. Grosicky played well, Pareira looked sharp and tricky.  Gallagher looked good as well.  O'Shea and Barley also had good games.  West Ham I thought played well, and now look like a top ten team.  As the commentator said last night, we do not really have any options off the bench, and our squad looks thin.  So a few new signings and we might have a very small chance, but it is not great.

[johnny Cash]

We didn’t invest anywhere near enough to bring the squad up to the standard required and it’s not reasonable to expect managers to consistently over perform.

Kindly cut out the petty personal attack.

If you didn’t make self righteous comments like the one below I wouldn’t need to call it.

“This season is a bad one, not just on the pitch but also in the stands, we used to be respected for being more knowledgable football fans than villa or wolves hot heads”

Your horse is no higher than anyone else’s.

[boinging_along]

The key thing is that we didn't waste ALL that money because a big chunk of it was spent on Pierera, Diangana and Grant.  If we didn't buy those we'd have had to buy some other players who were equally as good.  Would you feel better about going into the season knowing we'd turned down the chance to sign those players?  The other players came in for peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  I refuse to believe there's people out there thinking we shouldn't have signed Pierera and Diangana so the only question mark is Grant - and let's face it, we've not really been an attacking force this season so no surprise he's struggling.  His record was pretty good. 

I wouldn't have been happy to turn Pierara\Diangana down on the off chance the DM we buy instead is Premier League quality and helps us stay up.  If we'd not signed those 3 and instead signing a DM, CH and Keeper, but still relied on Phillips, Grosicki and HRK up top there'd be complaints now of "I can't believe we spent that money and didn't strengthen up top".  The issue wasn't WHO we bought, it was the amount of funds we had.  There simply wasn't enough to not have big weak spots in the squad.

Like I said, the issue with relying on loans is that when they work and they're great players then you don't own them.  You need to spend money just to get to where you were the previous season, let alone improving on that.  By rights Bilic should have had another season with these players and been able to improve the positions we're clearly weak in before tackling the Premier League.  We were the victims of our own success.

[LiamTheBaggie]

If you didn’t make self righteous comments like the one below I wouldn’t need to call it.

“This season is a bad one, not just on the pitch but also in the stands, we used to be respected for being more knowledgable football fans than villa or wolves hot heads”

Your horse is no higher than anyone else’s.

Can we stop the sniping at members please? Not needed in what has been a good debate.

[Hull Baggie]

The key thing is that we didn't waste ALL that money because a big chunk of it was spent on Pierera, Diangana and Grant.  If we didn't buy those we'd have had to buy some other players who were equally as good.  Would you feel better about going into the season knowing we'd turned down the chance to sign those players?  The other players came in for peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  I refuse to believe there's people out there thinking we shouldn't have signed Pierera and Diangana so the only question mark is Grant - and let's face it, we've not really been an attacking force this season so no surprise he's struggling.  His record was pretty good. 

I wouldn't have been happy to turn Pierara\Diangana down on the off chance the DM we buy instead is Premier League quality and helps us stay up.  If we'd not signed those 3 and instead signing a DM, CH and Keeper, but still relied on Phillips, Grosicki and HRK up top there'd be complaints now of "I can't believe we spent that money and didn't strengthen up top".  The issue wasn't WHO we bought, it was the amount of funds we had.  There simply wasn't enough to not have big weak spots in the squad.

Like I said, the issue with relying on loans is that when they work and they're great players then you don't own them.  You need to spend money just to get to where you were the previous season, let alone improving on that.  By rights Bilic should have had another season with these players and been able to improve the positions we're clearly weak in before tackling the Premier League.  We were the victims of our own success.

Pereira was always coming as we'd already agreed a deal. We didn't need Diangana but like most I was pleased when we got him in. Grant was the wrong kind of player as we already had Robinson to play in the same way, we needed someone who could hold the ball up and we still do.
We also didn't need Krovinovic once we'd got Gallagher. We needed a DM and again we still do.

It was obvious to most people on here where we needed to strengthen but Bilic didn't seem aware of that, hence why we are so unbalanced. Once we had achieved promotion we should have been looking to strengthen in the areas where we are weakest but we didn't we just got more of the same....and then played a series of formations that didn't work.

The players brought in over the Summer have meant we are very unbalanced

[NJS]

I thought we made a decent fist of it.  But Antonio beasted us and Creswell showed the value of a classy left back both in positioning and crossing.

I can't understand why BS didn't bring on Edwards instead of Furlong.  I know it meant that we could go to a back three but I think Edwards could have played wing back instead of Furlong.  For all those who seem to be knocking Edwards - remember Gnabry, coming on for the last ten minutes every now and then allows no development.