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West Bromwich Albion FC Forums => West Bromwich Albion FC => Topic started by: OllieTheBaggie on March 10, 2018, 05:57:10 PM
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I went into the game today full of doom and gloom, I left feeling strangely comforted. In the last 10 minutes, the fans were noisy, even through Leicester's 4th goal celebrations. At the end, Brunty, Foster, Field, Rondon and couple of others came round, Sam Field subtly patted his badge, Brunty was hurt but you could tell was touched by his support, the fans banded together. It felt like even though it was the first time that everyone achknowledged our probable fate, it was also comforting to see a core of good honest players in this disaster of a season. Players who play for the badge are the Albion spirit, the fans who never give up are the Albion spirit.
We are down unofficially now, we must now start building for the future to get ourselves back up. We need a total overhaul in most areas, senior management downwards.
In my opinion we should definitely keep (if possible);
Rondon, Brunt, Field, Dawson, Foster, Hegazi, Burke
Maybe keep;
Phillips, Chadli, Gibbs, Nyom, McClean, Yacob, J Rod
Get rid of;
Every other player.
Who would you like to see our new manager keep/maybe keep/get rid?
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more worried if we keep majority of squad that league one is where this lot will take us, get rid of the lot if today is anything to go by but keep Ben.
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I went into the game today full of doom and gloom, I left feeling strangely optimistic. In the last 10 minutes, myself and hundreds of other fans chanted "We're the Albion" over and over, even through Leicester's 4th goal celebrations. At the end, Brunty, Foster, Field and the real Albion players came round, Sam Field subtly patted his badge towards us to a rapturous applause, Brunty was hurt but you could tell was touched by his support, the fans banded together. It felt like a calm moment of warming sunshine poking out through the thunderstorm that has been this season. This was the Albion spirit, this is why I love this club, this is what football is all about.
We are down unofficially now, we must now start building for the future to get ourselves back up. We need a total overhaul in most areas, senior management downwards.
In my opinion we should definitely keep (if possible);
Rondon, Brunt, Field, Dawson, Foster, Hegazi, Burke
Maybe keep;
Phillips, Chadli, Gibbs, Nyom, McClean, Yacob, J Rod
Get rid of;
Every other player.
Who would you like to see our new manager keep/maybe keep/get rid?
Try to Keep;
Rondon, Brunt, Field, Dawson, Foster, Hegazi, Burke
Maybe keep;
Yacob, J Rod
Get rid of;
The rest - With the walking disgrace that is Barry being first out the door followed by the almost equally despicable Evans.
Manager:
Anyone not in the "old boys club" on the standard merry go round - Still gutted we missed a chance at getting Graham Potter from Östersunds naughty word when we had the chance after Pulis was sacked - probably won't be able to get him now.
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Struggling for optimism at the moment. The last time we were relegated, there was a buzz still being generated around the place. Mulumbu and Dorrans were just breaking through and they looked great, and we were still playing good football. There were signs from management as well that they knew what they were doing, with Ashworth starting to find good players for low prices.
There is none of that now. The manager is a dead man walking, who appeared to ask to be sacked in his press conference post game, no full time chairman and a director of football who looks on the face of it like a lame duck, another poor Peace appointment.
There are also very gew sings of life in the team. The likes of Brunt and Morrison were quite young when we went down last time, now they are only a few years away from retirement. We will lose a number of players, such as Evans, Krychowiack, probably Barry, possibly Gibbs, with us also potentially seeing someone like Hegazi or Dawson come in for interest.
There is a very real danger if we don't get things right in the summer that we could nosedive. It has happened to Sunderland this season and in the past it has hit the likes of Sheffield Utd, Wigan, Hull, Wolves and Man City.
The only positive is the fans.
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I think this E&S blog got it spot on
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2018/03/10/west-brom-blog-big-clearout-needed-next-season/
Out:
Gareth McAuley
Allan Nyom
Jake Livermore
Gareth Barry
Claudio Yacob
James McClean
Matt Phillips
Hal Robson-Kanu
Salomon Rondon
Johnny Evans
Nacer Chadli
Gregor Krychowiak
Daniel Sturridge
Keep and build a team around:
Ben Foster
Craig Dawson
Ahmed Hegazi
Chris Brunt
James Morrison
Sam Field
Oliver Burke
Jonathan Leko
Jay Rodriguez
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Morrison's injury record was dodgy even before this season and he surely has to be at the end of his time with us now. We shouldn't be offering new contracts to 32 year olds who are rarely fit.
Sign at least one and preferable two bright youngish attacking midfielders.
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I have a big concern with Foster in the Championship, its well stated that his training has to be managed due to his injuries and I am concern training with two games reguarly a week will be too much.
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We need some Championship know how and Morrison (as well as Brunt) will provide that.
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We need some Championship know how and Morrison (as well as Brunt) will provide that.
It's not current know how though is it as they haven't played in it for 8 years. We need younger legs and energy as well as ability in our squad.
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We need some Championship know how and Morrison (as well as Brunt) will provide that.
Talk about a club going backwards.
Loved Brunt and Morrison over the years but they ain't the future and have done nothing for us this season or the end of last.
Brunty was shocking again today.
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I wouldn't quibble with the E&S list except Morrison my iron rule of thumb if a player doesn't make 15 appearances in a season once they are past 30 don't sign them or offer them a new contract, they go off real quick there are exceptions but for everyone there is there are 5 that prove me right.
With regard to experience or know how I'd take technical and athletic ability over it anytime.
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Get rid of anyone over 30 then move forward with younger legs, would be a great start.
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We need some Championship know how and Morrison (as well as Brunt) will provide that.
Robson-Kanu has more recent Championship know-how than both of them, sooner he goes the better.
Since Brunt waved his arms around after the Huddersfield game and had a rant he's done nothing in the 2 games he's played, yes he's massively out of position but done nothing and Morrison who unfortunately could be done through injury has done nothing noteworthy for far too long to justify a new deal
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I think the club is in desperate need of identity, and whilst it may be easy to suggest we brush aside everyone who we think isn't up to it, there maybe just some value in having Brunt and/or Morrison on the periphery of the first team next season.
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It's not current know how though is it as they haven't played in it for 8 years. We need younger legs and energy as well as ability in our squad.
I agree with you. But that doesn’t mean you can’t have a few experienced players.
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Exactly my thoughts in my selection. Keep the players who are more committed, start blooding in some new players and young talent around them, and then when they come to retire in a couple of years we have some players to continue the long-term players' legacy. Sam Field is a player who i think will stay here for many years if we look after him properly, he and any other promising youngsters should be getting blooded into the first team regularly now. It's easy to say scrap all 25 players and start fresh, but it'll be incredibly hard to replace people like Brunt who bleed blue and white and love the club, even if they're not the best player in the word (I think Brunty still offers a lot but others don't), his influence enough is reason to keep him on board.
I said another thread Brunt should be club captain next year.
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I said another thread Brunt should be club captain next year.
I think he already is Club Captain just not the Captain on the pitch, sure I saw it somewhere a while ago.
If still here i'd give the Captaincy to Dawson next season personally.
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We absolutely need
A new midfield
A new strike force
Players with character and fight for a long physical season
Apart from that we're fine!
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I think because we are all but relegated already, we have an advantage in that we already know which players are unsuited for the Championship, but we have some players who are ideal for it, Nyom, Dawson (if he stays), Brunt knows the division, Livermore is not good enough for the Premier League but would be fine in the Championship, Field will thrive with more game time, Foster will stay and do a good job.
We need some suitable additions, but given some decent signings and a competent coach, I think we can at least make the playoffs.
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For all Brunt's qualities his two best games of late have both been 20 minute cameos from the bench. I would be surprised if he plays more than two thirds of the games in the championship because of the physical demands, but he needs to stay none the less. Morrison though has to go because we'd be very lucky to get more than half a season from him....we just have to revamp and can't afford to bank on both of them in our midfield.
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total clear out to have any chance of getting out of this league, new coach and players with pace all over park.
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How much cash will we be likely to generate from player sales this summer? My fear is that we will play our usual delaying game and sell really late leaving us little time to assemble a new squad.
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How much cash will we be likely to generate from player sales this summer? My fear is that we will play our usual delaying game and sell really late leaving us little time to assemble a new squad.
There are 4 players with release clauses one of whom is Evans for an absolutely give away price of £3m. Who the other 3 are it is unknown but they are likely to be players signed after Evans. The problem is twofold firstly if the Evans fee is anything to go by they will go for a song we will lose £50m of talent for maybe £20m. The second problem is we have zero control of when another club chooses to trigger the release clause could be anytime during the window if we want to do a deal early we won't even get the release clause price.
The idiot who agreed to these clauses should be sacked if they haven't been already.
While I don't know who these players are they are likely to be 3 of our most salable assets. Most would guess that they include Chadli and Gibbs it then is a toss up between Livermore,Rondon and Rodriguez as to who the other is.
Generating funds from the rest or least ways the players we would want to sell i.e. McClean, Phillips Robson-Kanu and Nyom requires buyers and well good luck with that.
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I thought it was 3 with release clauses. Evans chadli and dawson
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I thought it was 3 with release clauses. Evans chadli and dawson
I have only been able to find Evans + 3 unnamed players reported anywhere it would be good to know exactly who the players concerned were.
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I have only been able to find Evans + 3 unnamed players reported anywhere it would be good to know exactly who the players concerned were.
Some of the names mentioned, I imagine, are supposition.
The only logic in having a low value release clause is to get high earners quickly off the wage bill. On that basis, it would make no sense to have Craig Dawson on one.
If we have 4 high earners on circa £100k per week plus Krychowiak & Sturridge, by getting them all off the wage bill, it would reduce our wages by circa £550000 to £600000 per week (£27.5 million to £30 million per year)
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Some of the names mentioned, I imagine, are supposition.
The only logic in having a low value release clause is to get high earners quickly off the wage bill. On that basis, it would make no sense to have Craig Dawson on one.
If we have 4 high earners on circa £100k per week plus Krychowiak & Sturridge, by getting them all off the wage bill, it would reduce our wages by circa £550000 to £600000 per week (£27.5 million to £30 million per year)
What ? 4 of our own on £100K a week, you must be joking mate, we only give £100k a week to players who have no affinity with the club whatever.
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What ? 4 of our own on £100K a week, you must be joking mate, we only give £100k a week to players who have no affinity with the club whatever.
Don't understand your comment?
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Don't understand your comment?
You suggested that we have 4 of our players on £100k per week, please tell me to whom you refer.
I am suggesting that none of OUR players is near that figure.
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You suggested that we have 4 of our players on £100k per week, please tell me to whom you refer.
I am suggesting that none of OUR players is near that figure.
Krychowiak & Sturridge are reportedly on over £100k per week.
I would imagine Evans, Barry, Gibbs & Chadli are also fairly close to it.
We've got a wage bill of £84 million for season 2016/17 which works out around £1.68 million per week.
That would suggest we've got a number of players either on £100k per week or close to it.
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Evans might be touching 75/80k. Only the loanees are above that figure.
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Evans might be touching 75/80k. Only the loanees are above that figure.
How do you account for a 2016/17 wage bill of £84 million?
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How do you account for a 2016/17 wage bill of £84 million?
The 84 million is every employee at the club not just the players.
Players are subject to performance related bonuses on top of their weekly wage.
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Some of the names mentioned, I imagine, are supposition.
The only logic in having a low value release clause is to get high earners quickly off the wage bill. On that basis, it would make no sense to have Craig Dawson on one.
If we have 4 high earners on circa £100k per week plus Krychowiak & Sturridge, by getting them all off the wage bill, it would reduce our wages by circa £550000 to £600000 per week (£27.5 million to £30 million per year)
Re Dawson, I get the point about getting high earners off the wage bill quickly but wouldn't a low value release clause be more in favour of the player rather than the club ? i.e. it was used as an encouragement and safeguard for Evans to sign for us and similarly an encouragement for Dawson to re-sign this year despite our prospects not being rosy.
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The 84 million is every employee at the club not just the players.
Players are subject to performance related bonuses on top of their weekly wage.
performance related! in that case the players should be paying the club.
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Re Dawson, I get the point about getting high earners off the wage bill quickly but wouldn't a low value release clause be more in favour of the player rather than the club ? i.e. it was used as an encouragement and safeguard for Evans to sign for us and similarly an encouragement for Dawson to re-sign this year despite our prospects not being rosy.
It's a bit of both really, but it only works if we have a relatively small number of high earners who make up a significant proportion of our wage bill.
We're probably going to need to reduce our wage bill by around 50%.
If we have 6 players on around £100k per week, that would account for circa £30 million (about 35% of it) but if Jacko's right & Johnny Evans is our highest earner (apart from the loanees), we're going to have to ship out a fair few more.
Craig Dawson is reputedly on around £40k per week, so it wouldn't really make sense to give him a low value release clause, certainly not for a quick sale to reduce the wage bill.
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It's a bit of both really, but it only works if we have a relatively small number of high earners who make up a significant proportion of our wage bill.
We're probably going to need to reduce our wage bill by around 50%.
If we have 6 players on around £100k per week, that would account for circa £30 million (about 35% of it) but if Jacko's right & Johnny Evans is our highest earner (apart from the loanees), we're going to have to ship out a fair few more.
Craig Dawson is reputedly on around £40k per week, so it wouldn't really make sense to give him a low value release clause, certainly not for a quick sale to reduce the wage bill.
but my point is that in the circumstances Dawson may have only agreed to re-sign if there was a low value release clause in the contract irrespective of his wage level. It makes a fair bit of sense if we wanted him to sign and he wanted a release clause.
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I have it fairly good authority that Evans is the top paid player on £80k a week and other than the loanees that is the top paid player. There is a lot of the squad on upwards of £50k which along with those on loan accounts for 90% of the reported wage bill.
The only advantage of relegation release clauses is to shift high earners off the books by giving the players a pre agreed fee which is probably below the players open market value. However when there is a flex down clause they only benefit the players who have an escape route from a pay cut.
If a player won't sign a contract without a release clause don't sign them. They have to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch if they are not prepared to share some of the risk then the club would be better off without them.
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I guess we'll find out if Dawson has one by the fee if/when he's signed by someone in the summer.
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:o if anyone would pay 3 million for the man utd reject
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Evans might be touching 75/80k. Only the loanees are above that figure.
But once you factor in bonuses for
Appearance
Goals
Then the weekly goes up
I haven't listed clean sheet or win bonuses 😀
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I have it fairly good authority that Evans is the top paid player on £80k a week and other than the loanees that is the top paid player. There is a lot of the squad on upwards of £50k which along with those on loan accounts for 90% of the reported wage bill.
The only advantage of relegation release clauses is to shift high earners off the books by giving the players a pre agreed fee which is probably below the players open market value. However when there is a flex down clause they only benefit the players who have an escape route from a pay cut.
If a player won't sign a contract without a release clause don't sign them. They have to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch if they are not prepared to share some of the risk then the club would be better off without them.
I'm in 100% agreement with this and feel it can be disruptive to players already on the books if newcomers aren't in the same boat. Further to this, paying loan players almost double what some members of the existing squad are on is a recipe for disaster, especially if those loan players on inflated wages aren't seen to be delivering on a regular basis. To my mind all Premier League players receive too much money, but pettiness and jealousy are still likely to rear their ugly heads. Bloody hell, I hate so many aspects of the modern game it often surprises even myself as to why I attend the number of games that I do.
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My view
Dispose of:
Jake Livermore
Gareth Barry
Claudio Yacob
Matt Phillips
Hal Robson-Kanu
Johnny Evans
Nacer Chadli
Gregor Krychowiak
Daniel Sturridge
James Morrison
Ali Gabr
Bo Myhill
Would like to retain, but don't think it's likely:
Craig Dawson
Jay Rodriguez
Salomon Rondon
That leaves:
Ben Foster
Ahmed Hegazi
Chris Brunt
Sam Field
Oliver Burke
Allan Nyom
James McClean
Might augment the squad:
Gareth McAuley
Jonathan Leko
Rakeem Harper
I don't think that Hammond (or Garlick) deserve to survive the cull either. However, we will need them both to get through the massive churn of players we are going to experience. One last chance for them to redeem themselves - but Hammond is not allowed to recruit anyone he has ever met.
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I agree with much of what you say, however....’dispose of’ just ain’t realistic.
Barry, Chadli, Sturridge, Krychowiak, Evans; are all leaving without doubt for a multitude of obvious and slightly less obvious reasons. I would love to see Chadli in the Championship but it just ain’t going to happen! 🙄🙏.
We may be lucky enough to get another season out of Dawson/Rodriguez & Rondon - the latter I believe could be integral to us getting out of the Championship despite his top-flight inconsistencies.
There’s then a ‘loyal’ but honest group; Foster, Brunty, Myhill and Mozza despite his fitness issues of late. And lastly, much respect to GMAC!
My ‘open to debate’ group is; Nyom, McLean, Hegazi (yes he’s not quality).
Support and encourage; Field (class in th making), Burke, Leko & Harper.
Players who are good enough for the Championship but lack enough to inspire us; Livermore, Phillips, Yacob (wonderful servant), HRK.
Yes Phillips on his day is a real threat but I’ve seen him deteriorate consistently for awhile now. As for Livermore, much respect but it frightens me just how poor the National teams midfield is!
What about all of the bright and exciting players we could recruit for/in the Champ whilst we have a financial advantage?!!
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Phillips has been awful this season, often appearing unaware of what’s going on and to me, not looking as if he even cares. A definite ‘get rid’ in my opinion.
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We've been handed a fantastic opportunity by Gareth Southgate when he decided to pick Jake Livermore for his England squad, yet again.
I don't know why as he's been useless for the entire season. If he does make it to Russia, hopefully we can cash out and with him being something of an international - we may even make a profit on him :o
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I agree with much of what you say, however....’dispose of’ just ain’t realistic.
Barry, Chadli, Sturridge, Krychowiak, Evans; are all leaving without doubt for a multitude of obvious and slightly less obvious reasons. I would love to see Chadli in the Championship but it just ain’t going to happen! 🙄🙏.
I would just love to see Chadli on the pitch to be honest........
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I agree with much of what you say, however....’dispose of’ just ain’t realistic.
Barry, Chadli, Sturridge, Krychowiak, Evans; are all leaving without doubt for a multitude of obvious and slightly less obvious reasons. I would love to see Chadli in the Championship but it just ain’t going to happen! 🙄🙏.
We may be lucky enough to get another season out of Dawson/Rodriguez & Rondon - the latter I believe could be integral to us getting out of the Championship despite his top-flight inconsistencies.
There’s then a ‘loyal’ but honest group; Foster, Brunty, Myhill and Mozza despite his fitness issues of late. And lastly, much respect to GMAC!
My ‘open to debate’ group is; Nyom, McLean, Hegazi (yes he’s not quality).
Support and encourage; Field (class in th making), Burke, Leko & Harper.
Players who are good enough for the Championship but lack enough to inspire us; Livermore, Phillips, Yacob (wonderful servant), HRK.
Yes Phillips on his day is a real threat but I’ve seen him deteriorate consistently for awhile now. As for Livermore, much respect but it frightens me just how poor the National teams midfield is!
What about all of the bright and exciting players we could recruit for/in the Champ whilst we have a financial advantage?!!
Yes the main thing I'm hoping is that we sign at least 2 bright, youngish, talented midfield players. Whether they come from the Champ, prem reserves or leagues 1 or 2 or abroad. Our midfield has been one paced and one dimensional for far too long. Brunt and Field are the only ones that should be retained, though Livermore is still contracted obviously. Please take the opportunity to liven the midfield up whoever is doing the recruiting.
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Will anyone take a risk on Chadli? He's surely got to prove his fitness to get a contract elsewhere.
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Will anyone take a risk on Chadli? He's surely got to prove his fitness to get a contract elsewhere.
Has the last 8 years in this division taught you nothing? If we can employ a manager with a 6 wins in 37 record they'll forgive a top international attacking midfielder an 8 month lay off.
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A 29 year old attacking midfielder coming back from a long injury lay off should not be on anyone's shopping list so Chadli should be with us next season.
However the fact that he won't be tells you everything that you need to know about how bad football clubs are at recruitment. Most hire on reputation rather anything remotely rigorous add in a heavily discounted fee (if the Evans fee is indicative) not unrealistic wage demands and someone will come in for Chadli. This has West Ham or Villa (if promoted) written all over it.
In general there once those with relegation clauses and those out of contract are taken off the wage bill there is no compelling financial reason to sell any other member of the squad.
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People seem to be thinking Chadli will sail through a medical at another club. He may stay with us purely because no one will take a chance on that.
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People seem to be thinking Chadli will sail through a medical at another club. He may stay with us purely because no one will take a chance on that.
I don't have any evidence but I get the feeling that Chadli just doesn't fancy us rather than having a long term injury.
There's always somebody that will take a chance on 'injured' players, similar to us with Sturridge.
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I don't have any evidence but I get the feeling that Chadli just doesn't fancy us rather than having a long term injury.
There's always somebody that will take a chance on 'injured' players, similar to us with Sturridge.
Spot on, whilst his appearances have been rare, when he’s on his game he’s so obviously a ‘cut above’ every other player we have. I do agree that he just feels he’s a level above also....this sadly is reflected over the last 6 months. Personally, if I was Mr Lai, I would ask him to help us get promoted with the promise to reward him handsomely - it’s a win/win. He may want away, but for one season, his agent may be persuasive. I’m not Mr Lai, but from a business point of view, a fit (IF FIT) Chadli is one of the top 5 players in the Champ without question. Sadly I feel we’ll expect Champagne performances with Pepsi pockets 😱🙄🙄🤬
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Just listened to the Woodman podcast which featured an interview with Gary Mellor who is Jay Rodriguez's agent. The tone of the conversation (not very interesting in general) suggested that Jay is not one of those with a release clause nor is he hammering on his agent's door to get him out of the club. Okay this might change and the agent isn't going to admit it were opposite the case but it looks like we might keep him.
If that is the case we can possibly cross him off the release clause list. My guess is now Evans Chadli, Gibbs, Rondon and or Livermore.
With regard to Chadli I would be amazed if he didn't have a release clause there is zero chance of retaining him in the Championship the only thing in doubt is when he leaves.
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My guess is now Evans Chadli, Gibbs, Rondon and or Livermore.
I'd agree although there has been talk about Dawson having a release clause so he could be one. I think Evans, Chadli and Rondon are certs personally.
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Evans, Chadli, Gibbs, Rondon and or Livermore. Given that we'll be a Championship club that really is no great loss. A defender that is out of form and increasingly ill / injured another that that has done OK but pulled up no trees. Chadli never plays anyway and Livermore would be OK in the Championship but is hardly irreplaceable. Rondon would be good in the Championship and although by no means prolific in the Premier League would be our biggest loss but with decent investment would be no huge loss if we could invest in other areas of the team. Rodriguez will get 20 goals in the Championship anyway. It's the midfield we need to address who seem to contribute next to nothing. That needs building around Sam Field next season.
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Seen plenty of comments saying we need a complete set of new players and while it's true and very likely to happen that the majority of the squad will be leaving with new players coming in it's important to remember that when teams have massive changes it takes a while for things to work in general.
So if we have a change of 15 players, don't be surprised if things take a while to click. Blues had big changes last year.
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Seen plenty of comments saying we need a complete set of new players and while it's true and very likely to happen that the majority of the squad will be leaving with new players coming in it's important to remember that when teams have massive changes it takes a while for things to work in general.
So if we have a change of 15 players, don't be surprised if things take a while to click. Blues had big changes last year.
TBH that's my fear, certainly didn't work a few years ago after Pepe Mel left.
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I understand the implications of the flex-down issues with players and the buyout clauses of some others, but I honestly don’t think there will be a mass exodus of 15 plus players as some are suggesting.
I truly hope we manage to hold on to the vast nucleus of our players, if only for the sake of some continuity and to avoid the type of disruptive upheaval that would cause for at least the first of 12 months in the lower tier, as I consider continuity to be an important factor in stabilising the club after the trauma of this season. I acknowledge that it is these players that have got us in to this situation, but I would hold onto as many as we can, with a few exceptions of course.
Additionally, I would leave the decision to part with players, deemed by some to be surplus to requirement, to the new head coach, should we make a change from the current incumbent
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On an ongoing basis, we need to be very careful with decisions with players who are out of contract or who have an extra year option. That's the logical time to part with players unless they have a good injury record AND are the right age for a new deal AND are what the team structure needs.
I think we also need to think about the length of contracts given. Nyom, he's OK but he's got a 4 year contract ...unless I'm mistaken I'm not sure there was enough evidence of his ability to warrant a 4 year deal ? Could also say the same about Phillips who has a 4 year deal.
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Possibly a lot of our players wanted a long term contract ONLY for the money, because they had to put up with Pulisball.
If you worked for a rubbish company, you would want to make it financially viable just to put put up with the situation.
(It is like working on a production line.....Turn your brain off and act like a robot).
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I know for definite Gibbs doesn't have a release clause
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I'm guilty in wanting to see the back of 75% of this squad ourely for their lack of application and they're part in the last 1-2 years.
But we all know that isnt realistic.
Take a player like Livermore, there is obvious talent there. I'll be interested to see what we can get out of him with better and more innovative coaching. There are some players like Nyom and HRK that i just see as not up to scratch talent wise to play for WBA. But take McClean and Livermore, as despite the frustration they are the types of players that could flourish in the Championship in the right set of circumstances. That being said i think the Championship is their level.
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The club has signed up to some really terrible contracts over the last few years which have added to the issues of an aging and badly put together squad.
The relegation clauses are my particular pet hate.
Contracts that commit us to players probably beyond their peak Nyom, Phillips and Livermore. They are all on 4 year deals when a 3 year deal with an option would have been much better from the club's perspective.
Then there is Hal Robson Kanu which is a whole new level of stupidity we have under contract rumoured to be £50k a week (£25k in the Championship) until he hits 30.
Morrison's contract extension looked generous at the time with the 2nd year of it being spent on the sidelines we should be thankful for there being a break this year.
Overlay this with giving young professionals like Tyler Roberts short contracts we keep what we don't need and lose what we need.
Seriously this is where the "just pay the money" mentality leaves us. We may have erred on the side of parsimony in the past but when things go wrong these decisions mount up to form the mess we currently have.
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I'm guilty in wanting to see the back of 75% of this squad ourely for their lack of application and they're part in the last 1-2 years.
But we all know that isnt realistic.
Take a player like Livermore, there is obvious talent there. I'll be interested to see what we can get out of him with better and more innovative coaching. There are some players like Nyom and HRK that i just see as not up to scratch talent wise to play for WBA. But take McClean and Livermore, as despite the frustration they are the types of players that could flourish in the Championship in the right set of circumstances. That being said i think the Championship is their level.
Just the opposite, he's an athlete not a footballer, his talent is in the gym and on a treadmill, not with the football at his feet.
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I know for definite Gibbs doesn't have a release clause
Interesting, your best guess for the four with release clauses?
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Evans / Chadli / Rondon / Dawson ?
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Evans / Chadli / Rondon / Dawson ?
Would/should we be that bothered?
What if it's
Foster/Yacob/Burke/Rodriguez , arguable more likely to stay and have impact than the other 4 ?, because those four wouldn't (in all probability ) be staying anyway ...
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There has been a few developments over the last week that start to flesh out who is staying.
Foster has confirmed that he is staying come what may
Rondon has a release clause of £8m according to reports so almost certainly will be leaving
Barry a player universally expected to leave has an option to stay. So after his knee operation he can trundle round the place on £30k a week seriously had news if he does.
Foster also said there was a group of players like himself committed to the club who would stay. Brunt is in that group I would guess not sure about who else might be or in fact who else I would want to be in it.
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Fosters quote according to the E+S is 'I’m sure there are quite a few others who would love to stay and help us get back to the Premier League' - that's a little bit vague I'm not sure if that's a definite that people are going to stay regardless of offers from elsewhere. Whereas Foster, as we know, has his family base in the area and is moving towards the end of his career, that won't apply to many of the others......also some of the ones he has in mind may be amongst those that we are hoping will move on.
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There has been a few developments over the last week that start to flesh out who is staying.
Foster has confirmed that he is staying come what may
Rondon has a release clause of £8m according to reports so almost certainly will be leaving
Barry a player universally expected to leave has an option to stay. So after his knee operation he can trundle round the place on £30k a week seriously had news if he does.
Foster also said there was a group of players like himself committed to the club who would stay. Brunt is in that group I would guess not sure about who else might be or in fact who else I would want to be in it.
This release clause issue is puzzling.
A low value release clause on it's own makes no sense whatsoever. On the other hand, if it's a condition of a flex down arrangement, I could make sense of it.
For example: If Rondon's on £50k per week at the moment, we might want the option to flex down to £25k per week. Rondon might find that unacceptable, so we continue to pay him £50k per week, but the £8 million release clause kicks in.
If that is the case, Rondon might not move on, if we think he's important to the team & we continue to pay him at the same rate as we do now. The same applies to the other players on release clauses.
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This release clause issue is puzzling.
A low value release clause on it's own makes no sense whatsoever. On the other hand, if it's a condition of a flex down arrangement, I could make sense of it.
For example: If Rondon's on £50k per week at the moment, we might want the option to flex down to £25k per week. Rondon might find that unacceptable, so we continue to pay him £50k per week, but the £8 million release clause kicks in.
If that is the case, Rondon might not move on, if we think he's important to the team & we continue to pay him at the same rate as we do now. The same applies to the other players on release clauses.
Probably the agent protecting their clients best interests. Had we been relegated the season Rondon or Evans signed then potentially they could have been forced to stay against their will. Some players genuinely don't want to play in The Championship irrespective of money when they see themselves as better than it. A smaller clause also could have been big factors in pushing deals over the line as the players see it as security.
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Fosters quote according to the E+S is 'I’m sure there are quite a few others who would love to stay and help us get back to the Premier League' - that's a little bit vague I'm not sure if that's a definite that people are going to stay regardless of offers from elsewhere. Whereas Foster, as we know, has his family base in the area and is moving towards the end of his career, that won't apply to many of the others......also some of the ones he has in mind may be amongst those that we are hoping will move on.
Only words, once the cash is flashed it changes peoples perspective.
I'm sure Fosters comments are from the heart but if large sums of money are waved it has a funny effect on peoples perspective.
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If we manage to shift somebody of the books to Everton I would take a straight swap for that lookman he looks a decent player and he's quick and koumas esque ball carrier (exactly the type of player we need) and needs game time. If you had the likes of him and Burke in the side with a solid midfield base we would be pretty dangerous imo
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Low value release clauses let the player off the hook of the flex down clauses. They are entirely for the benefit of the player.
If the player can't find a club to trigger the release clause (which are so pitifully low that they would have to be injured not to find one) otherwise they take the 50% pay cut for a season in the Championship.
The Evans clause is so bad that the player actually has a vested interest in us being relegated.
In all probability the players would have not signed for us without the clauses. It is really simple we should have stuck to our guns and not under any circumstances given in to their demands.
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If we manage to shift somebody of the books to Everton I would take a straight swap for that lookman he looks a decent player and he's quick and koumas esque ball carrier (exactly the type of player we need) and needs game time. If you had the likes of him and Burke in the side with a solid midfield base we would be pretty dangerous imo
Long shot but how about Rooney? Not enjoying himself at Everton but could provide a leadership/Terry role next season? Only an idea but we need leaders
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Long shot but how about Rooney? Not enjoying himself at Everton but could provide a leadership/Terry role next season? Only an idea but we need leaders
No more £100K per week players thanks
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Dream ticket Allardyce and Rooney,
Club bled dry by mercenaries from scouseland, wonderful idea ! Building for the future not !
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We have a serviceable first xi in a 4-2-3-1 provided we get a head coach who plays a passing game e.g. Dean Smith
Foster
Nyom Dawson Hegazi Gibbs
Field Livermore*
Brunt NEW PLAYER Burke
Jay Rodriguez
*On balance I would still unload Livermore even though he has looked a lot better under Moore he might have a release clause and in any event we might be able to cash in on his England International status although if he is still here I think he would be at least okay in the Championship.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon have release clauses and won't be here.
I would release or listen to offers for every other player except the youngsters.
e.g. Leko, Harper, Fitzwater and Wilson all of whom should be in the squad.
If the likes of McClean, Phillips or Robson-Kanu are still here that's okay as back up but they aren't 1st choice.
Our priorities then become
1. As good as Goal keeper as we can attract for back up / long term replacement for Foster
2. A number 10
3 A striker to rotate with Rodriguiz
Obviously there would need to be other additions but those would be the top priorities and where we should spend the bulk of the money it would also depend on who stays or goes over the course of the summer.
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We have a serviceable first xi in a 4-2-3-1 provided we get a head coach who plays a passing game e.g. Dean Smith
Foster
Nyom Dawson Hegazi Gibbs
Field Livermore*
Brunt NEW PLAYER Burke
Jay Rodriguez
*On balance I would still unload Livermore even though he has looked a lot better under Moore he might have a release clause and in any event we might be able to cash in on his England International status although if he is still here I think he would be at least okay in the Championship.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon have release clauses and won't be here.
I would release or listen to offers for every other player except the youngsters.
e.g. Leko, Harper, Fitzwater and Wilson all of whom should be in the squad.
If the likes of McClean, Phillips or Robson-Kanu are still here that's okay as back up but they aren't 1st choice.
Our priorities then become
1. As good as Goal keeper as we can attract for back up / long term replacement for Foster
2. A number 10
3 A striker to rotate with Rodriguiz
Obviously there would need to be other additions but those would be the top priorities and where we should spend the bulk of the money it would also depend on who stays or goes over the course of the summer.
Not a bad first team but still lacks a ball carrier in central midfield to help move us up the pitch. Field looks promising but I wouldn't pin my hopes on him for the whole championship season to do this vital role. I can see Dawson going and even maybe Gibbs from the team you put up. We definitely need firepower as it can cover up a lack of quality elsewhere in the team in the championship. We should push the boat out to get two more goalscorers of real quality, one of which can play a lone striker role. As well as a box to box midfielder, I agree we need a creative number 10 too to link up midfield and attack. It's been a long while since we tried to play through the lines (since Pulis came in actually) and we just don't have the current players to do it effectively. I'd keep McClean and Phillips in the championship as I think they can be very useful over the season.
Having said all of this, next season will be defined by desire and commitment - have it and we should be top 6, don't have enough and we'll languish (maybe much) lower than this. The character of new signings will be critical - we need players with something to prove .
The championship is slog and we need a good squad with options not just a decent first team which you can get away with more in the premier league more so (and we did for a few years).
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Not a bad first team but still lacks a ball carrier in central midfield to help move us up the pitch. Field looks promising but I wouldn't pin my hopes on him for the whole championship season to do this vital role. I can see Dawson going and even maybe Gibbs from the team you put up. We definitely need firepower as it can cover up a lack of quality elsewhere in the team in the championship. We should push the boat out to get two more goalscorers of real quality, one of which can play a lone striker role. As well as a box to box midfielder, I agree we need a creative number 10 too to link up midfield and attack. It's been a long while since we tried to play through the lines (since Pulis came in actually) and we just don't have the current players to do it effectively. I'd keep McClean and Phillips in the championship as I think they can be very useful over the season.
Having said all of this, next season will be defined by desire and commitment - have it and we should be top 6, don't have enough and we'll languish (maybe much) lower than this. The character of new signings will be critical - we need players with something to prove .
The championship is slog and we need a good squad with options not just a decent first team which you can get away with more in the premier league more so (and we did for a few years).
Jack Wilshere available on a free.
If we could persuade him to drop down one and keep him fit we'd have some player.
Depends on who the next manager is really and the type of football they like to play.
Will it be a Mogga or a fat Sam?
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I'm not that sure Rondon will leave. A release clause gives him the option to get out of a contract, he may chose not to take up the option. (the same applies with Craig Dawson if he also has a release clause).
Allegedly Rondon is happy, & his family are settled here, if it becomes something of a wrench, I think he may well give it another year.
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Jack Wilshere available on a free.
If we could persuade him to drop down one and keep him fit we'd have some player.
Depends on who the next manager is really and the type of football they like to play.
Will it be a Mogga or a fat Sam?
Wilshere would be great but unrealistic for us I'd think. Surely he'd have half of the premier league after him at least , plus he'd probably be on 100k+ a week.
I don't think we need world class just someone who 1) will actually play (unlike Morrison or Chadli) and 2) someone who can score/ create regularly (remember Dorrans was amazing in the championship with us for a while in a team playing through midfield.
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Wouldn't mind us going for Bradley Dack of Blackburn. On about 19 goals and 8 asists this season from midfield, Division1 player of the season.
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I'm not that sure Rondon will leave. A release clause gives him the option to get out of a contract, he may chose not to take up the option. (the same applies with Craig Dawson if he also has a release clause).
Allegedly Rondon is happy, & his family are settled here, if it becomes something of a wrench, I think he may well give it another year.
Nothing to stop him joining either of the locals if they both get promotion :(
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We have a serviceable first xi in a 4-2-3-1 provided we get a head coach who plays a passing game e.g. Dean Smith
Foster
Nyom Dawson Hegazi Gibbs
Field Livermore*
Brunt NEW PLAYER Burke
Jay Rodriguez
*On balance I would still unload Livermore even though he has looked a lot better under Moore he might have a release clause and in any event we might be able to cash in on his England International status although if he is still here I think he would be at least okay in the Championship.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon have release clauses and won't be here.
I would release or listen to offers for every other player except the youngsters.
e.g. Leko, Harper, Fitzwater and Wilson all of whom should be in the squad.
If the likes of McClean, Phillips or Robson-Kanu are still here that's okay as back up but they aren't 1st choice.
Our priorities then become
1. As good as Goal keeper as we can attract for back up / long term replacement for Foster
2. A number 10
3 A striker to rotate with Rodriguiz
Obviously there would need to be other additions but those would be the top priorities and where we should spend the bulk of the money it would also depend on who stays or goes over the course of the summer.
I agree with a few variations
Matt Phillips would replace Brunt on the right, Brunty either becomes left back as I think Gibbs will leave or will have to fight it out for a spot
We don't need 2 holding midfielders so if Field is to play that role he must be a dynamic box to box player
JRod for me is a must keep
From the list of availables banded around I think Henessey, Wiltshire Fellani and Luke Shaw would be good but apart from Henessey I cant see us attracting the others
We obviously need another couple of good forwards as Rondon and Robson Kanu can go (Rondon I think will want to go abroad and Kanu is a must go)
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I agree with a few variations
Matt Phillips would replace Brunt on the right, Brunty either becomes left back as I think Gibbs will leave or will have to fight it out for a spot
We don't need 2 holding midfielders so if Field is to play that role he must be a dynamic box to box player
JRod for me is a must keep
From the list of availables banded around I think Henessey, Wiltshire Fellani and Luke Shaw would be good but apart from Henessey I cant see us attracting the others
We obviously need another couple of good forwards as Rondon and Robson Kanu can go (Rondon I think will want to go abroad and Kanu is a must go)
Luke Shaw and Jack Wilshere? Are people living in cloud cuckoo land? We're about to become Championship plodders not battling it out for top 6.
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In fairness, I thought he was talking about Wiltshire the county. We probably have more chance of purchasing the county...
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In fairness, I thought he was talking about Wiltshire the county. We probably have more chance of purchasing the county...
LOL... we wouldn't stand a chance of getting Wiltshire if we remained in the Premier League. The only reason he would drop a league would be for money, lots of it, weekly...he is way off our radar.
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Nothing to stop him joining either of the locals if they both get promotion :(
Probably doesn't fit Wolves current style though
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We're getting relegated and there are suggestions of players who we'd do well to attract if we were a Premier League club ???
We need to be looking at youth, both from abroad and poaching from lesser Championship teams. Without knowing who is leaving and what positions we will need filling, or even who is going to be head coach, it is difficult to make any predictions on how we might line-up or who we might be targeting. I'll make a quick list of Championship players who I would like to see us target this summer either as first choice or as competition:
Bartosz Bialkowski (30) - GK - Ipswich
Daniel Bentley (24) - GK - Brentford
Chris Mepham (20) - CB - Brentford
Joe Worrall (21) - CB - Nottingham Forest
Aden Flint (28) - CB - Bristol City
Liam Moore (25) - CB - Reading
Joe Bryan (24) - LB - Bristol City
Rico Henry (20) - LB - Brentford
Ben Pearson (23) - DM - Preston
Ronaldo Vieira (19) - DM - Leeds
Ryan Woods (24) - CM - Brentford
Bobby Reid (25) - AM - Bristol City
Romaine Sawyers (26) - AM - Brentford
Luke Freeman (26) - AM - QPR
Bradley Dack (24) - AM - Blackburn
Jarred Bowen (21) - RW - Hull
Matty Cash (20) - RW - Nottingham Forest
Ollie Watkins (22) - LW/CF - Brentford
Abel Hernandez (27) - CF - Hull
Che Adams (21) - CF - Birmingham
Ben Brereton (19) - CF - Nottingham Forest
Not a definitive list by any means. I've left out some players who play for teams that might be promoted, and those who will definitely be moving to Premier League clubs regardless, e.g. Ryan Sessegnon and James Maddison. If we can add a few of these to the experienced spine we already have, plus a couple of foreign gems then I think we will be in a good position for next season.
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A few points.
I started with a 4-3-3 with a deep sitting play maker with 2 central midfielders ahead them playing behind 3 forwards. However that was 2 new players and besides none of those linked with the job set up that way.
In general we are way too reticent in giving young players responsibility and we have to at some point we have to take the chance on the likes of Field. Megson described Field as having the best passing range of the current squad and it is unlikely that we will upgrade that in the Championship we have to use that talent if we don't we may as well let him go.
We have been mired in squad mentality and as a consequence we have the current mess. First priority is getting a first xi that works then worry about backing it up. Lots of options is more often a muddle of not really good enough players rather than a clear starting xi that works.
Defensive midfielders is a particularly useless label. Livermore/Field/Barry/Yacob/Kychowiack are all described as Defensive Midfielders but plainly very different players.
In a 4-2-3-1 with inverted wingers the 3 behind the striker are supported by over lapping full backs this is a very attack orientated formation and the complete opposite to the rigid version deployed by Pulis, The two deep sitting midfielders are there to provide cover but equally keep the opposition penned in for long periods.
The need for a ball carrier is not so important if we aren't playing with an out and out screening midfielder (yacob) in a low block.
I wouldn't under estimate the challenge just getting in the 3 priority players that I out lined and there is no way can look to the Premier League as a source of players unless the player concerned is well down the pecking order at a bottom half club or a youngster who would benefit from a loan.
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;) Would still like to retain Claudio. An underrated player who could see out his career with us. Also don't write off Mulumbu to do a job in the Championship league.
I reckon these 2 would be extremely solid for next season and bring a bit of "spirit" back to the team.
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Much as I loved YOussef, and I did! He couldn’t hold down a position at Norwich and was second fiddle to Tettey!!!
Pulling up trees at Killy is no recommendation for a club aspiring to bounce straight back to the premiership
A romantic signing and those rarely work out sadly
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It would seem that Dawson is the fourth player with a release clause and he also being heavily linked with Burnley it also means that Livermore isn't the 4th man.
That would put a major dent in the back 4 and would require us to go into the market for a starting Centre Half.
That would give us 4 key hires during the summer
- Centre Half
- Striker
- Number 10
- Goalkeeper.
There would be others but in order to have a functioning first xi those are the priorities
I honestly don't want us to play with a screening defensive midfielder and much as I like Yacob unless we partner him with a very specific combination of midfielders it doesn't work at all or we tend to drop into a deep sitting block. I think we need to move on tactically.
Among the bilge in his post match comments Klopp did make 1 valid point, we will have a lot more of the ball in the Championship we need to be able to use it a lot better than we have for the last 3 of 4 years.
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The biggest name we could potentially sign this summer in terms of a midfielder (or indeed full stop) would be Santi Cazorla and that would still be in the region of unrealistic. Back in training according to BT and I wonder just how many clubs would take a punt given the severity of his injury. Doubt he'd drop down, but depending on how settled etc. he is in the country might sooner stay than go back to Spain.
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The biggest name we could potentially sign this summer in terms of a midfielder (or indeed full stop) would be Santi Cazorla and that would still be in the region of unrealistic. Back in training according to BT and I wonder just how many clubs would take a punt given the severity of his injury. Doubt he'd drop down, but depending on how settled etc. he is in the country might sooner stay than go back to Spain.
Yes afraid it is a bit unrealistic. Even if he was on half his current wages that would be a fair wack for us next year.....we shouldn't risk high wages on anyone who hasn't played for 18 months.
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The last thing we need to sign are "big names" when will people learn that if a "big name" wants to join us it is a tacit admission that they aren't the player they once were and they are eking out the last few pay days before they are finished with the game. Our worst signings have been "big names". A summer of team building with the emphasis on youth and potential no big names and no signings because they will hold a place in the team because of their "leadership qualities" and not much else.
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The last thing we need to sign are "big names" when will people learn that if a "big name" wants to join us it is a tacit admission that they aren't the player they once were and they are eking out the last few pay days before they are finished with the game. Our worst signings have been "big names". A summer of team building with the emphasis on youth and potential no big names and no signings because they will hold a place in the team because of their "leadership qualities" and not much else.
Absolutely spot on Stan, I cannot believe some of the names being proffered on this forum.
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We need to go for younger players on the up, and if we get a few Carters and Chaplows along with the Geras and Korens, so be it. The only "last pay day" signing that worked was Campbell.
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So we've got all these players out of contract
Morrison
Yacob
Myhill
McAuley
Barry
Gabr
Sturridge
Krychowiak
Players being linked away
Robson kanu to Olympiacos
Rondon to spurs or Fenerbahçe
Chadli to Napoli or Fenerbahçe
Mclean to Celtic
Evans to city ,arsenal or Utd
Phillips to Burnley
Rodriguez to Burnley
Dawson to Burnley
Wow if all this happens then it's going to take years to rebuild the squad to a competitive level
Leaves us with
Foster,
Nyom hegazi Gibbs
Leko Field brunt Livermore Burke
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So we've got all these players out of contract
Morrison
Yacob
Myhill
McAuley
Barry
Gabr
Sturridge
Krychowiak
Players being linked away
Robson kanu to Olympiacos
Rondon to spurs or Fenerbahçe
Chadli to Napoli or Fenerbahçe
Mclean to Celtic
Evans to city ,arsenal or Utd
Phillips to Burnley
Rodriguez to Burnley
Dawson to Burnley
Wow if all this happens then it's going to take years to rebuild the squad to a competitive level
Leaves us with
Foster,
Nyom hegazi Gibbs
Leko Field brunt Livermore Burke
Don't think we will be able to keep Dawson if he wants to go, but we should do our best to keep Yacob, as a championship enforcer he could be vital
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Don't think we will be able to keep Dawson if he wants to go, but we should do our best to keep Yacob, as a championship enforcer he could be vital
I'd give yacob myhill and Morrison another year, extra bodies who are more then good enough for the championship. If we can get Morrison fit again then he could be an important player for us. If there's going to be a mass exodus then we have to re sign some of the players out of contract
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I've got nothing against Yacob but to be honest I will be a bit depressed if he is kept on.
I totally echo Standaman's thoughts above
'I honestly don't want us to play with a screening defensive midfielder and much as I like Yacob unless we partner him with a very specific combination of midfielders it doesn't work at all or we tend to drop into a deep sitting block. I think we need to move on tactically'
We need to make ourselves more constructive in midfield, we need more movement in the team. We have to take this opportunity to progress our style. Yacob and Morrison (due to injury) now need to be moved on.
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Some of the fantasy names on this thread has me considering the purchase of adult incontinence pants.....
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Some of the fantasy names on this thread has me considering the purchase of adult incontinence pants.....
Brilliant Dan, but pray tell me, was that with excitement or laughter?, don't worry I think I got it!
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I'd give yacob myhill and Morrison another year, extra bodies who are more then good enough for the championship. If we can get Morrison fit again then he could be an important player for us. If there's going to be a mass exodus then we have to re sign some of the players out of contract
None of them for me.
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I've got nothing against Yacob but to be honest I will be a bit depressed if he is kept on.
I totally echo Standaman's thoughts above
'I honestly don't want us to play with a screening defensive midfielder and much as I like Yacob unless we partner him with a very specific combination of midfielders it doesn't work at all or we tend to drop into a deep sitting block. I think we need to move on tactically'
We need to make ourselves more constructive in midfield, we need more movement in the team. We have to take this opportunity to progress our style. Yacob and Morrison (due to injury) now need to be moved on.
Yacob would urine it in the Championship. With the right 2/3 players alongside him he'd be vital. Some of the best teams in Europe still play with a deeper central midfielder screening the defence. There is nothing out dated about this. When he has played he's been one of our most effective players, his performance in the league match at Anfield for example. Our midfield 2/3 this season has been far too similar - I've no idea why Yacob is the fall guy for this management oversight.
Morrison, I agree should be moved on.
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I would certainly keep Yacob, he would be a cut above at that level.
Morrison needs to be moved on as there is just no way I see him being fit for any prolonged period. You must be on the wind up with Myhill...
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Yacob would urine it in the Championship. With the right 2/3 players alongside him he'd be vital. Some of the best teams in Europe still play with a deeper central midfielder screening the defence. There is nothing out dated about this. When he has played he's been one of our most effective players, his performance in the league match at Anfield for example. Our midfield 2/3 this season has been far too similar - I've no idea why Yacob is the fall guy for this management oversight.
Morrison, I agree should be moved on.
Regarding 'with the right 2/3 players alongside him' - I'm not a fan of us playing 4-4-2 but if we did with Yacob sitting as one of the central two our movement through the pitch would be highly limited....almost inviting hoof it to the front two.
If we did play 4-4-2 I would much prefer to see Field and Livermore in there as they both have the engine and mobility to get up and down.
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The last thing we need to sign are "big names" when will people learn that if a "big name" wants to join us it is a tacit admission that they aren't the player they once were and they are eking out the last few pay days before they are finished with the game. Our worst signings have been "big names". A summer of team building with the emphasis on youth and potential no big names and no signings because they will hold a place in the team because of their "leadership qualities" and not much else.
Worse than "big names" are "big names coming back from long term injury", its exceptional when that works!
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Regarding 'with the right 2/3 players alongside him' - I'm not a fan of us playing 4-4-2 but if we did with Yacob sitting as one of the central two our movement through the pitch would be highly limited....almost inviting hoof it to the front two.
If we did play 4-4-2 I would much prefer to see Field and Livermore in there as they both have the engine and mobility to get up and down.
I wouldn't fancy us to play 4-4-2.
If you keep Yacob you have to play with 2 attacking full backs. Something like a 4-3-3 would suit him, then you can have Field and a more creative central player.
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I've got nothing against Yacob but to be honest I will be a bit depressed if he is kept on.
I totally echo Standaman's thoughts above
'I honestly don't want us to play with a screening defensive midfielder and much as I like Yacob unless we partner him with a very specific combination of midfielders it doesn't work at all or we tend to drop into a deep sitting block. I think we need to move on tactically'
We need to make ourselves more constructive in midfield, we need more movement in the team. We have to take this opportunity to progress our style. Yacob and Morrison (due to injury) now need to be moved on.
I honestly think we need players like yacob in the championship. It's such a tough, competitive league. There's going to be a lot of battles next season, those cold Tuesday night away games. Yacob is certainly someone and the type of player we need
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Another factor is that Yacob will be 31 at the start of next season - we need to learn our lessons, it's the wrong age to be extending contracts unless the player is a clear 1st team starter. Sam Field is a DM by trade, he's playing for England in the age groups and is rated in our club......trust him, use him, let him learn and develop.....and get in as good an AM as we can find with the funds generated by letting Yacob and Morrison go.
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Another factor is that Yacob will be 31 at the start of next season - we need to learn our lessons, it's the wrong age to be extending contracts unless the player is a clear 1st team starter. Sam Field is a DM by trade, he's playing for England in the age groups and is rated in our club......trust him, use him, let him learn and develop.....and get in as good an AM as we can find with the funds generated by letting Yacob and Morrison go.
Agree once a player hits 30 they are either 1st choice or they are gone or maybe one season as a squad player and then gone in this instance this year has been Yacob's year as a squad player. The way out of the Championship is to play football if we are going to engage in a physical scrap we are wasting the advantage we do have.
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I just received this from a new colleague, makes you realise what damage has been done in the ensuing years, as this quote reflects how "we' were perceived across the country back then,
I was a student in Birmingham 1977-1980 – spoilt for choice on a Saturday with West Brom, Birmingham, Villa, Coventry and Wolves all in the top flight. By far and away the most exciting team were the Albion with Regis, Cunningham, Brown, Robson, etc – not to mention Big Ron’s personality! You’ll be horrified to know that my team is Man United and one of the best games I have ever seen was WBA v Man U in the FA Cup on a rain sodden midweek fixture at the Hawthorns. Went to extra time and if my memory serves me well the Baggies won 3-2. Only good thing was that we signed Robson and Remi Moses shortly afterwards!
Enough reminiscing – will be a tough ask to get out of the horribly competitive Championship but hopefully you will do it. Thoroughly deserved the win at Old Trafford the other week. I had a ticket but was invited to a 90 year old’s birthday instead – I made the right choice!!
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Regarding Yacob and his role.
When he first came we played 4-2-3-1 with him and Mulumbu being the defensive 2 and it worked really well, they formed a great partnership. Maybe what we need is to find the next Mulumbu or maybe that's a role Sam Field can carry out (box to box player) which would allow Yacob to do his stopper/destroyer role?
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Being in the Championship will provide many obstacles for us to navigate. I am a big fan of Yacob but also realise his limitations. However most sides need someone like him who is prepared to do the mucky stuff. If you fail in that department, you usually fail. He may not be suitable for every game as will a lot of the players and Darren will know that (when he gets the job) but we shouldn't be under any illusion that we will become Barcelona overnight and roll our way through that league.
There will be some tough matches away at the likes of Bristol City, Millwall, Wigan, (both) Sheffield clubs and Leeds. That will need some scrapping as well as skill. The really successful teams tend to put themselves about a bit to dominate before the stylish play kicks in.
I think we will be ok with the right blend. The thing is not to panic buy now but to have a system in mind select the squad around it but build in plenty of flexibility. And also give to job to Darren sooner than later.
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So we've got all these players out of contract
Morrison
Yacob
Myhill
McAuley
Barry
Gabr
Sturridge
Krychowiak
Players being linked away
Robson kanu to Olympiacos
Rondon to spurs or Fenerbahçe
Chadli to Napoli or Fenerbahçe
Mclean to Celtic
Evans to city ,arsenal or Utd
Phillips to Burnley
Rodriguez to Burnley
Dawson to Burnley
Wow if all this happens then it's going to take years to rebuild the squad to a competitive level
Leaves us with
Foster,
Nyom hegazi Gibbs
Leko Field brunt Livermore Burke
I can see Mozza, Gabr and Yacob staying. McAuley would still be very good in the Championship.
Can't see Kanu going to Olympiacos, nor McClean at Celtic. Yes he supports them but doesn't mean he's good enough. And I don't imagine Burnley would have the funds to buy all 3 players. Perhaps JRod, but the others? Not convinced. The only way I can see that happening is if they all have the 3m buy out.
The only ones I'm convinced will definitely leave are Evans, Chadli and Rondon if the cash is right.
The thing is, we've all been begging for years to have a rebuild and to have some excitement. This is what we have. The club have recently said that mistakes have been made but they have learned from them.
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The spine of the club is easily good enough if we can keep hold of them
Foster is a definite
Dawson and Hegazi make a good central defensive partnership
I prepare for abuse here but Livermore will be OK at central midfield and JRod should be striker
Add to those (again prepared for abuse) Phillips on the right and Burke on the left
Brunty can play left back
Depending on our formation leaves a right back and 2 more midfielders and that the first 11 sorted
To me its imperative that we keep Dawson and JRod.
As others have stated its easy to blame Pulis and Pardew for our demise but now we are down I think that what these players have done this year is criminal and they deserve a large proportion of the blame.
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I'd hope that apart from the players with release clauses and Barry that the others will stay and fight to get us back to the premier league (if that's where they want to play), there have been a number of them saying things like "we're sorry for the fans, we've just not been good enough, the fans have been brilliant" etc etc etc.
Show us that you mean it and stay and try to get us back up.
Personally I think only Evans, Chadli, Barry and Rondon will leave (along with the loanees). We will definitely get offers for Dawson but unless they are too good to refuse I think he'll be here at the start of the new season. I can see Phillips, Livermore and Rodriguez all wanting to stay.
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Foster
Nyom. Dann. Hegazi. Gibbs
Phillips. Yacob. Brunt
Burke. Traore
Vydra
There you go
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Midfield would get overrun. Traore would be around £25 mill in this crazy market, though chadlis fee would cover most of this. Scott Dann is a great shout if palace would let him go.
Maybe something like;
Foster
Nyom Moore(Liam ;D) Dann Taylor
Phillips Livermore Field Brunt
Traore
Jrod
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Adama Traore? Definitely not someone we want playing AM. Not sure why we feel the need to play two players who are wingers because they have the ability to beat and man and have blistering pace in such a technical position when that's areas they both are severely lacking in.
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The spine of the club is easily good enough if we can keep hold of them
Foster is a definite
Dawson and Hegazi make a good central defensive partnership
I prepare for abuse here but Livermore will be OK at central midfield and JRod should be striker
Add to those (again prepared for abuse) Phillips on the right and Burke on the left
Brunty can play left back
Depending on our formation leaves a right back and 2 more midfielders and that the first 11 sorted
To me its imperative that we keep Dawson and JRod.
As others have stated its easy to blame Pulis and Pardew for our demise but now we are down I think that what these players have done this year is criminal and they deserve a large proportion of the blame.
I'm not shouting, I agree with this totally. Esp the bold bits... the bits that invite the abuse!
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The one thing that I really do not understand is that people are being so dismissive if signing a player who is touching 30 is mentioned? Notably this post coming on the back of my Bjelland post in the transfer section. What really strikes me is how out of touch people are at the minute and unrealistic.
We're going to have to go and build pretty much a new squad this summer, there will be an awful lot of interest in our better players and it will make little sense to keep them here against their will especially if the price is right. Even given that extra income I think what people are expecting in picking up some of the best youngsters outside The Premiership is absurd. A top Championship player now costs excess of £10m and depending who they play for £15m.
People need to realise we will need a number of different signings this summer, from punts on nobodies to the signing of seasoned players in their peak as well as those like Burke. Who are the youthful signings people want.
There's a lot to consider when making a signing and for me age would be at the very bottom of the list when considering individual transfers but would be on my mind overall. Someone like Bjelland should be a no brainer. The Championship is a different prospect to when we last there, and people need to start thinking about not just bringing in the younger players but the need to replace some of the huge experience that will be departing us.
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We shouldn't be selling players until we have replacements lined up. Need a big squad to deal with 46 hoof ball games in the championship.
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We shouldn't be selling players until we have replacements lined up. Need a big squad to deal with 46 hoof ball games in the championship.
I'm not sure but I doubt a Championship squad is any bigger than a premier squad. It's one reason that we shouldn't be renewing the contract of someone as injury prone as Morrison ...can't afford to dream of him being fit for even two thirds of the games. We should have half a dozen youngsters now capable of stepping in at Championship level and not letting us down in the event of injuries to the 1st team...unless they are out on loan of course.
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Foster (34), Myhill (34),
Evans (30), Dawson (27), McAuley (38), Hegazi (26), Ali Gabr (29), Nyom (29), Gibbs (28)
Barry (36), Livermore (28), Yacob (29), Krychowiak (27), Field (19), Morrison (31), McClean (29), Phillips (26), Chadli (28), Burke (21), Brunt (33), Leko (19),
Rondon (28), Rodriguez (28), Hal Robson-Kanu (28), Sturridge (28)
Players On Loan:
Ali Gabr,
Krychowiak,
Sturridge,
I think Kyrchowiack and Sturridge will no doubt return to their respective clubs. Question mark on Ali Gabr. Not sure what the club will be thinking. He’s 29. So if they don’t think he’s ready he could well be sent back to his club too.
Myhill and McAuley are out of contract.
Yacob, Barry and Morrison have a 12 month option. I’m not entirely sure who’s favour the 12 Month is in (club or player)
With looking at our squad it’s important we try and keep a core of players to mount a successful challenge.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon all have a release clauses. Not sure who the 4th player is.
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Foster (34), Myhill (34),
Evans (30), Dawson (27), McAuley (38), Hegazi (26), Ali Gabr (29), Nyom (29), Gibbs (28)
Barry (36), Livermore (28), Yacob (29), Krychowiak (27), Field (19), Morrison (31), McClean (29), Phillips (26), Chadli (28), Burke (21), Brunt (33), Leko (19),
Rondon (28), Rodriguez (28), Hal Robson-Kanu (28), Sturridge (28)
Players On Loan:
Ali Gabr,
Krychowiak,
Sturridge,
I think Kyrchowiack and Sturridge will no doubt return to their respective clubs. Question mark on Ali Gabr. Not sure what the club will be thinking. He’s 29. So if they don’t think he’s ready he could well be sent back to his club too.
Myhill and McAuley are out of contract.
Yacob, Barry and Morrison have a 12 month option. I’m not entirely sure who’s favour the 12 Month is in (club or player)
With looking at our squad it’s important we try and keep a core of players to mount a successful challenge.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon all have a release clauses. Not sure who the 4th player is.
Widely accepted to be Dawson...
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For me these players will leave
Sturridge
Ali Gabr
Krychowiak
Morrison
Evans
Dawson
Chadli
Rondon
Myhill
Barry
I'm unsure regarding the following
Phillips
Rodriguez
Gibbs
Hegazi
The players I haven't named will stay in my view.
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The one thing that I really do not understand is that people are being so dismissive if signing a player who is touching 30 is mentioned? Notably this post coming on the back of my Bjelland post in the transfer section. What really strikes me is how out of touch people are at the minute and unrealistic.
We're going to have to go and build pretty much a new squad this summer, there will be an awful lot of interest in our better players and it will make little sense to keep them here against their will especially if the price is right. Even given that extra income I think what people are expecting in picking up some of the best youngsters outside The Premiership is absurd. A top Championship player now costs excess of £10m and depending who they play for £15m.
People need to realise we will need a number of different signings this summer, from punts on nobodies to the signing of seasoned players in their peak as well as those like Burke. Who are the youthful signings people want.
There's a lot to consider when making a signing and for me age would be at the very bottom of the list when considering individual transfers but would be on my mind overall. Someone like Bjelland should be a no brainer. The Championship is a different prospect to when we last there, and people need to start thinking about not just bringing in the younger players but the need to replace some of the huge experience that will be departing us.
Age matters how old a player is determines where they are in their career. Typically a player has 4 years at their absolute peak which for attacking players starts quite early 23/24 and defensive players a little latter 25/26 and goalkeepers probably as late as 28.
Incidentally the physical demands on full backs in the modern game their peak is probably closer to that of attackers. There are exceptions to every rule and precisely when a player hits peak and how long they sustain it will depend on factors such as game time injuries and recovery routines. These same factors determine what a happens post peak and frequently determine whether a player has a long post peak career or a relatively short one.
Bjelland is an interesting example. The player is very good at championship level. When he was at Twente I thought he might have moved to the Premier League to a club like us and I was surprised he turned up at Brentford. This might have been because the Eredivisie does not have a reputation for producing great defenders or because he was relatively old (26) to be moving from the league and he was probably already at or near his peak and equally the type of clubs that might have been interested don't do footballing centre backs.
If you compare Virgil van Dijk's career path it was similar in that he was at Gronnigen but left at the age of 21 for Celtic and therefore was able to move twice more before arriving at Liverpool with 3 or 4 years of peak performance still to come.
Our problem for the last few years is this we have focused almost exclusively on peak or in many cases post peak players and the squad reflects this. Deep sitting blocks are quite kind to post peak defenders particularly full backs but place huge physical strains on the forward players.
Moving from that style has huge implications for the squad and I'm not sure how well the back line copes if we had stayed in the Premier league two new full backs becomes essential less so in the Championship.
Whoever stays most will be in their post peak careers there is plenty of experience none of our regular starting XI have less than 100 first team appearances and players in their mid twenties are hardly novices in any event.
We may sign one or two players who fit Bjelland's profile but they wouldn't be my first choice and too many of that type of player and we are rapidly repeating the mistakes of the recent past. They might get us promoted but we would have to replace them almost immediately if we did.
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Foster (34), Myhill (34),
Evans (30), Dawson (27), McAuley (38), Hegazi (26), Ali Gabr (29), Nyom (29), Gibbs (28)
Barry (36), Livermore (28), Yacob (29), Krychowiak (27), Field (19), Morrison (31), McClean (29), Phillips (26), Chadli (28), Burke (21), Brunt (33), Leko (19),
Rondon (28), Rodriguez (28), Hal Robson-Kanu (28), Sturridge (28)
Players On Loan:
Ali Gabr,
Krychowiak,
Sturridge,
I think Kyrchowiack and Sturridge will no doubt return to their respective clubs. Question mark on Ali Gabr. Not sure what the club will be thinking. He’s 29. So if they don’t think he’s ready he could well be sent back to his club too.
Myhill and McAuley are out of contract.
Yacob, Barry and Morrison have a 12 month option. I’m not entirely sure who’s favour the 12 Month is in (club or player)
With looking at our squad it’s important we try and keep a core of players to mount a successful challenge.
Evans, Chadli and Rondon all have a release clauses. Not sure who the 4th player is.
Not sure Morrison has a 12 month option.
Is the Barry option in our favour? Please....
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Not sure Morrison has a 12 month option.
Is the Barry option in our favour? Please....
I'm sure Barry took up the 12 month option that was in his favour...
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I'm sure Barry took up the 12 month option that was in his favour...
I thought he triggered the 12 month option on appearances, I have yet to see anywhere that he would like to take up that option. I would also like to think that it is a two way conversation as well...
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You'd imagine with any of the lads who are out of contract, they will want to have a conversation with the new manager before deciding anything either way.
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With Moore set to get the job I think we’ll keep more players;
Foster
Lainer Dawson hegazi gibbs
Phillips Livermore Field Brunt
Rodriguez reid
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With Moore set to get the job I think we’ll keep more players;
Foster
Lainer Dawson hegazi gibbs
Phillips Livermore Field Brunt
Rodriguez reid
Maybe, but for all we know, those very same players may have been as impressed or maybe more so after speaking to Smith / whoever about their ideas. Dawson has a release clause so we'll be lucky to keep him.
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Maybe, but for all we know, those very same players may have been as impressed or maybe more so after speaking to Smith / whoever about their ideas. Dawson has a release clause so we'll be lucky to keep him.
Can you point to any press stories of note confirming Dawson has a release clause? I’ve not seen anything with him, unlike Chadli and Rondon.
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Can you point to any press stories of note confirming Dawson has a release clause? I’ve not seen anything with him, unlike Chadli and Rondon.
No but one or two pretty reliable sources on here have mentioned it.
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With the techno from continent I'm expecting a few players to come in under the radar