[Albionic]

Of course it's the passing. If he has a higher passing accuracy but loses possession more all that shows is he's making a considerably higher number of passes than Livermore. I dread to think how many times he'd have given it away from the same number of attempts.

So not remotely hypocritical if you apply critical thinking...

Thats your forte isn't it "critical" 

[Hull Baggie]

Of course it's the passing. If he has a higher passing accuracy but loses possession more all that shows is he's making a considerably higher number of passes than Livermore. I dread to think how many times he'd have given it away from the same number of attempts.

So not remotely hypocritical if you apply critical thinking...

 It is hypocritical as you have damned one player for giving the ball away but not another for giving it away more.

Passing isn't the only criteria used to decide "losing possession". So no, it isn't just about passing, being tackled and losing the ball would also be losing possession.

[Hull Baggie]

if you're a midfielder this system you're not there to play through the opposition.  From what i can see, Ismael doesn't want to play football in the middle third; he wants to get the ball forward to the front players or to win it back as quickly as possible.  This means the midfield is where the battle for possession takes place.  once the ball is won it's immediately propelled forward.  This results in our giving the ball away so frequently and the seemingly endless head tennis rallies. ALL our midfielders concede possession, it's the nature of Ismael's way of playing.  I don't know if there's a place for someone to put their foot on the ball and/or play defence splitting passes and/or play combinations through the opposition in this system.  There should be, but we haven't seen it yet.

I totally agree with you, my point was that Jacko was criticising one player for giving the ball away when another player had given it away more yet wasn't being criticised.

[Fritzl Palace]

I don't feel you need to see any stats to know that Livermore's passing is fairly atrocious.

He can be carried in this system, but we are crying out for him to be improved upon.

[SmethDan]

I totally agree with you, my point was that Jacko was criticising one player for giving the ball away when another player had given it away more yet wasn't being criticised.

Mowatt has an end product. Jake doesn't for the most part. Totally different players playing in a system requiring different kinds of intensity. One creates, one bullies.

Not much point trying to compare the two when their qualities complement each other. Both do a job but one could more easily be improved upon to enhance the team's end product. It isn't Mowatt.

[Hull Baggie]

I don't feel you need to see any stats to know that Livermore's passing is fairly atrocious.

He can be carried in this system, but we are crying out for him to be improved upon.

Mowatt has an end product. Jake doesn't for the most part. Totally different players playing in a system requiring different kinds of intensity. One creates, one bullies.

Not much point trying to compare the two when their qualities complement each other. Both do a job but one could more easily be improved upon to enhance the team's end product. It isn't Mowatt.

You both make very valid points but none of it is relevant to the fact that Jacko calls out Livermore for giving the ball away yet doesn't call out Mowatt for doing it more often. If you criticise a player using one criteria then you should also criticise another player for failing in the same criteria.

I'm not comparing the two, I know and have stated that Mowatt is a better all round player than Livermore. I'd love us to get an improvement on Livermore....and a few others.

[alex1]

Although ball winning is probably his strongest asset, he should be making more of a contribution to goals scored from his central midfield position. I can't remember many occasions where he picks out a through pass which puts someone through on goal. He also needs to offer more of a goal threat himself.  I will be gobsmacked if he gets anywhere near Mowatt's totals on both those counts this season. 

[baggie82]

Who in their right mind is comparing Jake's passing to Alex Mowatt? It's like comparing Dawn French to Margot Robbie.

Livermore's passing ranges between poor to terrible most of the time. Anyone watching him play should be able to spot that. Look at Mowatt assist for Robinson on his debut at Bournemouth, perfectly weighted pass whilst on the run past their defender for our equaliser. I don't remember Livermore ever doing that in an Albion top and he has 151 appearances.

[WBArgo]

Who in their right mind is comparing Jake's passing to Alex Mowatt? It's like comparing Dawn French to Margot Robbie.

Livermore's passing ranges between poor to terrible most of the time. Anyone watching him play should be able to spot that. Look at Mowatt assist for Robinson on his debut at Bournemouth, perfectly weighted pass whilst on the run past their defender for our equaliser. I don't remember Livermore ever doing that in an Albion top and he has 151 appearances.

Not a fan of the larger ladies then? 

[Hull Baggie]

Who in their right mind is comparing Jake's passing to Alex Mowatt? It's like comparing Dawn French to Margot Robbie.

Livermore's passing ranges between poor to terrible most of the time. Anyone watching him play should be able to spot that. Look at Mowatt assist for Robinson on his debut at Bournemouth, perfectly weighted pass whilst on the run past their defender for our equaliser. I don't remember Livermore ever doing that in an Albion top and he has 151 appearances.

nobody is comparing them.

[Evo_Baggies]

You both make very valid points but none of it is relevant to the fact that Jacko calls out Livermore for giving the ball away yet doesn't call out Mowatt for doing it more often. If you criticise a player using one criteria then you should also criticise another player for failing in the same criteria.

Depends on the type of pass for me, I see Livermore give the ball way a lot in positions where he should have easily made the pass (usually sideways) Mowatt does give it away but you can see he is always trying the more difficult pass, through balls, quick round the corners etc. I feel with those players you have to accept they will lose possession.

As for Dawn French, I'd rather have her in midfield than Jake some games

[boinging_along]

I've noticed that if Jake misplaces an easy pass the forum is instantly full of moans.  When other players misplace similar passes, or easier, it's not even mentioned. 

[alex1]

I've noticed that if Jake misplaces an easy pass the forum is instantly full of moans.  When other players misplace similar passes, or easier, it's not even mentioned.

I don't mind players misplacing passes too much if they can spot the killer through passes which split defences. Pereira's passes were often off the mark, but on the other  hand  he could spot potential goal scoring openings for others. He also could weight passes well. With Jake, his forward passes are too imprecise. The sideways ones don't usually get us further, so when they get misplaced its even more irritating. 

[Dorrans17]

Not one for knocking players, but the amount of times he had space on the ball, and the first thing that comes into his head is smash it up the park.

Very frustrating, especially when our goal came from a bit of composure from Furlong in the middle of the park.

We really are crying out for another technical player with Mowatt.

[iwastherein68]

Better than Mowatt last night without a doubt

[Albionic]

Better than Mowatt last night without a doubt

Agreed, in impressed with mowatt  last night

[Webby]

Part of the crew that saved the fan from a steward too. Lot of time for that

[boinging_along]

Not one for knocking players, but the amount of times he had space on the ball, and the first thing that comes into his head is smash it up the park.

Very frustrating, especially when our goal came from a bit of composure from Furlong in the middle of the park.

We really are crying out for another technical player with Mowatt.

Every player does that, it's clearly under instruction.

[Dorrans17]

Every player does that, it's clearly under instruction.

I understand a more direct approach has taken priority, when a Centre Halve pings it forward  I get it. When you receive the ball in the centre of the park with no opposition within 15 yards of you, a pass should be picked.

Not slating Jake every players has there pros & cons.

[zippyandbungle]

Part of the crew that saved the fan from a steward too. Lot of time for that

Yep…whilst effort should be mandatory, he always puts a shift in….gives a **** and has actually shown some good leadership …
He probably knows he’s not the best technically , and I would improve on him, but he at least gives his best effort and not all “pro” footballers can say that ?

[brummyroader]

Part of the crew that saved the fan from a steward too. Lot of time for that

What happened mate? The fan that ran on?

[KN22]

Better than Mowatt last night without a doubt

Agreed. He did his job last night and, I am sure, that is what Val would say about his display.

[boinging_along]

I understand a more direct approach has taken priority, when a Centre Halve pings it forward  I get it. When you receive the ball in the centre of the park with no opposition within 15 yards of you, a pass should be picked.

Not slating Jake every players has there pros & cons.

Yeah, I agree, my point was that every player does it, not just Jake yet here we are in a Livermore thread.  We can hardly have a go at players who are obeying the manager's instructions.

[festerp]

nobody is comparing them.

The real comparison is who grows a better set of sideburns.  Jake looks to win that point.

[Baltic]

I think Jake is doing a decent job for the side.  He's doing as instructed and at this level is still an asset.  He's also been there in good and bad times with over 150 appearances so that deserves some appreciation and respect. 

As stated by many, Mowett is a different type of player and is a more talented all round footballer.  Maybe the £10m more we paid for Livermore colours opinion, but at the moment they are doing a decent job.