Author Topic: Anything England Football  (Read 786770 times)

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wba_1996

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4225 on: March 24, 2024, 05:12:46 PM »
Sadly I just can't see us ever winning a major tournament under Southgate. He has won 5 out of 25 games against sides in the top 10 of the FIFA rankings. That is an abysmal record. Tactically he's so, so poor in comparison to most modern managers, and he's not a ruthless tournament manager like a Mourinho. You've got the likes of Jose available, and Mancini (who schooled him in 2020) managing the Saudi Arabia national team, whilst we go into another major tournament with a nice guy who's best managerial attribute is that he says the right things in interviews.

He should have gone after the final against Italy, 1-0 up after 3 mins against an inferior team and we played coward-ball for the next 117 mins failing to register another shot on target. You've got big problems when Carlos Corberan is managing West Brom in the Championship, and is several levels above the manager of the England team.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 05:14:54 PM by wba_1996 »

timdon

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4226 on: March 24, 2024, 07:05:01 PM »
I’d pay good money to watch the under 2’s. Do they play on a regular sized pitch? :D
Forget it mate. Some of them could barely walk by the end of the match. Come to think of it, some of them could barely walk at the beginning  ;D

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4227 on: March 24, 2024, 09:56:08 PM »
Forget it mate. Some of them could barely walk by the end of the match. Come to think of it, some of them could barely walk at the beginning  ;D
Being as most games seem to be at walking pace, I don't think crawling pace is going to be entertaining. And I dread to think what the hissy fits would be like.
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Albionic

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4228 on: March 24, 2024, 10:41:37 PM »
Being as most games seem to be at walking pace, I don't think crawling pace is going to be entertaining. And I dread to think what the hissy fits would be like.

We would romper that, the opposition are a load of dummies
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johnny Cash

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4229 on: March 25, 2024, 07:07:24 AM »
England players have struggled for decades against the top nations, usually down to a lack of variety in the players we produce. I'm not sure if you can honestly say that with this squad though, there are several players now who look comfortable in possession and we have strong options in most positions. The fact we are still losing more than we win vs the top nations may well be on the manager this time. If we don't win the Euro's, or at the very least make the final having beaten top opposition, then I hope we say thank you and goodbye to Southgate.

This is an incredible generation of players with more still coming through, it would be a massive shame to waste it on a manager who isn't quite amongst the elite.


I keep hearing Southgate England teams have been / are the best ever in terms of talent. I agree it has depth and players are probably better on the ball on average, but best 11? I’m not sure. Maybe in a few years it will be but Take the 2004 team

James
Cole, Terry, Ferdinand
Gerrard, Rooney

That’s 6 who I think all definitely play in this 11. Rooney perhaps in a different way to how he did because of Kane but I think he gets worked in somehow. Then you’ve got players like Beckham, Scholes and Lampard, at least one more of which would probably forced their way in in the past (Southgate loved Mount so would have loved Lampard and I think in this Era becks plays centrally all his career and he was better than Henderson).

So 6 minimum and as many as 8 at times from 2004 would have been playing for Southgate in his 11 over his tenure.

Southgate is still managing them poorly though. He’s benefitted from a kind era where France have been the only nation not going through a transition of sorts, couple that with incredibly kind tournament draws and he’s failed every test he’s faced.  Said it before but 02/04/06/10 teams that beat us in tournaments all would have sent Southgate’s sides home. Does the 04 side win one of Southgate’s tournaments. I honestly think it does the final vs Italy.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 07:11:16 AM by johnny Cash »

WBArgo

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4230 on: March 25, 2024, 08:40:55 PM »
I would agree, Sven had the best England team in my life time and was even worse than Southgate. The teams that Hodgson, McLaren and Capello had were all miles worse. Overall, I would say Sven had a 10/10 side whereas Southgate's is probably a 9.5/10 with a bit less balance at the back.

Regardless, they should have done better.

Dan

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4231 on: March 25, 2024, 09:14:12 PM »
The discourse about England is so heightened and usually pretty ignorant of the rest of the world. The England side is good, no doubt about it, top 10 in the world. But the spine is pretty weak, and teams with weak spines are never going to be favourites for tournaments. Whichever way you cut it, England don't have a top centre back to pair with Stones, and neither do England have even a good midfielder to go with Rice in midfield.

It's a flawed team that people have overrated due to a good few years between 2010-2018 when the squad was largely straight up bad. Because its no longer that, people jumped from "worst squad ever" in 2018 to thinking we were the best squad on the planet a couple of years later. Doesn't stack up. At the moment France have clearly the best squad in Europe, England's squad isn't really better than Portugal or Germany's. Then Italy, Netherlands, Belgium are all a bit behind but none a gaping chasm to us.

Southgate did a good job in 2018 and 2021. Average in 2022. Remains to be seen for the Euro's. Overall he'll go down as a good England manager with flawed in game management, albeit people overrating the sides he had. The 2018 side got revised from "worst England squad ever" at the start of the tournament to people blaming him for losing the world cup semi final in extra time, which I guess shows the ridiculousness of it all.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 09:17:52 PM by Dan »

beechyboy90

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4232 on: March 25, 2024, 09:28:08 PM »
This is by no means the best england side in my life time but it is relative to the other nations. Think back to that 2002 and 2006 world cup the golden generation we were still comfortably miles worse than the Italians, French, Germans, Brazilians and Argentines possibly even the Dutch.

Now by relative terms arguably besides the French we are the best side on paper. [I know we don't play on paper] a lot of the big hitters the Germans and the Italians don't have the persdonel they have had over past years and even the south American giants aren't all that. Don't think a good side has won the world cup since Spain 2010 the last few it's all been very marginal

Edit: to the point we are not the best ever but we are relatively and Southgate is blowing our chances at using our slight advantage. Next world cup has even more sides and more knock out so becomes even harder to win. He should have gone after he fluffed it v Croatia in world cup and if anybody had any doubts he should have gone after surrendering a 1-0 lead to Italy that was awful
« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 09:29:48 PM by beechyboy90 »
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Dan

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4233 on: March 25, 2024, 09:42:02 PM »
This is by no means the best england side in my life time but it is relative to the other nations. Think back to that 2002 and 2006 world cup the golden generation we were still comfortably miles worse than the Italians, French, Germans, Brazilians and Argentines possibly even the Dutch.

Now by relative terms arguably besides the French we are the best side on paper. [I know we don't play on paper] a lot of the big hitters the Germans and the Italians don't have the persdonel they have had over past years and even the south American giants aren't all that. Don't think a good side has won the world cup since Spain 2010 the last few it's all been very marginal

Edit: to the point we are not the best ever but we are relatively and Southgate is blowing our chances at using our slight advantage. Next world cup has even more sides and more knock out so becomes even harder to win. He should have gone after he fluffed it v Croatia in world cup and if anybody had any doubts he should have gone after surrendering a 1-0 lead to Italy that was awful

This kind of proves my point about ignorance of the wider footballing world. That Croatia team had Brozovic - Modric - Rakitic in midfield, not one of England's midfielders in the squad was even close to their quality on the ball. You have that level of disparity in midfield you're going to be in trouble. But somehow, because its Croatia, and we're England, it was a crime we didn't beat the better team on paper.

The Italy game is a bit similar. It's not that we couldn't have won, or couldn't have done better but we lost on penalties to a team on a world record undefeated run with a midfield that was far superior to ours. You have the far superior midfield, you probably control the game. That's just the reality of football.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2024, 09:45:23 PM by Dan »

MarkW

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4234 on: March 26, 2024, 03:57:50 AM »
I agree with Dan up to a point. We barely qualified for 2018, with a late goal in Sam Allardyce's sole game in charge getting us there. Southgate came in as a caretaker and was then given the permanent job. He healed and unified the team, and our performance in 2018 galvanised the country. Let's not forget it wasn't long ago the England camp would have a Manchester United table at dinner, a Liverpool table, Chelsea etc. For all the talent the supposed "Golden Generation" had, there were always off-field distractions, e.g. Terry & Ferdinand's feud over Terry's alleged racism to Rio's brother.

What Southgate has done off the field deserves an enormous amount of credit. And the way he has evolved the team over his tenure also shows good development - in 2018 we tried to be solid, and generally relied on set pieces, which was sensible given little preparation time and the realities of tournament play. We then developed the possession-heavy style that I and others have termed "suffer-ball". It's exasperating to watch but again, did well over the Euros tournament. And from what I've seen Vs Brazil we trying to press more and play more expansively, though I'm not sure we did it very well.

All that said, I still am left with the feeling that we could have done better. I take Dan's point about the midfield of Croatia - you can add Lovren, Vrsaljko, Rebic, Mandzukic and Perisic as all solid players would would be in contention for England if they were English. But you can look at the substitutions in that game and you could argue they came too late (equally our subs bench was fairly dire).

Likewise the Italy team had Donnarumma, Bonucci and Chiellini, but I'm not sure any of their other players would be "stars"...Veratti probably? Jorginho is obviously a very solid player. The fact we tried to play Catanaccio Vs them after getting an early goal speaks volumes, but if not for some missed penalties, the narrative would be that Southgate "did enough" and his final subs for the pens were clever.

Returning to the here and now, Kane & Bellingham are good enough to go into any team in the world. Beyond that we have several players who do well for their clubs but I think tournament play is very different, and what they are asked to do by England is very different. I'd put Rice, Foden, Saka and maybe Trent Alexander-Arnold in there; perhaps John Stones too. As much as Maguire has had an enormous amount of faith out in him, and based on club form unjustifiably so, the fact no other English centre back has made themselves the undeniable partner to Stones says a lot. We've had a revolving door of "nearly men", such as Dunk, Mings, Guehi etc. Some more than others could feel harshly done by, but it's a glaring area of weakness, alongside left back.

I hope this is Southgate's last tournament for us, but I hope it ends on a high. I don't like his coaching team's in-game strategy or management, but he has moulded the national team into what it is, from working at U21 level all the way to now. He deserves credit for that, and for fans actually having an expectation for England to be competitive and not just assume we'll be dumped out at the first knock out round.
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costa blanca baggie

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4235 on: March 26, 2024, 08:38:10 AM »
England players won't have their names on their shirts for tonight's game to create awareness about dementia. Who most relies on being reminded who's who during the match? Unbelieveable!!
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wba_1996

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4236 on: March 26, 2024, 08:47:59 PM »
On track to make it 4 wins from 26 against top 10 ranked sides. We have no hope of winning anything under this guy. This is probably the poorest Belgium side in a decade, with De Bruyne missing, and yet another manager who has done a job on him so far.

He’s lost Maguire and brought Lewis Dunk in to play a high line, who incidentally just got ragged by Lukaku in the Europa League. Same thing has happened again and it’s cost us, Lukaku isn’t even a particularly quick player.

If he gets the United job in the summer as has been rumoured, I genuinely think they become relegation candidates. Tactically he’s a couple of levels below every manager in the Prem, and the top 8 in the Championship.

gazberg

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4237 on: March 26, 2024, 08:49:31 PM »
He's not a good manager for me, just a steady eddie type wasting the talent at his disposal. He is levels below our players.

beechyboy90

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4238 on: March 26, 2024, 09:08:25 PM »
This kind of proves my point about ignorance of the wider footballing world. That Croatia team had Brozovic - Modric - Rakitic in midfield, not one of England's midfielders in the squad was even close to their quality on the ball. You have that level of disparity in midfield you're going to be in trouble. But somehow, because its Croatia, and we're England, it was a crime we didn't beat the better team on paper.

The Italy game is a bit similar. It's not that we couldn't have won, or couldn't have done better but we lost on penalties to a team on a world record undefeated run with a midfield that was far superior to ours. You have the far superior midfield, you probably control the game. That's just the reality of football.

The Croatia midfield 👌
However in both games I cited Southgate was slow and reactive and both opposition managers were bold and proactive. England should have gone for kill in both games but we sat off pulls esque and have nothing to show for either besides losing a final on penalties to a poor Italian outfit
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Baggies

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4239 on: March 26, 2024, 09:21:10 PM »
I agree with the point about the spine of the team, it hasn't quite been there over the last few years, but that is starting to change now. The midfield trio tonight still need to develop,  but they have potential to be as good as any midfield trio in Europe. Bellingham in particular has future Ballon d'Or winner written all over him.

Kane, Saka, Walker, Forden would all be considered for any squad in world football, while the likes of Rashford, Tomori, Alexander-Arnold, Grealish, Stones and James have played at the top level for top sides. Throw in up and coming defenders like Colwill and Branthwaite could finally be the answer to our defensive issues.

I don't think there are any sides in international football that are perfect. France probably have 2 players for every position, but the rest rely on a mix of world class players and then filler, just like we do, the difference being we probably have more strength in depth than most.

We aren't in a great place with injury at the moment (plus a loss of form for a couple of players), but this is still a very talented group.
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beechyboy90

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4240 on: March 26, 2024, 09:21:42 PM »
And again losing to a top ranked side. I would hate to see his record against higher ranked opposition
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wba_1996

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4241 on: March 26, 2024, 09:39:26 PM »
And again losing to a top ranked side. I would hate to see his record against higher ranked opposition

It’s 4 wins from 26. A 15% win rate when he’s not up against Moldovan plumbers.

He tried his best to win tonight as well. Leaving it 75 mins before making subs shows he was treating that as a knockout game rather than a friendly. And he came up short yet again, he’s nowhere near good enough and should have gone after the Italy game in 2020.

gazberg

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4242 on: March 26, 2024, 09:41:35 PM »
Didn't he sign a new contract not too long ago?

wba_1996

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4243 on: March 26, 2024, 09:44:10 PM »
Didn't he sign a new contract not too long ago?

Expires in December but rumours he’s getting an extension.

gazberg

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4244 on: March 26, 2024, 10:11:15 PM »
Expires in December but rumours he’s getting an extension.

Oh lord no

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4245 on: March 26, 2024, 10:37:40 PM »
Good effort to get the draw after a fairly dominant half, while Bellingham showed his class in the end, but it’s another disappointing turn out vs one of the elite sides. We had a hell of a lot of injuries, but Belgium were missing a few names as well today. Our record vs the elite, as has already been pointed out a few times, is just sub standard. A fairly ordinary Germany have beaten France and Netherlands this international break, could you imagine us doing the same? If you take the average “elite” side, they win as many as they lose vs other members of the elite. Sadly, we don’t under Southgate. I disagree that our squad doesn’t match up to the rest now. Time to start getting the results.

The bright side is that in the summer, we will hopefully have a full choice of players to pick from, including Kane, Saka, Walker and co, with the added advantage of young Mainoo, and hopefully Colwill. It will be a much stronger side than the one we’ve seen this week.
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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4246 on: March 27, 2024, 08:48:57 AM »
Picking the likes of Dunk & Maguire whilst not picking Tomori is ridiculous. He must have seen how Dunk struggled against Lukaku at club level recently. Poor defensive picks means more cautious choices further upfield leaving the team playing with the handbrake on 
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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4247 on: March 27, 2024, 10:24:15 AM »
I've been supportive of Southgate over the years but he timidly sticks with with players that aren't cutting it like Maguire.  Last night was a friendly, an opportunity to play Branthwaite when Stones was injured but he fielded Dunk who has already proved himself inadequate.  So what did he learn of his back four options?  Nothing.  A manager must not be afraid to fall out with players even if they have served him / her for a long time.

He has promoted Mainoo but I wouldn't be surprised if he started Phillips first game of the tournament.
Thought Konsa was OK - just sayin'.  But Toney wins over  Watkins every time.
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BaggieBoy04

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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4248 on: March 27, 2024, 11:37:28 AM »
My dad said after last night his England Squad is made up, GK Pickford Second Choice primarily as he is playing or was before he was injured in Johnstone with Pope as 3rd choice as Ramsdale lacks confidence and Trafford is awful, Defence Shaw LB, Walker RB maybe with Trippier as a back up for either Defence Stones and Guehi with Maguire as Back Up, Midfield Rice, Mainoo, Henderson as back up, Bellingham and Madison as back up, Wingers Gordon/Foden who could back up at Number 10, Saka and Bowen and Kane and Toney no Chillwell to inconsistent, Grealish passes it back, Watkins wastes chances lacks physicality, Trent could also be a back up for that Midfield as the Attacking Midfielder or Defensive if needed. No Dunk or Tomori Southgate doesn't play Tomori, Konsa was named as he can back up Centre Back and Right Back. Reece James made of Glass, Phillips awful. Bowen is criminally underated my dad said if Kane got Injured and Bowen was played as a striker with the right time around him we could still win the Euros. How this guy is still at West Ham, Walker My dad thinks can do 2026 as he is still so quick, Stones is bordering World Class, Bellingham and Rice to, Bellingham will probably end up being World Class the next Bryan Robson, Saka and Foden are borderline but at the moment are Above Average, Kane is World Class. My Dad often says Right Back is our strongest area in defence alongside Stones and if we had Kyle Walker the Best Right Back in the World with Ashley Cole the Best Left Back in the World we would be 1 more good defender away alongside Stones to have a world class defence.

My Problem is we play 4-2-3-1 which Is fine but with our attacking talent we don't need to play so Defensive, we have some of the best players in the world and in Europe for playing in the attack if we wanted an extra man in defence 4-3-3 with Rice dropping into a Back four if we played Konsa alongside Stones he could move across to the right Mainoo could cover for Rice and Walker and Bellingham allowed to get it forward or Mainoo and Bellingham driving forward. We play to Defensive. If we used our attacking talent to press we wouldn't need to defend. Albion at times have been so dominate in attack that we very looked troubled of course we don't have the same quality, so Liverpool are the best example when Slozabai, Sarah, Diaz, Jota whoever get the ball they are dominant. The best example of Liverpool is when they had Fabhino he would often stay back to almost make a back 3 with Trent and Robertson pushing with Henderson and the other Midfielder to launch the attack. Trent often was the starting point pinging the pass into the channels or attacking Midfield area where Henderson back in his prime would look for a forward pass. When they did need to defend Robertson and Trent would drop back or Henderson would come back with Robertson in theory they would have 5 players defending and 5 players attacking or 6 defending and 4 attacking, England could do this. With Bellingham and our three other attacking players waiting for us to win the ball back or Kyle Walker who has more pace than Trent using the width to get the ball forward. It is frustrating seeing our attacking players dropping deep. We should have two styles Pressing and Possesion against weaker teams and then counter attack with the Press against top sides. You can play that back 4/5 if needed but still have the ability to pick a part the defence.

I like Southgate he has given me hope England can win something, I hope we win the Euros, but I Don't think we will because Southgate picks players who aren't good enough as they never let him down or he knows them we should take a gamble. So for me this Is like Belgium if we Don't win with our golden generation then he has to go. Jose has expressed interest in International Mangement or Newcastle because of Bobby Robson, he often said if not Portugal he would like to manage England because of his time here get him in, the Football wouldn't be pretty but with this talent and Jose's record he is winning things plus it would be absolutely funny to his antics on the touchline.

Going back to my Dad's point if we go up and stay up England third choice or second choice keeper, Alex Palmer he plays regularly, unless Ramsdale gers a move and Trafford improves and for that Winger position Tom Fellows (That's my own suggestion). Speaking of Fellows how has been doing for the U20's
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Re: Anything England Football
« Reply #4249 on: March 27, 2024, 12:38:08 PM »
Said it for the entirety of his tenure, awful manager now in charge of some of the worlds best players. Just have to hope the players can provide the magic to win us the tournament in spite of him and then pray Man Utd appoint Emery and the Villa appoint Southgate to replace him  ;D

Club legend etc.