Author Topic: Next manager...  (Read 718019 times)

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overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2075 on: May 15, 2019, 11:38:59 PM »
Don't like hypocritical Burnley, but I read somwhere that they operate on a £58m wage bill, which I am sure leaves enough for the likes of Barry "West brom get an illegal subsidy" Kilby a nice little earner.

Amazingly low wage bill, but a very unattractive workmanlike team.

I'd take Dyche in the unlikely event he becomes available as his recruitment is quite exceptional, but who else here would?

Not a prayer of him leaving Burnley

timdon

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2076 on: May 15, 2019, 11:50:27 PM »
My head in a way says that you are right but my heart still wants a football revolution with someone like Graham Potter coming in a building a team from scratch.
That's what my head says. It's exactly what we need, a good young coach with a 3 year plan.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2077 on: May 15, 2019, 11:50:40 PM »
Not a prayer of him leaving Burnley

That's not the question I asked though is it, it's with those wages and the pulisesque football would they take him if was to become available?

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2078 on: May 16, 2019, 12:40:58 AM »
I doubt it will happen but personally I'd like Monk to manage us. He plays good football and seems a decent bloke.

I've been wanting him appointed since we fired Pulis TBH

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2079 on: May 16, 2019, 12:43:00 AM »
Telegraph reporting that we will be speaking to CH next week.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2080 on: May 16, 2019, 12:47:20 AM »
Interesting developments quick run through some of the names before some more detailed thoughts on current favourite Chris Hughton.

Vieira.  Odd name to be linked but he is already Head Coach in Ligue 1 at Nice who are certainly not minnows even if they are a step below PSG and Lyon. Their last two coaches left to take up positions at Southampton and Dortmund and that is the direction of travel for Patrick Vieira rather than the Albion.

Dan Cowley. When you feel the need to defend the way you play football in League 2 you can rest assured that it is pig ugly. I am not adverse to giving the role to an up and coming coach from outside the top two teirs but, no.

Hughton seems to be the favourite so is worth considering a little bit more closely in particular the apparent paradox of his teams scoring lots of goals in the championship and the virtual disapperance of Brighton as an attacking entity in the second half of this season which basically lead to his dismissal.

Hughton is in the same pragmatic camp as Benetiz,Mourinho, Pulis and Moyes (among others) He shares a fondness like other members of the group for a 4-2-3-1. This formation has two basic modes an offensive and a defensive one. In offensive mode the deep sitting double pivot is used to pin opponents in their own half free the front 4 to play and under more attack minded managers the full backs also push high up to provide additional wide options.

The defensive mode is sees the deep sitting block form which in it's extreme form sees the double pivot play just in front of the back four the full backs tuck in and the two wide players drop deep as auxiliary full backs. The 10 may also drop deep leaving a lone striker as the only out ball. This is Pulisball because Pulis seldom if ever moves out of this mode almost regardless of opposition or game situation.

Nearly every other manager is tends to switch between the two modes based on the relative strength of the opposition and game situation. Typically when confronted with superior opposition they will tend to be cautious and when there is a need to get a "result"  often the default mode is defensive. However when confronted by inferior opposition particularly at home they play on the front foot and often rack up big scores like Mourinho's championship winning Chelsea teams.

Specifically Hughton has managed Newcastle and Brighton at Championship level and certainly Newcastle would have had a very strong squad and Brighton's would certainly been above the league average. Hence the goals. in the Premier League however he has reverted to a more defensive version to grind out the neccassary points first at Norwich and now at Brighton. This is understanable but another tendancy that he shares with this group of managers is when the pressure grows they tend to become more defensive until they get to a position of relative safety and boy is it dull to watch.

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

And the hypothetical Dyche question what he achieved at Burnley is remarkable but no it is as unwatchable as Pulisball. That is what it boils down to I have to watch it and I just don't like the way many of these managers play the game.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2081 on: May 16, 2019, 02:12:48 AM »
Interesting developments quick run through some of the names before some more detailed thoughts on current favourite Chris Hughton.

Vieira.  Odd name to be linked but he is already Head Coach in Ligue 1 at Nice who are certainly not minnows even if they are a step below PSG and Lyon. Their last two coaches left to take up positions at Southampton and Dortmund and that is the direction of travel for Patrick Vieira rather than the Albion.

Dan Cowley. When you feel the need to defend the way you play football in League 2 you can rest assured that it is pig ugly. I am not adverse to giving the role to an up and coming coach from outside the top two teirs but, no.

Hughton seems to be the favourite so is worth considering a little bit more closely in particular the apparent paradox of his teams scoring lots of goals in the championship and the virtual disapperance of Brighton as an attacking entity in the second half of this season which basically lead to his dismissal.

Hughton is in the same pragmatic camp as Benetiz,Mourinho, Pulis and Moyes (among others) He shares a fondness like other members of the group for a 4-2-3-1. This formation has two basic modes an offensive and a defensive one. In offensive mode the deep sitting double pivot is used to pin opponents in their own half free the front 4 to play and under more attack minded managers the full backs also push high up to provide additional wide options.

The defensive mode is sees the deep sitting block form which in it's extreme form sees the double pivot play just in front of the back four the full backs tuck in and the two wide players drop deep as auxiliary full backs. The 10 may also drop deep leaving a lone striker as the only out ball. This is Pulisball because Pulis seldom if ever moves out of this mode almost regardless of opposition or game situation.

Nearly every other manager is tends to switch between the two modes based on the relative strength of the opposition and game situation. Typically when confronted with superior opposition they will tend to be cautious and when there is a need to get a "result"  often the default mode is defensive. However when confronted by inferior opposition particularly at home they play on the front foot and often rack up big scores like Mourinho's championship winning Chelsea teams.

Specifically Hughton has managed Newcastle and Brighton at Championship level and certainly Newcastle would have had a very strong squad and Brighton's would certainly been above the league average. Hence the goals. in the Premier League however he has reverted to a more defensive version to grind out the neccassary points first at Norwich and now at Brighton. This is understanable but another tendancy that he shares with this group of managers is when the pressure grows they tend to become more defensive until they get to a position of relative safety and boy is it dull to watch.

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

And the hypothetical Dyche question what he achieved at Burnley is remarkable but no it is as unwatchable as Pulisball. That is what it boils down to I have to watch it and I just don't like the way many of these managers play the game.


Your thoughts on Roy Hodgson, who you might as well be describing regards your thoughts on Hughton. Cheers.
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Standaman

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2082 on: May 16, 2019, 07:02:13 AM »

Your thoughts on Roy Hodgson, who you might as well be describing regards your thoughts on Hughton. Cheers.

Yes as I said there are quite a few established coaches that are similar. In defence of Roy he doesn't retreat as far into his shell as Hughton has particularly this season.

It is debateable as to how far this style of football can carry a team. I was listening to a podcast the other day and the discussion was on which of the Premier League teams might step up into the top 6 should United continue to slide next season. While Wolves and Nunes were much admired to actually break the top 6 the view was that to accumulate enough additional points he needed to find a few more forward gears.

The danager with this type of coach is that at some point in the future will get left behind at all levels of the game while fine for grinding out survival it isn't enough if you want to win stuff e.g. promotion then this style needs to be jetisoned 
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overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2083 on: May 16, 2019, 07:44:40 AM »
That's not the question I asked though is it, it's with those wages and the pulisesque football would they take him if was to become available?

I would sincerely hope not

baggiebof

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2084 on: May 16, 2019, 07:48:08 AM »
[quote author=Standaman link=topic=23098.msg661555#msg661555

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

[/quote]

Exactly where I am.

Atomic

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2085 on: May 16, 2019, 08:01:59 AM »
The trouble with an expansive, attacking style of play is that it is very difficult for newly promoted clubs to implement successfully  because you are trying to play fire with fire against some of the worlds best players.

It's fine to play that way if you are Liverpool or Man City and clubs down to the levels of Everton / Leicester can do it to some extent because they have had years to recruit better players. When you go up from the Championship if you want to survive you have to be more pragmatic. Someone like Graham Potter may produce a top class Championship team like Swansea may well become but in the Premier League it won't work consistently.

Wolves have done it exactly the right way they play a counter attacking game that can succeed in the Premier League. The next step for them is to continue to play the same way but to bring in even better players to do it (and that's hard). Then if they can achieve that then and only then is it logical to try and play a more expansive type of football.

The positive regarding Hughton is he has adapted to what division he's managing in. His teams have tended to be a bit less pragmatic in the Championship than they have in the Premier League. Even then he's no Pulis.

Mister AT

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2086 on: May 16, 2019, 09:01:46 AM »
[quote author=Standaman link=topic=23098.msg661555#msg661555

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.



Exactly where I am.

Unless you had the personnel, it would be suicidal to go into the premier league thinking you can outplay majority of the teams.

Norwich play some nice football, plenty of quick passing, I guarantee if they continue that style next season they will get picked apart by any of the top 10 teams.

I think we are looking to far ahead, this summer a big rebuild is required, we need someone who can deliver that and build a decent enough team to challenge next year. Let's not even worry/think about the Premier League, as we are nowhere near it yet.

Let's get the best man in for the job. If the board think that's Hughton then so be it, we as fans need to back him, we saw on Tuesday night what a full stadium that back the players on the pitch can do, they put in a solid performance and looked absolutely shattered. Would they have done that if the crowd was negative, I doubt it.
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darbolina

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2087 on: May 16, 2019, 09:21:16 AM »
I can see the value of establishing a more open passing based style from scratch and I'd love this (I enjoyed it with Mowbray but don't think we've really attempted it since), but I think we have to be realistic and accept that the club has been moulded for probably ten years now around a more pragmatic, defensive based style based.  I'd compare our current position squad wise to the time just before Megson took over. In the late 90s, we'd had a few years of switching managers often, had lost our way and were left with some older, overpaid players who needed replacing. The club culture needed an overhaul.  At the time, we know Megson was a bit of a revolution and built a solid foundation to build from which began a phase where we were able to evolve - peaking around 10 years later. He changed the culture for the better. This needs to be absolutely right before style now!

Hopefully it doesn't take 10 years to get us back to mid table premier league playing much better football than we have been but I think to get there, first we have to change culture (back to aspiring to improve instead of being good enough) and lay some stronger foundations than we have at the moment.

Hughton for all of the criticism of style, seems to leave clubs in decent shape, not in debt and if someone is there to help avoid some his more costly transfer mistakes on forwards he seems to make from time to time, I think he could potentially leave us in decent shape to evolve further whatever happens (he's been at Newcastle, Norwich and now Brighton and generally left them better off on the whole).

Of course, I probably sound too careful with this approach but Mowbray came into what was already a very good squad and tweaked it to make us into an entertaining if painfully , idealistically naive team in the premier league. Wolves have built a very good side but have spent over 100m in process and have deep connections with Mendes we just don't have. We can't do it that way so in the absence of spending our way to a good team  we need to build it step by step.

 


dangerman

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2088 on: May 16, 2019, 10:39:54 AM »
I'd like to be linked to different names if I am honest. The usual names bore me and worry me.

What also worries me is that we are at this stage and still no closer to actually getting someone in.

I had a little hope they had someone lined up when Moore went, but it seems they acted on a whim.

Whoever it is, I just hope they're given enough time to get a few players in.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2089 on: May 16, 2019, 10:44:02 AM »
I'd like to be linked to different names if I am honest. The usual names bore me and worry me.

What also worries me is that we are at this stage and still no closer to actually getting someone in.

I had a little hope they had someone lined up when Moore went, but it seems they acted on a whim.

Whoever it is, I just hope they're given enough time to get a few players in.
Think they did have a target or two at the point of sacking ,Jocanavic was one for sure .
Alan Nixon reported we needed to "get real " with our offer to both him and I think Moyes which as usual will be the sticking point.
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Mister AT

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2090 on: May 16, 2019, 11:01:39 AM »
I'd like to be linked to different names if I am honest. The usual names bore me and worry me.

What also worries me is that we are at this stage and still no closer to actually getting someone in.

I had a little hope they had someone lined up when Moore went, but it seems they acted on a whim.

Whoever it is, I just hope they're given enough time to get a few players in.

Jokanovic was the man they wanted when they got rid of Moore.

I'm guessing initial discussions would have been positive and that's why the club acted, then probably for one reason or another (main ones more than likely being wages and transfer budgets) that didn't happen.

I think the fact we didn't appoint anyone else was further proof that we wanted Jokanovic. I never really brought into Alex Neil rumours to be honest, and fair play to him for using it to his advantages to get a better contract.

I don't have faith in the current heirachy to oversee a big overhaul of the playing staff and the style of football, that's why for me I think Hughton is the best fit.

Championship experience, premier league experience, has won promotion a couple of times. well respected within football.

I have said before though, if he comes in - I think that's the end of Rodriguez here, really cant see Jay wanting to stay if Hughton is named boss.
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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2091 on: May 16, 2019, 11:17:00 AM »
I’m tired of all the safe/predictable names being linked to the job as per usual, think we need a younger, more ambitious man, I’d try and get Barnsley’s Daniel Stendel who has done an excellent job working with scraps and playing a good brand of football too. He also has plenty of experience from the German league. Alternatively, how about the Lincoln boss who has now achieved two promotions in very quick succession.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2092 on: May 16, 2019, 11:19:53 AM »
I’m tired of all the safe/predictable names being linked to the job as per usual, think we need a younger, more ambitious man, I’d try and get Barnsley’s Daniel Stendel who has done an excellent job working with scraps and playing a good brand of football too. He also has plenty of experience from the German league. Alternatively, how about the Lincoln boss who has now achieved two promotions in very quick succession.

Whilst Cowley at Lincoln has done very well the past few seasons, he has done so playing a brand of football similar to what Megson provided, certainly not entertaining if that's what the vast majority of fans want.

It is not the taking part, but the winning that counts.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2093 on: May 16, 2019, 11:24:34 AM »
Whilst Cowley at Lincoln has done very well the past few seasons, he has done so playing a brand of football similar to what Megson provided, certainly not entertaining if that's what the vast majority of fans want.

Cowley's brand of football makes Pulis look like Guardiola.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2094 on: May 16, 2019, 11:45:29 AM »
Matt Wilson. Said Hughton and Cowley early front runners. Interested in Viera too.

I would have Viera in a heartbeat, the bloke is a winner, not used to losing and played with  the most attractive sides in football.
What could we possibly offer him to come here from Nice though, and who would buy out his contract?

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2095 on: May 16, 2019, 11:51:47 AM »
Yep he also said that Viera would be extremely tough/costly to tempt away.

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2096 on: May 16, 2019, 12:22:32 PM »
I’m tired of all the safe/predictable names being linked to the job as per usual, think we need a younger, more ambitious man, I’d try and get Barnsley’s Daniel Stendel who has done an excellent job working with scraps and playing a good brand of football too. He also has plenty of experience from the German league. Alternatively, how about the Lincoln boss who has now achieved two promotions in very quick succession.
]

I had suggested Stendel just after DM got sacked, think it might be a little harder to tempt him here now that Barnsley have been promoted.

Expectations there will be to just stay up I imagine and anything else is a bonus so he may see it as a safer option to stay there a bit longer.
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Hull Baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2097 on: May 16, 2019, 12:23:47 PM »
I would have Viera in a heartbeat, the bloke is a winner, not used to losing and played with  the most attractive sides in football.
What could we possibly offer him to come here from Nice though, and who would buy out his contract?

the same could be argued for Tierry Henry but I wouldn't want him.

 Vieira has a 38.4% win percentage with Nice scoring less than a goal a game (32 in 39 games) with an overall goal difference of -6 (32/38)  Of the 39 games they've won 15, drew 12 lost 12......not the most inspiring stats I've read.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Vieira#Coaching_career
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Atomic

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2098 on: May 16, 2019, 12:28:51 PM »
the same could be argued for Tierry Henry but I wouldn't want him.

 Vieira has a 38.4% win percentage with Nice scoring less than a goal a game (32 in 39 games) with an overall goal difference of -6 (32/38)  Of the 39 games they've won 15, drew 12 lost 12......not the most inspiring stats I've read.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Vieira#Coaching_career


I was just about to post very similar.

Let's just appoint a name eh?

Due diligence anyone?

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2099 on: May 16, 2019, 12:40:48 PM »
What type the new managers success is will depend on what we do with our current players.

If we retain most of the current squad, they have shown their limitations, then we would be best to go for a Hughton. They will be organised, well drilled, workman like and probably pretty effective at this level, there would be no point getting in a jokanovic for our current squad.

I like Hughton and if the above scenario is the case (ie - we keep most of the squad) he would be the obvious choice, i like him as a bloke and think he would do a decent job, i wouldnt be disappointed with Hughton but he wouldnt get the juices flowing.

I think after 3 of our previous 4 permanent mangers have been Irvine, Pulis and Pardew, as a fan i want somebody to get excited about.

If we have a big clearout then i would like to see a new manager coming in who can build his own team, have an identity and ideally play positive football, if we got to the premier league it would be nice to see that then carried on.

Bournemouth have shown it can be done and they gradually built from league two, Southampton did it, stayed up, then reverted to more caution but are now trying to play on the front foot. Wolves have shown it can be done, abeit with well funded and well connected owners.

I hope Norwich go up and have a real good go, their fans are buzzing as they know this time it looks like they will try and different approach to getting to the magical 40 points. I hope Derby if they go up do well too as they play positive football.

I think with three of the bottom four teams Brighton, Cardiff and Huddersfield all mainly being quite cautious in their approach, it shows that even playing that way doesnt mean survival so why not try another way if / once you get there, thats why i hope our new manager has a new squad and create a new identity for us.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 12:44:24 PM by Albion79 »