[iwastherein68]

Don't fall over yourselves lads, to give credit where due.

[Hull Baggie]

Don't fall over yourselves lads, to give credit where due.

Think I've given a fair assessment of Jake Livermore.

[iwastherein68]

I day say he is a Premier League player now or next season . I think that most of the current squad have been assessed as not of Premier league standard.
We ay in the Premier League, but the whole "first eleven" is doing very nicely thank you in the Championship. If we achieve promotion we may find that some of our players may have developed into Premier League enabled players, but Jake ay one of them an he wo be on his own
He is presently good enough to play in any team in this division.

[TheJacko2000]

Dear me,  he puts in 1 good tackle where 99% of us expected him to get sent off and we get these demands for "credit" 

Like your style 68.

For what it's worth I think he's been below average standard for the division in the matches so far, constantly gives the ball away still. Statue-like on a couple of goals we've conceded and his big deficiencies are being covered by the excellent Alex Mowatt who actually deserves our effusive praise.

[Hull Baggie]

Dear me,  he puts in 1 good tackle where 99% of us expected him to get sent off and we get these demands for "credit" 

Like your style 68.

For what it's worth I think he's been below average standard for the division in the matches so far, constantly gives the ball away still. Statue-like on a couple of goals we've conceded and his big deficiencies are being covered by the excellent Alex Mowatt who actually deserves our effusive praise.

According to sofascore stats Livermore has lost possession 51 times in the 4 league games so far, Mowatt has lost possession 84 times in the same 4 games. Only against Sheff Utd did Livermore give away more possession than Mowatt (15 times as opposed to 10.)

www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-bournemouth/iskb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-luton-town/isxb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-sheffield-united/isp

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-blackburn-rovers/isW

Mowatt has had an overall greater effect for us than Livermore but as far as giving away possession he's much worse.

[TheJacko2000]

According to sofascore stats Livermore has lost possession 51 times in the 4 league games so far, Mowatt has lost possession 84 times in the same 4 games. Only against Sheff Utd did Livermore give away more possession than Mowatt (15 times as opposed to 10.)

www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-bournemouth/iskb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-luton-town/isxb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-sheffield-united/isp

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-blackburn-rovers/isW

Mowatt has had an overall greater effect for us than Livermore but as far as giving away possession he's much worse.

It's the nature of the passes they're trying to make. Thanks for putting in the time to put that together though.

[GREGMT]

The issue with Livermore is that we paid £11m for his services. The majority of WBA singings in last 20 yrs have been sensational, which has given rise to multiple Greed League seasons.

Just a selection -

Koren FREE
Olsson £850K
McAuley FREE
Gera £1.5m
Mulumbu £100K
Pereira £8.5m
Koumas £2.5m
Clement £100K
Robinson P £450K
Odemwingie £1.5m

Livermore doesn't scream VFM at £11m, all we are getting now is longevity.

At least he's not as bad as Burke, who is the worst signing in our history by a million miles 

[Albionic]

The issue with Livermore is that we paid £11m for his services. The majority of WBA singings in last 20 yrs have been sensational, which has given rise to multiple Greed League seasons.

Just a selection -

Koren FREE
Olsson £850K
McAuley FREE
Gera £1.5m
Mulumbu £100K
Pereira £8.5m
Koumas £2.5m
Clement £100K
Robinson P £450K
Odemwingie £1.5m

Livermore doesn't scream VFM at £11m, all we are getting now is longevity.

At least he's not as bad as Burke, who is the worst signing in our history by a million miles 

Nacer Chadli ?

[GREGMT]

Nacer Chadli ?

Just looked this up -

Chadli £13m, 36 apps, 6 goals, sold for around £10m.

Burke £15m, 20 apps, 0 goals.

There's no comparison, Chadli was x3 better.

[johnny Cash]

The issue with Livermore is that we paid £11m for his services. The majority of WBA singings in last 20 yrs have been sensational, which has given rise to multiple Greed League seasons.

Just a selection -

Koren FREE
Olsson £850K
McAuley FREE
Gera £1.5m
Mulumbu £100K
Pereira £8.5m
Koumas £2.5m
Clement £100K
Robinson P £450K
Odemwingie £1.5m

Livermore doesn't scream VFM at £11m, all we are getting now is longevity.

At least he's not as bad as Burke, who is the worst signing in our history by a million miles 

I suspect most clubs could pick out 10 good deals in 20 years. We have probably signed 100 players in that time. I’m not sure 1 in 10 is enough to call our business sensational.

Our big money signings have been poor in the main. Sessegnon, Ideye, Chadli, Burke, Zohore, Anichebe, Grant (to date), Livermore, Chester, Mcmanaman, Valero, Zheng. That’s 12 of our top 20 biggest fees according to Transfermarkt that have not provided value.  That’s far too many.  When we do get one (Pereira) we let him go far too easily.

[GREGMT]

I suspect most clubs could pick out 10 good deals in 20 years. We have probably signed 100 players in that time. I’m not sure 1 in 10 is enough to call our business sensational.

Our big money signings have been poor in the main. Sessegnon, Ideye, Chadli, Burke, Zohore, Anichebe, Grant (to date), Livermore, Chester, Mcmanaman, Valero, Zheng. That’s 12 of our top 20 biggest fees according to Transfermarkt that have not provided value.  That’s far too many.  When we do get one (Pereira) we let him go far too easily.

I could name a long list of other superb VFM signings, the 10 I gave scratched the surface -

Hughes £250K
McInnes £400K
Balis £150K
Fox £200K
Kilbane £1m
Maresca NOMINAL
Morrison £1.5m
Brunt £3m
Dobie £150K
Yacob £150K

Surely we have got a lot more right than wrong?

[iwastherein68]

I day ask for all this .................just be nice to Jake. I am fully aware he ay as good as Mowatt, an I dow remember sayin he was.

[SmethDan]

Think he's had a reasonable start to the season all be it alongside a very accomplished player at this level. Whilst fully acknowledging Jake's no world beater I feel he's contributing more than some would suggest.

[KN22]

Think he's had a reasonable start to the season all be it alongside a very accomplished player at this level. Whilst fully acknowledging Jake's no world beater I feel he's contributing more than some would suggest.

A well balanced view. He’s made a solid start and fully deserves to be a first choice starter at present. More than capable at this level.

[Hull Baggie]

It's the nature of the passes they're trying to make. Thanks for putting in the time to put that together though.

Mowatt's passing accuracy is higher than Livermore so I don't think it's the passing, Livermore makes more clearances than Mowatt which you'd expect to go to the opposition yet he loses possession a lot less than Mowatt. There are many reasons why a player loses possession but the fact is Livermore hasn't lost possession as much as Mowatt.

My point is if you are going to make a comment like "he gives the ball away too much" as a means of criticising him then it's hypocritical to then not also criticise a player that has given the ball away many more times.

[wbastrollers]

Mowatt's passing accuracy is higher than Livermore so I don't think it's the passing, Livermore makes more clearances than Mowatt which you'd expect to go to the opposition yet he loses possession a lot less than Mowatt. There are many reasons why a player loses possession but the fact is Livermore hasn't lost possession as much as Mowatt.

My point is if you are going to make a comment like "he gives the ball away too much" as a means of criticising him then it's hypocritical to then not also criticise a player that has given the ball away many more times.

Well done, Hull!!
When you are into a hate campaign - don’t let facts get in the way, of your obsession.
Sam, Jake, move on to another victim- I’m sure there are others in the pipeline.

[boinging_along]

The issue with Livermore is that we paid £11m for his services. The majority of WBA singings in last 20 yrs have been sensational, which has given rise to multiple Greed League seasons.

Just a selection -

Koren FREE
Olsson £850K
McAuley FREE
Gera £1.5m
Mulumbu £100K
Pereira £8.5m
Koumas £2.5m
Clement £100K
Robinson P £450K
Odemwingie £1.5m

Livermore doesn't scream VFM at £11m, all we are getting now is longevity.

At least he's not as bad as Burke, who is the worst signing in our history by a million miles 

I really don't think the "majority" of our signings have been sensational.  In 10 years we have signed a lot of very very poor players far outweighing the list you've got there.  All you've done there is list the players who turned out to be good signings - and considering the majority of them came from a time when our average spend was low, and the average transfer fees were a lot lower it's no surprise the fees would look a lot better.  I bet you would get the same with pretty much any other club.

If it was that easy to sign players like Mulumbu for £100k then clubs would be doing that all over the place.  Those gems are really hard to find, which is why in 20 years you've picked out 10 players in 100+ signings.

[Hull Baggie]

Can we stick to discussing Jake Livermore in this thread please. Our transfers over the last 10 or so years years should be discussed elsewhere.

[Dan87uk]

Has been excellent in the first 4 games of the season, formed a good partnership with Mowatt, and looks as fit as anyone in the squad.
In the "incoming transfer" topics, always references to "need to improve on Livermore",
well i have news for those of that particular persuasion, with our miserly budget,
it ay gunna appen.
Keep it up Captain Fantastico 

Not sure what games you've been watching, still the weakest link in the chain for me, the amount of times Mowatt is battling against 2 players in the middle with Livermore nowhere to be seen is frustrating.

1 luckily well timed desperate lunge against Blackburn doesnt make the rest of his performances any better.

[iwastherein68]

Not sure what games you've been watching, still the weakest link in the chain for me, the amount of times Mowatt is battling against 2 players in the middle with Livermore nowhere to be seen is frustrating.

1 luckily well timed desperate lunge against Blackburn doesnt make the rest of his performances any better.

Been to all four mate, and watched every minute. One thing for sure if you don't watch live, then whilst you do have immediate access to action replays, with this particular style of football, you are generally following the ball, and do not see all of the tremendous effort being put in "off camera". As for the "1 luckily well timed desperate lunge" comment I truly despair. Never mind I'm sure Jake appreciated the "Captain Fantastico" rendition from the fans.

[Dan87uk]

Have also been to the games mate and I did not join in with the captain fantastico nonsense - the moment a new midfielder comes in, Livermore is the first one out of the starting XI IMO - just depends if he has sucked up to the manager enough in the meantime on whether it's an immediate swap from Val's point of view.

[iwastherein68]

Have also been to the games mate and I did not join in with the captain fantastico nonsense - the moment a new midfielder comes in, Livermore is the first one out of the starting XI IMO - just depends if he has sucked up to the manager enough in the meantime on whether it's an immediate swap from Val's point of view.

So any midfielder over Jake ? provided Jake hasn't "sucked up" to VI ? I think this manager is a bit more scientific than that.
We won't be signing any big name on our meagre budget in my opinion.

[Ronnie Allen]

According to sofascore stats Livermore has lost possession 51 times in the 4 league games so far, Mowatt has lost possession 84 times in the same 4 games. Only against Sheff Utd did Livermore give away more possession than Mowatt (15 times as opposed to 10.)

www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-bournemouth/iskb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-luton-town/isxb

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-sheffield-united/isp

https://www.sofascore.com/west-bromwich-albion-blackburn-rovers/isW

Mowatt has had an overall greater effect for us than Livermore but as far as giving away possession he's much worse.

if you're a midfielder this system you're not there to play through the opposition.  From what i can see, Ismael doesn't want to play football in the middle third; he wants to get the ball forward to the front players or to win it back as quickly as possible.  This means the midfield is where the battle for possession takes place.  once the ball is won it's immediately propelled forward.  This results in our giving the ball away so frequently and the seemingly endless head tennis rallies. ALL our midfielders concede possession, it's the nature of Ismael's way of playing.  I don't know if there's a place for someone to put their foot on the ball and/or play defence splitting passes and/or play combinations through the opposition in this system.  There should be, but we haven't seen it yet.

[LiamTheBaggie]

if you're a midfielder this system you're not there to play through the opposition.  From what i can see, Ismael doesn't want to play football in the middle third; he wants to get the ball forward to the front players or to win it back as quickly as possible.  This means the midfield is where the battle for possession takes place.  once the ball is won it's immediately propelled forward.  This results in our giving the ball away so frequently and the seemingly endless head tennis rallies. ALL our midfielders concede possession, it's the nature of Ismael's way of playing.  I don't know if there's a place for someone to put their foot on the ball and/or play defence splitting passes and/or play combinations through the opposition in this system.  There should be, but we haven't seen it yet.

I think as pointed out above that this current system certainly suits Livermore as it does mask some of his poorer qualities.

Our game is very much aggressively pressing the positon and playing in the right areas, some percentage football if you wish - on that basis he looks fitter than previous seasons and he can get around the pitch more and isn't required to play through the opposition.

That's not knocking his efforts this season - he, like the others have slotted very well into the system - the real benefit is having a very good technically Alex Mowatt next to him.

If our system relied on playing through the midfield lines and had a more possession based outlook then we'd certainly be requiring an upgrade - but he should be able to carry us through this season.

[TheJacko2000]

Mowatt's passing accuracy is higher than Livermore so I don't think it's the passing, Livermore makes more clearances than Mowatt which you'd expect to go to the opposition yet he loses possession a lot less than Mowatt. There are many reasons why a player loses possession but the fact is Livermore hasn't lost possession as much as Mowatt.

My point is if you are going to make a comment like "he gives the ball away too much" as a means of criticising him then it's hypocritical to then not also criticise a player that has given the ball away many more times.

Of course it's the passing. If he has a higher passing accuracy but loses possession more all that shows is he's making a considerably higher number of passes than Livermore. I dread to think how many times he'd have given it away from the same number of attempts.

So not remotely hypocritical if you apply critical thinking...