[miggybaggy]

Please forgive my ignorance....what does it mean? I cant see it clearly when I click the link. Does it illustrate his utter inability?

[hardtobeat]

I think if I see Livermore start Sunday Im going to lose it

I strongly suspect , having heard Allardyce today you may need to find a darkened room !!

[WorcsWBA]

Jesus Wept:

https://twitter.com/SteMc74/status/1357385866109460481?s=19

You have to wonder why Bilic and Allardyce have been so obsessed with selecting him, because it's not for his captaincy or tackling skills either....

[Mikkyk]

Please forgive my ignorance....what does it mean? I cant see it clearly when I click the link. Does it illustrate his utter inability?

In short, yes.

He is by far the worst midfielder at passing according to the graph.

The worst thing is the line to the left of the y-axis is considerably longer than it is to the right as they've had to make it so much bigger just to fit him on.

[MarkW]

In short, yes.

He is by far the worst midfielder at passing according to the graph.

The worst thing is the line to the left of the y-axis is considerably longer than it is to the right as they've had to make it so much bigger just to fit him on.

To add to this, Jake is the Bad Ball Retention, takes risks quadrant.

His passing efficiency is much lower than any other player listed, meaning he doesn't connect on the passes that an average player does. This uses an "expected pass" metric, so I guess we're ok using expected Goals now, too.

Looking at the players in his quadrant, they are attack players - Bruno Fernandes, Harvey Barnes, Kevin De Bruyne...you get the idea. The players are colour coded by their expected assists - because these players are attacking, they generally have high xA values, but not Jake. He is at the bottom end of the scale.

So Jake underperforms Vs the expected pass model, his ball retention is low, and he doesn't make passes that would get assists

[Albionic]

To add to this, Jake is the Bad Ball Retention, takes risks quadrant.

His passing efficiency is much lower than any other player listed, meaning he doesn't connect on the passes that an average player does. This uses an "expected pass" metric, so I guess we're ok using expected Goals now, too.

Looking at the players in his quadrant, they are attack players - Bruno Fernandes, Harvey Barnes, Kevin De Bruyne...you get the idea. The players are colour coded by their expected assists - because these players are attacking, they generally have high xA values, but not Jake. He is at the bottom end of the scale.

So Jake underperforms Vs the expected pass model, his ball retention is low, and he doesn't make passes that would get assists

Being a bit picky aren't you?

[MarkW]

Being a bit picky aren't you?

No, I'm staying what the graph shows.

[Albionic]

No, I'm staying what the graph shows.

I was being sarcastic !

[Baggies]

I've long had the belief that Livermore benefits from "pedigree bias". What I mean by that totally made up phrase is that he has been able to trade on his background as a promising big 6 club academy product and that has helped him stay in or around the premier league for so long.

He got England caps because he was at Spurs, had made a couple of appearances and we were short of deep lying English midfielders. The fact Spurs sent him to Hull City less than 12 months after his international debut tells it's own story.

He continued to get England caps when playing for us despite putting in poor performances and that "pedigree" as an England international from Spurs academy seems to have convinced a ton of managers that he is a high quality option.

This is despite the fact he doesn't particularly shield a defence very well and doesn't bring much in the way of an attacking threat either. The defence seems to be he is a "box to box" midfielder but he has been immobile for most of his time here.

[TheJacko2000]

To add to this, Jake is the Bad Ball Retention, takes risks quadrant.

His passing efficiency is much lower than any other player listed, meaning he doesn't connect on the passes that an average player does. This uses an "expected pass" metric, so I guess we're ok using expected Goals now, too.

Looking at the players in his quadrant, they are attack players - Bruno Fernandes, Harvey Barnes, Kevin De Bruyne...you get the idea. The players are colour coded by their expected assists - because these players are attacking, they generally have high xA values, but not Jake. He is at the bottom end of the scale.

So Jake underperforms Vs the expected pass model, his ball retention is low, and he doesn't make passes that would get assists

Would be more akin to xShots surely?

[LiamTheBaggie]

Please no. However, somehow please let Sawyers and Livermore move on, don't care how or why.

The thought of these two in midfield next season is sickening.

I’m with you. Unfortunately both are under contract and there will be no queue of suitors to take them

[Standaman]

I've long had the belief that Livermore benefits from "pedigree bias". What I mean by that totally made up phrase is that he has been able to trade on his background as a promising big 6 club academy product and that has helped him stay in or around the premier league for so long.

He got England caps because he was at Spurs, had made a couple of appearances and we were short of deep lying English midfielders. The fact Spurs sent him to Hull City less than 12 months after his international debut tells it's own story.

He continued to get England caps when playing for us despite putting in poor performances and that "pedigree" as an England international from Spurs academy seems to have convinced a ton of managers that he is a high quality option.

This is despite the fact he doesn't particularly shield a defence very well and doesn't bring much in the way of an attacking threat either. The defence seems to be he is a "box to box" midfielder but he has been immobile for most of his time here.

I think this is a thing and it would go a long way to explaining how Ravel Morrison keeps getting contracts. I would add that international caps particularly for one of the more high profile international teams probably reinforces it.

I also think there is reputational bias where a player was very good at one point in their career but that point has long since passed often because of injury but subsequent clubs hire them in the hope they somehow recapture the form of 2 or more seasons ago (generally they don't)

I would also throw in golden season syndrome into the mix. This is where a player has a very good season often quite early in their career and then spends the next 5 to 10 years trading off it. Take a bow Mr Benteke.

Returning to the case at hand. I think Livermore has also benefited from at least one very good season with Hull which was enough along with the caps and the "pedigree bias" to sustain a career here it might of tempted a buyer at one point but probably not now.

[Oldbury24]

I’m with you. Unfortunately both are under contract and there will be no queue of suitors to take them

Sawyer's in the Champ is fine, infact I'm sure he will be very effective in the right set up with more dynamic players around him but I really don't want another year of Jake thank you... regardless.   Good servant, promotion winning captain etc but just enough.   

A team in the Champ with limited expectations and need of an experienced "leader" would surely be intetested??

[seteefeet]

I've long had the belief that Livermore benefits from "pedigree bias". What I mean by that totally made up phrase is that he has been able to trade on his background as a promising big 6 club academy product and that has helped him stay in or around the premier league for so long.

He got England caps because he was at Spurs, had made a couple of appearances and we were short of deep lying English midfielders. The fact Spurs sent him to Hull City less than 12 months after his international debut tells it's own story.

He continued to get England caps when playing for us despite putting in poor performances and that "pedigree" as an England international from Spurs academy seems to have convinced a ton of managers that he is a high quality option.

This is despite the fact he doesn't particularly shield a defence very well and doesn't bring much in the way of an attacking threat either. The defence seems to be he is a "box to box" midfielder but he has been immobile for most of his time here.

Great point mate and 100% true, you've only got to listen to commentators and pundits.
Dion Dublin was very good when he did our game against Fulham but, at one point he was waxing lyrical about Livermore "He'll know what's required in a situation like this", "He'll take the game by the scruff of the neck", "He's a natural leader", "He'll get on the ball and make things happen" that sort of stuff and I was thinking, "Have you seen him play in the last 5 years Dion?"

Let's hope there's a Championship manager, that's not ours,  that's just as naive come May

[LiamTheBaggie]

Sawyer's in the Champ is fine, infact I'm sure he will be very effective in the right set up with more dynamic players around him but I really don't want another year of Jake thank you... regardless.   Good servant, promotion winning captain etc but just enough.   

A team in the Champ with limited expectations and need of an experienced "leader" would surely be intetested??

He's technically fine for the division but he has to played further forward and if we're going to keep hold of Pereira then we don't really much room for him.

One thing that we should not do is have the idea of Sawyers protecting a back four with Jake Livermore next to him. They were both exposed in the Championship last season and contributed towards a side that did not defend well.

I would certainly look for an upgrade on Livermore. Harrison Reed is the obvious choice should he be available. Better in every department than Livermore.

[paulosull]

To add to this, Jake is the Bad Ball Retention, takes risks quadrant.

His passing efficiency is much lower than any other player listed, meaning he doesn't connect on the passes that an average player does. This uses an "expected pass" metric, so I guess we're ok using expected Goals now, too.

Looking at the players in his quadrant, they are attack players - Bruno Fernandes, Harvey Barnes, Kevin De Bruyne...you get the idea. The players are colour coded by their expected assists - because these players are attacking, they generally have high xA values, but not Jake. He is at the bottom end of the scale.

So Jake underperforms Vs the expected pass model, his ball retention is low, and he doesn't make passes that would get assists

any chance these stats could be sent to Allardyce as he can't see what's in front of him on match day.

[JMullen95]

Almost cost us the game with that pathetic pass today.

[gazberg]

Looks physically shot and that's all he's brought to us. Have to try and move him on although slim chance of anyone being that daft.

[lewisant]

I hate seeing him on the pitch. He's such a poor footballer. As somebody else said, he turned a 3 on 2 opportunity to win it almost into defeat when he couldn't hit a 10 yard pass.

[paulosull]

Usually like playing with ten men when he's on pitch but today he played with a red man ure top on under the blue and white stripes. Allardyce has got a problem with players he brings off the bench especially the midfield cover. They are just not good enough.

[GREGMT]

The extra protection from the midfield is there for all to see now.

I highlighted this as far back as last season.  It's amazing how better the defence now plays!

Say thanks to Jake for his service and get rid at the end of the season for about £300,000, because that's all he's worth.

[seteefeet]

The extra protection from the midfield is there for all to see now.

I highlighted this as far back as last season.  It's amazing how better the defence now plays!

Say thanks to Jake for his service and get rid at the end of the season for about £300,000, because that's all he's worth.

Don't get me wrong, if it was my money, I would think you had dramatically over valued but, there will be plenty of suckers willing to pay far more for an ex England international! He's got Forest or Wayne Rooney's Derby written all over him. Hopefully.

[WBArgo]

Don't get me wrong, if it was my money, I would think you had dramatically over valued but, there will be plenty of suckers willing to pay far more for an ex England international! He's got Forest or Wayne Rooney's Derby written all over him. Hopefully.

I'm not so sure, isn't he on about £50k p/w? I don't think the transfer would be the issue, but the wages would be for most Championship clubs. There's no reason from his perspective to move at this stage in his career, he may as well stay until he's 33.

Today I thought he did ok, but that pass at the end was awful. He's always been poor at contributing to counter attacks and instead of attacking it put us in trouble.

[gazberg]

Hes on around 40-45k pw in the PL so 20-22.5k per week in the EFL.

If someone wants him then sell him on a nominal.

[Droitwich Baggie]

Old man/ old school