WestBrom.com
Off Topic => General Football & Sports => Topic started by: LiamTheBaggie on December 16, 2020, 05:28:39 PM
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https://www.wba.co.uk/news/albion-appoint-sam-allardyce
Official thread following his appointment
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If we lose to Villa do we get to call for his head?
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This remind you of anyone?
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/west-hams-biggest-strength-allardyces-tactical-flexibility
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I'll give him a chance, but I really think I'm done with it all now!
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Will work in his favour the fans aren't around for now. Couple of decent wins and people will soon be won round.
Reminds me very much of us getting Hodgson back in 2011. Glamourous no, but still not as bad as Pulis. His sides are direct but his sides have always had some flair. Certainly I can't imagine we'll much worse attacking wise than we are right now. Hopefully a lot better defensively.
I like Bilic very much as a person but he was clearly going to get us relegated. Decent chance that still happens given the situation we're in, but Allardyce is one if not the only option who could keep such a limited side up. Only by staying up for a couple of seasons can we build an actually premier league quality side. Something we're a long way from at the moment.
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If he does a number on the vile then I suspect that many will think that he is the new messiah............
Not happy but its done, so all we can do is get behind the team.
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None of this is brilliant by any means but i feel that we have more chance of staying up under Big Sam than Bilic, I saw nothing from Bilic to say that we had any chance whatsoever..
It’s not going to be pretty but unfortunately that’s more down to our lack of finances and maybe a more rigid style is the only chance we have. Also I would say that Big Sams style is more of a Hodgson style more than a Pulis.
Feel sorry for Bilic but at the end of the day it’s a results business but there is a way to conduct business and I believe Albion have done this poorly.
For the first time I actually think we could have a go at staying up and be there or there about come May
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Will work in his favour the fans aren't around for now. Couple of decent wins and people will soon be won round.
Reminds me very much of us getting Hodgson back in 2011. Glamourous no, but still not as bad as Pulis. His sides are direct but his sides have always had some flair. Certainly I can't imagine we'll much worse attacking wise than we are right now. Hopefully a lot better defensively.
I like Bilic very much as a person but he was clearly going to get us relegated. Decent chance that still happens given the situation we're in, but Allardyce is one if not the only option who could keep such a limited side up. Only by staying up for a couple of seasons can we build an actually premier league quality side. Something we're a long way from at the moment.
Thats a good point re Hodgson. He's looked back on very fondly but this board wasnt happy when he was appointed... If I remember correctly. Time will tell. At least I know we won't limp and Potter into relegation now
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Welcome to the club Sam. Not my first choice but i genuinely believe you have a chance of keeping us up.
If i win in the ticket ballot for the Villa game i'll be there offering full support.
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Not happy at all. We need Lai and his cronies gone ASAP
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FFS Welcome Fat Sam Good luck mate I'll back him but if we just try to do Pulis I won't If I started seeing 6 at the back 3 right in front of them and 1 Striker located on the Brummie Road then I'll give up hope
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Will work in his favour the fans aren't around for now. Couple of decent wins and people will soon be won round.
Reminds me very much of us getting Hodgson back in 2011. Glamourous no, but still not as bad as Pulis. His sides are direct but his sides have always had some flair. Certainly I can't imagine we'll much worse attacking wise than we are right now. Hopefully a lot better defensively.
I like Bilic very much as a person but he was clearly going to get us relegated. Decent chance that still happens given the situation we're in, but Allardyce is one if not the only option who could keep such a limited side up. Only by staying up for a couple of seasons can we build an actually premier league quality side. Something we're a long way from at the moment.
He could win the league and cup double and I still wouldn't be won round. The man is a slug.
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Thats a good point re Hodgson. He's looked back on very fondly but this board wasnt happy when he was appointed... If I remember correctly. Time will tell. At least I know we won't limp and Potter into relegation now
Albion fans are not known for their positivity let's be honest. Some would rather see the club nosedive playing pretty football or being in the top half of the EFL with little thought to the clubs long term sustainability just so long as they are happy.
Lai is NOT my favourite person by a long long way but WBA will exist or must exist rather, long after he, i and you are gone.
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No patience for this whatsoever. I will need a lot of convincing.
Three points for me a must on Sunday; then I'll rethink my stance.
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Ashamed of WBA FC for the first time in my life
Disgraceful appointment
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I am as angry as the day Irvine was appointed. >:(
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Disgraceful!
I have been a supporter of West Bromwich Albion since the 1950’s but I refuse to spend a single penny at my Club until the ownership have long gone.
The behaviour of the management and owners is so very disgusting and on top of that, they go and appoint Allardyce who is a dinosaur with his Pulis type tactics.
A swift return to the Championship. A sad day.
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I am as angry as the day Irvine was appointed. >:(
How?
We got a bloke who has made a living out of these situations, totally opposite to Irvine. If you’re happy to go down without a whimper like we have seen was going to happen the last 3 months then fair enough.
Now we are here I’d rather have a go at it
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Allardyce isn’t like Pulis, more of a Hodgson type. He didn’t do too bad.
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My mate an Ipswich fan sent me this, sums it up, the club is a joke
Congratulations on your new WBA appointment.....that is funny!
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My mate an Ipswich fan sent me this, sums it up, the club is a joke
Congratulations on your new WBA appointment.....that is funny!
Don’t think an Ipswich fan can be one to comment to be honest ;D
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Can anyone remember us binning a manager and announcing the replacement on the same day before?
One thing you you can say about this is at least they haven't dithered about for weeks with a hapless caretaker. Still I guess some will still complain but hey ho, might as well make the best of it. I'm no huge fan but it really could have been worse.
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It will at least be interesting to see what sort of side SA comes up with out of our present squad.
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A desperate and retrograde panic measure from a clueless and visionless owner/Board who have no idea how to successfully run a football club and just make up strategies on the hoof.
Stay up at any cost? I'd rather we went down if it helps to perpetuate the ultimate demise of football dinosaurs. Staying up this season would just be delaying the inevitable with the clowns we have running the club anyway.
Once again my club has been taken away from me for awhile, just like the day Pulis arrived.
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I don’t think he’s very much like Pulis at all. He’s certainly a pragmatist, but a much more progressive coach. I don’t understand the hate and it won’t help our club.
My concerns are about his age (past his sell-by date?), his time out of the game, his hunger for the fight and above all the very poor material he has to work with.
He has wrongly and lazily been labelled another Pulis or a “dinosaur†imho when his record and reputation within the game is of a thoughtful and capable coach.
Albion were going once way with Bilic and it’s the right decision in my view to roll the dice. He’s probably the best they could do in the circumstances, but if he manages to fashion a team good enough from what we have I will be mightily surprised and hugely impressed (and grateful).
His first job was at Albion (sacked with Talbot) and this could be his last. Let’s hope it’s a great success.
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I'm no huge fan but it really could have been worse.
Well, here's the thing. I am. And I'm not sure it could have been, but we'll have to see.
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I'll give him a chance, not my cup of tea, more Hodgson than Pulis as others have said. It will be very interesting to see the team he puts out at the weekend, expecting a flat back four for starters.
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"He guided the "Toffees" to a seven-game unbeaten run at the start of his tenure, a spell which included five clean sheets. Having steadied the defence, he stated that his next task was to bring in a consistent goalscorer. Everton ended the season in eighth-position, but fans were dissatisfied with the style of play. Whilst under Allardyce's management, Everton were ranked 20th for total shots, 19th for total shots on target, 16th for passing accuracy and 17th for shots faced in the Premier League. Allardyce left the club on 16 May 2018"
He's more of a Pulis than a Hodgson, don't kid yourselves.
And just to reiterate, this was a team that had Wayne Rooney, Pickford, Sigurðsson, Tosun and Walcott in it and had previously spent near enough £170 million on it in the summer.
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Underwhelmed but might just be the medicine we need to see the back of Lai.
Smacks of short term thinking but his record speaks for itself. Trust Albion to be the only club he gets relegated with!
Welcome Big Sam. You’ve got some job to win us over but good luck.
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I’m not really sure what to think - I’m disappointed that we’ve reverted to someone like Big Sam as it just shows such a short term thinking from the club really. No desire to build or improve anything and happy to tread water.
In terms of our safety then he’s probably one of the better options available to us - he will make us hard to beat, we will be organised and that is probably the blue print to our survival with this crop of players.
Hopefully in the mean time the owners receive an offer that sees them leave the club.
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Its not Mark Hughes so thats one plus point , personally don't think he's anything like Pulis at his worst so will reserve judgement on Allardyce just yet .
He's had some good midfielders in his time so i hope he can get a tune out of ours.
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A desperate and retrograde panic measure from a clueless and visionless owner/Board who have no idea how to successfully run a football club and just make up strategies on the hoof.
Stay up at any cost? I'd rather we went down if it helps to perpetuate the ultimate demise of football dinosaurs. Staying up this season would just be delaying the inevitable with the clowns we have running the club anyway.
Once again my club has been taken away from me for awhile, just like the day Pulis arrived.
Your club as not been taken away from you. That is your choice to abandon your club no one else's. Am i happy no will i abandon club no! Do i want Sam to succeed? Of course i do that means Albion succeed if he fails our club fails.
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Just what I’ve seen over the years, i take it you don’t agree? :o
Just out of interest, when was the last time you think he did a decent job and made a positive impact? He wasn't kept around at Everton, Palace he walked out on and had spent £30m in a Jan transfer window, England he was sacked for being involved in dodgy dealings, He kept Sunderland up, luckily - he started the season with 12 pts from 19 games. and the football was awful. West Ham fans wanted him gone for his spending and style of football even when they were 3rd in the Championship. They even had to bring back Teddy Sheringham to try and keep the fans onside as an "attacking coach".
He's genuinely a more media friendly Pulis and that's about it.
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Your club as not been taken away from you. That is your choice to abandon your club no one else's. Am i happy no will i abandon club no! Do i want Sam to succeed? Of course i do that means Albion succeed if he fails our club fails.
Big Sam wouldn't have been my choice but you are bang on Albion59 , there were worse names linked imo too.
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Albion59 is spot on.
It's all a bit dramatic this club has been lost to me forever business. When Pulis took over I didnt renew my season ticket until he left. I still supported Albion and he was the right person for the job, at the time, for our position. I simply watched on TV.
When I wanted, I came back.
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Wonder how long the talks were going on behind Slav's back? This was not a 5 minute jobby!
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Your club as not been taken away from you. That is your choice to abandon your club no one else's. Am i happy no will i abandon club no! Do i want Sam to succeed? Of course i do that means Albion succeed if he fails our club fails.
Agree with this Albion59
All the club taken away, not following the club posts are a bit of an exaggeration really.
He’s the best of a bad bunch.
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Seems im in the minority here but ill welcome this appointment to get some real structure and solidity in our backline. Yes last night was a very good point and we looked a lot more solid but so far this season its been woeful watching our defending. I think we'll become harder to beat and it'll be exactly what we need. It doesn't detract from the shambolic structure and timing from those at the top, however. This may have been more fitting after losing to newcastle.
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I’m not really sure what to think - I’m disappointed that we’ve reverted to someone like Big Sam as it just shows such a short term thinking from the club really. No desire to build or improve anything and happy to tread water.
In terms of our safety then he’s probably one of the better options available to us - he will make us hard to beat, we will be organised and that is probably the blue print to our survival with this crop of players.
Hopefully in the mean time the owners receive an offer that sees them leave the club.
How can he get us hard to beat though? He's still got to pick between Ajayi, Bartley and Ivanovic. O'Shea and Townsend both struggle positionally. Our best options at LB\RB are still Furlong and Gibbs. We don't have a DM sitting on the bench screaming out to play so it's still going to be Sawyers\Livermore\Gallagher etc.
Basically, I don't see any massive changes to the team that Allardyce can bring and if he's going to shore up the defence it's just going to mean hoofball and sitting on the edge of our box.
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Pulis made me fall out of love with West brom. It took awhile to get the passion back. Moore and Bilic got that back. Now I feel Sam will drag me back to the dark days. I hope he proves me wrong...
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How can he get us hard to beat though? He's still got to pick between Ajayi, Bartley and Ivanovic. O'Shea and Townsend both struggle positionally. Our best options at LB\RB are still Furlong and Gibbs. We don't have a DM sitting on the bench screaming out to play so it's still going to be Sawyers\Livermore\Gallagher etc.
Basically, I don't see any massive changes to the team that Allardyce can bring and if he's going to shore up the defence it's just going to mean hoofball and sitting on the edge of our box.
We've shown against big teams we can set up and defend properly , its the lesser sides it fell to pieces under Bilic.
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How can he get us hard to beat though? He's still got to pick between Ajayi, Bartley and Ivanovic. O'Shea and Townsend both struggle positionally. Our best options at LB\RB are still Furlong and Gibbs. We don't have a DM sitting on the bench screaming out to play so it's still going to be Sawyers\Livermore\Gallagher etc.
Basically, I don't see any massive changes to the team that Allardyce can bring and if he's going to shore up the defence it's just going to mean hoofball and sitting on the edge of our box.
More than likely he brings in a "roughhouse" DM on loan free in Jan?
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Nothing like a good managerial drama to bring out the pants wetting.
From 1 to Pulis, Big Sam is about a 6 (Hodgson about a 5) - The fact of the matter is we have more chance of staying up with him than Bilic so let him get on with it. (and I say that as someone who really likes Bilic and what he's about)
Would I choose Sam? no, but it's No good looking pretty if you go down anyway is it?
Those of you saying it's a panic appointment with no direction need to engage your brains a bit beyond what has happened today (which has of course, been poorly handled given yesterdays result), The fact they appointed him straight away and we didn't faf about for 3-4-5 weeks means that it's been discussed for quite some time and it's not a snap decision.
Entertainment value dropping aside (that wont be anywhere near as bad as Pulis anyway) this is potentially better for us mid to long term - Sam has a chance to stabilise us which would mean we look more enticing to would be new owners sniffing about. The American consortium we were linked with are more likely to commit to a club showing that they are likely to be in the prem next season than not, we all know this.
This could very well be the first solid stepping stone to a Lai exit and we just need to see how things pan out over the next few weeks and months.
Will it be super entertaining? no. But nothing is more depressing than watching us get spanked every week which in the main is what has been happening so far this season.
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More than likely he brings in a "roughhouse" DM on loan free in Jan?
No such thing as free any more. Any incomings will be dependent on us moving on Austin, Grosicki etc
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I cannot welcome you Sam. The sooner you are sacked the better. A disgraceful appointment
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We've shown against big teams we can set up and defend properly , its the lesser sides it fell to pieces under Bilic.
I agree - but that's because we set up to park the bus surely? Are we gong to be happy to see us parking the bus in every game?
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Well I dont agree with the slav decision but no point crying over spilt milk I guess.
Big Sam is a pragmatist hopefully closer to roy than pulis. In his positions he has had some flair players did he have okocha and djorkaeff at bolton? He took the up consolidated them and even got them into europe and always had a go at the cups?
Now if our manager tries to win games and targets the cups and tries to get our club Europe that's all I can hope for. Cup success is about all a club like ours can ever manage.
He has been in charge of blackburn when they were in a right old mess and did a good job. Newcastle and west ham ain't easy jobs poor owners high expectations and he didnt do badly at either.
He signed van annolt sclupp and milojevik (spelling unsure) all 3 are still mainstays and used by Hodgson even now.
He signed nzonzi at Blackburn, diame and creswell to west ham viduka at newcastle. Okocha at bolton so big sam not afraid to buy from abroad and happy to buy in talent.
I will give the guy a go and hope that Mr Lai sells soon.
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How can he get us hard to beat though?
I think it’s quite simple really. It’s similar to what you witnessed last night.
The team will be drilled defensively in a similar vein to what Hodgson delivered back in 2011.
It has been quite clear that we have been defensively awful under Bilic this season - Allardyce will strip us back to basics, assign simplistic roles to players, drill us to be organised in a similar vein to what we’ve seen last night.
It’s safe to say that under Big Sam we will not see the likes of Crystal PLace turning up to The Hawthorns and putting 5 past us. Granted we will lose football matches but I do not think we will see the defensive horror show that we’ve seen this season.
With the likes of Grant, Robinson, Diangana and Pereira we least have some counter attacking threat.
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No such thing as free any more. Any incomings will be dependent on us moving on Austin, Grosicki etc
Grosicki will go in my view possibly others.
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Every single club Sam has managed since Bolton have being very vociferous in their hate for his style of football.
"Won't be as bad as Pulis"
Maybe it won't, but that's only because he doesn't have the players yet that he can just hoof it up to.
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I agree - but that's because we set up to park the bus surely? Are we gong to be happy to see us parking the bus in every game?
Theres a thin line between parking the bus and defending well by having a threat , the money difference in this league makes that our only option really .
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No such thing as free any more. Any incomings will be dependent on us moving on Austin, Grosicki etc
Austin maybe, but Grosicki may find himself back in favour.
I do expect SA has been given some assurances about a budget though. I don't imagine it will be huge, but i suspect there will be something available for him. If he has been keeping abreast of football, I imagine he will already have a few players in mind.
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I agree - but that's because we set up to park the bus surely? Are we gong to be happy to see us parking the bus in every game?
Well it’s going to be a damn sight better than watching us get turned over every bloody week.
Some of it will be ugly, some of it will be good.
Those really harping on about entertaining football are confusing me really as we’ve seen nothing this season that can be considered neither competitive nor entertaining under Bilic.
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Well it’s going to be a damn sight better than watching us get turned over every bloody week.
Some of it will be ugly, some of it will be good.
Those really harping on about entertaining football are confusing me really as we’ve seen nothing this season that can be considered neither competitive nor entertaining under Bilic.
I'm also finding it very odd. We have 10 goals from 13 games, which averages out at 29-30 goals a season. Only 5 goals in our last 10. And you could hardly say we've deserved to score much more. We're actually the only team in the bottom 7 exceeding our expected goals, which is just 7.5. Despite conceding by far the most goals in the league alongside this.
Yet to read on here you'd thimk we're the great entertainers of the league.
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Oh well I hope I'm wrong but I think we're going backwards as well as downwards!
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Theres a lot more than can be discussed but very simply put imo we had no realistic chance of getting the points required under Slav to stay up, under Big Sam i immediately feel like we have a realistic chance of doing so and expect us to pick points up straight away.
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The silver lining to take from this for me is I now expect some significant movement on players in January.
Allerdyce is unlikely to have agreed to have come in without some commitments to strengthening the squad. Maybe Lai and Dowling have made some of the £15m covid reserve available to bring in bodies.
Probably a blessing on disguise that the crowds aren't back. The fact he's a wulf means he'd be turned on pretty quick.
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He signed nzonzi at Blackburn, diame and creswell to west ham viduka at newcastle. Okocha at bolton so big sam not afraid to buy from abroad and happy to buy in talent.
Bilic wasn't afraid to buy talent either.
Lai was.
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Albion59 is spot on.
It's all a bit dramatic this club has been lost to me forever business. When Pulis took over I didnt renew my season ticket until he left. I still supported Albion and he was the right person for the job, at the time, for our position. I simply watched on TV.
When I wanted, I came back.
When Pulis became manager i used to go home and away. We went to Watford it was the worst football i had ever seen i said to my mate at half time don't ask me to come to another away game again while he is in charge! My next away game was Spurs away at Wembley a week after he went! Don't expect ut to be that bad under big Sam.
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Bilic wasn't afraid to buy talent either.
Lai was.
Which one of Slav’s talented signing have shown anything this season?
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Well I dont agree with the slav decision but no point crying over spilt milk I guess.
Big Sam is a pragmatist hopefully closer to roy than pulis. In his positions he has had some flair players did he have okocha and djorkaeff at bolton? He took the up consolidated them and even got them into europe and always had a go at the cups?
Now if our manager tries to win games and targets the cups and tries to get our club Europe that's all I can hope for. Cup success is about all a club like ours can ever manage.
He has been in charge of blackburn when they were in a right old mess and did a good job. Newcastle and west ham ain't easy jobs poor owners high expectations and he didnt do badly at either.
He signed van annolt sclupp and milojevik (spelling unsure) all 3 are still mainstays and used by Hodgson even now.
He signed nzonzi at Blackburn, diame and creswell to west ham viduka at newcastle. Okocha at bolton so big sam not afraid to buy from abroad and happy to buy in talent.
I will give the guy a go and hope that Mr Lai sells soon.
And Anelka in his prime too
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Albion59 it feels people feel entitled to have their exact version of what they want exactly to happen at the club but we are fans. We have little say.
I supported the decision to appoint Pulis because it was right for the club. I couldn't watch it week in week out so I simply stopped going to the Hawthorns. The club should always come first. I missed not going but it was a means to an end for the club and more important than me sulking because of Pulisball.
Sam definitely will not be as bad as Pulis. You are right again there
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Think Sam's going to love VAR, it's changed a lot since he was last at the sharp end.
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The comments about not being as bad as Pulis are setting the bar very low indeed. Is that really what you will be happy with? Not as bad as Pulis?
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Sam Allardyce was good enough for England only 4 years ago . If he had kept quiet then he may well still be manager of the team .
Good enough for England , good enough for WBA .
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The comments about not being as bad as Pulis are setting the bar very low indeed. Is that really what you will be happy with? Not as bad as Pulis?
If it keeps us up and the club financially sound then for me it's a yes.
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David Moyes's success with spam probably a factor in going after Sam. Not my ideal candidate would have liked Howe but in Dowlings brief it had to be a coach with experience of getting out of trouble.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
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It was mentioned on Twitter the board wanted to get him in ASAP before other clubs started sacking their managers. Those clubs would almost certainly turn to Allardyce because he's No.1 firefighter supreme that's available.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
I thought i was the only one who believed in this appointment .
Looking forward to watching the upcoming matches with a **Glimmer ** of hope rather than wishful thinking .
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When Pulis became manager i used to go home and away. We went to Watford it was the worst football i had ever seen i said to my mate at half time don't ask me to come to another away game again while he is in charge! My next away game was Spurs away at Wembley a week after he went! Don't expect ut to be that bad under big Sam.
If Watford away under Pulis was your worst exeprience you got away light, trust me, things got a whole lot worse.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
Glad I’m not the only one, it’s a shame Slav has gone but the correct one for club.
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I’ve talked myself around on Allardyce I think he’s more in the Roy mold rather than Pulis & let’s be honest if we announced Roy today everyone would be delighted. I think we have a better chance of staying up with Allardyce I still don’t think he keeps this team up though, I just don’t see 3 teams worse than we are even with Allardyce in charge.
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We can't outplay teams at this level without massive investment in the squad. Its just not going to happen.
Allardyce is not Pulis. Pulis was the extreme. Allardyce will evaluate the squad and work on its weaknesses and make us hard to beat. That's exactly what we need right now.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
Just hope it's about 3 places higher in the league than where we are now.
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There is nothing to recommend this appointment at all. The sooner he is gone the better it is not until the short term fix fails that we will reappraise our approach. Maybe it needs new ownership for that to happen but it is wishful thinking that Allardyce saving our bacon this season will expediate that situation.
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I'll back him or try to I don't particularly want him or like him I beleive Billic could have started a turn around. Anyway Allardyce is here now he can try to bring some stability I think Sam will know we don't particularly want him but none of what has happened is his fault. We have deeper issues at the core that could give Allardyce no particular reason to stay around. Eg Billic wanted players who we never got, he had less money than expected, he had a player sold who he was told was staying. Lai is the ultimate problem in this I beleive from what I have heard Dowling wanted and liked Billic and wanted to back him and for him to stay or if not him other senior people did however Lai didn't. Lai had possibly expressed interest in getting rid of Billic and Dowling had to try and find someone he knew would keep Lai happy eg Low Matinence and Stable and well this is the awnser.
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Horrible bloke, first time ever I’ve wished for a manager’s departure on the day he was appointed, Mr Brown Envelope. Never thought that our once great club could sink so low, despicable management.
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Knowing the Albion they probably thought they were getting Sean Dyche ;D
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Didnt want Slav gone
Didnt want Sam
But will support him like I've done with every manager in my time following us from Gould to Slav and will judge him on results and performances
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There is nothing to recommend this appointment at all. The sooner he is gone the better it is not until the short term fix fails that we will reappraise our approach. Maybe it needs new ownership for that to happen but it is wishful thinking that Allardyce saving our bacon this season will expediate that situation.
You might be right, but the club is more attractive to a buyer (certainly for the sum that GL allegedly wants) as an EPL club.
I know we don't know a lot about GL or his associates, but it's pretty clear that without a sale we're going to stagnate.
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I would have probably got rid of Slav sooner,I think the club take a lot of stick but at least they have acted and then acted again quickly, thus showing they have taken some consideration.
There are plenty on here comparing the new manager to Pulis, but Amelia,Okacha , Djorkaef (spelling) and others played proper football..
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Horrible bloke, first time ever I’ve wished for a manager’s departure on the day he was appointed, Mr Brown Envelope. Never thought that our once great club could sink so low, despicable management.
Not even Saunders, Gould, Little, Irvine, Pulis or Pardew? The only one of those I wanted appointed at the time was Pulis, and even then only until the end of the season.
Hand on heart I'd have been more than happy to see Saunders, Gould, Little and Pardew sit down for their press conferences, stand straight up, say goodbye and walk out the door they came in.
Irvine had a pass as for the life of me I couldn't remember who he was and I confused him with Craig Levein. I was so happy we hadn't appointed Levein I couldn't think badly of Irvine on the same day ;D .
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Horrible bloke, first time ever I’ve wished for a manager’s departure on the day he was appointed, Mr Brown Envelope. Never thought that our once great club could sink so low, despicable management.
Well thanks for giving me a chuckle on an otherwise miserable day.
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For all those who clamoured for Bilic to be sacked, the question forum rules prevented them answering was who they wanted as replacement. Well now they have got what they wished for.
I don’t care where we finish in the league because I can say for a fact that the soul of our club has been weakened again dramatically. What else do we need but Allardyce football to finish off an awful year.
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He'll have an immediate impact which will enable us to keep in touch with those above us. After that it's down to the backing he gets from the owners.It's unlikely to be pretty but there's a fighting chance of staying up.
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He'll have an immediate impact which will enable us to keep in touch with those above us. After that it's down to the backing he gets from the owners.It's unlikely to be pretty but there's a fighting chance of staying up.
The players have lost a manager they loved playing for. It’s not guaranteed that we get a lift from this.
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For all those who clamoured for Bilic to be sacked, the question forum rules prevented them answering was who they wanted as replacement. Well now they have got what they wished for.
I don’t care where we finish in the league because I can say for a fact that the soul of our club has been weakened again dramatically. What else do we need but Allardyce football to finish off an awful year.
Today's events take "Be careful what you wish for" to another level.
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The players have lost a manager they loved playing for. It’s not guaranteed that we get a lift from this.
Exactly this. We will find out soon enough. Though I can anticipate the "immediate lift" comments if we win, and the "he's only been here a few days" comments if we lose.
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Apart from Pulis where I learned my lesson I have never wanted a manager out as I knew we would end up with same old British Manager
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I’m looking forward to Villa at home this Sunday evening already.
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I’m looking forward to Villa at home this Sunday evening already.
Good for you.
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The players have lost a manager they loved playing for. It’s not guaranteed that we get a lift from this.
Apparently so for the most part. Just a pity several among them didn't love him enough to track runners, get tackles in, make stronger aerial challenges, commit to crosses or find their team mates with that round thing more often. His tactics weren't always the best and neither were his selections or substitutions, but player application wasn't always on point either. For the record I'd have been quite happy for the players to have expressed their love for Slaven with in game concentration and for him to then to stay in post. Whatever Allardici brings let's hope the players at least like him enough to apply themselves like last night on a more consistent basis.
Roll on Sunday and SOTV 8) .
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The players have lost a manager they loved playing for. It’s not guaranteed that we get a lift from this.
It’s alright them saying that, but it stinks of only words when you look at the second half against Palace
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If Watford away under Pulis was your worst exeprience you got away light, trust me, things got a whole lot worse.
I'm only on about missing away games. I still saw all the dross at the Albion!
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It’s alright them saying that, but it stinks of only words when you look at the second half against Palace
Maybe. But prepare for some more shocking football again from the outset. I thought the days of time wasting 5 minutes into a game with Pulis were over but it seems not.
I don’t care anymore.
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I'm only on about missing away games. I still saw all the dross at the Albion!
You still got away light ;) .
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He will keep us up.
Lai will sell out to an American group.
New owners will pay Sams contract up and appoint their own choice.
Happy days.
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He will keep us up.
Lai will sell out to an American group.
New owners will pay Sams contract up and appoint their own choice.
Happy days.
Sounds good to me 👍🏻
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Horrible bloke, first time ever I’ve wished for a manager’s departure on the day he was appointed, Mr Brown Envelope. Never thought that our once great club could sink so low, despicable management.
Nailed it here mate. I am hoping his tenure at the Albion is precisely as long and as successful as his was with England. One game, beat the seals, and gone. Anyone got a spare pint of wine and a dodgy recording device?
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Not wanted and not welcome horrible bloke people have short memories on what he said about the club previously. Totally ashamed of the club and fuming with how Dowling and Lai are destroying the club once again. It took big Dave and Billic over 2 years to repair the damage between the club and fans and they have destroyed it in 1 day.
Couldn’t care less about the season now not even going to bother watching on Sunday.
I want all 3 gone and soon
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I would have probably got rid of Slav sooner,I think the club take a lot of stick but at least they have acted and then acted again quickly, thus showing they have taken some consideration.
There are plenty on here comparing the new manager to Pulis, but Amelia,Okacha , Djorkaef (spelling) and others played proper football..
Mate those players you mentioned it was 15/20 years ago.The games changed massively since he last managed
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Pretty obvious Lai is protecting his investment. He wants to sell and we’re worth more in the Premier League. If Sam keeps us up, Lai sells to the American consortium, Sam gets a bonus for keeping us up and another 12 month payoff given he’s signed an 18 month contract when the new owners bring a new head coach in. If we get relegated, Lai may or may not sell but if he does it’s for a lot less, Sam leaves, no bonus for keeping us up but he does get a 12 month payoff for signing an 18 month contract.
Either way you look at it, this is a 6 month appointment to get us to a sale. Hopefully we’re still in the Premier League and appointing Sam gives it a chance of happening even though it might not be pretty.
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I despise Allardyce & his prehistoric brand of ‘football’
I hate this club at the moment. >:(
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Question is, how will the players react?
Given their obvious fondness for Slav and the relationship they had, will heads have dropped that effects performance.
Allardyce, will never get as close to the team as Slav has over the last year and a half.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
Exactly my thoughts. I struggle to comprehend peoples beef.
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I cannot welcome you Sam. The sooner you are sacked the better. A disgraceful appointment
I take the opposite view, Like you i am dismayed that Slav has gone. Even more dismayed at the way it was done and the fact it was leaked but I wish Allardyce all the best at my club and hope he ends up as manger of the year and we have two or three players in the premier league team of the season.
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I'm chuffed with this appointment. To me the decisions made today have given us the best chance to stay in this league.
I firmly believe that Sam will leave us in a better position than we are currently.
I’m pleased with this appointment. I’m also sad that a decent man has lost his job.
But I firmly believe this is the right decision. There’s a lot of emotion on here, and that’s what supporting a club is about. Supporting a football team doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
But I disagree that Bilic had us playing marvellous, attacking football in the best of Albion traditions - where has it been for the past 12 months? I think this is pure emotion and wishful thinking over reality.
There was no real sign of him turning results around in the Championship for months after Christmas, and I very much doubt he’d have been successful next season. The results this season have been awful - the defence is a shambles (and was for much of last season) and we aren’t exactly scoring many at the other end.
What was absolutely certain was that Albion were going down with Bilic in charge. Not the slightest doubt.
I can’t see that there was obviously a better option than Allardyce, unless we gambled big time and got incredibly lucky with a left-field appointment. He’s an excellent, experienced coach and I disagree completely with all this stuff about dinosaurs and hoof ball. He’s a pragmatist - every successful manager is, otherwise they get sacked pretty fast. He’s far from a fool, and has spent most of the past 30 years in the company of some of the best minds in the game. It’s insulting to suggest he hasn’t ever thought about how best to play the game beyond booting it in the style of Wing Commander Reap. He’s a professional who’s operated successfully at the highest levels of the game for decades.
We simply don’t have the players to employ a beautiful, rolling attacking game in the Premier League, and we can’t afford them. And I fear Allardyce has a much tougher job than Roy Hodgson, who wasn’t working with such a poor team.
I wouldn’t spend two seconds worrying about who players say they like playing for - it worries me a bit when they say they like the manager. Players naturally look out for themselves and getting the next contract or move, whoever’s in charge.
I do have doubts about Allardyce’s age, his hunger for the fight and above all the poor squad he has to work with. But this is a sensible roll of the dice, and though I still think the odds are massively against us, this gives us a bit more of a chance of success.
I think this was a sensible decision, and I hope fans will at least give it a chance to work.
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Exactly my thoughts. I struggle to comprehend peoples beef.
Really? Really? Nothing else to add, lol.
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Not wanted and not welcome horrible bloke people have short memories on what he said about the club previously. Totally ashamed of the club and fuming with how Dowling and Lai are destroying the club once again. It took big Dave and Billic over 2 years to repair the damage between the club and fans and they have destroyed it in 1 day.
Couldn’t care less about the season now not even going to bother watching on Sunday.
I want all 3 gone and soon
Well he obviously is wanted he's the new manager!
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Well he obviously is wanted he's the new manager!
Indeed, wanted by the idiots who run the asylum.
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Well he obviously is wanted he's the new manager!
I want him and I want us to give him a chance.
We had no chance with Bilic. The results and the performances prove it.
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With all the fans on here who are not going again and having their money back and so on, one good thing will come out of it. We won't need a ballot for tickets there will be plenty ;)
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I’ve no real issue with Sam coming in.
Not sure why others do either.
I’ll give him his chance, I support the club, not the current manager.
My first choice as our boss? No. But he’s pragmatic and will get us fighting.
I’m sad Slav lost his job but there is no time for sentiment in this game.
Welcome Sam and good luck
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You’re welcome to them, some of us don’t want to give the despised owners the impression that we approve of Allardyce or have any wish to suffer watching his garbage.
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You’re welcome to them, some of us don’t want to give the despised owners the impression that we approve of Allardyce or have any wish to suffer watching his garbage.
you might despise the owners you might not approve of Allardyce but it's my club and it doesn't matter who the owner is it doesn't matter who the manager is it will always be my club and i will always support my club. Like i have done all my life i am still here i will always be there players, managers and owners come and go it's life fans will always be there. Well some of us will.
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I’ve finally found a positive thought about the appointment of this detestable, horrible person. I won’t feel too depressed after a defeat as it’ll be one step closer to his sacking.
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You’re welcome to them, some of us don’t want to give the despised owners the impression that we approve of Allardyce or have any wish to suffer watching his garbage.
Do the people welcoming him to our club actually know about the history of the man? Good grief.
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I’ve finally found a positive thought about the appointment of this detestable, horrible person. I won’t feel too depressed after a defeat as it’ll be one step closer to his sacking.
Have you met him? Do you know him? No i thought not. How can any Albion supporter want us to lose ever? Some unbelievable comments on here today no not unbelievable disgusting comments. I thought this site wss better than this. Some of the comments are bordering on slander.
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Have you met him? Do you know him? No i thought not. How can any Albion supporter want us to lose ever? Some unbelievable comments on here today no not unbelievable disgusting comments. I thought this site wss better than this. Some of the comments are bordering on slander.
I doubt any fans want us to lose me included, however many of us will be happier when he’s gone.
And yes I have met him.
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I doubt any fans want us to lose me included, however many of us will be happier when he’s gone.
And yes I have met him.
I have met him aswell but i didn't ask you if you had met him. So not really interested.
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With all the fans on here who are not going again and having their money back and so on, one good thing will come out of it. We won't need a ballot for tickets there will be plenty ;)
Keep the tickets I will not even bother watching it on TV... it helps the argument on if we should increase the hawthorns capacity ... gone back 2 years to the pullis Pardew era and the fans hatred of the board. At least losing will not hurt like it did can’t wait for the season to finish.
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Call me naive, but I didn't realise appointing Dingle Sam guaranteed survival. Thanks for informing me, those who have posted with such clarity.
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What’s this ‘Albion Way of playing’ I have been seeing on social media?
The only time anyone under the age of 60 can say they have seen us play what’s known as great football would have been a few years late 70s early 80s, 1 season in division 3 and 2 years under Mowbray in the championship.
Deluded some folk.
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Divided fans in less than 24 hours.
Being generous, 20% for Allardyce 80% for Bilic and against owners/management.
Happy Pulis type days are back!
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Keep the tickets I will not even bother watching it on TV... it helps the argument on if we should increase the hawthorns capacity ... gone back 2 years to the pullis Pardew era and the fans hatred of the board. At least losing will not hurt like it did can’t wait for the season to finish.
We couldn't fill the ground anyway. It might not hurt you as much but it will me especially if we lose to the vile but i'm guessing you want us to lose that one so you can come on here Sunday night slagging everyone and everything off.
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I want him and I want us to give him a chance.
We had no chance with Bilic. The results and the performances prove it.
You’re right in what you say ttree30, Sam Allardyce deserves to be given a chance. Like all managers of our club deserve.
And yes, we had no chance with Bilić either. Went on for far too long.
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I'm in two minds do I like the way the club is going no
Do I like Allardyce No am I particularly for him no I would have Billic in charge
Do I like the board no there to blaim they should back Billic and have stuck to the two year plan. We never follow these plans so is there any point in them?
Do I particular think Billic should be gone no but he probably would have walked
But Again I will try to back Allardyce as long as we show something that doesn't hark back to the dark days of Pullis and Pardew I am happy. So good luck Sam. I will still hold Billic high in my memories of being an Albion Fan he brought us out of the dark days with Big Dave in a way. Allardyce can only try to keep us up. I don't think he particularly wants to be here knowing that Albion Fans don't like him as long as he does what he was brought in for keeping us up so Mr Lai can sell us and we can bring back Billic or at least someone who has fresh ideas maybe and rebuild properly I'll be happy with that.
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I doubt any fans want us to lose me included, however many of us will be happier when he’s gone.
And yes I have met him.
And I’ve met him too. He just seemed an ordinary sort of bloke who’s made a very successful career in professional football. He was friendly and approachable. I understand people have strong feelings and everyone’s entitled to an opinion but many of the comments on here are libellous.
He’s managed over 1,000 games, hundreds of them at the highest level and averaged around 40% win percentage despite often operating with smaller clubs in the big boys league.
I realise a lot of us really liked Bilic, but the reaction of some against Allardyce doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. This team is playing poorly and is going down - and there’s plentiful evidence that we’d keep sinking under Bilic. We’ve been sinking for a whole year and this mythical “style of play†feels related more to the fact we like the man, than to the evidence in front of our eyes.
This change was absolutely necessary and it’s a pragmatic, sensible choice - in the likely event we still go down, I’d take some persuading that Bilic would have done better.
Welcome Sam. And good luck - you’ll need it.
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At least one of the transfers is sorted for January....Kevin Nolan incoming :)
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What’s this ‘Albion Way of playing’ I have been seeing on social media?
The only time anyone under the age of 60 can say they have seen us play what’s known as great football would have been a few years late 70s early 80s, 1 season in division 3 and 2 years under Mowbray in the championship.
Deluded some folk.
Correct Lee 👏🏻
Our consistent mid-table finishes in the Premier League have come from having managers like Hodgson and Pulis. Highly organised and not playing this ‘Albion way’. I expect the same under Big Sam. I think the harsh reality is it’s our identity at this level.
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Have you met him? Do you know him? No i thought not. How can any Albion supporter want us to lose ever? Some unbelievable comments on here today no not unbelievable disgusting comments. I thought this site wss better than this. Some of the comments are bordering on slander.
Yes, I have met him. So you’re wrong.
I never said I want us to lose, merely that losing won’t hurt nearly so much. As for slander, I suppose you think his behaviour with England was ok? I prefer people with principals.
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Does Allardyce still not speak to the BBC after Panoroma nearly stung him for corruption back in 2006? Then there was the Telegraph allegations... He has quite the catologue really. And some people don't understand why some fans don't want him anywhere near the club.
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Depends what you want from the club, the board clearly want to stay up at all costs and therefore Allardyce is a logical appointment with his record of never being relegated, he has taken over clubs in tricky situations too.
Personally I want to see us play an attacking style of football, blooding youth products of the academy, attacking the cups and have a wide ranging, cutting edge recruitment process that allows us to compete. This appointment doesn't bring any of that so whilst I understand it, I'm not pleased.
I'll be interested to see how Allardyce goes about things, you fear for Sawyers, Krovinovic and maybe Pereira too under Allardyce. I expect to see Robson-Kanu return to the fold along with Livermore.
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I’ll do what I want.
No Offence but your attitude ain't going to get you very far or a lot of respect if you didn't care what he said just ignore what he said you don't have to respond. I never respond to people who either A I don't understand there posts B Don't Care about or C there stupid
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Correct Lee 👏🏻
Our consistent mid-table finishes in the Premier League have come from having managers like Hodgson and Pulis. Highly organised and not playing this ‘Albion way’. I expect the same under Big Sam. I think the harsh reality is it’s our identity at this level.
Spot on. 100% true.
Those of us who were around in the 1970s can remember a different era, but that was a very long time ago when it was possible for a club like Albion to have genuine ambitions of winning the league, let alone staying in it.
This is a completely different world. I don’t like it, I’ve lost quite a bit of love for the game as the emotion and dreams have been stripped, but it’s the harsh reality.
Thinking otherwise is a total delusion. A fantasy world.
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Does Allardyce still not speak to the BBC after Panoroma nearly stung him for corruption back in 2006? Then there was the Telegraph allegations... He has quite the catologue really. And some people don't understand why some fans don't want him anywhere near the club.
Shhhhhhh.
There's a carpet there to brush that under, thanks.
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Oh Aztech, it’ll be alright mate. You’ll get over this Bilić heartbreak, I’m almost sure if it.
We both knew this day was going to come.
Indeed I knew it would come as it does with every manager, however the way the club have gone about it is disgraceful.
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I hope that Allardyce gets results, as otherwise the criticism that Bilic got on this forum is going to sound pretty tame by comparison. Getting relegated is one thing, but getting relegated, and playing garbage football and destroying our reputation as a footballing club in the process will be something else.
One small positive with Allardyce however, is that coming from the same area, he knows the club and he knows the fans' culture. You'd hope that would count for something.
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At least one of the transfers is sorted for January....Kevin Nolan incoming :)
Already working at West Ham with Moyes
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Ooooh touchy :D
Do you not accept the way the club has handled this whole saga has already caused division amongst fans.
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Depends what you want from the club, the board clearly want to stay up at all costs and therefore Allardyce is a logical appointment with his record of never being relegated, he has taken over clubs in tricky situations too.
Personally I want to see us play an attacking style of football, blooding youth products of the academy, attacking the cups and have a wide ranging, cutting edge recruitment process that allows us to compete. This appointment doesn't bring any of that so whilst I understand it, I'm not pleased.
I'll be interested to see how Allardyce goes about things, you fear for Sawyers, Krovinovic and maybe Pereira too under Allardyce. I expect to see Robson-Kanu return to the fold along with Livermore.
Obviously in a dream world but how realistic is it for this too happen, what clubs that haven’t got a shed load of cash to spend do this?
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I can think of one positive about Allardyce he has a 100% win ratio as England Manager
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Do you not accept the way the club has handled this whole saga has already caused division amongst fans.
Of course it as. I am not happy with the owner the board or the appointment but as i have already said this is our club and i will always support them and be up the ground when we can. I can't get my head around people not going, hope we lose so he can be sacked well sorry i can't be agreeing with this i never want West Bromwich Albion to lose a game.
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Of course it as. I am not happy with the owner the board or the appointment but as i have already said this is our club and i will always support them and be up the ground when we can. I can't get my head around people not going, hope we lose so he can be sacked well sorry i can't be agreeing with this i never want West Bromwich Albion to lose a game.
I repeat I never want us to los a game and hope Allardyce wins every game in charge, that however will not change my opinion of him as a man.
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I’m pleased with this appointment. I’m also sad that a decent man has lost his job.
But I firmly believe this is the right decision. There’s a lot of emotion on here, and that’s what supporting a club is about. Supporting a football team doesn’t make any sense otherwise.
But I disagree that Bilic had us playing marvellous, attacking football in the best of Albion traditions - where has it been for the past 12 months? I think this is pure emotion and wishful thinking over reality.
There was no real sign of him turning results around in the Championship for months after Christmas, and I very much doubt he’d have been successful next season. The results this season have been awful - the defence is a shambles (and was for much of last season) and we aren’t exactly scoring many at the other end.
What was absolutely certain was that Albion were going down with Bilic in charge. Not the slightest doubt.
I can’t see that there was obviously a better option than Allardyce, unless we gambled big time and got incredibly lucky with a left-field appointment. He’s an excellent, experienced coach and I disagree completely with all this stuff about dinosaurs and hoof ball. He’s a pragmatist - every successful manager is, otherwise they get sacked pretty fast. He’s far from a fool, and has spent most of the past 30 years in the company of some of the best minds in the game. It’s insulting to suggest he hasn’t ever thought about how best to play the game beyond booting it in the style of Wing Commander Reap. He’s a professional who’s operated successfully at the highest levels of the game for decades.
We simply don’t have the players to employ a beautiful, rolling attacking game in the Premier League, and we can’t afford them. And I fear Allardyce has a much tougher job than Roy Hodgson, who wasn’t working with such a poor team.
I wouldn’t spend two seconds worrying about who players say they like playing for - it worries me a bit when they say they like the manager. Players naturally look out for themselves and getting the next contract or move, whoever’s in charge.
I do have doubts about Allardyce’s age, his hunger for the fight and above all the poor squad he has to work with. But this is a sensible roll of the dice, and though I still think the odds are massively against us, this gives us a bit more of a chance of success.
I think this was a sensible decision, and I hope fans will at least give it a chance to work.
Summed up perfectly
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Of course it as. I am not happy with the owner the board or the appointment but as i have already said this is our club and i will always support them and be up the ground when we can. I can't get my head around people not going, hope we lose so he can be sacked well sorry i can't be agreeing with this i never want West Bromwich Albion to lose a game.
Exactly, I doubt there is one fan who doesn’t think the club have handled this badly and also has a bit of sympathy with Bilic.
But what a lot are saying is that we believe that we have more chance of staying up under big Sam than Bilic and at this moment in time that all that matters.
People saying they hope he gets sacked soon baffle me as the only way he will get sacked is if we lose a lot of games, surely they don’t want that......
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What’s this ‘Albion Way of playing’ I have been seeing on social media?
The only time anyone under the age of 60 can say they have seen us play what’s known as great football would have been a few years late 70s early 80s, 1 season in division 3 and 2 years under Mowbray in the championship.
Deluded some folk.
If you're happy for football in general to consist of any old boring rubbish then that's up to you but, unlike you, I'll resist the temptation to dish out insults. Post-Covid, I suspect many people will want more entertainment from their football matches than they were previously willing to accept. If they don't get it, they might stop going or go less often.
People being happy for Albion's approach being to park the bus in order to try to finish 17th each Premier League season genuinely puzzles me.
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It’ll mostly be about results. It always is.
Allardyce will be given less of a chance by many, which I think is a real pity and won’t help. People will be looking out for confirmation of “garbage football†because that’s what they expect, even though I’m not sure exactly how we could describe what Bilic has delivered for an entire calendar year. It’s not exactly been scintillating - and it definitely hasn’t produced results.
We nearly all like Bilic; some of us don’t like Allardyce. So he won’t get cut much slack and will be more severely criticised when we lose.
But if he wins the criticism will be much more muted. Everything at a football club - happy fans and players, better publicity, commercial success - flows from what happens on the pitch. Winning is what counts in the end, especially in a football world that punishes losers in a way it never did 30 or so years ago.
Getting relegated in the 70s and even the 80s was a shame; now on many levels it’s a catastrophe.
It’s about results.
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Indeed I knew it would come as it does with every manager, however the way the club have gone about it is disgraceful.
To have 1 win in 17 Aztech, I think the club have been more than patient.
It’s an environment built entirely on getting results and if you’re not getting them someone else will take your place.
I know that sounds harsh, but it’s true.
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I repeat I never want us to los a game and hope Allardyce wins every game in charge, that however will not change my opinion of him as a man.
That's fair enough mate and i respect your opinion, feelings are running high at the moment but at the end of the day we all want the same thing We Are Albion say We Are Albion 👍
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Exactly, I doubt there is one fan who doesn’t think the club have handled this badly and also has a bit of sympathy with Bilic.
But what a lot are saying is that we believe that we have more chance of staying up under big Sam than Bilic and at this moment in time that all that matters.
People saying they hope he gets sacked soon baffle me as the only way he will get sacked is if we lose a lot of games, surely they don’t want that......
I hope they don't want that but reading some of the stuff on here tonight makes you wonder.
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If you're happy for football in general to consist of any old boring rubbish then that's up to you but, unlike you, I'll resist the temptation to dish out insults. Post-Covid, I suspect many people will want more entertainment from their football matches than they were previously willing to accept. If they don't get it, they might stop going or go less often.
People being happy for Albion's approach being to park the bus in order to try to finish 17th each Premier League season genuinely puzzles me.
The vast majority of performances under Slaven Bilić this year have not been entertaining for me personally.
I mean, maybe being left completely frustrated on a pretty consistent basis is entertaining to you, I don’t know.
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Obviously in a dream world but how realistic is it for this too happen, what clubs that haven’t got a shed load of cash to spend do this?
I'd argue Southampton do this quite well, Leicester too. Further down the pyramid I think Norwich stand out. Few other clubs hit some of these points if not all of them, such as Brighton, Barnsley and Brentford. Of course not all listed are all that successful but they are doing OK relative to their resources or at least a long term plan for success is identifiable.
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To have 1 win in 17 Aztech, I think the club have been more than patient.
It’s an environment built entirely on getting results and if you’re not getting them someone else will take your place.
I know that sounds harsh, but it’s true.
As I have said on many occasions the club gave Bilic very little chance of success this season, and the cracks in their relationship had already started to show at the back end of last season.
They often talk about a vision but never give it chance to bear fruit.
The loss of Bilic is not a major issue to me personally, however I suspected the type of appointment today and that and the way the club has conducted themselves make me angry.
May Allaryce win every game and secure our place in the premier league, However I still hope he’s gone come the end of the season.
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I hope they don't want that but reading some of the stuff on here tonight makes you wonder.
Just remember a lot of these fans thought the football being served up under Slaven Bilić was hugely entertaining. I find that very hard to get my head round 🤔
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The vast majority of performances under Slaven Bilić this year have not been entertaining for me personally.
I mean, maybe being left completely frustrated on a pretty consistent basis is entertaining to you, I don’t know.
im with you. Its been bloody bleak this season. I enjoyed the whole of city game, and most of the chelsea game. bRighton wasnt too bad either. Rest of them have been slightly painful. Sheff utd game was horrendous even if we got the 3 points.
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That's fair enough mate and i respect your opinion, feelings are running high at the moment but at the end of the day we all want the same thing We Are Albion say We Are Albion 👍
Agreed 👍
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He’s managed over 1,000 games, hundreds of them at the highest level and averaged around 40% win percentage despite often operating with smaller clubs in the big boys league.
"Averaged around 40% win percentage " is pretty generous - Allardyce's record in the Premier League is (source: BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55330288)):
G W D L Win %
Bolton 226 80 66 80 35.4
Newcastle 21 7 5 9 33.3
Blackburn 76 26 21 29 34.2
West Ham 114 35 28 51 30.7
Sunderland 30 9 9 12 30
Crystal Palace 21 8 2 11 38.1
Everton 24 9 7 8 37.5
Apologies if the formatting goes screwy after I've posted this.
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It’ll mostly be about results. It always is.
Allardyce will be given less of a chance by many, which I think is a real pity and won’t help. People will be looking out for confirmation of “garbage football†because that’s what they expect, even though I’m not sure exactly how we could describe what Bilic has delivered for an entire calendar year. It’s not exactly been scintillating - and it definitely hasn’t produced results.
We nearly all like Bilic; some of us don’t like Allardyce. So he won’t get cut much slack and will be more severely criticised when we lose.
But if he wins the criticism will be much more muted. Everything at a football club - happy fans and players, better publicity, commercial success - flows from what happens on the pitch. Winning is what counts in the end, especially in a football world that punishes losers in a way it never did 30 or so years ago.
Getting relegated in the 70s and even the 80s was a shame; now on many levels it’s a catastrophe.
It’s about results.
A very wise Albion fan you are ttree30. Well put 👍🏻
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Exactly, I doubt there is one fan who doesn’t think the club have handled this badly and also has a bit of sympathy with Bilic.
But what a lot are saying is that we believe that we have more chance of staying up under big Sam than Bilic and at this moment in time that all that matters.
People saying they hope he gets sacked soon baffle me as the only way he will get sacked is if we lose a lot of games, surely they don’t want that......
I’d agree with that.
Without putting words in to peoples mouth, it’s seems there is three main issues with Allardyce.
- he’s a wolves fan. Well quite frankly the silliest of the issues. Get over it.
- The bung allegations. First of all nothings been proven as far as I know but there’s enough suspicion and I can understand people being unhappy with this. However I think people are naive if they think there’s not tonnes of unsavoury stuff that has gone on in football in the past and tonnes of it probably already at the Albion. I believe sir Alex Ferguson had some allegations. Gary Megson had his dad doing our scouting! In respect of the England scandal, at least Allardyce did say you just can’t do it now but he was a fool for even having the conversation.
It doesn’t make it right, but let’s not pretend everyone is whiter than white, and every industry is. There’ll be some hypocrisy from some on this I’m sure.
- Finally the style of football. Well we’ve been poor for a year and it’s hardly been entertaining and stylish so I think it’s a bit rich to be critiquing another style just yet. Football is about winning after all and I think some were supportive of Bilic nobody was likely to get support from some.
Obviously people are free to vote with their feet and do as they please, but I think some reactions are over the top. I also remember football Is fickle and if big Sam gets 6 points from Villa and Leeds (not likely I know) you’ll see people jumping down from their position so quickly if you’ll be forgiven for thinking they ever had a problem.
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Ray harford was the first manager i can remember. In my lifetime slaven has been by far the most charismatic of all of them (unless it was tony mowbray talking about magic dust) so based on that alone, i really like the bloke. i imagine we all do (bar partisan) The reality is, the roosters came home to roost. We have bar 6 games this entire calendar year, been rubbish. He seemed to have no plan b. The squad is potentially not good enough. We know that. But we also know he hasnt got the best out of all the players, just some of them. We need that bite and fight and until city i didnt think we had it anymore.
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im with you. Its been bloody bleak this season. I enjoyed the whole of city game, and most of the chelsea game. bRighton wasnt too bad either. Rest of them have been slightly painful. Sheff utd game was horrendous even if we got the 3 points.
It was horrendous Woys. Shouldn’t even have won that game but my goodness did the footballing God’s smile down on Slaven that night.
All this previous talk about seeing the season out with Bilić and rebuilding was pipe dream stuff. Come the end of the season the players confidence levels would have been shot to pieces and no good for another long, arduous Championship slog.
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It was horrendous Woys. Shouldn’t even have won that game but my goodness did the footballing God’s smile down on Slaven that night.
All this previous talk about seeing the season out with Bilić and rebuilding was pipe dream stuff. Come the end of the season the players confidence levels would have been shot to pieces and no good for another long, arduous Championship slog.
my mate who was a blade text me after the game and said they could stayed on the pitch 3 hours after the albion players went home and he thought they still wouldnt have scored. Big problems over there currently, probably worse. Least we didnt spent 70 million in the summer to be bottom
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... and that’s why none of us are making decisions. Pretty sure a lot of the same crowd were saying the same about Roy 😂
You have to take sentiment out of this
Yes, it’s a clear ploy to safeguard Lai’s investment to sell up.
Allardyce may not be a nice guy, but you can’t argue with his record.
As much as Slav was likeable, and got given hardly any money with hegazi sold underneath him, he still failed to organise the defence... the same failing he had at West Ham. Form since Jan has been poor and clearly had favourites who didn’t perform.
I don’t like him either, but it’s the fastest way we will get Lai out of the club
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Just remember a lot of these fans thought the football being served up under Slaven Bilić was hugely entertaining. I find that very hard to get my head round 🤔
Yeah i know Fullham away, second half against Palace, that is when Slav should have gone.
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I’m looking forward to Villa at home this Sunday evening already.
Why? I’m not at all.
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Didn't want him but need him to do well for the club's sake.
In 18 months we'll be after one of
Ian Dowie
Mick McCarthy
Mark Hughes
Thought the club would learn after the Pardew disaster.
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Why? I’m not at all.
Because we have a real chance of beating the vilers now.
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Didn't want him but need him to do well for the club's sake.
In 18 months we'll be after one of
Ian Dowie
Mick McCarthy
Mark Hughes
Thought the club would learn after the Pardew disaster.
Nailed on to be Appleton
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Because we have a real chance of beating the vilers now.
Really? Hope you are right.
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I suspect I will be like I was when Pulis arrived. For years I was a massive critic of everything about his football. But when Pulis arrived I decided to "tolerate" it, but I hardly ever went to matches. Watching Pulis was like going to the dentist. You don't enjoy it, but it was doing a job.
I accept everyone's perception is different, but for me there is an Albion Way of playing. My first recollection of Albion was watching Bobby Hope, Len Cantello spraying passes about and playing expansive attacking football. I doubt I would ever have become an Albion fan if I had been watching an Allerdyce team. I wonder if there are kids out there now who would see it the same way.
I will see how it goes with Allerdyce. Maybe its good not to expect too much, as then you're pleased if there are any titbits to enjoy. I just hope he doesn't do any major long-term damage to the position and reputation of the club.
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Just remember a lot of these fans thought the football being served up under Slaven Bilić was hugely entertaining. I find that very hard to get my head round 🤔
There's a big difference between wanting to play attacking entertaining football, but being prevented by the opposition, and setting out to play boring negative regardless.
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Allardyce must have gotten assurances about budget for transfer window, squad not good enough for this league.
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Why? I’m not at all.
HRK might still come on, on the hour mark. Keep the faith KN22 🤞🏻
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*** STOP PRESS ****
Sam's first squad with his comments
Button ("Johnstone needed elsewhere")
--------------------------------
Ajayi
Ivanovitch
Austin
Kipre
Allardyce
O'Shea ("You need defenders, big guys, lots of them. Don't worry about agility they won't be moving away from the front of the box bar catchig them offside")
----------------------------------
Livermore ("Who needs a midfield , ball's going over the top")
----------------------------------------
Robson-Kanu ("Have to make do. Madness to get rid of Burke's pace chasing balls")
Johnstone ("Need a big'un up top")
Grantly Di Angina(" Never 'eard of him but appraently cost 30 Meg so must be worth summat")
Not on the bench:-
Pereira ("Guy that small has no place in British football")
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There's a big difference between wanting to play attacking entertaining football, but being prevented by the opposition, and setting out to play boring negative regardless.
When the opposition nullify your attacking entertainment over a period of 12 months, well, I guess that looks really boring and negative too.
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When the opposition nullify your attacking entertainment over a period of 12 months, well, I guess that looks really boring and negative too.
I'd rather watch us trying to break down a negative boring side than trying to match them. Billic has done his best to get us playing good entertaining stuff, with players he's brought in like Pereira, Krovinovic, Diangana. He would have brought in Eze and Watkins if he'd been given the resources. Resources has been the main problem. Even so, I can think of large periods of games where I have enjoyed watching our football.
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"Averaged around 40% win percentage " is pretty generous - Allardyce's record in the Premier League is (source: BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55330288)):
G W D L Win %
Bolton 226 80 66 80 35.4
Newcastle 21 7 5 9 33.3
Blackburn 76 26 21 29 34.2
West Ham 114 35 28 51 30.7
Sunderland 30 9 9 12 30
Crystal Palace 21 8 2 11 38.1
Everton 24 9 7 8 37.5
Apologies if the formatting goes screwy after I've posted this.
Well looking at these figures, Big Sam has never been at a club where his points per game return has been less than 1.17 (his best is 1.42)
So with 25 games to go and using his worst record we would finish the season with 36 points (his best 42pts)
That is a fighting chance at staying up.
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Each to their own , been some good reading on the board mostly conducted in the right spirit during a time with emotions running high .
I will add as proud as I was of Bilic's last stand at City that was the most Pulis like performance I've seen since the capped one left .
Big Sam's here now , not my choice but I'm open minded and lets see what happens .
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I just find it interesting reading about how terrible the club is and it's such a low point, and this mythical "Albion way" of playing.
Having started following Albion in 1993 we are a long LONG way from Alan flipping Buckley buying all the worst players from Grimsby and that record losing run, or Brian Little's frankly abject reign. How about selling Kilbane from under the managers' nose, he was much more of a key player and first teamed than hegazi.
Sir Gary Megson is still lauded for his achievements and rightly so, he will always be a hero to me but I don't remember much of the "Albion way" the season we went up.
Owners come and go (not as often as we would like) managers come and go, players come and go but WE are Albion.
For the record I liked Slav a great deal and I was desperate for him to make something click, but it's clear that wasn't going to happen.
I'm not particularly a fan of Sam but I'm prepared to give him a chance and see what he can do. Personally I don't think our squad is as bad as people (including Slav) made out so I'm hopeful of some improvement.
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His first job is to hide the pies from Charlie
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Think I’m over it now. Anger subsided. We need to stay up now that the board has made this choice and that’s all there is too it. I’ll be watching on Sunday and desperately hoping we don’t go full Pulisball.
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As others have said, if the plan is to stay up in order to be sold, then I am all for it. The quicker the present owners are gone the better......
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Don't know him personally but his media persona doesn't enthral me.
If he's here to keep us in this division and he manages it then great. I'm not holding out any hopes.
We are stuck in a rut at the moment and you can change the manager as much as you like but until we change owners, and the owners have to seriously invest, then we have to put up with where we are.
I'd settle for relegation, promotion, relegation every other season.
If the aim is to just keep plugging away every season for 17th place just to take the money then count me out.
We are a short term thinking club, get Sam in until the end of the season. Then what?
Should have stuck with Bilic until the end of the season whilst making a long term plan to replace him at the end of the season if that is what's required
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*** STOP PRESS ****
Sam's first squad with his comments
Button ("Johnstone needed elsewhere")
--------------------------------
Ajayi
Ivanovitch
Austin
Kipre
Allardyce
O'Shea ("You need defenders, big guys, lots of them. Don't worry about agility they won't be moving away from the front of the box bar catchig them offside")
----------------------------------
Livermore ("Who needs a midfield , ball's going over the top")
----------------------------------------
Robson-Kanu ("Have to make do. Madness to get rid of Burke's pace chasing balls")
Johnstone ("Need a big'un up top")
Grantly Di Angina(" Never 'eard of him but appraently cost 30 Meg so must be worth summat")
Not on the bench:-
Pereira ("Guy that small has no place in British football")
I don’t know about you but I grew up watching Allardyce liking flair players like Djorkaeff and Okocha at Bolton.. I think people discredit him as a Pulis mk2, I think he’s kore flexible than people think, just works with what he’s got. Sad for Bilic but this will keep us up
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Don't know him personally but his media persona doesn't enthral me.
If he's here to keep us in this division and he manages it then great. I'm not holding out any hopes.
We are stuck in a rut at the moment and you can change the manager as much as you like but until we change owners, and the owners have to seriously invest, then we have to put up with where we are.
I'd settle for relegation, promotion, relegation every other season.
If the aim is to just keep plugging away every season for 17th place just to take the money then count me out.
We are a short term thinking club, get Sam in until the end of the season. Then what?
Should have stuck with Bilic until the end of the season whilst making a long term plan to replace him at the end of the season if that is what's required
I agree with a lot of what you said but sadly Allardyce has signed an 18 month contract so I imagine he'll be here for next season too.
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I don’t know about you but I grew up watching Allardyce liking flair players like Djorkaeff and Okocha at Bolton.. I think people discredit him as a Pulis mk2, I think he’s kore flexible than people think, just works with what he’s got. Sad for Bilic but this will keep us up
Where are Bolton now? And how come, at every single club he's been at since, the fans have protested against the quality of the football. Even when they were sitting 3rd fans still wanted him out.
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I agree with a lot of what you said but sadly Allardyce has signed an 18 month contract so I imagine he'll be here for next season too.
I thought Sky had reported there was a break clause at the end of the season in his contract
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I thought Sky had reported there was a break clause at the end of the season in his contract
I don't know, I don't watch Sky, I was just going off what's been reported on the O/S.
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Morning all . Am still seething over the appointment of the ex England manager. Just a thought has he ever been in charge of a game with VAR? Will stop his beloved rough and tumble tactics from set pieces at both ends surely. On the plus side defenders wont have to worry about getting slaughtered for missed places passes when playing out from the back #Laiout!!
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WARNING: can members please leave their corruption posts off this forum. We do not want such posts on here as we do not want any repercussions on either you or us. If you want to post that sort of stuff then Facebook is the place to go. Members on this forum are better than that.
Also, as we did with A F I, can members not refer to him as Fat Sam..
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WARNING: can members please leave their corruption posts off this forum. We do not want such posts on here as we do not want any repercussions on either you or us. If you want to post that sort of stuff then Facebook is the place to go. Members on this forum are better than that.
Also, as we did with A F I, can members not refer to him as Fat Sam..
My mom always told me is was bad manners to write in red pen.
Anyway, can we refer to him Chubby Sam or Chunky Sam?
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WARNING: can members please leave their corruption posts off this forum. We do not want such posts on here as we do not want any repercussions on either you or us. If you want to post that sort of stuff then Facebook is the place to go. Members on this forum are better than that.
Also, as we did with A F I, can members not refer to him as Fat Sam..
I have no intention of being that nice to him !
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My mom always told me is was bad manners to write in red pen.
Anyway, can we refer to him Chubby Sam or Chunky Sam?
“body positive Samâ€
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As you all will have read I was raging about Slaven - partly because he was sacked but much more the way in which it was done.
I can't complain that the board have been guilty of their usual dithering on the other hand...
Sensibly though, we are where we are and I'm ready to back SA. I don't like his style but I hope he gets the job done. I hope, somehow, he can get MP and GD firing again too.
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Where are Bolton now? And how come, at every single club he's been at since, the fans have protested against the quality of the football. Even when they were sitting 3rd fans still wanted him out.
If we had never had Pulis we would have all been happy
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I don't understand peoples reasoning with sticking with Bilic and accepting relegation especially if he more than likely wasn't going to be here next season anyway.
Relegation-promotion-relegation how can anyone seriously be happy with that? Some cant wait to get back in the Championship and out of the greed league blah blah , crying over Bilic getting the bullet.
Jesus wept.
Allardyces premiership managerial experience, CV, crisis management is on a different level to Bilic.
Hopefully he keeps us up, lord knows hes got his work cut out, but lets give him a chance.
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WARNING: can members please leave their corruption posts off this forum. We do not want such posts on here as we do not want any repercussions on either you or us. If you want to post that sort of stuff then Facebook is the place to go. Members on this forum are better than that.
Also, as we did with A F I, can members not refer to him as Fat Sam..
LOL, what's happened to the humour football fans use to have something else I miss from the game today's society is so bland, anyone on here remember our favourite Ron Atkinson song!
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LOL, what's happened to the humour football fans use to have something else I miss from the game today's society is so bland, anyone on here remember our favourite Ron Atkinson song!
Like everything else mates, it's been stifled by the PC mob
Wonder if we'd get away with the Elton John or Posh Spice one now :D
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If someone had said, this time last year, that by next Christmas we would have had the country locked down twice, schools shut throughout the spring and summer and that Baggies would be in the Premier League with Big Sam as their manager - I would have said that they were deluded. Who would have thought that Sam Allardyce would be our Head Coach! Still he is. Really liked Slav and wish him well. However, Sam is in charge now. As someone said he’s probably not the guy that we wanted but he may be the one we need. I wish him all the best.
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Like everything else mates, it's been stifled by the PC mob
Wonder if we'd get away with the Elton John or Posh Spice one now :D
Just as well I don't go now I don't think I would be sitting there like a wax dummy I would soon be making friends with the stewards ;D
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
Great post. I guess I must be the same sort of age as you. It makes a difference. The Premiership sucks as far as I'm concerned; I only want us to stay up so Lai can get a good price and go.
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
We have also been an ex Saunders club, an ex Gould club, ex Buckley club. So what.
Moore and Bilic are very wealthy men who still have futures in the game. If we spend any protracted time out of the Premiership there are other good men and women who lose their jobs at WBA.
If you care about the club then surely you want it to be where its spent most of its existence at the top table, not bumming around in the championship so we can win more games against Luton and Rotherham.
I don't like a lot of aspects of the greed league but its the only place to be.
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
Very well put. Exactly the way I feel.
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club'
Excellent post. I'm sure younger fans might not see how there could be an "Albion way" of playing but, even if you don't think there is such a thing surely, if you still believe that football is a "fans' game", in this day and age football has to be regarded as being about entertainment more than anything else?
If our club is widely associated with the Pulis's and the Allardyces of the football world, what hope is there going to be of attracting new fans going forward? Over time, the number of fans is just going to dwindle away if we keep returning to football dinosaurs to be our manager.
The club needs to box more cleverly than this, it needs to get back to Albion being regarded in a positive light generally in football circles, both in the overall ethos of the club and in the way that it plays football. Scrabbling around in the mud each season just trying to stay up to keep the owner happy won't be enough going forward.
The club is drifting and visionless, which means it's going to hit the rocks sooner or later if it continues like that.
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We have also been an ex Saunders club, an ex Gould club, ex Buckley club. So what.
Moore and Bilic are very wealthy men who still have futures in the game. If we spend any protracted time out of the Premiership there are other good men and women who lose their jobs at WBA.
If you care about the club then surely you want it to be where its spent most of its existence at the top table, not bumming around in the championship so we can win more games against Luton and Rotherham.
I don't like a lot of aspects of the greed league but its the only place to be.
Of course i want us at the top table, BUT I want us to do it with pride and not like a snivelling poor cousin,
I have more respect for clubs and fans like Rotherham and Barnsleys than the Man City / chelsea psychophants, there is more to football than success, primarily the fans and the club.
My club was a proud club with amazing fans who understood what being a baggie REALLY meant, now we chase the yuan and the $ at any cost, including employing managers with no moral compass or scruples, thats not my Albion !!!
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
So well put so close to my own feelings !
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If you care about the club then surely you want it to be where its spent most of its existence at the top table, not bumming around in the championship so we can win more games against Luton and Rotherham.
I don't like a lot of aspects of the greed league but its the only place to be.
So one has to want to be in the EPL to care about the club. Why disrespect clubs in the Championship: Notts Forest, Derby, Stoke, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday with pasts as illustrious as ours not to mention Luton Town and Rotherham.
I resign myself to whatever this club's management dredges up but that also includes going down to League 2 if that would drop the price sufficiently that a new type of ownership could be attained. I wouldn't be sad if Mr Guochan lost a lot of money over his trophy purchase.
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I think in order to be the club that fans want us to be - with a vision and playing the right way etc. You need to have an owner who is incredibly patient, smart, knowledgeable about football and, maybe most importantly, who actually cares about the club. We have an owner who ticks none of those boxes.
In an ideal world we would have someone in charge who has a vision for the club, and the patience and cash to see it through long-term. We don't live in that ideal world, and sad as it is football is what it is these days. It isn't the pure, highly competitive sport it once was and the fans are the ones who have lost out because of this.
I personally agree that it is saddening to see us desperate for survival and employing someone like Allardyce to pragmatically defend our way to Premier League status next year. But I am also realistic enough to accept the way it is for clubs like us, and to take whatever positives I can from football as it is in the real world not in my idealised version of how I want it to be.
Likeable as he is Bilic was taking us down, no doubt about it. Allardyce has increased our chances of staying up without doubt (nothing is certain in football of course). The way it was done is questionable and it would have been preferable had it not come out earlier and all of that, but I don't think anyone can really say Bilic wasn't deserving of the sack, we have been abject for 12 months and were incredibly lucky to gain promotion in the end.
If as has been said Lai is looking to sell and he needs us to be in the Premier League to do so, in the long term Allardyce gives us a better chance of getting what we as Albion supporters all want, which is a team we are proud to support with a long term vision of future success. Like it or lump it we will now all have to put up with this period of pragmatism again with the hope of success materialising in some possibly distant future, but honestly on balance I think this probably is the right decision for the club. Time will tell.
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Reading the last few posts it strikes me fans are reminiscing for how football used to be pre-Premier League, without a doubt the likes of Sky have ruined football each season it becomes more money orientated and you have the haves and have nots the also rans.
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So one has to want to be in the EPL to care about the club. Why disrespect clubs in the Championship: Notts Forest, Derby, Stoke, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday with pasts as illustrious as ours not to mention Luton Town and Rotherham.
I resign myself to whatever this club's management dredges up but that also includes going down to League 2 if that would drop the price sufficiently that a new type of ownership could be attained. I wouldn't be sad if Mr Guochan lost a lot of money over his trophy purchase.
The lower tiers are full of yesterdays clubs living off former glories, most of you ones you've just mentioned have better trophy cabinets than us and more recent too.
They would all gladly swap places with us even as we stand at this moment in time.
So you'd be happy with league 2 football? so 3 relegations, endless defeats, dwindling crowds, awful players, financial Armageddon, staff losses the list goes on just to get rid of Lai?
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We are in the same cul-de-sac with Allardyce as we were with Pulis stay up at all costs no thought to any long term strategy so the owners can sell the club.
Fine, you don't like the owners but the chances of you liking the next ones are less likely than Sam Allardyce being weight watchers slimmer of the year. The economic position of the club does not change and all it ever does is burn money to stand still and put out unwatchable football. There is absolutely no point to it. Whistle in the dark if you like but frankly things look very dark and a shrill chorus of "Always look on the bright side" isn't going to do much for morale.
I would add that even if Allardyce's teams played like 1970' s Brazil I still wouldn't want him at the club. I understand why the mods who want to protect the board and it's members from litigation don't want to discuss the grey areas of Allardyce's past but this is now the public face of the club and it has an ugly side to it.
I will always be an Albion fan but I want nothing to do with the current regime at the club.
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Having had a father rough night, not a lot of sleep, I have had a lot of time to rethink my point of view on Allardyce and come to the conclusion that we have to give him a chance. :o If he keeps us in the Premier League and our owner manages to sell the club it is happy days isn't it ;D
I have heard many fans saying they are not going to The Hawthorns while Allardyce is in charge, while I admire their stance ( if they stick to it ). I could not do it, I have seen many managers in my 55 years of supporting the Albion and while I have even hated some of them, I have still giving my full support to the team and will continue to do so.
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The view I hold is that I am Pro Bilic as opposed to Anti Sam...I imagine a number of fans share this view.
I would have kept Bilic but in terms of his replacement I struggle to think of a better candidate out there than him.
As others have said we've no prospect of long term vision for the club sadly with the owners that we have.
The outcome we all want is new owners; the owners are more likely to get the money they want for the club by us being a premier league club. The manager most likely to get us premier league status and in turn potentially an offer that will be accepted for the club and new owners....Sam Allardyce.
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Having had a father rough night, not a lot of sleep, I have had a lot of time to rethink my point of view on Allardyce and come to the conclusion that we have to give him a chance. :o If he keeps us in the Premier League and our owner manages to sell the club it is happy days isn't it ;D
I have heard many fans saying they are not going to The Hawthorns while Allardyce is in charge, while I admire their stance ( if they stick to it ). I could not do it, I have seen many managers in my 55 years of supporting the Albion and while I have even hated some of them, I have still giving my full support to the team and will continue to do so.
I’m not going to even watch them on the TV, as far as I’m concerned this season is finished
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I’m not going to even watch them on the TV, as far as I’m concerned this season is finished
Fair play kirk if that's how you feel.
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To use old fashioned terminology there is a really nice letter from Slav on Facebook posted by Sons of Albion page just shows why he was held in high regard .
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Hey Kc56,
I completely agree with you.
May I add that if Lai manages to sell the club , that will be the end of Allardyce anyway, new owners will replace him.
I'm not a fan of our new coach/manager? Perhaps he sees this appointment being his last and would like to go out on a high,unlike his last job.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see if our players respond to him and his ways.
2 more wins and were virtually on a point per game, one never knows.
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Personally loved Bilic and would have kept him (can see why some wanted him out). I didn’t want Allardyce and can see why people are apposed to him (not just for footballing reasons). I personally think character, integrity etc are important in terms of how it pertains to the clubs reputation. I Just don’t think football has a moral high ground. We have employed some pretty terrible characters in the past (both players and managers). As fans we love Albion and I understand the sentiment of walking away but football is unlike a business or other organizations. It annoyingly gets in your blood and your emotions. I can see why people lose interest but I can’t shake loving the Albion. I don’t want Allardyce but we have employed Pardew, Pulis, Gould, Robson who I didn’t want for various reasons not just football...
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Big Sam wouldnt of been my choice as manager but he is here now.
Whether we like it or not, Baggie79 confirmed last night what we thought but were hoping was wrong, its purely a financial decision and there is no long term plan.
Allardyce has as good a chance as anyone of keeping us up and if that means the chances of Lai selling the club quicker and we can then stop operating as we are. Lai has done what he said in regards to self sufficient but the way we sacked Moore when 4th from the top, got rid of Bilic three months into a new season, just the way we conduct things on the football front, it lacks class.
However..... with Allardyce, one thing that should be pointed out, all his ex clubs fans dont hate him, far from it - Bolton, Palace and Sunderland fans love him.
I went on a course thing this time last year through my work and Allardyce was the guest speaker, little did i think 12 months later he would our new manager!
However he was very interesting and informative, he said he knows he gets brought into clubs initially to keep them up, he said clubs down the bottom usually are conceding lots of goals and dont score many either, thats why his first task is make them hard to beat so you have a chance of at least a point.
He said at Sunderland and Palace he would like to of built on stuff but it didnt happen for different reasons, he did say he would like to go to a club where he could build something like Bolton but wherever he went the first task would be to make them more organised and hard to beat which he said the modern day fan doesnt want, but given time he would like his teams to be more expansive, ie - like Bolton.
He said he does a lot of the media stuff because he didnt like the image he got tagged with at Bolton, he said they didnt play loads of passes for the sake of it, but they had skilfull players, got forward quick and used wingers a lot which is how he was brought up on football and he used to like watching it played that way as it was exciting so thats why he likes his teams to play ideally.
He blamed Arsene Wenger a lot for the reputation he has, he said when Wenger came in he was the media darling as he changed how english football was being played, he said Wenger hated it that he struggled against him and he made the most of it, he said not many other managers complained about how Bolton played, he said they were respected, but because Wenger was a media darling and he slated Bolton, the reputation has stuck and been exaggerated.
I got the sense that he knew he wasnt going to get another top job and obviously the England job has been and gone, but it came across he doesnt want to keep getting short term jobs and be known as a firefighter, he has a big ego and i think he would like a job which probably takes him to retirement and he leaves the managerial game on a positive having built a club like he did at Bolton.
I found him interesting and he came across okay, he did have a big ego (which managers often do) and he did come across a bit felt sorry for himself but overall i liked him more following the course than i did before it.
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I don’t think he’s very much like Pulis at all. He’s certainly a pragmatist, but a much more progressive coach. I don’t understand the hate and it won’t help our club.
My concerns are about his age (past his sell-by date?), his time out of the game, his hunger for the fight and above all the very poor material he has to work with.
He has wrongly and lazily been labelled another Pulis or a “dinosaur†imho when his record and reputation within the game is of a thoughtful and capable coach.
Albion were going once way with Bilic and it’s the right decision in my view to roll the dice. He’s probably the best they could do in the circumstances, but if he manages to fashion a team good enough from what we have I will be mightily surprised and hugely impressed (and grateful).
His first job was at Albion (sacked with Talbot) and this could be his last. Let’s hope it’s a great success.
Well said. Far too many OTT, knee jerk negative comments on here. His style is no where near as bad as Pulis. Like others have said more Hodgson-like. The dinosaur comments are lazy. If he keeps us up and plays some attacking football, he'll have done an amazing job.
Slav was a nice guy but he had clearly run out of ideas and we were going down. No ifs, no buts about that.
We desperately needed a change and his record is impressive. He knows his stuff. If we go down, it will be fighting and not with a pathetic whimper. He has 100% backing from me.
COYB!
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Some of our fans reactions are nothing other than childish.
It's not Slaven Bilic we support, its West Bromwich Albion and that means through the tricky times as well as the good.
It's not Sam's fault what happened to Slaven.
Get behind Sam and the team for God's sake.
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Now I've slept on it, Im totally behind the decision and I think Sam is the best man we can get currently to do what we want. If he can keep us up for 2 seasons, the new deal will kick in and we wj be quids in. Quids in not only in the sense we'll get more money, but lai will be able to sell the club... Isn't that what we all really want?
I loved slaven as a bloke, he's my favourite personality we've had as a manager in my lifetime, but being likeable isn't his job. Keeping us up is his job n he clearly wasn't going to do that
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Some of our fans reactions are nothing other than childish.
It's not Slaven Bilic we support, its West Bromwich Albion and that means through the tricky times as well as the good.
It's not Sam's fault what happened to Slaven.
Get behind Sam and the team for God's sake.
Yes indeed. Actually glad we are stuck in tier 3 now. Imagine the scenes if we had 2000 fans there against Villa and with the childish mentality of some our fanbase started sulking and moaning/booing Sam Allardyce before a balls been kicked.
Get a grip guys, put on your big boy pants and suck it up or stay away for the sake of the club.
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Yes indeed. Actually glad we are stuck in tier 3 now. Imagine the scenes if we had 2000 fans there against Villa and with the childish mentality of some our fanbase started sulking and moaning/booing Sam Allardyce before a balls been kicked.
Get a grip guys, put on your big boy pants and suck it up or stay away for the sake of the club.
Amen to that
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
This is so very true. Unlike others though I don't hate the premier league, far from it in fact. I do however want to see us make a proper fist of it and not just resort, for the second time now, to a manager who proudly boasts that he has never been relegated.....
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This is so very true. Unlike others though I don't hate the premier league, far from it in fact. I do however want to see us make a proper fist of it and not just resort, for the second time now, to a manager who proudly boasts that he has never been relegated.....
It isnt true it's way over the top. It's just the perception some people believe. Allardyce is not hated nationwide and we are not seen as a joke. Anyone that thinks we are a joke as one of the top 20 clubs in the country is a joke in themselves and that really, seriously is their problem.
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Some of our fans reactions are nothing other than childish.
It's not Slaven Bilic we support, its West Bromwich Albion and that means through the tricky times as well as the good.
It's not Sam's fault what happened to Slaven.
Get behind Sam and the team for God's sake.
No but it is Sams fault what he’s done and what he’s said about WBA
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No but it is Sams fault what he’s done and what he’s said about WBA
Are you perfect, have you never said anything you regret?
We are human beings not machines.
It's now and the future that matters.
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He can burn albion shirts in the garden after every game as long as he keeps us up.
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It isnt true it's way over the top. It's just the perception some people believe. Allardyce is not hated nationwide and we are not seen as a joke. Anyone that thinks we are a joke as one of the top 20 clubs in the country is a joke in themselves and that really, seriously is their problem.
I suggest that you talk to some people rather than believe your own perceptions.
Allardyce is despised by football fans across the country for how he dis-honoured the post of england manager.
I was in the pub last night and trust me that we are seen as a joke, when people are directly laughing at you because of our clubs appointment, its not a nice feeling.
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I suggest that you talk to some people rather than believe your own perceptions.
Allardyce is despised by football fans across the country for how he dis-honoured the post of england manager.
I was in the pub last night and trust me that we are seen as a joke, when people are directly laughing at you because of our clubs appointment, its not a nice feeling.
Part of being a football supporter, don’t take it to heart.
Throughout my life I’ve laughed at wolves fans as they have been a joke, now they do the same to me as they are better.
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Part of being a football supporter, don’t take it to heart.
Throughout my life I’ve laughed at wolves fans as they have been a joke, now they do the same to me as they are better.
But I have been able to shoot them down and/or take the morale high ground, now I have to suck it up as its true, thats whats happened to us over recent times and its now been capped off !
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I take it my post has just been deleted but not sure why, it wasn't offensive or inflammatory, if anything it was sweet and nostalgic.
Can any mods shed light?
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Has Allardyce spoken about wba yet?
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Has Allardyce spoken about wba yet?
Yes, Talksport (from Bham mail site)
"One of my first questions was that I may need help in January if I can,†Allardyce said, in an interview with talkSPORT.
“Can we find a better player than what we’ve already got? Only then would I want to bring him in. That’s a difficult task, because of Covid, the understanding of the club and where they’re at at the moment.
So yes, they’re prepared to get some players, but we need to find where those players are. Who wants to let go of players in this pandemic? That’s a particular problem.
“I can’t suggest at this moment how many players we’d need. By the time I had finished four weeks and six games at Crystal Palace, I knew exactly what we needed to do.
While the players here are working very hard and trying their best, and it’s on the back of that magnificent, gutsy performance at Manchester City which I watched live, it’s always good when they see a new player on the training ground who is going to make them better.
“The difficulty is finding that player, we’ll have to try our best.â€
The meeting I had last night with Luke and Ken, my close contact with them was an understanding of what we’re going to try and do together, because without their support there was point me coming really,†Allardyce added.
“Give me the bottom line. If it’s right, I’ll give it a go, but give me your support going forward. And, of course, at the end - if there’s the right player there, can we get him?â€
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He also said somewhere else, cant remember where tbf, that he feels we are not far off surviving, it's about cutting out individual errors, being more organised etc. Nothing outlandish.
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Doing his first official presser now according to Masi
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He also said somewhere else, cant remember where tbf, that he feels we are not far off surviving, it's about cutting out individual errors, being more organised etc. Nothing outlandish.
Getting a fair rub of the green from officials and VAR would help too. ;D
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Getting a fair rub of the green from officials and VAR would help too. ;D
I dont think we are going to get that unless we get Fergie out of retirement sadly
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I dont think we are going to get that unless we get Fergie out of retirement sadly
Imagine a fergie vs klopp bust up? :)
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Imagine a fergie vs klopp bust up? :)
hahah my money is on Fergie
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I'll support him now he's in. I'm not happy with the timing and the treatment of Slav. The pressure was on him no doubt but I thought it was far too soon to pull the trigger.
Whatever, Big Sam is in now, I never really liked him but I supported us through Pardew and Pulis who I couldn't stand and I've supported us through Alan Buckley and others around that time so I'm sure i'll be fine and I want Sam Allardyce to be very successful for us. I think I watched us once when Pulis was manager and vowed never to not go back while he was there and I stuck by that. Covid makes that decision for me now really as I won't ever get in through a poll.
We probably have a better chance of staying up.
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I've come to this board late in the day on Allardyce and have to admit the level of wailing and gnashing has come as something of a surprise. I felt pretty crappy about it when the rumours arrived so close to the end of the Man City game but after a nights sleep i feel pretty pragmatic and even a touch more positive.
Slav was quality and leaves a good legacy but I was more upset about Big Dave getting the boot - he was one of our own, a hero of mine both as a person and footballer and we should be ever thank full for him giving the club back some pride and personality after that your under those absolute turds of men.
There was a lot of noise building around Slav that was becoming distracting. Would he stay on next year, was he backed enough, was his relationship with the board strained etc and his results over the calendar year were not fantastic. There is no noise with this appointment - keep us up and get a bucket load of dosh. We'll take it from there.
Allardyce maybe another turd, but he needs to be given a chance. His CV and pedigree cannot be argued with and he has a high profile in the media which may help with loan signings. His appointment is a no lose for me; he keeps us up and we probably get new owners is which is the most important thing. He fails and we go down, well, we were going down anyway.
It has upset many and it was ruthless. But this is top level football and i would rather have ruthlessness than the kind of dithering idiocy that kept Pardew and Pullis in jobs much too long.
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I'm convinced Billic developed a true passion for the club. I remember hearing him explain how he quite specifically chose Albion as a club he wanted to manage, and even in his final speech he called us 'unique' and said he wished the club well. I believe he was sincere about that.
Although I'm disappointed Bilic has departed, and I wanted Nigel Pearson as next best of the names being touted, it would be interesting to know more of what has motivated SA to come to the Albion. I doubt he still needs to pay off his mortgage. One of the few things I like about his appointment, is that he comes from Dudley, he will know the area, he will know the club and its culture and he probably knows a fair few Albion fans on a personal basis. As one of the jobs of a manager is to communicate with fans, that may a special asset of his. It would be good to hear some warm words about the Albion from him.
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Good to see Mike Bassett’s had a shave before his press conference today.
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Just watched Big Sam’s interview on Sky Sports and he certainly is making all the right noises in my view.
I hope fans, particularly those that have reservations about his appointment, can find a rational to at least give him a “fair crack of the whip†that I’m sure most will.
I am disappointed about Slaven’s departure but, I am fully behind and supportive of Big Sam while he is Head Coach of West Bromwich Albion FC.
The very best of luck Sam 👍
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Just watched Big Sam’s interview on Sky Sports and he certainly is making all the right noises in my view.
I hope fans, particularly those that have reservations about his appointment, can find a rational to at least give him a “fair crack of the whip†that I’m sure most will.
I am disappointed about Slaven’s departure but, I am fully behind and supportive of Big Sam while he is Head Coach of West Bromwich Albion FC.
The very best of luck Sam 👍
Here here.
Gutted about Slaven. Big Sam is here now. It's nice to hear a Blackcountry accent in charge and he has spoken fondly and deflected the Wolves Fan question well.
Looking forward to read everything the club post and it would be nice if we aren't ding this all over again in 12-18 months.
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Yes, Talksport (from Bham mail site)
"One of my first questions was that I may need help in January if I can,†Allardyce said, in an interview with talkSPORT.
One concern would be if he is permitted to generate funds by selling a prized asset, not that we have many.
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Yes, Talksport (from Bham mail site)
"One of my first questions was that I may need help in January if I can,†Allardyce said, in an interview with talkSPORT.
“Can we find a better player than what we’ve already got? Only then would I want to bring him in. That’s a difficult task, because of Covid, the understanding of the club and where they’re at at the moment.
So yes, they’re prepared to get some players, but we need to find where those players are. Who wants to let go of players in this pandemic? That’s a particular problem.
“I can’t suggest at this moment how many players we’d need. By the time I had finished four weeks and six games at Crystal Palace, I knew exactly what we needed to do.
While the players here are working very hard and trying their best, and it’s on the back of that magnificent, gutsy performance at Manchester City which I watched live, it’s always good when they see a new player on the training ground who is going to make them better.
“The difficulty is finding that player, we’ll have to try our best.â€
The meeting I had last night with Luke and Ken, my close contact with them was an understanding of what we’re going to try and do together, because without their support there was point me coming really,†Allardyce added.
“Give me the bottom line. If it’s right, I’ll give it a go, but give me your support going forward. And, of course, at the end - if there’s the right player there, can we get him?â€
So Luke and Ken are to blame
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https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sam-allardyce-press-conference-live-19476580
This is what he said to the press today. (Health warning: B Mail cookies)
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Yes indeed. Actually glad we are stuck in tier 3 now. Imagine the scenes if we had 2000 fans there against Villa and with the childish mentality of some our fanbase started sulking and moaning/booing Sam Allardyce before a balls been kicked.
Get a grip guys, put on your big boy pants and suck it up or stay away for the sake of the club.
Put your sheepskin coat on and go happy clapping
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
Just come on the board for the first time today, and may I belatedly say what a great post - good to see that principles haven't entirely disappeared from view.
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Put your sheepskin coat on and go happy clapping
Won't have been much happy clapping this year even if we could go.
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Allardyce maybe another turd, but he needs to be given a chance. His CV and pedigree cannot be argued with and he has a high profile in the media which may help with loan signings.
It is exactly his c.v. and pedigree that I would argue about.
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One concern would be if he is permitted to generate funds by selling a prized asset, not that we have many.
I dont think the board are that fussed. They want him to keep us up and if they feel that needs to happen to improve where he sees weakness they will do it.
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John Percy Tweeted
Sam Allardyce is bringing in Robbie Stockdale as first-team coach at #wba. Stockdale was on Allardyce’s backroom staff at Sunderland and is expected to join before the weekend
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Allardyce has done a good job keeping teams in the division so he must have some value. Give the bloke a chance as is usual everyone has the knife sharpened before a ball is kicked.
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John Percy Tweeted
Sam Allardyce is bringing in Robbie Stockdale as first-team coach at #wba. Stockdale was on Allardyce’s backroom staff at Sunderland and is expected to join before the weekend
He is currently Hibs No 2
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Liked what he said about teaching them to believe they can win rather than go out and dont lose. Talked about changing their mentality and supporting them mentally.
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It seems to me that we have had more media coverage with the appoint of Big Sam and haven’t seen the likes since Big Ron was appointed.
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I don't know, I don't watch Sky, I was just going off what's been reported on the O/S.
The Sky report at the trading ground has just reaffirmed that there is a break clause at the end of the season
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It seems to me Bilic and Allardyce have one thing in common. They were both the best available options at the time of their respective appointments.
I'm as disappointed as anyone that Bilic was fired, even though I had accepted relegation was probable if he stayed. But although I could accept that, its not my money or responsibility. The Board had to act to give the club a chance and so they have. Now I'd say we have a 50/50 chance and at the very least we'll see 'Man City game like' organisation/defending/desire from now on.
Thank you Slaven Bilic for everything and good luck Sam Allardyce; the next great escape starts here!
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
Excellent post Albionic. I am fully aware that Bilic going is not Sam's fault, but the fact that we are willing to lower ourselves to hiring him, coupled with the inexcusably unprofessional way in which news was allowed to break of Slav's release, just shows what a sorry state the leadership of our club is in. I am not a poor supporter, and I have poured heart and soul into the club for nearly 50 years. I am simply lamenting where we have allowed ourselves to go as a club.
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Where are Bolton now? And how come, at every single club he's been at since, the fans have protested against the quality of the football. Even when they were sitting 3rd fans still wanted him out.
Just for balance, that Bolton team was almost 2 decades ago, and even arsenal fans wanted wenger out.
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It seems to me that we have had more media coverage with the appoint of Big Sam and haven’t seen the likes since Big Ron was appointed.
Yep. All Big Sam needs to do is do a Big Ron for us a la 78/79. :D
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https://socceronsunday.com/article/big-sam-on-west-brom-the-passing-and-the-fannying-about-stops-now/ (https://socceronsunday.com/article/big-sam-on-west-brom-the-passing-and-the-fannying-about-stops-now/)
Sam Allardyce has laid out his roadmap for achieving survival with West Brom, currently second from bottom in the Premier League. The 66 year-old veteran replaced Slaven Bilic yesterday on an 18 month contract.
Big Sam“We’ll be more direct,†Allardyce told Soccer on Sunday. “No disrespect to Slaven, but there’s been too much fannying about. Passing, and all that foreign nonsense. Well, read my lips — the passing stops now. We’ll stick a fat-arsed lummox up top, and launch balls at him for 90 minutes. If God didn’t want the ball played in the air, he wouldn’t have invented the sky. That’s just science.â€
“Nutrition, formations,†said the former Everton boss. “Forget all that greasy foreign hocus pocus. It’ll be bacon butties before matches, a few sneaky cigarettes at halftime, eight to ten pints of bitter after the game, a kebab, and then face-plant through the front door when the missus hears you struggling with your key.â€
“Scoops anyone?†he added. “I’m buying.â€
;D
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[Stockdale] is currently Hibs No 2
He's not actually, he was sacked after 9 months in Nov 2019 along with then manager Paul Heckingbottom. It doesn't look like he's had a formal coaching job since then so, if he joins us, it'll be an opportunity for him to impress after being out for a while.
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https://socceronsunday.com/article/big-sam-on-west-brom-the-passing-and-the-fannying-about-stops-now/ (https://socceronsunday.com/article/big-sam-on-west-brom-the-passing-and-the-fannying-about-stops-now/)
Sam Allardyce has laid out his roadmap for achieving survival with West Brom, currently second from bottom in the Premier League. The 66 year-old veteran replaced Slaven Bilic yesterday on an 18 month contract.
Big Sam“We’ll be more direct,†Allardyce told Soccer on Sunday. “No disrespect to Slaven, but there’s been too much fannying about. Passing, and all that foreign nonsense. Well, read my lips — the passing stops now. We’ll stick a fat-arsed lummox up top, and launch balls at him for 90 minutes. If God didn’t want the ball played in the air, he wouldn’t have invented the sky. That’s just science.â€
“Nutrition, formations,†said the former Everton boss. “Forget all that greasy foreign hocus pocus. It’ll be bacon butties before matches, a few sneaky cigarettes at halftime, eight to ten pints of bitter after the game, a kebab, and then face-plant through the front door when the missus hears you struggling with your key.â€
“Scoops anyone?†he added. “I’m buying.â€
;D
I like it. :D
In all fairness wasn't he rumoured to be way ahead of his time when it came to sports science and nutrition etc?
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Having sat on this for 24 hours I believe that the clubs appointment of Allardyce is a shrewd move. Lai obviously wants out of the club and, as has been stated before, if we manage to stay in this league there is far more chance of attracting a buyer. OK, the timing of Slav’s dismissal was wrong. Should have been done after we were thumped at home by Crystal Palace but presumably we were still in discussions with Allardyce and didn't want to make an announcement about Slav until we were certain that Sam was coming.
The timing of the announcement after an excellent performance at the Etihad may have seemed wrong but the cynic in me thinks that the players were aware of what was happening behind the scenes and didn’t perform out of the skins to show support for Slav, but were trying to impress the new Manager (or head coach, or whatever).
Allardyce has 8 Premiership fixtures and a cup tie before the January transfer window closes so a reasonable amount of games to assess the squad and see what additions need to be made.
Whether the board will back him or not, who knows.
I think they probably will, as survival in this league is crucial to Lai getting a reasonable return on his investment.
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Whether the board will back him or not, who knows.
I think they probably will, as survival in this league is crucial to Lai getting a reasonable return on his investment.
Wasn't that also the case back in the summer?
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I like it. :D
In all fairness wasn't he rumoured to be way ahead of his time when it came to sports science and nutrition etc?
Yes he was during his Bolton and Newcastle times anyway. Had a massive entourage of staff with him.
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The lower tiers are full of yesterdays clubs living off former glories, most of you ones you've just mentioned have better trophy cabinets than us and more recent too.
They would all gladly swap places with us even as we stand at this moment in time.
So you'd be happy with league 2 football? so 3 relegations, endless defeats, dwindling crowds, awful players, financial Armageddon, staff losses the list goes on just to get rid of Lai?
If you're going to comment on my post do me the favour of reading it properly. I never wrote that i would be happy.
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Very good interview on the official site. Come on Sam , COYB
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Some of our fans reactions are nothing other than childish.
It's not Slaven Bilic we support, its West Bromwich Albion and that means through the tricky times as well as the good.
It's not Sam's fault what happened to Slaven.
Get behind Sam and the team for God's sake.
Nice one Atomic. Like your style 👏🏻👍🏻
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If you're going to comment on my post do me the favour of reading it properly. I never wrote that i would be happy.
it was hard to work out what point you were trying to make.
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Sorry I'll draw a picture next time
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I like it. :D
In all fairness wasn't he rumoured to be way ahead of his time when it came to sports science and nutrition etc?
Important but not as important as hours of practising passing, dribbling and shooting.
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Important but not as important as hours of practising passing, dribbling and shooting.
Is that what we've been doing this season then? If it is we haven't been doing any of it properly! I must have missed it
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Is that what we've been doing this season then? If it is we haven't been doing any of it properly! I must have missed it
Very true, results aside it's not been great to watch either.
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Very good interview on the official site. Come on Sam , COYB
Just read it shame the club spelt Bryan Robson name incorrectly! Let’s hope for their sake they have got this right!
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Sam clarified in an interview that he got free tickets to Wolves and Albion as a kid and went to both, he did say at one point he was a Wolves fan as a kid.
"You used to get free tickets for home games back then. I used to come along and watch Jeff Astle, and Browny (Tony Brown). I did fluctuate between Wolves and West Brom" off the bham mail site.
My mate who supports Wolves said he's not liked there and said he can't be that big of a fan because the one time they offered him the job there he turned it down flat for Palace i think.
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I think he only got free tickets for Albion’s home games as he was friends with the Minton twins, whose older brother Roger played for the Albion.
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Excellent post. I'm sure younger fans might not see how there could be an "Albion way" of playing but, even if you don't think there is such a thing surely, if you still believe that football is a "fans' game", in this day and age football has to be regarded as being about entertainment more than anything else?
If our club is widely associated with the Pulis's and the Allardyces of the football world, what hope is there going to be of attracting new fans going forward? Over time, the number of fans is just going to dwindle away if we keep returning to football dinosaurs to be our manager.
The club needs to box more cleverly than this, it needs to get back to Albion being regarded in a positive light generally in football circles, both in the overall ethos of the club and in the way that it plays football. Scrabbling around in the mud each season just trying to stay up to keep the owner happy won't be enough going forward.
The club is drifting and visionless, which means it's going to hit the rocks sooner or later if it continues like that.
I'm 16 I briefly remember Hodgson I was into Football but not deeply like I am now. I didn't even know the rules. I remember Steve Clarke and Lukaku we were attacking and coming at teams. I remember my dad saying Albion used to be respected and sometimes other teams would dread going there as we would attack and make it hard. The fact is we are not seen as that now We are just another club in the big Boys eyes who they have to play to get there 3 Points to Win the league go to Europe so on and that is a sad Demise which I only saw Pulis, Pardew and the happy days of Moore and Billic the sad fact is with these owners we aren't going to get our reputation back. I'll back Allardyce or try to but at the end of the day Billic made me enjoy lockdown he made me feel passionate and proud of what this small club from the Black Country are capable of now I don't know If I can feel proud as Pulls was sad hopefully Allardyce can play like he did at Bolton
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I think he only got free tickets for Albion’s home games as he was friends with the Minton twins, whose older brother Roger played for the Albion.
Yes he mentioned someones brother played for the Albion as well but no names.
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Yes he mentioned someones brother played for the Albion as well but no names.
He definitely mentioned, by name, the Minton twins and Roger their older brother
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I have seen posts on here saying things like "managers / players come and go the club will be here long after them"
The crux for me is the club is what we all associate with, and MY club is one that was first to play in china, first to play the red army, first to embrace black footballers, a club where the fans mattered, a club which other fans acknowledged as a proper football club and many "supported' as a second club, I could walk into a pub and proudly state I support west brom and others would give a little nod of appreciation , or say 'always liked them, proper club, proper fans"
Now, we are an ex-pulis club, a club managed by a man despised across the nation, a club who the media say embarrass the top tier, a club whose fans will accept anyone to maintain their place at the the periphery of the top table. A club whose fans are mocked and considered "a joke club', A club who takes good men like Darren Moore and Slaven Bilic and casts them aside without pause.
Come on here and tell me that makes me a poor supporter and you can get stuffed, its because I care about the club and not a short term aspiration to suck a few more quid from Chinese & african "fans" who have zero affinity with english football and will be Real madrid / Bayern Munich fans next year. Unacceptable.
I have always been proud to be a baggie, now ???? And that hurts .... badly !!
Great Post I highly agree. My mate showed me pictures of his cousinis non school uniform day as his Cousin a Baggies Fan wore his West Brom Shirt that his dad got him with 9 Astle on the back most of the other boys were wearing Man Utd, Liverpool or Man City Kits. I wouldn't mind if they supported Villa or Wolves there local us three founded the god damn league. We have more history And slowly that is all being glossed over by the Media like we aren't important. And my mate said his Cousin had people saying Albion are pooh but a Wolves Fan not wearing his shirt came up to his cousin and said Fair Play. At the end of the day I'll back Big Sam like any Manager I would have preferred Billic he understood the fans and the club. But this once great historic club people respected is now a laughing stock and only respected by our rivals as they have been through it to.
Also wasn't Darren Moore the first Black Manager or Caribbean manager to manage in the men's game in the top two division's as can't think of any if so that is yet more history for us to be proud of that was ignored by the Media.
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He definitely mentioned, by name, the Minton twins and Roger their older brother
Not in my article :( Wheres yours from Albionfan, sounds like mines missing some small details
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The view I hold is that I am Pro Bilic as opposed to Anti Sam...I imagine a number of fans share this view.
I would have kept Bilic but in terms of his replacement I struggle to think of a better candidate out there than him.
As others have said we've no prospect of long term vision for the club sadly with the owners that we have.
The outcome we all want is new owners; the owners are more likely to get the money they want for the club by us being a premier league club. The manager most likely to get us premier league status and in turn potentially an offer that will be accepted for the club and new owners....Sam Allardyce.
Same I'm pro Bilic I'll back Sam but I don't like the way we are being run. We had no money expect Bilic to go with it and aim for 17th
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I thought bilic had run his course, the club needed a change.....BUT I absolutely cannot understand anyone saying get behind Allardyce.
I don’t care if he had Steve bull or Jack Grealish tattooed on his aris,it’s nothing to do with that, I don’t care if he’s criticised West Brom fans previously either
What I do care about his he had the no1 English football job....and did what he did, shouldn’t be allowed near a stadium, let alone manage, he’s a disgrace to the game, the country and anyone with any form of moral compass will tell him so.
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Is that what we've been doing this season then? If it is we haven't been doing any of it properly! I must have missed it
That's not what I was getting at. My point is that improving fitness and stamina is important, but of more fundamental importance is getting players super confident with the ball. That's what the late Johan Cruyff said. There is no substitute for hours and hours practice of trapping, passing, dribbling and shooting with a football.
And yes, there is plenty of room for improvement for our players under those headings.
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It isnt true it's way over the top. It's just the perception some people believe. Allardyce is not hated nationwide and we are not seen as a joke. Anyone that thinks we are a joke as one of the top 20 clubs in the country is a joke in themselves and that really, seriously is their problem.
Thanks for telling me what you think. Unfortunately I cannot agree. People have differing opinions and that is life.
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I'm convinced Billic developed a true passion for the club. I remember hearing him explain how he quite specifically chose Albion as a club he wanted to manage, and even in his final speech he called us 'unique' and said he wished the club well. I believe he was sincere about that.
Although I'm disappointed Bilic has departed, and I wanted Nigel Pearson as next best of the names being touted, it would be interesting to know more of what has motivated SA to come to the Albion. I doubt he still needs to pay off his mortgage. One of the few things I like about his appointment, is that he comes from Dudley, he will know the area, he will know the club and its culture and he probably knows a fair few Albion fans on a personal basis. As one of the jobs of a manager is to communicate with fans, that may a special asset of his. It would be good to hear some warm words about the Albion from him.
My dad said Allardyce always Wanted to be our manager so had we offered him the job when Bolton offered him a job we could have been them. I think Allardyce only said things maybe to get at us at maybe he is one of us deep down. Anyway I don't won't to get shot down hence as I've always said I'll back him and wish him luck I'll follow us this is my Team. I still feel sad about Bilic he didn't desevere the treatment he got he was a genuine nice bloke but Sam is here and well he won't be Bilic but it is what it is
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Thanks for telling me what you think. Unfortunately I cannot agree. People have differing opinions and that is life.
He is right though. To say he’s hated nationwide suggests it’s by everyone in the country, which as you said by stating people have differing opinions, it isn’t.
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Sam clarified in an interview that he got free tickets to Wolves and Albion as a kid and went to both, he did say at one point he was a Wolves fan as a kid.
"You used to get free tickets for home games back then. I used to come along and watch Jeff Astle, and Browny (Tony Brown). I did fluctuate between Wolves and West Brom" off the bham mail site.
My mate who supports Wolves said he's not liked there and said he can't be that big of a fan because the one time they offered him the job there he turned it down flat for Palace i think.
I thought he came across well when he was talking about Albion and the Wolves. Maybe him being a Wolves fan has been overhyped by some of our fans. Not everyone is so fanatically split one way or the other. Anyway, we're talking about more than 40 years ago, since when he's managed a whole bunch of clubs.
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I thought that was excellent interview on the website - interesting to hear him focusing on the mental side with the players in terms of the fine margins but also the home games without crowds too.
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I thought he came across well when he was talking about Albion and the Wolves. Maybe him being a Wolves fan has been overhyped by some of our fans. Not everyone is so fanatically split one way or the other. Anyway, we're talking about more than 40 years ago, since when he's managed a whole bunch of clubs.
I think he's being patronising, just not doing it for me at the moment.
Hope he's not being the same to the players.
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I thought he came across well when he was talking about Albion and the Wolves. Maybe him being a Wolves fan has been overhyped by some of our fans. Not everyone is so fanatically split one way or the other. Anyway, we're talking about more than 40 years ago, since when he's managed a whole bunch of clubs.
Yep sounds like he was a wishy-washy kid. Supporting one and the other. Like i say my pal said hes not liked there, hes not been too complimentary about them apparently and also rejected them outright when they wanted him.
Saying that he could be the ultimate number 1 mega-dingle but if he keeps us up i dont give 2 tomtits
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Yep sounds like he was a wishy-washy kid. Supporting one and the other. Like i say my pal said hes not liked there, hes not been too complimentary about them apparently and also rejected them outright when they wanted him.
Saying that he could be the ultimate number 1 mega-dingle but if he keeps us up i dont give 2 tomtits
I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
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I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
I've also heard that, if there was more than 1 local team kids would fluctuate. Sounds weird to me but im an 80s kid so what do i know ;D
Like you say in the 70s with hooliganism etc i would say that swopping of teams ended and the tribalism began in earnest.
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I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
If you listen to Jamie Carragher, Gary Neville, or dare I say, Don Goodman, you wouldn't be listening too many minutes before it was blindingly obvious who they supported. However, with Allardyce I've never heard him say alot about Wolves. Not saying he doesn't have sympathies there, but he's moved around alot through his career, and he's nowhere near being a one club man. And bear in mind, this is the third time he's been under contract at West Brom.
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I remember him being inebriated about the time with Talbot and not being given a shot at managing us. time is obviously a good healer.
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Listening to him there seems to be an air of 'unfinished business'with him
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I remember him being inebriated about the time with Talbot and not being given a shot at managing us. time is obviously a good healer.
The weekly wage and bonus to keep us up probably helped heal that too.
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I remember him being inebriated about the time with Talbot and not being given a shot at managing us. time is obviously a good healer.
He does mention in one the interviews today he was gutted about getting the sack but also deserved it. It was 30 years ago and he's done very well since then so it all worked out in the end.
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Listening to him there seems to be an air of 'unfinished business'with him
You may have hit the nail on the head there. Obviously those that forced him out years ago, will be long gone, but if he still has strong connections in the area, the chances are he knows a fair few Albion fans on a personal basis. There may well be a certain satisfaction in being able to say, hey look how I've dug your lot out of the mire. Or he could have a genuine sense of doing something for his local community. I doubt he's doing it just for the money.
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I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
Until I was deemed old enough to be allowed to travel to away matches I used to watch both clubs. Mind you, I never had the slightest doubt as to which I supported.
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There are many reasons to dislike Allardyce but his boyhood affiliation is not one of them. Being only slightly younger than him I certainly can confirm that only from the 70's onwards that football became as tribal as it is today. Certainly when I was growing up some fans would go to Villa Park one week and the Hawthorns the next. My Dad who was a life long Albion fan never understood me wanting the Villa to lose, aside from the times we played them he would always want the other West Midlands teams to do well.
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Sam went to play for Bolton Wanderers at the age of 14, he's Bolton through & through, including his accent.
Not saying he won't do a job for us, but I'm not impressed by his pseudo Black Country allegiance.
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I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
Yes it was more common. I am and always have been Albion,but me and a group of mates were roughly split 50/50 Albion and Wolves, and we used to stand on the North Bank when Wolves were at home, and then all on the Brummie when Albion were at home
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Sam went to play for Bolton Wanderers at the age of 14, he's Bolton through & through, including his accent.
Not saying he won't do a job for us, but I'm not impressed by his pseudo Black Country allegiance.
Even though he was born in Dudley?
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I am struggling a bit here to understand why we are questioning where his allegiance lies, who he supports, what he did when he was a nipper etc
He has an 18 month contract and is on a £2m bonus to keep us up. I think regardless of what he did as a lad, or who he supported and/or played for, he is an employee tasked to do a job, and I have no doubt he will do it to the best of his ability.
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Sam went to play for Bolton Wanderers at the age of 14, he's Bolton through & through, including his accent.
Not saying he won't do a job for us, but I'm not impressed by his pseudo Black Country allegiance.
Some People wouldn’t be impressed even if he pooh a golden egg.
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Even though he was born in Dudley?
Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.
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I’ve heard quite a few of the older generation say in the past it was far more common in the 50’s and 60’s to go to Albion and wolves. Obviously not everyone would have done it, but some did. I imagine by the 70’s and 80’s with the football culture and environment at the time people had to nail their flag to the mast but as a young boy it’s not impossible he was one of many that did go to both regularly.
My father worked Saturdays but I had one friend whose father supported the Wolves and one who supported the Albion and every other boy in my lane supported the Villa. So as I couldn't choose and the entrance was often paid for I would find myself watching all three. It wasn't unusual in those days as there were not so many restrictions (membership etc). However, the smirking arrogance of the Villa fans turned me off and my father came from an Albion family so that's where my allegiance went and still is.
There's been ups and downs (possibly more of the latter) along the way but as I say to my kids a supporter needs to be steadfast. We'll have to judge SA by his deeds - he got a lot to do repair his reputation but this is his chance.
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Here here.
Gutted about Slaven. Big Sam is here now. It's nice to hear a Blackcountry accent in charge and he has spoken fondly and deflected the Wolves Fan question well.
Looking forward to read everything the club post and it would be nice if we aren't ding this all over again in 12-18 months.
Black Country accent?! Lancashire you mean?
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Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.
Hark at the "Duke"! LOL! good one! :D
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Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.
But it might make you Corberan!
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We should never have sacked Slav! He's hardly been backed in terms of transfer funds. I'll get behind Big Sam and I think he'll get us solid.
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Who Allardyce supports is the least of our problems.
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Morning all. Thought I’d have my say now we’ve brought in Allardyce and some of the hysteria of Tuesday evening/Wednesday has died down.
First off, I’m sad to see Slav go and deeply unimpressed with the manner in which it unfolded - he deserved much better. A good man and the football from August-March was a joy to watch last season. A really enjoyable time to be a fan and the club owe him a debt for uniting the club and fanbase again after an aimless, meandering few years. However, he has gone and, for better or worse, the conversation will move on.
As for the appointment of Allardyce; I’m feeling pretty optimistic.
The football is definitely direct and any successes are generally built on the back of clean sheets but it’s a bit of a misnomer that he’s another Pulis. I don’t expect we’ll be camped on the edge of our own box at home, with centre-backs at full-back against lower mid-table opposition; Newcastle, Leeds and the like, a la Pulis.
I actually think he’s a very good manager who has been unfairly lumped in with the likes of Pulis, Hughes, Pardew et al. He is a much more progressive manager than that.
For example, he is widely renowned as being the innovator behind the influx of sports science in the game, taking influence from American football after visiting the US in the late 90’s; so much so that Alex Ferguson has referenced Big Sam as the forerunner of statistical analysis in English football.
Of course, he’s not at the forefront of managerial innovation these days but the point is, his reputation of his football being hoofball, ‘sit-on-the-edge-of-your-own-box-for-90-mins’ isn’t consistent with the reality. Functional is one thing. A dinosaur is quite another. Though Liverpool fans would describe him as the latter, I’d say Hodgson was functional - and we all hold him in very high regard. There is a place for functional and functional can still bring excitement, good results and winning football.
Back to Allardyce. Sure, he’s a smug, loudmouth, d*ckhead sometimes and that hasn’t helped his reputation, but he’s incredibly successful at what he does. He did undeniably excellent jobs at Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland and Palace; clubs of a similar size to us, the latter three in similar predicaments when he took over.
Then there are the ‘failings’ at Newcastle, West Ham and Everton; three clubs with famously hysterical fan bases and an inflated sense of ’the way’; The West Ham ‘way’, the Everton ‘way’.
Fact is, he did good job at West Ham and moved on at the right time; promotion, 10th, 13th, 12th. At Everton he finished 8th; a position they have only bettered once in the last 6 seasons. But when you’ve just spent £50m on Gylfi Sigurdsson and about to spent another £50m on Richarlison, the fans are going to think they’re entitled to a top 4 finish. Needless to say, they finished 8th again the following season and 12th last season.
Meanwhile, at Newcastle he lost his job while the club were 11th because the fans wanted Champions League football, a la the Robson, Shearer, Solano years. However, these were the Alan Smith, Habib Beye and crocked Michael Owen years. 18 months later they were playing Championship football.
Conclusion? I don’t think he’s done a bad job wherever he has been.
Bit of a d*ckhead? Sure. Will he sit deep against the likes of Leicester at home? Probably. But he won’t against Palace, or Burnley, or Fulham. And that was the soul-crushing part of the Pulis years. We did that against everyone, every week.
Contrary to Pulis, he has always had a flair player or two in the side; Djorkaeff, Okocha, Anelka, Stelios at Bolton. David Dunn, who was excellent under Big Sam at Blackburn. Zaha and Townsend at Palace. He got the best out of Jermain Defoe at Sunderland with 18 league goals, dispelling the myth that his football is all about ‘hoofing it up top to the big man’.
I’m excited to see how things develop for Grady and Pereira with Big Sam. I fear for Krovinovic and Robinson a bit; all four are lightweight, but the former two have better end product.
I think we’ll see Phillips and Gibbs come back into the fold. Austin to be used more regularly. Livermore and Sawyers to be used in defensive midfield as a pair, pending a defensive midfield purchase in January.
Sunderland needed one. He bought Kirschoff. They stayed up. Palace needed one. He bought Milivojevic. They stayed up. Incidentally, the latter may be available this January, having only started 5 games so far this season, though currently earns 55k p/w.
I imagine the centre backs will be Ajayi and one from Ivanovic and O’Shea. Could see him starting with Ivanovic before realising O’Shea is better. I think Big Sam will be great for Ajayi and O’Shea actually. Not to mention the other Big Sam, in goal.
Anyway. Ramble over, that’s my tuppence worth. I’m pro-Allardyce. A 1-0 win against the Villa and most people will be too! COYB.
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Morning all. Thought I’d have my say now we’ve brought in Allardyce and some of the hysteria of Tuesday evening/Wednesday has died down.
First off, I’m sad to see Slav go and deeply unimpressed with the manner in which it unfolded - he deserved much better. A good man and the football from August-March was a joy to watch last season. A really enjoyable time to be a fan and the club owe him a debt for uniting the club and fanbase again after an aimless, meandering few years. However, he has gone and, for better or worse, the conversation will move on.
As for the appointment of Allardyce; I’m feeling pretty optimistic.
The football is definitely direct and any successes are generally built on the back of clean sheets but it’s a bit of a misnomer that he’s another Pulis. I don’t expect we’ll be camped on the edge of our own box at home, with centre-backs at full-back against lower mid-table opposition; Newcastle, Leeds and the like, a la Pulis.
I actually think he’s a very good manager who has been unfairly lumped in with the likes of Pulis, Hughes, Pardew et al. He is a much more progressive manager than that.
For example, he is widely renowned as being the innovator behind the influx of sports science in the game, taking influence from American football after visiting the US in the late 90’s; so much so that Alex Ferguson has referenced Big Sam as the forerunner of statistical analysis in English football.
Of course, he’s not at the forefront of managerial innovation these days but the point is, his reputation of his football being hoofball, ‘sit-on-the-edge-of-your-own-box-for-90-mins’ isn’t consistent with the reality. Functional is one thing. A dinosaur is quite another. Though Liverpool fans would describe him as the latter, I’d say Hodgson was functional - and we all hold him in very high regard. There is a place for functional and functional can still bring excitement, good results and winning football.
Back to Allardyce. Sure, he’s a smug, loudmouth, d*ckhead sometimes and that hasn’t helped his reputation, but he’s incredibly successful at what he does. He did undeniably excellent jobs at Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland and Palace; clubs of a similar size to us, the latter three in similar predicaments when he took over.
Then there are the ‘failings’ at Newcastle, West Ham and Everton; three clubs with famously hysterical fan bases and an inflated sense of ’the way’; The West Ham ‘way’, the Everton ‘way’.
Fact is, he did good job at West Ham and moved on at the right time; promotion, 10th, 13th, 12th. At Everton he finished 8th; a position they have only bettered once in the last 6 seasons. But when you’ve just spent £50m on Gylfi Sigurdsson and about to spent another £50m on Richarlison, the fans are going to think they’re entitled to a top 4 finish. Needless to say, they finished 8th again the following season and 12th last season.
Meanwhile, at Newcastle he lost his job while the club were 11th because the fans wanted Champions League football, a la the Robson, Shearer, Solano years. However, these were the Alan Smith, Habib Beye and crocked Michael Owen years. 18 months later they were playing Championship football.
Conclusion? I don’t think he’s done a bad job wherever he has been.
Bit of a d*ckhead? Sure. Will he sit deep against the likes of Leicester at home? Probably. But he won’t against Palace, or Burnley, or Fulham. And that was the soul-crushing part of the Pulis years. We did that against everyone, every week.
Contrary to Pulis, he has always had a flair player or two in the side; Djorkaeff, Okocha, Anelka, Stelios at Bolton. David Dunn, who was excellent under Big Sam at Blackburn. Zaha and Townsend at Palace. He got the best out of Jermain Defoe at Sunderland with 18 league goals, dispelling the myth that his football is all about ‘hoofing it up top to the big man’.
I’m excited to see how things develop for Grady and Pereira with Big Sam. I fear for Krovinovic and Robinson a bit; all four are lightweight, but the former two have better end product.
I think we’ll see Phillips and Gibbs come back into the fold. Austin to be used more regularly. Livermore and Sawyers to be used in defensive midfield as a pair, pending a defensive midfield purchase in January.
Sunderland needed one. He bought Kirschoff. They stayed up. Palace needed one. He bought Milivojevic. They stayed up. Incidentally, the latter may be available this January, having only started 5 games so far this season, though currently earns 55k p/w.
I imagine the centre backs will be Ajayi and one from Ivanovic and O’Shea. Could see him starting with Ivanovic before realising O’Shea is better. I think Big Sam will be great for Ajayi and O’Shea actually. Not to mention the other Big Sam, in goal.
Anyway. Ramble over, that’s my tuppence worth. I’m pro-Allardyce. A 1-0 win against the Villa and most people will be too! COYB.
Best post so far we’re in the position we’re in so let’s move on and support the lads and gaffer
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You may have hit the nail on the head there. Obviously those that forced him out years ago, will be long gone, but if he still has strong connections in the area, the chances are he knows a fair few Albion fans on a personal basis. There may well be a certain satisfaction in being able to say, hey look how I've dug your lot out of the mire. Or he could have a genuine sense of doing something for his local community. I doubt he's doing it just for the money.
Sam Allardyce? :o
You are aware of why he had to leave the England job, right?
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I am struggling a bit here to understand why we are questioning where his allegiance lies, who he supports, what he did when he was a nipper etc
He has an 18 month contract and is on a £2m bonus to keep us up. I think regardless of what he did as a lad, or who he supported and/or played for, he is an employee tasked to do a job, and I have no doubt he will do it to the best of his ability.
Personally, I'm not bothered where his allegiance lies, if he keeps us up & gives either this owner or new owners the confidence to put some development cash into the club then I'll be happy.
In my opinion, Sam's in it for Sam, that's all.
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Not in my article :( Wheres yours from Albionfan, sounds like mines missing some small details
The reference to to the Minton's was made during Big Sam's interview with Rob Dorsett on Sky News. Sam went on to say how he enjoyed going to the Hawthorns to watch the likes of Astle and Bomber Brown
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The reference to to the Minton's was made during Big Sam's interview with Rob Dorsett on Sky News. Sam went on to say how he enjoyed going to the Hawthorns to watch the likes of Astle and Bomber Brown
Thanks for that. I'll try and find it online.
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James 'Mozza' Morrison has joined Sams coaching staff with Robbie Stockdale
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/mozza-and-stockdale-join-first-team-coaching-staff
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There are many reasons to dislike Allardyce but his boyhood affiliation is not one of them. Being only slightly younger than him I certainly can confirm that only from the 70's onwards that football became as tribal as it is today. Certainly when I was growing up some fans would go to Villa Park one week and the Hawthorns the next. My Dad who was a life long Albion fan never understood me wanting the Villa to lose, aside from the times we played them he would always want the other West Midlands teams to do well.
Same I want them to all do well makes our formerly great Industrial area proud of something the fact is we have three teams in the Top Flight of English Football it creates money and jobs for the local areas we are in eg Albion West Brom Town Centre, Handsworth, Smethwick, Merry Hill. Wolves for Whitmore Reins, Compton, Tettenhall, Wolvo City Centre, Telford so on. Villa for Aston, Witton, Perry Barr, Newtown and Birmingham City Centre closest to Aston. Of course if we play them I hope we win. Or if Villa are being slimey and Cheating I hope to see them get thumped just to shut there fans up. Eg against Wolves they were slimey was hoping Wolves then beat them to shut them up as Villa didn't desevere to Win
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James 'Mozza' Morrison has joined Sams coaching staff with Robbie Stockdale
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/mozza-and-stockdale-join-first-team-coaching-staff
That's a fast promotion from the U23s! He mentioned in an interview that coaching was a lot tougher than he gave his coaches credit for
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That's a fast promotion from the U23s! He mentioned in an interview that coaching was a lot tougher than he gave his coaches credit for
Yep, must be a quick learner our James. TBF he had plenty of time to read up in the physio room all those years :P
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James 'Mozza' Morrison has joined Sams coaching staff with Robbie Stockdale
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/mozza-and-stockdale-join-first-team-coaching-staff
That's a smart move as well, immediately puts a friendly face into the new regime.
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That's a smart move as well, immediately puts a friendly face into the new regime.
I agree. Good go between if needed, knows the club inside and out.
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Personally, I'm not bothered where his allegiance lies, if he keeps us up & gives either this owner or new owners the confidence to put some development cash into the club then I'll be happy.
In my opinion, Sam's in it for Sam, that's all.
As someone who is not a fan of his style of football, I was trying to point out some positives, and having Black Country roots must be one. It ought to give him some affinity with the fans and a better understanding of the club's culture.
On the Wolves issue, there are clearly many examples of managers who don't manage their childhood clubs, but it can't be easy managing a club you had a very strong dislike of, against the team you previously supported. However, I'm heartened by his recent comments and it doesn't seem he falls into the fanatical category. Also, don't forget he's signed more contracts at West Brom, three, than anywhere else.
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As someone who is not a fan of his style of football, I was trying to point out some positives, and having Black Country roots must be one. It ought to give him some affinity with the fans and a better understanding of the club's culture.
On the Wolves issue, there are clearly many examples of managers who don't manage their childhood clubs, but it can't be easy managing a club you had a very strong dislike of, against the team you previously supported. However, I'm heartened by his recent comments and it doesn't seem he falls into the fanatical category. Also, don't forget he's signed more contracts at West Brom, three, than anywhere else.
As Albion fan born and bread in Wolverhampton, I can give you a little more insight here Alex.
The rivalry really didn’t intensify until we sold Bully to the Dingles in 1986. Until that point, the rivalry itself was considered more cordial.
My family is completely divided in terms of football. The (better) one half are Albion, the other half are Dingles. My Dad and his brothers, who are around the same age as Big Sam, were taken to both Albion games and Wolves games by both their father and their grandfather. Although my Dad and his brothers (and their families too) are Albion fans, they never had any issues with Wolves fans in terms of intense rivalry during the 60’s, 70’s and for the most part the 80’s too. The problems really started from 1990 onwards.
What Big Sam was saying about attending matches of both clubs in that particular era is very likely to ring true. What I’d also say is at no point has he ever managed the Dingles. And I’m sure they’ve wanted him at one point or another and could have afforded his wages too, buts it’s never happened.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s more Albion than Wolves, although I respect as a Dudley born lad he’s been involved from a fans point of view with both clubs at one time or another 👍🏻
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As Albion fan born and bread in Wolverhampton, I can give you a little more insight here Alex.
The rivalry really didn’t intensify until we sold Bully to the Dingles in 1986. Until that point, the rivalry itself was considered more cordial.
My family is completely divided in terms of football. The (better) one half are Albion, the other half are Dingles. My Dad and his brothers, who are around the same age as Big Sam, were taken to both Albion games and Wolves games by both their father and their grandfather. Although my Dad and his brothers (and their families too) are Albion fans, they never had any issues with Wolves fans in terms of intense rivalry during the 60’s, 70’s and for the most part the 80’s too. The problems really started from 1990 onwards.
What Big Sam was saying about attending matches of both clubs in that particular era is very likely to ring true. What I’d also say is at no point has he ever managed the Dingles. And I’m sure they’ve wanted him at one point or another and could have afforded his wages too, buts it’s never happened.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s more Albion than Wolves, although I respect as a Dudley born lad he’s been involved from a fans point of view with both clubs at one time or another 👍🏻
My great or great great Grandad played for the Wolves and scored the winner against the Albion 100 odd years ago! Does that make me a dingle :o
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As Albion fan born and bread in Wolverhampton, I can give you a little more insight here Alex.
The rivalry really didn’t intensify until we sold Bully to the Dingles in 1986. Until that point, the rivalry itself was considered more cordial.
My family is completely divided in terms of football. The (better) one half are Albion, the other half are Dingles. My Dad and his brothers, who are around the same age as Big Sam, were taken to both Albion games and Wolves games by both their father and their grandfather. Although my Dad and his brothers (and their families too) are Albion fans, they never had any issues with Wolves fans in terms of intense rivalry during the 60’s, 70’s and for the most part the 80’s too. The problems really started from 1990 onwards.
What Big Sam was saying about attending matches of both clubs in that particular era is very likely to ring true. What I’d also say is at no point has he ever managed the Dingles. And I’m sure they’ve wanted him at one point or another and could have afforded his wages too, buts it’s never happened.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s more Albion than Wolves, although I respect as a Dudley born lad he’s been involved from a fans point of view with both clubs at one time or another 👍🏻
If only that were true! I started watching football in 67 I didn't even know where Wolverhampton was the first couple of seasons they were a division below then got promoted.
That day at the Albion I will never forget I lived in Smethwick so found myself walking home with that lot all of a sudden this spoty youth twice the size of me snarled in my face " you were lucky to draw" I looked around and they all were glowering at me a rather small kid for my age was I glad to see a copper!
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Sorry if this link has already been posted but an interesting article on SA in the Telegraph (under a paywall).
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/12/16/big-sam-yesterdays-man-desperate-appointment-west-brom/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget
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As Albion fan born and bread in Wolverhampton, I can give you a little more insight here Alex.
The rivalry really didn’t intensify until we sold Bully to the Dingles in 1986. Until that point, the rivalry itself was considered more cordial.
My family is completely divided in terms of football. The (better) one half are Albion, the other half are Dingles. My Dad and his brothers, who are around the same age as Big Sam, were taken to both Albion games and Wolves games by both their father and their grandfather. Although my Dad and his brothers (and their families too) are Albion fans, they never had any issues with Wolves fans in terms of intense rivalry during the 60’s, 70’s and for the most part the 80’s too. The problems really started from 1990 onwards.
What Big Sam was saying about attending matches of both clubs in that particular era is very likely to ring true. What I’d also say is at no point has he ever managed the Dingles. And I’m sure they’ve wanted him at one point or another and could have afforded his wages too, buts it’s never happened.
As far as I’m concerned, he’s more Albion than Wolves, although I respect as a Dudley born lad he’s been involved from a fans point of view with both clubs at one time or another 👍🏻
I used to go to Wolves occasionally in the 70s with a mate from school, he came to the Hawthorns sometimes too - he was a proper footballer and would have probably have had a pro career but for knee injuries. He loved football and appreciated the way we played then.
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Who someone in football “supports†is of interest only to us fans. It’s of no importance whatsoever and almost totally irrelevant to those who work in it professionally.
If you make your living as a professional in any business you will of course be focused on doing your job to the best of your ability. If I’d been good enough to be a professional footballer and played against Albion I’d have done my very best to score against them. Someone might have a “soft spot†for one team or other but that’s as far as it would go - that’s the emotion for us fans, but not the cold hard currency of a professional job.
If you think about it for just a second you start to realise how ridiculous it is to even think it makes any difference, other than in the minds of fans. I don’t care who Sam Allardyce watched or “supported†as a kid because it makes literally zero difference to how he’ll do his job. He wouldn’t do the job any better if he’d watched Albion from the day of his birth, and he won’t do it any worse because he may have watched another team.
On a separate note I don’t personally have the Wolves rivalry bug at all - maybe it’s generational, but I’ve always quite liked the Wolves. As others have said I think a lot came from the Bully 1990s, but while I always want us to beat them I’m happier when our West Midland clubs are doing well. London and the Northwest have more than enough dominance already.
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Big Dave was a Villa fan growing up as was Sawyers and Craig Shakespeare too. I couldn't care less who Sam supports as a kid if he gets results.
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Big Dave was a Villa fan growing up as was Sawyers and Craig Shakespeare too. I couldn't care less who Sam supports as a kid if he gets results.
Strange Sawyers himself said he supports the Albion?! Or was he villa before he came here
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Strange Sawyers himself said he supports the Albion?! Or was he villa before he came here
He says it himself here
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/2020/february/the-star-interview-romaine-sawyers
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My great or great great Grandad played for the Wolves and scored the winner against the Albion 100 odd years ago! Does that make me a dingle :o
Afraid so mate , but we will let you off as it's Christmas.
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Sorry if this link has already been posted but an interesting article on SA in the Telegraph (under a paywall).
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/12/16/big-sam-yesterdays-man-desperate-appointment-west-brom/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget
I managed to read the attention grabbing headline, then was blocked because they wanted money from me. Isn’t it amazing how the media usually have little interest in us, until they can find a way to critisise? For example, both Jonathan Greening and Richard Keys were keen to add their disgust of the timing of the sacking, yet another article, on the same day, explained the timing was due to Covid not allowing a smoother transition of coaches. In other words, have someone in control of the team rather than no-one. The decision had been made earlier, but due to circumstances, it had to be delayed. To me, despite allegiances, at least sends a small signal out that there was some thinking behind the timing of the decision. And that only covers the timing. The reasons are even more complicated. But so many people with knee jerk reactionary opinions does my head in sometimes. Especially from those who make a living for for having an opinion. COYB. We’re better than them.
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Great appointment. I expect 8th and possibly Europa league within 2 years
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He says it himself here
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/2020/february/the-star-interview-romaine-sawyers
Yeah that confirms what i said, appreciate the link, ive never read that interview before, thanks mate
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My great or great great Grandad played for the Wolves and scored the winner against the Albion 100 odd years ago! Does that make me a dingle :o
A good a reason as any! ;D
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Yeah that confirms what i said, appreciate the link, ive never read that interview before, thanks mate
No problem :)
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I think the more I think about it I have more it the more I’m unhappy about about Sammy Lee being part of our club than Big Sam. I’ve never been able to stand the guy
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A good a reason as any! ;D
Hey behave yourself ;) When i was told this by my Uncle my words where he ain't no Grandad of mine!!
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Great appointment. I expect 8th and possibly Europa league within 2 years
Blimey, I will have whatever you’re drinking please. 8)
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Allardyce had one transfer window at Everton his last job . In that window he made 3 signings , Tosun, Walcott and one other who played just twice , anybody want to hazard a guess ( no Googling ) !
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At the age of 66, I think his appointment as our Head Coach could be Big Sam's "Last Chance Saloon"
IMO he has to be successful at the Albion or else he will be bombed out of being a big time football Manager / Head Coach.
So, in my view, Big Sam needs us to succeed if he has any aspirations to continue in football at this level just as much as we need him. And if he is successful with us, I don't see any bigger clubs wanting to recruit him at his age.
Therefore, if he is successful with us, he will be here for a good few years to come in my view, meaning a "win win" for both parties.
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At the age of 66, I think his appointment as our Head Coach could be Big Sam's "Last Chance Saloon"
IMO he has to be successful at the Albion or else he will be bombed out of being a big time football Manager / Head Coach.
So, in my view, Big Sam needs us to succeed if he has any aspirations to continue in football at this level just as much as we need him. And if he is successful with us, I don't see any bigger clubs wanting to recruit him at his age.
Therefore, if he is successful with us, he will be here for a good few years to come in my view, meaning a "win win" for both parties.
I was going to post something similar about ‘last chance’ and this job being a risk for him. He’s obviously going to make good money, but most professionals want to do a good job and want to be held in esteem by their peers. I think the ‘never relegated’ tag will be something he doesn’t want to lose. If he does lose it, he’ll probably never be parachuted in to save the day again. He will want to do well, I don’t think there should be any doubt.
How and if he will do it and whether fans will be happy and accepting is another thiing.
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Every player Big Sam has signed during his management career
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sam-allardyce/spielertransfers/trainer/445/plus/0/galerie/0?station_id=120276
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I have been reading up on him in Wikipedia, and if that is correct he joined Bolton at the age of 15. So if indeed he spent his youth supporting Wolves and watching us occasionally, it could only have been for 2 or 3 years. I assume his parents didn't allow him to go unaccompanied to games as a primary school kid. 2 or 3 years is not very long in the context of a football fan. (How many years have most of us been on this forum?).
Comes back to my original point, that this being a Wolves fan thing has been overhyped by some of our fans.
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At least Big Sams second game isn’t against Liverpool!
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At the age of 66, I think his appointment as our Head Coach could be Big Sam's "Last Chance Saloon"
IMO he has to be successful at the Albion or else he will be bombed out of being a big time football Manager / Head Coach.
So, in my view, Big Sam needs us to succeed if he has any aspirations to continue in football at this level just as much as we need him. And if he is successful with us, I don't see any bigger clubs wanting to recruit him at his age.
Therefore, if he is successful with us, he will be here for a good few years to come in my view, meaning a "win win" for both parties.
He's already had his last chance saloon. He was pretty much retired until we stupidly waved a big bundle of cash in front of his nose. I'm almost certain no-one else will be that stupid once he leaves us and he will go back to being retired. Can't come soon enough for me.
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At least Big Sams second game isn’t against Liverpool!
Don't get that, it is actually against Liverpool who have gone 66 home league games without defeat over a 3 1/2 years. The last team to win there SAM ALLARDYCE's Crystal Palace. Come on Sam COYB
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Don't get that, it is actually against Liverpool who have gone 66 home league games without defeat over a 3 1/2 years. The last team to win there SAM ALLARDYCE's Crystal Palace. Come on Sam COYB
I think it was meant as irony, he knows we play Liverpool after the vile :)
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Don't get that, it is actually against Liverpool who have gone 66 home league games without defeat over a 3 1/2 years. The last team to win there SAM ALLARDYCE's Crystal Palace. Come on Sam COYB
I said it as a joke after I had just seen Liverpool put 7 past Palace who beat us 5-1...
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At least Big Sams second game isn’t against Liverpool!
Ive read the comments. I still don’t get it. Walk me me through it.
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Sam's 2nd game in charge is Liverpool mate
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Sam's 2nd game in charge is Liverpool mate
Still doesn’t make sense.
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Still doesn’t make sense.
He was joking after Liverpool demolished Palace 7-0 today I'd imagine
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Evening folks it has taken me a few hours to read through 4 weeks of posts but I've read every word. Really missed everyone on here.
I'd like to officially welcome Big Sam to the club and put on record that I feel we made a hugely positive step as both a Premier League club and towards survival in this league by our actions on 16th December 2020.
Allardyce is a vital Hodgson-esque appointment that should do for us what Roy did back in 2011, and just in the nick of time too.
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Allardyce had one transfer window at Everton his last job . In that window he made 3 signings , Tosun, Walcott and one other who played just twice , anybody want to hazard a guess ( no Googling ) !
Davy Klassen
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Mangala on loan from City who played twice (looked it up two days ago and even with the fading memory I managed to hang onto that nugget)
This is the same dead end appointment that Pulis was. Football is slightly better and where Allardyce does score over Bilic he does sit on one side of the low block/high press divide whereas Bilic didn't and that was in part his undoing.
Allardyce had more talent in that Everton squad than any he is ever likely to have here and he chose to play the usual reductive brand of dull as dishwater football. He didn't even save them from relegation in any meaningful way most of the heavy lifting on that score was done by David Unsworth who had guided Everton to 13th by the time Allardyce took over but never the less Allardyce picked up £2m for keeping them up plus the balance of his 18 month contract at the end of the season. Sound familiar?
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Proven track record but it's worth remembering a few things. He's been out of the game for a while now. While he's still clearly been watching games he's had little to no daily contact with the training ground environment that I'm aware of. Here's hoping he's up to speed.
Many refer to his use of analytics but his days on the cutting edge at Bolton were a long time ago now. Everyone uses them. It's how he interprets them and how adept our squad is at implementing them now that matters. Yesterday is just that.
And finally Sam understandably places high value on defending and attacking set pieces. Today will be the first time he'll have managed a team under the watching eye of VAR. This in itself could prove to be his kryptonite.
Anyway, sorry to see Slaven go but at least the new man was appointed swiftly. And welcome back Jacko. You'll have to drop me a PM one of the days to explain the crimes against humanity which led to your time in .com's naughty corner.
COYB and SOTV 8) .
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Sam Allardyce: New West Brom manager considered health risks of management return
Worth a watch and read
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55380704
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There's an article on The Athletic with some quotes from ex-players etc, but it outlined his "survival blueprint":
Keep clean sheets
Don’t lose possession in your own half
Play the first pass forward
Win knockdowns and transitions
Dominate set pieces at both ends of the pitch
Exploit the opposition’s weaknesses
Show quality in the final third
So I guess this is what we can expect from us.
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There's an article on The Athletic with some quotes from ex-players etc, but it outlined his "survival blueprint":
Keep clean sheets
Don’t lose possession in your own half
Play the first pass forward
Win knockdowns and transitions
Dominate set pieces at both ends of the pitch
Exploit the opposition’s weaknesses
Show quality in the final third
So I guess this is what we can expect from us.
Nothing wrong with any of that in theory!
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I don’t see Sawyers getting any game time I’m afraid. Desperate for him to do well as I love his style on the ball, but I just don’t see him playing because he is so weak off the ball.
Probably too early for major change but I suspect if we have a midfield three then from our current team it might be Livermore Gallagher and Field.
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I don’t see Sawyers getting any game time I’m afraid. Desperate for him to do well as I love his style on the ball, but I just don’t see him playing because he is so weak off the ball.
Probably too early for major change but I suspect if we have a midfield three then from our current team it might be Livermore Gallagher and Field.
Like you I like Sawyes, but he always appears to me to be flatfooted and slow to react to situations all over the pitch, but good on the ball
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Article on the Atheltic up today about what its like to play under Allardyce.
Says his 2 basic instructions are to score first and keep a clean sheet every game. Easier said than done obviously.
The article recalls statements from players of his.
Stephen Warnock at Blackburn said they all dreaded working under him, dreaded his long ball reputation etc, said how they all wanted to play nice football etc but after 1 meeting/tactical session they all turned round and said how impressive Allardyce had been. Showed them all clips of their silly goals and errors AND the pattern of play leading upto it and how to cut them out. It all suddenly made sense Warnock says. Then worked on shape in training and called out those who didnt folow their men defensively. Said his attention to detail was unbeatable. Won their first game under Sam against Stoke 3-0.
Allardyce says he has a survival blueprint which he talks about on Sky Sports:-
1) Keep clean sheets
2) Don’t lose possession in your own half
3) Play the first pass forward
4) Win knockdowns and transitions
5) Dominate set pieces at both ends of the pitch
6) Exploit the opposition’s weaknesses
7) Show quality in the final third
Joey O'Brien from Bolton says he does play long ball against those teams he feels at weak against it. He sets up the team to beat the oppositon based on their weaknesses.
Fancy players who don't do their part defensively will definitely feature less. Mirallas at Everton it mentions.
Like Sir Alex he won't be very hands on in training, will leave that to the coaching team of Sammy Lee, Stockdale and Mozza. Allardyce watches from the sidelines and speaks to the monitoring/analytical staff in the main. 2 days before matchday Allardyce then takes over and drills into the players over and over what he wants for the next game.
Patrick van Aanholt also says “Tactics-wise, he was one of the best managers of my career, He had a huge influence on me. He’s old-fashioned but it works. He’s always right. For example, if we didn’t play one game how he said we should play, he would come into the meeting and say, ‘I told you. If you don’t listen to me, you won’t win’. The next game, we listened and got the points."
Sounds promising. Needs a few games to get it all sticking obviously ( I know some of you won't give him past today regardless) but the futures looking brighter than remaining under Slav, for me anyways.
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I don’t see Sawyers getting any game time I’m afraid. Desperate for him to do well as I love his style on the ball, but I just don’t see him playing because he is so weak off the ball.
Probably too early for major change but I suspect if we have a midfield three then from our current team it might be Livermore Gallagher and Field.
I agree re Sawyers, in fact I don’t feel he’s a premier league player. Don’t see Field playing much either. He will want a nasty so and so in the engine room. Not sure any current player fits that bill.
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His blueprint just sounds exactly the same as Pulis.
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His blueprint just sounds exactly the same as Pulis.
Sounds like what we need. Get the basics down first.
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His blueprint just sounds exactly the same as Pulis.
Basically it is but with more attacking intent. He said the other day that we have to concede less and score more, so lets see how he sets the team up tonight.
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Basically it is but with more attacking intent. He said the other day that we have to concede less and score more, so lets see how he sets the team up tonight.
Genius idea.
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2) Don’t lose possession in your own half
3) Play the first pass forward
We have been doing the complete opposite of these for 12 months under Bilic, that’s been entertaining for some people though apparently.
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2) Don’t lose possession in your own half
3) Play the first pass forward
We have been doing the complete opposite of these for 12 months under Bilic, that’s been entertaining for some people though apparently.
I know, asbolutely mental mate. People wanted more of it too.
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His blueprint just sounds exactly the same as Pulis.
Your post looks like confirmation bias to me. I can’t imagine too many managers would disagree with that ‘blueprint’ yet your first port of call is a pulis comparison.
Timdon although sceptical and sarcastically, at least makes a fair point though that this is easier said than done.
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This is a work of pure genius
1) Keep clean sheets
2) Don’t lose possession in your own half
3) Play the first pass forward
4) Win knockdowns and transitions
5) Dominate set pieces at both ends of the pitch
6) Exploit the opposition’s weaknesses
7) Show quality in the final third
Most are declarative intentions which in and of themselves are totally devoid of any tactical meaning. Much like Pardew's "Playing on the Front Foot" which 2 years on from I'm still none the wiser.
Referencing Pulis is entirely legitimate because that is what it looks like.
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This is a work of pure genius
1) Keep clean sheets
2) Don’t lose possession in your own half
3) Play the first pass forward
4) Win knockdowns and transitions
5) Dominate set pieces at both ends of the pitch
6) Exploit the opposition’s weaknesses
7) Show quality in the final third
Most are declarative intentions which in and of themselves are totally devoid of any tactical meaning. Much like Pardew's "Playing on the Front Foot" which 2 years on from I'm still none the wiser.
Can't argue with many of these, but maybe telling that 'showing quality in the final third' is down as last. Its also the most difficult to put into effect.
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Similar to SGM’s philosophy really, oh and Roy
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Going forward we look so bad. Never seen a team break so slowly. Toothless performance that. But what can you expect after the red. Very worrying if thats the reaction to a new manager coming in...
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Going forward we look so bad. Never seen a team break so slowly. Toothless performance that. But what can you expect after the red. Very worrying if thats the reaction to a new manager coming in...
They do not WANT to play for him, they will have to be forced to make the best of a bad job. Just like the rest of us.
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Splitting the fan base already like Pulis did.
I was unsure at the appointment of Sam but was In agreement that Bilic has to go.
He must be regretting his decision to join now though I’d have thought.
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Splitting the fan base already like Pulis did.
I was unsure at the appointment of Sam but was In agreement that Bilic has to go.
He must be regretting his decision to join now though I’d have thought.
I don't think he will be. If we're still as poor in February then he might start regretting it.
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Hard to judge him too much on this one after yet another first half red card. Leeds, Arsenal, Blackpool and Wolves will be the run where we can start really understanding if he is going to get anything out of this team.
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Just the one shot on goal tonight which is pitiful, even with ten men for most of the game. Bilic should never have been sacked and appointing Alladyce to brownbeat a team that's wants to be progressive to play like dinosaurs is a disaster. Norwich went top of the championship this weekend. They have got it right. Stuck by Daniel Farke and will come back stronger. All we have done is to guarantee that the club will be in disarray in the summer, when Bilic should have been improving his squad and continuing to build on the foundations he had laid.
A mid table finish in the championship beckons next season, followed by years stagnating into just another pointless lower tier club. All the fans who shot their load, calling for the managers head when the team was never good enough for this level this year will deserve all they get.
The only thing I liked about Alladyce tonight was his honesty for calling out Jake Livermore for his stupidity in his post match interview.
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Just the one shot on goal tonight which is pitiful, even with ten men for most of the game. Bilic should never have been sacked and appointing Alladyce to brownbeat a team that's wants to be progressive to play like dinosaurs is a disaster. Norwich went top of the championship this weekend. They have got it right. Stuck by Daniel Farke and will come back stronger. All we have done is to guarantee that the club will be in disarray in the summer, when Bilic should have been improving his squad and continuing to build on the foundations he had laid.
A mid table finish in the championship beckons next season, followed by years stagnating into just another pointless lower tier club. All the fans who shot their load, calling for the managers head when the team was never good enough for this level this year will deserve all they get.
Bilic was never going to be offered a new contract anyway, even if he hadn't been fired he would never have signed a new contract either as his relationship with this board/owner was too broken.
Now is not the time to judge Allardyce, lets wait and see what business he can do in January to improve the first 11.
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After match comment from Allardyce:
"There were a couple of errors, we miscleared the first one and he tucked it away and the second one is the only way to stop Jack Grealish. He is an outstanding individual, one Aston Villa will be delighted to have. If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up."
So what he seems to be suggesting is that because we don't have a Jack Grealish, we won't stay up?
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After match comment from Allardyce:
"There were a couple of errors, we miscleared the first one and he tucked it away and the second one is the only way to stop Jack Grealish. He is an outstanding individual, one Aston Villa will be delighted to have. If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up."
So what he seems to be suggesting is that because we don't have a Jack Grealish, we won't stay up?
I think he's saying we don't have that one out and out match winner. Villa without Grealish are poor.
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Yeah from the Athletic article I think the relationship was toast, so sadly its fruitless comparing the current situation with one where Bilic manages us next season as it wasn’t going to happen in any scenario.
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Your post looks like confirmation bias to me. I can’t imagine too many managers would disagree with that ‘blueprint’ yet your first port of call is a pulis comparison.
Timdon although sceptical and sarcastically, at least makes a fair point though that this is easier said than done.
Nothing confirmation bias about it - if you asked Pulis what his philosophy is that would pretty much match exactly that line for line, and we hated Pulis' approach didn't we? Sam's approach is the same - anybody who thinks we'll be getting anything different is deluding themselves. Eevery job he's had since Bolton has involved fans protesting to get him out of the club due to his style of football.
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After match comment from Allardyce:
"There were a couple of errors, we miscleared the first one and he tucked it away and the second one is the only way to stop Jack Grealish. He is an outstanding individual, one Aston Villa will be delighted to have. If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up."
So what he seems to be suggesting is that because we don't have a Jack Grealish, we won't stay up?
or maybe he is saying we need a player like Grealish, a captain that leads by example, doesn't lose his head in big games, has a positive impact on his team. Sounds like he has a good idea of what we need to start improving.
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Nothing confirmation bias about it - if you asked Pulis what his philosophy is that would pretty much match exactly that line for line, and we hated Pulis' approach didn't we? Sam's approach is the same - anybody who thinks we'll be getting anything different is deluding themselves. Eevery job he's had since Bolton has involved fans protesting to get him out of the club due to his style of football.
Newcastle fans loathed him
Everton fans loathed him
Palace got rid at the first opportunity
Tonight's tactics seemed to be limited to having nine outfield players lined up around our box and to smash the ball into the channel for Grant to chase. Reminded me of Pulis and Rondon.
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Nothing confirmation bias about it - if you asked Pulis what his philosophy is that would pretty much match exactly that line for line, and we hated Pulis' approach didn't we? Sam's approach is the same - anybody who thinks we'll be getting anything different is deluding themselves. Eevery job he's had since Bolton has involved fans protesting to get him out of the club due to his style of football.
Completely agree. The game today is no friend of Allardyce's old fashioned methods
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West Ham fans were protesting when he had them 3rd in the Championship. It's not even the results - it's the brand of football he plays that is the issue. We'd better get used to it.
Still early to judge him - but this squad isn't set up to play hoof ball. We don't have any strikers who can hold the ball up - our midfield lacks pace. We're much better keeping it on the ground and trying to pass through teams. Can Sam adapt to that?
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West Ham fans were protesting when he had them 3rd in the Championship. It's not even the results - it's the brand of football he plays that is the issue. We'd better get used to it.
Still early to judge him - but this squad isn't set up to play hoof ball. We don't have any strikers who can hold the ball up - our midfield lacks pace. We're much better keeping it on the ground and trying to pass through teams. Can Sam adapt to that?
Exactly, as Bilic wanted to play football. Which is why it was madness to sack him and try a huge u-turn with this group of players. The boardroom deserve relegation and I'm certain it's arriving; sooner rather than later as well.
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I’ll give Allardyce 3 months before he resigns. He won’t want to be tarred with blemishing his record of no relegation from the top tier.
Our players look so slow and half arsed. They don’t even protest to the Ref about bad decisions, so weak.
Could be double figures at Anfield.
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I'd rather play winning football however its achieved
He was loved at Sunderland
Win at all costs not matter how disgustingly ugly the tactics are. We had that under Pulis which sucked the life out of our football club. Bilic gave us some happiness, this season we are going down, no matter what or who is in charge.
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I’ll give Allardyce 3 months before he resigns. He won’t want to be tarred with blemishing his record of no relegation from the top tier.
Our players look so slow and half arsed. They don’t even protest to the Ref about bad decisions, so weak.
Could be double figures at Anfield.
Agree with the players bit , should have been appealing the keeper handling out the area and Diang stamp loudly .
Weak minded .
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2020. The worst ever year for Albion ?
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I’ll give Allardyce 3 months before he resigns. He won’t want to be tarred with blemishing his record of no relegation from the top tier.
Our players look so slow and half arsed. They don’t even protest to the Ref about bad decisions, so weak.
Could be double figures at Anfield.
Very true, any slight discretion by us the opposition are up in arms. Anything against us our players just scratch their arses and chew gum.
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Listening to his post match interview l believe he is actually shocked at how bad a side he has inherited and that's solely down to a disinterested owner. Think he will be on blower in the morning for more funds in January and I can't see him taking any advice from Dowling when it comes to potential targets.
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2020. The worst ever year for Albion ?
I suspect we are about to completely self-destruct, similar to Derby in 2008. The end result being that Bilic's premiership record with this team looks half decent.
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I suspect we are about to completely self-destruct, similar to Derby in 2008. The end result being that Bilic's premiership record with this team looks half decent.
I think the opposite. In 5 weeks we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about and it'll be Slaven who.
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Just read Sams comments. Sounds like hes aiming to move the armband off Livermore permanently. Fantastic news. The only thing that keeps him in the team most the time.
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His words about Livermore are music to my ears. The man does not lead by example on the pitch and if Allardyce has said what he says he did to the players and Livermore goes in like that then you’d expect Allardyce to come down on him like a ton of bricks. Who will step up!?
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His words about Livermore are music to my ears. The man does not lead by example on the pitch and if Allardyce has said what he says he did to the players and Livermore goes in like that then you’d expect Allardyce to come down on him like a ton of bricks. Who will step up!?
Agreed. Refreshing to read those comments on Jake and the future captaincy.
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His words about Livermore are music to my ears. The man does not lead by example on the pitch and if Allardyce has said what he says he did to the players and Livermore goes in like that then you’d expect Allardyce to come down on him like a ton of bricks. Who will step up!?
Yep love the fact in his interview thefirst thing he said at his first session was no more sendings off. We have a record for them and we can't afford it. 30 mins in, step forward Hot-head Livermore.
I think Sam will confine him to the bench now.
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From the OS Allardyce says :-
“We need to know how to fight and have a fighting spirit to get out of this position.
"We cannot play our way out of this.
“We are a team that are going to have to battle our way out.
"We can’t play our way out because unfortunately at the moment we haven’t got the confidence or maybe in the long run after assessment, we haven't got the abilities to play our way out.
“We may need a more battling approach playing a particular style of football to get the points we need to get out of trouble.â€
Sounds like changes are a coming and with Livermore getting binned off i have hope.
Liverpools a write-off and i'd take a draw against Leeds now realistically and then Jan Window is open and make some changes.
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Yep love the fact in his interview thefirst thing he said at his first session was no more sendings off. We have a record for them and we can't afford it. 30 mins in, step forward Hot-head Livermore.
I think Sam will confine him to the bench now.
Not for the next (3?) games hopefully. Would be a bit of a waste of a bench place.
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I think the opposite. In 5 weeks we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about and it'll be Slaven who.
Head in the clouds. What the hell can SA do with this shower? The players are woeful. They don't even bother to contest decisions with the Ref.
1 shot / 35% possession at Home in a Derby.
Under Slaven there was at least a capability of being able to pass the ball, possession stats were high, we are -6 pts on VAR. Bilic was doing a good job with the resources available.
Liverpool must be licking their lips for the next match.
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Not for the next (3?) games hopefully. Would be a bit of a waste of a bench place.
Jake will be out partying methinks over the festive season.
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From the OS Allardyce says :-
“We need to know how to fight and have a fighting spirit to get out of this position.
"We cannot play our way out of this.
“We are a team that are going to have to battle our way out.
"We can’t play our way out because unfortunately at the moment we haven’t got the confidence or maybe in the long run after assessment, we haven't got the abilities to play our way out.
“We may need a more battling approach playing a particular style of football to get the points we need to get out of trouble.â€
Sounds like changes are a coming and with Livermore getting binned off i have hope.
Liverpools a write-off and i'd take a draw against Leeds now realistically and then Jan Window is open and make some changes.
Buckle up lads, sounds like we're in for some exciting football! I know we were all just saying how we were really missing the Pulis days.
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Jake will be out partying methinks over the festive season.
Hope he doesn't try to nick a taxi...
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Hope he doesn't try to nick a taxi...
I'm sure hes learnt his lesson :-X
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I like what Sam has said tonight
He isnt going to take any poo
The players have had it too comfortable for too long
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I like what Sam has said tonight
He isnt going to take any poo
The players have had it too comfortable for too long
1000000% this. Clearly too nice in the dressing room and on the pitch.
Laidback and chilled or lazy and half-arsed are words that can be used to describe us depending on your viewpoint.
You have to earn the right to play tippy tappy football. You have to stand up and meet the opposition in terms of work rate and desire. It's all cliched stuff because it's true. We can't play competitve games like they are training sessions. No more hiding away, we need people who are going to take the game by the scruff of the neck before we can think about passing triangles going nowhere.
He needs to give them the facts which it sounds like is happening anyway. Half of them are going in the summer anyway hopefully so get rid of what we can now if possible and get some players in who give a damn.
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1000000% this. Clearly too nice in the dressing room and on the pitch.
Laidback and chilled or lazy and half-arsed are words that can be used to describe us depending on your viewpoint.
You have to earn the right to play tippy tappy football. You have to stand up and meet the opposition in terms of work rate and desire. It's all cliched stuff because it's true. We can't play competitve games like they are training sessions. No more hiding away, we need people who are going to take the game by the scruff of the neck before we can think about passing triangles going nowhere.
He needs to give them the facts which it sounds like is happening anyway. Half of them are going in the summer anyway hopefully so get rid of what we can now if possible and get some players in who give a damn.
Bang on. No one works harder in this division than Liverpool.
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All the top top teams do it Jacko. Off the ball Liverpool, Man City etc ALL close like men possessed. They fight for everything, even the flashier players. No one stands off. They are into you even if they are not good defensively. Their work rate is insanely high.
We cant match these clubs for ability but we should be matching them for fitness or at least not blowing out our arses every week after 30 minutes.
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I won’t be writing him off after 72 hours..
Just a shame that so many are going to set in their trenches..
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Buckle up lads, sounds like we're in for some exciting football! I know we were all just saying how we were really missing the Pulis days.
Remind me - what has been at all exciting this season?
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I won’t be writing him off after 72 hours..
Just a shame that so many are going to set in their trenches..
Even Pardew was given a chance.
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Even Pardew was given a chance.
Allardyce won’t even get that..
Two training sessions and he’s been hung drawn and quartered because he hasn’t turned us round..
It’s a shame those so vehemently opposed to him cannot turn their attentions to captain fantastico who disgraced this football club tonight. He’s the one who deserves a public kicking.
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Head in the clouds. What the hell can SA do with this shower? The players are woeful. They don't even bother to contest decisions with the Ref.
1 shot / 35% possession at Home in a Derby.
Under Slaven there was at least a capability of being able to pass the ball, possession stats were high, we are -6 pts on VAR. Bilic was doing a good job with the resources available.
Liverpool must be licking their lips for the next match.
I'd appreciate it if you cut out the head in the clouds type comments, I'm avoiding conflict on the site going forward.
What he can do is root out the bad apples. I believe he will sideline Livermore and Furlong for the foreseeable after just this one game. He can get us organised at the back. He can drill pattern of play into them a la Hodgson.
Plenty of poor teams overachieve with good coaching and management. Allardyce has made a career out of it.
Bilić is gone. Possession football wasn't working as our league high goals against will attest.
Liverpool relish every game. They will remain very slightly wary of us though. Afterall we've beaten them at Anfield during that long unbeaten run. ;)
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I love this board and the people on it including those i disagree on the regular with but our fans are a weird bunch. I think its the knock on effects of Jeremy Peace manipulation/reign. I've never met supporters from any other club who want their club to fail as much as ours just so they can see tippy tappy triangle, nothing football.
Mention changing squad and tactics getting results etc and it's like you've fiddled kids. Baffled.
Let's all support the club AND Sam whilst he's here.
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I'd appreciate it if you cut out the head in the clouds type comments, I'm avoiding conflict on the site going forward.
What he can do is root out the bad apples. I believe he will sideline Livermore and Furlong for the foreseeable after just this one game. He can get us organised at the back. He can drill pattern of play into them a la Hodgson.
Plenty of poor teams overachieve with good coaching and management. Allardyce has made a career out of it.
Bilić is gone. Possession football wasn't working as our league high goals against will attest.
Liverpool relish every game. They will remain very slightly wary of us though. Afterall we've beaten them at Anfield during that long unbeaten run. ;)
Sideline Furlong, for what? Scored a great goal v Newcastle. 2.men just watched as their winger floated a ball across.
Under Allardyce we willl just give away possession and play like a Pulis team.
I hope he is not daft enough to leave out Pereira. We haven't got the players and they are Slaven's players.
We need 2 World class midfielders to play with Gallagher to even stand half a chance. Because midfield is costing us big time.
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Unfortunately, Furlong is not consistent enough but at least shows effort, we’ll, most of the time. The players that need moving out, in my opinion are Gibbs, Livermore, Sawyers, Diangana and Phillips. Also, Grant and Robinson are probably only good enough for the Championship, as is Bartley, at best. Will our enthusiastic owner splash out some of his millions to replace that lot? Not a chance.
FOL
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Sideline Furlong, for what? Scored a great goal v Newcastle. 2.men just watched as their winger floated a ball across.
Under Allardyce we willl just give away possession and play like a Pulis team.
I hope he is not daft enough to leave out Pereira. We haven't got the players and they are Slaven's players.
We need 2 World class midfielders to play with Gallagher to even stand half a chance. Because midfield is costing us big time.
He will sideline Furlong if he cannot deal with basic crosses coming into the box.
He was day-dreaming. Ball watching. Allardyce will not accept that.
Before long O’Shea will be at right back with a new centre half coming into the club - with Ivanovic likely in the short term.
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Wonder if Ivanovich will have enough and retire rather than be relegated.
He's got to be on 40-50k per week. I'd rather have the money back.
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Wonder if Ivanovich will have enough and retire rather than be relegated.
He's got to be on 40-50k per week. I'd rather have the money back.
I think he will start next match with oshea back at RB
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I think he will start next match with oshea back at RB
YEs sorry i mean in Jan, Sam will bring a CB in for sure.
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YEs sorry i mean in Jan, Sam will bring a CB in for sure.
Agreed
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Unfortunately, Furlong is not consistent enough but at least shows effort, we’ll, most of the time. The players that need moving out, in my opinion are Gibbs, Livermore, Sawyers, Diangana and Phillips. Also, Grant and Robinson are probably only good enough for the Championship, as is Bartley, at best. Will our enthusiastic owner splash out some of his millions to replace that lot? Not a chance.
FOL
How remiss of me, I omitted Peltier and HRK from the list. Ivanovich is too old.
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I dont think i've ever been this keen to see so many players leave in Jan, i'm hoping we can shift a few at least. It's crucial.
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he could hardly come in and drop players after a fighting performance against Man City but after the display against the Villa and a week of training I expect a vast difference next week but we may not notice because it is likely that Liverpool will just over power us what ever team he puts out.
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He will sideline Furlong if he cannot deal with basic crosses coming into the box.
He was day-dreaming. Ball watching. Allardyce will not accept that.
Before long O’Shea will be at right back with a new centre half coming into the club - with Ivanovic likely in the short term.
Who was marking their right winger, 2 players ball watching on the 1st goal while he swung in a cross at his leisure. If you sideline Furlong, it was their fault also.
We don't need a centre half. We need mobile midfielders who can do all facets of the game, run, tackle, pass, mark etc. You know all the things that Livermore and Sawyers don't do.
The defence was heroic v Man City, 10/10, superb. Its the lack of pressure on the ball and closing down that's costing us. AV wiped the floor with us in midfield.
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I'm willing to give Allardyce but it's some job trying to keep that current team up.
He needs to full backs, a centre half, two midfielders and a striker to even make us competitive.
We can only hope that he learns a few things from that performance. Most important being Gibbs, Furlong, Livermore and Grant should be nowhere near a PL team. Bilic deserves the sack for chasing Grant for so long, one of the worst I've seen up there in a long time.
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Hopefully the rumours about Allardyce targeting Phil Jones are untrue. Another slow cart horse.
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Hopefully the rumours about Allardyce targeting Phil Jones are untrue. Another slow cart horse.
The bar is so low he would improve our team.
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Who was marking their right winger, 2 players ball watching on the 1st goal while he swung in a cross at his leisure. If you sideline Furlong, it was their fault also.
We don't need a centre half. We need mobile midfielders who can do all facets of the game, run, tackle, pass, mark etc. You know all the things that Livermore and Sawyers don't do.
The defence was heroic v Man City, 10/10, superb. Its the lack of pressure on the ball and closing down that's costing us. AV wiped the floor with us in midfield.
And Gibbs is equally culpable for failing to block the cross but luckily for him there are currently no available options to take his place..
I have no doubts that we need a central midfielder, but it is clear we also need a centre half. That should have been a priority in the summer.
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And Gibbs is equally culpable for failing to block the cross but luckily for him there are currently no available options to take his place..
I have no doubts that we need a central midfielder, but it is clear we also need a centre half. That should have been a priority in the summer.
We bought a 36 centre half for free, he's proved to be inadequate. The much maligned Bartley had fought bravely but is not good enough either. Unless it's a world class centre back, don't bother. We might as well nurture a kid (O'Shea) who will be good enough in the Championship. Ajayi is an automatic pick.
The absolute priority is centre midfield. Are people aware of how bad Livermore and Sawyers are?
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Yes and that drum has been repeatedly beaten all season.
The failure to sign a defensive midfielder was a mistake - why Bilic gave priority to a weak fancy footballer is beyond me.
The midfield is dysfunctional and it will not suit Allardyce. I’m not sure there are easy fixes out there who can improve that area given what little money we have available.
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I wouldn't use that as a stick to beat Slaven with. His funds were very limited and he used the money as best as he could, it simply wasn't a big enough outlay.
Under Bilic we kept the ball well enough whereby our possession was hovering close to the 50% mark, impressive with Sawyers and Livermore.
Last night was alarming, only 35% and 1 shot. I'll give SA a bit of slack as we had 10 men, but the writing was on the wall, Villa were dictating before Livermore's red.
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Yes and that drum has been repeatedly beaten all season.
The failure to sign a defensive midfielder was a mistake - why Bilic gave priority to a weak fancy footballer is beyond me.
The midfield is dysfunctional and it will not suit Allardyce. I’m not sure there are easy fixes out there who can improve that area given what little money we have available.
Firmly believe Allardyce wouldn't have taken the job without a decent amount of money to use , don't get me started on Bilic's blindness to the midfield issues.
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Just read Sams comments. Sounds like hes aiming to move the armband off Livermore permanently. Fantastic news. The only thing that keeps him in the team most the time.
Absolutely, the only time you notice him is when he’s giving the ball away or collecting cards.
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I wouldn't use that as a stick to beat Slaven with. His funds were very limited and he used the money as best as he could, it simply wasn't a big enough outlay.
Under Bilic we kept the ball well enough whereby our possession was hovering close to the 50% mark, impressive with Sawyers and Livermore.
Last night was alarming, only 35% and 1 shot. I'll give SA a bit of slack as we had 10 men, but the writing was on the wall, Villa were dictating before Livermore's red.
Sorry but that ones on Bilic , screamed until he got Krov in who others nothing Pereira / Gallagher / even Sawyers don't . I'd imagine as its 2nd time around we paid a loan fee or most of his wages , utter madness when he couldn't hold a place down last season and as you say Livermore/Sawyers stood out like a sore thumb as a issue . Madness.
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I wouldn't use that as a stick to beat Slaven with. His funds were very limited and he used the money as best as he could, it simply wasn't a big enough outlay.
Under Bilic we kept the ball well enough whereby our possession was hovering close to the 50% mark, impressive with Sawyers and Livermore.
Last night was alarming, only 35% and 1 shot. I'll give SA a bit of slack as we had 10 men, but the writing was on the wall, Villa were dictating before Livermore's red.
The Villa have spent over £200m since promotion, they should be dictating, we are a side full of Championship players, and average Championship players at that in the likes of Furlong, Sawyers, Livermore, Phillips, Grant and Robinson.
The start of the game looked like what it was, a team put together on a shoe string vs a team funded by billionaire owners happy to put their hands into their pockets. Money talks.
Sam has had two days with this side, he is hardly going to work the oracle overnight, it will be a while before we see his ideas being implemented but some of the comments in here are laughable, it is as if we were playing like Brazil all season before Slav went. Wise up chaps, it was awful before last night and we were lucky to have won the one game we did win.
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I wouldn't use that as a stick to beat Slaven with. His funds were very limited and he used the money as best as he could, it simply wasn't a big enough outlay.
Under Bilic we kept the ball well enough whereby our possession was hovering close to the 50% mark, impressive with Sawyers and Livermore.
Last night was alarming, only 35% and 1 shot. I'll give SA a bit of slack as we had 10 men, but the writing was on the wall, Villa were dictating before Livermore's red.
He did indeed have limited funds but as to whether he used the money as best he could I'm not so sure. He was hell bent on getting the players he had last season but then changed the formation to one which doesn't suit those players (Diangana and Pereira especially). If he was determined to change the formation why not get players in that can play that way? Also did we really need Krovinovic when a Dm was needed much more?
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Agree with some previous comments. Bilic did not have the required money, but conversely he still preferred non defensive midfielders in front of the defense. These guys are not Modric, they just can't do it!
I think Allardyce reacted to the performance correctly. He took responsibility for the sending off (saying it was on his watch and that he had told the players at the very least to avoid reckless challenges). They did not listen and he sounded correctly annoyed and determined to ensure it never happens again. Bye Bye Jake.
I really don't think Allardyce can be heavily criticized after one game.
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Sorry but that ones on Bilic , screamed until he got Krov in who others nothing Pereira / Gallagher / even Sawyers don't . I'd imagine as its 2nd time around we paid a loan fee or most of his wages , utter madness when he couldn't hold a place down last season and as you say Livermore/Sawyers stood out like a sore thumb as a issue . Madness.
So you are criticising Slaven Bilic for a net spend of what was it £30m / £35m? Its chicken feed. Dean Smith £140m to scrape 17th last season and their best players are the ones that cost nothing (Barkley & Grealish).
Point is we should've been out of the relegation zone at the time SB was sacked, with the injustice of VAR. Were you expecting miracles?
The best thing Allardyce can do is find the next Jay Jay Okocha, link him with Pereira, play passing football, then I'll be right behind him.
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So you are criticising Slaven Bilic for a net spend of what was it £30m / £35m? Its chicken feed. Dean Smith £140m to scrape 17th last season and their best players are the ones that cost nothing (Barkley & Grealish).
Point is we should've been out of the relegation zone at the time SB was sacked, with the injustice of VAR. Were you expecting miracles?
The best thing Allardyce can do is find the next Jay Jay Okocha, link him with Pereira, play passing football, then I'll be right behind him.
no one is denying that Bilic had very limited funds what you don't seem to see is that he didn't spend the money available in the smartest way, he bought players that don't suit the formation he then chose to play.
Pretty sure Barkley will have cost a loan fee and wages, so not 'nothing'.
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I love this board and the people on it including those i disagree on the regular with but our fans are a weird bunch. I think its the knock on effects of Jeremy Peace manipulation/reign. I've never met supporters from any other club who want their club to fail as much as ours just so they can see tippy tappy triangle, nothing football.
Mention changing squad and tactics getting results etc and it's like you've fiddled kids. Baffled.
Let's all support the club AND Sam whilst he's here.
Just like you did the previous manager ?!! Thats weird !
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Agree with some previous comments. Bilic did not have the required money, but conversely he still preferred non defensive midfielders in front of the defense. These guys are not Modric, they just can't do it!
I think Allardyce reacted to the performance correctly. He took responsibility for the sending off (saying it was on his watch and that he had told the players at the very least to avoid reckless challenges). They did not listen and he sounded correctly annoyed and determined to ensure it never happens again. Bye Bye Jake.
I really don't think Allardyce can be heavily criticized after one game.
sensible post mate we have been crying out for defensive midfielder for most of Slaven's tenure and nothing materialised, not blaming Bilic who clearly had other positions to priorities. Budget or lack of one is a major problem but also player recruitment has to be spot on if funds are tight. Dowling failed to help coach in that department and failed club in not identifying areas on pitch that needed strengthing. We are not a well run club we jump from crisis to crisis and have so since and probably before I've been watching the Albion and will in the future.
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The issue for me is this, Bilic built a physically weak team based on possession rather than hard work. This worked, to a point, in the Championship but was drastically poor in the Prem. Sam will have to turn this on it's head to build a team that suits his style but, by then, it will be too late and we will be relegated and therefore go into the Championship with a team built around defence and drill. If Sam then parts company and we try another younger more dynamic coach, he will again have a team that doesn't suit and we'll be starting all over again.
It's mad to keep dramatically changing the style, as we don't have the funds for widespread changes, therefore end up with square pegs in round holes.
I have no desire to stay in this league, under the current regime, as the odds are stacked too highly against us. We should have took the money, accepted relegation (which is inevitable anyway it seems) and built something longer term.
Not saying we should have kept Bilic but we may as well have tried someone who's style would have matched the players we have.
I feel for Allardyce as he must have looked at that shower last night and thought, there's not one of them who I would pick given a blank sheet.
We are like a hamster on a wheel who falls off and, when he gets back on, it's going the other way!
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Reminds me of the Mowbray era in many ways plenty of “artists†not enough “soldiersâ€. That got sorted out with Yacob and co.
A team built properly with balance will do better in my view to get promoted again.
“Build from the back†is as true now as it ever was.
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Remind me - what has been at all exciting this season?
We've had bit of trying to play football - it may not have worked results wise but it's certainly better than setting up for a 0-0 at home against your local rivals in a match that we needed points in. Sam has been quite vocal in what his approach will be - that defence will not hold out for 80 mins and then we nick a 1-0.
Just a shame it seems some of us have short memories of how painful the football was under Pulis - and at least then we had some players capable of playing that way.
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We were incredibly poor last night and offered no threat whatsoever, however, much as I don’t like Big Sam, I don’t blame him for last night. The final score line probably reflected the game. His subs did change things negatively, but in some ways I agreed with what he did. He changed the formation to try and nick something and the gamble backfired, but at least he tried it. I am unconvinced by his appointment but I will cut him some slack and would love him to prove me wrong in initially not wanting him.
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sensible post mate we have been crying out for defensive midfielder for most of Slaven's tenure and nothing materialised, not blaming Bilic who clearly had other positions to priorities. Budget or lack of one is a major problem but also player recruitment has to be spot on if funds are tight. Dowling failed to help coach in that department and failed club in not identifying areas on pitch that needed strengthing. We are not a well run club we jump from crisis to crisis and have so since and probably before I've been watching the Albion and will in the future.
Allardyce will be demanding, and I mean demanding at minimum a big man up top, a holding/defensive midfielder and a defensively solid right back. It's realistic as they don't have to be top quality players, at the moment there is nobody in the squad that can do these roles at all. I would also expect him to be thumbing his little black loans book for another CB.
Last night he must have marked the cards of Sawyers, Livermore, Furlong (as much as I like him he was exposed for the goal last night) and although Phillips played ok he cant seem to run more than 30 yards without getting all out of puff, which is pointless if we set up to counter attack.
Without those additions his appointment was utterly pointless. Up top, well if he can build a solid foundation (god knows how, but if...) then combinations of Grady, Grant, Perreira, Robinson and maybe even Edwards just need to be told to get on their bike and play without fear. The amount of times that Grady beat his man first time but then bottled it and cut back was sad to see - his confidence shot because he has realised most PL defenders can match him for pace. Good coaching can help him understand what he needs to do for success at this level. Lets hope Allardyce's team are up to it as he is talented but last night looked like a player plucked from the under 15's.
We all knew what the weakness's in the squad were and they have come home to roost. The owners had lost faith in Slav's ability to both create a wining team but also on transfers which in the first year with the likes of Grady and Perreira was a shining light. Allardyce will not be given money to buy players but they will release money to fund wages on his choices rather than Dowling's. It's going to be interesting what he can find.
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no one is denying that Bilic had very limited funds what you don't seem to see is that he didn't spend the money available in the smartest way, he bought players that don't suit the formation he then chose to play.
Pretty sure Barkley will have cost a loan fee and wages, so not 'nothing'.
£35m is not a Premier League budget is it? And you expect us to avoid the bottom 3,its laughable. I'll remind you Bilic acquired Pereira for 9.5m which is a snip.
So Allardyce is renowned for clean sheets and producing dire football to nick results. He has to do this WITHIN THE NEXT Month otherwise we could be down anyway and the transfer budget affected.
The first requirement is to play Field with Gallagher, Pereira further forward, drop Grant for Robinson. Basically improve the energy and pace in the team.
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£35m is not a Premier League budget is it? And you expect us to avoid the bottom 3,its laughable. I'll remind you Bilic acquired Pereira for 9.5m which is a snip.
So Allardyce is renowned for clean sheets and producing dire football to nick results. He has to do this WITHIN THE NEXT Month otherwise we could be down anyway and the transfer budget affected.
The first requirement is to play Field with Gallagher, Pereira further forward, drop Grant for Robinson. Basically improve the energy and pace in the team.
I said that whilst Bilic had limited funds he didn't spend them wisely. Yes he got Periera in for 9.5M but he then chose to play him predominantly in a position that didn't suit him.
What you suggest as first requirements are things that Bilic should have done but didn't.
We need to be tighter at the back and we need to play in a different way to have any chance of staying in this league (and then the owner being able to sell up).
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So you are criticising Slaven Bilic for a net spend of what was it £30m / £35m? Its chicken feed. Dean Smith £140m to scrape 17th last season and their best players are the ones that cost nothing (Barkley & Grealish).
Point is we should've been out of the relegation zone at the time SB was sacked, with the injustice of VAR. Were you expecting miracles?
The best thing Allardyce can do is find the next Jay Jay Okocha, link him with Pereira, play passing football, then I'll be right behind him.
Where did i say that ? , we all knew it would be limited funds . We all knew he'd need a defensive midfielder , Bilic chose to waste a decent wage on somebody who is neither defensive or particulary good enough attacking .
Simply that wage was needed elsewhere not on a squad filler , thats the point I and a few others have made.
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I said that whilst Bilic had limited funds he didn't spend them wisely. Yes he got Periera in for 9.5M but he then chose to play him predominantly in a position that didn't suit him.
What you suggest as first requirements are things that Bilic should have done but didn't.
We need to be tighter at the back and we need to play in a different way to have any chance of staying in this league (and then the owner being able to sell up).
Some points, Field has been injured for several weeks. The only other option to try was Harper and he is as lazy as Sawyers.
Pereira is affected by a distinct lack of quality around him.
We need to be tighter in the midfield and control games more. The back 4 are the best options currently but we still have Townshend, Ivanovic, Bartley as back up. Unless we can sign a world class centre half there is no point.
Play in a different way like what? Long ball with Pereira watching the ball sail over his head?
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Where did i say that ? , we all knew it would be limited funds . We all knew he'd need a defensive midfielder , Bilic chose to waste a decent wage on somebody who is neither defensive or particulary good enough attacking .
Simply that wage was needed elsewhere not on a squad filler , thats the point I and a few others have made.
Why not credit Bilic with signing the excellent Gallagher?
I honestly don't know what you expect for £35m outlay, talk about unrealistic.
Satisfied with last night's showing?
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Cards on the table. Not a huge fan of Sam (although he does have a decent record with teams our size) and liked Bilic but Sam has been here for 3 days!!
Our best performance of season was City away which was backs to the wall. I liked Slav and thought we would be more attacking in the prem and try and take the game to teams but this season has hardly been glorious or swashbuckling under Slav. We have had a few spells Chelsea, Brighton, Everton but no game have we been great. Also I think the squad loved Blilc but the love of the Manager is one the great false narratives in football. We have had previous managers who people loved but the results were rubbish. We have had managers who the players didn’t necessarily like but their methods got results. By February we will know where we are.
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I said that whilst Bilic had limited funds he didn't spend them wisely.
Complete rubbish. If all the players Bilić signed were sold we would have more money than he spent. You may not have picked this up but Bilić was reluctant to spend most of his miserly budget on Diangana, he thought he could get him on loan later on in the window and wanted to spread the cash around. Steve Madely had a detailed article in the Athletic last week. It was Dowling and the board that pushed the transfer through on the basis it would be a good long term investment. What really goads me about your statement is how unfair it is to expect every transfer to work and to work instantly. Overall Bilić recruitment was impressive. All signings are a risk. Alex Ferguson made plenty of mistakes. It’s easy to beat the manager if your holding him out to an impossible standard. He worked a miracle to rebuild that squad and engineer promotion last season, when he was given peanuts.
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Some points, Field has been injured for several weeks. The only other option to try was Harper and he is as lazy as Sawyers.
Pereira is affected by a distinct lack of quality around him.
We need to be tighter in the midfield and control games more. The back 4 are the best options currently but we still have Townshend, Ivanovic, Bartley as back up. Unless we can sign a world class centre half there is no point.
Play in a different way like what? Long ball with Pereira watching the ball sail over his head?
Playing in a different way such as being tighter at the back (as I've said about 3 times), using players in the positions they are best suited to.
We need a proper Dm and a proper centre forward that can hold up the ball and bring in players like Grant, Robinson, Diangana.
With a proper Dm we can then play through midfield with Gallagher being box to box and Periera being the 10.
If the balls are sailing over Pereiras head them maybe the centre forward we need can then hold up play long enough for Pereira to join in?
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Complete rubbish. If all the players Bilić signed were sold we would have more money than he spent. You may not have picked this up but Bilić was reluctant to spend most of his miserly budget on Diangana, he thought he could get him on loan later on in the window and wanted to spread the cash around. Steve Madely had a detailed article in the Athletic last week. It was Dowling and the board that pushed the transfer through on the basis it would be a good long term investment. What really goads me about your statement is how unfair it is to expect every transfer to work and to work instantly. Overall Bilić recruitment was impressive. All signings are a risk. Alex Ferguson made plenty of mistakes. It’s easy to beat the manager if your holding him out to an impossible standard. He worked a miracle to rebuild that squad and engineer promotion last season, when he was given peanuts.
Not complete rubbish at all. I wasn't talking about the amount of money spent but how having brought players in he didn't play a formation that suited them.
I don't expect every transfer to work out and never said I did but I would expect the manager to play a formation that at least played to players strengths.
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Allardyce has spoken a number of times about how, at Palace, it was the January strengthening of the side with Milovojevic and Sakho that made all the difference for him.
I do not think for a second that he will not be looking to bring a DM and another centre back in during the window.
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Not complete rubbish at all. I wasn't talking about the amount of money spent but how having brought players in he didn't play a formation that suited them.
I don't expect every transfer to work out and never said I did but I would expect the manager to play a formation that at least played to players strengths.
The reason Bilic kept changing the formation and shape was because we weren’t picking up results and to combat the opposition. Ultimately the team just isn’t close to being good enough. No matter what formation or team we are yet to lay a glove on the league.
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Allardyce has spoken a number of times about how, at Palace, it was the January strengthening of the side with Milovojevic and Sakho that made all the difference for him.
I do not think for a second that he will not be looking to bring a DM and another centre back in during the window.
Good luck with that given the likelihood of:
1) No budget
2) Team cut adrift in the relegation zone
At least Palace had the London pull.
Why would any half decent player want to sign for Albion and Alladyce in January?
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What exactly is this different way to play under SA which guarantees more points?
I'm really interested to learn this from the guys that wanted Bilic dismissed.
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The reason Bilic kept changing the formation and shape was because we weren’t picking up results and to combat the opposition. Ultimately the team just isn’t close to being good enough. No matter what formation or team we are yet to lay a glove on the league.
Funny that, because it seemed like he a) had no idea of his best team AND b) no idea of the best system to play AND c) no idea what he was doing.
Aside from that, plus only scoring around half a goal a game and conceding a league high amount it was going swimmingly I thought.
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Complete rubbish. If all the players Bilić signed were sold we would have more money than he spent. You may not have picked this up but Bilić was reluctant to spend most of his miserly budget on Diangana, he thought he could get him on loan later on in the window and wanted to spread the cash around. Steve Madely had a detailed article in the Athletic last week. It was Dowling and the board that pushed the transfer through on the basis it would be a good long term investment. What really goads me about your statement is how unfair it is to expect every transfer to work and to work instantly. Overall Bilić recruitment was impressive. All signings are a risk. Alex Ferguson made plenty of mistakes. It’s easy to beat the manager if your holding him out to an impossible standard. He worked a miracle to rebuild that squad and engineer promotion last season, when he was given peanuts.
He didn't work a miracle last year, we had one of the strongest squads, wage bills and still had parachute payments. Us getting promoted was about as miraculous as Liverpool's multi-million pound squad winning the greed league. Unexpected, maybe, miracle, certainly not!
What he did do was enforce that advantage in regards maximising our superior players, which just about got us over the line, despite being weak defensively.
What he didn't do was adapt to life in the greed league and failed to address the flaws in his squad and his approach, hence we are left with a squad that has no ability to play on the back foot, but is not good enough to play on the front.
Of course the useless recruitment team and board are culpable but Bilic was in charge of team affairs and got it spectacularly wrong. If you don't accept that, and purely blame Dowling and Lai, then you cannot blame Allardyce, going forward, as, if it wasn't Bilic's fault, it can't be his either.
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What exactly is this different way to play under SA which guarantees more points?
I'm really interested to learn this from the guys that wanted Bilic dismissed.
I don't think anyone has said that playing in a different way guarantees us more points, it's more that being more defensively solid will give us more of a chance to stay up that being defensively poor (which Man City apart, we have been)
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Bilic's biggest mistake was putting his faith in majority of squad that got him promoted. As an experienced coach i thought that this was a bit naive of him and that was one of the factors that got him the sack.
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I don't think anyone has said that playing in a different way guarantees us more points, it's more that being more defensively solid will give us more of a chance to stay up that being defensively poor (which Man City apart, we have been)
More defensively solid, lol. Well we got off to a flier last night. With Liverpool A next we may reach double figures in the goals against column 2 games in.
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Why not credit Bilic with signing the excellent Gallagher?
I honestly don't know what you expect for £35m outlay, talk about unrealistic.
Satisfied with last night's showing?
1. I have which frustrates me more because clear as day a DM would be ideal with CG and even you could see Livermore/ Sawyers wouldnt be good enough.
2. Answer your own question again , you only have 35m then you dont waste a loan especially when you had that player last season. I wouldnt be surprised if Sam cancelled it.
3. Why the child like question ? , whipped by them down the road. Don't need to say anymore .
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Complete rubbish. If all the players Bilić signed were sold we would have more money than he spent. You may not have picked this up but Bilić was reluctant to spend most of his miserly budget on Diangana, he thought he could get him on loan later on in the window and wanted to spread the cash around. Steve Madely had a detailed article in the Athletic last week. It was Dowling and the board that pushed the transfer through on the basis it would be a good long term investment. What really goads me about your statement is how unfair it is to expect every transfer to work and to work instantly. Overall Bilić recruitment was impressive. All signings are a risk. Alex Ferguson made plenty of mistakes. It’s easy to beat the manager if your holding him out to an impossible standard. He worked a miracle to rebuild that squad and engineer promotion last season, when he was given peanuts.
Can we cut the complete rubbish comments out please? Thats aimed at all members not just you.
How about we allow others an opinion without them being shot down with petty comments like that?
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Why would any half decent player want to sign for Albion and Alladyce in January?
How about £40k a week?
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So you are criticising Slaven Bilic for a net spend of what was it £30m / £35m? Its chicken feed. Dean Smith £140m to scrape 17th last season and their best players are the ones that cost nothing (Barkley & Grealish).
Barkley was 11m for the season according to multiple sources he definitely wasn't free mate.
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We've had bit of trying to play football - it may not have worked results wise but it's certainly better than setting up for a 0-0 at home against your local rivals in a match that we needed points in. Sam has been quite vocal in what his approach will be - that defence will not hold out for 80 mins and then we nick a 1-0.
Just a shame it seems some of us have short memories of how painful the football was under Pulis - and at least then we had some players capable of playing that way.
So in answer to my question - nothing then..
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More defensively solid, lol. Well we got off to a flier last night. With Liverpool A next we may reach double figures in the goals against column 2 games in.
We have the worse defensive record In the league and Allardyce has taken 2 days of training. Rome wasn’t built in a day and honestly building Rome looks easier than teaching our lot to defend :)
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Barkley was 11m for the season according to multiple sources he deffo wasn't free mate.
I hadn't picked up on the "freebies" post, does make me smile. We couldn't even consider a loan like Barkley or paying a player like Grealish. If you think that the 200k + a week payed to Sturridge and the Pole were steep that will be small beans compared to the combined wages plus loan fee involved in these two. Out of our league in more ways than one.
However, if the board aren't expecting to shell out some big wages for Sam's loans and/or freebies then what was the point of bringing him in? Might as well have kept Slav and saved some money as we headed back to the Championship. If for a second they are thinking he can turn this squad into a competitive PL side without stumping up for some experienced PL additions then they are even more incompetent and out of touch than we thought.
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Funny that, because it seemed like he a) had no idea of his best team AND b) no idea of the best system to play AND c) no idea what he was doing.
Aside from that, plus only scoring around half a goal a game and conceding a league high amount it was going swimmingly I thought.
The relevant phrase here is "it seemed like". It seemed that way to you, but it didn't seem nearly so black and white to lots of the rest of us. Just your opinion, no more, no less.
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The relevant phrase here is "it seemed". It seemed that way to you, but it didn't seem nearly so black and white to lots of the rest of us. Just your opinion, no more, no less.
Ah so it was all part of his masterplan? 60+ games and never settled on a starting 11 or formation. He's just a poor tactician. Lovely bloke, charismatic, but poor at his job once things start to go wrong.
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The relevant phrase here is "it seemed like". It seemed that way to you, but it didn't seem nearly so black and white to lots of the rest of us. Just your opinion, no more, no less.
No it seemed that way to me aswell. Purely because that’s what I was viewing
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Seemed that way to me also...and I was a massive Bilic fan and still am.
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Bilic being a poor tactician was evident in Chelsea H and Man City A also?
What are these magic tactics Allardyce is bringing in?
Looks likely we'll concede a hatful to Liverpool, will definitely concede to Leeds, will concede at Wolves and WHU. Debatable whether we'll achieve a clean sheet at home to Arsenal.
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Bilic being a poor tactician was evident in Chelsea H and Man City A also?
What are these magic tactics Allardyce is bringing in?
Looks likely we'll concede a hatful to Liverpool, will definitely concede to Leeds, will concede at Wolves and WHU. Debatable whether we'll achieve a clean sheet at home to Arsenal.
I am not sure what outcome you are looking to achieve here?
Citing the Chelsea game where we gave up a 3 goal lead is hardly a shining example of tactical mastery. You would have been better off citing the Man United game where we really should have won it.
I am less concerned with our performances against the top sides, more concerned with how poor we have been against the sides around us.
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Alot of the discussion is focussing on the lack of quality in certain players, which is fair enough, but we lost last night because we were constantly outnumbered in midfield and at their end of the pitch. We couldn't put a string of passes together for 10 seconds because Villa had the numbers in midfield, which made it very difficult to get around them. When Villa had the ball they had all the time in the world and 6 or 7 options to pass to, because all our players were stuck back around our box. I don't care which players you choose, de Bruyne, Hazard, any team will struggle if they haven't got players to support them going forward. Not helped of course by going down to 10 men.
I can't recall Gibbs or Furlong getting over the half way line for example.
I can see SA thought it worked v Man City, but being at home and going behind after 4 minutes, the game plan needed to change before the last 10 minutes of the game.
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Bilic being a poor tactician was evident in Chelsea H and Man City A also?
What are these magic tactics Allardyce is bringing in?
Looks likely we'll concede a hatful to Liverpool, will definitely concede to Leeds, will concede at Wolves and WHU. Debatable whether we'll achieve a clean sheet at home to Arsenal.
This Chelsea game. They gifted us a 3 goal lead (plus good finishing by Robinson) and we never looked like hanging on to the 3 points. Hardly a tactical masterclass.
City they all put a shift in, but it would have been a regulation win if not for Johnstone.
I think your crystal ball has clouded over mate. 🔮
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This Chelsea game. They gifted us a 3 goal lead (plus good finishing by Robinson) and we never looked like hanging on to the 3 points. Hardly a tactical masterclass.
City they all put a shift in, but it would have been a regulation win if not for Johnstone.
I think your crystal ball has clouded over mate. 🔮
Ah in praise of Johnstone now, that same keeper you've lambasted for months, how ironic. Awful you couldn't give Bilic any credit for Man City A.
Last night was pitiful. But in defence of Allardyce we were again done over by VAR, as I'm one of the few to stand up and tell it like it is.
How is this Allardyce tactical masterclass going to work right now with these players? He's going to do what exactly that Bilic couldn't?
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Ah in praise of Johnstone now, that same keeper you've lambasted for months, how ironic. Awful you couldn't give Bilic any credit for Man City A.
Last night was pitiful. But in defence of Allardyce we were again done over by VAR, as I'm one of the few to stand up and tell it like it is.
How is this Allardyce tactical masterclass going to work right now with these players? He's going to do what exactly that Bilic couldn't?
Ive been critical of Johnstone too in the past. Does this mean those that have cannot now praise him when he plays well?
If it wasn’t for Johnstone we would have been absolutely hammered by City, I’d hardly call that a tactical masterclass from Bilic....
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Ah so it was all part of his masterplan? 60+ games and never settled on a starting 11 or formation. He's just a poor tactician. Lovely bloke, charismatic, but poor at his job once things start to go wrong.
You can be as sarcastic as you want, but it's still just your opinion. Never settled on a starting 11 or formation, or was flexible enough to change things depending on the opposition or when players lost form? It's a matter of opinion not fact.
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You can be as sarcastic as you want, but it's still just your opinion. Never settled on a starting 11 or formation, or was flexible enough to change things depending on the opposition or when players lost form? It's a matter of opinion not fact.
When this season did Callum Robinson lose form? What was the thought process behind re-signing last seasons team and then despite never playing it previously and with only a 3 week preseason try to crowbar said players into a back 3?
Flexibility it would appear is overrated: goals for 10, goals against 26.
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When this season did Callum Robinson lose form? What was the thought process behind re-signing last seasons team and then despite never playing it previously and with only a 3 week preseason try to crowbar said players into a back 3?
Flexibility it would appear is overrated: goals for 10, goals against 26.
Well I don't know Jacko. You'd need to ask Slaven. But if I were to guess, maybe re-signing last season's players was at least partly due to the fact that there was such a short pre-season. And possibly partly due to us having a rubbish scouting system? Yes, he got things wrong sometimes in my opinion as well, but I also think he got things right sometimes as well. He provided us with some good memories as well as some bad ones. Do you not agree? He at least tried to get his teams playing on the front foot, and at least tried to give some of the youngsters a chance, maybe with mixed results, but I liked him as a manager for those reasons. I also liked his honesty and integrity. You seem to see things very black and white, whereas my opinions are maybe more nuanced. Just different ways of looking at things I guess.
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Like others have said we basically have the same squad that got promoted and this was a suicidal idea given how dreadful they had played in 2020.
Nobody can be shocked we are struggling, expectations were we would go down from 90% of Albion fans. The board, and only because of interested buyers, have chanced their luck with a manager who’s never got relegated. If Sam does pull it off it will probably be bigger than the great escape season.
He’s going to need a miracle in the jan window and somehow completely change a teams approach, attitude and mindset.
I wish him all them luck but for me this squad is shot to pooh now.
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Like others have said we basically have the same squad that got promoted and this was a suicidal idea given how dreadful they had played in 2020.
Nobody can be shocked we are struggling, expectations were we would go down from 90% of Albion fans. The board, and only because of interested buyers, have chanced their luck with a manager who’s never got relegated. If Sam does pull it off it will probably be bigger than the great escape season.
He’s going to need a miracle in the jan window and somehow completely change a teams approach, attitude and mindset.
I wish him all them luck but for me this squad is shot to **** now.
They didn't play "dreadfully" in 2020 or else we wouldn't have got promoted. Some matches we played poorly and some matches we played well is a more realistic assessment
And as this is the Sam Allardyce thread, I should point out that this "never been relegated" tag is a bit of an urban myth. Never been relegated from the top flight would be more accurate. This could easily change of course.
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Can’t you “appreciate†the merits of both managers. Some people loved Bilic, he changed the mood and gave us some great moments (including promotion). He also had flaws as people have said. He was charismatic and inspired players and some
Improved under him. I am a Slav fan. We also had some really bad performances and tactically we did look poor at times. The results and performances against Fulham, Palace and Newcastle were most alarming.
Allardyce has a record of turning around teams and they improve under him. Once he gets his methods across we should improve. Whatever you think of Allardyce and his style his record isn’t bad. Teams like Newcastle, West Ham and Everton who all dismissed his style (and to be honest in Newcastle and West Hams case think way more of themselves than they should) were better off when he left than when he arrived.
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I mean it would be ridiculous to say he's lost the dressing room after one match, but I think there might be an issue here nonetheless. Slaven, whatever the pros and cons, I think still had the support and loyalty of the players. Yes, they need to be professional and all that, but Allardyce has to persuade them that he is a better option and get them really really motivated if he is to have any chance of keeping us up, and I think he will struggle. Early indications are that his approach is going to be more hard man (Pulis) than wise man (Roy), and it's a dangerous strategy. Morale is so important.
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I mean it would be ridiculous to say he's lost the dressing room after one match, but I think there might be an issue here nonetheless. Slaven, whatever the pros and cons, I think still had the support and loyalty of the players. Yes, they need to be professional and all that, but Allardyce has to persuade them that he is a better option and get them really really motivated if he is to have any chance of keeping us up, and I think he will struggle. Early indications are that his approach is going to be more hard man (Pulis) than wise man (Roy), and it's a dangerous strategy. Morale is so important.
SA might have been given free reign to do what he wants.
If that means replacing the whole squad, he won't care about morale.
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SA might have been given free reign to do what he wants.
If that means replacing the whole squad, he won't care about morale.
Replacing the whole squad! Really and just how much money is that going to cost and where will it come from?
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Replacing the whole squad! Really and just how much money is that going to cost and where will it come from?
Depends on what the club have promised Sam.
According to our fans, this squad isn't good enough to stop up, if that's the case, Sam's going to have to change it.
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Depends on what the club have promised Sam.
According to our fans, this squad isn't good enough to stop up, if that's the case, Sam's going to have to change it.
The club won't go that far even if they could they ain't doing it in January.
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Ive been critical of Johnstone too in the past. Does this mean those that have cannot now praise him when he plays well?
If it wasn’t for Johnstone we would have been absolutely hammered by City, I’d hardly call that a tactical masterclass from Bilic....
I love the naivety of this mind set. What formation was Bilic supposed to chose to avoid Man City avoiding control of the ball and most of the chances?
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Could his start have been any worse? 3pts further back from Burnley, 1pt back on Newcastle, Brighton, Fulham.
And a morale sapping 0-3 reverse by your local rivals.
If he's clever he'll play reserves at Liverpool, resting the big guns for Leeds and Arsenal, which are now season defining games.
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Could his start have been any worse? 3pts further back from Burnley, 1pt back on Newcastle, Brighton, Fulham.
And a morale sapping 0-3 reverse by your local rivals.
If he's clever he'll play reserves at Liverpool, resting the big guns for Leeds and Arsenal, which are now season defining games.
That's what some suggested for the Man City game.
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I love the naivety of this mind set. What formation was Bilic supposed to chose to avoid Man City avoiding control of the ball and most of the chances?
I really don’t appreciate you calling my comments and my mindset naive...not at all >:(
Formation wise, what has that got to do with my comments??
Regardless of the formation he played Man City we’re going to have a lot of shots, as they did, which is why I said Johnstone gave us the draw, not the tactics of Bilic.
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I really don’t appreciate you calling my comments and my mindset naive...not at all >:(
Formation wise, what has that got to do with my comments??
Regardless of the formation he played Man City we’re going to have a lot of shots, as they did, which is why I said Johnstone gave us the draw, not the tactics of Bilic.
So no credit to Bilic then for the point at Man City? Johnstone was kept fairly well guarded until the last five minutes. If Bilic had nothing to do with the team getting a point at the Eitihad then can we also absolve him of all blame for the defeats? I would dare to suggest that the management and the players deserve a heck of a lot of credit for their set-up, performance and result at City, and any argument against that is churlish.
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I really don’t appreciate you calling my comments and my mindset naive...not at all >:(
Formation wise, what has that got to do with my comments??
Regardless of the formation he played Man City we’re going to have a lot of shots, as they did, which is why I said Johnstone gave us the draw, not the tactics of Bilic.
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So your not giving credit to bilic for getting a draw at Man City, your saying Johnstone gave us the draw.... yet if we got turned over 4/5 nil no doubt it would have been down to the manager, his tactics and team selection ::) ???
Laughable.
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So your not giving credit to bilic for getting a draw at Man City, your saying Johnstone gave us the draw.... yet if we got turned over 4/5 nil no doubt it would have been down to the manager, his tactics and team selection ::) ???
Laughable.
So now you're assuming I’d say that if we got turned over it would have Bilic’s tactics? Can you quote me where I’ve said that or intimated that?
But for Johnstone’s heroics it would have been 4/5-1....
One man got the draw for us with us repeated outstanding saves.
And you can cut the the ‘laughable’ comments aswell, seeing to many people with these type comments and they are not wanted on this forum.
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So no credit to Bilic then for the point at Man City? Johnstone was kept fairly well guarded until the last five minutes. If Bilic had nothing to do with the team getting a point at the Eitihad then can we also absolve him of all blame for the defeats? I would dare to suggest that the management and the players deserve a heck of a lot of credit for their set-up, performance and result at City, and any argument against that is churlish.
They had plenty of shots throughout the game, not just the last 5 mins. Sam saved that point....
Bilic is as part of the draw as the team, but tactics wise he didn’t have much of an impact on the game itself.
You just can’t help yourself can you? You have to get a dig in regarding someone else’s opinion...
They played for the him, ran for him, but that’s the least I expect of players at our club.
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They had plenty of shots throughout the game, not just the last 5 mins. Sam saved that point....
Bilic is as part of the draw as the team, but tactics wise he didn’t have much of an impact on the game itself.
You just can’t help yourself can you? You have to get a dig in regarding someone else’s opinion...
They played for the him, ran for him, but that’s the least I expect of players at our club.
I think your being incredibly harsh and unfair. We will have to agree to disagree. Let’s just hope Allardyce or Sam Johnstone can engineer a similar miracle at Anfield.
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I saw the comments Big Sam made about Grealish which has really annoyed me.
"If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up"
Not enjoying our manager praising Villa players firstly, also Jack has already been relegated with Villa and was lucky not to be relegated with them last year...
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I saw the comments Big Sam made about Grealish which has really annoyed me.
"If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up"
Not enjoying our manager praising Villa players firstly, also Jack has already been relegated with Villa and was lucky not to be relegated with them last year...
but its a fact Evo, regardless of what you think of 'greasy jack' he is a very good footballer. If the vile do sell him then they are likely to sink like a stone in this league.
Sam is just being honest which I don't mind.
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He needs to get inside the players heads.
We need the footballers to start playing. Diangana and Pereira will be pivotal to this season. They need to start performing as they did against Everton at the start of the season. We have a talisman in Gallagher, the kid looks like he can run all day
If SA is into the transfer market in January, we need to loan/buy a decent centre half and somebody to hold the ball up front. Not Carrol either.
If we can get another striker in I think we can let Austin and ARK go. If we can get a striker as well, might be worth thinking about recalling Zohore and see if SA can do anything with him.
We need to try something because at the moment we are on a hiding to nothing.
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I saw the comments Big Sam made about Grealish which has really annoyed me.
"If we had a Jack Grealish, with all due respect to my players, we would stay up"
Not enjoying our manager praising Villa players firstly, also Jack has already been relegated with Villa and was lucky not to be relegated with them last year...
Yep Sam you are correct! If MP. PK GD et al all got the same protection as grassy jack they would all look world beaters. Jesus if I got that sort of protection and was allowed to get away with what he does I would look international class, and I'm over 60 with dodgy knees and hips. If that little pooh played for us the best thing he could do would be to teach our lads how to get away with diving screaming and getting opponents sent of by play acting in an unprofessional manner. Most fouled my arr's . he just gets given the benefit of more bad decisions than any other player. Grassy jack is a cheat- no more no less and is despised by so many supporters (and I would suggest fellow professionals if they only had the balls to stand up and be counted in public|) from so many different clubs for it. Do not mention that scumbag and West Bromwich Albion in the same sentence ever again mr Allardyce or you might have to think very carefully about where you show your ugly mush. As you might be able to deduce I am not now nor have ever been all that keen on mr grassy backside grealish
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Yep Sam you are correct! If MP. PK GD et al all got the same protection as grassy jack they would all look world beaters. Jesus if I got that sort of protection and was allowed to get away with what he does I would look international class, and I'm over 60 with dodgy knees and hips. If that little **** played for us the best thing he could do would be to teach our lads how to get away with diving screaming and getting opponents sent of by play acting in an unprofessional manner. Most fouled my arr's . he just gets given the benefit of more bad decisions than any other player. Grassy jack is a cheat- no more no less and is despised by so many supporters (and I would suggest fellow professionals if they only had the balls to stand up and be counted in public|) from so many different clubs for it. Do not mention that scumbag and West Bromwich Albion in the same sentence ever again mr Allardyce or you might have to think very carefully about where you show your ugly mush. As you might be able to deduce I am not now nor have ever been all that keen on mr grassy backside grealish
Well you have hit the Bathams early haven't you!
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but its a fact Evo, regardless of what you think of 'greasy jack' he is a very good footballer. If the vile do sell him then they are likely to sink like a stone in this league.
Sam is just being honest which I don't mind.
My point was hes lucky not to have two relegation on his CV and I'm not happy with the comments after Villa turned up at the Hawthorns and made us look like a league 1 side.
Yes he is a very talented player but I dont want to read that so soon after a Derby defeat
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My point was hes lucky not to have two relegation on his CV and I'm not happy with the comments after Villa turned up at the Hawthorns and made us look like a league 1 side.
Yes he is a very talented player but I dont want to read that so soon after a Derby defeat
I know Evo.
The fact of the matter is that they did exactly that. They showed the whole of the country how rubbish we are at the moment. It also gives Sam the evidence required to demand players so whilst it hurt big time, it may just have happened for the better.......
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They had plenty of shots throughout the game, not just the last 5 mins. Sam saved that point....
Bilic is as part of the draw as the team, but tactics wise he didn’t have much of an impact on the game itself.
You just can’t help yourself can you? You have to get a dig in regarding someone else’s opinion...
They played for the him, ran for him, but that’s the least I expect of players at our club.
So it's not acceptable to suggest that a mindset is naive, or a comment churlish, but it's ok to make a comment like "You just can't help yourself can you" ? I would suggest some double standards here with regard to respectful language.
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Some people really need to stop looking for any little excuse to knock Allardyce just because either they dont like him or they loved Bilic.
Bilic isnt coming back and Allardyce is our manager now. Get used to it.
We are all Albion and its Albion against the rest. Let's get on with backing the manager and the team. Constructive criticism is fine but this petty little point scoring is childish and benefits no one.
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Some people really need to stop looking for any little excuse to knock Allardyce just because either they dont like him or they loved Bilic.
Bilic isnt coming back and Allardyce is our manager now. Get used to it.
We are all Albion and its Albion against the rest. Let's get on with backing the manager and the team. Constructive criticism is fine but this petty little point scoring is childish and benefits no one.
I'm behind him, just the Grealish comments so soon after that defeat has rattled me.
Roll on Leeds and Arsenal
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I'm behind him, just the Grealish comments so soon after that defeat has rattled me.
He's right though isn't he??
Grealish was outstanding the other night. Some player. Just being honest.
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He's right though isn't he??
Grealish was outstanding the other night. Some player. Just being honest.
Yeah the best player on the pitch by a mile but if we had would that mean we would stay up. Dont know
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He's right though isn't he??
Grealish was outstanding the other night. Some player. Just being honest.
I also believe he's giving Diang and Periera a massive nudge.
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Yeah the best player on the pitch by a mile but if we had would that mean we would stay up. Dont know
It would go a long way.
It's one of those things you cant prove either way so its irrelevant really. I just think Allardyce was trying to emphasise how good Grealish is.
The only player we've had with that sort of talent in recent years is Harvey Barnes and that includes Pereira.
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I also believe he's giving Diang and Periera a massive nudge.
I think Diangana is a long way off.
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I think Diangana is a long way off.
Agreed but he's better than what we've seen .
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I hate to say it too, but as a footballer Grealish is top class, shame he's a diving, whining Villain, but it doesn't change the fact of his ability. Man City to come calling next summer.
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It would have been good if SA had addressed the fact we only managed one shot on target (or even one shot) over the course of 90 minutes at home. Of course he needed to mention the ball watching from Furlong for the first goal, but I feel the defence is going to get all the attention, whilst the blatant failings further up the pitch get ignored. Ok, being down to 10 men, gives a slight excuse, but even then, I've seen loads of teams down to 10 men make a fist of it going forward.
Still, I suppose highlighting Grealish does indicate he recognises how important an attacking midfielder can be in carrying the ball up the pitch into goal threatening areas.
I'd love it if he boosted this part of the team, even though Gallagher does a very respectable job, albeit he's not as effective as Grealish. The other big question for me is, will he allow Pereira and Krovinovic to play to their strengths.
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It would have been good if SA had addressed the fact we only managed one shot on target (or even one shot) over the course of 90 minutes at home. Of course he needed to mention the ball watching from Furlong for the first goal, but I feel the defence is going to get all the attention, whilst the blatant failings further up the pitch get ignored. Ok, being down to 10 men, gives a slight excuse, but even then, I've seen loads of teams down to 10 men make a fist of it going forward.
Still, I suppose highlighting Grealish does indicate he recognises how important an attacking midfielder can be in carrying the ball up the pitch into goal threatening areas.
I'd love it if he boosted this part of the team, even though Gallagher does a very respectable job, albeit he's not as effective as Grealish. The other big question for me is, will he allow Pereira and Krovinovic to play to their strengths.
Quite so. I think we can safely forget the Liverpool game and pray it isn't too embarrassing :-X, but the following two home games (Leeds & Arsenal) will be very revealing regarding how Allardyce see's things!
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Well you have hit the Bathams early haven't you!
started on Sunday at 1800 hrs ain't stopped yet , but supplies is getting low now so posts likely to be slightly more reasoned in future. OK freakish (predictive text so won't change it) can play but he is still a cheating git.
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I also believe he's giving Diang and Periera a massive nudge.
I reckon so. Hope it works, they need to step up and put their big boy pants on.
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started on Sunday at 1800 hrs ain't stopped yet , but supplies is getting low now so posts likely to be slightly more reasoned in future. OK freakish (predictive text so won't change it) can play but he is still a cheating git.
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I will not disagree with you on that point!
If he cut his girly rolls and yelps out of his game he would be a player to be admired, but he is a cheat, pure and simple.
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started on Sunday at 1800 hrs ain't stopped yet , but supplies is getting low now so posts likely to be slightly more reasoned in future. OK freakish (predictive text so won't change it) can play but he is still a cheating git.
Good man. Love the predictive text too.
In all seriousness I am just about to start the festive drinking. Merry Christmas to you Wodenson and to all my fellow Baggies. It's been a shoite year for more than one reason. Let's hope SA can develop an Albion Vaccine for 2021.
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He should go and manage the vile if desperate to manage that little s**t. I don’t want him here
Where did he say he wants to manage him? He said if we had a player like him (and he is correct). And he is hear now so it doesn't really matter wheather you want him here or not, get over it.
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Some of you lot on here must have been nightmares as kids when your toys were taken away from you. Blimey.
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Good man. Love the predictive text too.
In all seriousness I am just about to start the festive drinking. Merry Christmas to you Wodenson and to all my fellow Baggies. It's been a shoite year for more than one reason. Let's hope SA can develop an Albion Vaccine for 2021.
Thanks Coseley all the best to you and yours, and to all Baggies everywhere. Seriously hoping 2021 is a better year for all of us
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Some of you lot on here must have been nightmares as kids when your toys were taken away from you. Blimey.
You ain't seen/ heard /read, nothing yet. Just wait until some of us, really have something to get our teeth into - ARMAGEDDON my friend ARMAGEDDON.
All The best Gazberg, hope we can all have a few positives soon
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Good man. Love the predictive text too.
In all seriousness I am just about to start the festive drinking. Merry Christmas to you Wodenson and to all my fellow Baggies. It's been a shoite year for more than one reason. Let's hope SA can develop an Albion Vaccine for 2021.
I have started drinking too, Gin first for no particular reason, merry xmas everyone, and stand by for some fun at Anfield
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You ain't seen/ heard /read, nothing yet. Just wait until some of us, really have something to get our teeth into - ARMAGEDDON my friend ARMAGEDDON.
All The best Gazberg, hope we can all have a few positives soon
;D
All the best to you and yours as well mate. The.misery for us all will pass soon enough
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I hate to say it too, but as a footballer Grealish is top class, shame he's a diving, whining Villain, but it doesn't change the fact of his ability. Man City to come calling next summer.
NBC commentators in the US referred to greasy as 'theatric'.
Rather than further irritate the fan base, Sam should just say nothing. If he wants to 'light a fire' under some of our players, keep it in house.
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NBC commentators in the US referred to greasy as 'theatric'.
Rather than further irritate the fan base, Sam should just say nothing. If he wants to 'light a fire' under some of our players, keep it in house.
He hasn't irritated me, like Boris it doesn't matter what he does or says some of you are just going to have a pop. Sad really instead of getting behind him i thought thats what fans did? Silly me
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He hasn't irritated me, like Boris it doesn't matter what he does or says some of you are just going to have a pop. Sad really instead of getting behind him i thought thats what fans did? Silly me
Don't recall many behind Pulis or Pardew.
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Don't recall many behind Pulis or Pardew.
Haha, there were a few though.
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Don't recall many behind Pulis or Pardew.
I said Fans get behind the manager.
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I said Fans get behind the manager.
I've been pretty verbal about my feelings but I'm getting behind him.
If he pulls off the second Great Escape he'll be a messiah to me.
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A day before his appointment if you had asked me my opinion of Allardyce I would have told you he was pretty much the embodiment of everything I don't like in football.
So I am supposed to back him because he now manages my club?
How far does that extend? To the ownership? I guess not. Or to some random idiot on twitter who happens to be an Albion fan? In my naivety in the early days of twitter I tried that in the name of "The Albion Family" and pretty soon I was knee deep in the thoughts of the family's idiot cousins.
I don't like the appointment, I will never like the man and that is not going to change because he is managing the club. Neither will it alter based on the short run results.
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I've been pretty verbal about my feelings but I'm getting behind him.
If he pulls off the second Great Escape he'll be a messiah to me.
That's all we can do and fair play to you.
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A day before his appointment if you had asked me my opinion of Allardyce I would have told you he was pretty much the embodiment of everything I don't like in football.
So I am supposed to back him because he now manages my club?
How far does that extend? To the ownership? I guess not. Or to some random idiot on twitter who happens to be an Albion fan? In my naivety in the early days of twitter I tried that in the name of "The Albion Family" and pretty soon I was knee deep in the thoughts of the family's idiot cousins.
I don't like the appointment, I will never like the man and that is not going to change because he is managing the club. Neither will it alter based on the short run results.
You don't like the man thats your prerogative. Do you actually know the man? I don't so can't say i don't like him. I'm not saying i am happy with the appointment but as i have said before he is now the manager of the club i have supported for over 50 years and until he does something against the rules i hope he gets the team playing and starts getting the results because i hate it when When West Bromwich Albion don't win.
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Don't recall many behind Pulis or Pardew.
I might if we were all on Beachy Head. Just imagine, Albion manager dominoes.
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You don't like the man thats your prerogative. Do you actually know the man? I don't so can't say i don't like him. I'm not saying i am happy with the appointment but as i have said before he is now the manager of the club i have supported for over 50 years and until he does something against the rules i hope he gets the team playing and starts getting the results because i hate it when When West Bromwich Albion don't win.
Are we talking past, present or future here? Just wondering.
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You don't like the man thats your prerogative. Do you actually know the man? I don't so can't say i don't like him. I'm not saying i am happy with the appointment but as i have said before he is now the manager of the club i have supported for over 50 years and until he does something against the rules i hope he gets the team playing and starts getting the results because i hate it when When West Bromwich Albion don't win.
If we were being pedantic, he said everything he doesn’t like in football rather than not liking the man....however I really don’t like the man, I’ve never met him but the England disgrace was enough.
For me my club is now on hold .
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If we were being pedantic, he said everything he doesn’t like in football rather than not liking the man....however I really don’t like the man, I’ve never met him but the England disgrace was enough.
For me my club is now on hold .
If i reply with what i really want to say i will be banned! So i will just leave it there.
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You don't like the man thats your prerogative. Do you actually know the man? I don't so can't say i don't like him. I'm not saying i am happy with the appointment but as i have said before he is now the manager of the club i have supported for over 50 years and until he does something against the rules i hope he gets the team playing and starts getting the results because i hate it when When West Bromwich Albion don't win.
No, I don't but he has been a very public figure for well over two decades there are enough words and deeds out there to form an opinion.
Whether I support him personally or not isn't going to change the outcome and like any other era it will pass. I hope it passes quickly without long term damage to the club.
To be doubly pedantic I did go on to say I didn't like the man in my original post.
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I might if we were all on Beachy Head. Just imagine, Albion manager dominoes.
I'm knocking.
We've had a lot of blooming dominoes in the last fifteen years.
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If i reply with what i really want to say i will be banned! So i will just leave it there.
Feel free to PM me, I won’t be offended, your opinion is your opinion.
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NBC commentators in the US referred to greasy as 'theatric'.
Rather than further irritate the fan base, Sam should just say nothing. If he wants to 'light a fire' under some of our players, keep it in house.
In keeping with the season of the year I would agree that he is most definitely something of a pantomime dame.
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Ex England Goalkeeper Paul Robinson says Sam Allerdyce is the best coach he as ever worked with and there is no one better at preparing a team. That is good enough for me. Someone who actually knows the game and the man
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Ex England Goalkeeper Paul Robinson says Sam Allerdyce is the best coach he as ever worked with and there is no one better at preparing a team. That is good enough for me. Someone who actually knows the game and the man
Its not just him saying it either.. a lot of ex-players have come out saying the same thing on media channels in the last week.
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Its not just him saying it either.. a lot of ex-players have come out saying the same thing on media channels in the last week.
Patrick Van Aanholt was one of them.
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Personally not keen on him as a manager.
That said at Bolton he had some quality players JJ Okocha and Djorkaeff great ball players, an enforcer in Campo.
He had a bettering ram as a centre forward with Kevin Davis,
My point being he knows what it takes to make a team hard to beat and capable of giving bloody noses to the big boys,
I would imagine that centre half and a bulldozer up front will be his priorities.
I think midfield wise we have enough talent going forward but they/re being used as extra defenders at the minute.
Like I said I'm not keen on the bloke but lets see what he can do first before we bin him
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Personally not keen on him as a manager.
That said at Bolton he had some quality players JJ Okocha and Djorkaeff great ball players, an enforcer in Campo.
He had a bettering ram as a centre forward with Kevin Davis,
My point being he knows what it takes to make a team hard to beat and capable of giving bloody noses to the big boys,
I would imagine that centre half and a bulldozer up front will be his priorities.
I think midfield wise we have enough talent going forward but they/re being used as extra defenders at the minute.
Like I said I'm not keen on the bloke but lets see what he can do first before we bin him
Bolton was his best period undoubtedly but it was light years ago in footballing terms . Can you still set a team up like that and be successful when therre is next to no physical contact allowed and where VAR is ready to jump on any player exhaling out of turn ! Personally I think it’s unlikely but guess we will find out !
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Bolton was his best period undoubtedly but it was light years ago in footballing terms . Can you still set a team up like that and be successful when therre is next to no physical contact allowed and where VAR is ready to jump on any player exhaling out of turn ! Personally I think it’s unlikely but guess we will find out !
Depends who you are............West Brom or the other lot!
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Can we cut the personal stuff out then folks. Some like the bloke, some don't and people are allowed to have their onions without getting grief back.
I don't want to have to start issuing bans but if people cannot act like adults then Christmas spirit or not this site will be losing a few members so your choice folks cut the digs and personal stuff or take a permanent break from the forum.
Thats applies to ALL topics on this forum not just this one.
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Patrick Van Aanholt was one of them.
Yes he was one of them mate. I had this idea of Allardyce, hearing some of the players who played under him has changed my mind on him as a coach.
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I'm with Standaman's Squad on Allardyce. My heart sank when I realised it was really going to happen that he was to become manager of West Brom. I have never enjoyed watching any of the clubs he has managed, but this was not an intensive research project so I may have missed something. I do not like what I have seen nor heard from him so far, but most sincerely hope that he will keep us in this greedy corrupt league and then move on leaving us with a team that can continue to survive and improve under a more acceptable (to me) leadership, and that also includes the present ownership. Until then I will try to adhere to the tenet that 'if you have nothing good to say about someone then say nothing'. However it will only apply to Allardyce, and not to the rest of you reprobates on here especially whilst the Batham's and Talisker keeps flowing. :-*
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Allardyce isn't the manager I would like to have in charge of us, but I understand why he is.
I think at best he can be described as a pragmatist, in that he'll assess the strengths of our players get them to focus on those strengths, rather than things they aren't good at.
At Sunderland he played Jermain Defoe up front by himself, which doesn't fit the Target Man mould at all, and I think they generally had Borini and Khazri on the left and right, who again I wouldn't say are archetypal Allardyce forwards.
Hopefully he'll work with what he has got and recognise where there are things we can do well, and reduce what is being asked of the weaker players.
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Allardyce isn't the manager I would like to have in charge of us, but I understand why he is.
I think at best he can be described as a pragmatist, in that he'll assess the strengths of our players get them to focus on those strengths, rather than things they aren't good at.
At Sunderland he played Jermain Defoe up front by himself, which doesn't fit the Target Man mould at all, and I think they generally had Borini and Khazri on the left and right, who again I wouldn't say are archetypal Allardyce forwards.
Hopefully he'll work with what he has got and recognise where there are things we can do well, and reduce what is being asked of the weaker players.
This was the train of thought on the Zonal Marking podcast I listened to this week. I looked back again at that Sunderland side and was quite surprised to see two attacking full backs as part of the main XI in van Aanholt and Yedlin. The centre of midfield was however packed with defensive midfielders, converted centre back Kirchhoff, Cattermole and M'Vila. I don't remember all of their games but expect that could have become a 343 with the full backs pressing up and Kirchhoff dropping in.
Thinking further back to his Bolton sides, they would play up to and off of Davies and Nolan so his teams have been constructed with different types of players down the years. It will be interesting to see whether we get a target man to play off or look to do something similar to the job at Sunderland where the centre of the pitch was full of physical, combative players which allowed the rest of the team to counter knowing they had that insurance behind them. I would suggest it depends on what is available in the window.
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This was the train of thought on the Zonal Marking podcast I listened to this week. I looked back again at that Sunderland side and was quite surprised to see two attacking full backs as part of the main XI in van Aanholt and Yedlin. The centre of midfield was however packed with defensive midfielders, converted centre back Kirchhoff, Cattermole and M'Vila. I don't remember all of their games but expect that could have become a 343 with the full backs pressing up and Kirchhoff dropping in.
Thinking further back to his Bolton sides, they would play up to and off of Davies and Nolan so his teams have been constructed with different types of players down the years. It will be interesting to see whether we get a target man to play off or look to do something similar to the job at Sunderland where the centre of the pitch was full of physical, combative players which allowed the rest of the team to counter knowing they had that insurance behind them. I would suggest it depends on what is available in the window.
You're not allowed to reveal my sources! :D
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This was the train of thought on the Zonal Marking podcast I listened to this week. I looked back again at that Sunderland side and was quite surprised to see two attacking full backs as part of the main XI in van Aanholt and Yedlin. The centre of midfield was however packed with defensive midfielders, converted centre back Kirchhoff, Cattermole and M'Vila. I don't remember all of their games but expect that could have become a 343 with the full backs pressing up and Kirchhoff dropping in.
Thinking further back to his Bolton sides, they would play up to and off of Davies and Nolan so his teams have been constructed with different types of players down the years. It will be interesting to see whether we get a target man to play off or look to do something similar to the job at Sunderland where the centre of the pitch was full of physical, combative players which allowed the rest of the team to counter knowing they had that insurance behind them. I would suggest it depends on what is available in the window.
In today’s game it would have to be nearer the Sunderland way than the Bolton way. Bolton relied a lot on physicality , if memory serves Davies was the most penalised player in the league . In this day age I can’t see teams getting away with anywhere near as much as went on then
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From memory Davies was also the most fouled player at the time. Very combative and never shirked a challenge. Very different type to Fash the Bash though.
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I can see why the board went with him and I can see why they sacked Billic. One win in 23 simply isn't good enough no matter how much of a nice guy he is but I really am struggling to get behind big Sam. It's sad really but I just don't care anymore and that hurts to openly say.
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I can see why the board went with him and I can see why they sacked Billic. One win in 23 simply isn't good enough no matter how much of a nice guy he is but I really am struggling to get behind big Sam. It's sad really but I just don't care anymore and that hurts to openly say.
While Lai is here time and the footballing world are just passing us by.
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Why is Allardyce wearing a mask? He’s the only manager I have seen
Do this
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Why is Allardyce wearing a mask? He’s the only manager I have seen
Do this
He might have underlying health conditions? Or is being cautious given his age.
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He's not wearing it over his eyes is he? :D
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I’m assuming the anti SA gang didn’t cheer the first goal of his tenure?
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Very quiet in here suddenly...
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With Bilic we'd have probably caved after the first goal. I know we didn't at Man City away but we had a nasty habit of doing so this season.
Great point and well-deserved in the end.
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With Bilic we'd have probably caved after the first goal. I know we didn't at Man City away but we had a nasty habit of doing so this season.
Great point and well-deserved in the end.
Like we caved Vs Man City?
This Bilic camp Vs Allardyce camp is beginning to get very tiresome?
The first half was poor, but we kept them at bay. Liverpool seemed content passing it sideways 35 yards from our goal. I'm hoping Allardyce tweaked it/inspired them to support the forward ball a bit more and we actually had a counter attacking threat
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Against Man City we leaked three or four good chances late on, we didnt do that today. Johnstone had one save to make and did it.
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Fantastic point against the best team in the league, well done Sam
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Against Man City we leaked three or four good chances late on, we didnt do that today. Johnstone had one save to make and did it.
For sure, we looked capable of hanging on tonight. I had to watch the last 10 minutes against city from behind the sofa
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With Bilic we'd have probably caved after the first goal. I know we didn't at Man City away but we had a nasty habit of doing so this season.
Great point and well-deserved in the end.
Thought we were much luckier at City than here. Only poor finishing got us a point.
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I can see why the board went with him and I can see why they sacked Billic. One win in 23 simply isn't good enough no matter how much of a nice guy he is but I really am struggling to get behind big Sam. It's sad really but I just don't care anymore and that hurts to openly say.
It does my head in how some posters like to take the end of a championship season post lockdown after we had built up a huge lead and lump it onto the premiership campaign. Draws we're enough at the backend of the championship to get us over the line, just. Each season should be judged on it's own merits. Bilic without any luck managed 1 win in 13. If you wan't to criticise that record I've got no problem. Allardyce has so far managed 0 wins in 2.
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It does my head in how some posters like to take the end of a championship season post lockdown after we had built up a huge lead and lump it onto the premiership campaign. Draws we're enough at the backend of the championship to get us over the line, just. Each season should be judged on it's own merits. Bilic without any luck managed 1 win in 13. If you wan't to criticise that record I've got no problem. Allardyce has so far managed 0 wins in 2.
So disingenuous. If Brentford hadn't bottled it completely last season would have been a massive waste of time. If anything the end of last season makes his record worse not better.
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Thought we were much luckier at City than here. Only poor finishing got us a point.
You always need a bit of luck to get a result against the best teams. We also played out of our skin at Old Trafford and had no luck whatsoever. In fact had VAR not screwed us we would have had a great chance of winning there, let alone drawing; to lose that one was a travesty.
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You always need a bit of luck to get a result against the best teams. We also played out of our skin at Old Trafford and had no luck whatsoever. In fact had VAR not screwed us we would have had a great chance of winning there, let alone drawing; to lose that one was a travesty.
Quality wise, United are well below City, who are well below Liverpool.
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So disingenuous. If Brentford hadn't bottled it completely last season would have been a massive waste of time. If anything the end of last season makes his record worse not better.
It's not disingenuous at all and you are completely out of order attacking the character of my post because you don't agree with it.
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He’s just delivered our best performance of the season.
At least he has something to build from.
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Quality wise, United are well below City, who are well below Liverpool.
Man Utd five points off Liverpool with a game in hand. Man City are below then in fifth. Both sides are stacked with quality. As are Liverpool.
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He’s just delivered our best performance of the season.
At least he has something to build from.
Agreed. Let's pray we can get a win against Leeds, as we haven't yet managed this season to back up some impressive away performances with anything against the teams around us.
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Remember when people used to say ‘Allardyce will never manage us because he got sacked as a rookie Assistant Manager in the 80’s’. What a load of cobblers that turned out to be.
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Man Utd five points off Liverpool with a game in hand. Man City are below then in fifth. Both sides are stacked with quality. As are Liverpool.
Hence why I mentioned quality and not league position mate. ;)
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Remember when people used to say ‘Allardyce will never manager us because he got sacked as a rookie Assistant Manager in the 80’s’. What a load of cobblers that turned out to be.
Remember when fans said they'd rather see us relegated playing nice football than stay up hoping to nick 1-0s? I 'member.
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Hence why I mentioned quality and not league position mate. ;)
All three of them are packed with quality; it is pedantic to suggest that the games against any of them were anything other than extremely difficult challenges. That Man Utd forward line with Fernandes supporting and Cavani on the bench is frightening. City probably impressed me the least out of the three of them and I expect Utd to push Liverpool close for the title; injuries permitting. Although Liverpool tonight looked very flat as well and are missing too many players. Bottom line, we were very unlucky not to get results at all three; that all have world class talent.
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Remember when people used to say ‘Allardyce will never manage us because he got sacked as a rookie Assistant Manager in the 80’s’. What a load of cobblers that turned out to be.
There was definitely a perception that Allardyce resented our board for sacking him and as a consequence didn't like the club. I think he said as much. All water under the bridge now.
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Quality wise, United are well below City, who are well below Liverpool.
Disagree that city are well below Liverpool quality wise.
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Disagree that city are well below Liverpool quality wise.
Time will tell but I expect Liverpool to win the title by at least 15 points.
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Disagree that city are well below Liverpool quality wise.
It's subjective and a never ending debate. Point is, all three have tons of quality and individual players worth the value of our squad. On the one hand, great news we have played all of them and got a few results, on the other hand we have to pick it up massively against the rest of the league. Allardyce's post match interview was level headed and positive.
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Both sides have quality and different quality at that. Which Willy is bigger than the other Willy is not necessarily needed.
Both points are invaluable to us - today was a much better performance as we largely nullified an excellent side without having to rely on individual quality to keep us in the game. The city result was one way traffic - tonight was different in that not only did we neutralise Liverpool but we gave them a bloody nose too.
We have a blueprint going forwards and we need to build on that otherwise tonight’s hard work is all in vain.
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Well done Sam Allardyce and Albion. It was a great performance and fantastic result v Liverpool.
However, IMO it was only on a par with the performances at Man U and Man C. The MU game was pretty even and we could've won never mind draw.
I think our players have a problem with belief and playing on the front foot.
The games v Leeds and Arsenal at home really are an acid test. Better to win 1 and lose 1 than draw both.
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Both sides have quality and different quality at that. Which Willy is bigger than the other Willy is not necessarily needed.
Both points are invaluable to us - today was a much better performance as we largely nullified an excellent side without having to rely on individual quality to keep us in the game. The city result was one way traffic - tonight was different in that not only did we neutralise Liverpool but we gave them a bloody nose too.
We have a blueprint going forwards and we need to build on that otherwise tonight’s hard work is all in vain.
Yes and no. I can't see us setting up so defensively against Leeds, West Ham, Arsenal, Fulham, Wolves etc. We have had some decent away performances this season. The performances and results at the Hawthorns however have been shockingly bad. If Allardyce can get us ticking at home and a couple of wins then we have a chance.
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Time will tell but I expect Liverpool to win the title by at least 15 points.
Can we have a wager on that please? Genuine offer.
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Can we have a wager on that please? Genuine offer.
Pm me.
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It's subjective and a never ending debate. Point is, all three have tons of quality and individual players worth the value of our squad. On the one hand, great news we have played all of them and got a few results, on the other hand we have to pick it up massively against the rest of the league. Allardyce's post match interview was level headed and positive.
Absolutely right, we have been outclassed by teams in mid-table. Unless we start to improve on that we have no chance. These points against the top six are a big bonus but we've got to get results out of Arsenal, Leeds and Dingles
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Like we caved Vs Man City?
This Bilic camp Vs Allardyce camp is beginning to get very tiresome?
The first half was poor, but we kept them at bay. Liverpool seemed content passing it sideways 35 yards from our goal. I'm hoping Allardyce tweaked it/inspired them to support the forward ball a bit more and we actually had a counter attacking threat
I'm not in a camp that's you that has said that, I haven't even used this site in days so I genuinely don't care. I also referenced the City game...
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Reds squad is now worth a whopping £1.83billion according to Forbes.
West Brom squad allegedly worth £55.81 million.
Purely financially we have less than a thirtieth of their 'value'.
Don't give a stuff about league positions tonight.
They might have some quality there, but we were FAR better value for money today.
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Yes and no. I can't see us setting up so defensively against Leeds, West Ham, Arsenal, Fulham, Wolves etc. We have had some decent away performances this season. The performances and results at the Hawthorns however have been shockingly bad. If Allardyce can get us ticking at home and a couple of wins then we have a chance.
Can't see why not. Any team worth their salt in this division should come to us expecting to win. Same plan....stay in the game, frustrate, compete, let them lose some shape as the game goes on and push on in a controlled way.
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Yes and no. I can't see us setting up so defensively against Leeds, West Ham, Arsenal, Fulham, Wolves etc. We have had some decent away performances this season. The performances and results at the Hawthorns however have been shockingly bad. If Allardyce can get us ticking at home and a couple of wins then we have a chance.
I’m unsure - I think what we’ve seen in the second half is our blue print going forwards. I don’t think Big Sam will want us to be too open given how impotent we are in front of goal. He mentioned something similar in his post match conference.
Unless we get some solid additions in January which can address our weakest areas...
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This game reminded me of Hodgsons first game in charge. You could see what they were working on in training as the side had a definite shape. Second half it was tweaked slightly and I thought we were super. It’s a shame there isn’t a clear week before the next game as they could drill that defending even more but we really need to beat Leeds now.
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Can't see why not. Any team worth their salt in this division should come to us expecting to win. Same plan....stay in the game, frustrate, compete, let them lose some shape as the game goes on and push on in a controlled way.
First half we had Callum Robinson at right back and Dianganna at left back. It was farcical at times, with all ten outfield players thirty yards from their own goal and no out ball. The Liverpool players got bored after 30 minutes of kicking it sideways between them. In a weird way it sent them a bit demented. But in the first half that actually put us under more pressure as we couldn't keep the ball for any period of time or get forwards to create a chance. Second half we came out of our shell a lot more. Tactics will change week to week, typically I'd expect us to set-up a lot more like we did under Hodgson against the mid table sides. Yes try to be compact and defensively organised but also carry a threat with the ball.
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End of the day it worked. Threw Klopp off. His players couldn't work it out either. Nullified them. Went into 2nd half one down and then took it to them. Brilliant plan from Sam.
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Two homes games in a row now against Leeds on Tuesday and Arsenal on Saturday. If and it's a massive if but suppose we managed to win both and get 6 points. Our season would be completely transformed and it would put us in a great position going into the January transfer window to entice the right calibre of player in.
Can Allardyce work a miracle this week?
Leeds have been up and down. Sublime against Newcastle. Didn't seem to play too badly at Man Utd yet got hammered. Tight victory over Burnley today which was very un-Leeds like. Before that they got done by West Ham and set pieces. The way they keep running is frightening but they are definitely weak from crosses and short of centre backs. They are also overly reliant on Bamford and our games against them last season we're fairly even. Potential to win the game.
Then Arsenal have been all over the place. Defensively naive and without any goals until they got all the lucky breaks against Chelsea and turned them over. That's another game in which we could win, if Sam can get us organised, physical and ruthless; against a flaky opposition.
The next month with the games coming thick and fast and the transfer window is going to be fascinating.
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First half we had Callum Robinson at right back and Dianganna at left back. It was farcical at times, with all ten outfield players thirty yards from their own goal and no out ball. The Liverpool players got bored after 30 minutes of kicking it sideways between them. In a weird way it sent them a bit demented. But in the first half that actually put us under more pressure as we couldn't keep the ball for any period of time or get forwards to create a chance. Second half we came out of our shell a lot more. Tactics will change week to week, typically I'd expect us to set-up a lot more like we did under Hodgson against the mid table sides. Yes try to be compact and defensively organised but also carry a threat with the ball.
After around 15 minutes, I wasn't sure where Gibbs was, as you said, Diangana was mostly in the full back position.
I spend the next 10 minutes watching Gibbs, & then it clicked, Gibbs was man marking Sala, when Sala pulled Gibbs out of position Diangana covered the runner on the outside.
Same on the other side, Furlong was man marking Mane, Robinson covered the runner.
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After around 15 minutes, I wasn't sure where Gibbs was, as you said, Diangana was mostly in the full back position.
I spend the next 10 minutes watching Gibbs, & then it clicked, Gibbs was man marking Sala, when Sala pulled Gibbs out of position Diangana covered the runner on the outside.
Same on the other side, Furlong was man marking Mane, Robinson covered the runner.
Exactly how Mourinho tried to deal with them.
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Exactly how Mourinho tried to deal with them.
Does this mean we have the special one in charge?
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Does this mean we have the special one in charge?
He will be if he keeps us up..
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He will be if he keeps us up..
If he keeps us up he will have worked a miracle.
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Well it took Big Sam 3 halves of football to make us solid and a threat going forward. Slav was a top bloke but the disparity is alarming in how they can organise a team to be decent in both facets of the game.
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Well it took Big Sam 3 halves of football to make us solid and a threat going forward. Slav was a top bloke but the disparity is alarming in how they can organise a team to be decent in both facets of the game.
Yesterday's performance and result was in-keeping with our earlier performances and results against Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs and Man City. All of which were followed up by abject displays and results against mid table teams at the Hawthorns. As great as yesterday was it was only a single point, and we are miles off the pace. We urgently need to win football games. Until we can do that it's far too early to be getting carried away. Leeds and Arsenal are huge games. Let's see if Allardyce can get us any more productive in those at the Hawthorns.
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......Leeds and Arsenal are huge games. Let's see if Allardyce can get us any more productive in those at the Hawthorns.
While I feel it's a bit early for me to expect too much of SA, we really, really could do with four points minimum from these two. I know that's pretty obvious, but I had to type it in the hope it becomes real.
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Yesterday's performance and result was in-keeping with our earlier performances and results against Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs and Man City. All of which were followed up by abject displays and results against mid table teams at the Hawthorns. As great as yesterday was it was only a single point, and we are miles off the pace. We urgently need to win football games. Until we can do that it's far too early to be getting carried away. Leeds and Arsenal are huge games. Let's see if Allardyce can get us any more productive in those at the Hawthorns.
Yesterday's result isn't in keeping with anything else that has happened this season, and I feel the result is being understated on here and in the media.
Liverpool until yesterday hadn't dropped points at Anfield in the Premier League while the title was still on the line since 30th January 2019.
That was a colossal effort yesterday and something no other team has done for 23 months.
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Yesterday's result isn't in keeping with anything else that has happened this season, and I feel the result is being understated on here and in the media.
Liverpool until yesterday hadn't dropped points at Anfield in the Premier League while the title was still on the line since 30th January 2019.
That was a colossal effort yesterday and something no other team has done for 23 months.
Hate to rain on your parade but at any point had Liverpool gone 2 up it was game over.
Fine and dandy to set up like that at Liverpool but as soon as a team decides a point is okay from a game with us and sits in let's see how things go then.
While it is a remarkable point and one that is unlikely to replicated by other teams in the bottom half it does not change the landscape unless it is backed up without wins against those teams around us.
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Hate to rain on your parade but at any point had Liverpool gone 2 up it was game over.
Fine and dandy to set up like that at Liverpool but as soon as a team decides a point is okay from a game with us and sits in let's see how things go then.
While it is a remarkable point and one that is unlikely to replicated by other teams in the bottom half it does not change the landscape unless it is backed up without wins against those teams around us.
They didn't though.
Feel a few regularly decent contributors have lost all perspective because it's Allardyce.
You admit it's a remarkable result. There is no need whatsoever to downplay it as a standalone achievement.
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Hate to rain on your parade but at any point had Liverpool gone 2 up it was game over.
Fine and dandy to set up like that at Liverpool but as soon as a team decides a point is okay from a game with us and sits in let's see how things go then.
While it is a remarkable point and one that is unlikely to replicated by other teams in the bottom half it does not change the landscape unless it is backed up without wins against those teams around us.
To be fair thats exactly what Big Sam said last week against sides like Liverpool we need to be organised and look to nick a result but against those sides around us we need to be picking up maximum points.
What the manager is doing is similar to what Hodgson was faced with when he arrived, he had to go back to basics and make us drilled and organised to help us build, the results came quite quickly but the team was alot stronger than this one with the prolific Odemwingie leading the line, but Sam as the benefit of a transfer window that Sly Roy did not.
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I don't see as we can read too much into one result such as Liverpool after all it wasn't that different from the City game when we subsequently sacked the manager.
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I don't see as we can read too much into one result such as Liverpool after all it wasn't that different from the City game when we subsequently sacked the manager.
The Manager was sacked regardless going into that game because of his record over a calendar year. One result didn’t make a difference.
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I don't see as we can read too much into one result such as Liverpool after all it wasn't that different from the City game when we subsequently sacked the manager.
Because Manchester City's home record pales in comparison.
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Yesterday’s result was as much to do with Liverpool’s ineptitude as it was our organisation. They strolled around the pitch at walking pace knocking the ball around like a pre season friendly. Had they tuned the screw it would have been curtains for us.
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Yesterday’s result was as much to do with Liverpool’s ineptitude as it was our organisation. They strolled around the pitch at walking pace knocking the ball around like a pre season friendly. Had they tuned the screw it would have been curtains for us.
You can only draw with what's in front of you
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Well , I for one feel we will turn a corner! 2021 will be Albion's year !
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If they had got a second? If they had turned the screw it would have been different? They didn't we got a draw! I can't believe the negatives on here if Bilic had done what Allerdyce did yesterday it would have been wonderful. I suppose with some it won't matter what he does it will never be good enough. Sad really.
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If they had got a second? If they had turned the screw it would have been different? They didn't we got a draw! I can't believe the negatives on here if Bilic had done what Allerdyce did yesterday it would have been wonderful. I suppose with some it won't matter what he does it will never be good enough. Sad really.
I think everyone agrees it was a fantastic point, but the difference is most of us don't think the club should be ordering an open top bus tour on the back of it. Jacko is going on like we've won the champions league. If we beat Leeds I'll be ecstatic. If we lose then that point at Anfield will be close to be meaningless. We need 4 points from our next two home games to back up that draw. Our position in the league table remains dire. Hopefully the biggest impact of that draw will be to inject the players with some belief.
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I think the Leeds and Wolves games will be far more telling. Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Spurs, United. 3 draws and 2 narrow defeats against the current big 5. Games against these sides don’t seem to have been an issue so far. It’s the rest we struggle against. Hopefully Allardyce can do what Bilic couldn’t in that respect.
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I know its blindingly obvious but if we win next 3 were almost on a point per game,back in the room.
Sam will be aiming for 17 the ,as I keep saying that's our target this season,then load up with dough and by young well.
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Jacko is going on like we've won the champions league.
No, that is the season after next 😜
I agree with the rest of your post, we need to start picking up wins against mid and bottom table sides.
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If they had got a second? If they had turned the screw it would have been different? They didn't we got a draw! I can't believe the negatives on here if Bilic had done what Allerdyce did yesterday it would have been wonderful. I suppose with some it won't matter what he does it will never be good enough. Sad really.
FWIW I actually like Allardyce and feel we have a much better chance of staying up now. The point I was trying to make was the result and performance was no different to the one v City yet Big Sam is getting a lot more credit that Bilic got.
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FWIW I actually like Allardyce and feel we have a much better chance of staying up now. The point I was trying to make was the result and performance was no different to the one v City yet Big Sam is getting a lot more credit that Bilic got.
Have a scroll back through the billic thread if that's what you really think... There is literally a page of praise before his sacking was leaked.... If that wouldnt have happened, he'd have had more praise... Even if Liverpool was a better result
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If they had got a second? If they had turned the screw it would have been different? They didn't we got a draw! I can't believe the negatives on here if Bilic had done what Allerdyce did yesterday it would have been wonderful. I suppose with some it won't matter what he does it will never be good enough. Sad really.
Make a statement that he admits being a dishonest, moral vacuum with no thought for the club but simply focussed on his own financial gain, admit that and if as a by product we are entertained and achieve some success then and only then will I grudgingly accept him.
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FWIW I actually like Allardyce and feel we have a much better chance of staying up now. The point I was trying to make was the result and performance was no different to the one v City yet Big Sam is getting a lot more credit that Bilic got.
I’d argue the second half we were a genuine threat going forward and more comfortable in keeping them 20 yards from our goal, we offered nothing going forward v Man City apart from Grant’s chance and the goal.
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Two worst home performances of the season so far under Big Sam.
Hammed by Villa, fantastic point at Liverpool, humiliated by Leeds. Zero wins.
New manager drop in form continues.
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Maybe a 7 v 0 defeat might see Sam walk away. Bilic is drinking his glass of wine with a huge grin on his face. Who would want to manage this shambles of a club. Relegated with no likely hood of a new owner. Oh what a pickle we might find ourselves in. These are seriously depressing times
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Any pressure and expectation on these players and they absolutely crumble.
All those lambasting Bilic for WBA 1-5 CP need to take it back as VAR ruined that game anyway.
There is no belief or arrogance in this team.
Allardyce needs to carry the can for picking Sawyers ahead of Pereira. I said before Sawyers and Livermore are the worst 2 central midfielders in the division.
If we buy 1 player in the next month it has to be a central midfielder.
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Any pressure and expectation on these players and they absolutely crumble.
All those lambasting Bilic for WBA 1-5 CP need to take it back as VAR ruined that game anyway.
There is no belief or arrogance in this team.
Allardyce needs to carry the can for picking Sawyers ahead of Pereira. I said before Sawyers and Livermore are the worst 2 central midfielders in the division.
If we buy 1 player in the next month it has to be a central midfielder.
All started for me when Bilic bottled it at the restart and tried to drag us over the line into the automatics with random formations and negative tactics which was directly opposite to the way we played under him in the first 4 excellent months of his reign. These players have been crushed for ages.
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Any pressure and expectation on these players and they absolutely crumble.
All those lambasting Bilic for WBA 1-5 CP need to take it back as VAR ruined that game anyway.
There is no belief or arrogance in this team.
Allardyce needs to carry the can for picking Sawyers ahead of Pereira. I said before Sawyers and Livermore are the worst 2 central midfielders in the division.
If we buy 1 player in the next month it has to be a central midfielder.
Is there any point wasting money next month? The amount we would need to spend isn't available. We blew it with the lack of quality signings during the summer
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Maybe a 7 v 0 defeat might see Sam walk away. Bilic is drinking his glass of wine with a huge grin on his face. Who would want to manage this shambles of a club. Relegated with no likely hood of a new owner. Oh what a pickle we might find ourselves in. These are seriously depressing times
Billic was a very big part of the problem and one win in twenty odd games will prove that. The fact that Brentford choked at the last second always has a massive part on why we went up.
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Billic was a very big part of the problem and one win in twenty odd games will prove that. The fact that Brentford choked at the last second always has a massive part on why we went up.
What is the point of this post? Getting promoted is completely irrelevant to what's happening right now.
Fact is we have conceded at least 7 goals in 2 home games under a Manager who has designs on tightening us up.
Bad bad mistake to leave out our most creative player.
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Completly agree with that last bit Greg in games like this Perriera needs to start instead of either Robinson or Diangana.
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Completly agree with that last bit Greg in games like this Perriera needs to start instead of either Robinson or Diangana.
Diangana is not right. I'd have him out. Play Robbo more. His work rates one of our highest.
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Currently overseeing one of the worst performances I've ever seen in my 18 years as a fan.
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Currently overseeing one of the worst performances I've ever seen in my 18 years as a fan.
Agreed, and yet a large percentage of fans suggested a change in manager would see this group of players perform.
They are utter garbage.
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76 mins. 5 v 0 down. 26% possession. Only 2 shots. Seriously wtf is going on? What a crock of **** we have become.
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76 mins. 5 v 0 down. 26% possession. Only 2 shots. Seriously wtf is going on? What a crock of **** we have become.
Can you imagine the stick Bilic would have received had he still been in charge.
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What is the point of this post? Getting promoted is completely irrelevant to what's happening right now.
Fact is we have conceded at least 7 goals in 2 home games under a Manager who has designs on tightening us up.
Bad bad mistake to leave out our most creative player.
No excusing today, but SA has had 10 days, which has included Christmas, and three match days with a group he is unfamiliar with. The training ground time will have been extremely limited.
Some of frailties here are bilics legacy. Whether SA works out here or not, doesn’t make Bilic a better manager.
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At what point do we sack him?!
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Can you imagine the stick Bilic would have received had he still been in charge.
After 18 months in charge as opposed to 10 days? Yes
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No excusing today, but SA has had 10 days, which has included Christmas, and three match days with a group he is unfamiliar with. The training ground time will have been extremely limited.
Some of frailties here are bilics legacy. Whether SA works out here or not, doesn’t make Bilic a better manager.
Of course it doesn’t, however it proves the point this squad is garbage and it does not matter who’s in charge.
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At what point do we sack him?!
Christ on a bike.
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Remember the man in charge was part of our coaching staff vs Woking. Just saying....
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At what point do we sack him?!
He will resign well before that
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Remember the man in charge was part of our coaching staff vs Woking. Just saying....
I can only think people don't remember the Woking game, squad of players or that season in general to be drawing any comparison.
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At what point do we sack him?!
Honestly wouldn't be surprised If its later tonight.
Statement from Dowling along the lines of 'we havent received the
New manager bounce we expected...'
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I can only think people don't remember the Woking game, squad of players or that season in general to be drawing any comparison.
I remember it well and this current season has the same feeling of no hope whatsoever.
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Honestly wouldn't be surprised If its later tonight.
Statement from Dowling along the lines of 'we havent received the
New manager bounce we expected...'
🤦â€â™‚ï¸
10 days.
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I can only think people don't remember the Woking game, squad of players or that season in general to be drawing any comparison.
It was a tongue in cheek remark ;D
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🤦â€â™‚ï¸
10 days.
Defeat at Blackpool and it might be one of the shortest reigns at the Baggies!
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I don’t like Allardyce, never have done and made that point before he was announced.
That said Allardyce is not the problem, the issue lies with a club who have no ambition and a squad that is one of the worst in premier league history.
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Agreed, and yet a large percentage of fans suggested a change in manager would see this group of players perform.
They were in denial, unable to accept how limited the squad was at this level, unable to bear the idea of sticking with the manager through relegation who had an identity and players who liked playing for him. With our very limited budget you need a good manager in charge for several seasons to build a team capable of competing in the premiership. It cannot be done in one summer. Some fans could not accept this. They will get what they deserve. We're a nothing club now and will be looking for yet another manager in the summer to rip it all up and start all over again.
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I've nothing against the man, I've never liked his style of play. That said, setting up in a 6-4 formation away to Citeh of Liverpool I can sort of understand, but not against Villa Leeds et al. I can accept losing let's at least have a go and lose 5-3 or something a little more entertaining.
We all accepted that relegation was almost a certainty before we kicked a ball, the more I think about it if we'd beaten the Vile the year before would it have been any better, probably not. Not sure getting rid of Slav has solved the problem, all I know is the club are as embarrassing as they've ever been in my lifetime and I'm 58!
I've seen some rubbish over the years, this is on a Saundersesque scale at the moment!
I'm not a happy chappy, but then I know I'm not the only one of us!
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Defeat at Blackpool and it might be one of the shortest reigns at the Baggies!
I'm almost certain we'll lose to Blackpool. If anyone thinks Dowling and co are remotely bothered about a Cup run then they're in the wrong game imo.
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I don’t like Allardyce, never have done and made that point before he was announced.
That said Allardyce is not the problem, the issue lies with a club who have no ambition and a squad that is one of the worst in premier league history.
agree mate player's are coning a living, should give this weeks wages to charity. As for Sam I'd say he will want 6 or 7 first team additions
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They were in denial, unable to accept how limited the squad was at this level, unable to bear the idea of sticking with the manager through relegation who had an identity and players who liked playing for him. With our very limited budget you need a good manager in charge for several seasons to build a team capable of competing in the premiership. It cannot be done in one summer. Some fans could not accept this. They will get what they deserve. We're a nothing club now and will be looking for yet another manager in the summer to rip it all up and start all over again.
He would not have signed another deal. No idea how many times this needs to be said. Results also don't suggest they were playing for him post lockdown.
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agree mate player's are coning a living, should give this weeks wages to charity. As for Sam I'd say he will want 6 or 7 first team additions
He may well do, however my concern is we will spunk money on has been players who will be gone come the end of the season.
In the absence of funds We should have followed the Norwich way and regrouped in the championship.
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Allardyce won't resign he is here for whatever money he can mine from the club and resigning doesn't come with a payout.
Please don't tell me this is better and really don't tell me this can be fixed by a few old has been signings in January.
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I actually hope we don’t allow him to bring players in to fit his style in Jan. We will be stuck with them next season. We need to be thinking ahead now. It’s more about clearing out the dead wood not bringing more in.
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He would not have signed another deal. No idea how many times this needs to be said. Results also don't suggest they were playing for him post lockdown.
Even if that were the case, at least employ someone with a long term view.
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Big Sam picking up the pieces of:
Bilic’s inability to get players fit enough (previous form at West Ham)
If only we had had Big Sam from the start of the season.
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That wouldn’t have happened with Bilic in my view. Is heavy defeats were only after we had someone sent off.
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Can we just say it once more for the people in the back:-
BILIC WAS NEVER STAYING PAST THIS SEASON AND BOTH PARTIES WANTED OUT EARLIER THAN HE WAS SACKED BUT THEY ALL COMMITTED FOOTBALLING SUICIDE AND STAYED 'TOGETHER FOR THE KIDS'.
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Big Sam picking up the pieces of:
Bilic’s inability to get players fit enough (previous form at West Ham)
If only we had had Big Sam from the start of the season.
At what point will you realise this group of players are garbage.
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Even if that were the case, at least employ someone with a long term view.
Agreed but not happening while Lai is in charge.
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He has to learn very quickly about our bottlers.
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Even if that were the case, at least employ someone with a long term view.
It's also nonsense - anyone can see that the players did play for Bilic, right up until the end. The results weren't there but that doesn't mean the players weren't playing for the manager - the effort certainly was.
It shows how short sighted our board was - I'm sure it wasn't impossible for them to have a working relationship with Bilic.
It's clear we're going down now but instead of at least trying and being 'plucky', we're parking the bus every game and conceding more than ever.
I also don't want him to buy in Jan, who wants to be lumbered with a team of hit and hope long ball merchants.
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Can we just say it once more for the people in the back:-
BILIC WAS NEVER STAYING PAST THIS SEASON AND BOTH PARTIES WANTED OUT EARLIER THAN HE WAS SACKED BUT THEY ALL COMMITTED FOOTBALLING SUICIDE AND STAYED 'TOGETHER FOR THE KIDS'.
Perhaps people at the back will appreciate:
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHOS IN CHARGE, THIS SQUAD IS ****
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Big Sam picking up the pieces of:
Bilic’s inability to get players fit enough (previous form at West Ham)
If only we had had Big Sam from the start of the season.
Succinctly put. Spot on.
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Allardyce is on x3 goals conceded per game. Bilic was x2 over a longer period. So much for tightening up at the back. Mental leaving out your best attacking threat, how does that help?
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Can we just say it once more for the people in the back:-
BILIC WAS NEVER STAYING PAST THIS SEASON AND BOTH PARTIES WANTED OUT EARLIER THAN HE WAS SACKED BUT THEY ALL COMMITTED FOOTBALLING SUICIDE AND STAYED 'TOGETHER FOR THE KIDS'.
Yes, we understand - BUT IT IS STILL SHORT SIGHTED OF THE CLUB TO HAVE ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN.
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We were all so excited at signing Pereira, now he can't get in the team, I'm also concerned that Gallagher won't be here past January and share others feelings that a few has beens are on the way in! Remind me, haven't we been down this road before?
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Perhaps people at the back will appreciate:
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHOS IN CHARGE, THIS SQUAD IS SH**
Agreed but we wouldnt have had this squad if Bilic had picked up his toys and walked away.
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They were in denial, unable to accept how limited the squad was at this level, unable to bear the idea of sticking with the manager through relegation who had an identity and players who liked playing for him. With our very limited budget you need a good manager in charge for several seasons to build a team capable of competing in the premiership. It cannot be done in one summer. Some fans could not accept this. They will get what they deserve. We're a nothing club now and will be looking for yet another manager in the summer to rip it all up and start all over again.
Totally agree mate, I said a few weeks ago that if we did exactly this we would take the club back 3 years, looking at this I may have been a bit on the conservative side.
We have an owner who doesn't give an hoot about the future and is panicking with his decisions, very worrying times.
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Yes, we understand - BUT IT IS STILL SHORT SIGHTED OF THE CLUB TO HAVE ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN.
We are all on the same page, i didnt want Bilic in charge after the end of last season once the budget nonsense started but many of you seemed too which is where im confused
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At what point will you realise this group of players are garbage.
I 100% agree with you that the players are are not great or prem quality. But these players being a lot fitter and have Sam from the start would have more points.
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Succinctly put. Spot on.
Yes because conceding 3 goals a game on average so far is the kind of run we'd like to see extended over the season.
I don't know why you can't understand that the 'sit back and defend for your lives' tactic just doesn't work at this level any more. The players are just too good.
Look at the teams that have done well once promoted in the last few years - name one that parked the bus every game and did well. Just one. I'll wait.
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I 100% agree with you that the players are are not great or prem quality. But these players being a lot fitter and have Sam from the start would have more points.
No they wouldn't.
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I 100% agree with you that the players are are not great or prem quality. But these players being a lot fitter and have Sam from the start would have more points.
I very much doubt it, they are one of the worst squads in premier league history.
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Allardyce is on x3 goals conceded per game. Bilic was x2 over a longer period. So much for tightening up at the back. Mental leaving out your best attacking threat, how does that help?
Allardyce has killed what little attack we had. It's not surprising the defence is even worse as he has conceded possession of the ball so the opposition now have even more opportunities to attack.
Worst performance and result tonight since Crewe beat us 5-1 in 1999 I think.
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Anybody who thought sam for slav would suddenly see an upturn in results was naive. We are such a bad team lacking quality pace and heart in many cases
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I very much doubt it, they are one of the worst squads in premier league history.
I still think we would have 10 points at least. Lowest squad value in the league. 34 mil behind 19th place value and 200mil behind villa
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I very much doubt it, they are one of the worst squads in premier league history.
Honestly, I don't think they're *that* bad. The difference is the gap between our squad and the others. Our defence and defensive midfield is just too poor. Attacking wise, if we had the ball and some good possession we've looked alright at times. That's the trouble with Sam - he doesn't bother attacking because he follows the "don't concede and you get at least a point" school of thought. Unfortunately for him times have moved on and he doesn't have a squad like at Everton.
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Yes because conceding 3 goals a game on average so far is the kind of run we'd like to see extended over the season.
I don't know why you can't understand that the 'sit back and defend for your lives' tactic just doesn't work at this level any more. The players are just too good.
Look at the teams that have done well once promoted in the last few years - name one that parked the bus every game and did well. Just one. I'll wait.
3 games in his 10 days in charge, what is it 4 or 5 training sessions? I'll happily revisit your question in March if it's still valid.
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Allardyce has killed what little attack we had. It's not surprising the defence is even worse as he has conceded possession of the ball so the opposition now have even more opportunities to attack.
Worst performance and result tonight since Crewe beat us 5-1 in 1999 I think.
Exactly, it's so obvious - if you've got a weak point in the team you don't deliberately and repeatedly expose it against better sides.
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Worth noting Allardyce didn't win any of his first 6 league matches at Crystal Palace. They were safe by mid April.
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Doesn't really matter who is in charge this season , terrible squad built by a poor football director, who was employed by a horrendous owner.
Bit early to judge Sam but it's just a different approach to losing every week from what I've seen so far. It wouldn't surprise me if Sam walks early this season to save his record/ reputation , maybe after Lai and Dowling inevitably dont back him in the transfer window
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Worth noting Allardyce didn't win any of his first 6 league matches at Crystal Palace. They were safe by mid April.
How many points were they adrift by?
What squad did he start with?
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Worth noting Allardyce didn't win any of his first 6 league matches at Crystal Palace. They were safe by mid April.
And do you think this squad is anywhere near good enough?
Unless we bring in a minimum of 7 first team regulars I can’t see us having a chance.
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Doesn't really matter who is in charge this season , terrible squad built by a poor football director, who was employed by a horrendous owner.
Bit early to judge Sam but it's just a different approach to losing every week from what I've seen so far. It wouldn't surprise me if Sam walks early this season to save his record/ reputation , maybe after Lai and Dowling inevitably dont back him in the transfer window
Points are everything but with out tactics I just can't see where we're going to score goals from. Having to rely on set pieces but with a squad nowhere near as good at those as under Pulis.
in that case it's watch us get relegated but playing football or watch us get relegated by parking the bus..
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How naive is Big Sam. Surely he knows that we take months to bring any player in. There will be no significant arrivals in Jan. The best he can hope for is an injured has been or a youngster in loan on the last day of the window.
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Doesn't really matter who is in charge this season , terrible squad built by a poor football director, who was employed by a horrendous owner.
Spot on. Rotten from the top down mate. The club could have protected the players by admitting they couldn't do anything to keep us up ala Norwich but covered their own behinds with the usual "we've been competitive in the market blah" and then hung the management and players out to dry.
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And do you think this squad is anywhere near good enough?
Unless we bring in a minimum of 7 first team regulars I can’t see us having a chance.
Mate do you just copy and paste these replies?
He's just said he'll tell Dowling and Ken what he wants after the Blackpool game, which he intimated would be a reserve team.
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He’s been dealt a terrible hand but 1 (?) shot on target against the (joint) worst defence in the league, with a whole host of injuries is totally inexcusable.
We need to score 2 goals a game to get anything out of any game and that’s not going to happen with your attackers on the bench or playing in their own box.
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Mate do you just copy and paste these replies?
He's just said he'll tell Dowling and Ken what he wants after the Blackpool game, which he intimated would be a reserve team.
Surely he knows what he needs now? There aren’t any hidden gems in the reserves.
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Mate do you just copy and paste these replies?
He's just said he'll tell Dowling and Ken what he wants after the Blackpool game, which he intimated would be a reserve team.
Given that you don’t answer the question how else should I respond?
You have previously suggested any decent manager would keep this squad up, I therefore assume you don’t feel the need for numerous signings.
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How many points were they adrift by?
What squad did he start with?
Can't answer that but he spent about £20 million on three players in Jan. We'll be lucky if we have a £200k loan fee.
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Sam's first big riddle to solve is how these players can play like they do against Man U , Man City , Spurs and Liverpool and then turn up like they do against everybody else .
I'm stumped.
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Taking a team that likes to play football and asking them to set-up with a flat low block was always going to end in tears. It makes as much sense as taking our squad under Tony Pulis and asking Dawson and Co play pretty little triangles.
The only thing that has changed since Allardyce has come is that we are no longer playing to our limited strengths. Pereira on the bench would have been unthinkable. As would be the idea of replacing Matt Phillips for another centre back when 4-0 down.
What has been most disappointing so far is the employment of the same ultra defensive tactics against Villa, Liverpool and Leeds. I'm led to believe that Allardyce is more pragmatic etc but so far all we have seen is a primitive one trick pony method of trying to play football that the players hate.
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Sam's first big riddle to solve is how these players can play like they do against Man U , Man City , Spurs and Liverpool and then turn up like they do against everybody else .
I'm stumped.
The problem remains if we are to stay in this league we need to win games.
Against the likes of Liverpool, Man City, Man United etc fans accept we will defend for 90 minutes and hopefully hit them on the break to gain a point.
You can’t utilise the same tactics against every other team.
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Sam's first big riddle to solve is how these players can play like they do against Man U , Man City , Spurs and Liverpool and then turn up like they do against everybody else .
I'm stumped.
Can't work it out either. Can get DESERVED points against the best teams in Europe at their own grounds but if Fulham, Leeds Villa etc turn up they collapse usually after we suicidally gift them a goal.
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The real question now is how does he plan to get us back up again, assuming he stays
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What is most worrying is that in two home games against Villa and Leeds the team has been set-up with no ability to play the ball forwards, to amount any decent attacks on the opposition goal. Both Villa and Leeds left the Hawthorns with the easiest clean sheets they will ever get. That is down to the tactical switch which Allardyce has made which hasn't helped defensively either as we now play games of football with even less possession and hence even more defending to do. Under Bilic at least the shape of the team allowed spells of possession of the ball to take the pressure off. That has disappeared, as has any attacking patterns of play.
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The problem remains if we are to stay in this league we need to win games.
Against the likes of Liverpool, Man City, Man United etc fans accept we will defend for 90 minutes and hopefully hit them on the break to gain a point.
You can’t utilise the same tactics against every other team.
Totally agree we need to offer more but the difference is huge , we never get going and thats not just under Sam
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Can't answer that but he spent about £20 million on three players in Jan. We'll be lucky if we have a £200k loan fee.
I think the COVID fund is going to be made available. Minimum £20 million will be spent imo.
Feel they just gave up on Bilić in the summer.
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I think the COVID fund is going to be made available. Minimum £20 million will be spent imo.
Feel they just gave up on Bilić in the summer.
Yep, they knew he was not going to last because despite anything else they never wanted him to last. Expect Sam to shift a few comfy lads on and utilise those fees as well even if just on good loans.
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I think the COVID fund is going to be made available. Minimum £20 million will be spent imo.
Feel they just gave up on Bilić in the summer.
Theres no way he takes the job without a decent lump to spend imo
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You know I hope he can turn it around. Obviously.
But since a lot of folks on here were banging on about points per game re: Slaven.
One from nine. Eight extra goals to the deficit.
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I wouldn't allow Allardyce to bring in a set of ageing old schoool players on high wages with no resale value. That will only cripple the club further in the summer. We already need to get the likes of Gibbs, Livermore, Austin, Zohore off the books and get more Gallaghers in. We don't need Allardyce spending limited money on the likes of James Tomkins and other premiership cast offs.
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The problem remains if we are to stay in this league we need to win games.
Against the likes of Liverpool, Man City, Man United etc fans accept we will defend for 90 minutes and hopefully hit them on the break to gain a point.
You can’t utilise the same tactics against every other team.
He just wanted to get through the Christmas period with the most basic set up to start keeping clean sheets imo. He's learned so much about individuals in these 2 home games. I don’t expect it to continue like this. Today the squad showed all the weaknesses you espouse in virtually every post. He wants to know if a relatively poor squad has got the fortitude and concentration to be drilled to do the basics better and then go from there.
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The sensible, common sense thing would have been to either use the COVID funds at the start of the season or take out those low interest loans that all PL clubs were offered by financial institutions to get through COVID.
Our intellectuals in charge did neither and made a pigs ear of doing very little at the same time too.
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I wouldn't allow Allardyce to bring in a set of ageing old schoool players on high wages with no resale value. That will only cripple the club further in the summer. We already need to get the likes of Gibbs, Livermore, Austin, Zohore off the books and get more Gallaghers in. We don't need Allardyce spending limited money on the likes of James Tomkins and other premiership cast offs.
Agreed, unfortunately that’s exactly the type of player he will bring in.
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He just wanted to get through the Christmas period with the most basic set up to start keeping clean sheets imo. He's learned so much about individuals in these 2 home games. I don’t expect it to continue like this. Today the squad showed all the weaknesses you espouse in virtually every post. He wants to know if a relatively poor squad has got the fortitude and concentration to be drilled to do the basics better and then go from there.
Which is exactly how not to set-up against Leeds, who are defensively weak and give you opportunities to attack them.
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The sensible, common sense thing would have been to either use the COVID funds at the start of the season or take out those low interest loans that all PL clubs were offered by financial institutions to get through COVID.
Our intellectuals in charge did neither and made a pigs ear of doing very little at the same time too.
We should have used our parachute money to spend another £20m-30m and bring in Anthony Robinson, Ivan Toney and a Harrison Reed type alongside the signings we made. Then we would have had a chance. Had we stayed up, fine. Had we gone down plenty of scope to sell a player or two if we needed that money back. Bilic told the board and they didn't listen.
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And what about this defence makes him think that it will keep clean sheets? We didn't keep many last season and that was against much worse teams, who had a lot less of the ball.
It's like if you had a striker that's 5ft 2" and you decided to spend the entire game launching balls into the box for him to head and then being surprised when he doesn't score.
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We should have used our parachute money to spend another £20m-30m and bring in Anthony Robinson, Ivan Toney and a Harrison Reed type alongside the signings we made. Then we would have had a chance. Had we stayed up, fine. Had we gone down plenty of scope to sell a player or two if we needed that money back. Bilic told the board and they didn't listen.
Spot on, fully agree with this post i championed those kind of signings too but our board are proper special.
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Has he gone yet ?
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"Allardyce blunt and brutal in his post-match press conference, questioning players' determination and fitness.
"Leeds didn't just play us off the pitch, they ran us off the pitch." #WBA"
MAdeley Athletic.
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He just wanted to get through the Christmas period with the most basic set up to start keeping clean sheets imo. He's learned so much about individuals in these 2 home games. I don’t expect it to continue like this. Today the squad showed all the weaknesses you espouse in virtually every post. He wants to know if a relatively poor squad has got the fortitude and concentration to be drilled to do the basics better and then go from there.
I don’t expect it to continue like this, in my opinion Allardyce will attempt to shut up shop in every game irrespective of the opponents.
Whilst that may secure the odd point we will not secure the wins that are required to stay in this division.
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And what about this defence makes him think that it will keep clean sheets? We didn't keep many last season and that was against much worse teams, who had a lot less of the ball.
It's like if you had a striker that's 5ft 2" and you decided to spend the entire game launching balls into the box for him to head and then being surprised when he doesn't score.
I think this is the point. A good manager arranges the tactics and shape to suit the strength of the team. Allardyce is imposing his style on the players which doesn't suit them. The set-up tonight was brain dead.
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I don’t expect it to continue like this, in my opinion Allardyce will attempt to shut up shop in every game irrespective of the opponents.
Whilst that may secure the odd point we will not secure the wins that are required to stay in this division.
Id agree with this, it’ll work sometimes and we might pick up points when it does but whether that’ll be enough I doubt it.
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"Allardyce blunt and brutal in his post-match press conference, questioning players' determination and fitness.
"Leeds didn't just play us off the pitch, they ran us off the pitch." #WBA"
MAdeley Athletic.
Fitness was soon spotted then....
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Fitness was soon spotted then....
Stands out clear as day to me and has done since last Xmas. EFL teams would outlast us. Very poor indeed.
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Pointless talking/comparing Allardyce to Bilic now...he's gone so we need to move on.
Regardless of management, tonight was bad, very, very bad.
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Fitness was soon spotted then....
I don't know how he wouldn't know this. Surely the first thing you'd do when taking over is look at the fitness stats for your squad? And it was the same team that he played against Liverpool with the same tactics.
Maybe it's also down to the fact that parking the bus means you do a lot of running closing down and chasing the ball. And that he played the same team that had ran their socks off against Liverpool.
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Stands out clear as day to me and has done since last Xmas. EFL teams would outlast us. Very poor indeed.
Just an excuse us fans make to beat the previous regime apparently ;)
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Id agree with this, it’ll work sometimes and we might pick up points when it does but whether that’ll be enough I doubt it.
It might be enough - but only if Brighton or Burnley have a woeful second half of the season. We need wins.
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Whatever you think of him he has had 3 games and just over a week with the players. We put in abject displays under Bilic just like we have today. Sam has inherited these players and will have learnt a lot about them....(personally i think our summer recruitment was so over hyped and is now coming home to roost). Why go so hard and stubbornly after Grady, Krov, Robinson (and Grant) etc. Was the remit to put the band back together?
To be honest I think he has realized what a mess we are in (probably more of a mess than was sold to him). We are still in the league and have a chance of staying up because there are some other terrible teams.
Sam may be a lot of things but a bad manager he isn't. Michael Cox on the zonal marking podcast said under Bilic i would have given WBA 10-15% chance of staying up and under Sam 30+% chance.
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Taking a team that likes to play football and asking them to set-up with a flat low block was always going to end in tears. It makes as much sense as taking our squad under Tony Pulis and asking Dawson and Co play pretty little triangles.
The only thing that has changed since Allardyce has come is that we are no longer playing to our limited strengths. Pereira on the bench would have been unthinkable. As would be the idea of replacing Matt Phillips for another centre back when 4-0 down.
What has been most disappointing so far is the employment of the same ultra defensive tactics against Villa, Liverpool and Leeds. I'm led to believe that Allardyce is more pragmatic etc but so far all we have seen is a primitive one trick pony method of trying to play football that the players hate.
this is the best post I have seen tonight,
A Naive and cowardly set up, reaped its rightful rewards.
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It might be enough - but only if Brighton or Burnley have a woeful second half of the season. We need wins.
Burnley will climb the table. They are over their injury crisis and will grind out the results.
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Problem Sam will have will anybody want to join a sinking ship in January?
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Just an excuse us fans make to beat the previous regime apparently ;)
Some fans would be happy to see us playing tippy tappy ball at all costs. I don't get it. Sure i'd prefer it but we are not solid enough to try it yet.
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Problem Sam will have will anybody want to join a sinking ship in January?
Yep its EURO SEASON! Loads of quality players we normally wouldnt get will be dying to get out on loan to anyone in the PL and WILL play their hearts out to get into their countries squads.
Dowlings Euro Scouting Network is finding value as we speak.
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Yep its EURO SEASON! Loads of quality players we normally wouldnt get will be dying to get out on loan to anyone in the PL and WILL play their hearts out to get into their countries squads.
Good point
Might be worth giving Polish international Grosicki a go
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Whatever you think of him he has had 3 games and just over a week with the players. We put in abject displays under Bilic just like we have today. Sam has inherited these players and will have learnt a lot about them....(personally i think our summer recruitment was so over hyped and is now coming home to roost). Why go so hard and stubbornly after Grady, Krov, Robinson (and Grant) etc. Was the remit to put the band back together?
To be honest I think he has realized what a mess we are in (probably more of a mess than was sold to him). We are still in the league and have a chance of staying up because there are some other terrible teams.
Sam may be a lot of things but a bad manager he isn't. Michael Cox on the zonal marking podcast said under Bilic i would have given WBA 10-15% chance of staying up and under Sam 30+% chance.
I've no issues with the players we went for. I just don't see how we'd get better players than Periera, Krov, Diangana, Robinson for what we spent. Bilic's targets weren't brought into the club. It's the problem you get when you rely on loans - it costs a lot just to get you back to the starting point. The problem wasn't getting us back to the starting point - it was not adding to it.
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I've no issues with the players we went for. I just don't see how we'd get better players than Periera, Krov, Diangana, Robinson for what we spent. Bilic's targets weren't brought into the club. It's the problem you get when you rely on loans - it costs a lot just to get you back to the starting point. The problem wasn't getting us back to the starting point - it was not adding to it.
Exactly this. He talked about 2 phases. First putting the side back together and then adding to it. It appears he wasn’t keen on spending so much on Diangana either. Looking like poor business in hindsight.
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Some fans would be happy to see us playing tippy tappy ball at all costs. I don't get it. Sure i'd prefer it but we are not solid enough to try it yet.
But our team is more suited to tippy tappy football than it is to parking the bus. We aren't very good at defending and we are asking the team to defend for 75% of the match. How can we be surprised when they concede?
And if we are going down then I'd rather see us trying to play football the right way than getting relegated and having to watch that week in, week out.
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this is the best post I have seen tonight,
A Naive and cowardly set up, reaped its rightful rewards.
Thank you.
Allardyce has reported said tonight that Leeds "ran us off the pitch" but we didn't leave our own 18 yard box. The rest of pitch we conceded to them.
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Thank you.
Allardyce has reported said tonight that Leeds "ran us off the pitch" but we didn't leave our own 18 yard box. The rest of pitch we conceded to them.
;D
Albionic is pretty easy to please these days. Slag off Big Sam and you're flavour of the month in East Anglia ;)
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But our team is more suited to tippy tappy football than it is to parking the bus. We aren't very good at defending and we are asking the team to defend for 75% of the match. How can we be surprised when they concede?
And if we are going down then I'd rather see us trying to play football the right way than getting relegated and having to watch that week in, week out.
I'd say they are ONLY suited to tippy tappy football which isn't good enough. The defenders can barely defend. The midfield is incredibly lightweight. We got rid of most of the unbalanced squad PUlis left and instead of going for middle ground we flopped completely the other way. Now we have virtually no one who can tackle out of 25+ players. That is INSANE. Bilic has left us with what Pulis did. A lop sided squad full of identical players.
The obsession with tippy tappy is whats killing us. Need 2 or 3 brickhouses to balance all these boys.
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Good point
Might be worth giving Polish international Grosicki a go
May as well try to Polish the turd.
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;D
Albionic is pretty easy to please these days. Slag off Big Sam and you're flavour of the month in East Anglia ;)
Not like you to address the motive of a poster rather than the substance of the discussion. Are you being paid per pointless emoji?.
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From BHAM MAIL
"They have to get stronger in the mind. If you do that it can make you run faster,†Allardyce explained. “If I was to get a gun out and point it to their heads and said ‘I’m going to shoot you’ they would run as fast as they possibly could.
“At the moment when I look at the fitness levels of us and Leeds there was a big difference. I could see it.
“The players have to realise – whatever they think they are is not enough, I said you must work harder at the club and look after yourself even better than you are away from club.
If we do that we can get better together. I’m yet to see whether they’ve dedicated themselves more because tonight put a lot of doubt in my mind about their dedication. Leeds didn’t only play us off the field, they ran us off the field.â€
It’s a huge blow when you see something like that happen to the team, particularly considering our position,†he continued. “You’ve got to dismiss that from your mind and you’ve got to be more determined and have more fight, produce more quality and try and get back in the game without conceding another goal.
“The one thing we have to stop is going a goal down and chasing the game, only this time we scored it for them. We failed to do that at every level tonight.
“There was grit and determination and quality defending we showed at Liverpool. We have a problem with the transition - the lack of transition quickly back into defensive unity meant that Leeds took full advantage.â€
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I'd say they are ONLY suited to tippy tappy football which isn't good enough. The defenders can barely defend. The midfield is incredibly lightweight. We got rid of most of the unbalanced squad PUlis left and instead of going for middle ground we flopped completely the other way. Now we have virtually no one who can tackle out of 25+ players. That is INSANE. Bilic has left us with what Pulis did. A lop sided squad full of identical players.
The obsession with tippy tappy is whats killing us. Need 2 or 3 shithouses to balance all these boys.
Yeah, but we don't have them. So using defenders that can barely defend and an incredibly lightweight midfield to try and hold out for 90 minutes is never going to work. I can understand it - just - against Liverpool, but not against Villa and Leeds. Especially Leeds who had just a leaky a defence as we did.
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From BHAM MAIL
"They have to get stronger in the mind. If you do that it can make you run faster,†Allardyce explained. “If I was to get a gun out and point it to their heads and said ‘I’m going to shoot you’ they would run as fast as they possibly could.
“At the moment when I look at the fitness levels of us and Leeds there was a big difference. I could see it.
“The players have to realise – whatever they think they are is not enough, I said you must work harder at the club and look after yourself even better than you are away from club.
If we do that we can get better together. I’m yet to see whether they’ve dedicated themselves more because tonight put a lot of doubt in my mind about their dedication. Leeds didn’t only play us off the field, they ran us off the field.â€
It’s a huge blow when you see something like that happen to the team, particularly considering our position,†he continued. “You’ve got to dismiss that from your mind and you’ve got to be more determined and have more fight, produce more quality and try and get back in the game without conceding another goal.
“The one thing we have to stop is going a goal down and chasing the game, only this time we scored it for them. We failed to do that at every level tonight.
“There was grit and determination and quality defending we showed at Liverpool. We have a problem with the transition - the lack of transition quickly back into defensive unity meant that Leeds took full advantage.â€
Urgh - nothing about how we set up to defend for 90 minutes and we conceded possession to Leeds time and time again. That was nothing to do with fitness - that was all to do with having no outlet and everyone sitting on the edge of the box. He didn't complain about the fitness against Liverpool - they must have been on one hell of a bender the last couple of days.
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From BHAM MAIL
"They have to get stronger in the mind. If you do that it can make you run faster,†Allardyce explained. “If I was to get a gun out and point it to their heads and said ‘I’m going to shoot you’ they would run as fast as they possibly could.
“At the moment when I look at the fitness levels of us and Leeds there was a big difference. I could see it.
“The players have to realise – whatever they think they are is not enough, I said you must work harder at the club and look after yourself even better than you are away from club.
If we do that we can get better together. I’m yet to see whether they’ve dedicated themselves more because tonight put a lot of doubt in my mind about their dedication. Leeds didn’t only play us off the field, they ran us off the field.â€
It’s a huge blow when you see something like that happen to the team, particularly considering our position,†he continued. “You’ve got to dismiss that from your mind and you’ve got to be more determined and have more fight, produce more quality and try and get back in the game without conceding another goal.
“The one thing we have to stop is going a goal down and chasing the game, only this time we scored it for them. We failed to do that at every level tonight.
“There was grit and determination and quality defending we showed at Liverpool. We have a problem with the transition - the lack of transition quickly back into defensive unity meant that Leeds took full advantage.â€
I'm not particularly impressed with these comments as it ignores entirely his dog-awful defensive set-up that played straight into the hands of Leeds.
Further, anybody who has watched the odd Albion game from their sofa on sky over the last few years could tell you that Matt Phillips can barely run and is always knackered. Sam Allardyce after training for a week thinks it's okay to start him for 90 minutes twice in two days with Grosiki on the bench. Even Bilic only gave Matt the odd cameo role.
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Yeah, but we don't have them. So using defenders that can barely defend and an incredibly lightweight midfield to try and hold out for 90 minutes is never going to work. I can understand it - just - against Liverpool, but not against Villa and Leeds. Especially Leeds who had just a leaky a defence as we did.
Agree, thats why i think we will see more activity in Jan than most expected.
This period of games is purely for Allardyce to settle in and work out whos got some balls and who ain't. Those that aint will be bombed out and rightly so.
The club have shown they are happy to write off 4/5 game periods, the start of the season with no real striker for example. Villa and most of Jan is Sams bedding in and sussing out window IMO.
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Agree, thats why i think we will see more activity in Jan than most expected.
This period of games is purely for Allardyce to settle in and work out whos got some balls and who ain't. Those that aint will be bombed out and rightly so.
The club have shown they are happy to write off 4/5 game periods, the start of the season with no real striker for example. Villa and most of Jan is Sams bedding in and sussing out window IMO.
We don't have enough points on the board to be able to throw points away against teams we should be competing against though. And there's no point Sam spending cash in January once we're 9 pts adrift.
And let's face it, what is it about our board that anyone thinks they'll dip their hands in their pockets in Jan?
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BAggie82 and Boingingalong regarding your views on Sams tatctics currently i believe thats how he's going to set us up until he can get some of his players in.
Try and keep it 0-0 until the 2nd half and then become open like against Liverpool. He clearly knows these guys cant play his way so before hanging them out to dry hes going to persevere for a few weeks.
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BAggie82 and Boingingalong regarding your views on Sams tatctics currently i believe thats how he's going to set us up until he can get some of his players in.
Try and keep it 0-0 until the 2nd half and then become open like against Liverpool. He clearly knows these guys cant play his way so before hanging them out to dry hes going to persevere for a few weeks.
But why not use tactics that suits the players? People were quick to slate Bilic for putting square pegs into round holes - but that was mainly looking for a solution. Here we're doing it with the entire team because the manager is such a dinosaur that he can't adapt. And unless he's going to bringing in 5 or 6 players - we're still not going to have the team required.
Periera is our most talented player yet that way we set up would make him absolutely pointless. Same as Diangana, easy to say he's playing badly, but he's spending all his time 40 yards from his own goal, not 40 yards from the opposition's.
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We don't have enough points on the board to be able to throw points away against teams we should be competing against though. And there's no point Sam spending cash in January once we're 9 pts adrift.
And let's face it, what is it about our board that anyone thinks they'll dip their hands in their pockets in Jan?
I agree about the throwing points away really but its a moot point really because the board did the same thing for Bilic to obsess over Grant for the first 4/5 games we chucked away. Also and this is the fault of the board they didnt want Bilic here but stuck with him out of convenience.
Also again it was ridiculous for the board to haggle over the Ferguson transfer last Jan and afterwards before tribunal for the sake of a million or 2 when we will now probably end up with less AND not had the cash we depserately needed. They are beyond useless.
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Stands out clear as day to me and has done since last Xmas. EFL teams would outlast us. Very poor indeed.
Our fitness levels have been nowhere near where they should be for some time now. Still can’t believe how exhausted we looked upon the restart in June 2020.
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But why not use tactics that suits the players? People were quick to slate Bilic for putting square pegs into round holes - but that was mainly looking for a solution. Here we're doing it with the entire team because the manager is such a dinosaur that he can't adapt. And unless he's going to bringing in 5 or 6 players - we're still not going to have the team required.
Periera is our most talented player yet that way we set up would make him absolutely pointless. Same as Diangana, easy to say he's playing badly, but he's spending all his time 40 yards from his own goal, not 40 yards from the opposition's.
Because half our players don't suit his tactics. He's not going to come in and have us doing 37 lateral triangles from our penalty area to theirs. Never going to happen. He will stick to what he knows and thats what he was hired for. When managers come in players move on, fact of life sadly.
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Allardyce definitely got his team selection wrong tonight but who can legislate for one of the most bizarre own goals you would ever see and the envitable capitulation. Don't mind us setting up to keep the game tight especially with our record of conceding for fun.
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Yeah, but because we messed around at the start of the season (which I think was massively damaging as it's vital to get points on the board at the start), means we definitely shouldn't be messing around now.
Leeds had the joint leakiest defence in the league (with us) when we kicked off, yet we set up like we did against Liverpool.
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Our fitness levels have been nowhere near where they should be for some time now. Still can’t believe how exhausted we looked upon the restart in June 2020.
When we played that league 2 in the cup we could barely keep up with them. Unacceptable. Whether the fitness staff are hired directly by the club or by whoever the manager is they need replacing.
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Allardyce definitely got his team selection wrong tonight but who can legislate for one of the most bizarre own goals you would ever see and the enviable capitulation. Don't mind us setting up to keep the game tight especially with our record of conceding for fun.
We're conceding for fun when we're setting up to keep it tight.
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BAggie82 and Boingingalong regarding your views on Sams tatctics currently i believe thats how he's going to set us up until he can get some of his players in.
Try and keep it 0-0 until the 2nd half and then become open like against Liverpool. He clearly knows these guys cant play his way so before hanging them out to dry hes going to persevere for a few weeks.
He's doing that already.
Think we're going to see major ins & outs in January.
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BAggie82 and Boingingalong regarding your views on Sams tatctics currently i believe thats how he's going to set us up until he can get some of his players in.
Try and keep it 0-0 until the 2nd half and then become open like against Liverpool. He clearly knows these guys cant play his way so before hanging them out to dry hes going to persevere for a few weeks.
Totally agree.
But why not use tactics that suits the players? People were quick to slate Bilic for putting square pegs into round holes - but that was mainly looking for a solution. Here we're doing it with the entire team because the manager is such a dinosaur that he can't adapt. And unless he's going to bringing in 5 or 6 players - we're still not going to have the team required.
Periera is our most talented player yet that way we set up would make him absolutely pointless. Same as Diangana, easy to say he's playing badly, but he's spending all his time 40 yards from his own goal, not 40 yards from the opposition's.
The tactics that supposedly suit the players got the last manager the sack.
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Yeah, but because we messed around at the start of the season (which I think was massively damaging as it's vital to get points on the board at the start), means we definitely shouldn't be messing around now.
Leeds had the joint leakiest defence in the league (with us) when we kicked off, yet we set up like we did against Liverpool.
Because in open play we would never have kept up with Leeds. This was always going to be our most difficult game for me as it comes in the middle of the festive sandwich and we are not fit enough or professional enough although i didnt expect 5-0 i must say.
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BAggie82 and Boingingalong regarding your views on Sams tatctics currently i believe thats how he's going to set us up until he can get some of his players in.
Try and keep it 0-0 until the 2nd half and then become open like against Liverpool. He clearly knows these guys cant play his way so before hanging them out to dry hes going to persevere for a few weeks.
We haven't kept it 0-0 at half time in his first 3 matches. If he clearly knows these players can't play HIS way then it doesn't take a genius it work out out they can't play HIS current tactics either.
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He's doing that already.
Think we're going to see major ins & outs in January.
They deserve hanging out to dry after that. The players should make a public apology. Sawyers and Furlong were atrocious.
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Because half our players don't suit his tactics. He's not going to come in and have us doing 37 lateral triangles from our penalty area to theirs. Never going to happen. He will stick to what he knows and thats what he was hired for. When managers come in players move on, fact of life sadly.
Nobody is saying we should play like Barcelona. There's a massive gap between Barcelona and every man 40 yards from goal.
I feel sorry for Sam that your opinion of him seems to think that he can only play "park the bus tactics" and that's it. If that's true, then a) it's a massive mistake by the board as we don't have a squad that can do that, and b) I'd like him gone now thank you very much.
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Totally agree.
The tactics that supposedly suit the players got the last manager the sack.
Also got a better set of results than we're seeing now. Want me to list the stats from the last 3 games again?
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He's doing that already.
Think we're going to see major ins & outs in January.
Agree John. This will be more than a touch up. (One for the make-up artists out there). :D
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Our fitness levels have been nowhere near where they should be for some time now. Still can’t believe how exhausted we looked upon the restart in June 2020.
A few people seem to have this idea on the brain. I didn't see anyone complaining about poor fitness a few days ago when we drew away to Liverpool. Or when we drew away to Man City a couple of weeks ago. Have you looked up the stats for how much ground our guys covered in those matches?
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Also got a better set of results than we're seeing now. Want me to list the stats from the last 3 games again?
Not unless you really want to, do you want me to re-iterate the 10 days vs 500 days stat?
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Because in open play we would never have kept up with Leeds. This was always going to be our most difficult game for me as it comes in the middle of the festive sandwich and we are not fit enough or professional enough although i didnt expect 5-0 i must say.
See, I have more faith in these players. I refuse to believe that the only way to get the best out of this group is by getting every single player behind the ball. It's plain as day that it doesn't work - just look at the last 3 games.
Getting the point at Liverpool is clouding your judgement. If we played that game another 10 times we'd lose 10 times.
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He's doing that already.
Think we're going to see major ins & outs in January.
Do you really think we’ll see a number of Jan signings? That’s not the Baggies way. It usually takes an age to get even basic deals over the line. For me the most we’ll see will be a loan or two very late on in the window.
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See, I have more faith in these players. I refuse to believe that the only way to get the best out of this group is by getting every single player behind the ball. It's plain as day that it doesn't work - just look at the last 3 games.
Getting the point at Liverpool is clouding your judgement. If we played that game another 10 times we'd lose 10 times.
Not if there were 3 training sessions between each of the 10 games.
It's FAR too early to judge Big Sam.
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Not unless you really want to, do you want me to re-iterate the 10 days vs 500 days stat?
You're the one saying that the previous manager's tactics didn't work. I'm pointing out that they worked better, and suited the squad better, than the current manager's.
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They deserve hanging out to dry after that. The players should make a public apology. Sawyers and Furlong were atrocious.
You don't hang your players out to dry in public if you want them to play for you.
Pretty obvious to me he wants to move the majority of them on.
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A few people seem to have this idea on the brain. I didn't see anyone complaining about poor fitness a few days ago when we drew away to Liverpool. Or when we drew away to Man City a couple of weeks ago. Have you looked up the stats for how much ground our guys covered in those matches?
We did put in a fantastic effort against Liverpool but were shattered tonight. Leeds had as much rest as us but never stopped running. Lacking ability is one thing but to not be at the fitness levels required is completely unacceptable and avoidable.
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Not if there were 3 training sessions between each of the 10 games.
It's FAR too early to judge Big Sam.
I disagree - Liverpool will beat most of the teams in this league, let alone one as poor as ours. If you sit off and let a team like Liverpool have all the possession they'll punish 99 teams out of a 100.
I'm judging Sam off the first 3 games. He's set up like he said he would - we've parked the bus and it doesn't work we simply don't have the squad for it. How many times should we try the same tactic before we decide it's not working?
There isn't a single shred of optimism to be had from what we've seen so far - conceding 9 goals in 3 games, scoring 1. 10 shots for, 50 against. less than 30% possession.
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You're the one saying that the previous manager's tactics didn't work. I'm pointing out that they worked better, and suited the squad better, than the current manager's.
If we win the next ten games none will be better results than Sunday's. Bilić never got a better result than Sunday's.
The current manager has been in situ for 10 days, you are suggesting he should carry on playing the same way that got his predecessor sacked. Absolutely baffling standpoint at this stage of his tenure.
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Nobody is saying we should play like Barcelona. There's a massive gap between Barcelona and every man 40 yards from goal.
I feel sorry for Sam that your opinion of him seems to think that he can only play "park the bus tactics" and that's it. If that's true, then a) it's a massive mistake by the board as we don't have a squad that can do that, and b) I'd like him gone now thank you very much.
I think thats simplifying it slightly. He's trying do the best with what hes got. He's hoping to stop us getting cut adrift i guess until he can get 3/4 players in he wants. Damage limitation until transfers can be done.
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Do you really think we’ll see a number of Jan signings? That’s not the Baggies way. It usually takes an age to get even basic deals over the line. For me the most we’ll see will be a loan or two very late on in the window.
Look at my post 799
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You don't hang your players out to dry in public if you want them to play for you.
Pretty obvious to me he wants to move the majority of them on.
I would hope so! Half are gutless.
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You're the one saying that the previous manager's tactics didn't work. I'm pointing out that they worked better, and suited the squad better, than the current manager's.
And you are correct. The manager is the square peg that the board have tried to fit into a round hole. If they were absolutely convinced that they needed to sack Slaven, they needed to appoint someone who could get the best out of our current squad, not someone with a known style that is utterly unsuited to them.
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If we win the next ten games none will be better results than Sunday's. Bilić never got a better result than Sunday's.
The current manager has been in situ for 10 days, you are suggesting he should carry on playing the same way that got his predecessor sacked. Absolutely baffling standpoint at this stage of his tenure.
I'd cheer more for 3 points off anyone rather than 1 point off liverpool.
It's absurd to think 1 is better than 3 points in our current situation.
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A few people seem to have this idea on the brain. I didn't see anyone complaining about poor fitness a few days ago when we drew away to Liverpool. Or when we drew away to Man City a couple of weeks ago. Have you looked up the stats for how much ground our guys covered in those matches?
Honestly speaking Timdon, no I haven’t reviewed those stats from the two particular fixtures you’ve mentioned. I have, however, seen how weary and laboured we’ve looked for long periods of time during our past 27 games since Birmingham City at home on 20/06/2020.
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We're conceding for fun when we're setting up to keep it tight.
first goal again knocked the stuffing out of these weak minded players who are not up for fight. Says it all really when our best player by a country mile is a young loanee from Chelsea.
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Taking a team that likes to play football and asking them to set-up with a flat low block was always going to end in tears. It makes as much sense as taking our squad under Tony Pulis and asking Dawson and Co play pretty little triangles.
The only thing that has changed since Allardyce has come is that we are no longer playing to our limited strengths. Pereira on the bench would have been unthinkable. As would be the idea of replacing Matt Phillips for another centre back when 4-0 down.
What has been most disappointing so far is the employment of the same ultra defensive tactics against Villa, Liverpool and Leeds. I'm led to believe that Allardyce is more pragmatic etc but so far all we have seen is a primitive one trick pony method of trying to play football that the players hate.
I agree with all of that. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who still wanted Bilic to go after the Man City draw, who then were falling over each other to hail Allardyce as Corberan for the Liverpool result (when on another day we could have been 4-0 down at half-time in that game too) and, finally, who are now blaming the players, rather than the teflon-coated Allardyce, for tonight's worst performance for many years.
It was clear when the transfer window closed that the squad hadn't been strengthened enough to be able to compete in this league. It's not Bilic's fault that he wasn't given the tools with which to do the job. No-one objected to us signing Pereira and few complained about us signing Diangana. Both, at the time, were regarded as being excellent business despite it using up most of our paltry budget.
There was plenty to be dissatisfied about regarding Bilic's later tactics but, Man City apart, at least we made some attempt to have an attacking threat. So far, Allardyce has employed exactly the same approach as Pulis would have in every game so far. It should now be clear to him that this squad is even less capable of using his preferred tactic than it was for what Bilic tried.
Either Allardyce needs to change his approach or the Board needs to find a magic money tree to change more than half of the squad to try to mould it into Allardyce's Pulis-like vision that of putting out a side that tries to keep a clean sheet by defending its penalty area in numbers whilst hoping to nick one from a set piece at the other end. Allardyce has implied that he wants to sign players with plenty of Premier League experience. The only such players we're likely to be able to get are those who are the wrong side of 30. What will this leave us with for next season following what now looks like an inevitable relegation?
There's much criticism of the players' fitness this evening, but few are linking it to what would have been an unchanged side playing twice in 48 hours had Gibbs not suffered an almost predictable pre-match injury. Players' fitness can very easily be assessed outside matches, so it doesn't take a genius to realise that playing the same side again 48 hours later after the immense effort against Liverpool would be asking for trouble. Yet Allardyce did that, but people prefer to blame the players rather than him because it doesn't fit in with their currently baseless "Big Sam walks on water" mentality.
If this squad is good at anything at all, it's counter-attacking with pace, skill and purpose, which Leeds are employing to pretty good effect overall. If more than half the side can't be replaced, then it seems reasonable to give that appraoch another go and, perhaps, have your best player on the pitch in the middle, where he's most threatening, rather than leaving him on the bench and preferring the likes of Phillips to him.
Unless we want to keep being tonked every game, we're about to find out just how flexible Allardyce is with his tactical approach. The signs so far is that he's only going to play one way and it won't be pretty and will be even less effective than what Bilic was doing. Yet there are those who are keen to see him doing the same thing in the Championship next season, when we showed last season that you can get out of that league without having to employ increasingly discredited dinosaur football.
Ultimately however, only one thing will give our club any hope for the future, and that's for it to be sold, with all those currently involved at a high level on the non-playing side leaving (including Dowling). Hopefully they can be replaced by people who know about football, have vision and creativity, and can actually come up with a plan that befits this once proud club of ours that has, once again as it was when Pulis and Pardew were here, become a laughing stock.
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first goal again knocked the stuffing out of these weak minded players who are not up for fight. Says it all really when our best player by a country mile is a young loanee from Chelsea.
The exact same weak minded players who rolled over so timidly against the two top teams in the country in the last couple of weeks. ::)
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I think thats simplifying it slightly. He's trying do the best with what hes got. He's hoping to stop us getting cut adrift i guess until he can get 3/4 players in he wants. Damage limitation until transfers can be done.
He's not doing the best with what he's got though - what he's doing is actually the exact opposite!
He's doing whatever he feels like irrespective of 'what he's got' so you could say "he's doing the worst with what he's got"
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Don't mind us setting up to keep the game tight especially with our record of conceding for fun.
Have we not still conceded goals for fun in Allardyce's first 3 games, despite his neanderthal approach?
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Good post WorcsWBA - couldn't agree more.
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He's not doing the best with what he's got though - what he's doing is actually the exact opposite!
He's doing whatever he feels like irrespective of 'what he's got'.
Ok, he's doing the best with what hes got in the way he sets up or wants too setup. He will do whatever he likes because hes the manager.
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He's not doing the best with what he's got though - what he's doing is actually the exact opposite!
He's doing whatever he feels like irrespective of 'what he's got'.
We never looked like winning a game under the last bloke playing to their supposed strengths. The game we won was daylight robbery. Things had to change :-\
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I agree with all of that. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who still wanted Bilic to go after the Man City draw, who then were falling over each other to hail Allardyce as Corberan for the Liverpool result (when on another day we could have been 4-0 down at half-time in that game too) and, finally, who are now blaming the players, rather than the teflon-coated Allardyce, for tonight's worst performance for many years.
It was clear when the transfer window closed that the squad hadn't been strengthened enough to be able to compete in this league. It's not Bilic's fault that he wasn't given the tools with which to do the job. No-one objected to us signing Pereira and few complained about us signing Diangana. Both, at the time, were regarded as being excellent business despite it using up most of our paltry budget.
There was plenty to be dissatisfied about regarding Bilic's later tactics but, Man City apart, at least we made some attempt to have an attacking threat. So far, Allardyce has employed exactly the same approach as Pulis would have in every game so far. It should now be clear to him that this squad is even less capable of using his preferred tactic than it was for what Bilic tried.
Either Allardyce needs to change his approach or the Board needs to find a magic money tree to change more than half of the squad to try to mould it into Allardyce's Pulis-like vision that of putting out a side that tries to keep a clean sheet by defending its penalty area in numbers whilst hoping to nick one from a set piece at the other end. Allardyce has implied that he wants to sign players with plenty of Premier League experience. The only such players we're likely to be able to get are those who are the wrong side of 30. What will this leave us with for next season following what now looks like an inevitable relegation?
There's much criticism of the players' fitness this evening, but few are linking it to what would have been an unchanged side playing twice in 48 hours had Gibbs not suffered an almost predictable pre-match injury. Players' fitness can very easily be assessed outside matches, so it doesn't take a genius to realise that playing the same side again 48 hours later after the immense effort against Liverpool would be asking for trouble. Yet Allardyce did that, but people prefer to blame the players rather than him because it doesn't fit in with their currently baseless "Big Sam walks on water" mentality.
If this squad is good at anything at all, it's counter-attacking with pace, skill and purpose, which Leeds are employing to pretty good effect overall. If more than half the side can't be replaced, then it seems reasonable to give that appraoch another go and, perhaps, have your best player on the pitch in the middle, where he's most threatening, rather than leaving him on the bench and preferring the likes of Phillips to him.
Unless we want to keep being tonked every game, we're about to find out just how flexible Allardyce is with his tactical approach. The signs so far is that he's only going to play one way and it won't be pretty and will be even less effective than what Bilic was doing. Yet there are those who are keen to see him doing the same thing in the Championship next season, when we showed last season that you can get out of that league without having to employ increasingly discredited dinosaur football.
Ultimately however, only one thing will give our club any hope for the future, and that's for it to be sold, with all those currently involved at a high level on the non-playing side leaving (including Dowling). Hopefully they can be replaced by people who know about football, have vision and creativity, and can actually come up with a plan that befits this once proud club of ours that has, once again as it was when Pulis and Pardew were here, become a laughing stock.
The best and most sensible analysis of the night. Agree with everything you have written.
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Pretty obvious to me he wants to move the majority of them on.
Who's going to want them and, even if someone does, why would they be willing to go and earn less money?
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We never looked like winning a game under the last bloke playing to their supposed strengths. The game we won was daylight robbery. Things had to change :-\
Yep, it literally made zero sense to stick with Bilic. He wanted out. The board wanted him out. His results from Jan 2020 were unacceptable, even if we look at the EFL only.
The boards cowardice has led us to where we are today. Not a bloke whos been here 2 weeks.
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Damage limitation until transfers can be done.
Losing 3-0 to Villa and 5-0 to Leeds is damage limitation is it?
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And you are correct. The manager is the square peg that the board have tried to fit into a round hole. If they were absolutely convinced that they needed to sack Slaven, they needed to appoint someone who could get the best out of our current squad, not someone with a known style that is utterly unsuited to them.
100% correct, yet another example (as if 1 was required) of the ineptitude of our senior management.
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I agree with all of that. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who still wanted Bilic to go after the Man City draw, who then were falling over each other to hail Allardyce as Corberan for the Liverpool result (when on another day we could have been 4-0 down at half-time in that game too) and, finally, who are now blaming the players, rather than the teflon-coated Allardyce, for tonight's worst performance for many years.
It was clear when the transfer window closed that the squad hadn't been strengthened enough to be able to compete in this league. It's not Bilic's fault that he wasn't given the tools with which to do the job. No-one objected to us signing Pereira and few complained about us signing Diangana. Both, at the time, were regarded as being excellent business despite it using up most of our paltry budget.
There was plenty to be dissatisfied about regarding Bilic's later tactics but, Man City apart, at least we made some attempt to have an attacking threat. So far, Allardyce has employed exactly the same approach as Pulis would have in every game so far. It should now be clear to him that this squad is even less capable of using his preferred tactic than it was for what Bilic tried.
Either Allardyce needs to change his approach or the Board needs to find a magic money tree to change more than half of the squad to try to mould it into Allardyce's Pulis-like vision that of putting out a side that tries to keep a clean sheet by defending its penalty area in numbers whilst hoping to nick one from a set piece at the other end. Allardyce has implied that he wants to sign players with plenty of Premier League experience. The only such players we're likely to be able to get are those who are the wrong side of 30. What will this leave us with for next season following what now looks like an inevitable relegation?
There's much criticism of the players' fitness this evening, but few are linking it to what would have been an unchanged side playing twice in 48 hours had Gibbs not suffered an almost predictable pre-match injury. Players' fitness can very easily be assessed outside matches, so it doesn't take a genius to realise that playing the same side again 48 hours later after the immense effort against Liverpool would be asking for trouble. Yet Allardyce did that, but people prefer to blame the players rather than him because it doesn't fit in with their currently baseless "Big Sam walks on water" mentality.
If this squad is good at anything at all, it's counter-attacking with pace, skill and purpose, which Leeds are employing to pretty good effect overall. If more than half the side can't be replaced, then it seems reasonable to give that appraoch another go and, perhaps, have your best player on the pitch in the middle, where he's most threatening, rather than leaving him on the bench and preferring the likes of Phillips to him.
Unless we want to keep being tonked every game, we're about to find out just how flexible Allardyce is with his tactical approach. The signs so far is that he's only going to play one way and it won't be pretty and will be even less effective than what Bilic was doing. Yet there are those who are keen to see him doing the same thing in the Championship next season, when we showed last season that you can get out of that league without having to employ increasingly discredited dinosaur football.
Ultimately however, only one thing will give our club any hope for the future, and that's for it to be sold, with all those currently involved at a high level on the non-playing side leaving (including Dowling). Hopefully they can be replaced by people who know about football, have vision and creativity, and can actually come up with a plan that befits this once proud club of ours that has, once again as it was when Pulis and Pardew were here, become a laughing stock.
Fair play, we've all got an opinion but aside from the paragraph on Pereira and Diangana I couldn't disagree more.
Borderline rant and indicative you're unwilling to give the new manager a chance.
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Losing 3-0 to Villa and 5-0 to Leeds is damage limitation is it?
LIvermore sent off 30 mins in so to be expected. Tonight was awful but you cant plan for Sawyers and Furlong playing how they did and i always said this when Bilic was in charge in those kind of circumstances. They killed the game for us.
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I agree with all of that. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who still wanted Bilic to go after the Man City draw, who then were falling over each other to hail Allardyce as Corberan for the Liverpool result (when on another day we could have been 4-0 down at half-time in that game too) and, finally, who are now blaming the players, rather than the teflon-coated Allardyce, for tonight's worst performance for many years.
It was clear when the transfer window closed that the squad hadn't been strengthened enough to be able to compete in this league. It's not Bilic's fault that he wasn't given the tools with which to do the job. No-one objected to us signing Pereira and few complained about us signing Diangana. Both, at the time, were regarded as being excellent business despite it using up most of our paltry budget.
There was plenty to be dissatisfied about regarding Bilic's later tactics but, Man City apart, at least we made some attempt to have an attacking threat. So far, Allardyce has employed exactly the same approach as Pulis would have in every game so far. It should now be clear to him that this squad is even less capable of using his preferred tactic than it was for what Bilic tried.
Either Allardyce needs to change his approach or the Board needs to find a magic money tree to change more than half of the squad to try to mould it into Allardyce's Pulis-like vision that of putting out a side that tries to keep a clean sheet by defending its penalty area in numbers whilst hoping to nick one from a set piece at the other end. Allardyce has implied that he wants to sign players with plenty of Premier League experience. The only such players we're likely to be able to get are those who are the wrong side of 30. What will this leave us with for next season following what now looks like an inevitable relegation?
There's much criticism of the players' fitness this evening, but few are linking it to what would have been an unchanged side playing twice in 48 hours had Gibbs not suffered an almost predictable pre-match injury. Players' fitness can very easily be assessed outside matches, so it doesn't take a genius to realise that playing the same side again 48 hours later after the immense effort against Liverpool would be asking for trouble. Yet Allardyce did that, but people prefer to blame the players rather than him because it doesn't fit in with their currently baseless "Big Sam walks on water" mentality.
If this squad is good at anything at all, it's counter-attacking with pace, skill and purpose, which Leeds are employing to pretty good effect overall. If more than half the side can't be replaced, then it seems reasonable to give that appraoch another go and, perhaps, have your best player on the pitch in the middle, where he's most threatening, rather than leaving him on the bench and preferring the likes of Phillips to him.
Unless we want to keep being tonked every game, we're about to find out just how flexible Allardyce is with his tactical approach. The signs so far is that he's only going to play one way and it won't be pretty and will be even less effective than what Bilic was doing. Yet there are those who are keen to see him doing the same thing in the Championship next season, when we showed last season that you can get out of that league without having to employ increasingly discredited dinosaur football.
Ultimately however, only one thing will give our club any hope for the future, and that's for it to be sold, with all those currently involved at a high level on the non-playing side leaving (including Dowling). Hopefully they can be replaced by people who know about football, have vision and creativity, and can actually come up with a plan that befits this once proud club of ours that has, once again as it was when Pulis and Pardew were here, become a laughing stock.
This is a cracking post - lays out the very worrying position we find ourselves in for next season and beyond.
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It doesn't take a genius to work out that by reducing our possession of the football from 50% to 30% we would a) have more pressure on the defence & b) have less attacks on the opposition goal which exactly what Allardyce has managed to do.
WorcaWBA, Timdon and others are right; the change of manager to Allardyce has made things worse so far, not better.
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first goal again knocked the stuffing out of these weak minded players who are not up for fight. Says it all really when our best player by a country mile is a young loanee from Chelsea.
The best player we've had for 20 years has been on the subs bench last two games, if you want a p!ayer who can carry the ball into the oppositions half instead of aimless hoofing then it's baffling that Pereira isn't starting.
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Fair play, we've all got an opinion but aside from the paragraph on Pereira and Diangana I couldn't disagree more.
Unsurprising as I can't remember a single post of yours that I've agreed with.
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The best player we've had for 20 years has been on the subs bench last two games, if you want a p!ayer who can carry the ball into the oppositions half instead of aimless hoofing then it's baffling that Pereira isn't starting.
The failure to play Pereira tonight is even more indefensible when you consider he was fresh, in a team that played two days ago and apparently had chronic fitness problems against the fittest side in the league! Tonight's performance and result was humiliating for Albion and for Allardyce. His first concern will be to try to protect his own reputation. The only person who came out of tonight with any credit was Bilic.
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Unsurprising as I can't remember a single post of yours that I've agreed with.
And yet I'd imagine we'd get on like a house on fire if we met in person 😂
Same goes for a few members.
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We never looked like winning a game under the last bloke playing to their supposed strengths. The game we won was daylight robbery. Things had to change :-\
We don't look like winning a game now. In fact, we look even further away seeing as we can't even get the ball into the oppositions half.
It seems pretty logical to me. If you don't play to the squads strengths then you're not going to get the best results out of them. That has to be true by definition.
You seem to think that any change has to be better - that's clearly not the case. 9 goals conceded and barely an effort on goal proves that. You think losing 5-0 at home to a team like Leeds while not offering a threat is an improvement on Bilic's results?
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We don't look like winning a game now. In fact, we look even further away seeing as we can't even get the ball into the oppositions half.
It seems pretty logical to me. If you don't play to the squads strengths then you're not going to get the best results out of them. That has to be true by definition.
You seem to think that any change has to be better - that's clearly not the case. 9 goals conceded and barely an effort on goal proves that. You think losing 5-0 at home to a team like Leeds while not offering a threat is an improvement on Bilic's results?
No we were poor tonight. But it's bigger than the bloke who's had 10 days to work with them and a period of games I expected 0 points under Slav.
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LIvermore sent off 30 mins in so to be expected. Tonight was awful but you cant plan for Sawyers and Furlong playing how they did and i always said this when Bilic was in charge in those kind of circumstances. They killed the game for us.
We didn't offer any kind of threat in any of the games so far. These haven't been "ooh, a bit unlucky" results - they've been "completely outplayed and not laid a glove on them" performances. And it's absolutely not surprise when you try and park the bus for 90 minutes that teams with quality players can score goals.
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Who's going to want them and, even if someone does, why would they be willing to go and earn less money?
Can't disagree, but if my coach had hung me out to dry in public, I think I would have been looking for another club.
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No we were poor tonight. But it's bigger than the bloke who's had 10 days to work with them and a period of games I expected 0 points under Slav.
I'd agree if there were any positives at all but there haven't been any. We're using tactics clearly not suited to the team and getting the performances you'd expect. We don't know what Bilic would have got, or what another manager would have got, what we do know is we've had 3 games now where we've been outplayed massively and not even looked a remote threat.
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The best player we've had for 20 years has been on the subs bench last two games, if you want a p!ayer who can carry the ball into the oppositions half instead of aimless hoofing then it's baffling that Pereira isn't starting.
That is indeed mind boggling. And he should have been extra fit from only playing 30 mins on Sunday. As it is, he looked lost when he eventually came on. He seemed to be playing up front for which he is totally unsuited. It looks like his skills are just being ignored. His game is based on getting on the ball in the middle and setting up attacks with clever passes. Him and Krov buzzing was this team at its best.
I do have some sympathy for Sam in that there weren't any other alternatives for Grant, but Pereira should have been involved from the start.
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We didn't offer any kind of threat in any of the games so far. These haven't been "ooh, a bit unlucky" results - they've been "completely outplayed and not laid a glove on them" performances. And it's absolutely not surprise when you try and park the bus for 90 minutes that teams with quality players can score goals.
No we fully deserved a point against one of the top 3 teams in the world at their place and ended their ridiculously good winning streak.
Villa game we started poor but then good ole nobby got himself sent off with 2/3rds of the game remaining.
Tonight was appalling granted. Everyone looked exhausted because they were because they are not fit enough. If he changed the XI though and we lost then Allardyce would have been beaten with the "Why change the team after a great result" stick till he was dead.
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What was the Phillips- Ivanovic sub in aid of?
Says it all about Allardyce when you play the last 30 minutes of a game without a recognised striker on the pitch.
Zero ambition from start to finish to win the game.
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What was the Phillips- Ivanovic sub in aid of?
Says it all about Allardyce when you play the last 30 minutes of a game without a recognised striker on the pitch.
Zero ambition from start to finish to win the game.
I assume Ivanovic was sent on to make sure the game didnt end 0-8
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What was the Phillips- Ivanovic sub in aid of?
Says it all about Allardyce when you play the last 30 minutes of a game without a recognised striker on the pitch.
Zero ambition from start to finish to win the game.
A desperate move and early sign of madness. All out defence had resulted in a thrashing, the management response? Bring on another centre back of course. Jacko has a reasonable point that Allardyce has only had 10 days but the changes he had made so far have damaged the team. I can forgive him for not improving us but to get us playing this badly and illogically, he deserves criticism. His all out attack on the players in the press also bodes badly for the future. He admitted himself he is not sure who we can bring in, in January. The core of his team will have to be from this squad.
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I assume Ivanovic was sent on to make sure the game didnt end 0-8
This.
At 4-0 down we're getting nothing out of the game, it's damage limitation.
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There is no way Allardyce is getting a whole new squad in January he will get 4 additions at most (I hope he gets none but that's different issue) so he has to work with what he has got and there is the small matter of 5 league games between now and the end of January. If we lose all 5 it will seal our fate before any new players have any sort of impact.
As it stands the ham fisted attempt at keeping us up is going to do more damage than had we just let the season bleed out under Bilic.
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There is no way Allardyce is getting a whole new squad in January he will get 4 additions at most (I hope he gets none but that's different issue) so he has to work with what he has got and there is the small matter of 5 league games between now and the end of January. If we lose all 5 it will seal our fate before any new players have any sort of impact.
As it stands the ham fisted attempt at keeping us up is going to do more damage than had we just let the season bleed out under Bilic.
Should have spent nothing apart from what we were obliged too and gone down with the money for next year.
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I agree with all of that. I'm trying to understand the mindset of those who still wanted Bilic to go after the Man City draw, who then were falling over each other to hail Allardyce as Corberan for the Liverpool result (when on another day we could have been 4-0 down at half-time in that game too) and, finally, who are now blaming the players, rather than the teflon-coated Allardyce, for tonight's worst performance for many years.
It was clear when the transfer window closed that the squad hadn't been strengthened enough to be able to compete in this league. It's not Bilic's fault that he wasn't given the tools with which to do the job. No-one objected to us signing Pereira and few complained about us signing Diangana. Both, at the time, were regarded as being excellent business despite it using up most of our paltry budget.
There was plenty to be dissatisfied about regarding Bilic's later tactics but, Man City apart, at least we made some attempt to have an attacking threat. So far, Allardyce has employed exactly the same approach as Pulis would have in every game so far. It should now be clear to him that this squad is even less capable of using his preferred tactic than it was for what Bilic tried.
Either Allardyce needs to change his approach or the Board needs to find a magic money tree to change more than half of the squad to try to mould it into Allardyce's Pulis-like vision that of putting out a side that tries to keep a clean sheet by defending its penalty area in numbers whilst hoping to nick one from a set piece at the other end. Allardyce has implied that he wants to sign players with plenty of Premier League experience. The only such players we're likely to be able to get are those who are the wrong side of 30. What will this leave us with for next season following what now looks like an inevitable relegation?
There's much criticism of the players' fitness this evening, but few are linking it to what would have been an unchanged side playing twice in 48 hours had Gibbs not suffered an almost predictable pre-match injury. Players' fitness can very easily be assessed outside matches, so it doesn't take a genius to realise that playing the same side again 48 hours later after the immense effort against Liverpool would be asking for trouble. Yet Allardyce did that, but people prefer to blame the players rather than him because it doesn't fit in with their currently baseless "Big Sam walks on water" mentality.
If this squad is good at anything at all, it's counter-attacking with pace, skill and purpose, which Leeds are employing to pretty good effect overall. If more than half the side can't be replaced, then it seems reasonable to give that appraoch another go and, perhaps, have your best player on the pitch in the middle, where he's most threatening, rather than leaving him on the bench and preferring the likes of Phillips to him.
Unless we want to keep being tonked every game, we're about to find out just how flexible Allardyce is with his tactical approach. The signs so far is that he's only going to play one way and it won't be pretty and will be even less effective than what Bilic was doing. Yet there are those who are keen to see him doing the same thing in the Championship next season, when we showed last season that you can get out of that league without having to employ increasingly discredited dinosaur football.
Ultimately however, only one thing will give our club any hope for the future, and that's for it to be sold, with all those currently involved at a high level on the non-playing side leaving (including Dowling). Hopefully they can be replaced by people who know about football, have vision and creativity, and can actually come up with a plan that befits this once proud club of ours that has, once again as it was when Pulis and Pardew were here, become a laughing stock.
Absolutely spot on.
An excellent, sane, well thought out & entirely rational summary of our current messiah manager & club.
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A desperate move and early sign of madness. All out defence had resulted in a thrashing, the management response? Bring on another centre back of course. Jacko has a reasonable point that Allardyce has only had 10 days but the changes he had made so far have damaged the team. I can forgive him for not improving us but to get us playing this badly and illogically, he deserves criticism. His all out attack on the players in the press also bodes badly for the future. He admitted himself he is not sure who we can bring in, in January. The core of his team will have to be from this squad.
Yeah, I have the same concern. Some will probably say they need a kick up the backside, but attacking your own players in public before you have built any sort of relationship with them isn't great man management to say the least.
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Problem if and when we go down the club will want us to come straight back up again rather than let us try and build an identity, invest in youth and have a long term plan for success they will sack a manager if we arent top of the league like they did with Big Dave (although I agreed with his departure at the time) then if we do go up and are near the bottom again they will sack him and we will just round in circles again. As a supporter I'd have no problems with a few seasons in the championship building a team the club want instant success and an obsession at being in the premier league at all costs the problem is everybody else in the league is shopping at Harrods and we are shopping at Aldi
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There is no way Allardyce is getting a whole new squad in January he will get 4 additions at most (I hope he gets none but that's different issue) so he has to work with what he has got and there is the small matter of 5 league games between now and the end of January. If we lose all 5 it will seal our fate before any new players have any sort of impact.
As it stands the ham fisted attempt at keeping us up is going to do more damage than had we just let the season bleed out under Bilic.
abso kin lutely, I am off to bed dreading Sam being there tomorrow but also dreading him going because these idiots will be on the phone to Pulis !??!
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The best player we've had for 20 years has been on the subs bench last two games, if you want a p!ayer who can carry the ball into the oppositions half instead of aimless hoofing then it's baffling that Pereira isn't starting.
The best player we have & would easily get in the majority of other prem sides, (outside of the top 6 teams) Pereria is already worth way more than we paid for him, so in the absence of the owner pumping in some investment cash (I know how ridiculously unimaginable this is for us fans) or the club discovering a copse of magic money trees growing round the back of the training ground, I won’t be surprised if the club sell Pereria to raise funds for some pulis BS type of players.
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Regarding WorcsWBA’s post, I will say that I’m not sure about criticising BS for playing the same side. I understand player fitness and 2 games in 3 days, but Leeds played the same XI as the other day and ran us off the park.
The fitness of the players lies at the door of the previous regime.
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Regarding WorcsWBA’s post, I will say that I’m not sure about criticising BS for playing the same side. I understand player fitness and 2 games in 3 days, but Leeds played the same XI as the other day and ran us off the park.
The fitness of the players lies at the door of the previous regime.
the same physios and fitness team who were in place before SB and are still in place ! ? If SB had sacked them al after we lost the academy team to Vile and the medics to leicester ????
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The best player we have & would easily get in the majority of other prem sides, (outside of the top 6 teams) Pereria is already worth way more than we paid for him, so in the absence of the owner pumping in some investment cash (I know how ridiculously unimaginable this is for us fans) or the club discovering a copse of magic money trees growing round the back of the training ground, I won’t be surprised if the club sell Pereria to raise funds for some pulis Allardyce type of players.
The only chance of success is to bring in quality players to play alongside Pereira. If you sell your best players you end up dropping down the leagues into the abyss.
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I’m not going to hang Allardyce out to during his second week with the club - this is a period with a high turn around of fixtures where there will be issues for any manager in putting ideas across.
He will have learned an awful lot tonight about which players have the metal and stomach for this division. What we saw tonight was a weak and feeble surrender from the same players who got their best mate and the greatest team spirit we’ve ever had the sack.
This side needs a minimum of four new additions - if we get them then we’re in with a chance. If we don’t then it will be a struggle as this lot are far too weak. Nor do I see alladyce staying around should we not give him some of what he wants.
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The only chance of success is to bring in quality players to play alongside Pereira. If you sell your best players you end up dropping down the leagues into the abyss.
Yes but he isn't actually playing Pereira is he? Makes perfect and logical sense to trade him for James Tomkins Troy Deeney and a KFC bargain bucket.
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Yes but he isn't actually playing Pereira is he? Makes perfect and logical sense to trade him for James Tomkins Troy Deeney and a KFC bargain bucket.
Pierra would have started against villa had he not stupidly been sent off
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Yes but he isn't actually playing Pereira is he? Makes perfect and logical sense to trade him for James Tomkins Troy Deeney and a KFC bargain bucket.
Stan please go to bed, you are seriously depressing me !
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Regarding WorcsWBA’s post, I will say that I’m not sure about criticising BS for playing the same side. I understand player fitness and 2 games in 3 days, but Leeds played the same XI as the other day and ran us off the park.
The fitness of the players lies at the door of the previous regime.
I see your point, but it's a lot easier to find energy when your team is completely on top and you don't have to worry about the opposition attacking at all.
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Yes but he isn't actually playing Pereira is he? Makes perfect and logical sense to trade him for James Tomkins Troy Deeney and a KFC bargain bucket.
You're preaching to the converted. The last couple of weeks have been a disaster and the tactics if you can call them that were indefensible tonight. The attempt to apply a primitive Pulis style to a Bilic squad of players is madness. The players obviously hate it.
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Stan please go to bed, you are seriously depressing me !
Sorry gallows humour.
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Well just looking at his palace results in his first 8 games he only won 1 and got a couple of heavy defeats including a 4-0 home hammering by Sunderland then he got money to spend on January so we shall see what happens (he also lost by 6 goals to Everton 3 games into his Sunderland job)
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What's all this spending money in January? Surely the Arsenal match is last chance saloon. If we don't win we are going down for sure. Allardyce will have had 4 games and 75% of them home matches.
We have turned in 2 shocking performances and are averaging no more than 30% possession.
Allardyce is performing worse than Bilic. The idea of. A manager is to play a style to suit the players.
The only way to beat Arsenal is to reinstate Pereira. I'd suggest bringing in pacier players to go at them full pelt.
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What's all this spending money in January?
We’re assuming Allardyce has taken the role on the provision there will go some money to spend in January.
Money they would not trust Bilic with given their relationship and the fact he would not have been here beyond the summer.
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Please please Albion do not spend any money in January, its a lost cause. Lets keep the money and build with a young manager. i would of preferred to have kept Bilic and let him build like Norwich, but we made that choice. i do not want to see Allardyce anywhere near this club after this seaon
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We’re assuming Allardyce has taken the role on the provision there will go some money to spend in January.
Money they would not trust Bilic with given their relationship and the fact he would not have been here beyond the summer.
There is no evidence apart from wishful thinking that any serious money will be spent in January. I guess we have the Hegazi cash to reinvest.
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Is it too late to go back to Palace and try to sort a few so we can get some cash.
They've turned down cold hard cash when we had none to squabble over a million or so 12months or more later. I'm not sure they can see the ends of their noses let alone past them
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There is no evidence apart from wishful thinking that any serious money will be spent in January. I guess we have the Hegazi cash to reinvest.
Not serious money but based on this he’s expecting some tinkering in January
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2020/12/24/sam-allardyce-january-trading-crucial-to-west-brom-survival-hopes/
I do not think you give Allardyce the job and then do not provide him with the tools to do it properly
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Hegazi deal was worth 10m wasnt it? That was their justification anyways.
Loan out all the fringe players we can. Save the wages 8f we can't get fees.
Pray Austin goes for his US retirement. 70k per week saved.
Sell anyone we can for anything we can whose contracts are nearly up.
Get 2 decent loan players. Both must be fit and able to tackle to a reasonable level. Even at 50k PW wages at say 20 weeks that's only 2m combined.
Hope Ivanovich retires that's gotta be another 40k PW saved.
We essentially need to find another club with a board as useless as ours to give our dross deals like we would.
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Not serious money but based on this he’s expecting some tinkering in January
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2020/12/24/sam-allardyce-january-trading-crucial-to-west-brom-survival-hopes/
I do not think you give Allardyce the job and then do not provide him with the tools to do it properly
With our current owners & board, I think that’s exactly what they will be planning to do.
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At what point will you realise this group of players are garbage.
Garbage that drew with Man City, Chelsea and Liverpool , whilst outplaying Man Utd...
Now there are frailties, but this squad has enough to stay up....but what we need is a manager that can utilise the playing staff, not the man we have now....and even though I hate him, I’d still say it’s not fair on him, we are asking a butcher to cook a nice vegetarian meal ..
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Hegazi deal was worth 10m wasnt it? That was their justification anyways.
Loan out all the fringe players we can. Save the wages 8f we can't get fees.
Pray Austin goes for his US retirement. 70k per week saved.
Sell anyone we can for anything we can whose contracts are nearly up.
Get 2 decent loan players. Both must be fit and able to tackle to a reasonable level. Even at 50k PW wages at say 20 weeks that's only 2m combined.
Hope Ivanovich retires that's gotta be another 40k PW saved.
We essentially need to find another club with a board as useless as ours to give our dross deals like we would.
From memory Hegazi left on an initial loan with an obligation to buy in the summer. If so then I'd imagine monies raised by Hegazi towards January's window would amount to whatever his loan fee was, unless we spend in advance of whatever we're expecting to receive in the summer of course.
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I’m scratching my head to remember these swashbuckling Bilic style performances this season. The best 2 performances of this season were gritty backs to the wall draws at City and Liverpool. I admit we have been terrible against Villa and Leeds but let’s not pretend Fulham away, Southampton away, Newcastle away and Palace at home were somehow great footballing displays.
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I’m scratching my head to remember these swashbuckling Bilic style performances this season. The best 2 performances of this season were gritty backs to the wall draws at City and Liverpool. I admit we have been terrible against Villa and Leeds but let’s not pretend Fulham away, Southampton away, Newcastle away and Palace at home were somehow great footballing displays.
We did manage to nullify the then hardly scoring Burnley to only two or three guilt edged chances they really should have taken, and force the hapless in front of goal Sheffield United to a nil though. Clear pluses.
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We need to grab a clutch of players who know how to play at this top level. They don’t need to be flashy, but some effective centre halves and centre mids, along with a striker who knows how to hold up the ball and win us free kicks to begin moving further up the pitch to take advantage of Sam’s “pragmatic†style.
I’m not Allardyces biggest fan but he’s not as extreme as Pulis. Best way I can describe it is he’s playing for 1-0 whereas i actually felt Pulis was aiming for a perfect 0-0, he was truly bizarre.
Whether we like it or not, he is right when he talks about understanding the shape to revert to without the ball. The problem is that Ajayi, Furlong, Sawyers are woefully exposed at this level when it comes to being tight and doing the ugly things well. Sawyers in fact is the most ill-equipped EPL player I’ve ever seen simply because he lacks the attitude, desire, and willingness to accept that as much success comes in this league through the ugly hard working side as it does a telling pass (which I’d argue he doesn’t really have that in his locker tbh).
He’s got the best out of Djorakeff, Okocha, Campo, Anelka but for them to shine he needed a Nolan, Davies, and a Jaskalaainen so we need to add a steely core and a sprinkle of magic in January.
If we were to pick up something along the lines of Deeney, Capoue, Tomkins to bring that physical threat right through the spine of the team, that would be the sort of starting point for January IMO, and then any further bits of quality/depth in those areas would be a huge plus.
Bottom line is address that core and go and get what Sam needs or accept relegation and plan for a rebuild with a long term vision/manager.
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We need to grab a clutch of players who know how to play at this top level. They don’t need to be flashy, but some effective centre halves and centre mids, along with a striker who knows how to hold up the ball and win us free kicks to begin moving further up the pitch to take advantage of Sam’s “pragmatic†style.
I’m not Allardyces biggest fan but he’s not as extreme as Pulis. Best way I can describe it is he’s playing for 1-0 whereas i actually felt Pulis was aiming for a perfect 0-0, he was truly bizarre.
Whether we like it or not, he is right when he talks about understanding the shape to revert to without the ball. The problem is that Ajayi, Furlong, Sawyers are woefully exposed at this level when it comes to being tight and doing the ugly things well. Sawyers in fact is the most ill-equipped EPL player I’ve ever seen simply because he lacks the attitude, desire, and willingness to accept that as much success comes in this league through the ugly hard working side as it does a telling pass (which I’d argue he doesn’t really have that in his locker tbh).
He’s got the best out of Djorakeff, Okocha, Campo, Anelka but for them to shine he needed a Nolan, Davies, and a Jaskalaainen so we need to add a steely core and a sprinkle of magic in January.
If we were to pick up something along the lines of Deeney, Capoue, Tomkins to bring that physical threat right through the spine of the team, that would be the sort of starting point for January IMO, and then any further bits of quality/depth in those areas would be a huge plus.
Bottom line is address that core and go and get what Sam needs or accept relegation and plan for a rebuild with a long term vision/manager.
Troy Deeney, James Tomkins, they are rubbish. Etienne Vapour is 32.
We need legs in the midfield and quality to occupy the opposition in their own half, which is what Bilic was trying to do. How is having 30% possession improving the team? It's garbage.
There is nothing wrong with Ajayi and O'Shea. Why did Allardyce bring on Ivanovic for Phillips?
We need quality ball players like Leeds.
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It's already looking like we might have been better off sticking with Bilic and taking the relegation + parachute money like Norwich did.
Unless there is a plan beyond what we have seen so far, we are stuffed.
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It's already looking like we might have been better off sticking with Bilic and taking the relegation + parachute money like Norwich did.
Unless there is a plan beyond what we have seen so far, we are stuffed.
The relationship broke down between the board and Bilic so that is/was not even an option.
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I’ve been guilty of comparing Bilic against Allardyce with my clear preference being to have kept Bilic, and most definitely not to have appointed Allardyce.
However I suspect that with COVID it’s just as important that we stay up this season as it was that we got promoted last season. There is no doubt that Allardyce now needs to backed by the club in January as in my view their lack of backing to Bilic is the mean reason why we are where we are.
However with some equally shocking teams around us we are not cut adrift, so we can still get out of this, but that will only happen if the club brings in 4 or 5 players to help us stay in this league.
So I’m going to pack it in with my disappointment at losing Bilic and what feels like a depressing appointment in Allardyce. In the end we need to our club to continue to exist and the best way for it to do so is to stay in the league. It’s down to the club to back Allardyce and protect the value of the club for a future sale.
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We've seen glimpses of what we might be capable of, if only we weren't so fragile at the back and inept at pushing through mid-field.
Periera needs to be up front and starting pretty much every time. But we aren't going to get the best out of him, Robinson, Diangana or even Grant if they aren't being properly supported/ allowed to pay in place. I dearly hope we don't lose Gallagher next month.
If Sam is allowed to spend, I hope he shores up our defence and somehow finds us another Mulumbu and Yacob. Another Gera wouldn't go amiss, either.
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I'm 66 years old and afraid of catching Covid. Please can we have a winter break. Wasn't afraid of Covid when he was offered the job.
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He needs a couple of months before we can judge what impact he could make to this shambles, by that time even Sheffield United will be above us.
Bilic needed to go but, I'm starting to wish we'd have made him sit it out until the end of his contract. The issues off the pitch in terms of training, lack of discipline, poor fitness are not ones you tend to turn around mid-season. Allardyce is a big boy, he knew the deal and it seems he's already regretting taking the job.
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I really don't think his selection, tactics and subs are the problem. The team is deflated with the loss of Bilic and clearly not prepared to fight for the club let alone Allardyce. If you have a McInnes type player they will fight, its their nature and we have nothing like that. Allardyce has almost nothing to work with, not even one proper candidate for captain, the players are not fit enough and can't take pressure.
If Allardyce sticks with it this season, we're probably going to waste a lot of resources on short term recruitment, but this is sport and we must try! We need to acquire a captain (Fletcher type) to lead the team from central midfield as soon as the window is open and then build from there.
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I really don't think his selection, tactics and subs are the problem. The team is deflated with the loss of Bilic and clearly not prepared to fight for the club let alone Allardyce. If you have a McInnes type player they will fight, its their nature and we have nothing like that. Allardyce has almost nothing to work with, not even one proper candidate for captain, the players are not fit enough and can't take pressure.
If Allardyce sticks with it this season, we're probably going to waste a lot of resources on short term recruitment, but this is sport and we must try! We need to acquire a captain (Fletcher type) to lead the team from central midfield as soon as the window is open and then build from there.
We have regressed to 30% possession and our most creative player has hardly played in the last 2 matches.
Maybe we can sign Roy Keane as captain.
Absolute shambles.
Unless Allardyce delivers a win v Arsenal then statistically he is behind Bilic in performance.
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Allardyce has 2 major problems . Firstly the squad isn’t good enough for this level .Secondly himself! He has been out of the Premier League about as long as we have ,in that time the likes of Klopp, Guardiola , Bielsa and others have massively changed the dynamics of the game and the way it’s played. Of managers of his ilk arguably only Moyes is doing better than ok .The likes of Pulis, Hughton , Bruce all coming under fire or worse. To this end Allardyce has to prove he can change his tried and trusted methods as in this day and age they will simply get blown away . Can he change ? Will he change ? Will his ego get in the way ?
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The relationship broke down between the board and Bilic so that is/was not even an option.
I heard that a fair bit bit, usually from the same posters who wanted Bilic sacked. All Bilic himself ever said was that he loved his job and the club. There was no reason at all that the board and the manager could not have agreed a new contract and path together in the summer.
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The owner, Dowling, Bilic and his coaching staff have left this club in a dire mess. Lai thought he could run the club from a far with no investment, panics when he realises he can't hence the Allardyce appointment. Dowling has to be spot on with his decisions when it comes to transfers which he hasn't, also player's should have been moved on once promoted. Slaven's style of play was too slow with lack of pace throughout the team, we had no control of midfield in numerous games under him with majority of passes going sideways or backwards. Our forward passes were usually coming from our centre halves just like in big Daves time.
Last night showed how criminally unfit his coaching staff left this team. Don't know if Allardyce can turn this around but who ever is in charge come summer things need to change.
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It was in the athletic.It all started to fall apart during the summer of 2019 when he first joined and Bilic wanted to quit in October 2020 when he had enough when the board sold Hegazi.
I don't blame Bilic for our board, it's all on them. I just don't understand why he didn't walk away earlier. They were never going to fully back him.
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The owner, Dowling, Bilic and his coaching staff have left this club in a dire mess. Lia thought he could run the club from a far with no investment, panics when he realises he can't hence the Allardyce appointment. Dowling has to be spot on with his decisions when it comes to transfers which he hasn't, also player's should have been moved on once promoted. Slaven's style of play was too slow with lack of pace throughout the team, we had no control of midfield in numerous games under him with majority of passes going sideways or backwards. Our forward passes were usually coming from our centre halves just like in big Daves time.
Last night showed how criminally unfit his coaching staff left this team. Don't know if Allardyce can turn this around but who ever is in charge come summer things need to change.
Your analysis of Bilic is completely wrong. We were close to 50% possession overall throughout the season. We were wrongly on 7pts from 13 games at time of dismissal. VAR robbed us of about another 6pts. So he should've been close to 1.00 point per game.
Bilic too slow playing through midfield? At least he has used a midfield, have you seen the last 3 games?
If Allardyce was wise he'd use the tools to his disposal and carry on in the same vein, then tweaking things after January recruitment.
As it is Burnley have blown us out of the water with their run of form basically consigning us to relegation.
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Your analysis of Bilic is completely wrong. We were close to 50% possession overall throughout the season. We were wrongly on 7pts from 13 games at time of dismissal. VAR robbed us of about another 6pts. So he should've been close to 1.00 point per game.
Bilic too slow playing through midfield? At least he has used a midfield, have you seen the last 3 games?
If Allardyce was wise he'd use the tools to his disposal and carry on in the same vein, then tweaking things after January recruitment.
As it is Burnley have blown us out of the water with their run of form basically consigning us to relegation.
you have your opinion I have mine, but if you suggest Burnleys form has consigned us to relagation I'm scratching my head.
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I really don't think his selection, tactics and subs are the problem. The team is deflated with the loss of Bilic and clearly not prepared to fight for the club let alone Allardyce. If you have a McInnes type player they will fight, its their nature and we have nothing like that. Allardyce has almost nothing to work with, not even one proper candidate for captain, the players are not fit enough and can't take pressure.
If Allardyce sticks with it this season, we're probably going to waste a lot of resources on short term recruitment, but this is sport and we must try! We need to acquire a captain (Fletcher type) to lead the team from central midfield as soon as the window is open and then build from there.
I think this is our only chance, bringing in a 6 month captain, but the odds are against it working so it will be wasted resources if it doesn't come off. I have no idea who it could be, but then I'd never thought of Kevin Campbell, so...
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It was in the athletic.It all started to fall apart during the summer of 2019 when he first joined and Bilic wanted to quit in October 2020 when he had enough when the board sold Hegazi.
I don't blame Bilic for our board, it's all on them. I just don't understand why he didn't walk away earlier. They were never going to fully back him.
In 2019 Mark Jenkins was praising Bilic in public for being the only manager he has worked with who thanked the board for their recruitment that summer. At the start of this summer in 2020 there was a lot of talk from Dowling about how excellent our setup and relationship was across the management team, to justify not replacing Mark Jenkins. I subscribe to the Athletic so I read the recent article outlining how Bilic wanted more backing this year and was upset with several decisions inclusion the sale of Hegazi. It got fractious and then calmed down. Not unusual in football and no reason why they couldn’t continue to work together next season. Bottom line is Bilic never walked and loved his job. The players were still fighting for him and look dejected at the sacking and events since.
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you have your opinion I have mine, but if you suggest Burnleys form has consigned us to relagation I'm scratching my head.
Look at the league table, we are at least already 80% relegated. If you could finished 19th and survive we’d have a chance.
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Just to remind you what Allardyce said about this after the game last night: "These lads are the fittest lads in the Premier League. They're the fittest at high intensity, they're the fittest at sprint distance and they're the fittest at overall distance run. They're better than any other team in the league".
Was he on about leeds?
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Was he on about leeds?
Yes.
Fittest side in the league and he played Matt Phillips twice in two days with Pereira on the bench, sums up that he doesn’t have a clue what he is doing and is learning on the job.
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......Last night showed how criminally unfit his coaching staff left this team.......
Small point. Bilic and his coaching team took care of coaching and selection. While they were free to pass on observations fitness is down to the Head of Sports Performance and Fitness. His name is Nick Davies and he's been with us since June 2018.
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To all intents and purposes the Chinese want to get out, they have probably needed to prove to potential buyers that whilst negotiations continue they are determined to stay in the Premier. So get rid of Bilic appoint someone who has never failed give him some cash in January and hopefully the price doesnt go down. I do believe they were touting us for sale last season but we were only Championship. Trouble is the difference between Allardyce is that he inherits a squad schooled by Bilic which is at the opposite ends of the football universe so its going to be a difficult for the players to adapt. Good shout he's asked for a Covid break as it would give him some valuable time. What happened to football is betrayal of everyone that has grown up supporting a local team.
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Yes.
Fittest side in the league and he played Matt Phillips twice in two days with Pereira on the bench, sums up that he doesn’t have a clue what he is doing and is learning on the job.
I thought Allardyce was referring to our players but, having watched the interview again, he was talking about Leeds so I've deleted both of my posts about this and apologise for my error.
I agree entirely with your other point too. Phillips quickly looks knackered when he comes on as sub, never mind starting 2 matches in 48 hours.
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If Allardyce can
1. be pragmatic and put round pegs in round holes,
2. get the defensive unit (5 not 9) sorted out,
3. get Sam Field sitting in front of the defence
then and only then can we have a minimal chance.
Furlong O'shea Ajayi Gibbs /Townsend (when is back?)
Field Gallagher
Robinson Periera Diangana
Grant
subs have to include Austin (god help us), Ivanovic (to be used only in event of injury) Krovinovic, Livermore, Grosicki, Button,
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In 2019 Mark Jenkins was praising Bilic in public for being the only manager he has worked with who thanked the board for their recruitment that summer. At the start of this summer in 2020 there was a lot of talk from Dowling about how excellent our setup and relationship was across the management team, to justify not replacing Mark Jenkins. I subscribe to the Athletic so I read the recent article outlining how Bilic wanted more backing this year and was upset with several decisions inclusion the sale of Hegazi. It got fractious and then calmed down. Not unusual in football and no reason why they couldn’t continue to work together next season. Bottom line is Bilic never walked and loved his job. The players were still fighting for him and look dejected at the sacking and events since.
They had been flogging the dead horse for a while and it tells in Bilic actions and words. The board will never say anything different.
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Big Sam wouldnt of been my choice of manager but i am a fan and i try to think about the future, the board dont, there sole aim is to make sure we are in the premier league so we can be sold for more money, Big Sam with his track record fits the bill.
I wont blame him if / when we go down either, he is 66 years of age, he has been a manager for over 20 years, you know how his teams play, so when you appoint him you know what you are getting, you need to give him the players to play his way.
At the moment we dont have enough players suited to his way, i would imagine he looked at the squad before he joined, did an assessment and had an idea what was needed to keep us in the league. He would then give the players 5-6 games to either prove him right or prove him wrong, Sam wont adapt to the players available, they will have to adapt to him.
He knows a way which keeps teams up and he isnt going to change now, him nor the board are thinking lets lay the foundations for a squad which will get better, they are thinking make sure we in the premier league at the end of the season, even if we drew 0-0 every game and didnt have a shot, if that got enough points they both would be happy.
The issue will come in January when Big Sam puts forward his demands, our board seem to say one thing and then change. Darren Moore was going to be give time to develop the team, bad spell - gone.
Dowling said we wasnt going to do a Norwich, we have done worse, at least Norwich were open about there plans, our fans might of been annoyed but Albion fans by and large are quite understanding, instead to be told would do one thing then throw just £25m at it (yes Bilic wasted some but he didnt have loads to play with anyway) and most of that was just to buy back what we had last season, Then we did struggle and Bilic is gone, for once the board should be honest.
Big Sam may of been promised say £20m to spend in January (to give an example) but i would not be shocked if when it comes to it its a lot less than that and based on past experience i would be shocked if we get what he wants.
It then comes down to by the end of the window, him assessing the squad available then and i think if he doesnt think he can keep them up, he will walk, he will only stay if thinks he has a chance of getting the £2m bonus at the end of the season, if not he will get some payoff for walking, going back to Talksport, then wait til this time next season and wait for a club in a similar position with his reputation of never been relegated from the premier league intact.
It may be me being cynical and hopefully the club prove me wrong, but i hear that much drivel and nonsense talk and then the actions say different, i dont hold much hope.
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Last night showed how criminally unfit his coaching staff left this team.
We do have a fitness coach (the name escapes me at the moment). Whether he came in with Bilic or not, if the fault lies in the players' fitness you'd expect him to be under pressure or even got rid of, so I do wonder what's going on. Part of me thinks it might be C***d related, in that perhaps the players can't be pushed so hard in training because they're playing so many matches and any extra stress on their bodies might break them, but I don't know.
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We do have a fitness coach (the name escapes me at the moment). Whether he came in with Bilic or not, if the fault lies in the players' fitness you'd expect him to be under pressure or even got rid of, so I do wonder what's going on. Part of me thinks it might be C***d related, in that perhaps the players can't be pushed so hard in training because they're playing so many matches and any extra stress on their bodies might break them, but I don't know.
The fitness coach/team/whatever need to go. I dont recall Bilic bringing his own (happy to be proved wrong) and Allardyce hasn't so they are the constant for me
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If we had an owner prepared to invest in the club even if we went down I’d give Sam £20-£25m to try and get the players in we need. As we don’t have that we need to scrap this season & start planning for a re-build in the summer that will mean Allardyce will walk so be it, there’s a 15% chance we stop up this year even with £20-£25m been spent looking at it from a calculated view there’s a better chance of us getting relegated & coming back up than stopping up this year. I don’t trust the hierarchy to make the right decision though we’l do the short term thing, get relegated and be stuck financially having not planned a thing to get us back up.
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At a minimum I'd expect our players to be able to get back into a defensive shape when we lose the ball no matter what part of pitch they are on. Leeds were able to get at our defence when ever they wanted and looking at lads it was like a well oiled super car against a crocked chopper. Fitness is an issue and needs addressing.
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he's asked for 2 weeks off... 2 months might do it
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At a minimum I'd expect our players to be able to get back into a defensive shape when we lose the ball no matter what part of pitch they are on. Leeds were able to get at our defence when ever they wanted and looking at lads it was like a well oiled super car against a crocked chopper. Fitness is an issue and needs addressing.
I don't buy this "the team weren't getting back into defensive shape". We barely got out of our own half in any of the 3 games.
Half the problem with "fitness" is that we've not had any respite in any of the 3 matches. It's wave after wave of attack we're having to defend against. The players aren't constantly chasing the opposition down, then on the rare occasions we get the ball it's a 40 yard sprint after it. Then it comes back and we start again. Teams that do a lot of closing down tend to be the ones that do the most running.
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Big Sam wouldnt of been my choice of manager but i am a fan and i try to think about the future, the board dont, there sole aim is to make sure we are in the premier league so we can be sold for more money, Big Sam with his track record fits the bill.
I wont blame him if / when we go down either, he is 66 years of age, he has been a manager for over 20 years, you know how his teams play, so when you appoint him you know what you are getting, you need to give him the players to play his way.
At the moment we dont have enough players suited to his way, i would imagine he looked at the squad before he joined, did an assessment and had an idea what was needed to keep us in the league. He would then give the players 5-6 games to either prove him right or prove him wrong, Sam wont adapt to the players available, they will have to adapt to him.
He knows a way which keeps teams up and he isnt going to change now, him nor the board are thinking lets lay the foundations for a squad which will get better, they are thinking make sure we in the premier league at the end of the season, even if we drew 0-0 every game and didnt have a shot, if that got enough points they both would be happy.
The issue will come in January when Big Sam puts forward his demands, our board seem to say one thing and then change. Darren Moore was going to be give time to develop the team, bad spell - gone.
Dowling said we wasnt going to do a Norwich, we have done worse, at least Norwich were open about there plans, our fans might of been annoyed but Albion fans by and large are quite understanding, instead to be told would do one thing then throw just £25m at it (yes Bilic wasted some but he didnt have loads to play with anyway) and most of that was just to buy back what we had last season, Then we did struggle and Bilic is gone, for once the board should be honest.
Big Sam may of been promised say £20m to spend in January (to give an example) but i would not be shocked if when it comes to it its a lot less than that and based on past experience i would be shocked if we get what he wants.
It then comes down to by the end of the window, him assessing the squad available then and i think if he doesnt think he can keep them up, he will walk, he will only stay if thinks he has a chance of getting the £2m bonus at the end of the season, if not he will get some payoff for walking, going back to Talksport, then wait til this time next season and wait for a club in a similar position with his reputation of never been relegated from the premier league intact.
It may be me being cynical and hopefully the club prove me wrong, but i hear that much drivel and nonsense talk and then the actions say different, i dont hold much hope.
I agree with this , and would add that his comments about his age and personal concerns about Covid-19,
were in line with thoughts of leaving already.
He has seen the team and assessed them and realises that whatever amount they promised him for recruitment will be not be enough ( and that is even if the amount materialises ).
I think he will wait until after the Blackpool match before leaving due to insufficient cash being available.
Lets face it £50m is not enough to cover recruitment required and he has probably been offered £25m at best.
I fully expect him to leave before we play the Dings.
Whatever happens and whoever is in charge please do not put that spineless bunch out against them.
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I agree with this , and would add that his comments about his age and personal concerns about Covid-19,
were in line with thoughts of leaving already.
He has seen the team and assessed them and realises that whatever amount they promised him for recruitment will be not be enough ( and that is even if the amount materialises ).
I think he will wait until after the Blackpool match before leaving due to insufficient cash being available.
Lets face it £50m is not enough to cover recruitment required and he has probably been offered £25m at best.
I fully expect him to leave before we play the Dings.
Whatever happens and whoever is in charge please do not put that spineless bunch out against them.
Don't get my hopes up.
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I'm interested to know where people think we've suddenly got £20-25m to spend in this window? If we had it in the summer, why was it held back then? If it was because they didn't trust Bilic with it, they should have sacked him then (which would be a bizarre act of course after we just won promotion). Holding it back for panic buys in the January window has effectively been a self-fulfilling prophecy, which our current position indicates.
If this money does exist then Allardyce needs it to be spent early in the window, not on deadline day by which time our situation could well be beyond redemption.
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If we do spend 20m it would be confirmation the board had little faith in Bilic. If you are wanting to get rid of somebody in the near future why would you fully back them?
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A few times I said I didn't see the point in sacking Bilic, because it didn't matter who was in charge, the team wasn't good enough. I think we're starting to see that now.
And that's not just Bilic fault btw; he bought in players who play the way he wanted to, any manager would. But not every transfer is his; Johnstone, Bartley, and others are left over from Big Dave, Zohore, Kipre, and others are Dowling projects. And then we've got the remnants of the Pulis era, such as Phillips and Robson-Kanu.
Whoever is in charge is going to be carrying the can for long-term problems, a transfer strategy as disjointed as the team looked last night.
And mental strength? Forget it. I've noted how every time there is pressure on an Albion team to deliver a result, they fold. And that's been over several years. Astle day, Cyrille day, others. No discipline and no willpower.
I will be surprised if it gets any better between now and the end of the season.
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I used £20m as an example, i dont know if its that but i would imagine the board have promised Allardyce a good budget else he wouldnt of come, and i think 2 or 3 good players including wages, etc wont be far off £20m.
However whether he actually is allowed to spend that when it comes to it is another thing, what the club say and do are very different things, its easy to make false promises and statements, actions are the proof but i do feel if they dont back him as they have promised to do, he will of walked by the end of january.
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At a minimum I'd expect our players to be able to get back into a defensive shape when we lose the ball no matter what part of pitch they are on. Leeds were able to get at our defence when ever they wanted and looking at lads it was like a well oiled super car against a crocked chopper. Fitness is an issue and needs addressing.
Most of our players spent the match stood inside out six yard box. They were in a lovely defensive shape! Watch the second Leeds goal again. Alioski was allowed to run onto the ball and strike it from 15 yards out without any Albion player near him. That wasn't because we'd been caught on the counter attack and our players were not goal side. Quite the opposite, we have waves of players behind the ball. All stood next to Sam Johnstone in the net. We were pathetically deep and negative to the point where is was suicidal as it allowed the Leeds full backs and wingers to partake in shooting practise inside and outside our box. Hence they scored 2/3 very similar goals from 20 yards. Fault for that dinosaur approach lies with the manager who asked the players to play against their limited strengths. Allardyce clearly hasn't got a clue about the squad and has been away from the premiership for too long to work out what is going on in the league.
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Found this elsewhere, so can’t vouch for the validity, but if it is accurate, then good on Sam
“So in response to questions today I've been informed from a lady at work whose family member works at the Albion and speaks to players/overhears some conversations and that it seems as that Allardyce is having a bit of a Megson kind of moment with the players which is causing some issues.
An example given to me today was that a player turned up 5 minutes late to training and that Sam has called him to the office and said he needs to be on time for training and if he doesn't like it he knows where the door is.
If this is the case then I fully support Sam in his efforts.
In my opinion its not asking much to turn up to training on time and I believe that attitude will filter through to the pitch.
We want or I want players that want to play for the club. Not players that think they are bigger or better than the club itself. Thry will come and go and the club will remain.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some players up for sale that we think we want to keep come January and this may provide a reason why if true.â€
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An example given to me today was that a player turned up 5 minutes late to training and that Sam has called him to the office and said he needs to be on time for training and if he doesn't like it he knows where the door is.
If this is the case then I fully support Sam in his efforts.
In my opinion its not asking much to turn up to training on time and I believe that attitude will filter through to the pitch.
Too bloody right - if ti's true.
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Good, get rid of them if they can't be professional. Wouldnt surprise me that what we see on the pitch is the same off it.
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Never ceases to amaze me how some people gobble up every little piece of tittle tattle from a friend of a friend who knows someone who works as a cleaner up the Albion, and then comments on it as if it has some credibility.
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I don't buy this "the team weren't getting back into defensive shape". We barely got out of our own half in any of the 3 games.
Half the problem with "fitness" is that we've not had any respite in any of the 3 matches. It's wave after wave of attack we're having to defend against. The players aren't constantly chasing the opposition down, then on the rare occasions we get the ball it's a 40 yard sprint after it. Then it comes back and we start again. Teams that do a lot of closing down tend to be the ones that do the most running.
But not a word about getting into an attacking shape.
Just getting 0-0's is not going to do it.
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Sam did make comments in the same interview after saying he can't work out why they can't be fluid. He said look at the Man City and Liverpool games, both deserved points. They stuck to the gameplans really well so it's not a fluke or one-off but he said when coming up against the lesser teams where they need to attack and defend in a more balanced style they seem unable to do it and he's trying to work out why that is.
This part of the interview was omitted from what i copied from the original article on the Bham Mail site. I found the interview in full elsewhere, i had no idea the Bham Mail had cut part of it out at the time i posted.
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Never ceases to amaze me how some people gobble up every little piece of tittle tattle from a friend of a friend who knows someone who works as a cleaner up the Albion, and then comments on it as if it has some credibility.
Normally I'd agree but I know where that came from and the person confirming it is very much ITK at the minute .
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Found this elsewhere, so can’t vouch for the validity, but if it is accurate, then good on Sam
“So in response to questions today I've been informed from a lady at work whose family member works at the Albion and speaks to players/overhears some conversations and that it seems as that Allardyce is having a bit of a Megson kind of moment with the players which is causing some issues.
An example given to me today was that a player turned up 5 minutes late to training and that Sam has called him to the office and said he needs to be on time for training and if he doesn't like it he knows where the door is.
If this is the case then I fully support Sam in his efforts.
In my opinion its not asking much to turn up to training on time and I believe that attitude will filter through to the pitch.
We want or I want players that want to play for the club. Not players that think they are bigger or better than the club itself. Thry will come and go and the club will remain.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some players up for sale that we think we want to keep come January and this may provide a reason why if true.â€
This piece was taken from a private page , I'll let it go for now and I've removed peoples names from it .
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This squad need to stop sulking and put their big boy pants on and fast.
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This squad need to stop sulking and put their big boy pants on and fast.
I think they have concrete pants on mate
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If I was in Allardyce's shoes, I'd be dead nervous going into this Arsenal game.
Everything is closing in, in terms of what he's here for - "keeping WBA as a Premier League club".
After this, there's a 2 week break going into the Dingles game. Everything is going to happen between 3 Jan and 16 Jan; League Position Review, Manager Transfer Window Budget, and the crux - does Allardyce truly believe he can keep us up?
3 points is huge, 1 or 0 points is dire in light of the above.
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If I was in Allardyce's shoes, I'd be dead nervous going into this Arsenal game.
Everything is closing in, in terms of what he's here for - "keeping WBA as a Premier League club".
After this, there's a 2 week break going into the Dingles game. Everything is going to happen between 3 Jan and 16 Jan; League Position Review, Manager Transfer Window Budget, and the crux - does Allardyce truly believe he can keep us up?
3 points is huge, 1 or 0 points is dire in light of the above.
I think he'll just be relieved to get it out of the way. The budget they've agreed won't change based on this one result.
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I don't buy this "the team weren't getting back into defensive shape". We barely got out of our own half in any of the 3 games.
Did you happen to see MoTD2? They showed the positions we were in defensively against L'pool and then Leeds, and how in the Leeds game we were too loose. Similar kind of shape but players just being somewhat out of position which left Leeds space to play into. Since they did it at Liverpool and didn't/couldn't in the next match it seems to me to be a lack of knowledge of the defensive part of the game, perhaps, combined with lack of concentration.
Where the lack of concentration came from I don't know. Fatigue can play a part in that, and I wouldn't discount it as a possibility. Whether that's physical fatigue, from having to play and train for two matches in three days, or mental fatigue from everything that's gone on lately, again I don't know.
Leeds had the same number of games in the same space of time we did, but they're flying at the moment, so morale will be high, they're playing a way that's familiar to them, and they haven't had a change in manager. I can't be sure, because I don't follow Leeds, but I think they've had a fairly settled team as well, with few enforced changes compared to us.
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It will be interesting to see what Sam does in the cup.
Last season Zohore scored winner in 3rd round and was dropped next match against same opponents.We then win another away match against Premiership opponents then throw all that effort in the bin by playing a weak team in the next match which was at home.
Our cup efforts in the League cup have been inexcusable so let us hope that Sam at least operates a professional system even if that does involve changes to protect players or develop younger players.
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It will be interesting to see what Sam does in the cup.
Last season Zohore scored winner in 3rd round and was dropped next match against same opponents.We then win another away match against Premiership opponents then throw all that effort in the bin by playing a weak team in the next match which was at home.
Our cup efforts in the League cup have been inexcusable so let us hope that Sam at least operates a professional system even if that does involve changes to protect players or develop younger players.
11 changes would be my guess. Currently it might work in our favour :-X
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11 changes would be my guess. Currently it might work in our favour :-X
Fairly sure Sam said the Blackpool game is a chance for squad players to impress, so I wouldn't be surprised with 11 changes.
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What a mistake Allardyce has made in coming to B71.
He is massively under the pump already.
Get these for the next 3 fixtures:
Dingles A
Hammers A
Man City H
Looking like 1 point from 7 league matches.
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Remember when the new manager bounce was a thing :)
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We don’t get a new manager bounce :(
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The bounce comes after the window guys... Chill ;D
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This team is about as far away from being able to play the Allardyce way as you could imagine. It's like appointing Pepe Mel to play pressing football with an ageing squad with no legs. The incompatibility between Allardyce's style of football and the make up of this squad is so obvious. It was doomed to failure from the outset.
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Unless he's brining in Harry Houdini, International Rescue and Jason Bourne i don't think we will improve too much.
Sakho, Tosun, Kevin Nolan, Andy Carroll and Ivan Campo better have improved since the last time we saw them :)
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What a mistake Allardyce has made in coming to B71.
He is massively under the pump already.
Get these for the next 3 fixtures:
Dingles A
Hammers A
Man City H
Looking like 1 point from 7 league matches.
He's made the mistake? Surely the club has appointing him. Yet another failed, short-term, short-sighted fix. For Allardyce, see Pardew or the strange Shan appointment. We just never learn.
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This team is about as far away from being able to play the Allardyce way as you could imagine. It's like appointing Pepe Mel to play pressing football with an ageing squad with no legs. The incompatibility between Allardyce's style of football and the make up of this squad is so obvious. It was doomed to failure from the outset.
Which makes the appointment totally stupid >:(
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I wonder if our owners, who know absolutely **** all about the game are starting to question Luke yet?
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I wonder if our owners, who know absolutely **** all about the game are starting to question Luke yet?
They don't know enough about the game to question him clearly.
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I’m glad to see Allardyce finds this funny as I don’t. Did I just see him laughing
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The cynic in me thinks Allardyce will be quietly pleased with the results in the last four games. It leaves no doubt in the minds (as narrow defeats would do) of football novice Ken how bad the squad is, but how well Sam can potentially do (Liverpool away). Don't get me wrong he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world.
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Can he just go now?
Unmitigated uninspired rubbish. PLEASE don't blame Bilic for the trite rubbish we've witnessed over the last four games. ONE point. Tons and tons of goals shipped.
THIS is the worst in years and years and years.
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I hope he’s gone in the morning for all our sakes
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The cynic in me thinks Allardyce will be quietly pleased with the results in the last four games. It leaves no doubt in the minds (as narrow defeats would do) of football novice Ken how bad the squad is, but how well Sam can potentially do (Liverpool away). Don't get me wrong he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world.
And yet you suggested any decent coach would keep this squad up, do you still believe that without additions in the transfer window?
Do you believe it is in our best interests to bring players in simply with a view to this season?
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The cynic in me thinks Allardyce will be quietly pleased with the results in the last four games. It leaves no doubt in the minds (as narrow defeats would do) of football novice Ken how bad the squad is, but how well Sam can potentially do (Liverpool away). Don't get me wrong he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world.
The even bigger cynic in me suggests Allardyce does not care either way he has £2m either as a bonus or a pay-offf when someone fires his sorry ass.
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The cynic in me thinks Allardyce will be quietly pleased with the results in the last four games. It leaves no doubt in the minds (as narrow defeats would do) of football novice Ken how bad the squad is, but how well Sam can potentially do (Liverpool away). Don't get me wrong he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world.
I really don't think that Big Sam is going to be too pleased to be managing a team that has got hammered in three home games and is cut adrift in the relegation zone with a meagre January budget. Worse, we are that far behind that evening attracting half decent players to sign is much more difficult. We are close the point of no return. So no point wasting any money this month. As Martin Keown has just summed it all up: "It's been a disaster".
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The cynic in me thinks Allardyce will be quietly pleased with the results in the last four games. It leaves no doubt in the minds (as narrow defeats would do) of football novice Ken how bad the squad is, but how well Sam can potentially do (Liverpool away). Don't get me wrong he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world.
I get what you’re saying but if that’s the case he should be sacked on the spot.
He’s had the opportunity to get points in 4 games. I expected him to set us up in a way that strangles the life out the game and bores us all to a 0-0. But I have no idea what his game plan is and whatever it is it’s failing to epic levels at the moment. The form under him is actually making us look worse than we are. It’s embarrassing.
Now the pundits are picking up on the fact that things have got worse under Allardyce.
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I really don't think that Big Sam is going to be too pleased to be managing a team that has got hammered in three home games and is cut adrift in the relegation zone with a meagre January budget. Worse, we are that far behind that evening attracting half decent players to sign is much more difficult. We are close the point of no return. So no point wasting any money this month. As Martin Keown has just summed it all up: "It's been a disaster".
Spot on.
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This team is about as far away from being able to play the Allardyce way as you could imagine. It's like appointing Pepe Mel to play pressing football with an ageing squad with no legs. The incompatibility between Allardyce's style of football and the make up of this squad is so obvious. It was doomed to failure from the outset.
Excellent post Nocky. I could not agree more.
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It's as if people don't read the posts before replying. :o
he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world
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After Bilic was sacked I jokingly said I'd sooner have boilerman than Allardyce in charge.
Doesn't look a bad idea now.
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It's as if people don't read the posts before replying. :o
he'd have preferred more points, but he won't think it's the end of the world
Is that you're caveat? I doubt any football fan disagrees with the idea that a manager on a disastrous run would prefer some results. Was was baffling was your suggestion that Big Sam would somehow be "quietly pleased" with the tonkings.
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Unless he's brining in Harry Houdini, International Rescue and Jason Bourne i don't think we will improve too much.
Sakho, Tosun, Kevin Nolan, Andy Carroll and Ivan Campo better have improved since the last time we saw them :)
funny that made me laugh well done ;)
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Hopefully he gives Ken a rollocking upstairs after the game and tells him to pull his finger out NOW. Need 2 new CBs, 1 DCM and a striker.
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At least Big Sam's post match interview should be interesting. 1/5 chance he quits live on air.
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At least Big Sam's post match interview should be interesting. 1/5 chance he quits live on air.
Windows open now mate. Depends if the board stick to their word but i wouldn't trust those fine gents in charge as far as i could throw them
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Hopefully he gives Ken a rollocking upstairs after the game and tells him to pull his finger out NOW. Need 2 new CBs, 1 DCM and a striker.
We need allot more than that.
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funny that made me laugh well done ;)
Thanks, it felt like therapy ;)
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Is that you're caveat? I doubt any football fan disagrees with the idea that a manager on a disastrous run would prefer some results. Was was baffling was your suggestion that Big Sam would somehow be "quietly pleased" with the tonkings.
Obviously after the event, your and other replies seem to be attributing my suggestion back to before the matches. After the event, when it can't be changed, it can only help with his transfer demands ???
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Hopefully he gives Ken a rollocking upstairs after the game and tells him to pull his finger out NOW. Need 2 new CBs, 1 DCM and a striker.
It's far too late mate. We are done, rigor mortis set in a while back. Allardyce told the board three weeks ago he could work with what he had subject to bringing a couple of signings in January. The board didn't appreciate Bilic's view that the squad was championship standard, hence Dowling made a big song and dance to the press that Big Sam believed in the squad. We don't have any real money to spend in January and no player in their right mind would be too interested in signing.
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We need allot more than that.
Besides periera we have nothing equipped for this level. Gallagher ain't ours. And whilst johnstone in a good vein of form I think add the crowd back and he will wilt back to how he was.
Time to plan for next year
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We need allot more than that.
We need that so we have some spine to the team, i'd say 20 of these players in this squad lack that.
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Hopefully he gives Ken a rollocking upstairs after the game and tells him to pull his finger out NOW. Need 2 new CBs, 1 DCM and a striker.
He won't and if he did hopefully Ken fires him. In no other profession would you put in the equivalent of 0-4, 0-5, 1:1 and 0:3 and bollock someone who could fire you. What planet does football exist on?
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It's far too late mate. We are done, rigor mortis set in a while back. Allardyce told the board three weeks ago he could work with what he had subject to bringing a couple of signings in January. The board didn't appreciate Bilic's view that the squad was championship standard, hence Dowling made a big song and dance to the press that Big Sam believed in the squad. We don't have any real money to spend in January and no player in their right mind would be too interested in signing.
Euros year 82. Who players would normally play for goes out the window when their squad place is up for grabs.
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Pardew was our worst coach but I don't remember him being batterd at home week in week out. Thought he would of at least managed to make us hard to beat.
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Time to go Sam. You have somehow managed to make us worse. If you go now you can still keep bragging about never being relegated.
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It's not Allardyce's fault in all fairness. He's inherited a dire, unbalanced, unfit squad full of ball to feet tippy tappy second rate footballers. There are hardly any players in the squad that would be his type of player. It's got worse before it gets better.
With new arrivals in the window I'm sure we will improve a bit but I don't think Sam is going to bring in enough players to make enough of a difference.
There has been talk of a defender, midfielder and forward targeted. That's not going to be enough.
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Euros year 82. Who players would normally play for goes out the window when their squad place is up for grabs.
More chance of England winning Euro 1982 this summer than Albion surviving. I have never seen a more relegated squad of players than this lot.
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Pardew was our worst coach but I don't remember him being batterd at home week in week out. Thought he would of at least managed to make us hard to beat.
TBF to both Bilic and Allardyce the squad Pardew had was far superior. He was just an awful choice. Even Darren Moore nearly saved us with the same players.
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Well they went as far as to bring him in , might as back him properly IMO . Even if its loans until the end of the season , these young lads / lack of experience are getting smashed confidence wise each week .
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Unless he's brining in Harry Houdini, International Rescue and Jason Bourne i don't think we will improve too much.
Sakho, Tosun, Kevin Nolan, Andy Carroll and Ivan Campo better have improved since the last time we saw them :)
I thank you for a much needed laugh. Can we get Alan from Thunderbird 5 on a Bosman?
P.S. it's taken me half an hour to post this.
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More chance of England winning Euro 1982 this summer than Albion surviving. I have never seen a more relegated squad of players than this lot.
Thats a different statement to me saying we will be able to get in better players on loan than we normally would tbf.
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Pardew was our worst coach but I don't remember him being batterd at home week in week out. Thought he would of at least managed to make us hard to beat.
You cannot compare those 2 squads. Pardew stands alone until he doesn't. Come back to us in Feb/March. If it's still like this I'll hold my hands up.
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It's not Allardyce's fault in all fairness. He's inherited a dire, unbalanced, unfit squad full of ball to feet tippy tappy second rate footballers. There are hardly any players in the squad that would be his type of player. It's got worse before it gets better. With new arrivals in the window I'm sure we will improve a bit but I don't think Sam is going to bring in enough players to make enough of a difference. There has been talk of a defender, midfielder and forward targeted. That's not going to be enough.
I agree with you that the team isn't good enough, no matter who is in charge. The massive disappointment is that Allardyce has somehow managed to make a poor team even worse.
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Sam take ya mask, gum and you're little Scouse mate and don't come back . In four games you've made one of the worst teams even worse . Scored one goal and hardly a single chance in the other three games .
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This is why i said rollock Ken, get him to get on the blower now. Mail saying we have been offered Choudhry on loan from Leicester as DCM. Streets ahead of Sawyers. Get him in.
PAOK want Krov, cancel his loan then if hes not going to play, sorry Krov but we have to suffer Sawyers week in, week out.
Despite the fact Dowling said he had a list of targets lined up for this season last season and knows what is needed we dont have time for the monitoring department to begin their process in time for signing them for the 24/25 season.
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This is why i said rollock Ken, get him to get on the blower now. Mail saying we have been offered Choudhry on loan from Leicester as DCM. Streets ahead of Sawyers. Get him in.
PAOK want Krov, cancel his loan then if hes not going to play, sorry Krov but we have to suffer Sawyers week in, week out.
Despite the fact Dowling said he had a list of targets lined up for this season last season and knows what is needed we dont have time for the monitoring department to begin their process in time for signing them for the 24/25 season.
Choudhary would be a big upgrade and we may as well send Krov back if he is not playing. If we needed 2/3 players we might be able to put a run together but when you need 6/7 to compete what is there left to say.
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This is why i said rollock Ken, get him to get on the blower now. Mail saying we have been offered Choudhry on loan from Leicester as DCM. Streets ahead of Sawyers. Get him in.
PAOK want Krov, cancel his loan then if hes not going to play, sorry Krov but we have to suffer Sawyers week in, week out.
Despite the fact Dowling said he had a list of targets lined up for this season last season and knows what is needed we dont have time for the monitoring department to begin their process in time for signing them for the 24/25 season.
Anything we do this transfer window should really only involve Dowling to guarantee the cheque. They all have to be 100% the manager's choices. One of the few things I do sympathise with Bilić about is the signing of players he didn't want.
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Lads, cut the swearing please, you have had enough warnings so no complaining when your posts get removed
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Anything we do this transfer window should really only involve Dowling to guarantee the cheque. They all have to be 100% the manager's choices. One of the few things I do sympathise with Bilić about is the signing of players he didn't want.
Total agreement but the board are so half-soaked about everything they won't have any urgency. Sam needs to drive that home tonight while Ken is there in person.
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Regardless of which division we find ourselves next season, I would be all for Big Sam still being our head coach
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Post match comments he thinks we need to defend deeper to cut out the sloppy mistakes! That is mental. Any deeper we wouldn't on the pitch. He genuinely thinks we got hammered because we "opened up". I don't see the point in keeping him in the job any longer.
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I'm still trying to work out the tactical genius (that a number of people still be enamoured by) which involves letting the opposition have as much of the ball as they'd like whilst we commit very few players forward, when it's obvious to everybody that this squad can't remotely hack a tactic all out defence. We've now conceded 13 goals in 4 games since Allardyce arrived and the side looks more clueless than ever.
Those who can't get on the pitch, whilst others who are pathetic every time they play continue to be picked week-in week-out (something that I was also critical of Bilic for), must feel that they've been very naughty indeed in a previous life.
Allardyce has shown no credible strategy or vision so far, and has made us even worse than we already did (as Pulis did at Sheff Wed). What an abysmal appointment by a board that doesn't have the slightest clue what it's doing.
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He'd be better off signing a couple of bricklayers, they'd be grafters, organised and an improvement on some of what we have now, plus they'd be able to brick up the goals as that's the only way it seems we're not going to concede!
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Its a dark time but this board always cheers me up. The diversity of opinion and the passion people have for the club is great. We love Albion but its only football.
I love the idea that Big Sam turned to the cone stacker and said "Right the plan here is to be so bad that the board will have to give us money for players. If we could try and lose 4 or 5 nill a couple of times that would be ideal..."
Little Sam "Right boss, thats a great idea, then we will be backed in the transfer market and we can bring in the quality needed to say up. Where's the list?"
But Boss this says "Phil Jones, Chenk Tosun and Lamine Kone...."
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He'd be better off signing a couple of bricklayers, they'd be grafters, organised and an improvement on some of what we have now, plus they'd be able to brick up the goals as that's the only way it seems we're not going to concede!
Maybe we can get Geoff Horsfield out of retirement then, he used to be a brickie.
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Suggestions from BT pundits that echo many comments on here. Team not set up for Allardyce style. They were working for Bilic but it looks like he may have already lost the dressing room. Hard to argue.
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Post match comments he thinks we need to defend deeper to cut out the sloppy mistakes! That is mental. Any deeper we wouldn't on the pitch. He genuinely thinks we got hammered because we "opened up".
Absoultely staggering. Why not just put as many players as possible on the goal-line and make them have to shoot above head height to score - perhaps we'll get away with just conceding a couple if they opposition leaves its shooting boots in the dressing room.
The sign of a truly great manager is to be able to adapt your team selection and tactics to get the best out of the squad at your disposal. Clearly this squad has few merits, but it wasn't conceding an average of 3 goals a game before Allardyce came and was generally having a much greater share of possession. It's not rocket science that the more your players have the ball, the less threat the opponents will pose.
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Everything I've thought since the match ended breaks the forum rules, so I'll just say that I'm not at all happy on so many levels.
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The bounce comes after the window guys... Chill ;D
You really are a pint (of whiskey) half full kind of guy aren't you?
:o
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Everything I've thought since the match ended breaks the forum rules, so I'll just say that I'm not at all happy on so many levels.
:D Plenty of gallows humour at the moment. I still can't work out how the team has disintegrated to this extent over the festive period, to the point whereby they no longer resemble a professional football team. It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall in the dressing room at the moment. Someone earlier joked that Boilerman should get the managers job. But in all seriousness how could Boilerman do a worst job?
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It's not Allardyce's fault in all fairness.
Comedy gold, sir. So explain how in four matches we have almost doubled our goal deficit.
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Suggestions from BT pundits that echo many comments on here. Team not set up for Allardyce style. They were working for Bilic but it looks like he may have already lost the dressing room. Hard to argue.
With his public condemnation of the players, it's absolutely certain he's lost the dressing room.
I'm just assuming he doesn't see a place for them & has an agreement with the board to move most of them on.
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Do you think the club will pull the plug especially after the club admitted they took too long last time to sack pardew.
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With his public condemnation of the players, it's absolutely certain he's lost the dressing room.
I'm just assuming he doesn't see a place for them & has an agreement with the board to move most of them on.
I think he will be given free reign to balance the squad as much as he can. Too many homely/comfort players in our squad.
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I think he will be given free reign to balance the squad as much as he can. Too many homely/comfort players in our squad.
He will need money though.
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The sort of players he wants to try to scrap for survival will be no use if we get relegated and will burn up what little cash we have. We'll end up with another collection of Zohore, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs on the books which will screw up the squad rebuild in the championship in the summer. I would only sanction loan moves.
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As said previous, i dont blame Big Sam.
He has been managing 30 odd years, he knows one way to play, he isnt going to change now. He would of been offered a good wage and bonus to take the job and keep us up, along with the promise of funds for new players.
The reality is the squad isnt suited to his style of play, majority of his teams that do the immediate job required are big, strong and fit, we have very few players like that, normally january is about topping up, i think we would need 6 or 7 players of his criteria to even have a chance and then they have to settle in and even so, i just dont see our board funding that many signings, i think he will of walked by end of january.
What does make it so odd is why the board have acted how they have! If they didnt like Bilic, get rid in the summer, get whoever they wanted then, after the first four games since then we had shown a number of games where we were at least competitive which with this squad was the best we could hope for, we took some points, we tightened up, we has a shocking 2nd half v Palace and a bad 1st half v Newcastle but overall there were signs we were getting to grips.
We then get a great point at Man City and that must of been such a confidence boost to the players and Bilic that the methods were starting to work and then a few hours later he is gone.
if Bilic wasnt their man, sack him preseason or if they were unsure about him, see how it went, if it was awful, get rid. instead we got rid when there were signs it was improving! And they got in a manager who is in no way suited to this squad!
There are obviously worrying signs now, it happened under Pardew when the players didnt play for him, its not right but it happens, a lot of these players know they arent Allardyces cup of tea and i think it shows, the only outcome for it to work under him is transform the personnel by signing near enough half a team who can come in and hit the ground running and i just dont see it happening.
I dont think we can judge him properly til he has been give the chance to get his own players in, i dont think that will happen or happen enough to keep us up but we shall see.
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He will need money though.
For sure. They have 2 loans to use. If PAOK taking Krov off us is true then i think we get our other international loan back so thats 3 loans. Shift on some tat.
I expect them to get 3 decent loans and 1 quality perm. Allardyce will be looking to push players on i'd imagine.
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'll post this quote from Sam Allardyce's post match press conference, because it gives us all some hope that at least he can see the big problem we have:
""What disappointed me was being in the game at 2-0 and then giving away a sloppy goal."
I'm sure none of us could disagree with that. It's so so important not to concede that 3rd goal.
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The sort of players he wants to try to scrap for survival will be no use if we get relegated and will burn up what little cash we have. We'll end up with another collection of Zohore, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs on the books which will screw up the squad rebuild in the championship in the summer. I would only sanction loan moves.
I wouldn’t sanction anything unless it was a long term view, anything else is a complete waste of limited funds.
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Do you think the club will pull the plug especially after the club admitted they took too long last time to sack pardew.
No this is wildly premature anything out of these 4 games was a bonus. It's always been about the window. He'll be disappointed he's not been able to get them more organised.
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'll post this quote from Sam Allardyce's post match press conference, because it gives us all some hope that at least he can see the big problem we have:
""What disappointed me was being in the game at 2-0 and then giving away a sloppy goal."
I'm sure none of us could disagree with that. It's so so important not to concede that 3rd goal.
I think he means we were playing much better from kickoff in the 2nd half then had the mad 3rd goal. A poor choice of words from him for sure though.
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'll post this quote from Sam Allardyce's post match press conference, because it gives us all some hope that at least he can see the big problem we have:
""What disappointed me was being in the game at 2-0 and then giving away a sloppy goal."
I'm sure none of us could disagree with that. It's so so important not to concede that 3rd goal.
Got it hand it to Sam he's as sharp as a tack when identifying the problems.
We just need to defend a bit deeper to only lose 0-2 rather than 0-4.
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I would only sanction loan moves.
Obviously makes things more difficult and can be money down the drain with loan fees but I'd generally follow this line of thinking unless there's a player of the right profile. A player of the right profile would not be injury prone and in their 30s for example.
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I wouldn’t sanction anything unless it was a long term view, anything else is a complete waste of limited funds.
No point signing players on long term contracts as Allardyce will be gone by the summer and a new manager in the championship will have a completely different set of views on what he wants. We'll end up with an Alex O'Neil, Lee Bowyer, Michael Appleton type. Someone who is grateful for the chance to manager us at that level. The merry-go-round will then continue, until they get sacked for not getting us into the top four and and on and on we shall go.
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The sort of players he wants to try to scrap for survival will be no use if we get relegated and will burn up what little cash we have. We'll end up with another collection of Zohore, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs on the books which will screw up the squad rebuild in the championship in the summer. I would only sanction loan moves.
So you accept, we have little cash, but have referred numerous times today to the £21m we spent being completely inadequate. So where were we supposed to get the additional money from last summer?
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'll post this quote from Sam Allardyce's post match press conference, because it gives us all some hope that at least he can see the big problem we have:
""What disappointed me was being in the game at 2-0 and then giving away a sloppy goal."
I'm sure none of us could disagree with that. It's so so important not to concede that 3rd goal.
Absolutely Timdon. Because we were all over them at 2-0... ;)
I particularly liked the bit where he suggested "if that goal stands and it's 2-1..." - i.e. that goal that was offside by 4 yards and would never have happened if assistant referees were actually allowed to raise their flag...
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So you accept, we have little cash, but have referred numerous times today to the £21m we spent being completely inadequate. So where were we supposed to get the additional money from last summer?
I've long banged the drum that we should have spent next season's parachute money on players like Anthony Robinson; we could have easily sold a few on in the summer to recoup money if we went down and needed the cash. As it was we have limited ourselves to this season's budget which is not enough. Short sighted of the board, as Bilic told them, if you wasn't to try to keep revenue of £100m a year it might make sense to spend a bit on the squad. This summer is when the team really needed a massive upgrade as well. One big upgrade this season and we could have been more conservative next season. Instead we choose the poundland strategy.
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Do you think the club will pull the plug especially after the club admitted they took too long last time to sack pardew.
I think it’s a possibility
Pullis got 10 games at Sheff weds, Allardyce as had 4 to make us look much worse, Pardew gets sacked weekly....seems there is a common theme 😀
Possibly the only thing that was for billic 100% was the team spirit, so I can see why they may have mostly decided they ain’t playing for Sam....I wouldn’t either.
If they do give him the chop.....there needs some real left field thinking for the replacement.
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I think it’s a possibility
Pullis got 10 games at Sheff weds, Allardyce as had 4 to make us look much worse, Pardew gets sacked weekly....seems there is a common theme 😀
Possibly the only thing that was for billic 100% was the team spirit, so I can see why they may have mostly decided they ain’t playing for Sam....I wouldn’t either.
If they do give him the chop.....there needs some real left field thinking for the replacement.
We may as well reappoint Bilic :D Mind you I'm not sure I could cope with the ensuing arguments on here after every week if that happened.
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No point signing players on long term contracts as Allardyce will be gone by the summer and a new manager in the championship will have a completely different set of views on what he wants. We'll end up with an Alex O'Neil, Lee Bowyer, Michael Appleton type. Someone who is grateful for the chance to manager us at that level. The merry-go-round will then continue, until they get sacked for not getting us into the top four and and on and on we shall go.
When I suggested a long term view I mean signing young up and coming players not the typical players Allardyce will want.
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When I suggested a long term view I mean signing young up and coming players not the typical players Allardyce will want.
I don't mind that but can't see how that works as Big Sam wouldn't want that profile of player in this window. He wants players in their 30s with premiership experience on massive wages with no resale value.
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I've long banged the drum that we should have spent next season's parachute money on players like Anthony Robinson; we could have easily sold a few on in the summer to recoup money if we went down and needed the cash. As it was we have limited ourselves to this season's budget which is not enough. Short sighted of the board, as Bilic told them, if you wasn't to try to keep revenue of £100m a year it might make sense to spend a bit on the squad. This summer is when the team really needed a massive upgrade as well. One big upgrade this season and we could have been more conservative next season. Instead we choose the poundland strategy.
So in the middle of a global pandemic, you gamble our future revenues?
I don’t think it was ever realistic they’d do that. If the money had been spent badly, and it’s hard to have confidence we would have been spent it well, that really could be a disaster that set us back decades.
At present as poor as this all is, we have every chance of being competitive next year.
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I don't mind that but can't see how that works as Big Sam wouldn't want that profile of player in this window. He wants players in their 30s with premiership experience on massive wages with no resale value.
Thats what gets the board excited for the last 5/6 years it seems.
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We may as well reappoint Bilic :D Mind you I'm not sure I could cope with the ensuing arguments on here after every week if that happened.
Ohhhhhhhhh. You actually said it. You are a brave boy !!
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So you accept, we have little cash, but have referred numerous times today to the £21m we spent being completely inadequate. So where were we supposed to get the additional money from last summer?
We didn't spend £21 million, it was more like £40 million.
Diangana & Grant together were over £30 million.
We've probably only paid £21 million from this seasons funds, but we still owe the other £19 million. Which is £19 million we won't have next season.
If we go into debt to buy players this month, we're on a slippery slope IMO.
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I don't mind that but can't see how that works as Big Sam wouldn't want that profile of player in this window. He wants players in their 30s with premiership experience on massive wages with no resale value.
Indeed, and that’s why he was the wrong appointment given our position.
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We may as well reappoint Bilic :D Mind you I'm not sure I could cope with the ensuing arguments on here after every week if that happened.
Is this the “Watford modelâ€?😀
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Is this the “Watford modelâ€?😀
;D
We can't be that far behind Watford in terms of barmy-ness surely.
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So in the middle of a global pandemic, you gamble our future revenues?
I don’t think it was ever realistic they’d do that. If the money had been spent badly, and it’s hard to have confidence we would have been spent it well, that really could be a disaster that set us back decades. At present as poor as this all is, we have every chance of being competitive next year.
It's a calculated risk not a gamble. The impact of the covid situation is that we have lost our gate and commercial revenue. We have our guaranteed TV revenue for the next three years so yes it would make sense to spend two thirds of that rather than one third this summer. By spreading our funds so thin we've actually wasted a lot of our budget. It's backfired completely.
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We didn't spend £21 million, it was more like £40 million. Diangana & Grant together were over £30 million. We've probably only paid £21 million from this seasons funds, but we still owe the other £19 million. Which is £19 million we won't have next season. If we go into debt to buy players this month, we're on a slippery slope IMO.
It was £21m spent this year. The rest is staggered over 4/5 years. It wasn't close to being enough. Just as clubs can mismanage by spending too much they can also be too short sighted and fail to invest enough at the right time; which is what we have done. That's clear now, the way the season has gone to hell.
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Well, I must say I expected Allardyce to make us harder to beat. I did not anticipate such towel waving under him.
These players are drained of any confidence and every mistake seems to be punished. Some of these players are not premier league footballers.
They have to back him during January otherwise it is a pointless exercise in appointing him. If they don’t back him then he will walk by March.
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As I posted earlier I not much on Allardyce as a person but to be fair our biggest weakness is midfield player wise , he's having to use Sawyers ( not a DM ) , Gallagher ( young ) and Phillips ( should have been bombed years ago ) although no excuse to make him captain . Add the less and less mobile Livermore to this , injured again Field and well I'm not even sure what Harper classes as these days .
Huge , huge issue and you can look at Dowling and co for handing out cushy contracts . Bilic gets some blame for me too for not addressing it either last season or this .
Knowing this board I don't hold out much hope but nobody could do anything with that , not even honest grafters like Gardner or Mclean in it as limited technically as they were.
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It's a calculated risk not a gamble. The impact of the covid situation is that we have lost our gate and commercial revenue. We have our guaranteed TV revenue for the next three years so yes it would make sense to spend two thirds of that rather than one third this summer. By spreading our funds so thin we've actually wasted a lot of our budget. It's backfired completely.
I think it is/was very difficult for anyone in any industry to predict exactly what the impact of COVID was going to be, so I don’t think we can blame the club for being cautious in that respect, what you would hope is that with all that in mind.....careful considerations were taken on ALL decisions..
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I think it is/was very difficult for anyone in any industry to predict exactly what the impact of COVID was going to be, so I don’t think we can blame the club for being cautious in that respect, what you would hope is that with all that in mind.....careful considerations were taken on ALL decisions..
The other option, was to admit that £21m upfront doesn't get us competitive and to take the Norwich approach of anything achieved this season is a massive bonus. Whereas our board wanted the best of both worlds and as is usually the case the manager then becomes the fall guy when "something needs to be done".
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I think it is/was very difficult for anyone in any industry to predict exactly what the impact of COVID was going to be, so I don’t think we can blame the club for being cautious in that respect, what you would hope is that with all that in mind.....careful considerations were taken on ALL decisions..
Most clubs though have undertook small risks and solidified their PL status as cash money is vital more than ever before this season kicked off. Looks like crowds will be back next August currently so their small risk has paid off massively and our top top board got it wrong AGAIN. Every flipping time. COVID only low-interest loans were offered to all PL clubs and now seemed the way to go to patch up current cash flows. Of course the risk adverse warriors in charge here would never consider it.
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It's a calculated risk not a gamble. The impact of the covid situation is that we have lost our gate and commercial revenue. We have our guaranteed TV revenue for the next three years so yes it would make sense to spend two thirds of that rather than one third this summer. By spreading our funds so thin we've actually wasted a lot of our budget. It's backfired completely.
If we are relegated as would still be something like an evens money chance then what exactly do we spend in years 2 and 3?
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We may as well reappoint Bilic :D
Nah, he's putting together the finance to buy the club from Lai to come back as owner-manager!
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Incredibly, I keep hearing the line “at least Allardyce now knows the challenge of what is ahead of him…â€
If he has half the footballing intelligence that he claims to have, then he would have known this before even considering taking this job, so repeatedly throwing this out as mitigation against yet another woeful performance is simply shameful.
Did anyone see his post-match interview? In line with his career-long modus operandi, Allardyce completely absolved himself of any responsibility and said “we are done playing their way now it's time to play my wayâ€. The suggestion was we played his way against Liverpool and Man City (!), and we played open like the players wanted to against Villa, Leeds and Arsenal.
This squad is not, and never was, good enough to take on the Prem. The players need motivation and direction, and I am looking for exhibit A that suggests Allardyce has given them either - we have looked like a team without a game plan and that is all on him. The only exception was the Liverpool game, which let’s be honest was essentially Bilic's plan from Man City and the players had already been drilled for it.
We haven’t looked this clueless & unmotivated since Pardew, and I think we should be very, very careful in bringing in a bunch of overpaid 30-something journeymen just to try and satisfy this manager’s ego. After all - should we go down we will be left with a nightmarish rebelling job and Allardyce will claim it is still someone else’s fault…
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Incredibly, I keep hearing the line “at least Allardyce now knows the challenge of what is ahead of him…â€
If he has half the footballing intelligence that he claims to have, then he would have known this before even considering taking this job, so repeatedly throwing this out as mitigation against yet another woeful performance is simply shameful.
Did anyone see his post-match interview? In line with his career-long modus operandi, Allardyce completely absolved himself of any responsibility and said “we are done playing their way now it's time to play my wayâ€. The suggestion was we played his way against Liverpool and Man City (!), and we played open like the players wanted to against Villa, Leeds and Arsenal.
This squad is not, and never was, good enough to take on the Prem. The players need motivation and direction, and I am looking for exhibit A that suggests Allardyce has given them either - we have looked like a team without a game plan and that is all on him. The only exception was the Liverpool game, which let’s be honest was essentially Bilic's plan from Man City and the players had already been drilled for it.
We haven’t looked this clueless & unmotivated since Pardew, and I think we should be very, very careful in bringing in a bunch of overpaid 30-something journeymen just to try and satisfy this manager’s ego. After all - should we go down we will be left with a nightmarish rebelling job and Allardyce will claim it is still someone else’s fault…
Blimey. Top posting, sir!
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Incredibly, I keep hearing the line “at least Allardyce now knows the challenge of what is ahead of him…â€
If he has half the footballing intelligence that he claims to have, then he would have known this before even considering taking this job, so repeatedly throwing this out as mitigation against yet another woeful performance is simply shameful.
Did anyone see his post-match interview? In line with his career-long modus operandi, Allardyce completely absolved himself of any responsibility and said “we are done playing their way now it's time to play my wayâ€. The suggestion was we played his way against Liverpool and Man City (!), and we played open like the players wanted to against Villa, Leeds and Arsenal.
This squad is not, and never was, good enough to take on the Prem. The players need motivation and direction, and I am looking for exhibit A that suggests Allardyce has given them either - we have looked like a team without a game plan and that is all on him. The only exception was the Liverpool game, which let’s be honest was essentially Bilic's plan from Man City and the players had already been drilled for it.
We haven’t looked this clueless & unmotivated since Pardew, and I think we should be very, very careful in bringing in a bunch of overpaid 30-something journeymen just to try and satisfy this manager’s ego. After all - should we go down we will be left with a nightmarish rebelling job and Allardyce will claim it is still someone else’s fault…
Good points.
Remember last time we thought Sturridge would be the answer
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Good points.
Remember last time we thought Sturridge would be the answer
TBF Sturridge was 50/50. If he stayed fit he would have scored enough to keep us up. His quality wasn't in doubt it was his body. A risk worth takig IMO on a short term deal, sadly he got crocked almost instantly ;D
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As I posted earlier I not much on Allardyce as a person but to be fair our biggest weakness is midfield player wise , he's having to use Sawyers ( not a DM ) , Gallagher ( young ) and Phillips ( should have been bombed years ago ) although no excuse to make him captain . Add the less and less mobile Livermore to this , injured again Field and well I'm not even sure what Harper classes as these days .
At the risk of being accused of wanting Grosicki's love child, I think that he would make a much better fist of playing in central midfield than Phillips. More obviously, he'd make a much better fist of playing in Diangana's position too, given that the latter has completely lost the plot weeks (if not months) ago and is still selected in virtually every game.
The bottom line is, if the side you're putting out is conceding 3 or 4 goals every game, there's nothing to lose by making major changes to the starting line-up. Just picking virtually the same side again for the next game is wilful negligence in my view.
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TBF Sturridge was 50/50. If he stayed fit he would have scored enough to keep us up. His quality wasn't in doubt it was his body. A risk worth takig IMO on a short term deal, sadly he got crocked almost instantly ;D
Fair points
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Incredibly, I keep hearing the line “at least Allardyce now knows the challenge of what is ahead of him…â€
If he has half the footballing intelligence that he claims to have, then he would have known this before even considering taking this job, so repeatedly throwing this out as mitigation against yet another woeful performance is simply shameful.
Exactly, I tip my hat to you.
Did anyone see his post-match interview? In line with his career-long modus operandi, Allardyce completely absolved himself of any responsibility and said “we are done playing their way now it's time to play my wayâ€. The suggestion was we played his way against Liverpool and Man City (!), and we played open like the players wanted to against Villa, Leeds and Arsenal.
We've played exactly the same way (stay deep, squander possession, pose a miniscule attacking threat) in every game he's taken charge of so far. It's farcical for Allardyce to suggest anything else.
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At the risk of being accused of wanting Grosicki's love child, I think that he would make a much better fist of playing in central midfield than Phillips. More obviously, he'd make a much better fist of playing in Diangana's position too, given that the latter has completely lost the plot weeks (if not months) ago and is still selected in virtually every game.
The bottom line is, if the side you're putting out is conceding 3 or 4 goals every game, there's nothing to lose by making major changes to the starting line-up. Just picking virtually the same side again for the next game is wilful negligence in my view.
I said the same Pre match , you don't get 70 odd games for Poland for no reason .
Im resigned to him being sold , I blame Bilic for being stubborn on that .
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I posted the comment below shortly after the Allardyce appointment - I now reckon my question of Allardyce getting the player support has been clearly answered - none, zilch, nought. What player would want to work for a dinosaur.
TheBaggieMan
Youth Baggie
Re: Sam Allardyce
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2020, 09:24:37 PM »
Question is, how will the players react?
Given their obvious fondness for Slav and the relationship they had, will heads have dropped that effects performance.
Allardyce, will never get as close to the team as Slav has over the last year and a half.
[/i]
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I posted the comment below shortly after the Allardyce appointment - I now reckon my question of Allardyce getting the player support has been clearly answered - none, zilch, nought. What player would want to work for a dinosaur.
TheBaggieMan
Youth Baggie
Re: Sam Allardyce
« Reply #104 on: December 16, 2020, 09:24:37 PM »
Question is, how will the players react?
Given their obvious fondness for Slav and the relationship they had, will heads have dropped that effects performance.
Allardyce, will never get as close to the team as Slav has over the last year and a half.
[/i]
Get rid of them then. They are doing nothing for WBA. If thats the case i'd hope they give their wages back.
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The bounce comes after the window guys... Chill ;D
You also predicted the vile wouldn’t get promoted, despite being well off the pace, not so long ago. They got promoted. My money is on relegation then. Cheers!!
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You also predicted the vile wouldn’t get promoted, despite being well off the pace, not so long ago. They got promoted. My money is on relegation then. Cheers!!
If only Grealish had missed one more game with that injury, or Gayle hadn't got himself sent off...
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I've long banged the drum that we should have spent next season's parachute money on players like Anthony Robinson; we could have easily sold a few on in the summer to recoup money if we went down and needed the cash. As it was we have limited ourselves to this season's budget which is not enough. Short sighted of the board, as Bilic told them, if you wasn't to try to keep revenue of £100m a year it might make sense to spend a bit on the squad. This summer is when the team really needed a massive upgrade as well. One big upgrade this season and we could have been more conservative next season. Instead we choose the poundland strategy.
Sorry - I would not have been in favour of gambling next year’s parachute money as you suggest. The risks of going down would still be too high. That’s the surest way of joining the many clubs of our size in the Championship who are now stuck there. I’d rather be a yo-yo club than a Middlesbrough or a QPR.
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If we are relegated as would still be something like an evens money chance then what exactly do we spend in years 2 and 3?
Exactly. There are posters on here who don’t seem to know the difference between expenditure and cash flow. Money can only be spent once.
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Do you think the club will pull the plug especially after the club admitted they took too long last time to sack pardew.
The board is totally different now
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The sort of players he wants to try to scrap for survival will be no use if we get relegated and will burn up what little cash we have. We'll end up with another collection of Zohore, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs on the books which will screw up the squad rebuild in the championship in the summer. I would only sanction loan moves.
We’ve only got one domestic loan and one foreign loan left to use (two foreign if we release Krovinovic)
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Sorry - I would not have been in favour of gambling next year’s parachute money as you suggest. The risks of going down would still be too high. That’s the surest way of joining the many clubs of our size in the Championship who are now stuck there. I’d rather be a yo-yo club than a Middlesbrough or a QPR.
No I don't agree as if you spend a bit on quality young players you can always sell one or two of them to get your money back, if you need it. We wouldn't play Anthony Robinson £50k a week despite his transfer fee being fixed at just £1.5m. He's now worth £15m easy and is storming the premiership. Exactly what we needed at left back. It's not even about going on a mad spending spree, there is a middle ground away from our poundland approach. Boro or QPR is exactly what we are heading towards - just another championship club; albeit without a benefactor or London pull.
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I didn't want billic to go but I accepted it. I was optimistic when he was appointed. 4 games later I am very pessimistic. Any form of attacking intent gone and defensively we look far worse.
Big sam with the pulis squad probably could have kept us up. This squad isn't too his style and his tactics haven't done well in his games in charge (with exception of Liverpool game). If he gets in 4 or 5 bodies in maybe he couldn't pull it off.
End of the day despite only having 8 points we are only 5 points from safety so it's still to play for but he would need been personnel.
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agree mate four games in 13 goals against, tactically naive. Blaming every one bar himself.
You don’t get to become England Manager by being tactically naive.
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You don’t get to become England Manager by being tactically naive.
McLaren..
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agree mate four games in 13 goals against, tactically naive. Blaming every one bar himself.
This is typical of the man . Get a good result and its 'we" or 'I" a poor result and its 'they' .Don't think it's ever been much different with him
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McLaren..
Different set of circumstances, he was embedded in the bricks and mortar of the national set up prior to getting that job. Allardyce wasn’t.
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You don’t get to become England Manager by being tactically naive.
Playing Matt Phillips in central midfield - to describe that as tactically naive would be too polite. It’s a shambles.
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You don’t get to become England Manager by being tactically naive.
May not be naivety but an unwillingness to accept just how much the game has changed in the time he's been out put alongside his stubbornness that his methods are still right. I have said before any slim chance depends on transfers and more importantly his ability to change , modify , adapt . I am not holding my breath
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The board is totally different now
With the exception of Dowling, there is exactly zero experience in our board of directors.
Jenkins is allegedly acting as advisor, but they can't be listening.
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regardless of your views on the man, can you please post without resorting to abuse. The rules are crystal clear folks. If it continues then members will be taking a 7 day break.
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I said the same Pre match , you don't get 70 odd games for Poland for no reason .
Im resigned to him being sold , I blame Bilic for being stubborn on that .
Not sure Bilic can be blamed for the current manager not picking a player?
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I hope we don't waste money on bringing in "his" players in. The truth is they aren't his players they are the club's players the club pay the fees and wages and will carry on doing so for years after Allardyce has gone.
Livermore, Gibbs and Robson-Kanu are Pulis players did he take them with him? No, he's trundled his brand of hoofball to two other clubs making new friends wherever he has gone but those players are still being paid handsomely by the club and are in part why we haven't got all the shinny new players many fans would like. Allardyce won't be here at the end of the season and I sure don't want his legacy for another 3 or 4 years.
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Playing Matt Phillips in central midfield - to describe that as tactically naive would be too polite. It’s a shambles.
Yet when he played there under Moore he was actually quite good in a 3
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Not sure Bilic can be blamed for the current manager not picking a player?
Bilic bombed Grosiki from day one , never wanted him because its a Dowling signing . The blokes hardly kicked a ball in months , i can blame him for that and being rusty.
I suspect he's being sold , if not its time he had a go.
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I hope we don't waste money on bringing in "his" players in. The truth is they aren't his players they are the club's players the club pay the fees and wages and will carry on doing so for years after Allardyce has gone.
Livermore, Gibbs and Robson-Kanu are Pulis players did he take them with him? No, he's trundled his brand of hoofball to two other clubs making new friends wherever he has gone but those players are still being paid handsomely by the club and are in part why we haven't got all the shinny new players many fans would like. Allardyce won't be here at the end of the season and I sure don't want his legacy for another 3 or 4 years.
Agreed. I know all fans suffer from optimism bias but I think we're going down and BS* will depart. I don't doubt with some of his "contacts" and an injection of cash he will find some players more to his taste. However I don't want to see the club saddled with yet another set of ageing, expensive journeymen.
* BTW what does BS stand for? I thought from some of the posts it should for Bright Saviour but now ...
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I hope we don't waste money on bringing in "his" players in. The truth is they aren't his players they are the club's players the club pay the fees and wages and will carry on doing so for years after Allardyce has gone.
Livermore, Gibbs and Robson-Kanu are Pulis players did he take them with him? No, he's trundled his brand of hoofball to two other clubs making new friends wherever he has gone but those players are still being paid handsomely by the club and are in part why we haven't got all the shinny new players many fans would like. Allardyce won't be here at the end of the season and I sure don't want his legacy for another 3 or 4 years.
I suspect the moment he took the job he was always going to get a few of his type in , with just how weak this lot are it maybe a few more if possible .
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I suspect the moment he took the job he was always going to get a few of his type in , with just how weak this lot are it maybe a few more if possible .
It seems inevitable that he would have secured some sort of commitment to January reinforcements but what little there was to build on has been completely destroyed by his first four games in charge. We are completely dead and we should just cut our losses now.
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It seems inevitable that he would have secured some sort of commitment to January reinforcements but what little there was to build on has been completely destroyed by his first four games in charge. We are completely dead and we should just cut our losses now.
What would be the point?
No one is going to come in and keep us up. We might as well just see out this season, get to the summer and rebuild, giving a new man a proper chance.
I dont see the point of bringing in someone else now just to hang him out to dry.
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I hope we don't waste money on bringing in "his" players in. The truth is they aren't his players they are the club's players the club pay the fees and wages and will carry on doing so for years after Allardyce has gone.
Livermore, Gibbs and Robson-Kanu are Pulis players did he take them with him? No, he's trundled his brand of hoofball to two other clubs making new friends wherever he has gone but those players are still being paid handsomely by the club and are in part why we haven't got all the shinny new players many fans would like. Allardyce won't be here at the end of the season and I sure don't want his legacy for another 3 or 4 years.
His players! I don't care who he brings in as long as they have got more bottle, passion and commitment than the shower we currently have. Oh and players that actually care and try!
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I think the squad actually does need some of his type of players regardless. Not a full team of them maybe not but we do need some steel and physicality and strength of character.
Sawyers as defensive midfielder straight away highlights a massive problem.
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It seems inevitable that he would have secured some sort of commitment to January reinforcements but what little there was to build on has been completely destroyed by his first four games in charge. We are completely dead and we should just cut our losses now.
We aren't cut off point wise , Lai needs a Premier club to sell for the highest price . As Albion59 pointed out this lot are pathetic and weak mentally , Allardyce or not the ship needs to be steadied if possible.
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Just for a bit of context from the similar survival jobs he has overseen previously. Allardyce is going to require a similar bit of magic if he wants to get anywhere with our lot. Shows the emphasis he places on a January transfer window.
At Sunderland he started with 3 wins in 11. It turned around after a January transfer window where they only lost 4 of 19 matches with 6 wins to see them to safety.
At Crystal Palace it was one win in his opening 6. After January additions he managed 7 wins in 15 which saw them survive largely due to a period of 6 wins in 8
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Just for a bit of context from the similar survival jobs he has overseen previously. Allardyce is going to require a similar bit of magic if he wants to get anywhere with our lot. Shows the emphasis he places on a January transfer window.
At Sunderland he started with 3 wins in 11. It turned around after a January transfer window where they only lost 4 of 19 matches with 6 wins to see them to safety.
At Crystal Palace it was one win in his opening 6. After January additions he managed 7 wins in 15 which saw them survive largely due to a period of 6 wins in 8
The question is how much he gets to spend. Looking at the graphic of his signings at other clubs on BT last night I can’t see how he can match those sums.
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His players! I don't care who he brings in as long as they have got more bottle, passion and commitment than the shower we currently have. Oh and players that actually care and try!
Would you be happy to bring in players with those credentials on big money loan deals to the end of the season?
Personally I wouldn’t as the chance of us surviving this season are very low, I’d rather we invest for next year.
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He's the best manager we could have appointed in the short term. He's not to blame for our shoddy recruitment or our players lack of commitment. This is literally mission impossible
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We would need a minimum of 6 first team players to change this squad enough to have a chance of staying up. I've said all along 20 points is an achievement with this squad which is a top 6 championship squad.
If I were the club, I'd throw a few loans at it but ensure we're not lumbered with old, expensive plodders who can defend but not much else which is what I expect SA to focus on in Jan.
SA wont be here next season in the EFL so why get stuck with his players.
What a Pardew style mess again
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He's the best manager we could have appointed in the short term. He's not to blame for our shoddy recruitment or our players lack of commitment. This is literally mission impossible
The problem is the club always look short term, when in fact they should be planning long term.
Allardyce was never the answer. His appointment will actually set us back in the long term as we will have less funds available next season.
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Would you be happy to bring in players with those credentials on big money loan deals to the end of the season?
Personally I wouldn’t as the chance of us surviving this season are very low, I’d rather we invest for next year.
I would yes , 1. Because we aren't cut off yet somehow and 2 . We have a set of younger players who could be damaged beyond repair at this rate , Semi for instance is struggling badly after looking OK.
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What would be the point?
No one is going to come in and keep us up. We might as well just see out this season, get to the summer and rebuild, giving a new man a proper chance.
I dont see the point of bringing in someone else now just to hang him out to dry.
I want Allardyce gone as soon as possible but you are right we may as well let this bleed out under him as anybody else. I would fire him before the end of the season and hire the new coach after relegation is confirmed so he is in place and can work with the players for the last few games of this season. Just so he can see what he has got to work with first hand.
Cutting our losses is not throwing good money after bad by getting in players for Allardyce.
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The problem is the club always look short term, when in fact they should be planning long term.
Allardyce was never the answer. His appointment will actually set us back in the long term as we will have less funds available next season.
We have gone from having a good system of appointing managers, and scouting for players, to short term fixes. Pulis was a disaster, yes he kept us up, but with football no one wanted to watch. Any reputation we ever had has gone. Pardew and now Allardyce are in the same mould. Managers who have had long careers but have never won a thing, and never will. Who next ? Warnock?
I understand the financial implications of not being in the Premier League, but what pleasure does anyone get from trying to finish 17th out of 20?
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I would fire him before the end of the season and hire the new coach after relegation is confirmed so he is in place and can work with the players for the last few games of this season. Just so he can see what he has got to work with first hand.
Totally agree with that.
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Actually, I think Warnock might have been a better choice at this time, I think the dressing room would certainly have been an interesting place to be at the moment! :D
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I’m really struggling to grasp the defeatist attitude together with the utter contempt for Sam Allardyce from certain corners on this forum.
The guy hasn’t even had a transfer window yet and to date only has this imbalanced squad cooked up between Slaven Bilić and Luke Dowling to select from.
At the moment we’re 6 points from 17th. We’re not cut adrift yet.
There’s no guarantee Big Sam will keep us up this season. But he’s probably the best chance we’ve got to achieve it.
🔵⚪ï¸âš½ï¸🔵⚪ï¸
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BTW what does BS stand for? I thought from some of the posts it should for Bright Saviour but now ...
Well I know what I think it stands for, but I suppose "Bilic's Successor" and "Big Sam" are other possibilities.
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I'm with Aztech and Standaman. Don't give this bloke any significant money, not on anyone who'd weigh us down any longer than the end of the season at least, then get rid of him as soon as possible when "mission impossible" proves to be just that. We can, and should, plan for next season and beyond, but of course we (more accurately: the board) won't.
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Tbf the board already have lists drawn up from last year for the PL and EFL targets so next summer's transfer window will be a doddle. Have faith guys.
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Tbf the board already have lists drawn up from last year for the PL and EFL targets so next summer's transfer window will be a doddle. Have faith guys.
That's the scariest thing I've read so far!
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I’m really struggling to grasp the defeatist attitude together with the utter contempt for Sam Allardyce from certain corners on this forum.
The guy hasn’t even had a transfer window yet and to date only has this imbalanced squad cooked up between Slaven Bilić and Luke Dowling to select from.
At the moment we’re 6 points from 17th. We’re not cut adrift yet.
There’s no guarantee Big Sam will keep us up this season. But he’s probably the best chance we’ve got to achieve it.
🔵⚪ï¸âš½ï¸🔵⚪ï¸
I’d argue it is not a defeatist attitude more a realist.
Many fans suggested any reasonable coach would keep this squad in the premier league. Those same supporters are now suggesting Allardyce needs funds to recruit his own type of player and should only be judged after a period of time.
I would be ecstatic if we were to avoid relegation, however I’ll have a little bet with you it won’t happen.
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SSN reporting Allardyce will be signing players on loan or short term deals which is good to hear. Back him. Wants Sakho. Get him.
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I'm with Aztech and Standaman. Don't give this bloke any significant money, not on anyone who'd weigh us down any longer than the end of the season at least, then get rid of him as soon as possible when "mission impossible" proves to be just that. We can, and should, plan for next season and beyond, but of course we (more accurately: the board) won't.
I would echo that!.He is here just for the money. You only need to look at previous allegations and the England job.
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He is a short term fix so let him sign players in the same way. If he brings a few in, on short term deals, it doesn't matter about age, etc. Just don't give him any significant money or allow any long term deals.
If it works and we stay up we can renegotiate any that we want to retain, if not, we go down and start again, knowing that some of our younger players have a year of Prem experience under their belt.
What we absolutely mustn't do is throw our nads at it and end up with a bunch of Allardyce has beans going into a Championship campaign.
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Just for a bit of context from the similar survival jobs he has overseen previously. Allardyce is going to require a similar bit of magic if he wants to get anywhere with our lot. Shows the emphasis he places on a January transfer window.
At Sunderland he started with 3 wins in 11. It turned around after a January transfer window where they only lost 4 of 19 matches with 6 wins to see them to safety.
At Crystal Palace it was one win in his opening 6. After January additions he managed 7 wins in 15 which saw them survive largely due to a period of 6 wins in 8
I suspect that Palace and Sunderland had far superior squads back then to what we have here. We need another 5/6 starters to stand any chance IMO.
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Short term or loans have a big snag in that it means the majority won’t have been playing anything more than the odd game here and there so unlikely ready to go straight in and we are in the situation where we need to win around half the remaining games to have any chance . 9 wins gives us 35 points less one for our goal difference 34, can’t see that being enough
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Absolutely no issue signing PL players on 18 month deals. Would give us a chance to stay up and should make easy work of the EFL.
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The issue is wages when we go down . You have to sign somebody now that doesn’t mind having their wages cut by around half in 6 months time .
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The issue is wages when we go down . You have to sign somebody now that doesn’t mind having their wages cut by around half in 6 months time .
Id imagine there will be various clauses for these players to avoid that especially as they are going to be signed on nominal fees.
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I want Allardyce gone as soon as possible but you are right we may as well let this bleed out under him as anybody else. I would fire him before the end of the season and hire the new coach after relegation is confirmed so he is in place and can work with the players for the last few games of this season. Just so he can see what he has got to work with first hand.
Cutting our losses is not throwing good money after bad by getting in players for Allardyce.
We all know by now you want Allardyce gone but some of us don't! You keep saying you don't want him wasting money on his players (whatever that means?) But it's ok to be left with some of the dross that Bilic wasted money on. Diangana, Pierera and Grant. How much of a waste have those 3 been this season? Then you have got Ivanovic what a waste of a wage that is!!
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We all know by now you want Allardyce gone but some of us don't! You keep saying you don't want him wasting money on his players (whatever that means?) But it's ok to be left with some of the dross that Bilic wasted money on. Diangana, Pierera and Grant. How much of a waste have those 3 been this season? Then you have got Ivanovic what a waste of a wage that is!!
Can you perhaps explain why you don't want him gone? Is it that his teams play positive and attractive football? Is it that he knows how to sort a defence out and make us hard to beat? Is it his bubbly personality? Is it his ability to motivate a team and get them playing for him? Or is it his honesty and integrity maybe?
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I suspect that Palace and Sunderland had far superior squads back then to what we have here. We need another 5/6 starters to stand any chance IMO.
Agreed. New spine needed made up of three or four players. Commanding CD, DM leader and ideally another box 2 box, CF to lead line. Then the RB we all knew was needed and another option at LB with Gibbs made of paper. Aint going to happen but thats pretty minimum requirments.
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Can you perhaps explain why you don't want him gone? Is it that his teams play positive and attractive football? Is it that he knows how to sort a defence out and make us hard to beat? Is it his bubbly personality? Is it his ability to motivate a team and get them playing for him? Or is it his honesty and integrity maybe?
There’s only one reason he’s here - his proven track record of saving two clubs from similarly hopeless positions. Can see the attraction of that to an owner - but the game has almost certainly moved on too far since he achieved that.
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We all know by now you want Allardyce gone but some of us don't! You keep saying you don't want him wasting money on his players (whatever that means?) But it's ok to be left with some of the dross that Bilic wasted money on. Diangana, Pierera and Grant. How much of a waste have those 3 been this season? Then you have got Ivanovic what a waste of a wage that is!!
Grant and Diangana can still come good and will be good in the Championship. Pereira is good enough and critically bought for a low enough fee to be a saleable assest. Personally I would not have signed Ivanovic and would have quite happily sacked Bilic for that alone and to some extent Ivanovic was an early sign that things were really heading south.
He wants Sakho. Well let's look at Sakho 30 years old in his last year of his £100k a week contract at Palace has not been a regular for 2 seasons and with a significant injury record. We can takeover the balance of his contract and that will cost £2.5m . If we go down that's £2.5m we can't spend in the Championship and £2.5m goes further in the Championship than does in the Premier League.
If we stay up he probably gets a 3 year contract even if it isn't £100k a week it won't be peanuts and if we subsequently get relegated it is that contract that is the next millstone round our neck.
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Can you perhaps explain why you don't want him gone? Is it that his teams play positive and attractive football? Is it that he knows how to sort a defence out and make us hard to beat? Is it his bubbly personality? Is it his ability to motivate a team and get them playing for him? Or is it his honesty and integrity maybe?
Why should i explain myself to you? I am not a naughty child.
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We all know by now you want Allardyce gone but some of us don't! You keep saying you don't want him wasting money on his players (whatever that means?) But it's ok to be left with some of the dross that Bilic wasted money on. Diangana, Pierera and Grant. How much of a waste have those 3 been this season? Then you have got Ivanovic what a waste of a wage that is!!
Are you genuinely calling those three "dross" and that we're lumbered with them, and you can't imagine what "Big Sam type players" will be?
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Can you perhaps explain why you don't want him gone? Is it that his teams play positive and attractive football? Is it that he knows how to sort a defence out and make us hard to beat? Is it his bubbly personality? Is it his ability to motivate a team and get them playing for him? Or is it his honesty and integrity maybe?
This. I genuinely don't understand why anyone would want him here still? The only reason is "he might keep us up", but look at the table, look at the squad, there's no chance of us reaching 35 pts this season. To stay up we need 2 other teams to implode more than we have so far, yet the other teams look like they can still pick up pts. Then if we go down we've got his January signings stuck with the squad.
And even if he does keep us up, it'll be on a brand of football we all hated to see under Pulis and he gets another 12 months to make sure any form of creativity is gone out of the squad.
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Looks like a difficult job has just got a little bit harder
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396 (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396)
Did we really interview Sam for this job?
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Grant and Diangana can still come good and will be good in the Championship. Pereira is good enough and critically bought for a low enough fee to be a saleable assest. Personally I would not have signed Ivanovic and would have quite happily sacked Bilic for that alone and to some extent Ivanovic was an early sign that things were really heading south.
He wants Sakho. Well let's look at Sakho 30 years old in his last year of his £100k a week contract at Palace has not been a regular for 2 seasons and with a significant injury record. We can takeover the balance of his contract and that will cost £2.5m . If we go down that's £2.5m we can't spend in the Championship and £2.5m goes further in the Championship than does in the Premier League.
If we stay up he probably gets a 3 year contract even if it isn't £100k a week it won't be peanuts and if we subsequently get relegated it is that contract that is the next millstone round our neck.
If the club are serious about trying to stay up this is the kind of signing we will need to make. I'm not saying I agree but once BS was given the job then this was the obvious direction of travel despite the utter garbage Dowling was peddling about him seeing enough I'm the squad.
WE all know the team lacks a spine/natural leadership and if BS wasn't sure before he certainly will be now (although the only way he would have been unsure is if he hadn't watched us). If he isnt backed what was the point?
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Looks like a difficult job has just got a little bit harder
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396 (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396)
Did we really interview Sam for this job?
So we didn't know that was going to happen? Thick as mince. I rest my case.
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Apart from playing Sawyers I don't think he has had little impact.
From all accounts he watched our under 23's go down four nil at half time and was disgusted and couldn't believe they were not making an effort to impress and push for a first team place.
I believe Field was ok and probably that was why Diaby was on the bench.
The window is now open and he might wait till after cup match when he has had chance to see fringe players and youngsters to see what signings he must make.
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Absolutely no issue signing PL players on 18 month deals. Would give us a chance to stay up and should make easy work of the EFL.
Apart from the wage flexdown issue which has already been mentioned, any such players signed who fancy their chances of being re-signed by a Prem club would insist on a release clause should we be relegated. That's assuming anyone worth their salt wants to come to a basket case of a club based on its league position and getting hammered almost every week.
Given our desperate position, we hold very few cards when negotiating deals in this window.
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Why should i explain myself to you? I am not a naughty child.
No reason really. Was just an invitation to share your opinion. You know, what people do on a football forum. But no worries if you're not in the mood.
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Apart from the wage flexdown issue which has already been mentioned, any such players signed who fancy their chances of being re-signed by a Prem club would insist on a release clause should we be relegated. That's assuming anyone worth their salt wants to come to a basket case of a club based on its league position and getting hammered almost every week.
Given our desperate position, we hold very few cards when negotiating deals in this window.
Of course we don't. I'd like us to look abroad for players trying to keep their Euro squad places but I'd wager the club are doing very little abroad in terms of scouting and deals.
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Of course we don't. I'd like us to look abroad for players trying to keep their Euro squad places but I'd wager the club are doing very little abroad in terms of scouting and deals.
The new work permit regulations make this virtually impossible. Either they are playing and therefore don't need the move to this sinking ship or they not playing regularly and therefore don't qualify for a permit.
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There’s only one reason he’s here - his proven track record of saving two clubs from similarly hopeless positions. Can see the attraction of that to an owner - but the game has almost certainly moved on too far since he achieved that.
Yes, that's fairly accurate I think. For the owners to not realise that though tells us a lot about how little they understand about modern football.
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The new work permit regulations make this virtually impossible. Either they are playing and therefore don't need the move to this sinking ship or they not playing regularly and therefore don't qualify for a permit.
Excuse my Brexit ignorance but I thought as long as a player was under contract in one of the top 5 leagues then the transfer could take place.
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He has now dug his players out numerous times since having the job and on top of that he has also said they are not good enough in public, It is no surprise that they have now completely downed tools.
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Excuse my Brexit ignorance but I thought as long as a player was under contract in one of the top 5 leagues then the transfer could take place.
There are 20 pages of regulations on the FA website which detail the points based scheme. They are heavily weighted toward established internationals in the top 50 fifa ranked countries. Players without regular international football will only qualify if they play at least 75% the available minutes for their clubs even in a top teir league and their club qualifies for European football.
Allardyce has already run into the issue according to quotes in the B'ham Mail further up this thread.
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No reason really. Was just an invitation to share your opinion. You know, what people do on a football forum. But no worries if you're not in the mood.
Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
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Already I feel like we should part ways. Players don't want to play for him and we don't have enough money to replace them. He's already moaning about Covid and how he is worried about catching it. The guy should of stayed retired. We should of gone for a up and coming manager with a experienced assistant.
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i thought it was common knowledge he has a break clause in the contract so that if (when) we're relegated he doesn't have the 2nd season activated. His salary is minimal i believe as far as these things go.
Personally, i'd not spend anything this Jan and i'd play a team i'm confident will be around next season (apart from MP). Aim to bounce back up. Covid has totally screwed football finances, we need to ensure we're still around in ten years. Being in the Prem next year is too short a target and now fairly unrealistic.
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There are 20 pages of regulations on the FA website which detail the points based scheme. They are heavily weighted toward established internationals in the top 50 fifa ranked countries. Players without regular international football will only qualify if they play at least 75% the available minutes for their clubs even in a top teir league and their club qualifies for European football.
Allardyce has already run into the issue according to quotes in the B'ham Mail further up this thread.
Thank you, will have a read.
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Thought Bilic should of got Villa game after Man City performance but Allardyce should be playing to our strengths. Balls being hoofed up to Grant, Austin or Robinson by keeper are a major issue, we can't get a foothold in game. Slaven wanted us to play out of back and move the team up as a unit Sam seems to just want us to compete from our goal kick which our players are in capable of doing, round holes and square pegs the Albion tradition.
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Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
The guy shouldn’t be anywhere near the club especially what happened with England. And yes I would tell him face to face my thoughts about him, not abusive but in a constructive way. He should never have been appointed.
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The guy shouldn’t be anywhere near the club especially what happened with England. And yes I would tell him face to face my thoughts about him, not abusive but in a constructive way. He should never have been appointed.
Well he is and he was.
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Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
What you actually don’t seem to like is fans with a different viewpoint to your own. Since Allardyce has taken over we’ve fallen off a cliff and got completely hammered in three home games. It’s not exactly surprising that supporters would decide that the managerial switch has been a unmitigated disaster.
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Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
We are bullying big Sam Allardyce? Haha, I've heard it all now. I'm sure he's quaking in his boots poor soul !!
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What you actually don’t seem to like is fans with a different viewpoint to your own. Since Allardyce has taken over we’ve fallen off a cliff and got completely hammered in three home games. It’s not exactly surprising that supporters would decide that the managerial switch has been a unmitigated disaster.
I have no problem with other people's opinions mate. If you read my earlier posts i actually said i wasn't happy with his appointment but he is here now. But some of the reaction on here as been out of order.
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Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
I don't think anyone has called him any names. I'd be more than happy to say he has our team sitting too deep and that trying to get a team that isn't great at defending to spend 70% of the match defending is a recipe for disaster.
Your last point is interesting - you'd be happy to see Sam oversee whatever kind of destruction for 2 years just so it would annoy people who don't think he's good enough? And you think *that's* supporting Albion?
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I have no problem with other people's opinions mate. If you read my earlier posts i actually said i wasn't happy with his appointment but he is here now. But some of the reaction on here as been out of order.
The reaction on here hasn't been "out of order" at all. There are perfectly valid reasons not to want Sam Allardyce as our manager, and many posts have eloquently explained why not. I agree with Baggie82 by the way. I disagree with you. You do sometimes tend to get very defensive when people disagree with you, which is possibly why he made the comment.
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The reaction on here hasn't been "out of order" at all. There are perfectly valid reasons not to want Sam Allardyce as our manager, and many posts have eloquently explained why not. I agree with Baggie82 by the way. I disagree with you. You do sometimes tend to get very defensive when people disagree with you, which is possibly why he made the comment.
Defensive? I don't think so mate. That's a bit kettle pot after your spat with Jacko for calling you Timmy!!
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Lads, calm it down please. Don't want to have to start removing posts or people.
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Already I feel like we should part ways. Players don't want to play for him and we don't have enough money to replace them. He's already moaning about Covid and how he is worried about catching it. The guy should of stayed retired. We should of gone for a up and coming manager with a experienced assistant.
Or an experienced international and premier league manager like Bilic..... :D
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The squad is not great, but not completely hopeless. Allardyce already seems to have had a negative impact on Dianghana (now a full back) and Gallagher (now a defensive midfielder) .They are good players if handled by a a progressive thinking manager, something Allardyce is not. We had Gnabry, who was no good for Pulis, but is not that bad a player it turns out.
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The squad is not great, but not completely hopeless. Allardyce already seems to have had a negative impact on Dianghana (now a full back) and Gallagher (now a defensive midfielder) .They are good players if handled by a a progressive thinking manager, something Allardyce is not. We had Gnabry, who was no good for Pulis, but is not that bad a player it turns out.
Agree with these points but to be fair Grady wasnt performing for Slav either
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Agree with these points but to be fair Grady wasnt performing for Slav either
And Gnabry wasn't performing for Wenger
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I suspect Wenger had more alternative options than we had.
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And Gnabry wasn't performing for Wenger
Maybe we will sell Grady to Bayern and he will shine ;D
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I suspect Wenger had more alternative options than we had.
Maybe he did but Gnabry showed nothing and left Arsenal with a whimper
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Maybe we will sell Grady to Bayern and he will shine ;D
Better have a good sell clause just in case :D
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A few things, I was in the keep Bilic camp but I can also see why they sacked him in terms of what the owner wants / results etc.
Sam Allardyce would not have been my choice but he isn't a bad manager. His record suggests with teams our size he has done well. Whatever you think of his style of play he has a good record. He is a much better manager than Pardew.
All that to say his start has been terrible and we seem to have regressed with every match. I really don't like the "we love the manager narrative" as we have had managers the players loved and yet the results were rubbish.
It does "feel" though like the last season we got relegated. I think Sam is better than Pardew but the "feeling" around the club seems similar.
I think Sunderland, Palace and Everton had better squads that Sam inherited and also they backed him more than I assume we will.
He says he wants a defender, Holding Mid and Forward. Even if he gets Sakho, Choudrey and say Tosun. Can you honestly say that's enough to keep us up??? Personally think we need 5 players.
At 3-1 down Brighton at least they had some fight and effort to come back we don't seem to have any.
Things just seem grim. The football is rubbish and losing every week like this is pretty demoralizing. Also who are we going to leapfrog in the table? Only Sheff Utd seem worse than us (only on results not performances).
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I guess I just get frustrated at the club just existing and not competing, which seems to be summed up by recent managerial appointments. I went to the 1970 league cup final, never dreaming it would be the last opportunity I would get to see us in a major final. Up until that point ,we had a proud history. In around 90 years we had reached 13 cup finals and won the league and been runners up at least one (possibly twice, not checked) So every six years or so we were in the frame for winning something. This does not count endless semi finals. In the last 50 years we have done nothing, and in the premier league era do not seem to even try in cup competitions. Tony Mowbray being the exception, who absorbed the clubs history and was unlucky not to achieve something better than the semi final. A journalist some years ago in a column said ,what is the point of West Bromwich Albion? Something I took exception to at the time, but now begin to wonder. Over the years, it has been the comradeship and travelling round the county, going with my Dad, and then taking my son. Now that is taken away for the foreseeable future. Appointing Allardyce is the continuation of having no ambition, other than to survive in the bottom few of the premier league, or the top few of the championship. OK if played with style, and giving some pleasure to home fans and others. Sadly we are unlikely to see any of that for some time.
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i thought it was common knowledge he has a break clause in the contract so that if (when) we're relegated he doesn't have the 2nd season activated. His salary is minimal i believe as far as these things go.
Personally, i'd not spend anything this Jan and i'd play a team i'm confident will be around next season (apart from MP). Aim to bounce back up. Covid has totally screwed football finances, we need to ensure we're still around in ten years. Being in the Prem next year is too short a target and now fairly unrealistic.
Absolutely agree.
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I guess I just get frustrated at the club just existing and not competing, which seems to be summed up by recent managerial appointments. I went to the 1970 league cup final, never dreaming it would be the last opportunity I would get to see us in a major final. Up until that point ,we had a proud history. In around 90 years we had reached 13 cup finals and won the league and been runners up at least one (possibly twice, not checked) So every six years or so we were in the frame for winning something. This does not count endless semi finals. In the last 50 years we have done nothing, and in the premier league era do not seem to even try in cup competitions. Tony Mowbray being the exception, who absorbed the clubs history and was unlucky not to achieve something better than the semi final. A journalist some years ago in a column said ,what is the point of West Bromwich Albion? Something I took exception to at the time, but now begin to wonder. Over the years, it has been the comradeship and travelling round the county, going with my Dad, and then taking my son. Now that is taken away for the foreseeable future. Appointing Allardyce is the continuation of having no ambition, other than to survive in the bottom few of the premier league, or the top few of the championship. OK if played with style, and giving some pleasure to home fans and others. Sadly we are unlikely to see any of that for some time.
Excellent post and I totally agree
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I sympathise with the fans who would just pack up and save it for next season, who want the club to think longer term but the stark reality is that we don't have the hierarchy in place to make a success of that and he's here now and significant movement of players and transfer money will happen in the next 4 weeks regardless. They simply would not have made the change otherwise.
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I sympathise with the fans who would just pack up and save it for next season, who want the club to think longer term but the stark reality is that we don't have the hierarchy in place to make a success of that and he's here now and significant movement of players and transfer money will happen in the next 4 weeks regardless. They simply would not have made the change otherwise.
I honestly wouldn’t put it past our board to tell Allardyce what he wants to hear to get him through the door and then move the goalposts. From what Madley wrote in the athletic after Slav got canned he mentioned the relationship between him & the board deteriorated from an early stage as certain things promised by the board never materialised.
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I honestly wouldn’t put it past our board to tell Allardyce what he wants to hear to get him through the door and then move the goalposts. From what Madley wrote in the athletic after Slav got canned he mentioned the relationship between him & the board deteriorated from an early stage as certain things promised by the board never materialised.
TBF i dont think many of us trust our board. Sad times.
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I sympathise with the fans who would just pack up and save it for next season, who want the club to think longer term but the stark reality is that we don't have the hierarchy in place to make a success of that and he's here now and significant movement of players and transfer money will happen in the next 4 weeks regardless. They simply would not have made the change otherwise.
Jacko,
SA hadn't even realised that there was a problem recruiting overseas players post brexit.
However you spin it, we're in the cakki.
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Jacko,
SA hadn't even realised that there was a problem recruiting overseas players post brexit.
However you spin it, we're in the cakki.
TBF i thought it was ok if you played in the top 5 leagues. It ain't! My Brexit ignorance shining through.
"A score of 15 points against the criteria will be enough to secure a GBE, while a score between 10 and 14 points is referred to an exceptions panel who will then rule on the suitability and quality of the player concerned.
What criteria are used in the points system?
The new system will still include number of international caps, plus the FIFA ranking of that country, as it did before when judging the quality of non-EU signings. But it has become more sophisticated and will now also consider a range of other factors including club appearances, the strength of the domestic league and other competitions those appearances were made in and even the academy which developed a player.
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SA hadn't even realised that there was a problem recruiting overseas players post brexit.
To be fair, I think the rules weren't clear until fairly recently. Also to be fair, it was fairly predictable there would be some kind of problem because we no longer have an automatic right to work in the EU nor the other way around.
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Don't patronize me either. I don't like bullies and that's what a lot of you are turning into regarding our new manager. Would you call him to his face what he as been called on here by some? I doubt it, it's easy on a forum when nobody as to face anyone. At the end of the day like it or not he is the manager and as i have said on here before to not back him is to not back the Albion and i will never do that. I hope he stays for a couple of years just to annoy all you who want him gone.
Bizarre.
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Bizarre.
Why bizarre? A 2 year stay will mean he kept us up and had a successful 21/22 campaign. If it upsets the Bilić fanclub that Albion are doing well then who's outlook is odd?
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I sympathise with the fans who would just pack up and save it for next season, who want the club to think longer term but the stark reality is that we don't have the hierarchy in place to make a success of that and he's here now and significant movement of players and transfer money will happen in the next 4 weeks regardless. They simply would not have made the change otherwise.
We are unwilling to spend any money, so have no budget to facilitate a significant turnover of the playing squad in the limited January transfer window. This is wishful thinking on your behalf. Luke Dowling has stated the exact opposite:
"Sam looked at the squad before he came here and I’m sure if he felt there needed to be massive changes he wouldn’t be here now. Sam believes there is something here to work with which gives us amazing confidence as a club. We believe in the players that are here as well. And with Sam and his backroom staff, plus some additions in January, we believe we will go in the right direction."
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We are unwilling to spend any money, so have no budget to facilitate a significant turnover of the playing squad in the limited January transfer window. This is wishful thinking on your behalf. Luke Dowling has stated the exact opposite:
"Sam looked at the squad before he came here and I’m sure if he felt there needed to be massive changes he wouldn’t be here now. Sam believes there is something here to work with which gives us amazing confidence as a club. We believe in the players that are here as well. And with Sam and his backroom staff, plus some additions in January, we believe we will go in the right direction."
You can consign that Dowling statement to the scrap heap, although it may still have some merit once Sam has had this fortnight on the training pitch to get his methods across. Irrespective 4 or 5 players will be added to the group imo.
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TBF i thought it was ok if you played in the top 5 leagues. It ain't! My Brexit ignorance shining through.
"A score of 15 points against the criteria will be enough to secure a GBE, while a score between 10 and 14 points is referred to an exceptions panel who will then rule on the suitability and quality of the player concerned.
What criteria are used in the points system?
The new system will still include number of international caps, plus the FIFA ranking of that country, as it did before when judging the quality of non-EU signings. But it has become more sophisticated and will now also consider a range of other factors including club appearances, the strength of the domestic league and other competitions those appearances were made in and even the academy which developed a player.
An example of how much more difficult it will be is Leicester wouldnt have been able to sign Mahrez
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Why bizarre? A 2 year stay will mean he kept us up and had a successful 21/22 campaign. If it upsets the Bilić fanclub that Albion are doing well then who's outlook is odd?
There is no Bilic fan club, simply a group of supporters who have a different opinion as to the decision to appoint Allardyce.
I would be ecstatic if Allardyce were to keep us up, and I’m sure all Albion fans would be whether you were pro Bilic or not.
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Jacko,
SA hadn't even realised that there was a problem recruiting overseas players post brexit.
However you spin it, we're in the cakki.
I'm sure he was aware that it would be more difficult. For me the story merely suggests he identified 3 players and when they looked into bringing them in the new rules meant they were unobtainable. No lack of knowledge imo.
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Why bizarre? A 2 year stay will mean he kept us up and had a successful 21/22 campaign. If it upsets the Bilić fanclub that Albion are doing well then who's outlook is odd?
You are making a leap of logic, which frankly you should know does not necessarily apply at the Albion.
You have often said Pulis should have gone earlier, so equally let’s not pretend that Allerdyces tenure is linked to success
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You can consign that Dowling statement to the scrap heap, although it may still have some merit once Sam has had this fortnight on the training pitch to get his methods across. Irrespective 4 or 5 players will be added to the group imo.
On balance I'm going to place more emphasis on the comments of Luke Dowling than your opinion; given he is the technical director whereas your a fan like me. The window is now open. Let's see how much weight we throw behind getting new players in. 2/3 additions around the first team is my expectation.
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Cut the Bilic/ Allardyce fan club stuff ffs, what is wrong with some of you lot?
The personal digs on this forum lately are embarrassing and all of you should know better as you've all had warnings about it very recently so last chance cut it out or the posts and then the posters will be taking a break and for some the break will be a permanent one.
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Cut the Bilic/ Allardyce fan club stuff ffs, what is wrong with some of you lot?
The personal digs on this forum lately are embarrassing and all of you should know better as you've all had warnings about it very recently so last chance cut it out or the posts and then the posters will be taking a break and for some the break will be a permanent one.
Apologies, was more of a generalisation than directed at any poster in particular. There is certainly a faction 'for Bilić' in our fanbase, but I'll refrain from mentioning it again on here. Sorry again.
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On balance I'm going to place more emphasis on the comments of Luke Dowling than your opinion; given he is the technical director whereas your a fan like me. The window is now open. Let's see how much weight we throw behind getting new players in. 2/3 additions around the first team is my expectation.
I see, meaning Dowling is inflexible, it doesn't much matter if you can't but if he can't see the circumstances have changed significantly since he made that statement then is he the right man for the job?
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Apologies, was more of a generalisation than directed at any poster in particular. There is certainly a faction 'for Bilić' in our fanbase, but I'll refrain from mentioning it again on here. Sorry again.
Given the state of our club and the passion / despair that brings up in people I don't think overall we've done too badly on this forum recently. Let's face it, we are in turmoil. I remember the good old days when we were winning football games and this place was like a morgue.
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I see, meaning Dowling is inflexible, it doesn't much matter if you can't but if he can't see the circumstances have changed significantly since he made that statement then is he the right man for the job?
Since those comments were made by Dowling we've gone from broke and quite relegated to broke and extremely relegated. I don't see that as a platform to turnover the squad in January. I'd welcome all the help we can get this month, as long as we are not saddling ourselves with longer term high wages on journey men players. So to that extent I hope the activity outstrips my expectations.
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It’s bloody sad how the club has contrived to split the fan base yet again, not by design but regardless, we are teeing off at each other in frustration, when the real direction for our annoyance should be the board / senior management AGAIN!!’
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You can consign that Dowling statement to the scrap heap, although it may still have some merit once Sam has had this fortnight on the training pitch to get his methods across. Irrespective 4 or 5 players will be added to the group imo.
Agree with this , I just watched the Allardyce post match interview he's been slaughtered for across many platforms. Whether you like him or not he's speaking some harsh truths regarding the squad and lack of basics imo , it really felt like an admission these players are worse than what he thought and a massive nudge at Dowling .
End of the day Lai wants out then he might have to bend on transfers to get his best price for this club , I'm guessing at 3 in at least .
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It’s bloody sad how the club has contrived to split the fan base yet again, not by design but regardless, we are teeing off at each other in frustration, when the real direction for our annoyance should be the board / senior management AGAIN!!’
Amen to this.
I've been guilty of it too when emotions were running high so apologies from me if i seemed a bit arsey, wasnt my intention
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Agree with this , I just watched the Allardyce post match interview he's been slaughtered for across many platforms. Whether you like him or not he's speaking some harsh truths regarding the squad and lack of basics imo , it really felt like an admission these players are worse than what he thought and a massive nudge at Dowling .
End of the day Lai wants out then he might have to bend on transfers to get his best price for this club , I'm guessing at 3 in at least .
Since day one I've said this squad is not good enough to survive in the premiership; so that's no surprise. What is disappointing is that in his short time in charge so far, Allardyce has made us even worse. I thought he sounded desperate and defeated in his interview. I was most shocked by his statement that moving forwards we would have to sit deep and try to nick a goal to compete. As that's all we have been trying since he took over anyway; yet he tried to give the impression that we'd been taking on Arsenal and got hit on the break. Hard to tell if he had lost the plot or was deliberately being misleading. He was also banging on before the game about the players capitulating to Leeds due to lack of recovery time. Yet it was him who decided to pick an unchanged side that lacked legs.
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End of the day Lai wants out then he might have to bend on transfers to get his best price for this club , I'm guessing at 3 in at least .
Shouldn't he have been lbearing in mind getting the best price for the club when he demonstrably set a much too small budget in the summer? 3+ more players back then might have made us much more competitive throughout the season so far.
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Why bizarre? A 2 year stay will mean he kept us up and had a successful 21/22 campaign. If it upsets the Bilić fanclub that Albion are doing well then who's outlook is odd?
I was saying it’s bizarre to want a manager to stay on just to annoy fans. I wasn’t considering that him staying for two years means we stay up or otherwise. Calm it.
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Shouldn't he have been lbearing in mind getting the best price for the club when he demonstrably set a much too small budget in the summer? 3+ more players back then might have made us much more competitive throughout the season so far.
Definitely, but would you agree there was a clear divide/dispute between Bilić and Dowling over transfer targets and transfer market strategy? I see no reason not to accept the Athletic article view that they just gave up on Slaven after an irreparable breakdown in the working relationship.
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I was saying it’s bizarre to want a manager to stay on just to annoy fans. I wasn’t considering that him staying for two years means we stay up or otherwise. Calm it.
I'm perfectly calm Frazzle. Perhaps worth elucidation of the point as opposed to a one word post then?
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Definitely, but would you agree there was a clear divide/dispute between Bilić and Dowling over transfer targets and transfer market strategy? I see no reason not to accept the Athletic article view that they just gave up on Slaven after an irreparable breakdown in the working relationship.
The dispute arose with Bilic's annoyance at the board for not investing more in the squad. He wanted a higher calibre of player brought in. He warned them their poundland strategy was doomed to fail. He was right and the board was wrong.
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I'm perfectly calm Frazzle. Perhaps worth elucidation of the point as opposed to a one word post then?
Fair enough. I thought it was clear but I’ll elucidate further next time as I think it’s a forum rule to try not to have one word replies. Thanks for picking up my error.
So where are we with Allardyce do you think? He has a record of having poor starts but then turning things around. Do you think that together with the funds provided by the club he will turn it around?
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The dispute arose with Bilic's annoyance at the board for not investing more in the squad. He wanted a higher calibre of player brought in. He warned them their poundland strategy was doomed to fail. He was right and the board was wrong.
This, I do agree with.
The issue over player recruitment can be traced back to the previous summer with Zohore.
We can argue for and against the tactical limitations of both Bilic and Allardyce but it is clear their views on recruitment are on a different pedestal to those of the board.
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The dispute arose with Bilic's annoyance at the board for not investing more in the squad. He wanted a higher calibre of player brought in. He warned them their poundland strategy was doomed to fail. He was right and the board was wrong.
Totally agree, particularly signing players the manager doesn't want and selling players behind his back. There was clearly no trust there.
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This, I do agree with.
The issue over player recruitment can be traced back to the previous summer with Zohore.
We can argue for and against the tactical limitations of both Bilic and Allardyce but it is clear their views on recruitment are on a different pedestal to those of the board.
And this is why I just don’t get the Allardyce approach. I get that if the stories are true Bilic wasn’t going to extend his contract, but if that’s the case, and looking at the squad and players we have, why not bring in someone who has a style of play better suited and therefore potentially requiring less investment. Instead we have Allardyce who will need huge salaries and investment to get a squad he wants. It’s just not a good match in my view.
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Fair enough. I thought it was clear but I’ll elucidate further next time as I think it’s a forum rule to try not to have one word replies. Thanks for picking up my error.
So where are we with Allardyce do you think? He has a record of having poor starts but then turning things around. Do you think that together with the funds provided by the club he will turn it around?
I'd expected us to be tighter at the back although we have got 1 more point than I anticipated. He's known to start slowly as you said.
I feel we've got a better chance than we had previously. A lot depends on how the current players take instruction in the next couple of weeks and yes how we pull up in the window. He definitely needs an energetic shielding DM and a solid RB. A target man and a commanding centre back are the other 2 roles I'd say are "must find".
The owner is clearly desperate to stay in this division. We will find out in the next 4 weeks exactly how desperate.
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I'd expected us to be tighter at the back although we have got 1 more point than I anticipated. He's known to start slowly as you said.
I feel we've got a better chance than we had previously. A lot depends on how the current players take instruction in the next couple of weeks and yes how we pull up in the window. He definitely needs an energetic shielding DM and a solid RB. A target man and a commanding centre back are the other 2 roles I'd say are "must find".
The owner is clearly desperate to stay in this division. We will find out in the next 4 weeks exactly how desperate.
What worries me is the lack of any visible plan currently, and the millions he has been able to spend in the examples BT sport put up after the game. From recollection at Palace it looked like he spent 30-40m. No chance of anything like that with us.
Hopefully by the Wolves game we will be able to lock down the defence and the bore our way to safety but I don’t think it will happen unfortunately.
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The dispute arose with Bilic's annoyance at the board for not investing more in the squad. He wanted a higher calibre of player brought in. He warned them their poundland strategy was doomed to fail. He was right and the board was wrong.
It was done for from Bilic first summer window in my opinion. I do totally blame the board for this not Bilic but it was already not working between them then.
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And this is why I just don’t get the Allardyce approach. I get that if the stories are true Bilic wasn’t going to extend his contract, but if that’s the case, and looking at the squad and players we have, why not bring in someone who has a style of play better suited and therefore potentially requiring less investment. Instead we have Allardyce who will need huge salaries and investment to get a squad he wants. It’s just not a good match in my view.
And those are concerns I appreciate. This is not going to be a happy marriage but they seldom are at this club.
I think the board have taken the stance that it’s better the devil and see where we end up. I certainly don’t want the long term future of the club being shaped by Alladyce, but the club are of the opinion that in the short term he can make a fist of it.
It would have been an uncomfortable job for a future up and coming manager to take. On a ride of numerous hidings ahead of a rebuild in the summer. No time for a honeymoon period there without any supportive capital in the bank.
My overall opinion is that our January window will be a mess, Allardyce will not get what he wants and will resign in March to protect his firefighter reputation. Burton and Morrison will the season out.
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And those are concerns I appreciate. This is not going to be a happy marriage but they seldom are at this club.
I think the board have taken the stance that it’s better the devil and see where we end up. I certainly don’t want the long term future of the club being shaped by Alladyce, but the club are of the opinion that in the short term he can make a fist of it.
It would have been an uncomfortable job for a future up and coming manager to take. On a ride of numerous hidings ahead of a rebuild in the summer. No time for a honeymoon period there without any supportive capital in the bank.
My overall opinion is that our January window will be a mess, Allardyce will not get what he wants and will resign in March to protect his firefighter reputation. Burton and Morrison will the season out.
Yep, that's pretty much the way I see it, the only good thing is, we have a younger squad who may be able to gel next season.
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I also think Allardyce will walk before the end of the season.
Would be interesting to read his interviews from his early Palace/Sunderland days to see if he was saying similar things to what he is now when he first took over and had poor results.
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I also think Allardyce will walk before the end of the season.
Would be interesting to read his interviews from his early Palace/Sunderland days to see if he was saying similar things to what he is now when he first took over and had poor results.
I think he'll probably work his ticket. I.E. put the club in a position whereby he gets the sack.
I would imagine he won't want to be in the hot seat when we drop into the Championship.
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And those are concerns I appreciate. This is not going to be a happy marriage but they seldom are at this club.
I think the board have taken the stance that it’s better the devil and see where we end up. I certainly don’t want the long term future of the club being shaped by Alladyce, but the club are of the opinion that in the short term he can make a fist of it.
It would have been an uncomfortable job for a future up and coming manager to take. On a ride of numerous hidings ahead of a rebuild in the summer. No time for a honeymoon period there without any supportive capital in the bank.
My overall opinion is that our January window will be a mess, Allardyce will not get what he wants and will resign in March to protect his firefighter reputation. Burton and Morrison will the season out.
If SA does manage to make a fist of it & keep us up, it's inconceivable that he wouldn't be given a contract extension.
The number one priority for the current owner is to retain EPL status, why would he put that at risk.
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I'd expected us to be tighter at the back although we have got 1 more point than I anticipated. He's known to start slowly as you said.
That makes no sense whatsoever stating Allardyce has basically exceeded expectations after 4 games by getting 1 point rather than 0. 75% of those ganes were at home and the GD in those games is 0-12.
The much maligned Bilic got a draw at the best team in the league (Man City) and was then dismissed!
No other way to put it we have been utterly embarrassing in those 3 home games. We have regressed under Allardyce. He's supposed to be this defensive tactical genius.
Oh hang on, its because they're not his players / players are unfit.
A good manager has multiple ways of playing as should play to the strengths of the playing staff. Allardyce didn't need to actually change the way of playing in these 4 games. As is happens, he's gone to the way he knows which is ultra defensive, boring, negative hoof ball, defendinf on the 18 yard line.
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And those are concerns I appreciate. This is not going to be a happy marriage but they seldom are at this club.
I think the board have taken the stance that it’s better the devil and see where we end up. I certainly don’t want the long term future of the club being shaped by Alladyce, but the club are of the opinion that in the short term he can make a fist of it.
It would have been an uncomfortable job for a future up and coming manager to take. On a ride of numerous hidings ahead of a rebuild in the summer. No time for a honeymoon period there without any supportive capital in the bank.
My overall opinion is that our January window will be a mess, Allardyce will not get what he wants and will resign in March to protect his firefighter reputation. Burton and Morrison will the season out.
I think that’s pretty much how I see the season turning out. Another year or poor management at every level, and then looking for another manager to take us back up again. Sadly whoever that is won’t be given a chance and if they do manage to get us back up they will be sacked immediately. As others have said in this thread, is the upper level managers and owners who are the problem as all they want are short term actions to maximise the value of the club for sale with minimal outlay which from a business point of view is understandable but doomed to failure through bad selections.
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I have to agree with Jacko, this was entirely predictable (and was predicted by a few on here)
Where I disagree is Jacko is confident that Allardyce will turn it about with some transfers, I vehemently disagree with this and the excuses are already being trotted out
a) squad worse than I thought
b) individual errors
c) Brexit, which he knew nothing about apparently
next will be Covid19, players he wants unavailable, club not providing funds, club dilly dallying (You would have to accept this one), Winter weather ..........
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I have to agree with Jacko, this was entirely predictable (and was predicted by a few on here)
Where I disagree is Jacko is confident that Allardyce will turn it about with some transfers, I vehemently disagree with this and the excuses are already being trotted out
a) squad worse than I thought
b) individual errors
c) Brexit, which he knew nothing about apparently
next will be Covid19, players he wants unavailable, club not providing funds, club dilly dallying (You would have to accept this one), Winter weather ..........
Almost half the season gone and we have 8 points?
We would need Messi and Ronaldo in to make us anything like competitive.
We know that won't happen.
I just hope we can scrape to double figures. Being in this position is humiliating enough without going down as being the worst team in Premier League history.
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Almost half the season gone and we have 8 points?
We would need Messi and Ronaldo in to make us anything like competitive.
We know that won't happen.
I just hope we can scrape to double figures. Being in this position is humiliating enough without going down as being the worst team in Premier League history.
Every time I’ve watched Sheffield Utd they look more competitive than us. All they need is a win and they will shoot right by us.
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Is there an argument that we were over achieving under Bilic and now what Allardyce is getting is more reflective of our "true" capability?
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I have to agree with Jacko, this was entirely predictable (and was predicted by a few on here)
Where I disagree is Jacko is confident that Allardyce will turn it about with some transfers, I vehemently disagree with this and the excuses are already being trotted out
a) squad worse than I thought
b) individual errors
c) Brexit, which he knew nothing about apparently
next will be Covid19, players he wants unavailable, club not providing funds, club dilly dallying (You would have to accept this one), Winter weather ..........
to be fair to Allardyce apart from brexit and covid19 all the other excuses seem reasonable, the squad is probably worse than he thought or certainly more unbalanced, individual errors have cost us in games: players being out of position, scoring own goals, getting sent , missing good chances to score etc, players may well not be available or want to come to us.
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Is there an argument that we were over achieving under Bilic and now what Allardyce is getting is more reflective of our "true" capability?
Not for me. Will be interesting to see our record after 26 games. I'm still confident we'll have more than 14 points (Slav seven points from 13 games).
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That makes no sense whatsoever stating Allardyce has basically exceeded expectations after 4 games by getting 1 point rather than 0. 75% of those ganes were at home and the GD in those games is 0-12.
The much maligned Bilic got a draw at the best team in the league (Man City) and was then dismissed!
No other way to put it we have been utterly embarrassing in those 3 home games. We have regressed under Allardyce. He's supposed to be this defensive tactical genius.
Oh hang on, its because they're not his players / players are unfit.
A good manager has multiple ways of playing as should play to the strengths of the playing staff. Allardyce didn't need to actually change the way of playing in these 4 games. As is happens, he's gone to the way he knows which is ultra defensive, boring, negative hoof ball, defendinf on the 18 yard line.
Frazzle asked me my thoughts on Allardyce. So they're neither right nor wrong merely my opinion.
Also, Liverpool are the best team in the league and by some distance.
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Shouldn't he have been lbearing in mind getting the best price for the club when he demonstrably set a much too small budget in the summer? 3+ more players back then might have made us much more competitive throughout the season so far.
To me clearly shows the break with the board , two forwards Bilic wanted were Ajeti from West Ham whose ended up at Celtic and hasn't done much in a pub league and a huge lump of a forward from Turkey who has barely played at Lazio since moving last time i checked a few months back.
I don't like Dowling much but I wouldn't be keen on those two either , add that to Bilic not being interested in a DM .
In hindsight there should have been a parting of ways earlier if it had really got that bad as Madeley claims.
I do wonder if some money was kept back as they felt things were going sour with Bilic.
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To me clearly shows the break with the board , two forwards Bilic wanted were Ajeti from West Ham whose ended up at Celtic and hasn't done much in a pub league and a huge lump of a forward from Turkey who has barely played at Lazio since moving last time i checked a few months back.
I don't like Dowling much but I wouldn't be keen on those two either , add that to Bilic not being interested in a DM .
In hindsight there should have been a parting of ways earlier if it had really got that bad as Madeley claims.
I do wonder if some money was kept back as they felt things were going sour with Bilic.
I hadn't considered that and its an interesting train of thought, personally, I doubt that our hierarchy are that well versed in the dark art of planning but maybe I will see floods of ackers arriving at Allardyces door and be proven wrong
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Frazzle asked me my thoughts on Allardyce. So they're neither right nor wrong merely my opinion.
Also, Liverpool are the best team in the league and by some distance.
LOL. The same Liverpool that lost 7-2 at Aston Villa. Not without VVD they're not. Also noticed they had Miler, Henderson and Jones in midfield the other day, WTF. Man City have the best players, and the defence is now sorted. Liverpool just drew at with WBA and Newcastle back to back!
You are so wrong on Allardyce, he hasn't got a clue. Already public shamed the players to hammer their confidence further. He was given substantial funds at Palace and Everton.
Shortly I'm standing by for the incoming Andy Carroll, Phil Jones, James Tomkins. How about buying some technical players from La Liga who can actually pass and move?
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For all the talk about Bilic and Allardyce, it all boils down to one thing and it will be the downfall of both. MONEY. Plain and simple.
As bad as we are right now, if this squad had started in the Championship this year, I would be amazed if we were not, at least, top 4. It's just the gulf between the two divisions is massive and, as a club, we don't have the funds to compete.
I fully expect Norwich to gain automatic promotion, despite going down with just 21 points last year. Will they fare any better next season though, probably not, unless they find a pot of gold.
The likes of Ajayi, Grant, Townsend, Diangana, Pereira along with maybe Kipre, Diaby, Field , Edwards will all more than hold their own in the Champ.
Us being in the greed league is like trying to push a very large boulder up a hill, with one arm tied behind our backs whilst, the league itself, referees, Sky and VAR pelt us with custard pies. It would be easier to conquer Takeshi's Castle ;)
Roll on August.
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He's got till the 16th to find some kind of formula to give us the snowball in hell's chance we are hoping for
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Big Sam wouldnt of been my choice and i think there were more suitable candidates to go with the squad we have.
That said, to be fair to him he wont of spent long on the training ground so far to get his ideas across, he has a way of playing and it needs to be worked on at training.
Assuming they were off yesterday, as of today i would have them in for double sessions this week, we arent unfit as such but we dont look as fit or quick as other teams, i would hope our sports science teams have programmes to improve that, beasting the players would serve nu purpose.
Then in the afternoons i would be putting on sessions focused solely on organisation and setup, it may not he exciting but thats what Big Sam does and we need a crash course in it.
I would do that for 5 days this week, morning and afternoon, a lot of it will be walking through stuff and setup so two sessions wont tire them too much (such is the modern day footballer)
I would play the strongest team available at Blackpool, its a chance to put into practice what has been worked on during the week against a non premier league team, we should be strong enough to overcome a lower side and any win at the moment would help, i would give the players an incentive of two full days off if they win (i think we will put the reserves out and probably lose, i am not fussed about the league, i know as a club we need to be there but as a fan it bores me stupid but i would love a cup run)
Then get them in for double sessions again leading upto the Wolves game, it should show a bit about the players character too, if they moan about double sessions which should help them in trying to stay in the league then i would question whether they are right for us whichever league we are in.
I know for a fact when Roy come in, he spent loads of time on the training ground just walking through plays, focusing on organisation, the defenders loved it, the attackers not so much but they saw the benefits so they brought into it, Big Sam needs the players to buy into and them to give it a chance on the training pitch.
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I'm not Sam's biggest fan but he does have a history of getting player into clubs.
I just hope that in his time out he hasn't lost his little black book!
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I'm not Sam's biggest fan but he does have a history of getting player into clubs.
I just hope that in his time out he hasn't lost his little black book!
He who must not be mentioned in a cap could get bigger names in too . :D Fingers crossed.
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He was also banging on before the game about the players capitulating to Leeds due to lack of recovery time. Yet it was him who decided to pick an unchanged side that lacked legs.
To be fair to him the squad's thinner than a teenage Kate Moss. I can't imagine the "other half" of the squad having done any better that the regular first team.
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To be fair to him the squad's thinner than a teenage Kate Moss. I can't imagine the "other half" of the squad having done any better that the regular first team.
We had Pereira, Krov and Grosicki on the bench. All 3 could and should have started.
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To be fair to him the squad's thinner than a teenage Kate Moss. I can't imagine the "other half" of the squad having done any better that the regular first team.
I'm of the mind get him 3 or 4 players then judge him , it won't be pretty I know plus a good stint on the training ground .
Mind you I gave fair chance to Pardew , Mel , Irvine.... :o ;D
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Too right we need a strong team out v. Blackpool. How a out we go out to win that match convincingly.
Right now we're staring right down the barrel for Dingle revenge over the 1-5.
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We had Pereira, Krov and Grosicki on the bench. All 3 could and should have started.
Pereira started against Arsenal. Krovinovic is very hit and miss and it's debatable whether he's an improvement on Sawyers (he's not an improvement on Gallagher). I'd agree on Grosicki he should be getting game time but for some reason neither Bilic or now Allardyce have given him game time ;in Allardyce's case he maybe knows that Grosicki is off in Jan so why use a player that won't be here for much longer and wasn't fancied by the previous manager.
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We had Pereira, Krov and Grosicki on the bench. All 3 could and should have started.
But who would have played in defence? Who do you replace Gallagher with? A number of the usual suspects aren't currently able to play at this level but they keep being selected because they're better than the alternatives. And yes, you're right, one or two of the names you mention would be the first names on my team sheet.
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It would have been an uncomfortable job for a future up and coming manager to take. On a ride of numerous hidings ahead of a rebuild in the summer. No time for a honeymoon period there without any supportive capital in the bank.
I disagree an "up and coming" manager would have found it uncomfortable due to lacking "supportive capital" (I'm assuming you mean with the fans rather than any actual money), if he had good communication with the fans, had the team playing "the right way", clearly had a plan how to take us forward, maybe had an Albion connection, and so on. Results would have been nice, but I think most of us are already resigned to relegation anyway and I think we (the fans) would be lenient if we could see those things above and that relegation wasn't the end it was just another stop on the journey.
Why I think there's a section of the fanbase that are so anti-Allardyce is that he's none of those things. Unable to see past his own way of playing, doesn't communicate well with the fans, criticises the players in public instead of behind closed doors, is going to leave if we get relegated, and his "Albion connection" is to say he'd never work for the club again after being sacked last time, and then, when a wad of cash was waved under his nose, went back on his own words.
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But who would have played in defence? Who do you replace Gallagher with? A number of the usual suspects aren't currently able to play at this level but they keep being selected because they're better than the alternatives. And yes, you're right, one or two of the names you mention would be the first names on my team sheet.
I agree Defensively we have very few options. I hope to see 2/3 new additions at the back as I’m not convinced this lot can be coached to perform to how Allardyce wants.
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To me clearly shows the break with the board , two forwards Bilic wanted were Ajeti from West Ham whose ended up at Celtic and hasn't done much in a pub league and a huge lump of a forward from Turkey who has barely played at Lazio since moving last time i checked a few months back.
I don't like Dowling much but I wouldn't be keen on those two either , add that to Bilic not being interested in a DM .
In hindsight there should have been a parting of ways earlier if it had really got that bad as Madeley claims.
I do wonder if some money was kept back as they felt things were going sour with Bilic.
I don't know one way or the other, but I've seen it said that Bilic did want a DM but the funds weren't there. He obviously wasn't willing to do this at the expense of signing Krovinovic though, which is a mistake in hindsight, although no doubt part of the reason for bringing Krovinovic back was because Bilic felt it would help the morale of the squad.
Either the board should have backed Bilic fully in the summer or sacked him then. The halfway house that it looks like they might have chosen was only ever likely to see us doing as badly as we are.
Unfortunately, with Allardyce only looking for short-term fixes, it leaves us with yet another major rebuilding job at the end of the season whatever division we're in. Dowling shouldn't still be here for that, IMO, even if Lai is. We need someone with vision and strategic nous leading the playing strategy/recruitment aspect, not someone who can't see beyond a constant firefighting approach.
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I can't imagine the "other half" of the squad having done any better that the regular first team.
Given just how awful things have been since Allardyce arrived, it's high time that the remainder of the squad should be given a chance to show what it can do. It can't be any worse than our current results and at least we'd know, rather than having to imagine, whethere or not some of them at least are better than players being picked for every game who clearly don't currently deserve a place in the side.
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Given just how awful things have been since Allardyce arrived, it's high time that the remainder of the squad should be given a chance to show what it can do. It can't be any worse than our current results and at least we'd know, rather than having to imagine, whethere or not some of them at least are better than players being picked for every game who clearly don't currently deserve a place in the side.
I'm guessing that's what SA thought when he went to watch the stiffs play Stoke....only to see them 4-0 down at half time. The fact only the young French lad even made the bench since tells you everything.
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Given just how awful things have been since Allardyce arrived, it's high time that the remainder of the squad should be given a chance to show what it can do. It can't be any worse than our current results and at least we'd know, rather than having to imagine, whethere or not some of them at least are better than players being picked for every game who clearly don't currently deserve a place in the side.
Nothing to lose now, may as well try anything. No point chucking money or long term contracts at anyone, just bolster what we have with a few short term signings and try and restore some pride.
Not sure I want survival if it means committing to Allardyce anyway. I would settle for relegation and a flukey win against the dingles.
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I don't know one way or the other, but I've seen it said that Bilic did want a DM but the funds weren't there. He obviously wasn't willing to do this at the expense of signing Krovinovic though, which is a mistake in hindsight, although no doubt part of the reason for bringing Krovinovic back was because Bilic felt it would help the morale of the squad.
Either the board should have backed Bilic fully in the summer or sacked him then. The halfway house that it looks like they might have chosen was only ever likely to see us doing as badly as we are.
Unfortunately, with Allardyce only looking for short-term fixes, it leaves us with yet another major rebuilding job at the end of the season whatever division we're in. Dowling shouldn't still be here for that, IMO, even if Lai is. We need someone with vision and strategic nous leading the playing strategy/recruitment aspect, not someone who can't see beyond a constant firefighting approach.
I'd lean towards Bilic not being interested in a DM as said in Madeleys post sacking piece , I'd also go on his history of Livermore / Sawyers nearly every game even when it started to fail . I posted it at the time and i'll stand by my view to bring in Krov again instead of a DM or somebody to actually go in the first team was naive from Bilic with limited funds. Thats a lot of money a week for morale .
My view maybe old fashioned but I'm getting sick of our managers and technical directors being on a different page regarding players , I believe we have a few promising players in O'Shea , Furlong , Semi and Townsend who lack experience rather than ability . Easy to look back now but 3 or 4 older heads who know this level was what was needed in my view to help these lads through . Now they look like rabbits in headlights and I believe Allardyce will try to get that sort of player in .
My hope is we do bring these in on sensible contracts , stay up , the club gets sold and Dowling departs.
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I'm guessing that's what SA thought when he went to watch the stiffs play Stoke....only to see them 4-0 down at half time. The fact only the young French lad even made the bench since tells you everything.
I've seen those highlights , Kipre and Peltier.
Dear me. :-X
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I disagree an "up and coming" manager would have found it uncomfortable due to lacking "supportive capital" (I'm assuming you mean with the fans rather than any actual money)
Yes, that’s entirely what I mean.
This season is going to be fraught with plenty of anger and annoyance as it progresses as we will no doubt take a few more hidings. I think it’s unfair to ask and up and coming manager (I’m guessing that’s our next approach) to go into the lions den where’s there supporter apathy and frustration whilst we continue to get our stomachs tickled. When the close season appears that manager is going to be subject to criticism about whether he is the right person to rebuild a club and we do not need that heading into next season.
Going fresh with this season behind us on a clean slate is a much fairer task for our future head coach.
As an example, Farke has plenty of capital in the bank with supporters but he was not absconded from criticism when this season started. There were rumours of him being touted for the sack though perseverance has enabled him to turn the tide.
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If SA does manage to make a fist of it & keep us up, it's inconceivable that he wouldn't be given a contract extension.
The number one priority for the current owner is to retain EPL status, why would he put that at risk.
And if Sam does keep us up then he has quite rightly earned himself another 12 months at the helm.
I wouldn’t have an issue with that.
I think we have to be careful that we do not fall into the same trap with Pulis in keeping him longer than necessary as when we eventually parted ways it turned into a mess.
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With what the board have done to all recent Albion managers, the saying "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear", is applied.
They only have a sow's ear.
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And if Sam does keep us up then he has quite rightly earned himself another 12 months at the helm.
I wouldn’t have an issue with that.
I think we have to be careful that we do not fall into the same trap with Pulis in keeping him longer than necessary as when we eventually parted ways it turned into a mess.
I don't think you have to worry on that score chap
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Brunt's contract at Bristol City cancelled. We are heading for the dream team of , Appleton, Brunt, & Morrison.
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Brunt's contract at Bristol City cancelled. We are heading for the dream team of , Appleton, Brunt, & Morrison.
No. What makes you think it's a dream team!? Especially with our squad. Nothing to say Morrison and Brunt will make good coaches and i'd hope they will learn there trade first.
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No. What makes you think it's a dream team!? Especially with our squad. Nothing to say Morrison and Brunt will make good coaches and i'd hope they will learn there trade first.
I think he was being sarcastic (apologies if I read it wrong)
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Brunt's contract at Bristol City cancelled. We are heading for the dream team of , Appleton, Brunt, & Morrison.
sorry i shouldn't have replied to your post not allowed to discuss new coaches/ managers. As we already have one!
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No. What makes you think it's a dream team!? Especially with our squad. Nothing to say Morrison and Brunt will make good coaches and i'd hope they will learn there trade first.
Nothing to suggest they wont make good coach's either.
Who has more experience than the likes of Pardew, Pulis and now Sam, and that hasn't got us very far has it.
Not saying we should have Brunty and co but I doubt if they could do any worse. I would imagine that they have the necessary badges to go into coaching anyway.
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sorry i shouldn't have replied to your post not allowed to discuss new coaches/ managers. As we already have one!
If I thought it was a serious suggestion I would have deleted it.
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Nothing to suggest they wont make good coach's either.
Who has more experience than the likes of Pardew, Pulis and now Sam, and that hasn't got us very far has it.
Not saying we should have Brunty and co but I doubt if they could do any worse. I would imagine that they have the necessary badges to go into coaching anyway.
isn't Morrison already part of the first team coaching staff anyway?
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Brunt's contract at Bristol City cancelled. We are heading for the dream team of , Appleton, Brunt, & Morrison.
Oh come one, we know Brunty can't play central midfield!
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I think he was being sarcastic (apologies if I read it wrong)
Thats correct Hull. Were that to happen i think I would have to seriously consider whether to renew my (51 years old ) season ticket.
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Looks like a difficult job has just got a little bit harder
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396 (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/three-players-sam-allardyce-makes-19555396)
Did we really interview Sam for this job?
In case anyone has forgotten or didn't know, there's a big irony regarding Allardyce's current frustration over Brexit causing problems with signing players from abroad, as he is/was an enthusiastic Brexiteer. In October 2019 he said: "I’m a Brexiteer from the very beginning".
Source: Unity News Network (https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/big-sam-allardyce-slams-owen-jones-demands-that-brexit-be-delivered/)
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Frazzle asked me my thoughts on Allardyce. So they're neither right nor wrong merely my opinion.
Also, Liverpool are the best team in the league and by some distance.
I’m not as convinced by that as you are. I did pm you by the way re 15 points clear etc... heard nothing since.
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In case anyone has forgotten or didn't know, there's a big irony regarding Allardyce's current frustration over Brexit causing problems with signing players from abroad, as he is/was an enthusiastic Brexiteer. In October 2019 he said: "I’m a Brexiteer from the very beginning".
Source: Unity News Network (https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/big-sam-allardyce-slams-owen-jones-demands-that-brexit-be-delivered/)
It's worrying when people are voting on issues they don't fully understand.
It's even more worrying when they don't understand how the issues they are voting on affect their own industry.
It's even more worrying than that when those people are managing the football club you support.
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Allardyce can vote anyway he wants he can offer up his opinion on any issue of the day which is his right as much it is mine. What he cannot do is sit on his backside and not pay attention to the issues that are happening in his industry and expect respect as a Senior Management figure in that industry where he is routinely paid literally millions for the privilege.
I posted on the likely impact of the new work permit rules on 5th December which was 2 days after they were published by the FA I might not have been entirely right because they are complicated and I ain't a professional so at the beginning of January Allardyce being surprised to find that some of the players being bought to him by his agent cronies don't qualify under the rules is just inept.
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Cant help but feel more is being made of this than is there tbh. Enquire about player, find out they can't get WP, move on. Leak to press to suggest you're already being proactive regards incoming players, no one has been taken by surprise imo...
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Allardyce can vote anyway he wants he can offer up his opinion on any issue of the day which is his right as much it is mine. What he cannot do is sit on his backside and not pay attention to the issues that are happening in his industry and expect respect as a Senior Management figure in that industry where he is routinely paid literally millions for the privilege.
I posted on the likely impact of the new work permit rules on 5th December which was 2 days after they were published by the FA I might not have been entirely right because they are complicated and I ain't a professional so at the beginning of January Allardyce being surprised to find that some of the players being bought to him by his agent cronies don't qualify under the rules is just inept.
I bet he knows how many shekels / dinar / lev his agent friends can "earn" representing their clients interests though.
He will be keen as mustard to get some transfer business concluded to "strengthen the team", I'm sure.
Please Note:- for the avoidance of doubt, those are 2 separate paragraphs and no linkage is inferred !!
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Cant help but feel more is being made of this than is there tbh. Enquire about player, find out they can't get WP, move on. Leak to press to suggest you're already being proactive regards incoming players, no one has been taken by surprise imo...
Can't help but think you're over analysing things. He's a thick, fat, gammon boomer off the Wrenna who doesn't know what he voted for (apparently) and dreams of a team from the Flintstones. Get with the narrative ;) .
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Allardyce can vote anyway he wants he can offer up his opinion on any issue of the day which is his right as much it is mine. What he cannot do is sit on his backside and not pay attention to the issues that are happening in his industry and expect respect as a Senior Management figure in that industry where he is routinely paid literally millions for the privilege.
I posted on the likely impact of the new work permit rules on 5th December which was 2 days after they were published by the FA I might not have been entirely right because they are complicated and I ain't a professional so at the beginning of January Allardyce being surprised to find that some of the players being bought to him by his agent cronies don't qualify under the rules is just inept.
What's more inept, is, the topic clearly wasn't approached when our Senior Management team discussed the job with him.
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Cant help but feel more is being made of this than is there tbh. Enquire about player, find out they can't get WP, move on. Leak to press to suggest you're already being proactive regards incoming players, no one has been taken by surprise imo...
If you are right, the leak to the press backfired big time. Rather than showing he was being proactive it merely showed that he was completely inept and didn't know what he was doing.
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If you are right, the leak to the press backfired big time. Rather than showing he was being proactive it merely showed that he was completely inept and didn't know what he was doing.
As seen from my and Dan's post... depends entirely on your pre conceived view of the guy ;)
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Can't help but think you're over analysing things. He's a thick, fat, gammon boomer off the Wrenna who doesn't know what he voted for (apparently) and dreams of a team from the Flintstones. Get with the narrative ;) .
LOL!! Picture I get on this and the "coronavirus" thread by the "experts" on the NHS ! I.E. They did not do not know! What they voted for. Well he and they should find out before spouting off.
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As seen from my and Dan's post... depends entirely on your pre conceived view of the guy ;)
Nothing to do with a preconceived view. It wasn't one of us who was bleating to the press about not being able to get 3 players he had identified because of Brexit. It was SA himself. Just made him look silly really, and the stick he got on here from some people for it was justified.
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If you are right, the leak to the press backfired big time. Rather than showing he was being proactive it merely showed that he was completely inept and didn't know what he was doing.
For a change I read the whole thread before replying, and found I don't have to.
Even if he knew what the situation was, moaning about it to the press makes it look like he didn't.
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And he's also become a bit of a laughing stock for it.
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Anybody read the John Percy article from late last night that can summarise?
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Anybody read the John Percy article from late last night that can summarise?
There was an article about Snodgrass I summarised in the transfer thread. Didn't see one about Allardyce?
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Anybody read the John Percy article from late last night that can summarise?
Wants Snodgrass and should be done in 48 hours. Will listen to offers for Austin and Grosicki and Krovinovic will also be allowed to leave. The rest was fluff really.
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Wants Snodgrass and should be done in 48 hours. Will listen to offers for Austin and Grosicki and Krovinovic will also be allowed to leave. The rest was fluff really.
Cheers for that. Gazberg - I posted the question as it looked like an all-encompassing article and what Allardyce and the club were planning for the month.
Disappointed to see Grosicki and Krov available but if he doesn't see them as his kind of players then fair enough.
Highlights a lot of the short termism that we have as a club but that's where we're at now, a similar place to when Pulis took over.
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Ok Lewisant, my apologies i misunderstood.
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Highlights a lot of the short termism that we have as a club but that's where we're at now, a similar place to when Pulis took over.
Both players were signed under Slaven Bilic and did not fit in with him either.
In hindsight, it is money we should have utilised elsewhere.
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I'm still not sure why Grosicki hasn't been given more game time under either manager, he defiantly needs to be playing football ahead of the Euros. Good look to him if he moves on this month.
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Cheers for that. Gazberg - I posted the question as it looked like an all-encompassing article and what Allardyce and the club were planning for the month.
Disappointed to see Grosicki and Krov available but if he doesn't see them as his kind of players then fair enough.
Highlights a lot of the short termism that we have as a club but that's where we're at now, a similar place to when Pulis took over.
It's a pity there isn't a more long-term strategy which should be coming from the Director of Football. So we get rid of Grosicki and Krovinovic and then appoint a new manager in the summer who wants to bring in this type of player. And we are saddled with whoever Allardyce imports. This chopping and changing is wasting money and resources and we never get to build for the future.
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It's a pity there isn't a more long-term strategy which should be coming from the Director of Football. So we get rid of Grosicki and Krovinovic and then appoint a new manager in the summer who wants to bring in this type of player. And we are saddled with whoever Allardyce imports. This chopping and changing is wasting money and resources and we never get to build for the future.
Agree that we need(ed) a longer term strategy; however with regard to Grosicki and Krovinovic and them leaving.
Grosicki would have been out of contract in the Summer anyway and would most likely have left and Krovinovic is only on loan so also would have left, so I don't see what the problem is with them leaving a bit earlier and freeing up space for players that will get game time. Neither Bilic or Allardyce seem keen to give Grosicki any game time and Krovinovic has been used mainly as a sub by both Bilic and Allardyce.
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Hi all West Ham fan here.
I may ruffle a few feathers here...but here goes :)
I'm one West Ham fan that will say Big Sam saved our bacon.
Yes he does set his sides up to not be the most attractive to watch. But what he does do is make your team hard to beat.
When he took over here we were in the championship. He managed to get us promoted in his first season.
The club as a whole ,when he took over, was on its knees.
He established us as a Premiership team on a shoe string budget too.
Ok he didn't win over many fans for the style of football he dealt up. But whatever anyone says he left West Ham United football club in a better position when he left than when he walked through the door.
With Sam you get what it say's on the tin.
I hope he keeps you up...in fact i'm sure he will.
Good luckfor the rest of the season.
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Hi all West Ham fan here.
I may ruffle a few feathers here...but here goes :)
I'm one West Ham fan that will say Fat Sam saved our bacon.
Yes he does set his sides up to not be the most attractive to watch. But what he does do is make your team hard to beat.
When he took over here we were in the championship. He managed to get us promoted in his first season.
The club as a whole ,when he took over, was on its knees.
He established us as a Premiership team on a shoe string budget too.
Ok he didn't win over many fans for the style of football he dealt up. But whatever anyone says he left West Ham United football club in a better position when he left than when he walked through the door.
With Sam you get what it say's on the tin.
I hope he keeps you up...in fact i'm sure he will.
Good luckfor the rest of the season.
Thanks much appreciated. I think it takes him a few matches to get his philosophy across and the thrashings from CP, Villa and Leeds are hard to take but we need to keep the faith as you did last year and the year before.
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But what he does do is make your team hard to beat.
At the moment he's changed very little - we still ship goals by the bucketful, still can't score, and are still playing the same players albeit in a somewhat different style (which is chaos because the players don't know it and aren't suited to it), and so we're still losing pretty much every game.
Hope you stick around, it's always interesting to talk to fans of other clubs :)
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At the moment he's changed very little - we still ship goals by the bucketful, still can't score, and are still playing the same players albeit in a somewhat different style (which is chaos because the players don't know it and aren't suited to it), and so we're still losing pretty much every game.
Hope you stick around, it's always interesting to talk to fans of other clubs :)
Got to get his type of player in to change things mate. Bilics boys are not Allardyce boys.
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With Sam you get what it say's on the tin.
I hope he keeps you up...in fact i'm sure he will.
Good luckfor the rest of the season.
Thanks for posting. As already said it's good to hear from other clubs and their supporters - especially when they are from a 'real' club if you know what I mean.
I hope that you are right; I would be more than happy to be proven wrong about him. Out of interest, many of us seem to have felt the same warmth to Slaven Bilic as was seen over at your club... wondered what your thoughts are about what made the wheels come off?
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Got to get his type of player in to change things mate. Bilics boys are not Allardyce boys.
I remember when people said that about Pulis
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I remember when people said that about Pulis
Yes and it worked.
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Yes and it worked.
For a while, until he got more of his own players, then it rapidly went t#ts up
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For a while, until he got more of his own players, then it rapidly went t#ts up
Agreement in part. We stuck with Pulis too long. To give the man that new contract after his terrible run was insane. He didnt even want to sign until he lost his court case. The lazy sods in charge will mess it up though at the slightest chance.
We should have walked away from each other the season we were free of obligation to each other. Appointing him wasn't the mistake, going too far down the Pulis way was.
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Yes and it worked.
That’s open to opinions. Not for me it didn’t.
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Agreement in part. We stuck with Pulis too long. To give the man that new contract after his terrible run was insane. He didnt even want to sign until he lost his court case. The lazy sods in charge will mess it up though at the slightest chance.
We should have walked away from each other the season we were free of obligation to each other. Appointing him wasn't the mistake, going too far down the Pulis way was.
Completely agree with that fella
Appointing Pulis was fine, once we had stabilised we should have gotten rid not given him a longer contract.
We’d still have be a Prem club now without the relegation I think had we done that
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That’s open to opinions. Not for me it didn’t.
We stayed up which was the point of appointing him IMO after 'Awful' Alan Irvine. What were his objectives that he failed on for you?
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Completely agree with that fella
Appointing Pulis was fine, once we had stabilised we should have gotten rid not given him a longer contract.
We’d still have be a Prem club now without the relegation I think had we done that
100% agree mate. That contract was the start of our downfall. Lai's boys tried to get away with doing the least amount possible and stayed with Pulis when it made ZERO sense to and now we all pay the price.
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We stayed up which was the point of appointing him IMO after 'Awful' Alan Irvine. What were his objectives that he failed on for you?
Guilty of crimes against the sport I love. Yes we stayed up, but at what long term cost to the club?
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Guilty of crimes against the sport I love. Yes we stayed up, but at what long term cost to the club?
Ahh that's the blokes in charge fault for giving him a deal he never wanted. In agreement with you though on the sentiment.
If you were Pulis and you didn't want to be here but then lost a court case for millions and then WBA FC execs are rimming your backside with a fat new contract you are going to take it!
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Ahh that's the blokes in charge fault for giving him a deal he never wanted. In agreement with you though on the sentiment.
If you were Pulis and you didn't want to be here but then lost a court case for millions and then WBA FC execs are rimming your backside with a fat new contract you are going to take it!
Can't argue with that
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Guilty of crimes against the sport I love. Yes we stayed up, but at what long term cost to the club?
Who knows, and it's impossible to say. We could also have been relegated, given Pardew an entire season to get us relegated from the Championship and still be languishing there now.
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Can't argue with that
Thats why i have no problem with Sam on an 18month deal with a break clause. If we get to the end of the 18months and hand him a bumper new deal then i'd be worried unless we were flying in the PL by some miracle.
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At least we only let in 2 today...My goodness Snodgrass must be good :(
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Bilic was sacked for this?
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Bilic was sacked for this?
No Bilic was sacked for 10 wins in 37 games
The fact the players clearly arent good enough is down to Dowling and Slav
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Bilic was sacked for this?
Had Bilic been in charge of that their are certain supporters who would have been screaming what a disgraceful performance it was, yet many seem happy to accept this garbage under Allardyce.
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Thought he was brought in to stop us conceding goals? Another two gone in to day against a league 1 side. This season is getting beyond a joke.
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Had Bilic been in charge of that their are certain supporters who would have been screaming what a disgraceful performance it was, yet many seem happy to accept this garbage under Allardyce.
The fact we are performing like this and under slav too suggests the players are the problem
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So couldn't even beat a League 1 team with a full strength team.
The season is over - don't have a hope in hell of a league win.
How long does Allardyce get?
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The fact we are performing like this and under slav too suggests the players are the problem
Exactly what I’ve said since the start of the season.
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Think we are seeing the real value of Bilic now.
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The fact we are performing like this and under slav too suggests the players are the problem
league 1 players fitter than so called Premier league players :o
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So couldn't even beat a League 1 team with a full strength team.
The season is over - don't have a hope in hell of a league win.
How long does Allardyce get?
A side without a forward at all and holes still not sorted in the middle . While I'm open minded on any new manager and I do believe he needs his own players that is minus 1 point for Allardyce from me.
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Does anyone still think it was a good idea to sack Bilic and to appoint Allardyce?
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So couldn't even beat a League 1 team with a full strength team.
The season is over - don't have a hope in hell of a league win.
How long does Allardyce get?
I wouldn't call that a full strength team. Not defending Allardyce, who was as bad as his players again today and whi has had zero impact, but we didn't have a striker today which suggests one or two had CoVID (although we could have used an academy kid - no excuse why not).
I am struggling to see what Allardyce is bringing though. I thought "back to basics" was one of the easiest things to sort for new manager coming in but our defence has somehow got even worse under Allardyce.
Dreading the Wolves game now.
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Had Bilic been in charge of that their are certain supporters who would have been screaming what a disgraceful performance it was, yet many seem happy to accept this garbage under Allardyce.
Many?
Pretty much the whole forum are in unison that tonight’s performance was rubbish.
It almost feels like you’re trying to an incite an argument that is not there.
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Had Bilic been in charge of that their are certain supporters who would have been screaming what a disgraceful performance it was, yet many seem happy to accept this garbage under Allardyce.
Exactly, seems weird there's fans who think is all ok.
Wolves game could turn humiliating - we're conceding an average of 3 goals per game under this amazing tactician.
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Many?
Pretty much the whole forum are in unison that tonight’s performance was rubbish.
It almost feels like you’re trying to an incite an argument that is not there.
Not at all, I’m simply making the point that I have since the start of the season that this squad is nowhere near the level required to compete in the premier league.
It does not matter who is in charge they are one of the worst squads to ever play in the premier league and I blame the board.
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Exactly, seems weird there's fans who think is all ok.
Wolves game could turn humiliating - we're conceding an average of 3 goals per game under this amazing tactician.
They have to think it's all okay as they can't admit they got it completely wrong calling for Bilic to be sacked. You reap what you sow.
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At least we only conceded 2 a clear upswing.
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Not at all, I’m simply making the point that I have since the start of the season that this squad is nowhere near the level required to compete in the premier league.
It does not matter who is in charge they are one of the worst squads to ever play in the premier league and I blame the board.
I do not deny your loyalty to your argument - a valid post you’ve made throughout the entirety of the season.
Your post implied that supporters were accepting tonight because it was Allardyce and not Bilic, invoking the same repeated arguments between the factions of the fan base. That is clearly not the case given the widespread anger and frustration within the after match debate thread.
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They have to think it's all okay as they can't admit they got it completely wrong calling for Bilic to be sacked. You reap what you sow.
Considering we've been battered by virtually everyone since Bilic was sacked there does seem a lot of positivity.
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At least we only conceded 2 a clear upswing.
We conceded 6 if you include the penalties!
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Exceptionally poor from Allardyce so far:
Team selection: 0/10
Defensive shape and organisation: 0/10
Attacking pattens of play and goals: 0/10
In game management: 0/10
Man management and motivation: 0/10
Concerned I may have given him too many points.
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They have to think it's all okay as they can't admit they got it completely wrong calling for Bilic to be sacked. You reap what you sow.
I hate comments like this...
Very self righteous
Bilic had to go....form proved that
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I hate comments like this...
Very self righteous
Bilic had to go....form proved that
Bilic had to go...so we could decline further, brilliant well thought out strategy.
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They have to think it's all okay as they can't admit they got it completely wrong calling for Bilic to be sacked. You reap what you sow.
Bilic and Allardyce weren't the only 2 managers we could pick from.
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Does anyone still think it was a good idea to sack Bilic and to appoint Allardyce?
Didnt agree with it at the time but could I understand it yes however it's going the same way as the Pardew season. Mozza and Brunt in charge by February I reckon.
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Bilic and Allardyce weren't the only 2 managers we could pick from.
Only positive I can take is it could have been Mark Hughes ;D
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I hate comments like this...
Very self righteous
Bilic had to go....form proved that
But surely you only get rid if you replace him with someone who can do a better job. If we got a manager who played a similar style then I'd say fair enough, you could see the logic...
But we replaced him with a manager who plays PRECISELY the tactics that don't suit this squad. It was never going to work. Even allowing for that, what's Sam doing to lift the squad? Criticising them individually and as a group? Didn't see him cajoling or geeing up the players or anything during the game today - again. They've got a manger trying to get them to play in exactly the wrong way for them, and then chewing them out publicly when they don't perform.
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If you look at Blackpool, full of young good players, hungry, rejected by the likes of Liverpool and Man Utd, building for the future, chances our young players never get.
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But surely you only get rid if you replace him with someone who can do a better job. If we got a manager who played a similar style then I'd say fair enough, you could see the logic...
But we replaced him with a manager who plays PRECISELY the tactics that don't suit this squad. It was never going to work. Even allowing for that, what's Sam doing to lift the squad? Criticising them individually and as a group? Didn't see him cajoling or geeing up the players or anything during the game today - again. They've got a manger trying to get them to play in exactly the wrong way for them, and then chewing them out publicly when they don't perform.
thats spot on, I would suggest the squad is about 80% capable of performing in prem, Slav motivated them to 90%, Sam has reduced them to about 70% (so far)
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Only positive I can take is it could have been Mark Hughes ;D
;D ;D so true
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Bilic and Allardyce weren't the only 2 managers we could pick from.
This is entirely true it is a polarised and false choice.
However if you assemble a squad for Bilic it's probably not the smartest move to pass the squad to Allardyce. I understand the "his players" argument but we were never going to replace the whole squad in January. Equally tactical fit trumps all the ill defined notions of "Character" etc..
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thats spot on, I would suggest the squad is about 80% capable of performing in prem, Slav motivated them to 90%, Sam has reduced them to about 70% (so far)
That seems a fair appraisal, if the percentages might be a little high all round.
Don't forget this is the new manager bounce we're seeing. ;D
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Couldn't have picked a poorer fit to this bunch of players. Not a prayer Allardyce will keep us up, should've got someone in and looked at the long term plan instead of a short fix that'll cost us more and end up with overaged has beens on expensive contracts.
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But surely you only get rid if you replace him with someone who can do a better job. If we got a manager who played a similar style then I'd say fair enough, you could see the logic...
But we replaced him with a manager who plays PRECISELY the tactics that don't suit this squad. It was never going to work. Even allowing for that, what's Sam doing to lift the squad? Criticising them individually and as a group? Didn't see him cajoling or geeing up the players or anything during the game today - again. They've got a manger trying to get them to play in exactly the wrong way for them, and then chewing them out publicly when they don't perform.
Exactly right.
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The board have backed themselves into a corner with their decision to appoint Allardyce.
He has a way of playing which is completely at odds to the majority of our squads ‘abilities’. This season was always going to be hard, there are many things can lable at the players under Bilic, not fit enough, naive, along with the obvious not good enough but you couldnt fault their effort, they did their best.
Worryingly under Big Sam, that seems to of gone, 1 in 5 games we seemed to really try, the other 4 have been that bad it suggests the Liverpool game was more of a fluke.
The players just do not seem to of brought into his methods, its very Pardew esque, it says a lot about the players that is their attitude, its disgraceful but that seems to be the way it is.
For it to work, Allardyce needs 6 or 7 new players who play his way and can play pretty much straight away, i just dont see us getting that sort of backing. Its ok saying he will of learnt about them today, its not today, he has seen them nearly for a month now, its not 1 or 2 players, the majority of the squad just dont look arsed, he is shuffling the same pack unless he gets massive backing.
we either back him big and give him a chance of keeping us up but also knowing we may still end up relegated and lumbered with his players when he most likely walks at the end of the season if we do go down or we just go half hearted, continue to embarrass ourselves, he leaves probably next month or six weeks and the club is a shambles with no Darren Moore to come in and pick things up on and off the pitch.
The board went for a lazy option, they just looked who keeps people up without taking into account the type of players we had, i dont blame Allardyce, he was offered a well paid job with a big bonus, he would need his own players and time on the training ground, instead i think we will be caught somewhere inbetween which will be shocking.
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Exactly right.
What type of manager do people want.
Slav tried to get them to play football - didn’t work (in the premier)
Big Sam tries to be defensive - doesn’t work.
Players fault all day long. Doesn’t matter which manger and what style it seems. More investment needed. We have the lowest squad value in the Prem by 30mil.
(I know we should beat Blackpool before people jump in.)
The wrong owners at wrong time.
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Just goes to show what our top management is.
They don't look at the product, but keep changing the shelf stacker.
The product is rubbish and out of date.
Nobody can make a soufflé out of mouldy old bread.
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Just goes to show what our top management is.
They don't look at the product, but keep changing the shelf stacker.
The product is rubbish and out of date.
Nobody can make a soufflé out of mouldy old bread.
Exactly
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We simply look pathetic to be honest, devoid of ideas and weak (mentally and physically ). The squad we have meant this season was always going to be a big failure but we look like we're going to go down in an even worse manner than I expected under Bilic ( I had very very low , sub 20 point expectations so that's saying something). SA is the wrong man at the wrong time it seems so far........
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If I was Allardyce I'd make them jog behind bus
from Blackpool player's are clearly not fit enough
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"Having looked at the squad in full it's my job to raise as much money as I can and get in as many new players as I can"
Allardyce just or something very similar anyway. Would happily see at least 10 of them gone.
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What type of manager do people want.
Slav tried to get them to play football - didn’t work (in the premier)
Big Sam tries to be defensive - doesn’t work.
Players fault all day long. Doesn’t matter which manger and what style it seems. More investment needed. We have the lowest squad value in the Prem by 30mil.
(I know we should beat Blackpool before people jump in.)
The wrong owners at wrong time.
Eddie Howe? Anyone who could add a bit more motivation and steel to a team used to trying to control a game with possession. Instead we’ve given a physically light weight squad to a manager know for organisation and physicality. This isn’t really a dig at Allardyce, it’s the fact that it’s such an obvious mismatch that it was clear it won’t work. Baffling.
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"Having looked at the squad in full it's my job to raise as much money as I can and get in as many new players as I can"
Allardyce just or something very similar anyway. Would happily see at least 10 of them gone.
I would happily see a minimum of ten gone, however I would rather we had a long term plan in place to replace them.
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"Having looked at the squad in full it's my job to raise as much money as I can and get in as many new players as I can"
Allardyce just or something very similar anyway. Would happily see at least 10 of them gone.
Basically saying everyone is for sale then , ha ha, what a shambles we are, bet trev the shed is preparing to buy us as we speak
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Basically saying everyone is for sale then , ha ha, what a shambles we are, bet trev the shed is preparing to buy us as we speak
I like it. They are not worthy to play for the club and that's not based.in ability but their attitudes.
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Also said Austin off to QPR according to Masi
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I like it. They are not worthy to play for the club and that's not based.in ability but their attitudes.
I'd feel confident in replacing 10 if we had a bit of an idea of how we want the squad to look longer term - clearly Dowling has little idea or maybe input. I can only see SA being here months at most so worry he'll throw out the baby and bathwater. We have the nucleus of a good championship team and need a stronger spine for the EFL next year this season is finished already.
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I'd feel confident in replacing 10 if we had a bit of an idea of how we want the squad to look longer term - clearly Dowling has little idea or maybe input. I can only see SA being here months at most so worry he'll throw out the baby and bathwater. We have the nucleus of a good championship team and need a stronger spine for the EFL next year this season is finished already.
There is no long term till Lai is gone.
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Also said Austin off to QPR according to Masi
Should have been playing for us today regardless
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Never been keen on him but he is dealing with issues left behind from Bilic and Dowling , the huge hole in the middle being a big example . Get him the players he wants then i'll judge him.
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Eddie Howe? Anyone who could add a bit more motivation and steel to a team used to trying to control a game with possession. Instead we’ve given a physically light weight squad to a manager know for organisation and physicality. This isn’t really a dig at Allardyce, it’s the fact that it’s such an obvious mismatch that it was clear it won’t work. Baffling.
Would have been a good choice, wouldn’t have come to us in a relegation fight in my opinion. Should sacked Slav before the season started (in hindsight).
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Never been keen on him but he is dealing with issues left behind from Bilic and Dowling , the huge hole in the middle being a big example . Get him the players he wants then i'll judge him
Same, I was very happy with the appointment at the time (unpopular opinion I know)
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Should have been playing for us today regardless
Austins dead money. Knowing our luck he'd have got crocked and we'd be paying his 70k pw for nothing for the next 5 months.
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Same, I was very happy with the appointment at the time (unpopular opinion I know)
Wouldnt say I was happy mate but thats my view
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What type of manager do people want.
Slav tried to get them to play football - didn’t work (in the premier)
Big Sam tries to be defensive - doesn’t work.
Players fault all day long. Doesn’t matter which manger and what style it seems. More investment needed. We have the lowest squad value in the Prem by 30mil.
(I know we should beat Blackpool before people jump in.)
The wrong owners at wrong time.
I wouldn't say the player's fault - they're the quality they are. It's the board's fault for not making sure we had better players.
If the approach isn't going to work I'd rather we tried playing football. My preference would be, in order...
1) play nice football and stay up.
2) play poor football and stay up
3) play nice football and go down.
4) play poor football and go down.
We are doing 4), and in a big way. We all seem to agree we're going down - why go down playing horrible football and setting us up for watching horrible football with that kind of squad for the next few years?
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Austins dead money. Knowing our luck he'd have got crocked and we'd be paying his 70k pw for nothing for the next 5 months.
He is our player , he is our only available striker therefore he plays . He plays gets the winner another round perhaps live tv and prize money he’s got that money back . Better that than paying him to sit in the stand at QPR, likely I would think we are going to have to subsidise his wages anyway
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Would have been a good choice, wouldn’t have come to us in a relegation fight in my opinion. Should sacked Slav before the season started (in hindsight).
You'd never sack a manager who just got you promoted a year early into a 2 year plan. What we should have done (and not even hindsight), is back the manager in the summer. And if you can't back the manager the board should admit so and try and make sure you've got a long term plan in place.
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He is our player , he is our only available striker therefore he plays . He plays gets the winner another round perhaps live tv and prize money he’s got that money back . Better that than paying him to sit in the stand at QPR, likely I would think we are going to have to subsidise his wages anyway
I don't care who is our player if they are on stupid money and offer no value for that money. Dowlings daft deals needed to be outed where and when possible for me.
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Allardyce is the only person with the balls to attempt to get us out of this mess. He's swimming upstream but if we can get rid of the rubbish and bring in some quality we have a minuscule chance.
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Allardyce is the only person with the balls to attempt to get us out of this mess. He's swimming upstream but if we can get rid of the rubbish and bring in some quality we have a minuscule chance.
Too true. He's already called out half the garbage we've seen and known for 12 months and he hasn't been here a month yet
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Too true. He's already called out half the garbage we've seen and known for 12 months and he hasn't been here a month yet
Spot on. He may have lost the dressing room but we all know that the players deserve it. I understand he had a right go at Livermore during the game, and he wasn’t very secure after being sent off v Villa. I think he’ll look to offload him - maybe pick up £3-£4m from a Championship club. We can use that money. The whole place needs to change. I’d rather it wasn’t Sam doing it, but wholesale change is needed.
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You'd never sack a manager who just got you promoted a year early into a 2 year plan. What we should have done (and not even hindsight), is back the manager in the summer. And if you can't back the manager the board should admit so and try and make sure you've got a long term plan in place.
It was me and one or two others that said Bilić should have gone after the draw at home to QPR. Appoint a new manager straightaway in order to give them the summer to prepare for this season. Bilić was sacked too late and that’s entirely the boards fault.
If we were going to appoint Big Sam he really should have been here in late July, early August 2020. He was brave taking the job on when he did, I’ll say that!
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Too true. He's already called out half the garbage we've seen and known for 12 months and he hasn't been here a month yet
Yeah, can't wait to see him get rid of Diangana and Pierera and replace them with Nolan and Snodgrass - that'll be a great season in the Championship.
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Link to the Nolan source please
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Allardyce is the only person with the balls to attempt to get us out of this mess. He's swimming upstream but if we can get rid of the rubbish and bring in some quality we have a minuscule chance.
Too true. He's already called out half the garbage we've seen and known for 12 months and he hasn't been here a month yet
Spot on. He may have lost the dressing room but we all know that the players deserve it. I understand he had a right go at Livermore during the game, and he wasn’t very secure after being sent off v Villa. I think he’ll look to offload him - maybe pick up £3-£4m from a Championship club. We can use that money. The whole place needs to change. I’d rather it wasn’t Sam doing it, but wholesale change is needed.
3 superb posts back to back. I could not agree more.
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Yeah, can't wait to see him get rid of Diangana and Pierera and replace them with Nolan and Snodgrass - that'll be a great season in the Championship.
And you know full well that this will not be happening.
Cheap shot for a cheap shots sake.
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3 superb posts back to back. I could not agree more.
I certainly agree with the comment - I’d rather it wasn’t Sam doing it, but wholesale change is needed.
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And you know full well that this will not be happening.
Cheap shot for a cheap shots sake.
Do we? He's already said his job is to sell as many players as possible to raise funds to bring his own players in.
Do you really think, hand on heart, that Pierera and Diangana fit into Sam's style of play? Who will raise the most money for the most incoming transfers? Sam's never going to set us up to play in a style that will get the most out of those 2 players so why would he keep them around?
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Do we? He's already said his job is to sell as many players as possible to raise funds to bring his own players in.
Do you really think, hand on heart, that Pierera and Diangana fit into Sam's style of play? Who will raise the most money for the most incoming transfers? Sam's never going to set us up to play in a style that will get the most out of those 2 players so why would he keep them around?
Yes.
They are both long term investments. They will not be thrown under the bus to enable us to do some work this month. The club are already trying to get Pereira on a new deal which shows there is no intention of him going anywhere.
The players at risk are your Grosicki’s, Edwards, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs etc.
As for whether they fit his style - time will tell. Most of the opinions of those who have played under Sam have indicated he gets his teams to operate around their strengths and weaknesses. Pereira is undoubtedly a strength.
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Yes.
They are both long term investments. They will not be thrown under the bus to enable us to do some work this month. The club are already trying to get Pereira on a new deal which shows there is no intention of him going anywhere.
The players at risk are your Grosicki’s, Edwards, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs etc.
As for whether they fit his style - time will tell. Most of the opinions of those who have played under Sam have indicated he gets his teams to operate around their strengths and weaknesses. Pereira is undoubtedly a strength.
I hope you are correct, however me being a sceptic as regards the club at present I would suggest they want him to sign a long term deal in the knowledge it will increase his resale value.
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Yes.
They are both long term investments. They will not be thrown under the bus to enable us to do some work this month. The club are already trying to get Pereira on a new deal which shows there is no intention of him going anywhere.
The players at risk are your Grosicki’s, Edwards, Austin, Livermore, Gibbs etc.
As for whether they fit his style - time will tell. Most of the opinions of those who have played under Sam have indicated he gets his teams to operate around their strengths and weaknesses. Pereira is undoubtedly a strength.
I hope you're right. Don't get me wrong, I'd hate to lose either of those two (there's definitely a great player somewhere in Diangana).
But if you're told to raise funds, instead of scrambling around get a million or two for each of those, why not sell someone who can get you more than all those combined and doesn't fit into your team? Teams sell their best players to raise funds all the time.
I've not seen anything from the setups we've had from Sam so far that makes it look like he's going to try and get the best out of Pierere either. You're probably right about Sam operates his team around their strengths and weaknesses but...
a) that's why he gets rid of players who don't fit into his style and buys ones who does.
b) why on earth are we setting up to defend like mad in every Prem game?
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One player set up both of our goals and didn’t bottle his penalty.... Kamil Grosicki.
I only hope that Big Sam now gives him a decent run in the team because he at least has the attacking intent that is so lacking in so many of our so called forwards.
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I hope you are correct, however me being a sceptic as regards the club at present I would suggest they want him to sign a long term deal in the knowledge it will increase his resale value.
I think that is the case - but I don’t think he will go this month.
He might go in the summer if we’re relegated mind. Diangana will remain.
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I hope you're right. Don't get me wrong, I'd hate to lose either of those two (there's definitely a great player somewhere in Diangana).
But if you're told to raise funds, instead of scrambling around get a million or two for each of those, why not sell someone who can get you more than all those combined and doesn't fit into your team? Teams sell their best players to raise funds all the time.
I've not seen anything from the setups we've had from Sam so far that makes it look like he's going to try and get the best out of Pierere either. You're probably right about Sam operates his team around their strengths and weaknesses but...
a) that's why he gets rid of players who don't fit into his style and buys ones who does.
b) why on earth are we setting up to defend like mad in every Prem game?
There is nobody available whose going to pay the sums of money we would want for either Diangana or Pereira. The players for the chop will be those on the periphery who have no future here as I outlined.
I’ll pay £50.00 to a charity of your choice if either Diangana or Pereira are sold this month.
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Wouldnt say I was happy mate but thats my view
Fair enough, lots of people were not happy. Personally I was, I still think if he gets who he wants in Jan, we will have a great chance of staying up. (Will get a lot of abuse for saying that, no doubt)
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3 superb posts back to back. I could not agree more.
Totally agree. He knows exactly how things stand and what is needed to fix it.
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Does anyone still think it was a good idea to sack Bilic and to appoint Allardyce?
Sammy Lee does .
I am not having that the players are not good enough, the Man U , Chelsea , Spurs and Man City games show they can .....it’s wether they are utilised and motivated correctly .
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It was me and one or two others that said Bilić should have gone after the draw at home to QPR. Appoint a new manager straightaway in order to give them the summer to prepare for this season. Bilić was sacked too late and that’s entirely the boards fault.
If we were going to appoint Big Sam he really should have been here in late July, early August 2020. He was brave taking the job on when he did, I’ll say that!
Sack Bilic after promotion and 2nd place in a league where we had no divine right to get promoted, lol. Enjoy watching that garbage this afternoon, loads worse than anything served up under Bilic.
Blackpool a league lower than last season's oppo.
Sack Allardyce now.
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But surely you only get rid if you replace him with someone who can do a better job. If we got a manager who played a similar style then I'd say fair enough, you could see the logic...
But we replaced him with a manager who plays PRECISELY the tactics that don't suit this squad. It was never going to work. Even allowing for that, what's Sam doing to lift the squad? Criticising them individually and as a group? Didn't see him cajoling or geeing up the players or anything during the game today - again. They've got a manger trying to get them to play in exactly the wrong way for them, and then chewing them out publicly when they don't perform.
So surely that’s another criticism of Bilic then...he bought players who can only play one way!
We haven’t had a Plan B for a long time.
New manager comes in to change it as the Plan A method obviously wasn’t working.
What BS requires is what pretty much every fan on here has been screaming for. A big strong CF/ST who can hold the ball up, get goals and bring our good attacking midfielders into play, a commanding CB and a CDM.
The poor form of Diangana, who isn’t quite ready, is being complimented by Snodgrass who brings experience, quality, work ethic, grit and skill, in the short term, and to help bring him and others on.
Every position I listed above is what we lacked in the game today.
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There is nobody available whose going to pay the sums of money we would want for either Diangana or Pereira. The players for the chop will be those on the periphery who have no future here as I outlined.
I’ll pay £50.00 to a charity of your choice if either Diangana or Pereira are sold this month.
You said it was "a cheap shot for cheap shot's sake" which I thought was a bit of a harsh comment aimed at me. You seem to think it's completely unfathomable that we'd sell but I just wouldn't be surprised.
It makes logical sense - if we go down, those player's values will drop - why not cash in on players that don't fit your style of play so you can use the money on the rest of the squad?
Someone offers £15m for Pierera, you're telling me that Sam wouldn't be interested if he can use that money on new signings? How much do you think getting rid of the fringe players will bring in in comparison?
We might not like the idea of Sam selling them - but I really wouldn't rule it out.
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Sammy Lee does .
I am not having that the players are not good enough, the Man U , Chelsea , Spurs and Man City games show they can .....it’s wether they are utilised and motivated correctly .
Totally agree. I don't even think that this is the worst squad we've ever had in the Prem - there's just a much bigger gap between promoted teams and the rest of the Prem there was 10-15 years ago. To bridge it you need to spend much bigger money now than previously.
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So surely that’s another criticism of Bilic then...he bought players who can only play one way!
We haven’t had a Plan B for a long time.
New manager comes int to change it as the Plan A method obviously wasn’t working.
What BS requires is what pretty much every fan on here has been screaming for a big strong CF/ST who can hold the ball up, get goals and bring our good attacking midfielders into play, a commanding CB and a CDM.
The poor form of Diangana, who isn’t quite ready, is being complimented by Snodgrass who brings experience, quality, work ethic, grit and skill in the short term and to help bring him and others on.
Every position I listed above is what we lacked in the game today.
But you're setting up to play a new way - that's what we wanted and what the club wanted. You're not going to find many players comfortable in passing it through the middle of the park and also brilliant at handling the long ball game.
I agree about the positions we need - but I think they're best suited to fit into the team and for them to play a nicer brand of football than Sam's. Sticking Periera behind the ball 40 yards from our own goal, and having him sprint to catch up to the big man up top isn't going to get the best out of him.
What we needed was a little sprinkle of Sam's tactics, not drowned in them.
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You said it was "a cheap shot for cheap shot's sake" which I thought was a bit of a harsh comment aimed at me. You seem to think it's completely unfathomable that we'd sell but I just wouldn't be surprised.
It makes logical sense - if we go down, those player's values will drop - why not cash in on players that don't fit your style of play so you can use the money on the rest of the squad?
Someone offers £15m for Pierera, you're telling me that Sam wouldn't be interested if he can use that money on new signings? How much do you think getting rid of the fringe players will bring in in comparison?
We might not like the idea of Sam selling them - but I really wouldn't rule it out.
The cheap shot part of the post was the mention of semi retired 38 year old Kevin Nolan.
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Again, can someone explain this genius manager’s tactics today? Hoof the ball up to Periera? We’ve not scored from open play in the 5 games he’s been in charge of, and frankly, we’ve rarely looked like doing so. Yes, the players have been awful but the setup, organisation and tactics have been appalling and worse than anything under Bilic. I can support Bilic’s sacking but to appoint Allardyce was a disaster.
Some experts on here were saying when he was appointed that Allardyce would improve us - well, he hasn’t.
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Again, can someone explain this genius manager’s tactics today? Hoof the ball up to Periera? We’ve not scored from open play in the 5 games he’s been in charge of, and frankly, we’ve rarely looked like doing so. Yes, the players have been awful but the setup, organisation and tactics have been appalling and worse than anything under Bilic. I can support Bilic’s sacking but to appoint Allardyce was a disaster.
Some experts on here were saying when he was appointed that Allardyce would improve us - well, he hasn’t.
Allardyce has obviously made us worse.
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Again, can someone explain this genius manager’s tactics today? Hoof the ball up to Periera? We’ve not scored from open play in the 5 games he’s been in charge of, and frankly, we’ve rarely looked like doing so. Yes, the players have been awful but the setup, organisation and tactics have been appalling and worse than anything under Bilic. I can support Bilic’s sacking but to appoint Allardyce was a disaster.
Some experts on here were saying when he was appointed that Allardyce would improve us - well, he hasn’t.
He as had 5 games mate. Wait till he as got rid of the rubbish we have now and brought in players who will actually play for their money.
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He as had 5 games mate. Wait till he as got rid of the rubbish we have now and brought in players who will actually play for their money.
With respect a fair few supporters suggested any decent coach would keep this squad in the premier league, if that’s the case why is there a need for replacements?
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Again, can someone explain this genius manager’s tactics today? Hoof the ball up to Periera? We’ve not scored from open play in the 5 games he’s been in charge of, and frankly, we’ve rarely looked like doing so. Yes, the players have been awful but the setup, organisation and tactics have been appalling and worse than anything under Bilic. I can support Bilic’s sacking but to appoint Allardyce was a disaster.
Some experts on here were saying when he was appointed that Allardyce would improve us - well, he hasn’t.
I saw about 60 mins of the match...
I didn’t see hoofball football...I saw a lot of play on the ground personally
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With respect a fair few supporters suggested any decent coach would keep this squad in the premier league, if that’s the case why is there a need for replacements?
A fair few but not a majority....
I think the general consensus is that the players are not good enough for this league
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With respect a fair few supporters suggested any decent coach would keep this squad in the premier league, if that’s the case why is there a need for replacements?
I think most of us who supported this appointment said we have a much better chance under Sam than Slaven rather than guaranteed safety. We sacked Bilic too late for me.
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I saw about 60 mins of the match...
I didn’t see hoofball football...I saw a lot of play on the ground personally
Can I ask did you watch the first 45 minutes, as there were numerous long balls from back to front and very little play through the midfield.
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Can I ask did you watch the first 45 minutes, as there were numerous long balls from back to front and very little play through the midfield.
I did yeah.
I saw long diagonal balls out wide but hardly any of any balls pumped up to the ‘forwards’
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Even if Allardyce brings in several players and we stayed up I don't want to watch Pulis Mk II with an average age of 31. We need a change in the boardroom with fresh ideas rather than reverting to type when the going gets tough. You'd think we'd know better by now but apparently not.
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I saw about 60 mins of the match...
I didn’t see hoofball football...I saw a lot of play on the ground personally
I watched 120 minutes of the match and all I saw was hoofball, even when there was time to take a touch and play a decent pass.
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Even if Allardyce brings in several players and we stayed up I don't want to watch Pulis Mk II with an average age of 31. We need a change in the boardroom with fresh ideas rather than reverting to type when the going gets tough. You'd think we'd know better by now but apparently not.
The only way we are selling the club is if Sam keeps us up if we go down we will be stuck with Lai IMO
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Sack Bilic after promotion and 2nd place in a league where we had no divine right to get promoted, lol. Enjoy watching that garbage this afternoon, loads worse than anything served up under Bilic.
Blackpool a league lower than last season's oppo.
Sack Allardyce now.
That’s right Greggy! Bilić and his backroom staff’s contract and promotion bonus should have been paid up immediately, hands shaken and an amicable parting of company. The only objective the club gave Bilić was promotion. Nothing was ever publicly spoken about what came after that.
Our owner, chairman, CEO and technical director should have appointed Big Sam in the summer if that’s who they wanted to ensure we stay up.
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I watched 120 minutes of the match and all I saw was hoofball, even when there was time to take a touch and play a decent pass.
Must have watched a different game then.
I saw poor football a lot times but nonetheless football.
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I did yeah.
I saw long diagonal balls out wide but hardly any of any balls pumped up to the ‘forwards’
I lost count of the number of times the ball was sent straight out of play.
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With respect a fair few supporters suggested any decent coach would keep this squad in the premier league, if that’s the case why is there a need for replacements?
I don't know mate! Ask the one's who said it. More than half this squad are not now or ever will be premier league players and Bilic brought a fair few. My question to anyone who might have a clue is why are the players so unfit? What was Bilic doing with them in training?
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The only way we are selling the club is if Sam keeps us up if we go down we will be stuck with Lai IMO
You’re absolutely correct in what you’re saying TAF. If we go down it’ll be back to square one with Lai and co. We don’t really stand any chance of moving on ownership-wise with relegation.
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The only way we are selling the club is if Sam keeps us up if we go down we will be stuck with Lai IMO
I haven't got a problem with that, providing we can re-build.
If we win the fire fight, we'll be stuck with SA for some time.
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You’re absolutely correct in what you’re saying TAF. If we go down it’ll be back to square one with Lai and co. We don’t really stand any chance of moving on ownership-wise with relegation.
This is the problem.
Due to the Chinese hating to lose face he won’t sell at the massively reduced value relegation will bring.
We can only hope though
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I don't know mate! Ask the one's who said it. More than half this squad are not now or ever will be premier league players and Bilic brought a fair few. My question to anyone who might have a clue is why are the players so unfit? What was Bilic doing with them in training?
Agreed they are unfit, however I’d argue this group of players are so poor in terms of premier league ability even if they were super fit they would still be relegated.
To be fair to Bilic he built a squad capable of winning promotion, beyond that I blame the club.
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I haven't got a problem with that, providing we can re-build.
If we win the fire fight, we'll be stuck with SA for some time.
Problem Is we rebuilt last season and now here we are
No long term plans just short targets all the time
Go up, try to stay up,go down, try to go straight back up
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I don't know mate! Ask the one's who said it. More than half this squad are not now or ever will be premier league players and Bilic brought a fair few. My question to anyone who might have a clue is why are the players so unfit? What was Bilic doing with them in training?
I’ve raised the same question before albion59. The fitness levels of our players is nowhere near where it should be and hasn’t been for some time.
It’s not been taken seriously enough in training is my guess.
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I don't know mate! Ask the one's who said it. More than half this squad are not now or ever will be premier league players and Bilic brought a fair few. My question to anyone who might have a clue is why are the players so unfit? What was Bilic doing with them in training?
Sam's had more than 3 weeks now, have you seen an improvement? And nobody complained about the fitness of the players against City or Liverpool so what's going on?
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So Bilic built a squad to get promoted from the championship and should be rightly praised for that.
But it’s the clubs fault when Bilic didn’t build a squad for the Prem, instead put his trust in basically the same squad to compete after the disastrous form of the 2nd half of the season in the championship?
Bilic is responsible for both
Club is responsible for the financial side, Bilic the playing side
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I’ve raised the same question before albion59. The fitness levels of our players is nowhere near where it should be and hasn’t been for some time.
It’s not been taken seriously enough in training is my guess.
I know mate professional footballers who ain't fit? Something isn't right. I'd love to still be able to watch them training like we did when SGM was manager!
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Sam's had more than 3 weeks now, have you seen an improvement? And nobody complained about the fitness of the players against City or Liverpool so what's going on?
But we complained about the fitness in nearly all the other games this season.
Like a lower league side we obviously raised our game against the ‘big boys’....
They’ve been unfit all season and pretty much done by the 60th min
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I’ve raised the same question before albion59. The fitness levels of our players is nowhere near where it should be and hasn’t been for some time.
It’s not been taken seriously enough in training is my guess.
They're not unfit, just demoralised, not helped by SA slagging them off in public.
If you play competitive sport at any level, you'll know how important confidence is.
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So Bilic built a squad to get promoted from the championship and should be rightly praised for that.
But it’s the clubs fault when Bilic didn’t build a squad for the Prem, instead put his trust in basically the same squad to compete after the disastrous form of the 2nd half of the season in the championship?
Bilic is responsible for both
Club is responsible for the financial side, Bilic the playing side
As far as I’m aware he didn’t simply put his trust in the same squad and quickly fell out with the club when it was evident he wouldn’t get the funds required.
As I said before £47 million (and I’d question it was as much as that) was never going to be sufficient.
I’m sure I read somewhere our squad cost is ranked 20th, Sheffield United are 19th and spent double.
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Sam's had more than 3 weeks now, have you seen an improvement? And nobody complained about the fitness of the players against City or Liverpool so what's going on?
I don't know whats going on. But if as it as been suggested they won't play for Sam then they should all be dropped and their wages withheld simple really. They don't want to play but still want paying and what about playing for the fans it's their bloody job.
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They're not unfit, just demoralised, not helped by SA slagging them off in public.
If you play competitive sport at any level, you'll know how important confidence is.
Yes I agree
Hanging them out to dry isnt helping
Like when Cloughie did the same at Leeds
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So Bilic built a squad to get promoted from the championship and should be rightly praised for that.
But it’s the clubs fault when Bilic didn’t build a squad for the Prem, instead put his trust in basically the same squad to compete after the disastrous form of the 2nd half of the season in the championship?
Bilic is responsible for both
Club is responsible for the financial side, Bilic the playing side
That's a fair point. Trouble is we know the championship squad wasn't strong enough - our points total wouldn't have got us promotion in recent years at all. Our budget was just too low to make enough signings of the quality we need - it's the trouble when you take loan players on who turn out key. It's almost like you're having to purchase 1.5 teams. Our only big money transfers were Pierera, Diangana and Grant - Grant I'm not convinced by but I'd like to see him play in a team that has more attacking possession. The other two we'd have been mad to pass up on. Nobody thought Diangana's form would fall off so much and he was absolutely vital last season.
We were never going to sell Livermore and Sawyers and bring in 2 midfielders who are Prem quality - we didn't have the cash and selling them would never raise enough funds.
Look at other teams that have got promoted and how much they've spent - we are MILES behind being able to do that. It's hard to sell someone like Townsend and it raise enough to by a Prem quality LB. if it was easy, then Villa and Wolves wouldn't have needed to spend so much.
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This is the problem.
Due to the Chinese hating to lose face he won’t sell at the massively reduced value relegation will bring.
We can only hope though
Sadly Tom we’re not just talking about one Chinese man losing face, it’s a consortium of them. And they’ll want as much of their investment outlay returned as possible.
Extremely frustrating situation mate.
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They're not unfit, just demoralised, not helped by SA slagging them off in public.
If you play competitive sport at any level, you'll know how important confidence is.
We haven’t played with any sort of sustained confidence for over a year now. Not consistently.
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As far as I’m aware he didn’t simply put his trust in the same squad and quickly fell out with the club when it was evident he wouldn’t get the funds required.
As I said before £47 million (and I’d question it was as much as that) was never going to be sufficient.
I’m sure I read somewhere our squad cost is ranked 20th, Sheffield United are 19th and spent double.
Just out of interest, where's the £47m from?
I can only see the following...
Pierera £7.43m (which shouldn't even count as that was in last year's budget)
Grant £14.85m
Diangana £12.15m - guess this one should be more but do you count add ons etc?
£1m Kipre,
£1m Button
So £36.41m. Let's add on £6m for Diangana's add ons. £42m.
As mentioned, we shouldn't include Pierera anyway so that's about £35m?
That really doesn't get you very far in this day and age.
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Just out of interest, where's the £47m from?
I can only see the following...
Pierera £7.43m (which shouldn't even count as that was in last year's budget)
Grant £14.85m
Diangana £12.15m - guess this one should be more but do you count add ons etc?
£1m Kipre,
£1m Button
So £36.41m. Let's add on £6m for Diangana's add ons. £42m.
As mentioned, we shouldn't include Pierera anyway so that's about £35m?
That really doesn't get you very far in this day and age.
The £47 million was mentioned in a previous post which is why I questioned it.
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Just out of interest, where's the £47m from?
I can only see the following...
Pierera £7.43m (which shouldn't even count as that was in last year's budget)
Grant £14.85m
Diangana £12.15m - guess this one should be more but do you count add ons etc?
£1m Kipre,
£1m Button
So £36.41m. Let's add on £6m for Diangana's add ons. £42m.
As mentioned, we shouldn't include Pierera anyway so that's about £35m?
That really doesn't get you very far in this day and age.
Joseph Masi confirmed this in some tweet that was posted on here the other week.
Even if, with your calculations, it was £42m it puts to bed the myth he had no funds
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Got a million for Leko and 6m for Hegazi? 5/6m coming for Nathan Ferguson?
So we are about 22/23m NET into this seasons budget fee-wise.
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Joseph Masi confirmed this in some tweet that was posted on here the other week.
Even if, with your calculations, it was £42m it puts to bed the myth he had no funds
Most people would agree he had funds, they were simply insufficient and he knew that hence why they fell out before the season even started.
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Got a million for Leko and 6m for Hegazi? 5/6m coming for Nathan Ferguson?
So we are about 22/23m NET into this seasons budget fee-wise.
Didn’t Leko go late, Hegazi went after the widow closed and not sure we have had the Ferguson money yet.
But that is what frees up the purse strings a bit for Jan along with Austin’s wages now off the payroll
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Most people would agree he had funds, they were simply insufficient and he knew that hence why they fell out before the season even started.
Insufficient but within our budget.
So you have to be cleverer in the market when that’s the case
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Insufficient but within our budget.
So you have to be cleverer in the market when that’s the case
You would have to be a bloody magician.
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The £47 million was mentioned in a previous post which is why I questioned it.
Add in Krov loan fee
Callum Robinson was undisclosed
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You would have to be a bloody magician.
With £47 million to play with you could be a decent magician.
So you agree Bilic isn’t the magician he’s been made out to be
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Add in Krov loan fee
Callum Robinson was undisclosed
I believe Robinson was pretty much a straight swap with Burke.
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With £47 million to play with you could be a decent magician.
So you agree Bilic isn’t the magician he’s been made out to be
Please show me where I’ve suggested Bilic was a magician.
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Robinson was Burke and about 2.5-3m i believe
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Just out of interest, where's the £47m from?
I can only see the following...
Pierera £7.43m (which shouldn't even count as that was in last year's budget)
Grant £14.85m
Diangana £12.15m - guess this one should be more but do you count add ons etc?
£1m Kipre,
£1m Button
So £36.41m. Let's add on £6m for Diangana's add ons. £42m.
As mentioned, we shouldn't include Pierera anyway so that's about £35m?
That really doesn't get you very far in this day and age.
I’d like to ask though..
What other money did you expect us to spend??
Why don’t you go buy a 1.5 million pound house?
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Just out of interest, where's the £47m from?
I can only see the following...
Pierera £7.43m (which shouldn't even count as that was in last year's budget)
Grant £14.85m
Diangana £12.15m - guess this one should be more but do you count add ons etc?
£1m Kipre,
£1m Button
So £36.41m. Let's add on £6m for Diangana's add ons. £42m.
As mentioned, we shouldn't include Pierera anyway so that's about £35m?
That really doesn't get you very far in this day and age.
It can't be in last years budget unless we spent it last year
If we'd made an allowance for Pierara & not spent it, it would show up as a surplus in last years accounts (due out 30th June this year)
If we spent it this year, it will show up as an expenditure this financial year
Joe Masi said he'd had it confirmed that we had committed to £47 million in transfer fees this financial year.
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Please show me where I’ve suggested Bilic was a magician.
You didn’t
You said you’d have to be a magician to improve the squad with £47m
Thus suggesting Bilic is no magician.
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Five games in and very little change in anything. This is all seeming like Pardew mk2. I felt the players then didnt want to play for Pardew, and I feel this is the same happening with this group.
I think some of them need to be criticized in public they have had a very easy ride for far too long.
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It can't be in last years budget unless we spent it last year
If we'd made an allowance for Pierara & not spent it, it would show up as a surplus in last years accounts (due out 30th June this year)
If we spent it this year, it will show up as an expenditure this financial year
Joe Masi said he'd had it confirmed that we had committed to £47 million in transfer fees this financial year.
Thank you baggiejohn.
Insightful post
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I’d like to ask though..
What other money did you expect us to spend??
Why don’t you go buy a 1.5 million pound house?
If you don’t have 1.5 million you don’t buy a 1.5 million pound house, however since when has buying a property been anything like expenditure in football.
If you’d care to look back through my posts I have never suggested we should put the long term future at risk, in fact I’ve said quite the opposite which is why I oppose good money being spent on players with very little resale value simply to try and survive this season.
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You didn’t
You said you’d have to be a magician to improve the squad with £47m
Thus suggesting Bilic is no magician.
That’s not what I said at all, I made no reference to improve the squad.
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If you don’t have 1.5 million you don’t buy a 1.5 million pound house, however since when has buying a property been anything like expenditure in football.
If you’d care to look back through my posts I have never suggested we should put the long term future at risk, in fact I’ve said quite the opposite which is why I oppose good money being spent on players with very little resale value simply to try and survive this season.
It’s exactly like it..
You can either purchase upfront if you have the money or pay over a number of years...where the difference?
My point being though that if you don’t have the money to buy a 1.5 million pound house, you don’t buy one...you might find a nice 500k house within your budget but it probably lacks what the 1.5 million pound house does.
You don’t we think we should put ourselves at risk financially but you think we didn’t spend enough at £47m and didn’t back Bilic with further funds.
I’m confused
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I read an article on the Athletic in which Allardyce said the first result is huge as the players start believing in the methods & system. I’d have to say on the evidence of things these players most certainly haven’t bought into the system and I’m not sure they ever will.
We all know the deficiencies within the squad but that today was awful, Blackpool played a modern style of football high pressing, good patterns of play etc. and they made us look 15 years out of date. There’s a reason the old school British managers are finding it more difficult to find success / get jobs in football today, in the same article Stephen Warnock told a story of how Allardyce pulled the bus over & got the squad to nip into Tesco’s to buy a load of booze and they had a knees up when they got to the hotel. I just can’t see that resonating with the modern day player and I’m not sure he has it in him to adapt to that.
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It can't be in last years budget unless we spent it last year
If we'd made an allowance for Pierara & not spent it, it would show up as a surplus in last years accounts (due out 30th June this year)
If we spent it this year, it will show up as an expenditure this financial year
Joe Masi said he'd had it confirmed that we had committed to £47 million in transfer fees this financial year.
We were told that the Pierera money was already accounted for and didn't impact this year's budget.
Either way £47m is still not going to get you many Premier League quality players. If we freed that entire budget up, which is mostly the 3 players mentioned, we'd need...
Striker x2 - need replacement for Grant plus realistically we needed another one else we're back to Austin\HRK
DM - we say we need one of those even with the team we have now
AM - replacement for Pierera
Winger - replacement for Diangana
CH x2 - realistically once Hegazi went we needed 2 first choice.
LB - Townsend isn't really good enough.
And there was a case for needing a GK but SJ is like a new signing now so we'll skip that.
So that's 8 players, and we'd still be relying on having Sawyers\Livermore\Phillips\Grosicki playing their parts. And hoping that SJ suddenly improved.
So that's about £5.9m a piece on average. Nowhere near the amount needed to buy the number of players we needed even if we maxed out the loans (and we'd have less in the transfer kitty due to the fees).
The budget was just nowhere near enough.
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Anyone like to say that the money spent on Karlan Grant was good value ?
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It’s exactly like it..
You can either purchase upfront if you have the money or pay over a number of years...where the difference?
My point being though that if you don’t have the money to buy a 1.5 million pound house, you don’t buy one...you might find a nice 500k house within your budget but it probably lacks what the 1.5 million pound house does.
You don’t we think we should put ourselves at risk financially but you think we didn’t spend enough at £47m and didn’t back Bilic with further funds.
I’m confused
When I purchased the majority of my properties I did so using a loan, back then I didn’t have the funds to purchase it out right so I went into debt to do so.
The club have that very same option.
Preseason the club had one of two options as far as I’m concerned, spend big and give the squad a chance of securing a place in the premier league or do as Norwich did last season and spend effectively nothing but in the knowledge that would give it another go the following season.
I could accept either option provided they were honest, what they in fact did was spend nothing like enough to give us a fighting chance only to sack the manager and change track mid season. They will now spend funds firefighting that should be utilised in building a team for the next few years.
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Anyone like to say that the money spent on Karlan Grant was good value ?
I’d suggest only time will tell, however I’m confident the money spent on Zohore and Austin certainly wasn’t good value.
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I’d suggest only time will tell, however I’m confident the money spent on Zohore and Austin certainly wasn’t good value.
Did wonder if Allardyce might have a look at Zohore , then again maybe not.
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When I purchased the majority of my properties I did so using a loan, back then I didn’t have the funds to purchase it out right so I went into debt to do so.
The club have that very same option.
Preseason the club had one of two options as far as I’m concerned, spend big and give the squad a chance of securing a place in the premier league or do as Norwich did last season and spend effectively nothing but in the knowledge that would give it another go the following season.
I could accept either option provided they were honest, what they in fact did was spend nothing like enough to give us a fighting chance only to sack the manager and change track mid season. They will now spend funds firefighting that should be utilised in building a team for the next few years.
The crucial difference being that when you borrow £1m to buy a £1.5m house, the house isn’t likely to halve in value like the club does when it gets relegated, and if you can afford it on day 1 then your income is unlikely to halve in 6 months time like it does with relegation. If the club effectively pre-spends its parachute funding in a failed gamble and goes down with debt which has to be repaid from that parachute funding, then relegation means a firesale just to survive financially, which massively reduces the chance of going back up. That’s why the Championship (and L1) are full of clubs of our size who gambled in the PL and lost, went down with debt and have never recovered.
I don’t want the future of our club risked on a reckless gamble to try to stay in a league which, under its current ownership, we simply can’t afford to be in. Unless things change we will probably be in exactly the same position in 2 years time.
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The crucial difference being that when you borrow £1m to buy a £1.5m house, the house isn’t likely to halve in value like the club does when it gets relegated, and if you can afford it on day 1 then your income is unlikely to halve in 6 months time like it does with relegation. If the club effectively pre-spends its parachute funding in a failed gamble and goes down with debt which has to be repaid from that parachute funding, then relegation means a firesale just to survive financially, which massively reduces the chance of going back up. That’s why the Championship (and L1) are full of clubs of our size who gambled in the PL and lost, went down with debt and have never recovered.
I don’t want the future of our club risked on a reckless gamble to try to stay in a league which, under its current ownership, we simply can’t afford to be in. Unless things change we will probably be in exactly the same position in 2 years time.
I agree 100% as such why have the club offered a half hearted approach but then changed track mid season.
They will now sanction signings to appease Allardyce that are unlikely to be with us in two years time.
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A really poor result today, whatever way you look at it. In terms of morale/mentality a win could have done a lot for the players.
I'm starting to worry we're in another Pardew situation here.
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We were told that the Pierera money was already accounted for and didn't impact this year's budget.
Either way £47m is still not going to get you many Premier League quality players. If we freed that entire budget up, which is mostly the 3 players mentioned, we'd need...
Striker x2 - need replacement for Grant plus realistically we needed another one else we're back to Austin\HRK
DM - we say we need one of those even with the team we have now
AM - replacement for Pierera
Winger - replacement for Diangana
CH x2 - realistically once Hegazi went we needed 2 first choice.
LB - Townsend isn't really good enough.
And there was a case for needing a GK but SJ is like a new signing now so we'll skip that.
So that's 8 players, and we'd still be relying on having Sawyers\Livermore\Phillips\Grosicki playing their parts. And hoping that SJ suddenly improved.
So that's about £5.9m a piece on average. Nowhere near the amount needed to buy the number of players we needed even if we maxed out the loans (and we'd have less in the transfer kitty due to the fees).
The budget was just nowhere near enough.
But it was the budget and probably the upper limit of the budget.
No one can be blamed for that, simple economics.
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When I purchased the majority of my properties I did so using a loan, back then I didn’t have the funds to purchase it out right so I went into debt to do so.
The club have that very same option.
Preseason the club had one of two options as far as I’m concerned, spend big and give the squad a chance of securing a place in the premier league or do as Norwich did last season and spend effectively nothing but in the knowledge that would give it another go the following season.
I could accept either option provided they were honest, what they in fact did was spend nothing like enough to give us a fighting chance only to sack the manager and change track mid season. They will now spend funds firefighting that should be utilised in building a team for the next few years.
So you’re advocating going into debt then to give us a fighting chance? But with no guarantee that the debt will keep us up, and a more than likely chance that you’re income is going to drop considerably the year after. And you’re using that as a stick to beat the club owners with?
Or
We backed Bilic with more funds than we expected to spend this year, again dispelling the myth that the club didn’t back Bilic.
We backed him with what we could really afford.
It was spent poorly let’s face it
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So you’re advocating going into debt then to give us a fighting chance? But with no guarantee that the debt will keep us up, and a more than likely chance that you’re income is going to drop considerably the year after. And you’re using that as a stick to beat the club owned with?
Or
We backed Bilic with more funds than we expected to spend this year, again dispelling the myth that the club didn’t back Bilic.
We backed him with what we could really afford.
It was spent poorly let’s face it
You are clearly misunderstanding what I’m saying.
I have not advocated going into debt, I suggested it was one option open to the club. They chose not to do so and that’s fine by me.
However to suggest the money he was given is sufficient and then to sack him when suprise suprise it wast enough is poor planning, especially when you then employ someone with a completely different philosophy.
I’d suggest some of the money wasn’t that well spent, however if the idea was to spend very little and go again with further improvements next season (similar to Norwich) I could at least believe there is some method to their madness.
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You said it was "a cheap shot for cheap shot's sake" which I thought was a bit of a harsh comment aimed at me. You seem to think it's completely unfathomable that we'd sell but I just wouldn't be surprised.
It makes logical sense - if we go down, those player's values will drop - why not cash in on players that don't fit your style of play so you can use the money on the rest of the squad?
Someone offers £15m for Pierera, you're telling me that Sam wouldn't be interested if he can use that money on new signings? How much do you think getting rid of the fringe players will bring in in comparison?
We might not like the idea of Sam selling them - but I really wouldn't rule it out.
Well it was a cheap shot with your suggestions of selling our best players to be replaced by the likes of Nolan and Snodgrass - you were throwing a cheap shot on the basis of his reputation.
I also have no interest in the players value and nor do the club. The value of a player is a total myth as the selling club will always set their price and it’s up to a buyer to match. With the aside of Evans our previous relegations have no impacted our ability to sell players should our evaluation be met.
If nobody buys them then we have two excellent footballers for the championship who have already demonstrated their capabilities in the division.
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When I purchased the majority of my properties I did so using a loan, back then I didn’t have the funds to purchase it out right so I went into debt to do so.
The club have that very same option.
Preseason the club had one of two options as far as I’m concerned, spend big and give the squad a chance of securing a place in the premier league or do as Norwich did last season and spend effectively nothing but in the knowledge that would give it another go the following season.
I could accept either option provided they were honest, what they in fact did was spend nothing like enough to give us a fighting chance only to sack the manager and change track mid season. They will now spend funds firefighting that should be utilised in building a team for the next few years.
Or they sacked the manager because of his insistence on getting his specific players which then didn’t work?
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Or they sacked the manager because of his insistence on getting his specific players which then didn’t work?
Not a problem if they replace him with someone who isn’t simply a short term fix with no plan for the future.
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I agree 100% as such why have the club offered a half hearted approach but then changed track mid season.
They will now sanction signings to appease Allardyce that are unlikely to be with us in two years time.
But without borrowing significantly - that’s the crucial difference. Being relegated with too much debt is the killer.
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But without borrowing significantly - that’s the crucial difference. Being relegated with too much debt is the killer.
Yes but I believe any funds made available should be spent on players with a long term future and possible increase in resale value.
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I know that this is the Sam Allardyce thread and I'll come onto him in due course, but first let's revisit the appointment of Slaven Bilic. When he was appointed, it was explained that he was undertaking a two year project to rebuild the side, get the average age of the squad down, and get us promoted to the Premier League. It needed to be 2 years because as a club we had limited finances and couldn't afford to just throw money at the plan. I believe Slaven himself was on board with the 2 year project. The side he was building was one built on ball possession and attacking intent, mixed with a good dose of pragmatism. At the end of the first half of the project, we found that, somewhat fortuitously, we had gained promotion. With the benefit of hindsight, I believe that this a bit of a disaster, both for Slaven and for the project. The team was only half built and was ill prepared yet for the jump in standards needed to compete in the Premier League. Most fans realised this and knew it was going to be tough and we would probably go down again. As an owner looking to sell though, Lai would see things somewhat differently. Here was his opportunity, a year earlier than planned. The Premier League riches were suddenly delivered and selling became a whole lot more feasible. The 2 year project was forgotten, not needed any more. This was his outlook. This was as far as his vision extended. When we got off to a less than perfect start, I believe he then panicked as he saw his opportunity slipping away. He began to doubt Slaven Bilic's ability to keep us up. Someone somewhere within the club told him about Sam Allardyce, never been relegated from the top flight, available, and willing to come. What's not to like? It seemed simple enough. However, no-one seemed to point out, or if they did it was ignored, that as a manager he was more or less the exact opposite of Slaven Bilic, defensively minded, and not enamoured with a game plan built on slick passing. His style wouldn't suit this group of players at all. It would be difficult for the players to adapt to such a change quickly, and speed was going to be of the essence if we were to stay up. In addition, the players, for all their limitations, were on the whole happy, they trusted the plan that Slaven had, they liked his way of playing football, the spirit within the squad was reportedly very good. So there was going to be a problem with morale, though presumably it was hoped that a manager as experienced as Sam Allardyce would be able to overcome this hurdle fairly quickly. However, Allardyce saw things a little differently and seemed to feel that a hard man approach was needed, criticising the players publicly almost from the off. He wasn't necessarily a bad manager, but he was entirely the wrong manager for this group of players, and they didn't react too well to his methods. They weren't so happy, didn't like his methods or style of football, nor were they very suited to it. The happy camp became unhappy and what little form there was evaporated.
That for me is where we are at and how we got there. Our situation has been created by the Board, and the plan is the Board's plan, so they have to accept the blame for our current plight. It is a plan built on greed, a lack of patience, and a short term outlook. My worry is that we now bring in a few older players with a different outlook to try against all odds to stay up. When this strategy fails and we go down we will be left with an extremely unbalanced squad, with some being "Allardyce players" and some being "Bilic players", with the resulting problem for whoever the new manager is to be. And until we get a new owner, a new manager, a new outlook, I fear nothing will change for West Bromwich Albion and their loyal fans any time soon.
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Well it was a cheap shot with your suggestions of selling our best players to be replaced by the likes of Nolan and Snodgrass - you were throwing a cheap shot on the basis of his reputation.
I also have no interest in the players value and nor do the club. The value of a player is a total myth as the selling club will always set their price and it’s up to a buyer to match. With the aside of Evans our previous relegations have no impacted our ability to sell players should our evaluation be met.
If nobody buys them then we have two excellent footballers for the championship who have already demonstrated their capabilities in the division.
Of course it wasn't a cheap shot - Sam's been told to sell what he can to raise funds if he wants to bring his own players in. We know the type of players Sam goes for, he's not going to sell a few fringe players and bring in a dazzlingly creative midfielder is he? If he sold Pierera he's not going to spend the money on replacing him with a like for like but better version.
Selling a player like Pierera, who would command a good transfer fee plus, would actually have suitors, and doesn't fit into Sam's style of play - is much easier to do then scratching around selling fringe players for £1m or £2m here or there. To say that this simply won't happen is just wishful thinking.
My fear is that if we give Sam enough free reign this transfer window it could easily happen.
(And player's values go down when teams get relegated. Buying a Premier League player will cost more than buying the equivalent Championship manager. The value of something is decided by what a buyer is willing to pay not by the seller.)
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I know that this is the Sam Allardyce thread and I'll come onto him in due course, but first let's revisit the appointment of Slaven Bilic. When he was appointed, it was explained that he was undertaking a two year project to rebuild the side, get the average age of the squad down, and get us promoted to the Premier League. It needed to be 2 years because as a club we had limited finances and couldn't afford to just throw money at the plan. I believe Slaven himself was on board with the 2 year project. The side he was building was one built on ball possession and attacking intent, mixed with a good dose of pragmatism. At the end of the first half of the project, we found that, somewhat fortuitously, we had gained promotion. With the benefit of hindsight, I believe that this a bit of a disaster, both for Slaven and for the project. The team was only half built and was ill prepared yet for the jump in standards needed to compete in the Premier League. Most fans realised this and knew it was going to be tough and we would probably go down again. As an owner looking to sell though, Lai would see things somewhat differently. Here was his opportunity, a year earlier than planned. The Premier League riches were suddenly delivered and selling became a whole lot more feasible. The 2 year project was forgotten, not needed any more. This was his outlook. This was as far as his vision extended. When we got off to a less than perfect start, I believe he then panicked as he saw his opportunity slipping away. He began to doubt Slaven Bilic's ability to keep us up. Someone somewhere within the club told him about Sam Allardyce, never been relegated from the top flight, available, and willing to come. What's not to like? It seemed simple enough. However, no-one seemed to point out, or if they did it was ignored, that as a manager he was more or less the exact opposite of Slaven Bilic, defensively minded, and not enamoured with a game plan built on slick passing. His style wouldn't suit this group of players at all. It would be difficult for the players to adapt to such a change quickly, and speed was going to be of the essence if we were to stay up. In addition, the players, for all their limitations, were on the whole happy, they trusted the plan that Slaven had, they liked his way of playing football, the spirit within the squad was reportedly very good. So there was going to be a problem with morale, though presumably it was hoped that a manager as experienced as Sam Allardyce would be able to overcome this hurdle fairly quickly. However, Allardyce saw things a little differently and seemed to feel that a hard man approach was needed, criticising the players publicly almost from the off. He wasn't necessarily a bad manager, but he was entirely the wrong manager for this group of players, and they didn't react too well to his methods. They weren't so happy, didn't like his methods or style of football, nor were they very suited to it. The happy camp became unhappy and what little form there was evaporated.
That for me is where we are at and how we got there. Our situation has been created by the Board, and the plan is the Board's plan, so they have to accept the blame for our current plight. It is a plan built on greed, a lack of patience, and a short term outlook. My worry is that we now bring in a few older players with a different outlook to try against all odds to stay up. When this strategy fails and we go down we will be left with an extremely unbalanced squad, with some being "Allardyce players" and some being "Bilic players", with the resulting problem for whoever the new manager is to be. And until we get a new owner, a new manager, a new outlook, I fear nothing will change for West Bromwich Albion and their loyal fans any time soon.
That's a brilliant post and sums up the current circumstances - and future worries - for me. Bravo.
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So, my early thoughts as we approach a month of Big Sam in charge. I’m not blindly loyal to either camp and will assess the situation on its merits.
It already feels like we’re a bit of a crossroads in his tenure with us and the next 20 days will be pivotal as to whether we survive.
My hope from his appointment was that we would immediately see some signs of improvement from a defensive point of view. I also expected we might be more structured. This team are not capable of out-footballing teams so it would require hard work and organisation.
What we have seen is the opposite in that our defence appears even leakier, our midfield remains wide open and we remain easy to play against. Aside from the game against Liverpool we have been resoundingly beaten in our matches.
Rome was not built in a day and for all intents and purposes, time on the training pitch has been limited. That being said, I would have expected to have seen more so far. I have anticipated losses throughout his fixtures with us but I expected we would have put up more of a showing.
The next 20 days defines what happens with our future and whether he can change the mindset and culture within the club. Some of these players are clearly not good enough for this division and reinforcements are required. The task follows similar jobs at Sunderland and Palace but the extent of the work required here is significantly greater.
If we don’t get the players he wants then I think his departure in March and April is most likely, prior to our inevitable relegation to preserve his reputation.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and I will afford him the opportunity to make improvements to the side which will hopefully produce better results and performances on the field. He deserves an opportunity as much as any other head coach but it is pretty clear we need to start seeing some improvement otherwise this experiment will be marked as a failure.
Time will tell.
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Yeah, that seems about right to be fair.
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Yeah, that seems about right to be fair.
We’ve finally found something we agree on then.. :-*
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That's a brilliant post and sums up the current circumstances - and future worries - for me. Bravo.
Thanks. "Brilliant" is probably overstating it but I appreciate the sentiment nonetheless. Think my head needed to get it off my chest !!
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So, my early thoughts as we approach a month of Big Sam in charge. I’m not blindly loyal to either camp and will assess the situation on its merits.
It already feels like we’re a bit of a crossroads in his tenure with us and the next 20 days will be pivotal as to whether we survive.
My hope from his appointment was that we would immediately see some signs of improvement from a defensive point of view. I also expected we might be more structured. This team are not capable of out-footballing teams so it would require hard work and organisation.
What we have seen is the opposite in that our defence appears even leakier, our midfield remains wide open and we remain easy to play against. Aside from the game against Liverpool we have been resoundingly beaten in our matches.
Rome was not built in a day and for all intents and purposes, time on the training pitch has been limited. That being said, I would have expected to have seen more so far. I have anticipated losses throughout his fixtures with us but I expected we would have put up more of a showing.
The next 20 days defines what happens with our future and whether he can change the mindset and culture within the club. Some of these players are clearly not good enough for this division and reinforcements are required. The task follows similar jobs at Sunderland and Palace but the extent of the work required here is significantly greater.
If we don’t get the players he wants then I think his departure in March and April is most likely, prior to our inevitable relegation to preserve his reputation.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and I will afford him the opportunity to make improvements to the side which will hopefully produce better results and performances on the field. He deserves an opportunity as much as any other head coach but it is pretty clear we need to start seeing some improvement otherwise this experiment will be marked as a failure.
Time will tell.
Good post. That’s pretty much where I am. It does seem a long time ago that playing half decent and blaming VAR for our defeats was where we were at, such is our decline. As you say we need to come out of January with a better side, a set formation, better organisation and some more points, otherwise we are toast and so is he.
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A very level-headed post Liam and sums up where I'm at with it all.
I certainly didn't expect us to ship so many goals but we have to see where we're at once the window closes. We'd have played a few more games by then. I think the main thing is keeping us in touch as we currently are, 6 points being ok. But 9 points or more and the job is getting much harder.
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I fear Big Sam could be our Alan Pardew for this season.
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I fear Big Sam could be our Alan Pardew for this season.
Maybe, time will tell, At least Sam knows what needs to be done to keep us up. Pardew had no clue at all.
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Maybe, time will tell, At least Sam knows what needs to be done to keep us up. Pardew had no clue at all.
I think both were probably equally deluded and egotistical.
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Maybe, time will tell, At least Sam knows what needs to be done to keep us up. Pardew had no clue at all.
No signs of that so far.
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Great post Liam.
The worry is people are already saying they are looking forward to starting afresh in the summer and clearing out the squad, reconnecting with the fans, etc the problem is we did that 2 seasons ago, started again and have panicked and will be back there again most likely.
Of course we have a lot of players out of contacts but three summers ago we got rid of a lot of the big earners, we also brought in players who could get better - Johnstone, Townsend, Edwards namely. We appointed a club legend who had a lot of credits to his name for at least making us go down with some fight, somebody who knew the club, one of us, etc, etc and by early March at 4th in the league, he was sacked.
Two summers ago, we got rid of some more and started to bring in players who could potentially get better again - Furlong, Ajayi, O'Shea, Pereira, Diangana, Krovinovic, fans wanted to feel connected again, we appointed a charismatic decent manager in Bilic, was told the aim was to be up in two years, we did it in one, three months later he is sacked.
This isnt about Moore or Bilic as such, but at some point as fans we probably have to accept that for the greater good in the long run, we are going to have setbacks, obviously we dont choose whether a manager gets sacked or not, but we keep saying a clearout, fresh start, connection to the club, then when we do it, when we have a bad spell, people want change, sometimes you have to stick with people when things go rubbish.
Under Mowbray we failed in the playoffs, got promoted, then got relegated yet those three seasons along with Ashworth laid the foundations for the club to become a premier league club for 8 years after, of course others came in like new managers, players but the core of those players - Morrison, Brunt, Olsson, Mulumbu formed something for us to build off, at some point we need to give a manager a chance to do that.
I dont think that manager will be Big Sam as his and the boards aim is to still be in premier league at the end of the season, he will do whatever he has too to achieve that which will be looking short term, but i think as fans and as a club, even when do eventually get sold, unless its to some billionaire, our new owners will likely be more JP / Lai than an Ambramovic, so when that happens we have to accept that this new path we want, will have setbacks and we cant keep make drastic sackings else nothing will change.
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I fear Big Sam could be our Alan Pardew for this season.
I was thinking more Ron Saunders.
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I fear Big Sam could be our Alan Pardew for this season.
Think the difference at the moment is that Pardew had a squad of players that he should have got results with.
Big Sam has the complete opposite
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I was thinking more Ron Saunders.
Exactly this Smethwickw. It seems to me that there is actually for the first time in many years a medium to long term plan. This is to destroy the club from the already damaged core, by breaking the trust of the dressing room, placing the blame entirely on players who var permitting might have been considered to have made a reasonable start in the premier league under the previous manager, causing discontent among the players and destroying any team ethic, then eventually selling off some of the younger more talented players probably to a rival or near neighbour. Setting up a degeneration within all aspects of our club that if it does not finish us completely, will take decades to halt and reverse.
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So, my early thoughts as we approach a month of Big Sam in charge. I’m not blindly loyal to either camp and will assess the situation on its merits.
It already feels like we’re a bit of a crossroads in his tenure with us and the next 20 days will be pivotal as to whether we survive.
My hope from his appointment was that we would immediately see some signs of improvement from a defensive point of view. I also expected we might be more structured. This team are not capable of out-footballing teams so it would require hard work and organisation.
What we have seen is the opposite in that our defence appears even leakier, our midfield remains wide open and we remain easy to play against. Aside from the game against Liverpool we have been resoundingly beaten in our matches.
Rome was not built in a day and for all intents and purposes, time on the training pitch has been limited. That being said, I would have expected to have seen more so far. I have anticipated losses throughout his fixtures with us but I expected we would have put up more of a showing.
The next 20 days defines what happens with our future and whether he can change the mindset and culture within the club. Some of these players are clearly not good enough for this division and reinforcements are required. The task follows similar jobs at Sunderland and Palace but the extent of the work required here is significantly greater.
If we don’t get the players he wants then I think his departure in March and April is most likely, prior to our inevitable relegation to preserve his reputation.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and I will afford him the opportunity to make improvements to the side which will hopefully produce better results and performances on the field. He deserves an opportunity as much as any other head coach but it is pretty clear we need to start seeing some improvement otherwise this experiment will be marked as a failure.
Time will tell.
I'll also add my name to the list of people who agree with the above, its a fair assessment of where i think things are too.
I also think Albion79's follow up is fair though and that we do as a fan base need to be patient, but that isn't patients for the sake of it. We need to fine someone worth persevering with and I dont think Bilic was the one.
Above all though, we need the senior club figures to plan for the future though and I dont think Ken/Dowling are the right pair.
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Above all though, we need the senior club figures to plan for the future though and I dont think Ken/Dowling are the right pair.
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Ken is only thinking as far as the sale! Strategy will only ever be short term whilst Lai is owner. SA is the embodiment of that.
Dowling has a lot to do to convince me he should be part of the long term but that is only in comparison to Ashworth. I don't think he has done a terrible job in comparison to some of the other jokers we have had in that role but Zohore is a real black mark.
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Great post Liam.
The worry is people are already saying they are looking forward to starting afresh in the summer and clearing out the squad, reconnecting with the fans, etc the problem is we did that 2 seasons ago, started again and have panicked and will be back there again most likely.
Of course we have a lot of players out of contacts but three summers ago we got rid of a lot of the big earners, we also brought in players who could get better - Johnstone, Townsend, Edwards namely. We appointed a club legend who had a lot of credits to his name for at least making us go down with some fight, somebody who knew the club, one of us, etc, etc and by early March at 4th in the league, he was sacked.
Two summers ago, we got rid of some more and started to bring in players who could potentially get better again - Furlong, Ajayi, O'Shea, Pereira, Diangana, Krovinovic, fans wanted to feel connected again, we appointed a charismatic decent manager in Bilic, was told the aim was to be up in two years, we did it in one, three months later he is sacked.
This isnt about Moore or Bilic as such, but at some point as fans we probably have to accept that for the greater good in the long run, we are going to have setbacks, obviously we dont choose whether a manager gets sacked or not, but we keep saying a clearout, fresh start, connection to the club, then when we do it, when we have a bad spell, people want change, sometimes you have to stick with people when things go rubbish.
Under Mowbray we failed in the playoffs, got promoted, then got relegated yet those three seasons along with Ashworth laid the foundations for the club to become a premier league club for 8 years after, of course others came in like new managers, players but the core of those players - Morrison, Brunt, Olsson, Mulumbu formed something for us to build off, at some point we need to give a manager a chance to do that.
I dont think that manager will be Big Sam as his and the boards aim is to still be in premier league at the end of the season, he will do whatever he has too to achieve that which will be looking short term, but i think as fans and as a club, even when do eventually get sold, unless its to some billionaire, our new owners will likely be more JP / Lai than an Ambramovic, so when that happens we have to accept that this new path we want, will have setbacks and we cant keep make drastic sackings else nothing will change.
Agree with most of this. I was thinking this weekend that we really do epitomise what's wrong with modern day football. Short-term, reactionary, impatient and lacking a coherent long term plan. The managerial appointments and signings bear that out. Like 79 says we decide to have a clean sweep and Dowling said over and over we need young, hungry players and to bring the age of the squad down drastically. We appoint Bilic to appeal to "the Albion way" and we get promoted (albeit with a big stumble at the end). We then sack Bilic bring in a "fire-fighter" to keep us up and try and sign a bunch of "experienced" (basically older) players on short-term deals to help us survive.
It's really easy to harp on about Ashworth and the "golden era" of modern day West Brom. I think Ashworth was great but the Hodgson appointment was a drop in your lap perfect storm in terms of timing. The main reason I appreciated Ashworth (other than recruitment) was he did seem to have a plan and a longer term strategy. We appointed Mowbray and Di Matteo who were actually employed by other teams as they were quite good at the time...
Since Roy we have gone for people out of work or have chopped and changed on style and philosophy. If we wanted to try and keep the Bilic way why not look at someone like Steve Cooper the Swansea manager?
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I think under Ashworth he said that he had a list of managerial targets (suitable to the style we play and achievable) at any one time for when we sacked or a manager left. Likewise with keeping the scouting department under the club's control. The plan being we didn't need to start all over again each time there was a new manager appointed. Makes sense.
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I think under Ashworth he said that he had a list of managerial targets (suitable to the style we play and achievable) at any one time for when we sacked or a manager left. Likewise with keeping the scouting department under the club's control. The plan being we didn't need to start all over again each time there was a new manager appointed. Makes sense.
It was a long term plan many of us were happy to get behind and I remember feeling quite smug at being the "model club" that other teams without massive financial backing could follow. Then England called!! We could have coped losing Ashworth with Roy to steady the ship OR lost Roy and had Ashworth there to continue with his vision. We lost both and the culmination was seeing Pullis arrive as by that time JP's only vision was to full his pockets full of gold which relied on survival at all cost. We are in effect back in the exact position again with SA.
We will never get a Sugar Daddy, no Saudi Prince is going to wander down West Brom high street but we do need owners who can put in place that longer term vision. Unless we get lucky, as we did with the DA/RH combination, we can only hope to be the best of the YOYO clubs. Keeping the nucleus of the squad together even on relegation whilst selling our best players at top value and reinvesting to stay above the Championship pack.
I know some see this as unambitious......but the alternative is to bring in a firefighter every few years and I'm not sure who would be next????
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I think under Ashworth he said that he had a list of managerial targets (suitable to the style we play and achievable) at any one time for when we sacked or a manager left. Likewise with keeping the scouting department under the club's control. The plan being we didn't need to start all over again each time there was a new manager appointed. Makes sense.
The more I read about the part Ashworth played at the club, the more I realise what a massive loss it was when he left.
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The more I read about the part Ashworth played at the club, the more I realise what a massive loss it was when he left.
Absolutely, his team managed to squeeze by the mighty Newport County in the cup last night.
It's a myth that Dan Ashworth was responsible for successful player recruitment.
It was his development of the academy that was Dan's legacy.
He was recruited by England, to develop & progress the network of younger players, based on his success with our academy.
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Absolutely, his team managed to squeeze by the mighty Newport County in the cup last night.
It's a myth that Dan Ashworth was responsible for successful player recruitment.
It was his development of the academy that was Dan's legacy.
He was recruited by England, to develop & progress the network of younger players, based on his success with our academy.
It does seem Dan (along with Peace) had a vision re recruitment (Moneyball - to recruit undervalued players to 'flip' or who could improve and keeping away from expensive forwards whose bang for buck is low). He also established a team or scouts which found the Mulumbus , Odemwingies et al. Pulis disbanded this team of scouts.
It's funny how good leaders or those with vision aren't appreciated until they're gone , especially when you have Williams, Hammond, Ken (who is he anyway?) and Dowling replace them!
Sam does have good connections (we know he has good relationships with agents!) and this may hopefully find us one or two players we wouldn't have had if we'd relied on Dowling and his seemingly small notebook.
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This isnt about Moore or Bilic as such, but at some point as fans we probably have to accept that for the greater good in the long run, we are going to have setbacks, obviously we dont choose whether a manager gets sacked or not, but we keep saying a clearout, fresh start, connection to the club, then when we do it, when we have a bad spell, people want change, sometimes you have to stick with people when things go rubbish.
Under Mowbray we failed in the playoffs, got promoted, then got relegated yet those three seasons along with Ashworth laid the foundations for the club to become a premier league club for 8 years after, of course others came in like new managers, players but the core of those players - Morrison, Brunt, Olsson, Mulumbu formed something for us to build off, at some point we need to give a manager a chance to do that.
I dont think that manager will be Big Sam as his and the boards aim is to still be in premier league at the end of the season, he will do whatever he has too to achieve that which will be looking short term, but i think as fans and as a club, even when do eventually get sold, unless its to some billionaire, our new owners will likely be more JP / Lai than an Ambramovic, so when that happens we have to accept that this new path we want, will have setbacks and we cant keep make drastic sackings else nothing will change.
Totally agreed.
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There’s no point in us sacking managers every 2 years because they can’t keep us in the Premier League (with limited backing) after being promoted. Far better to have the DoF structure whereby ideally the coach stays, but if he doesn’t then he gets seamlessly replaced and we continue along the same path.
The biggest risk to us is not getting relegated from the Premier League, its throwing the baby out with the bath water as a result of being relegated and then having to massively rebuild in order to go back up. It takes time for a new coach and a new squad to gel.
Build a continuity structure, a decent scouting network and fully develop the Academy. Always look to buy hungry young players with big resale potential and accept that we may well have to sell 2 or 3 players bought at low fees/academy players for big fees in order to buy the 5 or 6 extra players which can provide the depth of experience to help us stay in the Premier League. If we get it slightly wrong then the worst outcome should be a yo-yo club, which is by no means the worst outcome.
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There’s no point in us sacking managers every 2 years because they can’t keep us in the Premier League (with limited backing) after being promoted. Far better to have the DoF structure whereby ideally the coach stays, but if he doesn’t then he gets seamlessly replaced and we continue along the same path.
The biggest risk to us is not getting relegated from the Premier League, its throwing the baby out with the bath water as a result of being relegated and then having to massively rebuild in order to go back up. It takes time for a new coach and a new squad to gel.
Build a continuity structure, a decent scouting network and fully develop the Academy. Always look to buy hungry young players with big resale potential and accept that we may well have to sell 2 or 3 players bought at low fees/academy players for big fees in order to buy the 5 or 6 extra players which can provide the depth of experience to help us stay in the Premier League. If we get it slightly wrong then the worst outcome should be a yo-yo club, which is by no means the worst outcome.
It is what I said before... It isn't the shelf stacker who needs to be replaced, but his manager aka Dowling.
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11 days in and we have signed just Snodgrass, who will improve the team BTW.
The most important acquisition is someone new to play alongside Gallagher.
It's the time and space afforded to opposition runners that's the problem. Yes the individuals in defence could be better, but in truth they have zero protection.
Mulumbu and Yacob have not been replaced. It cost us relegation from the Premier last time when alternating between Barry, Morrison, Brunt, Krychiowiak, Livermore, neither was good or quick enough.
The longer we go on with Sawyers and Livermore then the closer Allardyce is inching to the exit door.
Got no chance of keeping a clean sheet or even winning 1 football match.
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It is what I said before... It isn't the shelf stacker who needs to be replaced, but his manager aka Dowling.
Supposing the board sacked Dowling, who would you trust from the owner & his representatives to find a replacement?
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Absolutely, his team managed to squeeze by the mighty Newport County in the cup last night.
It's a myth that Dan Ashworth was responsible for successful player recruitment.
It was his development of the academy that was Dan's legacy.
He was recruited by England, to develop & progress the network of younger players, based on his success with our academy.
I’d disagree that you can write off his contribution to player recruitment that easily. He may not have been the head scout or anything like that, but his role was to co-ordinate both the scouting and transfer strategy.
He had 3 main themes that were evident in his time here. Number 1 was the free transfer - we picked up loads of these in his time and he had continued that at Brighton. Some were rehabilitation players (Jerome Thomas, Giles Barnes, Keith Andrews) while others were smart and opportunistic (Claudio Yacob, Gareth Macauley, Stephen Reid, Zoltan Gera and Billy Jones being good examples). Number 2 was the smart scouting, low cost buys like Chris Brunt, James Morrison, Shane Long, Peter Odemwingie and Paul Scharner. Finally came the “ones for the future†- something else he has done at Brighton. Mulumbu, Dorrans, Dawson all paid off handsomely, while others like Scott Allan and Marcus Haber didn’t.
Good running of a club doesn’t meant you have to get all of this right all of the time, but you need to have a clear strategy that is getting results more often than not.
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I know that this is the Sam Allardyce thread and I'll come onto him in due course, but first let's revisit the appointment of Slaven Bilic. When he was appointed, it was explained that he was undertaking a two year project to rebuild the side, get the average age of the squad down, and get us promoted to the Premier League. It needed to be 2 years because as a club we had limited finances and couldn't afford to just throw money at the plan. I believe Slaven himself was on board with the 2 year project. The side he was building was one built on ball possession and attacking intent, mixed with a good dose of pragmatism. At the end of the first half of the project, we found that, somewhat fortuitously, we had gained promotion. With the benefit of hindsight, I believe that this a bit of a disaster, both for Slaven and for the project. The team was only half built and was ill prepared yet for the jump in standards needed to compete in the Premier League. Most fans realised this and knew it was going to be tough and we would probably go down again. As an owner looking to sell though, Lai would see things somewhat differently. Here was his opportunity, a year earlier than planned. The Premier League riches were suddenly delivered and selling became a whole lot more feasible. The 2 year project was forgotten, not needed any more. This was his outlook. This was as far as his vision extended. When we got off to a less than perfect start, I believe he then panicked as he saw his opportunity slipping away. He began to doubt Slaven Bilic's ability to keep us up. Someone somewhere within the club told him about Sam Allardyce, never been relegated from the top flight, available, and willing to come. What's not to like? It seemed simple enough. However, no-one seemed to point out, or if they did it was ignored, that as a manager he was more or less the exact opposite of Slaven Bilic, defensively minded, and not enamoured with a game plan built on slick passing. His style wouldn't suit this group of players at all. It would be difficult for the players to adapt to such a change quickly, and speed was going to be of the essence if we were to stay up. In addition, the players, for all their limitations, were on the whole happy, they trusted the plan that Slaven had, they liked his way of playing football, the spirit within the squad was reportedly very good. So there was going to be a problem with morale, though presumably it was hoped that a manager as experienced as Sam Allardyce would be able to overcome this hurdle fairly quickly. However, Allardyce saw things a little differently and seemed to feel that a hard man approach was needed, criticising the players publicly almost from the off. He wasn't necessarily a bad manager, but he was entirely the wrong manager for this group of players, and they didn't react too well to his methods. They weren't so happy, didn't like his methods or style of football, nor were they very suited to it. The happy camp became unhappy and what little form there was evaporated.
That for me is where we are at and how we got there. Our situation has been created by the Board, and the plan is the Board's plan, so they have to accept the blame for our current plight. It is a plan built on greed, a lack of patience, and a short term outlook. My worry is that we now bring in a few older players with a different outlook to try against all odds to stay up. When this strategy fails and we go down we will be left with an extremely unbalanced squad, with some being "Allardyce players" and some being "Bilic players", with the resulting problem for whoever the new manager is to be. And until we get a new owner, a new manager, a new outlook, I fear nothing will change for West Bromwich Albion and their loyal fans any time soon.
This is an excellent post, if a little lacking in formatting! ;D
Unless Allardyce can get players more suited to his preferred style of play LFY, he needs to be more adaptable in his approach to suit the players we do have. However, he hasn't shown the slightest sign of doing this so far.
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I’d disagree that you can write off his contribution to player recruitment that easily. He may not have been the head scout or anything like that, but his role was to co-ordinate both the scouting and transfer strategy.
He had 3 main themes that were evident in his time here. Number 1 was the free transfer - we picked up loads of these in his time and he had continued that at Brighton. Some were rehabilitation players (Jerome Thomas, Giles Barnes, Keith Andrews) while others were smart and opportunistic (Claudio Yacob, Gareth Macauley, Stephen Reid, Zoltan Gera and Billy Jones being good examples). Number 2 was the smart scouting, low cost buys like Chris Brunt, James Morrison, Shane Long, Peter Odemwingie and Paul Scharner. Finally came the “ones for the future†- something else he has done at Brighton. Mulumbu, Dorrans, Dawson all paid off handsomely, while others like Scott Allan and Marcus Haber didn’t.
Good running of a club doesn’t meant you have to get all of this right all of the time, but you need to have a clear strategy that is getting results more often than not.
Perhaps, I should have phrased it better.
Richard Garlick didn't work as a sporting director, but I'm not sure Hammond or Dowling have had worse transfer records overall than Dan Ashworth.
As you said all have had failures as well as successes.
As was said previously, Dan Ashworth's vision was encouraged by Peace, I'm not sure there is a vision at the moment, except to stay in the EPL.
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This is an excellent post, if a little lacking in formatting! ;D
Unless Allardyce can get players more suited to his preferred style of play LFY, he needs to be more adaptable in his approach to suit the players we do have. However, he hasn't shown the slightest sign of doing this so far.
Can’t remember who, but I saw an account I follow on Twitter (one of these analytics accounts I think) make a strong case that for all of his faults, Allardyce is actually one of the most adaptable of the “usual suspects†(Eg Pulis, Hodgson). He will usually shape a team based on what he has to work with and does not come in with a pre conceived set up, often being happy to build around one individual (maybe Pereira in our case).
I think the issue with Allardyce so far is that he has completely failed to sure up the defence and if anything, had just made it even worse. Possibly something to do with him trying to get the ball forward quickly without the attackers to make it stick, therefore inviting more pressure on a poor defence.
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Perhaps, I should have phrased it better.
Richard Garlick didn't work as a sporting director, but I'm not sure Hammond or Dowling have had worse transfer records overall than Dan Ashworth.
As you said all have had failures as well as successes.
As was said previously, Dan Ashworth's vision was encouraged by Peace, I'm not sure there is a vision at the moment, except to stay in the EPL.
We will have to agree to disagree on Ashwoth’s record compared to Dowling and Hammond, however I agree about the lack of long term thinking now.
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Allardyce is the entirely logical end point of the galloping short termism that has infected club in the 8 years since Ashworth left.
The Ashworth years are now seen as a golden age and when compared to what has followed they were. I have often pondered the cause and effect of Ashworth's departure. In essence Ashworth got out before the Peace descended into the pit of his own hubris and greed. Whether Ashworth's reputation would have survived the constant pressure for short term fixes to preserve Premier League status at all costs is debatable.
The disappointing thing about the Bilic appointment and the way it panned out was that one point it looked like we had put something in place that wasn't just a short term fix. We were starting to look beyond tomorrows result. It is this that is the most singularly distressing aspect of the Allardyce appointment it is so predictably business as usual.
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Can’t remember who, but I saw an account I follow on Twitter (one of these analytics accounts I think) make a strong case that for all of his faults, Allardyce is actually one of the most adaptable of the “usual suspects†(Eg Pulis, Hodgson). He will usually shape a team based on what he has to work with and does not come in with a pre conceived set up, often being happy to build around one individual (maybe Pereira in our case).
I think the issue with Allardyce so far is that he has completely failed to sure up the defence and if anything, had just made it even worse. Possibly something to do with him trying to get the ball forward quickly without the attackers to make it stick, therefore inviting more pressure on a poor defence.
ive been watching the Undr The Cosh podcasts, yesterday I listened to David Dunn who played under Allardyce..
Even he said its a myth that Allardyce is a long ball specialist, infact he actively encouraged his players to play football. He has flair players in his team, and always has, and incorprates them and wants them to go out and do their thing whilst the players around them put their foot in etc.
He is very much a pragmatic manager
Problem is we have lots of so called 'flair' players and no one who will really put their foot in and win the ball back and organise. And thats the issue with Bilic's signings......what did Mowbray call it 'soft feet'??
we have an unbalanced side, completely unbalanced and that lies with Bilic and his recruitment alongside Dowling.
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Allardyce is the entirely logical end point of the galloping short termism that has infected club in the 8 years since Ashworth left.
The Ashworth years are now seen as a golden age and when compared to what has followed they were. I have often pondered the cause and effect of Ashworth's departure. In essence Ashworth got out before the Peace descended into the pit of his own hubris and greed. Whether Ashworth's reputation would have survived the constant pressure for short term fixes to preserve Premier League status at all costs is debatable.
The disappointing thing about the Bilic appointment and the way it panned out was that one point it looked like we had put something in place that wasn't just a short term fix. We were starting to look beyond tomorrows result. It is this that is the most singularly distressing aspect of the Allardyce appointment it is so predictably business as usual.
Summs up my feelings exactly. I understand the logic for bringing in Allardyce, but well run clubs don't need fire fighters.
One thing I will say is that I feel Peace's short term thinking came about as a result of losing Ashworth. Before Ashworth, Peace and Jenkins were scrambling around to try to make the club stick. They understood that the club needed to come into the modern age with a director of football (something Thompson before them had been pilloried for), however didn't know how to hire a good one. They quickly sacked off the first who's name escapes me (Hunt?) and were lucky to come across Ashworth.
Ashworth was brought in by Aidy Boothroyd and inherited the academy after Boothroyd set it up and then left. Ashworth earned rave reviews due to his attention to detail there (I was told by parents of academy kids that they picked albion due to the fact that at the end of their group trials, Ashworth who only had a passing brief would speak to everyone and know them all individually by name).
He got a promotion and the rest is history. After he left, Peace (and to a degree Ashworth) hired Garlick as their successor which showed Peace's failure to recruit or talent spot (and maybe also Ashworth's tendency for nepotism). Garlick is undisputedly a brilliant administrator, as proved by his eventual head hunting by the premier league, but he had none of the required skills. From that point, Peace made poor decision after poor decision, with McDonough, Irvine, Mel, Pulis and Hammond following. By the end, he knew he wanted to sell, knew he didn't have the ability to head hunt a good director of football to replace Ashworth despite there being good options around and so made a decision to protect his huge profit - hire a fire fighter and allow him to tear apart all of our structures for short term survival.
Had Ashworth been here, i'd imagine we would have had enough continuity to allow Peace to not have to make the knee jerk decisions.
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ive been watching the Undr The Cosh podcasts, yesterday I listened to David Dunn who played under Allardyce..
Even he said its a myth that Allardyce is a long ball specialist, infact he actively encouraged his players to play football. He has flair players in his team, and always has, and incorprates them and wants them to go out and do their thing whilst the players around them put their foot in etc.
He is very much a pragmatic manager
Problem is we have lots of so called 'flair' players and no one who will really put their foot in and win the ball back and organise. And thats the issue with Bilic's signings......what did Mowbray call it 'soft feet'??
we have an unbalanced side, completely unbalanced and that lies with Bilic and his recruitment alongside Dowling.
You make a great point and the pragmatic remark was used by the analytics bloke in his own write up.
I did however say in the summer that our team was starting to resemble a Mowbray side with lots of technical players and no enforcer types coming in. I feel vindicated about that now.
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Allardyce is the entirely logical end point of the galloping short termism that has infected club in the 8 years since Ashworth left.
The Ashworth years are now seen as a golden age and when compared to what has followed they were. I have often pondered the cause and effect of Ashworth's departure. In essence Ashworth got out before the Peace descended into the pit of his own hubris and greed. Whether Ashworth's reputation would have survived the constant pressure for short term fixes to preserve Premier League status at all costs is debatable.
The disappointing thing about the Bilic appointment and the way it panned out was that one point it looked like we had put something in place that wasn't just a short term fix. We were starting to look beyond tomorrows result. It is this that is the most singularly distressing aspect of the Allardyce appointment it is so predictably business as usual.
Love it when I learn a new word
Every days a schoolday ;D
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ive been watching the Undr The Cosh podcasts, yesterday I listened to David Dunn who played under Allardyce..
Even he said its a myth that Allardyce is a long ball specialist, infact he actively encouraged his players to play football. He has flair players in his team, and always has, and incorprates them and wants them to go out and do their thing whilst the players around them put their foot in etc.
He is very much a pragmatic manager
Problem is we have lots of so called 'flair' players and no one who will really put their foot in and win the ball back and organise. And thats the issue with Bilic's signings......what did Mowbray call it 'soft feet'??
we have an unbalanced side, completely unbalanced and that lies with Bilic and his recruitment alongside Dowling.
Allardyce is closer if not the same as Roy as opposed to being like Pulis.
He asks that the team do the basics, don't lose possession in your own half, always pass forward (Sawyers OG vs Leeds going against both of these).
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He's nothing like Roy. Look how deep we've been sitting - we're getting 25-30% possession in games - that's Pulis level (if anything, worse).
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Allardyce is closer if not the same as Roy as opposed to being like Pulis.
He asks that the team do the basics, don't lose possession in your own half, always pass forward (Sawyers OG vs Leeds going against both of these).
Exactly...
I wonder if people would have scowled so much had Hodgson been the one to replace Bilic?
People have added the Dingle link and shown their bias in this regard. But thats a pointless bias because he is a professional manager not an undercover spy for Wolves intent on destroying a club.
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He's nothing like Roy. Look how deep we've been sitting - we're getting 25-30% possession in games - that's Pulis level (if anything, worse).
Hes exactly like Roy.......
We've had less/similar possession in games under Bilic....conveniently forgotten though ::)
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Big Sam is definitely more Hodgson than Pulis.
What he does need though is for the players to buy into his ideas which at the moment for a variety of reasons i am not sure they have done.
(1) Most were signed by Bilic and this is their first real chance at premier league football, by all accounts he was popular with the players and for the last 6-8 games of his spell there were signs (with some shockers) that we were starting to adapt, abeit without getting our rewards. We then pick up a great point at Man City which for the players was the result of the season only to find he is then gone.
All of a sudden after that high and starting to find your feet, you then have to start again, you have a new manager in who will have new ideas, way of playing, etc and the players will then start to have doubts again, that is in no way Big Sams fault.
(2) Allardyce has said himself first thing you have to do is tighten up to give yourself a chance in games, we didnt defend that well under Bilic so i would imagine a lot of work is needed to be done on the training ground, unfortunately he hasnt had much time to get his ideas over for the players to take them on board, we are caught inbetween at the moment and it shows.
I know Stephen Warnock and one of his old Palace players said they were surprised when he took over, he was nothing like they thought, they were expecting a dinosaur but said he was actually very advanced and positive but he made sure first thing was get the defence and organisation sorted.
They said their teams brought into that and got the results, at the moment i dont think we have, there will obviously be a change of style to accomdate trying to tighten the defence, that would obviously impact our flair players the likes of Pereira, Diangana, Krov, Grant, etc and when you are conceding loads of goals as we are, the defenders arent happy and the attacking players arent happy as the methods dont seem to be working! Hopefully after a couple of weeks on the training ground, this weekend things may start to click.
(3) Short term - When you give managers a contract of 12-18 months like we tend to do it sends out a short term message. A lot of those players will currently be having doubts if they are good enough for this league and whether the new manager fancies them, they know if we go down he will most likely be gone, they know they are good enough for the league below and although they would take a paycut, they will also be back playing in a league they are good in and know they could get their wages back in bonuses from promotion! Its a lot easier to change one person (ie - the manager) than it is a whole squad.
(It wont happen now but when we do put a long term plan in place they need to a manager here is a 3 year contact, help build the club and ideally we will have a DOF who during that 3 years has a manager ready to step in who continues, ie - Mowbray, RDM)
I think the players may not be good enough but the attitude has worried me a few of the games, there may be a bit of confusion about tactics, etc but there is no excuse for no applying yourself. Its very old school but every top manager makes sure they work hard and fight for the ball when they dont have it, the ability and flair then takes over, to me we havent even give ourselves a chance by doing the basics, if you do that and your not good enough, you cant do much about it, but to not even do the basics there is no excuse, we have been very passive and that is soley on the players, not Allardyce.
I would imagine the last month he has assessed the squad on and off the pitch, they do need some leaders and a bit of nous to get us going again, thats why i think the Snodgrass signing could work, ideally you get a couple of signings like that and then a few who can step up like a Choudury, you dont want a team fill of experience or a team full of kids, you need a mix and hopefully Snodgrass will lift us by what has been said about him.
If i was Big Sam, if he hasnt already, i would show the players his record, show that when you buy into his ideas, it works and he keeps you in the premier league, it may be a big change and boring to start (Roy did the same) but get the foundations right and things will improve.
I would say to them the season starts this saturday, he has had a couple of weeks training, Snodgrass is in, hopefully we have another to freshen things up but i would be saying, you win saturday in the local derby, you have the fans onside, it gives staff, players, office staff, fans, etc a lift and all of a sudden things are positive.
Wolves are beatable, they are better than us and probably 6 or 7 times out of 10 they would beat us, but they arent a Liverpool, Man City or Man United, or even a Chelsea or Arsenal, they are in the group of teams below that we should be targeting to try and get points here and there.
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Big Sam is definitely more Hodgson than Pulis.
What he does need though is for the players to buy into his ideas which at the moment for a variety of reasons i am not sure they have done.
(1) Most were signed by Bilic and this is their first real chance at premier league football, by all accounts he was popular with the players and for the last 6-8 games of his spell there were signs (with some shockers) that we were starting to adapt, abeit without getting our rewards. We then pick up a great point at Man City which for the players was the result of the season only to find he is then gone.
All of a sudden after that high and starting to find your feet, you then have to start again, you have a new manager in who will have new ideas, way of playing, etc and the players will then start to have doubts again, that is in no way Big Sams fault.
(2) Allardyce has said himself first thing you have to do is tighten up to give yourself a chance in games, we didnt defend that well under Bilic so i would imagine a lot of work is needed to be done on the training ground, unfortunately he hasnt had much time to get his ideas over for the players to take them on board, we are caught inbetween at the moment and it shows.
I know Stephen Warnock and one of his old Palace players said they were surprised when he took over, he was nothing like they thought, they were expecting a dinosaur but said he was actually very advanced and positive but he made sure first thing was get the defence and organisation sorted.
They said their teams brought into that and got the results, at the moment i dont think we have, there will obviously be a change of style to accomdate trying to tighten the defence, that would obviously impact our flair players the likes of Pereira, Diangana, Krov, Grant, etc and when you are conceding loads of goals as we are, the defenders arent happy and the attacking players arent happy as the methods dont seem to be working! Hopefully after a couple of weeks on the training ground, this weekend things may start to click.
(3) Short term - When you give managers a contract of 12-18 months like we tend to do it sends out a short term message. A lot of those players will currently be having doubts if they are good enough for this league and whether the new manager fancies them, they know if we go down he will most likely be gone, they know they are good enough for the league below and although they would take a paycut, they will also be back playing in a league they are good in and know they could get their wages back in bonuses from promotion! Its a lot easier to change one person (ie - the manager) than it is a whole squad.
(It wont happen now but when we do put a long term plan in place they need to a manager here is a 3 year contact, help build the club and ideally we will have a DOF who during that 3 years has a manager ready to step in who continues, ie - Mowbray, RDM)
I think the players may not be good enough but the attitude has worried me a few of the games, there may be a bit of confusion about tactics, etc but there is no excuse for no applying yourself. Its very old school but every top manager makes sure they work hard and fight for the ball when they dont have it, the ability and flair then takes over, to me we havent even give ourselves a chance by doing the basics, if you do that and your not good enough, you cant do much about it, but to not even do the basics there is no excuse, we have been very passive and that is soley on the players, not Allardyce.
I would imagine the last month he has assessed the squad on and off the pitch, they do need some leaders and a bit of nous to get us going again, thats why i think the Snodgrass signing could work, ideally you get a couple of signings like that and then a few who can step up like a Choudury, you dont want a team fill of experience or a team full of kids, you need a mix and hopefully Snodgrass will lift us by what has been said about him.
If i was Big Sam, if he hasnt already, i would show the players his record, show that when you buy into his ideas, it works and he keeps you in the premier league, it may be a big change and boring to start (Roy did the same) but get the foundations right and things will improve.
I would say to them the season starts this saturday, he has had a couple of weeks training, Snodgrass is in, hopefully we have another to freshen things up but i would be saying, you win saturday in the local derby, you have the fans onside, it gives staff, players, office staff, fans, etc a lift and all of a sudden things are positive.
Wolves are beatable, they are better than us and probably 6 or 7 times out of 10 they would beat us, but they arent a Liverpool, Man City or Man United, or even a Chelsea or Arsenal, they are in the group of teams below that we should be targeting to try and get points here and there.
An excellent post Albion79...and one I can fully agree with.
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Hes exactly like Roy.......
We've had less/similar possession in games under Bilic....conveniently forgotten though ::)
A lot of things are conveniently forgotten or overlooked when lamenting the loss of a loved one. Especially when their replacement looks and sounds a bit rough but still goes public with your 'shortcomings' and implies that your ex really wasn't all you thought they were.
Bilic was a breath of fresh air. When Samuel arrived he dropped a big dump at the training ground, closed the windows and turned the heating up. It's too warm for some, too smelly for others and downright disgusting for more.
Ultimately it's a marriage of convenience. Sam doesn't bat his eyelids because he's here to stick his arm up the u bend of our squad, give it a good squish and see if there's anything worth saving before it and we are flushed. I'm not his greatest fan but I'm willing to break out the air freshener.
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Big Sam is definitely more Hodgson than Pulis.
What he does need though is for the players to buy into his ideas which at the moment for a variety of reasons i am not sure they have done.
(1) Most were signed by Bilic and this is their first real chance at premier league football, by all accounts he was popular with the players and for the last 6-8 games of his spell there were signs (with some shockers) that we were starting to adapt, abeit without getting our rewards. We then pick up a great point at Man City which for the players was the result of the season only to find he is then gone.
All of a sudden after that high and starting to find your feet, you then have to start again, you have a new manager in who will have new ideas, way of playing, etc and the players will then start to have doubts again, that is in no way Big Sams fault.
(2) Allardyce has said himself first thing you have to do is tighten up to give yourself a chance in games, we didnt defend that well under Bilic so i would imagine a lot of work is needed to be done on the training ground, unfortunately he hasnt had much time to get his ideas over for the players to take them on board, we are caught inbetween at the moment and it shows.
I know Stephen Warnock and one of his old Palace players said they were surprised when he took over, he was nothing like they thought, they were expecting a dinosaur but said he was actually very advanced and positive but he made sure first thing was get the defence and organisation sorted.
They said their teams brought into that and got the results, at the moment i dont think we have, there will obviously be a change of style to accomdate trying to tighten the defence, that would obviously impact our flair players the likes of Pereira, Diangana, Krov, Grant, etc and when you are conceding loads of goals as we are, the defenders arent happy and the attacking players arent happy as the methods dont seem to be working! Hopefully after a couple of weeks on the training ground, this weekend things may start to click.
(3) Short term - When you give managers a contract of 12-18 months like we tend to do it sends out a short term message. A lot of those players will currently be having doubts if they are good enough for this league and whether the new manager fancies them, they know if we go down he will most likely be gone, they know they are good enough for the league below and although they would take a paycut, they will also be back playing in a league they are good in and know they could get their wages back in bonuses from promotion! Its a lot easier to change one person (ie - the manager) than it is a whole squad.
(It wont happen now but when we do put a long term plan in place they need to a manager here is a 3 year contact, help build the club and ideally we will have a DOF who during that 3 years has a manager ready to step in who continues, ie - Mowbray, RDM)
I think the players may not be good enough but the attitude has worried me a few of the games, there may be a bit of confusion about tactics, etc but there is no excuse for no applying yourself. Its very old school but every top manager makes sure they work hard and fight for the ball when they dont have it, the ability and flair then takes over, to me we havent even give ourselves a chance by doing the basics, if you do that and your not good enough, you cant do much about it, but to not even do the basics there is no excuse, we have been very passive and that is soley on the players, not Allardyce.
I would imagine the last month he has assessed the squad on and off the pitch, they do need some leaders and a bit of nous to get us going again, thats why i think the Snodgrass signing could work, ideally you get a couple of signings like that and then a few who can step up like a Choudury, you dont want a team fill of experience or a team full of kids, you need a mix and hopefully Snodgrass will lift us by what has been said about him.
If i was Big Sam, if he hasnt already, i would show the players his record, show that when you buy into his ideas, it works and he keeps you in the premier league, it may be a big change and boring to start (Roy did the same) but get the foundations right and things will improve.
I would say to them the season starts this saturday, he has had a couple of weeks training, Snodgrass is in, hopefully we have another to freshen things up but i would be saying, you win saturday in the local derby, you have the fans onside, it gives staff, players, office staff, fans, etc a lift and all of a sudden things are positive.
Wolves are beatable, they are better than us and probably 6 or 7 times out of 10 they would beat us, but they arent a Liverpool, Man City or Man United, or even a Chelsea or Arsenal, they are in the group of teams below that we should be targeting to try and get points here and there.
I'll buy into everything you say except for one thing..................
Good leaders and managers don't criticise their team members in public.
SA has done nothing else.
Even Pulis didn't hang the players out to dry in public.
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Allardyce has probably seen well enough. The players are of little worth as a collective due to their mental weakness. No point telling them they are great. They need saving from one another if they are to go on and have careers of some relative success. They need to be split apart and moved on for mutual benefit as much as we can.
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I should just add as much as i want it to work i dont think it will.
As said previous, i think we have too many players in our squad not suited to make Big Sams plans work, its a mismatch, i think he will improve things regarding organisation, etc but unless he gets to really revamp the team with at least 5-6 first teamers who all come in and do a job pretty much right away, i just dont think it will work, i think it would be very lucky if you sign that many players in the first place, let alone they all come in and do well.
If he was given the backing for what he wants i think he could probably keep us up, what cost that would have with regards to older players, wages, etc for future seasons would remain to be seen and it would probably be very much short term planning but thats the way we are at the moment.
I think the best we can hope for is probably 3-4 new signings who come in and do well and then current players buy into what Sam is doing, raise their standards above what they have so far, i think 1 or 2 may do that but we really need all our team playing better than they have been and showing they are good enough for this level, sadly i just dont think we have enough who are / can.
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Some points about Allardyce:
1) OK so training hours are limited due to Covid. What's stopping him from talking to the whole group of players morning, noon and night to get his ideas across? Even if its on Zoom.
2) In football it's a given that you work with players brought in by a previous Manager. This cannot be labelled as an excuse. SA knew he has to navigate through at least 6 wks of a congested Xmas schedule before he could get his hands on new players. This period was critical to the success of his tenure in keeping the club in the division.
3) Why are we not seeing the stamp of an Allardyce team, at least in the GA column? The one thing he has done is reduce possession more in keeping with his teams.
4) I'd rate his performance so far 1/10. That's for turning up to work. Obliterated in almost every match and failing to beat Blackpool.
5) When is he actually accountable for his performance in the job?
6) Has he lost motivation in the job already?
7) There's intelligent football people on this site that would do the job for a tenth of Allardyce's wages. Where is Allardyce's managerial skill, I can't see it?
8) The players sure are lacking in ability and confidence, but it's the Managers responsibility.
I'm 99% sure we will lose to WW, but I'd just take a stirring performance as a source of pride.
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Some points about Allardyce:
1) OK so training hours are limited due to Covid. What's stopping him from talking to the whole group of players morning, noon and night to get his ideas across? Even if its on Zoom.
2) In football it's a given that you work with players brought in by a previous Manager. This cannot be labelled as an excuse. SA knew he has to navigate through at least 6 wks of a congested Xmas schedule before he could get his hands on new players. This period was critical to the success of his tenure in keeping the club in the division.
3) Why are we not seeing the stamp of an Allardyce team, at least in the GA column? The one thing he has done is reduce possession more in keeping with his teams.
4) I'd rate his performance so far 1/10. That's for turning up to work. Obliterated in almost every match and failing to beat Blackpool.
5) When is he actually accountable for his performance in the job?
6) Has he lost motivation in the job already?
7) There's intelligent football people on this site that would do the job for a tenth of Allardyce's wages. Where is Allardyce's managerial skill, I can't see it?
8) The players sure are lacking in ability and confidence, but it's the Managers responsibility.
I'm 99% sure we will lose to WW, but I'd just take a stirring performance as a source of pride.
Exactly, and one thing Sam is renowned for is his use of statistics and technology. Yet despite having stats and technology coming out of his ears he needs half a dozen games to find out what the team's made of? Every single game these players have played will be on video, from multiple angles, with huge amounts of stats.
It wasn't that long ago that we went into games hoping for a win and thinking we've got a good chance. Now we go into games hoping we don't get hammered. Since Sam has taken over our GA column has doubled. It says a lot that we're going into a game against Wolves and I think keeping the GA to below 3 would be a good result.
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By the time this game comes around Allardyce has had half of January to get in a central midfielder and has failed.
Sawyers or Livermore and a Loss is a formality.
Failing that play Harper, how can he actually be any worse?
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By the time this game comes around Allardyce has had half of January to get in a central midfielder and has failed.
Sawyers or Livermore and a Loss is a formality.
Failing that play Harper, how can he actually be any worse?
Bit harsh, Bilic had best part of 18 months to sort it and didn't.
Also fair to say Allardyce has identified who he wants and the player wants to come here. It's over to the board to work their magic now.
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Bit harsh, Bilic had best part of 18 months to sort it and didn't.
Also fair to say Allardyce has identified who he wants and the player wants to come here. It's over to the board to work their magic now.
Go on about Bilic all you want. It took us 11 months to get out the Championship (after Covid). Sawyers & Livermore were adequate then. Yes in hindsight they should've been replaced in August.
If Allardyce was sharp he'd have drafted someone in on 3rd January post Arsenal. The inadequacy was for all to see. Even a £500,000 central midfielder from the Swedish Premier would've improved matters!
How much evidence does the bloke need? He can watch Football highlights round the clock, player databases of player performance.
There is no excuse to reach 13 January with no incoming midfielder.
Furthermore he still hasn't ditched Ivanovic, when it's clear O'Shea, Ajayi & Bartley are all better (despite limitations).
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Go on about Bilic all you want. It took us 11 months to get out the Championship (after Covid). Sawyers & Livermore were adequate then. Yes in hindsight they should've been replaced in August.
If Allardyce was sharp he'd have drafted someone in on 3rd January post Arsenal. The inadequacy was for all to see. Even a £500,000 central midfielder from the Swedish Premier would've improved matters!
How much evidence does the bloke need? He can watch Football highlights round the clock, player databases of player performance.
There is no excuse to reach 13 January with no incoming midfielder.
Furthermore he still hasn't ditched Ivanovic, when it's clear O'Shea, Ajayi & Bartley are all better (despite limitations).
The glaring omission of a DCM has been clear to see for over a season.
I'm sure if you gave Allardyce the power to sign Choudhury he'd do it tommorow. He can't. Mad to suggest the boards failings/inactivity are anything to do with him. Even those of us that felt Bilic time was over gave Bilic that credit.
I dont think he needs evidence, he said he has seen all he needs to see. He wants them out ASAP and new players in ASAP.
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If Allardyce was sharp he'd have drafted someone in on 3rd January post Arsenal. The inadequacy was for all to see. Even a £500,000 central midfielder from the Swedish Premier would've improved matters!
How much evidence does the bloke need? He can watch Football highlights round the clock, player databases of player performance.
There is no excuse to reach 13 January with no incoming midfielder.
Furthermore he still hasn't ditched Ivanovic, when it's clear O'Shea, Ajayi & Bartley are all better (despite limitations).
Well I think it’s clear they’re trying to get a midfielder.
There are a host of reasons as to why we haven’t - the main one being that Allardyce isn’t in charge of negotiations
It’s Allardyce bashing for the sake of it.
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Well I think it’s clear they’re trying to get a midfielder.
There are a host of reasons as to why we haven’t - the main one being that Allardyce isn’t in charge of negotiations
It’s Allardyce bashing for the sake of it.
What's wrong with getting A.CM in now then still trying to get Choudry later in the window?
We are absolutely desperate, lower than a snakes belly.
We couldn't even beat a League 1 team in 2 hours of football.
We are going to get pummelled on Saturday.
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Watch La Liga and have a look at what a high quality league that is.
A team like Eibar, 7000 capacity in a tiny town. Why not go after their players, they'll be on a pittance in terms of wages.
Good players are out there for lower fees, the likes of Mulumbu and Odemwingue.
Our staff should be working day and night to get in at least 7 players as early as possible.
Then we can look ourselves in the mirror and we've done everything.....
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I agree with you Greg but neither Bilic or Allardyce can do a thing about that. THats the higher ups jobs.
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By the time this game comes around Allardyce has had half of January to get in a central midfielder and has failed.
Sawyers or Livermore and a Loss is a formality.
Failing that play Harper, how can he actually be any worse?
It’s Dowlings job not Allardyce, but I’m sure you know that really
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I agree with you Greg but neither Bilic or Allardyce can do a thing about that. THats the higher ups jobs.
It is to do with Allardyce. It's up to him to highlight these "diamonds" from Europe. If they are cheap enough Dowling can get them over the line. The British Market is notoriously inflated. If Allardyce is limiting himself there, he is taking a massive risk.
We are messing around IMO. We have another 3 or 4 league fixtures before end of Jan. It's slipping away with every passing game.
Our players are not only inadequate technically but are mentally shot. We have been losing by a big margin.
Bilic got a tune from them to the value of 7pts from 13 games (and should've been more). Allardyce is struggling right now, no 2 ways about it.
We've got no chance with just 2 or 3 signings (and right at the end of Jan).
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It is to do with Allardyce. It's up to him to highlight these "diamonds" from Europe. If they are cheap enough Dowling can get them over the line. The British Market is notoriously inflated. If Allardyce is limiting himself there, he is taking a massive risk.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but I’m fairly sure it’s the other way around, it’s it Dowlings job to come to Allardyce with the ‘diamonds’ from Europe.
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It is to do with Allardyce. It's up to him to highlight these "diamonds" from Europe. If they are cheap enough Dowling can get them over the line. The British Market is notoriously inflated. If Allardyce is limiting himself there, he is taking a massive risk.
We are messing around IMO. We have another 3 or 4 league fixtures before end of Jan. It's slipping away with every passing game.
Our players are not only inadequate technically but are mentally shot. We have been losing by a big margin.
Bilic got a tune from them to the value of 7pts from 13 games (and should've been more). Allardyce is struggling right now, no 2 ways about it.
We've got no chance with just 2 or 3 signings (and right at the end of Jan).
For us to use any of our foreign loans was incredibly naive. Now with new Brexit rules it makes them a lot harder to just go to Europe.
Allardyce himself said he had 3 signings lined up but all fell foul to immigration rules.
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Someone correct me if I am wrong but I’m fairly sure it’s the other way around, it’s it Dowlings job to come to Allardyce with the ‘diamonds’ from Europe.
What are you talking about?
Allardyce was a professional centre back for Bolton, Sunderland plus a few others. He has managed for 25 years. He has a lifetime in football.
Dowling's knowledge is not as comprehensive. Dowling is surely a link man between Chairman and Manager (SA)?
Allardyce should be pulling the strings not Dowling signing players, surely?
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What are you talking about?
Allardyce was a professional centre back for Bolton, Sunderland plus a few others. He has managed for 25 years. He has a lifetime in football.
Dowling's knowledge is not as comprehensive. Dowling is surely a link man between Chairman and Manager (SA)?
Allardyce should be pulling the strings not Dowling signing players, surely?
Going a bit off topic here, but the role of a director of football is to manage the football operation, including scouting and recruitment, while the role of the head coach is to coach, prepare the team for match days and the on the day performance.
This is squarely on Dowling, albeit Allardyce will have his input (as seems to be the case).
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Going a bit off topic here, but the role of a director of football is to manage the football operation, including scouting and recruitment, while the role of the head coach is to coach, prepare the team for match days and the on the day performance.
This is squarely on Dowling, albeit Allardyce will have his input (as seems to be the case).
That might seem correct in principle.
In reality, can you really see Dowling dictating to the fearsome Allardyce on who he should sign? Because I can't visualise that, never in a million years.....
5 league matches between now and 2 February. The clock is ticking..... No way can we afford to wait until 31 January.
Wolves AWAY
WHU AWAY
Man C HOME
next 3 matches.
The whole point of sacking Bilic was to revitalise the playing squad, a toughening up process, belief, being streetwise.
We have done nothing apart from Snodgrass.
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What are you talking about?
Allardyce was a professional centre back for Bolton, Sunderland plus a few others. He has managed for 25 years. He has a lifetime in football.
Dowling's knowledge is not as comprehensive. Dowling is surely a link man between Chairman and Manager (SA)?
Allardyce should be pulling the strings not Dowling signing players, surely?
Dowling is responsible for player recruitment and negotiations for transfers.
And yes, that will include signing players - It’s why we ended up with Kipre in the summer and both Austin and Zohore previously.
Had the head coach had total control then Bilic would have signed Grant and Krovinovic at the start of the summer.
Allardyce will have his suggestions but it is up to Dowling to get them over the line.
You also talk of Allardyce limiting us to a British market - that totally ignores the whole Dowling approach which has seen pretty much all of his business completed domestically.
Hammering Allardyce for this issue of not getting players in quick enough when he has consistently championed the need to get bodies in is just attacking him for the sake of it.
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Dowling is responsible for player recruitment and negotiations for transfers.
And yes, that will include signing players - It’s why we ended up with Kipre in the summer and both Austin and Zohore previously.
Had the head coach had total control then Bilic would have signed Grant and Krovinovic at the start of the summer.
Allardyce will have his suggestions but it is up to Dowling to get them over the line.
You also talk of Allardyce limiting us to a British market - that totally ignores the whole Dowling approach which has seen pretty much all of his business completed domestically.
Hammering Allardyce for this issue of not getting players in quick enough when he has consistently championed the need to get bodies in is just attacking him for the sake of it.
Allardyce's head is on the chopping block. Just in the same way sections of the fan base wanted Bilic hustled and hounded out. Despite 7 pts from 13 games and a blank refusal to acknowledge valuable points lost due to VAR.
We are just sleep walking to disaster. We have been mullered by everyone apart from the 2 "*pool" matches and the latter was embarrassing.
If I was Allardyce I'd be straining every sinew to overturn the playing staff as they are completely gone, mentally shot. Whereas it was working up to a point for Bilic, its completely broken right now.
The failure to add reinforcements 13 days in is a failure already.
Are people just going to shrug their shoulders if its 5-0 at Molineux?
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Allardyce's head is on the chopping block. Just in the same way sections of the fan base wanted Bilic hustled and hounded out. Despite 7 pts from 13 games and a blank refusal to acknowledge valuable points lost due to VAR.
We are just sleep walking to disaster. We have been mullered by everyone apart from the 2 "*pool" matches and the latter was embarrassing.
If I was Allardyce I'd be straining every sinew to overturn the playing staff as they are completely gone, mentally shot. Whereas it was working up to a point for Bilic, its completely broken right now.
The failure to add reinforcements 13 days in is a failure already.
Are people just going to shrug their shoulders if its 5-0 at Molineux?
What else is there to do?
Get all bitter and twisted.
We can't vote with our feet, we can't use our voice, we can attack on social media but doesn't have the same effect imo.
We have to face facts and accept that we are the worst team in the league and could be heading for the label of the worst team in Premier League history.
It will take time and a lot of changes, but we will be back (said in an Austrian accent)
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Allardyce's head is on the chopping block. Just in the same way sections of the fan base wanted Bilic hustled and hounded out. Despite 7 pts from 13 games and a blank refusal to acknowledge valuable points lost due to VAR.
We are just sleep walking to disaster. We have been mullered by everyone apart from the 2 "*pool" matches and the latter was embarrassing.
If I was Allardyce I'd be straining every sinew to overturn the playing staff as they are completely gone, mentally shot. Whereas it was working up to a point for Bilic, its completely broken right now.
The failure to add reinforcements 13 days in is a failure already.
Are people just going to shrug their shoulders if its 5-0 at Molineux?
We have known that ever since we realised that the owner was not going to invest in the team. Mourinho could not get a tune out of this team so it is pointless blaming Sam. We have some talented players, but we need more quality in the team and Dowling can only recruit with the funds he has been provided with.
I would respect Sam if he just resigned due to lack of backing, we are a complete shambles, and yes it may be 5-0 on Saturday. Anything less will be half a result for us. If we got a point I would be ecstatic but I am not expecting anything, and I know who I blame for this whole debacle.
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For us to use any of our foreign loans was incredibly naive. Now with new Brexit rules it makes them a lot harder to just go to Europe.
Allardyce himself said he had 3 signings lined up but all fell foul to immigration rules.
Those same new immigration rules which Allardyce should have known about before he took the role? Brexit has been hurtling towards us for a long time. It is simply not an acceptable excuse. We can only acquire players who meet the new criteria, abs because of COVID they are likely to have to do 14 days isolation on arrival, and then get matchfit after that.
It is all far too late to be bringing in players from abroad. They should have been lined up and arriving in the first week of January. As a result we are limited to players who are already in the country.
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We have known that ever since we realised that the owner was not going to invest in the team. Mourinho could not get a tune out of this team so it is pointless blaming Sam. We have some talented players, but we need more quality in the team and Dowling can only recruit with the funds he has been provided with.
I would respect Sam if he just resigned due to lack of backing, we are a complete shambles, and yes it may be 5-0 on Saturday. Anything less will be half a result for us. If we got a point I would be ecstatic but I am not expecting anything, and I know who I blame for this whole debacle.
So according to your theory, you would think the previous manager would have been absolved of blame too?
But no certain fans thought it wise to remove him and get in the current man.
So you think a lack of transfer action now means Allardyce can have a free ride until May even if we continue to get tanked 4 or 5 nil in league games?
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So according to your theory, you would think the previous manager would have been absolved of blame too?
But no certain fans thought it wise to remove him and get in the current man.
So you think a lack of transfer action now means Allardyce can have a free ride until May even if we continue to get tanked 4 or 5 nil in league games?
Bilic should not be entirely absolved of blame. Some players are here because of him [good and bad] and his style could have been effective had there been more investment - we will never know.
Sam is now here and needs time to get his own players in. If there is a lack of transfer action, then who's fault is that because it certainly isn't Sam's?
I very much doubt he will get a free ride until May if he gets at least some of his players in, but given our predicament then I cannot think of any other manager who would do better with the resources and money available. If we dont procure any more players then we will probably get tonked in most games, as we do not deserve to be in this league.
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If we don't procure any additions to our squad we'll be making a declaration of surrender without having declared war. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of Dowling's office. His face is already too big for the rest of his head and must be about to pop with frustration at the mo'. He'll be a right sight should we reach deadline day with no additions. Imagery can be a funny old thing ;D .
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Going a bit off topic here, but the role of a director of football is to manage the football operation, including scouting and recruitment, while the role of the head coach is to coach, prepare the team for match days and the on the day performance.
This is squarely on Dowling, albeit Allardyce will have his input (as seems to be the case).
continuing off topic, if that is the extent of Allardyces duties and also allegedly Sammy Lee takes coaching sessions most of the time with Allardyce rolling up on thursday / Fridayish (dependent on when sky wants to put us on (don't start me on that one)), he seems to be on a pretty cushy number for the next few months before he wanders off with his cheque.
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Big Sam's a very busy man behind the scenes. Little Sam coaches day to day, Luke Dowling signs players from the 'worldwide search' on FIFA 2021 while Big Sam shuffles the deck chairs.
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but given our predicament then I cannot think of any other manager who would do better with the resources and money available. If we dont procure any more players then we will probably get tonked in most games, as we do not deserve to be in this league.
Bilic was doing better for one.
I'd also suggest any manager who doesn't rely on a poor set of defenders defending for 80 minutes in a game would do a better job. We are playing the worst possible tactics for this squad - and that's solely at the hands of the manager telling them to play that way.
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Then we can look ourselves in the mirror and we've done everything.....
There's the problem - the board don't want to have "done everything", they want to have "done cheaply".
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What else is there to do?
Get all bitter and twisted.
We can't vote with our feet, we can't use our voice, we can attack on social media but doesn't have the same effect imo.
We have to face facts and accept that we are the worst team in the league and could be heading for the label of the worst team in Premier League history.
It will take time and a lot of changes, but we will be back (said in an Austrian accent)
We are not as bad as our recent results have made us look though.
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I think it probably fair to say I am less than happy about Allardyce's appointment so there is no question of giving him a free pass to the end of the season. The transition from Bilic to Allardyce has gone about as well as I expected.
Pinning our hopes on signing his type of player in January was always a long shot. Even setting aside the lack of resources to do it, the nature of the market in January means selling clubs for the most part won't release players until they have got to the end of the month with a generally healthy squad. Doubly so this year with the threat of Covid. If for instance I was Leicester City considering loaning Choudrey there is no way I would do so before the team had played ay least 3 of the 5 fixtures they have still to play this month.
Much is made of the January business he did at Palace but the reality is 3 of the 4 didn't arrive until the last week of January even Sakho who by that stage Liverpool could not rush out the door quick enough arrived at the last minute.
If that pattern repeats we will be dead before the window closes and the new players have any meaningful impact rendering a pointless appointment even more pointless.
If we wanted to go down this path we should have done it in the summer as brutal as that sounds. We have managed to conjure up the worse of all possible worlds.
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Bilic was doing better for one.
I'd also suggest any manager who doesn't rely on a poor set of defenders defending for 80 minutes in a game would do a better job. We are playing the worst possible tactics for this squad - and that's solely at the hands of the manager telling them to play that way.
The defenders were there when Sam was recruited. You know what you are getting with him so perhaps the fault lies with recruitment for not getting another 'Bilic type' manager. We cannot play 'we are going to score one more than you' tactics in this division.
You say he shouldn't rely on a poor set of defenders, but he can hardly rely on our lightweight midfield and none existent attack either can he?
We sold our only decent defender to a Saudi club, probably the only one who could play the 'Sam' way.
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We 100% need to do business very quickly and I agree that if we don't get things done by the end of the window we could very well be well cut off. After today we could be 7-9 points behind, the weekend could increase that to 10-12. It's already a big big ask so the board need to just get deals done. Back him or bust.
As Standaman says, this would've been far better being done in summer but we faffed then pulled the trigger in a terrible moment for moral. We've then faffed in the window. All our board do is faff.
Any blame on transfers really can't lie at Allardyce with the structure of our club and I don't know what him being a CB at Bolton many many years ago has to do with transfers. The way we are structured things lie with Dowling and "Ken."
You'd think a club would get a manager in place and say "we have xyz deals this far down the line and they will be coming in at the start of January to help the fight against relegation" but it looks like that isn't the way.
Allardyce has my backing but I'm beginning to really question Dowling and co.
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Bilic was doing better for one.
I'd also suggest any manager who doesn't rely on a poor set of defenders defending for 80 minutes in a game would do a better job. We are playing the worst possible tactics for this squad - and that's solely at the hands of the manager telling them to play that way.
Christ the sooner Allardyce picks up another 6 points the better so this appalling shout stops. 7 points from 13 games is totally unacceptable even if the manager has got the greatest personality in the world.
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Christ the sooner Allardyce picks up another 6 points the better so this appalling shout stops. 7 points from 13 games is totally unacceptable even if the manager has got the greatest personality in the world.
And how is he going to pick up another 6pts currently? We couldn't even beat Blackpool in 2 hours of football. We have been battered by Villa, Leeds and Arsenal. I can't even see where we'll pick up a draw.
The likes of Ivanovic, Livermore, Sawyers, Grant should've been bombed out of starting team within a couple of weeks. Why are they still being selected? Why hasn't he dipped into the squad to blood other players like Kipre, Harper, Edwards etc. OK Grosicki is brought in which is a positive move.
We could've gone leftfield and brought in low cost players already. SA is not reacting quick enough to atrocious performances.
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And how is he going to pick up another 6pts currently? We couldn't even beat Blackpool in 2 hours of football. We have been battered by Villa, Leeds and Arsenal. I can't even see where we'll pick up a draw.
The likes of Ivanovic, Livermore, Sawyers, Grant should've been bombed out of starting team within a couple of weeks. Why are they still being selected? Why hasn't he dipped into the squad to blood other players like Kipre, Harper, Edwards etc. OK Grosicki is brought in which is a positive move.
We could've gone leftfield and brought in low cost players already. SA is not reacting quick enough to atrocious performances.
Told you Jacko lol ;D
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And how is he going to pick up another 6pts currently? We couldn't even beat Blackpool in 2 hours of football. We have been battered by Villa, Leeds and Arsenal. I can't even see where we'll pick up a draw.
The likes of Ivanovic, Livermore, Sawyers, Grant should've been bombed out of starting team within a couple of weeks. Why are they still being selected? Why hasn't he dipped into the squad to blood other players like Kipre, Harper, Edwards etc. OK Grosicki is brought in which is a positive move.
We could've gone leftfield and brought in low cost players already. SA is not reacting quick enough to atrocious performances.
Someone like Ivanovic?
What low cost leftfield players did you have in mind Greg?
Harper and Edwards desperately need to go out on loan as they are not good enough, Grant needs service up front, and I agree with you on Ivanovic. SA does not buy the players and therein lies the problem.
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Those same new immigration rules which Allardyce should have known about before he took the role? Brexit has been hurtling towards us for a long time. It is simply not an acceptable excuse. We can only acquire players who meet the new criteria, abs because of COVID they are likely to have to do 14 days isolation on arrival, and then get matchfit after that.
It is all far too late to be bringing in players from abroad. They should have been lined up and arriving in the first week of January. As a result we are limited to players who are already in the country.
I also didn't know the rules. I assumed , incorrectly, if you were in one of the top leagues and you were a top.flight player there would be no problems.
They should have been brought in before a ball was kicked at the start of the season. Those in charge knew this surely.
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The Covid-19 protocols won't restrict new players coming in from the continent to join the squad assuming there isn't a widespread travel ban. It is straight forward test before departure test on arrival and if both tests are negative player is good to go.
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Told you Jacko lol ;D
Yes woe is me, we'll never get another point ever again...
;D
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And how is he going to pick up another 6pts currently? We couldn't even beat Blackpool in 2 hours of football. We have been battered by Villa, Leeds and Arsenal. I can't even see where we'll pick up a draw.
The likes of Ivanovic, Livermore, Sawyers, Grant should've been bombed out of starting team within a couple of weeks. Why are they still being selected? Why hasn't he dipped into the squad to blood other players like Kipre, Harper, Edwards etc. OK Grosicki is brought in which is a positive move.
We could've gone leftfield and brought in low cost players already. SA is not reacting quick enough to atrocious performances.
Ivanovitch is dreadful and should never have been bought, he wouldn't be in my starting 11 either.
Livermore and Sawyers are still being selected as the alternatives are no better in the same position.. Under Allardyce they have been used mostly as the DM, the best alternative would be Field but he's injured. Would you really want to try either Harper or Krovinovic as a DM? Gallagher could play as a DM I guess but then we'd lose his abilities further up the pitch.
We need a DM, we needed a DM last season and we should have got one in in the Summer but we didn't. Why? At least Allardyce recognises the fact and is trying to get one in.
Grant was being selected as he was no worse than Robinson but neither of them is a lone striker, which is what we've tended to play with all season. What options are there? HRK is injured and Austin was past it. Again Allardyce is trying to get a player that suits the lone striker role in.
Kipre and Edwards had game time on Saturday and Kipre didn't look up to the level required and that was against league 1 opposition. Bilic didn't play him either.
Edwards was okay, he was unlucky with his shot near the end but he needs a loan move to the Championship to develop.
What low cost players would you want us to bring in, bearing in mind the issues that Brexit has caused?
I expected us to be better at the back under Allardyce and we aren't, again though Allardyce is trying to bring in players to rectify this.
The squad is very unbalanced. Bilic brought in players that were suited to the 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 that we played last season and then for some reason decided to play 5-3-2 or 5-4-1 which the players struggled with and certainly didn't get the best out of our flair players. Why? If Bilic knew we wouldn't/couldn't play 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 in the EPL why buy players that were suited to that formation?
Allardyce's biggest problem is trying to get the best out of an unbalanced squad.
If Allardyce can get the players in that he wants for the positions we need then we will have a better chance of staying up than we would have had with Bilic still being in charge.
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The defenders were there when Sam was recruited. You know what you are getting with him so perhaps the fault lies with recruitment for not getting another 'Bilic type' manager. We cannot play 'we are going to score one more than you' tactics in this division.
You say he shouldn't rely on a poor set of defenders, but he can hardly rely on our lightweight midfield and none existent attack either can he?
We sold our only decent defender to a Saudi club, probably the only one who could play the 'Sam' way.
Loaned apparently - beggars belief !
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Yes woe is me, we'll never get another point ever again...
;D
Sorry mate, but you just are just wrong.
Allardyce has turned us into an absolutely woeful outfit. A matter of time before we are overtaken by the Blades.
We absolutely cannot wait for the end of January. Normally a football club would. This is no ordinary scenario.
Even if Allardyce had bought in x3 league 2 players for £1.5m combined I'd have said the guy is trying, fair play.
As it is I see very little being amended apart from Snodgrass and maybe Grosicki selection.
We are so far short of winning a football match its untrue. The players look shot to pieces.
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Loaned apparently - beggars belief !
That makes it worse.....
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Sorry mate, but you just are just wrong.
Allardyce has turned us into an absolutely woeful outfit. A matter of time before we are overtaken by the Blades.
We absolutely cannot wait for the end of January. Normally a football club would. This is no ordinary scenario.
Even if Allardyce had bought in x3 league 2 players for £1.5m combined I'd have said the guy is trying, fair play.
As it is I see very little being amended apart from Snodgrass and maybe Grosicki selection.
We are so far short of winning a football match its untrue. The players look shot to pieces.
Is this a different woeful outfit to the one he inherited?
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Allardyce will have a list of targets as long as his arm. I'm pretty sure Slav would have had too. We are however relying on Dowling and the club to get the players in. This is where the problem lies IMO.
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Is this a different woeful outfit to the one he inherited?
Yes that woeful outfit that drew 1-1 at Man City before Bilic got fired.
So it's acceptable for 0-9 at home to Leeds & Arsenal and to fail against League 1 Blackpool?
For those people keep referring to Dowling's constraints, it is straightforward to make signings for lower league players, or in the event of planning cheap players for the more minor European leagues.
As I said before some seem willing to give Allardyce a free rein even if we lose every match 4-0. How does that work?
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Yes that woeful outfit that drew 1-1 at Man City before Bilic got fired.
So it's acceptable for 0-9 at home to Leeds & Arsenal and to fail against League 1 Blackpool?
For those people keep referring to Dowling's constraints, it is straightforward to make signings for lower league players, or in the event of planning cheap players for the more minor European leagues.
As I said before some seem willing to give Allardyce a free rein even if we lose every match 4-0. How does that work?
I never said it was acceptable, and if you are going to sign lower league players you will end up with a lower league team. We are half way there already in my opinion.
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Yes that woeful outfit that drew 1-1 at Man City before Bilic got fired.
So it's acceptable for 0-9 at home to Leeds & Arsenal and to fail against League 1 Blackpool?
For those people keep referring to Dowling's constraints, it is straightforward to make signings for lower league players, or in the event of planning cheap players for the more minor European leagues.
As I said before some seem willing to give Allardyce a free rein even if we lose every match 4-0. How does that work?
The woeful outfit drew with Liverpool.
I don't think anybody is willing to give "free rein" to Allardyce they just want to give the new manager a chance. The team had lost woefully at Southampton and Fulham with no real fight, lost back to back games to Newcastle and Palace. I think this comparison to Bilic is failing. Bilic having 7 points from 13 games and Allardyce having 1 from 4 isn't really any sort of argument that proves anything positive about Bilic. It just proves that Allardyce hasn't turned it around yet.
Brexit is a major factor here when you keep mentioning cheap European signings! Not so simple anymore sadly.
Kipre - lower league signing, Grant, Robinson both similar status to us with minimal Prem experience and cheaper - jury still out. Ajayi and Townsend lower league signings and not doing enough. Ivanovic - cheap European signing - failing.
That's 6 players straight away.
I 100% agree that there should be signings in place already but you're idea appears to be similar to the scatter gun approach of the club that isn't working.
We need players that Allardyce has confidence in and will play. Snodgrass is the start of that.
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So Sam has had his assessment period and got one player in so far. He has also had an uninterrupted week with the players following our Cup exit.
From now on we should expect to see some improvements imo. My amnesty regards team selection (to the extent of what he's limited by) and in game decisions is now over.
Over to you Sam.
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The defenders were there when Sam was recruited. You know what you are getting with him so perhaps the fault lies with recruitment for not getting another 'Bilic type' manager. We cannot play 'we are going to score one more than you' tactics in this division.
You say he shouldn't rely on a poor set of defenders, but he can hardly rely on our lightweight midfield and none existent attack either can he?
We sold our only decent defender to a Saudi club, probably the only one who could play the 'Sam' way.
You look at a squad and play to its strengths though surely? You don't play a fast counter attacking game if you have HRK leading the line. Likewise you don't lump cross into the box if you've got Michael Owen up there. Likewise you don't play a super defensive game when your back 4 are the weakest part of the squad.
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Christ the sooner Allardyce picks up another 6 points the better so this appalling shout stops. 7 points from 13 games is totally unacceptable even if the manager has got the greatest personality in the world.
He asked who could do better with this team. I pointed out 1 manager who we *definitely* know did better.
Yes, 7 points from 13 games isn't great - even if we were done out of quite a few extra points via VAR - it's still better though.
1 point frrom 4 games, doubling our goals against column, and never really getting out of our own half is even worse.
WE can't use the "name a manager who would do better", then moan when someone names one.
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The Covid-19 protocols won't restrict new players coming in from the continent to join the squad assuming there isn't a widespread travel ban. It is straight forward test before departure test on arrival and if both tests are negative player is good to go.
I thought there was also 10 days self-isolation?
https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/self-isolating-when-you-arrive
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You look at a squad and play to its strengths though surely? You don't play a fast counter attacking game if you have HRK leading the line. Likewise you don't lump cross into the box if you've got Michael Owen up there. Likewise you don't play a super defensive game when your back 4 are the weakest part of the squad.
OK, so I am looking at the present squad.
What's its strengths boinging?
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OK, so I am looking at the present squad.
What's its strengths boinging?
Pereira - That's about it! ;D
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Pereira - That's about it! ;D
You got one more than me Smethwick ;D
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The woeful outfit drew with Liverpool.
I don't think anybody is willing to give "free rein" to Allardyce they just want to give the new manager a chance. The team had lost woefully at Southampton and Fulham with no real fight, lost back to back games to Newcastle and Palace. I think this comparison to Bilic is failing. Bilic having 7 points from 13 games and Allardyce having 1 from 4 isn't really any sort of argument that proves anything positive about Bilic. It just proves that Allardyce hasn't turned it around yet.
Brexit is a major factor here when you keep mentioning cheap European signings! Not so simple anymore sadly.
Kipre - lower league signing, Grant, Robinson both similar status to us with minimal Prem experience and cheaper - jury still out. Ajayi and Townsend lower league signings and not doing enough. Ivanovic - cheap European signing - failing.
That's 6 players straight away.
I 100% agree that there should be signings in place already but you're idea appears to be similar to the scatter gun approach of the club that isn't working.
We need players that Allardyce has confidence in and will play. Snodgrass is the start of that.
Do you think the performances have improved at all? It's fine listing losses, but at least we were in those games compared to Villa, Arsenal and Leeds. And let's face it, the result flattered us against Liverpool - that could easily have turned into another Leeds game.
I'm with you about the signings - cheap lower league signings aren't going to get us anywhere, and Brexit has thrown a spanner in European signings. It doesn't leave us with many options. Dowling should have realised this before he appointed a manager who would require massive changes to the squad.
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OK, so I am looking at the present squad.
What's its strengths boinging?
(Note, when I say 'better', I don't mean 'good enough', I just mean 'better').
We play better with the ball on the floor and passing it through midfield. Getting Pierera and Diangana on the ball in attacking areas is much more productive than them sitting 40 yards from our own goal. In Robinson and Grant we have players who prefer the ball in front of them to run onto. The defence is better when the ball isn't coming back at them constantly.
Watch all the games on TV and show me which teams set up as deep and defensively minded as we do. Spurs are 'defensive' but they still average 40% possession and don't sit as deep as we do. We're getting around 30% possession in games - I can't believe that anyone thinks that's the right thing to do with a squad that performs better with the ball than without.
I've said it a million times - the way Sam sets us up to play is the absolute worst tactic you could use for this squad of players - and the results agree with me. This is why I believe pretty much any manager who plays a more progressive style of football than Sam would get more out of this squad than Sam is.
And yes, I agree, that Sam could improve things (and I pray he does against the Dingles), but his improvement will come with changes to the squad that sacrifices the quality of the football and seeing as we're going down anyway it seems completely pointless.
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It just proves that Allardyce hasn't turned it around yet.
How long do you want to give him? How far do we have to sink? Maybe to the level where we can't beat a League 1 side?
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I thought there was also 10 days self-isolation?
https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/self-isolating-when-you-arrive
There are work exceptions including for Elite Level Sports People (and yes ours are still considered elite level)
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How long do you want to give him? How far do we have to sink? Maybe to the level where we can't beat a League 1 side?
until the window shuts and he's had a chance to try and balance the squad he was left with I think is fair.
Against Blackpool he played players that hadn't been given much game time to see what they were all about (not much as it turns out!). They still should have been able to beat a league 1 side though but poor marking and a lack of players doing their jobs properly cost us the goals not the tactics.
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The biggest indictment is that Allardyce has come in and has taken a weak side and somehow made us worse. If you thought Bilic needed to be sacked then you should be calling for Allardyce to be sacked as well.
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(Note, when I say 'better', I don't mean 'good enough', I just mean 'better').
We play better with the ball on the floor and passing it through midfield. Getting Pierera and Diangana on the ball in attacking areas is much more productive than them sitting 40 yards from our own goal. In Robinson and Grant we have players who prefer the ball in front of them to run onto. The defence is better when the ball isn't coming back at them constantly.
Watch all the games on TV and show me which teams set up as deep and defensively minded as we do. Spurs are 'defensive' but they still average 40% possession and don't sit as deep as we do. We're getting around 30% possession in games - I can't believe that anyone thinks that's the right thing to do with a squad that performs better with the ball than without.
I've said it a million times - the way Sam sets us up to play is the absolute worst tactic you could use for this squad of players - and the results agree with me. This is why I believe pretty much any manager who plays a more progressive style of football than Sam would get more out of this squad than Sam is.
And yes, I agree, that Sam could improve things (and I pray he does against the Dingles), but his improvement will come with changes to the squad that sacrifices the quality of the football and seeing as we're going down anyway it seems completely pointless.
Last year we certainly did play better when the ball was on the floor, I will agree with you there. Pereira and Diangana played the ball brilliantly at times last year you can see that they were on the same page and could read each others game. Unfortunately Grady has not turned up this year and Pereira is looking bang average at the moment. Our midfield is being torn to shreds for fun.
You may think that I am being negative for the sake of it - I'm not. When I first considered your point of playing to their strength, my only thought was Johnstone who has been very good this year, after him I was stuck. However, I believe that we do have some good players and I firmly believe that all we need are two or three 'key' players to make the whole thing work. We need a 'Roy Keane' to be honest.
We cannot play through the middle as we are being out played on a regular basis. Pointless playing long ball as we don't have the pace to compete [although I am mindful of the recent Sawyers 40 yard pass that Grant got onto and passed to the goalkeeper]. Our 'strength' at the moment appears to be defending in numbers and the occasional contribution from Ajayi on set pieces. After that then I am stuck, but with a few new players with different skillsets.....
That's why I am pleased we have Snodgrass. Forget his age and resale value in 2 years, what can he do this weekend? Hopefully he will add some grit and determination in our midfield and shout at a few of them.....
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The biggest indictment is that Allardyce has come in and has taken a weak side and somehow made us worse. If you thought Bilic needed to be sacked then you should be calling for Allardyce to be sacked as well.
before he has had a chance to field his own team, which will include his own players?
Do you think that the team we have at present is good enough to survive?
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The biggest indictment is that Allardyce has come in and has taken a weak side and somehow made us worse. If you thought Bilic needed to be sacked then you should be calling for Allardyce to be sacked as well.
Such an irrational statement that is!
Bilic had 18 months......3-4 of those were a purple patch.
Lets give Allardyce the same time and then we can make comparisons
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Bilic had 18 months and never addressed the weak spine of the team, I liked him, even if I couldn't understand a word he was saying half the time, but, Big Sam has a plan and the signings look like the spine of the team is finally being addressed.
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Bilic had 18 months and never addressed the weak spine of the team, I liked him, even if I couldn't understand a word he was saying half the time, but, Big Sam has a plan and the signings look like the spine of the team is finally being addressed.
If a weakness appears obvious to the majority of fans you can be damn sure it needs addressing. It was obvious we were short of a quality CD (Ivanovic was a terrible signing), DCM (we've not had a genuine DM since Jacob?) And a genuine CF (we all had hopes for Grant but Hudds fans told us en mass he was a goalscorer but no CF). We all knew we were also lacking at FB and a box to box, with only Gallagher arriving.
That collectively Slav, Dowling and Lai allowed us to start the season with such obvious weaknesses seemed an error at the time but in hindsight seems just catastrophic if the owner genuinely wanted or expected us to stay up.
My only hope is that the players we do bring in do strengthen those positions and that they are still around in the Champ once Allardyce has gone.
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Such an irrational statement that is!
Bilic had 18 months......3-4 of those were a purple patch.
Lets give Allardyce the same time and then we can make comparisons
From the bottom of my heart, I hope not. That's a terrible idea.
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Such an irrational statement that is!
Bilic had 18 months......3-4 of those were a purple patch.
Lets give Allardyce the same time and then we can make comparisons
Did you think that post through?
Allardyce will be gone in the event of relegation, which right now is about 90% certain.
I'd be willing to be slightly more patient if I could see what he's trying to do.. Currently there has been nothing at all. Apart from reducing possession levels by around 15%.
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Bilic had 18 months and never addressed the weak spine of the team, I liked him, even if I couldn't understand a word he was saying half the time, but, Big Sam has a plan and the signings look like the spine of the team is finally being addressed.
The signings? A third choice goalie and an aging winger? Hardly addressing the spine of the team.
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From the bottom of my heart, I hope not. That's a terrible idea.
He will get until the end of the season Timdon, if/when we do go down I cannot see for one second SA hanging around. Likewise I cannot see the club giving him the spanish if we continue with our present form. This is the board rolling the dice and hoping for a double six.......I don't think they will have the appetite or cash for another roll.
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Bilic had 18 months and never addressed the weak spine of the team, I liked him, even if I couldn't understand a word he was saying half the time, but, Big Sam has a plan and the signings look like the spine of the team is finally being addressed.
Bilic had 1 season and delivered automatic promotion. That's called being successful. Some fans like to moan that the team didn't get 90 of 100 points. That is their right, however unreasonable.
Relegation this season was all but sealed when the board set the transfer budget. A realistic expectation this season was 20th. At no stage did Bilic underperform, if anything the opposite is true. As we have witnessed with the disastrous form since the board decided to replace him.
Will Allardyce hang out until May to get relegation on his CV? I hope so as I detest the lack of patience in football but either way it doesn't matter, we are doomed this season and have harmed our club for next season and years ahead by swapping chairs on the titanic. We are just another Watford.
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Did you think that post through?
Allardyce will be gone in the event of relegation, which right now is about 90% certain.
I'd be willing to be slightly more patient if I could see what he's trying to do.. Currently there has been nothing at all. Apart from reducing possession levels by around 15%.
Absolutely..
comparing 18 months of Bilic's reign with 4/5 games of Allardyces is extremely irrational...
I never said we will get 18 months out of Allardyce but that surely comparisons can be made when theyve had the same amount of time
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The signings? A third choice goalie and an aging winger? Hardly addressing the spine of the team.
1. Getting rid of Austin...trying to sign a replacment
2. Trying to get Choudhry in
3. the obvious llinks to a CB
Yes, we are addressing the spine of the team
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Bilic had 1 season and delivered automatic promotion. That's called being successful. Some fans like to moan that the team didn't get 90 of 100 points. That is their right, however unreasonable.
Relegation this season was all but sealed when the board set the transfer budget. A realistic expectation this season was 20th. At no stage did Bilic underperform, if anything the opposite is true. As we have witnessed with the disastrous form since the board decided to replace him.
Will Allardyce hang out until May to get relegation on his CV? I hope so as I detest the lack of patience in football but either way it doesn't matter, we are doomed this season and have harmed our club for next season and years ahead by swapping chairs on the titanic. We are just another Watford.
I dont think anyone has said Bilic wasnt successful for getting automatic promotion. Quite the opposite infact
But the problems that existed last season still exist this season and he had 3 transfer windows to address it. He didnt.
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He will get until the end of the season Timdon, if/when we do go down I cannot see for one second SA hanging around. Likewise I cannot see the club giving him the spanish if we continue with our present form. This is the board rolling the dice and hoping for a double six.......I don't think they will have the appetite or cash for another roll.
Why should Allardyce last the season if we carry on as we have? We should be assertive and sack him in March or April. I want players incoming then I can see this man is actually having a go. It is total negligence to continue with players that are lost, broken mentally or simply don't want to play under him.
Transfer fees are irrelevant right now, we need new players starting with a clean slate. People keep saying Allardyce needs his own players, well we've had 13 days soticked off already.
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1. Getting rid of Austin...trying to sign a replacment
2. Trying to get Choudhry in
3. the obvious llinks to a CB
Yes, we are addressing the spine of the team
The poster I quoted talked about signings. You are talking about "trying" and "links". Two very different things.
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Why should Allardyce last the season if we carry on as we have? We should be assertive and sack him in March or April. I want players incoming then I can see this man is actually having a go. It is total negligence to continue with players that are lost, broken mentally or simply don't want to play under him.
Transfer fees are irrelevant right now, we need new players starting with a clean slate. People keep saying Allardyce needs his own players, well we've had 13 days soticked off already.
OK then, riddle me this...
Where is the money going to come from to sack Allardyce and install a new huckleberry?
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Do you think the performances have improved at all? It's fine listing losses, but at least we were in those games compared to Villa, Arsenal and Leeds. And let's face it, the result flattered us against Liverpool - that could easily have turned into another Leeds game.
I'm with you about the signings - cheap lower league signings aren't going to get us anywhere, and Brexit has thrown a spanner in European signings. It doesn't leave us with many options. Dowling should have realised this before he appointed a manager who would require massive changes to the squad.
I don’t think the performances have improved and I’ve been disappointed but like others SA has had a grace period in my mind and I do hope to see an improvement against Wolves and West Ham but I would also hope to see him further supported in the market, not leaving everything until after we’ve played all of January’s games.
I expected more v Leeds and Arsenal. The Villa game I blame on Livermore and if GREGMT wants to talk about VAR cheating Bilic well let’s be fair and say it should have given Villa a red in that game.
The Liverpool game was the bar and I expect to see closer than that in the next 2 games and I will struggle to continue with the benefit of the doubt if we see much of the same as we will be cut off soon.
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I dont think anyone has said Bilic wasnt successful for getting automatic promotion. Quite the opposite infact
But the problems that existed last season still exist this season and he had 3 transfer windows to address it. He didnt.
How much of that was down to Bilic though? We had no more money left to bring anyone else in. Didn't he question the amount spent on Diangana for example?
The same will happen to Allardyce. He'll have plenty of targets but I'm not convinced the club will be able to bring them in.
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The poster I quoted talked about signings. You are talking about "trying" and "links". Two very different things.
And I think we both know he was talking about the potential signings..which are there to address the spine of the team
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How much of that was down to Bilic though? We had no more money left to bring anyone else in. Didn't he question the amount spent on Diangana for example?
The same will happen to Allardyce. He'll have plenty of targets but I'm not convinced the club will be able to bring them in.
That was 1 window.
We lacked a decent striker and a decent CDM for several windows.
Resigning Krov for morale but failing to address a weak midfield is very much Bilic’s fault.
I do agree that the people above Allardyce may make it very hard for him to bring in who he wants
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And I think we both know he was talking about the potential signings..which are there to address the spine of the team
Do we? That's not what he said, and I imagine he is perfectly capable of replying himself if he thinks I'm being unfair or inaccurate.
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Such an irrational statement that is!
Bilic had 18 months......3-4 of those were a purple patch.
Lets give Allardyce the same time and then we can make comparisons
err, lets not !
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Judging Allardyce quite this early is silly in my opinion but I’ll accept he has to be judged earlier than most because of the firefighting role he has been employed for.
I think we need to see a big improvement on Saturday, even without new personnel we have to compete better than we have done.
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I don’t think the performances have improved and I’ve been disappointed but like others SA has had a grace period in my mind and I do hope to see an improvement against Wolves and West Ham but I would also hope to see him further supported in the market, not leaving everything until after we’ve played all of January’s games.
I expected more v Leeds and Arsenal. The Villa game I blame on Livermore and if GREGMT wants to talk about VAR cheating Bilic well let’s be fair and say it should have given Villa a red in that game.
The Liverpool game was the bar and I expect to see closer than that in the next 2 games and I will struggle to continue with the benefit of the doubt if we see much of the same as we will be cut off soon.
Yes absolutely robbed 100% with decisions v AV. The sad thing is we were behind in the 3rd min and they totally bossed the game. Livermores red and Grealish penalty was cheating. We would have still lost though because we were c--p.
Contrast that with Gibbs red at Everton, Pereiras red v CP, both penalties at MU, wrongly awarded goal v Chelsea. That's an accumulation of league points gone.
You're more optimistic than me about BCD, we've just conceded 2 at Blackpool. We are miles off.
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Yes absolutely robbed 100% with decisions v AV. The sad thing is we were behind in the 3rd min and they totally bossed the game. Livermores red and Grealish penalty was cheating. We would have still lost though because we were c--p.
Contrast that with Gibbs red at Everton, Pereiras red v CP, both penalties at MU, wrongly awarded goal v Chelsea. That's an accumulation of league points gone.
You're more optimistic than me about BCD, we've just conceded 2 at Blackpool. We are miles off.
Oh I’m not being optimistic, I’m stating what my expectations are of a manager that’s had a month with the squad and a week to prepare and has one of his own signings in. I’ve given him a chance and he still has more of January for me but I do expect an improvement now.
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1. Getting rid of Austin...trying to sign a replacment
2. Trying to get Choudhry in
3. the obvious llinks to a CB
Trying. Yes, he is that.
Getting rid of Austin before signing a replacement is dumb. We might still be in the Cup if Austin hadn't been off to QPR. It would have been good for everyone to win a game, get some confidence back.
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Why should Allardyce last the season if we carry on as we have? We should be assertive and sack him in March or April.
We should never have hired him in the first place. If Bilic needed to go then okay, but you don't replace him with someone like Allardyce whose way of playing is so different when it's blatantly obvious that the players aren't suited to that. That's not Allardyce's fault of course, you can blame the people who hired him.
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Trying. Yes, he is that.
Getting rid of Austin before signing a replacement is dumb. We might still be in the Cup if Austin hadn't been off to QPR. It would have been good for everyone to win a game, get some confidence back.
Even I'm not having that, as a 100% paid up member of the Anti-Allardyce camp, I cannot argue with getting the rotund £60k semi-mobile unfit "striker" off the books was absolutely the right thing to do.
Against Blackpool we could have put a kid up front, which would have made far more sense than no striker but thats another topic
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Oh I’m not being optimistic, I’m stating what my expectations are of a manager that’s had a month with the squad and a week to prepare and has one of his own signings in. I’ve given him a chance and he still has more of January for me but I do expect an improvement now.
Oh how convenient to say all the previous matches don't count. So who carries the can for Leeds 0-5, Arsenal 0-4 and Blackpool 2-2? Why are we now counting all the upcoming matches but not before?
Allardyce has had a lifetime in football. You'd have thought he'd have a wealth of ideas to get us going in the right direction.
I glossed over AV in game 1 (VAR impacted), fantastic v Liverpool in game 2. And post Anfield I just thought he might do something. The performances v Leeds, Arsenal, Blackpool were a disgrace, nothing less.
On what basis do we expect performances to improve with just Snodgrass and Grosicki? I'd be amazed if we go under the x3 GA average in the next 3 matches.
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Putting words in my proverbial mouth there chap. Not once have I said previous matches don’t count.
I also think that you’re missing my point completely. I’m saying what my expectations are of SA or any manager, as in what I’d hope to see. I’m not by any means saying that will happen.
And what I’m also saying is for me, I wanted to give him time to settle in and the team to transition. And that time spell is getting close to being over and this is when I expect to see progress. Maybe I should use the phrase “hope for†instead.
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We hadn't got out of our own half against Villa when the sending off happened. That would have been another poor performance regardless.
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Putting words in my proverbial mouth there chap. Not once have I said previous matches don’t count.
I also think that you’re missing my point completely. I’m saying what my expectations are of SA or any manager, as in what I’d hope to see. I’m not by any means saying that will happen.
And what I’m also saying is for me, I wanted to give him time to settle in and the team to transition. And that time spell is getting close to being over and this is when I expect to see progress. Maybe I should use the phrase “hope for†instead.
What transition spell? The previous games weren't friendlies! The AV game was something like 19th Dec. From then on it goes against Allardyce's record.
So if we'd have won all 5 games so far instead of 2 draws and 3 thrashings that wouldn't count either as it was the transition phase?
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What transition spell? The previous games weren't friendlies! The AV game was something like 19th Dec. From then on it goes against Allardyce's record.
So if we'd have won all 5 games so far instead of 2 draws and 3 thrashings that wouldn't count either as it was the transition phase?
If that happened we wouldn't be here having this debate. I think I'm just going to draw a line under this now. Agree to disagree.
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The fear is being 7 points from safety means scraping the odd backs to the wall draw isn't going to be enough. We need to be winning some games and to win you need to score goals.
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Even I'm not having that, as a 100% paid up member of the Anti-Allardyce camp, I cannot argue with getting the rotund £60k semi-mobile unfit "striker" off the books was absolutely the right thing to do.
It didn't have to be immediately though. Could have kept him for another match. The only risk is that he would have got injured, but the chances of that happening in any one match aren't that high.
Against Blackpool we could have put a kid up front, which would have made far more sense than no striker but thats another topic
Could have, should have. Same topic as far as I'm concerned. Whether SA was out to make a point or what, I don't know, but it was a crazy decision.
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Quiet thread as expected.
Full week on the training ground. Much better organised.
Now 4 points from 5 games, so let's put the **** Bilić ppg to bed.
Snodgrass a shrewd piece of business with more to follow.
Big Sam's Barmy Army!
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Quiet thread as expected.
Full week on the training ground. Much better organised.
Now 4 points from 5 games, so let's put the **** Bilić ppg to bed.
Snodgrass a shrewd piece of business with more to follow.
Big Sam's Barmy Army!
Well said Tom. The longer Sam has with this team the better organised we will be. A few more signings will help.
Trust in Big Sam.
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Well done Big Sam! The players showed an interest and played with heart.
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Credit to him that we went for the win today and it wasn't 9-10 men behind the ball. Otherwise we would never have scored 3 times. We need to attack and defend. Players need to get up and down the pitch, as we showed today.
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Well said Tom. The longer Sam has with this team the better organised we will be. A few more signings will help.
Trust in Big Sam.
We desperately need to strengthen the squad, which I think Allardyce appreciates.
Massive result today.
Let's pray we can take some confidence into the game at West Ham on Tuesday.
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Credit where credit is due I think.
That performance will fill them with confidence, and hopefully Sam can get a couple more it to go with the excellent Snodgrass today.
Not bad for a 33 year old ;D
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I just couldn't see it coming before the game without a bigger change in personnel and despite the obvious improvement in organisation and work rate first half I just couldn't see the second half coming after the previous collapses. it feels so good to be wrong!!
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Well done Sam got the defence getting in challenges second half. Still have issues which hopefully new players can fix.
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Looked a lot more balanced today, tried to play football as well in there third and most of all actually had a bit of fight in them! Hopefully them coming from behind to win shows the players that it is possible and they stop dropping their heads after we go a goal down. Cut out the silly mistakes and play like this and no complaints from me about Big Sam's style.
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I just couldn't see it coming before the game without a bigger change in personnel and despite the obvious improvement in organisation and work rate first half I just couldn't see the second half coming after the previous collapses. it feels so good to be wrong!!
We got the breaks today (at last).
I also think that having Phillips and Diaganna out and Grosicki in helped.
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Shows that he finally had some time on the training ground with them this week instead of game after game as it has been since his arrival.
I said at the time we pulled the trigger on Bilic and appointed Sam that I had more faith that he would keep us up which is why I had no issue with it. Hopefully with a few additions we start to see this from the building blocks put into place today
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Looked a lot more balanced today, tried to play football as well in there third and most of all actually had a bit of fight in them! Hopefully them coming from behind to win shows the players that it is possible and they stop dropping their heads after we go a goal down. Cut out the silly mistakes and play like this and no complaints from me about Big Sam's style.
We've looked decent and got results away from home a fair bit this season. So fingers crossed for the game at West Ham.
The home form is what we desperately need to improve, been battered in the last four home games.
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Full week on the training ground. Much better organised.
Big Sam's Barmy Army!
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Yep. Lots more pointing, shouting and obvious roles and patterns of movement. I just didn't think the players would have the mental strength to come back. Would love to know what was said at HT.
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We got the breaks today (at last).
I also think that having Phillips and Diaganna out and Grosicki in helped.
What breaks did we get? If anything the bounce of the ball went against us for both goals conceded.
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He made it just within your 6 game period Jacko! :D
A massive result in the nick of time. Thought we finally had some luck and the two centre halves were outstanding.
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What breaks did we get? If anything the bounce of the ball went against us for both goals conceded.
Earlier in the season Var would have ruled out the first pen and we’d have lost a pen with Gibbs handball.
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Earlier in the season Var would have ruled out the first pen and we’d have lost a pen with Gibbs handball.
What? Both stonewall penalties, never going to be overturned. Gibbs hands not in an unnatural position and would have been pulled for a foul on the keeper anyway.
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What breaks did we get? If anything the bounce of the ball went against us for both goals conceded.
Wolves had 20 shots to our 11 and the corner count was 11-0 to them. We had two penalties awarded; the first was arguable if it was inside the box or not and the second could have gone either way - although as an Albion fan I will defend both decisions. We scrapped through; with real resilience and just about fell over the right side of the line.
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What? Both stonewall penalties, never going to be overturned. Gibbs hands not in an unnatural position and would have been pulled for a foul on the keeper anyway.
You are not getting my point. We had so much bad luck at the start of the season that var would have gone against us. Now it feels like our luck has changed.
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You are not getting my point. We had so much bad luck at the start of the season that var would have gone against us. Now it feels like our luck has changed.
We certainly would not have got those decisions from Michael Oliver at Old Trafford.
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Most of wolves shots first half especially were from long range.
They had a few decent chances, the Cutrone one at the end was big, but so did we, Robinson first and second half and Gibbs and Sawyers hitting wide in good positions.
Wolves had more possession but clear chances wise, there wasnt much in it.
Similar to second half v Liverpool, i enjoyed the way we played, defend well (except for the individual errors for the goals) and offer a real threat in numbers going forward.
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Wolves had 20 shots to our 11 and the corner count was 11-0 to them. We had two penalties awarded; the first was arguable if it was inside the box or not and the second could have gone either way - although as an Albion fan I will defend both decisions. We scrapped through; with real resilience and just about fell over the right side of the line.
Haha, translated as: we defended well, mostly restricting them to long range potshots. Got the correct decisions we deserved. :-\
Thoroughly deserved the 3 points.
You are not getting my point. We had so much bad luck at the start of the season that var would have gone against us. Now it feels like our luck has changed.
Aside from the Gallagher penalty and the Pereira red card I dont think we've be that hard done to. The complaints about the Chelsea game particularly were a bit nebulous imo and designed to distract from throwing away a 3 goal lead.
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Haha, translated as: we defended well, mostly restricting them to long range potshots. Got the correct decisions we deserved. :-\
Thoroughly deserved the 3 points.
Aside from the Gallagher penalty and the Pereira red card I dont think we've be that hard done to. The complaints about the Chelsea game particularly were a bit nebulous imo and designed to distract from throwing away a 3 goal lead.
Think it was Palace when we should have had two pens.
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Haha, translated as: we defended well, mostly restricting them to long range potshots. Got the correct decisions we deserved.
Crutone also missed an absolute sitter for them late on.
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Crutone also missed an absolute sitter for them late on.
Robinson missed 2 very good chances for us 🤷🏻.
There was nothing fortunate about today.
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Congrats to Allaradyce on today. I'm just over the moon to beat them lot, when I expected an absolute drumming, not just a single goal defeat.
When the dust settles, we have still conceded too many shots on our own goal again. I have been going on for weeks/months that the main problem is Livermore/Sawyers and the penny is now dropping with most of the fanbase.
We don't need a striker and any 2 centre backs from Ajayi/Bartley/O'Shea gives us enough.
I still stand by the point, SA should've signed a CM from League 1 for a nominal fee in the absence of Gallagher. Sawyers shouldn't be playing. Any further injury to Gallagher and we're in trouble.
By all means sign Choudhry (if at all it'll be on 31 Jan). We were exposed for this game.
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I think people know where I stood on Bilic, but on the flip side no matter how incredible the result today, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
Allardyce needed this. It was better, but we still fumbled at the back way too much and conceded two sloppy goals. A little luck and a poor wolves side helped us.
Short term it’s fantastic and allardyce has helped give us a great day. Long term it’s a little ray of light.
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When the dust settles, we have still conceded too many shots on our own goal again. I have been going on for weeks/months that the main problem is Livermore/Sawyers and the penny is now dropping with most of the fanbase.
I think that is right. However the difficulty today was that Traore and Netto had the beating of O'Shea and Gibbs all day long. They were just too quick and skilful for them, so on numerous occasioned wolves got in behind of us and put in dangerous crosses. Hence we lost the corner count 11-0. We did our best to try to double up on their wide players but that did leave us a exposed in the middle. So your right that Livermore and Sawyers didn't at times screen the defence but they were also outnumbered at times as well. We definitely need to strengthen further, at full back, central midfield and we need a powerful goalscorer up top as well. Allardyce knows we need to strengthen, but our meagre budget is holding us back, as it did with Bilic.
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Thought the way we approached the game was light years ahead of how we did against Villa and Leeds - way too defensive. Liverpool I could understand, and Arsenal was just a mess. Today though we didn't sit too deep (until the last 10 mins), and we could turn possession over and had players to attack with.
Not too fussed about Wolves' stats for the game - they won about 4 corners in quick succession at once and with Traore he just runs into dead ends, smashes the ball against defenders legs for a corner or out of play.
Surprised Sawyers stayed on the pitch - that was as bad a game as I've seen him have, defending was non existent. Incidentally, according to the stats at the end, Livermore covered more ground then any of the players out there - probably the covering for Sawyers he has to do.
Sub were right, was concerned the HRK sub would backfire if Robinson's legs were gone but he did really well when moved around. Still nothing from Hal apart from running into the corner once.
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I think that is right. However the difficulty today was that Traore and Netto had the beating of O'Shea and Gibbs all day long. They were just too quick and skilful for them, so on numerous occasioned wolves got in behind of us and put in dangerous crosses. Hence we lost the corner count 11-0. We did our best to try to double up on their wide players but that did leave us a exposed in the middle. So your right that Livermore and Sawyers didn't at times screen the defence but they were also outnumbered at times as well. We definitely need to strengthen further, at full back, central midfield and we need a powerful goalscorer up top as well. Allardyce knows we need to strengthen, but our meagre budget is holding us back, as it did with Bilic.
Great post.
When all is said and done Bilic led us to 7pts from 13 games, which should've been 12 or 13 with VAR factored in.
The budget is a joke, and the usual squabbling over wages means waiting for 31 Jan again. It's almost like the board want us to go down.
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This part is absolute nonsense.
We were definitely screwed over at Old Trafford Jacko. That was criminal.
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This part is absolute nonsense.
No mate, you obviously didn't watch the following games under Bilic's reign:
Everton (A)
Chelsea (H)
Man Utd (A)
Crystal Palace (H)
No one is more happy than me about today, we were awarded 2 penalties, which was just incredible, never ever has that happened to WBA in the Premier League
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No mate, you obviously didn't watch the following games under Bilic's reign:
Everton (A)
Chelsea (H)
Man Utd (A)
Crystal Palace (H)
No one is more happy than me about today, we were awarded 2 penalties, which was just incredible, never ever has that happened to WBA in the Premier League
Everton and Chelsea?
The penalty at OT was a bad decision. As was the red card against Palace. Neither guarantee any more points.
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The penalty at OT was a bad decision. As was the red card against Palace. Neither guarantee any more points.
There are never any guarantees. We didn't get a fair deal with referring decisions and VAR earlier in the season. How many more points, should we have? Entirely debatable. 3-6 I reckon.
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My stance on Allardyce is well documented, as the saying goes
One swallow does not ........ It is a swallow of Linda Lovelace proportions though admittedly.
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There are never any guarantees. We didn't get a fair deal with referring decisions and VAR earlier in the season. How many more points, should we have? Entirely debatable. 3-6 I reckon.
1. At Old Trafford.
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1. At Old Trafford.
You also have to wonder what a victory at Old Trafford would have done for confidence and our season. Just like we hope that today is a huge turning point.
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You also have to wonder what a victory at Old Trafford would have done for confidence and our season. Just like we hope that today is a huge turning point.
1 point is a draw mate. Bilić was out of his depth, nothing to do with VAR.
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Chelsea's last goal was clear handball. Definitely cost us 2 points. Man Utd & Crystal Palace could potentially have been 6 points. We would have gone up 0-1 at OT, with Utd playing poorly, game was totally in balance. CP we were on top at the time of Pereira's absolutely ludicrous red card. Everton, we battered them first half 1-2, not a given that Everton would even win.
I want us to succeed under Allardyce. In contrast, mystifying why you dismiss the VAR claims under Bilic?
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Who gives a **** about what went on previously with VAR.
Can’t we just enjoy what was a fantastic result today!!
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Chelsea's last goal was clear handball. Definitely cost us 2 points. Man Utd & Crystal Palace could potentially have been 6 points. We would have gone up 0-1 at OT, with Utd playing poorly, game was totally in balance. CP we were on top at the time of Pereira's absolutely ludicrous red card. Everton, we battered them first half 1-2, not a given that Everton would even win.
I want us to succeed under Allardyce. In contrast, mystifying why you dismiss the VAR claims under Bilic?
We battered Everton? No point debating any of the rest because that is absolute pie in the sky. We're all entitled to our opinions but come on mate.
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We battered Everton? No point debating any of the rest because that is absolute pie in the sky. We're all entitled to our opinions but come on mate.
Nearly translated to we are all entitled to all opinion but you can't say that.... I don't think it's controversial to note that with a better standard of referring we would be sitting on more points so far. I agree it is fruitless to start nitpicking each and every game and decision; as you will never find any common ground. Botton line is we have a hell of a lot of work to do and Allardyce desperately needs new better players in through the door.
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We battered Everton? No point debating any of the rest because that is absolute pie in the sky. We're all entitled to our opinions but come on mate.
I don't think its right to state due 1 point at MU and that's all I'm going to say on it.
We agree to disagree, and we'll draw a line under it on this historic evening, no desire to fall out with a fellow WBA fan on today of all days!
I toast a beer to you!
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I don't think its right to state due 1 point at MU and that's all I'm going to say on it.
We agree to disagree, and we'll draw a line under it on this historic evening, no desire to fall out with a fellow WBA fan on today of all days!
I toast a beer to you!
Cheers to you too mate, mine will be a coffee sadly ;D
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Cheers to you too mate, mine will be a coffee sadly ;D
Dry January?
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Today was much better and what I expect from an Allardyce side.
More organised, engaging further up the pitch, whilst looking threatening on the break. Really pleasing to see players breaking forward when we have the ball. Gives the likes of Pereira more options to play with rather than a sideways pass.
One swallow doesn’t make a summer, or whatever the phrase is - but today was a massive step in the right direction regardless of it being against them.
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Dry January?
Dry life at present mate. I eat strict Keto, can't afford the carbs. Holiday scheduled for May will be my next beer. Hopefully coincides with Big Sam keeping us up (to stay on topic) ;D
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Dry January?
If I was doing dry January it would have gone right out the window today
I’d say get the champers out but as were so used to beating them I may as well just have a fruit shoot :D
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Dry life at present mate. I eat strict Keto, can't afford the carbs. Holiday scheduled for May will be my next beer. Hopefully coincides with Big Sam keeping us up (to stay on topic) ;D
You’re sober when posting??!! :D
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You’re sober when posting??!! :D
Of course!!!
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“We showed the players the 5-1 win before coming here."
Sam Allardyce reacts to Saturday's 3-2 derby victory at Wolves.
Megsonesque!
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“We showed the players the 5-1 win before coming here."
Sam Allardyce reacts to Saturday's 3-2 derby victory at Wolves.
Megsonesque!
Love it.
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If he showed clips from all the times we’ve beaten these in the last 20 years there would have been no time for any training.. :D
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If he showed clips from all the times we’ve beaten these in the last 20 years there would have been no time for any training.. :D
That made me very ;D ;D
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Warming to Allardyce. That team showed resilience, both mentally and physically, skills enough to create a few chances, and to defend against some strong runners who individually can take very good defenders to the cleaners. At last a couple of correct penalty calls as well, could this game really be the catharsis Hope so but it's the hope that kills yeah. Never mind we stuffed the dingles COYB ;D
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Credit to Allardyce for turning that around after Leeds, Arsenal and Blackpool. Much better shape and organization. Snodgrass made a difference and thought Grosicki gave us something going forward (not sure why he hasn't played more). The system allowed Periera to flourish and he found more space and looked way more hungry yesterday.
We looked better going forward and thought we mixed up playing the channels with some decent stuff on the counter.
Still need to work on the defending and thought Sam summed it up when he said "we can't expect to score 3 every week to get something out of the game".
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What a difference a few days make eh? BS was getting pelters from a few on here mid week but waking up this morning and realising yesterdays result is a great feeling, against those cocky so and so's as well! I think there is 'trouble at t'mill' at wolves but I really don't care less. My wolvo mates have been very quiet.
Anyway, its only one result, but its a start. The team looked a lot more together yesterday, and you could see by Robinsons ever so slightly premature celebration on 94 minutes that it really means something to them. I thought Sam was quietly smug in his post match interview and publicly pointed out that when he has saved previous teams he has had to bring in new players - a continuing message to the board.
Just for a change I can see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. All we can do is get behind BS and the lads. Roll on West Ham.
COYB!!!
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I am a fan of Slaven's and wanted him to succeed at Albion. He did many good things for the team, the club and the fans, for which I am grateful, but he is no longer our Head Coach.
I was open-minded about Big Sam coming in and remain so.
But I have to say, imo, he has an aura, a presence, a calmness and charisma, he is, in short, a leader. I find all those attributes reassuring in our current circumstance and they are just what we need as, together, they instill confidence and belief in players and fans alike. It is, after all, a game where confidence and belief are most vital ingredients.
Let's wait until the end of the season and see how it works out for Big Sam and us, but we clearly, imv, need a Head Coach with Big Sam's qualities whatever division we find ourselves in.
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I am a fan of Slaven's and wanted him to succeed at Albion. He did many good things for the team, the club and the fans, for which I am grateful, but he is no longer our Head Coach.
I was open-minded about Big Sam coming in and remain so.
But I have to say, imo, he has an aura, a presence, a calmness and charisma, he is, in short, a leader. I find all those attributes reassuring in our current circumstance and they are just what we need as, together, they instill confidence and belief in players and fans alike. It is, after all, a game where confidence and belief are most vital ingredients.
Let's wait until the end of the season and see how it works out for Big Sam and us, but we clearly, imv, need a Head Coach with Big Sam's qualities whatever division we find ourselves in.
He’s an excellent, pragmatic coach working with poor material. One swallow doesn’t make a summer, and the team needs serious strengthening front to back.
But he’s by far the best hope the club has - and there’ll be no chance of getting out of this mess by bringing in a load of inexperienced promising youngsters. Allardyce is not so foolish.
You largely need experienced players who still have some fuel in the tank. Snodgrass might just be one of those. But they’re hard to find or someone else would want them.
I also find this Sam hating is utterly puerile and sickening. I respect people’s opinions based on reason, but irrational vitriol against a man who will do his best to somehow rescue nailed on relegation certainties with very little to work with is deeply unfair and destructive for our club. We’ve seen how tribal thinking about individuals affects politics; please leave it out at the Albion.
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If Allardyce stays with us for any length of time, it will be the best thing to happen to this club since Hodgson. I find it baffling how any of our supporters could turn their noses up at a proven manager who gets it done time after time. He needs time to build his own squad and undo the problems caused by Bilic and Dowlings recruitment decisions. He literally is the only shot we had/have at survival. Back him, we stay up, don't back him, we go down. It's that simple. It's about time this guy got the credit he has deserved based on his record over a very long time.
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Who gives a **** about what went on previously with VAR.
Can’t we just enjoy what was a fantastic result today!!
There you go PartisanBaggie, as you suggested earlier, my new Avatar, just for you and Big Sam of course ;D
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If Allardyce stays with us for any length of time, it will be the best thing to happen to this club since Hodgson. I find it baffling how any of our supporters could turn their noses up at a proven manager who gets it done time after time. He needs time to build his own squad and undo the problems caused by Bilic and Dowlings recruitment decisions. He literally is the only shot we had/have at survival. Back him, we stay up, don't back him, we go down. It's that simple. It's about time this guy got the credit he has deserved based on his record over a very long time.
Agree. 100%. I still think we’ll go down because the team is so weak but we have at least a 20% chance rather than zero with such a capable and experienced coach. And if he can pull it off he’d likely then get a team together that would get us back towards the middle of the EPL.
Or we can help to drive him out of the club and end up in the middle of the Championship or worse, and someone of Allardyce’s calibre wouldn’t touch us then. We’ve been there and it’s hellishly hard to get back once you reach that point.
Nottingham Forest anyone? Sunderland? Ipswich? Sheff Weds?
History teaches lessons. People don’t always seem willing to learn them, even when they’re repeating themselves in front of their very eyes.
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I am a fan of Slaven's and wanted him to succeed at Albion. He did many good things for the team, the club and the fans, for which I am grateful, but he is no longer our Head Coach.
I was open-minded about Big Sam coming in and remain so.
But I have to say, imo, he has an aura, a presence, a calmness and charisma, he is, in short, a leader. I find all those attributes reassuring in our current circumstance and they are just what we need as, together, they instill confidence and belief in players and fans alike. It is, after all, a game where confidence and belief are most vital ingredients.
Let's wait until the end of the season and see how it works out for Big Sam and us, but we clearly, imv, need a Head Coach with Big Sam's qualities whatever division we find ourselves in.
Exactly my thoughts, I really wanted Bilic to succeed but the problem with his philosophy is that ultimately, you can not out football clubs with more resources, it's time the purists on here recognise that.
Big Sam will strengthen the spine of the team as I have been crying out for since last year, he will address the Pulis era midfield neglect which is so overdue.
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If Allardyce stays with us for any length of time, it will be the best thing to happen to this club since Hodgson. I find it baffling how any of our supporters could turn their noses up at a proven manager who gets it done time after time. He needs time to build his own squad and undo the problems caused by Bilic and Dowlings recruitment decisions. He literally is the only shot we had/have at survival. Back him, we stay up, don't back him, we go down. It's that simple. It's about time this guy got the credit he has deserved based on his record over a very long time.
I'm backing Allardyce, over the moon with yesterday and. Ore positive going into Tuesday.
However, I completely reject this notion that Bilic has wasted huge amounts of money. The board hardly gave him any funds back in the Summer to improve the squad.
Maybe if Bilic was still here he wouldn't strengthened the midfield based on the 1st half of the season, we shall never know.
Bilic in some cases has signed good players for transfer fee involved. Furlong 1.1m, Ajayi 1.5m, Pereira 8.5m, Grosicki 0.9m, Robinson for effectively 2.0m.
I guess you are alluding to Diangana for 18.0m. I think he'll still come good, has all the talent.
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If Allardyce stays with us for any length of time, it will be the best thing to happen to this club since Hodgson. I find it baffling how any of our supporters could turn their noses up at a proven manager who gets it done time after time. He needs time to build his own squad and undo the problems caused by Bilic and Dowlings recruitment decisions. He literally is the only shot we had/have at survival. Back him, we stay up, don't back him, we go down. It's that simple. It's about time this guy got the credit he has deserved based on his record over a very long time.
Nicely put Vander 👏🏻
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If Allardyce stays with us for any length of time, it will be the best thing to happen to this club since Hodgson. I find it baffling how any of our supporters could turn their noses up at a proven manager who gets it done time after time. He needs time to build his own squad and undo the problems caused by Bilic and Dowlings recruitment decisions. He literally is the only shot we had/have at survival. Back him, we stay up, don't back him, we go down. It's that simple. It's about time this guy got the credit he has deserved based on his record over a very long time.
I think some currently have concerns about how defensive we would be and some of the appearances under Allardyce have been worse than his predecessor.
However, yesterday showed just how valuable time on the training pitch is. More organised defensively and a more promising showing offensively.
We’re not a brilliant side but if we can replicate performances like yesterday then he will not have many grumbling against him.
Work in progress but a massive step in the right direction.
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I'm backing Allardyce, over the moon with yesterday and. Ore positive going into Tuesday.
However, I completely reject this notion that Bilic has wasted huge amounts of money. The board hardly gave him any funds back in the Summer to improve the squad.
Maybe if Bilic was still here he wouldn't strengthened the midfield based on the 1st half of the season, we shall never know.
Bilic in some cases has signed good players for transfer fee involved. Furlong 1.1m, Ajayi 1.5m, Pereira 8.5m, Grosicki 0.9m, Robinson for effectively 2.0m.
I guess you are alluding to Diangana for 18.0m. I think he'll still come good, has all the talent.
Furlong , Semi and Grosicki Dowling signings mate , Bilic snubbing of Grosicki was pretty poor IMO.
Overall 99% agree Bilic needed more funds but a fair few of us didn't think he was using what he had well enough.
The other thing for me was 3 signings he dug his heels in for have pretty much flopped so far .
All that said this is the Allardyce thread and the club need to do anything they can within reason to get him players he needs.
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I am flabbergasted that our fans "forget" Allardyces history,
This man was awarded the most prestigious job in English football, Manager of the National team for which he was rewarded very well, remember where this money comes from (each and every one of US).
This was not enough for this man within 60 odd days he was caught offering advice on how to "get around" rules on player transfers. He was also alleged to have used his role to negotiate a deal worth £400,000 to represent a Far East firm in such negotiations and public speaking.
The man is without scruples and morals, he should never ever work in football again and having him as WBAFC manager is simply not acceptable to me, if he was the most successful football manager ever my view would not change.
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I am flabbergasted that our fans "forget" Allardyces history,
This man was awarded the most prestigious job in English football, Manager of the National team for which he was rewarded very well, remember where this money comes from (each and every one of US).
This was not enough for this man within 60 odd days he was caught offering advice on how to "get around" rules on player transfers. He was also alleged to have used his role to negotiate a deal worth £400,000 to represent a Far East firm in such negotiations and public speaking.
The man is without scruples and morals, he should never ever work in football again and having him as WBAFC manager is simply not acceptable to me, if he was the most successful football manager ever my view would not change.
And his son was on BBC Panorama some years ago as an alleged ‘dodgy’ agent.
I’m not bothered about his background in the slightest. Let those without sin cast the first stone.
I take it you didn’t celebrate yesterday’s result then by Big Sams Albion?
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And his son was on BBC Panorama some years ago as an alleged ‘dodgy’ agent.
I’m not bothered about his background in the slightest. Let those without sin cast the first stone.
I take it you didn’t celebrate yesterday’s result then by Big Sams Albion?
Of course I celebrate the win, I'm an Albion fan, was before Allardyce and will be after. Proud of what the Albion stand for historically, this appointment tarnishes that great history.
Have I got skeletons yes, but, this bloke was so arrogant as to think he could get away with stuff because of his position, that I would not do.
I wouldn't thumb my nose to every football fan in the country either.
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I am flabbergasted that our fans "forget" Allardyces history,
This man was awarded the most prestigious job in English football, Manager of the National team for which he was rewarded very well, remember where this money comes from (each and every one of US).
This was not enough for this man within 60 odd days he was caught offering advice on how to "get around" rules on player transfers. He was also alleged to have used his role to negotiate a deal worth £400,000 to represent a Far East firm in such negotiations and public speaking.
The man is without scruples and morals, he should never ever work in football again and having him as WBAFC manager is simply not acceptable to me, if he was the most successful football manager ever my view would not change.
I honestly could care less, about the England team or the Allardyce tapes. Nothing to do with forgetting.
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I honestly could care less, about the England team or the Allardyce tapes. Nothing to do with forgetting.
Same here.
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I honestly could care less, about the England team or the Allardyce tapes. Nothing to do with forgetting.
You don't care, ok
I do, I think of the Albion as the club that was first to play in china, played the red army home and away, employed the iconic 3 degrees, Vic Buckingham the developer of total football (before Ajax) and has a great history and this man tarnishes that for me. My opinion and thats the end of it really.
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You don't care, ok
I do, I think of the Albion as the club that was first to play in china, played the red army home and away, employed the iconic 3 degrees, Vic Buckingham the developer of total football (before Ajax) and has a great history and this man tarnishes that for me. My opinion and thats the end of it really.
Saunders was a bigger blot on the club
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I am flabbergasted that our fans "forget" Allardyces history,
This man was awarded the most prestigious job in English football, Manager of the National team for which he was rewarded very well, remember where this money comes from (each and every one of US).
This was not enough for this man within 60 odd days he was caught offering advice on how to "get around" rules on player transfers. He was also alleged to have used his role to negotiate a deal worth £400,000 to represent a Far East firm in such negotiations and public speaking.
The man is without scruples and morals, he should never ever work in football again and having him as WBAFC manager is simply not acceptable to me, if he was the most successful football manager ever my view would not change.
I can fully appreciate your misgivings about Big Sam and realise it would be futile to offer any sort of argument to persuade you otherwise.
I do hope though, that given the obvious strength of your feelings, you can find away to accommodate and reconcile his being our Head Coach and enjoy any success he brings us during his tenure.
But I do admire your fortitude and stance in your beliefs.
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Saunders was a bigger blot on the club
how so, abysmal manager = yes, Ex-vile = yes, what else?
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Never liked the brown envelope culture, and didn't particularly want him, but I knew he would be our manager after Slav, as the choices were limited and after Mel, we don't take chances on foreign coaches.
You can say what you want about BS, but he has an incredible eye for reasonably priced player (or free one in our case). He brought in unknowns like Kone and Milhajovic (as well as others) at Sunderland and Palace respectively.
I hope he can find similar gems again. That is the only way we will have a fighting chance to stay up.
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He's never been convicted of anything.
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I am one hundred percent with Albionic on this. I can't bring myself not to support the Albion but Allardyce's presence is shall we say testing my loyalty to near breaking point. I will never warm to him that is not possible. I just want to move on from this as quick as is possible.
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I am flabbergasted that our fans "forget" Allardyces history,
This man was awarded the most prestigious job in English football, Manager of the National team for which he was rewarded very well, remember where this money comes from (each and every one of US).
This was not enough for this man within 60 odd days he was caught offering advice on how to "get around" rules on player transfers. He was also alleged to have used his role to negotiate a deal worth £400,000 to represent a Far East firm in such negotiations and public speaking.
The man is without scruples and morals, he should never ever work in football again and having him as WBAFC manager is simply not acceptable to me, if he was the most successful football manager ever my view would not change.
I accept and respect your view Albionic, mine was similar to yours. As I understand it Sam merely confirmed that there were ways around things and that offside payments [or bungs] do occur. It is not exactly something that we do not already suspect or know is it? Football is a multi billion pound global industry so we would all be very naive to think that it was squeaky clean. All you have to do is look at the murky world of the football agent to realise that what Sam confirmed is probably rife as clubs 'jockey position' to get the best players. It is important to note that whilst Sam acknowledged that this happened, no money changed hands and he was not charged with any offence.
Fast forward to our old friend Pulis, who when he was the boss of Crystal Palace, obtained his £2m bonus ahead of when it was due after pledging his commitment to the club. He said he wanted the money urgently for a land property deal, and Steve Parish duly obliged. After he received the payment he promptly walked out of the club a couple of days before the season was due to start, leaving Palace well and truly in the brown stuff. Legal proceedings commenced and eventually went against Pulis, who had to repay £3.7m [presumably to cover Court costs and lost interest]. The interesting point here is that the Court panel found that there was absolutely no evidence of any property deal and that Pulis had purposely misled Steve Parish in order to obtain the payment. The full judgement can be found here:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2016/2999.html
Ultimately Sam paid the price for his comments by losing his dream job. In his 2016 biography he categorically denied ever taking a bung from anyone. Evidence contradicting this appears to come from the 'shady agents' world, so can be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.
So whilst I understand your point of view, I wonder if you had the same views with Pulis, who purposely misled a club owner for personal financial gain, and is arguably a bigger culprit that Sam.
I say all of the above with respect to your view; I shared the same view until recently, but I think it is time to move on and give him a chance.
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I am one hundred percent with Albionic on this. I can't bring myself not to support the Albion but Allardyce's presence is shall we say testing my loyalty to near breaking point. I will never warm to him that is not possible. I just want to move on from this as quick as is possible.
New broom and all that, I was against his appointment but let's see what he can do.
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I honestly could care less, about the England team or the Allardyce tapes. Nothing to do with forgetting.
You couldn't care less you mean? If you could care less it means you care, even if only a little bit.
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Without getting into the England stuff I don't much like Allardyce as a person , I never have taken to his manner and almost arrogance . That said his record for clubs like us in desperate trouble is second to none and he does have a eye for a bargain in all markets . In a pandemic thats crippling the UK , a time that is effecting people badly mood wise I'm happy enough to have him and the bit of light we got from turning Wolves over . He is really our best shot at getting out of this even after those early smackings .
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You couldn't care less you mean? If you could care less it means you care, even if only a little bit.
No the two phrases are synonymous. Look it up.
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You couldn't care less you mean? If you could care less it means you care, even if only a little bit.
It means he could care less if he could be bothered to make the effort required to do so. That in itself does not mean that he cares in the first instance.
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Cant believe how this topic has gone.
Unless he's Jack The Ripper I couldn't care two hoots about anything else other than what Allardyce does with us. We need results not the nicest guy in the world to win a pointless popularity contest and give some of our fans a nice, warm glow.
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I am clearly an outlier in this debate, which i am comfortable with, if a little sad about it.
Move on,
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I liked Slaven Bilic and what he was trying to build. I have never been an Allardyce fan, and in all honesty, even though he's with us now I still do not like him. However I/we do not have to like him.
He is, by reputation and record, and by accounts of players he managed a very good progressive and pragmatic manager. My belief was that he was a Pulis type dinosaur, but this does not seem to be the fact. I admit that I quite liked what I saw in dingle land on Saturday, in the way the team was set up not to just sit back and hope but also to get forward or press higher when possible. I'm hoping my view is not coloured by the euphoria of once again beating the team I have always, since the mid to late 1950's seen as 'the enemy' ;D
Regarding his tarnished and dishonest image, I am of the, as not yet fully researched, and therefore unproven opinion, that Sam is similar to any of the top club operators who all urinate in the same container. Most probably they do not all get as close to the splash as Sam does because they have others shield them, but cash will change hands and secret deals will get done.
In the world of big business Premier league operations, there is a very smokey line between dishonesty, and just taking an advantage and putting one over on your competitors. This being so I think I would rather have an Allardyce type at the moment than a squeaky clean likeable excellent football manager, who gets done-over behind his back.
I have reluctantly decided that Sam Allardyce is what we require, and that he is the best option at the moment and for the near future to give us a chance of maintaining our Premier League status. (Assuming that the Premier league really is the best place for a club of our size and fan base.) COYB
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Cant believe how this topic has gone.
Unless he's Jack The Ripper I couldn't care two hoots about anything else other than what Allardyce does with us. We need results not the nicest guy in the world to win a pointless popularity contest and give some of our fans a nice, warm glow.
I had a nice warm glow on Saturday at 14.30 thanks to Sam and the boys, that’ll do for me😁
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I had a nice warm glow on Saturday at 14.30 thanks to Sam and the boys, that’ll do for me😁
I'm sure giving every Albion fan a bowl of Ready Brek would have been cheaper. (But yeah, me too. I'm willing to give SA the benefit of the doubt for now.)
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Allardyce has never lost against wo1ve5 in 11 games against them as a manager, that is some stat.
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Can we play them every week? ;D
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Allardyce has never lost against wo1ve5 in 11 games against them as a manager, that is some stat.
Lets hope that is not the only stat Sam can maintain....
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No the two phrases are synonymous. Look it up.
Correct.
Look I do agree totally, he didn't cover himself in glory as the England manager but there is no point in raking over the past. And yes, as someone rightly said, we have had some amazing, groundbreaking moments in the past but right now we can't afford to be nostalgic. As a club, as a team, as supporters, we need to get behind the boss, give him our full support and hope he can work a small miracle.
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I accept and respect your view Albionic, mine was similar to yours. As I understand it Sam merely confirmed that there were ways around things and that offside payments [or bungs] do occur. It is not exactly something that we do not already suspect or know is it? Football is a multi billion pound global industry so we would all be very naive to think that it was squeaky clean. All you have to do is look at the murky world of the football agent to realise that what Sam confirmed is probably rife as clubs 'jockey position' to get the best players. It is important to note that whilst Sam acknowledged that this happened, no money changed hands and he was not charged with any offence.
Fast forward to our old friend Pulis, who when he was the boss of Crystal Palace, obtained his £2m bonus ahead of when it was due after pledging his commitment to the club. He said he wanted the money urgently for a land property deal, and Steve Parish duly obliged. After he received the payment he promptly walked out of the club a couple of days before the season was due to start, leaving Palace well and truly in the brown stuff. Legal proceedings commenced and eventually went against Pulis, who had to repay £3.7m [presumably to cover Court costs and lost interest]. The interesting point here is that the Court panel found that there was absolutely no evidence of any property deal and that Pulis had purposely misled Steve Parish in order to obtain the payment. The full judgement can be found here:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2016/2999.html
Ultimately Sam paid the price for his comments by losing his dream job. In his 2016 biography he categorically denied ever taking a bung from anyone. Evidence contradicting this appears to come from the 'shady agents' world, so can be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.
So whilst I understand your point of view, I wonder if you had the same views with Pulis, who purposely misled a club owner for personal financial gain, and is arguably a bigger culprit that Sam.
I say all of the above with respect to your view; I shared the same view until recently, but I think it is time to move on and give him a chance.
Sorry i missed this post, which is very fair and reasonable, for the record I was vehemently against Pulis appointment and detest the man
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Correct.
Look I do agree totally, he didn't cover himself in glory as the England manager but there is no point in raking over the past. And yes, as someone rightly said, we have had some amazing, groundbreaking moments in the past but right now we can't afford to be nostalgic. As a club, as a team, as supporters, we need to get behind the boss, give him our full support and hope he can work a small miracle.
As a club there's confusion over when we were formed. As a team the players can't seem to agree on who should be picking whom up from midfield or at set pieces/the importance of clearing our lines of defence etc. As supporters we're a fractious lot and we can't even agree which opposition club to hate more. Fat chance of getting everyone behind Big Sam regardless of his girth or otherwise ;D .
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Correct.
Look I do agree totally, he didn't cover himself in glory as the England manager but there is no point in raking over the past. And yes, as someone rightly said, we have had some amazing, groundbreaking moments in the past but right now we can't afford to be nostalgic. As a club, as a team, as supporters, we need to get behind the boss, give him our full support and hope he can work a small miracle.
a) Me rooting for something to happen has zero impact on the probability of it happening
b) I have less than zero emotional commitment to the club being one of the also rans in the Premier League
c) I have multiple layers of dislike for Allardyce.
To a degree I fell into the necessary evil trap thinking with Pulis (who I disliked less but I lost what little respect I had for him as a person with the Palace shenanigans) and I won't be fooled again.
I have unconditional love for the club that does not stretch to everyone the club employs and just being employed by the club does give anyone salvation in my eyes.
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a) Me rooting for something to happen has zero impact on the probability of it happening
b) I have less than zero emotional commitment to the club being one of the also rans in the Premier League
c) I have multiple layers of dislike for Allardyce.
To a degree I fell into the necessary evil trap thinking with Pulis (who I disliked less but I lost what little respect I had for him as a person with the Palace shenanigans) and I won't be fooled again.
I have unconditional love for the club that does not stretch to everyone the club employs and just being employed by the club does give anyone salvation in my eyes.
I respect you hugely, very intelligent, highly knowledgeable.
However, the world isnt a perfect place. Justice doesnt always prevail, right doesnt always beat wrong, good doesn't always overcome bad. Not in 2021 at least.
Do you want to take the moral high ground and sit assured that "the right thing" has been done or do you want results at the expense of the utopia you court?
Our club needs the results it needs, simple as that. Never mind all the niceties West Bromwich Albion comes first.
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As a club there's confusion over when we were formed. As a team the players can't seem to agree on who should be picking whom up from midfield or at set pieces/the importance of clearing our lines of defence etc. As supporters we're a fractious lot and we can't even agree which opposition club to hate more. Fat chance of getting everyone behind Big Sam regardless of his girth or otherwise ;D .
centenary year was 1979 that was celebrated that year by club no confusion.
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The only thing Allardyce did that many, many others didn't, is get caught, and he paid the ultimate price.
No moral high ground to take for me, he lost his dream job and has done his time. Hopefully it was a warning to other managers, but I would be absolutely amazed if it didn't still go on. Any manager past or future could have had their fingers in dodgy pies without us knowing. At least with Allardyce it's out in the open.
I don't particularly like the bloke but, if the powers that be deem him fit to manage, then that's that.
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I respect you hugely, very intelligent, highly knowledgeable.
However, the world isnt a perfect place. Justice doesnt always prevail, right doesnt always beat wrong, good doesn't always overcome bad. Not in 2021 at least.
Do you want to take the moral high ground and sit assured that "the right thing" has been done or do you want results at the expense of the utopia you court?
Our club needs the results it needs, simple as that. Never mind all the niceties West Bromwich Albion comes first.
That's a good post. I really, really didn't want this guy to get the job. I love the club however and he is the club's choice to lead the team at present. Because of that I desperately want him to succeed.
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I hated that Astle day was ruined, I hated being thumped by Leeds, I have hated numerous other days where we have become the Patsy to numerous other clubs with more money, players with more character and desire (I can excuse ability), Big Sam will not tolerate such lack of desire, that is good enough for me at the moment.
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a) Me rooting for something to happen has zero impact on the probability of it happening
b) I have less than zero emotional commitment to the club being one of the also rans in the Premier League
c) I have multiple layers of dislike for Allardyce.
To a degree I fell into the necessary evil trap thinking with Pulis (who I disliked less but I lost what little respect I had for him as a person with the Palace shenanigans) and I won't be fooled again.
I have unconditional love for the club that does not stretch to everyone the club employs and just being employed by the club does give anyone salvation in my eyes.
Absolutely this, although I'm assuming that you meant to type "doesn't". Like everyone else, I was celebrating the win over the dingles and would have felt the same whoever the manager was. I will always want the club to do well. However, at the same time, I look forward to the day when Sam Allardyce is no longer our manager and will be very happy when that day comes.
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Now 4 points from 5 games, so let's put the **** Bilić ppg to bed.
4 points from 18 available now, and 0.67 PPG. That will drop to 0.57 PPG when Man City inevitably beat us next. Bilic was sacked after gaining 0.57 PPG. Allardye will have an identical PPG from his first 7 games to Bilic. Just goes to show that the team isn’t good enough. Spirited effort tonight but lacked quality in key areas. I really wish Button had played tonight, we need a keeper with presence who will come off his line.
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4 points from 18 available now, and 0.67 PPG. That will drop to 0.57 PPG when Man City inevitably best us next. Bilic was sacked after gaining 0.57 PPG. Allardye will have an identical PPG from his first 7 games to Bilic. Just goes to show that the team isn’t good enough. Spirited effort tonight but lacked quality in key areas. I really wish Button had played tonight, we need a keeper with presence who will come off his line.
Difference between Button and SJ is obvious if SJ doesnt pull off a worldy.
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Allardyce needs to buy 2 central midfielders, that's it. Defence battled away manfully. Robinson has good skill, pace, hold up play and is often battling 2 or 3 defenders.
We lost V WHU in Central midfield as they had a lot more quality.
Sawyers and Livermore tried 100%, simply not good enough either of them, shouldn't be starting in this league.
Go and get the Turkish fella and Choudhry!
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Allardyce needs to buy 2 central midfielders, that's it. Defence battled away manfully. Robinson has good skill, pace, hold up play and is often battling 2 or 3 defenders.
We lost V WHU in Central midfield as they had a lot more quality.
Sawyers and Livermore tried 100%, simply not good enough either of them, shouldn't be starting in this league.
Go and get the Turkish fella and Choudhry!
It’s not just central midfield.
We’re also desperate for a goalscorer, a left back and a keeper who comes off his line.
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Ajayi and Bartley are nowhere near the level we need. Time and time again they give away cheap fouls, ball watch, fail to head it clear, hoof it to noone. They seem to get an easy rise and we blame the midfield for us being poor defensively.
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4 points from 18 available now, and 0.67 PPG. That will drop to 0.57 PPG when Man City inevitably beat us next. Bilic was sacked after gaining 0.57 PPG. Allardye will have an identical PPG from his first 7 games to Bilic. Just goes to show that the team isn’t good enough. Spirited effort tonight but lacked quality in key areas. I really wish Button had played tonight, we need a keeper with presence who will come off his line.
Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
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Feel like we are improving and the players are buying into Allardyce finally , I also feel he's gone as far as he can with some of these players .It's really simple for Lai and Dowling now....back him and see a fighting chance or let it drift away .
If we go down your Periera's will go so for me I'd have sensible gamble on a few .
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4 points from 18 available now, and 0.67 PPG. That will drop to 0.57 PPG when Man City inevitably beat us next. Bilic was sacked after gaining 0.57 PPG. Allardye will have an identical PPG from his first 7 games to Bilic. Just goes to show that the team isn’t good enough. Spirited effort tonight but lacked quality in key areas. I really wish Button had played tonight, we need a keeper with presence who will come off his line.
totally agree with you mate. need signings urgent and button for me as I've said before.
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Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
That would be the definition of a miracle.
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Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
I'll drink to that Jacko, and if the right players come it wouldn't surprise me, but with this lot sorry can't see it.
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Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
What 3-2? That would be some acca ;)
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I'm concerned that we just aren't improving quickly enough - maybe that's a bit harsh on Sam as of course he needs time to fix things but time is the one thing we are fast running out of. After City next week we have two games which are almost must-win.
Also disappointed today to see us go ultra defensive within a few minutes of equalising today. We had a decent spell either side of the equaliser where we showed we could retain the ball and create decent situations - but within five minutes of Pereira's goal we were backs-to-the-wall facing wave after wave of West Ham attacks. Could see their second coming a mile off.
I know that a big part of the problem is that the players aren't good enough and I don't expect us to be dominating with 60% possession but better ball retention is essential to take pressure off a defence that simply isn't good enough when put under constant pressure.
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Mig i would expect quicker improvement once he's got a few more players in. He's still working with Bilic players currently bar Snodgrass
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I'm concerned that we just aren't improving quickly enough - maybe that's a bit harsh on Sam as of course he needs time to fix things but time is the one thing we are fast running out of. After City next week we have two games which are almost must-win.
Also disappointed today to see us go ultra defensive within a few minutes of equalising today. We had a decent spell either side of the equaliser where we showed we could retain the ball and create decent situations - but within five minutes of Pereira's goal we were backs-to-the-wall facing wave after wave of West Ham attacks. Could see their second coming a mile off.
I know that a big part of the problem is that the players aren't good enough and I don't expect us to be dominating with 60% possession but better ball retention is essential to take pressure off a defence that simply isn't good enough when put under constant pressure.
I don’t necessarily think it’s Sam’s fault. You can only work with what you’ve got and what we’ve got ain’t good enough in this league. Can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Need 4 quality’s signings but if you were quality would you want to come to us?
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Ajayi and Bartley are nowhere near the level we need. Time and time again they give away cheap fouls, ball watch, fail to head it clear, hoof it to noone. They seem to get an easy rise and we blame the midfield for us being poor defensively.
If you watch the matches our defenders are closed down so quickly by the opposition, often the midfield don't present for the ball. Livermore is sitting just in front of the defence, he simply doesn't have the energy to support the attack, plus his passing is generally poor. Sawyers is more comfortable on the ball but this more languid approach is.not good, not great at tackling.
I don't really know what we're criticising Ajayi and Bartley for? If the midfield don't show for the ball, they have no option but to play it long. Ajayi has scored 3 vital goals, Bartley is massively improved since the early days in the Championship.
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If you watch the matches our defenders are closed down so quickly by the opposition, often the midfield don't present for the ball. Livermore is sitting just in front of the defence, he simply doesn't have the energy to support the attack, plus his passing is generally poor. Sawyers is more comfortable on the ball but this more languid approach is.not good, not great at tackling.
I don't really know what we're criticising Ajayi and Bartley for? If the midfield don't show for the ball, they have no option but to play it long. Ajayi has scored 3 vital goals, Bartley is massively improved since the early days in the Championship.
Ajayi is a conundrum for Sam Allardyce. He's a massive threat from an attacking point of view but he's an abysmal centre back. Sam I think will back himself (and Sammy Lee) to improve him as a defender rather than discard him and his goal threat.
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Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
Please send me (to Canada) what you are putting in that Keto diet ;)
Having won 2 in 20 (and Sam with 1 win in 6) winning 5 in 9 would be some achievement...
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I don’t think we will stay up, I think it’s too big a task.
However if SA identifies and goes some way to solving our issues in 6 weeks with limited funds and loans, it’ll show up previous shortcoming and still show the change in manager was justified.
Staying up will be a huge success, and going down is obviously a failure I that respect, but doesn’t necessarily mean he’s done a bad job either.
He will know he needs 6 points from the next 3 games.
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Ajayi is a conundrum for Sam Allardyce. He's a massive threat from an attacking point of view but he's an abysmal centre back. Sam I think will back himself (and Sammy Lee) to improve him as a defender rather than discard him and his goal threat.
At times he loses concentration. He is the best athlete at the club, his pace at times does help enormously, especially when you consider the other CB candidates are Bartley, O'Shea, Ivanovic. No way does he deserve to be dropped IMO.
In the make up of our team, the problem area shines like a beacon - central midfield. As SA has limited funds this is the area to be addressed. Quality midfielders will allow us to occupy the opposition in their half and take the stress off the defence. You won't be worrying about our centre backs if we are the team in possession and threatening the opposition!
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At times he loses concentration. He is the best athlete at the club, his pace at times does help enormously, especially when you consider the other CB candidates are Bartley, O'Shea, Ivanovic. No way does he deserve to be dropped IMO.
In the make up of our team, the problem area shines like a beacon - central midfield. As SA has limited funds this is the area to be addressed. Quality midfielders will allow us to occupy the opposition in their half and take the stress off the defence. You won't be worrying about our centre backs if we are the team in possession and threatening the opposition!
He's lost concentration to the tune of (and this is a conservative estimate on my part) 15 of the 43 goals we've conceded this season.
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He's lost concentration to the tune of (and this is a conservative estimate on my part) 15 of the 43 goals we've conceded this season.
OK Ajayi is prone to conceding goals, agreed. But he is still better than Ivanovic. Kipre is an unknown quantity.
My view is that the Defence are put under too much pressure because we have poor quality in central midfield.
We simply don't retain possession for long enough, don't carve out enough genuine goalscoring chances and most noticeably do an awful job in screening the defence.
The highly rated Evans, McAauley, Olssob had 3 top quality screening midfielders in Mulumbu, Yacob, Scharner.
We cannot delay any longer in bringing in a better CM, otherwise we have no chance. Livermore and Sawyers wouldn't get in any other team in the division.
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I don’t necessarily think it’s Sam’s fault. You can only work with what you’ve got and what we’ve got ain’t good enough in this league. Can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Need 4 quality’s signings but if you were quality would you want to come to us?
This is correct. It was also correct when several posters on here were pointing the finger at Bilic for not getting 100% out of the squad and unreasonably blaming him for not over-achieving. The team is four quality players short of a decent premiership outfit. The board were told that by Bilic and ignored him and no doubt Allardyce has and is also telling them we need reinforcements.
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OK Ajayi is prone to conceding goals, agreed. But he is still better than Ivanovic. Kipre is an unknown quantity.
My view is that the Defence are put under too much pressure because we have poor quality in central midfield.
We simply don't retain possession for long enough, don't carve out enough genuine goalscoring chances and most noticeably do an awful job in screening the defence.
The highly rated Evans, McAauley, Olssob had 3 top quality screening midfielders in Mulumbu, Yacob, Scharner.
We cannot delay any longer in bringing in a better CM, otherwise we have no chance. Livermore and Sawyers wouldn't get in any other team in the division.
I don't see us keeping many clean sheets until we get a keeper who can command his box. That is why it was very deflating to see Button dropped back to the bench this evening, rather than keeping his place on merit.
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I fail to see what a new striker will do other than what Robinson is already doing? The guy is feeding off scraps most of the time.
You have to play Livermore and Sawyers together with Gallagher just to shore things up further, that's where you're missing a 2nd striker, in the need to play both JL and RS.
A Goalkeeper doesn't even relate to 5% of our problems in my view.
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I fail to see what a new striker will do other than what Robinson is already doing? The guy is feeding off scraps most of the time.
You have to play Livermore and Sawyers together with Gallagher just to shore things up further, that's where you're missing a 2nd striker, in the need to play both JL and RS.
A Goalkeeper doesn't even relate to 5% of our problems in my view.
agree with this, Harry Kane cannot score without the ball, it would be interesting to see a touch map for Robinson.
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I fail to see what a new striker will do other than what Robinson is already doing? The guy is feeding off scraps most of the time.
You have to play Livermore and Sawyers together with Gallagher just to shore things up further, that's where you're missing a 2nd striker, in the need to play both JL and RS.
A Goalkeeper doesn't even relate to 5% of our problems in my view.
Until we scope conceding 2-4 goals a game we won't have a chance and the most important player defensively is the keeper.
I agree with you that Robinson is playing well with scant support.
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I fail to see what a new striker will do other than what Robinson is already doing? The guy is feeding off scraps most of the time.
You have to play Livermore and Sawyers together with Gallagher just to shore things up further, that's where you're missing a 2nd striker, in the need to play both JL and RS.
A Goalkeeper doesn't even relate to 5% of our problems in my view.
Get hold of it when it does come along. Maybe cut inside and get shots off. Odemwingie did this very well and so did Lukaku. Unless we tighten up at the back then I agree a new striker isn’t going to be effective.
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Get hold of it when it does come along. Maybe cut inside and get shots off. Odemwingie did this very well and so did Lukaku. Unless we tighten up at the back then I agree a new striker isn’t going to be effective.
At the end of the day we need a goalscorer in and we also need to stop conceding so many goals, it's not an either/or choice between the two (not suggesting you were implying that).
Allardyce is like Captain Mainwaring running around the Titanic trying to patch the holes up in the hull up with a mop and bucket generously funded by the board whilst the tidal-waves of relegation water invade the club. Meanwhile Dowling and the Lai are up on the bridge insisting we only have a minor leak that a few reinforcements will sort out.
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If you watch the matches our defenders are closed down so quickly by the opposition, often the midfield don't present for the ball. Livermore is sitting just in front of the defence, he simply doesn't have the energy to support the attack, plus his passing is generally poor. Sawyers is more comfortable on the ball but this more languid approach is.not good, not great at tackling.
I don't really know what we're criticising Ajayi and Bartley for? If the midfield don't show for the ball, they have no option but to play it long. Ajayi has scored 3 vital goals, Bartley is massively improved since the early days in the Championship.
I'm more talking about when we don't have the ball. Apart from being able to run quicker than Bartley Ajayi is not great at CH. Bartley isn't great either yet when we criticise the goals conceded we pin most of the blame on the midfield for some reason. Both of today's goal was from poor defending from the CH's, especially Ajayi.
With Ajayi, for someone good in the air at the other end of the pitch he doesn't seem to cope too well with balls into our own box. We have CH's who get the ball stuck under their feet, can't clear it, give cheap fouls away consistently, etc.
Even when we do have the ball there's no need for them repeatedly smash it through to their keeper. OShea is guilty for this too. Do they not practice?
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Problem is if we go 2 down we have to score 3 and we are not capable of doing that.
We need good defensive mid-fielder to shield Bartley and Semi. Sawyers and Livermore are not doing that. Maybe pull Gallagher back a bit to do that job.
Someone mentioned Sharner, Mulumbu and Yacob shielding our centre backs. Those players were a godsend and boy do we need someone of their calibre now
some sort of "enforcer".
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I fail to see what a new striker will do other than what Robinson is already doing? The guy is feeding off scraps most of the time.
You have to play Livermore and Sawyers together with Gallagher just to shore things up further, that's where you're missing a 2nd striker, in the need to play both JL and RS.
A Goalkeeper doesn't even relate to 5% of our problems in my view.
Provide a target, hold the ball up, pose a threat at set pieces both ends. Robinson works hard, makes good runs and closes down well but offers non of those qualities.
BS will be looking for a unit to play up top.
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Provide a target, hold the ball up, pose a threat at set pieces both ends. Robinson works hard, makes good runs and closes down well but offers non of those qualities.
BS will be looking for a unit to play up top.
I'm talking about priority areas for a club that has limited capital.
Yes we could improve Ajayi, Bartley, Robinson and the guy that replaces himoff the bench that does nothing. How much money is this going to cost, a lot probably?
It's clear to me THE WEAKEST 2 players are Sawyers and Livermore. Therefore if we have limited money and limited personnel changes, this needs to be addressed ASAP.
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I'm talking about priority areas for a club that has limited capital.
Yes we could improve Ajayi, Bartley, Robinson and the guy that replaces himoff the bench that does nothing. How much money is this going to cost, a lot probably?
It's clear to me THE WEAKEST 2 players are Sawyers and Livermore. Therefore if we have limited money and limited personnel changes, this needs to be addressed ASAP.
I agree that we can't play Livermore and Sawyers together in this division and remain competetive. The lack of a DCM needs to be addressed in the short and medium term but let's hope it is in this window. A midfield of say Chowdray, Gallacher, Snodders, Grosicki and Pez is a different beast to the one we are putting out. Livermore and Sawyers become part of a stronger unit.
I do however think a new CF is equally important in this set up. BS wants the ball played forward quicker and to play more in the opponents final third. At the moment there is no target man so we are having to play channel balls and anything p!ayed centrally is coming straight back, particularly from those clearing punts forward. A target man up front who can hold the ball up and battle for possession allows the whole team to move forward as a unit and brings our attacking players into the game in the right areas. Doesn't need to be a prolific scorer, which is fortunate as we couldn't afford or attract one, but someone who can bring others into play and also offer a threat at set pieces. Kevin Davies won an England cap playing this role for BS back in the day. This isn't a like for like replacement for Robinson but a completely different role. I would expect the likes of Robinson and Grant to be given opportunities to support from wide positions.
Personally I think we are at least a CB, RB, DCM and CF short of giving ourselves any chance of survival. However if we can address the deficiencies in the DCM and CF positions it will balance out the squad in readiness for next year regardless of division.
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Livermore is sitting just in front of the defence, he simply doesn't have the energy to support the attack, plus his passing is generally poor. Sawyers is more comfortable on the ball but this more languid approach is.not good, not great at tackling.
I'm guessing that's the reason they're played together. Unfortunately that means we effectively have a 10 man team (until someone gets themself sent off).
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I'd rather see at least 1, if not 2, good quality CH's. We concede too many from either of those switching off.
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At the end of the day we need a goalscorer in and we also need to stop conceding so many goals, it's not an either/or choice between the two (not suggesting you were implying that).
Allardyce is like Captain Mainwaring running around the Titanic trying to patch the holes up in the hull up with a mop and bucket generously funded by the board whilst the tidal-waves of relegation water invade the club. Meanwhile Dowling and the Lai are up on the bridge insisting we only have a minor leak that a few reinforcements will sort out.
Captain Mainwaring was on the Titanic?
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Captain Mainwaring was on the Titanic?
I think we can allow ubiquitous poetic license for the man and machine referred to by the author, to more graphically demonstrate the point he is making. ;D
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I agree that we can't play Livermore and Sawyers together in this division and remain competetive. The lack of a DCM needs to be addressed in the short and medium term but let's hope it is in this window. A midfield of say Chowdray, Gallacher, Snodders, Grosicki and Pez is a different beast to the one we are putting out. Livermore and Sawyers become part of a stronger unit.
I do however think a new CF is equally important in this set up. BS wants the ball played forward quicker and to play more in the opponents final third. At the moment there is no target man so we are having to play channel balls and anything p!ayed centrally is coming straight back, particularly from those clearing punts forward. A target man up front who can hold the ball up and battle for possession allows the whole team to move forward as a unit and brings our attacking players into the game in the right areas. Doesn't need to be a prolific scorer, which is fortunate as we couldn't afford or attract one, but someone who can bring others into play and also offer a threat at set pieces. Kevin Davies won an England cap playing this role for BS back in the day. This isn't a like for like replacement for Robinson but a completely different role. I would expect the likes of Robinson and Grant to be given opportunities to support from wide positions.
Personally I think we are at least a CB, RB, DCM and CF short of giving ourselves any chance of survival. However if we can address the deficiencies in the DCM and CF positions it will balance out the squad in readiness for next year regardless of division.
WHU won the midfield battle and pushed JL/RS back 10 or 15 yards, so they were sitting close to the centre backs. By continuing with JL/RS in future matches and prioritising a battering ram striker, we'll be playing like a League 1 team. This is not the way to play in the Premier League.
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At the end of the day we need a goalscorer in and we also need to stop conceding so many goals, it's not an either/or choice between the two (not suggesting you were implying that).
Allardyce is like Captain Mainwaring running around the Titanic trying to patch the holes up in the hull up with a mop and bucket generously funded by the board whilst the tidal-waves of relegation water invade the club. Meanwhile Dowling and the Lai are up on the bridge insisting we only have a minor leak that a few reinforcements will sort out.
Paints the picture beautifully. Can't see Lei as captain Smith though, more like a corporal Jones running around the boat deck yelling 'don't panic don't panic' then jumping into the nearest lifeboat.
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Once again come back to me after 13 games... Also didn't realise we'd already lost next Tuesday's game ???
I'm going out on a limb, we'll win 5 of the next 9 games ;D
Love the positivity, but no chance whatsoever.
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We had a run of 6 games leading upto the Palace collapse where we were keeping a couple of clean sheets and only letting in one goal, we played with three at the back then and i think Big Sam may revert to that as it suits the personnel we have.
Its stating the obvious but we cant keep conceding at least two goals a game and expect to get results, Big Sam said himself we have to tighten up, concentrate more, stop crosses, etc but so far it hasnt really happened.
One of the issues is that our best full back is O'Shea who is actually a centre half, at times that shows but he is still better defensively than the others but i would imagine Allardyce will want to get him back into centre half.
Furlong and Gibbs both offer something going forward but are average defenders, crosses still come into the box when they have played as RB / LB, Townsend is better defensively than Gibbs but not as good going forward.
As we have limited funds this window i dont think full backs will be a top priority, so we almost have to adapt to what we have which to me would be go back to three at the back, the fact we currently have 5 centre halfs on our books (O'Shea, Ajay, Bartley, Kipre and Ivanovic) and Big Sam apparently still wants to sign another, shows he isnt convinced.
Furlong or Snograss as a right wing back, Gibbs, Townsend or Diangana as a left wing back, and three centre halfs, the left and right sided centre backs can get out to try and block crosses where needed still leaving two centre halves in the middle plus the defensive midfielder should provide plenty of numbers and cover, almost have safety in numbers.
You then could have three midfielders, one being the new defensive midfielder and then Snodgrass, Gallagher or Livermore alongside them. Bit further forward would be Pereira, he does track back but in that role he has some freedom and gets on the ball more.
Then a big striker up top with Grant / Robinson playing off them, i like Grosicki and would certainly keep him as an option should we switch to wingers, but i am not sure he is a Allardyce type player defensively, he was only picked against Wolves because Diangana got injured the day before, he has done well but i dont see him being a regular under Big Sam.
There a lot of positives from the team last two game but when conceding at least two a game your not really giving yourself a chance and Allardyce will do whatever to solve that issue.
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Paints the picture beautifully. Can't see Lei as captain smith though, more like a corporal Jones running around the boat deck yelling 'don't panic don't panic' then jumping into the nearest lifeboat.
Lai wouldn't even be on the boat!
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WHU won the midfield battle and pushed JL/RS back 10 or 15 yards, so they were sitting close to the centre backs. By continuing with JL/RS in future matches and prioritising a battering ram striker, we'll be playing like a League 1 team. This is not the way to play in the Premier League.
Not saying its how I'd play, but getting it out of danger areas quickly and keeping shape seems to be a key part of his game plan. And the ball needs to stick occasionally to both relieve pressure and then move us up the pitch. The concept of a battering ram is a bit outdated, but it's been mentioned before that Rondon would have been a good fit. He was often left completely isolated under TTITC but here he would be supported by Grosicki, Snodders, Perreira etc.
As I said, not my preferred style but with BS in charge I think a CF will be a priority of equivalence to a DCM. However I looks like it will be more dependent on BS's little black book working rather than our glorious scouting dept.
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Lai wouldn't even be on the boat!
True re Titanic, but unfortunately he is on the good ship WBA, and looking for a lifeboat, any life boat, regardless.
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As we have limited funds this window i dont think full backs will be a top priority, so we almost have to adapt to what we have which to me would be go back to three at the back, the fact we currently have 5 centre halfs on our books (O'Shea, Ajay, Bartley, Kipre and Ivanovic) and Big Sam apparently still wants to sign another, shows he isnt convinced.
He knows that formation is irrelevant if your CBs continue to make mistakes or have lapses in concentration. We know Bartley, for all his effort, has form on both and Semi for all his physical attributes has been the same this season. Ivanovic was the gamble that backfired and neither Slav or Sam have shown any interest in Kipre. A new RB would allow O'Shea to play his preferred position but he is young, raw and inepexperienced. Hence a new CB on the shopping list.
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I don't think O'Shea is good enough in either of his positions. A new RB is desperately needed. Last night O'Shea lost the ball 28 times, 11 times more than any other player. He had more touches of ball than any of our players but 1 in 2.8 touches he ended up giving it away. 48% passing accuracy and a season average of 65.9%. This is for a RB who should have passing options.
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Its all right talking about we need a target man to hold the ball up, but we've all seen lone No.9's struggling to hold onto the ball smashed 40 yards up to him and then getting outnumbered. There have been a fair few falling under that description at the Albion.
A No. 9 needs support around him. That's why its more important to get the team playing as a unit higher up the pitch. I much prefer attacks starting through the midfield and linking the No. 9 with short passes. Or getting widemen (wingers and full backs) in behind their opposite numbers and cutting the ball back.
I think that was what Bilic was trying to do, and I hope SA adopts those tactics rather than this old-fashioned long ball stuff up to a target man.
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......Allardyce is like Captain Mainwaring running around the Titanic trying to patch the holes up in the hull up with a mop and bucket......
Sounds more like a job for Captain Pugwash to me. Square pegs and round holes again with Mainwaring. Welcome to the forum Mr. Dowling, nice to have you aboard ;D .
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“Sam Allardyce has won the @LMA_Managers Performance of the Week award after securing the local bragging rights at Wolves 🏅 Congratulations, gaffer!†🙌
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Its all right talking about we need a target man to hold the ball up, but we've all seen lone No.9's struggling to hold onto the ball smashed 40 yards up to him and then getting outnumbered. There have been a fair few falling under that description at the Albion.
A No. 9 needs support around him. That's why its more important to get the team playing as a unit higher up the pitch. I much prefer attacks starting through the midfield and linking the No. 9 with short passes. Or getting widemen (wingers and full backs) in behind their opposite numbers and cutting the ball back.
I think that was what Bilic was trying to do, and I hope SA adopts those tactics rather than this old-fashioned long ball stuff up to a target man.
I believe (hope?) that the awfull football you describe played by Pullis is different to what BS will be offering. Poor Rondon, battling for the ball with three defenders round him whilst our one paced midfield plodded up towards him.
If we can get that target man I fully expect the likes of Grosicki, Pez. Robinson, Grady and Grant on his return to be told to get on their bike in support. We have seen that in phases all ready. Get up the pitch and press high!! That was not the Pullis way (shudders!!).
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I believe (hope?) that the awfull football you describe played by Pullis is different to what BS will be offering. Poor Rondon, battling for the ball with three defenders round him whilst our one paced midfield plodded up towards him.
If we can get that target man I fully expect the likes of Grosicki, Pez. Robinson, Grady and Grant on his return to be told to get on their bike in support. We have seen that in phases all ready. Get up the pitch and press high!! That was not the Pullis way (shudders!!).
Okay it is not possible to be more defensive and regressive than Pulis. However Allardyce's basic approach is similar there might be a little bit more attacking intent on occasion but it isn't a whole lot better and there is a very heavy reliance on set pieces and chasing punts down the channel and the forward will be a having a chat with the oppositions centre halves because he is bored and lonely.
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I don't think O'Shea is good enough in either of his positions. A new RB is desperately needed. Last night O'Shea lost the ball 28 times, 11 times more than any other player. He had more touches of ball than any of our players but 1 in 2.8 touches he ended up giving it away. 48% passing accuracy and a season average of 65.9%. This is for a RB who should have passing options.
Not surprised at any of our players passing stats since the order seemed to be hoof it up the field - especially before we went behind. Rubbish football belongs in a museum along with drawings of 40 a side teams chasing a blown-up pig's bladder.
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I don't think O'Shea is good enough in either of his positions. A new RB is desperately needed. Last night O'Shea lost the ball 28 times, 11 times more than any other player. He had more touches of ball than any of our players but 1 in 2.8 touches he ended up giving it away. 48% passing accuracy and a season average of 65.9%. This is for a RB who should have passing options.
O’Shea needs time to develop in a functioning defence and in a set position. In his first 12 months as a first team player, he has played RB, LB, CB in a pair & CB in a 3 man defence.
There is obvious talent there as he has been the stand out defender in some games while also being man of the match in one of his first Ireland games but at 21 we have to expect him to be quite raw. I think he will be one of the few players clubs will enquire about in the summer.
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Sam Allardyce on Benteke: "I am not sure if Christian is available that’s down to the head of recruitment and Luke - if they came to me and said Christian is available, I’m not sure that’s the case at the moment, but if he’s available I’d be interested‘
I think that shows how much transfers are really down to Allardyce for the people who were slating him for ‘not going out and getting players’
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55801431 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55801431)
Pep on Big Sam.
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If/When we go down , I hope he stays and gets the chance to build a team for a promotion charge.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55801431 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55801431)
Pep on Big Sam.
Remember when certain fans used to moan about Pulis saying nice things about the opposition team and manager in the pre-match press conferences? Even though it's 100% a standard thing for managers to do. ;D
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Mr Christine Brinkleys eye candy
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I want to know what Allardyce is actually seeing on the training pitch? This is just awful again.
Since the football league started in 1888, this must go down as a WBA record for the worst sequence of HOME reaults over a 4 game stretch. It was 0-12 coming into the match and we are now standing at 0-15.
To actually have Sawyers & Livermore in Central Midfield v this standard of opposition is beyond belief. There really is no excuse because even allowing for the meagre budget there are players out there for £100,000 who are better than JL & RS.
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You could get 2 mediocre championship cloggers who would improve on Sawyers and Livermore a disgrace it wasnt addressed in the summer.
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I want to know what Allardyce is actually seeing on the training pitch? This is just awful again.
Since the football league started in 1888, this must go down as a WBA record for the worst sequence of HOME reaults over a 4 game stretch. It was 0-12 coming into the match and we are now standing at 0-15.
To actually have Sawyers & Livermore in Central Midfield v this standard of opposition is beyond belief. There really is no excuse because even allowing for the meagre budget there are players out there for £100,000 who are better than JL & RS.
No doubt some fans will suggest he needs to be given time 😂
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Many wanted Bilic out thinking a new manager would fare better.
Allardyce has made us worse, even under Pardew we offered more than this.
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Don't know what this Dingle is doing needs to do one
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Starting to looks like the Pardew side (the Wolves game apart).
Still, atleast now poorly run clubs like ours might think twice about Allardyce and may instead try somebody a bit different. Need to make sure Allardyce stays just long enough to get that 'R' next to his name.
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Genuine question, do any of the fans who supported the sacking of Bilic and replacing him with Allardyce now believe they got it wrong?
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You could get 2 mediocre championship cloggers who would improve on Sawyers and Livermore a disgrace it wasnt addressed in the summer.
For all Bilic's shortcomings as soon as Gallagher was up and running he was drafted in and only one.of Sawyers /Livermore was deployed.
Early in the season we were tanked 5-2 EVE, 0-3 LEI, 2-0 SOT without Gallagher. Afterwards, bar CP we were very much competitive in the games.
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I genuinely do not see what he is trying to achieve, there is no game plan other than stick 11 players out and hope for the best. We seem to be chopping and changing formations week by week.
The back 4 look like they’ve never met each other, the defensive line is all over the place. Ajayi has no defensive discipline and costs us at least a goal a game, Livermore offers nothing and Sawyers even less.
We should cut our losses, sack him now before he signs a load of garbage this window and get someone in with a view to building for next season in the championship and who has a 5 year plan of what they want to achieve.
I have serious concerns that this time next year we will be in and around the bottom 3 of the championship, and when we get relegated I will be having a sizeable bet on us being relegated again.
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Pepe called Sam a genius in his pre match comments...Boardroom must have had the bar open early !!!!
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I agree Greg but we needed an actual DCM. Gallagher isn't one he just tries very hard to be. He's still our best CM and needs an actual.dcm to help.
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could someone please tell me what the hell Sawyers is doing out there again, i'd sack sam for that alone.
Nothing as changed, we have a side now totally confused and no confidence whatsoever.
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Pepe called Sam a genius in his pre match comments...Boardroom must have had the bar open early !!!!
A genius for getting a job again. Just go Fat Sam....please
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Wonder what Slav thinks watching this....
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Wonder what Slav thinks watching this....
Chuckling
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Blokes got a track record second to none at clubs like ours when given money to spend , if they had no intention of backing him then why bring him in ?
Utter clowns running the club and its coming home big style now.
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Nothing surprises me under Lai.
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Blokes got a track record second to mone at clubs like ours when given money to spend , if they had no intention of backing him then why bring him in ?
Utter clowns running the club and its coming home big style now.
this is all part of the master plan you'll see.
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this is all part of the master plan you'll see.
As in ?
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Just a useless employee.
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I think Allardyce will walk, Morrison will be put in charge we will win a game and draw a couple everone will go mad for him to get the job, then it all goes pear shaped he gets sacked ( see Darren Moore) and off we go again. Utter joke.
The joke was appointing Allardyce in the first place.
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I think Allardyce will walk, Morrison will be put in charge we will win a game and draw a couple everone will go mad for him to get the job, then it all goes pear shaped he gets sacked ( see Darren Moore) and off we go again. Utter joke.
Big Dave only had himself to blame (Graeme Jones appointment).
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I think Allardyce will walk, Morrison will be put in charge we will win a game and draw a couple everone will go mad for him to get the job, then it all goes pear shaped he gets sacked ( see Darren Moore) and off we go again. Utter joke.
Morrison could pull his boots back on and offer more than some of these .
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Big Dave only had himself to blame (Graeme Jones appointment).
I agree with you i said at the time if he keeps Jones it will cost him his job. Just trying to say i can see history repeating itself.
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I think Allardyce will walk, Morrison will be put in charge we will win a game and draw a couple everone will go mad for him to get the job, then it all goes pear shaped he gets sacked ( see Darren Moore) and off we go again. Utter joke.
I said this a few weeks back deja vu, this club never learns and will never have the paitence or nerve to hold onto something that may get better with time. Southampton, WHU, Villa, all could have sacked there managers at some point over the last year or so, but they held there nerve kept them and are now seeing vast improvments. We always look for the quick fix season to season rather than something more long term.
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I think Allardyce will walk, Morrison will be put in charge we will win a game and draw a couple everone will go mad for him to get the job, then it all goes pear shaped he gets sacked ( see Darren Moore) and off we go again. Utter joke.
Agreed
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Morrison could pull his boots back on and offer more than some of these .
To true Dexy to true.
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Albion 0
Others 17
That’s in Big Sam’s first 4 home games.
Big Sam OUT.
Lai OUT.
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Starting to looks like the Pardew side (the Wolves game apart).
Still, atleast now poorly run clubs like ours might think twice about Allardyce and may instead try somebody a bit different. Need to make sure Allardyce stays just long enough to get that 'R' next to his name.
Agreed. The Pardew team got that result at Anfield in the FA Cup like we got a result at wolves but the comparisons are similar except I dont think under pardew as poor as we were we took hammerings all the time like this
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I agree with you i said at the time if he keeps Jones it will cost him his job. Just trying to say i can see history repeating itself.
Oh yeah I knew what you meant, what I was getting at was I'd hope Mozza wouldn't make the same mistake if that transpired.
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Debate Big Sam all you want, but we can't talk about potential replacements when the incumbent is in place.
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If Sam thinks showing up these cowards to the board will get any emotion or reaction from them he's sorely mistaken just like Bilic was.
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Albion 0
Others 17
That’s in Big Sam’s first 4 home games.
Big Sam OUT.
Lai OUT.
With supposedly one of the best defensive coaches around
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Was Bilic the fall guy for the boardroom: Yes
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic: Yes
Did a section of our fan base lose the plot: Yes
Is Allardyce getting as much out of these players as Bilic: No
Would either manager have kept us up: No
Would it help to now sack Allardyce: No
Can the squad compete in the premiership: No
Did the lack of funds condemn us to relegation: Yes
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so Sam has deployed operation rope a dope, next game we bounce off the ropes and bloody Fulhams nose ! Well its an idea !
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Was Bilic the fall guy for the boardroom: Yes
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic: Yes
Did a section of our fan base lose the plot: Yes
Is Allardyce getting as much out of these players as Bilic: No
Would either manager have kept us up: No
Would it help to now sack Allardyce: No
Can the squad compete in the premiership: No
Did the lack of funds condemn us to relegation: Yes
No chance in the Championship either.
Thank you Dowling!
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so Sam has deployed operation rope a dope, next game we bounce off the ropes and bloody Fulhams nose ! Well its an idea !
We're certainly not aiming to finish above anyone on goal difference.
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The joke was appointing Allardyce in the first place.
His record speaks for itself , those above thinking they as usual could do it on the cheap as usual is the joke .
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Was Bilic the fall guy for the boardroom: Yes
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic: Yes
Did a section of our fan base lose the plot: Yes
Is Allardyce getting as much out of these players as Bilic: No
Would either manager have kept us up: No
Would it help to now sack Allardyce: No
Can the squad compete in the premiership: No
Did the lack of funds condemn us to relegation: Yes
I’d agree with everything other than not sacking Allardyce, I don’t see the point in him being in charge given its highly unlikely he won’t be hear next season anyway.
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Was Bilic the fall guy for the boardroom: Yes
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic: Yes
Did a section of our fan base lose the plot: Yes
Is Allardyce getting as much out of these players as Bilic: No
Would either manager have kept us up: No
Would it help to now sack Allardyce: No
Can the squad compete in the premiership: No
Did the lack of funds condemn us to relegation: Yes
Agreed. Dowling and Ken thought We will get in the man whose never been relegated and thought we would suddenly become a good team
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Agreed. Dowling and Ken thought We will get in the man whose never been relegated and thought we would suddenly become a good team
You might be onto something there as they seem to have no understanding of football on any level.
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No chance in the Championship either.
Thank you Dowling!
Dowling has to work with the meagre budget set. The problem is above him. We should have invested more this summer, realising that 1/3 years budget wasn't enough to bring the squad up to a competitive level. Or secondly accepted relegation and done a Norwich. Instead we spent pennies and then blamed the manager for the team not being good enough. Hence new manager and the team still isn't good enough and we still have no money to spend!
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His record speaks for itself , those above thinking they as usual could do it on the cheap as usual is the joke .
If he was taking over from Pulis it would make sense. Taking over this group of players who are weak defensively and expecting them to defend constantly was never going to work. You don't expose the weakest part of your entire team on purpose.
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Sam played his part in our relegation to division 3 in 1991 and it looks like hes playing his part in another disastrous season in our illustrious history!
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God I'm seething I tell you. That absolute backside Guardiola pulling Gündoğan before he picked up the clean sheet points for me fantasy team.
Us? Allardyce? Yes, whatever totally standard.
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If he was taking over from Pulis it would make sense. Taking over this group of players who are weak defensively and expecting them to defend constantly was never going to work. You don't expose the weakest part of your entire team on purpose.
Funds mate , 3 players I think would be enough to transform this side at a push .
It won't happen now , even getting rid of quite a few .....clear to me its just cost cutting from above .
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Dowling has to work with the meagre budget set. The problem is above him. We should have invested more this summer, realising that 1/3 years budget wasn't enough to bring the squad up to a competitive level. Or secondly accepted relegation and done a Norwich. Instead we spent pennies and then blamed the manager for the team not being good enough. Hence new manager and the team still isn't good enough and we still have no money to spend!
With our budget you need good scouting. It appears that we don't. Surely this is down to Dowling.
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With our budget you need good scouting. It appears that we don't. Surely this is down to Dowling.
Only one thing to add... Lai the blinkered idiot
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Funds mate , 3 players I think would be enough to transform this side at a push .
It won't happen now , even getting rid of quite a few .....clear to me its just cost cutting from above .
I have thought that this could be a situation where the club have accepted they cannot compete and Allardyces real role is to make us as attractive as possible to a suitor for a championship club "with potential"
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I don't understand why Allardyce hasn't brought in 4 or 5 players already. These players are absolutely shot mentally not even looking at ability. They are carrying huge scars from the recent poundings.
Allardyce has been lazy in recruitment. There are hundreds of thousands of footballers out there. To actually wait 26 days of the transfer window and do nothing in the last 18 days is just negligence. Snodgrass was signed on 8th Jan!
To actually play Sawyers & Livermore and not appreciate that it's a huge problem area is just inconceivable.
Farting around with Benteke, Musa and other strikers when Robinson is one of our best players.
Oh and nice to bring on Phillips and HRK in the 2nd half tonight....
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I don't understand why Allardyce hasn't brought in 4 or 5 players already. These players are absolutely shot mentally not even looking at ability. They are carrying huge scars from the recent poundings.
Allardyce has been lazy in recruitment. There are hundreds of thousands of footballers out there. To actually wait 26 days of the transfer window and do nothing in the last 18 days is just negligence. Snodgrass was signed on 8th Jan!
To actually play Sawyers & Livermore and not appreciate that it's a huge problem area is just inconceivable.
Farting around with Benteke, Musa and other strikers when Robinson is one of our best players.
Oh and nice to bring on Phillips and HRK in the 2nd half tonight....
Amazed anyone still thinks Allardyce does the deals tbh. He'd have had 7 or 8 in by now if it was up to him.
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Amazed anyone still thinks Allardyce does the deals tbh. He'd have had 7 or 8 in by now if it was up to him.
Surely the same could be said about Bilic?
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The fax machine will be over flowing when the lads get in tomorrow,
thanks but no thanks !
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Awful team with no back bone, manager devoid of ideas and who the players clearly aren't buying into, owner with no interest and no money for investment . You can only think Sam is here for a few quid as theres not much other point?
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I don't understand why Allardyce hasn't brought in 4 or 5 players already. These players are absolutely shot mentally not even looking at ability. They are carrying huge scars from the recent poundings.
Allardyce has been lazy in recruitment. There are hundreds of thousands of footballers out there. To actually wait 26 days of the transfer window and do nothing in the last 18 days is just negligence. Snodgrass was signed on 8th Jan!
To actually play Sawyers & Livermore and not appreciate that it's a huge problem area is just inconceivable.
Farting around with Benteke, Musa and other strikers when Robinson is one of our best players.
Oh and nice to bring on Phillips and HRK in the 2nd half tonight....
I’m sorry mate but why do you still persist with this idea that Allardyce is in charge of recruitment? The quote below tells you all you need to know about how our recruitment works;
Sam Allardyce on Benteke: "I am not sure if Christian is available that’s down to the head of recruitment and Luke - if they came to me and said Christian is available, I’m not sure that’s the case at the moment, but if he’s available I’d be interested. #wba
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I just can't see that Bilic would have got as bad results as Allardyce in the games since the latter took over.
If you replace a manager with one who uses a completely different style of football, then you have to bring in a decent number of players (at least 5) to suit the new style. To do anything else is simply madness.
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I don't understand why Allardyce hasn't brought in 4 or 5 players already. These players are absolutely shot mentally not even looking at ability. They are carrying huge scars from the recent poundings.
Allardyce confirmed at the last press conference the problem in this window is that A) selling clubs expect us to pay them money for their players and B) the better players with other options would rather not join a team 19th in the premiership that is sinking. We had the same problem in the summer under a different manager. The solution is obvious, don't try and compete in the premiership with a championship budget.
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Was Bilic the fall guy for the boardroom: Yes
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic: Yes
Did a section of our fan base lose the plot: Yes
Is Allardyce getting as much out of these players as Bilic: No
Would either manager have kept us up: No
Would it help to now sack Allardyce: No
Can the squad compete in the premiership: No
Did the lack of funds condemn us to relegation: Yes
Oh come off it. Are you an Albion fan or a Bilic fan?
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic- a bloke who had started the season worse than any other premier league Albion manager? No. Our problem was that we didn't bring in somebody more suited to this side, like Paul Cook.
The fans didn't lose their heads for daring to question the guy you have a shrine for.
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Amazed anyone still thinks Allardyce does the deals tbh. He'd have had 7 or 8 in by now if it was up to him.
I don't buy this, even if Allardyce had have brought a player from the conference for a pittance, Dowling would've delivered on that front.
Lee Hughes, Jamie Vardy, Charlie Austin, plus countless others were all picked up from non-league.
Allardyce hasn't gone outside the box or shown any creativity here. The blokes SA have gone for are clearly outside our budget.
We've basically done zilch for 18 days, that is just putting 2 fingers to the fan base and saying we don't give a monkeys
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I just can't see that Bilic would have got as bad results as Allardyce in the games since the latter took over.
If you replace a manager with one who uses a completely different style of football, then you have to bring in a decent number of players (at least 5) to suit the new style. To do anything else is simply madness.
That's true because Bilic played a style of football that better suited the players limited strengths and consequently got more out of the squad.
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I don't understand why Allardyce hasn't brought in 4 or 5 players already. These players are absolutely shot mentally not even looking at ability. They are carrying huge scars from the recent poundings.
Allardyce has been lazy in recruitment. There are hundreds of thousands of footballers out there. To actually wait 26 days of the transfer window and do nothing in the last 18 days is just negligence. Snodgrass was signed on 8th Jan!
To actually play Sawyers & Livermore and not appreciate that it's a huge problem area is just inconceivable.
Farting around with Benteke, Musa and other strikers when Robinson is one of our best players.
Oh and nice to bring on Phillips and HRK in the 2nd half tonight....
Apart from a couple of years under Pulis, this club has had a structure with a director of football/sporting and technical director for around 14 years now.
Luke Dowling, not Sam Allardyce, leads on player recruitment.
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Oh come off it. Are you an Albion fan or a Bilic fan?
Was it a waste of time to sack Bilic- a bloke who had started the season worse than any other premier league Albion manager? No. Our problem was that we didn't bring in somebody more suited to this side, like Paul Cook. The fans didn't lose their heads for daring to question the guy you have a shrine for.
I am a realist - something I recommend you consider trying out. If you genuinely believe that the problem is in the dug out rather than a lack of quality on the pitch then I can not help you.
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Albion82 is carrying Slaven Bilić’s baby. Scandalous.
I'm carrying both Bilic baby and Big Sam's baby by pointing that that it's unreasonable to expect any manager to keep this squad in the premiership and that the change in manger has seen us regress as the players preferred their old boss.
Bilic got 85% out of the squad and Big Sam is getting 70%; no manger gets 100% and we needed 150% to survive.
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Surely the same could be said about Bilic?
It can - he also wanted more additions of quality in the summer.
Allardyce will be the same.
The common denominator throughout all of this is Luke Dowling. Again.
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So just to be clear. The players recruited in the summer were Bilic's fault, but Sam has nothing at all to do with recruitment now and it's all Dowling?
Not aimed at you there Liam, cross posted. I agree with you that Dowling is the one fingers should be pointed at.
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If he doesn't get 6 points in next two games I'dont see the point of him being here as the first team has gone backwards since he's been appointed. Baffling first 11 tonight :o
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I am a realist - something I recommend you consider trying out. If you genuinely believe that the problem is in the dug out rather than a lack of quality on the pitch then I can not help you.
This side aren't good enough to stay up without structural changes (such as having a true centre forward and a defensive midfielder - something i've been crying out for on her since Yacob left). Bilic didn't feel we needed a defensive midfielder and instead pushed to bring back a number of last season's loans - as much as I blame Dowling, that bit is on Bilic.
What the right manager could have done however was to keep us within touching distance ready for January where spending that bit extra would have made sense. The right appointment would also have helped us to avoid one of our worst ever points totals. At this rate, we are potentially going to go sub 20 points for the first time in the prem era. With the right managerial appointment, I atleast think that could have been avoided.
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It can - he also wanted more additions of quality in the summer.
Allardyce will be the same.
The common denominator throughout all of this is Luke Dowling. Again.
Agreed. Slav seemingly obsessed with getting Grant and Krov but he also wanted more quality players and he didn't want a large chunk of our budget being spent on Grady either
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Many thanks Sam. The worst run of home results in the club’s proud history. We all know the team isn’t good enough but the home form since this guy arrived has seriously deteriorated. I didn’t want him here and still don’t. So much for his defensive nous. Have never been so embarrassed by my beloved club.
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This side aren't good enough to stay up without structural changes (such as having a true centre forward and a defensive midfielder - something i've been crying out for on her since Yacob left). Bilic didn't feel we needed a defensive midfielder and instead pushed to bring back a number of last season's loans - as much as I blame Dowling, that bit is on Bilic.
What the right manager could have done however was to keep us within touching distance ready for January where spending that bit extra would have made sense. The right appointment would also have helped us to avoid one of our worst ever points totals. At this rate, we are potentially going to go sub 20 points for the first time in the prem era. With the right managerial appointment, I atleast think that could have been avoided.
This appears to be a long winded way of saying the team isn't good enough. Something I agree with, something that Bilic agreed with and something that no doubt Sam Allardyce also agrees with.
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Many thanks Sam. The worst run of home results in the club’s proud history. We all know the team isn’t good enough but the home form since this guy arrived has seriously deteriorated. I didn’t want him here and still don’t. So much for his defensive nous. Have never been so embarrassed by my beloved club.
And he played his part in our biggest embarrassment in our history 30 years ago too
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No BT interview?
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Amazed anyone still thinks Allardyce does the deals tbh. He'd have had 7 or 8 in by now if it was up to him.
And yet lots of our fans seem to think that Bilic did most of the deals when he was here.
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So just to be clear. The players recruited in the summer were Bilic's fault, but Sam has nothing at all to do with recruitment now and it's all Dowling?
Not aimed at you there Liam, cross posted. I agree with you that Dowling is the one fingers should be pointed at.
Parts of the strategy (such as his push to spend money on getting the old hand of Krov, Robinson, Diangana back together and his lack of recognition over a defensive midfielder) were partly on Bilic yes.
The failure to identify and negotiation new signings is on Dowling.
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I'm carrying both Bilic baby and Big Sam's baby by pointing that that it's unreasonable to expect any manager to keep this squad in the premiership and that the change in manger has seen us regress as the players preferred their old boss.
Bilic got 85% out of the squad and Big Sam is getting 70%; no manger gets 100% and we needed 150% to survive.
I preferred my old boss but i didn't down tools when he was replaced because A it's disrespectful and B i would have been sacked. Same should apply here if that's the case.
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And yet lots of our fans seem to think that Bilic did most of the deals when he was here.
Only a couple, Krov, Pereira and Ivanovic, all reported at the time ad people identified by Bilic.
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No BT interview?
Is he about to get his P45 :o
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This appears to be a long winded way of saying the team isn't good enough. Something I agree with, something that Bilic agreed with and something that no doubt Sam Allardyce also agrees with.
It's a bit more nuanced than that. Feel free to read it again.
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I preferred my old boss but i didn't down tools when he was replaced because A it's disrespectful and B i would have been sacked. Same should apply here if that's the case.
You can't sack players, this isn't a factory line, they are (supposedly) commodities. Allardyce will have to take some responsibility for not playing to the players strengths. Although I don't think Big Sam getting 70% out of this squad is particularly awful; it's what I would expect. What was disappointing tonight was his starting 11 he picked. Very naive.
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So just to be clear. The players recruited in the summer were Bilic's fault, but Sam has nothing at all to do with recruitment now and it's all Dowling?
Not aimed at you there Liam, cross posted. I agree with you that Dowling is the one fingers should be pointed at.
You're conflating choosing the targets and getting the deals over the line. It's not a crossed post as much as talking at crossed purposes.
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I'm carrying both Bilic baby and Big Sam's baby by pointing that that it's unreasonable to expect any manager to keep this squad in the premiership and that the change in manger has seen us regress as the players preferred their old boss.
Bilic got 85% out of the squad and Big Sam is getting 70%; no manger gets 100% and we needed 150% to survive.
I agree with most of what you say by 64%. Others by 32%. Some only 5%.
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So 17 goals conceded and 0 scored at the Hawthorns under big Sam. This lockdown has been tough but the Albion are making it 10 times worse.
No interview tonight, is he going to walk?
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Allardyce and his cowardly back room staff have failed to show for their media obligations. ******* cowards.
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So 17 goals conceded and 0 scored at the Hawthorns under big Sam. This lockdown has been tough but the Albion are making it 10 times worse.
No interview tonight, is he going to walk?
I could see it happening, a few days from the transfer window closing and no sign of any deals getting done.
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Allardyce and his cowardly back room staff have failed to show for their media obligations. F****** cowards.
Got the players locked in i believe.
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Matt Critchley on Twitter
It’s a lock in for West Brom. And not in a good way. Players and management staying in the dressing room for some, you’d imagine, harsh words. At the moment we’re told Sammy Lee will speak to media, not Allardyce.
20 mins later
Still no sign of Sam. Big or small
15 mins later
Still waiting for anyone from West Brom. We’ll now take comment from anybody called Sam
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So 17 goals conceded and 0 scored at the Hawthorns under big Sam. This lockdown has been tough but the Albion are making it 10 times worse.
No interview tonight, is he going to walk?
Possible he quits isn't it? Of course it won't make a blind bit of difference to our relegation. Just more shuffling chairs on the titanic.
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Parts of the strategy (such as his push to spend money on getting the old hand of Krov, Robinson, Diangana back together and his lack of recognition over a defensive midfielder) were partly on Bilic yes.
The failure to identify and negotiation new signings is on Dowling.
I don't have an issue with those signings though.
Robinson for £2m and getting Burke off the books seems good value for a player who can play wide and up top if needed.
Diangana was clearly excellent last season but off the boil this. I don't belive anyone thinks we should have turned him down.
Krov, a loan so cheap Forest can afford him.
I've no idea what goes on internally but if the money was there I refuse to belive Bilic wouldn't have signed more.
For me the issue is that promotion was a 2 year project. We got there a year early so the squad had massive issues even with the loans. The board wouldn't let us replace those loans and address those issues. Easy to say we should have got a DCM but if they meant starting the season with Hal as our first choice there'd have been uproar, especially if the DCM wasn't good enough.
There just wasn't enough money to do both sets of surgery on the squad. Villa had the same issue and were very very lucky their gamble has paid off.
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Matt Critchley on Twitter
It’s a lock in for West Brom. And not in a good way. Players and management staying in the dressing room for some, you’d imagine, harsh words. At the moment we’re told Sammy Lee will speak to media, not Allardyce.
20 mins later
Still no sign of Sam. Big or small
15 mins later
Still waiting for anyone from West Brom. We’ll now take comment from anybody called Sam
Throwing cups of tea in the dressing room for an hour and sending your assistant out to speak to the press is the definition of avoiding taking questions. Can't blame him - he's had the time on the training ground and must have run out of excuses to pretend he can get this team competitive in this league.
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
I'm reliably informed Sam Allardyce will be fulfilling his media duties, he will just be very late. Currently still locked in the dressing room in lengthy, frank conversation with players and staff. Sounds like there's a grilling going on. #WBA"
Good. The media can wait.
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Possible he quits isn't it? Of course it won't make a blind bit of difference to our relegation. Just more shuffling chairs on the titanic.
I think he will go. I expect to hear him back with his pals on Talksport soon revealing all about how he didnt realise how poor the squad was and he was given broken promises by Luke and Ken
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Allardyce and his cowardly back room staff have failed to show for their media obligations. ******* cowards.
Pretty sure he's just giving them a bullock king.
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In a way I almost hope he quits as those then in charge making the decisions (Dowling & Ken) would have nowhere to hide and they should be pushed. Fingers crossed Lai would sell up also.
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Got the players locked in i believe.
Hope the players are grilling him on that starting lineup.
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Throwing cups of tea in the dressing room for an hour and sending your assistant out to speak to the press is the definition of avoiding taking questions. Can't blame him - he's had the time on the training ground and must have run out of excuses to pretend he can get this team competitive in this league.
More likely Big Sam has ordered pie and chips for everyone from his favourite chippy in Sedgley and he’s not coming out in case they are delivered whilst he’s talking to the press!
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I don't have an issue with those signings though.
Robinson for £2m and getting Burke off the books seems good value for a player who can play wide and up top if needed.
Diangana was clearly excellent last season but off the boil this. I don't belive anyone thinks we should have turned him down.
Krov, a loan so cheap Forest can afford him.
I've no idea what goes on internally but if the money was there I refuse to belive Bilic wouldn't have signed more.
For me the issue is that promotion was a 2 year project. We got there a year early so the squad had massive issues even with the loans. The board wouldn't let us replace those loans and address those issues. Easy to say we should have got a DCM but if they meant starting the season with Hal as our first choice there'd have been uproar, especially if the DCM wasn't good enough.
There just wasn't enough money to do both sets of surgery on the squad. Villa had the same issue and were very very lucky their gamble has paid off.
Excellent summary. Although I would point out that Villa spent a fortune to build a decent squad and it still took them three windows with the same manager to do it; and a lot of luck last season to stay up. That is a world away from our Poundland strategy.
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
I'm reliably informed Sam Allardyce will be fulfilling his media duties, he will just be very late. Currently still locked in the dressing room in lengthy, frank conversation with players and staff. Sounds like there's a grilling going on. #WBA"
Good. The media can wait.
He has ensured he avoided the BT live broadcast interview and the morning papers journos. It's dodging scrutiny for a bloke who has always been a bit of a self promoter. Losing respect for him.
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Did anyone else notice before the game that Big Sam on BT remarked that he wanted a repeat performance of our effort at Maine Road?
That was not a good omen. It's difficult to criticise the players for lack of attention to detail when you don't know the ground the opposition play at.
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I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room.
I hope he’s giving them both barrels
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I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room.
I hope he’s giving them both barrels
It's the fourth time he's given them both barrels, fourth time lucky perhaps? I'd imagine it's like a scene from Mike Bassett, England Manager.
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
I'm reliably informed Sam Allardyce will be fulfilling his media duties, he will just be very late. Currently still locked in the dressing room in lengthy, frank conversation with players and staff. Sounds like there's a grilling going on. #WBA"
Good. The media can wait.
Grilling - I doubt it. By the look of Big Sam he fries most things!
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I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room.
I hope he’s giving them both barrels
He's as responsible as the players. If not more so.
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He has ensured he avoided the BT live broadcast interview and the morning papers journos. It's dodging scrutiny for a bloke who has always been a bit of a self promoter. Losing respect for him.
I think it's better that he gets the players sat down and told immediately while everything is fresh and means something to somebody, anybody!
These cowards would probably have showered and called an Uber each if he said "hang on lads i'll be back in 10 minutes to tell you all straight after speaking to BT Sport"
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I don't have an issue with those signings though.
Robinson for £2m and getting Burke off the books seems good value for a player who can play wide and up top if needed.
Diangana was clearly excellent last season but off the boil this. I don't belive anyone thinks we should have turned him down.
Krov, a loan so cheap Forest can afford him.
I've no idea what goes on internally but if the money was there I refuse to belive Bilic wouldn't have signed more.
For me the issue is that promotion was a 2 year project. We got there a year early so the squad had massive issues even with the loans. The board wouldn't let us replace those loans and address those issues. Easy to say we should have got a DCM but if they meant starting the season with Hal as our first choice there'd have been uproar, especially if the DCM wasn't good enough.
There just wasn't enough money to do both sets of surgery on the squad. Villa had the same issue and were very very lucky their gamble has paid off.
Excellent and spot on analysis.
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Grilling - I doubt it. By the look of Big Sam he fries most things!
That put a smile on my face.
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Excellent and spot on analysis.
seconded. thirded and fourthed. The criminal bit was the reaction by the executives when reality kicked in that we were out of our depth with no financial lifebelt.
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I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that dressing room.
I hope he’s giving them both barrels
Not aimed at you Liam, & I've never played sport at a decent level, but I have held some reasonably responsible management positions.
In my experience delivering or receiving both barrels tends to demotivate as opposed to the intended response.
Does the hairdryer treatment really improve sports players performance?
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You can't sack players, this isn't a factory line, they are (supposedly) commodities. Allardyce will have to take some responsibility for not playing to the players strengths. Although I don't think Big Sam getting 70% out of this squad is particularly awful; it's what I would expect. What was disappointing tonight was his starting 11 he picked. Very naive.
Well you should be able to sack players it's a job and they ain't doing theirs!
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So just to be clear. The players recruited in the summer were Bilic's fault, but Sam has nothing at all to do with recruitment now and it's all Dowling?
Not aimed at you there Liam, cross posted. I agree with you that Dowling is the one fingers should be pointed at.
I think there’s a joint responsibility in the summer. Bilic hung his hat on the wrong horses. It is clear though that bilic wanted more work done on this squad and he never got his wish and we were subsequently under prepared. Dowling carries the can for that.
I am not necessarily sure that Bilic is the manager who can squeeze the maximum from resources - he’s very much built on momentum- as such he really required the additional investment in the summer. When it wasn’t forthcoming he was pretty much doomed.
Allardyce also finds himself in the position of wanting to improve the squad and he’s not going to get his wish either.
What a horrible crossroad.
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Not aimed at you Liam, & I've never played sport at a decent level, but I have held some reasonably responsible management positions.
In my experience delivering or receiving both barrels tends to demotivate as opposed to the intended response.
Does the hairdryer treatment really improve sports players performance?
Not necessarily - I think it’s productive for both the players and the management staff to air their grievances within the walls of the dressing room. Constructive criticism in such formats is excellent.
It loses its touch when its dished out every week.
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I think there’s a joint responsibility in the summer. Bilic hung his hat on the wrong horses. It is clear though that bilic wanted more work done on this squad and he never got his wish and we were subsequently under prepared. Dowling carries the can for that.
I am not necessarily sure that Bilic is the manager who can squeeze the maximum from resources - he’s very much built on momentum- as such he really required the additional investment in the summer. When it wasn’t forthcoming he was pretty much doomed.
Allardyce also finds himself in the position of wanting to improve the squad and he’s not going to get his wish either.
What a horrible crossroad.
We shouldn’t be at this crossroads, once they decided to sack Bilic the club should have employed a head coach with a view to next season in the championship.
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We shouldn’t be at this crossroads, once they decided to sack Bilic the club should have employed a head coach with a view to next season in the championship.
If they were going to do that they just should have kept bilic and appointed someone new in the summer. They gambled on the big sam effect keeping us up
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We shouldn’t be at this crossroads, once they decided to sack Bilic the club should have employed a head coach with a view to next season in the championship.
It’s a fair point you’ve made.
Dowling spoke before about learning the lessons of our previous relegations but the reality is that we’ve learned **** all.
I thought Albion59 summed up where we are pretty well. We’re approaching our DarrenMoore moment again.
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If they were going to do that they just should have kept bilic and appointed someone new in the summer. They gambled on the big sam effect keeping us up
In my opinion it was a gamble that was destined to fail.
My preference would have been to keep Bilic, that said the relationship between him and the club was long gone.
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Not necessarily - I think it’s productive for both the players and the management staff to air their grievances within the walls of the dressing room. Constructive criticism in such formats is excellent.
It loses its touch when its dished out every week.
Yes, I get that, tends to be destructive though when the manger then rips the players to bits in public.
Just hope that doesn't happen tonight.
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I think there’s a joint responsibility in the summer. Bilic hung his hat on the wrong horses. It is clear though that bilic wanted more work done on this squad and he never got his wish and we were subsequently under prepared. Dowling carries the can for that. I am not necessarily sure that Bilic is the manager who can squeeze the maximum from resources - he’s very much built on momentum- as such he really required the additional investment in the summer. When it wasn’t forthcoming he was pretty much doomed.
Allardyce also finds himself in the position of wanting to improve the squad and he’s not going to get his wish either.
What a horrible crossroad.
I wouldn't blame Dowling for being asked to over perform on a tiny budget. If he was given another £40m I'm sure we could have got in better quality players sooner and been in an entirely different scenario. As it stands we will get relegated and lose £100m instead.
All managers make mistakes, some of them a lot more than others. No manager gets 100% out of the team or gets every transfer signing right. Overall Bilic got more out of the squad than Big Sam, who I still think is doing okay in general terms (that's about as positive as I can put it), although the continuous humiliating home results are demoralising.
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It’s a fair point you’ve made.
Dowling spoke before about learning the lessons of our previous relegations but the reality is that we’ve learned **** all.
I thought Albion59 summed up where we are pretty well. We’re approaching our DarrenMoore moment again.
It feels like we're doing an even worse job than previous seasons. Replacing the manager whose trademark style is as far away as suitable for the squad as possible and then not backing him in the window.
Now it looks like relegation is unavoidable so we'll ditch Sam and we've just wasted money and time this year.
I think you're both right, can see Sam being sacked or quitting before the season is out.
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Allardyce & players had a 1 hour meeting post match tonight, in dressing room, to ‘clear the air’ & ‘get it sorted, not let it linger’. He says the desire is there, they’re doing what he asks or them but making mistakes. And he can’t work it out. Says they need 2 players minimum
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It’s a fair point you’ve made.
Dowling spoke before about learning the lessons of our previous relegations but the reality is that we’ve learned **** all.
I thought Albion59 summed up where we are pretty well. We’re approaching our DarrenMoore moment again.
Step up Jimmy Mozza.
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Masi said he's just finished getting into them. On way to do media now.
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Step up Jimmy Mozza.
Yep and I reckon Brunty will come in to assist him
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Matt Critchley
@MattCritchley1
We have a Sam.
“Sorry to keep you lads but I had more important things to do"
Fair enough
Allardyce apologised to fans for the performance on WBA club TV
“You can’t tell me about all that play to the whistle stuff. That’s nonsense. The assistant referee made a mistake, but that was just one mistake. We made lots more than that.
“I can accept defeat but I can’t accept defeat like that. It wasn’t Man City and their brilliant goals it was us and our defending.
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Yep and I reckon Brunty will come in to assist him
I'd have more faith with boilerman in charge; same level of managerial experience.
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I'd have more faith with boilerman in charge; same level of managerial experience.
We couldn't afford his wages....
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Can only imagine how ugly it might have gotten had we had full crowds in the last few home games
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He’s still begging for two new additions.
I think he’s being polite asking for two as we need three at a minimum.
Centre half, central midfielder and a forward.
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Can only imagine how ugly it might have gotten had we had full crowds in the last few home games
Imagine if Lai showed his face this season.
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Imagine if Lai showed his face this season.
He would have probably been there tonight
Always seemed to make an appearance when the big boys turned up
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I'm with Baggies on this the tighter the budget the more focussed and structured everything has to be in terms of recruitment. Some of the problem was Bilic a) Getting the Band back together and b) Tactically throwing the band under the bus.
If we had got everything spot on we might be 5 to 6 points better off and be in with a shout of survival.
I blame Dowling for recruitment to a point. He does not determine the finances available that is the CEO and if you want deficit financing (and most fans seem to expect that) the ownership. Everything else after that is just the reality of the situation.
I absolute blame Dowling for Allardyce. Setting aside my personal animosity toward Allardyce this squad and him were never going to be a happy marriage and pinning our hopes on getting players in during January with very limited funds to make any significant difference was frankly bordering on the delusional.
We have just set fire to a big bag of money for no good reason.
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He’s still begging for two new additions.
I think he’s being polite asking for two as we need three at a minimum.
Centre half, central midfielder and a forward.
I was hoping it was a typo and he was asking for 20.
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He would have probably been there tonight
Always seemed to make an appearance when the big boys turned up
Perhaps thats where our players get their shirt swopping passion from.
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Just watched his post match interview.
I'm starting to feel sorry for the guy, I think he's in way over his head with how bad we are.
He felt that we had started to turn a corner with the Wolves win and the decent effort against West Ham. Then we go and defend like that.
He mentioned he has no idea why we are so awful at home
It makes zero sense with empty grounds...
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Maybe he should question why we went 4 at the back and dropped Bartley?
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Can only imagine how ugly it might have gotten had we had full crowds in the last few home games
It wouldn’t have got this bad with the fans in the ground.
If this pandemic has proven anything, it’s that Albion fans are one of the better sets of fans to play in front of and that when we aren’t there, our home form goes to pot and we suffer 4 and 5 goal thrashings in multiple occasions.
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I thought he was supposed to improve us? Wasn’t his strength supposed to be organizing a defence?
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The players are an embarrassment and it’s not necessarily Sam’s fault but our home record since he took over, must be the worst in modern memory for a new manager.
3-0
5-0
4-0
5-0
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Maybe he should question why we went 4 at the back and dropped Bartley?
What about Gallagher (our "workaholic" ) not even bought on as a Sub??? What is going on at this Club. Bartley was our man of the match 2 weeks ago and dropped????? Something is wrong here...the "poison" throughout the place??
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The players are an embarrassment and it’s not necessarily Sam’s fault but our home record since he took over, must be the worst in modern memory for a new manager.
3-0
5-0
4-0
5-0
If a managers job is to organise the team and motivate players he has so far failed dismally. Regardless
However, can't be replaced so can only hope he finds a way. Not necessarily to keep us up, but just to leave the season behind with some semblance of pride intact. Can't imagine he really wants to be here?
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If a managers job is to organise the team and motivate players he has so far failed dismally. Regardless
However, can't be replaced so can only hope he finds a way. Not necessarily to keep us up, but just to leave the season behind with some semblance of pride intact. Can't imagine he really wants to be here?
The players don’t seem to have any pride whatsoever, so I can’t see how they are going to do anything worthy of instilling any in us fans. A more pathetic bunch I haven’t ever seen. Sam is struggling, if he persists with that same eleven, particularly Sawyers and Furlong in the next few games then I will be extremely concerned.
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What about Gallagher (our "workaholic" ) not even bought on as a Sub??? What is going on at this Club. Bartley was our man of the match 2 weeks ago and dropped????? Something is wrong here...the "poison" throughout the place??
Big Sam’s team selection was awful. No Button, Grosicki, Bartley or Gallagher. All should have started. That back four and keeper he picked was horrendous.
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We are better away from home under Allardyce than we were under Bilic but the home form is obviously a major concern.
Luckily we have to play most of the teams around us away (only Fulham and Newcastle at home I think), so we may well pick up a few more wins and some draws. It won't be enough to keep us up unless we get a real Dm, a centre forward and a centre half in; and even then it would still take a miracle.
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Been here long enough so he should know his best 11, which consists of Sawyer's and Livermore as first choice midfield. Think its lazy coaching from Allardyce as he relying on our more experienced players hence Phillips introduction as a Sub last night and giving him the armband when Livermore was suspended. Scratching my head at the way he set us up at the back, why tinker with it when we seemed to be more solid?
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Taking the relative merits of Bilic nd Allardyce out of the picture.
You have a squad built around the tactics and prejudices of Manager A and you sack him and bring in Manager B who has a very different set of tactics and prejudices but there is no money to change the squad to such an extent that would meet Manager B's tactics and prejudices.
So where have we got other than spending what little money there is on sacking Manager A and hiring Manager B?
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As I've said on the next match thread, six points form the next two games is vital. Absolutely vital.
Worst defensive record - as in goals shipped - since 1935 (Aston Villa) - BBC website.
While I don't really want to knock our manager and while I'm not saying Bilic would have kept us up ... something is dramatically wrong in our set up that we have shipped 22 (?) since he came in.
NJS comments are spot on.
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Taking the relative merits of Bilic nd Allardyce out of the picture.
You have a squad built around the tactics and prejudices of Manager A and you sack him and bring in Manager B who has a very different set of tactics and prejudices but there is no money to change the squad to such an extent that would meet Manager B's tactics and prejudices.
So where have we got other than spending what little money there is on sacking Manager A and hiring Manager B?
This is the nail on the head and typical Albion since Dowling has been DoF including signings we didn't need. Maybe the relationship with Bilic was so bad that it had to be ended but to get in a replacement in SA who is literally the polar opposite with little resources to change the squad was just stupid, we've seen the response the players have given - pretty much given up.
This is looking every bit as bad as Pardew so far..............and that was baaaaaaad!!
Lai Out, Dowling out and let's wait until SA walks which I don't think will be too far past March at the latest.
When does the EFL fixture list come out?
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Having seen his post match interview I'd have loved to have been in that dressing room to hear what he thinks of whom followed by the back and forth. It would have made for much better entertainment than the game at any rate.
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Allardyce's league record since he took over is:
W1 D1 L5 F5 A22
Bilic's last 7 results were:
W1 D1 L5 F4 A12
We only conceded more than 2 goals in a game once (Palace) in Bilic's last 7 games. In 3 of them we only let in 1 goal and we also got our only clean sheet so far (Sheff Utd).
So although the points accrued are the same for both, we have been significantly worse defensively under Allardyce. Despite this, many Albion fans are giving him a free pass for some reason. It's hard to imagine that any other incoming manager would get the same easy ride that he's getting.
I know he hasn't had much chance to shape the squad in his image yet (and it looks like we won't bring enough players in to do that), but remember Dowling's words when Allardyce joined:
"Sam looked at the squad before he came here and I’m sure if he felt there needed to be massive changes he wouldn’t be here now. Sam believes there is something here to work with which gives us amazing confidence as a club".
The lack of training time excuse has now gone, so all that seems to be left is new signings or bust, because there's seemingly nothing Allardyce can do to improve the current squad. Indeed, he's managed to make our defending much worse, when defensive organisation is supposed to be his key strength.
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It's actually strange - we look half decent when we press, in fact in the first minute we did it a couple of times and regained possession, as well as later in the first half. Again, we created chances against Wolves and West Ham when we won the ball high up the pitch, and yet our default is to sit deep and heap pressure onto our defence.
Kudos to Sam for implementing the press, as it wasn't seen much at all under Bilic, but it does make you wonder why we don't do it more.
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It's actually strange - we look half decent when we press, in fact in the first minute we did it a couple of times and regained possession, as well as later in the first half. Again, we created chances against Wolves and West Ham when we won the ball high up the pitch, and yet our default is to sit deep and heap pressure onto our defence.
Kudos to Sam for implementing the press, as it wasn't seen much at all under Bilic, but it does make you wonder why we don't do it more.
Let one goal in and they gave up.
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There is organization (which we need) but as others have said there is mentality. I haven’t seen a side collapse so easily when they go behind. Someone last night said we have let in 5 goals 4 times this season already..The other strange assumption is we can now just turn it on against Fulham and Sheff Utd. Where will this magical form come from to beat either of them? Having seen a little of Fulham they look a decent side to me.
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I think Big Sam is caught in two minds at the moment.
He is known for getting teams organised and hard to beat, get that right then build. However i know from a seminar i did where he was guest speaker and from a interview he does on BT - State of the Game, that he hates his reputation as a defensive and direct, he said every club he has been at he has played a different way depending on the bulk of the squads abilities.
He said his last job (the seminar was before he took the Albion job) was Everton, he said they were a big club, in free fall, conceding loads and he sorted them out and got them to 8th place finish yet he was hounded for being defensive and boring instead of praised for sorting them out.
I wonder if he has come to us to try and change the general perception about him, he is saying all the right things about keeping clean sheets, tightening up, etc yet at the moment the evidence doesnt back that up, since the Arsenal game he has nearly four weeks of pretty regular training time and we seem to of got worse defensively (we wasnt great under Bilic)
I think somebody who is as experienced as Big Sam would of watched our games this season before he got the job, he would of seen we started to improve defensively towards the end of Bilic era (Palace game aside) when we had gone mainly back to 3 at the back, yet he seems to keep trying 4 at the back when its clear we have full backs who cant actually defend.
I dont think the players are good enough which is the main issue and you cant coach individual errors, but we dont just not seem organised, we just look lost, nobody seems to be in the correct position during the game and i would of thought that would be the most basic first thing he would work on, yet he plays a formation where you only really have two players defending because Furlong and Gibbs are a waste of time defensively, and we are getting worse.
When we went up i had hoped we would take the game to teams but it became apparent pretty quick that our attacking threat was weak in this league, Diangana with the exception of a great goal v Everton has been anonymous, Grant although i think is played out of position has offered nothing and misses a good chance nearly every game, Robinson tries hard but doesnt really ever offer a goal threat, Pereira hasnt hit the heights he is capable of but is still out best player and biggest threat, i think we have only scored more than one goal in three league matches out twenty so it shows we cant rely on trying to outscore teams.
Big Sam would of known this, so if you know your attack isnt going to get many goals, i know you have to offer a threat but first and foremost, you make yourself hard to beat, yet we look so lost and unorganised, we played Man City last night and had our most attacking line up of the season playing which just doesnt usually happen under Allardyce teams.
I do think last night maybe there was an element of planning for the next two games (which in itself is poor, i always think you should try and get points) but it backfired with how badly we collapsed.
Despite all the above, i still have some faith in Big Sam as long as he is backed with players he wants, otherwise we shouldnt of appointed him, he has done his bit shifting Austin, Bond, Krovinovic and Harpers wages off the bill as well as another couple by the sounds of it, so he should be given some support.
I have no issue with him calling the players out in public either, if they lose the odd game heavily so be it, but they are embarrassing themselves every game at home, think people can accept they are not good enough but a few were just coasting and not giving 100% which there is no excuse for so i am glad he has his say as he must be embarrassed too.
There is still nearly half a season left, it dont look great but we can still stay up, we firstly have to back him with a few new players he wants, and secondly, Allardyce needs to go back to doing what he does best right, get us organised.
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I know he hasn't had much chance to shape the squad in his image yet
Oh, I don't know. A few of them look like they could do with shedding a few kilos.
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Sam said it himself on the website, we lack discipline and organisation. We have done all year and even more so in his time here. We seem to have no shape. These are basic things for supposedly top tier (ha ha) footballers. The players are clearly not buying into him and his methods.
I hope he can build a system and shape which will at least leave the next guy (coming soon i reckon) something to build on.
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Allardyce is the one pairing Sawyers & Livermore together.
Bilic did it very early on in the opening 3 or 4 games then never again once Gallagher was up to speed.
SA has chosen to loan Harper to BC and ignore the fit again Field.
He's still got enough options to leave out Sawyers / Livermore and has also had 27 days of the transfer window to address that area.
Bloody pointless signing a new striker if you've still got that midfield.
I'm really starting to question his judgement and whether he's over the hill as a Football Manager.
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I'm really starting to question his judgement and whether he's over the hill as a Football Manager.
He clearly didn't have a clue what he was doing yesterday with that starting eleven. His post-match interview also demonstrated that he hasn't learnt much. He couldn't understand why we were so easy to play against. Yet it him that took Button and Bartley out of the team, brought Furlong back into right back, persisted with Gibbs at left back and failed to introduce Gallagher. As soon as I saw our team yesterday I knew we were going to get hammered again.
He also thought that Man City play at Maine Road!
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He also thought that Man City play at Maine Road!
I'm less bothered how good he is at pub quiz questions and more about his assessment of players and tactics.
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I really hope we sign at least one midfielder that can tackle, I keep reading we are in for this striker then that striker, not a mention of a decent midfielder, without which you could play Messi up front and he would struggle.
I also think it was a mistake dropping Button after the Wolves game, Johnstone not only has a poor presence in his area, but concedes far to many goals from range surely that many can't all be unstoppable. He doesn't even move for most of them.
I'm still waiting for he 'big Sam' effect to kick in but suspect it may never happen with this lot recruiting.
3 loan signings at the death on Monday all has beens will sign our fate, only hope we have no obligation to buy.
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I really hope we sign at least one midfielder that can tackle, I keep reading we are in for this striker then that striker, not a mention of a decent midfielder, without which you could play Messi up front and he would struggle.
I also think it was a mistake dropping Button after the Wolves game, Johnstone not only has a poor presence in his area, but concedes far to many goals from range surely that many can't all be unstoppable. He doesn't even move for most of them.
I'm still waiting for he 'big Sam' effect to kick in but suspect it may never happen with this lot recruiting.
3 loan signings at the death on Monday all has beens will sign our fate, only hope we have no obligation to buy.
We've been strongly linked with a Defensive Midfielder today by the ever reliable John Percy.
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We've been strongly linked with a Defensive Midfielder today by the ever reliable John Percy.
link please
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link please
It's just a tweet, story is behind the Telegraph paywall. He's also got a thread on here.
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It's just a tweet, story is behind the Telegraph paywall. He's also got a thread on here.
ok, thanks anyway
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Regardless of who we sign, they will hardly have any impact on our next two games. Which is the last real hope.
I didn't get that starting 11 at all last night. Maybe he's trying to prove a point to the board that we need new additions and fast. But then why keep them in the dressing room for over an hour. He knows they are rubbish so what's he trying achieve .
I'm starting to feel that he has lost the plot . I'd be surprised if he's still here at the end of next month.
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Sam A is not going anywhere. Why do people keep posting this stuff? this is his step back into management and although it looks tough he is going to stay with it. if he left now he would not get another deal like this one.
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........if he left now he would not get another deal like this one.
Lucky Sam ;D .
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Sam A is not going anywhere. Why do people keep posting this stuff? this is his step back into management and although it looks tough he is going to stay with it. if he left now he would not get another deal like this one.
He's not yet got relegation on his CV, so might want to walk soon if results don't turn around. Plus, he must be pretty miserable, with how terrible everything is going. I'd be surprised if he did quit, but there is chance, just like the board might sack him as well if we lose our next 4/5 games.
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He's not yet got relegation on his CV, so might want to walk soon if results don't turn around. Plus, he must be pretty miserable, with how terrible everything is going. I'd be surprised if he did quit, but there is chance, just like the board might sack him as well if we lose our next 4/5 games.
Appointing him seems pointless, to then sack him beyond pointless.
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We have not become Watford yet, cant see us sacking Sam. He wont walk either.
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Appointing him seems pointless, to then sack him beyond pointless.
I agree Oldbury but that's the way our football club is run, no patience, strategy or realism allowed. Just chuck the manager under the bus with a meagre budget and pull the trigger when a miracle doesn't transpire.
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How.much longer do you wan to give Allardyce in this job?
The actual "football" we are playing has regressed than what we had under Bilic.
This match looks like a lower league v top flight FA Cup tie.
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Allardyce has made us worse in every respect - we are shipping goals for fun and have no attacking intent or plan whatsoever. This is the 8th league game that he's been in charge for, he should have been able to improve us in some way during that time, but no.
If the Board wanted to make such a big change in managerial styles/tactics, the time to do it was in the close season. Doing it in December and then not being prepared to sign more than 3 players during the window (it seems), is too stupid for words.
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I will be amazed if he is here much longer.
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We definately look worse under SA, looks very unlikely he can improve them even with a couple of new players. Really reminds me of Pardew when the players just downed tools. Embarrassing
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We definately look worse under SA, looks very unlikely he can improve them even with a couple of new players. Really reminds me of Pardew when the players just downed tools. Embarrassing
It’s much worse than under Pardew. Then we had a run of good performances at Stoke and Everton when we tried to play football but just lacked a striker who could score. Now we are a complete shambles.
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Dreadful. I’m starting to see why Everton didn’t want him ect. Dreadful
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Allardyce can take some credit for the second half for sure, as I am sure he will try to.
However if he does, he needs to take complete responsibility for the first half, as well as the fact that we should (not could) have been totally out of it by HT.
A manager influences the team in two ways - by teaching them a system to play in, and by motivating them to buy into it. In 8 league games we have seen nothing resembling a system, and in virtually every game I find myself asking what formation we are actually playing in. In 8 league games we have also seen almost no evidence that the players are motivated to buy in and work for him.
In any other industry a manager that had achieved nothing but disarray and demotivation in their first two months on the job would not be being given the benefit of the doubt. They would be booted out or redeployed.
Allardyce is out of excuses. He has provided not a shred of evidence at all to suggest he can keep us up, and there is no chance of him sticking around to clear up his mess. It would best for everyone if he moves on now and we can start afresh, building towards the likelihood of the Championship.
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Not happy with Sam's team selection for Fulham 5 at back against team that we should be going at was clearly a mistake. Compounds his initial screw up by substition of a young defender which will knock his confidence. Why he still plays Livermore in midfield is a head scratcher.
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It was poor with Bilic, it has continued to be poor with Allardyce.
However as poor as Allardyce has been, he was 20 minutes from having got as many points as Bilic, in less games. Something he can still achieve on Tuesday potentially. With players who some say have downed tools for him.
The Allardyce play doesn’t look like it’s going to work, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth rolling the dice.
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Roll the dice yes... but not towards this fella!
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I don't know why we had to wait until the second half to get going. Though full marks for starting to change things as early as 25 mins, even if it was a disappointment for OShea (albeit the situation was far too serious to fret over the feelings of individual players).
I didn't think I was looking at the same team after half time. SA says we started to play more simple. To me the obvious change was that we played further up the pitch, and so got numbers forward to put Fulham under some serious pressure, from which we created a fair number of chances and 2 goals. I don't know why managers don't see that if you drop deep, you hand the midfield to the opposition who can then mount one attack after another, whilst we can hardly cross the halfway line. Fulham could easily have killed us off by half time.
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I don't know why we had to wait until the second half to get going. Though full marks for starting to change things as early as 25 mins, even if it was a disappointment for OShea (albeit the situation was far too serious to fret over the feelings of individual players).
I didn't think I was looking at the same team after half time. SA says we started to play more simple. To me the obvious change was that we played further up the pitch, and so got numbers forward to put Fulham under some serious pressure, from which we created a fair number of chances and 2 goals. I don't know why managers don't see that if you drop deep, you hand the midfield to the opposition who can then mount one attack after another, whilst we can hardly cross the halfway line. Fulham could easily have killed us off by half time.
Agreed - there was no tactical success in our point vs Fulham. We should have been at least 3 down at half time
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The first half had me absolutely calling for SA's head but I take it back - there's so much going on with the team's confidence right now; truly appalling. Sam totally switched things around - a Leeds supporting mate of mine texted me saying 'how has he managed to replace the whole squad at half time?' As much as I was a fan of Bilic he never seemed to be able to switch things around when needed...
I know we really could have done with the three points, but I can accept relegation if we play like that second half for the rest of the season.
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The ability levels didn't change but the attitudes did. Dion Dublin called out everything that is wrong within the team in his first 45 mins commentating on us. None of it was about ability. It's all in their head.
Soon as we equalised they were full of running, winning 50/50s. Stopped lashing the ball away because they are scared, they wanted the ball instead of hiding like rats.
Due to the players cowardly first half Sam had to show our hand by half time to make 2 subs to give us a chance to get back in the game which meant we couldn't counter their 2 subs late on in the game.
No one would deny the squad is amongst the bottom 5/6 squads of terms of ability in the PL but we need to engage in the physical aspect of the game, running and tackling before we get to talking about ability. The squad may have always gone down even if with heads screwed on but we would never have let in 5 against Palace/Leeds etc if they remained professional every game which is the least they could do for 30k pw+
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I really liked having Bilic as our manger and shared many of the fears about Allardyce. But of course its no coincidence that he's been so successful over the years and also became England manager. He may be many things, but he certainly is a very professional football manager.
I've been impressed with his transfer activity so far. Surely in our position; Austin, Harper, Krovinovic, Grosicki, Cipre are not fit for a Prem league battle. And the targets he's had, Choudary, Benteke, Lingard, Maitland-Niles, Rose were all sensible targets. With our limited funds and terrible position; Snodgrass and Diagne were an upgrade on what we have and a defensive midfielder will surely also follow.
It all feels much too late and yesterday was probably our last chance. But its better to go down fighting than slide to record low points, losing every week. Any players left next season if we went down in free-fall would be permanently damaged. So fight on Big Sam and keep doing your best!
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But its better to go down fighting than slide to record low points, losing every week. Any players left next season if went down in free-fall would be permanently damaged. So fight on Big Sam and keep doing your best!
100%
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The ability levels didn't change but the attitudes did. Dion Dublin called out everything that is wrong within the team in his first 45 mins commentating on us. None of it was about ability. It's all in their head.
Soon as we equalised they were full of running, winning 50/50s. Stopped lashing the ball away because they are scared, they wanted the ball instead of hiding like rats.
Due to the players cowardly first half Sam had to show our hand by half time to make 2 subs to give us a chance to get back in the game which meant we couldn't counter their 2 subs late on in the game.
No one would deny the squad is amongst the bottom 5/6 squads of terms of ability in the PL but we need to engage in the physical aspect of the game, running and tackling before we get to talking about ability. The squad may have always gone down even if with heads screwed on but we would never have let in 5 against Palace/Leeds etc if they remained professional every game which is the least they could do for 30k pw+
I couldn't see the players were giving any less effort in the first half. We just got the tactics wrong. We were playing far too deep, allowing Fulham to take control of the midfield and to set up one attack after another. The possession stats tell you everything. Massively in Fulham's favour first half, then changed after half time.
Who was responsible? Is it the players who just decide to play deep first half and then get forward second? Its probably the manager. Well done SA for changing it, but my question is why were we playing deep to start with.
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Fair play Alex but I saw massive increase in work rate from the second the 2nd half kicked off. I genuinely don't believe Sam Allardyce told them to sit deep against Fulham but that's obviously your right to disagree.
They were just half soaked as usual IMO. I think they had a rocket at half time coupled with the introduction of a big striker and they started to realise Fulham ain't nothing special
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The first half had me absolutely calling for SA's head but I take it back - there's so much going on with the team's confidence right now; truly appalling. Sam totally switched things around - a Leeds supporting mate of mine texted me saying 'how has he managed to replace the whole squad at half time?' As much as I was a fan of Bilic he never seemed to be able to switch things around when needed...
I know we really could have done with the three points, but I can accept relegation if we play like that second half for the rest of the season.
Interesting post and I share many of the views you express. However we cannot overlook that the manager got the tactics completely wrong in the first half, a half that was a new low given the opposition. Things certainly improved second half but it’s about taking that into the next game now. I don’t have a high confidence that we will do so.
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Fair play Alex but I saw massive increase in work rate from the second the 2nd half kicked off. I genuinely don't believe Sam Allardyce told them to sit deep against Fulham but that's obviously your right to disagree.
They were just half soaked as usual IMO. I think they had a rocket at half time coupled with the introduction of a big striker and they started to realise Fulham ain't nothing special
Wasn't BS trying to reprise the lucky draw we had against Livermore? He was lucky again as in both first halves we should have been 3 down but for bad shooting and the intervention of the woodwork. I can't believe that the team went out on the pitch in the first half and of their own volition decided to sit back hoof the ball to a single attacker and take a pounding.
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Wasn't BS trying to reprise the lucky draw we had against Livermore? He was lucky again as in both first halves we should have been 3 down but for bad shooting and the intervention of the woodwork. I can't believe that the team went out on the pitch in the first half and of their own volition decided to sit back hoof the ball to a single attacker and take a pounding.
I could they looked terrified as they do most games until the 2nd half. Little bit of belief and took the lead and looked a different team.
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Pity he didn't he give them belief before the game started.
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Pity he didn't he give them belief before the game started.
Bilic couldn't give them that from the restart. Shame we persevered with him.
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Sam's never been relegated tag has gone now
Trust us to be the club to break his record
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Sam's never been relegated tag has gone now
Trust us to be the club to break his record
I believe he will be gone before the end of the season.
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I believe he will be gone before the end of the season.
I hope he is here until we are official. I want this to be his last rescue mission.
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We need to get rid and start building for the championship should have gone after the Leeds Arsenal week debacle.
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Just a waste of everyone's time to persist with SA as a short term fix when we already need to rebuild ready for another EFL promotion push next season. What are we doing as a club anymore? Pathetic and frustrating
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Just a waste of everyone's time to persist with SA as a short term fix when we already need to rebuild ready for another EFL promotion push next season. What are we doing as a club anymore? Pathetic and frustrating
The fact Allardyce was appointed in the first place shows how inept the club have become.
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Need to get someone else lined up for next season now, hopefully this is our last stint on the outdated British merry-go-round but I said that after Pardew.
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The issue is if we are going to get sold there’s no point in getting rid. I’d much rather he stay, new owners come in and they start making decisions.
Frankly I don’t want any of the current clowns choosing the tea lady. Although they’ve probably fired her.
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I think unless we are within 5 points of safety by the end of February (after the Brighton game) i think Big Sam will leave, probably some statement about mutual consent which i would think would be right as neither party would want to carry on.
There are a lot of points still to play for but we need the Allardyce survivial magic to start working now and to put together a run of form in February that is champions league form.
I dont see that happening as we dont seem to really be improving, i dont blame Big Sam, i dont think he has really done that much to improve the current players but other than that he has inherited a group of players that dont really even have the basic credentials he seems to look for.
He would of needed six or seven players start of january to put his own stamp on it, that was never going to happen and that combined with the complete opppsite styles of our squad to his preferred type of player just makes the appointment so bizarre.
The only way i can see us having a chance is getting probably 12 points out the next 15, get some momentum and belief for the last quarter of the season but i just dont see it happening.
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Just a waste of everyone's time to persist with SA as a short term fix when we already need to rebuild ready for another EFL promotion push next season. What are we doing as a club anymore? Pathetic and frustrating
We are going nowhere as a club, as we have decided not to give managers any time to build any lasting foundations and have placed entirely unrealistic expectations on them. Deservedly we will be marooned in the championship and bleed dry of what money is left. The posters on here moaning about performances and results in the second half of the championship last season - how unreasonable it was that we got only got 82 points instead of 100 points and couldn't keep demolishing the opposition with show stopping performances will be in for a rude awakening.
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Bilic couldn't give them that from the restart. Shame we persevered with him.
Allardyce's league record since he took over is now:
W1 D2 L5 F7 A24
Bilic's last 8 results were:
W1 D2 L5 F5 A13
There was much to criticise Bilic for, and I did a fair bit of it myself, so it's no great surprise that the Board rolled the dice. What I can't go along with are suggestions that Allardyce has made a better fist of things so far than Bilic did, because he really hasn't. I'm comparing his record with Bilic's last 8 games because the squad was more or less the same for both, which makes for a reasonable comparison in my book.
Whether Allardyce was the right person to bring in remains to be seen, but he's very far from covered himself in glory up to now. Whilst I would prefer Bilic to be here over Allardyce, I'm not hankering for Bilic to come back as such, even though his final results indicate that things were improving defensively up until the point that he left. I just feel that we could have replaced him with someone who had a more positive style of play than Allardyce who'd stand a better chance of getting more out of the existing players.
When managers like Allardyce and Pulis aren't getting results, they really don't have any other mitigating factors. At least Bilic's tactics primarily involved wanting to have a good amount of possession and trying to get forward with purpose.
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The only way our current situation makes any sense is if Allardyce stays on for next season.
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Allardyce's league record since he took over is now:
W1 D2 L5 F7 A24
Bilic's last 8 results were:
W1 D2 L5 F5 A13
There was much to criticise Bilic for, and I did a fair bit of it myself, so it's no great surprise that the Board rolled the dice. What I can't go along with are suggestions that Allardyce has made a better fist of things so far than Bilic did, because he really hasn't. I'm comparing his record with Bilic's last 8 games because the squad was more or less the same for both, which makes for a reasonable comparison in my book.
Whether Allardyce was the right person to bring in remains to be seen, but he's very far from covered himself in glory up to now. Whilst I would prefer Bilic to be here over Allardyce, I'm not hankering for Bilic to come back as such, even though his final results indicate that things were improving defensively up until the point that he left. I just feel that we could have replaced him with someone who had a more positive style of play than Allardyce who'd stand a better chance of getting more out of the existing players.
When managers like Allardyce and Pulis aren't getting results, they really don't have any other mitigating factors. At least Bilic's tactics primarily involved wanting to have a good amount of possession and trying to get forward with purpose.
Shame about the other 5 games... :-X
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Allardyce's league record since he took over is now:
W1 D2 L5 F7 A24
Bilic's last 8 results were:
W1 D2 L5 F5 A13
There was much to criticise Bilic for, and I did a fair bit of it myself, so it's no great surprise that the Board rolled the dice. What I can't go along with are suggestions that Allardyce has made a better fist of things so far than Bilic did, because he really hasn't. I'm comparing his record with Bilic's last 8 games because the squad was more or less the same for both, which makes for a reasonable comparison in my book.
Whether Allardyce was the right person to bring in remains to be seen, but he's very far from covered himself in glory up to now. Whilst I would prefer Bilic to be here over Allardyce, I'm not hankering for Bilic to come back as such, even though his final results indicate that things were improving defensively up until the point that he left. I just feel that we could have replaced him with someone who had a more positive style of play than Allardyce who'd stand a better chance of getting more out of the existing players.
When managers like Allardyce and Pulis aren't getting results, they really don't have any other mitigating factors. At least Bilic's tactics primarily involved wanting to have a good amount of possession and trying to get forward with purpose.
It's entirely irrelevant if Bilic or Allardyce or anybody else is in the dug out as the team isn't good enough to finish 17th. Never has been. All we have done is swapped chairs on the titanic rather than committing to spend more or accepting we would need to go down, consolidate and then have a proper go at it.
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Worcester i mean even in the EFL. His record from restart was mediocre. Combined with the disintegration of his relationship with the board (not blaming him for that) it was daft to maintain the status quo. Hindsight and all that i know but the writing was on the wall.
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It's entirely irrelevant if Bilic or Allardyce or anybody else is in the dug out as the team isn't good enough to finish 17th. Never has been. All we have done is swapped chairs on the titanic rather than committing to spend more or accepting we would need to go down, consolidate and then have a proper go at it.
The horse may have bolted but it will be interesting to see if we improve with these new players in ( hopefully ) .
To start the season without a DM or a true forward is woeful , I'm not including Austin in that as Bilic bombed him early .
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The only way our current situation makes any sense is if Allardyce stays on for next season.
I’m inclined to agree. To be fair he seems to have sussed what’s wrong with our squad and the additions that he has tried to make I think will ultimately work. Too late for this season but I’d like to think we’ll be far stronger in the Championship next season than we were last. We all know that we were found out big time from around last Christmas and the areas of the pitch where we got away with it and still managed to limp to promotion.
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The only way our current situation makes any sense is if Allardyce stays on for next season.
I think he will
Hes 66
He isnt going to get many more premier league jobs
He managed West Ham in the championship not that long ago
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The horse may have bolted but it will be interesting to see if we improve with these new players in ( hopefully ) .
To start the season without a DM or a true forward is woeful , I'm not including Austin in that as Bilic bombed him early .
Goes back to my point on the tranfer thread though. Imagine Yoksulu and Diagne come in and look like Busquets and Drogba, how does that help us in the Championship next season?
The season was over before it began, nobody was ever going to keep this squad up. Why have we hit the panic button with Allardyce and given him no money to spend? Either keep Bilic to continue building his squad with another lot of parachute payments or give the job to an up-and-coming manager with 6 months to evaluate the squad and identify targets for the summer.
Every time this club seems to be going forward it shoots itself in the foot and it always comes back to short-term thinking and trying to compete on a budget that is never going to be enough. You have to go back to the Dan Ashworth era for the last time this club operated like a 21st century Premier League club should do.
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There is no way Allardyce is managing us in the Championship he will take a pay off and be on his merry way.
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Goes back to my point on the tranfer thread though. Imagine Yoksulu and Diagne come in and look like Busquets and Drogba, how does that help us in the Championship next season?
The season was over before it began, nobody was ever going to keep this squad up. Why have we hit the panic button with Allardyce and given him no money to spend? Either keep Bilic to continue building his squad with another lot of parachute payments or give the job to an up-and-coming manager with 6 months to evaluate the squad and identify targets for the summer.
Every time this club seems to be going forward it shoots itself in the foot and it always comes back to short-term thinking and trying to compete on a budget that is never going to be enough. You have to go back to the Dan Ashworth era for the last time this club operated like a 21st century Premier League club should do.
Bilić wasn't ever staying. If he'd have been on a 4 year deal and on good terms with the hierarchy things may have been different. But he wasn't and they weren't. So we rolled the dice and the rebuild will start if it fails.
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Goes back to my point on the tranfer thread though. Imagine Yoksulu and Diagne come in and look like Busquets and Drogba, how does that help us in the Championship next season?
The season was over before it began, nobody was ever going to keep this squad up. Why have we hit the panic button with Allardyce and given him no money to spend? Either keep Bilic to continue building his squad with another lot of parachute payments or give the job to an up-and-coming manager with 6 months to evaluate the squad and identify targets for the summer.
Every time this club seems to be going forward it shoots itself in the foot and it always comes back to short-term thinking and trying to compete on a budget that is never going to be enough. You have to go back to the Dan Ashworth era for the last time this club operated like a 21st century Premier League club should do.
These young lads and others like Semi will be destroyed confidence wise unless we do something mate , theres no magic switch and defeat after defeat doesn't just wash off come August at a lower level .
Hopefully get a few wins to take wherever we end up .
As a supporter I was annoyed by the cost cutting and the difference between Bilic and the club over players , it might not be enough but I'm hoping to enjoy Diange and hopefully a few more rather than us getting blitzed and suffering the usual suspects week in week out .
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If we dont do anything we now we completely annihilate whats left of the players we will have left next season. It's damage limitation with a bit of hope and hopefully claw back a lot of self-respect.
These players lost to 2 EFL teams this season so forget going down and coming back up based on ability. They are mentally fried. We (the club) need to help them as much as they need to help themselves.
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There is no way Allardyce is managing us in the Championship he will take a pay off and be on his merry way.
Maybe there is a relegation break clause in the contract which allows him to leave without compensation which we are unaware of?
It was an odd decision to give Allardyce an 18 month contract in the first place knowing we were relegation bound anyway, unless there were some kind of assurances from Allardyce that he would give us a season in the championship.
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Maybe there is a relegation break clause in the contract which allows him to leave without compensation which we are unaware of?
It was an odd decision to give Allardyce an 18 month contract in the first place knowing we were relegation bound anyway, unless there were some kind of assurances from Allardyce that he would give us a season in the championship.
What else is he going to do.
Is there another team in the Premiership that would swap their current manager for SA?
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Allardyce started his West Ham career in the Championship and got them promoted, he knows what it takes to get out of the division.
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I think he will
Hes 66
He isnt going to get many more premier league jobs
He managed West Ham in the championship not that long ago
And despite sitting 3rd they protested because they wanted him out.
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Allardyce started his West Ham career in the Championship and got them promoted, he knows what it takes to get out of the division.
I think it is our best option if he stays, he will know the squad properly by then and we do have some decent players who have done it before. Sounds terrible to put it this way, but I suppose it depends if he wants to.
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And despite sitting 3rd they protested because they wanted him out.
When haven’t they protested about something or other?
And for the record, Allardyce won’t be with us in the championship..
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When haven’t they protested about something or other?
And for the record, Allardyce won’t be with us in the championship..
I'm not as convinced as you are Liam. When he arrived, and was pressed on the break in the contract at the end of the season, he was very adamant that it was an 18 month deal, no question. If we improve over the 2nd half of the season we may stick with him.
I think it would be a mistake but we have a tendency to take the path of least resistance.
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Allardyce started his West Ham career in the Championship and got them promoted, he knows what it takes to get out of the division.
He knows what it takes to keep us up (apparently).
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When haven’t they protested about something or other?
And for the record, Allardyce won’t be with us in the championship..
I was about to write the same. Wanted Moyes out last season and went crazy at the sale of Diangana as we were now going to finish above them in the league. They never seem happy.
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I believe he will be gone before the end of the season.
Only if he is dismissed.
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There will be a mutual consent parting of the ways small bag of money for Allardyce clean start for the club but Allardyce won't be managing us in the Championship.
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There will be a mutual consent parting of the ways small bag of money for Allardyce clean start for the club but Allardyce won't be managing us in the Championship.
i think he will be and what's more i would like him to be hear to continue getting the deadwood out
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There is no way Allardyce is managing us in the Championship he will take a pay off and be on his merry way.
lets hope so with minimal payout
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Allardyce started his West Ham career in the Championship and got them promoted, he knows what it takes to get out of the division.
This argument always bores me rigid. He did it once at a club with great resources in the Championship.
You could say Pulis 'knows what it takes' having taken Stoke up. Warnock did it several times.
I'd say I hope to God he's gone in the summer but with our board he'd be replaced with Steve Bruce.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
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There is no way Allardyce is managing us in the Championship he will take a pay off and be on his merry way.
I pray that you are right, but I can see a scenario where we show a bit of improved form at some point in the season and get 3 or 4 wins, and then the club extends his tenure due to a mixture of ineptitude, laziness and lack of vision.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
This is a brilliant post. What Allardyce is doing in this window with NO budget is remarkable if the 2 signings today come off.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
Fantastic post.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
Nail on head
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Nail on head
Sounds painful.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
Very well put post. Perfectly sums up how Bilic spent what little money he had so unwisely.
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This is a brilliant post. What Allardyce is doing in this window with NO budget is remarkable if the 2 signings today come off.
Does that make Dowling a genius again or do we still hate him?
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Very well put post. Perfectly sums up how Bilic spent what little money he had so unwisely.
Have to agree. Much as I liked Slaven’s passion for the game he didn’t spot or fill our weaknesses after we were promoted. Perhaps he wasn’t backed but maybe the powers that be didn’t trust him to spend on the right players. Either way we were promoted with a poor squad and have been found wanting big time ever since. Whether Big Sam is the Head Coach that many of us would choose or not he is not to blame for this mess.
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Very well put post. Perfectly sums up how Bilic spent what little money he had so unwisely.
That Pereira signing at £8.25m really backfired. Boo! Ajayi for £1.5m. Boo! You do realise that we only spent any sizeable fees on Pereira, Diangana and Grant and Bilic preferred to try to get Grady in on loan again to spend the cash elsewhere?
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Does that make Dowling a genius again or do we still hate him?
It has nothing to do with him beyond signing the contracts imo. These are all Allardyce signings.
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That Pereira signing at £8.25m really backfired. Boo! Ajayi for £1.5m. Boo! You do realise that we only spent any sizeable fees on Pereira, Diangana and Grant and Bilic preferred to try to get Grady in on loan again to spend the cash elsewhere?
Ajayi was signed summer 2019, as was Pereira really as it was written into the deal.
Not necessarily about fees, the wage budget is more the limiting factor. He wasted this on players we didn’t need.
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That Pereira signing at £8.25m really backfired. Boo! Ajayi for £1.5m. Boo! You do realise that we only spent any sizeable fees on Pereira, Diangana and Grant and Bilic preferred to try to get Grady in on loan again to spend the cash elsewhere?
Of course these were great signings and I still hope Diangana and Grant will prove their worth (they are both the right age). It was the lack of a defensive midfielder, full backs and a target man upfront which should have been addressed last summer.
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That Pereira signing at £8.25m really backfired. Boo! Ajayi for £1.5m. Boo! You do realise that we only spent any sizeable fees on Pereira, Diangana and Grant and Bilic preferred to try to get Grady in on loan again to spend the cash elsewhere?
Spending the money unwisely isn't just about the players that he brought in (it's a shame you and some others can't accept this). He could have spent money on a DM but we were never linked with any, not once which suggests rather strongly that he didn't see it as a position that needed strengthening.
He could have brought in a proper centre forward but he didn't he chose to bring in yet another wide forward.
Ajayi was good last season at a lower level but has struggled as this season has gone on. He might have looked better with a real Dm in front of him but Bilic didn't deem it necessary.
Allardyce has managed to bring in players in these positions for small beer, Bilic could have done the same but didn't.
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Of course these were great signings and I still hope Diangana and Grant will prove their worth (they are both the right age). It was the lack of a defensive midfielder, full backs and a target man upfront which should have been addressed last summer.
Agreed, but the blame for not strengthening the squad further lies with the board and the totally unrealistic budget that was set.
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Spending the money unwisely isn't just about the players that he brought in (it's a shame you and some others can't accept this). He could have spent money on a DM but we were never linked with any, not once which suggests rather strongly that he didn't see it as a position that needed strengthening. He could have brought in a proper centre forward but he didn't he chose to bring in yet another wide forward. Ajayi was good last season at a lower level but has struggled as this season has gone on. He might have looked better with a real Dm in front of him but Bilic didn't deem it necessary. Allardyce has managed to bring in players in these positions for small beer, Bilic could have done the same but didn't.
Allardyce like Bilic will have successes and failures in the transfer market, although I suspect he has more control of the final decisions than Bilic was afforded in the summer.
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It has nothing to do with him beyond signing the contracts imo. These are all Allardyce signings.
Allardyce might identify the targets (of whom there will be a great many). It's Dowling who gets the deals done.
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One minute people are saying it's Dowling controlling the signings with a little input from the head coaches and the next minute it's the head coaches controlling the signings with a little input from Dowling. ???
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Allardyce like Bilic will have successes and failures in the transfer market, although I suspect he has more control of the final decisions than Bilic was afforded in the summer.
Yes all managers will have successes and failures and maybe Allardyce does have more control over transfers but that doesn't alter the fact that Bilic didn't appear to identify players for the positions we needed but preferred to get in players to play a system we used last season, that was already showing it's weaknesses and that he then abandoned for a system that didn't suit the players he brought in.
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One minute people are saying it's Dowling controlling the signings with a little input from the head coaches and the next minute it's the head coaches controlling the signings with a little input from Dowling. ???
Nobody even mentions Ian Pearce either who is the chief scout.
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Yes all managers will have successes and failures and maybe Allardyce does have more control over transfers but that doesn't alter the fact that Bilic didn't appear to identify players for the positions we needed but preferred to get in players to play a system we used last season, that was already showing it's weaknesses and that he then abandoned for a system that didn't suit the players he brought in.
It's indefensible signing all 3 of Diangana, Krovinović and Robinson in the same window given we didn't have a striker or a defensive midfielder and we were committed to signing Pereira. 4 attacking midfielders/wingers in the same window, before compounding it by marginalising them all by moving to a back 3.
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Yes all managers will have successes and failures and maybe Allardyce does have more control over transfers but that doesn't alter the fact that Bilic didn't appear to identify players for the positions we needed but preferred to get in players to play a system we used last season, that was already showing it's weaknesses and that he then abandoned for a system that didn't suit the players he brought in.
You are correct to say that the club, failed to improve the squad to a sufficient standard to compete in the premiership. I would agree with you that Bilic did not work a miracle. That was inevitable given the scarce resources. We were left to beg and borrow for players at the back of the queue. If we were realistic about trying to stay in this league then we had to spend more to bring in better players, we choose not to.
Further, to build on Jacko's post 1) the swap deal for Burke and Robinson was good business, and it is bizarre to call that decision indefensible and 2) Bilic wanted the Diangana deal on loan again and to spend that cash elsewhere, 3) Krov did not cost the club much and was a popular and successful player who many predicted would benefit from the premiership.
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Can't understand why everyone is getting on at Allardyce, he's as inebriated off as we are. Not his fault the manager before him left him a disastrously balanced Championship squad, having not upgraded either of one of the worst central midfield pairings we have ever seen at the club in this league and likewise left us with the worst full backs we have ever had at this level and to top it off only two recognised strikers both of which are average at best in the Championship.
Blame the board for not giving Bilic enough money if you like, and I would join you, but the money he did have was wasted on creating the most pathetic squad we have witnessed in this division. If Allardyce had been in charge in September he would not have assembled such a turd of a squad, this is proven by the fact he is having to rectify Bilic's glaring mistakes now. He is doing so (basically with zero budget also, same as Bilic), by signing a striker, central midfielders and a full back. Bilic failed and deservedly got sacked, the bunch of players he left us collectively were next to useless. Allardyce has had to work hard to rectify this and unfortunately it looks like it will be too late in the end.
Brilliant post mate! Very well put.
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It's indefensible signing all 3 of Diangana, Krovinović and Robinson in the same window given we didn't have a striker or a defensive midfielder and we were committed to signing Pereira. 4 attacking midfielders/wingers in the same window, before compounding it by marginalising them all by moving to a back 3.
The manager/head coach only makes suggestions and identifies potential targets. It's Dowling who makes the final decisions and gets the deals done.
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The manager/head coach only makes suggestions and identifies potential targets. It's Dowling who makes the final decisions and gets the deals done.
Glad you agree, indefensible of Bilić to identify 4 attacking midfielders/wingers in the same window (5 if we now agree Grant is more effective wide left) but not a striker or a defensive midfielder. 😉
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You are correct to say that the club, failed to improve the squad to a sufficient standard to compete in the premiership. I would agree with you that Bilic did not work a miracle. That was inevitable given the scarce resources. We were left to beg and borrow for players at the back of the queue. If we were realistic about trying to stay in this league then we had to spend more to bring in better players, we choose not to.
Further, to build on Jacko's post 1) the swap deal for Burke and Robinson was good business, and it is bizarre to call that decision indefensible and 2) Bilic wanted the Diangana deal on loan again and to spend that cash elsewhere, 3) Krov did not cost the club much and was a popular and successful player who many predicted would benefit from the premiership.
I agree the swap deal for Burke/Robinson was a good piece of business, we got rid of a player that wasn't going to feature for that that was.
Krovinovic might not have cost the club much but that "not much" could have been used to bring in someone else especially as we already had Gallagher in. Krovinovic was a bit part player in the Championship I'm not sure too many thought he'd make the step up to the Premier League.
In his pursuit of Krovinovic and Grant, Bilic seemed blinded to any other options.
My main issue isn't with players/cost as much as it is: why buy players for a system that you aren't going to play? Surely Bilic knew what system he was going to play before the season started, so why not get in players that will suit that system? He bought players that had suited a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 then chose to play 5-3-2 /3-5-2/.
Knowing that funds would be limited; having an idea of system of play and then getting in players to suit that system would have given us a better chance of staying in the division however slim.
Allardyce has at least been able to identify where we are weak (and have been since last season ended) and is trying to rectify it.
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The manager/head coach only makes suggestions and identifies potential targets. It's Dowling who makes the final decisions and gets the deals done.
It's obvious now that the relationship was broken well before the start of the season and the thinking wasn't joined up at all. Slav seemed obsessed with Krov and Grant, and took a punt on Ivanovic that backfired disastrously. it would appear that Dowling was instructed by the board to look for young players that would be a sound investment rather than those who might be PL ready and thus took on Grady, Grant and Kipre. The result being that we went into the season without a CF or DCM at all!! And still relying on RS\JL pivot that had long ceased to be effective even in the champ. In addition the plan to focus the money we had on the domestic market, whoever's decision, now looks close to insane!!
If nothing else at least BS has come in and tried to rectify those obvious weaknesses.
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Glad you agree, indefensible of Bilić to identify 4 attacking midfielders/wingers in the same window (5 if we now agree Grant is more effective wide left) but not a striker or a defensive midfielder. 😉
The point I'm making is that, as a club, we only employ head coaches. We have a Director of Football to make the decisions about transfers. If it was left to the head coach alone, I'm sure both Bilic and Allardyce would have signed loads more players.
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It's indefensible signing all 3 of Diangana, Krovinović and Robinson in the same window given we didn't have a striker or a defensive midfielder and we were committed to signing Pereira. 4 attacking midfielders/wingers in the same window, before compounding it by marginalising them all by moving to a back 3.
The investment into the squad in the summer was underwhelming, a fact I'm sure no-one is going to dispute, however the limited funds we did allocate on signings were poor, indefensible choices. Robinson was hardly utilized in the championship and we only played him as a striker once in total desperation. Grant is clearly not suited to playing as a lone striker yet we pinned all our hopes on him. The spine of our team is utterly dreadful for this standard; Pereira and Ajayi (on a good day) aside, what on earth were we thinking?
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if Sam does a good job between now and the end of the season I would be in favor of asking him to stay, when we get relegated. The jury is out so far on him but a total rebuild in June from top to bottom is unlikely to succeed with the current hierarchy.
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if Sam does a good job between now and the end of the season I would be in favor of asking him to stay, when we get relegated. The jury is out so far on him but a total rebuild in June from top to bottom is unlikely to succeed with the current hierarchy.
that's why I'm pinning my hopes on Lai selling if we stay up or even if we do go down.
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The point I'm making is that, as a club, we only employ head coaches. We have a Director of Football to make the decisions about transfers. If it was left to the head coach alone, I'm sure both Bilic and Allardyce would have signed loads more players.
It’s not about signing loads of players though.
It’s about signing the right ones to fit the system you intend to play.
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He bought players that had suited a 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 then chose to play 5-3-2 /3-5-2/.
I cropped your post just to address this subject. I think Bilic changing formation and tactics was more to do with us not getting results and the strengths and weakness of the opposition than anything else. When you are better than most teams in the championship you can to a degree impose your own style. At this level we need to be a lot more nimble. The same thing happened on Saturday. Allardyce played with a 5 at the back and then tore that blue print up after just 23 minutes.
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I cropped your post just to address this subject. I think Bilic changing formation and tactics was more to do with us not getting results and the strengths and weakness of the opposition than anything else. When you are better than most teams in the championship you can to a degree impose your own style. At this level we need to be a lot more nimble. The same thing happened on Saturday. Allardyce played with a 5 at the back and then tore that blue print up after just 23 minutes.
Yeah. Took Allardyce 22 minutes to see it doesn't work. Bilić persisted with it despite it marginalising 80% of his summer acquisitions for multiple games :-\
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Yeah. Took Allardyce 22 minutes to see it doesn't work. Bilić persisted with it despite it marginalising 80% of his summer acquisitions for multiple games :-\
I'd love to know which formation Allardyce has stumbled on at the Hawthorns that has worked this season. We are deep in trouble unless the FA allow us to play a 8-8-4 line-up and even then I doubt we'd be keeping any clean sheets.
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Afternoon all. Just a heads up to say The Athletic have done a 3 part podcast on Big Sam covering his entire career. Available to all, no need for a subscription. Happy listening.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-headline-going-deeper-on-biggest-stories-in/id1532666795
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.......unless the FA allow us to play a 8-8-4 line-up and even then I doubt we'd be keeping any clean sheets.
Makes you wonder how Bilic hoped to impose any kind of style on PL opposition with the players at his disposal then really.
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I cropped your post just to address this subject. I think Bilic changing formation and tactics was more to do with us not getting results and the strengths and weakness of the opposition than anything else. When you are better than most teams in the championship you can to a degree impose your own style. At this level we need to be a lot more nimble. The same thing happened on Saturday. Allardyce played with a 5 at the back and then tore that blue print up after just 23 minutes.
Bilic changed it before we'd even got a result though, he lined up with 5 at the back against Leicester. Surely he must have known that we'd be one of the weaker sides in this division considering how we stumbled to promotion yet decided not to strengthen in the positions that were needed.
Yes, Allardyce changed it on Saturday early on in the game, it's a shame Bilic didn't do the same in some of the games he had in charge.
It's something I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on.
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Bilic changed it before we'd even got a result though, he lined up with 5 at the back against Leicester. Surely he must have known that we'd be one of the weaker sides in this division considering how we stumbled to promotion yet decided not to strengthen in the positions that were needed.
Yes, Allardyce changed it on Saturday early on in the game, it's a shame Bilic didn't do the same in some of the games he had in charge.
It's something I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on.
I think we are better with a back four, under either manager. We have never looked convincing with a back five. Both have tried it to try to protect us defensively but it's only made us worse.
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Whatever you think of Sam Allardyce, like him or didn’t want him you can’t deny it hasn’t taken him long to identify our weakness. We have just under half a season left to win 3 more games than Brighton. Let’s hope the players coming in have the character to make a difference.
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Whatever you think of Sam Allardyce, like him or didn’t want him you can’t deny it hasn’t taken him long to identify our weakness. We have just under half a season left to win 3 more games than Brighton. Let’s hope the players coming in have the character to make a difference.
Have we signed a new left back and right back then? It would be quicker to identify our strengths.
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Whatever you think of Sam Allardyce, like him or didn’t want him you can’t deny it hasn’t taken him long to identify our weakness. We have just under half a season left to win 3 more games than Brighton. Let’s hope the players coming in have the character to make a difference.
To be fair a blind man on a galloping horse can see what our weaknesses are, doing something about it with the costs associated is another matter entirely
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Whatever you think of Sam Allardyce, like him or didn’t want him you can’t deny it hasn’t taken him long to identify our weakness. We have just under half a season left to win 3 more games than Brighton. Let’s hope the players coming in have the character to make a difference.
Agree - the mind boggles that we did not view central midfield as a priority. The loan ended up being used on the wrong player.
I would have liked a centre half but hopefully with the new additions our defenders will get a bit more protection than they’ve had previously.
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I don't think its worth getting carried away one way or another just yet, it looks like he got the players he wanted so now lets see if we improve.
Like other posters, I think we are broken in more departments than just head coach. it does seem the owner has hit the panic button, just five months too late.
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@SIMONSTONE
"Sam Allardyce on life @WBA : "I am not sleeping again. But that is the norm. I could be where Slav is now, earning God knows how many millions. But there is no way I want to go to China + do it for the money. I want to be in the best league in the world.""
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This has been an absolutely stunning transfer window considering there was no money. As good as anything he's done previously on much bigger budgets.
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Yes a very good window for the sum of nothing but loan fees.
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Just a pity we had to wait so long to close the curtains.
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Yeah. Took Allardyce 22 minutes to see it doesn't work. Bilić persisted with it despite it marginalising 80% of his summer acquisitions for multiple games :-\
He picked the flipping team and set them up all wrong on Saturday when a better team would have been 3 goals ahead. Beyond me how you can turn that into praise for the guy. Sit deep, surrender midfield then look shocked when the opposition dictate the game. Has done similar in every home game to date.
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Excellent stuff :o an actual CDM, possibly two but Maitland-Niles can attack too. Snodgrass - brilliant signing. Finally Diagne - exactly what we need.
Bonus - if Musa impresses we sign him - great!
Excellent window, only issue is it may be too late but 6 or 7 wins and 4 or 5 draws and we're in the mix.
Well done Sam and well done to Dowling I guess for helping getting these deals over the line
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This has been an absolutely stunning transfer window considering there was no money. As good as anything he's done previously on much bigger budgets.
And a much better use of resources taking into both domestic and European markets.
Our summer recruitment was pathetic. Thankfully Allardyce has helped put that right.
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@SIMONSTONE
"Sam Allardyce on life @WBA : "I am not sleeping again. But that is the norm. I could be where Slav is now, earning God knows how many millions. But there is no way I want to go to China + do it for the money. I want to be in the best league in the world.""
Said the man who will quite literally earn £millions at WBA. I didn't think I could like him less but what the heck everyday is a school day.
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Said the man who will quite literally earn £millions at WBA. I didn't think I could like him less but what the heck everyday is a school day.
No, Sam is here for the love of it. 8)
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How about we all get off his back give him a chance with the new signings and get behind him and the team!
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How about we all get off his back give him a chance with the new signings and get behind him and the team!
Nicely put albion59!
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;D Hats off to Big Sam signed up 3 class signings so 5 in total. Now we need 7 wins and a couple of draws?? Who knows what could happen??
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We haven't strengthened the defence that can't defend!
A better midfield will help but only marginal.
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On paper they look very good signings, genuine PL signings. Had we signed them in the summer then used this window to add one or two more we'd have had a real chance of staying up. Cant help thinking they've all joined too late. We should at least be more competitive though for the second half of the season.
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I find it laughable that any true WBA supporter could not recognise what an amazing job Allardyce has done. We've been mismanaged for a long time now. He's identified the issues and brought in quality with 0 investment. Best manager we have had in my life time.
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I find it laughable that any true WBA supporter could not recognise what an amazing job Allardyce has done. We've been mismanaged for a long time now. He's identified the issues and brought in quality with 0 investment. Best manager we have had in my life time.
How old are you? 10?
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Good window but it has to be said if it’s correct that he said that quote about Bilic then it’s another example of lacking class. It’s not as if he’s sitting on a turnaround in results. I’d prefer he focus on fixing our defence rather than having a dig at Bilic.
Good window though. Let’s hope we can at least compete in the remaining games and going into next season on the back of some half decent form.
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Good window but it has to be said if it’s correct that he said that quote about Bilic then it’s another example of lacking class. It’s not as if he’s sitting on a turnaround in results. I’d prefer he focus on fixing our defence rather than having a dig at Bilic.
It's only a dig if you choose to see it that way.
It never occured to me when I read that quote that it was meant as a dig at anyone, more making a point of how comfortable he is in the PL.
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How about we all get off his back give him a chance with the new signings and get behind him and the team!
I’m not in his back....I can’t stand him as a person, I don’t think he should be allowed to have anything to do with football....but I also understand why the board bought him in.
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Good window but it has to be said if it’s correct that he said that quote about Bilic then it’s another example of lacking class. It’s not as if he’s sitting on a turnaround in results. I’d prefer he focus on fixing our defence rather than having a dig at Bilic.
Dig or no dig - two of Bilic’s last three managerial gigs have been for the money. Otherwise, why else would he be in Saudi Arabia and China?!
It certainly isn’t for the football 🤑
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Decent window by the looks of it except no defenders - weird when we're so awful at defending.
SA's quote re Bilic and money is just ugly, no need for it.
I don't think the new players will make enough of a difference to win 8 out of 17 games but at least we may win 3 or 4 and go down with less of a whimper than we currently are
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@SIMONSTONE
"Sam Allardyce on life @WBA : "I am not sleeping again. But that is the norm. I could be where Slav is now, earning God knows how many millions. But there is no way I want to go to China + do it for the money. I want to be in the best league in the world.""
Bit ironic, since he's employed by a Chinese owned football club.
Unless he knows something we don't.................
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How about we all get off his back give him a chance with the new signings and get behind him and the team!
Dont be saft whatever he does wont be good enough for some. :o
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Good window but it has to be said if it’s correct that he said that quote about Bilic then it’s another example of lacking class. It’s not as if he’s sitting on a turnaround in results. I’d prefer he focus on fixing our defence rather than having a dig at Bilic.
Good window though. Let’s hope we can at least compete in the remaining games and going into next season on the back of some half decent form.
He refers to him as Slav so there is a chance they are mates, which completely changes the context. If not, then I agree, he could have made the point without referring to anyone in particular.
If his only legacy is to finally replace Livermore in the first 11, then it'll be worth it. No agenda it's just such a key position to how we play and Jake is not good enough and a massive part of why we ship so many goals.
Let's hope Okay is more than OK.
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How about we all get off his back give him a chance with the new signings and get behind him and the team!
Like everybody on here did with Alan Irvine? Who on a points per game basis would have us 3 points behind Brighton rather than 9 whose team never conceded 4 goals in a game let alone 5 (twice) who while being not a very good manager was a decent and dignified man.
So in short I don't feel under any obligation to like want or support Allardyce.
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Like everybody on here did with Alan Irvine? Who on a points per game basis would have us 3 points behind Brighton rather than 9 whose team never conceded 4 goals in a game let alone 5 (twice) who while being not a very good manager was a decent and dignified man.
So in short I don't feel under any obligation to like want or support Allardyce.
He's our manager. While he is we should all be big enough to get behind him and the team.
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Like everybody on here did with Alan Irvine? Who on a points per game basis would have us 3 points behind Brighton rather than 9 whose team never conceded 4 goals in a game let alone 5 (twice) who while being not a very good manager was a decent and dignified man.
So in short I don't feel under any obligation to like want or support Allardyce.
Whether you like Allardyce or not and I don't particularly, you can at least see some logic to his appointment and his pedigree is clear to see.
Irvine had nothing on his cv to suggest he was what we needed, so made no sense at all, once he took over he did nothing to prove his doubters wrong. Poor comparison for me.
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I find it laughable that any true WBA supporter could not recognise what an amazing job Allardyce has done. We've been mismanaged for a long time now. He's identified the issues and brought in quality with 0 investment. Best manager we have had in my life time.
Have you looked at the results? That's what a manager is judged on - not on a few signings that haven't even played yet.
Be interesting to see what happens when our defence is still all over the shop and we can no longer blame Sawyers and Livermore.
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He's our manager. While he is we should all be big enough to get behind him and the team.
Getting behind the team yes. Did everyone get behind Pulis? Pardew? Big Dave? Bilic? There weren't people calling for their heads or criticising every little thing they did?
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Bit ironic, since he's employed by a Chinese owned football club.
Unless he knows something we don't.................
Given how absent Lai has been, it's more likely we know something he doesn't.
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Getting behind the team yes. Did everyone get behind Pulis? Pardew? Big Dave? Bilic? There weren't people calling for their heads or criticising every little thing they did?
That was generally after a period of time though.
It's not fair to judge Allardyce on what he's had to work with so far.
The "I don't like him" attitude is childish.
Get behind him, then judge him on his performance. That is fair enough.
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I find it laughable that any true WBA supporter could not recognise what an amazing job Allardyce has done. We've been mismanaged for a long time now. He's identified the issues and brought in quality with 0 investment. Best manager we have had in my life time.
you must be a teenager then ;D
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you must be a teenager then ;D
He's six months old but very advanced for his age. 😄
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Like everybody on here did with Alan Irvine? Who on a points per game basis would have us 3 points behind Brighton rather than 9 whose team never conceded 4 goals in a game let alone 5 (twice) who while being not a very good manager was a decent and dignified man.
So in short I don't feel under any obligation to like want or support Allardyce.
Normally you post well thought out, constructive but critical analysis of our team, selection and tactics it seems to be quite out of character to be so irrational to SA
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Normally you post well thought out, constructive but critical analysis of our team, selection and tactics it seems to be quite out of character to be so irrational to SA
Agreed. A poster I respect a lot. Letting himself down. Disappointing.
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Agreed. A poster I respect a lot. Letting himself down. Disappointing.
A very condescending and uncalled for post. If anyone is letting themselves down, it is those people who are so willing to throw principles and integrity under a bus and welcome Allardyce to our club with open arms like he is some sort of messiah.
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A very condescending and uncalled for post. If anyone is letting themselves down, it is those people who are so willing to throw principles and integrity under a bus and welcome Allardyce to our club with open arms like he is some sort of messiah.
No, he's just being awarded a fair crack of the whip without opinions being influenced by prejudiced views like any new manager should be.
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A very condescending and uncalled for post. If anyone is letting themselves down, it is those people who are so willing to throw principles and integrity under a bus and welcome Allardyce to our club with open arms like he is some sort of messiah.
He's not Corberan, he's a very naughty boy......... ;D
........ and he's also our boss and for that reason I want him to succeed.
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I've posted this before, but.................
SA is here because of a change in strategy at the top of the football club.
There were thousands of posts on this forum who said they were bored with the Pulis style of football, & would accept relegation if it meant a more exciting style.
We achieved relegation, & a got a more exciting style & promotion.
Now we get to a crossroads in the decision making process.
To continue with an exciting style is expensive in the EPL, with the funds available, it might be better to be more pragmatic & buy high wage/low transfer cost experienced players
IMO the coin came down on the wrong side, & we opted for high transfer cost/low wage players with potential.
If we had taken the pragmatic route, & spent our money on wages (pretty much what we've done now), we would have been more competitive.
I'm certain that after 2 or 3 seasons with the pragmatic SA the demand for more exciting football will come back again.
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In a five/six a side game, you wouldn't get many bets on Austin, Kipre, Field, Bond, Harper and Edwards v Diagne, Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles, Snodgrass and Lonergan.
And the fact that we parted with near £30m for Grant and Diangana, who will probably now be warming the bench, emphasises how poor our recruitment/retention was in the summer. BS has at last sorted the CM weakness staring everyone in the face and you get the impression that he has done this through his own contacts in the game.
Its true his football style is pragmatic, but an awful lot better than TP and very probably we'd have stayed up if he had been around pre season.
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In a five/six a side game, you wouldn't get many bets on Austin, Kipre, Field, Bond, Harper and Edwards v Diagne, Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles, Snodgrass and Lonergan.
And the fact that we parted with near £30m for Grant and Diangana, who will probably now be warming the bench, emphasises how poor our recruitment/retention was in the summer. BS has at last sorted the CM weakness staring everyone in the face and you get the impression that he has done this through his own contacts in the game.
Its true his football style is pragmatic, but an awful lot better than TP and very probably we'd have stayed up if he had been around pre season.
I cant believe the deal we did for Diangana and yes I did say so at the time. That money could've been so much better spent elsewhere. Kipre I was publically against as well.
That's how much wasted? £14 million plus?
For a club like ours at this stage, that's awful.
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I can never understand why SA gets compared with TP. The only similarity is they both looked to a solid defence.
SA is a much more rounded and successful manager than TP will ever be.
Glad we have him.
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In a five/six a side game, you wouldn't get many bets on Austin, Kipre, Field, Bond, Harper and Edwards v Diagne, Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles, Snodgrass and Lonergan.
And the fact that we parted with near £30m for Grant and Diangana, who will probably now be warming the bench, emphasises how poor our recruitment/retention was in the summer. BS has at last sorted the CM weakness staring everyone in the face and you get the impression that he has done this through his own contacts in the game.
Its true his football style is pragmatic, but an awful lot better than TP and very probably we'd have stayed up if he had been around pre season.
I doubt very much that is true.
It's inconceivable that an individual would have knowledge of players that were not known to an EPL club's potential player network.
Players of a similar calibre to those we have now were available in the summer, it's just that we chose to take a different route.
If you read our latest published accounts, there is a written strategic approach to lower the average age of the players, IMO, it's that strategy that was followed in the summer.
We've abandoned that now in favour of a more pragmatic approach, SA is just part of the strategy.
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That was generally after a period of time though.
It's not fair to judge Allardyce on what he's had to work with so far.
The "I don't like him" attitude is childish.
Get behind him, then judge him on his performance. That is fair enough.
But I am judging him on the performances - so far they've been 90% awful. We can't just put it down to the players as we looked better under Bilic mostly. In respect of the performances we've gone backwards. Hopefully the new signings will improve us but I think leaving the defence unchanged is a huge mistake - we are too quick to let the defence off the hook by pinning the blame on the midfield. If we do improve with the new signings then I'll change my view on Sam, I'm not just entrenched in a view but I'm judging him off his performances. If they improve, my view of him will improve.
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But I am judging him on the performances - so far they've been 90% awful. We can't just put it down to the players as we looked better under Bilic mostly. In respect of the performances we've gone backwards. Hopefully the new signings will improve us but I think leaving the defence unchanged is a huge mistake - we are too quick to let the defence off the hook by pinning the blame on the midfield. If we do improve with the new signings then I'll change my view on Sam, I'm not just entrenched in a view but I'm judging him off his performances. If they improve, my view of him will improve.
They were Bilic's players.
It is unfair to judge any manager when having to deal with another person's squad.
Its harsh to judge Allardyce from here till the end of the season even, he has four players that have signed under his watch 5 if you include Lonergan who was not brought in to challenge for the first team.
Just give people a fair go that's all I'm saying.
I wasn't a huge fan of Bilic but that was after more than a year in charge and three transfer windows. I think its fair to criticise then.
Allardyce so far has had next to no chance.
Just give him a fair go.
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No, he's just being awarded a fair crack of the whip without opinions being influenced by prejudiced views like any new manager should be.
I don’t agree with Stan on this matter, but he has every right to refuse to look beyond indiscretions.
They aren’t the same, but I could never get over some of the adulation Lee Hughes seemed to retain after his conviction and my old man always hated Robson for going to Man Utd.
There may be points when there is conflict (as there was when I laughed at Hughes for his boing boing at molineux, or there was for my dad when Robson kept us up) but he is still entitled to feel however he wants.
The ones I can’t understand are those who seem to be anti Allardyce purely because they were pro Bilic.
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In my defence. There are layers and levels to my dislike of Allardyce some of which the mods (rightly in my view) decided I can't talk about. So there is quite literally nothing he can do to change my view of him.
I accept this and as such I am generally laying off any discussion of the man his tactics are fair game. However his typical cheap shot at Bilic sorry that is red rag to a bull.
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There are always at least two sides to an opinion. As JC points out there are some of us on here that dislike Allardyce because they are pro Bilic. There are others who like Allardyce because they were anti Bilic. There are those who dislike Allardyce because of his history in the game, and there are still more of us who are far from happy with the manner of the defeats inflicted upon the team whilst he has been in charge. Just for the record I feel the same as Standaman does regarding Allardyce, and am unlikely to change my opinion. But I support West Bromwich Albion and I want the team to do well regardless of who the temporary head coach is. I suspect Standaman and most of the other shall we say 'non-pro' Allardyce posters will feel much the same, so it is still COYB regardless.
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In my defence. There are layers and levels to my dislike of Allardyce some of which the mods (rightly in my view) decided I can't talk about. So there is quite literally nothing he can do to change my view of him.
I accept this and as such I am generally laying off any discussion of the man his tactics are fair game. However his typical cheap shot at Bilic sorry that is red rag to a bull.
The cheap shot at Bilic was completely unnecessary. I certainly will never say Allardyce is a man of class, but even so, to show such a lack of it to a fellow professional is disappointing. Just don't say anything.
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Does that make Dowling a genius again or do we still hate him?
Quite, Bilic wastes money, Allardyce is a genius, then, next day its not the managers remit its the DoF's
lets have some consistency chaps, the only one showing any is Gazberg and at least he is always wrong ;-)
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In my defence. There are layers and levels to my dislike of Allardyce some of which the mods (rightly in my view) decided I can't talk about. So there is quite literally nothing he can do to change my view of him.
I accept this and as such I am generally laying off any discussion of the man his tactics are fair game. However his typical cheap shot at Bilic sorry that is red rag to a bull.
You see it as a cheap shot, some of us don't. You see it as you want.
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I've always been sceptical of Allardyce because of his style of football, but we are now in a dire situation and results are obviously crucial. If we need to win ugly then needs must right now, but long term I could never accept watching week in week out long balls up to a target man or into the channels typical of British football in the 70-80s. The reputation of the club suffers, as we saw under Pulis.
I hope SA proves me wrong, that actually we do get to see some open expansive football, passing through the midfield, where the individual ballskills of players are celebrated not dismissed as tippy tappy or suchlike. But now is not the time for being over critical as its results that count.
But one thing that does warm me to SA, is that he comes from Dudley, and he's decided to do something to help his local football club get out of the mire.
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Generally tried to stay away from this thread as I'm still recovering from the Pulis one. Anyway, my general thoughts on Allardyce....
I don't like him as a person, both on a relatively minor level in terms of comments like he made yesterday, his general insistence on any success being down to him, and just his general persona as a whole. Theres also other larger reasons which can't be discussed on here. However, I'd find it quite insulting if someone was then to suggest I can't give a balanced opinion on him just because I don't like him and any comments made against him were not giving him a fair shot.
Style wise, his football is not good to watch (another reason I don't warm to him) but I'd say he is both a better manager, and not 'as' bad to watch as Pulis. Certainly more in common with Hodgson as a managerial style who I do like, but that boils more down to their morals and character than differences in playing styles.
Since Allardyce has got here, I think he's largely made us a lot worse. There were some really poor performances under Bilic but games like Fulham (1st half), City, Leeds, Arsenal, Villa have been as bad as anything I've seen in the last 20 years. In particular Leeds, Villa and first 45 against Fulham were borderline disgraceful from everyone involved.
I understand some of calls for patience with Allardyce, but it's not something I can agree with. He's not a project manager or a long term investment, but someone who was both bought in to, and specialises in, providing short term fixes and results based around an improved defence. With that in mind, I think it's only fair to judge him a lot sooner than we normally would with a manager, because he's been bought in to do one very specific job.
Ultimately, with or without Allardyce I think we were going down and still do. With the players we have now I'd expect any manager in the world to deliver better results than than up to now as they have literally half a team worths of improvements and a side that should now be competitive most week at the absolute minimum. If Allardyce can add anything with his coaching then 25 points from now until May is achievable, but I'd expect us to gain around 20 without him managing to contribute anything positive.
I don't agree anyone who says anything negative about Allardyce is a 'hater'. Some of the views against him or rational and fair even if you disagree, some are probably a bit irrational based against his style of play or a fondness for other managers. But a lot of being a football man is relatively irrational opinions, and I don't think wanting a person you support and sing for each week to also be a person you like and respect is a strange position to take.
He's done a good to an extent of bringing players in, although I'm always little sceptical of who should/shouldn't get credit for signings. Nobody knows for sure what happens behind the scenes and without having that insight it's easy for people to either blame or praise Billic/Dowling/Allardyce depending on their stance. I'm encouraged with the signing of Yokuslu as hopefully whatever division we are in next season we might be prepared to look a little further afield for signings next summer.
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I've always been sceptical of Allardyce because of his style of football, but we are now in a dire situation and results are obviously crucial. If we need to win ugly then needs must right now, but long term I could never accept watching week in week out long balls up to a target man or into the channels typical of British football in the 70-80s. The reputation of the club suffers, as we saw under Pulis.
I hope SA proves me wrong, that actually we do get to see some open expansive football, passing through the midfield, where the individual ballskills of players are celebrated not dismissed as tippy tappy or suchlike. But now is not the time for being over critical as its results that count.
But one thing that does warm me to SA, is that he comes from Dudley, and he's decided to do something to help his local football club get out of the mire.
Have to say Alex, really enjoy your sense of humour :)
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Have to say Alex, really enjoy your sense of humour :)
It was actually intended as a serious comment. Despite being sceptical of his preferred football style, its good to see someone at the helm whose roots are in the Black Country, who can identify with his local community. Especially if he had some previous allegiance to Wolverhampton.
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BS has at last sorted the CM weakness staring everyone in the face
We have signed one central midfielder who is yet to kick a ball for us. Do you not think that it's a bit premature to be claiming we have sorted out our midfield problems?
On a separate note, there was another poster on here (Vanderlei) who claimed Allardyce has done an "amazing job" - I fell off my chair reading that, it was so detached from the results. We've played five home games, got a single point in a must win game, got hammered in four of them, conceded 22 and scored 2. The consequence of that appalling run of results is that when Allardyce was appointed we were THREE POINTS from safety. We are now TEN POINTS from safety and almost relegated before his new signings have a chance to help out.
I hope the new signings and a win tonight kick starts a massive fight back. My concern is that is is now too little, too late.
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...... its good to see someone at the helm whose roots are in the Black Country, who can identify with his local community. Especially if he had some previous allegiance to Wolverhampton.
We had someone like that not long ago. He came in for a lot of stick for his previous Dingle connections and perceived undermining of Pepe Mel. He was guilty of helping keep us up.
Keith Downing was part of the former Albion backroom team with England and now plies his trade at Bristol City I believe. Good man and a good coach harshly treated by a fair number of our support base.
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I doubt very much that is true.
It's inconceivable that an individual would have knowledge of players that were not known to an EPL club's potential player network.
Players of a similar calibre to those we have now were available in the summer, it's just that we chose to take a different route.
If you read our latest published accounts, there is a written strategic approach to lower the average age of the players, IMO, it's that strategy that was followed in the summer.
We've abandoned that now in favour of a more pragmatic approach, SA is just part of the strategy.
We could just as easily have brought the average age down with overseas players, who are generally better value.
The fact is that the only recent overseas players of note were Krovinovic and Periera and both of those were scouted by Bilic. So Albion haven't demonstrated for quite a while any evidence of an EPL scouting network; far from it. I still think its more than a coincidence that BS shows up and so do Diagne and Yokuslu.
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We could just as easily have brought the average age down with overseas players, who are generally better value.
The fact is that the only recent overseas players of note were Krovinovic and Periera and both of those were scouted by Bilic. So Albion haven't demonstrated for quite a while any evidence of an EPL scouting network; far from it. I still think its more than a coincidence that BS shows up and so do Diagne and Yokuslu.
Do you seriously believe that Allardyce has kept up to date with the goings on in the lower reaches of the Spanish league and the Turkish league, and that he personally identified these two players as those who we should sign?
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We could just as easily have brought the average age down with overseas players, who are generally better value.
The fact is that the only recent overseas players of note were Krovinovic and Periera and both of those were scouted by Bilic. So Albion haven't demonstrated for quite a while any evidence of an EPL scouting network; far from it. I still think its more than a coincidence that BS shows up and so do Diagne and Yokuslu.
Just because players come into the public domain when a new head coach appears doesn't mean they haven't been considered.
With the resources available to EPL clubs, I would doubt there are any players who they don't know about.
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Well the first person who can give me one genuine improvement since he came in wins a twix.
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Well the first person who can give me one genuine improvement since he came in wins a twix.
Opposition fans get to see more goals on Match of the Day. Shall I PM you my address?
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Opposition fans get to see more goals on Match of the Day. Shall I PM you my address?
That’s not even good enough for a fun size twix :D
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No idea what the game plan was. I think the worst part about that was after Sharp scored. We failed to create a single shot on goal. What a gutless reaction.
Sam has made us a worse team so far, the defensive masterclass coach has us conceding 2 or 3 goals a game minimum.
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We had someone like that not long ago. He came in for a lot of stick for his previous Dingle connections and perceived undermining of Pepe Mel. He was guilty of helping keep us up.
Keith Downing was part of the former Albion backroom team with England and now plies his trade at Bristol City I believe. Good man and a good coach harshly treated by a fair number of our support base.
Albion would have gone down without Keith Downing that season. He basically ran the team during Pepe Mel’s tenure. It was very bad news for us when he left, and I don’t see people of his calibre around the club now. The few left that were any good have now gone off to Aston Villa.
And as you say Downing is also a very good bloke. Sad and ill-informed nonsense ensured we lost him. Another self-inflicted piece of wrecking.
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Can't defend him , bringing HRK on for Diagne and old mother Grant for Robinson killed us .
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Admit Sam your past it and your anti football does not work anymore. Do the decent thing and retire
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i was opposed to Allardyce because of his "character", I am now also opposed to him because he is a bloody poor coach, The team has regressed seriously under his tenure,
No-one can blame Bilic or Downing or Lai for that, its down to the Sams
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Feels like the Pardew tenure to be honest. For the win at Wolves see Liverpool in the cup...other than that pretty dreadful.
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He reminds me of Pardew's time at the club.
I genuinely thought he'd do much better and undeniably his record before us was genuinely impressive. For whatever reason, it just hasn't worked out. I was critical of Bilic and rightly so as he made his share of mistakes, but Allardyce is no better and I'm quite shocked at how poor he's looked.
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He reminds me of Pardew's time at the club.
I genuinely thought he'd do much better and undeniably his record before us was genuinely impressive. For whatever reason, it just hasn't worked out. I was critical of Bilic and rightly so as he made his share of mistakes, but Allardyce is no better and I'm quite shocked at how poor he's looked.
Do we pull the trigger or let him have until the last game of the season.
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He reminds me of Pardew's time at the club.
I genuinely thought he'd do much better and undeniably his record before us was genuinely impressive. For whatever reason, it just hasn't worked out. I was critical of Bilic and rightly so as he made his share of mistakes, but Allardyce is no better and I'm quite shocked at how poor he's looked.
Whilst I don’t rate Allardyce he is a much better coach than Pardew.
Unfortunately neither of them were right for the Albion.
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He reminds me of Pardew's time at the club.
I genuinely thought he'd do much better and undeniably his record before us was genuinely impressive. For whatever reason, it just hasn't worked out. I was critical of Bilic and rightly so as he made his share of mistakes, but Allardyce is no better and I'm quite shocked at how poor he's looked.
Hard to argue with this. Other than the goal difference though, I don’t think we are in a vastly different position to that we would have been in. Bilic and SA have virtually identical PPG at this stage.
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I know people are disillusioned/angry/ whatever with Allardyce but the rules about not suggesting new managers still applies.
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Whilst I don’t rate Allardyce he is a much better coach than Pardew.
Unfortunately neither of them were right for the Albion.
It’s not necessarily a comparison of managers but when they joined us and how things went or “feltâ€. Both a disaster...
Also what’s the point of Okay and Maitland-Niles now? For them personally the shop window but for us too late...
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Whilst I don’t rate Allardyce he is a much better coach than Pardew.
Unfortunately neither of them were right for the Albion.
Yes I agree that Allardyce's career has been far better than Pardew's. But my point is, even before Pardew came in - his reputation was far better than when he left us. His win record in the PL was slightly higher than Pulis's and he was a bit unorthodox but I was quietly optimistic when he first came in. My point is, I was pleased with both appointments yet they've been similar in terms of being massively underwhelming.
Personally I'd give Allardyce until after the Burnley/Brighton games to see if he can turn it round, he's still only been in for a very short period. If we're still miles off then I'd get rid. The only negative is that I imagine he's on a big contract/pay-out so we may suffer financially.
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Pulis had a far superior squad than Allardyce and that's the problem recruitment in the last few seasons has been inadequate with only in this window we seem to be trying to rectify previous mistakes.
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I would even say we were more competitive than this under Pardew - we have just been outclassed by arguably the two next worst teams in the league.
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Time for BS to go. The only reason for him being here was to make us harder to play against and in turn give us a fighting chance of staying up. Unfortunately the opposite has happened and we're now firmly cut adrift from safety. We look absolutely clueless with and without the ball.
I can live with us not having the quality to compete (which in my almost 30 years of supporting the Albion has more often than not been the case), but I can't accept us having no bottle, no fight, no desire. That's the absolute minimum expected for anyone wearing our stripes. BS clearly can't instil that into the players, so lets move on and start planning for next season.
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Hard to argue with this. Other than the goal difference though, I don’t think we are in a vastly different position to that we would have been in. Bilic and SA have virtually identical PPG at this stage.
I'm not convinced, we were well in several games under Bilic yet we barely get a kick under Big Sam.
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Clueless had a far superior squad than Allardyce and that's the problem recruitment in the last few seasons has been inadequate with only in this window we seem to be trying to rectify previous mistakes.
Agree with the squad comment (better under Pardew) but there isn’t one area of improvement since Allardyce came in on the pitch.
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Do we pull the trigger or let him have until the last game of the season.
Pull the trigger and look for the replacement now. Why waste time watching that? We left it too late under Pardew.
It's clearly not working.
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Agree with the squad comment (better under Pardew) but there isn’t one area of improvement since Allardyce came in on the pitch.
The one thing I will rate him with though was beating the dings. We literally saved our one decent performance of the season for them. I genuinely thought it would be a bloodbath but somehow we won.
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I maintain he is likely to walk before we are officially relegated.
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Got it wrong tonight. That choice of midfield was suicidal and not necessary. They were blowing out their arses at 30 mins.
Livermore is beyond words.
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I maintain he is likely to walk before we are officially relegated.
Doubt it, he will know this is his last big pay day now. It's a rubbish silver lining.
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When Allardyce took over we were 3 points off safety. Since then the goals against column has exploded and we are now 10 points + from safety. The sacking of Bilic and appointment of Allardyce has been an abject failure.
Bilic had 13 games. In those we conceded 5 at Everton and 5 against Palace but in both went down to ten men early on. In the other 11 games we conceded 16 goals - an average of 1.45 goals against per game. Under Allardyce we conceded 3 against Villa but again had an early red card. In the remaining 9 games we have conceded 23 goals, an average of 2.56 goals per game against.
Allardyce has made us worse, the goals against column under him is unbelievably bad. Our tactics are now either non-existent or so basic (hoof it to channel, hoof it to the big man) that they are child like and hopeless. We have gone backwards in all of these areas.
-Team selection
-Tactics
-Shape and pattern of play
-Defensive record
-Attacking threat
-Commitment
Bilic got 90% out of the team, Allardyce is getting 70%. We needed 150% to survive.
Everyone who thought a new manager would help rather than hinder our season was wrong, we didn't have time to waste with a new coaching team getting to know the squad (which they still haven't got a clue about judging by the terrible team selections) and there was nothing wrong save for an abject lack of quality. We've sacked Bilic, still got that lack of quality, only now we have a manager who gets even less out of the team and before his new signings are through the door it is too late.
We are a text book in how not to run a football club.
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When Allardyce took over we were 3 points off safety. Since then the goals against column has exploded and we are now 10 points + from safety. The sacking of Bilic and appointment of Allardyce has been an abject failure.
Bilic had 13 games. In those we conceded 5 at Everton and 5 against Palace but in both went down to ten men early on. In the other 11 games we conceded 16 goals - an average of 1.45 goals against per game. Under Allardyce we conceded 3 against Villa but again had an early red card. In the remaining 9 games we have conceded 23 goals, an average of 2.56 goals per game against.
Allardyce has made us worse, the goals against column under him is unbelievably bad. Our tactics are now either non-existent or so basic (hoof it to channel, hoof it to the big man) that they are child like and hopeless. We have gone backwards in all of these areas.
-Team selection
-Tactics
-Shape and pattern of play
-Defensive record
-Attacking threat
-Commitment
Bilic got 90% out of the team, Allardyce is getting 70%. We needed 150% to survive.
Everyone who thought a new manager would help rather than hinder our season was wrong, we didn't have time to waste with a new coaching team getting to know the squad (which they still haven't got a clue about duding by the terrible team selections) and there was nothing wrong save for an abject lack of quality. We've sacked Bilic, still got that lack of quality, only now we have a manager who gets even less out of the team and before his new signings are through the door it is too late.
We are a text book in how not to run a football club.
Can’t argue with a word of that. Nobody can.
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I'm beginning to think i need to concede and say it hasn't worked but I'd like to see how we do v Spurs and Man U with all the new guys in. Today and Saturday is undoubtedly a massive blow. We need to pull of a number of surprises now. We have got no momentum since the wolves game. It's as if it didn't happen.
Basically i wrote of Spurs and ManU thinking we'd get 4-6 from these 2 games. We got 1. We now need to beat 1 of those two and preferably draw the other 1.
We needed players in at the start of window or at least before these 2 games.
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No, he's just being awarded a fair crack of the whip without opinions being influenced by prejudiced views like any new manager should be.
So after yet another failure how long does a fair crack of the whip last?
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When Allardyce took over we were 3 points off safety. Since then the goals against column has exploded and we are now 10 points + from safety. The sacking of Bilic and appointment of Allardyce has been an abject failure.
Bilic had 13 games. In those we conceded 5 at Everton and 5 against Palace but in both went down to ten men early on. In the other 11 games we conceded 16 goals - an average of 1.45 goals against per game. Under Allardyce we conceded 3 against Villa but again had an early red card. In the remaining 9 games we have conceded 23 goals, an average of 2.56 goals per game against.
Allardyce has made us worse, the goals against column under him is unbelievably bad. Our tactics are now either non-existent or so basic (hoof it to channel, hoof it to the big man) that they are child like and hopeless. We have gone backwards in all of these areas.
-Team selection
-Tactics
-Shape and pattern of play
-Defensive record
-Attacking threat
-Commitment
Bilic got 90% out of the team, Allardyce is getting 70%. We needed 150% to survive.
Everyone who thought a new manager would help rather than hinder our season was wrong, we didn't have time to waste with a new coaching team getting to know the squad (which they still haven't got a clue about duding by the terrible team selections) and there was nothing wrong save for an abject lack of quality. We've sacked Bilic, still got that lack of quality, only now we have a manager who gets even less out of the team and before his new signings are through the door it is too late.
We are a text book in how not to run a football club.
Why do you keep repeating this same post!? We get the message now.
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The only reason for not sacking him is financial. Substitutions tonight were farcicali Lvermore and Snodgrass in centre M/f is ridiculous so we take off our right sides player and put on another central player clueless. For those slagging off Phillip's take alook at Snodgrass he did absolutely half all for the last 75mins of the game.Taking Robinson off was Monday boggling . There is no sign of this superb organisation that is supposedly his strength .The game has left dinosaur football way behind
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Has he come out and spoken yet? Or is he locking them in again?
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Why do you keep repeating this same post!? We get the message now.
Albion59, I appreciate that consistency is a confusing trend on the message board.
That is the first time I have compared and posted the defensive statistics, which are stark and demonstrate our decline.
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When SA was appointed, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I wrote this in early January
I'm not sure that Allardyce is the answer.
I don't know enough about football tactics to discuss the pro's & cons of SA & SB, but SA's public condemnation wouldn't motivate me.
I'd expect hairdryer treatment in the dressing room, but equally, I'd also expect it to be left there.
SA might be a good tactician, but he's a poor boss, & IMO, he's not what we want.
So from that point a view, I'm hurting.
Now I want him gone
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I'm beginning to think i need to concede and say it hasn't worked but I'd like to see how we do v Spurs and Man U with all the new guys in. Today and Saturday is undoubtedly a massive blow. We need to pull of a number of surprises now. We have got no momentum since the wolves game. It's as if it didn't happen.
Basically i wrote of Spurs and ManU thinking we'd get 4-6 from these 2 games. We got 1. We now need to beat 1 of those two and preferably draw the other 1.
We needed players in at the start of window or at least before these 2 games.
Problem Is none of the players weve signed are defenders so will it make much difference :-[
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I honestly don’t think we could have got as bad as this had we reappointed Pulis, Pardew or Irvine.
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When SA was appointed, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I wrote this in early JanuaryNow I want him gone
I'm raging with what we have done this season and it's obvious that Allardyce has made us worse, but I'm still not calling for his head as it would be pointless. I'd expect there is a break clause in his contract upon relegation. The time to consider if a change is needed is the summer, which is approach the board should have taken with Bilic.
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Can't defend him , bringing HRK on for Diagne and old mother Grant for Robinson killed us .
Agreed. SA still finding out about HRK what 99.9% of us already know. Hope he doesn't take too much longer to find out. Unless Robinson was injured or shattered, I've no idea why he was subbed with Grant. Can anyone seriously tell me what Grant brings? Can he even cut in from the left?
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I'm raging with what we have done this season and it's obvious that Allardyce has made us worse, but I'm still not calling for his head as it would be pointless. I'd expect there is a break clause in his contract upon relegation. The time to consider if a change is needed is the summer, which is approach the board should have taken with Bilic.
If you're going to quote me, I'd prefer you to do the full version.
There is every reason for him to be gone.
With a decent person centred manager, we could give these players some belief.
It's clear to me that Allardyce is not going to turn this round, & we know there were other contenders, so a replacement wouldn't be difficult.
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Big Sam played his part in the Woking debacle, 30 years on he is residing over dark times again
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We are a text book in how not to run a football club.
This is the real concern. Allardyce will go but I have no confidence that the next appointment will be any better. We have no plan and no identity.
Honestly think we will struggle next season should - as is looking very likely - we be in the Championship.
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This season stinks of the time we were last in the prem.
Allardyce is turning out to be the same impact as Pardew.
The one thing I think that is going against us is the no fans, I don’t for one second believe the players would be this woeful with a packed hawthorns, we just wouldn’t allow it. They can go through the motions here, no stick and just go home and forget about it.
Sleep walking to the championship.
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Agreed. SA still finding out about HRK what 99.9% of us already know. Hope he doesn't take too much longer to find out. Unless Robinson was injured or shattered, I've no idea why he was subbed with Grant. Can anyone seriously tell me what Grant brings? Can he even cut in from the left?
Grant's a poor footballer , we've been done.
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This is the real concern. Allardyce will go but I have no confidence that the next appointment will be any better. We have no plan and no identity.
Honestly think we will struggle next season should - as is looking very likely - we be in the Championship.
We are heading the way of Blackburn when the Venkys took over
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We are heading the way of Blackburn when the Venkys took over
That's what happens to football clubs who sack managers left, right and centre. It sows chaos and decline.
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We are heading the way of Blackburn when the Venkys took over
Hopefully we're not, as things stand, the football club doesn't have any significant debt.
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Hopefully we're not, as things stand, the football club doesn't have any significant debt.
I dont think Blackburn were riddled with debt?
They never spent crazy amounts like Sunderland I dont think
I may be wrong
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We are seeing or learning nothing new each match. It's almost criminal we didn't improve the defence in the window.
I cant be too passionate about SA as he wont be here too long and he hasnt been given much scope to make long term additions. It is now safe to say his appointment has made us a worse team so far.
I wonder who Dowling and co will plump for next?
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I think it would be good to part ways if things haven't changed / improved in the next 3-4 games, ride it out a little longer he may walk by then to keep his record of not been relegated.
If this happens and we bring in someone who could work with the players and who will be here next year.
I'm sure to give the new manager a head start like that would also be beneficial as he would know if the players are good enough to play and which ones to bin off before the next season starts.
In a sense give us a longer pre-season with a few competitive games in the Big League.
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Exactly as expected. Still angry at the Sheffield debacle. This team under Allardyce has gone so far backwards it will need a time machine to get back. Ridiculous numbers of goals conceded, with pretty much every member of the team culpable, but some more than others who still seem to be on every team sheet. Awful to watch, no entertainment value whatsoever, few chances created fewer taken. Nothing to hope for nor take pleasure from. The only game we won and deserved to win was against the dingles and for me that bought him a little time. But he changed it next time and not for the better!
Pereira now the only player with any ability at all and when he gets taken out in the first tackle and generally pulled pushed or tripped in most other challenges without any protection from his team mates or referees like todays, we have nothing going for us.
Allardyce has killed or thrown away what talent the team had and simply done the impossible by making us worse than we were in every single aspect of the game. If you were going to sack Bilic then the only acceptable appointment would be a head coach who could improve on what we had. Allardyce is not that coach, he is not that man. He is here to destroy not improve. Sooner he is history the better.
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I dont think Blackburn were riddled with debt?
They never spent crazy amounts like Sunderland I dont think
I may be wrong
Allegedly the football club owed the owners £140 million
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We've actually gone backwards with Allardyce and if anyone can't see that with the sheer number of goals shipped, sorry, but in my view you are crazy.
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That's what happens to football clubs who sack managers left, right and centre. It sows chaos and decline.
I don't often agree with you but you are right about this.
Our next appointment needs to be given 3 years (atleast) to start building something. Hopefully that will be with new owners who might employ some people with footballing nous to get the basics right at all levels.
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Flippin go for gods sake
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I had high hopes for Sam , nobody gets teams out of trouble like he does . The players have proved time and again they are gutless , mentally weak too .
It maybe Sam's too old , his methods outdated ...I don't know just ashamed and fed up of this club now.
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I had high hopes for Sam , nobody gets teams out of trouble like he does . The players have proved time and again they are gutless , mentally weak too .
It maybe Sam's too old , his methods outdated ...I don't know just ashamed and fed up of this club now.
Very true. If Sam Allardyce cant find any backbone amongst this squad no one will. Split them up and sell them off. These will end up in a relegation fight in the EFL.
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Very true. If Sam Allardyce cant find any backbone amongst this squad no one will. Split them up and sell them off. These will end up in a relegation fight in the EFL.
12 players out of contract in the summer
Most of them won't be here next season
Thats part of the problem I would suggest
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I had high hopes for Sam , nobody gets teams out of trouble like he does . The players have proved time and again they are gutless , mentally weak too .
It maybe Sam's too old , his methods outdated ...I don't know just ashamed and fed up of this club now.
I agree mate, ashamed and fed up sums the club up in my eyes
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Big Sam talks about our defensive frailties in his after match interview. Why on earth did we not bring any new defenders in? Beggars belief.
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I had high hopes for Sam , nobody gets teams out of trouble like he does . The players have proved time and again they are gutless , mentally weak too .
It maybe Sam's too old , his methods outdated ...I don't know just ashamed and fed up of this club now.
To be fair to Allardyce never before has he taken over such a poor squad of players.
Of those players currently under contract I could only envisage Pereira starting in any other premier league team.
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Very true. If Sam Allardyce cant find any backbone amongst this squad no one will. Split them up and sell them off. These will end up in a relegation fight in the EFL.
Ah yes, Sam Allardyce, the great motivator and organiser of defences. None of this debacle is down to him then?
.........and we definitely won't be in a relegation fight in the EFL (as long as we don't keep on SA and appoint a half decent coach who understands the modern game).
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To be fair to Allardyce never before has he taken over such a poor squad of players.
Of those players currently under contract I could only envisage Pereira starting in any other premier league team.
Glenn Hoddle reckons SJ should be playing for a top 6 team ;D
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Ah yes, Sam Allardyce, the great motivator and organiser of defences. None of this debacle is down to him then?
.........and we definitely won't be in a relegation fight in the EFL (as long as we don't keep on SA and appoint a half decent coach who understands the modern game).
You cant make these lot fight for survival. It is simply not in them. They are weak. Ability doesnt come into it until they can get fit, find some backbone and give a damn. These lot do not care.
We lost to Brentford and Blackpool. Not sure how these lot are going to finish above 16th especially without Pereira. If you think Dowlings going to do a fantastic job in the summer thats a different story. I think he will bomb us out of contention and waste the money same as he and Bilic did this year.
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12 players out of contract in the summer
Most of them won't be here next season
Thats part of the problem I would suggest
They clearly are not foing their jobs. Look at the size and shape of them. Look at other football players. Unprofessional.
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Ah yes, Sam Allardyce, the great motivator and organiser of defences. None of this debacle is down to him then?
.........and we definitely won't be in a relegation fight in the EFL (as long as we don't keep on SA and appoint a half decent coach who understands the modern game).
He's made the mistake of trying to teach a poor midfield and defence to defend , naive of him to think that.
Just like all the others he's also fallen in the HRK trap too !
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Glenn Hoddle reckons SJ should be playing for a top 6 team ;D
Let’s hope one of them makes a big money offer come the end of the season.
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Big Sam talks about our defensive frailties in his after match interview. Why on earth did we not bring any new defenders in? Beggars belief.
What he can't explain is how he has taken a team conceding a fair amount of goals against and turned them into a team that is conceding a record amount of goals against. That's his responsibility and failure.
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We are heading the way of Blackburn when the Venkys took over
No we aren’t. Nothing like them. Unless we end up with a far more dangerous owner as opposed to a passive one with no money.,
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Oh and I’d like him to explain why he had Furlong, Peltier , Ivanovich and Gibbs all on the bench but Grosicki Edwards or Diangana ( possibly he was still injured ) weren’t
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Oh and I’d like him to explain why he had Furlong, Peltier , Ivanovich and Gibbs all on the bench but Grosicki Edwards or Diangana ( possibly he was still injured ) weren’t
I thought Edwards was out on loan
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I thought Edwards was out on loan
No still here
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No still here
He has gone to Luton on loan mate
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He has gone to Luton on loan mate
Didnt happen
Confirmed by Masi
Only outgoings last night were Field and Kipre
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He has gone to Luton on loan mate
They signed Tom Ince instead
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I thought I'd post an update:
Bilic's last 9 games:
W1 D3 L5 F5 A13
Allardyce's first 9 games:
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26
When Allardyce was appointed, whether we wanted him to be or not, I'm sure one thing the vast majority of Albion fans thought he would do is bring better defensive organisation and make us more difficult to beat. Yet, quite spectacularly, our defence has become much worse than was the case leading up to Bilic's dismissal. The same Bilic who some still roundly criticise for being clueless defensively. If Bilic was clueless, what must Allardyce be?
As a tactic, trying to sit on 1-0 leads became ineffective years ago. These days, if you let other teams have possession and territory it's highly likely that they'll find a way through. Some managers are seemingly incapable of learning that lesson.
We needed to win at least one of the games against Fulham and Sheff Utd, both of them really, and we've come out of them with 1 point. Allardyce's impact and performance has been catastrophic so far, which is hardly surprising as trying to fundamentally change the style of play of this squad was always going to be doomed to failure. Yet Allardyce expected them to adapt, rather than adapting himself. Incoming managers have to be able to have an impact with the current squad, rather than continuing to sink like a stone, otherwise there's no point bringing them in.
Allardyce's tenure has been a dismal failure - the cavalry might have now come riding over the hill, but Custer and his men have already been finished off.
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The end seems nigh for Big Sam. Amazes how this club have made the same mistakes , but this time it feels a whole lot worse.
I felt when appointed that he would improve us and make us tougher to beat, It's been the compete opposite . Strange team selections , tactics , have shown me that he is out of his depth and that know club should appoint him after us .
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Time's up on Sam.
WBA needs a complete reboot. Worst we have been in three decades.
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Time's up on Sam.
WBA needs a complete reboot. Worst we have been in three decades.
Since Woking....under Talbot and SAM
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If I was a player watching Allardyce on that touchline with some of the facial expressions he pulls would motivate me zero percent. The players should be self motivated, but the Manager is there to motivate and get the best out of these players. Allardyce can not do this.
I'm not 'pro-Bilic' but atleast his players looked like they enjoyed playing for him. He was always animated and invested on the touchline. I feel if he was still in charge we would have picked up a few more points atleast. Even though it still wouldn't be enough.
I can't see Allardyce staying on for much longer. I feel he will put his 'not being relegated' status above the club and the players.
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Since Woking....under Talbot and SAM
That Woking match is really burnt into your soul isnt it? ;D
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This is exactly like it was with Pardew. How can we make the same mistake again. Dont we learn!
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This is exactly like it was with Pardew. How can we make the same mistake again. Dont we learn!
No, this is WBA FC. We repeat the same terrible mistakes time and time again
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That Woking match is really burnt into your soul isnt it? ;D
Still haven't got over it..... ;D
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Still haven't got over it..... ;D
I've never forgotten it mate but i definitely dont have it as bad as you do ;D
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That Woking match is really burnt into your soul isnt it? ;D
I was there too and can remember the crowd's reaction when we scored (Darren Bradley I think it was) to bring the score back to a more "respectable" 2-4!
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No, this is WBA FC. We repeat the same terrible mistakes time and time again
Repeat it and still somehow make it feel worse than the previous time.
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I was there too and can remember the crowd's reaction when we scored (Darren Bradley I think it was) to bring the score back to a more "respectable" 2-4!
I remember listening to it on the wireless with my grandad and he was ashamed of us ;D
Then got it in the neck from the Villa kids in the school playground on the Monday for a week
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Totally understand the sacking of Bilic , I can also see why they went for Sam . On paper he's ideal for what we needed but it's just not worked out , i think he got lured in by one or two of the usual suspects to be honest with their half performances and empty words . It looks like he's maybe just a little too old now so it looks like damage limitation now , might be best for a parting of ways.
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Repeat it and still somehow make it feel worse than the previous time.
Thats very true. I even expect them to snatch defeat from victory yet it still hurts
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No, this is WBA FC. We repeat the same terrible mistakes time and time again
Let me get this straight. Are you saying that appointing Allardyce was a terrible mistake? Fair play if you are.
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Let me get this straight. Are you saying that appointing Allardyce was a terrible mistake? Fair play if you are.
I never said that.
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I am so annoyed with Allardyce on tonight. I've tried to swallow my disappointment at Bilic leaving and have tried to get behind him.
It's not just losing, as you can lose unluckily. It's the style of play.
1) How on earth can you bench Gallagher and play Livermore? Gallagher is head and shoulders above him.
2) What has Phillips down to warrant starting? People moaned at Bilic giving him just 10mins.
3) Pereira on the wing? Everyone knows he's at his most dangerous in the "hole".
4) Subs of Grant and HRK, why? What threat do they offer?
5) Where are Diangana and Grosicki? They are our most talented wingers.
In mitigation Maitland-Niles and Yokuslu have only just been signed. If they don't start at Spurs then I've just lost the final shred of respect I have for him.
What exactly has he been doing for the last 6 weeks? Why hadn't he figured out who the weakest players are?
Possession levels 15% lower than previous Manager.
Why are we playing defensive dour football when we need 3point wins to stay up not 1point draws.
The man is looking every bit as bad as Pulis ever was.
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I never said that.
Okay, my bad. You had my hopes raised for a minute there ;D
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Okay, my bad. You had my hopes raised for a minute there ;D
He definitely got it wrong tonight. Was a baffling selection, Bilic-esque.
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He definitely got it wrong tonight. Was a baffling selection, Bilic-esque.
when did Bilic ever prefer Livermore over Gallagher?
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when did Bilic ever prefer Livermore over Gallagher?
That selection of the team as a whole not an individual. Bilic played them both together.
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As he gone yet......
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I just can't understand why people see what happened under Pulis and Pardew and then think "Allardyce let's have a bit of that"
Just on the basis that everyone of the old school British managers on the carousel have failed and left a trail of broken clubs in their wake. With the possible exceptions of Hodgson and Moyes and even here you would have caveat it with the fact that as soon as either broke out of the mid-level Premier League clubs which have been their bread and butter things did not go well this generation of British Managers is now a bust.
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Evident from the Fulham game 2nd half when we go further up the pitch we look a much better team, god knows the thinking behind the 2nd half today teams are too good on the ball now and will find a way through, you can’t be camped on your own 25 yard line in today’s football and try and see the game out football has moved on.
It’s clear the players aren’t taking / don’t believe in his methods, his record since taking over speaks for it’s self. There’s a reason the likes of Mourinho, Allardyce, Pulis, Bruce aren’t finding as much success in today’s game, the game has moved on & evolved and it’s clear as day to see the ones who have adapted (Moyes, Hodgson) & those that refuse to adapt and are still ploughing on with the same methods they used 10+ years ago (Mourinho, Allardyce, Pulis, Bruce).
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That selection of the team as a whole not an individual. Bilic played them both together.
Bilic had to deploy 1 of Livermore or Sawyers to play with Gallagher, there was no one else.
Nothing was ever bad as playing Livermore and Snodgrass together in midfield, combined age 65.
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Allardyce has Sundays game to play his best midfield of Maitand-Niles, Okay, Gallagher, Diangana, Pereira.
Although tonight is immensely frustrating, he has the saving grace of players only being signed yesterday.
If we see the likes of Livermore, Phillips, Sawyers, Grant again then we aren't even getting to 20pts and I'll be calling for him to be sacked........
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I never wanted Big Sam in the first place as i didnt think he suited our squad and wanted some long term planning, however i also understood the board arent looking past the summer and if you want a man who has a track record of keeping clubs up, he is that man.
I really have wanted him to do well, and to say that hasnt happened is an understatement but what has really disappointed me is the one thing you are normally guarenteed is organisation, for some reason we have done the exact opposite, Tonight i would only describe the ambition and organisation as cowardly, it was like Pulis ball without the defensive structure and set piece threat.
I dont understand how such an experienced coach as Allardyce who after 6 weeks in charge, letting in numerous goals in that time, continually tries to set us defensively, its like he knows our biggest weakness but then encourages opposition to play on that weakness.
The players arent good enough and there are a few occasions this season where you could question their attitude, but i would also say, when your being asked to whack the ball from back to front playing the most basic brand of football in the top league in this country, its an insult to those players.
Our best performances this season have been second half v Liverpool and the Wolves game where we actually tried to pose some threat to the opposition, we were still cautious but at least tried to play football and get forward with some skill and technique instead of just booting it into space, coincidence we played that way and got positive results.
We are rubbish in defense but by hoofing it back to the opposition, we just encourage the opposition to get at us, if we sound defensively could understand it more, but as we are not, there is no logic!
We got in the lead against Fulham and instead of going for a 3rd and killing them off, we tried to defend what we had, we did the same v Sheffield United tonight, 1-0 just before the break, they were on the ropes, we should of been sensible second half but tried to get a two goal lead and kill the game, teams down the bottom struggle to get back from that and we have let Fulham and Sheffield United off, its just shocking game management from the players but they are following orders from the manager.
I dont think it matters we have Maitland-Niles and Yosulu available v Spurs, if you just whack the ball over them it doesnt matter who plays there, Livermore is poor but we had a good footballer in the middle tonight in Snodgrass yet chose to just bypass him and whack it forward, and based on the story so far, there is nothing to say we will change that with the new midfielders.
I really have tried to be positive about Allardyce, keep thinking the next game will be the one where it clicks but after witnessing how we setup, how the players play, i am not convinced the players are buying into his methods and it wreaks of Pardew all over again.
I think we have to get a win out the next two games and in the other game have to offer some positive signs, if we only get a point or no points, Brighton will likely add even a point over the next few games and that lead becomes even bigger.
If we dont win one of the next two, i would hope that Big Sam does the honourable thing and walks or we get rid, i dont normally like managers going so quick but he was brought in for a short term gain, it hasnt happened yet and time is running out, no point saying if we lose the next two give him the Burnley and Brighton game, because the performances and results the last two games have not suggested it will be any different whoever we play.
I really hope he reassesses how he is going about things and that over the next couple of games we get a win and some performances, otherwise i think its time to part ways.
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Bilic had to deploy 1 of Livermore or Sawyers to play with Gallagher, there was no one else.
Nothing was ever bad as playing Livermore and Snodgrass together in midfield, combined age 65.
I have already said that was baffling and wrong of him mate.
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It’s really not working - struggling to see any signs of improvement throughout his brief spell in charge so far. I accept we need to see judge him-properly when the new lads are in but that does not disguise how woeful we are.
I often said that Bilic never maximised resources but neither has Allardyce - if truth be told you can clearly make a case that Bilic got more from them than Allardyce has managed.
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Allardyce's post-match comments to BBC: "You have to see times out. I thought we were looking good from that point of view. We could have avoided both goals so we ended up losing a game. You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are defending. Overall, our defending today was very good. Those two moments could have been avoided and it's cost us two goals".
??? ::)
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It’s really not working - struggling to see any signs of improvement throughout his brief spell in charge so far. I accept we need to see judge him-properly when the new lads are in but that does not disguise how woeful we are.
I often said that Bilic never maximised resources but neither has Allardyce - if truth be told you can clearly make a case that Bilic got more from them than Allardyce has managed.
I agree with most of your post but the bit in bold is where you fall down IMV. Rather than accepting that no manager gets 100% out of his squad you bought into the idea that another manager would do better rather than accept that the squad wasn’t good enough and that Bilic was making a fair go of it, hamstrung with the players he had; having got them up early. That is born out by Allardyce with all of his years of wisdom talking over and our defence turning into a car crash. I don’t think Allardyce is a bad manager, he’s alright, his style isn’t for everyone but he’s not been able to get as much out of the squad as Bilic did.
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Allardyce's post-match comments to BBC: "You have to see times out. I thought we were looking good from that point of view. We could have avoided both goals so we ended up losing a game. You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are defending. Overall, our defending today was very good. Those two moments could have been avoided and it's cost us two goals".
??? ::)
Woulda shoulda coulda ::)â¸
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Allardyce's post-match comments to BBC: "You have to see times out. I thought we were looking good from that point of view. We could have avoided both goals so we ended up losing a game. You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are defending. Overall, our defending today was very good. Those two moments could have been avoided and it's cost us two goals".
??? ::)
He’s talking complete rubbish, which is depressing.
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What I can’t get my head around is the impression and partial evidence under Bilic was that we had no organisation/game plan it seemed very off the cuff.
You know for a fact that Sam is ramming home about defensive organisation but we’re conceding considerably more goals than under Bilic.
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What's wrong with us going to Spurs, playing all our better players and going at them, they aren't that good, they're missing Kane which is at least 30% of their team.
Tonight was just a mystery why Allardyce selected that team and played that way with 30% possession against a team that's bottom.
I dont mind us losing, I want to see us having a go with all our best players on the pitch and in the right positions. Then we look ourselves in the mirror and say we have done all we can.
Tonight WBA fans have been cheated with that "performance".
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Allardyce's post-match comments to BBC: "You have to see times out. I thought we were looking good from that point of view. We could have avoided both goals so we ended up losing a game. You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are defending. Overall, our defending today was very good. Those two moments could have been avoided and it's cost us two goals".
??? ::)
Has he ever taken responsibility for anything?
"You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are managing" might be a fresh alternative...
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Can’t argue with a word of that. Nobody can.
I can what's duding? That's the only word I would context though😁
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Allardyce so far has failed to adapt his methods and be flexible with the resources at his disposal.
The fans have been more than patient, in effect intimating the crushing defeats were down to poor quality players.
Well now Dowling has signed 4 good quality recruits there is no hiding place any longer. He should be able to get back to at least what Bilic achieved in terms of results and performances.
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It is mad that an organisational, back to basics manager has seen his side concede at-least two goals in 9 of his first 10 games. I’d love to know what they are doing on the training field, as he has some how managed to make a side that was already fairly flimsy defensively under Bilic, somehow even worse at defending.
Standaman’s comments pretty much sum it up, the game is up for a lot of the old school British coaches but we as a club are still going for them rather than trying to be a bit more imaginative. It’s painful to see.
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Allardyce keeps saying we need to get to 38 points, will be lucky to get to 20 the way things are going.
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What I can’t get my head around is the impression and partial evidence under Bilic was that we had no organisation/game plan it seemed very off the cuff.
You know for a fact that Sam is ramming home about defensive organisation but we’re conceding considerably more goals than under Bilic.
Think about it. This is young team with very limited experience of the league. They are used to playing progressive possession based football on the front foot. We had a defined pattern of play with nice triangles and clever switches of play. We tried to hold a high line. The players had a huge bond with Bilic and his coaching team. Then Allardyce gets appointed which deflates them and try’s to coach them to play a low block, which is alien to everything they have been doing and believing in. Out goes the multi-lingual coaching team and in comes a old school scouser (Sammy Lee) barking out basic commands of lump it into the channel or to the striker. It’s mental and somewhat inevitable that it’s back fired. Players like Krov who had a real impact off the bench at Brighton are bypassed and we revert to a old school British approach with limited aging players playing direct football.
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I wonder if Sam and all the players know how the fans feel, or do the players even care, is it 'just a job, a stepping stone' for them. Only if they knew how we'd feel.
No heart, no bottle, no desire, no fight. Pathetic bunch of cowards, good enough or not you give everything for the shirt, not these half arsed performances. If we was in the stands, theyd know exactly how we feel and im sure when we are back, the fans will let the players/board know exactly how we feel. I would add SA to that, but doubt he'll be here for much longer.
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Fans will never see Sam in our dugout, we should be thankful for small mercies I suppose!
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Allardyce's post-match comments to BBC: "You have to see times out. I thought we were looking good from that point of view. We could have avoided both goals so we ended up losing a game. You can't not do your job correctly, particularly when you are defending. Overall, our defending today was very good. Those two moments could have been avoided and it's cost us two goals".
??? ::)
A complete lack of awareness. He's asking a group of not so good defenders to essentially defend on their own penalty box for 60/70 mins. Of course they are going to make mistakes.
How about take a bit of pressure off them, play higher up and try to keep the ball a bit - might just help to create some more chances at the other end too.
Also ridiculous to call out the missed Robinson chance as the reason we didn't win the game. I get it, yes maybe if that goes in they don't come back from it...but it would just be masking the same awful performance and tactics.
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Also ridiculous to call out the missed Robinson chance as the reason we didn't win the game. I get it, yes maybe if that goes in they don't come back from it...but it would just be masking the same awful performance and tactics.
Agreed - just the minor issue of it being offside
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A complete lack of awareness. He's asking a group of not so good defenders to essentially defend on their own penalty box for 60/70 mins. Of course they are going to make mistakes.
How about take a bit of pressure off them, play higher up and try to keep the ball a bit - might just help to create some more chances at the other end too.
Also ridiculous to call out the missed Robinson chance as the reason we didn't win the game. I get it, yes maybe if that goes in they don't come back from it...but it would just be masking the same awful performance and tactics.
Simply deflecting from his own inability to get tactics right, team selection right of coach the defence effectively! Wrong man, wrong time !
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Glenn Hoddle reckons SJ should be playing for a top 6 team ;D
And me the sooner the better. how much would we have to give them to take him do you reckon?
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I didn't think anyone could be worse than Pardew.....
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Well we have hired Irvine, Pulis, Pardew, Allardyce. I assume we just need To hire Bruce for the full house :)
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Mark Hughes must be scheduled for some time in the future - after all he was allegedly interviewed this time!
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Allardyce is only here for the money and is only doing a half ass job of it as Paul Merson said blokes at home in his slippers under the wife's feet Albion call who ain't going to turn down 40 k a week. Dowling has sold us a pup.
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Look at Sam’s comments after the match. He basically only talks about the new players coming in. You can see what’s coming easily. If we start to have marginally better results with the new signings, but not nearly better enough to contend for survival, he will at some point jump ship and talk about how with his signings we were on pace to survive but too big a hole, too late.. yada yada.
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Look at Sam’s comments after the match. He basically only talks about the new players coming in. You can see what’s coming easily. If we start to have marginally better results with the new signings, but not nearly better enough to contend for survival, he will at some point jump ship and talk about how with his signings we were on pace to survive but too big a hole, too late.. yada yada.
When and however he goes ( if it is in this season ) just get SGM in as caretaker and take time about selecting a manager for next season.
In other words don't just give it to Mozza to run.....................please.
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When and however he goes ( if it is in this season ) just get SGM in as caretaker and take time about selecting a manager for next season.
In other words don't just give it to Mozza to run.....................please.
As much as I dislike Allardyce I would leave him where he is until the R goes up next to our name. Let him play with his new toys whatever the situation won't get any better but it won't get much worse because it simply can't. Bringing in a new permanent coach now is just saddling them with a toxic situation and burning their goodwill with the fans However as soon as the R goes up I'd have Allardyce out the door and the new man in so he can start working with the squad.
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What I can’t get my head around is the impression and partial evidence under Bilic was that we had no organisation/game plan it seemed very off the cuff.
You know for a fact that Sam is ramming home about defensive organisation but we’re conceding considerably more goals than under Bilic.
If he is, he's shouting through a shut door.
At the moment we don't look anymore organised at the back than we have all season.
I'm not really sure what the instructions are.
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Who on earth appointed him?
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If he is, he's shouting through a shut door.
At the moment we don't look anymore organised at the back than we have all season.
I'm not really sure what the instructions are.
Watching thr second goal back last night there was no organisation. Ajaji runs out to the touch line and never gets back in position before the cross arrives, then Bartley is then next with both full backs beyond him the central area. Organised they are not and of we are to play so defensive then when should have brought in better defenders. The only way to play with weak defenders is to play up the pitch and keep the ball the oppositions half, then the defenders have less chance to make mistakes. Asking poor defenders to defend for the entire second half in their own box was asking for trouble. That has to be on Allardyce head, I didn't see once any of his coaching staff asking for the team to move up then pitch.
If that's the type of football for the rest of season I won't be watching us. Two chances created in 90 mins against the worst team in the league. No thanks, its dinosaur football.
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I want Allardyce to stay for the rest of the season and not slink off. He was meant to be the great defensive organiser so he should have dome better than Bilic even with the same players? To spend anymore cash on another snake oil salesman who claims he can prevent relegation is just a waste of money.
With every game we lose, Lai's asset shrinks. It's fascinating (at least more so than the current football) following whether he sells up and how long it would take before he cracks.
Still concerned about our real estate assets. I would rather reset and re-organise over a few years in the Championship intact rather than gamble them on the wages of old mercenaries in the attempt to get back into the EPL.
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Just watching the full post match interview , Allardyce looks desperate . That remark about Billy Sharp about to be subbed......dear me.
I was fully behind appointing him.with his record but this looks doomed .
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I'd rather he went and give someone else a try - they can't do any worse and they might improve morale enough that we don't have a mass exodus of Pierera\Diangana\Robinson etc. Unlikely I know.
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As many people are saying, the biggest issue with SA is a lack of defensive organisation and shape. These are basics who a Roy Hodgson would've sorted (he did with) in a handful of games. Then you build on top of this. We just seem an absolute mess, devoid of confidence and it does look like the players just aren't having SA. SA's body language speakers volumes to me - the Fulham match , he spent large period with his arms folded, hood up, hiding a bit. It's almost like he feels it's not his mess. I don't think his heart is in this 'challenge' (impossible task) so the sooner we're relegated the better so that we can all move on to next season. Whether it's with SA I very very much doubt but you never know. I can't see the fans in the Hawthorns putting up with this rubbish so why should we now - no ability to vent vocally I guess.
Bad times and I think we'll all have to suffer some more kickings before the season is out and/ or before Lai leaves and we can reset the club completely ..........again.
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Allardyce to me seems like a bloke who doesn’t really want to be here anyway.
I don’t think he realised how poor the squad actually was, and since being here he’s probably realised he doesn’t have the drive to try to make it work.
In hindsight it was the right decision to give him a go but it’s not working. We are conceding more than before and apart from the wolves game we just look dreadful.
I don’t think the fitness levels have helped this squad but that lies with Bilic and his team.
I think we may say a slight change in performances in the next few weeks once he beds the new signings in, but I don’t think it will change the fact we are destined to finish bottom.
Last night Sheffield United outrun and outfought us, they wanted to win that game and the believed they would, i don’t for one second we had that same feeling.
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Who on earth appointed him?
Whoever is running the club and therein lies a major part of the problem!As far as is possible to tell there is no direct leadership on a day to day basis. Dowling gets plenty of mentions but that could be because most of what we hear is just the footballing side . Ken he seems outwardly at least to do very little and it appears to me he is just a conduit for Lai. Jenkins , yes I know he left/ retired but he did say he was on hand in an advisory capacity if needed ? . Until this shambles gets sorted it will be difficult to get the footballing side on a better footing and we will continue with the failed revolving door policy
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Watching thr second goal back last night there was no organisation. Ajaji runs out to the touch line and never gets back in position before the cross arrives, then Bartley is then next with both full backs beyond him the central area. Organised they are not and of we are to play so defensive then when should have brought in better defenders. The only way to play with weak defenders is to play up the pitch and keep the ball the oppositions half, then the defenders have less chance to make mistakes. Asking poor defenders to defend for the entire second half in their own box was asking for trouble. That has to be on Allardyce head, I didn't see once any of his coaching staff asking for the team to move up then pitch.
If that's the type of football for the rest of season I won't be watching us. Two chances created in 90 mins against the worst team in the league. No thanks, its dinosaur football.
I'm glad someone else noticed that, it's astonishing how often the defence get pulled out of position.
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Think about it. This is young team with very limited experience of the league. They are used to playing progressive possession based football on the front foot. We had a defined pattern of play with nice triangles and clever switches of play. We tried to hold a high line. The players had a huge bond with Bilic and his coaching team. Then Allardyce gets appointed which deflates them and try’s to coach them to play a low block, which is alien to everything they have been doing and believing in. Out goes the multi-lingual coaching team and in comes a old school scouser (Sammy Lee) barking out basic commands of lump it into the channel or to the striker. It’s mental and somewhat inevitable that it’s back fired. Players like Krov who had a real impact off the bench at Brighton are bypassed and we revert to a old school British approach with limited aging players playing direct football.
This post absolutely nails the problem
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Allardyce to me seems like a bloke who doesn’t really want to be here anyway.
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I don’t think the fitness levels have helped this squad but that lies with Bilic and his team.
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So Allardyce has not been able to implement a new, improved fitness regimen over the weeks he has been in charge? Does he need an entire season?
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Allardyce just cheated the fans last night by starting with Livermore and Phillips / bringing on HRK and Grant.
Is this really the limit of his football knowledge and ability?
Going to Brammall Lane and parking the bus against a team below us in the table! Even when we had a fortuitous lead instead of being brave and going for the 2nd we just sat back and invited pressure.
It's not the defeat itself but everything about the lack of intent to win a football match.
So for me he is on his last chance with Spurs on Sunday. Due to the SU fixture having close proximity to the transfer window and without all new signings available, I'll see what he does with selection for this one. For crying out loud try to win, a draw does nothing for our predicament. Just have a go!!!
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So Allardyce has not been able to implement a new, improved fitness regimen over the weeks he has been in charge? Does he need an entire season?
80% of this squad has been with Bilic for around 18months. Sam has been here around 6 weeks. Only one of those weeks have we not had 2/3 games. I’m not defending the performances under Sam as they have been dreadful, but he probably hasn’t had a chance to work on fitness levels in training when he’s more than likely trying to sort the team out with the basics. (Not doing a good job by the way).
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As many people are saying, the biggest issue with SA is a lack of defensive organisation and shape. These are basics who a Roy Hodgson would've sorted (he did with) in a handful of games. Then you build on top of this. We just seem an absolute mess, devoid of confidence and it does look like the players just aren't having SA. SA's body language speakers volumes to me - the Fulham match , he spent large period with his arms folded, hood up, hiding a bit. It's almost like he feels it's not his mess. I don't think his heart is in this 'challenge' (impossible task) so the sooner we're relegated the better so that we can all move on to next season. Whether it's with SA I very very much doubt but you never know. I can't see the fans in the Hawthorns putting up with this rubbish so why should we now - no ability to vent vocally I guess.
Bad times and I think we'll all have to suffer some more kickings before the season is out and/ or before Lai leaves and we can reset the club completely ..........again.
Roy had much better defenders to work with at the time. It would be interesting to see if he could do anything with these players but we will never know
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Fitness is somewhat irrelevant if the team you select / tactics deployed are both totally wrong!
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The complete lack of fight and spirit in these under Allardyce and Bilic is frightning , no fight no bottle .
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Roy had much better defenders to work with at the time. It would be interesting to see if he could do anything with these players but we will never know
This team is better suited to playing offensively rather than defensively.
Shame then that Allardyce can't make the necessary adjustments to his footballing philosophy. Allardyce = inflexible, yes 100%.
And Allardyce has moaned that he was unjustly removed from previous jobs to an unfair label of a long ball merchant / fire fighter. Last night he did nothing to dispel that tag whatsoever.
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Bought in as some sort of Messiah but it's clearly not working. Seems unable to motivate the players who to me look terrified at times. At 67 he needs to find solutions or this could be his last big appointment.
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I want Allardyce to stay for the rest of the season and not slink off. He was meant to be the great defensive organiser so he should have dome better than Bilic even with the same players? To spend anymore cash on another snake oil salesman who claims he can prevent relegation is just a waste of money.
With every game we lose, Lai's asset shrinks. It's fascinating (at least more so than the current football) following whether he sells up and how long it would take before he cracks.
Still concerned about our real estate assets. I would rather reset and re-organise over a few years in the Championship intact rather than gamble them on the wages of old mercenaries in the attempt to get back into the EPL.
totally agree, we have thrown yet another load of cash down the drain this recent window (wages agents etc) and it will be a reason for lack of investment / rebuild next season. Club chasing Chairmans unreal expectations, laughable if not so bloody predictable.
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totally agree, we have thrown yet another load of cash down the drain this recent window (wages agents etc) and it will be a reason for lack of investment / rebuild next season. Club chasing Chairmans unreal expectations, laughable if not so bloody predictable.
We haven't seen 3 of the recruits in action yet. Dowling has brought in 5 players (too late in January BTW) but 5 players all the same. That's far more than what most other clubs have done due to the Covid restrictions.
Dowling's work is done. We have a right to hold Allardyce to account for his performance between now and season end. We should be going down kicking and screaming and with some fight. Not just give up, shrug shoulders and give the Manager a free pass.
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I know this is something that I will have to be careful of asking.
But, Do you think he wil be gone before the end of the season?
What is the likelihood of us sacking him?
Or do you think he will walk to keep his record intact?
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Really want him out of our club ASAP.
If he’s not going to be here next season get rid now as he’s looking increasingly clueless game after game.
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I know this is something that I will have to be careful of asking.
But, Do you think he wil be gone before the end of the season?
What is the likelihood of us sacking him?
Or do you think he will walk to keep his recod intact?
I think he will go before the end of the season and I hope he does. The simple reason we need a rebuild and a structure to take us forward over the next two, three, four seasons. Allardyce is 66 he's not the man for that.
I know the man I'd want ideally, but there are others who we could turn to.
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I still believe in BS and his project and should we go down would like to give him a chance at promotion.
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I still believe in BS amd his project and should we go down would like to give him a chance at promotion.
Good grief, you are one of a few indeed. What on earth would it take for you to lose that belief?
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Good grief, you are one of a few indeed. What on earth would it take for you to lose that belief?
If we are not within a shout of promotion come Halloween/Bonfire Night.
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Roy had much better defenders to work with at the time. It would be interesting to see if he could do anything with these players but we will never know
Yes we had much better squad full stop but I would've expected a more solid looking team unde SA and we look the opposite, we're so bad at defending as a team, we're bordering on pathetic
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I know this is something that I will have to be careful of asking.
But, Do you think he wil be gone before the end of the season?
What is the likelihood of us sacking him?
Or do you think he will walk to keep his recod intact?
i would like to see him gone, he has done a first class job of damaging player morale, my concern is it will be irrevocably broken if he sees the season out.
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I think he will go before the end of the season and I hope he does. The simple reason we need a rebuild and a structure to take us forward over the next two, three, four seasons. Allardyce is 66 he's not the man for that.
I know the man I'd want ideally, but there are others who we could turn to.
Totally agree, I was trying to work it out, I think we will have about 9 players to replace which is a heck of a lot to do in pre-season. It makes more sense to bring a younger manager or one we will stick with for a few years as you have said (instead of binning them off after every 18 months). It will give the new guy a better understanding on what he needs and more time to get it done, instead of just in the pre-season.
Let start pre-season now!!! :)
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Totally agree, I was trying to work it out, I think we will have about 9 players to replace which is a heck of a lot to do in pre-season. It makes more sense to bring a younger manager or one we will stick with for a few years as you have said (instead of binning them off after every 18 months). It will give the new guy a better understanding on what he needs and more time to get it done, instead of just in the pre-season.
Let start pre-season now!!! :)
How do we stop the same happening again? We hire a manager, gets us to play some nice football, somehow gets a work in progress team promoted. Board don't back him, set of poor results, gets sacked.
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Totally agree, I was trying to work it out, I think we will have about 9 players to replace which is a heck of a lot to do in pre-season. It makes more sense to bring a younger manager or one we will stick with for a few years as you have said (instead of binning them off after every 18 months). It will give the new guy a better understanding on what he needs and more time to get it done, instead of just in the pre-season.
Let start pre-season now!!! :)
I have no confidence that West Bromwich Albion will bring in a new manager and back him for 3/6 years. None whatsoever. Same old bring new guy in goes boobs up for half a dozen games out he goes and another "old boy" brought in for similar results. Might as well let SA put a team together of at least looking like a Champ/Prem outfit rather than a collection of boring missfits.
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I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing still. I also hope he stays beyond the end of the season. This team needs breaking up. They don't need a best mate they need a boss. The outfield signings we've made address the spine of the team. Something neglected for 3 seasons. Despite still awaiting the major upturn in results I feel a lot more confident we've got someone that knows what they're doing in charge.
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How do we stop the same happening again? We hire a manager, gets us to play some nice football, somehow gets a work in progress team promoted. Board don't back him, set of poor results, gets sacked.
The only way that happens is to gain access to more money.
We need someone to come in who understands the budgetary restrictions and can work within it.
I think Bilic would have bought himself more time if we hadn't finished last season poorly, it made the bad run even longer, but he publicly criticised the club and board and I think that, ultimately sealed his fate. It's ok blaming the board but they were as transparent as they could be about the budget.
Whilst we have this owner, the only way forward is a completely united front from DoF through to coach and ultimately players.
I think Allardyce will want to stay as he knows he will start the season with a top 6 chance of promotion, minimum. Personally I would look at someone younger and try and get them to buy into the structure and limitations of the club.
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I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing still. I also hope he stays beyond the end of the season. This team needs breaking up. They don't need a best mate they need a boss. The outfield signings we've made address the spine of the team. Something neglected for 3 seasons. Despite still awaiting the major upturn in results I feel a lot more confident we've got someone that knows what they're doing in charge.
I think this sums up my opinion with it all at the moment. I think we have left ourselves too much to do in regards to survival but i do think as time goes on we might start to get a bit better (its the hope that kills you?).
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While I agree with most of the posts on here about his tactics and team selection, I definitely agree with the last couple of posts more.
Even if Allardyce gets the team to play his way from here on in we still go down.
The squad isn't suited to his style, and even playing a style that is absolutely suited to his style we still go down cause the players are simply not good enough.
Dowling should be the first out the door. Yes the budget was limited but even with the small budget we've done badly with what we had. Who's to say if we spent £100m we would've brought in quality?
Second to that it's his decision to bring in a manager who's style of play is in stark contrast to the preferred style of the majority of the players.
So while Allardyce is making mistakes I'm not attributing too much blame to him but would like to see him gone (along with most the players) come the end of the season. We need a total refresh - unbelievably more so than last time we went down.
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I do think once the new signings bed in we will improve. It will be too little too late ultimately, but both Bilic and Allardyce have operated with a fairly awful squad this season thus far and Allardyce can shoulder no blame for the state of the squad.
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I am probably being deluded and in the minority but despite how bad things are, i havent given up on Big Sam just yet.
My view (and i am tempting fate) is that surely it cant get any worse, Allardyce himself keeps saying about the individual errors, surely at this stage he now understands that the players arent good enough to be able to defend for the whole game, eventually after enough pressure they crumble.
Iwould expect him to be looking how we overcome that and the only way is to keep the ball better (ie - not whack it forward to nobody) and pose a threat ourselves, if he looks back at our games the best we have been is Liverpool 2nd half and Wolves, where yes we didnt have as much of the ball as them but we had more than when just try to defend and more importantly, we actually played some decent counter attacking football and posed a threat.
I cant believe such an experienced coach will persist with something that isnt working any longer, he now has a couple of new faces which should help and i expect to see a change in approach from now on, not us becoming the next Man City, we will always be conservative and thats fine, but i hope he gets us showing that we can offer more than we have been.
He must be quite embarrassed to be associated with some of our performances under him, this is Big Sam, he has quite a big ego, and as bad as the players have been and at times lacked effort, he also has to take his share of the blame and start to get some momemtum right away.
Because unfortunately for him, as we have only take 1 point from 6 against our rivals, it now means we have to be getting points against Tottenham and Man United, because of how desperate the situation is, i think we need to win one of those games or at least draw them both, i think anything other than at least 2 points and he could well be gone, if we get a similar performance to Villa, Leeds, Arsenal, Man City, Fulham, Sheffield United this sunday v Tottenham, it may well happen sooner rather than later.
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I am not Allardyce our either (partly because I hate the impatience of modern football) but things just don’t seem right. While points per game are fairly similar to Bilic the performances have been pretty abject (bar Liverpool and Wolves). I don’t expect 70s Brazil as we didn’t get that under Bilic this season but the manner of the defeats is alarming...
2 things that are baffling to me.
1. We still cannot defend. I know it’s about the players etc but we actually looked better at the back under Bilic. We have let a minimum of 2 goals in per game Under Sam.
2. Second his team selection. This board is rarely unanimous but we are unified behind the Livermore is shot banner and yet he plays him and puts Gallagher on the bench. People say it’s because Gallagher was poor against Fulham well Livermore has been poor since Leicester at home...
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The defence looking better under Bilic is simple. We held onto the ball longer so the defence was under less pressure.
Currently the defence sit so deep, more often than not inside our own box, that they're virtually useless until a ball is crossed in. The midfield can't push on and press because it leaves a massive gap in behind. Any ball between the lines leaves the defence exposed with attackers on the edge of the box. So we end up with everyone 40 yards from our goal, no out ball and no way to get up the pitch. Even if the midfield get the ball, they're 30 yards from their own goal - who can they play it to? Any loss of possession there is super risky, so we end up laying it back to the defence to smash up the channels. Then we start it all over again.
Our goal last night came from a rare moment when we did push on a bit and win possession further up the pitch.
The days of "if it's not in the box they can't score" are long gone. The quality of attackers has improved so much that eventually they'll create 1 or 2 clear chances - even more so against a team like ours.
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I'm pretty sanguine about the whole thing still. I also hope he stays beyond the end of the season. This team needs breaking up. They don't need a best mate they need a boss. The outfield signings we've made address the spine of the team. Something neglected for 3 seasons. Despite still awaiting the major upturn in results I feel a lot more confident we've got someone that knows what they're doing in charge.
There is a lot of truth in the above points , Jacko do you think though that Allardyce is too old now ...his methods too far gone ? Genuine question .
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If Allardyce has done due diligence on the season so far and viewed all the tapes from every single WBA games, then there is absolutely no case whatsoever for playing either Livermore, Phillips, HRK or Grant.
We have much better player assets now, so if he does that again v Spurs with seemingly everyone available then he deserves the sack, simple.
There is not one single poster on here that vouches for Livermore or Phillips starting or HRK and Grant from the bench.
Allardyce needs to do the job he's paid hansomely for. No one is asking for points targets or putting pressure on certain games as must win. The fans are just asking that he picks the best team available. There have been extra players brought in for a reason i.e. They are better footballers.
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As he didn't know the players he could not change Bilic's team for first match but I find it unbelievable that he continued to pick Sawyers who was basically not one of his type of players and was going through a terrible patch of form.
To a certain extent I still have faith in his phillosophy but I do find a lot of his substitutions peculiar.
Most footballers don't like players running at them with the ball and the only two in our squad seem to be Grosicki and Gallagher so perhaps he could integrate them into the team he picks.
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The only way that happens is to gain access to more money. We need someone to come in who understands the budgetary restrictions and can work within it. I think Bilic would have bought himself more time if we hadn't finished last season poorly, it made the bad run even longer, but he publicly criticised the club and board and I think that, ultimately sealed his fate. It's ok blaming the board but they were as transparent as they could be about the budget. Whilst we have this owner, the only way forward is a completely united front from DoF through to coach and ultimately players. I think Allardyce will want to stay as he knows he will start the season with a top 6 chance of promotion, minimum. Personally I would look at someone younger and try and get them to buy into the structure and limitations of the club.
Bilic's criticisms of the board's approach were spot on and have been born out by events. Had the board listened to him we wouldn't be in such a mess. He was honest. He praised our activity in the champsionship and lamented the lack of support this season. The board were delusional and genuinely believed that all we needed was a defensive organiser like Allardyce in to compete, shown to be ridiculous as our defensive and organisation is now worse than than it has ever been.
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If we are not within a shout of promotion come Halloween/Bonfire Night.
That is exactly what we don’t want and it just continues the hire and fire mentality that has had this club in its grip for too long now . We need to take a leaf out of Norwich’s book in that regard
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I think in retrospect Bilic got sacked for openly criticising his employer not for job performance.
He couldn't be held to account for performance as we were pretty much lowest spenders.
This was borne out by position in the table.
Any how its history and Allardyce has a better pool of players to work with now than what Bilic started the season with.
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How old are you? 10?
42
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Have you looked at the results? That's what a manager is judged on - not on a few signings that haven't even played yet.
Be interesting to see what happens when our defence is still all over the shop and we can no longer blame Sawyers and Livermore.
I didn't say he was Jesus. I judge Allardyce on his record over many, many years, not whether he's a nice man like lots of short sighted supporters on here
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I didn't say he was Jesus. I judge Allardyce on his record over man many years, not whether he's a nice man like lots of short sighted supporters on here
He has been a **** for a long time, not a short sighted view !
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Bracket Allardout in the same group as Pardew and Pulis.
Three of the worst head-coaches we have had to suffer in recent times.
Three Musketeers? More like three dinosaurs out of Jurassic Park.
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Bracket Allardout in the same group as Pardew and Pulis.
Three of the worst head-coaches we have had to suffer in recent times.
Three Musketeers? More like three dinosaurs out of Jurassic Park.
Pulis doesnt belong anywhere on such a list
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We should have got Megson back instead of Allardyce. They were out of work for about the same amount of time, but at least we know Megson can motivate players. To be honest though he'd have probably just ended up with a tarnished image with us, so it's probably better that he didn't come.
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Bracket Allardout in the same group as Pardew and Pulis.
Three of the worst head-coaches we have had to suffer in recent times.
Three Musketeers? More like three dinosaurs out of Jurassic Park.
Eh? I'd give anything for the Premier League finishes he gave us. Bizarre.
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He's our manager. While he is we should all be big enough to get behind him and the team.
I wonder how many on here are fully behind their day to day manager at work?
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I think in retrospect Bilic got sacked for openly criticising his employer not for job performance.
Really?!
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The thing about those saying we should’ve kept Bilic... how many of you would be screaming about how we “made no effort to survive†if we had kept him and got relegated.
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The thing about those saying we should’ve kept Bilic... how many of you would be screaming about how we “made no effort to survive†if we had kept him and got relegated.
Not me. I would have stuck with Slaven even if we were relegated (if he would have stuck with us !!). We got promoted a year too early anyway in my view as it was publicly stated that it was a two year plan when we appointed him. He paid the price for over achieving in his first season. Appointing Allardyce as a so called short term fix takes us back to square one, needing a brand new 2 or 3 year plan.
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The thing about those saying we should’ve kept Bilic... how many of you would be screaming about how we “made no effort to survive†if we had kept him and got relegated.
I never said we should have kept Bilic, however I was always of the opinion that this squad of players would be relegated whoever was in charge.
For that reason my preference would have been to keep Bilic or replace him with someone with a long term view.
The appointment of Allardyce simply wastes funds we need for next year.
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I wonder how many on here are fully behind their day to day manager at work?
Only if I worked as a tour guide at Beachy Head.
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The thing about those saying we should’ve kept Bilic... how many of you would be screaming about how we “made no effort to survive†if we had kept him and got relegated.
Not here. I'd expected relegation because we didn't invest enough, not because we had the wrong manager.
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Brighton pick up 6 points v Liverpool and Spurs, 4 clean sheets in a row. Allardyce, time for you and your team to pull something out the bag because it's practically all over bar the signing.
That good feeling when we signed Diagne, Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles has gone. What we need is back to back wins and even then we are still behind.
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The thing about those saying we should’ve kept Bilic... how many of you would be screaming about how we “made no effort to survive†if we had kept him and got relegated.
"Making an effort" = Making things worse by appointing Allardyce.
The way to "make an effort" was to invest in better players, not swapping coaching staff to an inferior set-up.
I'm sure a few would have been doing that on here, a section of football fans cannot see past their own noses and have no patience or realism; with the rise of social media we have a few more of those than we used to.
We are just another Watford now, looking forward to yet another managerial appointment in the summer.
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Really?!
It's true he spoke out about the sale of Hegazi that it was done behind his back stuff like that is frowned upon in Chinese business culture going public against your employer his days were numbered from then on.
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It's true he spoke out about the sale of Hegazi that it was done behind his back stuff like that is frowned upon in Chinese business culture going public against your employer his days were numbered from then on.
I agree. The moment he came out with that he was finished
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Imagine where we would be had Slav not got us promoted, Another year of chumps income against the backdrop of covid affected finances! His reward the old heave ho!
He clearly had a plan which he was desperate to implement but the club would only support part of it and when he got drunk off they got shut. If I went to my boss and said I need a to do the job properly and here is the justification only to be told you may want x but you are getting half of x and we are selling one of your best assets, I would justifiably be angry. I am the expert in my field at work and my opinions /needs should matter.
Would I just walk out, no but the CV would be circulated and plans put in place.
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It's true he spoke out about the sale of Hegazi that it was done behind his back stuff like that is frowned upon in Chinese business culture going public against your employer his days were numbered from then on.
I agree. The moment he came out with that he was finished
He publicly complained about the transfer budget being cut in pre-season. This just confirms all parties knew they were done with each other then before the season started. Thanks for staying together for nothing and thats directed at all of them.
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Good on Bilic for complaining. It was not a Premier League budget. He genuinely wanted to do well for the club and himself.
Right now totally confused what Allardyce's motives were for taking the job? His relegation record is definitely up in smoke. This is a different Allardyce to the younger version. Does he even care? From what happened at Brammall Lane I'd say no. If that was him giving 100% then I'm genuinely shocked.
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I know this is something that I will have to be careful of asking.
But, Do you think he wil be gone before the end of the season?
What is the likelihood of us sacking him?
Or do you think he will walk to keep his record intact?
He may be sacked but I can’t see him walking. It’s his last job and he’s topping up his pension. Not concerned about that record in my view.
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Good on Bilic for complaining. It was not a Premier League budget. He genuinely wanted to do well for the club and himself.
I dont doubt that. My point is this situation we are in now exists due to the disintegration of any relationship betwene Bilic and board. They all knew it was done. They should have paid him off and thanked him.
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"Making an effort" = Making things worse by appointing Allardyce.
The way to "make an effort" was to invest in better players, not swapping coaching staff to an inferior set-up.
I'm sure a few would have been doing that on here, a section of football fans cannot see past their own noses and have no patience or realism; with the rise of social media we have a few more of those than we used to.
We are just another Watford now, looking forward to yet another managerial appointment in the summer.
I’m really rubbish at Golf. I’ve had spells where I’ve tried to get into it but I just don’t have it in me to get good. When I have gone, it’s with the full understanding that I’m not going to do very well. I find it easier to strike the ball clean when I play with the smaller, more open faced clubs like the 9 iron, rather than the drivers, which usually go all over the place. That said, on a hole that’s 500 yards, what good is that going to do me? I have 2 choices. I can stay in my comfort zone and go with the 9 iron and know that it is going to take me 5 or more shots to even get onto the green (if I’m lucky). Or, I can decide I’m going to go for it. Yeah the chances are that I will to top it or pull it miles wide, but every now and then, the gamble pays off. I can choose guaranteed failure, or I can role the dice and have a chance.
Despite your constant digs at fans who don’t see it the same way as you, the main basis to your argument over the last few weeks is that you don’t think anyone could keep us up. In doing so, you have acknowledged on a couple of occasions that you didn’t think Bilic was going to keep us up. It’s one thing we agree on, Albion under Bilic had seen 12 months of below par form and there were no signs he was going to keep us up and if I’m honest, not that much evidence from his past club managerial career that he would then go on to revitalise us after that rot had set in back down in the championship.
It wasn’t however an impossible task to keep us up this season. There have been several occasions this year alone where Leeds Utd have fielded 7 or more players (over half a team) who were at the club when Bielsa took over after a 14th place finish in the championship. Bielsa has found a way of making 29 year old Stuart Dallas, 30 year old Mateusz Klich, journeyman Patrick Bamford, 29 year old Luke Ayling, 28 year old Ezgjan Alioski, 29 year old Liam Cooper and academy graduate Kelvin Phillips into a functioning premier league team. Near enough all of those players are playing premier league football for the first time after years as unremarkable players in the championship.
Even Chris Wilder’s Sheff Utd are a good example, written off last season before a ball was kicked due to the basis of their side either having been signed while in league 1 or in their first season back in the championship. Again, Wilder found a way.
Due to our poor summer recruitment (some of which Bilic had a hand in himself), we were always fighting an up hill battle, nobody denies that. But it was worth a shot trying somebody else. As Aztec says, it would have been my preference to replace him with somebody with a longer term view rather than a fire fighter, somebody who was up and coming and might have atleast put us in a good place for next season, but the decision to sack Bilic wasn’t born out of unrealistic expectations, it was due to no real signs of life and little point continuing when there was a breakdown between board and manager,
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I’m really rubbish at Golf. I’ve had spells where I’ve tried to get into it but I just don’t have it in me to get good. When I have gone, it’s with the full understanding that I’m not going to do very well. I find it easier to strike the ball clean when I play with the smaller, more open faced clubs like the 9 iron, rather than the drivers, which usually go all over the place. That said, on a hole that’s 500 yards, what good is that going to do me? I have 2 choices. I can stay in my comfort zone and go with the 9 iron and know that it is going to take me 5 or more shots to even get onto the green (if I’m lucky). Or, I can decide I’m going to go for it. Yeah the chances are that I will to top it or pull it miles wide, but every now and then, the gamble pays off. I can choose guaranteed failure, or I can role the dice and have a chance.
Despite your constant digs at fans who don’t see it the same way as you, the main basis to your argument over the last few weeks is that you don’t think anyone could keep us up. In doing so, you have acknowledged on a couple of occasions that you didn’t think Bilic was going to keep us up. It’s one thing we agree on, Albion under Bilic had seen 12 months of below par form and there were no signs he was going to keep us up and if I’m honest, not that much evidence from his past club managerial career that he would then go on to revitalise us after that rot had set in back down in the championship.
It wasn’t however an impossible task to keep us up this season. There have been several occasions this year alone where Leeds Utd have fielded 7 or more players (over half a team) who were at the club when Bielsa took over after a 14th place finish in the championship. Bielsa has found a way of making 29 year old Stuart Dallas, 30 year old Mateusz Klich, journeyman Patrick Bamford, 29 year old Luke Ayling, 28 year old Ezgjan Alioski, 29 year old Liam Cooper and academy graduate Kelvin Phillips into a functioning premier league team. Near enough all of those players are playing premier league football for the first time after years as unremarkable players in the championship.
Even Chris Wilder’s Sheff Utd are a good example, written off last season before a ball was kicked due to the basis of their side either having been signed while in league 1 or in their first season back in the championship. Again, Wilder found a way.
Due to our poor summer recruitment (some of which Bilic had a hand in himself), we were always fighting an up hill battle, nobody denies that. But it was worth a shot trying somebody else. As Aztec says, it would have been my preference to replace him with somebody with a longer term view rather than a fire fighter, somebody who was up and coming and might have atleast put us in a good place for next season, but the decision to sack Bilic wasn’t born out of unrealistic expectations, it was due to no real signs of life and little point continuing when there was a breakdown between board and manager,
Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post Baggies. Nice bit of bedtime reading. Cheers mate 😃👍🏻
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I cut down your post to keep the discussion as succinct as possible:
you have acknowledged on a couple of occasions that you didn’t think Bilic was going to keep us up.
It wasn’t however an impossible task to keep us up this season.
There have been several occasions this year alone where Leeds Utd have fielded 7 or more players (over half a team) who were at the club when Bielsa took over after a 14th place finish in the championship. Bielsa has found a way of making 29 year old Stuart Dallas, 30 year old Mateusz Klich, journeyman Patrick Bamford, 29 year old Luke Ayling, 28 year old Ezgjan Alioski, 29 year old Liam Cooper and academy graduate Kelvin Phillips into a functioning premier league team. Near enough all of those players are playing premier league football for the first time after years as unremarkable players in the championship.
Even Chris Wilder’s Sheff Utd are a good example, written off last season before a ball was kicked due to the basis of their side either having been signed while in league 1 or in their first season back in the championship. Again, Wilder found a way.
Due to our poor summer recruitment (some of which Bilic had a hand in himself), we were always fighting an up hill battle, nobody denies that. But it was worth a shot trying somebody else. As Aztec says, it would have been my preference to replace him with somebody with a longer term view rather than a fire fighter, somebody who was up and coming and might have atleast put us in a good place for next season, but the decision to sack Bilic wasn’t born out of unrealistic expectations, it was due to no real signs of life and little point continuing when there was a breakdown between board and manager,
I said all season we have no realistic chance of survival, especially as the league is so strong this year.
Survival this season required a miracle. Bielsa is a unique freak of nature and Leeds already finished comfortably ahead of us last season. You also need to recognise that Leeds may have up to 7 players from last season in their team but the players they brought in were expensive and are of a much higher calibre than our recruitment. Just look at how much they have spent and how much we have spent; after they already finished above us. Pretty obvious they would be superior to us again which is what has happened.
Sheff Utd have got pasted this season and are getting relegated with us. Last season they were the lowest scorers in the league but managed to win games because they had a top class goal keeper. They also have the luxury of Watford, Bournemouth and Norwich being terrible. We do not have that, our relegation rivals of Burnley, Brighton and Newcastle are actually very decent sides. Then just for good measure instead of Dean Henderson we have Sam Johnstone. Bilic tried to replace him in the summer and the board refused to go for the Croatian keeper he wanted - I've moaned constantly that we can't stop conceding goals with Johnstone in the nets, so can't hope to stay up.
I don't agree it was "worth a shot with somebody else" as the problem wasn't the coaching staff and as it has transpired changing them out for the current lot has seen us get worse which kind of proves my point. Secondly, we now have to start from scratch in the summer and find yet another intelligent progressive manager to get us out of the championship which will be extremely challenging.
To expect survival was absolutely an unrealistic expectation with our pitiful budget. A reasonable expectation was to finish 19th or 20th which is what is happening. Anything above that being a bonus.
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It’s not expecting survival though is it, it was saying that our aim is survival and we need some evidence that we might at least put a challenge in.
As it was, when Bilic was sacked we had one of the lowest points totals in premier league history for that point in a season (statistically speaking). It’s only the presence of 2 equally struggling sides this season in Sheff Utd and Fulham that has masked that fact.
If you feel Bilic was a progressive manager who we could plan with long term then I know I’m not going to change your mind, but despite a great spell in international management, his club career is very, very mediocre. There wasn’t much to suggest that he was the right man long term and last seasons capitulation didn’t do much to convince me personally that he was anything other than a reactionary manager.
I will however say 2 things about the goalkeeper points. I would cash in on Sam Johnstone in a heartbeat, but to single him out for our defensive failings this season is hugely unfair given the fact he is having his first decent season with us. Also, I’ve not seen it said anywhere that the club refused to sanction the signing of Ivo Grbic - he just chose to go to one of the biggest clubs in the world instead.
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It’s not expecting survival though is it, it was saying that our aim is survival and we need some evidence that we might at least put a challenge in. As it was, when Bilic was sacked we had one of the lowest points totals in premier league history for that point in a season (statistically speaking). It’s only the presence of 2 equally struggling sides this season in Sheff Utd and Fulham that has masked that fact.
If you feel Bilic was a progressive manager who we could plan with long term then I know I’m not going to change your mind, but despite a great spell in international management, his club career is very, very mediocre. There wasn’t much to suggest that he was the right man long term and last seasons capitulation didn’t do much to convince me personally that he was anything other than a reactionary manager.
I will however say 2 things about the goalkeeper points. I would cash in on Sam Johnstone in a heartbeat, but to single him out for our defensive failings this season is hugely unfair given the fact he is having his first decent season with us. Also, I’ve not seen it said anywhere that the club refused to sanction the signing of Ivo Grbic - he just chose to go to one of the biggest clubs in the world instead.
Allardyce has taken us even further away from putting a challenge in, dispute his experience, evidence it wasn't possible to with our squad to compete the way we would have wanted. Bilic took West Ham to their highest every premiership finish. Last season we capitulated into 2nd place and 82 points in an ultra competitive league. I'd snap your hand off for that next season. Sam Johnstone concedes goals like a sieve and has no presence. He fails to command his box and doesn't react to shots from distance. He's just not good enough and in the premier league you need a quality reliable keeper. If we are lucky enough to sell him on his next team will suffer in the same way.
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Allardyce has taken us even further away from putting a challenge in, dispute his experience, evidence it wasn't possible to with our squad to compete the way we would have wanted. Bilic took West Ham to their highest every premiership finish. Last season we capitulated into 2nd place and 82 points in an ultra competitive league. I'd snap your hand off for that next season. Sam Johnstone concedes goals like a sieve and has no presence. He fails to command his box and doesn't react to shots from distance. He's just not good enough and in the premier league you need a quality reliable keeper. If we are lucky enough to sell him on his next team will suffer in the same way.
Bilic did a great job in his first year at West Ham but then the decline set in and they never really recovered, which is in itself a sign that once things start going awry, Bilic might not be the right man to correct it. As for his other club management career since the Croatia job, he has not seen any success at either Lokomotiv Moscow, Besiktas or Al Ittihad.
We will never know if he could have re-energised Albion so it is all conjecture, but I’ll just repeat that I can’t see any evidence that he would have been able to.
As for Allardyce, it could also be a sign that if you take a side set up to play front foot football with an emphasis on using the midfield and put them under the command of an old, slightly outdated defensove manager, you are asking for trouble. There was just no continuity. We will never know now if a more suitable manager (playing style wise) could have made a better fist of it.
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There is no excuse for any more longball tactics from Allardyce. We have got Maitland Niles and Yokuslu who are technically superior to anything else we have in midfield. Diangana is fit again. There is no need to play any of the players that have been proven to be not of sufficient quality (everyone knows who they are).
The transfer window has gone and Dowling has done some business, which could've been bypassed completely in terms of our plight and position in the table.
We all accept we are relegated and are at peace with it. The ball though is massively in Allardyce's court to play a better style of football / showing more quality on the pitch. Can he do it?
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The point isn't Bilic v Allardyce,
the point is planning and consistency versus short termism and fire fighting, discussing the merits of the 2 individuals is a distraction IMO. At some point the club has to "grow some sphericals" and accept an upward trajectory will have dips, but if they have a put a plan in place they need to believe in their plan and stick at it. If not, what is the point of planning ?
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I’m really rubbish at Golf. I’ve had spells where I’ve tried to get into it but I just don’t have it in me to get good. When I have gone, it’s with the full understanding that I’m not going to do very well. I find it easier to strike the ball clean when I play with the smaller, more open faced clubs like the 9 iron, rather than the drivers, which usually go all over the place. That said, on a hole that’s 500 yards, what good is that going to do me? I have 2 choices. I can stay in my comfort zone and go with the 9 iron and know that it is going to take me 5 or more shots to even get onto the green (if I’m lucky). Or, I can decide I’m going to go for it. Yeah the chances are that I will to top it or pull it miles wide, but every now and then, the gamble pays off. I can choose guaranteed failure, or I can role the dice and have a chance.
Despite your constant digs at fans who don’t see it the same way as you, the main basis to your argument over the last few weeks is that you don’t think anyone could keep us up. In doing so, you have acknowledged on a couple of occasions that you didn’t think Bilic was going to keep us up. It’s one thing we agree on, Albion under Bilic had seen 12 months of below par form and there were no signs he was going to keep us up and if I’m honest, not that much evidence from his past club managerial career that he would then go on to revitalise us after that rot had set in back down in the championship.
It wasn’t however an impossible task to keep us up this season. There have been several occasions this year alone where Leeds Utd have fielded 7 or more players (over half a team) who were at the club when Bielsa took over after a 14th place finish in the championship. Bielsa has found a way of making 29 year old Stuart Dallas, 30 year old Mateusz Klich, journeyman Patrick Bamford, 29 year old Luke Ayling, 28 year old Ezgjan Alioski, 29 year old Liam Cooper and academy graduate Kelvin Phillips into a functioning premier league team. Near enough all of those players are playing premier league football for the first time after years as unremarkable players in the championship.
Even Chris Wilder’s Sheff Utd are a good example, written off last season before a ball was kicked due to the basis of their side either having been signed while in league 1 or in their first season back in the championship. Again, Wilder found a way.
Due to our poor summer recruitment (some of which Bilic had a hand in himself), we were always fighting an up hill battle, nobody denies that. But it was worth a shot trying somebody else. As Aztec says, it would have been my preference to replace him with somebody with a longer term view rather than a fire fighter, somebody who was up and coming and might have atleast put us in a good place for next season, but the decision to sack Bilic wasn’t born out of unrealistic expectations, it was due to no real signs of life and little point continuing when there was a breakdown between board and manager,
The Leeds example is really interesting, Bielsa, is a renowned coach, but can't (or won't) speak English, when most of his team are English speaking. With that in mind his player development is even more remarkable.
I believe, on balance, we probably should have parted company with Bilic earlier, but should his replacement have been an Anglo Saxon speaker?
Oh by the way on the golf.
Get yourself down the driving range when they re-open, a bit of practice & you'll be hitting your driver straight as a die.
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Come on lads this is the Sam Allardyce thread not the Sam Johnstone one.
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Sam has been shown for what he is, which is not a coaching genius, but a good old fashioned football manager. He is good at identifying players that suit his tried and trusted method and has the contacts and network to bring them in. Unfortunately for him the new players are coming into dead rubbers, but as their motivation is purely to shop window themselves then that should not be an issue and we can hope the rest of the season should be less horrific.
I think all parties will be happy to part company come summer and we can look to rebuild again. A decision needs to be made by the board on the direction they then want us to go? Head Coach of which there will be a few decent options OR Manager, of which i don't think there are too many left.
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I wonder how Musa is getting on in his trial period.
That's if he is actually with us.
Anyone know anything?
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There is no excuse for any more longball tactics from Allardyce. We have got Maitland Niles and Yokuslu who are technically superior to anything else we have in midfield. Diangana is fit again. There is no need to play any of the players that have been proven to be not of sufficient quality (everyone knows who they are).
The transfer window has gone and Dowling has done some business, which could've been bypassed completely in terms of our plight and position in the table.
We all accept we are relegated and are at peace with it. The ball though is massively in Allardyce's court to play a better style of football / showing more quality on the pitch. Can he do it?
What long ball tactics?
Weve played measured football and some longer balls. Im happy with that approach depending on what the game requires in that moment.
Its a complete myth that he is a long ball merchant. Several players have said this that have played under him in podcasts ive listened to recently. He encourages them to go out and play football was the theme under all of them.
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What long ball tactics?
Weve played measured football and some longer balls. Im happy with that approach depending on what the game requires in that moment.
Its a complete myth that he is a long ball merchant. Several players have said this that have played under him in podcasts ive listened to recently. He encourages them to go out and play football was the theme under all of them.
You talk as if his in game management is of a high standard. Depending on what the game requires, he will adapt his tactics. So you think he is doing quite well then?
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What long ball tactics?
Weve played measured football and some longer balls. Im happy with that approach depending on what the game requires in that moment.
Its a complete myth that he is a long ball merchant. Several players have said this that have played under him in podcasts ive listened to recently. He encourages them to go out and play football was the theme under all of them.
Wow, measured by the 18 yard line maybe. Some, i think you mis-spelt lots !
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What long ball tactics?
Weve played measured football and some longer balls. Im happy with that approach depending on what the game requires in that moment.
Its a complete myth that he is a long ball merchant. Several players have said this that have played under him in podcasts ive listened to recently. He encourages them to go out and play football was the theme under all of them.
Blimey Tom, I've got a PhD in "sitting on the fence, but you must have been watching some different games to me.
Personally, I'm results driven, & while Pulis was getting positive results, I didn't have too much of a problem with him, it was only when he'd lost the confidence of the players, I wanted him gone.
We've been able to watch all of the games since covid, & I prefer to watch without the crowd noise, so you can hear what's being said from the bench. The cameras also often pan to the benches.
I can honestly say I've never heard any encouragement from SA, in fact, it's the opposite, during Tuesday's match he went into an absolute rage.
If he is a good tactician, he's disadvantaged by his man management & communication skills which are dreadful.
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You won't hear Alladyce because Sammy does the shouting. Get your ears syringed.
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You won't hear Alladyce because Sammy does the shouting. Get your ears syringed.
Was that really necessary? Waht did it add to your point?
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You won't hear Alladyce because Sammy does the shouting. Get your ears syringed.
Probably do need my ears investigating, but I can still hear Alladyce, shows how much he yells.
Yelling doesn't motivate me & I doubt it motivates the players either.
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What long ball tactics?
Weve played measured football and some longer balls. Im happy with that approach depending on what the game requires in that moment.
Its a complete myth that he is a long ball merchant. Several players have said this that have played under him in podcasts ive listened to recently. He encourages them to go out and play football was the theme under all of them.
You obviously have missed some of the recent matches / watched recent games in part! Possession is around 30-35%, under the previous Manager is was 40-50%, there is a clear disparity.
If you are a defender you're not going to risk giving it to Livermore (but sometimes he doesn't want to receive anyway), you'll just crash it into the channel out of harm's way.
So if SA continues with midfielders of that ilk, the net result is long ball football. Irrespective of relegation, I think he should play a more progressive style of football with neat inter-passing and movement off the ball with more technical midfielders.
Then he can shed the "long ball merchant" / "dinosaur" tags that have dogged him over recent years.
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I'd also add that as a defender, when you get the ball you're surrounded by opposition players and the midfield are right on top of you as everyone is back defending. It happened quite a few times against Sheff Utd, we were trying to pick a pass but it's incredibly difficult when the opposition are allowed a really high press and there's no space.
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Both of the two previous posts are also show why you cannot / should not play Livermore and Sawyers together as not only do you need players comfortable receiving and passing the ball but also somebody that can carry the ball with a modicum of pace through the middle of the pitch to put us within 10/15 yards of opposition penalty area or closer
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Both of the two previous posts are also show why you cannot / should not play Livermore and Sawyers together as not only do you need players comfortable receiving and passing the ball but also somebody that can carry the ball with a modicum of pace through the middle of the pitch to put us within 10/15 yards of opposition penalty area or closer
Krov was comfortable on the ball. Remind me what Allardyce did with him?
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Krov was comfortable on the ball. Remind me what Allardyce did with him?
No he wasn't , don't ignore the fact he couldn't hold a place down under Bilic last season or this .
There's a few things mounting to bash Sam with , Krov isn't one of them.
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No he wasn't , don't ignore the fact he couldn't hold a place down under Bilic last season or this .
There's a few things mounting to bash Sam with , Krov isn't one of them.
The argument cannot be that he is not good on the ball because these two managers didn’t like him?
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The argument cannot be that he is not good on the ball because these two managers didn’t like him?
Baggie82 point was Allardyce outed Krov , Baggie82's other point was Krov was comfortable on the ball .
Clearly that's what i replied too.
I'll also add being as Bilic had zero interest in physical midfielders its quite telling the little Croat couldn't hold a place.
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Krov was comfortable on the ball. Remind me what Allardyce did with him?
He was that comfortable on the ball that the previous manager rarely picked him for his progressive style of football that we apparently played..
As Dexy indicated - we can criticise Allardyce for a lot of things but not the decision to get rid of Krovinovic.
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No he wasn't , don't ignore the fact he couldn't hold a place down under Bilic last season or this .
There's a few things mounting to bash Sam with , Krov isn't one of them.
You could criticise Krov for some aspects of his game, but he was without doubt comfortable on the ball
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You could criticise Krov for some aspects of his game, but he was without doubt comfortable on the ball
Ok maybe a bit more comfortable than I first posted but it was usually for a matter of seconds before he got hounded off it . Being comfortable on the ball wasn't enough in the 2nd tier let alone in the Premier ,
A very poor signing from Bilic IMO given our limited funds.
To blame Allardyce for that is just wrong .
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He has been a **** for a long time, not a short sighted view !
What's that got to do with our football club? He's a far better manager than we have had post Roy. I rate Sam over Roy, I couldn't give a rubbish about him as a person, just how good he is at his job and he's far better than anyone else we could attract.
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What's that got to do with our football club? He's a far better manager than we have had than anyone post Roy. I rate Sam over Roy, I couldn't give a rubbish about him as a person, just how good he is at his job and he's far better than anyone else we could attract.
Not sure about better than Roy but I thought he'd do much better than what we have seen .
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What's that got to do with our football club? He's a far better manager than we have had post Roy. I rate Sam over Roy, I couldn't give a rubbish about him as a person, just how good he is at his job and he's far better than anyone else we could attract.
Well lets just say i don't share your opinion of his managerial capability. I have to acknowledge that he was good enough to get the England gig, Once upon a time maybe but that was a long time since
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Well lets just say i don't share your opinion of his managerial capability. I have to acknowledge that he was good enough to get the England gig, Once upon a time maybe but that was a long time since
Not sure any manager would get a tune out of this group of players at a level far beyond them except MP IMO.
I think if Allardyce was here at the start of the season and had a say in recruitment we would be much more competitive and probably have more points.
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It’s the failure to look more organised defensively that tears apart the ‘ Allardyce is the man to save us’ brigade . We haven’t , we just haven’t . Regardless of ability I would have expected some improvement in that area and there has been none >:(
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The game has moved on in the very short time that he’s been away. He’s out of touch.
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Not sure any manager would get a tune out of this group of players at a level far beyond them except MP IMO.
I think if Allardyce was here at the start of the season and had a say in recruitment we would be much more competitive and probably have more points.
As a person with some managerial experience, I would have to challenge your comments.
I think it's probably fair to assume that SA took the job on with the knowledge that there wouldn't be a massive fund to add to the existing squad of players.
It follows, that he would have to find a way to get the best from the majority of the squad he was given.
As a manager in industry & commerce you are judged on your ability to get the best out of the team you inherit, changing personnel takes time.
Looking at comments on this topic, I'm not the only one who thinks Alladyce is not capable of motivating our existing squad. That's down to the manager, not the players
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I'm actually shocked that he hasn't sorted out our defence as it was the first problem he highlighted. Ten league games in charge and no clean sheet is a damming indictment on his coaching abilities. Glad there is a break clause in his contract when the envitable happens because this experiment has been a disaster. Now if only we had a break clause with Lai and Dowling maybe then we could move on.
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As a person with some managerial experience, I would have to challenge your comments.
I think it's probably fair to assume that SA took the job on with the knowledge that there wouldn't be a massive fund to add to the existing squad of players.
It follows, that he would have to find a way to get the best from the majority of the squad he was given.
As a manager in industry & commerce you are judged on your ability to get the best out of the team you inherit, changing personnel takes time.
Looking at comments on this topic, I'm not the only one who thinks Alladyce is not capable of motivating our existing squad. That's down to the manager, not the players
You can only motivate people that want/accept motivation though, sometimes people refuse to buy into someone else's ideas and don't try to change.
We had it at the end under Pulis and also under Pardew where the players just gave up trying for those managers....they believed in Moore and hey presto the same players were suddenly performing to much higher levels.
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You can only motivate people that want/accept motivation though, sometimes people refuse to buy into someone else's ideas and don't try to change.
We had it at the end under Pulis and also under Pardew where the players just gave up trying for those managers....they believed in Moore and hey presto the same players were suddenly performing to much higher levels.
Motivational skill should be high on the list of a head coach's skillset shouldn't it? Their remit has to be about motivation as well as organisation and tactics.
If players don't believe in their head coach, it's not a tenable position.
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It’s the failure to look more organised defensively that tears apart the ‘ Allardyce is the man to save us’ brigade . We haven’t , we just haven’t . Regardless of ability I would have expected some improvement in that area and there has been none >:(
It's not just that he has failed to improve the defence, he's not been able to match Bilic's defensive output and organisation. Allardyce has managed to make our defence far weaker, so he has had a big impact, just not the one we wanted.
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I'm actually shocked that he hasn't sorted out our defence as it was the first problem he highlighted. Ten league games in charge and no clean sheet is a damming indictment on his coaching abilities. Glad there is a break clause in his contract when the envitable happens because this experiment has been a disaster. Now if only we had a break clause with Lai and Dowling maybe then we could move on.
I'm actually shocked we've gone into a Premier League season with this defence. That neither Bilic nor Allardyce between them have got a consistent tune out of them does not surprise me. It's a damning indictment of our defensive recruitment.
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As a person with some managerial experience, I would have to challenge your comments.
I think it's probably fair to assume that SA took the job on with the knowledge that there wouldn't be a massive fund to add to the existing squad of players.
It follows, that he would have to find a way to get the best from the majority of the squad he was given.
As a manager in industry & commerce you are judged on your ability to get the best out of the team you inherit, changing personnel takes time.
Looking at comments on this topic, I'm not the only one who thinks Alladyce is not capable of motivating our existing squad. That's down to the manager, not the players
Completely agree with this
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I am probably being deluded and in the minority but despite how bad things are, i havent given up on Big Sam just yet.
My view (and i am tempting fate) is that surely it cant get any worse, Allardyce himself keeps saying about the individual errors, surely at this stage he now understands that the players arent good enough to be able to defend for the whole game, eventually after enough pressure they crumble.
Iwould expect him to be looking how we overcome that and the only way is to keep the ball better (ie - not whack it forward to nobody) and pose a threat ourselves, if he looks back at our games the best we have been is Liverpool 2nd half and Wolves, where yes we didnt have as much of the ball as them but we had more than when just try to defend and more importantly, we actually played some decent counter attacking football and posed a threat.
I cant believe such an experienced coach will persist with something that isnt working any longer, he now has a couple of new faces which should help and i expect to see a change in approach from now on, not us becoming the next Man City, we will always be conservative and thats fine, but i hope he gets us showing that we can offer more than we have been.
He must be quite embarrassed to be associated with some of our performances under him, this is Big Sam, he has quite a big ego, and as bad as the players have been and at times lacked effort, he also has to take his share of the blame and start to get some momemtum right away.
Because unfortunately for him, as we have only take 1 point from 6 against our rivals, it now means we have to be getting points against Tottenham and Man United, because of how desperate the situation is, i think we need to win one of those games or at least draw them both, i think anything other than at least 2 points and he could well be gone, if we get a similar performance to Villa, Leeds, Arsenal, Man City, Fulham, Sheffield United this sunday v Tottenham, it may well happen sooner rather than later.
Finally a sensible post.
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Finally a sensible post.
He's not despised by everyone.
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Iwould expect him to be looking how we overcome that and the only way is to keep the ball better (ie - not whack it forward to nobody) and pose a threat ourselves, if he looks back at our games the best we have been is Liverpool 2nd half and Wolves, where yes we didnt have as much of the ball as them but we had more than when just try to defend and more importantly, we actually played some decent counter attacking football and posed a threat.
We were decent for about half an hour of the second half against Fulham as well. You'd think he'd be able to see that we're better when we're playing instead of hoofing, when we're in the opposition half instead of ours. I'll be honest, I don't think the penny will have dropped.
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As a person with some managerial experience, I would have to challenge your comments.
I think it's probably fair to assume that SA took the job on with the knowledge that there wouldn't be a massive fund to add to the existing squad of players.
It follows, that he would have to find a way to get the best from the majority of the squad he was given.
As a manager in industry & commerce you are judged on your ability to get the best out of the team you inherit, changing personnel takes time.
Looking at comments on this topic, I'm not the only one who thinks Alladyce is not capable of motivating our existing squad. That's down to the manager, not the players
But the players at his disposal are simply way out of their depth. Not good enough on the pitch and not good enough on the training field. You can’t teach someone if they can’t do it. This is why we will end up one of the worst premier teams in history.
Sam would not have allowed hegazi to leave and would have bought better defenders (probably a whole new back line) as he would have known the defence was not good enough for the championship (second half of season) let alone the top league in the world - the board / dowling are unforgivable for not sorting it out.
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No he wasn't , don't ignore the fact he couldn't hold a place down under Bilic last season or this .
There's a few things mounting to bash Sam with , Krov isn't one of them.
I wasn’t suggesting that Krov was Paul Scholes. He used to annoy me for holding onto the ball for too long and going sideways too much but given the choice of him or Livermore (who Big Sam is still playing as captain) being given the ball on the half turn and it’s a no brainer.
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You talk as if his in game management is of a high standard. Depending on what the game requires, he will adapt his tactics. So you think he is doing quite well then?
No...not really.
Bit of a silly question really.
But we are not a long ball side either.
Which is the point I was making
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Wow, measured by the 18 yard line maybe. Some, i think you mis-spelt lots !
No there has been some decent passages of play at times.
Poor defensive mistakes doesn’t take away from the fact we’ve played some measured football along the way at times..
Because we have
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Blimey Tom, I've got a PhD in "sitting on the fence, but you must have been watching some different games to me.
Personally, I'm results driven, & while Pulis was getting positive results, I didn't have too much of a problem with him, it was only when he'd lost the confidence of the players, I wanted him gone.
We've been able to watch all of the games since covid, & I prefer to watch without the crowd noise, so you can hear what's being said from the bench. The cameras also often pan to the benches.
I can honestly say I've never heard any encouragement from SA, in fact, it's the opposite, during Tuesday's match he went into an absolute rage.
If he is a good tactician, he's disadvantaged by his man management & communication skills which are dreadful.
You must be...
I’ve seen some good football in spells....
I’ve seen some long balls.
But we are not a long ball side in the slightest
People seem to look at the Sheff Utd 2nd half and forget the 1st half where we played some decent football.
People blinded by their hatred of Allardyce
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You must be...
I’ve seen some good football in spells....
I’ve seen some long balls.
But we are not a long ball side in the slightest
People seem to look at the Sheff Utd 2nd half and forget the 1st half where we played some decent football.
People blinded by their hatred of Allardyce
We have virtually no possession! Possession has slipped comfortably under 40%. We are not an accomplished passng team containing Livermore & Phillips. You must be easily pleased.
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But the players at his disposal are simply way out of their depth. Not good enough on the pitch and not good enough on the training field. You can’t teach someone if they can’t do it. This is why we will end up one of the worst premier teams in history.
Sam would not have allowed hegazi to leave and would have bought better defenders (probably a whole new back line) as he would have known the defence was not good enough for the championship (second half of season) let alone the top league in the world - the board / dowling are unforgivable for not sorting it out.
So you think Allardyce is getting the best he possibly can from our existing players, but they're just not good enough?
I'm not sure where he would have got the funds from to replace the whole back line, & Bilic hardly played Hegazi, so I can't see why he would have any complaints when he was sold.
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You must be...
I’ve seen some good football in spells....
I’ve seen some long balls.
But we are not a long ball side in the slightest
People seem to look at the Sheff Utd 2nd half and forget the 1st half where we played some decent football.
People blinded by their hatred of Allardyce
I've got no hatred of anybody, I've met Allardyce once & he struck me as a good grass roots Northerner with a dry sense of humour.
I said on my previous post that I'm not uncomfortable with his playing style providing it gets results.
It's only since he's joined us, that I've been aware of his management style, IMO it's his management style that's causing the problem.
He needs to get buy-in from the players, he won't do that by bullying.
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Not sure how you can call him a bully unless you're party to training and the dressing room.
This week's training videos suggest anything but.
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We have virtually no possession! Possession has slipped comfortably under 40%. We are not an accomplished passng team containing Livermore & Phillips. You must be easily pleased.
You’ll have to quote me where I’ve said we are an ‘accomplished passing team’....I literally haven’t said that have I.
I do believe I’ve said there has been some measured play in our game and therefore dispels the myth that we are a ‘long ball side’...
But please go ahead and quote me
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We have virtually no possession! Possession has slipped comfortably under 40%. We are not an accomplished passng team containing Livermore & Phillips. You must be easily pleased.
I also think you’ll find that possession would be well under 50% and most of the time well under 40-45% in this league anyway against the majority of the leagues sides.
Tell me, how did we did do with a more possession based game plan under the previous manager?
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I've got no hatred of anybody, I've met Allardyce once & he struck me as a good grass roots Northerner with a dry sense of humour.
I said on my previous post that I'm not uncomfortable with his playing style providing it gets results.
It's only since he's joined us, that I've been aware of his management style, IMO it's his management style that's causing the problem.
He needs to get buy-in from the players, he won't do that by bullying.
Not sure where the bullying comes from?? I mean that’s just incorrect...
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So you think Allardyce is getting the best he possibly can from our existing players, but they're just not good enough?
I'm not sure where he would have got the funds from to replace the whole back line, & Bilic hardly played Hegazi, so I can't see why he would have any complaints when he was sold.
Any new manager would struggle with this group is what I was getting at. I think they are trying but Bilic’s system, when there was one, was weak and these players didn’t have the focus - now they need to focus and follow strict instructions they struggle - Roy would have the same issue.
Second half of the championship once we were found out was a struggle and our defence was poor for that level..
Re funds he wouldn’t have signed Kipre, and most likely not Diang - Bilic had money to spend and didn’t address the glaring weakness at the back and I’m saying Allardyce, would have done the decent thing and built from the back.
If he would have let Hegazi go I’m sure he would have had an adequate replacement.
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I've got no hatred of anybody, I've met Allardyce once & he struck me as a good grass roots Northerner with a dry sense of humour.
I said on my previous post that I'm not uncomfortable with his playing style providing it gets results.
It's only since he's joined us, that I've been aware of his management style, IMO it's his management style that's causing the problem.
He needs to get buy-in from the players, he won't do that by bullying.
Bullying might be a bit strong John but normally if someone ' firm ' comes in you get a reaction for at least a month or so . Even after the mourning period for Bilic you would hope for a bit more from these players , not saying Sam has handled things well but this season for me is saying a lot about this squad mentally and physically .
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Other than maybe 15 minutes against West Ham I cannot think of any other times where we’ve played some nice stuff. I’m not anti Allardyce or long ball if it is effective. However we’ve been downright garbage since he came in.
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Other than maybe 15 minutes against West Ham I cannot think of any other times where we’ve played some nice stuff. I’m not anti Allardyce or long ball if it is effective. However we’ve been downright garbage since he came in.
Put together some sweeping moves at Wolves , 2nd half v Fulham and in part first half v Sheff Utd .
Nowhere near what we hoped for though .
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I also think you’ll find that possession would be well under 50% and most of the time well under 40-45% in this league anyway against the majority of the leagues sides.
Tell me, how did we did do with a more possession based game plan under the previous manager?
Dear me. We never got spanked under Bilic, bar the cheating in the Palace match, when we were on top at the time of the Red card. We've been pummelled, roasted under Allardyce losing 4-0 and 5-0. Sheff Utd was an appalling, embarrassing performance.
Allardyce can now do something about it with the new players. I don't want to be seeing Grant, HRK, Livermore, Phillips.any longer.
It has been long ball stuff as the midfield don't show for the ball because they're not comfortable on it. Pereira is on a level way above anyone else in terms of passing and taking players on.
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
Did you ever see Megson and Frank on the sidelines?
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
If i was in charge of this lot and had to watch them go into everything half-arsed week in week out i'd be doing a lot more than jumping and screaming.
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
You’re kidding, right?!
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Dear me. We never got spanked under Bilic, bar the cheating in the Palace match, when we were on top at the time of the Red card. We've been pummelled, roasted under Allardyce losing 4-0 and 5-0. Sheff Utd was an appalling, embarrassing performance.
Allardyce can now do something about it with the new players. I don't want to be seeing Grant, HRK, Livermore, Phillips.any longer.
It has been long ball stuff as the midfield don't show for the ball because they're not comfortable on it. Pereira is on a level way above anyone else in terms of passing and taking players on.
Greggy,
Bilić shouldn’t have even had the opportunity to manage us in the Premier League.
The managerial change - whether it be Big Sam or somebody else - should have happened in the summer. Preferably within a week of the QPR home draw. I said that then and I still say it now.
Too much time was wasted giving Bilić a chance to stop the rot which had clearly set in by early 2020.
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If i was in charge of this lot and had to watch them go into everything half-arsed week in week out i'd be doing a lot more than jumpinhg and screaming.
Great, & I'm sure it would make you feel a lot better, but would it change anything?
Probably not.
Then you've got a team of confused & nervous players, with an outcome exactly as you described.
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Great, & I'm sure it would make you feel a lot better, but would it change anything?
Probably not.
Then you've got a team of confused & nervous players, with an outcome exactly as you described.
If they can’t follow simple, basic instructions John..could you blame anybody for losing their rag at our lot?
Some of these lads have had it too easy for too long!
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Great, & I'm sure it would make you feel a lot better, but would it change anything?
Probably not.
Then you've got a team of confused & nervous players, with an outcome exactly as you described.
They are grown men. Professional footballers. Time they started acting like it. Confused and nervous. I'll give these cowards confused and nervous. They are a joke.
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They are grown men. Professional footballers. Time they started acting like it. Confused and nervous. I'll give these cowards confused and nervous. They are a joke.
It’s their lack of fight Gaz which ******* me off the most. Most of our lads haven’t got in them.
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It’s their lack of fight Gaz which ******* me off the most. Most of our lads haven’t got in them.
They have no pride or self-respect at all. It is embarassing.
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They have no pride or self-respect at all. It is embarassing.
It is.
Personally, I don’t think the relegation will be because of a terrible squad in terms of their ability. The relegation will be because of the overall attitude of the squad and their lack of courage.
Pathetic really. But perhaps this is a quality our scouting network can look out for in future...
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It is.
Personally, I don’t think the relegation will be because of a terrible squad in terms of their ability. The relegation will be because of the overall attitude of the squad and their lack of courage.
Pathetic really. But perhaps this is a quality our scouting network can look out for in future...
There is an element of a lack of desire but this squad is a very poor one ability wise for this level. The back 5 for example struggled in the Championship.
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Dear me. We never got spanked under Bilic, bar the cheating in the Palace match, when we were on top at the time of the Red card. We've been pummelled, roasted under Allardyce losing 4-0 and 5-0. Sheff Utd was an appalling, embarrassing performance.
Allardyce can now do something about it with the new players. I don't want to be seeing Grant, HRK, Livermore, Phillips.any longer.
It has been long ball stuff as the midfield don't show for the ball because they're not comfortable on it. Pereira is on a level way above anyone else in terms of passing and taking players on.
Why the dear me? Is there any need?
I don’t agree with you. I’ve seen some good football at times, nowhere near enough but some good football. I’ve seen some long ball aswell, I have no issue with that when it’s mixed in with other styles of play.
I’m more surprised that people think Bilic’s football was any good. It was awful and painful to watch at best. Slow, ponderous and didn’t create any chances either.
1-0, 3-0 or 5-0 the result is the same. A loss and 0 points.
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
How is it bullying?!
I’m really not following your line of thought here.
Some managers are quiet, some are vocal.
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Other than maybe 15 minutes against West Ham I cannot think of any other times where we’ve played some nice stuff. I’m not anti Allardyce or long ball if it is effective. However we’ve been downright garbage since he came in.
Wolves, Fulham (2nd Half) and Sheff Utd (1st half)
We played some good football within those games and were let down by mentally weak players
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
Mourinho, Klopp, Guardialoa, Smith, Bielsa, Dyche, Wilder, Tuchel, Hassenhutel all express the emotions you have just sighted - the managers who don't have pretty exuberant coaching staff who do it on their behalf.
Even Slaven Bilic was often raging, yelling and jumping up and down on the touchline.
Yet when Allardyce does it - its classed as bullying ::)
Yelling basic instructions such as "shape", "move it ******* quicker", "Get infront of him quicker" or "run ******* behind him" which Allardyce often has, is not and never will be bullying. They are basics that the players should be doing.
Your point might have some merit had he stood on the touchline and yelled "O'Shea you're ******* useless you ****.
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During the Sheffield United game, the camera panned to SA & he was raging, yelling, jumping up & down, totally out of control.
IMO that's bullying.
I didn't see this via the dodgy link on my mobile phone. It may have happened at the precise moment I took my headphones off to rage, yell, jump up and down while screaming at the tiny screen almost totally out of control as I watched the players failing to react to yet another loose ball in the box.
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They have no pride or self-respect at all. It is embarassing.
I said last week mate , we've had players with half the ability of some of these but many did their best with guts and 110 % effort . Shameful its missing in this lot .
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I said last week mate , we've had players with half the ability of some of these but many did their best with guts and 110 % effort . Shameful its missing in this lot .
Definitely. The 2002/03 side was much worse than these ability wise but made more of a fist of it than these could dare dream of. Pathetic.
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So we played better against the 2 sides that will come down with us, and the local derby? We can't really point to 10 mins here and there and go, "well we're not that much of a long ball team really".
90% of our play has been hoofing it into the channels and that's down to the tactics. What else can you do when your entire team is 35 yards from its own goal? You can't try and pass your way out of trouble as any loss of possession in that area will be lethal. And let's face it, I hardly think Sam is screaming "Neat little triangles on the edge of our BOX!!" at the top of his voice. :D
I thought I'd check our possession and pass success rate as it's a good set of stats to see how we set up and how we're generally performing....
Under Sam our averages are...
Possession: 31%
Pass success: 66%
Under Bilic...
Possession: 41%
Pass success: 75%
So we have less possession, the pass success rate has dropped, our goal difference has taken a hammering. So I thought I'd compare to the teams around us...
Possession Pass success
Sheff Utd 43% 76%
Fulham 48% 81%
Brighton 50% 80%
Burnley 41% 70%
We were just about keeping pass with them under Bilic. Under Sam we've fallen well behind.
Sam isn't working.
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Where do you draw the line of bullying ?
I read an interview with Austin a few weeks back , said from early this season Bilic made him and Kamil Grosicki train away from the first team squad . He went to see Bilic who told him he was 5th choice striker behind even Grady , this despite playing a part of getting us up . Is this bullying ? , by the way he stated Allardyce was straight with him and pretty decent.
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If the players are going into their shells because they don't like being shouted at then I for one and happy for them that games are being played behind closed doors. If they can't handle the pressure of one overweight middle aged man raising his voice at them, they'd turn to jelly with thousands doing it.
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Mourinho, Klopp, Guardialoa, Smith, Bielsa, Dyche, Wilder, Tuchel, Hassenhutel all express the emotions you have just sighted - the managers who don't have pretty exuberant coaching staff who do it on their behalf.
Even Slaven Bilic was often raging, yelling and jumping up and down on the touchline.
Yet when Allardyce does it - its classed as bullying ::)
Yelling basic instructions such as "shape", "move it ******* quicker", "Get infront of him quicker" or "run ******* behind him" which Allardyce often has, is not and never will be bullying. They are basics that the players should be doing.
Your point might have some merit had he stood on the touchline and yelled "O'Shea you're ******* useless you ****.
I'm not surprised I'm getting this reaction to my comments, & to be honest, I don't have a problem with any coach shouting instructions, but as soon as you lose your temper (which is what I saw), you're out of control & you've lost the players.
We've just bought in 5 new players, which means that SA has to pick at least 6 of our existing squad, good enough or not, it's not a great idea to turn them off.
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I'm not surprised I'm getting this reaction to my comments, & to be honest, I don't have a problem with any coach shouting instructions, but as soon as you lose your temper (which is what I saw), you're out of control & you've lost the players.
We've just bought in 5 new players, which means that SA has to pick at least 6 of our existing squad, good enough or not, it's not a great idea to turn them off.
Yet Klopp loses control quite regular both at his players and the officials , Ferguson was known for it too so thats old and new style managers . I've no issue during a match , it's when it's happening all week long that bothers me which as of yet we don't have any proof .
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Definitely. The 2002/03 side was much worse than these ability wise but made more of a fist of it than these could dare dream of. Pathetic.
Defensively the 02/03 side were far better. We came into this season off the back of 27 clean sheets. I agree though they had a lot more grit than our current lot.
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Defensively the 02/03 side were far better. We came into this season off the back of 27 clean sheets. I agree though they had a lot more grit than our current lot.
Attacking wise they were far inferior though. All comes back to the mental side of the game
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So we played better against the 2 sides that will come down with us, and the local derby? We can't really point to 10 mins here and there and go, "well we're not that much of a long ball team really".
90% of our play has been hoofing it into the channels and that's down to the tactics. What else can you do when your entire team is 35 yards from its own goal? You can't try and pass your way out of trouble as any loss of possession in that area will be lethal. And let's face it, I hardly think Sam is screaming "Neat little triangles on the edge of our BOX!!" at the top of his voice. :D
I thought I'd check our possession and pass success rate as it's a good set of stats to see how we set up and how we're generally performing....
Under Sam our averages are...
Possession: 31%
Pass success: 66%
Under Bilic...
Possession: 41%
Pass success: 75%
So we have less possession, the pass success rate has dropped, our goal difference has taken a hammering. So I thought I'd compare to the teams around us...
Possession Pass success
Sheff Utd 43% 76%
Fulham 48% 81%
Brighton 50% 80%
Burnley 41% 70%
We were just about keeping pass with them under Bilic. Under Sam we've fallen well behind.
Sam isn't working.
Those 3 games I mentioned are recent games.
Do you honestly expect us to keep possession more against better sides and beat them at their own game? Yeah, that’s not going to happen until we’ve built a competitive Premier league side to be able to match them.
Surprised that you think we will or would.
Possession stats really don’t mean a lot...not sure they backup any argument you’re trying to make.
So under Bilic, we just about kept up with possession with sides around us and that’s ok, but now we have a coach that isn’t renowned for possession football, and because the stats have dropped off for possesssion it suddenly means Allardyce isn’t working?
Possession football wasn’t working under Bilic either, yet many of you on here thought he wasn’t worth sacking..
I don’t get it
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Yet Klopp loses control quite regular both at his players and the officials , Ferguson was known for it too so thats old and new style managers . I've no issue during a match , it's when it's happening all week long that bothers me which as of yet we don't have any proof .
Sir Gary was not exactly a shrinking violet either!
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Those 3 games I mentioned are recent games.
Do you honestly expect us to keep possession more against better sides and beat them at their own game? Yeah, that’s not going to happen until we’ve built a competitive Premier league side to be able to match them.
Surprised that you think we will or would.
Possession stats really don’t mean a lot...not sure they backup any argument you’re trying to make.
So under Bilic, we just about kept up with possession with sides around us and that’s ok, but now we have a coach that isn’t renowned for possession football, and because the stats have dropped off for possesssion it suddenly means Allardyce isn’t working?
Possession football wasn’t working under Bilic either, yet many of you on here thought he wasn’t worth sacking..
With Allardyce's record so far being:
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26
and us conceding twice as many goals compared to Bilic's last 9 games, I wonder just how much worse things would have to get under Allardyce before you regarded him as not working?
Isn't having less possession and a lower pass success rate likely to increase pressure on an already creaky defence? If so, is it so unreasonable to relate both of those worsening stats to a significant increase in the goals we've conceded since Allardyce took over? If you don't accept that, what's your explanation for that increase? For us to concede twice as many goals isn't down to bad luck.
I suppose a better comparison might be shots for v shots against during the games in question, but I don't know where boinging_along is getting his stats from.
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Why the dear me? Is there any need?
I don’t agree with you. I’ve seen some good football at times, nowhere near enough but some good football. I’ve seen some long ball aswell, I have no issue with that when it’s mixed in with other styles of play.
I’m more surprised that people think Bilic’s football was any good. It was awful and painful to watch at best. Slow, ponderous and didn’t create any chances either.
1-0, 3-0 or 5-0 the result is the same. A loss and 0 points.
I'm afraid that your memory is failing you old chap. The first half of last season we played some brilliant, entertaining football under Bilic. Even in the second half, though the performances were more patchy, there were times where we were great to watch. What's more, you thought the exact same thing by and large. Go back to your posts during this period. You were loving it, full of praise for the team, full of praise for Bilic. Only consistent criticism was towards the Board for not giving him enough backing. You were dead right about that, but no need to start re-writing history.
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Those 3 games I mentioned are recent games.
Do you honestly expect us to keep possession more against better sides and beat them at their own game? Yeah, that’s not going to happen until we’ve built a competitive Premier league side to be able to match them.
Surprised that you think we will or would.
Possession stats really don’t mean a lot...not sure they backup any argument you’re trying to make.
So under Bilic, we just about kept up with possession with sides around us and that’s ok, but now we have a coach that isn’t renowned for possession football, and because the stats have dropped off for possesssion it suddenly means Allardyce isn’t working?
Possession football wasn’t working under Bilic either, yet many of you on here thought he wasn’t worth sacking..
I don’t get it
What's not working is the results. Not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. I compared possession stats with from the same set of players. Not sure why you mention my expectation to do with who we play. We played the top teams under Bilic and Sam, and we've played the bottom teams.
My point is that we have a team that isn't great at defending. The stats show that under Sam we have to do a lot more defending. Thats what the possession stats show and that's down to Sam's tactics.
The players haven't suddenly forgotten how to pass, so pass success rate dropping is another symptom of how we are setting up. Which makes sense as we are sitting so deep we don't have any outballs. Another thing down to Sam's tactics.
Then if you look at the results and the number of goals conceded you can clearly see we are struggling and why. We are not playing to this team's strengths (however small they are).
Hence the assertion that Sam, and his tactics, aren't working.
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With Allardyce's record so far being:
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26
and us conceding twice as many goals compared to Bilic's last 9 games, I wonder just how much worse things would have to get under Allardyce before you regarded him as not working?
Isn't having less possession and a lower pass success rate likely to increase pressure on an already creaky defence? If so, is it so unreasonable to relate both of those worsening stats to a significant increase in the goals we've conceded since Allardyce took over? If you don't accept that, what's your explanation for that increase? For us to concede twice as many goals isn't down to bad luck.
I suppose a better comparison might be shots for v shots against during the games in question, but I don't know where boinging_along is getting his stats from.
To be fair the lack of trying and lapses of concentration from players added in with silly mistakes were to blame for that for me. Not Allardyce. But that’s my opinion.
And no less possession doesn’t equal more pressure at all.
A team could have 75% of possession with the majority of that being passed along the back line so how would that put more pressure on us??
Stats can be used to make a point but they do not always paint the correct picture.
I personally don’t think Allardyce has had the effect we wanted. I have seen some glimmers though and now his players are in I expect there to be improvements.
If we don’t see them then I’ll happily say Allardyce isn’t working for us.
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@worcs.
I got the stats from whoscored.com, I'll dig out the goals for and against as well tonight.
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Those 3 games I mentioned are recent games.
Do you honestly expect us to keep possession more against better sides and beat them at their own game? Yeah, that’s not going to happen until we’ve built a competitive Premier league side to be able to match them.
Surprised that you think we will or would.
Possession stats really don’t mean a lot...not sure they backup any argument you’re trying to make.
So under Bilic, we just about kept up with possession with sides around us and that’s ok, but now we have a coach that isn’t renowned for possession football, and because the stats have dropped off for possesssion it suddenly means Allardyce isn’t working?
Possession football wasn’t working under Bilic either, yet many of you on here thought he wasn’t worth sacking..
I don’t get it
So if Allardyce's style isn't possession football and isn't (according to you) hoofball, how would you describe his style and tactics exactly?
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Keeps faith with the senior squad members who time and time again let him down if he doesnt play the four outfield players signed in window tomorrow then I give up.
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What's not working is the results. Not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. I compared possession stats with from the same set of players. Not sure why you mention my expectation to do with who we play. We played the top teams under Bilic and Sam, and we've played the bottom teams.
My point is that we have a team that isn't great at defending. The stats show that under Sam we have to do a lot more defending. Thats what the possession stats show and that's down to Sam's tactics.
The players haven't suddenly forgotten how to pass, so pass success rate dropping is another symptom of how we are setting up. Which makes sense as we are sitting so deep we don't have any outballs. Another thing down to Sam's tactics.
Then if you look at the results and the number of goals conceded you can clearly see we are struggling and why. We are not playing to this team's strengths (however small they are).
Hence the assertion that Sam, and his tactics, aren't working.
The results all season under 2 managers haven’t been good. Whether we’ve had more possession or less possession. So possession of the ball hasn’t made a jot of difference to the end results for us.
As for passing....our players haven’t been able to pass to each other all season. The stats will be skewed because Bilic tried and failed to play a passing game with players that can’t find each other. We have a manager now that isn’t renowned for tiki taka but is much more pragmatic. So our already low possession stats will drop.
We’ve not been able to defend since last season. And then we didn’t address those issues in the summer instead chasing players for morale boosts rather than to improve the side defensively, be that midfield or defenders.
Allardyce has seen the weaknesses and gone out and grabbed players for the midfield to shield our defence better.
I’ll give Allardyce his time to bed his players in and hope to see improvements. Jury is out for me on Allardyce but I’m not going to beat him with a possession stat stick when we were awful under Bilic as a passing side.
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So if Allardyce's style isn't possession football and isn't (according to you) hoofball, how would you describe his style and tactics exactly?
Pragmatic....
Same as Hodgson there is a mix of both styles.
That is possible you know, you don’t have to be one or the other
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Pragmatic....
Same as Hodgson there is a mix of both styles.
That is possible you know, you don’t have to be one or the other
What does that even mean? Well, I know what it means technically, but what does it mean in relation to analysing his chosen style and tactics? It means doing things in a sensible and realistic way. I saw plenty of that from Roy, who would mix up the team and tactics according to who our opponents were, but I haven't seen anything remotely sensible or realistic from Allardyce to date.
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What does that even mean? Well, I know what it means technically, but what does it mean in relation to analysing his chosen style and tactics? It means doing things in a sensible and realistic way. I saw plenty of that from Roy, who would mix up the team and tactics according to who our opponents were, but I haven't seen anything remotely sensible or realistic from Allardyce to date.
And like I said, once his players bed in I expect to see improvements.
A totally unbalanced side left by the previous incumbent with players missing in important positions is going to hinder any realistic or sensible decisions on the playing side of things for anyone taking over.
You could say Allardyce was realisitic and sensible at every side he has managed.
Then all of sudden he isn’t when he joins us??
Like Joe Biden says â€Come on maaaanâ€
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I got the stats from whoscored.com, I'll dig out the goals for and against as well tonight.
Cheers mate, it's shots rather than goals that I'd like to see if possible please? I'll be very interested to see those as it might be surprising in some respects.
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Just a note, possession is a fairly terrible metric to use.
Possession is just the ratio of passes between the two teams. Say a game has 1000 passes, and one team makes 400 and the other 600, then the possession is 40-60. It doesn't account for where those passes are made, how progressive they are, or how much players carry the ball, nor how much time the ball is actually in play.
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And like I said, once his players bed in I expect to see improvements.
A totally unbalanced side left by the previous incumbent with players missing in important positions is going to hinder any realistic or sensible decisions on the playing side of things for anyone taking over.
You could say Allardyce was realisitic and sensible at every side he has managed.
Then all of sudden he isn’t when he joins us??
Like Joe Biden says â€Come on maaaanâ€
As I said in a previous post, you weren't saying too much against Bilic when we were tearing up the league. Quite the opposite in fact. In any case, the balance of the squad is the responsibility of the DOF not the head coach.
I'm sure there will be a bit of improvement at some point but it won't be enough. At the end of the season all the loanees will go back and Allardyce will hopefully be gone, leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many of us. His methods are out of date, and he is out of touch with how modern football is played. He was the wrong appointment for us and I think you may come around to that point of view by the end of the season.
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As I said in a previous post, you weren't saying too much against Bilic when we were tearing up the league. Quite the opposite in fact. In any case, the balance of the squad is the responsibility of the DOF not the head coach.
I'm sure there will be a bit of improvement at some point but it won't be enough. At the end of the season all the loanees will go back and Allardyce will hopefully be gone, leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many of us. His methods are out of date, and he is out of touch with how modern football is played. He was the wrong appointment for us and I think you may come around to that point of view by the end of the season.
Who wasn’t saying anything about Bilic...and which league did we tear up?
I was quite vocal about the poor performances last season, quite vocal about the lack of a Plan B....
I’ve been vocal about how poor we’ve been since Jan until Bilic left.
You can’t bring yourself to blame Bilic for any of the poor recruitment can you? He tells the DOF where we are lacking and they go out and get those players
There has been a few occasions where a player has been brought possibly by the DOF for the future or for some kind of resale. But the majority are Bilic’s signings.
Just a shame he didn’t want a decent CDM or a decent striker. Instead we are overloaded with wingers or wide forwards...
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And that leads me back to the unbalanced side that was left over that Allardyce has inherited.
Many people commented on how it looked like the players had downed tools at the time aswell. It also explains the shocking results we had.
Now he has addressed positions we were screaming out for.
If no improvement is made then I’ll happily say Allardyce hasn’t worked out. But that would be stating the obvious then and there will be no need to
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Who wasn’t saying anything about Bilic...and which league did we tear up?
I was quite vocal about the poor performances last season, quite vocal about the lack of a Plan B....
I’ve been vocal about how poor we’ve been since Jan until Bilic left.
You can’t bring yourself to blame Bilic for any of the poor recruitment can you? He tells the DOF where we are lacking and they go out and get those players
There has been a few occasions where a player has been brought possibly by the DOF for the future or for some kind of resale. But the majority are Bilic’s signings.
Just a shame he didn’t want a decent CDM or a decent striker. Instead we are overloaded with wingers or wide forwards...
It's well documented that Bilic wanted a defensive midfielder in the summer and to say he just gives a list of positions that need filling to the DOF who then goes out and buys the players required is pretty simplistic and incorrect.
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The Gray v Toney arguement should have been irrelevant as Bilic first choice was Orsic I always thought
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It's well documented that Bilic wanted a defensive midfielder in the summer and to say he just gives a list of positions that need filling to the DOF who then goes out and buys the players required is pretty simplistic and incorrect.
I didn’t say he just gives a list and we go sign them, because other teams may be involved so we can’t just sign who we want.
I said he would identify the positions he wanted and give them to the DOF. Which is what would happen.
If he was after one why didn’t we sign one? Why continue with signing players like Krov when he hadn’t played him much the season before if it was choice, due to budget, of a CDM that we did need over a hardly used AM we didn’t need.
Why overload us with wide forwards when a decent, mobile strong ST was required!
Allardyce has had to address these positions because Bilic didn’t
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The Gray v Toney arguement should have been irrelevant as Bilic first choice was Orsic I always thought
He is also a wide forward....so the debate still stands
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Who wasn’t saying anything about Bilic...and which league did we tear up?
I was quite vocal about the poor performances last season, quite vocal about the lack of a Plan B....
I’ve been vocal about how poor we’ve been since Jan until Bilic left.
You can’t bring yourself to blame Bilic for any of the poor recruitment can you? He tells the DOF where we are lacking and they go out and get those players
There has been a few occasions where a player has been brought possibly by the DOF for the future or for some kind of resale. But the majority are Bilic’s signings.
Just a shame he didn’t want a decent CDM or a decent striker. Instead we are overloaded with wingers or wide forwards...
I accept that the head coach will have discussions with the DOF about certain players that they would like to bring in, but at the end of the day the final decision is the DOF's. The balance of the squad is entirely the responsibility of the DOF. I don't think you fully get this.
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I accept that the head coach will have discussions with the DOF about certain players that they would like to bring in, but at the end of the day the final decision is the DOF's. The balance of the squad is entirely the responsibility of the DOF. I don't think you fully get this.
I think this is where things went pear shaped , we didn't need Krov as 3rd choice midfielder , we didn't need Ivanovic as 5th CB while Hegazi was still here and Bilic again dug his heels in for Grant for a fair chunk of money.
I think thats where the wheels fell off between them all and not one of those players has added anything.
Clearly stated before Bilic had last say on players , well I'm sure I saw that anyway ;D
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I accept that the head coach will have discussions with the DOF about certain players that they would like to bring in, but at the end of the day the final decision is the DOF's. The balance of the squad is entirely the responsibility of the DOF. I don't think you fully get this.
There is nothing to get..
DOF is not responsible at all for the balance of the squad....
How is Luke Dowling responsible for knowing what is needed? It’s based on how the head coach wants to play, what needs improving...
The playing staff is on the whole down to what the head coach wants
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DOF isnt responsible for the balance of the squad. Down to the manager. Bilic wanted Krov and Grant at all costs. Simples.
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DOF isnt responsible for the balance of the squad. Down to the manager. Bilic wanted Krov and Grant at all costs. Simples.
So it's entirely Allardyce's decision and responsibility not to bring in any new defenders in the last window? Even I wouldn't level that against him.
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So it's entirely Allardyce's decision and responsibility not to bring in any new defenders in the last window? Even I wouldn't level that against him.
He spent 150k and had enough for 3 loans based on departures freeing up wages for us. What do you want him to do?
The money was squandered under Bilic and DOwling already
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So it's entirely Allardyce's decision and responsibility not to bring in any new defenders in the last window? Even I wouldn't level that against him.
Or perhaps he thinks we don’t need new defenders but better protection infront of them ...
Imagine if he realised that and went out and signed 2 new defensive minded midfielders instead....imagine he did that
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He spent 150k and had enough for 3 loans based on departures freeing up wages for us. What do you want him to do?
The money was squandered under Bilic and DOwling already
So before he agreed to come, he was told you will have only £150k to spend, and he said that's fine, I'll come anyway? If that's the case either he came just for a final payday, he thought the current squad was broadly good enough and he could improve them, or he has been betrayed by false promises. Which of these do you think is correct?
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Or perhaps he thinks we don’t need new defenders but better protection infront of them ...
Imagine if he realised that and went out and signed 2 new defensive minded midfielders instead....imagine he did that
I can't imagine that ;D
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So before he agreed to come, he was told you will have only £150k to spend, and he said that's fine, I'll come anyway? If that's the case either he came just for a final payday, he thought the current squad was broadly good enough and he could improve them, or he has been betrayed by false promises. Which of these do you think is correct?
How do you know he came for a final payday? What is that assumption based on?
My guess is he thought they just needed galvanising and he would be the man to help do that unfortunately what he couldn't know until he got to know these men is that they have the spine of a jellyfish. I'd say he misjudged their character more than anything.
I'm happy with the 4 signings on paper. Midfield is balanced now after 18 months FINALLY.
Too late though in reality. We have decided to enter the competitive fray at game 23 of a 38 game season.
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So before he agreed to come, he was told you will have only £150k to spend, and he said that's fine, I'll come anyway? If that's the case either he came just for a final payday, he thought the current squad was broadly good enough and he could improve them, or he has been betrayed by false promises. Which of these do you think is correct?
Could be neither of your scenarios.
He came in, why or how he came in isn’t up for debate.
The players he wanted to sign he got.
The players he wanted rid of he got rid of bar a couple who fell through in the window (Grosicki, Edwards).
This agenda against Allardyce is bordering on the ridiculous
Why is the argument changing now?
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So it's entirely Allardyce's decision and responsibility not to bring in any new defenders in the last window? Even I wouldn't level that against him.
Yes it's on him if we continue to ship goals, he had a, albeit very limited, opportunity to address the defence so he has to take responsibility.
If, however, the revamped midfield has a positive impact, he must get credit.
Bilic made massive errors in how he used the meagre budget, time will tell if Allardyce has done the same.
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How do you know he came for a final payday? What is that assumption based on?
My guess is he thought they just needed galvanising and he would be the man to help do that unfortunately what he couldn't know until he got to know these men is that they have the spine of a jellyfish. I'd say he misjudged their character more than anything.
I'm happy with the 4 signings on paper. Midfield is balanced now after 18 months FINALLY.
Too late though in reality. We have decided to enter the competitive fray at game 23 of a 38 game season.
I didn't say he did.
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So before he agreed to come, he was told you will have only £150k to spend, and he said that's fine, I'll come anyway? If that's the case either he came just for a final payday,
You provided that option or another i didnt agree with.
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Could be neither of your scenarios.
He came in, why or how he came in isn’t up for debate.
The players he wanted to sign he got.
The players he wanted rid of he got rid of bar a couple who fell through in the window (Grosicki, Edwards).
This agenda against Allardyce is bordering on the ridiculous
Why is the argument changing now?
1 I offered 3 alternatives, so not an either/or
2 Of course it is. It's a football forum.
3 100% assumption. You thinking something and a fact are 2 different things, so this is just an assumption
4 As above
4
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You provided that option or another i didnt agree with.
Yes, I gave 3 options. You said which one you agreed with.
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Yes, I gave 3 options. You said which one you agreed with.
Which was none, (edit) whats the 3rd choice? I might be reading it worng
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Keeps faith with the senior squad members who time and time again let him down if he doesnt play the four outfield players signed in window tomorrow then I give up.
He’s already said that Yokuslu will be on the bench as he’s not played that often.
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He’s already said that Yokuslu will be on the bench as he’s not played that often.
Should fit in well if he's not up to speed ;D .
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Should fit in well if he's not up to speed ;D .
If he's not good enough to displace Livermore then our hopes were dramatically misplaced.
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Yes, I gave 3 options. You said which one you agreed with.
Haha we're getting all mixed up. You answered the other option in your second para, which is fine
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1 I offered 3 alternatives, so not an either/or
2 Of course it is. It's a football forum.
3 100% assumption. You thinking something and a fact are 2 different things, so this is just an assumption
4 As above
4
1. I said neither..not either
2. My typo....should have said ‘the debate’
3. He wanted to sign Snodgrass, Yokuslu, AMN and Diagne...he got them. Those are facts...
4. He may well have wanted rid of others so yes it’s an assumption. However he obviously wanted rid of Krov and he was gone and year loan cut short even though it cost us the year loan fee still. I’m sure if he wanted rid of anyone else they would have gone like say Ivanovic who I’m sure we could have come to an agreement with to release on x amount. But we didn’t.
Got anything else??
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There seems to be an awful lot of bickering going on recently. It’s very off putting.
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There seems to be an awful lot of bickering going on recently. It’s very off putting.
Yep, no need to dismantle ourselves, the critics outside are doing that for us.
We can criticise any coach - and both of them to my mind have been at fault - but we just HAVE to see what SA can do now with the new additions. I think we have had a better window than usual for January... strap yourselves in for the last 16 games.
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He’s already said that Yokuslu will be on the bench as he’s not played that often.
none of our players look remotely fit so I'd start him
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none of our players look remotely fit so I'd start him
Would probably be in top 3 fittest we have with the other 2 new outfield signings.
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It's OK because on official site Allardyce thinks Maitland-Miles and Okay aren't up to starting v Spurs!!!
So when teams are announced at 11am, I expect his mate Livermore to be selected again.
Probably not even worth watching if JL starts, guaranteed loss.
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Why is anyone trying to pretend that Allardyce hasn't made us worse? It's there to see in possession, results, goals against, points from safety. He's clearly not been able to go as good a job as Bilic was doing. That shouldn't be a debate. More awkward to acknowledge that I guess for those who wanted Bilic gone.
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Why is anyone trying to pretend that Allardyce hasn't made us worse? It's there to see in possession, results, goals against, points from safety. He's clearly not been able to go as good a job as Bilic was doing. That shouldn't be a debate. More awkward to acknowledge that I guess for those who wanted Bilic gone.
Bilić 0.54 ppg. Allardyce 0.56 ppg hope this helps.
At best in defence of Bilić you could say it hasn't really improved (even though it very marginally has)
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Bilić 0.54 ppg. Allardyce 0.56 ppg hope this helps.
At best in defence of Bilić you could say it hasn't really improved (even though it very marginally has)
Allardyce PPG is only at a similar level to Bilic currently because he had four few games and only two games against the elite teams. The manner of the defeats however has been far, far worse. Which is surprising given his supposed strength was his ability to organise the team defensively. We were 3 points off safety when Allardyce took over with a GD of -16. We are now 10 points off safety with a goal difference of -34. Allardyce has managed to more than double our goal difference against in less games and we are no longer within closing distance of safety. That's a terrible output. We have to pray the new signings make an impact. Although news AMN isn't starting tomorrow isn't good and I'm concerned that Allardyce keeps playing past it players like Phillips and Livermore and wasn't brave enough to stick with Button when he had the chance.
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Still bleating on about keeping clean sheets 10 games in, that's a job he's been handsomely paid to fix.
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So far Allardyce has failed to address the following areas:
1) Failed to improve / organise the defence. An area on which he has built his reputation!!!! In fact we have shown a big downturn, why?
2) Continued to pick old players that are too slow / lack quality for this league, even when other personnel are available for selection.
3) Talks about individual mistakes but in every match (even WWFC) we are 2nd in every single stat; possession, passes, shots, shots on targets etc.
4) Seemingly in no rush to change it around / introduce new players, despite the margin to safety growing larger. So no realisation about the seriousness.
The sniping about Bilic's signings are silly. He should make us £40m on Pereira along (he is that good).
Pulis spent £26m on Livermore & Burke, that is what you call a waste.
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Allardyce PPG is only at a similar level to Bilic currently because he had four few games and only two games against the elite teams. The manner of the defeats however has been far, far worse. Which is surprising given his supposed strength was his ability to organise the team defensively. We were 3 points off safety when Allardyce took over with a GD of -16. We are now 10 points off safety with a goal difference of -34. Allardyce has managed to more than double our goal difference against in less games and we are no longer within closing distance of safety. That's a terrible output. We have to pray the new signings make an impact. Although news AMN isn't starting tomorrow isn't good and I'm concerned that Allardyce keeps playing past it players like Phillips and Livermore and wasn't brave enough to stick with Button when he had the chance.
It's the only metric that matters when comparing the 2 and as soon as we win another game, it's discussion over for another 4 weeks.
Goals against this, points from safety that. Fact is results have improved albeit only very slightly.
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We could have draft Captain Kirk in to our version of the Titanic after heating the iceberg and, evenwith hall his technolog and beam me up Scotty, it would be of no avail as the damage had already been done
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We could have draft Captain Kirk in to our version of the Titanic after heating the iceberg and, evenwith hall his technolog and beam me up Scotty, it would be of no avail as the damage had already been done
He could always beam the entire opposing squad off the pitch? We'd only lose one-nil per game then.
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Bilić 0.54 ppg. Allardyce 0.56 ppg hope this helps.
At best in defence of Bilić you could say it hasn't really improved (even though it very marginally has)
"It's the only metric that matters when comparing the two"? I would suggest that you think it's the only metric that matters because it is the only metric in which Allardyce is ahead. And even then, he has "improved" us so much that we would, at this rate, get about an extra point every one and a half seasons. Really scraping the barrel in terms of defending the appointment of Allardyce.
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Should be sacked for today’s line up alone!
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Great idea that to leave Pereira on the bench!
Just blocking and defending from the start.
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Nice try Jacko but to claim that PPG rate that is the equivalent of 0.5 a point better across a whole season is in anyway significant of anything is just clutching at straws. Allardyce gets us relegated on 21 points and Bilic at 20 (rounding down both totals). Either PPG is only going to result in one outcome relegation.
Should be sacked for today’s line up alone!
Just seen it no I don't understand either.
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Great idea that to leave Pereira on the bench!
Just blocking and defending from the start.
Which would happen against Spurs anyway....
Plenty of attacking players in there aswell
Peltier is the only problem in that lineup for me....
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Which would happen against Spurs anyway....
Plenty of attacking players in there aswell
Peltier is the only problem in that lineup for me....
Glad you think it's acceptable to have Pereira on the bench....
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Should be sacked for today’s line up alone!
is that what he wants? Judging by the lineup I'd say he's waving white flag.
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Glad you think it's acceptable to have Pereira on the bench....
I don’t.
But perhaps he’s carrying an injury.
Happy for him to make it worse?
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It's the only metric that matters when comparing the 2 and as soon as we win another game, it's discussion over for another 4 weeks.
Goals against this, points from safety that. Fact is results have improved albeit only very slightly.
Haven’t done the sums but think it’s a fair expectation we lose the next 2 games which knocks the PPG down further before we get a chance to win another game
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We were struggling before he came and are not struggling any less since he came. And as a bonus we are conceding goals for fun. There is no case for saying he’s improved things.
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Desperate from you to insinuate Pereira has an injury. So what the hell is Mourinho doing selecting Kane after a short period of rehab?
Maybe Kane wasn’t as injured as being made out to be?
Did that cross your mind?
Players carry knocks all the time? Get benched and used sparingly instead.
There are are rumours of a falling out in the week....
The only thing that’s desperate is the constant knocking of Allardyce
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Maybe Kane wasn’t as injured as being made out to be?
Did that cross your mind?
Players carry knocks all the time? Get benched and used sparingly instead.
There are are rumours of a falling out in the week....
The only thing that’s desperate is the constant knocking of Allardyce
That’s unfair there are many that said Allardyce wasn’t the man wanted or required that it is not knocking it is stating opinion , confess I was one and have seen nothing to convince me he even knows where the road is let alone get on the right one !
In over 55 years of attending I have seen many poor teams and managers this is by no means a group of players as bad as we had through the majority of the 80’s and 90 s . Allardyce s appointment given the type of squad we had was very very poor in no way did we have the type of players or the type of funds to play and react to his preferred way of playing .
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For me - the jury is now out after giving Allardyce time. We simply have to start winning games. Whether it’s Spurs, Manu U, Burnley or Brighton. We just have to start adding 3 points in as many games as possible.
I’m not pleased that Pereira is benched. He’s up for player of the month and has been involved in most of our goals in January. Seems a strange decision.
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Maybe Kane wasn’t as injured as being made out to be?
Did that cross your mind?
Players carry knocks all the time? Get benched and used sparingly instead.
There are are rumours of a falling out in the week....
The only thing that’s desperate is the constant knocking of Allardyce
Bilic was getting a hard time before he was sacked. Allardyce has made things worse. I think it’s reasonable for fans to be fed up when things have got worse. Let’s hope today it turns for the better.
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That’s unfair there are many that said Allardyce wasn’t the man wanted or required that it is not knocking it is stating opinion , confess I was one and have seen nothing to convince me he even knows where the road is let alone get on the right one !
In over 55 years of attending I have seen many poor teams and managers this is by no means a group of players as bad as we had through the majority of the 80’s and 90 s . Allardyce s appointment given the type of squad we had was very very poor in no way did we have the type of players or the type of funds to play and react to his preferred way of playing .
It’s not about stopping opinion.
It’s the blind hated of Allardyce that ruins their points.
It’s constant and I for one find it immensely boring.
Negativity all the time....can’t stand it
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It’s not about stopping opinion.
It’s the blind hated of Allardyce that ruins their points.
It’s constant and I for one find it immensely boring.
Negativity all the time....can’t stand it
I don’t hate Allardyce, however that does not change my opinion that it was a big mistake appointing him.
Sorry if you believe that’s negative, I believe it is reality.
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I don’t hate Allardyce, however that does not change my opinion that it was a big mistake appointing him.
Sorry if you believe that’s negative, I believe it is reality.
That opinion isn’t negative....the constant barracking is.
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That opinion isn’t negative....the constant barracking is.
We have been on a run of getting annihilated at home in an embarrassing manner and have then backed that up by collapsing in must win games; inevitable that Allardyce would get a ton of stick, you have to go back to Barnsley in 1998 to find a team letting in as many goals.
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Allardyce plays in a cowardly manner just as Pulis did.
It's just an insult to the fans to leave Pereira on the bench.
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Worcs
Worked out the average shots for and against...
Bilic For: 10 Against: 16
Sam For: 6 Against: 17
So our shots against are roughly the same (a bit worse under Sam) but we are having nowhere near the same attempts on target. Would also add the shots for under Sam are skewed by the Wolves game where we had 12 and the only game we got near double figures for shots. We have double figures for shots 1 in 9 games under Sam (10 if you count today), but under Bilic it was 5 in 13
Points to our tactics having a huge effect on the attacking side. It's also not help out the defending side at all. In fact when you count the difference in goals against, we're conceding way more goals from a similar number of chances.
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I thought it was a good appointment but it’s just not working. Is it worth getting rid and preparing for next season?
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Worcs
Worked out the average shots for and against...
Bilic For: 10 Against: 16
Sam For: 6 Against: 17
So our shots against are roughly the same (a bit worse under Sam) but we are having nowhere near the same attempts on target. Would also add the shots for under Sam are skewed by the Wolves game where we had 12 and the only game we got near double figures for shots. We have double figures for shots 1 in 9 games under Sam (10 if you count today), but under Bilic it was 5 in 13
Points to our tactics having a huge effect on the attacking side. It's also not help out the defending side at all. In fact when you count the difference in goals against, we're conceding way more goals from a similar number of chances.
We’re playing less football, having less of the ball, mounting fewer attacks and inviting more pressure into our box. The team was better coached and more cohesive under Bilic.
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I thought it was a good appointment but it’s just not working. Is it worth getting rid and preparing for next season?
Tactically it was always going to be a poor appointment - asking a team of poor defenders to do more defending isn't going to work. We were just never close to be a side that will hold out for 0-0 and sneak the odd goal.
I would definitely get rid now. He's clearly taken us backwards at a rate of knots. If the whatsapp rumours are true then even more reason to get rid and bring someone in who can get a bit of team morale going again. Like it or not we're going to rely on most of these players next season so it's vital we start building towards that. We won't be in the Prem.
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Yep I want him gone. There’s no benefit to him staying for any longer other than effectively being a caretaker for the next manager.
Confidence in the board making a good selection for our next manager? Zero.
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We’re playing less football, having less of the ball, mounting fewer attacks and inviting more pressure into our box. The team was better coached and more cohesive under Bilic.
What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
And yet we're several grades worse than that now.
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
But we are worse now. That’s the but I don’t get about your posts. We are worse under Allardyce. Our ambition is worse our playing style is worse our ambition is worse.
And pereira has proved. In his first few touches just how bad the selection for this game was.
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But we are worse now. That’s the but I don’t get about your posts. We are worse under Allardyce. Our ambition is worse our playing style is worse our ambition is worse.
And pereira has proved. In his first few touches just how bad the selection for this game was.
That's what I don't get too - like it's fine to point out how poor we were under Bilic - but we are way worse than that now. It would make sense if we were just as poor - but we are demonstrably worse, it's not even close.
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
If we are utterly awful under Billic, what are under Sam? He is past his sell by date you cant play this way an expect to win games, concede fewer goals, create chances etc etc. We have become so much worse under him. Team selections baffle me game after game after game.
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
The issue is we are now worse under Allardyce
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I thought it was a good appointment but it’s just not working. Is it worth getting rid and preparing for next season?
If the manager we want is currently either available, or could be attracted to join us now, then yes.
(In reality I can't see us getting rid until we're confirmed relegated)
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If this blokes at the Albion next year, then I won’t be! (Assuming we can come back in then)
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And yet we're several grades worse than that now.
That’s exactly the point. The team wasn’t great under Bilic given the lack of quality but was better than this.
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Another Pardew...
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Arsing about in the last couple mins pretending to take a throw in, thinking he’s funny.
Get this clown out of my club, clearly here for one last pay cheque. The only positive of this appointment is it’s one less dinosaur in football once he’s gone from here.
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See his antiques on sideline, result doesn't seem to bother him he should f off now. Thought clueless was bad but Sam is worse board need to act.
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
I said “more cohesiveâ€, the nuance appears to have gone over your head.
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What cohesion is this you’re taking about under Bilic?
That is simply not true....we were utterly awful under Bilic
This constant negativity about Bilic, can't stand it.
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Another Pardew...
I'd say worse and I'd never thought I would ever ever say that. Not even Dowling and Co would keep Big sam on next season. If we are in a postion to sell season tickets, how many will buy on the strength of a Big Sam team.
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Right last chance, getting sick of the squabbling, cut the personal digs or you will be gone, there are some already close and some on borrowed time which is running out.
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If the manager we want is currently either available, or could be attracted to join us now, then yes.
(In reality I can't see us getting rid until we're confirmed relegated)
I’m just trying to think what managers are out of contract. :D
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I said “more cohesiveâ€, the nuance appears to have gone over your head.
I seriously think you need to come to terms with the fact Slaven Bilić is gone and isn’t coming back.
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This constant negativity about Bilic, can't stand it.
Me neither.
Under Bilic there were several games where we were more than competitive and unlucky to not get more from them - United, Chelsea, Spurs, plus Palace & Everton until silly red cards.
Under Allardyce it's hard to think of us deserving any more than the few points he has won.
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This constant negativity about Bilic, can't stand it.
Hear hear.
How dare he get us promoted with a very average squad.
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This constant negativity about Bilic, can't stand it.
I haven’t been negative about Bilic....
I’ve answered replies where his name is brought up.
I don’t make posts about Bilic in a negative way. I don’t mention him unless someone else replies to me and mentions him.
The comparison between the 2 is ridiculous because they have both been awful this season. Neither of them have got us going at all
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I have changed my mind. Its time to go and should go tonight. The guy should of stayed retired. We are going down with a wimper. Dropping your best player is a absolute disgrace. 15 games left to gain some pride back. Bin him off and get a caretaker in.
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I'd say worse and I'd never thought I would ever ever say that. Not even Dowling and Co would keep Big sam on next season. If we are in a postion to sell season tickets, how many will buy on the strength of a Big Sam team.
I think overall he is doing a very average job, 5/10 for me. Bilic did a good job with a weak team that left us short. Whereas Allardyce is doing an average job with a weak team, so we’re further back. Rio Ferdinand on BT slating the defenders not Sawyers for Kane’s goal which is correct.
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I seriously think you need to come to terms with the fact Slaven Bilić is gone and isn’t coming back.
I came to terms with it the minute he was sacked, however that doesn’t mean Allardyce was the right replacement. We have been very poor under Allardyce and that’s why you get the constant reference to Bilic.
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From what i've seen so far seems to me that Allardyce didn't realise what he was coming into, his selection today was shocking. We don't have the finances to buy our way out of it like he has done elsewhere so its a case of his coaching ability (or little Sams) to get us going, hasn't worked so far and no sign of it working.
Utd next week so anything is a bonus but then we have 4 games against Burnley, Brighton, Newcastle and Palace. Its 11 points already plus with our goal difference making it worse so those 4 games we have to go looking to win (yeah I know we've only won 2 all season), fail and he might as well go.
For me he can go now.
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Me neither.
Under Bilic there were several games where we were more than competitive and unlucky to not get more from them - United, Chelsea, Spurs, plus Palace & Everton until silly red cards.
Under Allardyce it's hard to think of us deserving any more than the few points he has won.
True. It’s just a fact that we are worse. The board has properly stuffed this up. There’s not much to look forward to at the moment.
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He simply has to pick our best 11 now. He has a whole week for Man U and we have to try and beat them.
Yokuslu, AMN, Pereira, Snodgrass then any one of Grant, Robinson, Diangana. This has to be the midfield now. Harsh on Gallagher.
For the goals. 1st goal is on Ajayi, Peltier and Sawyers and the second Sawyers and as Ferdinand just pointed out - Gallagher for not slowing down the game.
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I seriously think you need to come to terms with the fact Slaven Bilić is gone and isn’t coming back.
We're looking at how the current manager is doing. We can compare him to the previous manager who had the same batch of players. It doesn't mean we think he'll come back but how else do we judge Sam?
If Bilic had a far worse record and Sam's was the same as it is now we could point to the improvement and go, "see, he's not got much to work with but there's signs of an improvement".
As it stands we can look at how we did pre-Sam and, while it wasn't great, it was miles better than what we're doing now. Hence we can use it to point out poor a job Sam is doing.
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Hear hear.
How dare he get us promoted with a very average squad.
It’s average in the Prem.
It wasn’t in the Championship.
And I applauded him for getting us promoted. But let’s not forget that we were awful to watch from Jan to Nov under him....and that’s what I’m referencing
Allardyce hasn’t worked though so far. I’d like to see what happens in the next few games with Sawyers and Livermore dropped for the new guys.
Pereira back in and let’s see where we go from there.
No improvement and I’ll be asking for Allardyce to go aswell
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I have changed my mind. Its time to go and should go tonight. The guy should of stayed retired. We are going down with a wimper. Dropping your best player is a absolute disgrace. 15 games left to gain some pride back. Bin him off and get a caretaker in.
My prediction gone after Man U then Mozza takes the team for the remainder of the season
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From what i've seen so far seems to me that Allardyce didn't realise what he was coming into, his selection today was shocking. We don't have the finances to buy our way out of it like he has done elsewhere so its a case of his coaching ability (or little Sams) to get us going, hasn't worked so far and no sign of it working.
Utd next week so anything is a bonus but then we have 4 games against Burnley, Brighton, Newcastle and Palace. Its 11 points already plus with our goal difference making it worse so those 4 games we have to go looking to win (yeah I know we've only won 2 all season), fail and he might as well go.
For me he can go now.
Perfect summing up really. I get the impression that after (3?) Years out of the game, he was struggling for offers and we were the first desperados to approach him in some time. He has a lot of confidence in his ability and I think that over confidence meant he thought he could come and take over a footballing team and turn them into a solid defensive, structured unit overnight.
This will be his last job in the premier league, so I suppose British football does owe us some gratitude - we have seen off Pulis, Pardew and now Allardyce, meaning future jobs that come available should now be open to more progressive, younger British coaches.
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The comparison between the 2 is ridiculous because they have both been awful this season. Neither of them have got us going at all
But one was poor the other has been utterly utterly dreadful. They are not the same, we are clearly worse. We are judging Sam on his record and his record is simply terrible. It's worse than Bilic so we can't just blame the players - the manager has had an effect and it's taken us backwards at a rate of knots. Pointing out that Bilic didn't get much of a tune out of them doesn't make Sam's record look any better.
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My prediction gone after Man U then Mozza takes the team for the remainder of the season
Really hope Mozza would say no if it came to that.
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I came to terms with it the minute he was sacked, however that doesn’t mean Allardyce was the right replacement. We have been very poor under Allardyce and that’s why you get the constant reference to Bilic.
That wasn’t directed at you Aztech. It was for albion82, timdon and GREGMT.
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Really hope Mozza would say no if it came to that.
Me too. We’d possibly end up with another Moore situation if he did OK.
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That's what I don't get too - like it's fine to point out how poor we were under Bilic - but we are way worse than that now. It would make sense if we were just as poor - but we are demonstrably worse, it's not even close.
I think the problem is that things have got a bit tribal over Bilic and Allardyce. There are a lot of people who didn't want Bilic to go and get very defensive over any criticism of him. That had led to a bit of a "told you so" culture kicking in after every game and that then gets a reaction which just builds and builds.
I'll be glad when this season is over, as the place has been a bit like twittet of late, mainly over that subject.
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That wasn’t directed at you Aztech. It was for albion82, timdon and GREGMT.
I agree with Aztech.
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Me too. We’d possibly end up with another Moore situation if he did OK.
I'd just like someone to get some morale back in the squad - we look utterly devoid of any kind of team spirit now. We need to start looking towards next season and which of this squad will still be here. If the rumours are true about Pierera and Diangana (and I really hope not), then the small chance of having both for next season has got even smaller.
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I seriously think you need to come to terms with the fact Slaven Bilić is gone and isn’t coming back.
As boinging_along said comparing results and performances this season between the coaching staff is the only sensible metric we have to discuss the state of the team at the moment. I think your drive to replace managers have been an unmitigated disaster, appreciate we are all entitled to our opinions.
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ALLARDYCE OUT.
The Astle Gates might be decorated in the next couple of days....
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ALLARDYCE OUT.
The Astle Gates might be decorated in the next couple of days....
Hours.....
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I think the problem is that things have got a bit tribal over Bilic and Allardyce. There are a lot of people who didn't want Bilic to go and get very defensive over any criticism of him. That had led to a bit of a "told you so" culture kicking in after every game and that then gets a reaction which just builds and builds.
I'll be glad when this season is over, as the place has been a bit like twittet of late.
It would have been ok if Allardyce had brought anything to the club at all but sadly he hasn’t which is why the comparisons keeps coming up.
Without doubt appointing Allardyce has been a disaster and things have got worse. If the board decided to get rid of Bilic the they needed to find a manager who was the right fit and also could work to a budget. Allardyce is not a good fit and the majority of times he has turned a club round he’s had a good amount of funds in the Jan window.
A desperate situation.
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As boinging_along said comparing results and performances this season between the coaching staff is the only sensible metric we have to discuss the state of the team at the moment. I think your drive to replace managers have been an unmitigated disaster, appreciate we are all entitled to our opinions.
Even though the PPG has been better under Allardyce albeit marginal.
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It’s average in the Prem.
It wasn’t in the Championship.
And I applauded him for getting us promoted. But let’s not forget that we were awful to watch from Jan to Nov under him....and that’s what I’m referencing
Allardyce hasn’t worked though so far. I’d like to see what happens in the next few games with Sawyers and Livermore dropped for the new guys.
Pereira back in and let’s see where we go from there.
No improvement and I’ll be asking for Allardyce to go aswell
It's way, way below average for the Premier League.
You're right though - we were awful to watch in the second half of the season; it wasn't good enough. However, doesn't this add weight the view that Billic did a decent job with an average squad? A squad whose early season exploits overinflated expectations. We got promoted without a decent striker, a centre midfield who have been shown to be useless in the Premier League and an inconsistent defence. I personally feel Brentford's squad was superior to ours last season.
As for Allardyce, I have not commented since the day he was appointed when I referenced that he was not the manager I wanted. This was for multiple reasons (his football, his attitude, his ethics) but gave him a chance. I had pretty low expectations for his reign in all honesty, and at the moment he is living up to those expectations.
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It would have been ok if Allardyce had brought anything to the club at all but sadly he hasn’t which is why the comparisons keeps coming up.
Without doubt appointing Allardyce has been a disaster and things have got worse. If the board decided to get rid of Bilic the they needed to find a manager who was the right fit and also could work to a budget. Allardyce is not a good fit and the majority of times he has turned a club round he’s had a good amount of funds in the Jan window.
A desperate situation.
The problem is, the comparisons only show that Bilic and Allardyce are about the same (with Big Sam's defensive record just being weirdly worse).
I do agree that the board got the recruitment wrong and a better version of Bilic would have been the best course of action.
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I cant keep watching this. We can't defend we can't keep clean sheets.
Whats the saying, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Setting up for the 0-0 and then only attacking once we are behind is tragic. The minute we attacked and Pereira was on they looked vulnerable, by then it was all too late.
Great to see him having a laugh pretending to take a throw in at the end.
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It would have been ok if Allardyce had brought anything to the club at all but sadly he hasn’t which is why the comparisons keeps coming up.
Without doubt appointing Allardyce has been a disaster and things have got worse. If the board decided to get rid of Bilic the they needed to find a manager who was the right fit and also could work to a budget. Allardyce is not a good fit and the majority of times he has turned a club round he’s had a good amount of funds in the Jan window.
A desperate situation.
He's brought a much needed new midfield and striker, let's see how they get on before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
Bilić is gone, he isn't coming back and his record was only slightly better 0.54ppg to 0.5ppg so we'll continue having the discussion until Allardyce picks up another point.
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I cant keep watching this. We can't defend we can't keep clean sheets.
Whats the saying, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Setting up for the 0-0 and then only attacking once we are behind is tragic. The minute we attacked and Pereira was on they looked vulnerable, by then it was all too late.
Great to see him having a laugh pretending to take a throw in at the end.
And Glenn Hoddle saying glad to see Sam hasn't lost his sense of humour despite his teams troubles :-X
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I'd just like someone to get some morale back in the squad - we look utterly devoid of any kind of team spirit now. We need to start looking towards next season and which of this squad will still be here. If the rumours are true about Pierera and Diangana (and I really hope not), then the small chance of having both for next season has got even smaller.
For those of us in the dark about this (not on twitter?), what was rumoured to have happened?
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He's brought a much needed new midfield and striker, let's see how they get on before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
Bilić is gone, he isn't coming back and his record was only slightly better 0.54ppg to 0.5ppg so we'll continue having the discussion until Allardyce picks up another point.
And when will that be. :(
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It's way, way below average for the Premier League.
You're right though - we were awful to watch in the second half of the season; it wasn't good enough. However, doesn't this add weight the view that Billic did a decent job with an average squad? A squad whose early season exploits overinflated expectations. We got promoted without a decent striker, a centre midfield who have been shown to be useless in the Premier League and an inconsistent defence. I personally feel Brentford's squad was superior to ours last season.
As for Allardyce, I have not commented since the day he was appointed when I referenced that he was not the manager I wanted. This was for multiple reasons (his football, his attitude, his ethics) but gave him a chance. I had pretty low expectations for his reign in all honesty, and at the moment he is living up to those expectations.
I can agree with you on that fella.
I thought Allardyce was a shrewd appointment at the time and for the position we were in. It’s not worked so far and that’s clear.
But....I’ll give him time with the new signings to see the improvements.
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I think the problem is that things have got a bit tribal over Bilic and Allardyce. There are a lot of people who didn't want Bilic to go and get very defensive over any criticism of him. That had led to a bit of a "told you so" culture kicking in after every game and that then gets a reaction which just builds and builds.
I'll be glad when this season is over, as the place has been a bit like twittet of late, mainly over that subject.
Possibly, but it's more a case of using the previous manager to judge how the new manager is doing. He's had the same players to work with and we've clearly got worse. There was no logic in the appointment beyond "he's saved teams from relegation before".
My frustration lies in that it was glaringly obvious that employing someone like Sam, who plays a specific type of football, was never going to work with a squad set up like ours.
So, for me, we've gone from being not a very good team to one that's being embarrassed week in\week out. I remember under Pulis and the number of fans who said they'd rather see us go down playing nice football than stay up watching Pulis. Well, this is worse than Pulis, we're playing just as poor brand of football but also conceding goals for fun.
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Even though the PPG has been better under Allardyce albeit marginal.
Skewed by a smaller sample size. We have all seen the defending collapse. Those home results were a real low point. Today was a bit better which tells you how had things are. Is PPG better or is it now worse? Man Utd next as well. The drop in possession has really harmed us and Allardyce is still getting too much wrong with our team selections. O’Shea should have been at right back and Periera on the pitch.
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Allardyce's PPG I believe is now worse than Bilic's, though I think that shows that it's not really the best metric to judge unless there is a notable difference between the two. Which there isn't.
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Skewed by a smaller sample size. We have all seen the defending collapse. Those home results were a real low point. Today was a bit better which tells you how had things are. Is PPG better or is it now worse? Man Utd next as well. The drop in possession has really harmed us and Allardyce is still getting too much wrong with our team selections. O’Shea should have been at right back and Periera on the pitch.
That’s why we’re on a football forum and he is a time served manager.
He probably knows more than we do I’d say.
Neither of us are right or wrong in our opinions though.
It hasn’t worked so far, as I’ve stated but I’d like to see improvements with the new guys in and playing
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Allardyce's PPG I believe is now worse than Bilic's, though I think that shows that it's not really the best metric to judge unless there is a notable difference between the two. Which there isn't.
I think you've also got to look at how those points were collected. Losing 1-0 thanks to a really set of poor VAR decisions is much worse than losing 5-0 and never getting out of your own half.
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That’s why we’re on a football forum and he is a time served manager.
He probably knows more than we do I’d say.
Neither of us are right or wrong in our opinions though.
It hasn’t worked so far, as I’ve stated but I’d like to see improvements with the new guys in and playing
I can credit Allardyce today for dropping Livermore but then he leaves out Periera and plays Peltier, for every correct decision he’s making at least as many mistakes. If the Twitter stuff is true and he benched him after a row then he really is being idiotic.
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I'd like to hear Allardyce's reason for leaving out Pereira. Is creating chances and scoring goals not part of the tactical plan? Does he expect us to stop a creative side like Spurs from creating goal chances for 90 minutes? We always look better when we get out of our own half, but with Alardyce's tactics we're doomed to be stuck there.
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As boinging_along said comparing results and performances this season between the coaching staff is the only sensible metric we have to discuss the state of the team at the moment. I think your drive to replace managers have been an unmitigated disaster, appreciate we are all entitled to our opinions.
Yeah because the WBA board read what I post on here and base their decisions on it.
Slaven Bilić is nothing more than a charismatic but distinctly average football manager. Had he been removed after completing his one and only objective, we wouldn’t be where we are now.
The man is gone. What matters is the present and future of the club. Not the past.
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If Dowling & co have any self-respect and ambition, in addition to respect for the fans, they should admit to their mistake and sack him tomorrow. Things are spiralling out of control now if the rumours surrounding Pereira & Diangana are true. We're now back to a team of ridicule as we were under Pulis. Utterly sick of this now. At least Bilic gave our club back to us for a while.
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We can argue the toss about whether Bilic would have done better or whether Allardyce is doing better or whether Bilic should have gone but they're pointless arguments, Bilic is gone, Allardyce is the man in charge and he's been here long enough now for Bilic to be in the past and people to be judging Allardyce alone on his time here so any chance people can do that?
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I'd like to hear Allardyce's reason for leaving out Pereira. Is creating chances and scoring goals not part of the tactical plan? Does he expect us to stop a creative side like Spurs from creating goal chances for 90 minutes? We always look better when we get out of our own half, but with Alardyce's tactics we're doomed to be stuck there.
He was asked pre match on BT and he basically said it was because hes tried lots of different systems and none have worked so he was trying a new system today which needed the creative players to also do their defensive work. He said he was unfortunate to not play.....
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Yeah because the WBA board read what I post on here and base their decisions on it.
Slaven Bilić is nothing more than a charismatic but distinctly average football manager. Had he been removed after completing his one and only objective, we wouldn’t be where we are now.
The man is gone. What matters most right now is the present and future of our club. .
Not constantly revisiting the last managers tenure
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ALLARDYCE OUT.
The Astle Gates might be decorated in the next couple of days....
Add Dowling to that too.
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We can argue the toss about whether Bilic would have done better or whether Allardyce is doing better or whether Bilic should have gone but they're pointless arguments, Bilic is gone, Allardyce is the man in charge and he's been here long enough now for Bilic to be in the past and people to be judging Allardyce alone on his time here so any chance people can do that?
We are.
Allardyce has an appalling record and one that would see any manager under pressure to be sacked.
Trouble is, when someone says "these players just aren't good enough, you can't blame the manager", then it's natural to point out that a manager got better performances out of the same group.
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Yeah because the WBA board read what I post on here and base their decisions on it.
Slaven Bilić is nothing more than a charismatic but distinctly average football manager. Had he been removed after completing his one and only objective, we wouldn’t be where we are now.
The man is gone. What matters is the present and future of the club. Not the past.
The board choose to switch and it has failed. As the most prominent and earliest poster who wanted Bilic gone I can see why you’d rather not confront that. Turns out that no matter who the manager is average players can only take you so far. My disappointment with Allardyce isn’t that he is taking us down but the manner of it with all the heavy defeats and lack of competitiveness. All we can try and do now is rebuild some semblance of pride.
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Add Dowling to that too.
don't forget Lai
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don't forget Lai
Correct as ultimate responsibility starts at the top. We had to spend more to compete or reduce our expectations to doing a Norwich.
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Nothing will change until Lai is bought out.
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The points per game talking to champion which is better out of tribal loyalties is pathetic. It’s like choosing whether you prefer dry cough or a tickly cough. Fact of the matter is neither head coach has covered themselves in glory.
This Allardyce experiment is doomed. I could understand the reasons for his appointment but it has failed.
His whole approach consists of trying to get a side which cannot defend to defend and then he acts all surprised and inebriated off in his post match comments. The defensive personnel aren’t good enough and the more you batten down the hatches the less likely we are to win football matches.
If he went tonight I wouldn’t be disappointed. He’s going to walk on us sooner rather than later to preserve his reputation
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People we need to get rid of in order
1) Lai
2) Dowling
3) Manager
People we will get rid of in order
1) Manager
2) Dowling
3) Lai (If we are lucky)
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Allardyce is a short term experiment which has backfired spectacularly in my opinion. We need to be looking long term, relegation or not!
I was disappointed with his appointment, although prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
It's obvious now it's not working, pulisesque tactics and a long throw in is all he offers. Outdated in today's football environment - thanks but goodbye!
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We are.
Allardyce has an appalling record and one that would see any manager under pressure to be sacked.
Trouble is, when someone says "these players just aren't good enough, you can't blame the manager", then it's natural to point out that a manager got better performances out of the same group.
Well how about stick to Allardyce or do you want to go back in time all the while comparing who did what or why they did it.
The clue is in the title of the topic, its says Sam Allardyce. He's been here long enough now, also now has 5 players in, some players Bilic brought in have now gone so time to judge Allardyce alone.
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People we need to get rid of in order
1) Lai
2) Dowling
3) Manager
People we will get rid of in order
1) Manager
2) Dowling
3) Lai (If we are lucky)
That's because we can't get rid of Lai unless we get a buyer and we won't get a buyer to pay his price. That means the other 2 have to go to give us a chance of being better next year. Trouble is, if we succeed next year, Lai still won't have enough money to be competitive so he won't get a buyer.
Only way he goes is if he takes a loss.
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That's because we can't get rid of Lai unless we get a buyer and we won't get a buyer to pay his price. That means the other 2 have to go to give us a chance of being better next year. Trouble is, if we succeed next year, Lai still won't have enough money to be competitive so he won't get a buyer.
Only way he goes is if he takes a loss.
I know mate what im saying is we are screwed no matter who we change while Lai is here.
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The points per game talking to champion which is better out of tribal loyalties is pathetic. It’s like choosing whether you prefer dry cough or a tickly cough. Fact of the matter is neither head coach has covered themselves in glory.
This Allardyce experiment is doomed. I could understand the reasons for his appointment but it has failed.
His whole approach consists of trying to get a side which cannot defend to defend and then he acts all surprised and inebriated off in his post match comments. The defensive personnel aren’t good enough and the more you batten down the hatches the less likely we are to win football matches.
If he went tonight I wouldn’t be disappointed. He’s going to walk on us sooner rather than later to preserve his reputation
Exactly how I feel right now about this whole situation
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Okay Allardyce is stand alone rubbish, in his own right rubbish, without reference to any other rubbish in the universe of rubbish is rubbish and like all rubbish should get in the bin.
That is an unprejudiced evaluation of his time here (you should see prejudiced one)
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Well how about stick to Allardyce or do you want to go back in time all the while comparing who did what or why they did it.
The clue is in the title of the topic, its says Sam Allardyce. He's been here long enough now, also now has 5 players in, some players Bilic brought in have now gone so time to judge Allardyce alone.
We can discuss managers in the past if they've worked with the same group of players, otherwise there's not much of a comparison that can be made I don't think?
If we want to judge Sam on his own then here's his record...
PPG: 0.5
Goals For: 0.8
Goals Against: 2.8
Shots For: 5.6
Shots Against: 16.5
Possession: 31%
Pass Success: 67%
Relegation form.
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We can discuss managers in the past if they've worked with the same group of players, otherwise there's not much of a comparison that can be made I don't think?
If we want to judge Sam on his own then here's his record...
PPG: 0.5
Goals For: 0.8
Goals Against: 2.8
Shots For: 5.6
Shots Against: 16.5
Possession: 31%
Pass Success: 67%
Relegation form.
Great, Allardyce topic, Allardyce stats
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Please get this disease out of our club asap. Lets appoint a new manager in the next month or so and give them a chance to evaluate the players and set out their ideas to give us a chance next season, also they could identify signings in advance.
What the board will most likely do is stick with Allardyce until the summer and then appoint a new manager at the end of August causing us to be playing catchup straight away.
You might not want to admit it but our club is a joke at this moment in time.
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Passing the buck again in post match interview players to blame not me.
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I think he really must only have a couple of games maximum left for things to turn round, a heavy defeat next week and he could be gone, possibly he may walk because as a proud man with his relegation survival record but surely sometimes you have to realise things just arent working (i believe Pardew offered his resignation when he realised)
I think Big Sam is trying his best but where as previously he has adapted a style to suit the players, with us i think he is trying to adapt the players to a style, with him you know its going to be cautious / pragmatic but it just isnt clicking for us.
Allardyce has always been quite a bolshy arrogant manager, a chip on shoulder and love him it hate him, he had a presence and it got results but he doesnt seem like that with us, he almost seems passive and like he has lost that bit of edge he had.
There are some key things he keeps doing which i dont understand, we are rubbish at the back yet we set up defensive, if we were good at it i wouldnt like it but i would understand it, yet after this many games its apparent we dont have the players that can play that way yet persist.
We do play direct a lot, again thats expected under Big Sam and again if you are good at it so be it, i know his theory is get the ball forward, win the knockdowns and play football in the final third but we dont have the players.
To play that way you need quick wide players who get the full backs turning, we dont have those players, amount of times today spurs full backs just got in between Snodgrass, Phillips or Grant and the ball knowing they didnt have the pace to get round them.
It was hard to judge Maitland-Niles as we were too defensive and didnt really look to play through him, hopefully a weeks training with Yosulu and can add a bit of variety amd try and play football and go direct, at least give the opposition something to think about.
As for Pereira, he has to play, when you leave your best player out, unless you get a good result and its looks a genius move (ie - liverpool) which is very rare, you have to take the flak when it doesnt work. I thought Diange looked a lot sharper today but didnt really have any attack minded suppprt round him, Pereira would of done that.
Think Big Sam really is in the last chance saloon now, lets hope a weeks training with all the new boys means he starts to change his ways.
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Please get this disease out of our club asap. Lets appoint a new manager in the next month or so and give them a chance to evaluate the players and set out their ideas to give us a chance next season, also they could identify signings in advance.
What the board will most likely do is stick with Allardyce until the summer and then appoint a new manager at the end of August causing us to be playing catchup straight away.
You might not want to admit it but our club is a joke at this moment in time.
Exactly this.
Then when the new manager hasnt got us in the top 2 by Christmas they will replace with someone else again and the short term vision continues...
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The board choose to switch and it has failed. As the most prominent and earliest poster who wanted Bilic gone I can see why you’d rather not confront that. Turns out that no matter who the manager is average players can only take you so far. My disappointment with Allardyce isn’t that he is taking us down but the manner of it with all the heavy defeats and lack of competitiveness. All we can try and do now is rebuild some semblance of pride.
The only thing that’s remotely difficult for me to confront is why the board left it too late in removing Bilić. In fairness to Big Sam or whoever else it may have been, they should have had the summer to prepare for this campaign. If Bilić was under a 12 month contract and things had still played out the same, there would have been much more reluctance from the club in allowing him to lead us in the Premier League this season.
I’ll reserve my judgement on Big Sam until after Crystal Palace away (if he lasts until then). Perhaps our pride will be on the way to being restored by then. Perhaps not. But I’ll wait until then because any appointment made by the club will be for the short-term given the circumstances around the club.
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Cue music 'Don't get fooled again' [The Who]
There is no way Allardyce was ever going to keep us up. Doubt if he ever wanted or intended to try. Pick up the addition to the retirement fund and get your own back on a club that rightly got rid of you once before.
Nice one Sammy boy. Ok you have been bought a few players you might prefer to be judged on but most of those will only be here till the end of the season - you won't, I hope, therefore they do not really matter in the greater scheme - we will not stay up under you. You are devoid of ideas and ability to get good players to play for you except under threat. Please do the decent thing for once in your life - just go
Thank you Lai and your management mob so much for appointing Allardyce, you bunch of brainless morons. Most West Brom supporters with any idea of history, and some football knowledge/experience, had and strongly expressed their concerns when he was first mooted as our next head coach. They have been proven to be correct. Now get rid and start planning for the future - A future probably two divisions below where we were when you threw what little money we had away at him, but with even less talent in the team. A broken team lacking confidence and direction. A team no decent young players will want to come to even if we could afford them. It is going to be a long hard journey back to where we were when we got promoted, and it probably will not happen in my lifetime, not with a team able to compete anyway. By team I mean ownership, management, coaching, medical, scouting and development etc not just the on field players, all of whom have got worse under your tenancy
We did not have much to start with but the combination of Lai and co plus Allardyce has destroyed what little we did have and is presently taking us further back into the darkness. Somebody please strike a match and let us see where the next step might be taking us before we fall beyond any possibility of return.
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Passing the buck again in post match interview players to blame not me.
It's like groundhog day watching his interviews
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Passing the buck again in post match interview players to blame not me.
He'd have taken the accolades well enough if we'd won.
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The only thing that’s remotely difficult for me to confront is why the board left it too late in removing Bilić. In fairness to Big Sam or whoever else it may have been, they should have had the summer to prepare for this campaign. If Bilić was under a 12 month contract and things had still played out the same, there would have been much more reluctance from the club in allowing him to lead us in the Premier League this season.
We were 3 points off safety when Allardyce was appointed with 25 games left. Big Sam has not failed due to a lack of time.
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We were 3 points off safety when Allardyce was appointed with 25 games left. Big Sam has not failed due to a lack of time.
Indeed, Sam is averaging 0.5 pts per game, nowhere near enough to stay up.
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https://twitter.com/FootballJOE/status/1358416980097794049?s=19
I hope he launched it towards the box - practice what you preach!
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We were 3 points off safety when Allardyce was appointed with 25 games left. Big Sam has not failed due to a lack of time.
Bilić shouldn’t have even been in charge after QPR at home. That’s my point!!
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My prediction gone after Man U then Mozza takes the team for the remainder of the season
Please don't even go there.
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Even though the PPG has been better under Allardyce albeit marginal.
Wotz Price Per Gallon got to do with it? ;)
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Bilić shouldn’t have even been in charge after QPR at home. That’s my point!!
Yet earlier today you posted â€what matters is the present and future of the club. Not the pastâ€.
Allardyce has been a disaster so far but I wouldn’t seek to replace him at this stage, the time to plan strategically on our future is the summer.
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Yet earlier today you posted â€what matters is the present and future of the club. Not the pastâ€.
Allardyce has been a disaster so far but I wouldn’t seek to replace him at this stage, the time to plan strategically on our future is the summer.
Problem with that is, we are so bloody slow at planning, we'd probably get a manager a week before the season started.
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Look a shambles under his tenure.
Not expecting miracles but the minimum was to improve us overall rather than make us a great deal worse.
Get rid now and have Morrison in charge until the end of season then immediately appoint our preferred coach for the Championship.
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Look a shambles under his tenure.
Not expecting miracles but the minimum was to improve us overall rather than make us a great deal worse.
Get rid now and have Morrison in charge until the end of season then immediately appoint our preferred coach for the Championship.
I would hope Morrison would say no in that scenario. It would be a poisoned chalice that would see him depart come the end of the season.
He needs to be given time to learn his trade as a coach.
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I watched Mike Bassett England Manager the other night.
Todays SA’s post match comments regarding formations were pure Bassett.
Lets hope no one on our board or our owner watch it, they would probably end up giving Ricky Tomlinson a call....
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He was asked pre match on BT and he basically said it was because hes tried lots of different systems and none have worked so he was trying a new system today which needed the creative players to also do their defensive work. He said he was unfortunate to not play.....
This is bizarre. Pereira is not only our most creative player, free kick taker, penalty taker, he's also our top scorer. Not saying Pereira has alot of defensive qualities, but he is almost the only player we have who is guarenteed to have a part in goals scored. To win football matches you need to score goals. The best we could have got today was a 0-0, but given the amount of chances Spurs created, that was only a very slim chance.
He's also used our second forward position (Grant) on a player who creates no more danger than Ken Zohore. Diagne looks sharp around the box but his service was almost non-existant because the tactics didn't allow us to build any moves through the midfield. We also had 2 wing backs who offered virtually nothing going forward.
We'll have to see if AMN and Okay can give us more of a foothold in midfield, but I'm not holding my breath with SA in charge. There were periods of games this season where we have controlled midfield, (Newcstle away, Brighton away, Man U away, Spurs home) and looked on top in the game. Those are distant memories now.
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One of his after match comments was " We've got to start winning games, and we won't do that by keeping on losing". ******* unbelievable.
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This is bizarre. Pereira is not only our most creative player, free kick taker, penalty taker, he's also our top scorer. Not saying Pereira has alot of defensive qualities, but he is almost the only player we have who is guarenteed to have a part in goals scored. To win football matches you need to score goals. The best we could have got today was a 0-0, but given the amount of chances Spurs created, that was only a very slim chance.
He's also used our second forward position (Grant) on a player who creates no more danger than Ken Zohore. Diagne looks sharp around the box but his service was almost non-existant because the tactics didn't allow us to build any moves through the midfield. We also had 2 wing backs who offered virtually nothing going forward.
We'll have to see if AMN and Okay can give us more of a foothold in midfield, but I'm not holding my breath with SA in charge. There were periods of games this season where we have controlled midfield, (Newcstle away, Brighton away, Man U away, Spurs home) and looked on top in the game. Those are distant memories now.
Agreed.
I would also argue we were on top at 1-1 against palace too
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I keep refreshing all social media and this forum in the hope that he’s gone.
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I keep refreshing all social media and this forum in the hope that he’s gone.
I wouldn't bother. He's not going anywhere.
He's got his 4 signings. 15 game season starts next week needs around 26 points.
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I keep refreshing all social media and this forum in the hope that he’s gone.
Yow med me loff mate.........bloody well done. ;D
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I keep refreshing all social media and this forum in the hope that he’s gone.
Glad I'm not the only one doing that!
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We don't seem to aim for a win.
A sheep in wolf's clothing?
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I have not been Allardyce out as I hate the impatience we see in modern football. I don't really want to compare other managers as Slav is long gone.
A few things after today. After watching football for over 30 years when a managers post match comments see illogical it's time to worry. To talk about needing to score, being on the front foot more and Diagne will score if he gets chances and then leave out your best player who is the only one likely to supply Diagne is a joke. How does Pereira feel and even the rest of the squad? Play well and you will get dropped....
He even said if Diagne scores those 2 it makes a difference, he didn't score though. Sam, if Harry Kane scores those first 2 chances we are 2 down in 15 minutes....
There is an interesting anecdote from Matt LeTissier on his best ever form which came under Alan Ball. Southampton were rubbish and on course to be relegated. Apparently Ball gathered all the Southampton players in a circle and got LeTissier in the middle. He said "this is your best player and he is your best chance of staying up. Whenever you can the ball to him!" Our policy is to drop our best player :(
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We don't seem to aim for a win.
A sheep in wolf's clothing?
It's a sheep in sheep's clothing mate. A very timid, cowardly little sheep
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There's always another deadline further away.
First it was, "he needs a couple of weeks with the players". Then, "he needs the first 6 matches", now it's, "he's had to get his signings in".
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One of his after match comments was " We've got to start winning games, and we won't do that by keeping on losing". ******* unbelievable.
Was he possessed by Michael Owen!?
The tide is turning on him. He’s nearly had as many games as the previous manager and the points are what, 7 Bilic 4 Allardyce? 3 games to go and maybe Allardyce will prove to be better.
However this whole Bilic and Allardyce argument needs to be put to bed. What is looking extremely likely is that neither have done a good enough job. The only way Allardyce gets survival form is winning the next 3 games which looks very very unlikely and even then - we need more than that, we need top 6 form.
I’m losing faith and the time set to give Allardyce a chance is nearly up.
He’s still clinging on though but leaving Pereira out today was a huge gaff. Add to that Sawyers and Peltier starting and it’s a bad day for SA.
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There's always another deadline further away.
First it was, "he needs a couple of weeks with the players". Then, "he needs the first 6 matches", now it's, "he's had to get his signings in".
That's the nature of time. It flows forward. No chance the board will get rid of him, and nor should they. There is no plan C.
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Having just read his comments in the express and star it looks like he is basically admitting that he’s tried everything and nothing has worked.
But all he talks about is formation, not approach. Maybe if he was to think beyond the lump out to furlong, or the long ball and actually encourage the team to try and keep possession and play through the midfield and out wide he might stand a better chance.
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Just saw a post on Twitter saying he took over when we were 3 points from safety. Now 11.
However you measure his impact that’s the stat that’s important. He was recruited to try and fix a 3 point deficit and it’s gone the wrong way badly. Indefensible.
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That's the nature of time. It flows forward. No chance the board will get rid of him, and nor should they. There is no plan C.
They also call it "moving the goal posts".
It's a bit damning to say the club has no Plan C. What if Sam quit tomorrow?
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It looks to me as though Sam doesn’t care if we stay up or go down, and for that reason he should go.
Fulham and Sheffield results decided our fate, but why be so negative today?
Hoping on the worst PL defence of all time to keep a clean sheet is idiotic.
At least try and have a go and lose rather than park the bus and still lose.
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Alladyce wont last until March unless he gets 4- 6 points out of man utd Burnley and Brighton
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It looks to me as though Sam doesn’t care if we stay up or go down, and for that reason he should go.
Fulham and Sheffield results decided our fate, but why be so negative today?
Hoping on the worst PL defence of all time to keep a clean sheet is idiotic.
At least try and have a go and lose rather than park the bus and still lose.
Exactly. At this point it should be about enjoying the games. I mean what’s the point of being promoted and us being excited about that if we can’t enjoy the stay in the Premier League at all? We still have 40% of the season remaining, we can still conjure up moments of enjoyment. And those moments are most likely to come from our most talented players. (Pereira, Diagne, Gallagher, AMN, maybe Okay) so they should play. Defensive shape be dammed quite frankly, we are going to concede anyway.
Of course I don’t think Sam will be thinking like that at all. He will be looking to grind out results to make his own record look okay.
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He's getting into Pardew territory now. Just glad he can't organise a 'coaching' trip to Spain :-X
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10 games played under him in the league and 28 goals conceded. His influence defensively is clearly there for all to see. Fantastic numbers!
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That's the nature of time. It flows forward. No chance the board will get rid of him, and nor should they. There is no plan C.
There wasn't a plan A or B either.
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There wasn't a plan A or B either.
What? Context... plan A was Bilić, plan B is Allardyce...
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What? Context... plan A was Bilić, plan B is Allardyce...
Plan C ought to be stay as we are until we’re officially relegated. Another sacking before then isn’t going to make much difference.
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"We've got to start winning games and we won't do that by keeping on losing." - Sam Allardyce today
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We finally have a decent set of players, but with a manager who doesn't know how to use them.
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Plan C ought to be stay as we are until we’re officially relegated. Another sacking before then isn’t going to make much difference.
Points wise maybe not, but morale wise? We need to have an eye on next season - in an ideal world we'd build the team around Pierera, Diangana, etc.
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Just saw a post on Twitter saying he took over when we were 3 points from safety. Now 11.
However you measure his impact that’s the stat that’s important. He was recruited to try and fix a 3 point deficit and it’s gone the wrong way badly. Indefensible.
10 games played under him in the league and 28 goals conceded. His influence defensively is clearly there for all to see. Fantastic numbers!
Those stats speak for themselves and for me are all I need to know. I'm convinced that without him at the helm our goal deficit will not get worse. This man is a morale sapper and that's why he needs to go and now.
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Points wise maybe not, but morale wise? We need to have an eye on next season - in an ideal world we'd build the team around Pierera, Diangana, etc.
To be fair, I can see the argument.
As soon as we get the R, the future is decided & we can plan for it, hopefully from the owner down.
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Plan C ought to be stay as we are until we’re officially relegated. Another sacking before then isn’t going to make much difference.
Wrong. We’ve seen that finishing our season with a whimper can carry into the following season. See Pulis for that and last season too. We need to get rid and take the negativity out the side, importantly, make the right appointment, and then start next season afresh.
I’d sack Sam tomorrow if I had the chance.
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Wrong. We’ve seen that finishing our season with a whimper can carry into the following season. See Pulis for that and last season too. We need to get rid and take the negativity out the side, importantly, make the right appointment, and then start next season afresh.
I’d sack Sam tomorrow if I had the chance.
he needs to go now only here for the pay check his incompetent bosses gave him.
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Ok. Simple question for all the Allardyce supporters on here ?
Is any one of you going to answer this question ? Do you defend his non-selection of by far our best and most talented player today ?
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Ok. Simple question for all the Allardyce supporters on here ?
Is any one of you going to answer this question ? Do you defend his non-selection of by far our best and most talented player today ?
No. Shocking decision and said it at the time. In his ten minutes on the pitch Pereira showed why he should always start.
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Theres not much to debate anymore other than whether to keep him next season or not. I'd say no way and rebuild with someone with fresh ideas .
We look so very poor under him, desperate really. I cant get my head on around how little fight or gameplan we're showng but SA just doesn't look bothered so thats probably why.
At least hes made a few bob out of us for his retirement fund like Pardew did.
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He won't be going anywhere soon and unless we have new owners he will be here next season.
How can anyone defend the decision to drop Periera and bring back Sawyers, unbelievable.
On a plus note, and we could do with some, the new player did ok and may make a difference although its too late this season.
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He won't be going anywhere soon and unless we have new owners he will be here next season.
How can anyone defend the decision to drop Periera and bring back Sawyers, unbelievable.
On a plus note, and we could do with some, the new player did ok and may make a difference although its too late this season.
I hope I’m wrong if Allardyce does stay, but I can’t see Pereira being here next season if it is the case.
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I hope I’m wrong if Allardyce does stay, but I can’t see Pereira being here next season if it is the case.
No he won't, we'll go back to a less expansive style, but at least Allardyce will have players he can work with.
The results will be better, but the style won't suit most of the fans.
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No he won't, we'll go back to a less expansive style, but at least Allardyce will have players he can work with.
Less expansive than sitting on our 18 yard line hoping for a 0-0?
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My prediction gone after Man U then Mozza takes the team for the remainder of the season
Please don't even go there.
I can see history repeating itself, just JM instead of DM.
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Less expansive than sitting on our 18 yard line hoping for a 0-0?
Not sure we did that but......................
Bilic brought in players to play an expansive footballing style.
If SA gets the gig permanently his reputation is a more pragmatic style, so it's likely he'll want Pirera, Diangana etc sold to make room for players that fit his style,
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Wrong. We’ve seen that finishing our season with a whimper can carry into the following season. See Pulis for that and last season too. We need to get rid and take the negativity out the side, importantly, make the right appointment, and then start next season afresh.
I’d sack Sam tomorrow if I had the chance.
Yeah I get what you’re saying Frazzle. Definitely agree Pulis should have gone in the summer of 2017 and Bilić in the summer of 2020. My only concern with bringing in someone else before this season finishes is they also start their tenure losing week-in, week-out too. We’re banking on them making all the right changes in the summer and restarting with a winning streak. Could be risky.
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Yeah I get what you’re saying Frazzle. Definitely agree Pulis should have gone in the summer of 2017 and Bilić in the summer of 2020. My only concern with bringing in someone else before this season finishes is they also start their tenure losing week-in, week-out too. We’re banking on them making all the right changes in the summer and restarting with a winning streak. Could be risky.
Isn't the alternative that we keep plodding along, losing, seeing moral get worse and worse, and then we have less time in the summer to recruit the manager, for him to look over the squad and make the right changes?
For me, ideally we'd get the required manager in asap and write off this season but at least look towards next season from now. If not, at least try and get the morale of the team up and see if we can salvage some positives. If there's any chance we can start next season with Pierera and Diangana we should try and take it.
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To be honest I would just get relegation out of the way with Allardyce and get the new coach in for the last few games to run the rule over the squad. We are going not going to be relegated for another 10 games and it will be horrible and we might as well protect the new guy from the toxicity.
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To be honest I would just get relegation out of the way with Allardyce and get the new coach in for the last few games to run the rule over the squad. We are going not going to be relegated for another 10 games and it will be horrible and we might as well protect the new guy from the toxicity.
I completely understand that line of thought, but Big Dave took over in a similar situation and managed to get a few results, improve morale, and do some of the groundwork for the next season.
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Big Sam on MOD2 ..."at least we scored 2 goals".......OMG :D :D
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Big Sam on MOD2 ..."at least we scored 2 goals".......OMG :D :D
He’s just trolling the fanbase now. Doesn’t care at all :(
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To be honest I would just get relegation out of the way with Allardyce and get the new coach in for the last few games to run the rule over the squad. We are going not going to be relegated for another 10 games and it will be horrible and we might as well protect the new guy from the toxicity.
I’m with you Standaman 👍🏻
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Big and little Sam have surely only been brought in until the end of the season (unless, of course they achieved the virtual impossible and saved us from the drop) whereby they will continue to next season. Big Sam, in particular, is a well known as a shrewd financial dealer and will no doubt have a pay off written into his fat contract. That being the case, and when the point of no return has been reached I hope that the two Sams are sent on their way and a new man (duo) is given time to prepare for next season. Hopefully that process is already under way. Knowing Albion however I somehow doubt it!
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I hope Allardyce gets driven into the ground with bad results. Losing the next 5 in a row will do me nicely. I can then actually watch my team play again once he's gone.....
Either sacking or resignation.
Can you imagine the outcry if Biic had dropped Pereira at any stage?
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I hope Allardyce gets driven into the ground with bad results. Losing the next 5 in a row will do me nicely. I can then actually watch my team play again once he's gone.....
Either sacking or resignation.
Can you imagine the outcry if Biic had dropped Pereira at any stage?
You mean like at Wigan away then we lost our form for a while ?
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There is break clause in contract if we are relagated which can be used by either side, Dowling would be nuts not to use it.
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I hope Allardyce gets driven into the ground with bad results. Losing the next 5 in a row will do me nicely. I can then actually watch my team play again once he's gone.....
Either sacking or resignation.
Can you imagine the outcry if Biic had dropped Pereira at any stage?
I can't believe any true Albion fan would want us to lose 1 game let alone 5 under any circumstances. Unbelievable!
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I can't believe any true Albion fan would want us to lose 1 game let alone 5 under any circumstances. Unbelievable!
I agree - the attitude beggars belief from some.
St Slaven has gone, it was fun while it lasted but we all need to move on and get behind BS.
There is no evidence available that SB would have had us in a superior position.
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I agree - the attitude beggars belief from some.
St Slaven has gone, it was fun while it lasted but we all need to move on and get behind BS.
There is no evidence available that SB would have had us in a superior position.
Agreed, it's a poor,poor squad and i think the best managers in the world would struggle with this lot, but i never ever want the Albion to lose no matter what.
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No. Shocking decision and said it at the time. In his ten minutes on the pitch Pereira showed why he should always start.
A decision that didn’t work but he wanted more in defence - I was more amazed that sawyers played instead of him - I won’t defend him for that
Pereira stormed out of a pre match meeting (when told he was dropped)and diangana refusing to play for SA is what I heard, from a decent source.
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The question is ' can Sam save us?' The answer is No.
What we should be doing now is making sensible preparations for life in the Championship next year.
That includes starting with recruiting a manager that will take us forward not back into the dark ages.
That gives a new manager 6 months or so to run the rule over the current players, see who's worth keeping and who wants to stay, and also identify what he needs in his side for next year.
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The question is ' can Sam save us?' The answer is No.
What we should be doing now is making sensible preparations for life in the Championship next year.
That includes starting with recruiting a manager that will take us forward not back into the dark ages.
That gives a new manager 6 months or so to run the rule over the current players, see who's worth keeping and who wants to stay, and also identify what he needs in his side for next year.
This is the most sensible post i have seen on here in weeks! Bang on.
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It's not going to happen. As I stated yesterday, it's now a 15 match season. Target 26 points. If we did lose the next 5, as inexplicably one poster says they would like to happen then there may be a case for moving to a preparation strategy.
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The handbrake is off the car, the car is heading toward the cliff edge as an observer of the car it does not make any difference as to whether I cheer or boo. Newton's first law is not subject to wishful thinking.
This will run it's course but nobody including Allardyce intends for him to be managing us in the Championship. GREGMT wants it to be over quickly and might be seen as disloyal I can retain my loyalty safe in the knowledge that the difference between the worst and best case scenario is 3 miserable Allardyce infested weeks.
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It's not going to happen. As I stated yesterday, it's now a 15 match season. Target 26 points. If we did lose the next 5, as inexplicably one poster says they would like to happen then there may be a case for moving to a preparation strategy.
If we lose the next 5 matches, there's no "may" about it. Your 15 match, 26 points comment is pie in the sky, so I think there is a good case for pulling the trigger now. What I do agree with you about though is that it isn't going to happen imminently.
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The question is ' can Sam save us?' The answer is No.
What we should be doing now is making sensible preparations for life in the Championship next year.
That includes starting with recruiting a manager that will take us forward not back into the dark ages.
That gives a new manager 6 months or so to run the rule over the current players, see who's worth keeping and who wants to stay, and also identify what he needs in his side for next year.
I think your question can be opened up to 'can anyone save us' and the answer is the same.
Standaman refers to the handbrake being off the car. I think you will find that someone cut the handbrake cable a couple of years ago when he departed.
I do agree with your post though - back to basics, hopefully with a plan/strategy longer that 6 months..
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A decision that didn’t work but he wanted more in defence - I was more amazed that sawyers played instead of him - I won’t defend him for that
Pereira stormed out of a pre match meeting (when told he was dropped)and diangana refusing to play for SA is what I heard, from a decent source.
This is exactly the problem with Allardyce. He has managed to annoy Diangana to the extent he doesn't want to play for us and seemingly is trying to manipulate and push around Pereira.
What was the point of playing for a draw at Tottenham exactly? Every match we must try and win, even if we fall short with a lack of quality.
I think Allardyce is must comfortable with players who lack talent, but they are good blokes who'll comply with his orders and get stuck in. So the likes of Livermore, Peltier, Grant are right down his street.
By falling out with Pereira and Diangana how does that benefit WBA and it's supporters? As I said earlier, if it takes losing the next 5 games for Allardyce to leave, I'll happily take it. This is an unhappy and forced marriage already.
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I honestly think Allardyce is resigned to having the 1st relegation on his CV and has pretty much thrown the towel in. He does not have an M.O that works with this group of players so, his blaming of the players is his way of trying to protect his ego and retain what bit of his reputation he can.
We will go down, there is no doubt in my mind about that, nor is there too much regret. Sam will have been paid handsomely and he will get another job, the same as we will get another manager.
We won't "do a Sunderland" and will be competitive next season. We just need to ride out the next couple of months, however horrific they may be, and look forward to a better year ahead.
No point sacking Sam, we have to pay him, so may as well leave him where he is and await the inevitable.
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We are in such a dire situation. Clearly the future is not Allardyce but one thing is a must and that is to close the season with some pride and some sort of momentum.
Having listened to the Liquidator this morning the point was made that the next manager may not want to join now as they effectively add relegation to their cv so may prefer to come in during the summer. That does make sense.
So that leaves us with two options, stick with Sam or sack him and move to a temporary solution. I accept that neither are great options but perhaps if we look back at the same point when we sacked Pardew, perhaps one thing we can learned from that is that had we sacked Pardew maybe one or two games earlier it may have been enough to keep us up.
I don’t think we should underestimate how important it was to have the feel good factor back in our club under Moore in those final weeks. Remember that pic when he won manager of the month surrounded by all the players and staff? We are a million miles away from that at the moment and we need to get back to that.
So I would sack Allardyce. It genuinely can’t get worse than it is and it could possibly get better if the squad comes together.
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If we lose the next 5 matches, there's no "may" about it. Your 15 match, 26 points comment is pie in the sky, so I think there is a good case for pulling the trigger now. What I do agree with you about though is that it isn't going to happen imminently.
That's the reality of the situation. Whether we can achieve it is the part that is up for discussion.
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When he was appointed, the first thing i thought was he should be able to make us more solid. How wrong was i? Its the complete opposite. The defenders are not good enough to defend so you should take the pressure off your defenders and play with the ball.
We get the ball, hoof it up front waiting for the next attack. Its ridiculous, seasons over, just thank god the fans arent there to watch the shambles.
I think its time for him to go, the club took the gamble in appointing him, it didnt work, now get rid. Get someone within the club to take the reigns up until the end of the season, with the board taking 3-4 months decided what manager they want next season, then appoint early and go again.
The decisions this club makes are a joke, Bilic was Pulis, Sam is Pardew, so is Mozza, Darren Moore? Making the same mistakes year after year is incredible. Just like on the pitch, mistake after mistake. I've had enough for this season.
Get him out of the club now, hes hindering us not helping us!
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That's the reality of the situation. Whether we can achieve it is the part that is up for discussion.
Is it? Not sure there's any debate to be had me old cocker.
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That's the reality of the situation. Whether we can achieve it is the part that is up for discussion.
I understand that. It was the achievable bit of it I was saying was pie in the sky. I very much doubt that there is anyone on here who still gives us a prayer of staying up, so the "up for discussion" comment is pretty much redundant
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When he was appointed, the first thing i thought was he should be able to make us more solid. How wrong was i? Its the complete opposite. The defenders are not good enough to defend so you should take the pressure off your defenders and play with the ball.
We get the ball, hoof it up front waiting for the next attack. Its ridiculous, seasons over, just thank god the fans arent there to watch the shambles.
I think its time for him to go, the club took the gamble in appointing him, it didnt work, now get rid. Get someone within the club to take the reigns up until the end of the season, with the board taking 3-4 months decided what manager they want next season, then appoint early and go again.
The decisions this club makes are a joke, Bilic was Pulis, Sam is Pardew, so is Mozza, Darren Moore? Making the same mistakes year after year is incredible. Just like on the pitch, mistake after mistake. I've had enough for this season.
Get him out of the club now, hes hindering us not helping us!
Can't quite get my head around that comparison. :o
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That's the reality of the situation. Whether we can achieve it is the part that is up for discussion.
Unfortunately there is nothing, absolutely nowt to suggest we can even improve slightly, let alone enough to stay up but, that changes nothing really, I will go into every game wanting to win whilst fully expecting to lose. I have found, however, a sort of zen state, whereby I'm not angry or frustrated I just try and accept it and move on.
This time next year we could be back in a sold out Hawthorns, looking forward to being crowned Champions and that's far better than being beat up every week whilst being belittled by overpaid, under-educated pundits whilst trying to hang on to 17th, like a dumped teenager who can't take a hint!
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This is exactly the problem with Allardyce. He has managed to annoy Diangana to the extent he doesn't want to play for us and seemingly is trying to manipulate and push around Pereira.
What was the point of playing for a draw at Tottenham exactly? Every match we must try and win, even if we fall short with a lack of quality.
I think Allardyce is must comfortable with players who lack talent, but they are good blokes who'll comply with his orders and get stuck in. So the likes of Livermore, Peltier, Grant are right down his street.
By falling out with Pereira and Diangana how does that benefit WBA and it's supporters? As I said earlier, if it takes losing the next 5 games for Allardyce to leave, I'll happily take it. This is an unhappy and forced marriage already.
And that is nothing but pure speculation. I don’t think we should be using these ‘rumours’ as a stick to beat SA with until it’s confirmed this is what has happened.
But anything to beat him with seems to be the order of the day
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This is exactly the problem with Allardyce. He has managed to annoy Diangana to the extent he doesn't want to play for us and seemingly is trying to manipulate and push around Pereira.
What was the point of playing for a draw at Tottenham exactly? Every match we must try and win, even if we fall short with a lack of quality.
I think Allardyce is must comfortable with players who lack talent, but they are good blokes who'll comply with his orders and get stuck in. So the likes of Livermore, Peltier, Grant are right down his street.
By falling out with Pereira and Diangana how does that benefit WBA and it's supporters? As I said earlier, if it takes losing the next 5 games for Allardyce to leave, I'll happily take it. This is an unhappy and forced marriage already.
Can you also name 1 side he has managed where flair or talented players have been marginalised.
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I understand that. It was the achievable bit of it I was saying was pie in the sky. I very much doubt that there is anyone on here who still gives us a prayer of staying up, so the "up for discussion" comment is pretty much redundant
Absolute scenes when we beat Yanited next week ;)
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my guess is if supporters were in the stadium he would be gone by now
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Solano at Newcastle. Got sidelined as Sam wanted to concentrate on long throws and long balls. Was very vocal about it. Vlasic at Everton, Santa Cruz at Blackburn and Farralley at Bolton too.
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my guess is if supporters were in the stadium he would be gone by now
The thing is if he goes who do you replace him with? Next seasons manager wouldnt want the job yet. Not only does he get a relegation on his CV but a string of poor performances and results probably, at best, splits the fans before next season even starts. You could appoint a caretaker till the end of the season.
Personally, I'd stick with Allardyce for now. Bring in a new man for the last half a dozen games or so when everyone has accepted our fate and give him that bit of time to work out what he needs for next season.
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Just to remind you all that posting suggestions for Allardyce's replacement, while he is still in post, is against forum rules and posts will be deleted.
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Absolute scenes when we beat Yanited next week ;)
Yes mate, just like the scenes yesterday when we beat Tottenham ;)
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Can you also name 1 side he has managed where flair or talented players have been marginalised.
West Bromwich Albion
And that's all that matters. I've tried to get behind him, but the bloke has lost the plot in the last 2 fixtures:
1) Sheff Utd: picking Livermore instead of Gallagher. Playing negative, defensive football with the luxury of a 0-1 lead. Where is Diangana?
2) Tottenham: leaving Pereira & Robinson on the bench. Making no attempt at all to win the match and settling for a drab 0-0. Where is Diangana?
I and many others no longer want Allardyce.
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And that is nothing but pure speculation. I don’t think we should be using these ‘rumours’ as a stick to beat SA with until it’s confirmed this is what has happened.
But anything to beat him with seems to be the order of the day
Not just anything though is it? in no particular order of importance:
The short term nature of the appointment in the first place and the recruitment since. OK snafu. but does not help.
Tarnished reputation before he came back here: ok give a guy a chance
Front of camera after match interviews: everybody to blame but me. wtf?
Team morale: may have not been good but is worse since he took over and going downhill fast. Marginalised best performers, Instinct, skill and pace chucked away and replaced with dour (failure to) 'play to instructions'. The team do not seem to want to play for this man. They may try to do as they are told, try to fulfil their obligations to the club but no more than that - no pleasure, no joy, no pride, nothing extra. Football should have some element of playing with the heart. Men like Allardyce never seem to get this from their teams.
Team selection: omg enough said
Atmosphere at the club. the only ****** I saw at the Spuds game laughing and looking cheerful was Allardyce.
Style of play: is outdated cheerless, devoid of enjoyment for players and spectators. Based on fear. Most importantly it is not proving effective, and is not suited to the skill set of most of players we have/had.
Goals against: Never have I witnessed so many goals being scored against us in so few games.
A demoralised club and a divided fan base. Design or accident? - divided opinion
And above all RESULTS and performances. He has had long enough now to show that he is capable of getting something better out of the team in terms of points. He has only shown how much worse it might become if he is allowed to persist with his destruction of all that was good about the West Bromwich Albion Football Club I (used to) support. The one I support now is quickly becoming a laughing stock and Allardyce is a part of that.
How much more leeway are you/we going to give him? How many more excuses are we/you going to make for him? How much more must we take of this dire, fear ridden football just because Sam Allardyce is not Slaven Bilic?
No we really do not need speculation; not when the evidence is clear and damning.
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His body language during recent games is, to me at least, totally unacceptable. Virtually lying down in his seat and just looking miserable the whole time. I am sure that this really motivates players when they look in his direction.
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I appreciate the mathematical analysis but it doesn’t apply to the reality of what’s happening.
We have 15 games to get 26 points.
So far we have had 23 games and got 12.
Sam has 5 points in 10 games.
The major challenge of the mathematical equation is what’s actually happening. So far we haven’t even looked like getting any more points. In the games we have lost bar West Ham we have been outplayed comfortably. The other humorous assumption is that we can get 26 points and Burnley, Brighton and Newcastle won’t keep accumulating points. All have better form than us :)
Fans (I always fall into this) assume form and momentum will magically turn on. I remember a podcast about England at the World Cup under Sven (can’t remember which one). The premise was England are playing rubbish but still winning. When we went out someone said “if your playing rubbish and winning, eventually your likely to be rubbish and lose. It’s a flawed plan :)â€
Technically I still have a chance to get on the plane to the Euros this summer, I would argue from what I see that all evidence is to the contrary...
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The thing is if he goes who do you replace him with? Next seasons manager wouldnt want the job yet. Not only does he get a relegation on his CV but a string of poor performances and results probably, at best, splits the fans before next season even starts. You could appoint a caretaker till the end of the season.
Personally, I'd stick with Allardyce for now. Bring in a new man for the last half a dozen games or so when everyone has accepted our fate and give him that bit of time to work out what he needs for next season.
i would prefer to go down with some pride, at least more hopeful for next season then if we play some football in these last few months.
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Not sure we did that but......................
Not yesterday maybe, but we spend a lot of time defending the 18yd line. As folks here have said, we defend much better when we actually try to attack.
Bilic brought in players to play an expansive footballing style.
If SA gets the gig permanently his reputation is a more pragmatic style, so it's likely he'll want Pirera, Diangana etc sold to make room for players that fit his style,
I agree with you, it's been my biggest worry since he (SA) took over.
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There is break clause in contract if we are relagated which can be used by either side, Dowling would be nuts not to use it.
Mate, he hired him in the first place! Quite aside from that decision being a bad one, he might not want to admit he was wrong, and using the break clause to get rid of him might give some people that idea.
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“Unfortunately they got through us by of our lack of concentration and good decision-making in the right areas which we paid the price for," said Allardyce
This is becoming a frustration of mine. He has quite clearly seen that the defensive personnel are not up to scratch and are error prone. The constant criticism in the media whilst sometimes warranted is not going to help us. We know we need to cut out the errors - but those errors are magnified by our refusal to play any other way than soak up pressure.
If you want to ease the pressure on your defenders then we ideally need to play 15 yards further up the pitch and retain some of the ball.
The players (in particular Ajayi, O'Shea and Furlong) are relatively poor at this level and no amount of work on the training field is going to cut out their defensive mistakes.
I totally accept we need to improve as a defensive unit - from back to front - but that doesn't not mean we should forgo any sort of attacking threat. The reality is that Allardyce is acting surprised that a team which has shown they cannot cut out silly errors are still making errors despite being asked to defend for the large majority of a game. If he wants to preserve his reputation then he also needs to change the way we set up.
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Sam is Pardew
Not quite. Allardyce's win percentage and ppg are both lower than Pardew's, if you can believe that.
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Not just anything though is it? in no particular order of importance:
The short term nature of the appointment in the first place and the recruitment since. OK snafu. but does not help.
Tarnished reputation before he came back here: ok give a guy a chance
Front of camera after match interviews: everybody to blame but me. wtf?
Team morale: may have not been good but is worse since he took over and going downhill fast. Marginalised best performers, Instinct, skill and pace chucked away and replaced with dour (failure to) 'play to instructions'. The team do not seem to want to play for this man. They may try to do as they are told, try to fulfil their obligations to the club but no more than that - no pleasure, no joy, no pride, nothing extra. Football should have some element of playing with the heart. Men like Allardyce never seem to get this from their teams.
Team selection: omg enough said
Atmosphere at the club. the only ****** I saw at the Spuds game laughing and looking cheerful was Allardyce.
Style of play: is outdated cheerless, devoid of enjoyment for players and spectators. Based on fear. Most importantly it is not proving effective, and is not suited to the skill set of most of players we have/had.
Goals against: Never have I witnessed so many goals being scored against us in so few games.
A demoralised club and a divided fan base. Design or accident? - divided opinion
And above all RESULTS and performances. He has had long enough now to show that he is capable of getting something better out of the team in terms of points. He has only shown how much worse it might become if he is allowed to persist with his destruction of all that was good about the West Bromwich Albion Football Club I (used to) support. The one I support now is quickly becoming a laughing stock and Allardyce is a part of that.
How much more leeway are you/we going to give him? How many more excuses are we/you going to make for him? How much more must we take of this dire, fear ridden football just because Sam Allardyce is not Slaven Bilic?
No we really do not need speculation; not when the evidence is clear and damning.
Pretty accurate assessment overall. The only thing I think I would take issue with is that, from what I can gather, morale was pretty good right up until the time when Bilic left. A few of us predicted that it would take a tumble when Allardyce was appointed, didn't take much foresight to predict that though tbh.
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Pretty accurate assessment overall. The only thing I think I would take issue with is that, from what I can gather, morale was pretty good right up until the time when Bilic left. A few of us predicted that it would take a tumble when Allardyce was appointed, didn't take much foresight to predict that though tbh.
Morale is low because we are losing, that is true across the board, players, fans, tea lady everyone feels it. It has got worse under Allardyce, which may be a bit to do with his management style but, I am pretty sure that, if Bilic had stayed, or a different replacement been found, if the results had remained the same, then so would the level of morale.
The top and bottom is we just can't compete in this league, because of our budget, so we may as well try and enjoy it and the best way to do that would be to set our stall out to back a young manager with good ideas. Allardyce isn't that but nor was Bilic.
We would still have to accept regular beatings and relegation though and therein lies the problem, for all we talk about style of play etc. it is winning games that make football fans happy so, whoever the manager or style is, if we are losing every week, we lose patience and become demoralised.
The only way we get over this is to expect and accept relegation every time we go up, but that is not the way of the football fan.
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The boards 'Hail Mary' appointment of SA has comprehensively failed, having attempted to put the squarest block in the roundest hole by appointing a 'no possession' manager over a group of limited quality 'possession based' type of footballers.
I see no point in allowing SA to continue trying to impose his archaic brand of football on these players and us fans. The longer he is here, the more long term damage will occur & we will be left trying to rebuild our playing style, playing staff & our clubs reputation.
The SA experiment is an utter disaster. There is no way we stay up this season.
The sooner he walks or is sacked, the better.
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I appreciate the mathematical analysis but it doesn’t apply to the reality of what’s happening.
We have 15 games to get 26 points.
So far we have had 23 games and got 12.
Sam has 5 points in 10 games.
The major challenge of the mathematical equation is what’s actually happening. So far we haven’t even looked like getting any more points. In the games we have lost bar West Ham we have been outplayed comfortably. The other humorous assumption is that we can get 26 points and Burnley, Brighton and Newcastle won’t keep accumulating points. All have better form than us :)
Fans (I always fall into this) assume form and momentum will magically turn on. I remember a podcast about England at the World Cup under Sven (can’t remember which one). The premise was England are playing rubbish but still winning. When we went out someone said “if your playing rubbish and winning, eventually your likely to be rubbish and lose. It’s a flawed plan :)â€
Technically I still have a chance to get on the plane to the Euros this summer, I would argue from what I see that all evidence is to the contrary...
We couldn’t beat Fulham or sheffU - I can’t see us beating Burnley or Brighton and those two games will seal our fate
Once we do go down it will be interesting to see how the board handle the situation.
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I listened to his reasoning for his team selection v Spurs, but several things don't add up. He says previous formations haven't worked, ok, but we were 2-0 down in the 58th minute. i.e this formation wasn't working. But instead of making the key change, i.e. re-introducing Pereira right away, he waits until the 79th minute. We've lost 21 crucial minutes of a game we are losing before making the crucial change. And for my money we looked most dangerous after this change was made, but then it was too late.
Secondly, yes, he's right the defence has to be tightened, but we still have to score goals to win football matches. Pereira is our top scorer and is involved in virtually all our goals. Mourinho must have thought he'd won the jackpot when he heard our team selection, whilst making damned sure Kane was on the field. SA obsession on the defence is costing us further up the pitch. A more perfect illustration you won't find.
He has to concentrate on making the defenders and defensive midfield better at doing their jobs, but not at the expense of the attack. Other managers who have defensive problems, don't resort to sacrificing their forwards and attacking play. As some have said, Grant put in a decent shift as a left back, but he's supposed to be a forward.
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Actually, leaving Pereira on the bench was a master stroke. Mourinho would have spent all week planning to put 2 players on Periera to negate our attacking threat. For 45 minutes 2 Spurs midfield players were lost with nobody to mark, effectively Allardyce’s genius had them down to just 9 players.
The problem came when at half time they realized that we had no attacking threat.
Has he gone yet?
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Not just anything though is it? in no particular order of importance:
The short term nature of the appointment in the first place and the recruitment since. OK snafu. but does not help.
Tarnished reputation before he came back here: ok give a guy a chance
Front of camera after match interviews: everybody to blame but me. wtf?
Team morale: may have not been good but is worse since he took over and going downhill fast. Marginalised best performers, Instinct, skill and pace chucked away and replaced with dour (failure to) 'play to instructions'. The team do not seem to want to play for this man. They may try to do as they are told, try to fulfil their obligations to the club but no more than that - no pleasure, no joy, no pride, nothing extra. Football should have some element of playing with the heart. Men like Allardyce never seem to get this from their teams.
Team selection: omg enough said
Atmosphere at the club. the only ****** I saw at the Spuds game laughing and looking cheerful was Allardyce.
Style of play: is outdated cheerless, devoid of enjoyment for players and spectators. Based on fear. Most importantly it is not proving effective, and is not suited to the skill set of most of players we have/had.
Goals against: Never have I witnessed so many goals being scored against us in so few games.
A demoralised club and a divided fan base. Design or accident? - divided opinion
And above all RESULTS and performances. He has had long enough now to show that he is capable of getting something better out of the team in terms of points. He has only shown how much worse it might become if he is allowed to persist with his destruction of all that was good about the West Bromwich Albion Football Club I (used to) support. The one I support now is quickly becoming a laughing stock and Allardyce is a part of that.
How much more leeway are you/we going to give him? How many more excuses are we/you going to make for him? How much more must we take of this dire, fear ridden football just because Sam Allardyce is not Slaven Bilic?
No we really do not need speculation; not when the evidence is clear and damning.
It was regarding the Pereira storming out and Diangana saying he would never play for the club again rumours.
That is the pure speculation I’m referencing
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West Bromwich Albion
And that's all that matters. I've tried to get behind him, but the bloke has lost the plot in the last 2 fixtures:
1) Sheff Utd: picking Livermore instead of Gallagher. Playing negative, defensive football with the luxury of a 0-1 lead. Where is Diangana?
2) Tottenham: leaving Pereira & Robinson on the bench. Making no attempt at all to win the match and settling for a drab 0-0. Where is Diangana?
I and many others no longer want Allardyce.
So you can’t name one?
So because he’s dropped players from 1 game he now doesn’t ever play them and marginalises flair and talented players?
That’s not true is it really
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West Bromwich Albion
And that's all that matters. I've tried to get behind him, but the bloke has lost the plot in the last 2 fixtures:
1) Sheff Utd: picking Livermore instead of Gallagher. Playing negative, defensive football with the luxury of a 0-1 lead. Where is Diangana?
2) Tottenham: leaving Pereira & Robinson on the bench. Making no attempt at all to win the match and settling for a drab 0-0. Where is Diangana?
I and many others no longer want Allardyce.
Hasn’t Diangana been out injured?? Made of weetabix the bloke is and hardly set the world on fire when he was fit this season.
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folks, this petty bickering and sniping is getting boring. If you do not like an individual then I suggest you ignore them.
Two members have been banned today and there will be plenty more if folk do not start treating each other with some courtesy
We’re in a pandemic, the football is rubbish. It would be nice to see some of you looking out for each other for a change rather than derailing every thread with the personal bickering and sniping.
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So you can’t name one?
So because he’s dropped players from 1 game he now doesn’t ever play them and marginalises flair and talented players?
That’s not true is it really
I think boinging_along did a bit of research on this. He provided a few examples in his post at 11.45 this morning, which you maybe missed.
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I think of myself as an optimistic fan.
We take 1 point out of 6 in ‘must win’ games against the 2 other dross sides in the league, and then just turn up for the Spurs game
How are we getting 6 let alone 26 points from the last 15 games?
We have no fight or ambition on the pitch or in the dugout.
Man Utd at the weekend - instead of taking the game to their suspect defence we will sit back wait for them to score and then try and put a few long throws in.
All I ask is to give it a go rather than go through the motions
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I think boinging_along did a bit of research on this. He provided a few examples in his post at 11.45 this morning, which you maybe missed.
I’ll have a look
Cheers for the heads up
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Solano at Newcastle. Got sidelined as Sam wanted to concentrate on long throws and long balls. Was very vocal about it. Vlasic at Everton, Santa Cruz at Blackburn and Farralley at Bolton too.
Solano was also 33/34. He’d only played about 20 games the previous season.
Roque Santa Cruz played 27 games for him that season. He’d had a very good season before and was linked with clubs. Could be his head was turned and he stopped putting in the effort in in training etc.
Vlasic, had to look him up....can’t even remember him.
Gareth Farrelly...talented and a flair player?? I wouldt have called him that myself
Now let’s look at his Bolton side...
Jay Jay Okocha
Youri Djorkaeff
Nicholas Anelka
Giannakopolous
He’s played Pereira here in most games.
He’s given Gallagher runs of games
He’s brought in AMN, Yokuslu, Diagne and Snodgrass. Talent and flair. Granted Snodgrass has played out of position on the whole and is better out wide getting crosses in. But all identified and brought in under Sam
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I think of myself as an optimistic fan.
We take 1 point out of 6 in ‘must win’ games against the 2 other dross sides in the league, and then just turn up for the Spurs game
How are we getting 6 let alone 26 points from the last 15 games?
We have no fight or ambition on the pitch or in the dugout.
Man Utd at the weekend - instead of taking the game to their suspect defence we will sit back wait for them to score and then try and put a few long throws in.
All I ask is to give it a go rather than go through the motions
Replace the words must win , with must not lose. That tells you all you need to know about his mentality. Which is exactly the same under Pulis.
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We have fifteen must win games remaining.
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Always admired Allardyce for doing things a different way at other clubs , what he did with Bolton was unbelievable over time .
Later on at Palace and especially Sunderland took quite the efforts too , stop conceding but attacked with some confidence and swagger . I totally get why we went for him , not pretty but got the job done .
I just wonder now if he's a bit too old , he doesn't seem to have that zest around him anymore and IMO he's took on more than he can handle here .
I'm not going to excuse the usual suspects of the playing squad , this will be another manager they have seen off but I think a good pasting off Man Utd and that might be it .
I'm too young to really remember Saunders but some of the things I've read do reflect a few things now .
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Always admired Allardyce for doing things a different way at other clubs , what he did with Bolton was unbelievable over time .
Later on at Palace and especially Sunderland took quite the efforts too , stop conceding but attacked with some confidence and swagger . I totally get why we went for him , not pretty but got the job done .
I just wonder now if he's a bit too old , he doesn't seem to have that zest around him anymore and IMO he's took on more than he can handle here .
I'm not going to excuse the usual suspects of the playing squad , this will be another manager they have seen off but I think a good pasting off Man Utd and that might be it .
I'm too young to really remember Saunders but some of the things I've read do reflect a few things now .
This is exactly how I feel.
I’ve admired his sides how they’ve managed to balance the defensive style alongside a decent attacking prowess.
His appointment hasn’t had the desired effect. I think most of the problems started in the summer and the entire club hasn’t recovered and has been on a downward spiral since.
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We have fifteen must win games remaining.
TO get to 38 points we would need to average 1.73points per game which is what Spurs and West Ham are currently doing. That aint happening.
Also the Newcastles, Burnleys would have to have a catastrophic run of form not to get to 38 points from where they are now. sadly we are toast.
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Always admired Allardyce for doing things a different way at other clubs , what he did with Bolton was unbelievable over time .
Later on at Palace and especially Sunderland took quite the efforts too , stop conceding but attacked with some confidence and swagger . I totally get why we went for him , not pretty but got the job done .
I just wonder now if he's a bit too old , he doesn't seem to have that zest around him anymore and IMO he's took on more than he can handle here .
I'm not going to excuse the usual suspects of the playing squad , this will be another manager they have seen off but I think a good pasting off Man Utd and that might be it .
I'm too young to really remember Saunders but some of the things I've read do reflect a few things now .
Bang on. In hindsight it's easy to paint Allardyce as a dinosaur now we've seen him fail with us. However, it's quick to forget that before he came here, his stock was high. He performed a miracle at Sunderland, arguably with a team similar to ours and did very well at Palace and West Ham fans speak very highly of him. His two worst spells prior to us were Newcastle and Everton. In terms of both eras of those two, he's done average in terms of the other managers they've had...but regardless of style he was never in doubt of survival.
We can all judge him now as he's clearly lost something, but upon appointing him he was well regarded. I don't buy into 'styles' too much in terms of players not fitting him and only fitting well with attacking football. It works both ways and they should be able to adapt to anything they're told to do. Anyway...whatever you think of the how or why, the reality is that Allardyce just isn't good enough and it hasn't worked.
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He also had finances to buy the players he need at those clubs to get them out of trouble, here that was never going to happen so its down to his (or little Sams) coaching ability.
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He also had finances to buy the players he need at those clubs to get them out of trouble, here that was never going to happen so its down to his (or little Sams) coaching ability.
I think thats fair to say about finances. There isnt ANY coach that could right this sinking ship with the ridiculously low finances we offfered Sam in January. I actually think its impressive we managed to sign the players we did.
We have a championship defence in the Premier League. The writing was on the wall last season.
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The fact Allardyce took this WBA job, shows a catastrophic mis-judgement on his behalf. Here we are talking about a 66 year old, who's spent a lifetime in football both playing and managing in the top flight.
If you're being ultra critical, it casts doubt on his footballing intelligence and knowledge to arrogantly think he could rock up here and overturn the so called fallings of Bilic. The fact that Bilic has performed better than Allardyce makes him a better Manager right here, right now. Allardyce is yesterday's man.
In short he has failed to adapt to the merits of the WBA squad. Instead trying to force his own outdated methods within a structure that doesn't confirm to his ideals on playing football (a strong defence). What Allardyce has done so far in terms of adjustments was totally unnecessary for a team only 3 points of safety when he arrived.
I expect him to get a tune out of the new players from here and we may yet limp to 25 points. But Bilic would have changed things around in the January window too and I'm sure shown improvement. Any falling out with Pereira and Diangana is a disaster in itself.
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Bang on. In hindsight it's easy to paint Allardyce as a dinosaur now we've seen him fail with us. However, it's quick to forget that before he came here, his stock was high. He performed a miracle at Sunderland, arguably with a team similar to ours and did very well at Palace and West Ham fans speak very highly of him. His two worst spells prior to us were Newcastle and Everton. In terms of both eras of those two, he's done average in terms of the other managers they've had...but regardless of style he was never in doubt of survival.
We can all judge him now as he's clearly lost something, but upon appointing him he was well regarded. I don't buy into 'styles' too much in terms of players not fitting him and only fitting well with attacking football. It works both ways and they should be able to adapt to anything they're told to do. Anyway...whatever you think of the how or why, the reality is that Allardyce just isn't good enough and it hasn't worked.
I agree with this in parts but I wouldn’t say he failed at Everton. He took a side seriously struggling at the bottom of the table to finish 8th.
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The fact Allardyce took this WBA job, shows a catastrophic mis-judgement on his behalf. Here we are talking about a 66 year old, who's spent a lifetime in football both playing and managing in the top flight.
If you're being ultra critical, it casts doubt on his footballing intelligence and knowledge to arrogantly think he could rock up here and overturn the so called fallings of Bilic. The fact that Bilic has performed better than Allardyce makes him a better Manager right here, right now. Allardyce is yesterday's man.
In short he has failed to adapt to the merits of the WBA squad. Instead trying to force his own outdated methods within a structure that doesn't confirm to his ideals on playing football (a strong defence). What Allardyce has done so far in terms of adjustments was totally unnecessary for a team only 3 points of safety when he arrived.
I expect him to get a tune out of the new players from here and we may yet limp to 25 points. But Bilic would have changed things around in the January window too and I'm sure shown improvement. Any falling out with Pereira and Diangana is a disaster in itself.
So any manager that rocked up here would have rocked up here after Bilic and arrogantly thought they could make a better fist of it then surely??
Why is it ‘arrogantly’ thought?
Why not just ‘thought’ he could come in and do what he has done at every club he has ever gone to....
Have you ever gone into a job where someone was sacked for failing to do their job, having made mistakes, failed to turn around those mistakes or make things better and then considered yourself arrogant for thinking you could do the job better??
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You can analyse Sam's motives, abilities, record etc all you want but the most significant factors leading to our present predicament are an owner who has no interest in the club other than wanting the best exit price he can get, and a Board of Directors who couldn't direct traffic in a 1 way street, resulting in a playing staff who are clearly just not up to premier league standards. Allardyce wasn't arrogant in taking the job-he just under estimated the size of the task and perhaps was misled as to what funds he would have to tackle it-although that's obviously speculation on my part.
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This whole Bilic vs Allardyce thing is just silly. They are both partly to blame but the overriding reason, for our current predicament, is finance. We just don't have the money to compete.
I wasn't necessarily in the "Bilic Out" camp but he can have no complaints. Not so much for this season's results but for those at the end of last season and the signings and attitude at the start of this. Personally I would have stuck with him as I felt no coach would be able to keep us up with what we had but, he made his bed and he had to lie in it.
I was definitely in the "Not Allardyce" camp because I don't like the way he plays the game and I don't perceive him to be a very nice bloke. I also think he has always had an element of contempt for our club. Once he was in though, I wanted him to succeed because I wanted us to succeed. It's clear now that is not going to happen so, leave him in place until relegation is confirmed and then look long and hard at how we go into next season.
There is no way though that we are as bad as some make out, in regards to the Championship. We will be competitive and, if we get the right bloke in, there is no reason why we can't come straight back up.
Worst case scenario would be to have a late rally and extend Allardyce's contract, despite going down.
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This whole Bilic vs Allardyce thing is just silly. They are both partly to blame but the overriding reason, for our current predicament, is finance. We just don't have the money to compete.
I wasn't necessarily in the "Bilic Out" camp but he can have no complaints. Not so much for this season's results but for those at the end of last season and the signings and attitude at the start of this. Personally I would have stuck with him as I felt no coach would be able to keep us up with what we had but, he made his bed and he had to lie in it.
I was definitely in the "Not Allardyce" camp because I don't like the way he plays the game and I don't perceive him to be a very nice bloke. I also think he has always had an element of contempt for our club. Once he was in though, I wanted him to succeed because I wanted us to succeed. It's clear now that is not going to happen so, leave him in place until relegation is confirmed and then look long and hard at how we go into next season.
There is no way though that we are as bad as some make out, in regards to the Championship. We will be competitive and, if we get the right bloke in, there is no reason why we can't come straight back up.
Worst case scenario would be to have a late rally and extend Allardyce's contract, despite going down.
Totally agree. No manager would kept this lot up in my opinion but t least something was done to try to prevent us going down. (Obviously now seems like the wrong decision)
Ole you said finances and investment are the issue. We have the lowest value squad in the prem and have spent the lowest amount compared to all teams. So based on that fact it should really be a surprise we are where we are currently. That said I would have liked to see us give it more of a go on the pitch.
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This whole Bilic vs Allardyce thing is just silly. They are both partly to blame but the overriding reason, for our current predicament, is finance. We just don't have the money to compete.
I wasn't necessarily in the "Bilic Out" camp but he can have no complaints. Not so much for this season's results but for those at the end of last season and the signings and attitude at the start of this. Personally I would have stuck with him as I felt no coach would be able to keep us up with what we had but, he made his bed and he had to lie in it.
I was definitely in the "Not Allardyce" camp because I don't like the way he plays the game and I don't perceive him to be a very nice bloke. I also think he has always had an element of contempt for our club. Once he was in though, I wanted him to succeed because I wanted us to succeed. It's clear now that is not going to happen so, leave him in place until relegation is confirmed and then look long and hard at how we go into next season.
There is no way though that we are as bad as some make out, in regards to the Championship. We will be competitive and, if we get the right bloke in, there is no reason why we can't come straight back up.
Worst case scenario would be to have a late rally and extend Allardyce's contract, despite going down.
Exactly, this thread is just full of ‘my favourite manager was rubbish but he is isn’t doing as rubbish as your favourite manager’ ;D
End of the day they have both failed to get anything from these players which again to me isn’t that much of an awful thing as I believe the players are the problem as they are not good enough.
I was never in the ‘Bilic out’ camp but when the decision was made I could understand it as Allardyce has a history of keeping teams up when in our position. Again I still didn’t think he would because the players aren’t good enough and he wouldn’t have any funds to improve it.
I’d keep Allardyce until the end of the season just so we don’t bring a caretaker in I.e. Morrison who may pick up a few results then all of a sudden we employ him full time like the Moore situation. I’ve given up on the season and let’s be honest it’s impossible for us to stay up so just play it out and hope the circus at the top are planning for the new manager and players. (Very doubtful I know)
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Bilic's and Allardyce’s tenure in prem has been disappointing but three players have improved under big Sam of late. Perreira, Bartley and Johnstone pitty he's unable to get a tune out of rest.
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This whole Bilic vs Allardyce thing is just silly. They are both partly to blame but the overriding reason, for our current predicament, is finance. We just don't have the money to compete.
I wasn't necessarily in the "Bilic Out" camp but he can have no complaints. Not so much for this season's results but for those at the end of last season and the signings and attitude at the start of this. Personally I would have stuck with him as I felt no coach would be able to keep us up with what we had but, he made his bed and he had to lie in it.
I was definitely in the "Not Allardyce" camp because I don't like the way he plays the game and I don't perceive him to be a very nice bloke. I also think he has always had an element of contempt for our club. Once he was in though, I wanted him to succeed because I wanted us to succeed. It's clear now that is not going to happen so, leave him in place until relegation is confirmed and then look long and hard at how we go into next season.
There is no way though that we are as bad as some make out, in regards to the Championship. We will be competitive and, if we get the right bloke in, there is no reason why we can't come straight back up.
Worst case scenario would be to have a late rally and extend Allardyce's contract, despite going down.
This is a scenario I can well imagine happening and one I dread.
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The fact Allardyce took this WBA job, shows a catastrophic mis-judgement on his behalf. Here we are talking about a 66 year old, who's spent a lifetime in football both playing and managing in the top flight.
If you're being ultra critical, it casts doubt on his footballing intelligence and knowledge to arrogantly think he could rock up here and overturn the so called fallings of Bilic. The fact that Bilic has performed better than Allardyce makes him a better Manager right here, right now. Allardyce is yesterday's man.
In short he has failed to adapt to the merits of the WBA squad. Instead trying to force his own outdated methods within a structure that doesn't confirm to his ideals on playing football (a strong defence). What Allardyce has done so far in terms of adjustments was totally unnecessary for a team only 3 points of safety when he arrived.
I expect him to get a tune out of the new players from here and we may yet limp to 25 points. But Bilic would have changed things around in the January window too and I'm sure shown improvement. Any falling out with Pereira and Diangana is a disaster in itself.
Can you please enlighten me on the merits of our championship squad playing in the Premier league?
Sam has called them for what they are in my opinion.
Bilic has gone btw, and he isn't coming back.
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I don't get this "his stock was high", he left the England job in shame, he's had multiple investigations into his behaviour, he lasted one season at Everton and West Ham. He spent around £30m in January to save Palace. He spent £40m in one window for Everton, even at Sunderland he spent £16m.
Just look at the end of his tenure at any of his jobs - fans weren't happy because the football was awful, even when he was getting results - I've no idea where this myth that he played some attacking football has come from. I mean, at Bolton about 14 years ago maybe?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/may/16/wretched-football-sam-allardyce-everton-sack
https://twitter.com/SkySportsStatto/status/996683148028272640
Quote from West Ham website: "The 65-year-old was never a popular figure in east London, however. The playing style he implemented at West Ham was perceived to be a dull brand of defensive, negative football."
Quote from that article about Everton and how he'd inherited a squad from Koeman: "Allardyce leaves Everton after six miserable months with his reputation as a survival specialist intact. Therein lies the failure. Everton, as the 63-year‑old admitted when installed as Ronald Koeman’s replacement in November, represented the best opportunity of his club career to shatter preconceptions about his management style.
He succeeded only in confirming they were legitimate. Wretched football on a weekly basis, taking responsibility for victory while abdicating it in defeat and an arrogant dismissal of supporters were not the basis for building consensus or hope for the future. "
Any of that sound familiar at all?
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Can you please enlighten me on the merits of our championship squad playing in the Premier league?
Sam has called them for what they are in my opinion.
Bilic has gone btw, and he isn't coming back.
We have a team that prefers to have the football, keep it on the deck and pass it through midfield. We may not be very good at it, but we are *definitely* better at that than defending the edge of our box and conceding possession for 90 minutes.
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We have a team that prefers to have the football, keep it on the deck and pass it through midfield. We may not be very good at it, but we are *definitely* better at that than defending the edge of our box and conceding possession for 90 minutes.
And therein lies the problem, we are not very good at it which why we find ourselves defending deeply in this division.
We may definitely be better at that style, but unfortunately the other teams are better than us.
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It was regarding the Pereira storming out and Diangana saying he would never play for the club again rumours.
That is the pure speculation I’m referencing
Understood Tom and agreed. I was not trying to get at anybody particularly not you. just trying to point out similar to yourself that speculation is a waste of time when there is hard evidence.
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We have a team that prefers to have the football, keep it on the deck and pass it through midfield. We may not be very good at it, but we are *definitely* better at that than defending the edge of our box and conceding possession for 90 minutes.
Agreed. We dont have the players to play the way Allardyce likes to play.
That is the problem with appointing a manager who's philosophy is the polar opposite of the previous one.
We cannot do this moving forward. Whoever is in charge at the start of next season needs to lay foundations that we build on and continue to build on.
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Any of that sound familiar at all?
Indeed it does and some people's inclination to put Allardyce on a lofty pedestal for his previous exploits should be tempered by the comparison I drew between Allardyce's and Pardew's managerial records in another thread. For all his faults whilst with us, Pardew at least wants his side to play on the front foot.
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We cannot do this moving forward. Whoever is in charge at the start of next season needs to lay foundations that we build on and continue to build on.
And whoever it is needs to be given time to lay the foundations and construct the building. Needless to say, I don't think it should be someone who specialises in a backs to the wall, defensive mentality. I think the way forward is someone with vision, flair, inspiration, creativity and passion who's not afraid to try different things in different games.
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Bilic had us as an attractive passing team even though we had a shortfall in quality. The German guy at Norwich did exactly the same, a very similar situation.
Allardyce (WW apart) has shut down any neat interplay in the opponents half and the recurring theme is us giving the ball away and opponents on the offensive.
Recently I have learnt the following about Allardyce and has led me to the belief he doesnt have a clue anymore about getting the best out of any team:
1) you have to start with the dropping of Pereira at Spurs, just why?
2) where is Diangana? talent wise he's the 2nd best attacking option after Pereira.
3) benching Robinson for Grant or Phillips, are you for real?
4) bringing in Peltier for Furlong or O'Shea, he is worse than both.
5) Livermore v Sheff Utd / Sawyers v Spurs, why? Yokuslu needs to play now, 70% fit he's better than them, match fitness comes with playing games.
So I don't think Allardyce has it anymore, just as well for him he spent considerable sums to rescue CP and Everton. We need tactical acumen in mid December, instead we got bruising defeats with 1 massive highlight.
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The fact Allardyce took this WBA job, shows a catastrophic mis-judgement on his behalf. Here we are talking about a 66 year old, who's spent a lifetime in football both playing and managing in the top flight.
I'm no fan don't get me wrong. I think you are wrong though in saying that in bold above. Who at his age would turn down mega riches for a short term stint, regardless of the outcome? Given his age he wont give a damn about whether or not he gets another gig. This was (is) a massive last chance to earn a fortune. Why would he turn it down?
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I'm no fan don't get me wrong. I think you are wrong though in saying that in bold above. Who at his age would turn down mega riches for a short term stint, regardless of the outcome? Given his age he wont give a damn about whether or not he gets another gig. This was (is) a massive last chance to earn a fortune. Why would he turn it down?
Because Allardyce even said himself on appointment that there was a good sprinkling of talent in the squad and he expected only minor tweaks in January and not a vast overhaul spending £millions.
That says that he completely misread the situation.
Did Allardyce do due diligence? Did he watch video tapes of every game this season? Did he study stats on every single player in the squad?
I only said he might regret this job as its going to result in relegation (and his record broken) and he comes across a very proud man.
Maybe Allardyce doesn't have the energy for it anymore at 66? Maybe when he worked at other clubs and was living away, he was more switched on and dedicated to the task at hand? Maybe now he's half arsed in this job, limping along, and more devoted to his wife and family?
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It always mystifies me, that people seem to think football managers live in a time warp, where different rules apply.
BS has only been in place about two months..... does everyone think you just flick a switch and everything changes. How would that happen in any other business. Results are not measurably different from the previous incumbent and given the relative investment by the club compared to others, we are exactly where we should be. And BS is not even able to coach the team together due to the pandemic, so we have to be realistic.
We were defending on the edge of our box, mainly with a back 5 under Bilic and so its the proverbial "rose tinted" to believe we were measurably more expansive under him.
BS countenance and reputation as the bluff, Jurassic manager actually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Listen to the Athletic podcast feature on him and a very different individual emerges. He was way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas.
And the age thing is a red herring. Slurr Alex and Hodgson have proved you can go beyond 70 if you have the desire. I don't doubt he has sufficient money and so in some ways its laudable he wants to put his reputation on the line at this point... whatever the incentives. I suspect he just loves to be involved in the game.
Undoubtedly he has underestimated the weaknesses in the team, but let's give him a chance until the end of the season and make a sensible assessment then.
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It always mystifies me, that people seem to think football managers live in a time warp, where different rules apply.
BS has only been in place about two months..... does everyone think you just flick a switch and everything changes. How would that happen in any other business. Results are not measurably different from the previous incumbent and given the relative investment by the club compared to others, we are exactly where we should be. And BS is not even able to coach the team together due to the pandemic, so we have to be realistic.
We were defending on the edge of our box, mainly with a back 5 under Bilic and so its the proverbial "rose tinted" to believe we were measurably more expansive under him.
BS countenance and reputation as the bluff, Jurassic manager actually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Listen to the Athletic podcast feature on him and a very different individual emerges. He was way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas.
And the age thing is a red herring. Slurr Alex and Hodgson have proved you can go beyond 70 if you have the desire. I don't doubt he has sufficient money and so in some ways its laudable he wants to put his reputation on the line at this point... whatever the incentives. I suspect he just loves to be involved in the game.
Undoubtedly he has underestimated the weaknesses in the team, but let's give him a chance until the end of the season and make a sensible assessment then.
An excellent post.
Fully agree aswell
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Because Allardyce even said himself on appointment that there was a good sprinkling of talent in the squad and he expected only minor tweaks in January and not a vast overhaul spending £millions.
That says that he completely misread the situation.
Did Allardyce do due diligence? Did he watch video tapes of every game this season? Did he study stats on every single player in the squad?
I only said he might regret this job as its going to result in relegation (and his record broken) and he comes across a very proud man.
Maybe Allardyce doesn't have the energy for it anymore at 66? Maybe when he worked at other clubs and was living away, he was more switched on and dedicated to the task at hand? Maybe now he's half arsed in this job, limping along, and more devoted to his wife and family?
It doesnt say that at all, he is being 'diplomatic' with the players he inherited.
He is hardly going to come out and say 'the team is pants and we need a new one'.
I get that you dont like him Greg, but we were a bit short on alternatives and we had no money. He has succeeded elsewhere because he has been given a budget to get players in. Personally I think he has done well getting any players in with the jar of buttons he had to spend.
He is not a long term plan, he is a short term fix to try and save a vanity project. Once we are finally taken around the back of the bikeshed and shot we will hopefully have the reset we are all looking for.
Even now a couple of wins will put a completely different slant on our outcome.
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It always mystifies me, that people seem to think football managers live in a time warp, where different rules apply.
BS has only been in place about two months..... does everyone think you just flick a switch and everything changes. How would that happen in any other business. Results are not measurably different from the previous incumbent and given the relative investment by the club compared to others, we are exactly where we should be. And BS is not even able to coach the team together due to the pandemic, so we have to be realistic.
We were defending on the edge of our box, mainly with a back 5 under Bilic and so its the proverbial "rose tinted" to believe we were measurably more expansive under him.
BS countenance and reputation as the bluff, Jurassic manager actually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Listen to the Athletic podcast feature on him and a very different individual emerges. He was way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas.
And the age thing is a red herring. Slurr Alex and Hodgson have proved you can go beyond 70 if you have the desire. I don't doubt he has sufficient money and so in some ways its laudable he wants to put his reputation on the line at this point... whatever the incentives. I suspect he just loves to be involved in the game.
Undoubtedly he has underestimated the weaknesses in the team, but let's give him a chance until the end of the season and make a sensible assessment then.
Best Post for a while until the extremely unlikely last sentence ;D
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Because Allardyce even said himself on appointment that there was a good sprinkling of talent in the squad and he expected only minor tweaks in January and not a vast overhaul spending £millions.
Is that not exactly what has happened?
Do we not have a sprinkling of talent in the side and he has made minor tweaks to the side without a massive overhaul spending millions?
He’s done exactly what he said he would do and once the new players are bedded in we should see an upturn.
I do agree though that it’s too late.
We haven’t picked up enough points earlier in the season to give us a good platform to go from.
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Excellent post Stuvetti. Some on here are just on a crusade against him. It hasnt turned out the way anyone hoped so far but even if we were pushing for Europe it would be the same.
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does everyone think you just flick a switch and everything changes.
That's the standard expectation in the hire and fire football world isn't it? It's why many managers don't last 18 months before they're sacked. That culture might be wrong, but it doesn't make Allardyce exempt from it where others aren't.
In dire situations, new managers are expected to hit the ground running, especially as the financial stakes get higher and higher. So far, Allardyce hasn't got beyond hitting the ground and collapsing in a heap.
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Excellent post Stuvetti. Some on here are just on a crusade against him. It hasnt turned out the way anyone hoped so far but even if we were pushing for Europe it would be the same.
10 games in and he has the worst managerial record in the history of club, but it's those who are opposed to him who are the ones on a crusade?
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10 games in and he has the worst managerial record in the history of club, but it's those who are opposed to him who are the ones on a crusade?
Think about those first 3 words...
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We haven’t picked up enough points earlier in the season to give us a good platform to go from.
We were 3 points from safety when he arrived, now we're 11 points adrift. At what point does anything become his responsibility?
I haven't checked (it's pretty difficult to do so), but it must be quite likely that Allardyce's first 10 games at the club have been the worst of any new Albion manager ever and yet somehow it's not his fault and we should cut him some slack...
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Think about those first 3 words...
See my post above this one. Bilic got 13 games this season before he was sacked. It's common amongst those backing Allardyce the most to say that Bilic should have been sacked earlier. One rule for one...
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We were 3 points from safety when he arrived, now we're 11 points adrift. At what point does anything become his responsibility?
I haven't checked (it's pretty difficult to do so), but it must be quite likely that Allardyce's first 10 games at the club have been the worst of any new Albion manager ever and yet somehow it's not his fault and we should cut him some slack...
Don’t know why you quoted me?
Us, Fulham and Sheff Utd are in the position many expected. The teams above us weren’t and were in false positions points wise. They’re game and therefore points picked up, whereas our have stayed the same regardless of who has been in charge.
That seems like a player problem to me.
My point was that under both Bilic and Allardyce we haven’t picked up enough points from August to early Jan to leave us in contention after the transfer window and the new players to have much of a chance of staying up.
Nothing has changed much in our PPG all season, at the rate it was at under Bilic and again Allardyce the points adrift would be exactly the same
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Think about those first 3 words...
It’s almost as if he took over a good side running at a much better ppg.
Allardyce hasn’t had the desired affect, I’ll accept that. However I can’t understand how you can be massively anti alardyce and so pro Bilic when there isn’t really that much of a difference between the two to date.
One had a summer window and transfer budget to make his team and get his players and the other has had to try and turn a ship heading in the wrong direction in a very short period of time. He hasn’t turned it, or put the breaks on, but we haven’t really sped up either.
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10 games in and he has the worst managerial record in the history of club, but it's those who are opposed to him who are the ones on a crusade?
The digs were out before a ball had been kicked under his control. 10 games in and only 1 game to play 'his team' to date. I've not defended his results, they are poor no doubt and likely we will get relegated as it's been left too late transfer wise but thats not Allardyce fault how the board work.
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It’s almost as if he took over a good side running at a much better ppg.
Allardyce hasn’t had the desired affect, I’ll accept that. However I can’t understand how you can be massively anti alardyce and so pro Bilic when there isn’t really that much of a difference between the two to date.
One had a summer window and transfer budget to make his team and get his players and the other has had to try and turn a ship heading in the wrong direction in a very short period of time. He hasn’t turned it, or put the breaks on, but we haven’t really sped up either.
I do have to keep reminding myself that we'd failed to win all but one game prior to his arrival when I read some of the posts about him...
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We were 3 points from safety when he arrived, now we're 11 points adrift. At what point does anything become his responsibility?
I haven't checked (it's pretty difficult to do so), but it must be quite likely that Allardyce's first 10 games at the club have been the worst of any new Albion manager ever and yet somehow it's not his fault and we should cut him some slack...
This keeps getting chucked out. We were only three points behind.
Well if I had a race with usain bolt I’d only be a metre behind at a point in time. It’s reasonable to expect the gap will get bigger on the evidence available though isn’t it.
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One had a summer window and transfer budget to make his team and get his players and the other has had to try and turn a ship heading in the wrong direction in a very short period of time. He hasn’t turned it, or put the breaks on, but we haven’t really sped up either.
Pretty much the only way we could have sped up is by losing every game! Conceding 28 goals in 10 games is indefensible in my view. I wasn't happy with what Bilic was doing, but he probably should have been given more than 13 games in recognition of achieving promotion last season.
Allardyce has been a disaster so far and, in my view, to suggest otherwise is giving him an unjustifiable teflon-coating.
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See my post above this one. Bilic got 13 games this season before he was sacked. It's common amongst those backing Allardyce the most to say that Bilic should have been sacked earlier. One rule for one...
Not at all defending Allardyce as I posted last night , I understood it but it hasn't worked or is unlikely to now .
What I will say is I like a few on here were alarmed with performances and more important the overall results during the 2nd half of last season . I was desperate for Bilic to turn it around but he wasn't sacked due to his last 13 games lets be honest , I haven't got the stat to hand but I recall it not being pretty over 25 ish games .
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Not at all defending Allardyce as I posted last night , I understood it but it hasn't worked or is unlikely to now .
What I will say is I like a few on here were alarmed with performances and more important the overall results during the 2nd half of last season . I was desperate for Bilic to turn it around but he wasn't sacked due to his last 13 games lets be honest , I haven't got the stat to hand but I recall it not being pretty over 25 ish games .
I don't disagree with that, anyone who looks back at my posts from the time would see how angry I was (mainly at the players for lacking bottle). I'm just trying to provide context when several people (not you) are saying that Allardyce shouldn't be judged on the 10 games he's been in charge for, when what's happened in those 10 games has been far worse than anyone on this forum would have envisaged beforehand.
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Not at all defending Allardyce as I posted last night , I understood it but it hasn't worked or is unlikely to now .
What I will say is I like a few on here were alarmed with performances and more important the overall results during the 2nd half of last season . I was desperate for Bilic to turn it around but he wasn't sacked due to his last 13 games lets be honest , I haven't got the stat to hand but I recall it not being pretty over 25 ish games .
Performances were poor over 30+ games.
So many rose tinted glasses due to promotion but it glossed over poor form and similar performances against championship teams as we had in the Prem.
Add in a falling out with the board over the summer and him threatening to quit in Sept, according to some reports, led to his dismissal and the need for a specialist in keeping teams up for the chairman to get the price he wants out of the club.
It’s all very short sighted I agree but the owner is trying to sell, he has to do what he feels gets him the best value for the club and being in the Prem gets him that.
It’s no wonder they went for Allardyce.
But the 3 points adrift to 11 makes no sense as if we’d stayed with Bilic, and looking at the PPG, we’d be in the same position anyway.
We haven’t had the new manager bounce....that’s about it.
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I don't disagree with that, anyone who looks back at my posts from the time would see how angry I was (mainly at the players for lacking bottle). I'm just trying to provide context when several people (not you) are saying that Allardyce shouldn't be judged on the 10 games he's been in charge for, when what's happened in those 10 games has been far worse than anyone on this forum would have envisaged beforehand.
I think theres two things going together there , those saying Allardyce needs more time would point at the players he only got a week or so ago . You've also pointed out players bottle from last season which is also in my view correct yet Bilic signed or stuck with most of them , Allardyce had to limp towards the Jan window with the same lot of bottlers .
100 % common theme there although nobody expected this to go so badly .
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BS countenance and reputation as the bluff, Jurassic manager actually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Listen to the Athletic podcast feature on him and a very different individual emerges. He was way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas.
You can do all the statistical analysis, psychology, nutritional and fitness conditioning you like, but what counts is what you do with the information. Take the most creative player and top scorer out of the starting eleven? Which statistics back that up?
This was a must win game and we've put out a team with the only aim of trying to keep a clean sheet. Diagne, showed some encouraging signs as knowing where the net is, but was given next to no help. I hardly remember any useful passes or support around him, certainly not from Grant, until Pereira came on.
Yes, we will get to judge Allardyce in due course, but we are entitled to say where he's making mistakes now, which are costing us. I would be pleased to see the back of him, but at the same time realise that as a club, you can't afford to be sacking and paying off managers and their staff every few months.
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It always mystifies me, that people seem to think football managers live in a time warp, where different rules apply.
BS has only been in place about two months..... does everyone think you just flick a switch and everything changes. How would that happen in any other business. Results are not measurably different from the previous incumbent and given the relative investment by the club compared to others, we are exactly where we should be. And BS is not even able to coach the team together due to the pandemic, so we have to be realistic.
We were defending on the edge of our box, mainly with a back 5 under Bilic and so its the proverbial "rose tinted" to believe we were measurably more expansive under him.
BS countenance and reputation as the bluff, Jurassic manager actually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Listen to the Athletic podcast feature on him and a very different individual emerges. He was way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas.
And the age thing is a red herring. Slurr Alex and Hodgson have proved you can go beyond 70 if you have the desire. I don't doubt he has sufficient money and so in some ways its laudable he wants to put his reputation on the line at this point... whatever the incentives. I suspect he just loves to be involved in the game.
Undoubtedly he has underestimated the weaknesses in the team, but let's give him a chance until the end of the season and make a sensible assessment then.
Caveat: I did not want Sam Allardyce invited back into this club. I was not particularly pro Bilic but much prefer what I was seeing then than what I see happening now
Anti Bilic crew still looking for a silver lining? Still think all Allardyce needs is more time, Still blaming the previous bloke you didn't rate despite presiding over a promotion season. Still making excuses for an alleged crook of man with 'all the experience, who is way ahead of others in terms of psychology, nutrition and fitness conditioning, statistical analysis and consistently open to new ideas', who despite all this has made not a single noticeable improvement, and is actually in the process of bringing the club down. This man who has by design or incompetence made my club a laughing stock, created a team devoid of any flair, entertainment value or confidence. Allardyce has destroyed any team spirit that might have been present and created a team who regularly look like getting beaten by 3 or more goals, even by the poorest or out of form Premier League sides.
Oh and who has also shown no ability to improve any of the players at his disposal, merely offering nothing but public criticism of some of the younger players with no previous Premier league experience.
There is only one reason Allardyce is here and that has nothing to do with helping this football club. Get rid. Surgically remove him. Today rather than tomorrow. Get in a decent professional modern progressive head coach, Not a temp from the existing lot. Give him a one year rolling contract and the rest of this season to experiment and to assess what he has got to work with on the understanding that relegation is acceptable, and to start to build for the following season. A season where he will be backed using the parachute payments as they were intended.
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Is that not exactly what has happened?
Do we not have a sprinkling of talent in the side and he has made minor tweaks to the side without a massive overhaul spending millions?
He’s done exactly what he said he would do and once the new players are bedded in we should see an upturn.
I do agree though that it’s too late.
We haven’t picked up enough points earlier in the season to give us a good platform to go from.
Sprinkling may be over egging it a bit.
A dusting maybe?
A smattering?
A hint?
An essence?
How about: We have a faint whiff of talent within the squad. That works ;D
:P
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Don’t know why you quoted me?
Us, Fulham and Sheff Utd are in the position many expected. The teams above us weren’t and were in false positions points wise. They’re game and therefore points picked up, whereas our have stayed the same regardless of who has been in charge.
That seems like a player problem to me.
My point was that under both Bilic and Allardyce we haven’t picked up enough points from August to early Jan to leave us in contention after the transfer window and the new players to have much of a chance of staying up.
Nothing has changed much in our PPG all season, at the rate it was at under Bilic and again Allardyce the points adrift would be exactly the same
Did you mean to say early Feb? If not, why aren't you including the last 5 or so weeks?
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I agree with this in parts but I wouldn’t say he failed at Everton. He took a side seriously struggling at the bottom of the table to finish 8th.
I agree, that's my point though that before us - Everton was deemed one of his biggest failures. Even up there he is held in fairly high esteem which says a lot.
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We were defending on the edge of our box, mainly with a back 5 under Bilic and so its the proverbial "rose tinted" to believe we were measurably more expansive under him.
I don't think that's true. I mean, we could argue about the word measurably but we went from averaging 41% possession to 31%, and from creating 9.6 shots on goal to 5.6, and a reduction in passing accuracy.
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I do have to keep reminding myself that we'd failed to win all but one game prior to his arrival when I read some of the posts about him...
But as you like to say, "we were still in the game", we might have only won 1 game but it felt with a bit more luck here and there we could easily have had many more points on the board. Under Sam we are barely getting out of our own half so how do we expect to win?
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In 11 games he hasn't
Improved any of the players , Gallagher has got worse. Who was one of our best players
Improved our defending.
Improved the fitness of the players, they look so unfit .
Our goal scoring has improved slightly but still poor.
Sparked any confidence into this group, and adapted a very negative must not lose attitude.
Improved our home form , it is beyond awful an average of nearly four goals per game.
Also constantly picking the wrong players, playing them on the wrong position and alleged to have had a bust up with our best player.
This coming from a manager , who's art it is to steady the ship and make teams harder to beat.
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I don't disagree with that, anyone who looks back at my posts from the time would see how angry I was (mainly at the players for lacking bottle). I'm just trying to provide context when several people (not you) are saying that Allardyce shouldn't be judged on the 10 games he's been in charge for, when what's happened in those 10 games has been far worse than anyone on this forum would have envisaged beforehand.
I guarantee that if we'd picked up better results doing those 10 games we would all be totally judging Allardyce as a success based on them. No-one would say, "well, hang on guys, he's only had 10 games, got to give him time to see if this isn't just a fluke".
For me, it's not even the results, it's the performances, we've got demonstrably worse since Allardyce came in. And even if the justification is "well, he had to work with the players he had", well, he shouldn't have been trying to get them to play a brand of football they're entirely unsuited to them then.
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I do have to keep reminding myself that we'd failed to win all but one game prior to his arrival when I read some of the posts about him...
I don't think that is accurate at all. What you need to be reminding yourself is that we have only one one game since his arrival. That's the point you seem to avoid.
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Pretty much the only way we could have sped up is by losing every game! Conceding 28 goals in 10 games is indefensible in my view. I wasn't happy with what Bilic was doing, but he probably should have been given more than 13 games in recognition of achieving promotion last season.
Exactly! That's how bad we were. The only way we could have got worse was losing every game. That is relative when you judge the next bloke.
Conceding 28 goals in 10 games is unacceptable I'd agree. I dont think anyone is saying Allardyce has done a good job so far. However 10 games, taken mid season, with a group who were struggling badly, is not typically a fair time frame to judge. I only say not typically as his job was a rescue mission and we can't get away from that, so we do have to judge him over a short period to some extent.
The extremes of the judgement given the circumstances are way over the top though, and seem to be heavily influenced by what seems like a loyalty to Bilic.
Bilic was doing a poor job so got sacked.
Allardyce is doing a poor job to date but its hard to say he has had a fair crack at the whip yet. He will get relieved of the job if it continues though. He may even get relieved anyway even if we go on some pride restoring run.
Giving Allardyce the push at the minute though doesn't really achieve anything. Anyone else at this likely becomes cannon fodder.
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I think theres two things going together there , those saying Allardyce needs more time would point at the players he only got a week or so ago . You've also pointed out players bottle from last season which is also in my view correct yet Bilic signed or stuck with most of them , Allardyce had to limp towards the Jan window with the same lot of bottlers .
100 % common theme there although nobody expected this to go so badly .
We should remember that Bilic was actually only here for 18 months, so a number of the players were already here when he arrived (e.g. Gibbs and Livermore). Few would claim that he was adequately supported by the club during the 3 transfer windows that he had.
Historically, Allardyce has generally had lots of money to spend when he's been brought in to firefight at clubs. Now, where he hasn't had much to spend, he's been found to be very sadly lacking.
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I guarantee that if we'd picked up better results doing those 10 games we would all be totally judging Allardyce as a success based on them. No-one would say, "well, hang on guys, he's only had 10 games, got to give him time to see if this isn't just a fluke".
For me, it's not even the results, it's the performances, we've got demonstrably worse since Allardyce came in. And even if the justification is "well, he had to work with the players he had", well, he shouldn't have been trying to get them to play a brand of football they're entirely unsuited to them then.
Exactly. I doubt that when they appointed him, the Board were thinking long term and didn't expect to judge him after 10 games. If that was the case, they could have saved themselves a whole load of money and waited to sack the last coach at the end of the season. No, they appointed him for one reason only, and that was to avoid relegation. The expectation would have been that improvement would happen quickly. It was poor judgement and an unrealistic expectation based on short sightedness and greed.
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I don't think that is accurate at all. What you need to be reminding yourself is that we have only one one game since his arrival. That's the point you seem to avoid.
It's entirely accurate. I don't need to remind myself of anything else.
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I dont think anyone is saying Allardyce has done a good job so far. However 10 games, taken mid season, with a group who were struggling badly, is not typically a fair time frame to judge. I only say not typically as his job was a rescue mission and we can't get away from that, so we do have to judge him over a short period to some extent.
Pretty much all mid-season managerial changes involve a rescue mission of one kind or another, so Allardyce is very far from alone in that regard. All incoming managers in these circumstances are expected to reverse clubs' fortunes, otherwise there would be no point in making mid-season changes.
When Allardyce was brought in, it was made very clear that it was with the expectation of him being able to work with and improve the current squad (which he was said by Dowling to agree with), but he's actually made it much worse, whilst very publicly pointing the finger of blame at everyone else but himself in the process.
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I guarantee that if we'd picked up better results doing those 10 games we would all be totally judging Allardyce as a success based on them. No-one would say, "well, hang on guys, he's only had 10 games, got to give him time to see if this isn't just a fluke".
For me, it's not even the results, it's the performances, we've got demonstrably worse since Allardyce came in. And even if the justification is "well, he had to work with the players he had", well, he shouldn't have been trying to get them to play a brand of football they're entirely unsuited to them then.
I dont understand the point you are trying to make. Of course if someone hits the ground running and achieves success early they will be praised. That's generally how life goes isn't it?
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What is damming is that certain fans tried to challenge cold, hard facts that we should've attained more pts under Bilic due to inaccuracies on VAR.
So take a step back and think, that's fans of WBA rejecting extra pts due to an anti Bilic agenda and a Manager they wanted rid of. It defies belief!
Bar Aston Villa in the 1st match (we were comprehensively outplayed anyway) no such decisions have gone against us since. Maybe the single positive thing Allardyce has done behind the scenes is have a massive rant at the Premier League over decisions and scared them to death, lol.
Allardyce has almost done everything wrong. And people on here see no wrong on Pereira being dropped, Livermore / Sawyers still being selected even now, and the suspicious absence of Diangana.
It's not solely about pts per game, or staying up, but progressive football. If we played like a Premier League team then I'd still back Allardyce. As it is we play like a Legaue 2 team.
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We should remember that Bilic was actually only here for 18 months, so a number of the players were already here when he arrived (e.g. Gibbs and Livermore). Few would claim that he was adequately supported by the club during the 3 transfer windows that he had.
There is also the fact that had we not been subject to some very typical 'West Brom in the premier league' officiating we would have had a few more points on the board and been closer to safety. Just for balance a few more points may also have given Allardyce a better platform, but still wish he'd jack it in and bugger off.
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Mardly or Madly reporting that he's got five games to save his job.
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It's entirely accurate. I don't need to remind myself of anything else.
It can't be entirely accurate, if you are only looking at pre- Allaredyce results, whilst ignoring post Allardyce results.
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Mardly or Madly reporting that he's got five games to save his job.
Where have you seen that?
The only comment I've heard is Joe Massi on his podcast, where he said that, in his opinion, Allardyce should be given the four games after Man U, where we play the teams around us.
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Mardly or Madly reporting that he's got five games to save his job.
....and so it begins again
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Where have you seen that?
The only comment I've heard is Joe Massi on his podcast, where he said that, in his opinion, Allardyce should be given the four games after Man U, where we play the teams around us.
Nothing on Steve Madeley's Twitter, nor The Athletic
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It can't be entirely accurate, if you are only looking at pre- Allaredyce results, whilst ignoring post Allardyce results.
My statement is entirely accurate. End of story, you cannot attribute any conditions to what I said or meant. We only won once this season under Bilić in the Premier League. Dont bother replying, your attempted gotchas aren't worth my time.
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Mardly or Madly reporting that he's got five games to save his job.
5 games during which we can only hope the club identify and with due diligence successfully approach his successor. And that the successor is not one of the currently out of work dinosaurs and has beens littering the scene at present.
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Nothing on Steve Madeley's Twitter, nor The Athletic
Opinion piece he wrote yesterday I believe, had to go a fair way down his twitter feed to find it.
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Did you mean to say early Feb? If not, why aren't you including the last 5 or so weeks?
No I meant early Jan.
Transfer window opened then. But by the time we get to early Feb most of the damage had already been done points wise.
If we’d picked up more points between Aug to early Jan the signings we had to improve us would have made much more of a difference for me to the season and a better chance of staying up
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We should remember that Bilic was actually only here for 18 months, so a number of the players were already here when he arrived (e.g. Gibbs and Livermore). Few would claim that he was adequately supported by the club during the 3 transfer windows that he had.
Historically, Allardyce has generally had lots of money to spend when he's been brought in to firefight at clubs. Now, where he hasn't had much to spend, he's been found to be very sadly lacking.
I think Bilic was well supported in his first window , very very few managers in the 2nd tier could bring in Pereira , Diang or Austin .....that a big chunk of change for that level in wages alone . 2nd window I don't think he needed that much but Grosicki was drafted in by Dowling , treated poorly by Bilic we both agree but thats another topic .
We then come to the final window , I've stated before my feeling Bilic needed more funds yet what he did insist on in Krov , Ivanovic and Grant has been a awful trio of deals so far .
I'm less than convinced Ajeti at Celtic or the big forward from Lazio would have proved much better value given both have struggled this season . I cannot accept over 3 windows the line Bilic wasn't backed , end of the day that was a hell of a squad for the 2nd tier .
I'm not sure what dates Allardyce took over the other clubs in relation to the Jan window but it appears he thought we get through until then which is either arrogance , confidence or naive . We know ( and he should have ) that several of this squad have been pulling the wool over the eyes of various managers for 3 or 4 seasons now .
While yes at other clubs he has had decent money he must got the original players defending better and organised as well , I just get the sense somethings missing ....he doesn't look quite as he once did in this situation . Could be the 2021 version of Ron Saunders .
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My statement is entirely accurate. End of story, you cannot attribute any conditions to what I said or meant. We only won once this season under Bilić in the Premier League. Dont bother replying, your attempted gotchas aren't worth my time.
I'm not attempting any "gotchas". The points I'm making aren't in any way personal, any more than any other poster with whom I disagree. What I'm trying to do is debate the issues. In this case, that what you said was not balanced by looking at both sets of results. Really no need to get tetchy.
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People saying Allardyce needs to be given more time to be judged...
In 'normal' circumstances I'd completely agree. 11 games is too soon to be fairly judging a manager in relation to the overall job they'd be expected to do whilst Albion manager.
The issue with Allardyce is he was bought in specifically for a 25 game run, so we're already pretty much half way through his tenure here. In that respect, he does need to be judged on 11 games as it's around 45% of his time here.
Is that unfair on Allardyce? Well again, not really. He has marketed himself as a survival specialist and in the last 5 years since England has taken jobs exclusively in that capacity. He has not interest in the long terms, so short term is how he will be judged.
Forget styles of play, and how attractive the football is or isn't to watch as he's only ever going to be here for a few months. He should be judged on results, and in that respect he has failed miserably.
I've seen complaints about people referring back to Bilic. I think in the majority of cases this is because it's the only thing we have to measure Allardyce against. If Allardyce had taken over a team that had played 10 lost 10 and conceded 40 goals then theres a case to make he's actually doing a good job. If he had 5 or 6 points and we had conceded 15 goals since his arrival then he's probably doing a neutral job. Now I appreciate the ppg is similar under both, but a lot of games we were at least competitive under Bilic and didn't get the rub of the green with decisions. A lot of the players were also adapting to the league and there were signs of small improvements in that regard. In terms of KPI's from Bilic to Allardyce have we improved? Again, this is as a measure to judge Allardyce, not to talk about Bilic. A defence of Allardyce is often along the lines of 'the team is rubbish what can he do'. I accept this, but again, I think he is doing actively worse than Bilic was, and in particular defensively which worryingly is meant to be his main strength.
PPG - Worse (but very marginally)
Defensively - Far worse (supposedly his strength)
Overall performances - Worse
In Bilic last 11 games
Points - 7
F - 8
A - 18
GD - -10
0 or 1 conceded in game - 6
1 goal defeats - 3
4+ conceded in a game - 1 (with 10 men for 60 mins, 1-1 with 11 v 11)
Allardyce first 11 games
Points - 5 (plus a pen defeat to a league 1 side)
F - 10
A - 27
GD - -17
0 or 1 conceded in game - 1
1 goal defeats - 2
4+ conceded in a game - 3
I'd also say we had poor decisions go against us in the games (from memory) against Everton, Chelsea, Utd (twice) & Palace, all of which came with the games in the balance. So far with Allardyce the only one I can think of is Konsa getting away with a red against Villa (and we were so poor in that game before the red)
Team selections are becoming increasingly desperate/baffling. And now theres rumours (and I appreciate they are just rumours) that our best 2 players have already fallen out with him. Both will be absolute crucial in our plans for next season. Even if Pereira is to be sold, we're knocking anything between £5m-£10m off his value if not properly marketed & used from now until May. Used correctly and Peirera is a player just been nominated for player of the month and with 1 player who has scored more goals than him this year. Alternatively he's a liability defensively, whose not as good as Snodgrass and wants out.
The truth is with our without Allardyce the squad we have is in the worst 3 in the league, so it would take over performance from either Bilic/Allardyce, or the players, or Dowling in the market to unearth some gems to give us a chance of survival. To date, I'd argue all 4 parties have failed on the front. We are not in the bottom 3 because of Allardyce, and he wont be solely responsible for us going down. However, he wont be here next year when we do go down, so will only be judged on this season, and to date (for me) he's done incredibly poorly on every measure.
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People saying Allardyce needs to be given more time to be judged...
In 'normal' circumstances I'd completely agree. 11 games is too soon to be fairly judging a manager in relation to the overall job they'd be expected to do whilst Albion manager.
The issue with Allardyce is he was bought in specifically for a 25 game run, so we're already pretty much half way through his tenure here. In that respect, he does need to be judged on 11 games as it's around 45% of his time here.
Is that unfair on Allardyce? Well again, not really. He has marketed himself as a survival specialist and in the last 5 years since England has taken jobs exclusively in that capacity. He has not interest in the long terms, so short term is how he will be judged.
Forget styles of play, and how attractive the football is or isn't to watch as he's only ever going to be here for a few months. He should be judged on results, and in that respect he has failed miserably.
I've seen complaints about people referring back to Bilic. I think in the majority of cases this is because it's the only thing we have to measure Allardyce against. If Allardyce had taken over a team that had played 10 lost 10 and conceded 40 goals then theres a case to make he's actually doing a good job. If he had 5 or 6 points and we had conceded 15 goals since his arrival then he's probably doing a neutral job. Now I appreciate the ppg is similar under both, but a lot of games we were at least competitive under Bilic and didn't get the rub of the green with decisions. A lot of the players were also adapting to the league and there were signs of small improvements in that regard. In terms of KPI's from Bilic to Allardyce have we improved? Again, this is as a measure to judge Allardyce, not to talk about Bilic. A defence of Allardyce is often along the lines of 'the team is rubbish what can he do'. I accept this, but again, I think he is doing actively worse than Bilic was, and in particular defensively which worryingly is meant to be his main strength.
PPG - Worse (but very marginally)
Defensively - Far worse (supposedly his strength)
Overall performances - Worse
In Bilic last 11 games
Points - 7
F - 8
A - 18
GD - -10
0 or 1 conceded in game - 6
1 goal defeats - 3
4+ conceded in a game - 1 (with 10 men for 60 mins, 1-1 with 11 v 11)
Allardyce first 11 games
Points - 5 (plus a pen defeat to a league 1 side)
F - 10
A - 27
GD - -17
0 or 1 conceded in game - 1
1 goal defeats - 2
4+ conceded in a game - 3
I'd also say we had poor decisions go against us in the games (from memory) against Everton, Chelsea, Utd (twice) & Palace, all of which came with the games in the balance. So far with Allardyce the only one I can think of is Konsa getting away with a red against Villa (and we were so poor in that game before the red)
Team selections are becoming increasingly desperate/baffling. And now theres rumours (and I appreciate they are just rumours) that our best 2 players have already fallen out with him. Both will be absolute crucial in our plans for next season. Even if Pereira is to be sold, we're knocking anything between £5m-£10m off his value if not properly marketed & used from now until May. Used correctly and Peirera is a player just been nominated for player of the month and with 1 player who has scored more goals than him this year. Alternatively he's a liability defensively, whose not as good as Snodgrass and wants out.
The truth is with our without Allardyce the squad we have is in the worst 3 in the league, so it would take over performance from either Bilic/Allardyce, or the players, or Dowling in the market to unearth some gems to give us a chance of survival. To date, I'd argue all 4 parties have failed on the front. We are not in the bottom 3 because of Allardyce, and he wont be solely responsible for us going down. However, he wont be here next year when we do go down, so will only be judged on this season, and to date (for me) he's done incredibly poorly on every measure.
You've clearly put a great amount of time and thought into your post. Excellent analysis in my opinion.
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People saying Allardyce needs to be given more time to be judged...
In 'normal' circumstances I'd completely agree. 11 games is too soon to be fairly judging a manager in relation to the overall job they'd be expected to do whilst Albion manager.
The issue with Allardyce is he was bought in specifically for a 25 game run, so we're already pretty much half way through his tenure here. In that respect, he does need to be judged on 11 games as it's around 45% of his time here.
Is that unfair on Allardyce? Well again, not really. He has marketed himself as a survival specialist and in the last 5 years since England has taken jobs exclusively in that capacity. He has not interest in the long terms, so short term is how he will be judged.
Forget styles of play, and how attractive the football is or isn't to watch as he's only ever going to be here for a few months. He should be judged on results, and in that respect he has failed miserably.
I've seen complaints about people referring back to Bilic. I think in the majority of cases this is because it's the only thing we have to measure Allardyce against. If Allardyce had taken over a team that had played 10 lost 10 and conceded 40 goals then theres a case to make he's actually doing a good job. If he had 5 or 6 points and we had conceded 15 goals since his arrival then he's probably doing a neutral job. Now I appreciate the ppg is similar under both, but a lot of games we were at least competitive under Bilic and didn't get the rub of the green with decisions. A lot of the players were also adapting to the league and there were signs of small improvements in that regard. In terms of KPI's from Bilic to Allardyce have we improved? Again, this is as a measure to judge Allardyce, not to talk about Bilic. A defence of Allardyce is often along the lines of 'the team is rubbish what can he do'. I accept this, but again, I think he is doing actively worse than Bilic was, and in particular defensively which worryingly is meant to be his main strength.
PPG - Worse (but very marginally)
Defensively - Far worse (supposedly his strength)
Overall performances - Worse
In Bilic last 11 games
Points - 7
F - 8
A - 18
GD - -10
0 or 1 conceded in game - 6
1 goal defeats - 3
4+ conceded in a game - 1 (with 10 men for 60 mins, 1-1 with 11 v 11)
Allardyce first 11 games
Points - 5 (plus a pen defeat to a league 1 side)
F - 10
A - 27
GD - -17
0 or 1 conceded in game - 1
1 goal defeats - 2
4+ conceded in a game - 3
I'd also say we had poor decisions go against us in the games (from memory) against Everton, Chelsea, Utd (twice) & Palace, all of which came with the games in the balance. So far with Allardyce the only one I can think of is Konsa getting away with a red against Villa (and we were so poor in that game before the red)
Team selections are becoming increasingly desperate/baffling. And now theres rumours (and I appreciate they are just rumours) that our best 2 players have already fallen out with him. Both will be absolute crucial in our plans for next season. Even if Pereira is to be sold, we're knocking anything between £5m-£10m off his value if not properly marketed & used from now until May. Used correctly and Peirera is a player just been nominated for player of the month and with 1 player who has scored more goals than him this year. Alternatively he's a liability defensively, whose not as good as Snodgrass and wants out.
The truth is with our without Allardyce the squad we have is in the worst 3 in the league, so it would take over performance from either Bilic/Allardyce, or the players, or Dowling in the market to unearth some gems to give us a chance of survival. To date, I'd argue all 4 parties have failed on the front. We are not in the bottom 3 because of Allardyce, and he wont be solely responsible for us going down. However, he wont be here next year when we do go down, so will only be judged on this season, and to date (for me) he's done incredibly poorly on every measure.
That sadly is a very fair post , if the season ended Today I don't think anybody walks away without a slice of blame . Its been a woeful season on and off the pitch and the only glimmer of hope is the players suddenly adapt to Allardyce and the new players make a huge difference . Very unlikely at this point but fair play to those that keep that stance .
Frankly I just want this season finished as painless as possible .
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Kudos to Astle1968 for telling it like it is.
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Kudos to Astle1968 for telling it like it is.
Yes, it is very much looking like sticking with Bilic (possibly till he walked) and taking relegation like Norwich might have been a better option
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Opinion piece he wrote yesterday I believe, had to go a fair way down his twitter feed to find it.
Oh, it's his piece from yesterday. I read that, and I don't believe it ever said something as bold as "five games to save his job".
"So now, as Allardyce faces a clash with Manchester United followed by four games against bottom-half sides that represent his final realistic chance to change the course of Albion’s season, the chances of the Pardew parallels being extended cannot be ignored.
Like Pardew’s, Allardyce’s contract is thought to contain a clause allowing an early break at the end of his first season.
Similarly to the summer of 2018, it is difficult to see how the relationship can extend beyond the summer unless things improve considerably. Should Albion be cut adrift by mid-March, when their run of “easier†fixtures ends, some big decisions must be taken.
Stick with Allardyce in what would be an almost hopeless cause or make an early change and begin looking to the future? It is not a decision Albion envisaged when they turned to one of football’s most reliable firefighters in their hour of need.
But it is one that might not be too far away."
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Well thought out and laid out post Astle1968.
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Great post Astle 68 - very realistic and well thought out
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At the end of the day we want West Bromwich Albion to be successful. I assume the majority of fans want us to win irrelevant of who’s the manager. I have never understood wanting their team to lose to get rid of a manager. I want Albion to win every game.
In terms of Allardyce can’t we admit he has previously been a successful manager and yet for us have been really poor. Most managers have spells when they struggle. Context, timing and the situation of the club are always important factors.
When Moyes took the West Ham job the fans went crazy now look at them. Moyes isn’t a bad manager. He was great at Everton, found it hard at Utd, terrible at Sunderland and Real Sociedad and now doing well at West Ham.
Sam is not a bad manager but for us so far he has been awful.
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At the end of the day we want West Bromwich Albion to be successful. I assume the majority of fans want us to win irrelevant of who’s the manager. I have never understood wanting their team to lose to get rid of a manager. I want Albion to win every game.
In terms of Allardyce can’t we admit he has previously been a successful manager and yet for us have been really poor. Most managers have spells when they struggle. Context, timing and the situation of the club are always important factors.
When Moyes took the West Ham job the fans went crazy now look at them. Moyes isn’t a bad manager. He was great at Everton, found it hard at Utd, terrible at Sunderland and Real Sociedad and now doing well at West Ham.
Sam is not a bad manager but for us so far he has been awful.
Another well balanced post , as Admin its great to see after a few weeks full of friction .
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At the end of the day we want West Bromwich Albion to be successful. I assume the majority of fans want us to win irrelevant of who’s the manager. I have never understood wanting their team to lose to get rid of a manager. I want Albion to win every game.
In terms of Allardyce can’t we admit he has previously been a successful manager and yet for us have been really poor. Most managers have spells when they struggle. Context, timing and the situation of the club are always important factors.
When Moyes took the West Ham job the fans went crazy now look at them. Moyes isn’t a bad manager. He was great at Everton, found it hard at Utd, terrible at Sunderland and Real Sociedad and now doing well at West Ham.
Sam is not a bad manager but for us so far he has been awful.
You can actually add Pardew to that too, who has a better win percentage than Allardyce in his career. For whatever reason, more than our fair share of managers have their worst spells when they're with us... >:(
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At the end of the day we want West Bromwich Albion to be successful. I assume the majority of fans want us to win irrelevant of who’s the manager. I have never understood wanting their team to lose to get rid of a manager. I want Albion to win every game.
In terms of Allardyce can’t we admit he has previously been a successful manager and yet for us have been really poor. Most managers have spells when they struggle. Context, timing and the situation of the club are always important factors.
When Moyes took the West Ham job the fans went crazy now look at them. Moyes isn’t a bad manager. He was great at Everton, found it hard at Utd, terrible at Sunderland and Real Sociedad and now doing well at West Ham.
Sam is not a bad manager but for us so far he has been awful.
This is exactly the point many of us have been making. He's not a 'dinosaur', he just hasnt worked here as we hoped.
Great post though
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Personally I would like to see him build a side here.
Look a bit more solid in places no doubt.
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Personally I would like to see him build a side here.
Look a bit more solid in places no doubt.
I'd wait until after seeing the new midfield, but if it works out I couldn't agree more. Been in the door what 6 weeks, sorted out the most glaring weakness in the squad for an outlay of 430k. An area of the pitch completely ignored for 18 months.
Give him the summer to sort out the back 5.
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I'm not sure, I dont think i see a situation where I want him to stay personally. Although if their was a massive upturn, I could be convinced. In the summer he would need to sort the midfield again too.
AVM will go back and if Yokuslu steps up competently another prem club will snap him up.
I know the Pereira / Diangana story is just a rumour at this stage but if there is something going on in the background, I think they club will want to protect those assets too.
The relegated remaining after relegation will look a lot like the one that got promoted.
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I'd wait until after seeing the new midfield, but if it works out I couldn't agree more. Been in the door what 6 weeks, sorted out the most glaring weakness in the squad for an outlay of 430k. An area of the pitch completely ignored for 18 months.
Give him the summer to sort out the back 5.
Can't see many fans being in agreement with that Jacko.
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I'd wait until after seeing the new midfield, but if it works out I couldn't agree more. Been in the door what 6 weeks, sorted out the most glaring weakness in the squad for an outlay of 430k. An area of the pitch completely ignored for 18 months.
Give him the summer to sort out the back 5.
On the one hand you advise waiting to see how the new midfield works out. and in the next sentence you claim he has sorted out the most glaring weakness in the team, presumably the midfield. So should we wait to see how it works out, or has it already been sorted?
Oh, and been in the door just over 8 weeks now.
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He hasn't sorted anything out or least ways nothing that won't unravel immediately once we are relegated. All he has done is saddle us with an aging Snodgrass on a relatively large wage in the Championship stuff sorted out zero.
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Can't see many fans being in agreement with that Jacko.
Don't really care mate, the usual pile on has already commenced over semantics of all things... ;D
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I think it's unfair to judge Allardyce at the moment. He's been trying to play his brand of football with a squad of players that are by nature not the type to play that way.
He's brought in a few players in the window but it's not nearly enough really. Allardyce really should be given the summer and next season to judge him fairly.
The problem I have with that is that Allardyce splits the fan base and because of that there is no togetherness instead constant point scoring and arguments amongst fans which leads to a toxic situation like we had under Pardew and to an extent Pulis before him.
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Personally I'm against keeping Allardyce for a number of reasons. However the most important thing is that we have some sort of long term plan in place for next season and a prepared to back it.
It's easy to look back to Ashworth as if he was some sort of magic wand, but we switched managers and leagues under him relatively regularly, but it was always clear to see what we attempting to do, even if it didn't always come off.
A worry with keeping Allardyce is that if we didn't get off to a great start next season he would almost certainly be gone after 10 games. We've seen Bournemouth and Watford make that decision this season at the first sign of even minor danger of missing out on promotion and we did the same with Moore. With Allardyce already under a degree of pressure which will only increase each week performances don't improve, he won't have enough credit in the bank to survive any blips, especially if fans are allowed back in by September.
I'd love to see a fresh slate (or as fresh as it can be assuming Dowling and Lai remain) and a lot of the squad moved on. Bring in a project manager, similar to how Swansea have done with Cooper and back him over 2 years in the Championship, even if we are 14th in December next season.
Since Peace decided to sell up and appointed Pulis (which I don't think he would have ever done if he wasn't looking to sell) we've never thought more than 1 season ahead at a time, and it's contributed greatly to our current position.
Personally, I hope it isn't Allardyce even if results do pick up from now until May. I don't like his style of play even if results are ok, I don't like him as a person, and I don't think he is a long term manager which is what we desperately need. However, if he does stay on next season (which I can't see) then even though part of me would want him sacked, I think it's vital he is given the season and not turfed out after a poor run over 5 or 6 games.
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Appointing Allardyce in the Premier League was a free hit. If it does not work we probably haven't lost anything that we wouldn't have lost anyway. As I'm not going to matches I haven't had to make any additional effort or expense to watch it so I'm relatively sanguine about it, I'd be less happy if I was watching it live.
Next season is a different. If he stays then it is promotion or bust the only reason for putting up with him would be promotion and given that it is a short term fix it either works or doesn't. He will be under the gun the whole time. As soon as promotion is in any doubt he has to go to give the next short term fix a chance to get promotion.
We have to get off this hamster wheel the solution is not a bigger hamster.
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Appointing Allardyce in the Premier League was a free hit. If it does not work we probably haven't lost anything that we wouldn't have lost anyway. As I'm not going to matches I haven't had to make any additional effort or expense to watch it so I'm relatively sanguine about it, I'd be less happy if I was watching it live.
Next season is a different. If he stays then it is promotion or bust the only reason for putting up with him would be promotion and given that it is a short term fix it either works or doesn't. He will be under the gun the whole time. As soon as promotion is in any doubt he has to go to give the next short term fix a chance to get promotion.
We have to get off this hamster wheel the solution is not a bigger hamster.
Spot on. Ever since Dan Ashworth left this club looks at the next 6 months and no further. Every single decision the club makes is done with only the next 6 months in mind, from constant switching of the head coach and therefore the style of play, player recruitment, not selling/releasing players who have hit their peak, (mis)management of the development squad, not diversifying our revenue streams, lack of investment in infrastructure, no thought about how we grow the fanbase.
We’ve now got Allardyce, spent a load of wasted wages on players he wanted who will be of no use next season and switched from an attacking style of play back to an extremely negative one. I can guarantee it now, next season will be under a new head coach, completely different style of play, we’ll make a bunch of decent Championship signings who won’t be good enough should we get promoted again, probably a few good players on loan who we either can’t afford to sign permanently or who will cost our whole transfer budget if we get promoted - and we’re back to squad one.
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the sooner hes gone the better, he will never be accepted by all of us. we need to start again, rebuild from scratch.i am quite happy to stay in the lower leagues for a while, we all know the premier league is biased and possibly bent
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the sooner hes gone the better, he will never be accepted by all of us. we need to start again, rebuild from scratch.i am quite happy to stay in the lower leagues for a while, we all know the premier league is biased and possibly bent
Well thats every manager ever. They all have a time limit.
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Don't really care mate, the usual pile on has already commenced over semantics of all things... ;D
No semantics from me Jacko, I agree with it ;)
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Well thats every manager ever.
It is yeah but some more and to a larger extent than others.
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It is yeah but some more and to a larger extent than others.
True but thats nitspicking ;D If people don't like a manager fine then say so. We are all entitled to our opinions just don't hide behind phrases and emotions of a group feeling that doesn't exist.
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I'd wait until after seeing the new midfield, but if it works out I couldn't agree more. Been in the door what 6 weeks, sorted out the most glaring weakness in the squad for an outlay of 430k. An area of the pitch completely ignored for 18 months.
Give him the summer to sort out the back 5.
Need to wait 10 games before we judge the midfield being any kind of improvement.
Most glaring weakness of the squad is the back 5, even before the midfield for me. He's not even got close to that - hence conceding for fun still.
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Need to wait 10 games before we judge the midfield being any kind of improvement.
Most glaring weakness of the squad is the back 5, even before the midfield for me. He's not even got close to that - hence conceding for fun still.
More likely is that as soon as we get an even half decent performance, the new midfield will be hailed as an Allardyce masterstroke.
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Need to wait 10 games before we judge the midfield being any kind of improvement.
Most glaring weakness of the squad is the back 5, even before the midfield for me. He's not even got close to that - hence conceding for fun still.
We are weak at the back as other teams are running through our midfield for fun, so he appears to have made that more robust with the signings. If our defence are not so busy over the next few games because of this then happy days!
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Need to wait 10 games before we judge the midfield being any kind of improvement.
Most glaring weakness of the squad is the back 5, even before the midfield for me. He's not even got close to that - hence conceding for fun still.
We really don't. It will become apparent after a couple games about 15 minutes whether they're better than Livermore, Sawyers etc.
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More likely is that as soon as we get an even half decent performance, the new midfield will be hailed as an Allardyce masterstroke.
Imagine if Yokuslu performs like a colossus on Sunday and we get a win??
There'll be a few on here turning quicker than a glass of milk in the desert! (myself included, I'm incredibly fickle :))
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We really don't. It will become apparent after a couple games about 15 minutes whether they're better than Livermore, Sawyers etc.
It's hard to believe they can be any worse than those two.
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More likely is that as soon as we get an even half decent performance, the new midfield will be hailed as an Allardyce masterstroke.
If we get a few decent performances and look stronger due to that then absolutely it will be
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At the end of this season we will need 2 first choice full backs, a DCM and a CF. Exactly the same as we needed at the start of Bilic reign and what we needed at the start of this season. Not sure how that equates to Allardyce being our downfall when he's spent less than 500k in a 1 month transfer window.
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Imagine if Yokuslu performs like a colossus on Sunday and we get a win??
There'll be a few on here turning quicker than a glass of milk in the desert! (myself included, I'm incredibly fickle :))
Really hope this happens. If the temporary half repair patch up has some effect and we go on a run to the end of the season, scoring goals and winning games, I will be a much happier bunny, but will still want rid of Allardyce. Don't much care if we stay up or go down, just want some entertainment and evidence of future medium to long term planning. At the end of the season we will still need a head coach with some sort of half life, and will be without any of the 'new improved midfield and front man' I will never be an Allardyce fan but will always be a West Brom fan. Just as fickle as the next man but when something stinks I can often smell it and my olfactory senses are tingling.
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Football is a matter of opinion.
If he picks O'Shea some might prefer Furlong,if he picks Furlong some might prefer O'Shea
if he picks Gibbs some might prefer Towsend,if he picks Townsend some might prefer Gibbs
but If he picks Sawyers many people would rather he picked any other member of the squad,
Can't he see this? with Sawyers it is almost going on the pitch with 10men and in fact it is worse than that because other members of the team see his shirt and leave it to him to do the necessary which he invariably fails to do.
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I think it's unfair to judge Allardyce at the moment. He's been trying to play his brand of football with a squad of players that are by nature not the type to play that way.
He's brought in a few players in the window but it's not nearly enough really. Allardyce really should be given the summer and next season to judge him fairly.
The problem I have with that is that Allardyce splits the fan base and because of that there is no togetherness instead constant point scoring and arguments amongst fans which leads to a toxic situation like we had under Pardew and to an extent Pulis before him.
that first paragraph is exactly why you judge him. Its STUPID doing that.
Pulis = Coward
Pardew = Arrogance personified
Allardyce = Stupid
Dowling = consistent (bad)
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Whats Bilic then?
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that first paragraph is exactly why you judge him. Its STUPID doing that.
Pulis = Coward
Pardew = Arrogance personified
Allardyce = Stupid
Dowling = consistent (bad)
Mowbray - Naive
RDM - Limited
Hodgson - Negative
Clarke - Unable to build anything himself
Mel - Disinterested
Irvine - Out of his depth
Moore - Gullible
Bilić - No substance
We can apply negative connotations to all our managers.
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We are weak at the back as other teams are running through our midfield for fun, so he appears to have made that more robust with the signings. If our defence are not so busy over the next few games because of this then happy days!
Under Sam we don't have a midfield for them to run through, we have 2 banks of defenders on the edge of our own box. We concede far too many goals from the defence not being alert, that's nothing to do with the midfield.
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Whats Bilic then?
Victim
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Victim
Good lord :o
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Good lord :o
No I wouldn't go as far as "Good lord Bilic", thats a bit weird really fella!
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Victim
Genuinely amazed by this.
The only victims of the last 9 months of Bilić reign are the fans.
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No I wouldn't go as far as "Good lord Bilic", thats a bit weird really fella!
Well you said he's a victim so he's almost like a martyr to his beliefs so theres slight religious overlap there and especially with the way some Albion fans see Bilic.
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Whats Bilic then?
Employed by someone else.
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We made it clear when Allardyce took over, this thread is to discuss him - there's a thread on the second page of the General Football forum if people want to talk about Bilic.
Obviously sometimes (or, quite often) comparisons are drawn, which is fine, but I suggest people take the current conversation elsewhere if you want to discuss if Bilic was treated fairly or not.
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Appointing Allardyce in the Premier League was a free hit. If it does not work we probably haven't lost anything that we wouldn't have lost anyway. As I'm not going to matches I haven't had to make any additional effort or expense to watch it so I'm relatively sanguine about it, I'd be less happy if I was watching it live.
Next season is a different. If he stays then it is promotion or bust the only reason for putting up with him would be promotion and given that it is a short term fix it either works or doesn't. He will be under the gun the whole time. As soon as promotion is in any doubt he has to go to give the next short term fix a chance to get promotion.
We have to get off this hamster wheel the solution is not a bigger hamster.
Love the hamster wheel comparison, have you been on a management training course? :)
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If people don't like a manager fine then say so.
Well I don't like my manager, he's a twit.
I am self-employed though, so I'm allowed to say that.
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We made it clear when Allardyce took over, this thread is to discuss him - there's a thread on the second page of the General Football forum if people want to talk about Bilic.
Obviously sometimes (or, quite often) comparisons are drawn, which is fine, but I suggest people take the current conversation elsewhere if you want to discuss if Bilic was treated fairly or not.
received and understood !
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Well I don't like my manager, he's a twit.
I am self-employed though, so I'm allowed to say that.
;D
Give him a kick in the nuts mate
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There’s no doubt the new midfield will improve us
However the fact remains, when we needed to turn up in the last few weeks - we didn’t
That’s both on the manager for his set up and selections, and the players for not ‘wanting’ it
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After 8 weeks theres not been a single improvement anywhere under Allardyce.
Are picking up more points? No
Are we scoring more? No
Are we conceding more? Yes
Are we more organised? No
Do the players look fitter? No
These are the only things that mattered when he was appointed and he's failed to deliver.
Performances don't matter in our situation only points.
If these points are wrong why am I mistaken.
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After 8 weeks theres not been a single improvement anywhere under Allardyce.
Are picking up more points? No
Are we scoring more? No
Are we conceding more? Yes
Are we more organised? No
Do the players look fitter? No
These are the only things that mattered when he was appointed and he's failed to deliver.
Performances don't matter in our situation only points.
If these points are wrong why am I mistaken.
I put it out on another thread. We have not lost (as yet!) 9-0 twice nor 1-4 as the Scouse did. Yet cannot put a decent result up v our peers. I point at the players they need to grow a pair.
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Allardyce says a lot of the goals conceded could have been prevented at source, believing his players need to press harder and spot danger earlier.
But if the defence is under nearly non-stop pressure for 90 minutes, its expecting a lot for every single run and through pass to be tracked. The defence need to be given periods of respite. They need outlets into the midfield, who are able to keep possession and give the defence a chance to recover and re-group. Long balls to a distant striker or into the channels mean instant loss of posession and the defence are under pressure again.
We need to go up the pitch as a unit and force the opposition back into their own half.
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;D
Give him a kick in the nuts mate
I usually have to pay a lady to do that for me!
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Allardyce the horse runs at Naas today (2.15). Currently best priced 33/1 if anyone wants to back him.
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Allardyce the horse runs at Naas today (2.15). Currently best priced 33/1 if anyone wants to back him.
About the same price for a win for us tomorrow.... :(
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Allardyce the horse runs at Naas today (2.15). Currently best priced 33/1 if anyone wants to back him.
Can we swap with the horse?
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Allardyce the horse runs at Naas today (2.15). Currently best priced 33/1 if anyone wants to back him.
And the trainer is called Grady ;D
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And the trainer is called Grady ;D
A horse for a donkey, isn't a fair swop! that's not very nice! but I couldn't resist.
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Allardyce the horse finished seventh beaten 34 lengths at 40/1.
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Allardyce the horse finished seventh beaten 34 lengths at 40/1.
7th in the Prem next season under his stewardship 34 points off the eventual winners ;)
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7th in the Prem next season under his stewardship 34 points off the eventual winners ;)
With 4-0 wins against the Vile and the Dingles.
I'll take that. 😀
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Allardyce the horse finished seventh beaten 34 lengths at 40/1.
I'm surprised it got out of its own box.
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Was it chewing gum?
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Thought Sam made the right decision taking Peltier off today. We still sit too deep at times but when we pushed up a bit today we looked a lot better. Best game under Sam for me.
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Mindset of players need to change when we get in front early, sat off man ure and where playing too deep in first half. Stopped doing what was creating problems for them midfield needed to be braver on ball in first 45 minutes.
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For me this was the first game when we can say it was Sam’s team with the availability of the 4 players he has signed. I am pretty positive about today overall.
I just hope we get some positive results between now and the end of the season. It won’t be enough to keep us up but hopefully we get a set way of playing and a positive mentality to take into next year.
I just hope Sam stays for the full 18m of the contract and takes us back into the PL.
I think if we got Sam in at the start of the season and got him involved in recruitment we would of actually had a shot at stopping up.
If we can finish 18th, on our budget, I would treat that as a ‘positive’ season.
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Thought Sam made the right decision taking Peltier off today. We still sit too deep at times but when we pushed up a bit today we looked a lot better. Best game under Sam for me.
He went off injured. Agree with other points you make.
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He went off injured. Agree with other points you make.
Was Peltier injured? I thought SA had seen what 99% of us had seen that Peltier just doesn't cut it at this level. I don't think I've ever seen him go forward and cross a ball into the box.
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I found it interesting in Sam's post match bit on Youtube he didn't have another go in public about our defending for the Utd goal calling it a great goal . It was a good hit but the defending around him was very poor , our only bad bit of defending all goal really .
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I take it he did ok then as there is only 6 posts on this thread today ;D
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I take it he did ok then as there is only 6 posts on this thread today ;D
He nearly undone all the hard working by bringing on Livermore. We were much better today still pretty deep for large parts of the game.
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No- hes the reason why the clubs in the doo doo! He's been here 2 months and spent half a million. How dare he!
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Was Peltier injured? I thought SA had seen what 99% of us had seen that Peltier just doesn't cut it at this level. I don't think I've ever seen him go forward and cross a ball into the box.
Not sure then but it was said on Sky he was injured.
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He went off injured. Agree with other points you make.
I wasn't sure, I thought that was just the commentators guessing because he went down holding his a ankle about 10 mins before half time.
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Not sure then but it was said on Sky he was injured.
He was ball thrown out by SJ. Carried on after. A knock?
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For me this was the first game when we can say it was Sam’s team with the availability of the 4 players he has signed. I am pretty positive about today overall.
I just hope we get some positive results between now and the end of the season. It won’t be enough to keep us up but hopefully we get a set way of playing and a positive mentality to take into next year.
I just hope Sam stays for the full 18m of the contract and takes us back into the PL.
I think if we got Sam in at the start of the season and got him involved in recruitment we would of actually had a shot at stopping up.
If we can finish 18th, on our budget, I would treat that as a ‘positive’ season.
I agree, I think our best chance of bouncing straight back up has to be Sam - he likes his dosh and he won't get his bonus for keeping us up, so offer him the same if he gets us back up.
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No- hes the reason why the clubs in the doo doo! He's been here 2 months and spent half a million. How dare he!
Gazberg, I really, really didn't like his appointment at first - then I thought come on, settle down and get behind him. Then we seemed to just keep shipping goals and everyone was saying 'this squad's not good enough'. But Sam's additions are kicking in now it seems and he's got the whole squad playing as a team. Yesterday wasn't perfect but it was excellent compared to the rest of the season and I enjoyed it immensely.
I know yesterday could yet be a flash in the pan but I can't help but think he's got them clicking now and I'm actually interested again in seeing how much more we can achieve before the drop.
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I agree, I think our best chance of bouncing straight back up has to be Sam - he likes his dosh and he won't get his bonus for keeping us up, so offer him the same if he gets us back up.
No thanks, he's no better than what went before and at least we played with a bit of attacking verve for most of last year. Wouldn't want to see us lining up on the edge of our box for Lincoln away.
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Gazberg, I really, really didn't like his appointment at first - then I thought come on, settle down and get behind him. Then we seemed to just keep shipping goals and everyone was saying 'this squad's not good enough'. But Sam's additions are kicking in now it seems and he's got the whole squad playing as a team. Yesterday wasn't perfect but it was excellent compared to the rest of the season and I enjoyed it immensely.
I know yesterday could yet be a flash in the pan but I can't help but think he's got them clicking now and I'm actually interested again in seeing how much more we can achieve before the drop.
I don't particularly like the bloke one way or the other and yes when he was using Bilic squad it was not good at all but there's no doubt in my mind he will beat Bilic PPG, whether that's enough to stay up now is doubtful is a whole different kettle of fish.
I thought the board would move quicker like they did with the Snodgrass deal but hey ho.
Some.of the things said and thrown at him are nothing short of disgraceful though. When he was appointed I was saw the comments on Twitter etc and felt ashamed to be an Albion fan. The epitome of an arrogant fanbase indeed.
The club's problems go way deeper than Allardyce and Bilic for that matter.
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Lets not beat about the bush here.
He would have needed at least 8 players in from the start of the quality and attitude he has brought in to give us a good chance of staying up.
As it is it will be a miracle if he does I think it is to late.
At least if we play like we did Sunday we can have a bit of pride and hope for next season.
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The players brought in during January have been good additions and better than what we had before. How much of that you attribute to SA and how much to LD is open to debate.
The only thing I'd say is that we should've got in a central midfielder in early January. There were multiple low cost signings out there that would've resolved the biggest problem in Livermore. As it is its taken AMN and Yokuslu 6 weeks to get up and running. We have had a lot of games in those 6 weeks.
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Lets not beat about the bush here.
He would have needed at least 8 players in from the start of the quality and attitude he has brought in to give us a good chance of staying up.
As it is it will be a miracle if he does I think it is to late.
At least if we play like we did Sunday we can have a bit of pride and hope for next season.
Agreed, Gloster. All I'm asking right now.
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We have had 2 seasons to bring in DM at least. Should have had one in place when Yacob was leaving. I would say SA has had a lot of say who we brought in.
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That's true. If these players aren't Sams choice that means Dowling chose them for Bilic at some point and Slav said no
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That's true. If these players aren't Sams choice that means Dowling chose them for Bilic at some point and Slav said no
No it doesn't, whoever identified them it doesn't mean they were available in the summer.
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No it doesn't, whoever identified them it doesn't mean they were available in the summer.
I always say if a top flight club has even a passing interest in a player it will come out in the press. Available or not. Possible Slav was a victim of poor timing though along with everything else.
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A matter of opinion of course, but I have more confidence Allardyce would have identified the many weaknesses in this team much earlier and recruited players who would at least have made us seaworthy for the choppy seas of the Premier League.
As it was we set sail with a team full of more holes than a rusty bucket. And appointed Allardyce too late with too much water already flooding in.
He should have been in the job in August but firing Bilic after promotion (albeit the writing was already on the wall with our poor form for months) would have caused howls of protest.
But there’s no room for sentiment. We should have done whatever was necessary to give ourselves a chance. All too late.
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That's true. If these players aren't Sams choice that means Dowling chose them for Bilic at some point and Slav said no
Dowling doesn't shop overseas mate .
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IMO, two corporate decisions influenced WBA recruitment last summer.
1 - The desire to reduce the age of the squad
2 - The changes in the laws on immigration & the impact on buying foreign players.
Players of similar calibre to the ones we brought in in January were available last summer, WBA just chose not to take that route.
I'm not convinced any one individual was responsible for our summer recruitment, everybody was following a corporate strategy.
When SA came, that changed.
Going on from that, if SA can develop a winning style, I just can't see him being a short term fix.
Whatever SA builds between now & May, if we start to show positive results, it would be madness to dismantle it.
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Dowling doesn't shop overseas mate .
I agree I think it's Sam's doing but just playing the flip side just in case.
If we get rid.of Dowling and get in someone new then all Lais money might not be wasted.
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.... if SA can develop a winning style, I just can't see him being a short term fix.
Whatever SA builds between now & May, if we start to show positive results, it would be madness to dismantle it.
Agreed. Let's see what can be achieved for the rest of the season.
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A matter of opinion of course, but I have more confidence Allardyce would have identified the many weaknesses in this team much earlier and recruited players who would at least have made us seaworthy for the choppy seas of the Premier League.
As it was we set sail with a team full of more holes than a rusty bucket. And appointed Allardyce too late with too much water already flooding in.
He should have been in the job in August but firing Bilic after promotion (albeit the writing was already on the wall with our poor form for months) would have caused howls of protest.
But there’s no room for sentiment. We should have done whatever was necessary to give ourselves a chance. All too late.
Too late? Sam took over and we were 3 pts off safety and he's had the full window to get players in.
To be fair, if he keeps us up from this position then he deserves to stay on.
If he doesn't, then he should go, he's failed to achieve his targets.
A run of good results towards the end of the season shouldn't mask that. He still sent us out to defend for our lives with a team in capable of defending and we gave ourselves no chance of getting points out of those games.
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IMO, two corporate decisions influenced WBA recruitment last summer.
1 - The desire to reduce the age of the squad
2 - The changes in the laws on immigration & the impact on buying foreign players.
Players of similar calibre to the ones we brought in in January were available last summer, WBA just chose not to take that route.
I'm not convinced any one individual was responsible for our summer recruitment, everybody was following a corporate strategy.
When SA came, that changed.
Going on from that, if SA can develop a winning style, I just can't see him being a short term fix.
Whatever SA builds between now & May, if we start to show positive results, it would be madness to dismantle it.
Going back to Madeley's piece the day after Bilic got sacked it does appear there was a difference of opinion on players for this campaign between Dowling and Bilic .
In fact you can trace it a little further back to Zohore and Grosicki who Bilic barely picked . Add that to the other issue you highlighted and I don't think it's far off how we got in a mess . I agree with not binning this strategy if we show signs of improvement , far too much short term thinking going on .
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Best window in along time with each outfield player being an improvement on who he's replaced and only half million spent.
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Best window in along time with each outfield player being an improvement on who he's replaced and only half million spent.
Even if it is a mix of loans and "might bes" for next season who end up not staying, it does show that Allardyce knows his onions and how to get the types of players he wants, so unless we completely implode and he loses the dressing room I'd like to see him stay. I also think Diangana will need an old head overseeing him, not the matey touch, he could be key for us in the champ if he can stay fit.
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Going back to Madeley's piece the day after Bilic got sacked it does appear there was a difference of opinion on players for this campaign between Dowling and Bilic .
In fact you can trace it a little further back to Zohore and Grosicki who Bilic barely picked . Add that to the other issue you highlighted and I don't think it's far off how we got in a mess . I agree with not binning this strategy if we show signs of improvement , far too much short term thinking going on .
If I recall, the biggest difference of opinion between Bilic & Dowling was about Diangana.
Bilic would rather have spent the transfer fee on other players. (Can't say I disagree)
Personally, I think that the decision to reduce the age of the players was wrong, (at least as soon as we had been promoted, it was).
IMO the board should have changed the strategy to staying in the EPL.
WBA could have paid the wages of some good players for the £40 odd million we spent on transfer fees in the summer, as was demonstrated in January.
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If I recall, the biggest difference of opinion between Bilic & Dowling was about Diangana.
Bilic would rather have spent the transfer fee on other players. (Can't say I disagree)
Personally, I think that the decision to reduce the age of the players was wrong, (at least as soon as we had been promoted, it was).
IMO the board should have changed the strategy to staying in the EPL.
WBA could have paid the wages of some good players for the £40 odd million we spent on transfer fees in the summer, as was demonstrated in January.
You think we'd have stood a chance of staying up by relying on free transfers? and no Pierera? It would have been a brave board to have sanctioned that. ;D
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You think we'd have stood a chance of staying up by relying on free transfers? and no Pierera? It would have been a brave board to have sanctioned that. ;D
Isn't that what they're doing now?
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Best window in along time with each outfield player being an improvement on who he's replaced and only half million spent.
I agree that January was a very good window. I do somehow doubt the statement that we spent only half a million. Its a moot point though since we cannot prove it either way.
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I agree that January was a very good window. I do somehow doubt the statement that we spent only half a million. Its a moot point though since we cannot prove it either way.
There's no way we spent only half a million. When you add up all bits and pieces, hidden fees, it'll come to a fair bit more than that.
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Too late? Sam took over and we were 3 pts off safety and he's had the full window to get players in.
To be fair, if he keeps us up from this position then he deserves to stay on.
I do agree with this part to an extent.
In order for the January signings to have they impact they needed, we needed to stay within contention of the pack so that the new signings gave us the added impetus we needed to survive.
Unfortunately, our performances were largely abysmal and we've fallen behind the likes of Brighton, Burnely and Newcastle.
The new signings are now trying to bring us back into contention rather than taking us away from the drop zone.
We now have a side whom don't react to pressure particularly well, having the pressure of needing to win pretty much every game.
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Isn't that what they're doing now?
Yeah, but not in the summer, always the case that teams tend to not spend in January. Going into the Prem season relying only on free transfers? The board would have been hammered before we'd even kicked a ball.
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If I recall, the biggest difference of opinion between Bilic & Dowling was about Diangana.
Bilic would rather have spent the transfer fee on other players. (Can't say I disagree)s
Personally, I think that the decision to reduce the age of the players was wrong, (at least as soon as we had been promoted, it was).
IMO the board should have changed the strategy to staying in the EPL.
WBA could have paid the wages of some good players for the £40 odd million we spent on transfer fees in the summer, as was demonstrated in January.
From memory and I'd have to read it again to be sure I believe you are correct on the Grady issue but Dowling and co would have liked a DM where Bilic plumped for Krov .
There was also the issue over two strikers Bilic wanted , certainly at this point there appears to have been a break in relations . That said I wouldn't have been keen on those two either , again in hindsight the Grant money alone could and should have been spent better .
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There's no way we spent only half a million. When you add up all bits and pieces, hidden fees, it'll come to a fair bit more than that.
From the Athletic and Percy they gave the following info:
AMN was 280k flat, that's to help cover his wages i assume
Snodgrass was 150k fee and wages 40k-ish? for 20 weeks say 800k so lets call that 1m all in for the season.
Diagne is 55k per week, no fee. 55x20 weeks is 1.1m
Okay is a fee IF we stay up.
So they gave Allardyce 2.2m-ish including wages.
We also shipped out Field, Kipre, Austin and Harper so thats 50k saved in wages. So net they have given him around 1m including any wages to keep us up.
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I doubt the deals that were done in January were available in the summer although similar alternatives would have been. We haven't spent a lot up front but we have committed to future permeant deals but only I think they kick in if we stay up.
All of this is just a short term fix and one that has had a couple of decent results. It is absolutely not the start of anything long term.
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There's no way we spent only half a million. When you add up all bits and pieces, hidden fees, it'll come to a fair bit more than that.
I wonder what Craig Allardyce is doing these days...
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I doubt the deals that were done in January were available in the summer although similar alternatives would have been. We haven't spent a lot up front but we have committed to future permeant deals but only I think they kick in if we stay up.
All of this is just a short term fix and one that has had a couple of decent results. It is absolutely not the start of anything long term.
While the club is up for sale, I'd agree, there is no long term thinking, but if a synergy starts to develop between SA & the players, the board might be tempted to risk a loan for a season to keep some of the key players.
If it all falls apart between now & May, then it's a dismantle & start again.
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While the club is up for sale, I'd agree, there is no long term thinking, but if a synergy starts to develop between SA & the players, the board might be tempted to risk a loan for a season to keep some of the key players.
If it all falls apart between now & May, then it's a dismantle & start again.
I'm no fan of his and I think it would be horrible having him in the Championship but I can see why it might happen if we have a strong finish.
If we he manages to beat the Wolves again I'd probably advocate freedom of West Brom though to be fair. ;)
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I can see the scenario of Allardyce running us in the champs having sold Periera / Diangana / Johnston/ O’shea no Diang, Okay, offloaded Gibbs, Phillips, Peltier, Livermore, Austin, Zohore,
An unrecognisable team in Allardyces image is odds on in my opinions
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Getting a bit of bad press here:
https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/west-ham-news/west-ham-hammers-sam-allardyce-rio-ferdinand-tottenham-west-brom-ravel-morrison/
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Getting a bit of bad press here:
https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/west-ham-news/west-ham-hammers-sam-allardyce-rio-ferdinand-tottenham-west-brom-ravel-morrison/
This was the only pertinent point for me
“But look, Sam is a top guy, we just went through a difficult period, but in football stuff happens some times and it can be frustrating, it can be the best or the worst thing.â€
Clubs/managers asking troubled players to change agent is something that goes on regularly up and down the country. Morrison is a trouble and the seemingly doesn’t have many bad words to say.
Nothing to see here.
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This was the only pertinent point for me
“But look, Sam is a top guy, we just went through a difficult period, but in football stuff happens some times and it can be frustrating, it can be the best or the worst thing.â€
Clubs/managers asking troubled players to change agent is something that goes on regularly up and down the country. Morrison is a trouble and the seemingly doesn’t have many bad words to say.
Nothing to see here.
You may be right. West Ham fans seem to view it differently though.
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You may be right. West Ham fans seem to view it differently though.
Sorry but I agree with Liam, this is a nothing story to me.
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Sorry but I agree with Liam, this is a nothing story to me.
That's fine. I'm not disagreeing with Liam either. Just pointing out that West Ham fans seem to view it differently. Different perceptions of the same story.
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That's fine. I'm not disagreeing with Liam either. Just pointing out that West Ham fans seem to view it differently. Different perceptions of the same story.
True.
They also hated us getting Grady. I do genuinely wonder how that little saga will pan out for us....?
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True.
They also hated us getting Grady. I do genuinely wonder how that little saga will pan out for us....?
So far they done nicely out of it, Early days I know.
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While the club is up for sale, I'd agree, there is no long term thinking
Which is stupid in my opinion. If I was going to buy a business I'd want to see that it's being looked after properly and had a future, and if not then I'd be willing to part with a lot less for it.
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This was the only pertinent point for me
“But look, Sam is a top guy, we just went through a difficult period, but in football stuff happens some times and it can be frustrating, it can be the best or the worst thing.â€
Clubs/managers asking troubled players to change agent is something that goes on regularly up and down the country. Morrison is a trouble and the seemingly doesn’t have many bad words to say.
Nothing to see here.
Won't go in to detail on here for various reasons, but I believe it was much more than just advising Morrison to change agents. As with many other things Allardyce related that we are not able to discuss on here, it is one of the many reasons I don't want him here even disregarding results & styles of play on the pitch
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This was the only pertinent point for me
“But look, Sam is a top guy, we just went through a difficult period, but in football stuff happens some times and it can be frustrating, it can be the best or the worst thing.â€
Clubs/managers asking troubled players to change agent is something that goes on regularly up and down the country. Morrison is a trouble and the seemingly doesn’t have many bad words to say.
Nothing to see here.
He also says it was his most enjoyable time in football at WHU and all that was under Sam...
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Which is stupid in my opinion. If I was going to buy a business I'd want to see that it's being looked after properly and had a future, and if not then I'd be willing to part with a lot less for it.
And therein lies the whole problem with our club
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He also says it was his most enjoyable time in football at WHU and all that was under Sam...
It was, it seemed like he had his career back on track for those 6 months or so and he was being touted for a call up to the full England squad I think. Then he dropped out of the team/squad reasonably suddenly despite performances still being good and no on or off field disciplinary issues...
Anyway, back to Allardyce at Albion. The Utd game reminded me a lot of a number of performances under Bilic earlier in the season. I don't expect Allardyce to keep us up, but I do expect performances to improve. If he can oversee a few more performances like that then I'd agree he's stopped making us actively worse and hopefully we can build from there over the last 10 or so games.
I'm interested to see how we perform in the next few games as generally this season we've done well against the top sides, but under both Allardyce and Bilic have been dreadful against the bottom teams. I'm not too bothered about results as this stage as the seasons gone for me, but it would be nice to see us have a degree of control in a game and put in a few performances where we can say we were the better team. We've got a squad now that should enable us to at least be competitive in the division, although theres still a couple of positions, and in particular RB, where we are borderline Championship level.
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From the Athletic and Percy they gave the following info:
AMN was 280k flat, that's to help cover his wages i assume
Snodgrass was 150k fee and wages 40k-ish? for 20 weeks say 800k so lets call that 1m all in for the season.
Diagne is 55k per week, no fee. 55x20 weeks is 1.1m
Okay is a fee IF we stay up.
So they gave Allardyce 2.2m-ish including wages.
We also shipped out Field, Kipre, Austin and Harper so thats 50k saved in wages. So net they have given him around 1m including any wages to keep us up.
Wasnt Austin on circa 55-70k a week himself? Id say we saved nearly double the amount of 50k if he was
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Wasnt Austin on circa 55-70k a week himself? Id say we saved nearly double the amount of 50k if he was
Well that's what every paper said but Standaman says no more like 25k per week but not provided his source yet.
I since googled this figure and can't find anything saying 25k per week.
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Which is stupid in my opinion. If I was going to buy a business I'd want to see that it's being looked after properly and had a future, and if not then I'd be willing to part with a lot less for it.
Lai wants everything for nothing
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There's an excellent article on the Athletic about Morrison and it's clear he was a troubled soul that many a manager has tried to help, and failed.
It does say though that the relationship with Allardyce "went so sour, it lead to the player signing a confidentiality agreement, not to talk about it". Maybe that agreement has now expired and the truth will come out.
Either way, if you read the article, it is clear that, whilst it may be one of many contributory factors, the problems with Morrison's career cannot be laid at Allardyce's door.
As for West Ham, they have had many an opportunity to take him back.
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Wasnt Austin on circa 55-70k a week himself? Id say we saved nearly double the amount of 50k if he was
The problem is with that is Austin has gone to QPR and they are probably not paying half of even the bottom end of that range.
In the Premier League he would be earning £55k maybe more but I can't believe reports we paid him that in the Championship it might have got there with promotion bonuses but base wage that would be suicide. IF we did agree to that number those that agreed to it should be fired for agreeing to it regardless of how he performed.
QPR won't be paying that is for sure you can't pay one player the equivalent of £3m a year off a £18m wage bill.
There's an excellent article on the Athletic about Morrison and it's clear he was a troubled soul that many a manager has tried to help, and failed.
It does say though that the relationship with Allardyce "went so sour, it lead to the player signing a confidentiality agreement, not to talk about it". Maybe that agreement has now expired and the truth will come out.
Either way, if you read the article, it is clear that, whilst it may be one of many contributory factors, the problems with Morrison's career cannot be laid at Allardyce's door.
As for West Ham, they have had many an opportunity to take him back.
And one party needs a confidentiality agreement because....? I suspect Morrison is at the limit of what he is able to say. We can't talk about it.
I will never want Allardyce at the club regardless of results style of play etc....
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The problem is with that is Austin has gone to QPR and they are probably not paying half of even the bottom end of that range.
In the Premier League he would be earning £55k maybe more but I can't believe reports we paid him that in the Championship it might have got there with promotion bonuses but base wage that would be suicide. IF we did agree to that number those that agreed to it should be fired for agreeing to it regardless of how he performed.
QPR won't be paying that is for sure you can't pay one player the equivalent of £3m a year off a £18m wage bill.
And one party needs a confidentiality agreement because....? I suspect Morrison is at the limit of what he is able to say. We can't talk about it.
I will never want Allardyce at the club regardless of results style of play etc....
I agree completely, if it requires a confidentiality agreement then it's not insignificant. It's not why Morrison is where he is though.
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There's an excellent article on the Athletic about Morrison and it's clear he was a troubled soul that many a manager has tried to help, and failed.
It does say though that the relationship with Allardyce "went so sour, it lead to the player signing a confidentiality agreement, not to talk about it". Maybe that agreement has now expired and the truth will come out.
Either way, if you read the article, it is clear that, whilst it may be one of many contributory factors, the problems with Morrison's career cannot be laid at Allardyce's door.
As for West Ham, they have had many an opportunity to take him back.
A poster mentioned earlier that a manager recommending an agent isn't an uncommon occurrence (although I'm not sure it is that common?)
I will say that whilst a change of agent was put to Morrison by Allardyce (with a senior player at the club also offering Morrison the same thoughts), I wouldn't say 'advised' would be the correct word, and he also wasn't 'advised' to switch to any old new agent.
As Setefeet says, Morrison was one of those players who was always going to end up how he did, and Allardyce is not to blame for how his career panned out. Morrison has had far more chances than most, but it's shame how it ended for him at West Ham. It was the one time he had a remotely stable and consistent period in his career and he played some good football and looked like he might explode in to the player he had been tipped to become. Unfortunately the possibility he might just turn in to a megastar is probably what cost him his career at Wet Ham.
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Well that's what every paper said but Standaman says no more like 25k per week but not provided his source yet.
I since googled this figure and can't find anything saying 25k per week.
Type in Charlie Austin wage wba in google.
Every site dedicated to salaries shows him in the 50-52k wage bracket when we signed him. 2 year deal with 7.2m. Reports are that went to 70k on promotion. That doesnt sound outside the realms of possiblity.
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Type in Charlie Austin wage wba in google.
Every site dedicated to salaries shows him in the 50-52k wage bracket when we signed him. 2 year deal with 7.2m. Reports are that went to 70k on promotion. That doesnt sound outside the realms of possiblity.
So with that in mind and taking into account the other salaries for the 3 players shipped out its closer to or above 100k saved a week, which means the 430k Allardyce spent is about right.
Look at the quality of player brought in aswell
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Type in Charlie Austin wage wba in google.
Every site dedicated to salaries shows him in the 50-52k wage bracket when we signed him. 2 year deal with 7.2m. Reports are that went to 70k on promotion. That doesnt sound outside the realms of possiblity.
50k per week is also what every journo said but Standaman said 25k per week but hes now clarified thats his view only a few posts up. Austin was on 70k-80k per week at Saints so VERY unlikely he's come here for 25k per week.
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Which is stupid in my opinion. If I was going to buy a business I'd want to see that it's being looked after properly and had a future, and if not then I'd be willing to part with a lot less for it.
Looking at WBA last published accounts (June 2019), the business is being looked after properly & does have a future.
There is no significant debt & most KPI's demonstrate a business that is in control.
WBA would be more valuable as an EPL club than it would in the Championship, so it would make sense to do what they can to retain that EPL status.
On the other hand, they wouldn't want to commit to any long term plans
It's a similar scenario to selling a house, you'd spend enough to make sure it retained it's value, but you'd be unlikely to spend money on longer term projects that wouldn't benefit you.
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50k per week is also what every journo said but Standaman said 25k per week but hes now clarified thats his view only a few posts up. Austin was on 70k-80k per week at Saints so VERY unlikely he's come here for 25k per week.
The impression from the same journalists that I was given was that Southampton bought out the last year of that contract as part of the deal that bought him to Albion. Nobody elsewhere was offering him £50k nor a contract in the Premier League. But that still does not mean QPR are paying anything close to £50k a week.
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The impression from the same journalists that I was given was that Southampton bought out the last year of that contract as part of the deal that bought him to Albion. Nobody elsewhere was offering him £50k nor a contract in the Premier League. But that still does not mean QPR are paying anything close to £50k a week.
Thought we were talking about his contract here not QPR?? He was on 50k+ from every site and report ive seen and that went upto 70k on promotion.
Either way it doesnt matter, his wages off the bill had a big influence on Allardyce being able to bring in the players he did
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The impression from the same journalists that I was given was that Southampton bought out the last year of that contract as part of the deal that bought him to Albion. Nobody elsewhere was offering him £50k nor a contract in the Premier League. But that still does not mean QPR are paying anything close to £50k a week.
I agree with that I said 50k per week roughly combined from the 4 I mentioned including Austin
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Yes, with Austin gone in the summer (and probably Gibbs), theoretically we could afford Diagne. Whether that actually happens and he'd want to play in the Championship is a different question altogether. In theory though we should have a bit of money to spend in the summer.
Regarding Morrison, I felt a bit sorry for him when he was talking to Ferdinand. However, consider this. West Ham was his longest and most successful spell at any club. This was 27 league games which is a very small amount for a guy that is 27. Since then, he's been carted around the world and has probably earned his agent a lot of money in the process.
My point is, he may have actually been better off with a different agent and ultimately it speaks volumes if his best spell was under Allardyce who he fell out with. I'm suggesting what Allardyce did was right, and I genuinely think Morrison had a tough start. Nonetheless, I don't think Allardyce is the real victim here in terms of how Morrison's career went.
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Even Sir Alex couldn't get a tune out of Morrison.
He said he was the most talented young player he had ever had. Rio said similar.
Morrison's problem seems to be that he is unreliable and doesn't have a good attitude.
So the Allardyce connection seems to a red herring.
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Yes, with Austin gone in the summer (and probably Gibbs), theoretically we could afford Diagne. Whether that actually happens and he'd want to play in the Championship is a different question altogether. In theory though we should have a bit of money to spend in the summer.
Regarding Morrison, I felt a bit sorry for him when he was talking to Ferdinand. However, consider this. West Ham was his longest and most successful spell at any club. This was 27 league games which is a very small amount for a guy that is 27. Since then, he's been carted around the world and has probably earned his agent a lot of money in the process.
My point is, he may have actually been better off with a different agent and ultimately it speaks volumes if his best spell was under Allardyce who he fell out with. I'm suggesting what Allardyce did was right, and I genuinely think Morrison had a tough start. Nonetheless, I don't think Allardyce is the real victim here in terms of how Morrison's career went.
Potentially Allardyce could claim to have the players best interests at heart if he had suggested he move on from his current agent because he felt the agent just wanted to make money off Morrison. The irony of how it actually played out isn't lost when considering that as a hypothetical. I also don't believe it was the case that it was Morrison who fell out with Allardyce.
Agree Allardyce is not to blame for how Morrisons career turned out, something which I think was inevitable from an early age. However he was a very big part of why and how it ended at West Ham.
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With some people starting to advocate that Allardyce should remain here next season, it's worth considering how the start he's made compares with the first 11 results at Albion of some other managers who have a degree of infamy with Albion fans (3 points for a win assumed):
| | W | D | L | Pts |
| Saunders | 1 | 4 | 6 | 7 |
| Gould | 2 | 3 | 6 | 9 |
| Little | 2 | 7 | 2 | 13 |
| Mel | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Irvine | 3 | 4 | 4 | 13 |
| Pulis | 4 | 3 | 4 | 15 |
| Pardew | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Allardyce | 1 | 3 | 7 | 6 |
I've only looked back 50 years, but it seems highly likely that, after 11 games, Allardyce has made the worst start of any Albion manager ever, both in term of games lost and points accrued. In terms of "if results/performances improve...." his unquestionably abysmal performance so far means it's a very low bar that has to be achieved during the remainder of the season.
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With some people starting to advocate that Allardyce should remain here next season, it's worth considering how the start he's made compares with the first 11 results at Albion of some other managers who have a degree of infamy with Albion fans (3 points for a win assumed):
| | W | D | L | Pts |
| Saunders | 1 | 4 | 6 | 7 |
| Gould | 2 | 3 | 6 | 9 |
| Little | 2 | 7 | 2 | 13 |
| Mel | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Irvine | 3 | 4 | 4 | 13 |
| Pardew | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Allardyce | 1 | 3 | 7 | 6 |
I've only looked back 50 years, but it seems highly likely that, after 11 games, Allardyce has made the worst start of any Albion manager ever, both in term of games lost and points accrued. In terms of "if results/performances improve...." his unquestionably abysmal performance so far means it's a very low bar that has to be achieved during the remainder of the season.
I'm on the fence with Allardyce and that's mainly because in a positive for me he's actually had a go at sorting the midfield which was needed for the last two seasons or more .
What I'll say is you can read that list as you like but it doesn't take into factor 3 of those had better squads than Allardyce on his arrival . Little and Gould also hard to judge as much lower league and standards so almost impossible to compare to the level we are at now .
Interesting post but could be spun so many ways , many couldn't stand Pulis so he should be on there too if it's on infamy .
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I'm on the fence with Allardyce and that's mainly because in a positive for me he's actually had a go at sorting the midfield which was needed for the last two seasons or more .
How many of the others with poor initial records would you reckon you were still on the fence about after their first 11 games?
many couldn't stand Pulis so he should be on there too if it's on infamy .
Your wish is my command - I'll add Pulis to my original post imminently! ;D
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How many of the others with poor initial records would you reckon you were still on the fence about after their first 11 games?
Your wish is my command - I'll add Pulis to my original post imminently! ;D
for context, can you add Bilic ;-)
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for context, can you add Bilic ;-)
Bilic's record in the first 11 games this season is exactly the same as Allardyce's. Obviously his record when he first joined is miles better.
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I'm on the fence with Allardyce and that's mainly because in a positive for me he's actually had a go at sorting the midfield which was needed for the last two seasons or more .
What I'll say is you can read that list as you like but it doesn't take into factor 3 of those had better squads than Allardyce on his arrival . Little and Gould also hard to judge as much lower league and standards so almost impossible to compare to the level we are at now .
Interesting post but could be spun so many ways , many couldn't stand Pulis so he should be on there too if it's on infamy .
I agree, the stats lack context. It would be interesting to see the 11 games prior to each appointment and to consider the impact each manager had. I suspect Allardyce wouldnt be bottom if you were to look at +/- PPG.
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A link to E &S about SA quotes from yesterday's pre-match press conference.
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/02/19/sam-allardyce-west-brom-must-do-it-against-rivals/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/02/19/sam-allardyce-west-brom-must-do-it-against-rivals/)
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With some people starting to advocate that Allardyce should remain here next season, it's worth considering how the start he's made compares with the first 11 results at Albion of some other managers who have a degree of infamy with Albion fans (3 points for a win assumed):
| | W | D | L | Pts |
| Saunders | 1 | 4 | 6 | 7 |
| Gould | 2 | 3 | 6 | 9 |
| Little | 2 | 7 | 2 | 13 |
| Mel | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Irvine | 3 | 4 | 4 | 13 |
| Pulis | 4 | 3 | 4 | 15 |
| Pardew | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Allardyce | 1 | 3 | 7 | 6 |
I've only looked back 50 years, but it seems highly likely that, after 11 games, Allardyce has made the worst start of any Albion manager ever, both in term of games lost and points accrued. In terms of "if results/performances improve...." his unquestionably abysmal performance so far means it's a very low bar that has to be achieved during the remainder of the season.
I'm with Dexy on this. I was no fan of Allardyce before his arrival but did respect his record, I expected much more from him, particularly regarding defensive organisation and it has been a pretty disastrous start but......
We have seen a succession of managers not address the weakness at CM/DM. From Pullis, through Pardew, Big Dave and then onto Billic. We have also been missing a decent CF who could play the lone striker since Rondon left, the pursuit of Grant and then playing him in this role now seems utterly ludicrous. Sam has insisted that both of these positions were filled, and though its early days both signings seem to have markedly improved us. He also recognised a need for leadership, and bought in Snodgrass, and a need for additional mobility and bought in AMN. I'm sure given the opportunity he would have added an additional RB and LB to that list.
This ability to identify what is obviously needed in a team and addressing that through recruitment used to be a key part of a football managers job and this is what BS is. He is not a super coach or suited to working with a DOF picking players based on business strategy; he knows how he wants to set up a team and how to find players to do a job in that set up. In that way he reminds me of SGM who came into the Albion and did the same at Champ level - you keep conceding at corners then you need a big man to head the ball away! simples. You lack leadership, enter stage Derek Mcines. A recent history of having pretty terrible full backs etc
As with most things comparison over time is not really relevant. BS appears the worst of the worst but different divisions, different circumstances. Pullis had a very positive impact on arrival and was just what we needed, his infamy came later as he poisoned the club over time. AI had a decent start statistically but was a dead duck on arrival. Gould!! FFS terrible on every level and he had money to spend (the wrong Paul Williams anyone). Pardew relegated a team that his novice successor showed was good enough to survive and Pepe Mel tried to adapt a squad of players to his method by playing a high line with defenders designed to sit deep and head away crosses.
BS took over an unbalanced squad without the quality, physicality or leadership to compete at this level and he has tried to address all of these. The real mistake he seems to have made is even considering that the players already here could do actually do a job in his system, and then not being able to magic new signings into the club like a footballing genie when they were needed rather than when they actually arrived.
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How many of the others with poor initial records would you reckon you were still on the fence about after their first 11 games?
Your wish is my command - I'll add Pulis to my original post imminently! ;D
To answer your top question , all of them even Pardew .
They were 10 shockers no doubt , I didn't want Allardyce but accept Bilic had run out of time . I also accept we needed to limp to the Jan Window as this squad was going off the rails last season and I don't need to name the usual suspects who are on their 4th or 5th manager . Personally feel its a brutal league so managers need time and believe me I hated Pardew as a person being here but judged him as I do them all over the whole job . To repeat myself , its a brutal league for clubs like us and on a negative note on Allardyce I believe he thought this squad was better than it actually was back then .
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With some people starting to advocate that Allardyce should remain here next season, it's worth considering how the start he's made compares with the first 11 results at Albion of some other managers who have a degree of infamy with Albion fans (3 points for a win assumed):
| | W | D | L | Pts |
| Saunders | 1 | 4 | 6 | 7 |
| Gould | 2 | 3 | 6 | 9 |
| Little | 2 | 7 | 2 | 13 |
| Mel | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Irvine | 3 | 4 | 4 | 13 |
| Pulis | 4 | 3 | 4 | 15 |
| Pardew | 1 | 5 | 5 | 8 |
| Allardyce | 1 | 3 | 7 | 6 |
I've only looked back 50 years, but it seems highly likely that, after 11 games, Allardyce has made the worst start of any Albion manager ever, both in term of games lost and points accrued. In terms of "if results/performances improve...." his unquestionably abysmal performance so far means it's a very low bar that has to be achieved during the remainder of the season.
Even Denis Smith's first 11 games in charge are better than Allardyce's WON 2 DREW 4 LOST 5. PTS 10
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Even Denis Smith's first 11 games in charge are better than Allardyce's WON 2 DREW 4 LOST 5. PTS 10
The difference in the Premier now and the 2nd tier back then is huge Kev , for the level Smith took over a decent squad from Harford . Best will to Slav this lot was not balanced to say the least , not all his fault i'll add .
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Pepe Mel tried to adapt a squad of players to his method by playing a high line with defenders designed to sit deep and head away crosses.
BS took over an unbalanced squad without the quality, physicality or leadership to compete at this level and he has tried to address all of these. The real mistake he seems to have made is even considering that the players already here could do actually do a job in his system,
I agree with this analysis, the irony is Pepe Mel was given very short shrift and shown the door, Allardyce for the same sin is excused because he inherited an unbalanced side. I don't get that!
Both stupid, should get the same treatment, IMO.
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Pepe Mel tried to adapt a squad of players to his method by playing a high line with defenders designed to sit deep and head away crosses.
BS took over an unbalanced squad without the quality, physicality or leadership to compete at this level and he has tried to address all of these. The real mistake he seems to have made is even considering that the players already here could do actually do a job in his system, and then not being able to magic new signings into the club like a footballing genie when they were needed rather than when they actually arrived.
So Mel was culpable for using tactics that weren't appropriate given the squad composition, but you don't think Allardyce should be judged on the same criterion?
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Mel was culpable due to his style of management such as not turning up to training and players picking the side from all reports because they didn’t trust him.
Not sure that happens with BS
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Interesting to see Sam's comments that Everton have had big spending power recently and if he'd have had that he'd be expecting top four. Everton fans not happy...
“He spent 50m in 1 window at Everton, Ancelotti has spent 60m in 3 windows. Of the 2 players he signed one has been let go on loan to run his contract out and leave on a free and the other is out on loan back in Turkey at the team we signed him from. Thank god he never got more.â€
And also pointing out he'd have not lasted that long anyway as the football was defensive, slow and boring.
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So Mel was culpable for using tactics that weren't appropriate given the squad composition, but you don't think Allardyce should be judged on the same criterion?
Yes I do and in my final paragraph I point out his error in thinking that the players at the club could do the job, even as a stop gap, a fatal error as it turns out. But the main point was that he has had the understanding, knowledge and influence at the club to address it within a short time from his arrival. Too late maybe but this is something other managers have failed to do at all.
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Allardyce = too negative. Burnley were there for the taking and he starts with Phillips instead of Diangana, why?
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Here we go again
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Allardyce = too negative. Burnley were there for the taking and he starts with Phillips instead of Diangana, why?
Nothing negative about the starting line up at all. Diangana as been out for weeks got no right to go straight back in. Phillips was doing ok.
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Allardyce = too negative. Burnley were there for the taking and he starts with Phillips instead of Diangana, why?
Is this a wind up?
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Nothing negative about the starting line up at all. Diangana as been out for weeks got no right to go straight back in. Phillips was doing ok.
And before his injury Grady was poor
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And before his injury Grady was poor
Correct! Some people just got to have a moan if we win 3-0 it would still be too negative!
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What use is going to Burnley and drawing? Play your best players
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What use is going to Burnley and drawing? Play your best players
Which best players hasn’t he played??
We’ve gone to win.
Must be a wind up post
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What use is going to Burnley and drawing? Play your best players
Go on then , who are we talking about
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The only player i can think of is Diangana but he's been out for nearly 2 months so you wouldnt just ask him to play 90 mins straight off the bat. Apart from that i'm lost.
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Really hope we can keep him for next season and he gets the assurances he needs concerning players. Transformed this side with a couple of signings.
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Really hope we can keep him for next season and he gets the assurances he needs concerning players. Transformed this side with a couple of signings.
Singing off the same hymn sheet! Big Sam's Barmy Army ;D
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I want Big Sam for next season as well. We would be hard to beat which in Champ is underrated (see Cardiffetc)
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The only thing I can pin on Allardyce Today is Phillips starting , utter rubbish and was finished two years ago .
Can't fault rest of it .
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Got the team selection and set up bang on today. Only thing I would have liked to have seen was some fresh legs out wide when we stretched Burnley second half
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Good job by Allardyce today.
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Oh come on man!
Should he have started Pereira and Diagne? Because if the answer is yes then those two just have to put the ball away and it's three points. He can't shoot for them. The inclusion of Phillips is pretty irrelevant and maybe Diangana would've had a run out but then the game changed at 30 minutes and making any other changes wasn't needed.
Can't knock Allardyce today.
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Singing off the same hymn sheet! Big Sam's Barmy Army ;D
When Jacko and I are of the same mind, it is clearly the way forward
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Really not sure he'd be the answer in the Championship. I think you have to attack that division and the best footballing teams tend to end up at the top. There are decent squads in the current top 6 so there will be a few good teams missing out on promotion to add to the 3 coming down.
Either way, it's getting to the point where it's decision time. If he's not sticking around or the club don't want him then we need to get the next appointment lined up asap.
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Pulling his hair out that we couldn't finish numerous gilt-edged chances. Even with ten men we looked comfortable but my only concern is that our fullbacks are limited in going forward, Furlong is poor going either way and Townsend is not the best going forward.
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Whatever you think of him one of his strengths has always been spotting a player. The huge difference between the summer recruitment and January says a lot. He is a much better judge of a player than Dowling.
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Really not sure he'd be the answer in the Championship. I think you have to attack that division and the best footballing teams tend to end up at the top. There are decent squads in the current top 6 so there will be a few good teams missing out on promotion to add to the 3 coming down.
Either way, it's getting to the point where it's decision time. If he's not sticking around or the club don't want him then we need to get the next appointment lined up asap.
I’d definitely wait a bit longer to see if he can develop any momentum. We’re still not winning, but the team looks more competitive all round to me.
He may not want to do a season in the Championship anyway, but I’d actually quite fancy our chances of coming back up and staying up with Allardyce.
If he shows signs of fashioning a competitive team out of the limited resources at his disposal I’d be inclined to want him to carry on.
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We outplayed Burnley with 10 men. I may have been a bit hasty so I take it back.
However it was a terrible decision to start with Phillips. Diangana is superior.
Very frustrated as we are now clearly superior to Burnley. Our current team would've stayed up.
I was at the front of the queue highlighting how bad Livermore was.
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I personally think some stability is what we really need and if he wanted to stay with us in the Chumps I'd most likely be for it.
I would hate it however if it meant that we'd part with the likes of Pereira. Just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree!
As for when a decision should be made by club and coach, looks to me by the upcoming fixtures end of March would be sensible...?
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Not sure If he'd be up for the slog or his style would work but if it stops Dowling bringing in 'his' players then that is one positive step .
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I’d definitely wait a bit longer to see if he can develop any momentum. We’re still not winning, but the team looks more competitive all round to me.
He may not want to do a season in the Championship anyway, but I’d actually quite fancy our chances of coming back up and staying up with Allardyce.
If he shows signs of fashioning a competitive team out of the limited resources at his disposal I’d be inclined to want him to carry on.
I think it's important that we have someone who knows exactly where we are and what needs to be done with the squad. bringing someone new in would be starting again. I think he's our man which ever division we are in. There will need to be a number of signings in the summer. I can honestly see 11 of the 19 in the match day squad leaving - I would trust Big Sam to replace them and push the board to get it done in a timely manner. We can't afford to pussy foot around with 8 or 9 players coming in after the season has started.
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Sam has shown his professionalism with his substitutions.
Recently he took off Q'Shea after about 20 minutes because he was being so exposed.
Against Palace we went down to 10 men after about 39mins didn't make a sub till half time then brought on Kov who has little physicality.
Today we went down to 10men after about 30minutes and made an instant substitution bringing on O'Shea with his physicality.
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Despite only winning once in his first 12 games, getting knocked out of the FA Cup by Blackpool and drawing 0-0 today when we needed desperately to win (yes I know we had a sending off), some people are seemingly willing to give Allardyce the Freedom of the Borough.
We were 3 points adrift when he was brought in to save the club from relegation, with claims that he could galvanise the current players, and now we're 11 points from safety having played a game more than Brighton and Newcastle. Whatever improvements there might be from now on, it's too little too late. It's a time-honoured tradition of football that incoming managers are meant to have a positive effect pretty soon after their arrival.
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Very much in the same camp as Worcs. The last 2 games have seen an improvement but let's remember we were unfortunate at Old Trafford and drew 0-0 with Burnley in the return fixtures so hardly a massive improvement in results in spite of having much needed reinforcements available
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Despite only winning once in his first 12 games, getting knocked out of the FA Cup by Blackpool and drawing 0-0 today when we needed desperately to win (yes I know we had a sending off), some people are seemingly willing to give Allardyce the Freedom of the Borough.
We were 3 points adrift when he was brought in to save the club from relegation, with claims that he could galvanise the current players, and now we're 11 points from safety having played a game more than Brighton and Newcastle. Whatever improvements there might be from now on, it's too little too late. It's a time-honoured tradition of football that incoming managers are meant to have a positive effect pretty soon after their arrival.
First really sensible post of the night.
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No fan of Allardyce but hard to blame him for today when we should have won. Caveat to that is that Burnley are woeful - basically like us under Pulis, not a great side but grind enough points out through experience. Mee & Tarkowski are like Mcauley and Olsson.
Also as others have said, it has taken Allardyce way too long to get going. We should have won the last two but aside from those games & Wolves we've barely competed. Signs of improvement recently but it's too little too late.
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I suspect if they team keep putting in improved performances between now and the end of the season Allardyce will stay if he wants to next season . Its a nice pay day for him firstly and not too much upheaval for the want away Lai and co who as we know plan everything short term these days .
Most of all it probably keeps Luke Dowling in his job here too .
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Despite only winning once in his first 12 games, getting knocked out of the FA Cup by Blackpool and drawing 0-0 today when we needed desperately to win (yes I know we had a sending off), some people are seemingly willing to give Allardyce the Freedom of the Borough.
We were 3 points adrift when he was brought in to save the club from relegation, with claims that he could galvanise the current players, and now we're 11 points from safety having played a game more than Brighton and Newcastle. Whatever improvements there might be from now on, it's too little too late. It's a time-honoured tradition of football that incoming managers are meant to have a positive effect pretty soon after their arrival.
I respectfully disagree with this - not the statistics, but the conclusion drawn from them and the assumptions made.
I think the evidence suggests it’s far more likely that the players aren’t good enough. Or at least weren’t until he made some decent signings to make the team a bit more competitive.
It’s an opinion of course but I don’t personally think any manager in the world could have got great results with what he inherited. “New manager†bounce also needs players to perform but that presumes they have the ability to “raise their game.â€
If they simply can’t because they’re not good enough having a new man on the training ground isn’t going to make that much difference. You need the tools to do the job.
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The moment relegation is confirmed then Allardyce should be straight out of the door. Had he managed to keep us up then yes he’d have earned a stay of execution.
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Decision yesterday not to use any of the bench bar inforced change gives me the indication that he does not trust replacements.
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Decision yesterday not to use any of the bench bar inforced change gives me the indication that he does not trust replacements.
I don’t see what changes we could have made to be honest. We were in control of the game as created several chances to win the game.
Allardyce commented on how happy he was that the players did not show signs of fatigue.
We were extremely fortunate that we played a ronk Burnley side as they admittedly played to our strengths.
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Do not like Allardyce: Did not want him here: Early results and performances looked to me worse than anything under Bilic.
BUT: The effects of the more pragmatic style he has introduced and the addition of the 4 players in the January window have begun to improve the team in both defence and attack. We are still prone to the odd defensive errors - some forced and some inexplicable. The biggest surprise for me though is the creation of chances at the other end as well. Yes we are not scoring as freely as the chances would allow but at least there is usually somebody in place to have a go. I am now more than content with levels of effort and performance under Allardyce, and with the recruitment in January, which has much improved our skill set; such a pity that we will be unlikely to see them with us next season.
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One thing we most definitely are under Allardyce is fitter. They put in a real shift yesterday & went until the end still getting up & down the pitch. That team out there would have been blowing after 65 minutes if it had been earlier in the season.
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Well said, Wodenson!
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Remember when we went down to 10 against Everton and Palace we conceded 5 on both occasions. Yesterday’s performance in the same circumstances was a massive improvement. 4 new signings has made the world of difference and shows what level of recruitment was done or not done in the summer . I for one do not have any problem with Big Sam being in charge next season , whichever division we are in .
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To be fair Burnley were awful, we could have gone down to 8 men and it would still have been 0-0.
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Hodgson's side has two touches in the box and 25% possession and lump it up field aimlessly = genius.... and was regarded as halcyon days at Albion.
Allardyce follows suit and does quite a bit better in recent matches but = dunce.
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Hodgson's side has two touches in the box and 25% possession and lump it up field aimlessly = genius.... and was regarded as halcyon days at Albion.
Allardyce follows suit and does quite a bit better in recent matches but = dunce.
We've only scored 1 the last two games though and won neither. They scored 2 last night and won.
To be fair Allardyce has also received a lot of praise for the improved performances. If we'd actually won one, he'd have got a lot more and I don't think anyone would be that bothered how we did it.
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Hodgson's side has two touches in the box and 25% possession and lump it up field aimlessly = genius.... and was regarded as halcyon days at Albion.
Allardyce follows suit and does quite a bit better in recent matches but = dunce.
Quite a bit better than what exactly? No wins in 7 matches. Crystal Palace 3 wins in 7 matches. You are trying to make a point with absolutely no evidence to back it up.
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Hodgson's side has two touches in the box and 25% possession and lump it up field aimlessly = genius.... and was regarded as halcyon days at Albion.
Allardyce follows suit and does quite a bit better in recent matches but = dunce.
It's said that history is written by the victors. We need to win games for Allardyce to write his own story, regardless of what Roy Hodgson did. I want the best for Allardyce regarding his story here as it would make for a better read than the greatest of escapes.
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I'm not sure if this has been shared before but it's an interesting watch on Sam and his relegation survival masterplan.
https://youtu.be/UGgFkyZaClQ
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He has made us more solid and more organised for sure. This is hard to say post win but I just wish we tried tried attack a bit more especially as we can not defend for 90 minutes. On another day we should have lost today, we need to kill games off. When we are losing going forward we look decent...
Anyway he has improved us defensively and we look more up for the fight...
It's the hope that kills you hey....
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PPG superior to Slavs with over half of his games using Slavs lads. Sam's on 10 from 13 now and Slav 7 from 13.
I'm glad that some self-respect and belief has been brought back to the players but it's almost bitter sweet- 'what could have been' type of thing.
Board can take responsibility for this seasons mess. Again.
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PPG superior to Slavs with over half of his games using Slavs lads. Sam's on 10 from 13 now and Slav 7 from 13.
I'm glad that some self-respect and belief has been brought back to the players but it's almost bitter sweet- 'what could have been' type of thing.
Board can take responsibility for this seasons mess. Again.
Could we go as far as to say Slaven 12 from 23, Sam 5 from 3? :P
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Could we go as far as to say Slaven 12 from 23, Sam 5 from 3? :P
Wouldn't be that unfair imo ;D
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When we go down he needs to go. We won't win promotion sitting deep, giving the ball away hoping the opposition forwards have an off day. Our ball retention is absolutely appalling, zero creativity and totally reliant on set pieces. Yes we now look better at the back largely thanks to Dowling's recruitment of Okay but we'll need more than that to win enough games for promotion.
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Could we go as far as to say Slaven 12 from 23, Sam 5 from 3? :P
Run-in (performances and results) will determine whether I think he should stay or go.
One thing that can't be denied is he can id weaknesses.
Remember seeing an interview months before he joined us where he said he didn't like just being considered a 'firefighter'. Probably wants a chance of a promotion.
If we get momentum between now and end of campaign, will be interested to see where we go
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When we go down he needs to go. We won't win promotion sitting deep, giving the ball away hoping the opposition forwards have an off day. Our ball retention is absolutely appalling, zero creativity and totally reliant on set pieces. Yes we now look better at the back largely thanks to Dowling's recruitment of Okay but we'll need more than that to win enough games for promotion.
Incredibly poor post in almost every word.
YokuÅŸlu clearly an Allardyce signing, and why on earth would we play like you described in the Championship. Arf.
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Delighted with result but not happy with the way we played today going forward. Pereira isn't a wide man and needs to play in no 10 position to give Diagne service, will be interested to here his thoughts on our victory.
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Delighted with result but not happy with the way we played today going forward. Pereira isn't a wide man and needs to play in no 10 position to give Diagne service, will be interested to here his thoughts on our victory.
He said good result of not a great performance. Felt first penalty was very harsh but 2nd pen was fair enough.
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What needs improving an quickly is our passing and ball retention . Seemed to me the further we tried to hoof it the quicker it was back in our last 3rd. This is the enigma that is Perriera . Yes he was poor today but when he’s on the pitch he is more likely to pass to one of our than just about anybody else
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We’re competitive and after what I’ve seen this season I will happily take that.
Unbeaten in three, 5 points from the three games games and back to back clean sheets. We arguably should have won the games against Burnley and Man United.
We’ve given us a solid base to build from. We were slightly fortuitous today but sometimes you have to create your own luck and after the last two performances we certainly deserve that.
That midfield combination of Gallagher, AMN and Yokuslu gives us so much energy and tenacity. If we could have had that combination from August then we would probably be sitting outside the relegation zone now.
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Incredibly poor post in almost every word.
YokuÅŸlu clearly an Allardyce signing, and why on earth would we play like you described in the Championship. Arf.
I’m not sure that setting up in a solid formation and catching sides on the break wouldn’t be a bad way to play in the Championship. It can also be quite an attractive way to win matches. If you don’t concede but can get two or three goals by attacking with pace would do me.
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We’re competitive and after what I’ve seen this season I will happily take that.
Unbeaten in three, 5 points from the three games games and back to back clean sheets. We arguably should have won the games against Burnley and Man United.
We’ve given us a solid base to build from. We were slightly fortuitous today but sometimes you have to create your own luck and after the last two performances we certainly deserve that.
That midfield combination of Gallagher, AMN and Yokuslu gives us so much energy and tenacity. If we could have had that combination from August then we would probably be sitting outside the relegation zone now.
I’d have to agree. Given what’s gone on before three games unbeaten and a win can’t be bad. We are massive underdogs in this league and our spending suggests that we are about where we should be in the table. Putting a run together should be cause for celebration.
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We’re competitive and after what I’ve seen this season I will happily take that.
Unbeaten in three, 5 points from the three games games and back to back clean sheets. We arguably should have won the games against Burnley and Man United.
We’ve given us a solid base to build from. We were slightly fortuitous today but sometimes you have to create your own luck and after the last two performances we certainly deserve that.
That midfield combination of Gallagher, AMN and Yokuslu gives us so much energy and tenacity. If we could have had that combination from August then we would probably be sitting outside the relegation zone now.
just shows how bad recruitment was in summer with majority of player's brought in not involved in first team.
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I am flabbergasted that people think that was a good performance, Brighton had numerous chances and missed 2 penalties, we were dominated for most of the game. The sitting back at 1-0 is appalling.
Lady luck was with us today, that doesnt make it a good performance.
Its would accept the performance was improved but from being hammered week in / week out its hard not to improve.
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We’re competitive and after what I’ve seen this season I will happily take that.
Unbeaten in three, 5 points from the three games games and back to back clean sheets. We arguably should have won the games against Burnley and Man United.
We’ve given us a solid base to build from. We were slightly fortuitous today but sometimes you have to create your own luck and after the last two performances we certainly deserve that.
That midfield combination of Gallagher, AMN and Yokuslu gives us so much energy and tenacity. If we could have had that combination from August then we would probably be sitting outside the relegation zone now.
Yeah, every word of that Liam. I've massively changed my tune about Sam A and am glad to say I was wrong. Just hope so much we go on a bit of a run now, regardless of which division we end up in at the end of it (getting ahead of myself, sorry.)
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I am flabbergasted that people think that was a good performance, Brighton had numerous chances and missed 2 penalties, we were dominated for most of the game. The sitting back at 1-0 is appalling.
Lady luck was with us today, that doesnt make it a good performance.
Its would accept the performance was improved but from being hammered week in / week out its hard not to improve.
is it just the case of get the first win no matter how and performances to follow?
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just shows how bad recruitment was in summer with majority of player's brought in not involved in first team.
This is a very important point. Robinson gets a waiver in that Burke would not have been involved either.
Today saw Diangana, Grant, Ivanović, Button, as well as the aforementioned Robinson on the bench.
Kipre on loan in Belgium and Krov at Forest via loan termination.
Absolutely damning of Bilić and Dowling.
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I am flabbergasted that people think that was a good performance, Brighton had numerous chances and missed 2 penalties, we were dominated for most of the game. The sitting back at 1-0 is appalling.
Lady luck was with us today, that doesnt make it a good performance.
Its would accept the performance was improved but from being hammered week in / week out its hard not to improve.
These were pretty much my thoughts on that performance , could quite easily have been another 4 or 5 conceded at home. In mitigation it must be said we deserved to win last week .
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If Allardyce had been in from the start of the season I’m convinced we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. His record proves as much.
Much as I liked Bilic in many ways Allardyce is a vastly better manager and in a different class to his predecessor. This is still a poor team but you can see how he’s slowly turning it round and making them competitive.
That would never have happened under Bilic. We’d been sinking for a while year and would have simply disappeared without trace.
I wish Bilic had been sacked a lot sooner, ideally before the season even started so Allardyce could get some players in. Harsh though it may have been, it would have given us a chance.
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When we go down he needs to go. We won't win promotion sitting deep, giving the ball away hoping the opposition forwards have an off day. Our ball retention is absolutely appalling, zero creativity and totally reliant on set pieces. Yes we now look better at the back largely thanks to Dowling's recruitment of Okay but we'll need more than that to win enough games for promotion.
Disagree completely. Allardyce has been promoted twice out of the Championship.
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is it just the case of get the first win no matter how and performances to follow?
Exactly. They said on SSN tonight Brighton will take a win no matter how it comes after that.
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When we go down he needs to go. We won't win promotion sitting deep, giving the ball away hoping the opposition forwards have an off day. Our ball retention is absolutely appalling, zero creativity and totally reliant on set pieces. Yes we now look better at the back largely thanks to Dowling's recruitment of Okay but we'll need more than that to win enough games for promotion.
Dowlings recruitment of Okay? If you call printing off the Paper work and booking a medical recruiting then yes :)
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Allardyce is a better manager than Bilic all day long.
Not sure Dowling had anything at all to do with signing Okay. The only Turkish Luke Dowling knows ends in 'delight' I'd wager.
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Allardyce gets 29 points going at this rate for a full season so you have to think that if he had got his own players in during the summer we would have been capable of getting well into the thirties and giving us a good chance of survival.
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Allardyce is a better manager than Bilic all day long.
Not sure Dowling had anything at all to do with signing Okay. The only Turkish Luke Dowling knows ends in 'delight' I'd wager.
Absolutely, I would liken him to Roy Hodgson.
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Absolutely, I would liken him to Roy Hodgson.
Very much so. Shame he's come in so late in the season
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Fantastic win today, in a crazy match and the last three performances have renewed hope we can actually do this. Delighted for Big Sam and the players. If I'm being critical I would just like to encourage the players to keep on the front foot when in the lead. We invite too much pressure when we retreat to our box. We're much better when we take it to the opposition. Protecting a lead late on you can understand the back to the wall approach but I think it's counter productive to try it for 60 minutes. Especially now we have energy in central midfield to press teams.
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Fantastic win today, in a crazy match and the last three performances have renewed hope we can actually do this. Delighted for Big Sam and the players. If I'm being critical I would just like to encourage the players to keep on the front foot when in the lead. We invite too much pressure when we retreat to our box. We're much better when we take it to the opposition. Protecting a lead late on you can understand the back to the wall approach but I think it's counter productive to try it for 60 minutes. Especially now we have energy in central midfield to press teams.
Welcome back. I don't think it's intentional. Just natural flow of the game when a team is low in confidence.
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Welcome back. I don't think it's intentional. Just natural flow of the game when a team is low in confidence.
Cheers, maybe. It was a tad concerning to see us sit right in as soon we'd scored in the first half. Lead to some needless corners, to Gallagher challenging them 20 yards out rather than 40 yards out and to their first pen. I'm just happy we got the three points ultimately. I also thought justice was done with the free kick farce and Lee Mason seemed to know he'd made a right mess of it all. Remember the great escape season and Everton at home? Campbell scored and we beat them 2-0. Massive result. We need the same spirit on Thursday.
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Cheers, maybe. It was a tad concerning to see us sit right in as soon we'd scored in the first half. Lead to some needless corners, to Gallagher challenging them 20 yards out rather than 40 yards out and to their first pen. I'm just happy we got the three points ultimately. I also thought justice was done with the free kick farce and Lee Mason seemed to know he'd made a right mess of it all. Remember the great escape season and Everton at home? Campbell scored and we beat them 2-0. Massive result. We need the same spirit on Thursday.
No reason we can't beat a depleted Everton with 50+ hours more rest.
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Time to give Big Sam a bit of credit. The signings that he has made are starting to gel and we look a much stronger, organised and tougher to beat.
Still a long long way to go, but at least we have some fight and results are getting better.
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Is his game plan, get a goal and then drop back into our own half and defend? It certainly seems like it is, after watching the past few matches.
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Is his game plan, get a goal and then drop back into our own half and defend? It certainly seems like it is, after watching the past few matches.
Not really. It's a natural reaction of a low confidence side to going ahead.
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Disagree completely. Allardyce has been promoted twice out of the Championship.
Yes, both via the play offs, including with pre-season favourites West Ham. So never achieved as high a Championship placing as a certain former manager of ours ( and no, I’m not saying Bilic should have stayed).
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Played off the park yet it's a good display according to some.😂😂
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Played off the park yet it's a good display according to some.😂😂
I'll take that any day, wasn't so long ago Leeds Arsenal Villa City and Crystal Palace turned us over with ease.
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Played off the park yet it's a good display according to some.😂😂
It was a good display considering where we were 3-4 weeks ago. I;m no BS fan, but today was completely different to the thrashings from Villa, City, Leeds.... we now look some way organised, and carry a little more threat up front ( not loads, but....!). So yes, I would say we made a lo of progress today. 4 weeks ago, we'd have lost that 5-1.
Draw against Everton will set us up for a real crack at Newcastle,,,hopefully Wolves will hold on for a draw in the game currently ongoing.
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Has anybody actually said it was good etc?! I’m sure we could all see we rode out luck today! Balanced where we should have beat Burnley and Man U
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Has anybody actually said it was good etc?! I’m sure we could all see we rode out luck today! Balanced where we should have beat Burnley and Man U
There’s certainly some comments today that I feel suggest some seem to form their opinions based on the final result rather than the actual performance. If Brighton had score both penalties and but nothing else had change I don’t think anyone would be saying we looked solid or organised.
Against Burnley and United we were better than we have been for much of the season, today we were not.
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Played off the park yet it's a good display according to some.😂😂
You have to win games like that sometimes. I'd be interested to see if you would mock other posters views if it was the lovely Billic in charge or Hodgson. Sam deserves a bit of credit now as much as he has had stick it was only 3/4 months ago we looked completely void of any confidence or quality and sams signings and tactics especially over the last 3 games have changed that. I can't help but feel that if he had been here in the summer we would of grinded out an extra 10/12 points by this point and for the record I'd have him in the championship. I'd feel alot more confident with him bringing in players than I would the likes of Billic as an example who wasted all summer bringing Ivanovic out of retirement effectively, Krovinovic because he smiles alot and Grant
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For me it’s a pity that we only seem able to get results by playing as we did today and how we always played under Pulis. Brighton were way better than us an on most days we lose the game. Let’s not get too carried away.
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For me it’s a pity that we only seem able to get results by playing as we did today and how we always played under Pulis. Brighton were way better than us an on most days we lose the game. Let’s not get too carried away.
On most days Brighton don't win. Hence their problems...
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On most days Brighton don't win. Hence their problems...
And yet they are comfortably above us. We got away with it today.
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OK - so pleased with the win and no anti - Allardyce agenda. But that was lucky.
Robinson must wonder what he's done to be left out, him and Diangana playing 2nd fiddle to Phillips I don't get it?
This team are just playing in a low block even with the buffer of a 1 goal lead. Now is SA setting them up like this /is player belief so low they just revert to type.
It's coming home to roost now the VAR pts lost under Bilic, those extra 5 or 6 would give us a decent shot at staying up.
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OK - so pleased with the win and no anti - Allardyce agenda. But that was lucky.
Robinson must wonder what he's done to be left out, him and Diangana playing 2nd fiddle to Phillips I don't get it?
This team are just playing in a low block even with the buffer of a 1 goal lead. Now is SA setting them up like this /is player belief so low they just revert to type.
It's coming home to roost now the VAR pts lost under Bilic, those extra 5 or 6 would give us a decent shot at staying up.
I think the last 20 minutes was not too dissimilar to the course of a normal game where the winning team sits deeper to see out a victory. I would definitely say the pressure of needing that win and our lack of confidence played its part. I got the impression from O’Shea and Furlong that there was very much a no risks approach.
I’m also not naive to say that Aklardyce’s methods may contain periods of the game where you soak up pressure from the opposition.
I think Phillips is included ahead of both Diangana and Robinson because of the balance he provides the team. Especially when we have the enigmatic Pereira on the other flank. I cannot see Allardyce lining up with a side that exposes our full backs. If Pereira doesn’t get into position you have the energetic AMN or Gallagher who come across and make it a flat four. I don’t think we can afford to have two wide men with a lazy approach to defending.
Our method to survival is remaining in games, being compact and not opening ourselves up and I think we run that risk with Diangana and Robinson.
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I think the last 20 minutes was not too dissimilar to the course of a normal game where the winning team sits deeper to see out a victory. I would definitely say the pressure of needing that win and our lack of confidence played its part. I got the impression from O’Shea and Furlong that there was very much a no risks approach.
I’m also not naive to say that Aklardyce’s methods may contain periods of the game where you soak up pressure from the opposition.
I think Phillips is included ahead of both Diangana and Robinson because of the balance he provides the team. Especially when we have the enigmatic Pereira on the other flank. I cannot see Allardyce lining up with a side that exposes our full backs. If Pereira doesn’t get into position you have the energetic AMN or Gallagher who come across and make it a flat four. I don’t think we can afford to have two wide men with a lazy approach to defending.
Our method to survival is remaining in games, being compact and not opening ourselves up and I think we run that risk with Diangana and Robinson.
I'll be honest I don't ike the style of football, in reality it's hardly any different to Pulis.
We still haven't got rid of HRK, he's hanging on like a limpet.
We were largely outplayed yesterday, that's the long and short of it.
It's not about attacking Allardyce but we are still coming up short in this division, but that maybe largely due to budget constraints.
Oh and Pereira on the wing is not playing to his strengths.
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I'll be honest I don't ike the style of football, in reality it's hardly any different to Pulis.
We still haven't got rid of HRK, he's hanging on like a limpet.
We were largely outplayed yesterday, that's the long and short of it.
It's not about attacking Allardyce but we are still coming up short in this division, but that maybe largely due to budget constraints.
Oh and Pereira on the wing is not playing to his strengths.
I won’t criticise Allardyce for HRK given the lack of alternatives. It’s a glowing indictment of the lack of quality within the squad.
We were outplayed yesterday in the second half - no denying that. We were comfortable in the first half and Brighton didn’t really pose much threat until the minutes before half time. We still had the best chances of the first half and we needed to be more clinical
We’re going to be outplayed against the majority of sides in this division given the quality of our side - what we have seen though since the new additions entered the side is a more defensively resolute side who have created more than enough chances to have taken 9 points as opposed to the 5 we managed.
It might not be pretty to watch at times for the purists amongst us but it is a damn sight prettier than watching us conceding three and four goals every game.
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I think the last 20 minutes was not too dissimilar to the course of a normal game where the winning team sits deeper to see out a victory. I would definitely say the pressure of needing that win and our lack of confidence played its part. I got the impression from O’Shea and Furlong that there was very much a no risks approach.
I’m also not naive to say that Aklardyce’s methods may contain periods of the game where you soak up pressure from the opposition.
I think Phillips is included ahead of both Diangana and Robinson because of the balance he provides the team. Especially when we have the enigmatic Pereira on the other flank. I cannot see Allardyce lining up with a side that exposes our full backs. If Pereira doesn’t get into position you have the energetic AMN or Gallagher who come across and make it a flat four. I don’t think we can afford to have two wide men with a lazy approach to defending.
Our method to survival is remaining in games, being compact and not opening ourselves up and I think we run that risk with Diangana and Robinson.
This seems to me like the correct call Liam. Phillips worked hard and didn't do a bad job in all honesty, especially in covering and supporting his full back. If he still had that little change of pace he once had, he might have set up a couple of chances with a quick decent cross but he tended to have to turn back and give to one of the supporting runners a lot yesterday.
On the other flank, two problems could be solved in one go by bringing Pereira back into the 10 role. This is where we get the best from him and nobody else is any better there. We might see this when Snodgrass is fit again and occupies that side and possibly AMN the other.
Also is it my imagination or does Diagne seem to get more chances with the ball coming in from the right?
We looked better when we were getting at Brighton and not giving them chance to settle. OK its a bit like a cup match and we were the lower league team, but if it has to be this way for the rest of this season and we get a few wins on the board then that's ok with me. We did get a bit more than our fair share of good fortune yesterday, but if it is true that it evens out over the season, we are still due a fair bit more yet.
I have always said I do not like Allardyce, and nothing has changed. I'm pleased with the new players now at the club, and the changes in organisation defensively have long been overdue, it did not take a genius to get this though. The real test now is to get the balance right and get the creativity and goal threat operating.
But whatever Allardyce does, the whole lot is such a short term fix, and by playing MP out of position and not giving Robinson, Diangana and even Grant some sort chance, all he is doing here is setting us up for a selling and transfer request frenzy for next season in the Championship.
Sincerely hope I'm completely wrong and that I am forced to write a humble and complete retraction at the end of the season. ATID COYB
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I dislike the football it is entirely soul destroying it is barely different from Pulisball. I don't accept that we as a club can't do better and without spending vast amounts of money on the team never have done never will do.
However it is entirely logical to play the most creative player we have, Pereira, out wide. If as a team we are largely progressing the ball down the wide channels then were we to play the same way (no we won't change that) he would see even less of the ball in the 10 slot (not really a role in Pulisball) and be even less effectual.
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I suspect Allerdyce has a man management challenge imminent, MP has been the main man since he walked in the door, to the extent that Bilic was building a team around him, now there is a new dynamic with MP being somewhat sacrificed to achieve allardyces blueprint, it remains to be seen how MP’s ego copes with this!
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I suspect Allerdyce has a man management challenge imminent, MP has been the main man since he walked in the door, to the extent that Bilic was building a team around him, now there is a new dynamic with MP being somewhat sacrificed to achieve allardyces blueprint, it remains to be seen how MP’s ego copes with this!
Wouldnt worry about it too much, he will be gone in the summer if we go down. If MP can't keep his toys in his pram for the sake of the team for 12 more games then sell him for the most we can get.
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I dislike the football it is entirely soul destroying it is barely different from Pulisball. I don't accept that we as a club can't do better and without spending vast amounts of money on the team never have done never will do.
However it is entirely logical to play the most creative player we have, Pereira, out wide. If as a team we are largely progressing the ball down the wide channels then were we to play the same way (no we won't change that) he would see even less of the ball in the 10 slot (not really a role in Pulisball) and be even less effectual.
Will not argue on the logic Standaman, both yourself and our manager have the same opinion, and both are more knowledgable than me. But I still think from entirely only my own observations on match days, MP plays better and more effectively when he has players either side of him. Probably not a straightforward 10, but definitely not out as wide as he is now. Also feel that MP is too important a footballer for us in future to be thrown away now and wasted by Sam (expletive deleted) Allardyce.
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Wouldnt worry about it too much, he will be gone in the summer if we go down. If MP can't keep his toys in his pram for the sake of the team for 12 more games then sell him for the most we can get.
And replace him with?
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Wasn't Pereira nominated for player of the month under Allardyce?
He was poor yesterday but it was more to do with his touch and composure than his position. Yes, he should be in the 10 but, he is good enough to play anywhere.
We have been devoid of confidence all season and what breeds confidence? Winning, that's what. We have another 2 home games coming up and I'm finally looking forward to them with a bit of hope. Win another couple and who knows?
I'm no Allardyce fan but I am an Albion fan and I will always be happier when we win, so I have had a very enjoyable weekend.
:D
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And replace him with?
Ask Dowling mate. His fingers on the pulse.
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Ask Dowling mate. His fingers on the pulse.
When did you start putting your trust in Dowling Gaz or have I missed something? ;) Think he has already 'monitored' every UK player by now anyway has he not?
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Wasn't Pereira nominated for player of the month under Allardyce?
He was poor yesterday but it was more to do with his touch and composure than his position. Yes, he should be in the 10 but, he is good enough to play anywhere.
We have been devoid of confidence all season and what breeds confidence? Winning, that's what. We have another 2 home games coming up and I'm finally looking forward to them with a bit of hope. Win another couple and who knows?
I'm no Allardyce fan but I am an Albion fan and I will always be happier when we win, so I have had a very enjoyable weekend.
:D
You have convinced me settee feet.
Roll on Everton, we were doing ok against these till Gibbs went stupid, We can do it again. COYB
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When did you start putting your trust in Dowling Gaz or have I missed something? ;) Think he has already 'monitored' every UK player by now anyway has he not?
Sorry was being a gimp and trying to make it light hearted that Dowling wouldn't know how but hasn't come across well ;D
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You have convinced me settee feet.
Roll on Everton, we were doing ok against these till Gibbs went stupid, We can do it again. COYB
Why not? We've drawn with Liverpool, Man U, Man City and Chelsea, why can't we compete with Everton on the back of a win.
I think we have become that despondent that we've forgotten how to enjoy a win and embrace the hope it brings.
Whether we admit it or not, until it's mathematically impossible, we all have that little flicker of faith, doesn't matter who the manger is or if we like him.
A football fan without hope, is not a football fan, they are just a normal, boring human being!
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A football fan without hope, is not a football fan, they are baggies :D
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The football under Bilic this season was genuinely awful, the only time we looked even half way solid was against top teams when we had everyone back in defence.I really don't see criticism of the football under Allardyce as reasonable, we actually look a bit better nowadays then we did most the season seeing as we now have a functioning central midfield.
Lets see how the rest of the season goes, if he can average over a point a game from the end of the January transfer window, i'd keep him on if he wants it. The squad till that point was truly awful and even now it is a long way from premier league quality but at least he fixed the most glaring issues.
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If periera can't defend at wide left and ANM ends up out there why not just start ANM at wide left and put periera back in the hole?
I guess yesterday was such a must win that we were more pragmatic
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Cheers, maybe. It was a tad concerning to see us sit right in as soon we'd scored in the first half. Lead to some needless corners, to Gallagher challenging them 20 yards out rather than 40 yards out and to their first pen. I'm just happy we got the three points ultimately. I also thought justice was done with the free kick farce and Lee Mason seemed to know he'd made a right mess of it all. Remember the great escape season and Everton at home? Campbell scored and we beat them 2-0. Massive result. We need the same spirit on Thursday.
We beat Everton 1-0 at home that season, Gera scored.
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The football under Bilic this season was genuinely awful, the only time we looked even half way solid was against top teams when we had everyone back in defence.I really don't see criticism of the football under Allardyce as reasonable, we actually look a bit better nowadays then we did most the season seeing as we now have a functioning central midfield.
Lets see how the rest of the season goes, if he can average over a point a game from the end of the January transfer window, i'd keep him on if he wants it. The squad till that point was truly awful and even now it is a long way from premier league quality but at least he fixed the most glaring issues.
Agree with this entirely Dan. Bilic’s team was an absolute shambles - and had been for almost a year. We could barely win games in the Championship after Christmas, let alone the EPL.
And now people are looking for evidence to support their pre-conceived negative prejudgements about Allardyce.
It’s not complicated - what he’s trying to do is somehow get results from a very weak team. That’s his job and history shows he’s very good at it.
I’m totally fed up with the anti-Allardyce prejudice, which like most forms of prejudice strikes me as ignorant and unthinking. We’re a pretty rotten team, and he’s doing his best to make some sort of silk purse out of it.
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Big Sam, he'll do for me, football is better than under Bilic, the results are better as well.
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Will not argue on the logic Standaman, both yourself and our manager have the same opinion, and both are more knowledgable than me. But I still think from entirely only my own observations on match days, MP plays better and more effectively when he has players either side of him. Probably not a straightforward 10, but definitely not out as wide as he is now. Also feel that MP is too important a footballer for us in future to be thrown away now and wasted by Sam (expletive deleted) Allardyce.
I agree with you Wodenson. I get Stan’s logic 100% and I’d imagine Allardyce feels having Pereira out wide and AMN in the middle makes us a more solid unit, but Pereira is wasted out wide. His best performances this season came last month, played centrally with options around him to make passes to.
On Saturday, he was off his game but how much of that is down to him having his natural game restrained? There is a fair counter argument that we need to do what is right for the team rather than for Pereira and while we should have conceded a number of goals vs Brighton, the stats currently show 1 goal conceded in 3 games with 5 points from 3, but if we switched Pereira and AMN, my gut instinct is that it would improve the team over all and give us a better chance of picking up the wins (not draws) that we need.
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We beat Everton 1-0 at home that season, Gera scored.
Correct, I'd mixed up Everton with Man City in the great escape season. We need some of that resilience this week. The January signings, have definitely brought some much needed leadership and character into the team. Win these next two and the confidence in the team will sky rocket. Back to back wins will also crank up the pressure on the teams above us.
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If periera can't defend at wide left and ANM ends up out there why not just start ANM at wide left and put periera back in the hole?
I guess yesterday was such a must win that we were more pragmatic
The side is now more solid. Yokuslu is a major factor but not the only one. Gallagher and AMN both play a big role with their work rate, decent quality and energy for forward runs. We now have a guts to the midfield. If we moved Pereira back to No 10 and put AMN out wide it changes that dynamic again. It would suit Pereira but we'd lose that improved engine room.
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Will not argue on the logic Standaman, both yourself and our manager have the same opinion, and both are more knowledgable than me. But I still think from entirely only my own observations on match days, MP plays better and more effectively when he has players either side of him. Probably not a straightforward 10, but definitely not out as wide as he is now. Also feel that MP is too important a footballer for us in future to be thrown away now and wasted by Sam (expletive deleted) Allardyce.
It is logical but only in the context of the way Allardyce approaches the game. Personally I wouldn't want to play that way and part of the reason is because coaches like Allardyce consistently fail to get the most out of the creative players they have at their disposal. I don't buy a ticket to watch someone work hard.
There are all sorts of tactical variations that would get more out of Pereira but none that Allardyce is likely to adopt he is more likely to not play him at all.
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It is logical but only in the context of the way Allardyce approaches the game. Personally I wouldn't want to play that way and part of the reason is because coaches like Allardyce consistently fail to get the most out of the creative players they have at their disposal. I don't buy a ticket to watch someone work hard.
There are all sorts of tactical variations that would get more out of Pereira but none that Allardyce is likely to adopt he is more likely to not play him at all.
Exactly, with SA (and TP) it's all about nullifying the opposition rather than focussing and utilising your own strengths.
SA introduced flair with Okocha and Djorkaeff but that was a very long time ago. The recurring theme at other clubs has generally been about style of play, with SA countering he hasn't had enough money to build a stylish footballing team.
Right now he's gone down the Fireman Sam route with Pereira wide, Phillips preferred to Diangana and even HRK with Robinson left on the bench. It's not a ringing endorsement that he can play attractive football.
For now if we can get an upward trajectory on results it's fine. I don't think anyone expects to finish higher than 19th.
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Big Sam, he'll do for me, football is better than under Bilic, the results are better as well.
I'm not sure the football is better and we've certainly taken a few hammerings but Bilic got 7 points from 13 games, Allardyce has got us 10 points from 13 games.
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I would argue Allardyce has had a significant amount of good luck, where Bilic had several slices of bad luck,
BUT, the saying is you make your own luck, so maybe Allardyces tactics err on the margins where, if you get no luck and are hammered or some luck gets you a result.
Or its not luck and I just know #### all ......
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People were harshly judging him whilst he was using another managers players. He finally got the opportunity to bring in some of his own, and I am talking some as I am sure there are so many other issues he would wish to address, and all of a sudden we are competitive again. Comes as no surprise, he is a good manager, I liked Bilic but Allardyce is a level up from him and we were lucky to get him, it's just a shame it was after we had wasted the summer window.
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It's not Allardyce that has improved the results, it's the new players. Okay in particular. If Bilic had been given another dozen games and the January window, do you really think the same or similar players wouldn't have been brought in?
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It's not Allardyce that has improved the results, it's the new players. Okay in particular. If Bilic had been given another dozen games and the January window, do you really think the same or similar players wouldn't have been brought in?
No. I think we would have seen a new CH and maybe fullbacks but pretty nailed on Livermore would still be a permanent fixture.
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It's not Allardyce that has improved the results, it's the new players. Okay in particular. If Bilic had been given another dozen games and the January window, do you really think the same or similar players wouldn't have been brought in?
Yes, I really think they wouldn't.
Bilic in three transfer windows did not look to bring in a defensive midfielder in the mould of Okay and he was hell bent on bringing in Grant not Diagne as far as I could see.
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With regards to football, haven't been overly impressed by either, Southampton, Leicester, Fulham, Burnley, Brighton first half were awful.
The new signings have made a massive impact. We look fairly solid, and carry a bit more of a threat going forward .
We now have a midfield with energy and fight.
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It's not Allardyce that has improved the results, it's the new players. Okay in particular. If Bilic had been given another dozen games and the January window, do you really think the same or similar players wouldn't have been brought in?
Not into slagging Bilic off but I'm pretty sure we'd still be rotating Sawyers , Krov , Livermore and CG .
Forgetting the heart warming last stand at Man City Bilic looked a broken man , I think he'd have walked eventually .
I don't think I'll ever warm to Allardyce the person but he saw and changed a huge hole in this side , I blame Dowling for that too not just Bilic .
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It's not Allardyce that has improved the results, it's the new players. Okay in particular. If Bilic had been given another dozen games and the January window, do you really think the same or similar players wouldn't have been brought in?
The new players that were identified by Allardyce though.
Bilic didn't address any of the real issues with the squad in his time at the club...those issues being a lack of a decent goal scorer and a lack of a proper DM.
Fritzl Palace has summed it up perfectly below.
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Not into slagging Bilic off but I'm pretty sure we'd still be rotating Sawyers , Krov , Livermore and CG .
Forgetting the heart warming last stand at Man City Bilic looked a broken man , I think he'd have walked eventually .
I don't think I'll ever warm to Allardyce the person but he saw and changed a huge hole in this side , I blame Dowling for that too not just Bilic .
Correct that Allardyce spotted a glaring problem, we could all see it yet Bilic did nothing to correct the major problem in midfield. Pity we couldn't have got these new players in earlier.
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It is logical but only in the context of the way Allardyce approaches the game. Personally I wouldn't want to play that way and part of the reason is because coaches like Allardyce consistently fail to get the most out of the creative players they have at their disposal. I don't buy a ticket to watch someone work hard.
There are all sorts of tactical variations that would get more out of Pereira but none that Allardyce is likely to adopt he is more likely to not play him at all.
Strangely enough, I've seen football bloggers make the argument that Allardyce is a bit unique amongst the regimented defensive manager carousel in that he will actually build his team around a creative player and adapt his systems to fit them in.
That certainly seemed to be the case in late Jan with Pereira playing centrally and getting the nomination for premier league player of the month.
It's only since we signed AMN, Yokuslu and Snodgrass that we have seen Pereira pushed out wide - something that was always a risk when signing all 3.
I still hope Allardyce might revert Pereira to a role behind Diagne with AMN play8ng a wider rope but it feels unlikely.
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It is logical but only in the context of the way Allardyce approaches the game. Personally I wouldn't want to play that way and part of the reason is because coaches like Allardyce consistently fail to get the most out of the creative players they have at their disposal. I don't buy a ticket to watch someone work hard.
There are all sorts of tactical variations that would get more out of Pereira but none that Allardyce is likely to adopt he is more likely to not play him at all.
As is so often the case I find myself now in agreement with you on this issue Standaman.
Probably came to a similar conclusion via a slightly different route, but it also concerns me that it might be a 'my way or no way' situation being developed at the expense of one our most talented players. This cannot be good management.
Just for the sake of the Allardyce v Bilic crowd, I would have exactly the same concerns, whoever was in charge, that they were not prepared to try to get the best out of any of our better players.
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What I'd say is that Bilic got higher possession stats from a team that were inferior to the one Allardyce now has. We were playing higher up the pitch before.
Throughout the season, people have made constant reference to Dowling being responsible for signings and not the Manager. It's swings & roundabouts - Pereira VFM, Grant not VFM.
Some people have lauded Allardyce for these January signings, but had Bilic lasted we may have signed them under him?
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Strangely enough, I've seen football bloggers make the argument that Allardyce is a bit unique amongst the regimented defensive manager carousel in that he will actually build his team around a creative player and adapt his systems to fit them in.
That certainly seemed to be the case in late Jan with Pereira playing centrally and getting the nomination for premier league player of the month.
It's only since we signed AMN, Yokuslu and Snodgrass that we have seen Pereira pushed out wide - something that was always a risk when signing all 3.
I still hope Allardyce might revert Pereira to a role behind Diagne with AMN play8ng a wider rope but it feels unlikely.
I too think Pereira is wasted out wide, which makes me think, was the deal with AMN one to play him on the inside of the midfield? AMN should be pleased to seemingly be a permanent fixture in midfield, but its a bit of an ask to expect to always play in the middle of the midfielders. Gallagher is also much more effective inside, so that means AMN has to go wider.
It does pain me to say it, as I'm a great believer in natural wingers, but maybe we have to make do without one and rely on Furlong and Townsend to give some natural width and crosses. But we have to try and get around the opposition full backs which I'm not so sure they can do.
Final point about Diagne. He looks to have good anticipation but the service he's been getting has been poor. I think this is where SA's tactics are letting him down, as there are too few moves building through the midfield. Trying to make something from panicky 30 metre punts up the field is not what most would call service. He should be getting more than 1 or 2 proper chances a game. He needs shorter passes into feet which he can use himself to get shots in, or to play in others making runs. For that to happen, the midfield must be much closer to him.
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What I'd say is that Bilic got higher possession stats from a team that were inferior to the one Allardyce now has. We were playing higher up the pitch before.
Throughout the season, people have made constant reference to Dowling being responsible for signings and not the Manager. It's swings & roundabouts - Pereira VFM, Grant not VFM.
Some people have lauded Allardyce for these January signings, but had Bilic lasted we may have signed them under him?
Not likely though. Bilic had 2 previous windows to bring in a DM and didn't. He could have brought in a proper centre forward in the Summer but chose to go for another wide man cum forward.
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Saturday's game was one of the poorest I've seen in this mini revival that our counter attacking was abysmal. Looked from where I was sat that our passing had alot to be desired 60 plus percent accuracy if you believe the stats. My only crumb of comfort is that even with these stats and everything that went on in game we still got three points.
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Sorry was being a gimp and trying to make it light hearted that Dowling wouldn't know how but hasn't come across well ;D
I read it the way you intended mate and tried to respond in a similar lighthearted manner. Guess I'd better put me career of writing for stand up on hold. ;D
\Still with you on the Dowling case though, most important recruitment for years coming up and all we have is him. Not going to condemn out of hand, we all understand it can be difficult, but I'm very, very worried.
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Not likely though. Bilic had 2 previous windows to bring in a DM and didn't. He could have brought in a proper centre forward in the Summer but chose to go for another wide man cum forward.
Depends what his budget was? Or do you think he'd still be buying attacking midfielders throughout another January transfer window? I can't see that myself.
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Depends what his budget was? Or do you think he'd still be buying attacking midfielders throughout another January transfer window? I can't see that myself.
Can only base it on the facts at hand and, after three transfer windows under Bilic, Livermore and Sawyers continued to be our central midfield pairing.
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I read it the way you intended mate and tried to respond in a similar lighthearted manner. Guess I'd better put me career of writing for stand up on hold. ;D
\Still with you on the Dowling case though, most important recruitment for years coming up and all we have is him. Not going to condemn out of hand, we all understand it can be difficult, but I'm very, very worried.
I think it's fair to be worried. He has a lot of money at his disposal soon. HIs past record isnt great at all!
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Allardyce's style is more pragmatic and not as "attractive" as other teams. To be honest though points are more important than style at this stage, as a short term appointment I wouldn't expect anyone to be Man City mark 2.
In previous short term appointments in the prem under Moore and in the champ under Shan we were hardly expansive. When they came in they did what they needed to in order to get results. When Moore was planning for his season in the championship I remember the big debate about whether he would stay pragmatic and defensive or bring in a more expansive style....enter Graeme Jones.
I also don't think we were that attractive or swashbuckling under Bilic, we had a bit more of the ball but we played well for 20 minute spells not full games. Watching us away at Fulham, Southampton, Newcastle and home to Palace, Leicester and even Sheff Utd and Burnley was hardly Brazil 1970.
I would prefer a more attractive style but that would involve courage in appointing someone and then following it up with an appointment with a similar philosophy. I don't think we can see beyond the next 6 months at the Albion.
As an aside I don't understand the "Allardyce doesn't like flair players" argument. Doesn't seem to be reflective of his managerial history.
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People were harshly judging him whilst he was using another managers players. He finally got the opportunity to bring in some of his own, and I am talking some as I am sure there are so many other issues he would wish to address, and all of a sudden we are competitive again. Comes as no surprise, he is a good manager, I liked Bilic but Allardyce is a level up from him and we were lucky to get him, it's just a shame it was after we had wasted the summer window.
The whole idea of bringing in a new manager is to get a bounce(see Nigel Pearson at Bristol City) Sam was unable to achieve this and we were more or less relegated the week we got mullered by Leeds and Arsenal.In my eyes he was brought in to do a job and he messed it up in the first few weeks.We really need to get away from employing these dinosaur coaches take a look at how well Barnsley are doing under Valerien Ismael and then maybe we wouldn't need to make such a fuss over a fluke victory against the plastic Albion.
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What evidence do you have that Allardyce doesn't get perfomances out of talented players like Pereira?
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I'm not sure the football is better and we've certainly taken a few hammerings but Bilic got 7 points from 13 games, Allardyce has got us 10 points from 13 games.
If I had to watch Sawyer's one more time I would have smashed the TV!
Football is better because we carry some threat and we have a midfield.
Nothing pleasant about watching your midfield completely over run. It's embarrassing.
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The new players that were identified by Allardyce though.
That's irrelevant, because exactly who the players are isn't relevant, only the roles they play and that they're good enough.
Bilic didn't address any of the real issues with the squad in his time at the club...those issues being a lack of a decent goal scorer and a lack of a proper DM.
The issues didn't really become critical though until the players that got us promoted were found out at the higher level. Bilic wasn't given the opportunity to fix that.
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The new players that were identified by Allardyce though.
Bilic didn't address any of the real issues with the squad in his time at the club...those issues being a lack of a decent goal scorer and a lack of a proper DM.
Fritzl Palace has summed it up perfectly below.
Do you really think that an ex manager who had been out of the game for 2 1/2 years "identified the new players".
I could buy, that he identified the positions, but I have real doubts that he identified the individuals.
I believe the players would have been sourced by the DoF's team.
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The whole idea of bringing in a new manager is to get a bounce(see Nigel Pearson at Bristol City) Sam was unable to achieve this and we were more or less relegated the week we got mullered by Leeds and Arsenal.In my eyes he was brought in to do a job and he messed it up in the first few weeks.We really need to get away from employing these dinosaur coaches take a look at how well Barnsley are doing under Valerien Ismael and then maybe we wouldn't need to make such a fuss over a fluke victory against the plastic Albion.
The players he had at is disposal messed it up. A bit of a difference now.
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Do you really think that an ex manager who had been out of the game for 2 1/2 years "identified the new players".
I could buy, that he identified the positions, but I have real doubts that he identified the individuals.
I believe the players would have been sourced by the DoF's team.
The signings are almost certainly agent lead.
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The signings are almost certainly agent lead.
If so, then this debate will go off on a tangent. It’s certainly not beyond the realms of belief that managers have their chosen agents, regardless of a clubs recruitment policy.
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Do you really think that an ex manager who had been out of the game for 2 1/2 years "identified the new players".
I could buy, that he identified the positions, but I have real doubts that he identified the individuals.
I believe the players would have been sourced by the DoF's team.
should have put type of player, my mistake.
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That's irrelevant, because exactly who the players are isn't relevant, only the roles they play and that they're good enough.
The issues didn't really become critical though until the players that got us promoted were found out at the higher level. Bilic wasn't given the opportunity to fix that.
It isn't irrelevant that Allardyce recognised where we were weak and brought in the players to fill those rolls. Something Bilic failed to do.
As to your second point, well we limped to promotion with mostly underwhelming performances since Jan 2020 so why would Bilic think the same group of players would be able to cut it in the PL?
Seems like Bilic was the only person who couldn't see that we needed a dm and a centre forward.
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it has been suggested that after 2/12 years oput of game would preclude Sam's knowledge of the game.
I don't accept this.
On these pages I suggested we buy Antonio before he went to W.Ham and we buy Harry Mcguire for about £6M 6months before he went to Leicester for double that price.
Thats not being clever but just watching football either live or on TV.
Surely Sam would keep his eye on players and think he could do a job for me if I get back into football.
He is a professional and would automattically make notes of such players.
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it has been suggested that after 2/12 years oput of game would preclude Sam's knowledge of the game.
I don't accept this.
On these pages I suggested we buy Antonio before he went to W.Ham and we buy Harry Mcguire for about £6M 6months before he went to Leicester for double that price.
Thats not being clever but just watching football either live or on TV.
Surely Sam would keep his eye on players and think he could do a job for me if I get back into football.
He is a professional and would automattically make notes of such players.
Most professional clubs at elite level have databases of players, & agents, together with scouting networks.
The days of Managers identifying individual players are long gone.
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Most professional clubs at elite level have databases of players, & agents, together with scouting networks.
The days of Managers identifying individual players are long gone.
Not at the level of years ago but they still do , for instance Bilic picked both Pereira and Krov .
I believe Allardyce probably had final say on these new players but the selection would have been very limited anyway in terms of players willing to come , just guessing but AMN was most likely more his than the other two not including Snodgrass IMO .
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Not at the level of years ago but they still do , for instance Bilic picked both Pereira and Krov .
I believe Allardyce probably had final say on these new players but the selection would have been very limited anyway in terms of players willing to come , just guessing but AMN was most likely more his than the other two not including Snodgrass IMO .
Yes, I'd go along with that.
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It isn't irrelevant that Allardyce recognised where we were weak and brought in the players to fill those rolls. Something Bilic failed to do.
You have no way of knowing whether Bilic failed to recognise that we needed players in those roles, unless you're a mind reader.
As to your second point, well we limped to promotion with mostly underwhelming performances since Jan 2020 so why would Bilic think the same group of players would be able to cut it in the PL?
You're choosing to ignore the period before that when the performances were not "underwhelming".
Seems like Bilic was the only person who couldn't see that we needed a dm and a centre forward.
Again, I don't believe you can read Bilics' mind.
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You have no way of knowing whether Bilic failed to recognise that we needed players in those roles, unless you're a mind reader.
You're choosing to ignore the period before that when the performances were not "underwhelming".
Again, I don't believe you can read Bilics' mind.
The fact remains that there was a significant period of underwhelming performances, all of which carried on through to this season.
The fact he never sorted those positions after 18 months in charge kind of points to the fact that he never ‘recognised’ we needed players in those roles
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Holy Christ, I didn't realise this was the "Allardyce Vs Bilic" thread.
In a couple of weeks it will be four mo this since he left. When do we stop with the comparisons.
I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but he isn't coming back. He nearly walked out on us earlier on, so I think the bridges are burnt.
I don't like Allardyce, I don't like his football, I don't really like him based on what he represents in the game, bit he's our manager and I will use this thread to discuss HIM. Bilic is history. I suggest others do the same and move on. Or shall we start comparing Allardyce to Alan Irvine and Roberto Di Matteo, seeing as they go sacked partway through Premier League campaigns too?
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I was wondering when somebody would snap ;D .
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You have no way of knowing whether Bilic failed to recognise that we needed players in those roles, unless you're a mind reader.
You're choosing to ignore the period before that when the performances were not "underwhelming".
Again, I don't believe you can read Bilics' mind.
Not once were we linked with a DM, don't need to be a mind reader to see what's clear.
The good performances are irrelevant as we were talking about the extended run of poor/ underwhelming form of the players at the back end of the last season which continued into this season....begging the question why did Bilic think it was going to be okay with the same players?
Anyway as Mark W has said this is the Allardyce thread not the Allardyce Vs Bilic thread.
Allardyce has got players in that he can make work to our advantage, a little too late for the position we find ourselves in, but performances have improved to the point where they might be a thin chink of light showing at the end of the tunnel.
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The fact remains that there was a significant period of underwhelming performances, all of which carried on through to this season.
The fact he never sorted those positions after 18 months in charge kind of points to the fact that he never ‘recognised’ we needed players in those roles
No, all it shows is that we didn't recruit players in those positions. Nobody outside the club, and probably only a very small number of people there, know who we try to get in.
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Not once were we linked with a DM
Big deal. Sometimes our recruitment is public, sometimes players join come as a surprise. You've no idea, any more than I do, what players we tried to recruit and were unsuccessful.
The good performances are irrelevant
Oh goody.
Allardyce has got players in that he can make work to our advantage, a little too late for the position we find ourselves in, but performances have improved to the point where they might be a thin chink of light showing at the end of the tunnel.
"The good performance are irrelevant."
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Big deal. Sometimes our recruitment is public, sometimes players join come as a surprise. You've no idea, any more than I do, what players we tried to recruit and were unsuccessful.
Oh goody.
"The good performance are irrelevant."
They are irrelevant when the performances after are well and truly bad with no sign of improvement. However going from bad performances to better ones are relevant because they show the improvement.
3 transfer windows and no sign of looking to put in place the players we had been lacking for a number of years.
Allardyce had one, a few weeks prior to assess and then saw what every fan had been seeing and made the correct changes.
Not sure what point you’re trying to make here to be honest
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I was wondering when somebody would snap ;D .
Cant blame him. I'm sick of hearing about Bilic. He's gone (deservedly), and he isnt coming back. I wish some people would get over it and stop boring the rest of us.
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I've never known anything like this, RDM got us promoted, in better style, and had a better PL record when dismissed, there was none of this Stockholm Syndrome that has afflicted some posters who are coming across more as Bilić fans than Albion fans.
Move on lads.
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It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.......
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Cant blame him. I'm sick of hearing about Bilic. He's gone (deservedly), and he isnt coming back. I wish some people would get over it and stop boring the rest of us.
Same here, he did ok, but, let's face facts, managing Albion in the Championship is not a difficult job! Since our first promotion to the prem, we have never finished outside the play offs.
What he failed to do was recognise the glaring changes required to have a tilt at the Prem, nor did he have a clear playing style. Yes he had a stupid budget, but, his previous experience should have prepared him better.
Allardyce, love him or loathe him, came in with a clear game plan and, even though the start was disastrous, he stuck with it. He then addressed the obvious deficiencies within the 1st 11.
Bilic may flatter to deceive in terms of style and charisma but Allardyce wins hands down when it comes to experience and tactical nous.
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Same here, he did ok, but, let's face facts, managing Albion in the Championship is not a difficult job! Since our first promotion to the prem, we have never finished outside the play offs.
What he failed to do was recognise the glaring changes required to have a tilt at the Prem, nor did he have a clear playing style. Yes he had a stupid budget, but, his previous experience should have prepared him better.
Allardyce, love him or loathe him, came in with a clear game plan and, even though the start was disastrous, he stuck with it. He then addressed the obvious deficiencies within the 1st 11.
Bilic may flatter to deceive in terms of style and charisma but Allardyce wins hands down when it comes to experience and tactical nous.
I hear what you say and agree that there is an improvement now. Very hard though to forgive those collapses against Leeds and Arsenal to name but two, and indeed the awful in game management that so cost us at Bramall Lane.
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The 'Cult of Bilic' is still alive and well with some WBA fans i see. Very sad reading.
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It seems to me, and I don't really care enough set up a qualitative analysis grid, to verify or disprove my observation, that it is the most 'anti Bilic', 'all for Allardyce' supporters who 'protesteth too much'. They seem to feel that they have to jump to defend Allardyce, at every opportunity whilst at the same time denigrating anything that can be connected with Bilic. I'm not saying that I support either side, in this, merely making an observation. However I do include the caveat that I do not like Allardyce, but this does not preclude me from hoping that he can provide the conduit for the miracle(s) needed to keep us up, and to prepare for a more successful season next year regardless of league position.
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The whole Bilic v Allardyce debate is one boring subject on a par with the Celtic/ Rangers and the sitting/standing debates we had to ban from the site.
At the end of the day Bilic is gone and Allardyce is here like it or not, some do, some don't but he's here until the end of the season at least so how about once again we request that people keep this topic to the bloke who's name is in the subject box?
If people really want to compare the two then start a new subject and those members who are sick of the comparison can avoid it.
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Hear hear!! Let’s discuss the present.
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are we getting presents?? :o
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are we getting presents?? :o
. Big Sam 😊
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Thought we played some nice football tonight and I loved that Sam was playing it to a quality player in Okay who didn't seem to miss a pass from the back. Shame that it looks like we will come up short this season.
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are we getting presents?? :o
There’s only one present. I hope you enjoyed it☺ï¸
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He has us looking like a half decent prem team now, instead of an out of their depth championship one. Hope he stays for the champ.
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He has us looking like a half decent prem team now, instead of an out of their depth championship one. Hope he stays for the champ.
my thinking also, played some nice stuff wasn't hoof ball and he might be able to persuade Okay and Diagne to join on permanent. Probably would over rule some of Dowlings targets in Summer.
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I really ant him to stay and continue the improvement, never thought id say it but its there for all to see, especially the organisation.
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Definite improvements and the style of football tonight looked good to me. Johnstone often rolling the ball out, playing through midfield. Clearly we lacked the cutting edge and I think Pereira misses having a runner in front of him, but certainly a better performance. Can’t believe I’m saying this, but if today was an indication of a future style I’m fine with it.
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Agree with all of this Frazzle. Like what I'm seeing from the team, but unfortunately it won't be ours for long enough. Sort of happy and ****** off at the same time. Ought to be our future but will all too soon be our past. Just hope that if we cannot keep what we have, we can at least find similar style and quality replacements.
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You only have to see the players that are now on the bench as opposed to starting to see that Big Sam knows what he’s dong !
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The 'Cult of Bilic' is still alive and well with some WBA fans i see. Very sad reading.
I really liked him - still do - but I can see the impact that Sam has made and I've moved on. We all should. Look forwards.
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I really liked him - still do - but I can see the impact that Sam has made and I've moved on. We all should. Look forwards.
Agreed. We all need to move on. He's been and he's gone. He's not god nor the devil.
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I thought tonight was our best defensive performance at home so far under Allardyce. We looked solid and limited Everton to a few chances. We also passed it decent at tines. Just a shame we couldn't put more pressure on their back line and work their keeper more. Overall we were unlucky to lose and I can't fault the set-up - save for we should have gone at them and been more aggressive quicker, once we went behind.
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I thought tonight was our best defensive performance at home so far under Allardyce. We looked solid and limited Everton to a few chances. We also passed it decent at tines. Just a shame we couldn't put more pressure on their back line and work their keeper more. Overall we were unlucky to lose and I can't fault the set-up - save for we should have gone at them and been more aggressive quicker, once we went behind.
Spot on. And Everton are actually a very decent side. If this is “hoofball†then it’s fine by me. This squad and this manager from the start of the season would have had every chance of finishing around 14/15th. I’m convinced we’d be 10-12 points better off right now.
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We were doomed to relegation the day we were promoted due to the lack of sufficient investment in the squad and the final nail in the coffin was the appointment of Allardyce.
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I for one will be disappointed if Big Sam isn't our Head Coach next season, regardless of the division we are in, my opinion.
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Can't take to him as a person , I find his Albion media stuff almost bitter . After a shocking start he's really turned the corner with the players in terms of new and old , we now have a side that can play a bit and scrap if they have to .
Stopping up is a long shot now because goals are a issue but given we have nobody with any footballing knowledge other than Dowling :o I'd be having a quiet word in Allardyce's ear about next season .
Still don't get the Phillips thing but thats just my view .
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Spot on. And Everton are actually a very decent side. If this is “hoofball†then it’s fine by me. This squad and this manager from the start of the season would have had every chance of finishing around 14/15th. I’m convinced we’d be 10-12 points better off right now.
Agree with you there. I was watching last night and thinking about some of the comments on here regarding the 'Allardyce style' of play. That was a solid performance from us against a useful team with quality running through them. If we can take that into the next few games this could get very interesting......
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Can't take to him as a person , I find his Albion media stuff almost bitter . After a shocking start he's really turned the corner with the players in terms of new and old , we now have a side that can play a bit and scrap if they have to .
Stopping up is a long shot now because goals are a issue but given we have nobody with any footballing knowledge other than Dowling :o I'd be having a quiet word in Allardyce's ear about next season .
Still don't get the Phillips thing but thats just my view .
He looked really deflated on Albion TV. I can understand why though - for as good as we played we’ve walked away with nothing.
Given the question marks over Dowling I would not be adverse to seeing Sam here next season. He at least helps cover up for some of Dowling glaring weaknesses.
There was a lot of stuff written about style of football but last night was very good - I wouldn’t have any issues watching that every week.
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The football last night was excellent.
Best I’ve seen for a long time. Such a shame it resulted in 0 points.
Sam has us looking like a good side
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He looked really deflated on Albion TV. I can understand why though - for as good as we played we’ve walked away with nothing.
Given the question marks over Dowling I would not be adverse to seeing Sam here next season. He at least helps cover up for some of Dowling glaring weaknesses.
There was a lot of stuff written about style of football but last night was very good - I wouldn’t have any issues watching that every week.
Going on what we've seen since the loan players arrived Allardyce isn't just limited to either defending and fighting or trying to play . Many Albion managers have come unstuck on that eventually .
The media thing wasn't just last night , I do find him a bit off but if he's doing a job I can lump it .
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We were doomed to relegation the day we were promoted due to the lack of sufficient investment in the squad and the final nail in the coffin was the appointment of Allardyce.
The biggest problem was the lack of investment in the summer, I always thought we would be relegated given the squad we had available.
My issue with the appointment of Allardyce was the short term knee jerk reaction, the club should now make a statement as regards his long term future as next season will be critical.
If that means Allardyce is is given a three year contract so be it, at least we would have some direction for a change.
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The biggest problem was the lack of investment in the summer, I always thought we would be relegated given the squad we had available.
My issue with the appointment of Allardyce was the short term knee jerk reaction, the club should now make a statement as regards his long term future as next season will be critical.
If that means Allardyce is is given a three year contract so be it, at least we would have some direction for a change.
When Allardyce was interviewed, outside the Hawthorns, on day 1, he was adamant it was an 18 month contract. When pushed about a clause he pretty much told the reporter to button it, it was 18 months and that's it!
I'm sure there is a clause but this suggested that Allardyce was here next season whatever happened.
A few weeks ago the thought of him in the Champ would have made my teeth itch but, after last night, it doesn't seem so horrible. Depends which way we go now, as last night pretty much shut the survival door, so, will we play a bit more freely and continue to improve or will we shrink back into our shell and get rolled over every week. This reaction will determine if he stays or goes, in my view.
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When Allardyce was interviewed, outside the Hawthorns, on day 1, he was adamant it was an 18 month contract. When pushed about a clause he pretty much told the reporter to button it, it was 18 months and that's it!
I'm sure there is a clause but this suggested that Allardyce was here next season whatever happened.
A few weeks ago the thought of him in the Champ would have made my teeth itch but, after last night, it doesn't seem so horrible. Depends which way we go now, as last night pretty much shut the survival door, so, will we play a bit more freely and continue to improve or will we shrink back into our shell and get rolled over every week. This reaction will determine if he stays or goes, in my view.
I am perfectly happy to see BS here next season. I am hoping he can keep hold of Okay and Diagne, but if not then I am confident that he will have the cohonas to move a few on and build from there.
For me he has highlighted what a poor team we were beforehand.
I will admit that I was not a fan and wanted him nowhere near the club, but I am sort of converted. When I sit down and think about it, no one manager springs to mind that will transform us, particularly with the complete lack of funds available. Its easy to say names but do they want to come to the Albion, and are they available more to the point? This is the real world and not Fantasy Football manager.
So I hope he is here next season, regardless of the division.
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A Sunderland mate of mine says he gets to know the players individually, gets them each on proper fitness and diet for them personally, but does it "with" them not "at" them and for someone of his generation knows the detail and science very well indeed. The grumpy old codger act is mostly for the media.
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A Sunderland mate of mine says he gets to know the players individually, gets them each on proper fitness and diet for them personally, but does it "with" them not "at" them and for someone of his generation knows the detail and science very well indeed. The grumpy old codger act is mostly for the media.
I said on another thread that they looker fitter under BS, so your mate seems to be spot on with that.
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The whole Bilic v Allardyce debate is one boring subject on a par with the Celtic/ Rangers and the sitting/standing debates we had to ban from the site.
At the end of the day Bilic is gone and Allardyce is here like it or not, some do, some don't but he's here until the end of the season at least so how about once again we request that people keep this topic to the bloke who's name is in the subject box?
If people really want to compare the two then start a new subject and those members who are sick of the comparison can avoid it.
I am so pleased you said this. Allardyce must be judged on his own merits what he says, what he does, his team selections and tactics. Enough time has elapsed from the Bilic era and he has had enough time to impose his ideas.
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To me our style of play and overall commitment has improved dramatically since our January transfer dealings . The big problem to me is if Big Sam isn’t here next season , because I think an incoming manager would probably revert to using a number of those who no longer regularly start !
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Am not sure Allardyce will be here next season if we get relegated. To me there is something missing from his demeanour on the touch line when comparing to what he was like at previous clubs . It maybe just COVID concerns , lack of crowds etc but he just doesn’t seem to have much enthusiasm. He used to stand on the touch line and be as intimidating to officials as Fergie in his pomp
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Am not sure Allardyce will be here next season if we get relegated. To me there is something missing from his demeanour on the touch line when comparing to what he was like at previous clubs . It maybe just COVID concerns , lack of crowds etc but he just doesn’t seem to have much enthusiasm. He used to stand on the touch line and be as intimidating to officials as Fergie in his pomp
He was animated enough last night. He was going crackers at the forth official more than once.
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At this stage, if you could look into his eyes and see he was up for a Championship season, I would definitely want him in charge.
He’s an excellent coach and has twice been promoted from the Championship. Who will we get that’s any better?
I think we would also be in far better shape to return to the EPL after he’s worked on developing the team. We set sail on the stormy Premier League ocean this season knowing our ship was full of holes. He’s patched them to some degree now, but too late to stop us sinking.
I want him to stay as long as he’s up for it.
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Can see the scenario that Sam walks away and it takes Dowling all summer to bring in new man. 90 percent certain that senior players out of contract would get exstensions and might have input into who he appoints.
I'd be hoping that Allardyce stays just to curb Dowlings transfer dealings and to get rid of dead wood at club. I'll suggest a few names Livermore, Phillips, Kanu and Zohore to start with.
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Would much rather Dowling went than Allardyce but we know how it works here.
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Get the feeling if Allardyce stays we would go back to the Pulis template, & the DoF position would probably go.
As a matter of interest, did anyone notice the "tire" advert on the pitchside billboards last night?
Just saying....
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Would much rather Dowling went than Allardyce but we know how it works here.
Me too. If you were hiring someone with decades of experience and a proven track record or Dowling, who would you think had the better credentials at spotting talent and putting a team together?
It’s absurd to have a Director of Football as a “boss†who is, by all measures, inferior to the Head Coach.
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Me too. If you were hiring someone with decades of experience and a proven track record or Dowling, who would you think had the better credentials at spotting talent and putting a team together?
It’s absurd to have a Director of Football as a “boss†who is, by all measures, inferior to the Head Coach.
Problem is people above Dowling have zero clue so they cant make that call.
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I want Allardyce to stay and for once be in a position of getting promoted with a manager who has experience of knowing what it takes to stay in the league and what players are needed.
Like someone else has said before, the past 20 years have shown it’s not too difficult to get West Brom out the championship. Each time this has happened though it’s been with quite inexperienced managers who have maybe a bit naively believed they can take the team up and try and play ‘attractively’ on a limited budget. Each time they have come unstuck.
Mowbray in 2008 we finished bottom, Di Matteo had a decent start but was unable to turn things around when it went wrong & was replaced with the experience of Hodgson and this season we had it with Bilic who was obviously replaced with big Sam.
Going up with someone already with the experience may help us.
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A lucky win and a couple of better performances and we want him to stay? If he keeps us up, yes, if he takes us down, no.
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I want Allardyce to stay and for once be in a position of getting promoted with a manager who has experience of knowing what it takes to stay in the league and what players are needed.
Like someone else has said before, the past 20 years have shown it’s not too difficult to get West Brom out the championship. Each time this has happened though it’s been with quite inexperienced managers who have maybe a bit naively believed they can take the team up and try and play ‘attractively’ on a limited budget. Each time they have come unstuck.
Mowbray in 2008 we finished bottom, Di Matteo had a decent start but was unable to turn things around when it went wrong & was replaced with the experience of Hodgson and this season we had it with Bilic who was obviously replaced with big Sam.
Going up with someone already with the experience may help us.
This is how I see it, except I would never dare say it is "not too difficult" to get out of the champ!
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This is how I see it, except I would never dare say it is "not too difficult" to get out of the champ!
It hasn’t been though has it for us, not saying this will always be the case but in the last 20 years we haven’t found it difficult to get out.
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Think I may have mentioned previously that I do not like Allardyce. He was not one of the managers I wished to see at WBA.
However the players brought in since he has been in charge, and the way the team has improved in many, (though not all) aspects has given me a reason to give Allardyce a little more respect than previously. I actually look forward to games now, although sitting back too deep on a 1-0 lead still exasperates me, and playing our best creative player where he can be the least effective has me breathing fire, I rather like most of what I am seeing.
I would be quite happy to let him continue for next season whether in the greed league or the Championship. From what I have seen I do not think we could find better, and that was probably the most difficult thing I have written since my MSc thesis.
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One thing that stands out for me is that a lot of people who don’t want him actually don’t like Allardyce ‘the man’. Doesn’t seem to be many who don’t rate him as a manager
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A lucky win and a couple of better performances and we want him to stay? If he keeps us up, yes, if he takes us down, no.
yes I agree it's a bit premature to be clamouring for him to stay, but have to admit there are certainly signs of encouragement these past few weeks. If we end the season with some momentum then that will be really important going into next year - the relegated teams who tend to struggle in the Championship are often those who go down with a whimper.
Having said that, a huge reason for the improved performances is Yokuslu, who may well not be here next season. We also are looking at a Summer of considerable squad turnover, so in my opinion it is important that our manager next season (should we go down) is someone who can get the best out of the likes of Diangana and Pereira. Not convinced Allardyce is that man.
A final concern I have with him in the Championship is that it's likely a good number of teams will sit back and expect us to break them down. Ties into the above point that we will need to get the best out of our most creative players, or build a well-balanced attack-minded squad - preferably both. Is Allardyce the manager to do that? Again there are big question marks for me.
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We probably have a better chance of keeping Yokoslu and Diagne with him in post, although neither are very likely from the sound of it.
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I have always said I would support Big Sam I didn't really want him but as many others on here said Who else except for someone worse than him were we going to get. Maybe Nigel Pearson but with our board that would be a no so I backed him I had my doubts when we doing badly then a day which I will never forget Wolves 2 - 3 Baggies I don't remember our 5-1 Victory over them as I was young and didn't really follow Football I supported us and played it but wasn't very good at it or even understood the rules of it. So Big Sam gave me a memory of beating the Wolves allowing me to brag. But now things are looking ok We are showing fight Okay looks good if we can buy him he will be the best purchase we have made except for Pereira we look like we have finally been given a kick up the backside and 10 lashes of a belt to whip us into Shape. My dad said Big Sam was always good at finding these obscure players and turning them into decent players, I can now see what he means. If you would have asked me if I wanted him in the Championship a month ago I would have said no. Now I don't think it would be to bad. He won't do what Bilic or Big Dave did in reuniting this mess of a Club with the fans and giving us great spectacles and decent Football. But he will make sure that if we go up from the Championship that we will be alright to stay up allowing the Owner to finally sell and then Big Sam has left a Springboard for someone like Slav or Big Dave to return or come in take the basic tools we have add there own flair to it and start to attack teams. So I can see Big Sam as a Short term solution for a long term plan that this board won't have but the next might.
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Think I may have mentioned previously that I do not like Allardyce. He was not one of the managers I wished to see at WBA.
However the players brought in since he has been in charge, and the way the team has improved in many, (though not all) aspects has given me a reason to give Allardyce a little more respect than previously. I actually look forward to games now, although sitting back too deep on a 1-0 lead still exasperates me, and playing our best creative player where he can be the least effective has me breathing fire, I rather like most of what I am seeing.
I would be quite happy to let him continue for next season whether in the greed league or the Championship. From what I have seen I do not think we could find better, and that was probably the most difficult thing I have written since my MSc thesis.
I agree with almost every bit of this except the Allardyce renaissance is still in its infancy, if he can build momentum from the Everton match I may have to swallow my contempt for the man
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I do not believe that among those of us who didn't want him initially that there is any 'clamour for him to stay'. The issue is that what better alternatives are we able to attract? If Allardyce does over the rest of this season, look as if he can provide the sort of team we hope for, then it is more about not clamouring for him to go rather than clamouring for him to stay. For me this would mean at the very least, getting the best out of Pereira, keeping Diagn, and having a good try at persuading Yokuslu to give it another go with us regardless of the division we are in. If Allardyce can do this and keep up the improvement in performance levels we have seen recently then I would be prepared to give him the full 18 months. I don't think this constitutes a clamour for him to stay, more a hope that somebody can work a miracle and if that somebody is Allardyce then that would be alright
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If we go down as I strongly expect, I would prefer a new, younger guy and the chance, for once, to try and execute a long term plan. I appreciate that such a strategy is most unlikely with our club.
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I was sad that Bilic was sacked, if not surprised, was not overly enthusiastic about Allerdyce, but, I was completely wrong, I think he is a great fit for West Bromwich Albion, I really hope he stays, exactly what we needed, we could not have made a better appointment.
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Cheers Sam. No Diangana or Robinson. Instead we have Phillips starting and HRK on as sub. Bruce came for 0-0 and got what he wanted.
The limitations are laid bare of his management style and why he is seen as Fireman Sam, prefers workhorses over flair.
Now relegation is confirmed, just need to find out if he's willing to work in the Championship?
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Any manager that has Townsend, Bartley O Shea and Furlong keeping clean sheets deserves credit in my book. Subs were far to late though, and the wrong subs.
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Any manager that has Townsend, Bartley O Shea and Furlong keeping clean sheets deserves credit in my book. Subs were far to late though, and the wrong subs.
There is nothing on the bench I'd have preferred no changes to what we did.
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Well peeved with him today should have changed things at half time, accommodates Phillips and AMN by playing Pereira out wide. Snodgrass should of started or at least come on for Phillips at half time he might have scored with chance that he ballooned over. Why didn't he stick two up top in last fifteen minutes? And why take of Diagne when we needed a goal?
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Dear Sam & Sam,
do you want to stick around for the other year which you insisted on having written into your contracts at very decent wages or not ?
You do, thats a surprise not....
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He has now done what I expected, I.e we are definitely tighter at the back. We sorely lack creativity going forward though and that, sad to say, is also what I expected. Still expect him to leave when season is over and that will be fine with me.
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Subs were too late today. I think Robinson could have caused issues. Snodgrass could've done something too.
The foundations were there to build on and score from. I think Allardyce could have done more today with subs. Especially after crying about how close the games were together.
I don't know, I'm a bit disappointed today with how things played out.
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He has now done what I expected, I.e we are definitely tighter at the back. We sorely lack creativity going forward though and that, sad to say, is also what I expected. Still expect him to leave when season is over and that will be fine with me.
I don't we lack creativity , looking back at the last 4 or 5 games the chances we miss are horrible .
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Very poor team selection and subs today. Just cannot see the reasoning for AMN in the centre when its obvious we are more likely to score with MP in a central position. AMN offers more out wide than MP, who offers more centrally than AMN so why this selection?
When we are in desperate need of a goal what is the point of taking off Diagne and bringing on two players with hardly a goal or an assist between them. Neither HRK nor Grant has given us anything this season. Robinson has scored more than either, and gives a completely different dynamic. Snoddy should have been on as well, Phillips had done ok again but we needed fresh legs. Plus it should all have been done 20 mins earlier!
Allardyce is playing games and it ain't football
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The quick fix has failed let's just move on.
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I am happy with the way things are progressing. People are desperate for results NOW which I understand but looking at the bigger picture, we look so much better. Barely conceding now, competing properly.
I have no problems with Allardyce's set up or his team selections or his substitutions in the main.
When you remember where we were against Villa, Arsenal, Leeds etc, weve come a long way in a short time really.
We're progressing nicely.
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I am happy with the way things are progressing. People are desperate for results NOW which I understand but looking at the bigger picture, we look so much better. Barely conceding now, competing properly.
I have no problems with Allardyce's set up or his team selections or his substitutions in the main.
When you remember where we were against Villa, Arsenal, Leeds etc, weve come a long way in a short time really.
We're progressing nicely.
progressing to relegation, and more importantly a complete squad makeover which we have to entrust to 2 coaches with out moded and inappropriate work methods
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progressing to relegation, and more importantly a complete squad makeover which we have to entrust to 2 coaches with out moded and inappropriate work methods
Any squad building in the summer though will be an improvement on the completely unbalanced one Sam or whoever in charge in summer 2021 has inherited though from the summer of 2020. We can't do worse than the last managers window surely?
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Big Sam got it wrong today more concerned with conceding than scoring.
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I think he got it wrong by sticking with the same XI, they played well against Everton but that was less than 72 hours ago and it would be harsh to be dropped after playing well but they were simply knackered from the start. That simple.
No excuse for not making the subs earlier though. I can't defend that.
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progressing to relegation, and more importantly a complete squad makeover which we have to entrust to 2 coaches with out moded and inappropriate work methods
We were always going down mate. You have to build, lay proper foundations. We are on the right track now. Yes the summer will see a rebuild but that's needed and we will have a significant financial advantage over other Championship clubs.
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Cheers Sam. No Diangana or Robinson.
I think this is a very valid criticism today. Must win game and we never really let the handbrake go. We should have thrown everything at them late on and Diagne was screaming out for a striker alongside him, rather than a straight swap. Can't fault the effort of the team, the management should have been braver and more decisive when we hit the 70 minute mark. Allardyce played it too conservative and got the subs bench wrong.
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I get we are looking harder to beat and break down but that was, in my opinion the last chance to stay up realistically.
We looked very lethargic, slow on the ball and just generally tired. Some fresh legs in the starting line up might have upset the balance but could have helped, then we didn't make any subs until the 83rd minute.
I understand about keeping things tight and not conceding but we never looked like scoring, we had a few half chances that we didn't take but we didn't create a clear cut chance all game.
Disappointed with the approach to the game and how slow the changes came. Some may disagree but I'd have rather have just gone for that and lost. Than a tepid 90 minutes at 0-0
I would not want Big Sam managing us next year in thr championship, the football is utter utter dross and is giving me flashbacks to Pulis.
I think the gamble was probably worth it getting Sam in but the gap between us and safety has only increased since him joining.
Feel utterly dejected after that
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I'm getting a bit concerned that the appointment of Allardyce is creating a significant rift between our fan base reminiscent of the Pulis era...some seem happy with the way we're leaking fewer goals now and keeping clean sheets, and others (like me) want more than that turgid style of football. I don't want Allardyce in the championship, but its looking increasingly likely he'll be here because of his ability to keep 'clean sheets'. How very exciting, not.
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Dont care what we do next season as long as we get promoted. Seen much worse than what we are seeing under Sam
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I'm getting a bit concerned that the appointment of Allardyce is creating a significant rift between our fan base reminiscent of the Pulis era...some seem happy with the way we're leaking fewer goals now and keeping clean sheets, and others (like me) want more than that turgid style of football. I don't want Allardyce in the championship, but its looking increasingly likely he'll be here because of his ability to keep 'clean sheets'. How very exciting, not.
This turgid style of football is nonsense a total myth. We played some lovely stuff against Everton especially early on and at Burnley and we were fine today as well.
Nothing like Pulis at all.
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Dont care what we do next season as long as we get promoted. Seen much worse than what we are seeing under Sam
He's managed to get a back four out of Furlong , Townsend O'Shea and Bartley . He hasn't done it by blocking up Pulis style either , worth taking note out of that .
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Everybody saying how tired and lethargic we looked , Allardyce banging on about the unfairness of the fixtures but no subs until 85 mins and no Diangana on the bench ,although one or two rumours starting to surface about an injury . Robinson would surely been worth a punt for 20 mins in a game where a draw was about as much use as a loss.
I am still to be convinced that Allardyce wants to be here and just can’t see him wanting to do a season of the Championship grind
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We were always going down mate. You have to build, lay proper foundations. We are on the right track now. Yes the summer will see a rebuild but that's needed and we will have a significant financial advantage over other Championship clubs.
I'm all in favour of giving a head coach time to build and lay down foundations. But Allardyce doesn't strike me as the type of head coach who is either interested in being here long enough or actually suited to doing that. Either way, the director of football and everyone above him at this club definitely isn't suited to it. Proven by the fact that Bilic was straight out and we did a 180 degree shift to Allardyce at the first sign of trouble.
On a side note, I wouldn't mind whoever is running things at Barnsley over at The Hawthorns, 3 really good head coach appointments in a row and some fantastic recruitment on a tiny budget. Add them to the list of Norwich, Brentford, Brighton etc. who are miles ahead of us when it comes to the director of football model.
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He's managed to get a back four out of Furlong , Townsend O'Shea and Bartley . He hasn't done it by blocking up Pulis style either , worth taking note out of that .
Yep, people who are saying hes like Pulis are blinded by their personal dislike of the man. We have played some good stuff. Better than what we saw under previous manager in the PL for sure. Done it all on about 2m quid as well. Deserves credit, not being slated.
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Relegation was already done and dusted for me, I’m just happy to see us now being competitive in matches which lets be honest we weren’t for most of the season.
Comes down again to just lacking that final bit of quality/cutting edge which the coaching staff can’t really do much about if we just haven’t got the players but seem to be on the right track going forward.
Hopefully he wants to stay as I’d keep him on!
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Yep, people who are saying hes like Pulis are blinded by their personal dislike of the man. We have played some good stuff. Better than what we saw under previous manager in the PL for sure. Done it all on about 2m quid as well. Deserves credit, not being slated.
We’re certainly playing better football than during the closing months of Pulis, which were especially unwatchable.
And I’d suggest he’s doing it with a far weaker group of players than were available to both Pulis and Pardew.
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We didn't show anywhere near enough urgency early enough in the game considering it was a 'must win'. My issues with the subs are firstly that they were too late, but also that they were really quite basic. Phillips was playing well - why not put him at full back and bring Snodgrass on for the other full back? Then you've got much better delivery on both sides of the pitch, given our tactic seemed to mostly be crosses into the box. Especially as Pereira's final ball was poor today.
I also think we need Ajayi back in the team asap for O'Shea. First half most of their threat was on the counter where we lacked pace & physicality to deal with it.
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Fulham on for a win at Anfield. Leaving them 1 point from safety.
We are 8, 9 really with GD. Not good enough at all yes Sam has got us playing better but he also oversaw a spell where we free falled and gave ourselves an impossible task.
Fulham stuck with what they had, we twisted and got Sam in and right now it's failing massively
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We didn't show anywhere near enough urgency early enough in the game considering it was a 'must win'. My issues with the subs are firstly that they were too late, but also that they were really quite basic. Phillips was playing well - why not put him at full back and bring Snodgrass on for the other full back? Then you've got much better delivery on both sides of the pitch, given our tactic seemed to mostly be crosses into the box. Especially as Pereira's final ball was poor today.
I also think we need Ajayi back in the team asap for O'Shea. First half most of their threat was on the counter where we lacked pace & physicality to deal with it.
Since OShea has come back in:
Clean sheet at Burnley
Clean sheet v Brighton
One goal conceded v Everton (blameless)
Clean sheet v Newcastle.
I'd say we have greater issues wouldn't you?
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Since OShea has come back in:
Clean sheet at Burnley
Clean sheet v Brighton
One goal conceded v Everton (blameless)
Clean sheet v Newcastle.
I'd say we have greater issues wouldn't you?
Agreed he has looked solid
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Definitely no rush to see Ajayi come back in.
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Fulham on for a win at Anfield. Leaving them 1 point from safety.
We are 8, 9 really with GD. Not good enough at all yes Sam has got us playing better but he also oversaw a spell where we free falled and gave ourselves an impossible task.
Fulham stuck with what they had, we twisted and got Sam in and right now it's failing massively
I know its going back down the 'what if we stuck with Bilic' road and its too late now but after what Fulham are achieving at the moment i was thinking exactly this
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There is no denying there is an improvement and our defensive record in recent games shows that.
Today has obviously shown he has no faith in our alternatives such as Robinson, Grant, Livermore and Sawyers. Those four players will be a big part of our squad next season and if Sam has no faith in them now then I have reservations as to whether he is the man for next season too.
Our midfield and turn around in form is heavily reliant on the three loan additions - they won’t be here next year to rescue us..
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We’re certainly playing better football than during the closing months of Pulis, which were especially unwatchable.
And I’d suggest he’s doing it with a far weaker group of players than were available to both Pulis and Pardew.
Very true on both points.
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I know its going back down the 'what if we stuck with Bilic' road and its too late now but after what Fulham are achieving at the moment i was thinking exactly this
Yeah I didn't want to start that off again
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Since OShea has come back in:
Clean sheet at Burnley
Clean sheet v Brighton
One goal conceded v Everton (blameless)
Clean sheet v Newcastle.
I'd say we have greater issues wouldn't you?
Absolutely we have bigger issues, I just think in games where we need to be on the front foot from the off - and today we really had to be - it would help to have some pace at centre back.
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I'm all in favour of giving a head coach time to build and lay down foundations. But Allardyce doesn't strike me as the type of head coach who is either interested in being here long enough or actually suited to doing that. Either way, the director of football and everyone above him at this club definitely isn't suited to it. Proven by the fact that Bilic was straight out and we did a 180 degree shift to Allardyce at the first sign of trouble.
On a side note, I wouldn't mind whoever is running things at Barnsley over at The Hawthorns, 3 really good head coach appointments in a row and some fantastic recruitment on a tiny budget. Add them to the list of Norwich, Brentford, Brighton etc. who are miles ahead of us when it comes to the director of football model.
The Barnsley point is a very good one and counters the argument of 'who can we get who'd do any better than Allardyce right now?'. But exactly as you say we would need to reshape the club and work to some sort of identity and model. Sadly we are a million miles from that right now.
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Actually don't think he will be here next season or if he is it will be on a significant new pay packet with total control over ins and outs. Are club willing to give him all that power, think Dowling will try his utmost to stop that happening as he'd become irrelevant.
Don't think relegation will effect his appeal to clubs in trouble especially if he makes us hard to beat from now until end of season..
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I keep seeing people on Twitter saying we should try to keep him for next season to oversee the rebuild. But to me, we're just looking at a short-term fix again. Besides, I don't think he would want the job of rebuilding, especially with the budget on offer here.
The fact is we need to pick a way we want to play, and then tailor everything to that; the signings, the manager / head coach, the way the club trains its players at all levels. We keep lurching around from manager to manager, one style to the next and back again. There needs to be a long-term approach taken.
But there won't be, I've been banging this drum for years and it's not happening.
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I keep seeing people on Twitter saying we should try to keep him for next season to oversee the rebuild. But to me, we're just looking at a short-term fix again. Besides, I don't think he would want the job of rebuilding, especially with the budget on offer here.
The fact is we need to pick a way we want to play, and then tailor everything to that; the signings, the manager / head coach, the way the club trains its players at all levels. We keep lurching around from manager to manager, one style to the next and back again. There needs to be a long-term approach taken.
But there won't be, I've been banging this drum for years and it's not happening.
There will be no long term or mid planning while Lai and co are here mate , they want out and for the best price in the quickest way I'd imagine .
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He was brought in to keep us up. He’s failed.
We can’t go into the Championship with the aim of being hard to beat, relying on set pieces to maybe grind out the occasional 1 - 0 win.
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He was brought in to keep us up. He’s failed.
We can’t go into the Championship with the aim of being hard to beat, relying on set pieces to maybe grind out the occasional 1 - 0 win.
Why not? It worked before for us.
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He fixed the defence after we got thrashed by leeds arsenal and villa. The gap widened and is still requiring us to overhaul a point a game until end of season.
He doesn't trust half the squad which tells you how bad they are and how bad summer recruitment was. We never fully went for it today despite it being a must win. Dont want to see us playing for set pieces and narrow wins on promotion.
Time to look for a new person both in DOF and manager role and develop a long term plan
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I know its going back down the 'what if we stuck with Bilic' road and its too late now but after what Fulham are achieving at the moment i was thinking exactly this
Fulham recruited well in the summer. It’s just taken them a while to gel. They have some good momentum now and I can see them escaping the drop.
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Why not? It worked before for us.
Because like it or not (and I'm beginning to think the vast majority of Albion fans don't), football has changed.
When you look over the last few years, only Colin has had any success, that coming at Cardiff. Look at last seasons promoted teams; Leeds played dynamic football, ourselves (up to the 8th December) and Fulham also had success built on more progressive styles.
Football has evolved, and the old guard have been left behind. We can't try to do it the way Megson did, it won't work anymore.
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He fixed the defence after we got thrashed by leeds arsenal and villa. The gap widened and is still requiring us to overhaul a point a game until end of season.
He doesn't trust half the squad which tells you how bad they are and how bad summer recruitment was. We never fully went for it today despite it being a must win. Dont want to see us playing for set pieces and narrow wins on promotion.
Time to look for a new person both in DOF and manager role and develop a long term plan
We tried that, we ended up with a load of lightweight pussys with no balls for a fight.
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We tried that, we ended up with a load of lightweight pussys with no balls for a fight.
1000000000000000% this. The squad assembled by Dowling and Bilic is atrocious bar a handful of players.
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There is no denying there is an improvement and our defensive record in recent games shows that.
Today has obviously shown he has no faith in our alternatives such as Robinson, Grant, Livermore and Sawyers. Those four players will be a big part of our squad next season and if Sam has no faith in them now then I have reservations as to whether he is the man for next season too.
Our midfield and turn around in form is heavily reliant on the three loan additions - they won’t be here next year to rescue us..
Exactly that. We won't have the luxury of replacing all and sundry and we already have holes to fill that we've made do and mend with loans.... so we need a manager/ coach who will work with the tools (good word in some cases) that we have.
I'm not saying one way or the other about whether I think Sam should stay, but the club heirarchy need to make their minds up NOW what we are doing so we can plan better for the Championship.
But, quelle surprise. We won't be doing that will we. WBA new sponsors: lastminute.com.
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I know its going back down the 'what if we stuck with Bilic' road and its too late now but after what Fulham are achieving at the moment i was thinking exactly this
I think the difference is everybody at Fulham has bought into the idea that they can stay up, and have all been pulling in the same direction all season.
We've had Bilic and Dowling at odds, and we don't know the truth of it or how long things were the way they were, but it sounds like Bilic was expecting the boot for a long time before it came. Maybe that spread to the players, or maybe Bilic wasn't committed because of it. It certainly didn't seem that way from the performance at City.
Even before we got promotion, there were people saying we were just going up to get relegated again; when the collapse in form happened after the restart, it finished off confidence levels.
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We just need some consistency in this club. Allardyce has shown with no money and no time (may as well discount the first few weeks of January) he can identify and address problem areas.
We need to be tougher. We tried being progressive (i guess you'd call it that?!) with Bilic, it failed.
I'd be 100% behind Allardyce sticking with us, getting the summer to recruit and then in all likelihood a contract extension if he gets us back up.
My worries lie at the feet of Dowling.
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We just need some consistency in this club. Allardyce has shown with no money and no time (may as well discount the first few weeks of January) he can identify and address problem areas.
We need to be tougher. We tried being progressive (i guess you'd call it that?!) with Bilic, it failed.
I'd be 100% behind Allardyce sticking with us, getting the summer to recruit and then in all likelihood a contract extension if he gets us back up.
My worries lie at the feet of Dowling.
keep Allardyce and which players ??? He has ostracised the core of the side we will have in the chumps, add to that the loanees and the end of contracts, we'll have about 6 first team squad players for him to work with!
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keep Allardyce and which players ??? He has ostracised the core of the side we will have in the chumps, add to that the loanees and the end of contracts, we'll have about 6 first team squad players for him to work with!
Allardyce isn't stupid - The Championship is a step down from the Premier League and a lot of the players not getting a chance will have a chance next year (Grant, Grady etc).
My worry is a new person working under Dowling. For me, I want Allardyce to see out his contract.
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Allardyce isn't stupid - The Championship is a step down from the Premier League and a lot of the players not getting a chance will have a chance next year (Grant, Grady etc).
My worry is a new person working under Dowling. For me, I want Allardyce to see out his contract.
If your gaffer told you that you ain't good enough but you will do at a lower level, would you want to work for him with a view to getting back to the level he doesn't rate you at?
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keep Allardyce and which players ??? He has ostracised the core of the side we will have in the chumps, add to that the loanees and the end of contracts, we'll have about 6 first team squad players for him to work with!
Agree. The loans he's got in have been great for us. But they are loans and irrelevant to next season. The players left on our books, like it or not, will need to be utilised. I think next season's a totally different beast, and somehow we need someone who can get Matheus and Grady firing again ind interacting like they did.... we already have too many holes to fill so can't afford to leave them out to dry.
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If your gaffer told you that you ain't good enough but you will do at a lower level, would you want to work for him with a view to getting back to the level he doesn't rate you at?
It happens literally every season with relegated teams, those that weren't in the 11 will get a chance. There's a lot of water to pass under the bridge between now and the end of the season and the start of next season.
Plus, the players we're talking about aren't being told they aren't good enough - they haven't been good enough, the proof being the table. If "my gaffer" told me I wasn't good enough and there was tangible proof that that is true I would probably be thankful for a chance at redemption/to prove myself and work back to that level.
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Swapping manager again this summer would be more madness. We need continuity. Any manager needs a few transfer windows and a realistic budget to compete. It will be a tough job in the summer as half of our team are disappearing back to their parent clubs. But we also have several out of contract who we can get off the wage bill, so have room to recycle and hopefully get the quality of player in that we need. Particularly in central midfield. I'd keep Allardyce, his experience is a big plus. Although I'm also pessimistic about our chances of getting promoted again. The championship is an incredibly difficult league to get out of, as Brentford are showing. Most teams going down do not go straight back up - it's a proper slog and you can't win 5-0 every week. We will suffer, like all the team do.
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Swapping manager again this summer would be more madness. We need continuity. Any manager needs a few transfer windows and a realistic budget to compete. It will be a tough job in the summer as half of our team are disappearing back to their parent clubs. But we also have several out of contract who we can get off the wage bill, so have room to recycle and hopefully get the quality of player in that we need. Particularly in central midfield. I'd keep Allardyce, his experience is a big plus. Although I'm also pessimistic about our chances of getting promoted again. The championship is an incredibly difficult league to get out of, as Brentford are showing. Most teams going down do not go straight back up - it's a proper slog and you can't win 5-0 every week. We will suffer, like all the team do.
Common sense here in my eyes. We can't change everything and head coach would probably be a bad place to start. It's going to be a tough, long season and we need experience and knowledge.
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keep Allardyce and which players ??? He has ostracised the core of the side we will have in the chumps, add to that the loanees and the end of contracts, we'll have about 6 first team squad players for him to work with!
This is not an issue for me. They don't HAVE to be the core. In fact if it expedites the end of a few Albion careers then all the better.
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Worrying that RS and JL are going to be our CMs again. Thats the most pressing area for me. Defence is ok, add another LB. DEFINITELY NEED A DCM then another CM so we don't get RS AND JL every game.
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Worrying that RS and JL are going to be our CMs again. Thats the most pressing area for me. Defence is ok, add another LB. DEFINITELY NEED A DCM then another CM so we don't get RS AND JL every game.
They don't have to be? Just sign replacements for the loanees.
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They don't have to be? Just sign replacements for the loanees.
I worry with Dowling still about he won't find anyone better which is ridiculous i know.
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This is going to sound mad but, keeping this coach does not give us the continuity we need! If he doesn’t get us back up he leaves, if he does get us back up he will be pushing 69 and his sidekick will be 64, the ownership want out and will most likely off load us as soon as someone flashes readies, incoming owners will not want the old blokes around, so off they go with a retirement wedge.
We need a clean break and a coach who can get the talent playing again IMO
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keep Allardyce and which players ??? He has ostracised the core of the side we will have in the chumps, add to that the loanees and the end of contracts, we'll have about 6 first team squad players for him to work with!
Ostracising certain members of the squad who are not good enough and replacing them with better is not something he should be criticised for
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Ostracising certain members of the squad who are not good enough and replacing them with better is not something he should be criticised for
It is when on arrival he said the squad was good enough !
Who has he improved, Bartley and ????
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Swapping manager again this summer would be more madness. We need continuity. Any manager needs a few transfer windows and a realistic budget to compete. It will be a tough job in the summer as half of our team are disappearing back to their parent clubs. But we also have several out of contract who we can get off the wage bill, so have room to recycle and hopefully get the quality of player in that we need. Particularly in central midfield. I'd keep Allardyce, his experience is a big plus. Although I'm also pessimistic about our chances of getting promoted again. The championship is an incredibly difficult league to get out of, as Brentford are showing. Most teams going down do not go straight back up - it's a proper slog and you can't win 5-0 every week. We will suffer, like all the team do.
You are talking as if we have a long-term plan. Sam was a short-term fix and one that has failed
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This turgid style of football is nonsense a total myth. We played some lovely stuff against Everton especially early on and at Burnley and we were fine today as well.
Nothing like Pulis at all.
Agree re Everton and Burnley but certainly disagree re today.
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It is when on arrival he said the squad was good enough !
Who has he improved, Bartley and ????
Well it wouldn't have been a smart move to come in and say this lot are !!!? Would it. Ffs
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Quite simple really , if Big Sam leaves in the summer the new manager is more than likely going to accommodate the likes of Grant , Sawyers and Livermore in the regular starting 11 . Not a prospect that I for one look forward to !
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Quite simple really , if Big Sam leaves in the summer the new manager is more than likely going to accommodate the likes of Grant , Sawyers and Livermore in the regular starting 11 . Not a prospect that I for one look forward to !
I wouldnt write Grant of yet
Scored 19 goals for a poor Huddersfield side last year
Sawyers will also be fine
Livermore no thanks
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I wouldnt write Grant of yet
Scored 19 goals for a poor Huddersfield side last year
Sawyers will also be fine
Livermore no thanks
I would hope Sawyers and Livermore are both long gone before we start next season.
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I would hope Sawyers and Livermore are both long gone before we start next season.
Likely if Allardyce stays , anybody else they will be staying no doubt .
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Not only staying i'd imagine Dowling will extend their contracts for their hard work.
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I would hope Sawyers and Livermore are both long gone before we start next season.
I hope Sawyers stays but is played in his proper position.
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It is when on arrival he said the squad was good enough !
Who has he improved, Bartley and ????
Manager in not turning the squad against him on arrival shocker.
They had ample opportunity to demonstrate their worth and they were horrid.
Allardyce was right to bin them off for better quality players.
As would any other manager.
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Players' are are just not up to it.
Just cannot turn a pigs ear to a silk purse.
This is down to the board and also Dowling.
You don't go to Lidl and expect Harrods.
Shake them (the board) up to wake up to the real world.
The board who are supervised? by Lai should have realised before, that they need to use common sense and invest to be able to move forward.
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We have so many of the squad that are plainly not Premier standard and probably not Championship standard either . Shows the quality of Big Sam that he’s managed to get us achieving clean sheets on more than an irregular basis !
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It is when on arrival he said the squad was good enough !
Who has he improved, Bartley and ????
Townsend , Furlong and I'd say he's making a good CB out of O'Shea . All of the above and more are all physically and mentally fitter than the previous regime .
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I'm not an Big Sam fan, but fair play to the bloke it took him a few weeks to make his mark but the fence is performing a lot better.
They ride their luck at times but on the whole we look more solid as a unit.
A lot of that can be attributed to the addition of Okay. A stand out performer since his arrival. We will be very lucky to have him here next season.
Next season I'd keep the goal keeper, the back four look OK bur we need to keep our eyes open for a new right back. Furlong is a mad head.
Hopefully we can keep Okay, and Gallagher for another season.
Play Pereira in the centre of midfield where he has more influence and enjoys his game.
Maitland-Niles will probably go back, Phillips needs replacing though he did OK yesterday.
We need an additional striker maybe two dependant on if Diagne stays.. We have Robinson and Grant.
I'd also give Big Sam the season in the Championship.
If nothing else he saw what was wrong when he got here and addressed what he could in the transfer window.
The players he bought in HAS made a difference.
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I'm not an Big Sam fan, but fair play to the bloke it took him a few weeks to make his mark but the fence is performing a lot better.
They ride their luck at times but on the whole we look more solid as a unit.
A lot of that can be attributed to the addition of Okay. A stand out performer since his arrival. We will be very lucky to have him here next season.
Next season I'd keep the goal keeper, the back four look OK bur we need to keep our eyes open for a new right back. Furlong is a mad head.
Hopefully we can keep Okay, and Gallagher for another season.
Play Pereira in the centre of midfield where he has more influence and enjoys his game.
Maitland-Niles will probably go back, Phillips needs replacing though he did OK yesterday.
We need an additional striker maybe two dependant on if Diagne stays.. We have Robinson and Grant.
I'd also give Big Sam the season in the Championship.
If nothing else he saw what was wrong when he got here and addressed what he could in the transfer window.
The players he bought in HAS made a difference.
Not a chance that Gallagher or ASM will be here next season. Okay will have better offers. Diagne is more of a possibility. Johnstone I think will be gone. Pereira not sure about but I’d say 60/40 gone.
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What he's done is prove that defence is about more than the back 4 and, by getting a proper midfielder in, we are keeping clean sheets aplenty.
When you concede as much possession as we do, in the Prem, regardless of who is manager, it is essential to have a solid DM.
Livermore has been our weakest link for years and finally someone has addressed it. Thank Sam for that if nothing else!
You can paper over the cracks in the Championship, which Bilic managed to do, but any flaws will be exposed in this league due to the ridiculous imbalance of finance.
With our budget we simply cannot go toe to toe, in the Prem, as we can't afford the quality. Even the likes of Newcastle, Palace, Brighton, Fulham etc. spend more on one player than we do on 5. That leaves pragmatism as our only real hope, unfortunately.
Managing us in the Championship is an easy job, so we could get a younger, hungrier manager who could tear up the league with 100 points but, unless they do it by recruiting and adapting a style that transitions to the Prem, it will be futile as they will be exposed, as Bilic was, and sacked by Christmas.
That's why I think, if Allardyce decides to stay, he will be welcomed with open arms ....by the board at least.
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What he's done is prove that defence is about more than the back 4 and, by getting a proper midfielder in, we are keeping clean sheets aplenty.
When you concede as much possession as we do, in the Prem, regardless of who is manager, it is essential to have a solid DM.
Livermore has been our weakest link for years and finally someone has addressed it. Thank Sam for that if nothing else!
You can paper over the cracks in the Championship, which Bilic managed to do, but any flaws will be exposed in this league due to the ridiculous imbalance of finance.
With our budget we simply cannot go toe to toe, in the Prem, as we can't afford the quality. Even the likes of Newcastle, Palace, Brighton, Fulham etc. spend more on one player than we do on 5. That leaves pragmatism as our only real hope, unfortunately.
Managing us in the Championship is an easy job, so we could get a younger, hungrier manager who could tear up the league with 100 points but, unless they do it by recruiting and adapting a style that transitions to the Prem, it will be futile as they will be exposed, as Bilic was, and sacked by Christmas.
That's why I think, if Allardyce decides to stay, he will be welcomed with open arms ....by the board at least.
I'm not sure its "easy" to manage us in the Championship, not sure that's the right word but we certainly have the advantage over the vast majority of Championship clubs.
Other than that minor point, I agree with you entirely. Excellent post.
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I'm not sure its "easy" to manage us in the Championship, not sure that's the right word but we certainly have the advantage over the vast majority of Championship clubs.
Other than that minor point, I agree with you entirely. Excellent post.
I'll admit that was deliberately mischievous :)
Truth is though, we have never finished outside the top 6 in the Championship.
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Amazingly ignoring fact 3 of the games were at home the last 4 results in a 40 match season would mean we would score 10 goals,concede10 goals and have 50 points.
If we could address the lack of goals we wouldn't need much more but would need to replace any players leaving with a player at least as good if not better.
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Madeley reporting that hierarchy in Hawthorns concerned that Allardyce doesn't seem to be interested in rebuild in Championship, so I'd say we will be parting ways.
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who on earth are the Hierarchy ?
Ken and Dowling ?!!
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Madeley reporting that hierarchy in Hawthorns concerned that Allardyce doesn't seem to be interested in rebuild in Championship, so I'd say we will be parting ways.
Some good news for a Monday morning ........... until they turn to Mark Hughes.
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who on earth are the Hierarchy ?
Ken and Dowling ?!!
Barbie and Ken would make a better fist of it
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Yes we may be more organised and keep clean sheets now but 2 goals in our last 6 games tells it's own story.
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Madeley reporting that hierarchy in Hawthorns concerned that Allardyce doesn't seem to be interested in rebuild in Championship, so I'd say we will be parting ways.
If that is the case, the key thing he has done is introduce some discipline into our play. We need to build on that and use the rest of this season to work with the squad members likely to form the nucleus of next seasons team. It's now a huge task to stay up but ,should he go, he can at least pass over something more positive than he inherited.
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Yes we may be more organised and keep clean sheets now but 2 goals in our last 6 games tells it's own story.
Bit harsh mate , been some shocking misses in front of goal . They are much fitter , defending much better and creating good chances . Phillips miss from 7 yards out Yesterday sums it up .
Too late now but they are almost a Premier team now .
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Madeley reporting that hierarchy in Hawthorns concerned that Allardyce doesn't seem to be interested in rebuild in Championship, so I'd say we will be parting ways.
If thats from Todays Athletic thats not what it says at all .
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If thats from Todays Athletic thats not what it says at all .
I think it's from this piece on West Brom News...enough said!
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2021/03/08/madeley-insiders-concerned-at-big-sams-lack-of-appetite-for-west-brom-rebuild/
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If thats from Todays Athletic thats not what it says at all .
Just read the Athletic and he does say that. Says: ‘there are those inside the club who have privately raised questions about Allardyce’s appetite, at the age of 66, for a season in the Championship; a division where he last managed a decade ago.’
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I’m certainly happy for him to go despite the recent improvement. However I’m not convinced the board would make the right pick, and if they did and we got promoted, he’d be gone again in no time.
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Just read the Athletic and he does say that. Says: ‘there are those inside the club who have privately raised questions about Allardyce’s appetite, at the age of 66, for a season in the Championship; a division where he last managed a decade ago.’
Doesn't say he's not interested in the future ,or a rebuild. To be honest its not a great piece from Madeley .
I think they will try to keep him , only seem to be looking at short term these days .
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As we're now all accepting relegation, it feels right to talk about next season.
For a few reasons, I'd prefer to try somebody different to Allardyce. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of experience and I'm not writing off promotion with him at the helm, but there are a few reasons why I'd roll the dice.
Firstly, I've always had a theory that attacking managers get you promotion to the premier league while defensive managers keep you there. You need to win a good percentage of your games to get promotion where as to stay in a league you can pick up points at a slower rate. Allardyce showed again yesterday that he has a safety first mindset, in a must win game he still packed the midfield with defensive players and only with something like 7 minutes left did he go for it and try to put together a more creative set up. Can Allardyce change his approach to get us winning more games having been a firefighter for so long?
Allardyce does have 2 promotions from the championship, however both came with recently relegated sides who had some very good players (Mark Noble, Kevin Nolan, Eidur Gudjohnson, John Carew, Michael Ricketts, Super Bob) and yet still required the lottery of the playoffs. You could point out, fairly, that he still got 2 relegated sides back but it was via a less than ideal route.
The other thing that's putting me off is the squad make up. Next season, with finances tighter than usual, we will need to rely on a large number of players currently here. Players like Diangana, Robinson, Grant, even Sawyers and Livermore will need to play fairly significant roles. All of these players have been frozen out over the course of the last month and are unlikely to feature much for the rest of the season and so how does that dynamic then work? How do you reintroduce those expensive players and get them playing again under Allardyce? That's a huge task for Allardyce and I think it will be easier for a new manager to achieve that.
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Firstly, I've always had a theory that attacking managers get you promotion to the premier league while defensive managers keep you there.
Gary Megson says otherwise historically Baggies.
Allardyce does have 2 promotions from the championship, however both came with recently relegated sides who had some very good players (Mark Noble, Kevin Nolan, Eidur Gudjohnson, John Carew, Michael Ricketts, Super Bob) and yet still required the lottery of the playoffs. You could point out, fairly, that he still got 2 relegated sides back but it was via a less than ideal route.
As long as we come back up i'm happy. The ideal would be not getting relegated for me.
How do you reintroduce those expensive players and get them playing again under Allardyce? That's a huge task for Allardyce and I think it will be easier for a new manager to achieve that.
They are professionals. If they are incapable of keeping their toys in their prams they should relinquish their wages until they are pacified or be sold on at a suitable price. In the EFL are bomb squad are amongst the best. Providing we get 2 CM's and a CF we will be fine IMO
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Gary Megson, Neil Warnock, Mick McCarthy, there are examples, It isnt a hard and fast rule, but our last 3 promotions have came under attacking managers in Mowbray, Di Matteo & Bilic. Norwich are likely to get their 2nd promotion in 3 years under Farke (all of the top clubs this season from what I've seen have more attacking set ups) and that was the samr last season and the year before.
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Gary Megson, Neil Warnock, Mick McCarthy, there are examples, It isnt a hard and fast rule, but our last 3 promotions have came under attacking managers in Mowbray, Di Matteo & Bilic. Norwich are likely to get their 2nd promotion in 3 years under Farke (all of the top clubs this season from what I've seen have more attacking set ups) and that was the samr last season and the year before.
I'm less worried about keeping Sam than i am over who Dowling might appoint Baggies.
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Just read the Athletic and he does say that. Says: ‘there are those inside the club who have privately raised questions about Allardyce’s appetite, at the age of 66, for a season in the Championship; a division where he last managed a decade ago.’
Those questions are being raised on this forum - in defence of Allardyce your quote does not imply he has a lack of appetite for next season, though I have not read the full article.
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I’m stuck at a crossroad with regards to Allardyce’s future.
Is he what I want? No. I’d prefer to go for a young up and coming manager with a model we can stick to. That however at this moment in time is merely a pipe dream.
There are three real concerns for me which make me lean towards giving Allardyce the job on a permanent basis.
1. Luke Dowling - I do not trust him as the technical director and I have reservations about who would end up in the managerial hot seat should Big Sam leave. His work in the transfer market has been sketchy at best and has only improved with the arrival of Sam.
2. The owners - whilst the ownership remains as it is then you can kiss goodbye to long term planning. The club is run on a daily basis until it is sold to the next man with deep enough pockets. Allardyce is probably our quickest bet of getting rid of the owners - he may take us up next season and has a history of keeping sides in the premier league. A full season with us in the PL may sound attractive to the owners to enable them a quicker sale. They will not run the risk of failing to return to the division and therefore not achieving the maximum price for a sale.
3. The short term approach - what happens if we appoint an upcoming manager who gets us promoted? With our meagre budgets the second they run into a period of bad form they find their head on the chopping block as the club wants to remain in the Premier League. Who do they turn to? That’s right, the Allardyces and Hughes of the world.
Given were up for sale, our best bet might just be to keep Allardyce in hope he speeds up the process of sale otherwise we’re just going to end up on the phone to similar in 18 months time anyway.
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Besides bruce hughes and moyes are the only ones we havent had of the dinosaurs. Moyes doing very well with west ham the other 2 I wouldn't want.
The fear if you change from big sam to an up and comer get promoted then again he is not backed and we go looking for the safe pair of hands their ain't many left we havent had.
If big sam can keep making us hard to beat and pick up points between now and end of season I am not overly keen on him staying however its surely better than continuing the revolving door policy.
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It really is a case of "Beggars can't be choosers". As much as I would like a younger bloke, with a more expansive philosophy, Liam is right, if they did get us up, at the first sign of trouble, they would be out on their ear and, with our budget, that first sign of trouble would be pretty much immediately after promotion.
May as well stick with Allardyce, in the hope that he gets us into a position where we are back in the Prem, with a realistic chance of staying up, and the owners can get a meaningful offer. That's the only way anything changes long term
Disclaimer:
please be aware that, with new owners, your stock can go down as well as up.
All a bit moot though as I honestly believe that the only person involved in deciding whether Allardyce stays or goes is Allardyce himself.
Our opinion certainly won't matter.
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I’m no fan of Allardyce but finally we are now more competitive and the style of football is better than I though it would be. If he stays I reckon he could get us back up, and give us a decent chance of staying up.
It’s down to him and the club of course. He will have lost his never relegated tag and I suspect he has also lost any chance of getting another premier league job. So to me the only way he can get back to the premier league and try to finish his career on a high would be to stay with us and get us back and established in the league.
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I can't see Allardyce staying on thankfully.
To be fair to Dowling you can't argue with his 2 managerial appointments. Bilic promoted at the first attempt and Big Sam with a great record of rescuing teams. OK it hasn't worked out but I don't think any other coach would have kept us up.
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Anyone that hasnt listened to the latest Liquidator podcast with Adrian Goldberg and Chris Lepkowski really should. It is excellent, both speak level headed sense from first minute to last re. Allardyce and where we go from here.
Available on Spotify and other platforms.
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It really is a case of "Beggars can't be choosers". As much as I would like a younger bloke, with a more expansive philosophy, Liam is right, if they did get us up, at the first sign of trouble, they would be out on their ear and, with our budget, that first sign of trouble would be pretty much immediately after promotion.
May as well stick with Allardyce, in the hope that he gets us into a position where we are back in the Prem, with a realistic chance of staying up, and the owners can get a meaningful offer. That's the only way anything changes long term
Disclaimer:
please be aware that, with new owners, your stock can go down as well as up.
All a bit moot though as I honestly believe that the only person involved in deciding whether Allardyce stays or goes is Allardyce himself.
Our opinion certainly won't matter.
I have to say that while your post makes a lot of sense I cannot shake the depressing feeling that 2 more years with this guy in charge gives to me. Lets not kid ourselves that the style of play is good, it simply isn't.
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I have to say that while your post makes a lot of sense I cannot shake the depressing feeling that 2 more years with this guy in charge gives to me. Lets not kid ourselves that the style of play is good, it simply isn't.
Theres nothing wrong with the style of play.
No newly promoted team is going to play in the style of Man City and survive unless they have huge amounts of money to spend.
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I have to say that while your post makes a lot of sense I cannot shake the depressing feeling that 2 more years with this guy in charge gives to me. Lets not kid ourselves that the style of play is good, it simply isn't.
Hence the first line mate.
Ideally we would have a different path, but Atomic is right, we can't play expansive football with our budget.
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Hence the first line mate.
Ideally we would have a different path, but Atomic is right, we can't play expansive football with our budget.
Playing expansive football is nowt to do with your budget.
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Playing expansive football is nowt to do with your budget.
True but if you play expansive football against teams that are well ahead of you it's going to be a regular goalfest and not in a good way either.
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Playing expansive football is nowt to do with your budget.
Sorry but I disagree. In the Prem, budget is everything! And, with our meagre rations, we cannot attract enough quality players to compete in that style.
That's why the likes of Pulis, Dyche, Hodgson, Moyes, Bruce, Allardyce etc. are sort after. They've found a way to "survive".
Sad but true.
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True but if you play expansive football against teams that are well ahead of you it's going to be a regular goalfest and not in a good way either.
cough ***Leeds*** cough !
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cough ***Leeds*** cough !
Leeds managed to get by because they appointed a young, progressive coach who believes in high octane possession based attacking football.......
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Leeds managed to get by because they appointed a young, progressive coach who believes in high octane possession based attacking football.......
They also definitely did not spend well over £100 million either...
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They also definitely did not spend well over £100 million either...
There are shoestring budgets and then there are shoestring budgets.
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Gentlemen, the subject was expansive football not expensive football
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Leeds managed to get by because they appointed a young, progressive coach who believes in high octane possession based attacking football.......
Ah yes, that young coach who is *checks notes* one year younger than Allardyce.
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Ah yes, that young coach who is *checks notes* one year younger than Allardyce.
aaaand whoosh ;D
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Ah yes, that young coach who is *checks notes* one year younger than Allardyce.
I honestly thought he was about ten years older, the rejuvinating powers of crouching down and squatting on an upturned bucket clearly aren't all they're cracked up to be.
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cough ***Leeds*** cough !
Leeds spent 95m! Also included some people who can run and tackle. Our last bossman didnt want that.
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splurging £100m doesnt = expansive football does it?
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Theres nothing wrong with the style of play.
No newly promoted team is going to play in the style of Man City and survive unless they have huge amounts of money to spend.
It’s your opinion that there’s nothing wrong with the style of play and that’s fair enough. I don’t like it however and that’s my opinion. As an example in a crucial home game where only a win is remotely good enough we adopt a safety first approach. No thanks.
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Theres nothing wrong with the style of play.
No newly promoted team is going to play in the style of Man City and survive unless they have huge amounts of money to spend.
which may or may not be true, BUT, that wasn't the situation Allardyce came into, his brief was a club 2nd from bottom needing to survive at all costs, keep em up!
having dramatically failed to shore up the defence, his task became win games, he has failed (thus far), time to go Sam !!
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aaaand whoosh ;D
I did think...surely this can't be serious, but tone is often lacking via text :D
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which may or may not be true, BUT, that wasn't the situation Allardyce came into, his brief was a club 2nd from bottom needing to survive at all costs, keep em up!
having dramatically failed to shore up the defence, his task became win games, he has failed (thus far), time to go Sam !!
He's made mistakes no doubt , I also believe he didn't clock on to the holes in this squad we saw from the first lockdown , you could also see how unfit they were too .
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Haven’t commented since Sunday. Personally think it’s all rather underwhelming. A few people praising Allardyce seems over the top. He hasn’t been as terrible as some say but he’s not been as good as some say, I am pretty ambivalent.
For me Sunday was the most disappointing. We play a home game against Newcastle who are without their 3 most creative players, they are fighting amongst themselves and have no form and we draw 0-0. In 16 games Allardyce has won 2. We talk about pragmatism and they are the facts.
I will wait and see how the rest of the season pans out but at the moment it’s pretty dull.
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Haven’t commented since Sunday. Personally think it’s all rather underwhelming. A few people praising Allardyce seems over the top. He hasn’t been as terrible as some say but he’s not been as good as some say, I am pretty ambivalent.
For me Sunday was the most disappointing. We play a home game against Newcastle who are without their 3 most creative players, they are fighting amongst themselves and have no form and we draw 0-0. In 16 games Allardyce has won 2. We talk about pragmatism and they are the facts.
I will wait and see how the rest of the season pans out but at the moment it’s pretty dull.
Agree with a lot of this but want to point out the misses from the last four or five games , we have players who can't hit the target from 8 yards out . Its not like we are not creating chances in fairness to Allardyce , its not been Pulis like since the loan players came in either . Waste really , take of those chances and we'd be in the mix ....that's old players and new missing BTW .
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Agree with a lot of this but want to point out the misses from the last four or five games , we have players who can't hit the target from 8 yards out . Its not like we are not creating chances in fairness to Allardyce , its not been Pulis like since the loan players came in either . Waste really , take of those chances and we'd be in the mix ....that's old players and new missing BTW .
and he has stopped us letting goals in for fun which is a big step as far as I am concerned.
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and he has stopped us letting goals in for fun which is a big step as far as I am concerned.
Open minded on Allardyce as a manager but he was slow doing that mate but then again in midfield there was little choice .
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Open minded on Allardyce as a manager but he was slow doing that mate but then again in midfield there was little choice .
There was no midfield in reality Dex.....the opposition walked through us for fun most of the time.
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There was no midfield in reality Dex.....the opposition walked through us for fun most of the time.
True , very true .
Shameful we starting with a midfield that started to fail months and months before .
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the sooner hes gone and we get young hungry in the better
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Agree with a lot of this but want to point out the misses from the last four or five games , we have players who can't hit the target from 8 yards out . Its not like we are not creating chances in fairness to Allardyce , its not been Pulis like since the loan players came in either . Waste really , take of those chances and we'd be in the mix ....that's old players and new missing BTW .
I agree to some degree on chances and I wouldn't compare Allardyce and Pulis and never have. I was pointing out that its ok but not great. Jo Masi on the baggies broadcast and others have said Albion are playing well. We aren't playing well we are better than we were and our defence is better. Playing devils advocate here are our results recently.
Fulham Drew 2-2
Sheff UTD Lost 2-1
Spurs Lost 2-0
Man Utd Drew 1-1
Burnley Drew 0-0
Brighton Won 1-0 (Brighton missed 2 penalties)
Everton Lost 0-1
Newcastle Drew 0-0.
You can argue we played well against Utd and should have beaten Burnley and drawn with Everton. By the same token Fulham should have beaten us so should Brighton. My point is we are just ok but you could hardly say Allardyce has really turned us around dramatically in terms of actual results.
This doesn't mean Allardyce is not a good manager (I actually think he has been) its more I feel pretty ambivalent as he hasn't turned us around hugely results wise. Newcastle on Sunday was such an important game and we were so average.
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I agree to some degree on chances and I wouldn't compare Allardyce and Pulis and never have. I was pointing out that its ok but not great. Jo Masi on the baggies broadcast and others have said Albion are playing well. We aren't playing well we are better than we were and our defence is better. Playing devils advocate here are our results recently.
Fulham Drew 2-2
Sheff UTD Lost 2-1
Spurs Lost 2-0
Man Utd Drew 1-1
Burnley Drew 0-0
Brighton Won 1-0 (Brighton missed 2 penalties)
Everton Lost 0-1
Newcastle Drew 0-0.
You can argue we played well against Utd and should have beaten Burnley and drawn with Everton. By the same token Fulham should have beaten us so should Brighton. My point is we are just ok but you could hardly say Allardyce has really turned us around dramatically in terms of actual results.
This doesn't mean Allardyce is not a good manager (I actually think he has been) its more I feel pretty ambivalent as he hasn't turned us around hugely results wise. Newcastle on Sunday was such an important game and we were so average.
Some good fair points , its better but it was in a mess .
Only thing I'd disagree with was the Fulham game as 2nd half we had the first 30 mins and should have seen that out .
Goals win games , winning games gives confidence .
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He has improved the defence at the expense of our attacking instincts. To win games you need to score goals. We need(ed) to win games !
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He has improved the defence at the expense of our attacking instincts. To win games you need to score goals. We need(ed) to win games !
Correct, and it’s easier to make a defence better organised than it is to be creative in the attacking sense.
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He has improved the defence at the expense of our attacking instincts. To win games you need to score goals. We need(ed) to win games !
I don't think that's really fair.....we had a non-existent attack before he came in too.
If Diagne could finish we'd have scored a fair few more goals.
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I don't think that's really fair.....we had a non-existent attack before he came in too.
If Diagne could finish we'd have scored a fair few more goals.
In recent games we’ve looked far more of a threat than we have done all season.. in addition to looking much better defensively
Diange, AMN, Phillips all guilty of missing some guilt edged chances in recent weeks
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Sam Allardyce is to managing what Ricky Lambert was to goal scoring, ie, past it when he arrived at B71.
This club has to stop investing in has beens both on & off the pitch !
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He has improved the defence at the expense of our attacking instincts. To win games you need to score goals. We need(ed) to win games !
Go tell Mr Klopp.......Defence is the first thing you get right!
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Sam Allardyce is to managing what Ricky Lambert was to goal scoring, ie, past it when he arrived at B71.
This club has to stop investing in has beens both on & off the pitch !
And what "coming uppers" would do the job?
Look around us nothing all bigger ££££ yet struggling. Sam is one of the last who knows the business. The rest rely on the bank balance.
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Go tell Mr Klopp.......Defence is the first thing you get right!
klippety purchased the solution to the scousers defensive problems and now his solution is crocked they are struggling,
super coach ? mega tactician ? good talent scout ? take your pick, i know which one i rate him as
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Think it’s irrelevant what we think about or whether we want him here next season because I think he’ll choose to walk away , he doesn’t seem to have the enthusiasm for the job now let alone people the hard grind that is the championship..
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Think it’s irrelevant what we think about or whether we want him here next season because I think he’ll choose to walk away , he doesn’t seem to have the enthusiasm for the job now let alone people the hard grind that is the championship..
I'm not sure. He's done similar before when he's just walked so it wouldn't surprise me, at his age I think he can choose to do as he wants, at least financially etc.
At the same time, if he does get relegated I can't see him having many jobs from the Premier League. So, I think he'll either stay or just retire for good but nothing in between.
I would like to keep him as the manager when we go down. I don't think he's a messiah but at the same time he is good enough to get is promoted again.
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Well today was awful, woeful, terrible why does he still play HRK baffles me.
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Dear Big Sam. Bring Robinson on, try Diangana for 20 minutes, swap Phillips for Snodgrass and for the love of god stop playing HRK! Also tell that idiot right back to stop handling the ball inside his box.
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He’s given up. Might as well get rid tonight because it’s now at the point where it’s negatively impacting on us next season, HRK won’t be here yet gets on ahead of Diangana, Grant and Robinson?
I’d say he’s the worst I’ve ever seen regarding using subs, I don’t remember him doing anything to change a game in his time at the club. Not that we have an array of game changers on the bench but it’s almost like he’s deliberately ignoring certain options to the detriment of the team.
Overall, not quite the negative dinosaur that I expected and has made us a bit more competitive defensively on a shoestring budget. I think his system negates our best player in Pereira and he’s been too reluctant to change it when we don’t even look like scoring, which is why we haven’t looked like closing the gap to 17th at any point since he joined. Not someone who I can see being interested in taking the job for the rebuild, and not someone I’d want (or ever wanted) in the job anyway.
Genuinely scary that Lai and Dowling’s next appointment will probably be worse.
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Well today was awful, woeful, terrible why does he still play HRK baffles me.
Well we are effectively a Championship side so why not play a Championship level Striker?
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May as well part ways with the club tonight. We are done as a Premier team so get in a hungry manager to see who he wants for a Championship bid.
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Well we are effectively a Championship side so why not play a Championship level Striker?
Because he is useless he couldn't even score in the Championship
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May as well part ways with the club tonight. We are done as a Premier team so get in a hungry manager to see who he wants for a Championship bid.
Pretty much what many of us suggested when he was appointed.
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He can't stop them making stupid errors. We're far more competitive than anyone could have hoped.
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He's stabilised us at the back with the addition of Okay to protect the back four but attacking wise we offer very little especially in the last 2 games against teams we should have had a go at add to that todays subs showing very little attacking intent. I wasn't convinced when we appointed him and nothing has changed overall to convince me now that he's the man for us.
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He’s not staying for next season so I wouldn’t be surprised if he left during this 3 week break. Made us a better team and we don’t lose by 3/4/5 anymore but we can’t grab a win. Shame but a risk worth taking, build for next season now
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He can't stop them making stupid errors. We're far more competitive than anyone could have hoped.
But we never look like scoring. He has tightened us up to the detriment of attacking ability.
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He can't stop them making stupid errors. We're far more competitive than anyone could have hoped.
I’d agree we are more competitive, however that alone was never going to be enough. The squad is simply not good enough.
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For me he’s worse than Pulis in his final year at the club. From day one he’s looked uninterested and just here for a final pay check. Sooner he goes the better for me.
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Said it last week Newcastle was actually the nadir. A cowardly 0-0 at home against a terrible, injury hit Newcastle.
People keep trying to say we are playing a lot better Under Sam. No we are no longer abject (which we were when he first came in). We can’t score and can’t win how is that playing well?
So far this upturn in form has seen us draw with Fulham, Draw with Burnley, Draw with Newcastle and lose to Palace. All sides around us.
I wouldn’t absolve the players of blame as they are at fault too. I would bin Dowling and personally get Steve Cooper on speed dial...
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Woeful performance from his charges today, shocking team selection from a bloke who doesn't look interested in keeping us up. As for bringing on HRK that did it for me, Taxi for Sam.
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But we never look like scoring. He has tightened us up to the detriment of attacking ability.
What detriment? We weren't winning long before he came.
The squad is poor. That is NOT Allardyce's fault. He is not god he cant create Ronaldo out of Robson-Kanu.
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Because he is useless he couldn't even score in the Championship
Yes he and Austin a total of 20 goals in our runner up season!
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What detriment? We weren't winning long before he came.
The squad is poor. That is NOT Allardyce's fault. He is not god he cant create Ronaldo out of Robson-Kanu.
So why does he keep bringing him on, what does Kanu offer zilch. He has made tougher to beat, which he deserves credit for. Its two wins in seveteen games. Those subs today have changed my mind on whether he should be here next season. A big fat no. Now is the time to get rid of him and look at Wilder, Howe etc.
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What detriment? We weren't winning long before he came.
The squad is poor. That is NOT Allardyce's fault. He is not god he cant create Ronaldo out of Robson-Kanu.
There’s zero need to play Robson-Kanu is there though? We could release him any day of the week and nobody would notice he’s gone. Yet that was Allardyce’s decision to bring him on for the player with by far our most goal contributions when we were desperate for a goal.
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I actually like Sam Allardyce as a person. However, I didn't want him as manager, even though I understand the clubs thinking, because I've never liked his style of football. Also, given the stage of his career, it was only ever going to be a short term appointment.
There's a lot wrong at the football club. Imagine if we'd have been promoted the season before when the Vile beat us, we've done well to beat Derby's low point total!
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Yes he and Austin a total of 20 goals in our runner up season!
Ok fair enough but one good season in how many for us had someone like Gayle or RodrÃguez been here or Zohore worked out well for us he wouldn't have got a chance.
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So why does he keep bringing him on, what does Kanu offer zilch. He has made tougher to beat, which he deserves credit for. Its two wins in seveteen games. Those subs today have changed my mind on whether he should be here next season. A big fat no. Now is the time to get rid of him and look at Wilder, Howe etc.
Because the rest of the squad is no better. Robinson is the latest "must play" among fans but he's no better.
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What detriment? We weren't winning long before he came.
The squad is poor. That is NOT Allardyce's fault. He is not god he cant create Ronaldo out of Robson-Kanu.
Agreed, many of us suggested it wouldn’t make any difference who was in charge given the players available.
Surely the club knew that as well which is why I was staggered when we appointed Allardyce when what we needed was a long term plan.
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The club gambled that the change in management would give us a better chance of survival and it's not worked.I don't think Allardyces approach to the modern game would get us out the championship.
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The club gambled that the change in management would give us a better chance of survival and it's not worked.I don't think Allardyces approach to the modern game would get us out the championship.
It was obvious it was a gamble that was destined to fail.
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The club gambled that the change in management would give us a better chance of survival and it's not worked.I don't think Allardyces approach to the modern game would get us out the championship.
Yeah it would and it would keep us up as well. Dont forget he has 4 players out of a 25 man squad that are his and three of them are on loan.
No manager on planet earth was going to keep us up with this squad I dont care who he was.
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Because the rest of the squad is no better. Robinson is the latest "must play" among fans but he's no better.
He may not be but he and others should have been given a chance. How many times as he bought HRK on and how many has he scored , indeed when he has come on how many have the team scored !?
Yeah it would and it would keep us up as well. Dont forget he has 4 players out of a 25 man squad that are his and three of them are on loan.
No manager on planet earth was going to keep us up with this squad I dont care who he was.
Only one out of those four has been particularly effective
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He may not be but he and others should have been given a chance. How many times as he bought HRK on and how many has he scored , indeed when he has come on how many have the team scored !?
The most threatening we’ve looked was at Wolves. Robinson and Grosicki in the side. Not had a sniff since.
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He may not be but he and others should have been given a chance. How many times as he bought HRK on and how many has he scored , indeed when he has come on how many have the team scored !?
He had plenty of chances early on in the season and other than against Chelsea he created and scored nothing.
He"s only good because he's not in the team.
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But we never look like scoring. He has tightened us up to the detriment of attacking ability.
I don't mind the way we set-up and the team starting overall (although I'd like to see Snodgrass in place of Phillips). What I find difficult to stomach is in these must win games with 20 minutes to go the managers lack of substitutions and Big Sam turning his nose-up at our better attacking players. No chance on this earth that Matt Phillips and HRK are going to trouble the Palace goal more than Diangana, Grant and Robinson. Yet none of them have got a look in. Robinson won two penalties at wolves not so long ago. Allardyce seems to have pushed them out of favour and shoved Pereira onto the left wing as well.
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The most threatening we’ve looked was at Wolves. Robinson and Grosicki in the side. Not had a sniff since.
I'd forgotten all about Grosicki. Again, a bit of pace and talent, that is lacking.
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The most threatening we’ve looked was at Wolves. Robinson and Grosicki in the side. Not had a sniff since.
That’s true. It’s bizarre.
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The most threatening we’ve looked was at Wolves. Robinson and Grosicki in the side. Not had a sniff since.
To be fair Wolves gifted us two penalties when there was very little danger to them. They had a bad day.
I agree with you re Grosicki though. I maintain the way he has been treated by the club is nothing short of disgusting.
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He had plenty of chances early on in the season and other than against Chelsea he created and scored nothing.
He"s only good because he's not in the team.
Robinson ,Grant , Grosicki, Edwards , Diangana all have a bit more to offer than HRK but none of them getting any meaningful game time but HRKS on nearly every week absolutely brainless or more likely with Allardyce a case of living in the past
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To be fair Wolves gifted us two penalties when there was very little danger to them. They had a bad day.
I agree with you re Grosicki though. I maintain the way he has been treated by the club is nothing short of disgusting.
Note the sharp movement from Robinson for those goals Atomic and the clever balls into his feet from Grosicki. All a bit bizarre the way our better technical players have been frozen out. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not privy to.
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Not the sharp movement from Robinson for those goals Atomic and the clever balls into his feet from Grosicki.
It's a push. I'd argue 9 times out of 10 those situations dont result in penalties. The first pen could even have been outside the box.
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Having a bit of the Bilic about him lately. Baffling choices in the starting 11, bizarre subs and a refusal to see what's wrong or just plain ignores it.
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It's a push. I'd argue 9 times out of 10 those situations dont result in penalties. The first pen could even have been outside the box.
The point is, only a complete lunatic would decide that HRK was the best option off the bench when we need a goal; then even worse, having done that and seen it fail last week, decide to repeat the experiment today, with the same outcome.
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People might say he has tightened us up but 2 goals in the last 7 games tells it's own story.
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He can't stop them making stupid errors. We're far more competitive than anyone could have hoped.
Really, competitive?? Not what the table suggests, needs to go, now !
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People might say he has tightened us up but 2 goals in the last 7 games tells it's own story.
Id argue they have made good chances in those games , finishing is awful .
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The point is, only a complete lunatic would decide that HRK was the best option off the bench when we need a goal; then even worse, having done that and seen it fail last week, decide to repeat the experiment today, with the same outcome.
What's that got to do with the Wolves game?
Personally I'd have gone to a diamond with Pereira at the top of it with Grant alongside Diagne up front.
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Do people really want him managing us in the championship?
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Do people really want him managing us in the championship?
No
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Do people really want him managing us in the championship?
No. An absolute embarrassment of an appointment. Always destined to fail.
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Do people really want him managing us in the championship?
I never wanted him here in the first place, however I’d be more interested what the club have to say in terms of long term planning.
If they were to give Allardyce a three year deal and say over to you, Downing has gone, I could at least understand they are using some form of logic.
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I hope he has the decency to go sooner rather than latter so at least can openly discuss his successor on this board. It was a quick fix that failed time to move on to the next one.
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His appointment has had no effect on us staying in league and just looking like he wants to increase his bank balance before he retires. Second time he's been involved in an Albion relegation.
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Do people really want him managing us in the championship?
Yes.
But I'm not like others and just decide someone is brilliant or rubbish.
I'd be happy to let Allardyce build us up and believe my word now you can take this to the bank and quote me on it:
ALLARDYCE WOULD GET US UP AND KEEP US UP.
There it's on record and I'm happy to take anyone on with that. I'm absolutely certain.
However, he isnt the only manager in the world we can work with, there are others out there who can succeed.
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Yes.
But I'm not like others and just decide someone is brilliant or rubbish.
I'd be happy to let Allardyce build us up and believe my word now you can take this to the bank and quote me on it:
ALLARDYCE WOULD GET US UP AND KEEP US UP.
There it's on record and I'm happy to take anyone on with that. I'm absolutely certain.
However, he isnt the only manager in the world we can work with, there are others out there who can succeed.
I really hope that we don’t see you proved incorrect
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Yes.
But I'm not like others and just decide someone is brilliant or rubbish.
I'd be happy to let Allardyce build us up and believe my word now you can take this to the bank and quote me on it:
ALLARDYCE WOULD GET US UP AND KEEP US UP.
There it's on record and I'm happy to take anyone on with that. I'm absolutely certain.
However, he isnt the only manager in the world we can work with, there are others out there who can succeed.
Excellent post. Spot on and sums up my thoughts.
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I really hope that we don’t see you proved incorrect
Trust me. I'll be proved right if he stays.
My gut instinct though is, I dont think he will stay.
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Will he be invited to stay though?
Personally I hope he's not here next season!
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Yes.
But I'm not like others and just decide someone is brilliant or rubbish.
I'd be happy to let Allardyce build us up and believe my word now you can take this to the bank and quote me on it:
ALLARDYCE WOULD GET US UP AND KEEP US UP.
There it's on record and I'm happy to take anyone on with that. I'm absolutely certain.
However, he isnt the only manager in the world we can work with, there are others out there who can succeed.
Well I reckon we'll be sitting with 12000 other fans watching us scrape 0 - 0 draws with Millwall.
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Yes.
But I'm not like others and just decide someone is brilliant or rubbish.
I'd be happy to let Allardyce build us up and believe my word now you can take this to the bank and quote me on it:
ALLARDYCE WOULD GET US UP AND KEEP US UP.
There it's on record and I'm happy to take anyone on with that. I'm absolutely certain.
However, he isnt the only manager in the world we can work with, there are others out there who can succeed.
Nice to see the humility that because someone states an opinion with some facts they are wrong :) What if other people don't think someone is brilliant or rubbish but give their articulated opinion thats different to yours?
I wasn't against Allardyce at the time and actually think he's a decent manager (his record proves it). I also don't think he is a dinosaur.
I just cannot get my head around any sense of positivity. People talking about how well we are playing and how much we have improved. That's because we were losing 4-0 and 5-0 each week under......Allardyce. We have won 1 game in 11 (and that's us on a good run). I know the squad is poor but surely the new manager is meant to improve us, I would argue we have stood still.
It comes to something and how far we have fallen when we are praising a 1-0 defeat at Palace, a 0-0 home draw to Newcastle like its some kind of achievement.
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Well I reckon we'll be sitting with 12000 other fans watching us scrape 0 - 0 draws with Millwall.
Then you're wrong straight away. Remember you made that comment because I will.
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One goal scored in last five games. It says it all to me. Rubbish. There is no certainty that he would get us promoted and I hope he’s not around to prove me wrong or indeed right on that prediction.
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His attitude on sideline stinks sitting on bench doing nothing to influence our players or formation. And before someone posts that little Sam is doing it for him then why does he bother even coming to game?
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Then you're wrong straight away. Remember you made that comment because I will.
Who can say? None of us have a crystal ball. I'd rather keep Allardyce than change managers yet again, although that doesn't mean I'm not completely cheesed off with his bench and subs recently. Promotion next season is going to an almighty struggle IMV because the championship is a very difficult and competitive league that wears teams down with so many games. So I'd snap your hand off for another 82 points now.
My wider concern is that until the board start to have realistic goals and start being honest about what can be achieved in one summer with our budget, then the fanbase is going to be expect miracles every season which is going to led to more anger when we fall short, then short-term firings in order to be seen to "do something" and then further long term decline as a revolving door of managers all have different idea and favourites. It's a vicious circle. Hence, let's keep Allardyce, provided he genuinely wants to stay and get us back up.
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His attitude on sideline stinks sitting on bench doing nothing to influence our players or formation. And before someone posts that little Sam is doing it for him then why does he bother even coming to game?
He has to turn up to make sure Phillips & HRK play and Sam then gets his slice of their appearance fee, allegedly!!! I can’t explain events which unfold weekly any other way!
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I'll defend him only on coming in to a weak , unfit squad of players . Physically and mentally weak at that .
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Well I reckon we'll be sitting with 12000 other fans watching us scrape 0 - 0 draws with Millwall.
If I only see 12000 of us in the ground post covid I'd be very disappointed ha!
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His attitude on sideline stinks
Absolutely 100% totally irrelevant. Some managers prowl a touch line, others scribble endless notes, others just sit there. None of it means anything.
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He has to turn up to make sure Phillips & HRK play and Sam then gets his slice of their appearance fee, I can’t explain events which unfold weekly any other way!
If any of those sorts of dark arts were in play I'd be firing him immediately, so I hope that isn't the case. Although his insistence on playing the old guard, and not giving the tippy-tappy players even any time off the bench, who admittedly are worse defensively but better in attack does seem at best destructively stubborn, in these must win games. God knows what is going on at the training ground, I'd love to find out one day.
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He quite simply doesn’t trust the players that are available to him.
The downside is that these are the players he needs to rely on should we be relegated.
That does not bode well for someone who may wish to remain here long term.
He might not trust them but there is no excuse for not utilising one of either Diangana or Robinson today in what is a must win game.
And before anyone slams either of the aforementioned players, this is a man whose first port of call is HRK who is significantly weaker in every area than the two players mentioned.
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Trust me. I'll be proved right if he stays.
My gut instinct though is, I dont think he will stay.
Let's hope and pray that we never get to find out.
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I think that Sam could make us competitive and we'd put in a reasonable challenge next season. However, what really concerns me is that he seriously doesn't fancy Diangana and Robbo - and I truly believe that, if motivated, they will both be crucial in a promotion challenge next season.
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I am not Pro Bilic or Anti Sam, when we sacked a manager when 4th in the league i stopped really being too bothered who was in charge.
However i dont see how people are saying it was Bilic fault but not Sams? Its a lot of peoples, We were a few points off safety when Bilic got sacked, we had a run of games where we had shown signs of being competitive including a point away at the best side in the country, we were never going to he anything more than competitive this season and three points from safety wasnt bad going and all those players supposedly so bad had got us to that position.
Big Sam has without doubt got us better at the back and he is no way to blame for missed chances v Burnley and Man United, however this period of games was supposedly our make or break, in that time we have beem awful and negative vs Sheffield United, Fulham, Newcastle and Palace, against Fulham we had a 20 minute spell second half where got two goals but then abandoned any attacking attempt.
We obviously had to tighten up at the back and the notion of keep it tight and nicking a goal would be fine if we werent so far behind and desperate for wins, but because we were so bad vs Villa, Leeds, Arsenal, Man City, Spurs we waved the white flag, as well as trying not to lose in 4 games against the rivals around us as per the above.
We had to be more positive, we wasnt and we are now in a positon of being a few points from safety when Sam took over to now pretty much relegated with a quarter of the season left.
Allardyce aim was to do what he specialised in and keep us up, that hasnt happened so the gamble has failed. He has to take a lot of the blame because in must wins we supposedly targeted, we played like we must not lose.
However the people who made the decisions are the most to blame, there were supposed doubts about Bilic in pre season, if that was the case they should of parted ways then and gave Allardyce the season.
Instead they did a cop out, they brought Allardyce in when in the middle of a lot of games where he has very little time to work with the players on the training field, we never sign players early in the window so if we didnt get rid of Bilic pre season, he should of been given until middle of January, assess then and then get rid and get Allardyce in, he said early on he already knew what needed sorting and could of done that coming in middle of January.
It was a badly timed decision which left us in no mans land, by the time we had got Allardyces players in end of January we had took 5 points from a possible 30 amd got knocked out the FA cup by a league one team!
When you take a gamble if it pays off you get the plaudits, when it fails you have to take the blame and the cold hard facts are we in a worse position now then when Allardyce took over and by a long way too.
I wanted him to succeed as i think based on his past teams, had we stayed up, we may of added a bit of flair and become a steady club, there were the odd signs but when it came to the big season defining games we didnt get the results needed and i dont think approached those games the right way, along with is demeanour, i think Big Sam has lost his aura and would like us to part ways asap.
He may do a job next season in the championship but as a fan the prospect gives me no enthusiasm, we should get rid now and have a fresh start with so many players leaving, I think he is respected for his past achievements (i respect him anyway) but i dont think he is liked by a lot of the Albion fan base and things could get toxic very quick next year with fans back in the ground, more so than a new manager would have to face, especially as there will be an expectancy to be promoted.
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One goal scored in last five games. It says it all to me. Rubbish. There is no certainty that he would get us promoted and I hope he’s not around to prove me wrong or indeed right on that prediction.
Exactly, and that's in games that have been must win.
His comments today about us missing too many chance and basically pinning the blame on Diagne are disgraceful. It'd his own signing.
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Despite the lack of positive results under both of our managers , in my opinion Big Sam has made us a better team . My reasoning is that we have failed to be an attacking threat under Slav and Big Sam , however now under Big Sam we at least look like a Prem team defensively. Yes, the substitutions today could have been better but for people to call for Karlan Grant given his performances this season is frankly baffling . Finally I do agree re the comments regarding Kamil Grosicki , I would have loved to have seen him alongside our January signings because I think the man is a real talent .
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He took Pierera off to bring on Kanu. I'd have rather have seen us stick Bartley up top and hit it long to him than Kanu on the pitch. At least that would have been different.
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We should sack Sam Allardyce tomorrow.
The reasons:
1) When he took over it was clear the worst performing area was central midfield. He has access to all the stats / videos of every game / 30 years management experience behind him. After the drubbings by Villa, Leeds, Arsenal it was clear we needed to drop Livermore & Sawyers. He persisted right until the end of Jan until Okay & AMN were available. What was wrong with buying a young, energetic midfielder at low cost on 3rd Jan?
2) Why deploy Pereira wide when his best position is AM?
3) Best attacking performance was Dingles away. Robinson hasn't been seen since why?
4) Phillips over Diangana?
5) HRK game time, why?
Allardyce isn't making best use of resources, a lack of common sense being applied.
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Even Big Sam can't save this lot, we are undoubtedly playing better football but the must-win games have now gone. If he does not want to commit to next year and overseeing the rebuild. I think the club should start discussions to part amicably and start looking for a manager who wants to be with us next season.
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He quite simply doesn’t trust the players that are available to him.
The downside is that these are the players he needs to rely on should we be relegated.
That does not bode well for someone who may wish to remain here long term.
He might not trust them but there is no excuse for not utilising one of either Diangana or Robinson today in what is a must win game.
And before anyone slams either of the aforementioned players, this is a man whose first port of call is HRK who is significantly weaker in every area than the two players mentioned.
I don't get why he doesn't give Robinson a go, got to be better than Kanu
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One positive today , we are now averaging under 2 goals conceded per game for the first time in the Prem this season !
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Long may he reign!
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Our biggest problem on the field now is in the final third and setting up good goal scoring chances. The key players here are:
Pereira: He is potentially the most creative player, but he is making too many basic passing errors at the moment. Also lots of his set piece kicks are either overhit or don't beat the first defender. However, even if he is playing poor by his standards, the players available to replace him are not as good at what he does.
AMN: Has brought alot more dynamism and a change of pace to the midfield, but his final passes have been poor. Alot of overhit passes or ones just behind or too much in front of intended receivers. Those are the small differences in between setting up a decent chance or not.
Gallagher: Having a player who can carry the ball forward is a major asset, but he often holds onto the ball too long. Just tries to beat one player too many or dribbles straight into a cluster. Needs better oversight.
Phillips: Has the ability to get around defenders and deliver good crosses, as he showed first half today, but his energy levels drop as the game goes on, and so he drifts out of the game.
Furlong and Townsend: Both get forward enough to deliver crosses, but many of Furlong's today were way off the mark. The full backs also need to vary things a bit, by sometimes cutting inside and playing shorter passes in to feet to create shooting opportunities.
If Big Sam is still up for this, he needs to spend much more time getting these players practising passing in and around the box, as well as delivering better crosses. We urgently need to create more goal chances.
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Our biggest problem on the field now is in the final third and setting up good goal scoring chances. The key players here are:
Pereira: He is potentially the most creative player, but he is making too many basic passing errors at the moment. Also lots of his set piece kicks are either overhit or don't beat the first defender. However, even if he is playing poor by his standards, the players available to replace him are not as good at what he does.
AMN: Has brought alot more dynamism and a change of pace to the midfield, but his final passes have been poor. Alot of overhit passes or ones just behind or too much in front of intended receivers. Those are the small differences in between setting up a decent chance or not.
Gallagher: Having a player who can carry the ball forward is a major asset, but he often holds onto the ball too long. Just tries to beat one player too many or dribbles straight into a cluster. Needs better oversight.
Phillips: Has the ability to get around defenders and deliver good crosses, as he showed first half today, but his energy levels drop as the game goes on, and so he drifts out of the game.
Furlong and Townsend: Both get forward enough to deliver crosses, but many of Furlong's today were way off the mark. The full backs also need to vary things a bit, by sometimes cutting inside and playing shorter passes in to feet to create shooting opportunities.
If Big Sam is still up for this, he needs to spend much more time getting these players practising passing in and around the box, as well as delivering better crosses. We urgently need to create more goal chances.
academic now ! Especially Gallagher / AMN paragraphs.
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Our interest in Allardyce may depend on Wilders interest in us.
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Even Big Sam can't save this lot, we are undoubtedly playing better football but the must-win games have now gone. If he does not want to commit to next year and overseeing the rebuild. I think the club should start discussions to part amicably and start looking for a manager who wants to be with us next season.
In my opinions are not playing better football. We are playing basic percentage football, get it into the box and hope something happens. We create nothing, the few chances we have come from a lucky bounce in the area. I struggle to think of one single chance we’ve created through a great pass or individual piece of skill - certainly nothing today.
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In my opinions are not playing better football. We are playing basic percentage football, get it into the box and hope something happens. We create nothing, the few chances we have come from a lucky bounce in the area. I struggle to think of one single chance we’ve created through a great pass or individual piece of skill - certainly nothing today.
the correct term is "pragmatic", for me its "awful"
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Prepare or I will to watch this boring football after watching decent attacking football before hand as we will probably be last on MOTD
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the correct term is "pragmatic", for me its "awful"
No, pragmatism is getting the job done but not in the most attractive way. He is only achieving the second part.
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We need to reset and recalibrate, now that we are relegated.
Sam obviously didn’t care two hoots yesterday - his demeanour on the bench said as much.
I’m saying it now - we need to sack him today, and get someone in who can start preparing for life in the championship.
Goodbye and good riddance Sam.
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Don't think club can afford to sack him unless Lai puts his hand in pocket so they will probably go down the Clueless route and embarrasse him into leaving by mutual consent. Only problem with this plan is Sam likes the money a little bit too much, so we're probably stuck with him until summer when aledge break in contract.
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There is less than zero point in sacking him now if it costs us money if as reported there is a break clause at the end of the season just let this season bleed out.
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There is less than zero point in sacking him now if it costs us money if as reported there is a break clause at the end of the season just let this season bleed out.
Hopefully he will walk to protect his' Never been relegated from the Premier League' tag!
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I did post earlier saying the walk away clause can be used by either club or Allardyce but it's been removed. As Standaman says absolutely no point sacking him now.
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It will cost us whether he stays or we sack him. I’d rather he went now and give a new man a few extra months to bed in.
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It will cost us whether he stays or we sack him. I’d rather he went now and give a new man a few extra months to bed in.
But it won't cost us if we exercise the breakaway clause. That's the point?
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There is less than zero point in sacking him now if it costs us money if as reported there is a break clause at the end of the season just let this season bleed out.
We can get someone in before every other club start chasing the same folks.
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We can get someone in before every other club start chasing the same folks.
But those in charge are incapable of thinking like that Albionic - it’s the the Albion way.
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But those in charge are incapable of thinking like that Albionic - it’s the the Albion way.
I wish I didn't agree with this. Now would be the perfect time to get someone totally fresh in. IF we change manager, they will be appointed just before the start of the season.
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I wish I didn't agree with this. Now would be the perfect time to get someone totally fresh in. IF we change manager, they will be appointed just before the start of the season.
yep, just in time to get the loanees in !
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What's this 'thing' between him and Ravel Morrision?
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What's this 'thing' between him and Ravel Morrision?
From the Athletic in not so many words Morrison felt Allardyce was trying to force him to change agent to the same agent as Sam uses. MOrrison said he was told he would likely get a new contract but once he said he wont use Sams agent the contract never came.
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Allardyce from OS: "Same old story we never liked like scoring despite the creating some good situations in the final 3rd".
What exactly do you expect playing Phillips from the start, introducing HRK for our most dangerous attacker in Pereira on 63 mins, leaving the man (Robinson) who won 2 penalties at Molineux and a guy who cost £18 on the bench (Diangana).
Allardyce us a stubborn old man who is not picking the obvious team selection that the stats & facts present to him.
As a result we are hardly any better off in the pts per game ratio than Bilic, despite him having the benefit of signings from the January window.
Not good enough and money for old rope. If he cared he'd walk away and protect this "never been relegated" record.
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There will be no 'walking away' in my view. Just think of the financial implications to him personally if he did so.
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There will be no 'walking away' in my view. Just think of the financial implications to him personally if he did so.
He could ask for a nice Payoff
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He could ask for a nice Payoff
Well he could try but I think he will get a polite but firm 'no' as an answer.
He has done nothing to warrant a payoff.
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I don't want to see any more money wasted on smiling Sam so lets' reach the mutual break point if one does indeed exist. We could be researching a replacement but do we trust those in charge to find someone suitable?
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I don't want to see any more money wasted on smiling Sam so lets' reach the mutual break point if one does indeed exist. We could be researching a replacement but do we trust those in charge to find someone suitable?
I bet they're doing due diligence on Aitor Karanka as we speak :(
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If every the term "by mutual consent" was appropriate, I'd say this is it...
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Allardyce from OS: "Same old story we never liked like scoring despite the creating some good situations in the final 3rd".
What exactly do you expect playing Phillips from the start, introducing HRK for our most dangerous attacker in Pereira on 63 mins, leaving the man (Robinson) who won 2 penalties at Molineux and a guy who cost £18 on the bench (Diangana).
Allardyce us a stubborn old man who is not picking the obvious team selection that the stats & facts present to him.
As a result we are hardly any better off in the pts per game ratio than Bilic, despite him having the benefit of signings from the January window.
Not good enough and money for old rope. If he cared he'd walk away and protect this "never been relegated" record.
It is complete bollhooks freezing out Robinson for HRK off the bench, what is that all about?
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It is complete bollhooks freezing out Robinson for HRK off the bench, what is that all about?
I agree, indefensible really. I was listing to a podcast with Glenn Little, ex-Burnley winer talking about his time at Bolton under Big Sam. Came off the bench, got an assist and then was never played again, and he couldn't understand it either.
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Anyone see the article on The Athletic and clip about Ravel Morrison and Sam? RM alledges that Sam tried to pressurise him into switching agents to Curtis - who Sam has a long history of links with - and when he said no, that's when he was drummed out the team. Sam says it's not true and has his lawyers on the case so video taken down. FA have said they're aware of the accusations.
Plenty of West Ham fans think RM is telling the truth and that during Sam's time at West Ham a crazy amount of players ended up on Curtis' books. Curtis has history of dodgy dealings and has been fined previously.
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Anyone see the article on The Athletic and clip about Ravel Morrison and Sam? RM alledges that Sam tried to pressurise him into switching agents to Curtis - who Sam has a long history of links with - and when he said no, that's when he was drummed out the team. Sam says it's not true and has his lawyers on the case so video taken down. FA have said they're aware of the accusations.
Plenty of West Ham fans think RM is telling the truth and that during Sam's time at West Ham a crazy amount of players ended up on Curtis' books. Curtis has history of dodgy dealings and has been fined previously.
This is old news something about this was on here not long after he came.
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No smoke without fire ! Leopards don't change their spots ! Once a cliche always a cliche !!
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Allardyce has lawyers on speed dial obviously a much misunderstood and maligned man for no good reason (we can't get too involved in this topic) because well lawyers.....
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I think this goes about as far as we're able to go at the present time, what with it reportedly heading to court.
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2021/03/15/view-big-sam-could-be-distracted-from-west-brom-task-after-mounting-morrison-legal-defence/
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This is old news something about this was on here not long after he came.
It popped back up as he was interviewed on Rio Ferdinands podcast thing where he discussed it openly.
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He will be nowhere near the Albion when this comes to court, if he sticks to the same timescale used when he threatened to sue the BBC in 2006.
The BBC are still awaiting the writ......
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Personally, unless he's a murderer or a rapist or a paedo I dont give a flying sponge cake about anything other than how Allardyce is managing our team. The fact that he supported Wolves as a kid - I'm 47 years old not 8. Anyone with any objection to him on that score is pathetic and juvenile. Sorry mods but come on!
Results aren't great at the moment but the problem isnt the manager it's the players. Whoever is in charge has no chance with this squad and that's not the fault of Allardyce its Dowling and Bilic combined. Added to the fact that we have extremely limitted funds due to having a completely useless owner.
Allardyce is doing fine given what he has to work with.
Whether or not he's the man to take us forward post this season depends on whether or not he wants to for one thing.
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Anyone see the article on The Athletic and clip about Ravel Morrison and Sam? RM alledges that Sam tried to pressurise him into switching agents to Curtis - who Sam has a long history of links with - and when he said no, that's when he was drummed out the team. Sam says it's not true and has his lawyers on the case so video taken down. FA have said they're aware of the accusations.
Plenty of West Ham fans think RM is telling the truth and that during Sam's time at West Ham a crazy amount of players ended up on Curtis' books. Curtis has history of dodgy dealings and has been fined previously.
or could it be that Morrison was bobbins and Sam dropped him? His record is not good to be fair, he makes HRK look like Mbappe.
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Even Slurr Alex couldn't get a tune out of RM.
Bags of talent but an attitude that stinks. Has lived off the one decent goal he scored against Spurs years ago.
Sounds like very old sour grapes from someone who's career is effectively over.
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Personally, unless he's a murderer or a rapist or a paedo I dont give a flying sponge cake about anything other than how Allardyce is managing our team.
Allardyce is doing fine given what he has to work with.
Thanks for clarifying where your benchmark for a manager sits.
If Allardyce is doing fine, the mind boggles at what doing badly would look like.
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Thanks for clarifying where your benchmark for a manager sits.
If Allardyce is doing fine, the mind boggles at what doing badly would look like.
To be fair Atomic also said 'with what he has got to work with' which is a reasonable championship quality squad and absolutely no money, so I don't think he is too far away.
We are still rubbish though but at least he has shored up the defence. A bit like sticking lipstick on a pig but you know what I mean.....
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To be fair Atomic also said 'with what he has got to work with' which is a reasonable championship quality squad and absolutely no money, so I don't think he is too far away.
You may accept Allardyce sending out the same failing team game after game.
You may accept our most creative player being shunted to an inappropriate position to accommodate a loanee who is failing in his attempt to prove he is a competent centre midfielder.
You may accept not using other attacking substitute options than HRK.
I don't.
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Results aren't great at the moment but the problem isnt the manager it's the players. Whoever is in charge has no chance with this squad and that's not the fault of Allardyce its Dowling and Bilic combined. Added to the fact that we have extremely limitted funds due to having a completely useless owner.
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Interested to know how is it possible to praise Allardyce and, at one and the same time, heap blame on the guy (Dowling) that presumably hired him?
I get it. It's everybody's fault: the players, the DoF, the owner, the tea lady, we sceptics except Smiling Sam's - "Look viewers I only took this gig on for a laugh"
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.... "Look viewers I only took this gig on for a laugh"
If he's only doing it for a laugh you'd think he'd smile once in a while before donating his pay to the Albion Foundation........ now there's a laugh ;D .
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You may accept Allardyce sending out the same failing team game after game.
What other option does he have?
I see people calling for Robinson, Diangana but let's not forget they started the season in the team, they are not that good.
Allardyce has had ONE transfer window where he was able to bring in ONE player and three loans. This is nowhere near his squad.
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What other option does he have?
I see people calling for Robinson, Diangana but let's not forget they started the season in the team, they are not that good.
Allardyce has had ONE transfer window where he was able to bring in ONE player and three loans. This is nowhere near his squad.
In all fairness if you were boss and needed a goal in a must win game would you send HRK on before Robinson?
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You may accept Allardyce sending out the same failing team game after game.
You may accept our most creative player being shunted to an inappropriate position to accommodate a loanee who is failing in his attempt to prove he is a competent centre midfielder.
You may accept not using other attacking substitute options than HRK.
I don't.
Thank you for your assumptions.
Not sure what team you expect him to send out, perhaps we should borrow Man City and send them out instead.
I do accept that Pereira out wide is odd but I think that you are expecting too much of him. Lets be honest he has not been that good this season has he?
Attacking options other than HRK... talk me through them please.....
The fact is the team are not good enough [with the exception of Johnstone], Sam is a late arrival to the party as far as our demise is concerned. He is doing the best he can but it is a total lost cause due to bad planning, no investment and complete lack of interest by the owner.
I will tell you what I do accept, we are going down.
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In all fairness if you were boss and needed a goal in a must win game would you send HRK on before Robinson?
I wouldn't want to send on either of them to be honest.
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I wouldn't want to send on either of them to be honest.
I agree, Robinson is not that good either. Obviously scared himself against Chelsea and we have not seen that player since.
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What other option does he have?
I see people calling for Robinson, Diangana but let's not forget they started the season in the team, they are not that good.
Allardyce has had ONE transfer window where he was able to bring in ONE player and three loans. This is nowhere near his squad.
How many players is he supposed to bring in? 8 or 9? That's not sustainable on a short term appointment. He's hardly likely to be here much longer than a year and the club can't afford to bring in effectively a new squad for each change of manager. Then when he departs, does that mean another 8 or 9 changes?
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How many players is he supposed to bring in? 8 or 9? That's not sustainable on a short term appointment. He's hardly likely to be here much longer than a year and the club can't afford to bring in effectively a new squad for each change of manager. Then when he departs, does that mean another 8 or 9 changes?
It will do this summer yes. Whether he leaves or not.
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What other option does he have?
I see people calling for Robinson, Diangana but let's not forget they started the season in the team, they are not that good.
Allardyce has had ONE transfer window where he was able to bring in ONE player and three loans. This is nowhere near his squad.
Any option is better than sending on HRK.
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It will do this summer yes. Whether he leaves or not.
Fans have unrealistic expectations with their shopping lists. 8 or 9 new players have to be paid for out of a limited budget. Even if we sell Johnstone, Pereira that won't generate alot of funds.
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8 or 9 players is not doable under many circumstances . If as seems likely we go down we will probably have to find a new manager first which in turn makes a large turnover in players even harder , it will almost inevitably lead to some being kept that many on here would get rid of at the drop of a hat !
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Fans have unrealistic expectations with their shopping lists. 8 or 9 new players have to be paid for out of a limited budget. Even if we sell Johnstone, Pereira that won't generate alot of funds.
My comment was based on 4 loans returning and 6 out of contract before you consider deadwood like JL and our actual saleable assets who may be sold to raise funds. I think 8 or 9 incoming is not just possible it's likely.
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The amount of dead wood we are shifting on bloated wages should fund 8 new players wages alone.
Big summer ahead. Over to Dowling it seems.
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8 or 9 players is not doable under many circumstances . If as seems likely we go down we will probably have to find a new manager first which in turn makes a large turnover in players even harder , it will almost inevitably lead to some being kept that many on here would get rid of at the drop of a hat !
Just the statement we may need 8 or 9 players should raise alarm bells about our recruitment and who is doing that. We also failed to address problem positions for 2 seasons(DM, CF etc) Along with that some of our best players this season are on loan. We also aren’t sure who the manager will be and we have an owner who wants to sell.
Other than that I think we are are gold :)
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Without derailing the Allardyce too far, if we discount loans that are finishing (AMN, Diagne, Gallagher, Yokuslu), then the players out of contract are:
Gibbs
HRK
Peltier
Grosicki
Ivanovic
Lonergan
Edwards
(Townsend but I think he signed a new contract recently?)
The first four of those will be on a decent amount between them, which could fund some useful additions.
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Towsend signed a new contract. HRK is on 37k pw, Gibbs 60k, Grosikii 40k Peltier 10k (pure guess) thats 140k per week, flexed down thats 70k per week for little contribution. If we cant use that gift of 70k per week well then time to give it all up.
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Whoever replaces Allardyce will have to get a tune out of players that have largely been discarded by Allardyce including some of those that have been out on loan this season. We always need quality not quantity and 8 or 9 man shopping lists in a tight financial environment will not deliver quality.
We can conjure £m's of funds from moving on players that ain't moving on or would actually cost us money to move on but the reality is a tight budget that might stretch to 5 quality additions at best. We desperately need a coach who can work with what he's got rather than one that has one fixed idea that has to be supported with funds that aren't there.
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Whoever replaces Allardyce will have to get a tune out of players that have largely been discarded by Allardyce including some of those that have been out on loan this season. We always need quality not quantity and 8 or 9 man shopping lists in a tight financial environment will not deliver quality.
We can conjure £m's of funds from moving on players that ain't moving on or would actually cost us money to move on but the reality is a tight budget that might stretch to 5 quality additions at best. We desperately need a coach who can work with what he's got rather than one that has one fixed idea that has to be supported with funds that aren't there.
It's almost like Dowling built a squad with no identifiable style in mind...
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Even Slurr Alex couldn't get a tune out of RM.
Bags of talent but an attitude that stinks. Has lived off the one decent goal he scored against Spurs years ago.
Sounds like very old sour grapes from someone who's career is effectively over.
He signed Taibi and Djemba Djemba
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It's almost like Dowling built a squad with no identifiable style in mind...
I'm not sure what people realistically expect from a tin-pot budget. We massively over performed to get promoted last season, then gave ourselves no chance this year with the tiny budget. Dowling was limited to begging and borrowing for new players and we were last in the queue as we had no cash.
The larger the turnover of players the harder it is to get the right quality in and to get a team that gels into a top unit. We did a remarkable job last time to get a tune out of a lot of average players and to bring exciting youth team players in, sprinkled with a bit of star dust. We will also face fierce competition for promotion from the 3/4 good championship sides who don't get promoted and the two teams that come down with us. It is an enormous task next season and we are worse off now with Diangana ghosted, Robinson disappeared and Pereira looking lost. It's a complete mess. That's the problem with short term decision making. We would have been better off doing a Norwich. If feels like we have just completed wasted this season and not only that, gone backwards.
I'd keep Allardyce if he wants to stay providing he's prepared to back some of our better players from last year. Else, we may as well get rid and get a manager in who won't alienate some of our better players.
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When he came Sam basically we needed 2 or 3 goals every match to compete because of our defence.
Now we can't even get one.Just one goal against Burnley,Everton,Newcastle and Palace and we would have another 6points and still be in touch.
Against Palace we had lost once they scored yet two strikers and a striker/provider on the bench were not used.Is there any one reading this who wouldn't have used at least one if not all of them.
Also same question is there anyone who wouldn't have Grosicki on the bench rather than Kanu as an option to bring on after about 70 minutes if a goal was needed?
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When he came Sam basically we needed 2 or 3 goals every match to compete because of our defence.
Now we can't even get one.Just one goal against Burnley,Everton,Newcastle and Palace and we would have another 6points and still be in touch.
Against Palace we had lost once they scored yet two strikers and a striker/provider on the bench were not used.Is there any one reading this who wouldn't have used at least one if not all of them.
Also same question is there anyone who wouldn't have Grosicki on the bench rather than Kanu as an option to bring on after about 70 minutes if a goal was needed?
I'm with you mate.
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When he came Sam basically we needed 2 or 3 goals every match to compete because of our defence.
Now we can't even get one.Just one goal against Burnley,Everton,Newcastle and Palace and we would have another 6points and still be in touch.
Against Palace we had lost once they scored yet two strikers and a striker/provider on the bench were not used.Is there any one reading this who wouldn't have used at least one if not all of them.
Also same question is there anyone who wouldn't have Grosicki on the bench rather than Kanu as an option to bring on after about 70 minutes if a goal was needed?
Early last year I seem to remember that we were scoring goals from every position on the field except for Sam. All that has dried up and you have to wonder why. And before someone says Allardyce, this started at the tail end of last season.
I am sort of with you with the post but I am struggling to remember when Grosicki actually tore the opposition a new one in Albion colours.
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He signed Taibi and Djemba Djemba
He also signed Ronaldo, Cantona, Schmeichel and Van Persie to name a few.
Everyone makes mistakes.....
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He also signed Ronaldo, Cantona, Schmeichel and Van Persie to name a few.
Everyone makes mistakes.....
Van Nistelrooy too ! His stats are freakin incredible, far superior to CR7's
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We should be doing everything we can to build a team around Diangana and Pierera next season. We've seen that they can tear that division up. Without them, where's our creativity? If we sell Pierera for big bucks, realistically we're not going to sign another one as players of that quality, willing to come to the Championship, are rare.
It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
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We should be doing everything we can to build a team around Diangana and Pierera next season. We've seen that they can tear that division up. Without them, where's our creativity? If we sell Pierera for big bucks, realistically we're not going to sign another one as players of that quality, willing to come to the Championship, are rare.
It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
All about the manager, a Sam type will want to grind our way to promotion rather than adopt a Mowbray / Bilic style. I know which I prefer, I cling to the hope ...
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We should be doing everything we can to build a team around Diangana and Pierera next season. We've seen that they can tear that division up. Without them, where's our creativity? If we sell Pierera for big bucks, realistically we're not going to sign another one as players of that quality, willing to come to the Championship, are rare.
It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
I couldn't agree more with this. We've returned to looking turgid, bland and clueless. We've shorn up defence sure but at the cost of zero creativity and firepower. Absolutely detest our style of play now.
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I couldn't agree more with this. We've returned to looking turgid, bland and clueless. We've shorn up defence sure but at the cost of zero creativity and firepower. Absolutely detest our style of play now.
agree,whilst I detest it, I can sort of reconcile myself to it as the challenge is so different in the prem, BUT in the chumps, Stating the bleeding obvious but in the chumps 38 points is not the target, we a) need to win games, draws are not good enough, b) need to entertain, as its a minimum expectation at this level, to adopt a turgid / attritional attitude against Rotherham at home is just not acceptable. (No offence to Rotherham fans wandering through here (PC disclaimer) ;D)
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We should be doing everything we can to build a team around Diangana and Pierera next season. We've seen that they can tear that division up. Without them, where's our creativity? If we sell Pierera for big bucks, realistically we're not going to sign another one as players of that quality, willing to come to the Championship, are rare.
It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
You could say we have by retaining the majority of last seasons team, and therein lies the problem....
Periera is not the same player in this division for me, he wants too much time on the ball and he is quite selfish. After the Chelsea game Robinson has done nothing, and Grady has been injured for some of the time, but when he does get playing time he is easily pushed off the ball. Hopefully that is down to a fitness issue but I do wonder.....
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We should be doing everything we can to build a team around Diangana and Pierera next season. We've seen that they can tear that division up. Without them, where's our creativity? If we sell Pierera for big bucks, realistically we're not going to sign another one as players of that quality, willing to come to the Championship, are rare.
It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
Completely right, and if we can get back up, all three of them will have another year's experience, and also have had a go in the Prem and know exactly how tough it is from the word go.
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I couldn't agree more with this. We've returned to looking turgid, bland and clueless. We've shorn up defence sure but at the cost of zero creativity and firepower. Absolutely detest our style of play now.
Agreed. The first step needs to be to get rid of Allardyce one way or the other. I don't care if it's him who walks away, the club who sack him, or by mutual consent, as long as he's gone. My biggest fear is that, once relegation is confirmed or nearly confirmed, we start winning a few games (which a lot of teams in that position do, no pressure etc) and this persuades the club to keep him on.
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Please just get rid of him - He has failed, he knows it, we knew he would but hoped he wouldn't. There is no more point to him continuing to damage and unsettle our attacking options such as they were, by such stupidly weak management in allowing loan players to dictate where they want to play. These last few games should be used as part of the assessment process for a new manager and hopefully, but not likely a new DOF in prep for next seasons challenge.
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Completely right, and if we can get back up, all three of them will have another year's experience, and also have had a go in the Prem and know exactly how tough it is from the word go.
[/b]
Its not them that need to know this though, its our wonderful board.
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All about the manager, a Sam type will want to grind our way to promotion rather than adopt a Mowbray / Bilic style. I know which I prefer, I cling to the hope ...
I think you are absolutely right. And for what it is worth I think there is no chance Sam will be our manager next season (he says with fingers crossed) 8)
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......It feels like we're sacrificing Diangana\Pierera\Robinson in a vague attempt at sneaking the odd point here and there.
The irony being we now have a striker who could bring the best out of those if they were played as a three, but when we play the striker we only play one of the three and not in his best position.
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I'm not sure what people realistically expect from a tin-pot budget. We massively over performed to get promoted last season, then gave ourselves no chance this year with the tiny budget. Dowling was limited to begging and borrowing for new players and we were last in the queue as we had no cash.
The larger the turnover of players the harder it is to get the right quality in and to get a team that gels into a top unit. We did a remarkable job last time to get a tune out of a lot of average players and to bring exciting youth team players in, sprinkled with a bit of star dust. We will also face fierce competition for promotion from the 3/4 good championship sides who don't get promoted and the two teams that come down with us. It is an enormous task next season and we are worse off now with Diangana ghosted, Robinson disappeared and Pereira looking lost. It's a complete mess. That's the problem with short term decision making. We would have been better off doing a Norwich. If feels like we have just completed wasted this season and not only that, gone backwards.
I'd keep Allardyce if he wants to stay providing he's prepared to back some of our better players from last year. Else, we may as well get rid and get a manager in who won't alienate some of our better players.
I'm not completely against keeping Sam and think he would have an head start on anyone coming in new, as regards knowing the squad.
But if I had a wish it would be to Get a progressive manager in who plays fast attacking football, like Leeds, Norwich and Sheffield Utd couple of seasons ago.
Id like to have a manager who has premier league experience so he knows what to expect if we are promoted and last, has a point to prove.
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I'm not completely against keeping Sam and think he would have an head start on anyone coming in new, as regards knowing the squad.
But if I had a wish it would be to Get a progressive manager in who plays fast attacking football, like Leeds, Norwich and Sheffield Utd couple of seasons ago.
Id like to have a manager who has premier league experience so he knows what to expect if we are promoted and last, has a point to prove.
I agree with all of this, particularly the latter point. I think that is what we got with Roy when he came from the aftermath of Liverpool. Though I think we need a young mind now at the helm.
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I'm not completely against keeping Sam and think he would have an head start on anyone coming in new, as regards knowing the squad.
But if I had a wish it would be to Get a progressive manager in who plays fast attacking football, like Leeds, Norwich and Sheffield Utd couple of seasons ago.
Id like to have a manager who has premier league experience so he knows what to expect if we are promoted and last, has a point to prove.
You mean someone like Bilic? ;D
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You mean someone like Bilic? ;D
Ho ho!!! Looking forward to this.....
EDIT: Well that didn't kick off like I was hoping. ;)
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Ho ho!!! Looking forward to this.....
EDIT: Well that didn't kick off like I was hoping. ;)
Be the same again. Put a post up a bit back. All down to the budget and of course the right man. The latter won't come as the former constricts. Same as ever been!
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So what do people think?. Is he going to stay or take advantage of the rumoured break clause?
I was for him staying a few weeks ago but the lack of fight and questionable subs in the last couple of games have changed my mind. I think he looks tired and out of ideas.
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With any luck Sam will be, like Pulis, extinct by the end of the season.
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So what do people think?. Is he going to stay or take advantage of the rumoured break clause?
I was for him staying a few weeks ago but the lack of fight and questionable subs in the last couple of games have changed my mind. I think he looks tired and out of ideas.
Personally I think he will go, only because he is fed up of dealing with the clowns on the board. Wouldn't blame him tbh..... champagne football on Brew XI wages is a totally unsustainable plan mid or long term.
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Just a polite reminder that we don't allow names to be suggested for a new manager while we have someone in post.
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Just a polite reminder that we don't allow names to be suggested for a new manager while we have someone in post.
Apologies Hull, I was responding to another post.
For the record I would not 'suggest' any of those names and a whole host more. I am perfectly satisfied with Sam being here next year but I know I am in the minority on that one......
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I think he is going to stay until the maths finally confirm where we are headed. Just my opinion.
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Either way nothing is going to change here until the break clause comes into play be that at the end of the season or when we get mathematical confirmation of relegation.
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The only way I can see Sam sticking around would be in the increasingly unlikely (yet not impossible) event of our survival. I just don't see him wanting the hassle of the Championship when there's a contractual opt out.
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The only way I can see Sam sticking around would be in the increasingly unlikely (yet not impossible) event of our survival. I just don't see him wanting the hassle of the Championship when there's a contractual opt out.
I'm the opposite. I think the Championship will be very enticing for him.
We will have cash
We will have a strong squad, possibly the strongest
We will be amongst the favourites
It's not a difficult job managing us in the Champ
Compare this to his only other likely option, which is to, yet again, be fire-fighting at the bottom end of the Prem.
Yes he will have a relegation on his CV, but, we give him a chance of instant redemption and success. I fully expect him to stay.
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I'm the opposite. I think the Championship will be very enticing for him.
We will have cash
We will have a strong squad, possibly the strongest
We will be amongst the favourites
It's not a difficult job managing us in the Champ
Compare this to his only other likely option, which is to, yet again, be fire-fighting at the bottom end of the Prem.
Yes he will have a relegation on his CV, but, we give him a chance of instant redemption and success. I fully expect him to stay.
Please delete this post, please, pretty please nicely !
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Please delete this post, please, pretty please nicely !
I never said it was what I wanted :'(
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If we could not get any better I would keep him.
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So what do people think?. Is he going to stay or take advantage of the rumoured break clause?
I was for him staying a few weeks ago but the lack of fight and questionable subs in the last couple of games have changed my mind. I think he looks tired and out of ideas.
I think if the board changed their minds over such a short period they would get torn apart on here .
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Would we be happy with the Sam Allardyce style? What is his style? Would it be what we are seeing now, would he be more expansive?
I don't want him in charge, I didn't want him in charge, I've nothing against him, apart from the owners panic I don't see what we've achieved overall with his appointment!
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Would we be happy with the Sam Allardyce style? What is his style? Would it be what we are seeing now, would he be more expansive?
I don't want him in charge, I didn't want him in charge, I've nothing against him, apart from the owners panic I don't see what we've achieved overall with his appointment!
He's not my ideal candidate for next season but I think we could do a lot worse if we look elsewhere, hence stick with him, if he wants the job and is actually committed to the cause.
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Would we be happy with the Sam Allardyce style? What is his style? Would it be what we are seeing now, would he be more expansive?
I don't want him in charge, I didn't want him in charge, I've nothing against him, apart from the owners panic I don't see what we've achieved overall with his appointment!
Apart from being stuffed 5-0 every week by shoring up the defence. And putting a monster up front to take the heat off (although goals still issue) No he ain't done much!
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Apart from being stuffed 5-0 every week by shoring up the defence. And putting a monster up front to take the heat off (although goals still issue) No he ain't done much!
I do not have the most accurate memory, but I do not believe the regular stuffings started until he graced us with his presence. He reduced them eventually by giving up pretty much any attacking flair and was able to introduce ON LOAN a one man miracle worker in Yokuslu. None of his other LOAN signings have done a lot better than what we already had, and one of those signings is being allowed to play where he wants and not where we need him play, to the detriment of one of OUR best players. Nice one sam -play it again - Somewhere-kin-else.
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Apart from being stuffed 5-0 every week by shoring up the defence. And putting a monster up front to take the heat off (although goals still issue) No he ain't done much!
We weren't being stuffed 5-0 every week though were we until he arrived -, the last poster is correct, he has eventually shored things up but at a cost and offered not a lot in an attacking in games we needed to win! As I said, nothing against him but he's not for me!
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I do not have the most accurate memory, but I do not believe the regular stuffings started until he graced us with his presence. He reduced them eventually by giving up pretty much any attacking flair and was able to introduce ON LOAN a one man miracle worker in Yokuslu. None of his other LOAN signings have done a lot better than what we already had, and one of those signings is being allowed to play where he wants and not where we need him play, to the detriment of one of OUR best players. Nice one sam -play it again - Somewhere-kin-else.
Thank you for posting this. We weren’t getting stuffed every week until he showed up bar the Crystal Palace game where we had established control until MP got sent off. His first 10 games we shipped 2.8 per game. Now we are better on the back of loanee Yokuslu - the rest of his signings are simply not doing it. Snodgrass is a quality championship player who will be good next season, AMN is a vanity project keeping the players we actually own out of the team so he can try to reestablish England credentials, and Diagne is Brown Ideye in disguise. We are an injury or suspension to Yokuslu away from another round of spankings.
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Thank you for posting this. We weren’t getting stuffed every week until he showed up bar the Crystal Palace game where we had established control until MP got sent off. His first 10 games we shipped 2.8 per game. Now we are better on the back of loanee Yokuslu - the rest of his signings are simply not doing it. Snodgrass is a quality championship player who will be good next season, AMN is a vanity project keeping the players we actually own out of the team so he can try to reestablish England credentials, and Diagne is Brown Ideye in disguise. We are an injury or suspension to Yokuslu away from another round of spankings.
Sadly I must agree with this post. A very expensive short term thinking based project that will end in failure.
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Thank you for posting this. We weren’t getting stuffed every week until he showed up bar the Crystal Palace game where we had established control until MP got sent off. His first 10 games we shipped 2.8 per game. Now we are better on the back of loanee Yokuslu - the rest of his signings are simply not doing it. Snodgrass is a quality championship player who will be good next season, AMN is a vanity project keeping the players we actually own out of the team so he can try to reestablish England credentials, and Diagne is Brown Ideye in disguise. We are an injury or suspension to Yokuslu away from another round of spankings.
indeed and under Bilic we showed fight and created chances albeit to no avail I still think Bilic could have had us fighting we would have used Man City as a Spring Board to get decent results
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indeed and under Bilic we showed fight and created chances albeit to no avail I still think Bilic could have had us fighting we would have used Man City as a Spring Board to get decent results
Bilic away at Barnsley was enough for me to suggest otherwise
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Does anybody know how the break clause works end of the season? Is it in, his favour? Our favour? I really hope hes gone soon.
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Does anybody know how the break clause works end of the season? Is it in, his favour? Our favour? I really hope hes gone soon.
From what was reported either side can bring it into play upon relegation. We can choose to let him go and he can choose to leave
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Fingers crossed he will not be darkening the doors of battered chips serving estalbishments next season ;D
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Bilic away at Barnsley was enough for me to suggest otherwise
Will call your Bilic at Barnsley, and raise you every match under Allardyce, except the victory at Wolves. Allardyce has been utter dog droppings here. Team spirit morale etc=Zero. Entertainment=zero, creativity, goal threat=zero. Defending=marginal improvement thanks to on-loan mid fielder, Even though our keeper has finally for a few times looked a bit like a proper goalkeeper, the only thing that went up was the goals against column. Enjoyment of watching, pride in our club, our players development, chances of winning games all=absolute zero. The only thing Allardyce has created here is schism and despondency the sooner he is gone the better, but an even bigger worry is what we replace him with. We will have nothing positive nor anything like a future until the present ownership and those senior staff who even dreamed Allardyce could or would even try to do a job for us are history.
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Will call your Bilic at Barnsley, and raise you every match under Allardyce, except the victory at Wolves. Allardyce has been utter dog droppings here. Team spirit morale etc=Zero. Entertainment=zero, creativity, goal threat=zero. Defending=marginal improvement thanks to on-loan mid fielder, Even though our keeper has finally for a few times looked a bit like a proper goalkeeper, the only thing that went up was the goals against column. Enjoyment of watching, pride in our club, our players development, chances of winning games all=absolute zero. The only thing Allardyce has created here is schism and despondency the sooner he is gone the better, but an even bigger worry is what we replace him with. We will have nothing positive nor anything like a future until the present ownership and those senior staff who even dreamed Allardyce could or would even try to do a job for us are history.
Think you've summed up my feelings exactly there.
Bilic might have had limitations, but his enthusiasm was absolutely infectious, Allardyce is just dour.
As things stand, I don't think I'll be setting foot in the Hawthorns again until August.
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Think you've summed up my feelings exactly there.
Bilic might have had limitations, but his enthusiasm was absolutely infectious, Allardyce is just dour.
As things stand, I don't think I'll be setting foot in the Hawthorns again until August.
At the moment I don't think I will go back at all
1) No enjoyment
2) You just get out of the habit
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From what was reported either side can bring it into play upon relegation. We can choose to let him go and he can choose to leave
I still think the club will have to make the decision. I assume that if he makes it he will be worse off than if the club press the button.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Bilic showed Passion, He had heart he was given a task to get the Baggies promoted in two seasons he did it in 1 he wasn't backed and sacked in an unfair way in a game which could have given us confidence to go on a run. Bilic united the fans and for the first time since Big Dave we had a Club to proud of yes ultimately Results were fading and Bilic had started to become Unsettled possibly due to our board. Whilst Allardyce on paper seems to be doing better than Bilic at some things, the football is turgid, he doesn't look intrested for someone who said managing us would be his dream Job he is showing no heart or evidence of this. We can't score our fans are once again split and we aren't happy with our club again. Some of this is not Allardyce's fault but our grosly miscomptent board but you'd think he would show efforts of heart and passion, to prove to our fans who hate him he wants us to stay up. Sadly whilst he is charge these feelings of anger and bias to him will continue.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Agree with this
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Are there any facts that show us being miles better under Allardyce?
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Are there any facts that show us being miles better under Allardyce?
Let me take a stab at this....
1. we have more wins.
2. we are playing better now than under Bilic based on points return.
3. we finally attracted a defensive midfielder that is talented and has been needed for 2 years.
4. SA managed to improve the quality of the team with almost no money instead of wasting millions on an extremely average Mr Grant.
5. Quality of performances have improved ( see #3 and #4)
We re still going down but at least there's some fighting spirit in the team now.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Got it in one BP......
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Thanks for posting this, I was starting to feel like a tiny minority.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Show me the facts, we just aren't miles better, the only difference is Okay Yukuslu, who has put himself in the shop window for a nice EPL contract next season.
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Another Allardyce knocking fest I see!
This team is clearly better than the one assembled under Bilic. It plays better football.
We look more organised.
We have more wins.
I haven’t enjoyed the football under Bilic since Jan last year. It was abject under Bilic this season also.
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Another Allardyce knocking fest I see!
This team is clearly better than the one assembled under Bilic. It plays better football.
We look more organised.
We have more wins.
I haven’t enjoyed the football under Bilic since Jan last year. It was abject under Bilic this season also.
Agree 100%. Bilic’s signings were poor, his team was a defensive shambles, and he’d turned in poor results for almost a whole year.
There was zero evidence he was about to turn things around. Zero.
And this fabled attractive football is a myth because Bilic is a personable bloke. Most of it had been rotten for a very long time.
We all liked Bilic but let’s not rewrite history. His team was useless.
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We all liked Bilic but let’s not rewrite history. His team was useless.
Couple of things, without trying to break forum rules......
1 - There's enthusiastic chatter about employing someone whose team is even more useless.
2 - Scoring, but not conceding goals win football matches. Allardyce's squad was in place from Feb 1st this year.
In that time, we've scored 3 & conceded 7 goals. Not scored in the last 3 games
won 1, drawn 3, lost 4.
Perhaps I'm being picky, but that don't look too impressive for me
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Couple of things, without trying to break forum rules......
1 - There's enthusiastic chatter about employing someone whose team is even more useless.
2 - Scoring, but not conceding goals win football matches. Allardyce's squad was in place from Feb 1st this year.
In that time, we've scored 3 & conceded 7 goals. Not scored in the last 3 games
won 1, drawn 3, lost 4.
Perhaps I'm being picky, but that don't look too impressive for me
I don't think that there is a manager available that would have been able to achieve the results to impress you John. I know we have discussed this over and over but Allardyce inherited a very poor team from his predecessor. With serious investment perhaps Bilic would have made a better fist of it, but the evidence now suggests that he would have probably wasted the money [Grady and Grant come to mind].
Sam has had absolutely no funds available but at least he has made us more solid, and whilst I agree that Yokuslu is a superb player, there are 10 more on the pitch who are also contributing.
Someone may or may not have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. , but you get the idea. ;D Many on here would like to see BS sacked and a new appointment, but if nothing else changes then the theory comes into play.
Its not ideal but it is where we are. Sam is the least of our worries to be honest. Until other constants change we are stuck with it, nosediving into the Championship with a completely inept owner way out of his depth and looking to get his money back, which is highly unlikely to happen. Until this changes then we can have as many managers as we want because the results are likely to be the same.
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Allardyce's biggest mistake was thinking he could jump start the squad he came into or at least thinking he could limp to the January window . That run of games from Fulham to Newcastle was vital and had we taken some glorious chances we'd be right in the mix now .
I don't like Allardyce the person one bit but he actually sorted a midfield problem we knew we had half way through last season but sadly not the goal scoring issue . To go into a Premier League season and only add Krov who couldn't hold a place down the previous season and Gallagher is criminal , Bilic and Dowling have a lot to answer for during the Summer window .
One lost his job , I'm hoping the other goes soon too .
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I don't think that there is a manager available that would have been able to achieve the results to impress you John. I know we have discussed this over and over but Allardyce inherited a very poor team from his predecessor. With serious investment perhaps Bilic would have made a better fist of it, but the evidence now suggests that he would have probably wasted the money [Grady and Grant come to mind].
Sam has had absolutely no funds available but at least he has made us more solid, and whilst I agree that Yokuslu is a superb player, there are 10 more on the pitch who are also contributing.
Einstien one said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Many on here would like to see BS sacked and a new appointment, but if nothing else changes then Einsteins theory comes into play.
Its not ideal but it is where we are. Sam is the least of our worries to be honest. Until other constants change we are stuck with it, nosediving into the Championship with a completely inept owner way out of his depth and looking to get his money back, which is highly unlikely to happen. Until this changes then we can have as many managers as we want because the results are likely to be the same.
Agree 100% that the options are limited under the current owners.
Some contributors to this topic are stating as fact that Allardyce is performing better than Bilic. The facts don't bear that out, so the argument becomes subjective & a matter of opinion.
Personally, I want WBA to win football matches, & I'm not too bothered how we do that, so style of play etc is not part of my equation.
As far as the Allardyce/Bilic argument is concerned, Bilic was enthusiastic & engaging, Allardyce is dour, so he doesn't work for me.
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Can we stick to discussing Sam Allardyce rather than what Albert Einstein may or may not have said.
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Billic had 13 prem games before getting replaced.
Under Allardyce we've got 3 more points after his first 13 games.
We have conceded more and scored less under Sam's first 13 games.
I wouldn't be drinking champagne on those stats.
And we got knocked out of the F A cup by league one Blackpool.
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Billic had 13 prem games before getting replaced.
Under Allardyce we've got 3 more points after his first 13 games.
We have conceded more and scored less under Sam's first 13 games.
I wouldn't be drinking champagne on those stats.
And we got knocked out of the F A cup by league one Blackpool.
Just to add context we got knocked out the Efl cup by Brentford second string .
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I think the big question now is what next. Bilic is gone - it’s history. It’s over. And I wouldn’t want him back under any circumstances if he were available for next season.
The club and/or Allardyce have a big call to make. They may already have done so behind the scenes, given they know we are going down.
So for us the debate is surely what happens from here. Are we better off sticking with Allardyce? Would he want to stay anyway?
I’m very concerned that we’re going down in the worst shape since 1986 with a team that could easily slip into the morass of the Championship - or worse.
If we don’t make the right call now, it could be a very long road back and the days of West Bromwich Albion in the Premier League could seem like a distant dream. We may have grown complacent with our successes in bouncing back within a year or at most two in the past 20 years, but there are no guarantees that will continue.
I’d personally want to see a better candidate than Allardyce on an objective rather than emotional (“I don’t like himâ€) level before changing things again. But that is surely the biggest decision now that the club actually has under its control.
And that is surely where the debate lies.
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I think the big question now is what next. Bilic is gone - it’s history. It’s over. And I wouldn’t want him back under any circumstances if he were available for next season.
The club and/or Allardyce have a big call to make. They may already have done so behind the scenes, given they know we are going down.
So for us the debate is surely what happens from here. Are we better off sticking with Allardyce? Would he want to stay anyway?
I’m very concerned that we’re going down in the worst shape since 1986 with a team that could easily slip into the morass of the Championship - or worse.
If we don’t make the right call now, it could be a very long road back and the days of West Bromwich Albion in the Premier League could seem like a distant dream. We may have grown complacent with our successes in bouncing back within a year or at most two in the past 20 years, but there are no guarantees that will continue.
I’d personally want to see a better candidate than Allardyce on an objective rather than emotional (“I don’t like himâ€) level before changing things again. But that is surely the biggest decision now that the club actually has under its control.
And that is surely where the debate lies.
This squad is better than the teams megson and robson took down. Easily
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This squad is better than the teams megson and robson took down. Easily
I honestly don’t agree. The results don’t really support that argument either.
But of course it’s a matter of opinion.
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This isn't the worst squad ability wise although it is down there for sure. It's easily the worst squad in terms of balance though. We have to rebuild the 2019 rebuild in less than 2 years.
One of the culprits is deservedly gone but i'm wondering why the other ones still here.
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This squad is better than the teams megson and robson took down. Easily
No it isnt.
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I think the big question now is what next. Bilic is gone - it’s history. It’s over. And I wouldn’t want him back under any circumstances if he were available for next season.
The club and/or Allardyce have a big call to make. They may already have done so behind the scenes, given they know we are going down.
So for us the debate is surely what happens from here. Are we better off sticking with Allardyce? Would he want to stay anyway?
I’m very concerned that we’re going down in the worst shape since 1986 with a team that could easily slip into the morass of the Championship - or worse.
If we don’t make the right call now, it could be a very long road back and the days of West Bromwich Albion in the Premier League could seem like a distant dream. We may have grown complacent with our successes in bouncing back within a year or at most two in the past 20 years, but there are no guarantees that will continue.
I’d personally want to see a better candidate than Allardyce on an objective rather than emotional (“I don’t like himâ€) level before changing things again. But that is surely the biggest decision now that the club actually has under its control.
And that is surely where the debate lies.
Is there a case for sticking with Allardyce? I'm not sure there is. The "facts" don't show a significant improvement on Bilic's performance, unless of course you're crediting SA with a success when our opponents missed two penalties.
The problem, as I see it, is the football ambitions don't match our financial position.
If we retain SA, it's likely he'll want to replicate something similar to the set-up he has now.
That means firming up or replacing our four loanees, with a sum of money required for transfer fees.
Flex downs mean that wages shouldn't be too problematic.
He isn't using our two players with the highest tangible asset value in Diangana & Grant. These players sit on our books at around £25 to £30 million. It's unlikely that we'd get that sum if we sold them.
With no fans in the ground since March last year, it's likely that we've took a hit of around £10 million on gate receipts.
As others have pointed out, there will also be a shortfall in broadcasting revenue.
It's being suggested that top teams are unlikely to sign back-up keepers, so profits on the sale of SJ are unlikely to be as good as predicted, also MP hasn't exactly torn up any trees.
So, on an objective basis, I would suggest that the best interests of the football club would be served by appointing a coach who can, initially at least, work with what we've got.
SA has consistently told what we've got that they ain't good enough.
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I think the big question now is what next. Bilic is gone - it’s history. It’s over. And I wouldn’t want him back under any circumstances if he were available for next season.
The club and/or Allardyce have a big call to make. They may already have done so behind the scenes, given they know we are going down.
So for us the debate is surely what happens from here. Are we better off sticking with Allardyce? Would he want to stay anyway?
I’m very concerned that we’re going down in the worst shape since 1986 with a team that could easily slip into the morass of the Championship - or worse.
If we don’t make the right call now, it could be a very long road back and the days of West Bromwich Albion in the Premier League could seem like a distant dream. We may have grown complacent with our successes in bouncing back within a year or at most two in the past 20 years, but there are no guarantees that will continue.
I’d personally want to see a better candidate than Allardyce on an objective rather than emotional (“I don’t like himâ€) level before changing things again. But that is surely the biggest decision now that the club actually has under its control.
And that is surely where the debate lies.
Actually I think we are in good shape for the championship. For me the key is what our ambition is when we drop. If it is to return to the top division then we should see some of the core squad retained, and others brought in to strengthen the team. However, if we start to have a fire sale, then unfortunately I fear many years of mid championship mediocrity ahead.
You will know soon enough when we find out if Sam is there for next year. If not, then........
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I think there are folk glued to their rigid positions on both side of the debate.
Debating who has been better has been like choosing as to whether you prefer a cough or a cold.
The Allardyce tenure has only improved with the addition of Yokuslu and Diange - quite frankly, it could not have got any lower and therefore any improvement only had to be marginal.
His biggest mistake was thinking he could swan into the football club with proven tried methods and just merely organise this squad until the transfer window. I think it at that point dawned on him that asking a side incapable of defending to defend was sheer madness.
His other rescue jobs included some fine tuning but they pretty much had squads which he could work with - he did not have that luxary here given the severe lack of quality in midfield which exposed a fragile defence.
It has improved defensively over the last month or so - of that there is no denying - but we're horribly short of goals.
Some folk may jump for the rafters at the improvement, but I'm a bit meh about it all.
Both head coaches have played their part in this sinking ship this season and the argument of who was better than the other is neither here nor there really.
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I'm staggered by some of these comments, we are miles better now than with Bilic, I can't help but think there is a pre conceived bias against Allerdyce that is blinding people to the facts.
Sorry Black Pearl but I really have to argue a case for just the opposite. My Personal belief is that our results are really not any better under Allardyce, and others have posted figures that seem to support this. I also very much agree with what Baggieboy04 posted recently regarding Bilic's tenure.
The style of play and whether the team is actually playing better, is I think a subjective issue, and as such everyone will have their own valid opinions.
I never was and still am not a fan of Allardyce, but I am a fan of West Bromwich Albion, and would happily have backed Allardyce as our man had I had seen any real improvements in the team or it's prospects for the future. I am certain that most of the other supporters who originally did not want Allardyce, would also have been of similar mind.
The only improvement I have seen is the addition of Yokuslu, and that unfortunately is only temporary, and anyway may or may not have been purely an Allardyce driven signing.
It seems to me that the ones 'blind' to the facts are those who's dislike of Slaven Bilic, his team selection, and/or his loyalty to players who actually helped us get promoted, are the ones who expressed the most dissatisfaction during he previous season and have posted most spitefully against anything Bilic did, and most vehemently in favour of the present incumbent despite his obvious failings.
Allardyce has neither moved the team nor the club forward one iota since his appointment. He has not improved or even used many of our contracted players, except to their detriment by playing them in unfamiliar roles.
However, I think Liam has hit the nail on the head.
'Both head coaches have played their part in this sinking ship this season and the argument of who was better than the other is neither here nor there really"
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Sorry Black Pearl but I really have to argue a case for just the opposite. My Personal belief is that our results are really not any better under Allardyce, and others have posted figures that seem to support this. I also very much agree with what Baggieboy04 posted recently regarding Bilic's tenure.
The style of play and whether the team is actually playing better, is I think a subjective issue, and as such everyone will have their own valid opinions.
I never was and still am not a fan of Allardyce, but I am a fan of West Bromwich Albion, and would happily have backed Allardyce as our man had I had seen any real improvements in the team or it's prospects for the future. I am certain that most of the other supporters who originally did not want Allardyce, would also have been of similar mind.
The only improvement I have seen is the addition of Yokuslu, and that unfortunately is only temporary, and anyway may or may not have been purely an Allardyce driven signing.
It seems to me that the ones 'blind' to the facts are those who's dislike of Slaven Bilic, his team selection, and/or his loyalty to players who actually helped us get promoted, are the ones who expressed the most dissatisfaction during he previous season and have posted most spitefully against anything Bilic did, and most vehemently in favour of the present incumbent despite his obvious failings.
Allardyce has neither moved the team nor the club forward one iota since his appointment. He has not improved or even used many of our contracted players, except to their detriment by playing them in unfamiliar roles.
However, I think Liam has hit the nail on the head.
'Both head coaches have played their part in this sinking ship this season and the argument of who was better than the other is neither here nor there really"
Exactly so. It’s a matter of stick with Allardyce or twist with another coach.
That’s all that’s really worth discussing now.
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Actually I think we are in good shape for the championship. For me the key is what our ambition is when we drop. If it is to return to the top division then we should see some of the core squad retained, and others brought in to strengthen the team. However, if we start to have a fire sale, then unfortunately I fear many years of mid championship mediocrity ahead.
You will know soon enough when we find out if Sam is there for next year. If not, then........
I hope you’re right about us being “in good shape.†I’m just struggling to see any evidence at all to support that view, even with my blue-and-white tinted specs on. We’ve won three games all season, and didn’t win that many in the Championship after Christmas either.
The record is remarkably similar to our 4 wins season in 1985-6. I always have hope, but the hard facts tend not to lie. I really fear we could be in quite a bit more trouble than some seem to think.
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I hope you’re right about us being “in good shape.†I’m just struggling to see any evidence at all to support that view, even with my blue-and-white tinted specs on. We’ve won three games all season, and didn’t win that many in the Championship after Christmas either.
The record is remarkably similar to our 4 wins season in 1985-6. I always have hope, but the hard facts tend not to lie. I really fear we could be in quite a bit more trouble than some seem to think.
We have some good championship players in our team, and therein lies the problem, but I am quite chipper about next year with our present team [and a few additions of course].
We are stinking the place out in the Premiership so personally I cannot wait for this season to be over - a complete embarrassment.
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I think any championship side with an attacking force of Grant, Diangana, Robinson will be capable enough.
I also think the defence with O'shea, Ajayi, Bartley, Townsend is perfectly capable at that level especially after a season learning in the prem.
Midfield is a concern for me, deployed properly sawyers has and can once again cut it, Periera is too good for the chumps if here, but we will need "legs".
We have some almost good enough younger players around like Edwardes and Harper, will Sam Feild come back seems unlikely.
We will need possibly a keeper, a utility defender, a sheilding midfielder, a midfielder with legs and energy and we will be very competitive IMO.
thats not accounting for Jake, HRK and Matt Phillips of course :-\
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We have the core of a good Championship squad if we have a manager capable of motivating them and playing a style of football to which they are suited. The present incumbent seems unable to do either so our future is almost entirely dependent on one decision.
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I do like him overall, but don't know if he'll stay and he's certainly not perfect.
Right now I am confused as to why he insists on throwing Kanu on and has frozen Robinson out. Earlier in the season, Robinson was actually one of our better players. He's also much younger and technically more talented than Kanu too, so I just don't get that.
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We have some almost good enough younger players around like Edwardes and Harper, will Sam Feild come back seems unlikely.
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I really hope Sam Field stays at QPR where Warburton regards him. This club has ****** him around enough. Time for him to release his dream and build a career.
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I have a quick look on here most days to see if he's walked yet, a thumping at the weekend and I think he might
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I have a quick look on here most days to see if he's walked yet, a thumping at the weekend and I think he might
Think if the club decide to activate the exit clause at the end of the season, he will still get some sort of pay off + the rest of this season's wages. I wouldn't think he would walk away from that.
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Will call your Bilic at Barnsley, and raise you every match under Allardyce, except the victory at Wolves. Allardyce has been utter dog droppings here. Team spirit morale etc=Zero. Entertainment=zero, creativity, goal threat=zero. Defending=marginal improvement thanks to on-loan mid fielder, Even though our keeper has finally for a few times looked a bit like a proper goalkeeper, the only thing that went up was the goals against column. Enjoyment of watching, pride in our club, our players development, chances of winning games all=absolute zero. The only thing Allardyce has created here is schism and despondency the sooner he is gone the better, but an even bigger worry is what we replace him with. We will have nothing positive nor anything like a future until the present ownership and those senior staff who even dreamed Allardyce could or would even try to do a job for us are history.
Not sure how you heard that I prefer allardyce ? (I don’t), I’m purely saying bilic had to go.
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I have a quick look on here most days to see if he's walked yet......
Can't help but feel you're being a little picky, I'd settle for anything interesting to read ;) .
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Not sure how you heard that I prefer allardyce ? (I don’t), I’m purely saying bilic had to go.
I apologise if I insulted your perspicacity by inferring you might have preferred Allardyce. I tend not to check back on others posts so I had no idea of your preferences at the time. :-[, I merely sought to reiterate how poor I believed the appointment of Allardyce was, and has proved to be.
On results and form at the time I don't think anybody could seriously argue against you Zippy, that it was time for Bilic to leave, and I really bought in to what I felt Bilic wanted to do. (Maybe the addition of a Yokuslu and a Diagne at that time might have made enough of a difference?) It was the short term, lack of commitment nature of the appointment of Allardyce, not the sacking of Bilic that I was, and still am a tad disconcerted about. It felt like sticking a band aid on a severed artery, but has proved to be a little less effective.
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I apologise if I insulted your perspicacity by inferring you might have preferred Allardyce. I tend not to check back on others posts so I had no idea of your preferences at the time. :-[, I merely sought to reiterate how poor I believed the appointment of Allardyce was, and has proved to be.
On results and form at the time I don't think anybody could seriously argue against you Zippy, that it was time for Bilic to leave, and I really bought in to what I felt Bilic wanted to do. (Maybe the addition of a Yokuslu and a Diagne at that time might have made enough of a difference?) It was the short term, lack of commitment nature of the appointment of Allardyce, not the sacking of Bilic that I was, and still am a tad disconcerted about. It felt like sticking a band aid on a severed artery, but has proved to be a little less effective.
Let's turn this on it's head.
If you are in the "Bilic had to go camp" then that left 2 options:
a) Bring in a new bloke with a long term view
b) Bring in a fire fighter, on a short term contract, to have one last throw of the dice at staying up.
If we'd gone a) we would almost certainly have gone down anyway, so the new bloke's first 6 months would have been disastrous, hardly the platform for a long term plan. And, as much as a lot of our fans claim to hate our short termism, there would have ben an awful lot who would have turned on the new guy, if we were getting leathered every week. Again, hardly a solid base for a long term project.
So, we went with b) and, whilst we threw a 1 instead of a 6, and the inevitable relegation couldn't be avoided, there's no real long term damage.
Therefore, if we part with Sam at the end of the season, the new bloke can come in with a clean slate, a healthy budget, a decent squad for the division, hopefully a positive fanbase and a great foundation on which to build his tenure.
I don't see what we've got terribly wrong.
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The long term damage is time. If Allardyce walks or is let go at seasons end we then have to appoint somebody , who has to appraise the squad, then recognise targets , then sign targets ! If we had started down this route when Bilic was sacked we could possibly have hit the ground running. With the way we operate I think that is extremely unlikely to happen
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The long term damage is time. If Allardyce walks or is let go at seasons end we then have to appoint somebody , who has to appraise the squad, then recognise targets , then sign targets ! If we had started down this route when Bilic was sacked we could possibly have hit the ground running. With the way we operate I think that is extremely unlikely to happen
What if the new bloke had lost 10, 12, 15 in a row though? What if he'd made signings in Jan that flopped? The long term damage could have been a lot worse.
As I said above, the Sam experiment didn't work, but at least we start the summer with a clean slate.
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What if the new bloke had lost 10, 12, 15 in a row though? What if he'd made signings in Jan that flopped? The long term damage could have been a lot worse.
As I said above, the Sam experiment didn't work, but at least we start the summer with a clean slate.
Well this is a rare break out of common sense on here... and we've probably rolled a 4 rather than a 1. The guy is still a very good manager.
We'll beat Chelsea on Saturday by the way ;)
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Well this is a rare break out of common sense on here... and we've probably rolled a 4 rather than a 1. The guy is still a very good manager.
We'll beat Chelsea on Saturday by the way ;)
[/b]
Obviously very sunny where you are Jacko😂
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Sams not created any long term damage. He's not spunked 10's of millions up the wall or handed out 5/6 year deals. He's pointed out whats obviously wrong in the club positionally. He's spent around £2m quid to do so and we are improved at least in the sense the players have got some self respect back for next season in the EFL.
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Well this is a rare break out of common sense on here... and we've probably rolled a 4 rather than a 1. The guy is still a very good manager.
We'll beat Chelsea on Saturday by the way ;)
Common sense gone out the window, I just backed us to win!
You owe me a fiver Jacko!
😂
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The quality of the summer signings for a Premier season were our undoing . That together with Slav’s insistence on continuing with Sawyers and Livermore. Big Sam spent very little in January and has at least addressed some of our previous deficiencies. Unless we get rid of a good number of our current permanent signings this summer , then I fear our manager whoever it is next season, will be facing an uphill task .
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I'll just remind everyone Bilic wanted to sign Orsic who's brilliant hat-trick dumped Spurs out of the Europa.
The board wouldn't back him with adequate funds last Summer to keep us up. Therefore, it didn't really matter who was Manager as the net result would've been relegation.
The signings 2 months ago were club signings from pre identified targets, not from Allardyce himself, so had Bilic still been in place then we'd have had an upturn in results ander Slaven.
Also we'd not have had Diangana and Robinson frozen out for no good reason.
2.things about Allardyce:
1) his first few games were disastrous, you'd expect someone with his experience to have done better.
2) the perfect games was Wolves away, yet he has veered away by playing this team, Robinson effectively won us that game.
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I'll just remind everyone Bilic wanted to sign Orsic who's brilliant hat-trick dumped Spurs out of the Europa.
The board wouldn't back him with adequate funds last Summer to keep us up. Therefore, it didn't really matter who was Manager as the net result would've been relegation.
The signings 2 months ago were club signings from pre identified targets, not from Allardyce himself, so had Bilic still been in place then we'd have had an upturn in results ander Slaven.
Also we'd not have had Diangana and Robinson frozen out for no good reason.
2.things about Allardyce:
1) his first few games were disastrous, you'd expect someone with his experience to have done better.
2) the perfect games was Wolves away, yet he has veered away by playing this team, Robinson effectively won us that game.
I agree with most of that. Not sure that all the January signings would have happened though under Bilic as the board wasn’t going to back him further with signings after his insistence on holding out to buy Grant at that fee.
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I'd like to remind everyone that Orsic was the same type of player as Robinson and Grant, would play in the same space as Pereira or Diangana was not the type of Centre Forward you need in a 4-2-3-1. Although that is pretty much the only set up that accommodates both Pereira and Diangana yet it pretty much consigns Grant and Robinson to the sidelines not to mention Grosicki and logically the best tactical fit on the right side of it is God help us Phillips.
Much as I utterly despise Allardyce and would never have appointed him I can't put Bilic on a pedestal. The budget might have been inadequate but it could and should have been better deployed and that was largely down to Bilic.
Robinson and Diangana have largely been frozen out because they don't fit Allardyce's tactics which allows for one creative totem in an otherwise dull as ditch water line up and that is Pereira, sorry that's the law.
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I'll just remind everyone Bilic wanted to sign Orsic who's brilliant hat-trick dumped Spurs out of the Europa.
The board wouldn't back him with adequate funds last Summer to keep us up. Therefore, it didn't really matter who was Manager as the net result would've been relegation.
The signings 2 months ago were club signings from pre identified targets, not from Allardyce himself, so had Bilic still been in place then we'd have had an upturn in results ander Slaven.
Also we'd not have had Diangana and Robinson frozen out for no good reason.
2.things about Allardyce:
1) his first few games were disastrous, you'd expect someone with his experience to have done better.
2) the perfect games was Wolves away, yet he has veered away by playing this team, Robinson effectively won us that game.
If the best endorsement you can give Bilic is the one player he didn't sign, that says it all really.
I agree the funds were inadequate, but they were in line with what was promised and he definitely sanctioned Grant, Krovinovic and Ivanovic, who failed, and there's no evidence to suggest he ever tried to get a DM so, if Yokuslu was a "pre-identified club target" then do we assume that Bilic knocked him back in the summer?
Either way if Dowling is now finding players like Yokuslu and Diange then the future is bright surely?
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2) the perfect games was Wolves away, yet he has veered away by playing this team, Robinson effectively won us that game.
I would dispute the fact that it was a perfect game , perfect result yes but we still managed to concede 2 goals to a team that at the time couldnt score and was still coming to terms with losing Jimenez. Chuck in the fact that we had a couple of decisions go our way and it was arguably up there with the Brighton game as two of very few where Lady Luck ditched the frown and actually smiled on us
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I'll just remind everyone Bilic wanted to sign Orsic who's brilliant hat-trick dumped Spurs out of the Europa.
The board wouldn't back him with adequate funds last Summer to keep us up. Therefore, it didn't really matter who was Manager as the net result would've been relegation.
The signings 2 months ago were club signings from pre identified targets, not from Allardyce himself, so had Bilic still been in place then we'd have had an upturn in results ander Slaven.
Also we'd not have had Diangana and Robinson frozen out for no good reason.
2.things about Allardyce:
1) his first few games were disastrous, you'd expect someone with his experience to have done better.
2) the perfect games was Wolves away, yet he has veered away by playing this team, Robinson effectively won us that game.
Orsic was the Championship January window in which we initially loaned Robinson. It had nothing to do with last summer.
You're literally one of only a handful of people who doesn't accept the January signings were driven by Allardyce and agents.
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Pereira £8.25m signed by Bilic so it works both ways.
I guess it's not Allardyce's idea to play Phillips and Robson Kanu or the last 6 games or so. It must be Sammy Lee or Deon Burton. Or the terrible mind numbing playing style.
If you saw Brunts interview, he basically attracted McAuley and Evans so Hodgson and Pulis can't take credit for those signings either.
Most Albion's fans expectations of staying in the Premier League don't correlate with club budgets, it's that simple.
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Pereira £8.25m signed by Bilic so it works both ways.
I guess it's not Allardyce's idea to play Phillips and Robson Kanu or the last 6 games or so. It must be Sammy Lee or Deon Burton. Or the terrible mind numbing playing style.
If you saw Brunts interview, he basically attracted McAuley and Evans so Hodgson and Pulis can't take credit for those signings either.
Most Albion's fans expectations of staying in the Premier League don't correlate with club budgets, it's that simple.
Mind numbing playing style?
Its been better than anything Bilic dished up this season.
Phillips has also been playing well, probably training well too.....
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Pereira £8.25m signed by Bilic so it works both ways.
I guess it's not Allardyce's idea to play Phillips and Robson Kanu or the last 6 games or so. It must be Sammy Lee or Deon Burton. Or the terrible mind numbing playing style.
If you saw Brunts interview, he basically attracted McAuley and Evans so Hodgson and Pulis can't take credit for those signings either.
Most Albion's fans expectations of staying in the Premier League don't correlate with club budgets, it's that simple.
And it seems to me that its pre-identified targets when Allardyce signs them and yet its Bilic's signings when he was in charge.
Some strange arguments here
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Orsic was the Championship January window in which we initially loaned Robinson. It had nothing to do with last summer.
You're literally one of only a handful of people who doesn't accept the January signings were driven by Allardyce and agents.
It shows that the combination of Bilic, Dowling and Allardyce have failed when it comes to signings with Okay being the exception.
For Allardyce we also got Snodgrass who has been a minimal improvement on the others, Diagne who could come good long term but won't be here for us to find out and Maitland-Niles who came as we were the only club to give in to his demands to play centrally and has proven that the other clubs were right not to give in to him.
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It shows that the combination of Bilic, Dowling and Allardyce have failed when it comes to signings with Okay being the exception.
For Allardyce we also got Snodgrass who has been a minimal improvement on the others, Diagne who could come good long term but won't be here for us to find out and Maitland-Niles who came as we were the only club to give in to his demands to play centrally and has proven that the other clubs were right not to give in to him.
All of those have contributed to our improved defence though. Maybe Snodgrass to a lesser extent but the other two have definitely had a positive impact on our ability to get, and keep, the ball further up the pitch.
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All of those have contributed to our improved defence though. Maybe Snodgrass to a lesser extent but the other two have definitely had a positive impact on our ability to get, and keep, the ball further up the pitch.
The improved defence is down to Okay. Lets see when/if he gets suspended or injured how the others help us defensively.
This keeping the ball further up the pitch isn't helping us win games other than Brighton where the ref and Brightons penalty takers had more of an impact for us.
Maitland-Niles will never be a central midfielder and has been anonymous for 99% of his time here.
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Mind numbing playing style?
Its been better than anything Bilic dished up this season.
Phillips has also been playing well, probably training well too.....
Totally disagree that the playing style is better now. Must win games and we employ a try not to lose mentality? Not for me thanks. I fully appreciate that you have your opinion but I just do not agree with it on this occasion.
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Yep dull as dishwater under Allardyce, playing with fear and conceding 70% possession to the opposition. All the traits associated with the much maligned Pulis.
Why haven't we replicated the Molineux performance where we scored 3. Mainly due to Allardyce operating with no flair in the final 3rd and selecting Pereira on the wing!
Someone said Phillips has been in good form, you must be easily pleased.
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Mind numbing playing style?
Its been better than anything Bilic dished up this season.
Phillips has also been playing well, probably training well too.....
More than mind numbing for me Tom even if not much left to numb. If this is the way we are playing when spectators are allowed back, many including me will have broken the habit and see little to encourage us to be back there. If you like it ok, your opinion is as valid as mine, but I am not happy about the playing style, nor many other things.
Better than anything Bilic dished up this season? Less likely to see us create or score goals, more likely to see us concede a bagful. Our own best player looking totally out of sorts and of course out of position. Supporters being divided and at each others throats might be different if we we were winning or even looking like winning a few, but as it is it's not a pleasant atmosphere. The club becoming a media joke as well. Keeper has improved though and is letting the side down less than he did under Bilic.
Agree wholeheartedly about Phillips- playing for a final payday/move, or is that me just being cynical
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Agree wholeheartedly about Phillips- playing for a final payday/move, or is that me just being cynical
Phillips always has one third of a good season in him,every season. No more, no less. This season he's dividing it over 90 mins a game. Decent for 30 minutes then completely spent and needs subbing off.
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More than mind numbing for me Tom even if not much left to numb. If this is the way we are playing when spectators are allowed back, many including me will have broken the habit and see little to encourage us to be back there. If you like it ok, your opinion is as valid as mine, but I am not happy about the playing style, nor many other things.
Better than anything Bilic dished up this season? Less likely to see us create or score goals, more likely to see us concede a bagful. Our own best player looking totally out of sorts and of course out of position. Supporters being divided and at each others throats might be different if we we were winning or even looking like winning a few, but as it is it's not a pleasant atmosphere. The club becoming a media joke as well. Keeper has improved though and is letting the side down less than he did under Bilic.
Agree wholeheartedly about Phillips- playing for a final payday/move, or is that me just being cynical
Agree 100%. There's a reason every club he's been at recently the fans have protested against the quality of the football.
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More than mind numbing for me Tom even if not much left to numb. If this is the way we are playing when spectators are allowed back, many including me will have broken the habit and see little to encourage us to be back there. If you like it ok, your opinion is as valid as mine, but I am not happy about the playing style, nor many other things.
Better than anything Bilic dished up this season? Less likely to see us create or score goals, more likely to see us concede a bagful. Our own best player looking totally out of sorts and of course out of position. Supporters being divided and at each others throats might be different if we we were winning or even looking like winning a few, but as it is it's not a pleasant atmosphere. The club becoming a media joke as well. Keeper has improved though and is letting the side down less than he did under Bilic.
Agree wholeheartedly about Phillips- playing for a final payday/move, or is that me just being cynical
I think there is an argument that when you're struggling performances go out of the window in the search for results but as we're getting neither then it turns people away, at the moment i'm seeing people going on about how much they're missing it, i'm seriously not and am having to consider whether I want to go back when we can.
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I'm not saying Allardyce's football is pretty, the opposite in fact, I'm not a fan. What I do contest, however, is the harking back to Bilic as some sort of maverick genius.
The truth is the football was pretty poor under both.
We are conceding less, however, and I don't think that can be contested. Maybe it is solely down to Yokuslu but I think that view is biased and naive. Allardyce has done it too many times in the past to not credit him with that.
Under Bilic we couldn't score or defend
Under Allardyce we can now defend but still can't score.
Hopefully the next bloke will be able to do both, but, as it will be in the Championship, it will be a far easier task for whoever it may be.
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I am looking forward to going back to the Hawthorns but unfortunately I remember the Pulis seasons and frankly I spent much of that time reading the programme and looking at my phone between set pieces and I swore never again. Now Allardyce? It is possible to argue the football is better but hardly and what is worse it is completely and utterly pointless and self defeating in the Championship.
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One thing is for sure we'd never see a repeat of that 5-1 v Swansea under Allardyce. It would be nick a goal then ensure you get the clean sheet.
It's surprising to me that people judge Bilic on 3months in the Premier League, when the Summer budget sealed our fate in any case.
Youkuslu wasn't available last Summer as he started the season for Celta. I suspect Allardyce would've ploughed on with Livermore just the same had he been in post?
The 8 years in the Premier League was a culmination of everything coming together. It's not normal to stay in the Premier League for that long with such little outlay. When we get it wrong, the inevitable result is relegation. Pulis made some real buys like Burke, Livermore, Chadli and they cost 30m+.
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In his last season in the Championship Allardyce had a 6-0 home win, 4-0 or 4-1 away wins four times plus numerous other high scoring matches. He also won the play off semi final 5 nil on aggregate.
They got 86 points.
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In his last season in the Championship Allardyce had a 6-0 home win, 4-0 or 4-1 away wins four times plus numerous other high scoring matches. He also won the play off semi final 5 nil on aggregate. They got 86 points.
83 points got Bilic a ton of grief so unless Allardyce gets 100 points we can look forward to seeing him crucified next season as well. He isn't the most progressive of managers, which ever way you look at it, but he's nowhere near as bad as Tony Pulis either. I've said before, it is worthwhile keeping with him, providing of course he wants to stay and is willing put the effort and time into the club and he is prepared to give Diangana, Robinson, Grant playing time. Else get rid and get yet another manager in more suited to the squad he will inherit.
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Orsic was the Championship January window in which we initially loaned Robinson. It had nothing to do with last summer.
You're literally one of only a handful of people who doesn't accept the January signings were driven by Allardyce and agents.
I do struggle with the widely held view that Bilic and Allerdyce we’re responsible for the clubs acquisitions, yet we have the conundrums of Grosicki and Kipre, ?!!
Who has been signed under Allardyce? Snodgrass and ...
Very confusing argument
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I do struggle with the widely held view that Bilic and Allerdyce we’re responsible for the clubs acquisitions, yet we have the conundrums of Grosicki and Kipre, ?!!
Who has been signed under Allardyce? Snodgrass and ...
Very confusing argument
Dowlings work those 2 i believe.
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A post on twitter summed it up for me saying people are never going to be happy..
Some people see a bloke who finished 14th, 13th & 10th in the premierleague as one of our worst ever managers.
I’d be happy to see big Sam stay next year just because if we do go up we will have someone in charge who knows what it takes to stay there for a change
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A post on twitter summed it up for me saying people are never going to be happy..
Some people see a bloke who finished 14th, 13th & 10th in the premierleague as one of our worst ever managers.
I’d be happy to see big Sam stay next year just because if we do go up we will have someone in charge who knows what it takes to stay there for a change
Might have missed the point here Lee, but I think they were referring to Pulis
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Might have missed the point here Lee, but I think they were referring to Pulis
They are, that is the point. Some people will moan whatever
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Press rumours that we will sign a certain over the hill ex West Ham CF now not being played at super successful Newcastle, if Allardyce is allowed to continue.....Yet another reason to get rid now for me
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Absolute disgrace if that comes to pass, send for Jonas !!
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Yep dull as dishwater under Allardyce, playing with fear and conceding 70% possession to the opposition. All the traits associated with the much maligned Pulis.
Why haven't we replicated the Molineux performance where we scored 3. Mainly due to Allardyce operating with no flair in the final 3rd and selecting Pereira on the wing!
Someone said Phillips has been in good form, you must be easily pleased.
11 games since the Dingles win. 6 goals scored. Absolutely awful. I'm not sure how anyone can say that is an improvement at all.
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11 games since the Dingles win. 6 goals scored. Absolutely awful. I'm not sure how anyone can say that is an improvement at all.
No, it absolutely isn't.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/04/01/big-sam-id-stay-if-west-brom-aim-to-bounce-back/
Sam said he's willing to stay on if backed and knows who is being sold or not and a decent budget to work with.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/04/01/big-sam-id-stay-if-west-brom-aim-to-bounce-back/
Sam said he's willing to stay on if backed and knows who is being sold or not and a decent budget to work with.
Interesting article. It's also poor timing though as I'd hoped everyone on here had argued themselves to a constipated standstill. That article should unblock a few colons though, never mind eh..... ;D .
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Excellent news if true. Much better than the Brum Mail's main Albion story today.
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To be honest it was worth posting just for the diehard Bilic fans to comment on and I look forward to everyones opinions on this when I catch up tommorow
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To be honest it was worth posting just for the diehard Bilic fans to comment on and I look forward to everyones opinions on this when I catch up tommorow
Come on, we've had the Bilic/ Allardyce stuff to death and we have asked now for the 3rd time to concentrate on Allardyce which is who this topic is about, as of now we will be monitoring this thread and as before posts will go.
Just to repeat myself again anyone can feel free to start a new topic comparing the 2 but this is not the one to do it in.
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A few weeks ago I would of said keep him but now I think we need somebody different. One thing I will say about Allerdyce is I feel alot more confident with him having a say in signings than I did some of our more recent other head coaches. Ideally the club scrap the head coach role and Dowling along with it and just made him a manager who has total control of transfer dealings.
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A few weeks ago I would of said keep him but now I think we need somebody different. One thing I will say about Allerdyce is I feel alot more confident with him having a say in signings than I did some of our more recent other head coaches. Ideally the club scrap the head coach role and Dowling along with it and just made him a manager who has total control of transfer dealings.
The most sensible post on this thread for some time!
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If he doesn't keep us up then he's failed in his remit, say thank you very much and move on. Dowling should also go as he's not very good at his job. Hope we see the back of owner as well all change down the Hawthorns I hope.
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I’d be happy to keep Allardyce for next season.
Chopping and changing managers constantly is detrimental. His remit may have been to keep us up, but that was hopeful whoever was in charge.
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I'm 50/50 on this , his age at that level would worry me although he has two younger members of staff in Stockdale and Morrison . Massive down for me though would be Dowling more than likely staying too .
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Perfectly happy with Sam here next year. Straight talking guy who doesn't suffer fools gladly.
The caveat being if there is a budget to do the job. Knowing our illustrious board he will get £2m and asked to perform miracles.
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Indifferent to him staying. Has good points and no doubt a good manager BUT some of his calls of late are dumb, not working and he's willingly sticking with them namely the AMN CM issue. Only thing i can think is maybe we have signed a deal saying he must play there when possible which is stupid and no hindisght required for that.
I'd much rather see Dowling go first.
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Truly awful news that we might be stuck with him. Obviously won't resign unless he isn't happy with the likely backing he gets in the Championship so we will saddle ourselves with more overpaid journeymen pro's playing hoofball which if it succeeds we will be back in the Premier League grinding out 40 points or it fails and we have a squad incapable of getting out of the division (see Stoke) neither of which is remotely appealing.
Deal me out.
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A few weeks ago I would of said keep him but now I think we need somebody different. One thing I will say about Allerdyce is I feel alot more confident with him having a say in signings than I did some of our more recent other head coaches. Ideally the club scrap the head coach role and Dowling along with it and just made him a manager who has total control of transfer dealings.
Oh brilliant idea: give Allardyce total control of recruitment. No doubt he'll be contracting his son, Craig, as the main agency for Albion and his wife as club secretary.
https://pressgazette.co.uk/still-no-writs-for-panorama-as-allardyce-threatens-legal-action/
I think what will happen is that he will make some demands that no club could accept and then find justification for walking away. I'm happy with that. I don't want to add severance pay the the money we've already wasted on trying to avoid an inevitable relegation.
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Perfectly happy with Sam here next year. Straight talking guy who doesn't suffer fools gladly.
The caveat being if there is a budget to do the job. Knowing our illustrious board he will get £2m and asked to perform miracles.
In fairness, Bilic and Moore both had decent budgets for the Championship. A lot of other fans in that division were envious of our squad. When you could afford to have players like Gibbs and Austin on the bench, it says a lot.
I think Allardyce is posturing for a swift exit, personally.
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Easy really. By pass all the problems and based on performance overall sack him now. Bring in a new guy, not a temp, and start planning for chumps nest season. sell the stuff that don't want to be here and can easily be replaced and give our best, less easily replaced, options reasons to want to stay with us.
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Interesting that he has said he is only willing to stay if he is guaranteed a budget to get us promoted. I can now look forward to hundreds of posts on here about his relationship with the board being fractured and how it's impossible for him to stay....
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Just get a manager who can maintain his interest. Or even look like he's interested.
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Just get a manager who can maintain his interest. Or even look like he's interested.
that's what irked me and I don't want him here next season.
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Fantastic news if he stays
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Classic wind-up post. I think our old manager is on record for saying he loved his job, in his press conference after drawing at City. If Allardyce moves on it is a sign that he doesn't back himself to get us promoted.
No if he moves on it's because the board haven't agreed what he considers sufficient assurances that promotion in the first year down is the target and backed him to that extent. He's said so, it's gist of the whole interview...
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And STILL the 'my coach is bigger than your coach' debate continues....
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Classic wind-up post. I think our old manager is on record for saying he loved his job, in his press conference after drawing at City. If Allardyce moves on it is a sign that he doesn't back himself to get us promoted.
Depends who you listen to regarding Bilic but thats been done to death.
My genuine belief is Allardyce would like to stay here but when we go down he wants to know the true aspirations of the club (nothing wrong with that) afterall I am not sure he was given what he was promised in the transfer market this season even with the signings he did make.
I still believe the club will appoint a 'lapdog' manager.
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And STILL the 'my coach is bigger than your coach' debate continues....
I think the only way some will listen or take notice of us is when we remove posts just as some have now been.
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I would be ok with him being here next season and if he succeeds with promotion then another year beyond that. His mission was tough with what he had. Once he got in what we needed and what he felt was what we needed (which by the way, marries up with what most of us say on here, a new central midfield and a striker) we've been different and people will point to stats but I'd say that over the course of a season an Allardyce-assembled team does enough to get us back on track to being an established Premier League team.
Of course I'd love to see us doing something more fashionable and playing football like Leeds but it just isn't going to happen with the current board and Dowling, sadly the club has gotten itself in another mess and pragmatism is needed. After the pragmatism can then come something more progressive.
The problems at this club do not fall at the feet of the head coach.
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I would be ok with him being here next season and if he succeeds with promotion then another year beyond that. His mission was tough with what he had. Once he got in what we needed and what he felt was what we needed (which by the way, marries up with what most of us say on here, a new central midfield and a striker) we've been different and people will point to stats but I'd say that over the course of a season an Allardyce-assembled team does enough to get us back on track to being an established Premier League team.
Of course I'd love to see us doing something more fashionable and playing football like Leeds but it just isn't going to happen with the current board and Dowling, sadly the club has gotten itself in another mess and pragmatism is needed. After the pragmatism can then come something more progressive.
The problems at this club do not fall at the feet of the head coach.
Can't see both Allardyce and Pereira being here at the start of next season. It will be one or the other I think.
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Can't see both Allardyce and Pereira being here at the start of next season. It will be one or the other I think.
Add Diangana and Robinson to the list of players that Allardyce doesn't trust / has marginalised.
One of the key strengths of Management is to manage and motivate all different types of personalities for the good of the organisation. Allardyce continues to put 2 fingers up to the fans with these baffling selections.
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One thing we do need to keep in mind and be mindful of with Allerdyce is he clearly doesn't rate the likes of Grant, Diangana and Robinson. These are players who we know for sure can cut it in the championship. These are the players who he needs to have some faith in and be able to manage next season if he stays. That might prove difficult after freezing them out of the picture this season.
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One thing we do need to keep in mind and be mindful of with Allerdyce is he clearly doesn't rate the likes of Grant, Diangana and Robinson.
... which is my biggest concern about the possibility of SA staying with us. I don't want him stifling what I think could be a holy trinity next season.
Though as others have pointed out on here, we need to know which MP and which GD we will be getting next season too. Attitude is everything.
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The other thing to remember about Pereira & Diangana (and even Robinson to a lesser extent) is that they are our most saleable assets - or at least they should be. Allardyce not using them properly (or at all) is hurting that. That is up to him of course but says a lot about our complete lack of forward thinking - even more so should we keep him next season. And this is my main reason for not wanting him here next season.
Of course every club should build around its best players, but some can afford to watch £18m of talent waste away in the reserves. We absolutely can’t given our financial position.
As such while next season’s manager - whoever it is - should expect to be backed in the transfer market (God knows we have a lot of weaknesses to address), it should also be reiterated to them that in MP and GD we have two of the best attacking players from the Championship last season, and the expectation would be to get the best out of them.
Ultimately we will not have the money to replace/upgrade them, and we have huge problem areas both up front and in centre mid so that is where any investment should go.
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He says a condition is that he's given a decent budget for next season. But didn't he say he thought he could keep us up (you know, never been relegated etc) with the budget he was given for this season.
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No if he moves on it's because the board haven't agreed what he considers sufficient assurances that promotion in the first year down is the target and backed him to that extent. He's said so, it's gist of the whole interview...
That's kind of what I meant Jacko, if he leaves, it's because he doesn't think he can get us promoted with the budget available to him. But at the same time, he's not going to given any less of a budget than Moore or Bilic had so it will be interesting to see how it plays out, and how much he backs himself.
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I'd be genuinely surprised if he gets the same budget as either Darren Moore or Slaven Bilic. The financial landscape has changed along with the parachute payment set up.
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I'd be genuinely surprised if he gets the same budget as either Darren Moore or Slaven Bilic. The financial landscape has changed along with the parachute payment set up.
We will get a bigger parachute payment next season when the did last season with Bilic.
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We will get a bigger parachute payment next season when the did last season with Bilic.
Do you know what the figures are? Genuinely don't know
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Do you know what the figures are? Genuinely don't know
£90m I think.
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£90m I think.
Didn't know that. Thought it was 60mnish as usual. Cheers!
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Lads, cut the digs at others out, cut the comments like "egg on faces". How about we enjoy the win without having to start the old back and forth stuff we've been putting up with recently?
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Brilliant today all round. Surely he now realises that he had a criminal mistake by ghosting Robinson for the last two months?
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Excellent today Sam. Injuries may have forced his hand but the team looked better once they did. Will he stick with it or shy away like his predecessor
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Hammering Chelski 5-2 shows we have the fire power to compete in this league, pitty its probably to late.
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£90m I think.
It's based on a percentage of the guaranteed PL TV money - the part that every PL team gets. Until this season it was 55% in Year 1, 45% in Year 2 and then 20% in Year 3, but from next season it's payable over just 2 years and is still 55% and 45% in Year 1 and Year 2.
Over the past few seasons it has equated to £40m, £35m then £15m, so £90m over 3 years. It's hard to work it out currently as the PL has changed how it shares out the money.
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It's based on a percentage of the guaranteed PL TV money - the part that every PL team gets. Until this season it was 55% in Year 1, 45% in Year 2 and then 20% in Year 3, but from next season it's payable over just 2 years and is still 55% and 45% in Year 1 and Year 2.
Over the past few seasons it has equated to £40m, £35m then £15m, so £90m over 3 years. It's hard to work it out currently as the PL has changed how it shares out the money.
Cheers for that explanation. I'll send it on to all the Sheffield Utd, Fulham and Newcastle fans ;D
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Another organised performance where we played very well through the lines - some composed football and plenty of opportunities created.
I do not agree with assertions that he is a dinosaur - I think it’s a rather lazy label that has been attributed to him.
The big tests are against those sides who will not be as open as Chelsea - it may be attritional but it is not to the standards we have previously witnessed.
I hope he now puts more faith in Robinson and realises just how important to us Pereira is when he plays centrally.
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He also deserves praise for the Robinson substitution - would have been very easy to continue with Peltier and three at the back. The Robinson substitution totally changed the game and provided us with an additional forward presence against an exposed back line.
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He also deserves praise for the Robinson substitution - would have been very easy to continue with Peltier and three at the back. The Robinson substitution totally changed the game and provided us with an additional forward presence against an exposed back line.
Yep when I saw Peltier strip off ready I chucked my mars bar at the TV. Was fuming,not going to lie. Then Robinson came on and all was well.
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He also deserves praise for the Robinson substitution - would have been very easy to continue with Peltier and three at the back. The Robinson substitution totally changed the game and provided us with an additional forward presence against an exposed back line.
Not wishing to rain on the parade today, but he does have a serious question to ask about why HRK came on with 11 mins left in several games we needed to win instead of giving Robinson half an hour.
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Not wishing to rain on the parade today, but he does have a serious question to ask about why HRK came on with 11 mins left in several games we needed to win instead of giving Robinson half an hour.
Why?
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He also deserves praise for the Robinson substitution - would have been very easy to continue with Peltier and three at the back. The Robinson substitution totally changed the game and provided us with an additional forward presence against an exposed back line.
That would have been criminal, we were losing by then and Chelsea were down to ten men. I can't credit him for freezing our Robinson for two months and then brining him on when he did, it was an absolute no brainer.
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There's plenty I don't like about the bloke but looking at what I've seen since the Fulham game onwards when he could get his own players in anybody banding him with Pulis , Hughes , Bruce and the likes as a dinosaur is wrong . We've played some good football at the right times , I can't deny that and until Today the finishing has been poor .
He himself might be a bit too old but there's not much too wrong how we play for me in a league where we can't compete money wise from about 15th place up .
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There's plenty I don't like about the bloke but looking at what I've seen since the Fulham game onwards when he could get his own players in anybody banding him with Pulis , Hughes , Bruce and the likes as a dinosaur is wrong . We've played some good football at the right times , I can't deny that and until Today the finishing has been poor .
He himself might be a bit too old but there's not much too wrong how we play for me in a league where we can't compete money wise from about 15th place up .
He's 66. Many would take Roy back in a heartbeat.
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He's 66. Many would take Roy back in a heartbeat.
I've felt maybe Sam's lacked a bit of zest at times , looked a little tired . I could be wrong.
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I've felt maybe Sam's lacked a bit of zest at times , looked a little tired . I could be wrong.
He's had to change his outlook and therefore his demeanour since his heart issues.
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I've felt maybe Sam's lacked a bit of zest at times , looked a little tired . I could be wrong.
Sammy Lee provides all that. Allardyce doesnt need to be dancing along the touchline.
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He's had to change his outlook and therefore his demeanour since his heart issues.
I would say nail on head there.
Needs to find the balance of doing a good job...and enjoying it.
And overdoing it.
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I realise one swallow does not a summer make and all that, but today was delicious - and reassuring.
I have not expected an attacking side with SA in charge but today it was there for all to see.
Fantastic all round and delighted to see Callum in the team proving he's worth playing and to see Matheus back to his old self. It's too much to ask but I'd love for us to see this season out playing like this... (no $#1T, Sherlock!)
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Having now seen the way forward, if Allardyce does utilise the squad properly between now and the end of the season, I'll be prepared to eat humble pie.
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Having now seen the way forward, if Allardyce does utilise the squad properly between now and the end of the season, I'll be prepared to eat humble pie.
I'll bloody bake it for you mate. More than happy to be proved wrong.... eight more showings like this please, regardless of next season....
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Yep when I saw Peltier strip off ready I chucked my mars bar at the TV. Was fuming,not going to lie. Then Robinson came on and all was well.
I was also the same he was done for me if Peltier came on Robbo was absolutely the right sub. I have been critical of Sam I hope he realises the handbrake needs to be released a little Pereira has to be central & Robo needs to play, in fairness to him he’s not as dinosaur as most make out we press pretty high, if we can attacking right he’l have really worked wonders.
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Not a fan, but so glad he had a change of heart and brought on Robinson rather than Peltier.
We have some good options on bench. Nothing to lose, hope to see a little more Diangana to get him ready for next year, as he will be vital.
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Got to give credit where its due when we are so easily willing to dish out stick. His tactics and substitutions were spot on today. Well done Sam!
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Got to give credit where its due when we are so easily willing to dish out stick. His tactics and substitutions were spot on today. Well done Sam!
Playing devils advocate, bringing on Ivanovich who hasn't kicked a ball for months was a mistake, cost us a sub option. Today just showed how wrong he has been to drop Robinson and play HRK. I agree, the decision to press Chelsea and take the game to them was correct and suited our players. Baffling we didn't take approach against Newcastle and Palace.
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Playing devils advocate, bringing on Ivanovich who hasn't kicked a ball for months was a mistake, cost us a sub option. Today just showed how wrong he has been to drop Robinson and play HRK. I agree, the decision to press Chelsea and take the game to them was correct and suited our players. Baffling we didn't take approach against Newcastle and Palace.
True and games like the ones you mentioned will be the ones we look back on once we are relegated and regret not going for.
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Playing devils advocate, bringing on Ivanovich who hasn't kicked a ball for months was a mistake, cost us a sub option. Today just showed how wrong he has been to drop Robinson and play HRK. I agree, the decision to press Chelsea and take the game to them was correct and suited our players. Baffling we didn't take approach against Newcastle and Palace.
Or...
At nil nil it made sense to change like for like. Credit for bring on Robinson when he had the option of sticking to the system with Peltier and Robson-Kanu.
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Or...
At nil nil it made sense to change like for like. Credit for bring on Robinson when he had the option of sticking to the system with Peltier and Robson-Kanu.
I think Allardyce at the moment is doing a lot right and I've no desire to seek to change the manager again but his treatment of Robinson has been a shambles, not something to credit him for. Your cheerleading of him on this point is partisan. I suspect even Sam would be big enough to acknowledge that he has got it wrong in the last few weeks.
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I think Allardyce at the moment is doing a lot right and I've no desire to seek to change the manager again but his treatment of Robinson has been a shambles, not something to credit him for. Your cheerleading of him on this point is partisan. I suspect even Sam would be big enough to acknowledge that he has got it wrong in the last few weeks.
Totally agree. His treatment of Robinson is a shambles. Robson Kanu is not even one quarter of the player Robinson is. And myself and a few others have continually pointed this out for weeks.
I also think he should have ditched Livermore and Sawyers earlier in his tenure. He had plenty of warnings with those early thrashings.
The least Allardyce can do now is go out all guns blazing in the last 8 games and I don't want to hear "shutting down the opposition".
If he does that then he will gain far more respect.
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Absolutely agree.
I could think of a much stronger word for his treatment of Callum.
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Or...
At nil nil it made sense to change like for like. Credit for bring on Robinson when he had the option of sticking to the system with Peltier and Robson-Kanu.
I agree Sam deserves some credit for going with Callum and not Snodgrass or something, but how would swapping Ivan, who was playing in the middle of the defence, for Peltier or Kanu be "sticking to the system"?
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I don't want Allardyce here next season as for me too many bridges will have been burnt, but yesterday his substitution changed the game. It was fortuitous with Ivanovic's injury as I doubt he would have made that change that early otherwise, but Robinson changed the game. There are question marks of course over why Robinson was frozen out in favour of HRK anyway, this just goes some way to proving Allardyce was too cautious, but credit where it's due for making the right sub this time (anf true to the stereotype, Allardyce has made sure the world knows it was his tactical decisions from what I've seen of his post match reaction).
The football we played yesterday was breathtakingly good. Quick passing, counter attacking, overwhelming their defence with numbers. It was really, really good to watch. Allardyce hasn't played what i would call long ball football when here. It has still been dull because it's been overly cautious and the middle of the park still end up being under utilised, but it hasn't been long ball. If he played yesterday's football more often, people would view him in the same light as more modern defensive managers.
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I also think he should have ditched Livermore and Sawyers earlier in his tenure.
For who?
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I don't want Allardyce here next season as for me too many bridges will have been burnt, but yesterday his substitution changed the game. It was fortuitous with Ivanovic's injury as I doubt he would have made that change that early otherwise, but Robinson changed the game. There are question marks of course over why Robinson was frozen out in favour of HRK anyway, this just goes some way to proving Allardyce was too cautious, but credit where it's due for making the right sub this time (anf true to the stereotype, Allardyce has made sure the world knows it was his tactical decisions from what I've seen of his post match reaction).
The football we played yesterday was breathtakingly good. Quick passing, counter attacking, overwhelming their defence with numbers. It was really, really good to watch. Allardyce hasn't played what i would call long ball football when here. It has still been dull because it's been overly cautious and the middle of the park still end up being under utilised, but it hasn't been long ball. If he played yesterday's football more often, people would view him in the same light as more modern defensive managers.
Allardyce didn’t play the game. Our players did, and they were brilliant. They played the others too when they weren’t so good. It’s about both parties - manager and player, but they have to take responsibility when they cross the line.
And I don’t understand what bridges have been burnt. Allardyce is an excellent coach, probably the best we’re likely to find in the mess we’re in, and we’re one bad appointment away from sinking into the middle of the Championship or worse.
I very much hope he’s here next season to get a team together that not only goes straight back up but has a chance of staying up, unlike the unbalanced, unfit and poorly coached shambles we’ve had for most of this season.
I think we’re very lucky to have Allardyce, and I fervently hope we don’t throw the chance away that his presence gives us. I fear we may have a very long time to regret it if we do so simply because people “don’t like him.â€
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Allardyce is the right man for West Brom, end of.
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Managers have an impact on how a team plays ttree30, that's surely something we all agree on and something that doesn't require debate. It's why Guardiola's teams are different to Pulis's teams are different to Klopp's teams. By saying "Guardiola's football" I'm not saying Guardiola is on the pitch physically playing. I'm also not saying De Bruyne, Sterling, Jesus at al have nothing to do. I'm saying Guardiola sets the blue print.
Allardyce changed things up after the Ivanovic injury and moved Pereira into the middle and introduced another attacking winger/forward which allowed us to break on Chelsea on several occasions. Post match, Allardyce talked about the work he did during the 2-3 week break and the tactical set up he wanted to adopt for this game. Therefore - "If he played like that more often" is a perfectly reasonable comment. For the avoidance of doubt, it's not absolving the players of any responsibility. I'm purely talking aboutbthe bit Allardyce has publicly taken credit for.
As for Burnt bridges, i've gone over this before, but very expensive players who will need to play a key role next season such as Karlan Grant and Grady Diangana have been frozen out with rumours of fall outs in the case of the latter. Other players who we will need next season who can't get a look in are Romaine Sawyers and to a lesser extent Jake Livermore, plus up until yesterday, Callum Robinson. Post CoVID, we won't have the money to replace the entire squad for next season's promotion push and so very capable players like those at Championship level will need to be integrated into our plans. That will take an almighty effort having written them off up to this point. Allardyce has already intimated to the press this week that if he stays he would want backing to make changes, but our limited funds will likely be needed to fill gaping holes like the base of our midfield and a centre forward, not buy more wingers or attacking midfielders to replace those already at the club who can do a job for us.
Many want Allardyce to stay and that's their view, but I've listed my own personal reasons already for wanting a fresh start next season, including the frozen out players issue, as well as Allardyce's style of play not necessarily being suited to automatic promotion pushes and the fact the game is changing in favour of more progressive managers.
The only real case I can make for Allardyce to stay is that Dowling is too limited to trust to get the players we need whereas Allardyce does have connections.
Anyway, that's a debate for another day. I'm very happy with yesterday's performance and the intention of my original post was to give credit for the game changing Robinson sub and for his change in tactics/emphasis this game which made it thoroughly enjoyable.
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Managers have an impact on how a team plays ttree30, that's surely something we all agree on and something that doesn't require debate. It's why Guardiola's teams are different to Pulis's teams are different to Klopp's teams. By saying "Guardiola's football" I'm not saying Guardiola is on the pitch physically playing. I'm also not saying De Bruyne, Sterling, Jesus at al have nothing to do. I'm saying Guardiola sets the blue print.
Allardyce changed things up after the Ivanovic injury and moved Pereira into the middle and introduced another attacking winger/forward which allowed us to break on Chelsea on several occasions. Post match, Allardyce talked about the work he did during the 2-3 week break and the tactical set up he wanted to adopt for this game. Therefore - "If he played like that more often" is a perfectly reasonable comment. For the avoidance of doubt, it's not absolving the players of any responsibility. I'm purely talking aboutbthe bit Allardyce has publicly taken credit for.
As for Burnt bridges, i've gone over this before, but very expensive players who will need to play a key role next season such as Karlan Grant and Grady Diangana have been frozen out with rumours of fall outs in the case of the latter. Other players who we will need next season who can't get a look in are Romaine Sawyers and to a lesser extent Jake Livermore, plus up until yesterday, Callum Robinson. Post CoVID, we won't have the money to replace the entire squad for next season's promotion push and so very capable players like those at Championship level will need to be integrated into our plans. That will take an almighty effort having written them off up to this point. Allardyce has already intimated to the press this week that if he stays he would want backing to make changes, but our limited funds will likely be needed to fill gaping holes like the base of our midfield and a centre forward, not buy more wingers or attacking midfielders to replace those already at the club who can do a job for us.
Many want Allardyce to stay and that's their view, but I've listed my own personal reasons already for wanting a fresh start next season, including the frozen out players issue, as well as Allardyce's style of play not necessarily being suited to automatic promotion pushes and the fact the game is changing towards in favour of more progressive managers.
The only real case I can make for Allardyce to stay is that Dowling is too limited to trust to get the players we need whereas Allardyce does have connections.
Anyway, that's a debate for another day. I'm very happy with yesterday's performance and the intention of my original post was to give credit for the game changing Robinson sub and for his change in tactics/emphasis this game which made it thoroughly enjoyable.
Exactly how I see it. Yesterday was brilliant, but begs the question why didn't we implement similar tactics in more winnable (on paper) games. Plus amplifies those question marks too about why Robinson was frozen out for so long.
If we consistently play like that between now and the end of the season then great. But I'll wait until we do it 11 v 11 against teams outside the top 6 before I'm convinced Allardyce is the right man for us next season.
It is perfectly fine to dislike a manager if there are valid arguments for it, and in this case there are (just as there are valid reasons for liking him).
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As for Burnt bridges, i've gone over this before, but very expensive players who will need to play a key role next season such as Karlan Grant and Grady Diangana have been frozen out with rumours of fall outs in the case of the latter. Other players who we will need next season who can't get a look in are Romaine Sawyers and to a lesser extent Jake Livermore, plus up until yesterday, Callum Robinson. Post CoVID, we won't have the money to replace the entire squad for next season's promotion push and so very capable players like those at Championship level will need to be integrated into our plans. That will take an almighty effort having written them off up to this point. Allardyce has already intimated to the press this week that if he stays he would want backing to make changes, but our limited funds will likely be needed to fill gaping holes like the base of our midfield and a centre forward, not buy more wingers or attacking midfielders to replace those already at the club who can do a job for us.
I am not sure sidelining players who are not up to the task as burning bridges Baggies. All that Grady and Grant have to do is step up. Callum got his chance yesterday and took it.
They will be good in the Championship next year, no doubt about it, but having players on our books for next year is a bit of a waste.
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Can’t see him getting another premier team so I understand he will want reassurance about next season but he won’t get a better squad at a Championship team.
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Burning bridges is just the turn of phrase I've gone with. It might be over stating it, it might not.
The facts we have to hand are that;
A, Allardyce either does not rate Grant/Diangana/Sawyers/Livermore or does not see them fitting into his preferred tactical model
B, It is rare for a player who has been completely left out by a manager one season to then all of a sudden become a key cog for them the next season. It's even rarer for 2 or 3 of them to do that all in one go.
We don't know what their ceiling is at the moment as they are young and haven't had a sustained chance in a balanced system. Under the right manager, Grant and Diangana could flourish.
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We do know that Diangana has an extremely high ceiling though. Fair enough leaving Grant out as he hasn't really proven anything yet, but Grady has and should be central to our plans.
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Burning bridges is just the turn of phrase I've gone with. It might be over stating it, it might not.
The facts we have to hand are that;
A, Allardyce either does not rate Grant/Diangana/Sawyers/Livermore or does not see them fitting into his preferred tactical model
B, It is rare for a player who has been completely left out by a manager one season to then all of a sudden become a key cog for them the next season. It's even rarer for 2 or 3 of them to do that all in one go.
We don't know what their ceiling is at the moment as they are young and haven't had a sustained chance in a balanced system. Under the right manager, Grant and Diangana could flourish.
I disagree. It merely highlights the huge gulf in quality between the Premier League and Championship. Top Championship-standard players but not good enough for the Premier League (although I reserve judgement on Diangana).
Norwich are proving exactly how large the gulf is. There is no clearer example.
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I disagree. It merely highlights the huge gulf in quality between the Premier League and Championship. Top Championship-standard players but not good enough for the Premier League (although I reserve judgement on Diangana).
Norwich are proving exactly how large the gulf is. There is no clearer example.
There is a big gap (it's why I wasn't hugely in favour of Grant originally). Lots of players do however make the step up. Many of Norwich's players can play in the prem but they failed to bolster their side with good enough additions. The key is identifying and replacing those who have hit their ceiling. We didn't do that and we failed to bring about any balance until January and so the likes of Grady and Grant have had limited opportunities to prove themselves.
In the case of Grant, I would be fascinates to see what he could do playing off Diagne for a few games. All we have seen so far is him look ineffective as a loan striker - just like the uneducated, no nothing football fans at Huddersfield told us.
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Allardyce can't take credit for yesterday without taking responsibility for the abject failure to even roll the attacking dice in either the Palace and Newcastle games which could have made a difference to our prospects or for that matter any of the other must win games in his tenure.
A deeply cynical person might suggest that it was only the happy accident of Ivanovic's hamstring that pushed our visionary coach into changing tack.
The issue of him burning bridges with the squad that he will have to depend on next season is a real one but it is problem for any quick fix coach would have had and it is not specific to Allardyce. The flimflam about resources being the key to his staying is just cover for him slipping away quietly to lurk in the shadows for another unsuspecting victim to fall for the Big Sam schtick . A few eye catching performances and a respectable points total greatly helps his cause.
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I think the break we had from Palace game gave Sam and little Sam the time to get into the player's heads that they are good enough to play in this league. Robinson substition was a bigger factor in the result than the sending off as we went from a defensive unit to a attacking unit scoring goals for fun.
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Managers have an impact on how a team plays ttree30, that's surely something we all agree on and something that doesn't require debate. It's why Guardiola's teams are different to Pulis's teams are different to Klopp's teams. By saying "Guardiola's football" I'm not saying Guardiola is on the pitch physically playing. I'm also not saying De Bruyne, Sterling, Jesus at al have nothing to do. I'm saying Guardiola sets the blue print.
Allardyce changed things up after the Ivanovic injury and moved Pereira into the middle and introduced another attacking winger/forward which allowed us to break on Chelsea on several occasions. Post match, Allardyce talked about the work he did during the 2-3 week break and the tactical set up he wanted to adopt for this game. Therefore - "If he played like that more often" is a perfectly reasonable comment. For the avoidance of doubt, it's not absolving the players of any responsibility. I'm purely talking aboutbthe bit Allardyce has publicly taken credit for.
As for Burnt bridges, i've gone over this before, but very expensive players who will need to play a key role next season such as Karlan Grant and Grady Diangana have been frozen out with rumours of fall outs in the case of the latter. Other players who we will need next season who can't get a look in are Romaine Sawyers and to a lesser extent Jake Livermore, plus up until yesterday, Callum Robinson. Post CoVID, we won't have the money to replace the entire squad for next season's promotion push and so very capable players like those at Championship level will need to be integrated into our plans. That will take an almighty effort having written them off up to this point. Allardyce has already intimated to the press this week that if he stays he would want backing to make changes, but our limited funds will likely be needed to fill gaping holes like the base of our midfield and a centre forward, not buy more wingers or attacking midfielders to replace those already at the club who can do a job for us.
Many want Allardyce to stay and that's their view, but I've listed my own personal reasons already for wanting a fresh start next season, including the frozen out players issue, as well as Allardyce's style of play not necessarily being suited to automatic promotion pushes and the fact the game is changing in favour of more progressive managers.
The only real case I can make for Allardyce to stay is that Dowling is too limited to trust to get the players we need whereas Allardyce does have connections.
Anyway, that's a debate for another day. I'm very happy with yesterday's performance and the intention of my original post was to give credit for the game changing Robinson sub and for his change in tactics/emphasis this game which made it thoroughly enjoyable.
I respect your point of view. I disagree with most of it, but that’s what debate’s about. 👍
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All the 'Big Sam' fans (including himself) trying to give him credit for this one fine performance after all the fear ridden dross he has provided since he got here. This was a superb team performance driven by two specific players. One, Allardyce had frozen out until today's fortuitous substitution, and the other driven to distraction by Allardyce preferring inferior borrowed abilities, and not allowing him to operate where he best affects the game in the ways he can, ie. Creating and scoring goals from central advanced positions. Going forward I want to see a head coach/manager, who gets the best out of every player, not just the odd one or two, plays the best players in their most effective positions and has the courage give his team the freedom to play to their instincts and skills, not just by numbers.
I do not see any great Allardyce improvements in our defensive play either. Just more defensive players being used in a more defensive system at the expense of being able to win matches. Despite players like Townsend and Bartley, showing improvements our defence is still so poor defending crosses from wide areas. The loan signing of Yokuslu in midfield has been a success, but there are doubts whether or not it was Allardyce or Albion who marked him out. And anyway he will not be here next season. Gallagher and AMN I am not too bothered about, but we need similar workhorses to replace them, the same with Diagne but if he stays fine by me.
Allardyce has milked the successes few as they are, and blamed others for the poor displays. I sincerely hope and believe we can do better than Allardyce next season and onward, but the ownership and technical support still scare me to death and along with replacing Allardyce, I would also like to see owners with an interest, and technical support with a creative world view on players we might sign, not just the somewhat parochial efforts of the incumbents. So it is not just Allardyce that needs to go.
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All the 'Big Sam' fans (including himself) trying to give him credit for this one fine performance after all the fear ridden dross he has provided since he got here. This was a superb team performance driven by two specific players. One, Allardyce had frozen out until today's fortuitous substitution, and the other driven to distraction by Allardyce preferring inferior borrowed abilities, and not allowing him to operate where he best affects the game in the ways he can, ie. Creating and scoring goals from central advanced positions. Going forward I want to see a head coach/manager, who gets the best out of every player, not just the odd one or two, plays the best players in their most effective positions and has the courage give his team the freedom to play to their instincts and skills, not just by numbers.
I do not see any great Allardyce improvements in our defensive play either. Just more defensive players being used in a more defensive system at the expense of being able to win matches. Despite players like Townsend and Bartley, showing improvements our defence is still so poor defending crosses from wide areas. The loan signing of Yokuslu in midfield has been a success, but there are doubts whether or not it was Allardyce or Albion who marked him out. And anyway he will not be here next season. Gallagher and AMN I am not too bothered about, but we need similar workhorses to replace them, the same with Diagne but if he stays fine by me.
Allardyce has milked the successes few as they are, and blamed others for the poor displays. I sincerely hope and believe we can do better than Allardyce next season and onward, but the ownership and technical support still scare me to death and along with replacing Allardyce, I would also like to see owners with an interest, and technical support with a creative world view on players we might sign, not just the somewhat parochial efforts of the incumbents. So it is not just Allardyce that needs to go.
I think there’s a completely false assumption here, certainly as far as it applies to me.
I’m an Albion fan. I’m not a “Big Sam fan.â€
I want the best outcome for our club. And my current opinion is that he is by far the best chance we have of quickly returning to the EPL with a team that might survive and even prosper longer term.
It’s nothing to do with being a fan of Allardyce. It’s an honestly held opinion about what’s best for the Albion.
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Tell you what lads it's a good job we won. This thread would have made for gruesome reading had we been the ones to ship five (again). Thank the heavens for Ivanovic's unexpected turn of pace and overly taut hamstring ;D.
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I think there’s a completely false assumption here, certainly as far as it applies to me.
I’m an Albion fan. I’m not a “Big Sam fan.â€
I want the best outcome for our club. And my current opinion is that he is by far the best chance we have of quickly returning to the EPL with a team that might survive and even prosper longer term.
It’s nothing to do with being a fan of Allardyce. It’s an honestly held opinion about what’s best for the Albion.
Completely respect your opinion ttree and that of others who may honestly believe that Allardyce is the best chance we have. Obviously I do not agree with you, but intended no slight to The Albion supporters who do. I rather clumsily perhaps, meant to show that whilst 'Big Sam' is his own biggest fan, I do not hold the same view, and hope for a better longer term option if one can be found.
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I'm still curious who Allardyce should have replaced Livermore and Sawyers with before we got Okay and AMN in? Enlighten us GREGMT
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I'm still curious who Allardyce should have replaced Livermore and Sawyers with before we got Okay and AMN in? Enlighten us GREGMT
Krov or the club canteen staff were better options than Livermore.
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I'm still curious who Allardyce should have replaced Livermore and Sawyers with before we got Okay and AMN in? Enlighten us GREGMT
If only BOTH of the Chuckle Brothers were still alive....
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If only BOTH of the Chuckle Brothers were still alive....
We've had enough sideways football at times without any of that 'over to you over to me' guff ;D .
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I already said before Allardyce could've signed a young energetic Championship / League 1 midfielder in early January and it would've been an upgrade on Livermore. It would've been a pittance and we still could've got Yoksulu.
Livermore's appalling lack of mobility cost us time and again in the 1st half of this season.
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Completely respect your opinion ttree and that of others who may honestly believe that Allardyce is the best chance we have. Obviously I do not agree with you, but intended no slight to The Albion supporters who do. I rather clumsily perhaps, meant to show that whilst 'Big Sam' is his own biggest fan, I do not hold the same view, and hope for a better longer term option if one can be found.
Thanks Wodenson. Completely respect your opinion too.
We’re all Albion fans first - please let’s not divide and label ourselves into warring “camps†over differing opinions about individuals.
We all love our club and that’s the bottom line. It’s why we care and unites us far more than any opinions. As has been said before “unity is strength.â€
The Albion will be here long after Allardyce and everyone else has gone - and so will we as fans. Let’s never forget that. Support for Albion first; opinions about Albion second but given respect by remembering we all want the same thing - the very best for our wonderful club.
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I must confess that I've been won over by Allardyce. Nothing like Pulisball and he's proved that he and Sammy Lee can organise a competent and reasonably talented squad - which was short of quality when he arrived. He has clearly instilled belief in the players and we will possibly rue not getting the new players in 3 weeks earlier at the start of the window as I'm convinced we would now be 4 or 5 points better off right now.
He didn't land the England job by being a poor coach. He's well known for having been ahead of the game re sports science. He looks like he's still got what it takes.
I am far more willing than I was 3 months ago to see him oversee our attempt to get back up next season (assuming we go down!).
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The performance against Chelsea will go down in legend as one of our best in the Premier league era ! Whatever happens throughout the rest of the season , we could do far far worse than stick with Big Sam for next season . Do supporters really want a new manager next season who will reinstate our 2 central midfielder’s who so lamentably failed prior to the January transfer window ?
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Any manager would be justified in omitting Grant and Diangana who've both been way off the mark when played.
Abolishing the disastrous Livermore/Sawyers midfield is something I'm grateful Alardyce.
did.
Overall Allardyce gets more things right than wrong and have fans forgot how mundane pulisball was when comparing the two managers.
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I already said before Allardyce could've signed a young energetic Championship / League 1 midfielder in early January and it would've been an upgrade on Livermore. It would've been a pittance and we still could've got Yoksulu.
Livermore's appalling lack of mobility cost us time and again in the 1st half of this season.
We have one of those in Gallagher , what we needed was Okay and ANM but a lot earlier . I doubt there was enough money in the pot for what you suggest anyway .
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Not a fan of Allardyce but I don’t think he is anywhere near as bad as Pulis. I’d say that in the last 4-5 games or so we’ve seen a move to more of a passing style. In all honesty I’d rather he left at the end of the season yet I do believe he offers us a great chance of getting back up. I guess it depends on who the alternatives might be.
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I already said before Allardyce could've signed a young energetic Championship / League 1 midfielder in early January and it would've been an upgrade on Livermore. It would've been a pittance and we still could've got Yoksulu.
Livermore's appalling lack of mobility cost us time and again in the 1st half of this season.
So you’re criticising Allardyce for playing Livermore and Sawyers but concede there were no other options other than using the transfer window - which the club then did.
I’m also intrigued as to which young, energetic midfielder in the championship/league one player was available given our meagre budget.
Thankfully we opted against signing a Duracell bunny and opted for quality instead.
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So you’re criticising Allardyce for playing Livermore and Sawyers but concede there were no other options other than using the transfer window - which the club then did.
I’m also intrigued as to which young, energetic midfielder in the championship/league one player was available given our meagre budget.
Thankfully we opted against signing a Duracell bunny and opted for quality instead.
Allardyce was too slow to realise that Livermore / Sawyers were a disaster. The performances against AV, Leeds, Arsenal were embarrassing. Sam was like a rabbit in the headlights as to the merits of the squad.
No one knows if we could've forked out £500,000 (+low wages) for a more athletic midfielder in early January?
What I am doing is questioning Sam Allardyce's judgement to continue picking Livermore through January and the ridiculous selection of Robson Kanu over the last 2 months or so.
Livermore & Robson Kanu = league 1 standard.
We are lauding SA for the stunning performance at Stamford Bridge but what about the mistakes?
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Allardyce was too slow to realise that Livermore / Sawyers were a disaster. The performances against AV, Leeds, Arsenal were embarrassing. Sam was like a rabbit in the headlights as to the merits of the squad.
No one knows if we could've forked out £500,000 (+low wages) for a more athletic midfielder in early January?
What I am doing is questioning Sam Allardyce's judgement to continue picking Livermore through January and the ridiculous selection of Robson Kanu over the last 2 months or so.
Livermore & Robson Kanu = league 1 standard.
We are lauding SA for the stunning performance at Stamford Bridge but what about the mistakes?
1. How many league 1 midfielders are there that would be good enough to turn around a premierleague team?
2. Why would a league 1 team let him go for £500k if he was that good?
3. If there is one about and we didn’t go for him why has no one also gone for him?
Seems a bit strange that you seem so convinced that there are just a few cheap players knocking about in league 1 that would be good enough to change the fortunes of a premierleague team
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Who were we going to pick then Greg until Okay and AMN signed?
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Allardyce was too slow to realise that Livermore / Sawyers were a disaster. The performances against AV, Leeds, Arsenal were embarrassing. Sam was like a rabbit in the headlights as to the merits of the squad.
No one knows if we could've forked out £500,000 (+low wages) for a more athletic midfielder in early January?
What I am doing is questioning Sam Allardyce's judgement to continue picking Livermore through January and the ridiculous selection of Robson Kanu over the last 2 months or so.
Livermore & Robson Kanu = league 1 standard.
We are lauding SA for the stunning performance at Stamford Bridge but what about the mistakes?
He didnt make a mistake in picking Livermore and Sawyers though. He had no choice, who else was there? Even Sam Field was down with Covid at the time if I remember correctly, so we were left with who?
Allardyce may identify what players he wants but it isnt down to him to get them in Dowling and Ian Pearce are more culpable in that respect, blame them for the timing of signings.
Fact remains Allardyce had no chance at all with the initial squad he had and after one measly transfer window where weve brought in a couple of loan signings we look a far, far better team.
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So you’re criticising Allardyce for playing Livermore and Sawyers but concede there were no other options other than using the transfer window - which the club then did.
He could have just played Gallagher and Krov together. Would plainly have been a better option than Livermore and Sawyers. His management during his initial two months in charge was very poor, we went backwards at a rate of knots, which we couldn't afford to do. Immediately prior to his arrival we had been difficult to play against and we're not letting in many. Then we started getting wrecked week-in week-out and went on a disastrous run of results. Some of that was his fault with his selections and tactics and some of it down to injuries, if you recall we were without Townsend and Bartley.
He's done well to improve the team in January and to re-install more of a backbone into them but we needed it sooner. We now have a nice balance between the defensive resilience from our tactics and players like Okay sitting in front of the back four and the technical quality of Pereira, Robinson combined with the physicality of Diagna. What I liked about our game at Chelsea was you could see the determination of the players to defend but also their spark that Bilic introduced to play attacking incisive football. It was nice to see the team take the handbrake off and express themselves. It still pains me that we didn't take that approach against Newcastle and Palace.
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So you’re criticising Allardyce for playing Livermore and Sawyers but concede there were no other options other than using the transfer window - which the club then did.
I’m also intrigued as to which young, energetic midfielder in the championship/league one player was available given our meagre budget.
Thankfully we opted against signing a Duracell bunny and opted for quality instead.
There was the option of using Field instead of persisting with Sawyers as a defensive midfielder, that also applies to Bilic who was the one who thought he could turn a player who's never had a tackle in him into a dm.
The club themselves are also culpable as we knew what we needed and in typical Albion style we left it instead of having players ready as soon as January came with the exception of Snodgrass.
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Allardyce was too slow to realise that Livermore / Sawyers were a disaster. The performances against AV, Leeds, Arsenal were embarrassing. Sam was like a rabbit in the headlights as to the merits of the squad.
No one knows if we could've forked out £500,000 (+low wages) for a more athletic midfielder in early January?
What I am doing is questioning Sam Allardyce's judgement to continue picking Livermore through January and the ridiculous selection of Robson Kanu over the last 2 months or so.
Livermore & Robson Kanu = league 1 standard.
We are lauding SA for the stunning performance at Stamford Bridge but what about the mistakes?
You’re accusing him of being too slow to realise yet he was briefing the media in December - on the day of his appointment - that we would need to utilise the transfer window to improve the squad
How much quicker do you want him to be?
There were articles on the 1st January where he is stated as saying we needed to improve the spine of the team with central midfield being a priority.
We were linked with signing Choudhury on the 5th January until Leicester pulled the plug. There was also the admittance that Brexit had scuppered some of our targets due to work permit issues.
To suggest that Allardyce was not aware of the issue or did nothing to address the issue is a lazy stick to beat him with. It was made quite clear what he thought the issues were.
The criticism of his continued selection of HRK is correct given the alternatives that were available. Unlike the central of midfield were there were no alternative options.
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There was the option of using Field instead of persisting with Sawyers as a defensive midfielder, that also applies to Bilic who was the one who thought he could turn a player who's never had a tackle in him into a dm.
The club themselves are also culpable as we knew what we needed and in typical Albion style we left it instead of having players ready as soon as January came with the exception of Snodgrass.
Sam Field picked up an injury in October 2020 and did not return until the week we beat Wolves which was the 16th January.
He was available for two matches before being struck down with illness.
That then took him to the end of January where he was shipped out to QPR and didn’t feature in his first two games for them either.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sam-field/leistungsdaten/spieler/387331
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What we needed in early January was more energy in the midfield to complement the attacking options we had.
Instead we had 2 snails in Livermore and Sawyers that did nothing to protect the defence / keeper.
An incoming Champ / League 1 midfielder may have lacked a little skill/composure at EPL level but we just needed someone to put their foot in and at least keep up with play.
Furthermore, the mistake of using HRK over Robinson is absolutely glaring. I'm hard pressed to think of any recent WBA Manager doing anything like this.
If Allardyce plays our best team in the remaining 8 fixtures and we go out to Win instead of Draw then we can park it and move on.
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Sam can't do the deals himself though. If the board cant get the deals done how is that Sams fault???
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Sam can't do the deals himself though. If the board cant get the deals done how is that Sams fault???
I've just explained - Robson Kanu and Livermore, need I say more?
That is judgement from the Manager.
Doesn't it grate on you that in the aftermath of Chelsea, we are bemoaning the fact the best team wasn't selected for several fixtures beforehand?
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Bilić played HRK all last season and regularly used him from the bench this season.
Livermore is club captain, no other manager ever had the balls to drop him. Sam has done, and hopefully it expedites his exit from the club.
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Until Chelsea game Allardyce has used HRK in preference to Robinson, I suspect this week was different in light of what went on with Wales fortunately Robinson played well so HRK should remain on the naughty step .
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Last season was in the Championship which makes a huge difference. HRK was used this season by Bilic extremely sparingly.
Why has HRK been utilised in the last 2 months with Diagne signed and further options in Diangana and Robinson?
It's indefensiveable.
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As I think I've made clear, I'm not a fan of the man, but credit where it is due. Saturday was a superb performance that had me pinching myself.
I wonder if we approached the game in the way we did because he knows draws are no good to us now? We have to start winning games, and have reached the point where we may as well throw the kitchen sink at it (not that we were quite so gung-ho).
I'm still on the fence about whether I'd want him longer-term, but if we can continue to play well and get results, I can't argue. Also, the other names mentioned are distinctly underwhelming.
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Ever felt you are going around in circles?
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GREGMT - I don't know what you aren't getting that Liam is saying, he's even acknowledged that picking HRK is Allardyce's fault.
I suspect he very much wanted to get players through the door from Jan 1st like all of us wanted to see, but that's not his job.
The idea here of buying an untalented but fast/pressing Championship/lower league midfielder is beyond me. One that can do a job in a PL team, that an EFL team is willing to sell but for hardly any money and that won't have a place in the team in a few weeks from signing? Not sure that player exists?!
I really truly believe that the blame lies at the feet of whoever was in charge of summer recruitment, that's why we were lumbered with Sawyers and Livermore.
Ever felt you are going around in circles?
YES
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Sam Field picked up an injury in October 2020 and did not return until the week we beat Wolves which was the 16th January.
He was available for two matches before being struck down with illness.
That then took him to the end of January where he was shipped out to QPR and didn’t feature in his first two games for them either.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/sam-field/leistungsdaten/spieler/387331
So we are told but he seemed to fit in quick enough at QPR, yeah he waited 2 games which given his lack of match fitness is understandable but if he was available for two games why was he not included?
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I've just explained - Robson Kanu and Livermore, need I say more?
That is judgement from the Manager.
Doesn't it grate on you that in the aftermath of Chelsea, we are bemoaning the fact the best team wasn't selected for several fixtures beforehand?
HRK and Livermore were selected frequntly under Bilic. Perhaps they were the best we had at the time.
No excuses for picking HRK to come on every week i agree there but the CM was dire last season, dire this season and Bilic did nothing in 3 windows to fix. 2 when he knew it wasnt working.
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HRK and Livermore were selected frequntly under Bilic. Perhaps they were the best we had at the time.
No excuses for picking HRK to come on every week i agree there but the CM was dire last season, dire this season and Bilic did nothing in 3 windows to fix. 2 when he knew it wasnt working.
The remit last season was for Bilic to get promoted, which he did with 83pts. Any playing of Livermore / HRK was done in the DIVISION BELOW. It is irrelevant to the increased demands of this season.
You can argue the picking of HRK in the last 2 months has denied us a realistic chance to stay up.
Allardyce stumbled on the correct formula at Molispew when Robinson earned 2 penalties. Why he ditched him following that game is anyone's guess?
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The remit last season was for Bilic to get promoted, which he did with 83pts. Any playing of Livermore / HRK was done in the DIVISION BELOW. It is irrelevant to the increased demands of this season.
You can argue the picking of HRK in the last 2 months has denied us a realistic chance to stay up.
Allardyce stumbled on the correct formula at Molispew when Robinson earned 2 penalties. Why he ditched him following that game is anyone's guess?
You can argue the retaining of last seasons midfield cost us a lot more than HRK coming on as sub. Bilic demanded it though.
Bilic also found a better formula and then turned his back on it after Brighton 2nd half. They are both guilty of that.
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So we are told but he seemed to fit in quick enough at QPR, yeah he waited 2 games which given his lack of match fitness is understandable but if he was available for two games why was he not included?
Gew an ask Big Sam not me ;D
I would assume that given we had beat Wolves that Sam didn’t want to change a winning side. We played well against West Ham as well in fairness.
I agree with the point that Field has been mismanaged but there are others I hold responsible for that..
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Gew an ask Big Sam not me ;D
I would assume that given we had beat Wolves that Sam didn’t want to change a winning side. We played well against West Ham as well in fairness.
I agree with the point that Field has been mismanaged but there are others I hold responsible for that..
I don't even think Sam was a party to any decision about Field. I think it's been obvious his face doesn't fit for a while, and I think he would have found himself moved out regardless of who came in as manager.
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You can argue the retaining of last seasons midfield cost us a lot more than HRK coming on as sub. Bilic demanded it though.
Bilic also found a better formula and then turned his back on it after Brighton 2nd half. They are both guilty of that.
Bilic had a short time span to strengthen for the EPL campaign. Remember we got promoted on last day 22/7/20, the new season was underway in less than 2 months. This is shorter than in any usual season.
Bilic made mistakes for sure, just highlighting that the HRK situation is different level!!!
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Bilic had a short time span to strengthen for the EPL campaign. Remember we got promoted on last day 22/7/20, the new season was underway in less than 2 months. This is shorter than in any usual season.
Bilic made mistakes for sure, just highlighting that the HRK situation is different level!!!
No argument on the HRK issue at all.
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Anyway, as it's the Sam Allardyce thread I thought I'd mention something about Sam Allardyce. Great goal celebrations from the big man yesterday, I hope these met with everyone's satisfaction. BOING BOING.
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Anyway, as it's the Sam Allardyce thread I thought I'd mention something about Sam Allardyce. Great goal celebrations from the big man yesterday, I hope these met with everyone's satisfaction. BOING BOING.
Indeed! Some naughty swear words thrown about too in celebration. Loved it.
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Anyway, as it's the Sam Allardyce thread I thought I'd mention something about Sam Allardyce. Great goal celebrations from the big man yesterday, I hope these met with everyone's satisfaction. BOING BOING.
Absolutely, try telling me he doesn't care......
[Someone will, I know!]
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Absolutely, try telling me he doesn't care......
[Someone will, I know!]
Only cares about his bonus....
there you go, is that satisfactory ?? Your welcome.
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Gew an ask Big Sam not me ;D
I would assume that given we had beat Wolves that Sam didn’t want to change a winning side. We played well against West Ham as well in fairness.
I agree with the point that Field has been mismanaged but there are others I hold responsible for that..
Pardew started it when he destroyed his confidence and its snowballed but given the midfield we'd been putting out until Okay arrived its a disgrace Field wasn't given any game time (when fit), the kid can tackle.
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Only cares about his bonus....
there you go, is that satisfactory ?? Your welcome.
Good effort I guess....expecting weapons grade from others :)
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Just hope big Sam gives Robinson some game time on that right side he gives us so much more than any other, and he looks in blinding form.
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Just hope big Sam gives Robinson some game time on that right side he gives us so much more than any other, and he looks in blinding form.
Thought it was bad when he was being subbed for HRK whilst playing well earlier in the season. Daft.
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Bilić played HRK all last season and regularly used him from the bench this season. Livermore is club captain, no other manager ever had the balls to drop him. Sam has done, and hopefully it expedites his exit from the club.
Livermore was dropped under the previous coaching staff as well, although not as much as I would have liked. Bilic is the only manager who got a tune out of HRK and actually made him look decent for a spell, albeit in the championship. For that feat alone Bilic deserved the LMA award last year! As for Allardyce subbing HRK on during must-win Premiership games when we needed a goal ahead of Robinson, Diangana, Grant and the tea lady, that was no less than gross professional negligence. I'd like to see Livermore moved on as well but I think that will be difficult as like Gibbs he's old, not very good and earning more money than he can elsewhere, so the onus will be on him to want to play football rather than pocket his pay cheque if he is to be transferred.
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Why anyone would want to see Grant given a go given his performances and goal record since he arrived is beyond me ! Look at the goals total and HRK has scored more goals this season ( albeit in the Cup ) .
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Livermore was dropped under the previous coaching staff as well, although not as much as I would have liked. Bilic is the only manager who got a tune out of HRK and actually made him look decent for a spell, albeit in the championship. For that feat alone Bilic deserved the LMA award last year! As for Allardyce subbing HRK on during must-win Premiership games when we needed a goal ahead of Robinson, Diangana, Grant and the tea lady, that was no less than gross professional negligence. I'd like to see Livermore moved on as well but I think that will be difficult as like Gibbs he's old, not very good and earning more money than he can elsewhere, so the onus will be on him to want to play football rather than pocket his pay cheque if he is to be transferred.
I'd argue it was Pereira who made him look decent.
Don't understand Sam using him off the bench in recent months, as others have said. Crazy.
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As I think I've made clear, I'm not a fan of the man, but credit where it is due. Saturday was a superb performance that had me pinching myself.
I wonder if we approached the game in the way we did because he knows draws are no good to us now? We have to start winning games, and have reached the point where we may as well throw the kitchen sink at it (not that we were quite so gung-ho).
I'm still on the fence about whether I'd want him longer-term, but if we can continue to play well and get results, I can't argue. Also, the other names mentioned are distinctly underwhelming.
Do you belive we approached it differently?
We were 1-0 down quite early and then they went to 10 men.
Despite all the plaudits for a job well done, I’m not sure anyone thinks the result would have been the same with 11 vs 11.
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Do you belive we approached it differently?
We were 1-0 down quite early and then they went to 10 men.
Despite all the plaudits for a job well done, I’m not sure anyone thinks the result would have been the same with 11 vs 11.
The Chelsea fans don't see it that way, of all the talk I have read on their sites not one has said that they would have beaten us with 11 men on the pitch.
Did you see anything in that Chelsea team that suggested Thiago was an absolute key player that glued them all together? Don't forget he had not played for 10 games.
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Not sure what to think about Sam at the moment, especillay with these takeover rumours. Assuming wego down, if he actually wants to stay for the right reasons for us and for him, then I will be happy, but the worst case is him staying on due to our inertia and him wanting a pension boost, then we could be in a real mess by Xmas next season.
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Does Allardyce’s inactivity on the touch line concern anyone?
Most managers or coaches prowl their touch line area geeing up their players whereby all we see is Allardyce lounging in an armchair barely contributing to the encouragement of the team and only raising a smile when we score. So different to Bilić and previous managers/coaches.
It’s as though he’s just biding his time until he’s given his next pay packet.
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He looked pretty animated celebrating Saturday's goals to me, besides he's got Little Sam to prowl the touchline for him.
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Does Allardyce’s inactivity on the touch line concern anyone?
Most managers or coaches prowl their touch line area geeing up their players whereby all we see is Allardyce lounging in an armchair barely contributing to the encouragement of the team and only raising a smile when we score. So different to Bilić and previous managers/coaches.
It’s as though he’s just biding his time until he’s given his next pay packet.
He’s 66 and has had heart issues and is almost certainly under doctor’s orders not to get too animated. Leave the theatrics to “little Samâ€
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apparently he doesn't coach the team,
apparently he cannot motivate via animation
so I would contend that he is a passive motivator and strategist, influencer of recruitment?
since his arrival
Squad motivated ?
Strategic master classes ?
Recruitment ?
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He’s 66 and has had heart issues and is almost certainly under doctor’s orders not to get too animated. Leave the theatrics to “little Samâ€
Do you know what heart issues Sam has?
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Do you know what heart issues Sam has?
Well documented from both 2009 and 2019
https://www.google.gg/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sam-allardyce-how-doctors-saved-3368143.amp
https://www.google.gg/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1160081/sam-allardyce-latest-premier-league-heart-attack-signs-symptoms-strictly-come-dancing/amp
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Does Allardyce’s inactivity on the touch line concern anyone?
Most managers or coaches prowl their touch line area geeing up their players whereby all we see is Allardyce lounging in an armchair barely contributing to the encouragement of the team and only raising a smile when we score. So different to Bilić and previous managers/coaches.
It’s as though he’s just biding his time until he’s given his next pay packet.
Saw couple of good posts about this on Twitter yesterday. Possibly on one of CLs threads.
Anyway touchline antics look good to fans but the players are generally indifferent.
Enthusiasm only gets you so far (see Slav).
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Saw couple of good posts about this on Twitter yesterday. Possibly on one of CLs threads.
Anyway touchline antics look good to fans but the players are generally indifferent.
Enthusiasm only gets you so far (see Slav).
Talking of Twitter I see Adrian Goldberg retweeted your comment re Pereira. How long before you make an appearance on the Liquidator podcast? You'd have to change your username to Radio Jacko, don't know what you'd do for their listening figures mind ;D .
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Talking of Twitter I see Adrian Goldberg retweeted your comment re Pereira. How long before you make an appearance on the Liquidator podcast? You'd have to change your username to Radio Jacko, don't know what you'd do for their listening figures mind ;D .
Do you know what, I've never listened to it mate.
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Do you know what, I've never listened to it mate.
Go on gerrin! You post some **** but your all right! 8)
I think Mr Allardyce is just playing it cool with his heath issue.
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I have a long list of things I don't like about Allardyce but his demeanor on the touchline is not one of them. I just don't get why fans and sometimes commentators set any store by what the coach is like in the dugout. I honestly could not care less. If there are any Directors of football on TV reading this post in general a few less shots of coaches on the sidelines would be very welcome you may as well show me a close up of a passing Pigeon.
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Go on gerrin! You post some s**t but your all right! 8)
I think Mr Allardyce is just playing it cool with his heath issue.
That med me loff.
This past year or so the forum's never been more important... and it's good to disagree as well as agree of course. What I certainly agree with is 'passion shown by manager/ coach'. Slaven bless him was full of passion but it didn't get us very far once we were in the nosebleed league.
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He’s 66 and has had heart issues and is almost certainly under doctor’s orders not to get too animated. Leave the theatrics to “little Samâ€
Dr Evil and his mini-Me. Is Big Sam stroking a white cat in the dugout?
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Dr Evil and his mini-Me. Is Big Sam stroking a white cat in the dugout?
Can't imagine Sammy Lee being anyone's pussy(cat), certainly can't picture anyone wanting to stroke him either :-X .
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Can't imagine Sammy Lee being anyone's pussy(cat), certainly can't picture anyone wanting to stroke him either :-X .
He does look a bit feral!
The likes of Pulis and Megson were shouting and balling during the warm up, yet Ozzie was very stoic. Both ways can work and fail in equal measure, yet it rarely affects the outcome.
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I used to believe that the touchline is not always the best place from which a manager should view the game. A higher viewpoint gives a much clearer idea of movement and pattern of play. Maybe with the tech stuff and multiple camera views it's less so now but sometimes sitting quietly in the stands instead of at ground level can have advantages. Jumping up and down and running around the technical area sort of shows an emotional side, or real excitement, and may be a safety valve for some, but certainly for others it will be simply an attempt at crowd pleasing. I'm not against somebody, (of ours, not our opponents) getting in the ears of officialdom though, and this is best attempted from the touchline.
Despite all my still held reservations, I prefer the more dignified attitude with a vocal energetic assistant as espoused by the Allardyce Lee combo, and I did enjoy Mr Allardyce's goal celebrations against Chelsea.
TV coverage consistently showing touchline staff I find most irritating. I want to watch what is happening on the pitch even if the game has stopped, not some little gum chewing oik like Parker or one of the foreign mercenary 'messiahs' smirking for the camera.
Oh and even Big Sam ain't exactly too photogenic is he?
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Like it or not, the managers have a high profile in the premier league soap opera...multiple press conferences etc. A case can be made that it's more interesting seeing some footage of dugout activity rather than players time wasting or exaggerating injuries...or the 8th different TV angle of the same event etc.
I remember Allardyce being part of some stress study on managers years ago. His heart rate reached dangerous levels during matches. He has had a heart issue I believe so a more relaxed approach is probably sensible....though he still has the odd yell when something irritates him.
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I have a long list of things I don't like about Allardyce but his demeanor on the touchline is not one of them. I just don't get why fans and sometimes commentators set any store by what the coach is like in the dugout. I honestly could not care less. If there are any Directors of football on TV reading this post in general a few less shots of coaches on the sidelines would be very welcome you may as well show me a close up of a passing Pigeon.
When fans come back, id rather they panned to.......intresting people in the crowd. Unless sam is using terrible words or rude hand geastures, the camera shouldnt be on him.
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I used to believe that the touchline is not always the best place from which a manager should view the game. A higher viewpoint gives a much clearer idea of movement and pattern of play. Maybe with the tech stuff and multiple camera views it's less so now but sometimes sitting quietly in the stands instead of at ground level can have advantages. Jumping up and down and running around the technical area sort of shows an emotional side, or real excitement, and may be a safety valve for some, but certainly for others it will be simply an attempt at crowd pleasing. I'm not against somebody, (of ours, not our opponents) getting in the ears of officialdom though, and this is best attempted from the touchline.
Despite all my still held reservations, I prefer the more dignified attitude with a vocal energetic assistant as espoused by the Allardyce Lee combo, and I did enjoy Mr Allardyce's goal celebrations against Chelsea.
TV coverage consistently showing touchline staff I find most irritating. I want to watch what is happening on the pitch even if the game has stopped, not some little gum chewing oik like Parker or one of the foreign mercenary 'messiahs' smirking for the camera.
Oh and even Big Sam ain't exactly too photogenic is he?
I've always said this. Whenever I've sat down the bottom I've found it a very strange angle to view a game. Much better overview from higher up. Strange no-one's even tried it.
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Like it or not, the managers have a high profile in the premier league soap opera...multiple press conferences etc. A case can be made that it's more interesting seeing some footage of dugout activity rather than players time wasting or exaggerating injuries...or the 8th different TV angle of the same event etc.
I remember Allardyce being part of some stress study on managers years ago. His heart rate reached dangerous levels during matches. He has had a heart issue I believe so a more relaxed approach is probably sensible....though he still has the odd yell when something irritates him.
I'm not sure how he takes a more relaxed approach, being excitable & enthusiastic is part of a person's make up.
If SA has been responsible for prepping a team for a match, if difficult to see how he distances himself from the action.
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Like it or not, the managers have a high profile in the premier league soap opera...multiple press conferences etc. A case can be made that it's more interesting seeing some footage of dugout activity rather than players time wasting or exaggerating injuries...or the 8th different TV angle of the same event etc.
I remember Allardyce being part of some stress study on managers years ago. His heart rate reached dangerous levels during matches. He has had a heart issue I believe so a more relaxed approach is probably sensible....though he still has the odd yell when something irritates him.
From memory he was wired up so that they could measure his stress levels. His BP flew through the roof and as a result he had medical treatment for this as he was completely unaware of the potential serious health issues he had.
His demeanour at the side of the pitch does not bother me in the slightest and I am surprised so many are commenting on it. 'Mini me' does all the shouting for him anyway. If we can play like we did last week then he can have a kip as far as I am concerned.
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He can sit there picking his nose and swilling pints of gravy for all I care so long as we win.
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He can sit there picking his nose and swilling pints of gravy for all I care so long as we win.
And if we win he should be forced to do it every match until we lose. Might not be long, but it might just be what we need to get us over the line SmethDan. May I nominate your good self as Senior Observer to ensue compliance.
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The observers book of Gravy swillers,
an exclusive and rare edition!
I have a mate with a huge collection of observers books (seriously). I'll ask him about this one! :o
Did you know that there is infact an "Observer's Book of Observer's Books"
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That med me loff.
This past year or so the forum's never been more important... and it's good to disagree as well as agree of course. What I certainly agree with is 'passion shown by manager/ coach'. Slaven bless him was full of passion but it didn't get us very far once we were in the nosebleed league.
Good to add a bit of humour now and again mate!
In my view to be successful you need to know what you are doing not so much aspire to know what you are doing.
When you are slugging it out in the position we have been in the las 10/12 years or so.
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I'm not sure how he takes a more relaxed approach, being excitable & enthusiastic is part of a person's make up.
If SA has been responsible for prepping a team for a match, if difficult to see how he distances himself from the action.
I'm pretty sure he's used sports psychologists in his management methods in the past. I'd agree it's not always easy to curb your natural instincts, but maybe he sits there sometimes doing breathing exercises to keep his blood pressure and heart rate down. There's a fair amount of evidence to show such things can have a beneficial effect on stress levels.
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Isn't little Sam (Lee) the one who will be consistently more animated and involved on the touch-line during the games anyway.
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How managers behave on the sideline is so over blown and over analyzed. You sit and are calm, it means you don’t care or don’t know what to do. If you run around like crazy it means you show passion and really care. You could list managers over the years in both camps. What you’ll find is some are successful and some aren’t. The managers demeanour doesn’t bother me, what bothers me is results...
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I don't recall Roy Hodgson's dug-out demeanour receiving, well any scrutiny.
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I don't recall Roy Hodgson's dug-out demeanour receiving, well any scrutiny.
Wasn't very pleasant when he ripped the black armband off in anger.
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I don't recall Roy Hodgson's dug-out demeanour receiving, well any scrutiny.
remember him head butting the dug out in frustration, really funny
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remember him head butting the dug out in frustration, really funny
Roy was a canny character...check out this video he wasn't to be crossed at times!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8y6RjLVYts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8y6RjLVYts)
I'm sure Sam has this side to him too ;D
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I did really love Roy as our manager...
I've been a bit of a pendulum with Big Sam, didn't want him, warmed to him, changed my mind back... but that last result surely must say something of his formula and his delight was there for all to see. Fingers crossed that we see this season out with some dignity.
Then the board need to make some firm decisions and for once not muck about or knee jerk. As they should have with Bilic, back him fully to get us back up or move on and sharpish.
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Roy was a canny character...check out this video he wasn't to be crossed at times!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8y6RjLVYts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8y6RjLVYts)
I'm sure Sam has this side to him too ;D
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not seen that before, excellent, well done Roy.
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not seen that before, excellent, well done Roy.
I agree. He wasn’t allowed to answer a question. We’d all be ****** off in that situation.
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I still love Roy; tons of character and integrity. He took the only job I'd forgive him for when he left, shame it wasn't his best decision.
If Big Sam stays next season I think forum opinion might become less polarised on him.
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And back to Big Sam now folks..
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And back to Big Sam now folks..
I did try to steer it back.... ;)
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I did try to steer it back.... ;)
You did. :D
For what it’s worth I don’t agree. When fan bases are polarised their views are firmly entrenched and I don’t see either giving much headway on the argument.
I think we have to accept that he is going to divide the fan base regardless of what he does or doesn’t achieve here.
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As long as he picks the "right" team on Monday ( lets face it, we all know the basis of the "right" team for Monday after what happened at Chelsea), then he will win some more doubters around, I feel.
If he goes back to the "must not lose" team, then a chunk more will turn against him. A draw really is no use really, with Leicester away next.
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Has to play Robinson on that performance with Pereira a floating number 10, Phillips did ok last week and was unlucky with shot that rebounded off bar. That said is there a possibility of getting Gallagher back into side by replacing Mat just for his legs, I'd be fine with that switch.
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Has to play Robinson on that performance with Pereira a floating number 10, Phillips did ok last week and was unlucky with shot that rebounded off bar. That said is there a possibility of getting Gallagher back into side by replacing Mat just for his legs, I'd be fine with that switch.
Not an easy decision for him re the team, as much as I want Robinson in I don't want him shunted out to the left wing. He needs to be in a thee supporting Diagna and Pereira. Which is bold.
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As long as he picks the "right" team on Monday ( lets face it, we all know the basis of the "right" team for Monday after what happened at Chelsea), then he will win some more doubters around, I feel.........
I don't, and if it does it will only be a few. Very few. The rest will continue along the lines of 'why did it take such a supposedly brilliant tactician so long to see......' etc. ad nauseam.
Allardyce could give some of our supporters the winning ticket for a Euro Lottery rollover and it would be a case of 'why didn't he do it sooner?' or 'it feels filthy but I suppose a win's a win'.
You know it, I know it, we all know it. That's the thing about football forums. Know all's everywhere...... ;D .
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I am not an Allardyce fan. However if he picks the 'right team' and we have all been espousing something similar to the finishing team at Chelsea for a long time, then I might take a step toward acceptance. If by some miracle he does enough to keep us up, and this will require a lot of good luck, as well as good performances. If we are relegated, and if he then also shows his enthusiasm for the job, manages to keep our best outfield players, and devises a system that plays our best players in their best positions, I might - just might, be prepared to accept him for next season. I do think he is knowledgeable and capable, I know he is experienced and can be innovative. I have just never liked the man, but if he is doing well by West Bromwich Albion, then I will support the man wholeheartedly, whilst he is our manager/head coach. COYB
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If...... the longest two letter word in the English language.
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If...... the longest two letter word in the English language.
Indeed my friend, the longest and the tallest and the broadest. The If's I used are all very big ones.
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Sam: “The people who would lose their jobs are what the players are responsible for — not just their own livelihood but other people’s livelihoods."
You too Sam, you're responsible too. We were 3 pts from safety when you arrived.
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Sam: “The people who would lose their jobs are what the players are responsible for — not just their own livelihood but other people’s livelihoods."
You too Sam, you're responsible too. We were 3 pts from safety when you arrived.
Sam is NOT responsible, no one can perform miracles and I don't believe there is one manager in world football that wouldve kept us up with the squad prior to the January window.
Yes it's only four players Sam brought in but the spine of our team was addressed and particularly our abysmal (and yes I stand by the word abysmal) midfield that couldn't even dominate games in the Championship. Yokuslu alone is better than Livermore and Sawyers combined.
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At the time yes but we would certainly have fallen further behind. No I cant prove that but I think it's a huge leap of faith to believe otherwise.
Sam is NOT responsible, no one can perform miracles and I don't believe there is one manager in world football that wouldve kept us up with the squad prior to the January window.
Yes it's only four players Sam brought in but the spine of our team was addressed and particularly our abysmal (and yes I stand by the word abysmal) midfield that couldn't even dominate games in the Championship. Yokuslu alone is better than Livermore and Sawyers combined.
I think they look fitter both mentally and physically too .
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Sam is NOT responsible, no one can perform miracles and I don't believe there is one manager in world football that wouldve kept us up with the squad prior to the January window.
Yes it's only four players Sam brought in but the spine of our team was addressed and particularly our abysmal (and yes I stand by the word abysmal) midfield that couldn't even dominate games in the Championship. Yokuslu alone is better than Livermore and Sawyers combined.
It is a fact that Allardyce has presided over some, not just one mind, of the heaviest defeats inflicted upon us in many a year. Added to this is his insistence on playing a style which marginalises our most creative and effective attacking threat. Nobody knows for sure the outcomes had Allardyce not been brought in, it is all conjecture influenced by personal preferences, but for me the balance of proof suggests that Allardyce, among others should indeed bear some responsibility for the outcomes of this season
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Time in passing shocker... :o
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I do think our best performance for a couple of years was the one against Chelsea. I just hope we approach the game tonight the same way even though we start 11v11.
And enjoy the pub, I'm not risking it yet, I feel like it'll be mayhem!
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all parties involved have to take some responsibility as to why we are going down, not just one individual
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All posts comparing Allardyce and Bilic have been removed as there have been 3 requests made by the admin/mod team asking posters not to do this.
There has also been a suggestion to make a new topic for those of you that want to compare the two.
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Can't we save the blame game until we are actually relegated?
Because, make no bones about it, if we stay up, Allardyce will be lauded a hero of epic proportions, so it will be the mootest of moot points in the history of mootness..
If he doesn't, then we dissect the season and ALL of it's protagonists and decide how we move forward.
In the meantime, it is matchday and we are still in with a shout so.... Come on You Baggies!!!!!
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
I would have to question the sanity of anyone who would want him gone right now.
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
If we can continue to play on the front foot then yes.
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A job well done tonight. Kudos to Sam Allardyce.
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Well done Sam, brought some belief and self-respect back to the players and the club. An appointment made far too late.
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Never thought I'd see the day but Allardyce has made a defender out of Bartley.
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First half outstanding should have been 4 up wasn't happy that we dropped off second half but your plan worked with a break away goal. Brought pride back to us fan's BOING BOING
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
No at no point would I ever want Allardyce and nothing has changed nor ever will. It is entirely personal.
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
These last 1.5 performances have been excellent but next season is a big rebuild. The players he's brought in to make a difference won't be here. We'll lose Pierera and can't see us keeping Diangana if Sam stays. So we'll have Sam but not the players that have improved us.
Too many questionable tactics and approaches that haven't yet been outweighed by us lucking into a set up against Chelsea. There was a glimmer of a poor approach in the second half, we need to keep on the front foot and if things go to plan next season we need to attack and score goals from the start. The championship is no place for teams who keep it tight at the back and try and nick goals.
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No at no point would I ever want Allardyce and nothing has changed nor ever will. It is entirely personal.
FairPlay to you actually saying it’s personal, there are too many people who don’t like him as a person but then try and exaggerate some bad decisions to prove a point
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FairPlay to you actually saying it’s personal, there are too many people who don’t like him as a person but then try and exaggerate some bad decisions to prove a point
Very true indeed. At least Standaman has confirmed his bias. I can respect that weirdly enough.
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FairPlay to you actually saying it’s personal, there are too many people who don’t like him as a person but then try and exaggerate some bad decisions to prove a point
Allardyce dropped a clanger playing Robson Kanu and leaving out Robinson. Nothing personal just been proved right.
Allardyce 10 out 10 for last 2 matches.
I am stating here and now I think we can beat everyone, the only match that scares me is Leeds away.
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Are we all in agreement that if we drop, we need to keep Sam now?
Not yet, no.
To change my mind after two (admittedly sensational) performances would be fickle in the extreme.
The reasons I've detailed already haven't changed. If he performs a miracle and keeps us up then he is the right man for next season, but a championship promotion push is different.
If anything, the last 2 games, where he has taken the handbrake off and showed what this side could have achieved in Feb and March with the right team selection, lends weight to the belief that Allardyce is too cautious.
Let's see how we feel after the relegation.
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No at no point would I ever want Allardyce and nothing has changed nor ever will. It is entirely personal.
Personal as in you know him and he as done something against you? Or just that you don't like what he as been accused of? Not being funny i just wandered because i have never met and don't know Sam Johnstone! But i just don't like him never have and never will. I said to my son tonight great save (penalty) but i still want him to bleep off.
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We've taken the hand brake off for the last 2 games, and got players forward in numbers. Before it looked like we were scared to commit players forward in case we were caught at the back. The players first half really looked on the same wavelength making little runs forward and getting the ball. Townsend really showing us what he can do linking with Pereira and Robinson. Phillips is back to his best. Some dangerous crosses and well anticipated goal. Think its the first time he's completed 90 minutes this season.
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Very true indeed. At least Standaman has confirmed his bias. I can respect that weirdly enough.
I am in the Allardyce is the anti-Christ camp, I hope that I am wrong but I still feel he is wrong for our club
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Allardyce dropped a clanger playing Robson Kanu and leaving out Robinson. Nothing personal just been proved right.
Allardyce 10 out 10 for last 2 matches.
I am stating here and now I think we can beat everyone, the only match that scares me is Leeds away.
Fair enough, I can see that and also feel it myself that maybe it has been lost in those 3 or 4 games against lower teams where a bit more about us we could have won.
Same time I also can see from Allardyce point of view that we were getting annihilated by teams when first come and leaking goals so can’t blame him too much for always putting the defence first.
Tough one but can see both sides
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You are only as good as your last game, so yes, i'm in.
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I am in the Allardyce is the anti-Christ camp, I hope that I am wrong but I still feel he is wrong for our club
I don't have a problem with people who are honest about their dislike of the man it's when they start chastising him for things that were wrong before he came here that gets my goat. Bloke ain't a time traveller.
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Only criticism I have of alladyce was it was too negative v newcastle. If he had played this team v them we would only be 5 points off now... for me he as stands has earned his crack at promotion if we go down
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Bloke has to stay just to keep Dowling in check with transfer window, oh and the scintillating football his team is now producing.
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I don't have a problem with people who are honest about their dislike of the man it's when they start chastising him for things that were wrong before he came here that gets my goat. Bloke ain't a time traveller.
Pity he didn’t fire the Delorean up earlier ::)
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Pity he didn’t fire the Delorean up earlier ::)
He's no Marty McFly!
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He's not impressed with the PL rule makers again. Said in his post match interview that he and Dean Smith were both mutually keen for WBA vs Villa to be brought forward to this weekend but they( the PL) refused the proposal. Now we have to play Leicester and Villa a few days later. Brought up the fact they did it before with Everton then Newcastle.
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I am in the Allardyce is the anti-Christ camp, I hope that I am wrong but I still feel he is wrong for our club
Anti-Christ camp? Really? I thought Stan disliked Sam for personal reasons.
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The football was great at times tonight, hopefully this puts an end to the lazy Pulis comparisons.
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The football was great at times tonight, hopefully this puts an end to the lazy Pulis comparisons.
I am happy to concede that he has taken the shackles off, too late, but at least he has , Pulis was incapable of that !
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The football was great at times tonight, hopefully this puts an end to the lazy Pulis comparisons.
That’s a very good point. As a guy who couldn’t stand Pulis’ football I am glad to concede that this guy is no Pulis.
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I personally don't want him to stay. That's not because I think he is a bad manager, I think he is effective but I think his general modus operandi is more negative than I like. I'd worry about what we would revert to next season without the loanees. We have seen a more positive approach but simply because our backs were firmly against the wall, who knows if we had been more positive sooner?
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I personally don't want him to stay. That's not because I think he is a bad manager, I think he is effective but I think his general modus operandi is more negative than I like. I'd worry about what we would revert to next season without the loanees. We have seen a more positive approach but simply because our backs were firmly against the wall, who knows if we had been more positive sooner?
We'd just have different loanees next season (we are allowed more in the Championship). For me it all depends on whether any manager is properly backed.
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If Big Sam stays I’d have a lot more confidence in having a decent season next time around . His points record since he arrived is now just under a point a game . If this had been replicated across the season it would probably have been just enough to keep us up . 38 x 0.944 = 35.84 points
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I disliked Pulis because of his football but over time I grew to dislike the man and the reasons I disliked the man are out in the public domain and I and everybody else can talk about those topics freely and providing we don't indulge in wild allegations, without fear of litigation.
With Allardyce it is more complex. I wish I hadn't said it was personal because I can't elaborate beyond it stems from his time at Bolton and I had no intention of being mysterious but that little bit of personal knowledge does underpin my dislike of him.
The next layer of my dislike for Allardyce is the whole "Big Sam" public persona. It grates with me it may be no more real than Ziggy Stardust or the Thin White Duke but it jars particularly when from time to time he bemoans his misfortune when he has spun his shtick into a multi million pound fortune. I will never use the phrase "Big Sam"
Finally let's talk about football. Less of a one trick pony than Pulis. Maybe but when his tactics basically boil down to the same thing for much of the time it is hard to tell.
We are giving him way too much credit for taking the handbrake off in the last two games when we had nothing to lose nor by this stage very much to win either. It is performative "look I'm not a long ball merchant" but you are when you being a timorous wee beastie trying to grind out wins in must win fixtures. Doing this now just makes everything else look worse.
Do I want him next year? That's an unequivocal no from me. I can make an argument based on football and I admit it might be as broad as it's long but with the rest of the baggage the football has to be 1970's Brazil just to get him to the starting line in my eyes and it ain't.
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I disliked Pulis because of his football but over time I grew to dislike the man and the reasons I disliked the man are out in the public domain and I and everybody else can talk about those topics freely and providing we don't indulge in wild allegations, without fear of litigation.
With Allardyce it is more complex. I wish I hadn't said it was personal because I can't elaborate beyond it stems from his time at Bolton and I had no intention of being mysterious but that little bit of personal knowledge does underpin my dislike of him.
The next layer of my dislike for Allardyce is the whole "Big Sam" public persona. It grates with me it may be no more real than Ziggy Stardust or the Thin White Duke but it jars particularly when from time to time he bemoans his misfortune when he has spun his shtick into a multi million pound fortune. I will never use the phrase "Big Sam"
Finally let's talk about football. Less of a one trick pony than Pulis. Maybe but when his tactics basically boil down to the same thing for much of the time it is hard to tell.
We are giving him way too much credit for taking the handbrake off in the last two games when we had nothing to lose nor by this stage very much to win either. It is performative "look I'm not a long ball merchant" but you are when you being a timorous wee beastie trying to grind out wins in must win fixtures. Doing this now just makes everything else look worse.
Do I want him next year? That's an unequivocal no from me. I can make an argument based on football and I admit it might be as broad as it's long but with the rest of the baggage the football has to be 1970's Brazil just to get him to the starting line in my eyes and it ain't.
I couldn’t but notice your negativity toward our helmsman. You have your reasons. Without naming names, do you see anyone else helping us out during this complicated time? Maybe just their initials?
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While Allardyce is in post we can't talk about a successor.
However as a hypothetical with regard to the Head Coach position when we are in the Championship (this might be different in the Premier League) I would not of hired Darren Moore when we appointed him. However this version of Darren Moore with 3 seasons Head Coach experience under his belt I would and probably ahead of other candidates with more impressive CV's including a certain Croatian gentleman.
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I was in the anti Sam camp before he came, to an extent I still am.
That said I think he deserves a crack at getting us back up if he wants it. Only proviso is that the standard for performance has now been set, can he maintain that?
He's a strong character, and I'm sure he will want assurances about investment next season.
For me I'd have him here next season if he wants it enough.
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I am warming to him but that stems from the lack of trust I have in Dowling and the board.
From the outside it looks like he has a lot more faith in this team and that might coincide with the hand break being dropped. We could not defend properly for love nor money so I could understand why he was cautious in his approach.
He will not have the luxuries of AMN and Yokuslu next season but I am relieved he has identified a key weakness in this squad and one he would surely address next season. I think with Sam at the helm our midfield will not consist of Sawyers and Livermore and that is a relief. It is however bad news for Grant and Diangana- our expensive acquisitions - as he seemingly does not trust or rate them.
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I am warming to him but that stems from the lack of trust I have in Dowling and the board.
From the outside it looks like he has a lot more faith in this team and that might coincide with the hand break being dropped. We could not defend properly for love nor money so I could understand why he was cautious in his approach.
He will not have the luxuries of AMN and Yokuslu next season but I am relieved he has identified a key weakness in this squad and one he would surely address next season. I think with Sam at the helm our midfield will not consist of Sawyers and Livermore and that is a relief. It is however bad news for Grant and Diangana- our expensive acquisitions - as he seemingly does not trust or rate them.
I think Grant and Diangana will get their chance in the championship; the top prioritiy will be finding two or three proper midfielders probably including a replacement for Perreira, and if Sam is inclined to stay he will surely already be thinking about who could do a job for him possibly including loanees from top prem clubs who will trust him with their players.
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
Probably due to the 3 game swing we still need and the fact Newcastle play Fulham and Sheff Utd in their last 2 games.
We still need a miracle and it’s a miracle that is highly unlikely to come.
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
Because it would require a miracle of biblical proportions to stay up when we are so many points behind with so few games to play.
We’ve just won our last two games impressively, but we won three all season before that. I can’t forget that fact, and sadly neither does the league table.
I just hope we continue to make a good fist of it for the last few games, because this has been an appalling season and it would be good to have a few more decent memories from our time in the EPL.
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
Maths
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
I would imagine it is largely due to the fact that we have to win pretty much every game and still hope for others to barely pick up any points, allied to the fact we have two derby games in that period, away games at Leicester and Leeds and the small matter of the (albeit beleaguered) Champions to play.
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
Simple if we went 100-0 and Newcastle scrape a 1-0 we are toast, already are TBH
It’s not in our hands it’s in Newcastle’s
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Simple if we went 100-0 and Newcastle scrape a 1-0 we are toast, already are TBH
It’s not in our hands it’s in Newcastle’s
And possibly also in the hands of Burnley an Brighton.
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And possibly also in the hands of Burnley an Brighton.
Nah, they are safe now
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How can people talk about the Championship when we have gone 8-2 in the last 2 matches, absolutely baffling!
Because in the games before Chelsea and Southampton we lost to Sheff Utd, Palace and drew with Burnley, Fulham and Newcastle. That was 3-5 and only 3 points out of 15. The form now is great and I’m absolutely delighted but eventually you run out of games. Also Newcastle have 4 points from their last 2 games.
The last 2 games Allardyce has shown what he can do as a manager and his record proves he knows what he’s doing. What’s most annoying is the fact we threw away so many points earlier in the season. We just chucked games away. Also our delayed transfer activity (as we do every year) meant we didn’t get the team
Together until February. Watching the team at the moment is great but also has a huge sense of “what ifâ€...
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Because in the games before Chelsea and Southampton we lost to Sheff Utd, Palace and drew with Burnley, Fulham and Newcastle. That was 3-5 and only 3 points out of 15. The form now is great and I’m absolutely delighted but eventually you run out of games. Also Newcastle have 4 points from their last 2 games.
The last 2 games Allardyce has shown what he can do as a manager and his record proves he knows what he’s doing. What’s most annoying is the fact we threw away so many points earlier in the season. We just chucked games away. Also our delayed transfer activity (as we do every year) meant we didn’t get the team
Together until February. Watching the team at the moment is great but also has a huge sense of “what ifâ€...
So basically you've given up and thrown in the towel?
I can't believe the negativity, where's the confidence?
If you're not upbeat now then you'll never be.
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The most frustrating thing for me is why we were so negative in pretty much all of our crunch games. As someone else has mentioned the handbrake has now come off but lets face it we have nothing to lose now. We could end up going down by 2 or 3 points and that would be really hard to stomach. As for him staying on I guess we would see more attacking football in the Champ under him. Some of the potential replacements named really don't excite me at all.
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we lost to Sheff Utd, Palace and drew with Burnley, Fulham and Newcastle.
That run has cost us really. If we'd approached those games like we did against Southampton and Chelsea (once injuries and sending off happened), then I think we'd be looking in a much better position. It feels we've lucked out onto this approach down to being 1-0 down against 10 men and 2 injured defenders and basically we have to throw the kitchen sink at it.
It's why it's been so frustrating under Sam. We had a team that isn't very good at defending and a team that isn't very clinical and misses chances (Sam's words). So how do we set up under Sam for the bulk of the time? Trying to defend for our lives and nick the odd goal with our rare foray into the other half.
What we're doing now is what we should have been doing 6 games ago so Sam deserves credit for that, what troubles me that it doesn't take a managerial genius to spot that what we were doing wasn't working and where the team's strengths lie. Let's not forget he hasn't played Robinson for big chunks, Diangana still isn't near the team, he dropped Pierera, these are all issues that we seem to be glossing over now.
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People keep saying we should have done this and that a month ago but it's not that simple.
Its work on the training ground, that takes time.
Look at a couple of months ago, if we opened up in games we got beat without laying a glove, we couldn't defend, now we can play attacking football like first half yesterday and we dont look like conceding everytime opponents get over the halfway line.
It takes time for polar opposite coaches to change teams around.
It's a work in progress. Now we look a real team. Just a bloody shame it'll most probably get dismantled in the summer rather than us building a squad on top of it.
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People keep saying we should have done this and that a month ago but it's not that simple.
Its work on the training ground, that takes time.
Look at a couple of months ago, if we opened up in games we got beat without laying a glove, we couldn't defend, now we can play attacking football like first half yesterday and we dont look like conceding everytime opponents get over the halfway line.
It takes time for polar opposite coaches to change teams around.
It's a work in progress. Now we look a real team. Just a bloody shame it'll most probably get dismantled in the summer rather than us building a squad on top of it.
This. And their fitness has been worked at A LOT.
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People keep saying we should have done this and that a month ago but it's not that simple.
Its work on the training ground, that takes time.
Look at a couple of months ago, if we opened up in games we got beat without laying a glove, we couldn't defend, now we can play attacking football like first half yesterday and we dont look like conceding everytime opponents get over the halfway line.
It takes time for polar opposite coaches to change teams around.
It's a work in progress. Now we look a real team. Just a bloody shame it'll most probably get dismantled in the summer rather than us building a squad on top of it.
It's also a lot easier without Livermore clogging up the middle of the park.
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People keep saying we should have done this and that a month ago but it's not that simple.
Its work on the training ground, that takes time.
Look at a couple of months ago, if we opened up in games we got beat without laying a glove, we couldn't defend, now we can play attacking football like first half yesterday and we dont look like conceding everytime opponents get over the halfway line.
It takes time for polar opposite coaches to change teams around.
It's a work in progress. Now we look a real team. Just a bloody shame it'll most probably get dismantled in the summer rather than us building a squad on top of it.
I was beginning to think sensible posts weren’t allowed....
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January window was a massive plus for us one player in Okay solidified the back line. AMN gave us more legs in midfield and Diagne gave us a focal point up front. Results elsewhere forced Allardyce to go for broke and the team finally found its mojo with front four being really impressive with and without the ball.
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There have been a number of comments on here & social media about the team's improved fitness since SA arrived.
Athletic performance measurement is now a multi-million pound industry & employed by every football club at an elite level.
I'm curious to understand what SA has done differently to improve the fitness of WBA players.
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People keep saying we should have done this and that a month ago but it's not that simple.
Its work on the training ground, that takes time.
Look at a couple of months ago, if we opened up in games we got beat without laying a glove, we couldn't defend, now we can play attacking football like first half yesterday and we dont look like conceding everytime opponents get over the halfway line.
It takes time for polar opposite coaches to change teams around.
It's a work in progress. Now we look a real team. Just a bloody shame it'll most probably get dismantled in the summer rather than us building a squad on top of it.
Perfectly fair post, however I do see it slightly differently.
I think there is a strong body of evidence that it was personnel changes that have improved this side, more than anything done on the training ground (that’s not to say Allardyce won’t have made improvements, see Townsend and Bartley).
Prior to Yokuslu’s debut, we were conceding on average 3 goals a game under Allardyce. Immediately after his debut, we conceded only 3 goals in 6 games. That’s a rather dramatic change and a bit of a coincidence if it was Allardyce’s training ground work that made the difference and not the inclusion of Yokuslu.
Allardyce also started with the same conservative set up vs Chelsea that he had post January with only 3 attacking players on the pitch. We were 1-0 down and likely on our way to another loss before three twists of fate (a red card and 2 defensive injuries) prompted Allardyce to make an attacking change and bring Robinson on for a rare appearance. We subsequently went on to thrash them and play some of the best football I’ve seen us play in the top flight in years. Now was that win mainly down to Allardyce’s training ground work, or a change in formation and set up with an additional attacking player? Would Robinson have ever been brought on in that game and would Pereira have been moved centrally had it not been for the injuries/red card? Would Allardyce have set the team up in the same way for the Saints game had it not been for what happened against Chelsea?
We could put forward the argument that Allardyce needed time to get the defence right before going too attacking and that’s why he delayed going with 4 attackers until now, however I’ve already pointed out the Yokuslu statistic - that didn’t need time to bed in - it was an immediate change. Yokuslu (and AMN in fairness to him) gave us a solid defensive base overnight.
I think it is fair to say that at some point during the 5 game run starting vs Burnley and ending vs Palace where we desperately needed wins, Allardyce would have been safe to make the attacking changes he did vs Chelsea post red card, without worrying too much about training ground work.
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I was beginning to think sensible posts weren’t allowed....
Sensible posts are always allowed. So are those you don’t agree with 😘
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Daily Star running with Allardyce being here regardless of the outcome.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/west-brom-sam-allardyce-exclusive-23906404
The old guff about him wanting guarantees etc.. is in there. Still to be hoped we can snatch victory for the jaws of defeat by just being tight and not giving him any guarantee.
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Daily Star running with Allardyce being here regardless of the outcome.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/west-brom-sam-allardyce-exclusive-23906404
Yes if he wants to stay I'd be all for it. He has been outstanding in turning this around.
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Perfectly fair post, however I do see it slightly differently.
I think there is a strong body of evidence that it was personnel changes that have improved this side, more than anything done on the training ground (that’s not to say Allardyce won’t have made improvements, see Townsend and Bartley).
Prior to Yokuslu’s debut, we were conceding on average 3 goals a game under Allardyce. Immediately after his debut, we conceded only 3 goals in 6 games. That’s a rather dramatic change and a bit of a coincidence if it was Allardyce’s training ground work that made the difference and not the inclusion of Yokuslu.
Allardyce also started with the same conservative set up vs Chelsea that he had post January with only 3 attacking players on the pitch. We were 1-0 down and likely on our way to another loss before three twists of fate (a red card and 2 defensive injuries) prompted Allardyce to make an attacking change and bring Robinson on for a rare appearance. We subsequently went on to thrash them and play some of the best football I’ve seen us play in the top flight in years. Now was that win mainly down to Allardyce’s training ground work, or a change in formation and set up with an additional attacking player? Would Robinson have ever been brought on in that game and would Pereira have been moved centrally had it not been for the injuries/red card? Would Allardyce have set the team up in the same way for the Saints game had it not been for what happened against Chelsea?
We could put forward the argument that Allardyce needed time to get the defence right before going too attacking and that’s why he delayed going with 4 attackers until now, however I’ve already pointed out the Yokuslu statistic - that didn’t need time to bed in - it was an immediate change. Yokuslu (and AMN in fairness to him) gave us a solid defensive base overnight.
I think it is fair to say that at some point during the 5 game run starting vs Burnley and ending vs Palace where we desperately needed wins, Allardyce would have been safe to make the attacking changes he did vs Chelsea post red card, without worrying too much about training ground work.
That's a great post Baggies, like you I can't help feeling that those circumstances unfolding at Chelsea, forced Sam's hand, otherwise it is very unlikely that Robinson would have figured. Further to that had Gallagher been available then I feel Robinson would most certainly not have moved from the bench. Now he cannot be overlooked.
I am quite open to Allardyce staying on whatever division we are in next season, but some people are starting to believe he can walk on water.
Yesterday he bought on Gallagher for Robinson, and HRK for Diagne, why at 3-0, again no opportuniy for Diangana and in particular Grant, or are we waiting for another set of circumstances to force him to think "outside the box"
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.....I am quite open to Allardyce staying on whatever division we are in next season, but some people are starting to believe he can walk on water.......
I'm going to go on record here to suggest he probably wouldn't make it across a frozen pond ;D ;) .
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
Yes to all this. His fat bloke /Ron Manager image hides a very clued up footballing brain.
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
And this is exactly where I am. Very good post, mate
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if the club is sold, hopefully it is to someone who thinks they have a plan.
if not sold, then a short term band-aid is what we're likely to get from Lai, has Alladyce written all over it in that event.
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
Good post Dan, spot on👍
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
Said similar, more succinctly but far less detailed on social media the other day. Great post to be fair.
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Excellent post Dan.
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Great post Dan, got to be the right choice in my opinion, if we go down he has a head start on any new manager that may come in and there is no doubt about his eye for a player.
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I'd like Allardyce to stay whether we stay up or go down. We need longevity, patience and commitment, not to be constantly changing manager every time we are in a bad spell. I'm still praying we can pull off the mother of all escapes and keep this team together. Long shot, obviously.
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If we were to go down who are we going to get that's better? An ex-player/hero blah blah. We all know how that emotional garbage ends.
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If we were to go down who are we going to get that's better? An ex-player/hero blah blah. We all know how that emotional garbage ends.
Don't think we can answer that question yet. There are some big unemployed names.
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Don't think we can answer that question yet. There are some big unemployed names.
Quite right. Was more of a rhetorical question/musing than asking for a discussion on it.
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If we were to go down who are we going to get that's better? An ex-player/hero blah blah. We all know how that emotional garbage ends.
That list is a very long one and it does include at least one ex player but not because he is an ex player and for what it is worth includes no big names.
Allardyce is essentially a short term fix. He hasn't managed a whole season anywhere since 2015. He relies on squad churn to achieve results. He will bring a whole raft of journeymen pro's to get us promoted but they will have to be replaced if we are or worse still if we fail. He won't bring through any young players because like Pulis he doesn't really trust them and can't develop them and has the excuse of the short term goal of promotion/survival.
You bring in Allardyce to fix things in the very short term you never make the mistake of bringing him in to do anything else. It looks like we are about to make another elementary mistake from the big book of "How not to run a football club"
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Great post Dan, got to be the right choice in my opinion, if we go down he has a head start on any new manager that may come in and there is no doubt about his eye for a player.
For me what you say about him having a head start is critical. We will need to move very quickly in the market to build a squad capable of promotion which will need time to train together. Big Sam knows the team well. That would be my biggest recommendation for him. He seems to spot the issues and fix them. My only fear is that he’ll expect too many assurances to be kept on. The board will not be able to influence him and they may see getting him out as the easier option for them. I agree that he probably isn’t a long term builder of a team in the style of a Graham Potter but I’m not convinced our board (or even us supporters) would be patient enough for that approach. If relegated we need to hit the Championship running and come back as champions for me.
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the question for me regarding BS is the same as it would be for any manager we appoint.
Will the board back him?
I would imagine it would be easier for BS to get what he want's now his feet are under the table, rather than a new boy come in and be hoodwinked.
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A steady solution for owners who can't see beyond short term , they won't get anybody better .
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A steady solution for owners who can't see beyond short term , they won't get anybody better .
I don't see who would be more long term than a bloke who has been promoted from the Championship and survived, multiple times, in the Prem. The plan simply has to be to employ someone who can, not only get us promoted, but can actually stay there. (Pretty much anyone can do the first bit)
Surely it is more short term to take a punt on someone with potential but no tangible experience?
I'm no massive Sam fan, but at this point, I see him as the most "long-term" option available. The only contest would be style of play, which is still a genuine concern, but our recent Brazilian exploits suggest he at least has a more expansive side to his M.O.
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A steady solution for owners who can't see beyond short term , they won't get anybody better .
1000% this. I get Standamans frustrations. I think we are all in the same boat there but while Lai is here i can't see us doing any better than Sam. Unless a magic pot of money appears and we all know how likely that is to happen.
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That list is a very long one and it does include at least one ex player but not because he is an ex player and for what it is worth includes no big names.
Allardyce is essentially a short term fix. He hasn't managed a whole season anywhere since 2015. He relies on squad churn to achieve results. He will bring a whole raft of journeymen pro's to get us promoted but they will have to be replaced if we are or worse still if we fail. He won't bring through any young players because like Pulis he doesn't really trust them and can't develop them and has the excuse of the short term goal of promotion/survival.
You bring in Allardyce to fix things in the very short term you never make the mistake of bringing him in to do anything else. It looks like we are about to make another elementary mistake from the big book of "How not to run a football club"
I'm starting to question if there is any strategy in football other than short term? The fans ideological nirvana of long term projects and bringing the kids through is becoming fantastical, and I was a follower of that ideal myself.
A manager gets a maximum half a season to get the desired results and/or show progress or he's out. Potter may have been an exception to the rule with DA's support but would we still be so confident of this if relegation was a serious possibility for Brighton?
The man currently in charge has identified the weaknesses, that we could all see, and recruited incredibly well for a winter window. The team look organised and now, through luck or judgement, we carry a threat. It's taken more time than the owners hoped but well within that half season window.
His record suggested it, but from what i have seen the last few games I am in little doubt now that SA is a top level manager in the same mould as Roy. Neither could make a purse with a sows ear but given the right support will produce a competitive PL team and that's the best we can hope for.
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I'm starting to question if there is any strategy in football other than short term? The fans ideological nirvana of long term projects and bringing the kids through is becoming fantastical, and I was a follower of that ideal myself.
A manager gets a maximum half a season to get the desired results and/or show progress or he's out. Potter may have been an exception to the rule with DA's support but would we still be so confident of this if relegation was a serious possibility for Brighton?
The man currently in charge has identified the weaknesses, that we could all see, and recruited incredibly well for a winter window. The team look organised and now, through luck or judgement, we carry a threat. It's taken more time than the owners hoped but well within that half season window.
His record suggested it, but from what i have seen the last few games I am in little doubt now that SA is a top level manager in the same mould as Roy. Neither could make a purse with a sows ear but given the right support will produce a competitive PL team and that's the best we can hope for.
It is still possible and the likes of Swansea are doing it. Cooper came into a setup that Potter had worked with for a year or so. They've continually sold their best assets and paid relative peanuts for replacements ...and they get kids into their starting line up and buy young talent from other clubs. Barring the odd blip they've tended to stick to their policy of hiring managers with a footballing philosophy. You could also say that Barnsley started a long term project 3 or 4 years ago and are on their 3rd manager in that time I think - but the recruitment and playing philosophy seems pretty constant.
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Am I softening towards Allardyce?, no, I'm still in the camp that circumstance drove the recent huge change in emphasis to progressive football rather than any tactical nous.
I can accept that the club is unstable and adding more instability (new manager) is foolhardy and concur that new ownership is imperative, but sadly in my opinion unlikely.
So much needs "fixing", Ownership, DoF, Management strategy, recruitment, Academy, The Squad (loanees, contracts expiring, ageing players) all are huge opportunities in their own rights. The less we try to address all of these this summer the better it seems to me.
If Allardyce can demonstrate between now and the end of the season that he can be progressive in nature of football, man-manage valuable assets like Diangana and grant properly then I will modify my position towards him as a coach / manager, I will always despise the man but I can swallow that if he fixes the fundamentals of the football side of WBAFC.
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Am I softening towards Allardyce?, no, I'm still in the camp that circumstance drove the recent huge change in emphasis to progressive football rather than any tactical nous.
I can accept that the club is unstable and adding more instability (new manager) is foolhardy and concur that new ownership is imperative, but sadly in my opinion unlikely.
So much needs "fixing", Ownership, DoF, Management strategy, recruitment, Academy, The Squad (loanees, contracts expiring, ageing players) all are huge opportunities in their own rights. The less we try to address all of these this summer the better it seems to me.
If Allardyce can demonstrate between now and the end of the season that he can be progressive in nature of football, man-manage valuable assets like Diangana and grant properly then I will modify my position towards him as a coach / manager, I will always despise the man but I can swallow that if he fixes the fundamentals of the football side of WBAFC.
Include MP in that set of valuable assets and I am exactly of the same mind as Albionic on this. Doubt I will ever warm to Allardyce, but might be able to accept him as our coach/manager until the opportunities are taken to alter the circumstances of our club for the better, and a superior longer term option is available.
However for the present, fixing the fundamentals of the footballing side is something I really hope Allardyce can/will do. We will have to see if the recent vastly superior and more effective playing style is continued and that, our own decent creative players are given a fair opportunity in the team when the chance arises.
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It is still possible and the likes of Swansea are doing it. Cooper came into a setup that Potter had worked with for a year or so. They've continually sold their best assets and paid relative peanuts for replacements ...and they get kids into their starting line up and buy young talent from other clubs. Barring the odd blip they've tended to stick to their policy of hiring managers with a footballing philosophy. You could also say that Barnsley started a long term project 3 or 4 years ago and are on their 3rd manager in that time I think - but the recruitment and playing philosophy seems pretty constant.
I would argue that, over the last 5 years we have fared far better than both Swansea and certainly Barnsley.
In that time Swansea have employed Bob Bradley, Paul Clement and Leon Britton.
I would also argue that, if Swansea do manage to get promoted, and find themselves in the same position as we were come November, Cooper will be out on his arris.
I'm no fan of our hierarchy and I'm not having a pop at you, I get your point, but these are poor examples of what we should aspire to, in fact I'm sure it's the other way around.
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I think Allardyce is a good manager but I don’t get the assumption there is no-one out there that’s better. There are plenty of good managers out there. The problem for me is that there seems to be no long term vision for the club and we only normally get managers who are out of work. Going for a younger coach who we would need time to rebuild requires courage and patience. They aren’t usually our forte.
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I would argue that, over the last 5 years we have fared far better than both Swansea and certainly Barnsley.
In that time Swansea have employed Bob Bradley, Paul Clement and Leon Britton.
I would also argue that, if Swansea do manage to get promoted, and find themselves in the same position as we were come November, Cooper will be out on his arris.
I'm no fan of our hierarchy and I'm not having a pop at you, I get your point, but these are poor examples of what we should aspire to, in fact I'm sure it's the other way around.
Swansea appear to have been dealing with a worse financial situation than we realised so their comeback does deserve credit, but I understand what you mean.
Barnsley however are a perfect example, as are Brentford. These are 2 smaller clubs who don't have our resources, but will be competing with us next season despite all of our advantages. Imagine Barnsley on a bigger scale and you have a Leicester.
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If Allardyce can demonstrate between now and the end of the season that he can be progressive in nature of football, man-manage valuable assets like Diangana and grant properly then I will modify my position towards him as a coach / manager, I will always despise the man but I can swallow that if he fixes the fundamentals of the football side of WBAFC.
This is a big thing for me. Grant, Diangana, Sawyers and to a lesser extent Livermore are all nowhere to be seen at the moment and yet they will all almost certainly be here next season and the majority of our championship rivals would take them off us in a heartbeat, so it would be a waste not to use them. I get Livermore should only be a back up and if push came to shove, we could sell Sawyers (I personally think that's a mistake), but Grant and Diangana will be here regardless due to their huge fees and we need somebody who can get the best out of them, else it is a missed opportunity and would mean further wastes of money to fill their positions.
Allardyce really needs to start giving them some opportunities in the remaining games, particularly once relegation is confirmed as writing off so many top end championship players for the next campaign, given the financial situation, would be criminal.
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This is a big thing for me. Grant, Diangana, Sawyers and to a lesser extent Livermore are all nowhere to be seen at the moment and yet they will all almost certainly be here next season and the majority of our championship rivals would take them off us in a heartbeat, so it would be a waste not to use them. I get Livermore should only be a back up and if push came to shove, we could sell Sawyers (I personally think that's a mistake), but Grant and Diangana will be here regardless due to their huge fees and we need somebody who can get the best out of them, else it is a missed opportunity and would mean further wastes of money to fill their positions.
Allardyce really needs to start giving them some opportunities in the remaining games, particularly once relegation is confirmed as writing off so many top end championship players for the next campaign, given the financial situation, would be criminal.
Allardyce does not need to be giving opportunities to anyone that doesn't cut the mustard. We have games to play, points to play for and whatever else happens we have a duty to remain competitive at all times.
Sawyers cant even get in the matchday 18 now (or however many players there are on the twenty foot long bench). As long as Allardyce is here I dont think Sawyers has a future at the club and rightly so.
Livermore should be a Championship back up and no more.
Grant will be a decent option next season.
Diangana was a stupid signing and a waste of £12 or whatever million it turns out to be to (and yes I did say so at the time).
Trouble is if we want to sell Diangana we only get a fraction of what we paid for him which is not good business sense.
Sawyers should be easier to offload. We should be circulating his name around Championship clubs.
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Swansea appear to have been dealing with a worse financial situation than we realised so their comeback does deserve credit, but I understand what you mean.
Barnsley however are a perfect example, as are Brentford. These are 2 smaller clubs who don't have our resources, but will be competing with us next season despite all of our advantages. Imagine Barnsley on a bigger scale and you have a Leicester.
But, we only have our resources because we have been well run and successful.
Same will be true next year, if we go down. We will be well positioned because of our lack of debt, flex down contracts, sellable assets etc.
Like I said I'm no fan of our hierarchy, but, in the main, we are pretty robust and well run, especially as a Championship club, which is what you are comparing us to. Where we fall over is when we get promoted, and that's where the young manager, youth players model will also fall over, as they just won't compete.
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Allardyce does not need to be giving opportunities to anyone that doesn't cut the mustard. We have games to play, points to play for and whatever else happens we have a duty to remain competitive at all times.
Sawyers cant even get in the matchday 18 now (or however many players there are on the twenty foot long bench). As long as Allardyce is here I dont think Sawyers has a future at the club and rightly so.
Livermore should be a Championship back up and no more.
Grant will be a decent option next season.
Diangana was a stupid signing and a waste of £12 or whatever million it turns out to be to (and yes I did say so at the time).
Trouble is if we want to sell Diangana we only get a fraction of what we paid for him which is not good business sense.
Sawyers should be easier to offload. We should be circulating his name around Championship clubs.
I agree with most of this with the significant exception of Diangana. He will make a good player in my view and will certainly be a major asset in the lower division, if given a run of games.
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WBA should not be a safe haven for old pro's on their way down in their career.
The club needs to up it's game and get a little more ruthless.
Livermore and HRK should be freed at season end regardless of outcome. We have dropped a major clanger with Grant, I'd give him a season loan to see if he can improve with that club? Diangana is a major talent and will find himself again.
If the worst happens with relegation, we'll be right at the top end of the championship. Norwich took 21pts last season, we are going way beyond that total.
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But, we only have our resources because we have been well run and successful.
Same will be true next year, if we go down. We will be well positioned because of our lack of debt, flex down contracts, sellable assets etc.
Like I said I'm no fan of our hierarchy, but, in the main, we are pretty robust and well run, especially as a Championship club, which is what you are comparing us to. Where we fall over is when we get promoted, and that's where the young manager, youth players model will also fall over, as they just won't compete.
Let's wait and see what the accounts say, I'm not sure we're in that good shape.
Agreed on the flex down contracts, but I'm not sure about lack of debt (according to local journo's who had been briefed on the accounts), we made an operating loss of £23 million. Add that to the £23 million owed to the owner, & we have a debt of £46 million.
As far as saleable assets are concerned, the two most valuable assets (Diangana & Grant) can't get into the team at the moment, so it's unlikely that we would make a profit on them.
Without external funding, almost all models fall over, it's difficult to see where we go from here.
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Let's wait and see what the accounts say, I'm not sure we're in that good shape.
Agreed on the flex down contracts, but I'm not sure about lack of debt (according to local journo's who had been briefed on the accounts), we made an operating loss of £23 million. Add that to the £23 million owed to the owner, & we have a debt of £46 million.
As far as saleable assets are concerned, the two most valuable assets (Diangana & Grant) can't get into the team at the moment, so it's unlikely that we would make a profit on them.
Without external funding, almost all models fall over, it's difficult to see where we go from here.
It's relatively low debt though and I don't think it will hamper us too much, I'm no expert though and I appreciate you know your way around accounts.
Most saleable assets are Pereira and Johnstone and whilst I'd love to keep the former, I think he'll go if we go down. Someone might even be daft enough to take the likes of Livermore or HRK as their reputations appear higher outside of the club. Diangana and Grant will play their part in the Champ.
Upshot is we will be amongst the wealthiest and best prepared clubs in terms of the squad and transfer market.
Agree with the last point but we can't really blame anyone for that. Like it or not, the best "long-term" plan is to stick with a manager with a history of both promotion from the Champ and survival in the Prem.
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It's relatively low debt though and I don't think it will hamper us too much, I'm no expert though and I appreciate you know your way around accounts.
Most saleable assets are Pereira and Johnstone and whilst I'd love to keep the former, I think he'll go if we go down. Someone might even be daft enough to take the likes of Livermore or HRK as their reputations appear higher outside of the club. Diangana and Grant will play their part in the Champ.
Upshot is we will be amongst the wealthiest and best prepared clubs in terms of the squad and transfer market.
Agree with the last point but we can't really blame anyone for that. Like it or not, the best "long-term" plan is to stick with a manager with a history of both promotion from the Champ and survival in the Prem.
They could & should, but I'm not sure how you motivate two people to play for you next season, when they weren't good enough this season.
I'm struggling to see how SA can incorporate players he's frozen out.
If SA stays, there will have to be some significant changes to the playing squad (assuming we are relegated), really not sure how we pay for that.
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Allardyce does not need to be giving opportunities to anyone that doesn't cut the mustard. We have games to play, points to play for and whatever else happens we have a duty to remain competitive at all times.
Sawyers cant even get in the matchday 18 now (or however many players there are on the twenty foot long bench). As long as Allardyce is here I dont think Sawyers has a future at the club and rightly so.
Livermore should be a Championship back up and no more.
Grant will be a decent option next season.
Diangana was a stupid signing and a waste of £12 or whatever million it turns out to be to (and yes I did say so at the time).
Trouble is if we want to sell Diangana we only get a fraction of what we paid for him which is not good business sense.
Sawyers should be easier to offload. We should be circulating his name around Championship clubs.
Once we are relegated, if Allardyce has plans to stay here next season then the planning needs to start then and there, with whatever games we have left (my guess would be 2 or 3). It will mean he should be looking to at the very least get Grant and Diangana off the bench for some minutes. Neither player has actually been given much of a chance this season in a well balanced side. I’d love to see what they could do with Yokuslu behind them and Diagne in front. All we have to go off so far is a stop start first half of the season where Bilic and Dowling had failed to address the issues from last season.
You can’t say Grant would be a good option next season if Allardyce won’t use him even as a sub in this one and you have made my own case for me with the Diangana sale problem - we either use him or a very expensive asset will rot in our reserves like Burke did.
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But, we only have our resources because we have been well run and successful.
Same will be true next year, if we go down. We will be well positioned because of our lack of debt, flex down contracts, sellable assets etc.
Like I said I'm no fan of our hierarchy, but, in the main, we are pretty robust and well run, especially as a Championship club, which is what you are comparing us to. Where we fall over is when we get promoted, and that's where the young manager, youth players model will also fall over, as they just won't compete.
It’s going slightly off topic, but I’d argue the resources we have are more down to the base of work Ashworth did at the start of the last decade. Since that point, we have rode our luck, even in the last 2 years with the promotion. We were better than the other relegated sides in the subsequent years so I wouldn’t sat we were a poorly run club, but we aren’t well run either.
Others are increasingly getting more from less (Leeds, Brentford, Norwich, Barnsley).
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Once we are relegated, if Allardyce has plans to stay here next season then the planning needs to start then and there, with whatever games we have left (my guess would be 2 or 3). It will mean he should be looking to at the very least get Grant and Diangana off the bench for some minutes. Neither player has actually been given much of a chance this season in a well balanced side. I’d love to see what they could do with Yokuslu behind them and Diagne in front. All we have to go off so far is a stop start first half of the season where Bilic and Dowling had failed to address the issues from last season.
You can’t say Grant would be a good option next season if Allardyce won’t use him even as a sub in this one and you have made my own case for me with the Diangana sale problem - we either use him or a very expensive asset will rot in our reserves like Burke did.
What would be the point, from a planning for next season perspective, when Yokuslu is not going to be here?
We might as well wait until this season is done and try and get in a replacement for Yokuslu as soon as possible and then try Grant and Diangana with that player instead.
Allardyce isn't stupid and I'm sure he knows how well Diangana did for us in the Championship and also how Grant was at Huddersfield. I'm sure both players will be in his plans just maybe not as starters.
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They could & should, but I'm not sure how you motivate two people to play for you next season, when they weren't good enough this season.
I'm struggling to see how SA can incorporate players he's frozen out.
If SA stays, there will have to be some significant changes to the playing squad (assuming we are relegated), really not sure how we pay for that.
It feels like people are being very optimistic to imagine that 3 or 4 players who are out in the cold right now could suddenly be reintegrated and become key players next season. While that might be ok with Livermore and even to a degree Sawyers (which I’ve said would be a mistake), we just can’t afford in the current climate to let 2 players of Grant and Diangana’s. price and pedigree to go to waste.
The reality is that if Allardyce does not fancy them, then he will be looking for additional players in their positions and I’m not convinced we can afford that (not with us already needing 1 or 2 central midfielders, a centre forward and maybe defensive reinforcements).
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What would be the point, from a planning for next season perspective, when Yokuslu is not going to be here?
We might as well wait until this season is done and try and get in a replacement for Yokuslu as soon as possible and then try Grant and Diangana with that player instead.
Allardyce isn't stupid and I'm sure he knows how well Diangana did for us in the Championship and also how Grant was at Huddersfield. I'm sure both players will be in his plans just maybe not as starters.
The reason for trying it is to see how they fit into the system. If they look good, it gives Allardyce confidence to use them next season. Look at Robinson, had it not been for the twist of fate at Chelsea then he would be the 5th member of the squad who would be looking at an uncertain future despite his proven track record.
If Allardyce does not see potential starting roles for Grant and Diangana, then he will want to get replacements in their position, which will be a further expense when our priority needs to be a centre forward and maybe 2 central midfielders.
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Anybody who thinks that Grant and Diangana aren't good enough to be in a starting XI in the Championship needs to give their head a serious wobble.
The gulf between the two divisions is massive. Norwich a prime example. Rock bottom of the Premier League, far too good for the Championship. One place separates their ranking from last season to this season.
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Well I for one don’t think Grant would be worth a starting place in the Champ ! He’s done very little for us this season . Diangana is another matter and hopefully will come good again .
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As an aside and without using hindsight as a topic of discussion, we have let players like Jonny Evans (contract issue and ridiculous clause) and Craig Dawson go.
Both are now vying for Champions League end of season positions.
This is the club’s failings and not Allardyce’s. He has inherited what could have been a much stronger squad.
Let’s just see where the next few games take us and if he’s here next season then back him fully, regardless of who he does or doesn’t want to keep or sign. It’s worked for him by and large in the past....
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Well I for one don’t think Grant would be worth a starting place in the Champ ! He’s done very little for us this season . Diangana is another matter and hopefully will come good again .
Agree that Grant hasn't done enough this season, however he scored 19 goals for a poor Huddersfield side the last time he played in the Championship so I think that would warrant serious consideration for a starting place.
I'm not sure Allardyce sees it that way though.
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The reason for trying it is to see how they fit into the system. If they look good, it gives Allardyce confidence to use them next season. Look at Robinson, had it not been for the twist of fate at Chelsea then he would be the 5th member of the squad who would be looking at an uncertain future despite his proven track record.
If Allardyce does not see potential starting roles for Grant and Diangana, then he will want to get replacements in their position, which will be a further expense when our priority needs to be a centre forward and maybe 2 central midfielders.
Who's to say we will be playing the same system next season though? The requirements are different. This season was about trying to stay in the Pl next season will be more about trying to get promotion.
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Allardyce likes certain types of players, some of our players wont fit in to his plans so if there's a way we can get rid of them we are best doing it, if Allardyce stays of course.
He's commented about fitness levels, says they are up 25%. I wouldn't know how much they've gone up myself but its clear they have. Now there is no fading in games and we look as though we'd have no trouble with 30 mins extra time.
Physicality is an important thing and notice how we play now, wide men receive the ball and are positive on it. Gone are the days of players having three, four touches holding on to the ball.
The likes of Sawyers and Diangana like to feel the ball too much for their respective roles it's no surprise they aren't getting a look in. Even Pereira has sharpened up on the ball.
I know it's easy to say when we've just won two back to back games but Allardyce is impressing me. No more looking at the team prior to kick off and thinking "why the hell is so and so playing" and "we're getting nothing today".
If he wants to stay, keep him and back him.
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Allardyce likes certain types of players, some of our players wont fit in to his plans so if there's a way we can get rid of them we are best doing it, if Allardyce stays of course.
He's commented about fitness levels, says they are up 25%. I wouldn't know how much they've gone up myself but its clear they have. Now there is no fading in games and we look as though we'd have no trouble with 30 mins extra time.
Physicality is an important thing and notice how we play now, wide men receive the ball and are positive on it. Gone are the days of players having three, four touches holding on to the ball.
The likes of Sawyers and Diangana like to feel the ball too much for their respective roles it's no surprise they aren't getting a look in. Even Pereira has sharpened up on the ball.
I know it's easy to say when we've just won two back to back games but Allardyce is impressing me. No more looking at the team prior to kick off and thinking "why the hell is so and so playing" and "we're getting nothing today".
If he wants to stay, keep him and back him.
That may be the simple answer re Diangana, as he has struggled for fitness pretty much since he got here, not his own doing I might add. Maybe with a proper pre-season we will see the gem that we all know is in there, whatever league we are in.
Grant just hasn't fit in, Bilic bought him but didn't really play to his strengths, then Allardyce came in and bought the far superior Diagne. I don't think he's been frozen out per-se, he just doesn't fit the current remit. The league we are in next season will dictate his chances.
A lot of posters call for a long term plan but seem to think that is exclusive to a young manager, there's no reason, however, why Allardyce cannot fit that brief. Roy was older when he took over at Palace.
If it is to be Allardyce, then there's no reason why he can't be here for many years, his top 6 ship has sailed, as has his International aspiration so, if he can keep us in, or get us back to, the Prem, his "better options" would be limited.
That's long term thinking in my book, it just might not be the long term thinking we want.
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A lot of posters call for a long term plan but seem to think that is exclusive to a young manager, there's no reason, however, why Allardyce cannot fit that brief. Roy was older when he took over at Palace.
If it is to be Allardyce, then there's no reason why he can't be here for many years, his top 6 ship has sailed, as has his International aspiration so, if he can keep us in, or get us back to, the Prem, his "better options" would be limited.
That's long term thinking in my book, it just might not be the long term thinking we want.
Fully agree.
We then need to play a certain way at all levels of the club. No chopping and changing , the other teams U23's downwards adapt the same philosophy as the first team and you fill the club with players to play within that set up.
Then when the time comes that Allardyce leaves ideally I'd like to see someone from inside the club take over beit Sammy Lee, Mozza, Brunty whoever. Much like Liverpool used to do back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. It may not be the ideal way for clubs like Man City and Liverpool but to a club like ours it can be it means you dont have polar opposite managers coming and going, someone takes over who knows what we're about. If we have to appoint from outside then it needs to be someone with a similar philosophy.
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Squad churn is going to be the defining issue. If Allardyce takes the approach a number of his more vociferous supporters seem to be taking that everybody who currently isn't playing regularly for him is rubbish (at any level) and need to be replaced with an all-star Championship XI then I doubt he will get the assurances he wants from the club and there will be a parting of the ways.
My guess would be Allardyce will be more realistic and if for instance he gets the money from any sales (Pereira and Johnstone probably) to reinvest that will be okay. For that to work he will have to dust down one or two players he seems to have sidelined and work them back into the matchday squad and possibly the starting XI. If he can't or won't again there has to be a parting of the ways.
The one issue where I have some sympathy with Allardyce is the Robinson and Grant conundrum.. Getting a shape and a style that gets both on the pitch seems to be virtually impossible because both are at their most effective playing wide left and cutting in. At Championship level with a team that dominates possession we might be able to use one as a 9 but neither is the target man that Allardyce prefers in the role. Playing neither is not an option playing both is difficult. Selling either won't be easy unless Robinson's purple patch generates some Premier League level interest.
Retaining Allardyce like hiring him in the first place is an all or nothing gamble. We look like we lost the first bet but are doubling down to get out of it next season. Lose that and things won't look at all rosy.
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Robinson CF and Grant wide would be my solution, Will Allardyce adapt to this sort of set up, I feel he would have preferred Andy Carroll to SKP, so I hope to be proven wrong
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Robinson CF and Grant wide would be my solution, Will Allardyce adapt to this sort of set up, I feel he would have preferred Andy Carroll to SKP, so I hope to be proven wrong
I understand Allardyce will want to sign another centre forward, it makes sense as we don't have a true centre forward at the club (other than Zohore and loosely HRK who was originally an attacking midfielder).
With Grant next season, I would just be asking for guarantees that he would at the very least have Austin or Krovinovic status and be a regular option to either start or be a regular sub and the same goes for Diangana and Sawyers. The worry is that 1, 2 or even 3 of them might end up with Zohore/Grosicki status.
That would then be a waste of talent, a waste of money and would mean Allardyce would want even more money to find replacements for them - money we wouldn't need to spend with a different manager.
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Who's to say we will be playing the same system next season though? The requirements are different. This season was about trying to stay in the Pl next season will be more about trying to get promotion.
We don't know the exact system Allardyce will play, but from February onwards, we have had a genuine centre forward in Diagne, a defensive midfield in Yokuslu & AMN and for the last 2 games, Pereira at the head of the midfield dictating our attacking play.
In that sort of structure, Diangana and Grant could flourish and at least give Allardyce something to think about.
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That may be the simple answer re Diangana, as he has struggled for fitness pretty much since he got here, not his own doing I might add. Maybe with a proper pre-season we will see the gem that we all know is in there, whatever league we are in.
Grant just hasn't fit in, Bilic bought him but didn't really play to his strengths, then Allardyce came in and bought the far superior Diagne. I don't think he's been frozen out per-se, he just doesn't fit the current remit. The league we are in next season will dictate his chances.
A lot of posters call for a long term plan but seem to think that is exclusive to a young manager, there's no reason, however, why Allardyce cannot fit that brief. Roy was older when he took over at Palace.
If it is to be Allardyce, then there's no reason why he can't be here for many years, his top 6 ship has sailed, as has his International aspiration so, if he can keep us in, or get us back to, the Prem, his "better options" would be limited.
That's long term thinking in my book, it just might not be the long term thinking we want.
An older manager can stay for a long time. If you look at Allardyces history, it doesn’t suggest he does that. His longest stint was Bolton which was his first job. He was at Palace, Sunderland, Everton and Newcastle for a year and Blackburn for maybe 2. He also was at England for 1 game so he’s done better here ;)
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An older manager can stay for a long time. If you look at Allardyces history, it doesn’t suggest he does that. His longest stint was Bolton which was his first job. He was at Palace, Sunderland, Everton and Newcastle for a year and Blackburn for maybe 2. He also was at England for 1 game so he’s done better here ;)
How many clubs has Hodgson had? ;)
He still claims that Palace is one of the proudest periods of his career. There's no reason Allardyce can't emulate what he did at Bolton.
I know I sound pro-Allardyce but I'm not necessarily, I just find it mad that the club are accused of short termism, yet the answer seems to be sack a manager of his pedigree and start all over again with a younger, more progressive coach, when the truth is that this is almost impossible to achieve with out budget.
Add to this, Daren Moore was a young, progressive coach, who gave youth a chance and that didn't end well and not just with the board but with a large section of our own fanbase.
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If we keep Big Sam then I think that a number of Slav’s regulars will either be moved on in the close season or be warming the bench next season . Robinson is already making a play for the left hand side role which obviously doesn’t help Grant , and I don’t think either could sustain a central role . Sawyers and Livermore are unlikely to return to their former ever present status . No doubt several whose contracts are up in the summer will also be moved on .
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If we keep Big Sam then I think that a number of Slav’s regulars will either be moved on in the close season or be warming the bench next season . Robinson is already making a play for the left hand side role which obviously doesn’t help Grant , and I don’t think either could sustain a central role . Sawyers and Livermore are unlikely to return to their former ever present status . No doubt several whose contracts are up in the summer will also be moved on .
Finally dismantling all the garbage we couldn't get rid of last time we went down will be a massive boon. If Grant and Sawyers are casualties of that then so be it.
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Further up there is talk of Robinson v grant its them v diangana. We also have Edwards and grosicki. (Although one if not both will be gone summer) also you could argue snodgrass is left sided
The other side we have Phillips. That's hugely unbalanced.
I like what sam has done with squad he saw issues and addressed them and imagine we will see more come summer if he is still in job regardless of league we are in
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I seem to be changing my mind by the week but there is no debating he has improved us and like I've said previously I feel more confident with him having a say on signings then I did with the likes of Billic. Keep SA and he will bring us back up. I don't want to be over confident but we are about to drop into a Covid ravaged championship with 2 years cover in the form of parachute payments and a competitive budget in the summer by all accounts. Keeping Allerdyce has gone to the very top of my priorities for the club to get right this coming summer.
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An older manager can stay for a long time. If you look at Allardyces history, it doesn’t suggest he does that. His longest stint was Bolton which was his first job. He was at Palace, Sunderland, Everton and Newcastle for a year and Blackburn for maybe 2. He also was at England for 1 game so he’s done better here ;)
He managed Limerick, Blackpool and Notts County before Bolton but they were relatively short lived appointments too.
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Allardyce has identified exactly what we as fans were begging for. For that alone I want him to have the summer transfer window and next season.
I would hope there is a future for Grant and Diangana but with Robinson finishing strongly like he did last year it's hard to see everybody having a future.
When you know what Grant and Diangana are capable of (particularly in the Championship) you kind of want to see them get a chance. For me I'd have Diangana Right and Robinson/Grant Left but Allardyce seems keen on the right-footed Phillips playing on the right, so arguably a left-footer would be better on the left which then brings up an issue.
There is plenty to ponder with our wide forwards/wingers situation, whatever league we're in next year.
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How many clubs has Hodgson had? ;)
He still claims that Palace is one of the proudest periods of his career. There's no reason Allardyce can't emulate what he did at Bolton.
I know I sound pro-Allardyce but I'm not necessarily, I just find it mad that the club are accused of short termism, yet the answer seems to be sack a manager of his pedigree and start all over again with a younger, more progressive coach, when the truth is that this is almost impossible to achieve with out budget.
Add to this, Daren Moore was a young, progressive coach, who gave youth a chance and that didn't end well and not just with the board but with a large section of our own fanbase.
I am not saying sack Allardyce, I actually think he's a good manager. The point being made was older managers can stay for a long time. I was saying they can but given Allardyce's track record he doesn't stay long at most clubs he's at. Also I love Roy but I don't remember his tenure at the Hawthorns being a long one ;)
In terms of younger "progressive managers" here our our recent appointments.
Irvine, Pulis, Pardew, Moore, Bilic, Allardyce. I wouldn't say the idea of hiring younger managers has actually been all that tested at the Hawthorns in recent times...
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Well I for one don’t think Grant would be worth a starting place in the Champ ! He’s done very little for us this season . Diangana is another matter and hopefully will come good again .
Diangana has also done very little for us this season.....I don’t see that much difference between them .
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He managed Limerick, Blackpool and Notts County before Bolton but they were relatively short lived appointments too.
He's 66 now though. No ambition left in terms of looking for higher profile jobs. He's in it because he loves it, it's in his blood.
At his age comfort is desirable not ambition. If he's happy at Albion he's not going to be looking for anything else.
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He's 66 now though. No ambition left in terms of looking for higher profile jobs. He's in it because he loves it, it's in his blood.
At his age comfort is desirable not ambition. If he's happy at Albion he's not going to be looking for anything else.
And if he was happy/ proud enough of the national job?
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Sam Allardyce would still be England manager now had he not made an error of judgment off the pitch.
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And if he was happy/ proud enough of the national job?
He didnt voluntarily walk away from the England job.
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He didnt voluntarily walk away from the England job.
That’s exactly my point .....
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That’s exactly my point .....
????
Is it?
Where is the relevance to Albion and the here and now?
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I take my hat off to SA! Not my choice, nor ever will be, but has obviously increased the fitness of the squad. The board as usual has a big decision to make. One they've obviously ****ed up before! I hope they get the next decision right or they could set the club back years. Just because I don't think someone isn't right for the job doesn't mean I don't support them. Looking forward to the future! There will always be an Albion!
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Watched the Chelsea and Southampton highlights (yet again) on TV courtesy of YouTube earlier. I honestly couldn't care less whether he stumbled on a winning formula by accident or by design.
Two fantastic performances the likes of which were all too infrequent for us over our last few seasons of Premier League football. Still smiling now, such a pity none of us were there to witness them in person.
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Watched the Chelsea and Southampton highlights (yet again) on TV courtesy of YouTube earlier. I honestly couldn't care less whether he stumbled on a winning formula by accident or by design.
Two fantastic performances the likes of which were all too infrequent for us over our last few seasons of Premier League football. Still smiling now, such a pity none of us were there to witness them in person.
I agree with you Dan - and no doubt we would have consumed many a beer in the sportsman afterwards to celebrate.
In both of the performances we have looked a well accomplished side in this division which is a well earned doff of the cap to the players and coaching staff given some of the limitations with this squad.
People can suggest we were lucky to fall into such a winning formula. At this level of elite sport you do not fall into anything. It’s the precious work on the training pitch which produces the winning formula. The side look very well drilled, well organised and that will be through the repetitious exercises on the training pitch.
Well done to all involved.
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I agree with you Dan - and no doubt we would have consumed many a beer in the sportsman afterwards to celebrate......
No doubt mate. Speaking of which if you're there later sink a few for me please 8) .
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Allardyce made that '25% fitter over the past 10 games' statement this week and that has been very evident...and so overdue.
Although there are fitness and medical staff involved also, the actual job of setting the correct mix of training intensity between matches must come from the manager and training staff. It's been undoubtedly helped by the length of time we've had between games recently especially the near 3 weeks before the Chelsea game.
I don't want to reignite anything against Bilic but fitness levels seemed to drop off a cliff with players looking fit and energised early in his spell but way off the mark post lockdown and onwards.
Everyone now looks fitter in every position and the importance of that can't be overstated - players are able to do the pressing consistently and able to flood forward with energy on the break when required.
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Allardyce made that '25% fitter over the past 10 games' statement this week and that has been very evident...and so overdue.
Although there are fitness and medical staff involved also, the actual job of setting the correct mix of training intensity between matches must come from the manager and training staff. It's been undoubtedly helped by the length of time we've had between games recently especially the near 3 weeks before the Chelsea game.
I don't want to reignite anything against Bilic but fitness levels seemed to drop off a cliff with players looking fit and energised early in his spell but way off the mark post lockdown and onwards.
Everyone now looks fitter in every position and the importance of that can't be overstated - players are able to do the pressing consistently and able to flood forward with energy on the break when required.
I would call out any manager on this because it is either doping or ********. Assuming that he isn't doping then a 25% hike in fitness levels particularly in competition is just not available regardless of training regime and certainly not at elite level sports over a short period of time.
We might be looking at improvement we might be looking at well rested players but we ain't looking at 25% fitter players.
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Regardless, their levels of effort are clearly 25% higher than previously. About time too. Effort, fitness and application are the cornerstones to showcasing ability and technique.
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Big turnaround on fitness. Massive improvement there and everywhere. The team have some sort of organisation now and there's a clear shape to the team whereas before it was all over the gaff or seemed that way at least.
Even the guys who looked helpless and way out of their depth before now look like fighting, lower level PL players instead of whipping boys.
Benefitting big time from a superior coach.
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Regardless, their levels of effort are clearly 25% higher than previously. About time too. Effort, fitness and application are the cornerstones to showcasing ability and technique.
Not sure on actual % of fitness but that squad had started fading in games after the first lockdown , you could see this from about 65 mins in a lot of games . Mentally and physically weak for long spells , another tick for keeping Allardyce in my view .
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Basically everywhere he goes Allardyce leaves in a better place than when he came in, the signs are he would do the same for us if given a chance.
This is not a well run club. It is not the kind of club that is going to employ some project manager, overhaul the recruitment and stick to a playing style. Not with the current ownership. The best hope we have by far is begging Allardyce to stay, giving him control over everything and then hopefully he will leave us in a very good place in a couple of seasons or so.
Say what you like about Allardyce but he can organize a team, spot a player, and identified our issues and recruited smartly to fill those holes. Just sadly isn't going to be enough time to save us this season. But for next seasons rebuild I'd rather Allardyce than any of the other likely alternatives.
Lets face it, Allardyce is a good premier league standard manager. No one we get is going to be on that level. At best we will get some manager with potential but unproven, but most likely someone far more flawed than Allardyce. Worst case scenario we would end up with some appointment like Appleton.
Fantastic post that is fella
Wholeheartedly agree with you
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I would call out any manager on this because it is either doping or ********. Assuming that he isn't doping then a 25% hike in fitness levels particularly in competition is just not available regardless of training regime and certainly not at elite level sports over a short period of time.
We might be looking at improvement we might be looking at well rested players but we ain't looking at 25% fitter players.
I doubt it's been measured at 25%, just Allardyce plucking a figure out of the air....maybe him just saying fitness levels are better would have done. Regardless, that 3 week break before the Chelsea game will have given the situation which has been very rare due to concentration of games under covid....i.e. a block of time where they can have good sessions on tactical organisation AND intensive physical training sessions AND allow rest and recovery. At least some credit is due for having put that time to good use.
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I would call out any manager on this because it is either doping or ********. Assuming that he isn't doping then a 25% hike in fitness levels particularly in competition is just not available regardless of training regime and certainly not at elite level sports over a short period of time.
We might be looking at improvement we might be looking at well rested players but we ain't looking at 25% fitter players.
It's entirely possible to achieve 25% increase in fitness in 8 weeks, it depends on what you're measuring and what the base line was.
I took this from Wikipedia - not verbatim. Izumi Tabata developed Tabata training where Olympic athletes trained for 8 minutes four times per week and increased their VO2 Max from 48 to 55 mL/kg•min. That's around a 15% increase in 6 weeks of 32 minutes of training/week. Bear in mind it's not a linear scale eitherarginal increases in laboratory defined values will translate to completely different gains on the track. Then you add in the last time you ate, had a rubbish, how you slept etc.
Whilst maybe not everyone increased their fitness by 25%, you're going to focusing on the headline numbers to give anyone listening an understanding of how far you've come.
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Maybe Jake and Romaine are 25% fitter and therefore worthy of reintegrating then??
Well it was a thought anyway 8)
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Maybe Jake and Romaine are 25% fitter and therefore worthy of reintegrating then??
Well it was a thought anyway 8)
Entirely possible, they were starting from the lowest starting point!
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One huge tick in the Allardyce column for me is if he has the final say on player recruitment. He seemed to identify our biggest areas of weakness. One huge challenge is all our January additions were loans and we need to ship a few out...
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Interesting article in the Express & Dingle about moaning non-featuring players and how Allardyce judges their various levels of being in contention for selection.
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/04/17/sam-allardyce-challenges-west-brom-players-unhappy-with-playing-time/
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The very best endorsement of any Manager, is when his/her team members say they've improved under the Managers' watch.......................
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Anyone moaning about not playing simply does not have a case.
There's a transfer window coming up I suggest they have a chat with their agents about finding a new club.
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Anyone moaning about not playing simply does not have a case.
There's a transfer window coming up I suggest they have a chat with their agents about finding a new club.
Surely Callum Robinson disproves that theory.
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Surely Callum Robinson disproves that theory.
Not at all.
The only player not currently starting that has any case is Gallagher but he was only left out because he wasnt eligible to play against Chelsea.
Snodgrass wont be moaning at his stage of his career and hes carrying a knock anyway.
Ajayi knows he's well in the plans just that Dara and Barts have the shirts at the moment.
Anyone else meh. Livermore, Sawyers, Gibbs, Grant, Diangana, Edwards, HRK, Grant. Not one of them deserve a place.
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Surely Callum Robinson disproves that theory.
Absolutely he does. Massively under utilised.
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Since Sam had signed the players we needed to be more balanced how many games has Diangana played? And let's not forget he also dropped Pierera too.
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It's probably worth remembering Diangana was unavailable for selection for seven games due to a thigh injury.
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Nixon tweeted Sam might be staying on when asked just on Twitter. Nothing ground breaking but it's slow on here today. I hope he does. A dose of common sense in a club without any.
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Surely Callum Robinson disproves that theory.
The Callum Robinson case utterly disproves this opinion, I would not dignify it it by calling it a theory. From my own observations I have formed an opinion that in the games he has played, West Bromwich Albion's Callum Robinson has had a far greater positive effect than Chelsea's headless chicken. I leave it to the stats guys to support or shoot this down.
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Nixon tweeted Sam might be staying on when asked just on Twitter. Nothing ground breaking but it's slow on here today. I hope he does. A dose of common sense in a club without any.
Why would you want him to.Everyone can see from the last two performances we've had the players here to keep us up but his cautious approach especially in the Newcastle at home and Crystal palace away games not to mention not being able to win one off the Burnley,Sheff Utd and Fulham games has ultimately relegated us.
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Why would you want him to.Everyone can see from the last two performances we've had the players here to keep us up but his cautious approach especially in the Newcastle at home and Crystal palace away games not to mention not being able to win one off the Burnley,Sheff Utd and Fulham games has ultimately relegated us.
Because he's improved the players no end. Including the ones he didnt sign. Whilst i agree he was too cautious over that mini-run the clubs problems and relegation stem from what went on prior to his arrival when we were an embarassment frankly.
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Nixon tweeted Sam might be staying on when asked just on Twitter. Nothing ground breaking but it's slow on here today. I hope he does. A dose of common sense in a club without any.
Sam's no mug, only way he stays is size of transfer pot and probably control of incomings and out goings.
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Sam's no mug, only way he stays is size of transfer pot and probably control of incomings and out goings.
Rather Sam than Dowling that's for sure.
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Rather Sam than Dowling that's for sure.
I have often made clear my thoughts on Allardyce, but I find myself really having to agree with this 100%.
Still not happy for him to stay, but have no viable alternatives so if he does then ok.
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Time for Allardyce and the club to decide where we go from here.
Is he going to be in charge next season or not.
Personally I’m not bothered, however they need to make a decision now.
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His record could change in the last 6 games, and 2 derby wins, or even a win and a draw will probably be enough for him with the fans and the board, but he currently sits on 3 wins from 20 games (15% win ratio) and even post the Jan transfer window with all of the new signings, a record of 2 wins from 10 (a 20% win ratio).
Personally, I'd hope at the very least it isn't a forgone conclusion he stays - still need to see some evidence in these last 6 games.
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On tonights performance did he just fluke the Chelski and Southampton results?
Did he sing them a lullaby before the game as most of them were a bloody sleep. Tactical naive against a team that holds the ball for fun, on the fence if he stays only because I don't want Dowling leading our recruitment next season.
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On tonights performance did he just fluke the Chelski and Southampton results?
Did he sing them a lullaby before the game as most of them were a bloody sleep. Tactical naive against a team that holds the ball for fun, on the fence if he stays only because I don't want Dowling leading our recruitment next season.
He's a good manager. He got it wrong tonight though.
In fairness I dont think he would usually set up like that against Leicester but he knows we only have a few games to play and literally have to go for it so perhaps he felt he had no choice?
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On tonights performance did he just fluke the Chelski and Southampton results?
Did he sing them a lullaby before the game as most of them were a bloody sleep. Tactical naive against a team that holds the ball for fun, on the fence if he stays only because I don't want Dowling leading our recruitment next season.
No in answer to your first question. You don’t fluke results in this division.
I think Atomic is pretty much spot on - any other point in the season and Gallagher and Ajayi are in that side to contest the midfield and provide us that defensive stability. We need to win games and does make us incredibly open to losing games, especially against sides as good as Leicester.
That being said, you can talk tactics las as much as you want - if you fail at doing the basics then the tactics are pretty irrelevant really.
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Allardyce can train them all week long , when push comes to shove this squad lacks the mentality .
Again and again we've seen this with both Sam and Bilic .
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Time for Allardyce and the club to decide where we go from here.
Is he going to be in charge next season or not.
Personally I’m not bothered, however they need to make a decision now.
Totally agree with this though - the club cannot reasonably plan for next season if they do not know who will be in the dugout.
We have a hectic summer coming without a managerial Merry go round.
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No in answer to your first question. You don’t fluke results in this division.
I think Atomic is pretty much spot on - any other point in the season and Gallagher and Ajayi are in that side to contest the midfield and provide us that defensive stability. We need to win games and does make us incredibly open to losing games, especially against sides as good as Leicester.
That being said, you can talk tactics las as much as you want - if you fail at doing the basics then the tactics are pretty irrelevant really.
I agree. We needed to go for the 3 points as much as possible and there was no reason to change the formation which worked well at Chelsea, who also have some very creative players.
Tonight we just couldn't get the basics right. I lost count of the wasted passes, many of which were just lazy lunges at the ball which ended up going anywhere. Diagne had a 'mare. Think his confidence went after that early miss, but he's the best we've got up front.
Leicester are a good, well-drilled side, but they looked twice as motivated as us, seemed to be quicker onto any loose balls and won most of the individual duels.
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After 10 minutes the tactics being used were totally wrong having 2 midfielders being over run by three Leicester midfielders should have been addressed. The suicidal high line being used by our defence should have been addressed in game. Why no press from our front men that was so successful in previous two games surely that also could of been addressed in game.
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After 10 minutes the tactics being used were totally wrong having 2 midfielders being over run by three Leicester midfielders should have been addressed. The suicidal high line being used by our defence should have been addressed in game. Why no press from our front men that was so successful in previous two games surely that also could of been addressed in game.
We didnt really need to press. Defending deeper with an extra man in midfield and in central defence wouldve given us two extra bodies in central areas and completely nullified the threat in behind that they totally exposed us with first half.
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We didnt really need to press. Defending deeper with an extra man in midfield and in central defence wouldve given us two extra bodies in central areas and completely nullified the threat in behind that they totally exposed us with first half.
he's tried to defend from back but we haven't got player's for that our strengths are our attacking players who have to start the press up front that is where we got our joy in 2 wins
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After 10 minutes the tactics being used were totally wrong having 2 midfielders being over run by three Leicester midfielders should have been addressed. The suicidal high line being used by our defence should have been addressed in game. Why no press from our front men that was so successful in previous two games surely that also could of been addressed in game.
If we adopted the high press from the forwards then we would have been playing a high line anyway. The press was immaterial really as because the midfield were outnumbered Leicester would have played straight through us.
The issue wasn’t necessarily the high line, it was the width provided by Castagne and Thomas which opened the middle of the park for Maddison and Tielemans.
The change at half time negated that but the game was gone by then.
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If we adopted the high press from the forwards then we would have been playing a high line anyway. The press was immaterial really as because the midfield were outnumbered Leicester would have played straight through us.
The issue wasn’t necessarily the high line, it was the width provided by Castagne and Thomas which opened the middle of the park for Maddison and Tielemans.
The change at half time negated that but the game was gone by then.
one time we pressed from front took ball of player and Phillips got shot off?
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In defence of both Allardyce and the players there might not have been a tactical fix to that. Leicester City are very good sitting off them just might have stemmed the tide but having Tielemans Maddison and Castagne playing the whole game just outside your box might not have a great outcome either.
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Forget the tactics, the big issue is he didn't react, after 15-20 minutes it was clear that our set up wasn't working, but he sat on his fat ass until half time by which time we were relegated.
Unacceptable!!
I turned my machine off last night I was so angry, hoping to be more considered this morning and i am
I consider Allardyce inept, end of.
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What the hell did he do in the ten days between our last match and this that turned a team of confident attacking talented players back into such a shambles.
This performance was very like some of the other heavy defeats under this manager, fear driven, backing off, nobody willing to take the chance to run at them, and nobody looking to find the space to take a pass. Scared stiff like rabbits in the headlights.
I know Leicester are now truly a top team. They played very well, they have a talented midfield trio, and two strikers on fire at the moment and one of them always scores against us, the Stepto-faced irritating little oik! And as usual they fielded 12 players against us, the 12th man gave us nothing. But where was the management of this game? It was obvious that not only were we out-skilled in midfield, we were also out-numbered, Yokuslu was having to do everything. Allardyce had options - he did nothing!
We got what we deserved, had we stayed with the system used in the previous matches and not just the same team, we would probably have still lost, possibly by even more, but at least we could say we tried. We picked the same team but did not try to win this so had no chance from the off. Bad management as well as poor performance. Worry about confidence for the next games now
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Let's see what the remaining games look like. If we don't see the Albion Samba again, get rid.
If we go down with some fight and some spirit, see if he will stay. Well, maybe.
This really has been a truly horrible season.
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Let's see what the remaining games look like. If we don't see the Albion Samba again, get rid.
If we go down with some fight and some spirit, see if he will stay. Well, maybe.
This really has been a truly horrible season.
if we get rid of Allardyce can he take Dowling with him?
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Who makes the decisions re Dowling? and will they answer why is he still in post after so much failure? If Allardyce stays or not, I would prefer a DOF who actually knows a bit about the world-wide player market himself, and we do not have to rely so much on the Head Coach to identify and sign players outside the local area.
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Who makes the decisions re Dowling? and will they answer why is he still in post after so much failure? If Allardyce stays or not, I would prefer a DOF who actually knows a bit about the world-wide player market himself, and we do not have to rely so much on the Head Coach to identify and sign players outside the local area.
Just the shame the bloke above him knows next to nothing about football either..
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Just the shame the bloke above him knows next to nothing about football either..
Nor me, but between us there are a few on here I reckon could do a better job - fancy a job share at say £100k? a session
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I think we are all pretty much agreed that a clueless DOF and clueless owners are entirely the real problem. I don't blame SA for where we are and - ooh controversial - I don't blame Slaven either.
Maybe we need to have a Manager and not a Head Coach because to my mind that model has NOT been working for some time now.
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
Correct the third goal was needed. Diange needed hooking he was blowing out his backside with 25 to go
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
Jesus wept. How long have you watched football, the ebb and flow of the game, it not a coincidence, aside from the very best teams you sit back when you're winning... nothing to do with Allardyce or Pulis or John Beck.
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We clearly needed a wider line of 5 across the back as the game went on and I’d endorse O’Shea coming on. I even suggested it in the match thread. The team were just too tired and as a squad there just isn’t enough energy and bite on the bench for that situation. In my opinion this is not something Allardyce has been able to address, he done what he could and got the midfield starters we needed but he can’t work miracles sadly.
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
Exactly right, it's nothing to do with the "ebb and flow", we sat back and conceded the middle third of the pitch to Villa hoping we could keep them out. With better defenders it's possible - with ours it's a massive risk and something we've suffered from all the while under Sam apart from Chelsea (post sending off and Southampton).
It's simple, if your defenders aren't very good, and I don't think anyone here would say that our defense IS good, then you want to spend as little time as possible with them under pressure.
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Jesus wept. How long have you watched football, the ebb and flow of the game, it not a coincidence, aside from the very best teams you sit back when you're winning... nothing to do with Allardyce or Pulis or John Beck.
long enough to no this team can't defend, their strengths are pressing high which got us second goal. After that we just sat in and tried to catch them on break.
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We clearly needed a wider line of 5 across the back as the game went on and I’d endorse O’Shea coming on. I even suggested it in the match thread. The team were just too tired and as a squad there just isn’t enough energy and bite on the bench for that situation. In my opinion this is not something Allardyce has been able to address, he done what he could and got the midfield starters we needed but he can’t work miracles sadly.
You don't think taking Diagne off for Diangana would have put some fresh legs on the pitch? Diagne barely moved for the last 30 mins and we still had an unused sub. I'm not sure we can complain about tiredness and energy if we aren't using all 3.
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Exactly right, it's nothing to do with the "ebb and flow", we sat back and conceded the middle third of the pitch to Villa hoping we could keep them out. With better defenders it's possible - with ours it's a massive risk and something we've suffered from all the while under Sam apart from Chelsea (post sending off and Southampton).
It's simple, if your defenders aren't very good, and I don't think anyone here would say that our defense IS good, then you want to spend as little time as possible with them under pressure.
bloke is drunk because Allardyce rightly blamed Bartley for equaliser
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You don't think taking Diagne off for Diangana would have put some fresh legs on the pitch? Diagne barely moved for the last 30 mins and we still had an unused sub. I'm not sure we can complain about tiredness and energy if we aren't using all 3.
The fact you think Grady could replace Diagne means your opinion can be discounted sadly.
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You don't think taking Diagne off for Diangana would have put some fresh legs on the pitch? Diagne barely moved for the last 30 mins and we still had an unused sub. I'm not sure we can complain about tiredness and energy if we aren't using all 3.
I don’t think Diangana would’ve got a touch the way the game was going. Believe me I’d love to see Diangana on the pitch more but I don’t think that sub would have made any difference. We needed energy in the middle and extra defence in wide areas. There are no options through the middle off the bench.
We lost in the end because of an error. We rode our luck at the back as it dragged on but they did too at one point.
I just can’t blame Allardyce for tonight personally.
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The fact you think Grady could replace Diagne means your opinion can be discounted sadly.
You don't have to replace like for like, we needed extra legs on the pitch and someone who could run with the ball. We'd given up all hope of a 3rd, so needed someone with pace and if they get possession someone who could run with it.
Anything, even Kanu, would be better than Diagne who wasn't moving. Look at the goal, look at the effort he put in to stop the ball coming into the box. A fitter player and that ball doesn't come in under no pressure.
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I don’t think Diangana would’ve got a touch the way the game was going. Believe me I’d love to see Diangana on the pitch more but I don’t think that sub would have made any difference. We needed energy in the middle and extra defence in wide areas. There are no options through the middle off the bench.
We lost in the end because of an error. We rode our luck at the back as it dragged on but they did too at one point.
I just can’t blame Allardyce for tonight personally.
Like I said though, we'd given up all hope of a 3rd and was just hanging on. For the last 15 Diagne didn't offer anything and didn't get a kick either. How would anyone have been worse and at least someone with fresh legs could have closed down.
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We didn't need anything except keeping our concentration.
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We all knew a goal was coming, the amount of corners, crosses and shots we allowed at goal.
In the end it was a mistake but they could have taken any of those chances. We can not see out games like that...
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
I agree. Teams that sit back invite all the pressure on to them, and usually end up conceding. After we took the lead, we let Villa control the midfield and our defence was put under intense pressure. I was hoping that Villa weren't creative or accurate enough to take advantage, but the chances kept coming and in the end it was individual errors from SJ and Bartley between them, which cost us.
I'm sure we could have scored a third, if we had continued to attack Villa with serious numbers.
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We didn't need anything except keeping our concentration.
Ah yes, when you're defending for your lives and your attackers legs have gone, he just needs to "concentrate" to get his legs back.
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Ah yes, when you're defending for your lives and your attackers legs have gone, he just needs to "concentrate" to get his legs back.
What are you on about the game was won.
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People going on about our tactics saying they were wrong - we were totally comfortable in that second half and they resorted to shots from distance and some half chances off a scrappy set piece.
You’re going on about attacking teams as it suits us best - it was the 92nd minute of the game. Every team in history camps in their own half when there is such minimal time remaining. That is the ebb and flow of a football match. Had our centre half and goalkeeper not had a brain fart then we’re sitting here commending a good defensive performance and three points.
Had we been attacking teams in the 92nd and conceded a goal on a subsequent counter attack you would be throwing your arms up to say we should have been defending..
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Don't much like him as a person but I'd like to see what he could do next season . He's made players who looked lost a few months back compete and that's not just down to the loan 3 .
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Allardyce tactics all wrong for me after we scored the second, this team can only defend by attacking teams. Sitting back is not one of our strengths and neither is three at the back looked all over the place with introduction of O'Shea.
He had less than ten minutes on the pitch. Hardly all over the place.
They had shoved on both Wesley and Davis who are both man mountains.
It was the right call to bring on an extra centre half as we could see what was coming.
You can call the tactics all wrong - but it’s a rush of blood at the end that cost us, not the tactics.
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Don't much like him as a person but I'd like to see what he could do next season . He's made players who looked lost a few months back compete and that's not just down to the loan 3 .
One of the handful of people at the club who has any clue about football.
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You don't think taking Diagne off for Diangana would have put some fresh legs on the pitch? Diagne barely moved for the last 30 mins and we still had an unused sub. I'm not sure we can complain about tiredness and energy if we aren't using all 3.
There’s probably a good reason why Diagne was on until the end and his work for three of those Villa corners towards the end was a good indication as to the reason why.
The suggestion that he should have been replaced by Diangana is startling really as there far more like for like suggestions.
As it happens - I wouldn’t have brought him off either.
If Johnstone catches the ball or Bartley heads it away then this is a total non issue.
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Far from comfortable in second half with keeper coming up with decent save from volley,and point blank shot them hitting post before equaliser. Numerous balls over top and coming in from wide positions were causing all sorts of problems. Thought are midfield were dogged in breaking up play but majority of their passes were going a stray which caused more pressure. Once we got it up field we looked a threat and should have got a third.
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He had less than ten minutes on the pitch. Hardly all over the place.
They had shoved on both Wesley and Davis who are both man mountains.
It was the right call to bring on an extra centre half as we could see what was coming.
You can call the tactics all wrong - but it’s a rush of blood at the end that cost us, not the tactics.
For the last 5 minutes yes, run the clock down etc., but we were too cautious most of the second half. We didn't beat Chelsea by playing in our own half.
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Far from comfortable in second half with keeper coming up with decent save from volley,and point blank shot them hitting post before equaliser. Numerous balls over top and coming in from wide positions were causing all sorts of problems. Thought are midfield were dogged in breaking up play but majority of their passes were going a stray which caused more pressure. Once we got it up field we looked a threat and should have got a third.
You state we were far from comfortable but have highlighted one shot from distance.
The chance where they hit the post comes from their chap falling over whilst we had several blokes on the line anyway.
You cite that we were defensive and that a Allardyce got those tactics wrong but then cite the midfield as putting their passes astray. Has it not occcured that because the midfield were so sloppy in possession that it is the reason why we ended up doing more defensive work? Had they not been so wasteful then there might have been some more of the attacking play you crave. They’re certainly not instructed to be so wasteful.
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What are you on about the game was won.
It's not won until the ref blows his whistle. We were being pushed deeper and deeper as the second half wore on - it's not like the goal was the only chance they created. They had several dangerous balls into the box that we were lucky no-one was on the end, there was the mad scramble that ended up with them hitting the post, and because we were so deep we had no out ball at all. At least normally Diagne would chase something down but his legs had gone.
And we had a sub left to use...
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There’s probably a good reason why Diagne was on until the end and his work for three of those Villa corners towards the end was a good indication as to the reason why.
The suggestion that he should have been replaced by Diangana is startling really as there far more like for like suggestions.
As it happens - I wouldn’t have brought him off either.
If Johnstone catches the ball or Bartley heads it away then this is a total non issue.
I suggested Diangana as an example because, frankly, anyone is a better option than Kanu imo! Either way, Diagne's legs had gone and we had an unused sub. Gallagher was blowing out of his backside too and Phillips had offered nothing since coming on. We needed to do something to try and stop the wave after wave of attack, instead we conceded two thirds of the pitch to Villa and hoped we'd hold on.
It's pretty obvious you've got two options at this point. You try and get control of the game and limit the opposition's possession - or you concede it and hope your defending can see you through.
We sat too deep for the last 20 minutes and we paid the price. We've seen it in game after game, some we've got away with, lots we haven't. This lot aren't good at defending so relying on them to do it for long periods of time will cost us.
For the record, it would still be an issue, clinging on for 20-30 minutes and just riding your luck to see a game out isn't a great option, as more often than not you'll concede at this level.
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It's not won until the ref blows his whistle. We were being pushed deeper and deeper as the second half wore on - it's not like the goal was the only chance they created.
A side needing to win a must win local Derby dropping deeper as the half wears on to protect their lead.. :-X
The goal isn’t even from a chance - it’s a totally nothing situation and we’ve gifted them a goal. It is ****poor communication from them both.
They had several dangerous balls into the box that we were lucky no-one was on the end of
Several dangerous balls into that box that were defended bloody well, would have sufficed.
It wasn’t luck at all.
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You don't think the mad scramble that resulted in them thumping it off the post wasn't luck?
Put it this way, if we'd have been attacking the way Villa did for the last 30 mins, I'd feel gutted that we didn't score. We were far from comfortable - we were hanging on. The phrase "you could see it coming" is designed for matches like that.
I'd also add that I thought that Villa were lucky to not be 3-1 down, we looked like scoring until we sat deeper and deeper and played into their hands.
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You don't think the mad scramble that resulted in them thumping it off the post wasn't luck?
Put it this way, if we'd have been attacking the way Villa did for the last 30 mins, I'd feel gutted that we didn't score. We were far from comfortable - we were hanging on. The phrase "you could see it coming" is designed for matches like that.
I'd also add that I thought that Villa were lucky to not be 3-1 down, we looked like scoring until we sat deeper and deeper and played into their hands.
SA is at fault for this.
We should play to our strength, which is attack.
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You state we were far from comfortable but have highlighted one shot from distance.
The chance where they hit the post comes from their chap falling over whilst we had several blokes on the line anyway.
You cite that we were defensive and that a Allardyce got those tactics wrong but then cite the midfield as putting their passes astray. Has it not occcured that because the midfield were so sloppy in possession that it is the reason why we ended up doing more defensive work? Had they not been so wasteful then there might have been some more of the attacking play you crave. They’re certainly not instructed to be so wasteful.
just stating that we were far from comfortable in second half and misplaced passing by midfielders who visibly dropped deeper after we scored second goal caused even more pressure. Tactics played a part in us conceding which was frustrating when we looked like scoring a third when we moved up the field which was less frequent after we got a head.
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You don't think the mad scramble that result in them thumping it off the post wasn't luck?
Put it this way, if we'd have been attacking the way Villa did for the last 30 mins, I'd feel gutted that we didn't score. We were far from comfortable - we were hanging on.
Not every chance is a consequence of luck. If the shot is on target it probably hits Townsend and goes out for a corner - failing that Furlong had got himself onto the line in any case.
When you’re talking of luck then Villa had it in abundance as a result of our error as they won’t be given an easier goal all season.
Our attacking play in the latter stages of the second half faltered because AMN, Yokuslu, Gallagher were blowing out if their arses and couldn’t retain possession enough to get us playing into Diagne and Pereira.
If we had turned that game into a pin-ball match then we’d have been picked off and you would have been the first person to be on here criticising.
For all this apparent Villa pressure, they created one meaningful chsnce of note where Watkins went through. There other chances came from distance after crosses into our box that we defended well.
Quite frankly, the best two opportunities in the second half fell to us - Bartley’s header hitting the inside of the post and being tipped over by Martinez, and Bartley failing to square the ball to Diange not long after our second.
I have no doubt that our ball retention and attacking capabilities in that second half would have been much more clinical had we not looked knackered from our efforts on Thursday. Unfortunately, aside from AMN, Gallagher and Yokuslu there are no other options.
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I don't think it was Bartley's header, it came off a Villa player. When Villa hit the post, another 2 inches and that's in, Furlong isn't getting there and nobody is blocking it. SJ was by far the busier keeper second half. Its not the entire half that I have an issue with, it's the dropping deeper and deeper, so probably more like the last 15. When we got forward we looked we might score. When AMN went off we handed control of the midfield straight to Villa and it was backs to the wall from that moment on.
There was options though. We could have swapped AMN for Diangana/Grant and moved Gallagher into the middle. We could have kept CR on and taken Diagne off. We could have swapped Diagne later on for Kanu/Grant.
Defensively we didn't have many options but we had players barely making a run yet we finished the game with a sub spare.
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I don't think it was Bartley's header, it came off a Villa player. When Villa hit the post, another 2 inches and that's in, Furlong isn't getting there and nobody is blocking it. SJ was by far the busier keeper second half. Its not the entire half that I have an issue with, it's the dropping deeper and deeper, so probably more like the last 15. When we got forward we looked we might score. When AMN went off we handed control of the midfield straight to Villa and it was backs to the wall from that moment on.
There was options though. We could have swapped AMN for Diangana/Grant and moved Gallagher into the middle. We could have kept CR on and taken Diagne off. We could have swapped Diagne later on for Kanu/Grant.
Defensively we didn't have many options but we had players barely making a run yet we finished the game with a sub spare.
Sorry mate but it's almost as if you've never watched a football match before. Aside from the City's and Liverpool's (when they're full strength) no team in this division doesn't retreat on a 1 goal lead late in the game. They just do.
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I totally agree with you Boinging Along.
Allardyce, for 90% of his career, has been a ‘park the bus’ merchant and his philosophy when winning is to drop deeper and deeper, sacrificing a forward player for a defender, surrendering midfield and inviting constant pressure. Anyone who cannot see that can only have watched schoolboy football. Last night against Vile was a classic example.
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To not use all 3 subs was baffling considering Allardyce himself was concerned about the difference between playing on Thursday as against their Wednesday, he said as much after Leicester game. Certainly one or two were running on empty with 15mins to go. Grant or Diana a would have given us the legs for chasing up front as well as being extra cover in wide areas.
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With 15 mins left in a must win I think players (especially of team in the bottom 3) retreat and try and hold on. We also have to remember we just weren’t keeping the ball very well. To hold on and take the pressure off the defence we need to keep the ball better higher up the pitch.
When we went 1-0 down i feared the worst after Thursday but to come back to lead 2-1 into injury time is so gutting (especially against that lot). Ironically last night made me think Big Sam is onto something (although we have a formula to late in the season).
He will be a safe pair of hands in the championship if not a potentially exciting appointment. I do fear without Periera we will be extremely functional to watch next year.
Also for all the plaudits Villa have got this season they will finish around 11th, for a team that have spent so much they rely so heavily on Grealish it’s untrue
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Question from West Brom Live on Twitter
Is Sam your man for 2021-22?
Seems overwhelming in the YES response and from me too of course
https://twitter.com/WestBromNews/status/1386606597141671937
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It's harder to drop back into defence and hold out for 45 minutes than it was in Allardyce's heyday>
1. referees are stricter and don't allow defenders to get away with the sort of tackles countenanced in those days
2. VAR will catch you out (rightly or wrongly) in the end
What worked then may not work now
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Sorry mate but it's almost as if you've never watched a football match before. Aside from the City's and Liverpool's (when they're full strength) no team in this division doesn't retreat on a 1 goal lead late in the game. They just do.
Mate, there's retreating, and there's having a pass success rate of less than 50% and clinging on by your finger tips. The pass success rate is a good idea on how deep we were, in the last 15 mins, out of every 2 passes attempted we conceded possession with one of them. This isn't because players suddenly forgot how to pass, it's because we had no options as we were so deep.
It was wave after wave of attack and we couldn't get the ball to stick to give us any breathing space. The pressure built and Villa scored. I watched the game, we could all see it, read the match thread about how nerve wrangling it got, we were far from in control of that game. We were lucky to come away with a point - another couple of mins and they'd have got another.
Taking off AMN for O'Shea is the moment we conceded all the midfield to Villa - if we weren't going to get extra legs in there to help make up for the lack of player then you're going to be under siege for the rest of the game. To leave Diagne AND Gallagher on, despite them offering nothing defensive wise, while having an unused sub, was a further mistake to us seeing out the game.
Just seems inarguable to me. We sat deeper and deeper, gave possession away more and more, and we paid the price. It's happened countless times this season. This time there were options available to us and we didn't take them.
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It's harder to drop back into defence and hold out for 45 minutes than it was in Allardyce's heyday>
1. referees are stricter and don't allow defenders to get away with the sort of tackles countenanced in those days
2. VAR will catch you out (rightly or wrongly) in the end
What worked then may not work now
I agree, I'd also add that attacking players are better these days too. They're much more capable of that one key pass and won't just rely on launching it in the box for your big CH's to head away repeatedly.
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People going on about our tactics saying they were wrong - we were totally comfortable in that second half and they resorted to shots from distance and some half chances off a scrappy set piece.
You’re going on about attacking teams as it suits us best - it was the 92nd minute of the game. Every team in history camps in their own half when there is such minimal time remaining. That is the ebb and flow of a football match. Had our centre half and goalkeeper not had a brain fart then we’re sitting here commending a good defensive performance and three points.
Had we been attacking teams in the 92nd and conceded a goal on a subsequent counter attack you would be throwing your arms up to say we should have been defending..
Absolutely spot on mate, the bloke will never win with some people and I'm not looking forward to the negative comments throughout next year if he's still in the job.
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Jesus wept. How long have you watched football, the ebb and flow of the game, it not a coincidence, aside from the very best teams you sit back when you're winning... nothing to do with Allardyce or Pulis or John Beck.
I am in my 60's now and watched football all my life, you do not sit back when on top, you capitalise on your advantage. Sitting back on a one goal advantage is an invitation to failure.
I'm staggered at you lack of knowledge sometimes, best stick to cricket I think.
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I fully expect a mutual parting of the ways within the next couple of weeks.
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I fully expect a mutual parting of the ways within the next couple of weeks.
Minor disagreement between Jacko and Albionic, I don't think they'll take it to extremes.
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Minor disagreement between Jacko and Albionic, I don't think they'll take it to extremes.
You are on fire today mate ;D
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You are on fire today mate ;D
Lack of sunscreen ;) .
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No comment!
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Minor disagreement between Jacko and Albionic, I don't think they'll take it to extremes.
to quote a certain party, "no disagreement, I am right" ;D
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I fully expect a mutual parting of the ways within the next couple of weeks.
Is that just a gut instinct or maybe something more...
I’m fully expecting him to be here next season really. Providing we don’t completely crash in the final few games, it seems that the majority of fans want him and Dowling will probably take the view that he can’t get somebody better (because at this point, even he must be doubting his own ability).
The real question will be if Allardyce is happy staying here with very little money available? I think he will, mainly because his options will be limited, particularly after losing his “never relegated from the prem†USP.
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it seems that the majority of fans want him
I’ll be adding a poll come the end of season to get a better understanding of where the fans are.
Not going to do it just yet as the votes would be weighted dependant on the result.
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I fully expect a mutual parting of the ways within the next couple of weeks.
How confident are you in that 79? I don't know how to feel about that. I'd like him to stay personally but wouldn't be shocked to see him leave. I think he looks tired personally and in a Covid world I don't think he wants to be In the game at his age.
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I never thought he would manage us in the Championship. I think the stuff in the press conference a few weeks ago about being open to staying was to maintain his authority in the dressing room when we were all but relegated i.e. "Lads I could be here next season so don't start phoning it in"
He gave himself an out by mentioning he would need to be backed so implying if he to choose to leave it was because the board wouldn't back him. Indeed this might be the case or the club might look for a fresh face and back that coach to the extent that they are willing to back anyone.
In any event we won't have to wait long to find out either way.
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I fully expect Allardyce to be in charge for next season.
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I fully expect Allardyce to be in charge for next season.
He might prefer to move on and hope to get another premiership fire fighting job than manage us in the championship.
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I fully expect Allardyce to be in charge for next season.
Of course he'll stay, what better options will he have?
Certainly no-one in the Championship
Abroad? No chance now the Chinese league has gone belly up
International? Highly unlikely, unless it's somewhere obscure (rubbish) with loads of dough but they are few and far between nowadays.
Prem? Who? Top half won't touch him and most of the bottom half have already had him! Only leaves the likes of Wolves, Villa and Saints. Can't see it.
Let's face it, we are as good as it gets for him so, unless we cut the cord, he's not going anywhere.
Personally, I now think it's also the best option for us. We need someone who can not only get us up but, at the very least, make us competitive when we get there.
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Of course he'll stay, what better options will he have?
Certainly no-one in the Championship
Abroad? No chance now the Chinese league has gone belly up
International? Highly unlikely, unless it's somewhere obscure (rubbish) with loads of dough but they are few and far between nowadays.
Prem? Who? Top half won't touch him and most of the bottom half have already had him! Only leaves the likes of Wolves, Villa and Saints. Can't see it.
Let's face it, we are as good as it gets for him so, unless we cut the cord, he's not going anywhere.
Personally, I now think it's also the best option for us. We need someone who can not only get us up but, at the very least, make us competitive when we get there.
He's 66 and won't be short of money. After 18 months of covid restrictions and probably having satisfied his competitive itch at least for now, cruising around the Carribean may have some fresh appeal.
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For us, I think it comes down to, have we got any better options. I would hope that Dowling is now doing a thorough due diligence assesment of who might be available. But hoping and that actually happening are two different things. Allardyce is only ever going to be a short term Mr Fixit.
I will say he has played some slightly more adventurous football than I was expecting, and he's certainly no Pulis, who I think is in a category of his own. But under Allardyce we are not going to develop a new exciting free-flowing style, as his instinct is safety first from the Don Howe or Alan Hansen school.
I think the problem Dowling has, is who else can he attract. Has he got contacts outside the English game? Or is there anyone on the lower leagues here who is worth taking a gamble on? Not just someone who talks a good game and has a good PR style. If not, it will probably end up being Big Sam.
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Of course he'll stay, what better options will he have?
Certainly no-one in the Championship
Abroad? No chance now the Chinese league has gone belly up
International? Highly unlikely, unless it's somewhere obscure (rubbish) with loads of dough but they are few and far between nowadays.
Prem? Who? Top half won't touch him and most of the bottom half have already had him! Only leaves the likes of Wolves, Villa and Saints. Can't see it.
Let's face it, we are as good as it gets for him so, unless we cut the cord, he's not going anywhere.
Personally, I now think it's also the best option for us. We need someone who can not only get us up but, at the very least, make us competitive when we get there.
So basically, no-one else would touch him with a barge pole, but he's easily the best option for us. Mmmmm
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How confident are you in that 79? I don't know how to feel about that. I'd like him to stay personally but wouldn't be shocked to see him leave. I think he looks tired personally and in a Covid world I don't think he wants to be In the game at his age.
I dont know for certain but a few separate people have mentioned in conversation that we have already agreed a deal with a new manager for next season. On this forum we are not allowed to comment on the next manager whilst we currently have a manager in place so I wont. On a completely separate subject I really like Chris Wilder as a manager and he would be great for whoever he manages next.
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Thanks for the snippet 79.
Hopefully whatever decision we do make is made as early as possible.
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Thanks for the snippet 79.
Hopefully whatever decision we do make is made as early as possible.
Seriously - any decision has to be made public ASAP so we can get planning for next year. But that kind of forethought doesn’t exactly seem to fit our modus operandi.
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Nothing will happen on this until we are formally relegated and even then Allardyce will be taking charge of the last few games so I wouldn't expect any announcement until the end of the season even if there is a new Head Coach waiting in the wings.
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Of course he'll stay, what better options will he have?
Certainly no-one in the Championship
Abroad? No chance now the Chinese league has gone belly up
International? Highly unlikely, unless it's somewhere obscure (rubbish) with loads of dough but they are few and far between nowadays.
Prem? Who? Top half won't touch him and most of the bottom half have already had him!.........
He'd probably have less say over who signs but given their managerial turnover there's a better than average chance that Watford could be on the phone in the not too distant future.
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So basically, no-one else would touch him with a barge pole, but he's easily the best option for us. Mmmmm
I'm sure, if available, he would have many suiters outside the Prem, but non more attractive than us.
It's mutually beneficial.
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I have a feeling he will stay.
He's going to be mighty sore that he lost his never been relegated tag and I think he will have a point to prove.
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I'm sure, if available, he would have many suiters outside the Prem, but non more attractive than us.
It's mutually beneficial.
Nobody outside of the Premiership would be looking at Sam Allardyce, partly because they wouldn't or couldn't pay him what he thinks he deserves, and partly because his style and tactics are well past their sell by date. Before he joined us, did you see any reports of clubs going after him? No. He was pretty much retired, but we offered him a big pile of cash to come, and big piles of cash have always been an attractive selling point with Sam. Hopefully, come the end of the season, he'll be gone and it can't come too soon as far as I'm concerned.
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"Allardyce ready to stay at West Brom even if they are relegated"
We can but hope he does
https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-allardyce-ready-to-stay-at-west-brom-even-if-they-are-relegated/
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Basically I can't think of a better way to max our chances of going back up. He's gauged the current players, he wil know what be wants/ needs and players will come here because of his name.
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"Allardyce ready to stay at West Brom even if they are relegated"
We can but hope he does
https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-allardyce-ready-to-stay-at-west-brom-even-if-they-are-relegated/
Thanks for this. I have mixed views personally but do take on board the view that yet more change could be further damaging.
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Thanks for this. I have mixed views personally but do take on board the view that yet more change could be further damaging.
Ditto !
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Thanks for this. I have mixed views personally but do take on board the view that yet more change could be further damaging.
Just out of interest, if he stays, how long do you expect him to stay for? If we're not in the top few at Xmas, he'll be sacked. If we don't go up in the first season he'll be sacked. And if we do go up, we'll have to offer him an extended contract. And then, when we are in the bottom 3, he'll be sacked. Whichever of these comes first, we'll have to change the manager. We don't do long term planning and we don't do patience.
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Just out of interest, if he stays, how long do you expect him to stay for? If we're not in the top few at Xmas, he'll be sacked. If we don't go up in the first season he'll be sacked. And if we do go up, we'll have to offer him an extended contract. And then, when we are in the bottom 3, he'll be sacked. Whichever of these comes first, we'll have to change the manager. We don't do long term planning and we don't do patience.
Turn it round, which do you think should be accepted, and patience shown, in line with a long term plan?
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Just out of interest, if he stays, how long do you expect him to stay for? If we're not in the top few at Xmas, he'll be sacked. If we don't go up in the first season he'll be sacked. And if we do go up, we'll have to offer him an extended contract. And then, when we are in the bottom 3, he'll be sacked. Whichever of these comes first, we'll have to change the manager. We don't do long term planning and we don't do patience.
And the same thing would happen whoever's in charge. So don't see your point!?
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And the same thing would happen whoever's in charge. So don't see your point!?
People are saying we should keep him because change would be more damaging than not changing. My point is, as you say, change will inevitably happen sooner rather than later, so we would be better off making the change now and giving a new manager the whole pre season to work with the squad. Allardyce isn't a long or even medium term solution
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Turn it round, which do you think should be accepted, and patience shown, in line with a long term plan?
I think we should appoint a forward looking and modern thinking manager, give him a 3 year contract, and stick with him for a minimum of 3 years.
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First, I don't see why we would keep him seeing as the job he was hired to do he's fell woefully short of - we're further away since he signed despite his transfer window and it's not like the teams above us have all gone on amazing runs. All those games wasted where we were defending for our lives with a team that can't defend have cost us. Our 'fortunes' turned because of an enforced change in the Chelsea game.
Which leads me on to if we keep him next year. If he can somehow persuade Pierera to stay then he'd get my vote - as that's a sign of his intent. If he can't, but we go into the games with a much brighter approach and sign some exciting talent then he'd get my vote there too.
If we start filling the squad with more journeymen Snodgrasses or "let's keep it tight at the back at the expense of attacking" (basically the approach he went with that's cost us in his earlier games), and gets rid of talent like Diangana (do we still think they haven't had a fall out?) then I'd rather he went and we got someone in who will set us up to play football in a modern way. As we've seen from Leeds, you can play good football, get promoted at a canter and hold your own in the Premier League.
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I think we should appoint a forward looking and modern thinking manager, give him a 3 year contract, and stick with him for a minimum of 3 years.
Even if he's outside the top few at Xmas and subsequently misses out on promotion? What if we get relegated to League 1 then League 2?
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Even if he's outside the top few at Xmas and subsequently misses out on promotion? What if we get relegated to League 1 then League 2?
Well firstly, I don't see that happening, but okay I will amend my previous suggestion. We should stick with him for 3 years unless we are relegated to League 1.
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Whilst ever Dowling is in situ it will be to our GREAT benefit to keep Allardyce at the club. Regards contract length next season and the season after should see us sitting pretty halfway up the Premier League. If he wants to carry on he's earned it, if he doesn't he's left us far better than he found us, as he always seems to do. Absolute no brainer to keep him.
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Whilst ever Dowling is in situ it will be to our GREAT benefit to keep Allardyce at the club. Regards contract length next season and the season after should see us sitting pretty halfway up the Premier League. If he wants to carry on he's earned it, if he doesn't he's left us far better than he found us, as he always seems to do. Absolute no brainer to keep him.
Like many of your predictions, this is fantasy stuff to be honest. And as for leaving us in a far better place than he found us, we were in 19th place when he took over, and we are still in 19th place. No matter what you might say about points per game or something, in no real world can this be described as "far better"
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I should clarify, if he wants to carry on after those 2 years... thought that was obvious from the flow of the post but it appears a few might need some help...
Hardly fantasy stuff to suggest the team with the highest budget and the best manager gets promoted at the first time of asking then survives the following year due to said manager who is renowned for doing just that... I'd suggest the fantasists are the ones predicting we won't get promoted next season if we go down and keep Allardyce.
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Whilst ever Dowling is in situ it will be to our GREAT benefit to keep Allardyce at the club. Regards contract length next season and the season after should see us sitting pretty halfway up the Premier League. If he wants to carry on he's earned it, if he doesn't he's left us far better than he found us, as he always seems to do. Absolute no brainer to keep him.
What has he done to have earned it? Other than the very rare good performance (Wolves, Chelsea, Southampton) we've been woeful. He was brought in to give us a fighting chance of staying up, we haven't come close.
Edit - Just saw your follow up post.
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https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1077446330?-11200:789
Just read this on sky
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What has he done to have earned it? Other than the very rare good performance (Wolves, Chelsea, Southampton) we've been woeful. He was brought in to give us a fighting chance of staying up, we haven't come close.
We've not been woeful, we've been far more competitive than we were previously and actually look like a Premier League side... He'd get the job for me solely on the January transfer window and the way he identified our issues within weeks of taking over after they were ignored for 2 and a half years.
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https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1077446330?-11200:789
just read this.
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We've not been woeful, we've been far more competitive than we were previously and actually look like a Premier League side... He'd get the job for me solely on the January transfer window and the way he identified our issues within weeks of taking over after they were ignored for 2 and a half years.
I agree, he definitely had a better transfer window than our summer one. However I can't think of many games other than the ones I mentioned where we've looked competitive and actually tried to win the game. We've had too many games where he's set the team up for a 0-0 with the faint hope of someone nicking a goal for us.
For me he's been a failure.
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I should clarify, if he wants to carry on after those 2 years... thought that was obvious from the flow of the post but it appears a few might need some help...
Hardly fantasy stuff to suggest the team with the highest budget and the best manager gets promoted at the first time of asking then survives the following year due to said manager who is renowned for doing just that... I'd suggest the fantasists are the ones predicting we won't get promoted next season if we go down and keep Allardyce.
Don't think anyone has even commented on that sentence, but feel free to get a bee in your bonnet about it anyway haha.
However, in the very very unlikely scenario that we want to keep Allardyce, he agrees to stay, we get promoted at the first time of asking, and we find ourselves half way up the Premier League the next season (would be interesting to know the odds on that accumulator, but they would be long), I don't think many would disagree that he had earned the right to carry on. But as I say, it's fantasy not reality. I notice you also still seem to hold out some hope that we may not go down this season. This is also fantasy.
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What has he done to have earned it? Other than the very rare good performance (Wolves, Chelsea, Southampton) we've been woeful. He was brought in to give us a fighting chance of staying up, we haven't come close.
Edit - Just saw your follow up post.
To be honest, if you judge the team from February onwards when he had a full transfer window to address our midfield issues then we’d be 14th in the league.
There is no denying that we have been far more competitive since the new additions and we should have accumulated more points. It is a travesty that we never beat either Burnley or Villa.
That being said, I do accept we were pathetic before a February but that is largely due to a shocking midfield personnel which are not good enough for this division and had been neglected in the summer.
The fact he addressed our weaknesses in January is a welcome relief after the neglect shown to them by bilic and Dowling .
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To be honest, if you judge the team from February onwards when he had a full transfer window to address our midfield issues then we’d be 14th in the league.
There is no denying that we have been far more competitive since the new additions and we should have accumulated more points. It is a travesty that we never beat either Burnley or Villa.
That being said, I do accept we were pathetic before a February but that is largely due to a shocking midfield personnel which are not good enough for this division and had been neglected in the summer.
The fact he addressed our weaknesses in January is a welcome relief after the neglect shown to them by bilic and Dowling .
It's the Sheff Utd & Newcastle games that stick in my head. They were both there for the taking but there was very little positive intent from us.
Even from February until the Chelsea game we had 8 matches and scored just 3 goals. We just haven't shown enough attacking intent in the games that we could / should have won. Draws were no good to us, we should have at least given it a go.
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It's the Sheff Utd & Newcastle games that stick in my head. They were both there for the taking but there was very little positive intent from us.
Even from February until the Chelsea game we had 8 matches and scored just 3 goals. We just haven't shown enough attacking intent in the games that we could / should have won. Draws were no good to us, we should have at least given it a go.
I think the other game that stands out in addition to the one you mention is the Palace game as I thought we were poor that day too.
Burnley, Chelsea, Southampton, Everton, Man United are games that stand out since February where we played good football and deserved more from them.
That being said, we still have some average personnel and there will be games where our performances are not at the standard we would like.
Had Allardyce continued the pre Christmas slump then there is no argument about his position. However the team since the January additions are a polar opposite. They are defensively sound, they are far more competitive and the football is better too. The work on the training pitch is noticeable.
The fact he has now turned an average bunch into a competent outfit is testament to his abilities. We are in an era without external investment and we need to make the most of our resources. Allardyce has shown he can do that and that is why I’d like him to stay.
Otherwise, in 18 months time the same people in charge are crying out for an Allardyce when the latest project they fail to back fails.
Good to see you posting, mate.
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The fact he addressed our weaknesses in January is a welcome relief after the neglect shown to them by bilic and Dowling .
Isn't it easier to address the weaknesses left when there's fewer of them though? I mean, we already had Pierera, Gallagher, Phillips, Robinson, Diangana, etc, and we'll never know, but I'm not convinced that we'd have carried on neglecting those areas when it was so obvious where we were weak. It's like someone spending a few years patching an old car up then selling it on when there's just a few things left to do on it and saying the new owner is a genius for fixing the engine.
We didn't strengthen the defence and that's been a weak spot all season too. Would we have conceded so many points if we'd also signed a CH instead of wasting money on Snodgrass? Or using Gallagher in the middle instead of AMN and using that money to sign a wingback or another CH?
I do think Sam has done well in the transfer market - just saying that his 'vision' to fix the weak spots hardly took vision and did rest on having some decent options in midfield and elsewhere. Lord knows where we'd be without Pierera in the side.
It's not so much the signings, or the lack of them before the window opened, but the approach that we took to games that raised alarm bells. I need to see more of this approach rather than the few performances at the end of the season where we've got to chuck everything we've got at it. Where was this approach in the earlier games?
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Big Sam, imo, has more proven experience, across all disciplines of managing and running a football team than the collective at the club at present.
He has raised the profile of the club in the short time he has been with us, reminiscent to when Big Ron arrived first time round and club profile will be crucial in player recruitment
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Are you suggesting we’ve been improving the team over the last couple of transfer windows? There were weaknesses all over the pitch and they were largely due to our approach of getting the old band back together in the summer.
The biggest weakness this team had was in midfield. There were members of this forum who were stating this during our championship season last year and the brilliance of Diangana and Pereira may have masked this issue. The fact that our only central midfield addition was to resign Krovinovic who barely started last season is neglect. Your assumption that it would have been addressed is not one I support when the issue was ignored in the summer despite its obvious frailties.
You claim we needed a centre half and I agreed in the summer - the signings of Ivanovic and Kipre have been disasters. Our biggest issue with our defenders though is that they received no protection from the midfield in front of them. It is no wonder they were so poor when they were so exposed. Those same defenders look far more solid because they have the appropriate protection in front of them since the additions of Yokuslu and AMN.
The fact that Bilic nor Dowling could not see that in the summer should set alarm bells ringing with everybody.
I have not been an ardent supporter of Allardyce and the period between October and January was one of the wretched times to be a supporter of this club. We weren’t good enough and the personnel reflected that. What we have now though is a far more competitive side, who defend much better as a team and look every inch like they deserve to be in this division. That is progress.
Is Allardyce a messiah? No. Will he frustrate the daylights out of us? Yes.
But he will probably leave this football club in much more stable and prosperous position should he be given the chsnce to do so.
He’s also our best chance of getting a change of ownership.
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Completely on the fence now about Allardyce. I did not want him and his brand Anywhere near our club.
However I do agree with much of what Liam has said. although my thoughts keep returning to the matches we might well have won if a more 'attacking' approach that suited the players we have got had been applied.
I do not see that Allardyce has been a 'success' in that we are now in the same position as when he took over and have been subjected to some horrendous defeats and awful performances, so I do not think he 'deserves' anything. On the other hand there have also been some very good games, (there were a couple of good performances even under the previous encumbent), that have given me hope even though we did not manage to get the wins we deserved.
Along with most of us I think, My preference would be for a brilliant young progressive manager, with a long term commitment, able to get the most from the players already here, persuade MP to stay along with at least Yokuslu from the on loan mob, or have the ability to find better replacements and sign them. The team should also play exciting attacking football and win games. Have no idea where this guy is going to come from so in his/her absence I unfortunately cannot see past Allardyce as our present best option, so I think at the moment my reluctant vote is that he stays.
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just read the article on sky, seems he is going to stay. Good news from my perspective, we need a base to rebuild.
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Excellent news if true. A bloke who knows what he is doing, won't take Dowlings nonsense, who i hope to see sacked regardless, and will keep on making improvements and taking the club in the right direction.
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Had the anomaly of the Chelsea result not happened, in which it took 2 injuries and a Chelsea red card for Sam to stumble upon a winning formula, would people still think he'd improved us and that we were more competitive? All credit to him for the Southampton game afterwards, but prior to the Chelsea game I don't think he's achieved anything that any other bang average manager wouldn't have achieved.
If Sam's biggest success with us is identifying the area we needed to improve most, then give him Dowling's job.
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the improvement in the team has been more than just Chelsea,
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Had the anomaly of the Chelsea result not happened, in which it took 2 injuries and a Chelsea red card for Sam to stumble upon a winning formula, would people still think he'd improved us and that we were more competitive? All credit to him for the Southampton game afterwards, but prior to the Chelsea game I don't think he's achieved anything that any other bang average manager wouldn't have achieved.
If Sam's biggest success with us is identifying the area we needed to improve most, then give him Dowling's job.
Can only compare his version of WBA to Bilic version and yes, much better IMO.
I think his transfer dealings are a sign of his knowledge of the game in spotting the things Bilic couldn't or wouldn't and no doubt his contacts built up through his life in the game are also an asset.
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Had the anomaly of the Chelsea result not happened, in which it took 2 injuries and a Chelsea red card for Sam to stumble upon a winning formula, would people still think he'd improved us and that we were more competitive? All credit to him for the Southampton game afterwards, but prior to the Chelsea game I don't think he's achieved anything that any other bang average manager wouldn't have achieved.
If Sam's biggest success with us is identifying the area we needed to improve most, then give him Dowling's job.
I agree with this, except giving him the keys to the till !
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Can only compare his version of WBA to Bilic version and yes, much better IMO.
I think his transfer dealings are a sign of his knowledge of the game in spotting the things Bilic couldn't or wouldn't and no doubt his contacts built up through his life in the game are also an asset.
Can we only, must we only consider Allardyce in comparison to Bilic?
Does he have no other qualities other than not being Bilic? We have to consider whether his type of football is suited to modern refereeing and modern man management of relatively expensive players.
I think we should be careful when mentioning some of the contacts that Big Sam has built up during "his life in the game"
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I for one am glad if its true he will be staying, we need to get a reality check if we think we can gamble on managers who have no track record.
I have every faith in him continuing the rebuild of our squad and we will be better prepared if we get back the first time of asking.
And I don't really care about his contacts, just as long as it works for us, I really do think we are at a dangerous cross road and feel it could go very pear shaped if we gamble with the wrong man.
He is not a Tony Pulis and has left clubs in a better state than when he arrived and he also has a massive advantage over others knowing exactly the squad we have and doesn't need to fiddle around until Christmas to decide who to get rid of.
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Can we only, must we only consider Allardyce in comparison to Bilic?
Does he have no other qualities other than not being Bilic? We have to consider whether his type of football is suited to modern refereeing and modern man management of relatively expensive players.
I think we should be careful when mentioning some of the contacts that Big Sam has built up during "his life in the game"
In response then yes i think so. The main theme running through this thread is has he improved us in comparison to before, before does mean Bilic and i think yes. Don't get me wrong he's not perfect and i do think he didn't do enough, or wasn't aggressive enough i should say to win that 4/5 game period. Despite that however i feel we are much improved under Sam.
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Unfortunately I've had to delete some well thought out responses due to talk of other managers suitability to the role. I must remind people that we do not speculate on others managers while we have somebody in place as manager.
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Along with most of us I think, My preference would be for a brilliant young progressive manager
Maybe we can sign the next Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo whilst were at it. :-)
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I really hope he stays next season. I was pleased when he was appointed but looking at his record, it takes him time to turn poor sides around. I think he has done that but too late but we will be in a good place in the championship even without MP and SJ who i am sure will go for big money.
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I'm all for Allardyce. At the time when Billic was fired I was astounded and gutted but like with Darren Moore, I wanted him to succeed so badly but the writing was on the wall.
In hindsight Allardyce in last summer would've had us safe already. I thought some posters calling for this were mad. He's addressed what we've been crying out for for a good few years. He knows the club now, knows what we need. If he wants to stay I can't see any logical reason as to why not. Part of my logic is largely based on post transfer window and not the early thrashings as I expect they were coming regardless of manager.
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Unfortunately I've had to delete some well thought out responses due to talk of other managers suitability to the role. I must remind people that we do not speculate on others managers while we have somebody in place as manager.
Accept your point but could you have just removed the three lines about other managers rather than delete a 40 line post that took 5 minutes to type?
Accept the rule, accept I erred, but just a thought...
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Accept your point but could you have just removed the three lines about other managers rather than delete a 40 line post that took 5 minutes to type?
Accept the rule, accept I erred, but just a thought...
I tell you what, i'll help you out via PM.
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Wonder how much appetite Allardyce has got for 2-3 more years in management with his health.
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Have mixed feelings on allardyce to be honest.
You cannot deny that he has improved our competitiveness over the last twelve games. Yes, we have been poor in some games but every team has been poor at times this season. We have also has stupid schedules of 10 days off and then 3 days between games. It cannot help.
He has addressed and identified an issue that fans have been shouting about since Mulumbu and Yacob left: no competitiveness or mobility in central midfield.
However, I am concerned about our defending so much at times. We need to be on the front front in the championship.
One thing we do need is stability. Sam knows the players, knows the gaps and clearly has contacts abroad, which we need given our scouting network appears very limited.
We will lose a lot of players in the summer - Pereira? Johnstone? But definitely Edwards, grosicki, Austin, Ivan, Gibbs, Field, HRK, 4 loan players, peltier.
14 players to replace - we don't have time to waste and need to act quickly. Faffing around with due diligence is not needed.
The moment we are relegated, Allardyce goes or stays. His replacement must be straight in.
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I tell you what, i'll help you out via PM.
Thank you. Appreciate you took the time to do that.
Moderating is thankless And I accept I was wrong.
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Have mixed feelings on allardyce to be honest.
You cannot deny that he has improved our competitiveness over the last twelve games. Yes, we have been poor in some games but every team has been poor at times this season. We have also has stupid schedules of 10 days off and then 3 days between games. It cannot help.
He has addressed and identified an issue that fans have been shouting about since Mulumbu and Yacob left: no competitiveness or mobility in central midfield.
However, I am concerned about our defending so much at times. We need to be on the front front in the championship.
One thing we do need is stability. Sam knows the players, knows the gaps and clearly has contacts abroad, which we need given our scouting network appears very limited.
We will lose a lot of players in the summer - Pereira? Johnstone? But definitely Edwards, grosicki, Austin, Ivan, Gibbs, Field, HRK, 4 loan players, peltier.
14 players to replace - we don't have time to waste and need to act quickly. Faffing around with due diligence is not needed.
The moment we are relegated, Allardyce goes or stays. His replacement must be straight in.
The first in line to agree with you on the boldened section would be Sam himself I reckon. Could see a new RB, LB and CB at the very least next season if he stayed.
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https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1077446330?-11200:789
Just read this on sky
Fishing for a pay off maybe?
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Fishing for a pay off maybe?
There is a well publicised break clause in the contract that kicks in at the end of the season. My guess is that there will be a severance payment built in if the club chooses to exercise it but nothing if he walks. Well bless my soul he won't be walking away.
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If Sam stays , and I hope he does , one of his hardest tasks will be to clear out some of those players still under contract . Probably accounts for at least 6, otherwise he’s not going to be able to bring in sufficient numbers to give us strength in depth .
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For me he’d be perfect for the champ and probably perfect for a return to the prem for a few seasons, let’s be honest here he isn’t a risk which at the present is something we don’t need to be taking.
We need to bounce right back up.
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I think we should appoint a forward looking and modern thinking manager, give him a 3 year contract, and stick with him for a minimum of 3 years.
Can just see it now. Kyle Bartley signs a further two year extension to his contract on the basis that no nonsense round peg in round hole Sam Allardyce has agreed to stay as Albion manager.
Sam Allardyce grows frustrated with a lack of transfer activity in the summer, cites differences between the club's aspirations and the delivery of tools to do the job as a reason to leave.
First day of pre season training in walks modern thinking manager on a three year contract saying 'hello everyone, nice to see some familiar faces' as Graeme Jones (or similar) walks through the door.
You'd have to hand it to Dowling and co', that would be top S housery ;D .
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If Sam stays , and I hope he does , one of his hardest tasks will be to clear out some of those players still under contract . Probably accounts for at least 6, otherwise he’s not going to be able to bring in sufficient numbers to give us strength in depth .
a) It is not Allardyce doing the "clearing out" it is the club
b) Aside from those that are salable into the Premier League (Pereira, Johnstone, Bartley(??) and Robinson (??)) none are easily moved on without using heavily subsidised loans or buying out their current contracts (this gives us less money to spend not more)
c) None of those currently under contract aren't at least decent back up options at Championship level unless rendered surplus to requirements either by the Head Coach's tactics or injury
d) If we are promoted the Championship squad depth has to be jettisoned see B and is a problem in Premier League before you even try to strengthen the first XI
e) The squad depth blocks pathways to the first team for the academy graduates.
f) We don't have the money to operate like this.
g) This is reason why you never hire a coach like Allardyce/Pulis/Pardew who always favour the journeyman pro hires can't work without "their" players and rely on squad churn to be remotely effective.
This is one of the key "footballing" reasons why I hope there is a parting of the ways.
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a) It is not Allardyce doing the "clearing out" it is the club
b) Aside from those that are salable into the Premier League (Pereira, Johnstone, Bartley(??) and Robinson (??)) none are easily moved on without using heavily subsidised loans or buying out their current contracts (this gives us less money to spend not more)
c) None of those currently under contract aren't at least decent back up options at Championship level unless rendered surplus to requirements either by the Head Coach's tactics or injury
d) If we are promoted the Championship squad depth has to be jettisoned see B and is a problem in Premier League before you even try to strengthen the first XI
e) The squad depth blocks pathways to the first team for the academy graduates.
f) We don't have the money to operate like this.
g) This is reason why you never hire a coach like Allardyce/Pulis/Pardew who always favour the journeyman pro hires can't work without "their" players and rely on squad churn to be remotely effective.
This is one of the key "footballing" reasons why I hope there is a parting of the ways.
I agree with a lot of that.
However, seems very harsh to brand any of Allardyce's signings thus far, aside from maybe Snodgrass as a journeyman and they certainly aren't hoofball merchants. Yokuslu, AMN have massively improved the standard of football we've been playing and are definitely not the typical Allardyce player. I'd be interested to see what he could do given a summer to build a side, he's certainly no Pulis and the odd experienced head helps massively in the Championship.
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Picking up a couple of points I tend to use phrase journeyman for any player whose best years are behind him who won't attract much of a fee should he move on from us and in many instances the last year of the contract is a bit of a bonus for player who by that stage of their career won't be giving us much. It is not a stylistic description e.g. hoofball merchant.
The only player signed by Allardyce permanently is Snodgrass and he is all of the above. The two most impressive signings are as Dave points out are Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles both on loan and neither will be with us next year. The only other signing and the one with some remote chance of being with us Diagne who is entering the journeyman stage of his career. I could believe he might be good for a season in the Championship but would need to be replaced on promotion as the twin challenges of age and stepping up in class would probably be too much to carry.
The base squad for next season is hardly inexperienced even allowing for replacing for Johnstone with Palmer only him and O'Shea of the likely regular starters would have less than 100 senior games under their belt and both would probably achieve that milestone during the season.
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Picking up a couple of points I tend to use phrase journeyman for any player whose best years are behind him who won't attract much of a fee should he move on from us and in many instances the last year of the contract is a bit of a bonus for player who by that stage of their career won't be giving us much. It is not a stylistic description e.g. hoofball merchant.
The only player signed by Allardyce permanently is Snodgrass and he is all of the above. The two most impressive signings are as Dave points out are Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles both on loan and neither will be with us next year. The only other signing and the one with some remote chance of being with us Diagne who is entering the journeyman stage of his career. I could believe he might be good for a season in the Championship but would need to be replaced on promotion as the twin challenges of age and stepping up in class would probably be too much to carry.
The base squad for next season is hardly inexperienced even allowing for replacing for Johnstone with Palmer only him and O'Shea of the likely regular starters would have less than 100 senior games under their belt and both would probably achieve that milestone during the season.
Again, I agree. A couple of experienced heads amongst a generally younger side in the Championship is the way to go.
Even though they're on loan, Allardyce still identified them as players that he wanted to fit his system. There is nothing to suggest he would move away from this during the summer once our fate has been sealed.
We have a very good core of players for the Championship, it would not need that much work doing to it. I feel you're being a little harsh on Allardyce, who took over at a bad time for us and in the past few weeks has served up better performances than anything we saw from Bilic.
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The reason they're on loan though is because that's the best we could do, i'm sure Sam would sign any of them permanently if possible.
Standaman, I believe in everything you say. I would love to see the club go in the direction that you see. I just don't think it will happen. Especially with Dowling as DoF and clueless non-football people above him. For that reason, I back Sam Allardyce to get us back up.
Long term - I want the same as you.
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Last night's match proved we were set up wrong against Leicester as you can not leave space behind your defence for speedy players to exploit.
Sam made an error.A tip for the Liverpool match-Don't water the pitch.Klopp moaned last time because we hadn't watered it at half time.
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Last night's match proved we were set up wrong against Leicester as you can not leave space behind your defence for speedy players to exploit.
Sam made an error.A tip for the Liverpool match-Don't water the pitch.Klopp moaned last time because we hadn't watered it at half time.
Or over water it into a quagmire, that would really annoy him
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Or over water it into a quagmire, that would really annoy him
Imagine Phillips and Kanu trying to run on that though? Would be like Takeshi's castle :D
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Sam Allardyce: West Brom manager told he was 'stupid' to consider career in football
The boy did good!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56964356
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Sam Allardyce set for crunch talks over West Brom future
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/05/02/sam-allardyce-set-crunch-talks-west-brom-future/
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Sam Allardyce is set for crunch talks with West Bromwich Albion this week over his future as manager.
Allardyce’s contract expires if Albion are relegated to the Championship and the former England manager is poised to hold detailed discussions with the hierarchy when the club know the outcome of their survival battle.
Albion must beat Wolves in Monday night’s Black Country derby to stand any chance of avoiding the drop, but there is an acceptance the club’s revival may have come too late.
With only three defeats from the last ten matches, Allardyce has impressed the club’s board and could stay on as manager in the Championship if he receives assurances over their plans for the future.
Talks are expected to start this week and will focus on the size of their transfer budget, the possibility of major sales and whether he has the desire to lead a promotion challenge in the second tier at the age of 66.
That is a discussion that cannot be done at this moment in time. It can only be done when our fate is sealed,†he said.
“If that’s what the club wants to do and that’s what I want to do, then there are certain criteria that we both have to meet, as there were when I joined.
“I don't think there will be any hesitation from both of us in sitting down for a couple of hours and ripping right through where we are and what we need to do, if we're in the Premier League or the Championship, and then find out which is the way forward.
“My job at the moment is to stay at West Brom and try to keep them in the Premier League. We have tried our best and now we’re in a position where I don’t think we can afford to lose any game from now until the end of the season.â€
Allardyce could secure a league double over their local rivals and lift the gloom from a difficult season, but knows a defeat will all but relegate the club.
Albion are 11 points adrift of safety, with a poor goal difference, and have only four games remaining after Monday night’s local derby.
It will be the first relegation of Allardyce’s career as a manager if he fails.
“I’d be more upset for the club than I would be for myself,†he said. “We have given our all to get the players to maintain our Premier League status. We might fall short but it hasn’t been for the want of trying.
“I would be disappointed to lose my record of always having kept a club up even though I have gone in under difficult circumstances, but we keep going.
“We can keep our hopes alive by beating Wolves, so let’s go and do that. I’d hate to go into the last few games with our fate already sealed.â€
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If Allardyce goes I fear for us. I really do.
And not only because I think he is the best obvious guarantee of a successful challenge for promotion (other options would be bigger gambles).
But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion.
He will surely stay if there’s a good shot at going back up. He’s 66, he may not get (or even want) another job and this is his chance to “repair†relegation from his impressive CV. He won’t want his last job to end this way after such a fantastic career in management.
If he goes, not only could it be very bad news for West Bromwich Albion in the manager’s office, it would be a clear sign we’re also gambling on getting back on the cheap.
The Premier League years could soon seem like the most golden of golden eras if that’s the way we go.
Wherever you stand on Allardyce, his departure would be a terrible signal for the future of the club.
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If Allardyce goes I fear for us. I really do.
And not only because I think he is the best obvious guarantee of a successful challenge for promotion (other options would be bigger gambles).
But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion.
He will surely stay if there’s a good shot at going back up. He’s 66, he may not get (or even want) another job and this is his chance to “repair†relegation from his impressive CV. He won’t want his last job to end this way after such a fantastic career in management.
If he goes, not only could it be very bad news for West Bromwich Albion in the manager’s office, it would be a clear sign we’re also gambling on getting back on the cheap.
The Premier League years could soon seem like the most golden of golden eras if that’s the way we go.
Wherever you stand on Allardyce, his departure would be a terrible signal for the future of the club.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. Will our better players want to stay if they see that Sam doesn’t have the confidence that we’ll be promoted?
For those who want to see Sam go, be careful what you wish for.
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If Allardyce goes I fear for us. I really do.
And not only because I think he is the best obvious guarantee of a successful challenge for promotion (other options would be bigger gambles).
But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion.
He will surely stay if there’s a good shot at going back up. He’s 66, he may not get (or even want) another job and this is his chance to “repair†relegation from his impressive CV. He won’t want his last job to end this way after such a fantastic career in management.
If he goes, not only could it be very bad news for West Bromwich Albion in the manager’s office, it would be a clear sign we’re also gambling on getting back on the cheap.
The Premier League years could soon seem like the most golden of golden eras if that’s the way we go.
Wherever you stand on Allardyce, his departure would be a terrible signal for the future of the club.
Oddly enough I don't agree with any of the above on any level.
If we go forward with Allardyce and I hope we don't at least both club and manager have a common understanding and have committed to a course of action. So Allardyce knows what the parameters that he is working to and if does not like them he goes now rather than latter.
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Oddly enough I don't agree with any of the above on any level.
Well you wouldnt would you?
Funnily enough I do kind of agree with you in so much as I dont see it as some sort of disaster if Allardyce goes. I dont necessarily see it as a sign of little intent, more that Allardyce is going to want things done his way and have a very major say in transfers. That may not be the way Albion decide to go.
Personally I do hope he stays but I don't think it's as big a deal as others may think.
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If Allardyce goes I fear for us. I really do.
And not only because I think he is the best obvious guarantee of a successful challenge for promotion (other options would be bigger gambles).
But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion.
He will surely stay if there’s a good shot at going back up. He’s 66, he may not get (or even want) another job and this is his chance to “repair†relegation from his impressive CV. He won’t want his last job to end this way after such a fantastic career in management.
If he goes, not only could it be very bad news for West Bromwich Albion in the manager’s office, it would be a clear sign we’re also gambling on getting back on the cheap.
The Premier League years could soon seem like the most golden of golden eras if that’s the way we go.
Wherever you stand on Allardyce, his departure would be a terrible signal for the future of the club.
The bit in bold I have issues with.
"But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion on his terms"
would be closer.
There will be cash available, but it will be limited (from what we know, there's unlikely to be any cash injections).
He may have to sell some of his better players to raise funds, & even then, there's no guarantee of promotion.
For me, I'd call it a day, the risks, to the football club, of raising enough funds to gain promotion the SA way, far outweigh those of bringing in a coach who will work with what we've got.
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I would have thought Allardyce for another season would be the way to go , he knows 90% of this squad are more than good enough at that level . Don't see why he would need to spend huge amounts either to bolster areas that will become vacant .
You could argue somebody new coming in will be a bigger risk especially if Dowling starts pulling a few Zohore's or Grosiki's .
It's all very well playing flowing football at that level but as seen with Bilic and Mowbray you soon get found out and trampled over week in week out when you do go up .
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Might be wrong but I seem to remember that most of the trampling on came about when we gave up trying to play to our attacking strengths, and played to our weaker defensive capabilities by sitting deep and trying to soak up pressure. Not arguing that we would have got more points by trying to play to our strengths, but we certainly did not do very well sitting deep did we?
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Might be wrong but I seem to remember that most of the trampling on came about when we gave up trying to play to our attacking strengths, and played to our weaker defensive capabilities by sitting deep and trying to soak up pressure. Not arguing that we would have got more points by trying to play to our strengths, but we certainly did not do very well sitting deep did we?
No but that goes back to not bringing in the correct players in the Summer and being naive enough to think we could get by particulary with a midfield that was already failing at the end of the previous season .
We could all see it , only Allardyce acted on it but sadly not quite quick enough . There wasn't a lot of attacking strengths at this level im my humble either .
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I would have thought Allardyce for another season would be the way to go , he knows 90% of this squad are more than good enough at that level . Don't see why he would need to spend huge amounts either to bolster areas that will become vacant .
You could argue somebody new coming in will be a bigger risk especially if Dowling starts pulling a few Zohore's or Grosiki's .
It's all very well playing flowing football at that level but as seen with Bilic and Mowbray you soon get found out and trampled over week in week out when you do go up .
What this overlooks is that to get promotion certainly via the automatics you need to go out and win games and when you have a talent advantage over the rest of the league then this best exploited by attacking football. The only two defense orientated teams I can remember getting promoted in recent years are Cardiff City and maybe Sheffield United.
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If Allardyce stays he stays-if he goes he goes. He spent a lot of his early games trying to assert his own way over the better stuff we had, when all we needed to improve us was a decent DM and a CF who could run about a bit and also read the game. If he had spotted the fact that we also needed a keeper who could find his way off the goal line to collect some easy crosses he would also have gone up in my estimation. However I do think that a new guy in the present ownership circumstances is probably too much of a risk and that for the moment 'better the devil you know' might well apply
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What this overlooks is that to get promotion certainly via the automatics you need to go out and win games and when you have a talent advantage over the rest of the league then this best exploited by attacking football. The only two defense orientated teams I can remember getting promoted in recent years are Cardiff City and maybe Sheffield United.
Appreciate your feelings on Allardyce but one thing he does do is adapt . Would it be thrilling ?...no probably not but it would be effective .
Plenty I don't like about him but he's not daft.
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If Allardyce stays he stays-if he goes he goes. He spent a lot of his early games trying to assert his own way over the better stuff we had, when all we needed to improve us was a decent DM and a CF who could run about a bit and also read the game. If he had spotted the fact that we also needed a keeper who could find his way off the goal line to collect some easy crosses he would also have gone up in my estimation. However I do think that a new guy in the present ownership circumstances is probably too much of a risk and that for the moment 'better the devil you know' might well apply
Agree with most of that especially with owners who want out .
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The bit in bold I have issues with.
"But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion on his terms"
would be closer.
There will be cash available, but it will be limited (from what we know, there's unlikely to be any cash injections).
He may have to sell some of his better players to raise funds, & even then, there's no guarantee of promotion.
For me, I'd call it a day, the risks, to the football club, of raising enough funds to gain promotion the SA way, far outweigh those of bringing in a coach who will work with what we've got.
Diametrically the complete opposite for me. But it’s all about opinions.
The biggest risk IMHO is we bring in an “up and coming†progressive coach who fails, and the risks of being marooned in the Championship “far outweigh†the safer bet offered by an experienced coach with a track record.
It’s always a balance of judgement and risk. I personally think our % chances of promotion (and therefore improved finances) are better by supporting Allardyce than going “cheap†and hiring “potential.â€
There are of course no guarantees either way - and a new coach could turn out to be a genius. But pragmatically I think that is much the bigger gamble in assessing risk.
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Bloke looks and sounds bored stiff half the time during interviews. If he ever gets around to reading this thread it'd probably finish him off completely. Wonder if he snores, probably. Does he give a big balti dump? Doubt it ;D .
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As Stan has alluded to, 2 statistics stand out to me and shed some light on my wider Allardyce/Championship concerns.
Number 1 - our run of must win games vs sides mid table or below that ultimately relegated us
Burnley - Draw
Brighton - Win under extremely lucky circumstances
Everton - Lost
Newcastle - Draw
Palace - Lost
Goals scored in those 5 games = 1
Points 5 out of a possible 15
Number 2 - Allardyce in the championship
2000 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2001 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2012 - West Ham Utd (play offs)
In al of thise seasons, Allardyce had a side containing players just relegated from the premier league. At different times, he had the likes of Eidur Gudjohnson, Kevin Nolan, Jussi Jaaskelinan, Ricardo Gardner, Michael Ricketts, James Tomkins, Mark Noble, Rob Green, Winston Reid, Carlton Cole, Gary O'Neil. Basically premier league players at the time playing championship football. He was never able to get any of those sides into the top 2.
You need a manager who wins games rather than doesn't lose then when trying to get automatic promotion. Allardyce's style suits staying in a league, but not necessarily getting out of one.
Next season, we will have a huge financial advantage over the rest of the league. Providing Brentford or Bournemouth get promotion via the playoffs, we will basically be competing with 2 or 3 other teams for the top 2 spots. We should really be targeting the automatics and not just the top 6.
I'd roll the dice.
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If Allardyce goes I fear for us. I really do.
And not only because I think he is the best obvious guarantee of a successful challenge for promotion (other options would be bigger gambles).
But above all because it will be a clear sign he doesn’t rate the club’s ambition to win promotion.
He will surely stay if there’s a good shot at going back up. He’s 66, he may not get (or even want) another job and this is his chance to “repair†relegation from his impressive CV. He won’t want his last job to end this way after such a fantastic career in management.
If he goes, not only could it be very bad news for West Bromwich Albion in the manager’s office, it would be a clear sign we’re also gambling on getting back on the cheap.
The Premier League years could soon seem like the most golden of golden eras if that’s the way we go.
Wherever you stand on Allardyce, his departure would be a terrible signal for the future of the club.
Guarantee?
That’s huge word....
We have got up and stayed in the prem with other managers so he is by no means the silver bullet.
I also don’t think it would be any sign about gambling on the cheap if he goes.....what if in negotiations he says he wants free reign and 100m pot....we would be stupid to allow him to bring in Carroll,Nolan,various other middle aged cloggers that he “knowsâ€
We may have beaten Chelsea 5-2 ....after they had a man sent off , but are we just going to forget the injuries that forced that selection, forget how he played pereria in the wrong position or the spankings we were getting regularly when he rocked up ( this is the bit where people that laud him as the saviour will then say that he needs 10 games to change us but expect others to work magic overnight )?
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As Stan has alluded to, 2 statistics stand out to me and shed some light on my wider Allardyce/Championship concerns.
Number 1 - our run of must win games vs sides mid table or below that ultimately relegated us
Burnley - Draw
Brighton - Win under extremely lucky circumstances
Everton - Lost
Newcastle - Draw
Palace - Lost
Goals scored in those 5 games = 1
Points 5 out of a possible 15
Number 2 - Allardyce in the championship
2000 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2001 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2012 - West Ham Utd (play offs)
In al of thise seasons, Allardyce had a side containing players just relegated from the premier league. At different times, he had the likes of Eidur Gudjohnson, Kevin Nolan, Jussi Jaaskelinan, Ricardo Gardner, Michael Ricketts, James Tomkins, Mark Noble, Rob Green, Winston Reid, Carlton Cole, Gary O'Neil. Basically premier league players at the time playing championship football. He was never able to get any of those sides into the top 2.
You need a manager who wins games rather than doesn't lose then when trying to get automatic promotion. Allardyce's style suits staying in a league, but not necessarily getting out of one.
Next season, we will have a huge financial advantage over the rest of the league. Providing Brentford or Bournemouth get promotion via the playoffs, we will basically be competing with 2 or 3 other teams for the top 2 spots. We should really be targeting the automatics and not just the top 6.
I'd roll the dice.
I have massive respect for that level , it was our bread and butter for many years but IMO its much weaker now and thats before the full covid finance stuff hits .
I'd back Allardyce to get us up if he stays , I don't think he will If I'm honest .
Rolling the dice is a huge , huge gamble for owners who want out yet want top money for the club .
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Guarantee?
That’s huge word....
We have got up and stayed in the prem with other managers so he is by no means the silver bullet.
I also don’t think it would be any sign about gambling on the cheap if he goes.....what if in negotiations he says he wants free reign and 100m pot....we would be stupid to allow him to bring in Carroll,Nolan,various other middle aged cloggers that he “knowsâ€
We may have beaten Chelsea 5-2 ....after they had a man sent off , but are we just going to forget the injuries that forced that selection, forget how he played pereria in the wrong position or the spankings we were getting regularly when he rocked up ( this is the bit where people that laud him as the saviour will then say that he needs 10 games to change us but expect others to work magic overnight )?
Whatever they do, let’s hope they get it right.
Allardyce has a successful track record. We don’t know how that stacks up against whoever we might replace him with. I prefer that option until I know there are others that look better. Perhaps the Board have such attractive alternatives?
I wouldn’t bet on it.
If they get this one wrong on a roll of the dice we could be in for a very long, dark period.
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Re promotion via the playoffs. The only guarantee Albion and clubs our size have in football is that when we get promoted there's going to come a time when we get relegated. One thing's for certain though. Give me a Wembley win and a celebration to match over a damp squib of a draw against QPR any day of the week.
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I have massive respect for that level , it was our bread and butter for many years but IMO its much weaker now and thats before the full covid finance stuff hits .
I'd back Allardyce to get us up if he stays , I don't think he will If I'm honest .
Rolling the dice is a huge , huge gamble for owners who want out yet want top money for the club .
This is what I’m alluding to really - while most years you wouldn’t just automatically expect the relegated sides to go straight back up, this year that feels much more likely. Last summer many predicted the relegated sides with a huge financial advantage would do very well and sure enough, 2 of them achieved automatic promotion with some time to spare while the third managed the play offs comfortably.
2 of them managed that while changing managers mid season - not being top 2 from the start was seen as failure under the circumstances.
Next season will be just the same. All 3 of the relegated clubs will be in the top 6 barring awful seasons. That for me negates the attractiveness of Allardyce’s top 6 guarantee. Top 6 isn’t good enough - in these unique circumstances we should be looking to achieve a comfortable top 2 finish before normal service likely resumes in the 2022-23 season when clubs have more money again.
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I wouldn't mind if we let Allardyce have a go at getting us back up at the first attempt BUT what happens then when we've got a squad full of Allardyce type players and inevitably a new guy comes in. He is 66 now and will surely want to retire fairly soon I would imagine. It may just be best to say thanks and pass him the P45.
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As Stan has alluded to, 2 statistics stand out to me and shed some light on my wider Allardyce/Championship concerns.
Number 1 - our run of must win games vs sides mid table or below that ultimately relegated us
Burnley - Draw
Brighton - Win under extremely lucky circumstances
Everton - Lost
Newcastle - Draw
Palace - Lost
Goals scored in those 5 games = 1
Points 5 out of a possible 15
Number 2 - Allardyce in the championship
2000 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2001 - Bolton Wanderers (play offs)
2012 - West Ham Utd (play offs)
In al of thise seasons, Allardyce had a side containing players just relegated from the premier league. At different times, he had the likes of Eidur Gudjohnson, Kevin Nolan, Jussi Jaaskelinan, Ricardo Gardner, Michael Ricketts, James Tomkins, Mark Noble, Rob Green, Winston Reid, Carlton Cole, Gary O'Neil. Basically premier league players at the time playing championship football. He was never able to get any of those sides into the top 2.
You need a manager who wins games rather than doesn't lose then when trying to get automatic promotion. Allardyce's style suits staying in a league, but not necessarily getting out of one.
Next season, we will have a huge financial advantage over the rest of the league. Providing Brentford or Bournemouth get promotion via the playoffs, we will basically be competing with 2 or 3 other teams for the top 2 spots. We should really be targeting the automatics and not just the top 6.
I'd roll the dice.
Eidur Gudjohnsson had left Bolton by the start of the 2000/01 season.
Most of the other players listed would be described as Championship standard players playing in the PL, I mean Carlton Cole, Winston Reid, Michael Ricketts, Ricardo Gardner. The rest I'd agree were PL quality players.
He was in charge for 35 games in 99-2000 season and won 17, drew 8 and lost 10, they finished 6 and still got to the play off final.
The next season they finished 3rd, 4 points behind Blackburn in 2nd but 9 points above PNE in 4th. They won 24, drew 15 and lost only 7 with a +31 GD.
His West Ham side only lost 8 games all season, won 24 and drew 14 scored 81 and a +33 GD. They finished 3 points behind the winners Reading and 2 behind 2nd place Soton.
Not seeing anything other than playing to win football there.
If we'd have gone up under Moore/Shan through the play offs I'm not sure there would have been too many saying...well it's not good enough we should have gone up automatically.
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.......If we'd have gone up under Moore/Shan through the play offs I'm not sure there would have been too many saying...well it's not good enough we should have gone up automatically.
Too right. It would have meant we'd have beaten the Vile on the way to Wembley. They'd have been managerial Gods in my eyes. And we could have jettisoned Jones for a less idealistic assistant for Darren. Sliding doors.......
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Allardyce took over Bolton in October 1999 - he had near enough a whole season with Gudjohnson so feels fair to include him.
Carlton Cole played 7 times for England and the majority of his career at a top flight level, Ricketts also played for England while Winston Reid has been a solid prem player for the last decade, ditto Gardner who played in the prem for a decade under Allardyce.
I'm not dismissing the play offs under normal circumstances and I'd make a strong case that we won't lose many under Allardyce next season, but with the advantages we have available, does Allardyce have a track record of taking good sides into automatic promotion? His 3 attempts so far- all with relatively strong sides resulted in the play offs.
It's something to consider when weighing up his pros and cons.
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Guarantee?
That’s huge word....
We have got up and stayed in the prem with other managers so he is by no means the silver bullet.
I also don’t think it would be any sign about gambling on the cheap if he goes.....what if in negotiations he says he wants free reign and 100m pot....we would be stupid to allow him to bring in Carroll,Nolan,various other middle aged cloggers that he “knowsâ€
We may have beaten Chelsea 5-2 ....after they had a man sent off , but are we just going to forget the injuries that forced that selection, forget how he played pereria in the wrong position or the spankings we were getting regularly when he rocked up ( this is the bit where people that laud him as the saviour will then say that he needs 10 games to change us but expect others to work magic overnight )?
No one manager has EVER got us promoted and kept us up the following season in the Premier League era.
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No one manager has EVER got us promoted and kept us up the following season in the Premier League era.
True, but in typically Albion style we did manage to appoint one who kept us in Premier League only to oversee our relegation the following season ;D .
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I think Bolton is long enough ago to consider football has changed a lot. You could say the same for West Ham really, and don't forget the West Ham fans protested about Sam and his quality of football, despite being in the playoffs.
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I think Bolton is long enough ago to consider football has changed a lot. You could say the same for West Ham really, and don't forget the West Ham fans protested about Sam and his quality of football, despite being in the playoffs.
They were also very annoyed at the appointment of Moyes for the same reason.
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No one manager has EVER got us promoted and kept us up the following season in the Premier League era.
I worded it wrong, I meant
Others got us up
Others kept us up
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Allardyce took over Bolton in October 1999 - he had near enough a whole season with Gudjohnson so feels fair to include him.
Carlton Cole played 7 times for England and the majority of his career at a top flight level, Ricketts also played for England while Winston Reid has been a solid prem player for the last decade, ditto Gardner who played in the prem for a decade under Allardyce.
I'm not dismissing the play offs under normal circumstances and I'd make a strong case that we won't lose many under Allardyce next season, but with the advantages we have available, does Allardyce have a track record of taking good sides into automatic promotion? His 3 attempts so far- all with relatively strong sides resulted in the play offs.
It's something to consider when weighing up his pros and cons.
There are many players that have played a lot of games in the PL but aren't very good ..our own Livermore has played 195 times in the PL...he has also played 7 times for England.
Winston Reid has played 166 times in the Pl in the last decade although he has had a lot of injuries, but he has been on loan at Kansas City and now Brentford (and been either a non used sub or not in the squad for their last 8 games), hard to say if he's a solid premier league player really.
At the end of the day whether it's automatically or through the play offs the end result is the same.
What I'm more concerned with is does Allardyce keep sides in the Pl once he's got them promoted? The answer is yes.
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The easy thing for Dowling to do is just to sit down with Allardyce and reach an agreement. However, I think he's paid to do a bit more, in other words to think a bit about what's in the long term interests of the club.
I'd love to see an intelligent manager with a progressive and attacking football style appointed, a Ralf Rangnick type, who can set out a long term vision for the club. Even though some of Allardyce's football has been acceptable, you know he will want to bring in a couple of tried and trusted routiners, to do a job, though hopefully even he wouldn't gamble on Nolan or Carroll. He doesn't seem to be a manager with much faith in the youth academy. I'd like to think he could attract another Yokulusu, but I doubt he could manage that in the Championship. So it will be a short-term fix with Sam, and even if we get promoted, we will be back to square one.
However, I accept that finding the right alternative will not be easy, especially if we are just relying on Luke Dowling to find that man.
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After his team selection for Dingles game which he played like a game we must not lose I'm of the opinion that he's not the man for us in Championship. Football has moved on but he's still too pragmatic even when we need to win, tonight just another example of that.
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Pathetic team selection , and to take off Oshea when Ajayi was impersonating a clown was disgusting. Allardyce is destroying the kid, as well as shutting out players we are going to rely on next season. Not for me thank you.
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After his team selection for Dingles game which he played like a game we must not lose I'm of the opinion that he's not the man for us in Championship. Football has moved on but he's still too pragmatic even when we need to win, tonight just another example of that.
No qualms with the starting line-up based on the very recent Leicester game. If anything his changing it very early is the sign of a good tactician. Plenty would have tried to persevere.
A good manager, and I don't believe there is any better out there available to us if we go down.
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No qualms with the starting line-up based on the very recent Leicester game. If anything his changing it very early is the sign of a good tactician. Plenty would have tried to persevere.
A good manager, and I don't believe there is any better out there available to us if we go down.
I’m with you Jacko 👍🏻
Big Sam has done enough for me to be in charge next season.
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The easy thing for Dowling to do is just to sit down with Allardyce and reach an agreement. However, I think he's paid to do a bit more, in other words to think a bit about what's in the long term interests of the club.
I'd love to see an intelligent manager with a progressive and attacking football style appointed, a Ralf Rangnick type, who can set out a long term vision for the club. Even though some of Allardyce's football has been acceptable, you know he will want to bring in a couple of tried and trusted routiners, to do a job, though hopefully even he wouldn't gamble on Nolan or Carroll. He doesn't seem to be a manager with much faith in the youth academy. I'd like to think he could attract another Yokulusu, but I doubt he could manage that in the Championship. So it will be a short-term fix with Sam, and even if we get promoted, we will be back to square one.
However, I accept that finding the right alternative will not be easy, especially if we are just relying on Luke Dowling to find that man.
If sam got us back up I’d be pretty confident that he would keep us there - consolidate then we look at a new coach once we are settled.
I think he is the best chance of us getting back and staying in the prem.
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It's still a no for me.
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No qualms with the starting line-up based on the very recent Leicester game. If anything his changing it very early is the sign of a good tactician. Plenty would have tried to persevere.
A good manager, and I don't believe there is any better out there available to us if we go down.
Agreed Jacko.
No problem with the starting line up and he didnt wait too long to change it.
Doing a good job with what he has at his disposal.
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I’m with you Jacko 👍🏻
Big Sam has done enough for me to be in charge next season.
He’s a negative, backward, safety-first, stuck in the mud has been.
Taking off O’Shea instead on Donkey Semi was the last straw.
Thanks and good luck Sam.
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He’s a negative, backward, safety-first, stuck in the mud has been.
Taking off O’Shea instead on Donkey Semi was the last straw.
Thanks and good luck Sam.
But it's obvious why he did that...
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But it's obvious why he did that...
Yep because they had an olympic sprinter up front who could basically give Dara 10 yards.
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A few weeks ago I put up Allardyce's win percentage. It was incorrect due to missing out the Brighton win, anyway, I've redone it.
Allardyce currently sits on an 18% win percentage. Fail to beat Arsenal or Liverpool and that will drop down to 16.6%.
It's better than Alan Pardew's 14.3% win ratio but worse than Irvine's 22.7% and would be worse than Pepe Mel's 17.6%.
Playing for pride now - I hope he goes for it and used players who will be here next season in attacking set ups
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He’s a negative, backward, safety-first, stuck in the mud has been.
Taking off O’Shea instead on Donkey Semi was the last straw.
Thanks and good luck Sam.
I will say I was surprised Dara went off and not Semi.
It didn’t bite us on the **** fortunately but I personally would have taken Semi off.
I’ve seen enough of Semi and I don’t really rate him. Certainly not at this level.
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He’s a negative, backward, safety-first, stuck in the mud has been.
Taking off O’Shea instead on Donkey Semi was the last straw.
Thanks and good luck Sam.
As much as I’m no fan of Ajayi surely it is obvious to really anyone that he was kept on as he is the only one who can possibly just about keep up with Traore :-\
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Yep because they had an olympic sprinter up front who could basically give Dara 10 yards.
Ajayi is being picked because he can run fast, and he might just get a goal from a dead-ball situation. Unfortunately he is a **** poor defender.
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But it's obvious why he did that...
Yerra stop will ya
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No qualms with the starting line-up based on the very recent Leicester game. If anything his changing it very early is the sign of a good tactician. Plenty would have tried to persevere.
A good manager, and I don't believe there is any better out there available to us if we go down.
A sign of a good tactician is not one who needs to change it after 30 mins because he's, once agains, set up too defensively. "Plenty" would have set us up to play to our strengths, not our weaknesses.
Sam's shown that he just can't take the game to the opposition. We're further off safety than when he arrived. We're as good as down. We've been tanked several times. Our approach to games has been baffling at best. He's isolated and fell out with talented players. Even our 'turnaround' performance was due to luck thanks to injuries and a red card. As soon as there's a result he doesn't like it's straight back to type. Even the Okay and Diagne signings were already on our radar in the summer.
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I’m with you Jacko 👍🏻
Big Sam has done enough for me to be in charge next season.
He's taken us from 3pts off safety, to 10pts off safety.
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A few weeks ago I put up Allardyce's win percentage. It was incorrect due to missing out the Brighton win, anyway, I've redone it.
Allardyce currently sits on an 18% win percentage. Fail to beat Arsenal or Liverpool and that will drop down to 16.6%.
It's better than Alan Pardew's 14.3% win ratio but worse than Irvine's 22.7% and would be worse than Pepe Mel's 17.6%.
Playing for pride now - I hope he goes for it and used players who will be here next season in attacking set ups
Up from 7.69% though...
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The formation wasn't the issue, it was the mentality the players were sent out with. It's like they were defending 1-0 lead from the kick off. Baffling considering the situation we're in and the fact Wolves had just been thumped by a poor Burnley side.
Although the formation change midway through the half helped, we'd already allowed a fragile Wolves side to settle into the game and regain their confidence. Would have loved to have seen how Wolves would have coped if we'd attacked from the off.
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No qualms with the starting line-up based on the very recent Leicester game. If anything his changing it very early is the sign of a good tactician. Plenty would have tried to persevere.
A good manager, and I don't believe there is any better out there available to us if we go down.
bloke is ultra negative had five defenders on with full backs tucked in when opposition had ball. In front of them where a deep lying Okay, with Gallagher and AMN just in front of him not 30 yards from our goal. Our attacking threat was nonexistent as our only two forward players were also in our half trying to get involved in game. Now remember this is a game that we had to win just like against Newcastle, Fulham and Sheffield United same defensive tactics used which from the goals conceded column isn't playing to our strengths also we let a team who were coming off a spanking get more than a foothold in match and your happy with his selection?
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A few weeks ago I put up Allardyce's win percentage. It was incorrect due to missing out the Brighton win, anyway, I've redone it.
Allardyce currently sits on an 18% win percentage. Fail to beat Arsenal or Liverpool and that will drop down to 16.6%.
It's better than Alan Pardew's 14.3% win ratio but worse than Irvine's 22.7% and would be worse than Pepe Mel's 17.6%.
Playing for pride now - I hope he goes for it and used players who will be here next season in attacking set ups
I'm not sure using these figures is entirely fair. Allardyce had no influence on the squad until the very end of January. If you then gave him a few games to set up the team in his way (a bit like he would normally in a pre-season) and you count the games from then on I think the figures would look very different. Irvine had a full pre-season and Pardew took over in November. Only Pepe Mel had a similar task to Allardyce and even then you could argue he took over a team who were much better placed in 14th spot.
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I know people for some reason hate Allardyce but surely his biggest hater can’t say that he hasn’t improved us immensely since he has come in
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The formation wasn't the issue, it was the mentality the players were sent out with. It's like they were defending 1-0 lead from the kick off. Baffling considering the situation we're in and the fact Wolves had just been thumped by a poor Burnley side.
Although the formation change midway through the half helped, we'd already allowed a fragile Wolves side to settle into the game and regain their confidence. Would have loved to have seen how Wolves would have coped if we'd attacked from the off.
I don't think they would have coped at all. They're notoriously fragile in the first half this season. Don't forget, we were the home team as well, we basically set up like a League 2 team playing away to Liverpool.
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How many more times until it sinks in? This is not a Bilic v Allardyce thread, if you want to do it then start a new topic.
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He's taken us from 3pts off safety, to 10pts off safety.
I fear the 10 point deficit would have been larger was he not in charge.
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I fear the 10 point deficit would have been larger was he not in charge.
Agreed. I think we would have been at least 10 points worse off and we'll adrift
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I know people for some reason hate Allardyce but surely his biggest hater can’t say that he hasn’t improved us immensely since he has come in
I think if we had a more attack minded player with this squad we'd have done immensely better. I think the signing of Okay was excellent, Snodgrass really poor, AMN is decent, Diagne.... probably the best we could get. We were interested in Okay and Diagne in the summer so I'm not entirely sure we can give Sam all the credit for those. Credit for bringing them in if it's him that has final say I guess?
I genuinely don't know how anyone can watch us defend and think the best way for us to play is to set up to defend. We all know how poor our defence is, so why use tactics that make them do as much work as possible? Time and time again under Sam we've done the same, and time and time again it hasn't worked.
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I know people for some reason hate Allardyce but surely his biggest hater can’t say that he hasn’t improved us immensely since he has come in
Improved yes, but immensely is questionable.
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Don't know why you're mentioning his predecessor in this thread - this is about Sam. Sam has had two thirds of the season.
I guess if you're want to go with the "points per game stat" then maybe you can dig out, since Sam's arrival, what the points per game of our rivals have been compared to ours. That should give you a measure of how well Sam has done.
He's taken us 3pts from safety to 10pts from safety. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand that stat. His job was to close that gap and put distance behind it. Instead he's made it worse.
It's not like the teams above us have all gone on amazing runs and look like they're going to get 45 pts or anything.
As it happens the teams above Fulham HAVE all exceeded expectations points wise, also we were simply too far behind the run-rate when he took over. It's extremely uncommon for 38 points not to be enough to keep a side up.
The stat you keep mentioning is merely due to the passage of time, amazed you think anyone is misunderstanding what you're saying when the "3 points then, 10 points now" shout is an utterly valueless fact in the debate.
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I fear the 10 point deficit would have been larger was he not in charge.
Agreed - I was not a big fan and disappointed by his appointment. However, I now firmly believe he is the best person for the job next season. He knows the squad. He knows the weaknesses and what will need to be done. It will be too chaotic a summer with players out of contract, offers coming in for better players and loanees returning to their clubs for any new head coach to come in.
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I fear the 10 point deficit would have been larger was he not in charge.
No way of knowing is there? Seems crazy to me to say that Sam has done a good job because your imaginary replacement would have done worse. For all we know one might have done better.
All we can judge Sam on are his results and performances, and for me we've been tactically lacking and we've falled further and further behind the pack.
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I know people for some reason hate Allardyce but surely his biggest hater can’t say that he hasn’t improved us immensely since he has come in
Well, he made the team a lot worse than it was before and then post the January signings has made them a bit better than what he inherited. So the team yes is better now, no longer losing embarrassingly like they did when he first took over and we got hammered for a month or two; but that in itself was a downgrade of his making. Overall I'd give Allardyce 3/5 on the scorecard. Some success and some failure, not good enough to keep us up.
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Well, he made the team a lot worse than it was before and then post the January signings has made them a bit better than what he inherited. So the team yes is better now, no longer losing embarrassingly like they did when he first took over and we got hammered for a month or two; but that in itself was a downgrade of his making. Overall I'd give Allardyce 3/5 on the scorecard. Some success and some failure, not good enough to keep us up.
Viagra wouldn't have kept us up this season (that's not a foreign Head Coach either!).
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No way of knowing is there? Seems crazy to me to say that Sam has done a good job because your imaginary replacement would have done worse. For all we know one might have done better.
All we can judge Sam on are his results and performances, and for me we've been tactically lacking and we've falled further and further behind the pack.
I think most disappointing has been the overly negative set-up and failure to use the bench in must win games during the run-in against the teams around us and in mid-table. He's fallen out with Dianganna and placed his pride above giving the lad even ten minutes against tiring legs.
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Viagra wouldn't have kept us up this season (that's not a foreign Head Coach either!).
Yeah, I said that back in August and ever since. But Allardyce still deserves a lot of stick for the turning us into a none-league outfit over December. Just as I'll give him some credit for improving our competitiveness since his January signings have come in.
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As it happens the teams above Fulham HAVE all exceeded expectations points wise, also we were simply too far behind the run-rate when he took over. It's extremely uncommon for 38 points not to be enough to keep a side up.
The stat you keep mentioning is merely due to the passage of time, amazed you think anyone is misunderstanding what you're saying when the "3 points then, 10 points now" shout is an utterly valueless fact in the debate.
Of course it isn't. How else do you judge a manager when he was brought in to do a specific job. You judge him on close he was to succeeding in that job. And he's fallen well short.
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Of course it isn't. How else do you judge a manager when he was brought in to do a specific job. You judge him on close he was to succeeding in that job. And he's fallen well short.
We are aren't going to get close to 38 points, so whilst it is true that the premiership is of a better standard in the bottom third this season it's not relevant to our relegation. It was always unrealistic to expect survival this season with our squad and budget.
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We are aren't going to get close to 38 points, so whilst it is true that the premiership is of a better standard in the bottom third this season it's not relevant to our relegation. It was always unrealistic to expect survival this season with our squad and budget.
It's helped by Sheff Utd giving so many points away but back when Sam took over 38 pts was within our reach.
Just think back to the points we've thrown away against our relegation rivals. If Sam had approached those games like he did the Chelsea and Southampton, then I am sure we would have picked up some more points. Instead he's opted to rely on a defence that isn't good enough too often. Today is just another example of that. Even if we didn't pick up the points I wouldn't have been so criticial because at least you could see that we were playing to our strengths. This squad is never going to be good at setting up to defend.
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No way of knowing is there? Seems crazy to me to say that Sam has done a good job because your imaginary replacement would have done worse. For all we know one might have done better.
All we can judge Sam on are his results and performances, and for me we've been tactically lacking and we've falled further and further behind the pack.
I wasn’t thinking of an imaginary manager. I was thinking had we stuck with Bilić until the end of the season when I posted.
Our squad hasn’t been strong enough to survive this season. Given its weaknesses, I’m happy with Big Sam overall.
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As it happens the teams above Fulham HAVE all exceeded expectations points wise, also we were simply too far behind the run-rate when he took over. It's extremely uncommon for 38 points not to be enough to keep a side up.
The stat you keep mentioning is merely due to the passage of time, amazed you think anyone is misunderstanding what you're saying when the "3 points then, 10 points now" shout is an utterly valueless fact in the debate.
It’s definitely been a stronger premier league than many have given it credit for this year and the points total that 17th will finish with is going to be much higher than usual. It would be a fair excuse for Allardyce had we finished on 36 points or around that mark, but in reality we are on 26 points and at no point in his tenure have we really looked like challenging 17th place.
It was always a tough assignment and I do tend to agree that he would have done better over a full season had he been given a summer transfer window, but even post his January spending we have only won 3 games out of 12 (going from the Spurs game which is the first he had everyone available).
The job he has done has been very D+.
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I wasn’t thinking of an imaginary manager. I was thinking had we stuck with Bilić until the end of the season when I posted.
Our squad hasn’t been strong enough to survive this season. Given its weaknesses, I’m happy with Big Sam overall.
It's still entirely hypothetical though - all we can do is judge Sam off *his* performances and results. Comparing to them to what we might have got with someone else in charge seems crazy to me, you could make any argument for anyone if that's the case.
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I know people for some reason hate Allardyce but surely his biggest hater can’t say that he hasn’t improved us immensely since he has come in
err I can, we are in the same position in the table but playing negatively - Bore off Sam !
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Overall, I would say the glass is half full for me with Allardyce. I won't criticise him for taking us down as that was very probably the outcome from July. He has had some failure and some success. If he wants to stay we should back him to get us promoted at the first attempt. That said a reasonable argument can be made to get rid as well, so can I've understand why some will take a different view on this.
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Overall, I would say the glass is half full for me with Allardyce. I won't criticise him for taking us down as that was very probably the outcome from July. He has had some failure and some success. If he wants to stay we should back him to get us promoted at the first attempt. That said a reasonable argument can be made to get rid as well, so can I've understand why some will take a different view on this.
My views are much like the above plus I wouldn't trust Dowling one bit .Plenty I don't like about Sam but at the same time it might be better the devil you know .
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Having read and attempted to contribute to some well thought out arguments and opinions regarding Allardyce, I was almost ready to change my original opinion about this man being in charge here next season. Having re-read most of the stuff and tried to look at it in a fair and logical manner. I have come to the conclusion that most of the support for him is based on the sole fact that he is not Bilic. Anybody can: and they do, keep on making the same old excuses for him, 'the squad was poor, unbalanced could not defend was not fit' etc. any or all of which may or may not be true. Allardyce was brought in and given resources to do one thing - keep us up. He has failed. We are no better after absorbing his philosophy and tactical set up, and hardly any of our players has improved by any noticeable amount under his tutelage. In fact most of our attacking players have stagnated from lack of game time or mis-use. He has made nothing better than it was before he came, and in fact the general mood around the club seems to be more divisive, defensive and more than a little confrontational at times than it was previously. In my own honest opinion Allardyce et al should not be in charge here next season, there can be no future in such an appointment
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It's still entirely hypothetical though - all we can do is judge Sam off *his* performances and results. Comparing to them to what we might have got with someone else in charge seems crazy to me, you could make any argument for anyone if that's the case.
Judging Sam on the performances and results achieved with our squad he gets my backing for next season.
Don’t get me wrong, it may not work out. But for me, I think Big Sam staying is the right choice for our club.
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3 improved players this season SJ Bartley and Townsend
Players gone backwards Sawyers / livermore / Diangana / Ajayi / o'shea / robinson / Furlong
then add in Gibbs / Phillips / HRK / Austin / Field / Edwardes ......
Sam has not improved the squad, he has killed it
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3 improved players this season SJ Bartley and Townsend
Players gone backwards Sawyers / livermore / Diangana / Ajayi / o'shea / robinson / Furlong
then add in Gibbs / Phillips / HRK / Austin / Field / Edwardes ......
Sam has not improved the squad, he has killed it
Lets be fair , some of those players listed were finished 2 years ago although Phillips is having his usual flash .
I think with the help of the loan 3 O'Shea , Bartley , Townsend , Johnstone , Pereira and even Furlong have improved this season as tough as it's been .
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My views are much like the above plus I wouldn't trust Dowling one bit .Plenty I don't like about Sam but at the same time it might be better the devil you know .
Yeah, Dowling is the key factor. Would love to know why we didn't pursue Okay in the summer more strongly seeing as he's probably the biggest difference to the way we play than any of the other January signings.
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If sam can clear out the deadwood next summer and do a rebuild so we dont have to rely on Dowling then thats worth keeping him alone. Think based on the squad we had we were always going to go down. Besides periera and of late AMN we are devoid of top level quality.
We didnt lose either of these derbys we are at least in games he deserves a go next year. Address it come christmas. But we cant keep changing managers
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3 improved players this season SJ Bartley and Townsend
Players gone backwards Sawyers / livermore / Diangana / Ajayi / o'shea / robinson / Furlong
then add in Gibbs / Phillips / HRK / Austin / Field / Edwardes ......
Sam has not improved the squad, he has killed it
Those players havent gone backwards they are playing at a much higher level.
Ajayi and OShea are playing against the likes of Kane, Salah Aguero, etc not the likes of (with no disrespect to them), Scott Hogan and Cauley Woodrow.
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I'm just SOOOO fed up of cowardly football, we all know this squad wasn't and isn't good enough BUT why not have a go at winning for gods sake, especially since we have been all but down and needed 3 points every game.
get a manager with some guts in!
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When we are all back at the shrine, this guy will split the support right down the middle, and at the first sign of a downturn in form he will get the same treatment as Keith Downing did.
We don't need it.
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I'm just SOOOO fed up of cowardly football, we all know this squad wasn't and isn't good enough BUT why not have a go at winning for gods sake, especially since we have been all but down and needed 3 points every game.
get a manager with some guts in!
I appreciate the sentiment.
The reality, I’m sure, would have been consistent tonkings (and I mean batterings where we’re on MOTD first for all the wrong reasons). Can’t risk taking that crushed confidence into next season without serious repercussions.
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I appreciate the sentiment. The reality, I’m sure, would have been consistent tonkings (and I mean batterings where we’re on MOTD first for all the wrong reasons). Can’t risk taking that crushed confidence into next season without serious repercussions.
10 minutes to go in a must win matches at 1-1 & 0-0 and you don't bring on Robinson, Grady and leave one up front and introduce HRK isn't avoiding a tonking, it's just bad management. Allardyce has made his share of mistakes, just like the players have.
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I appreciate the sentiment.
The reality, I’m sure, would have been consistent tonkings (and I mean batterings where we’re on MOTD first for all the wrong reasons). Can’t risk taking that crushed confidence into next season with mount serious repercussions.
We had consistent tonkings when we used Sam's approach.
Do you seriously think we have a manager who is too scared to attack because he's worried about crushed confidence next season?
It's simple, today was a must win and we got it wrong - which would be annoying but understandable - if it wasn't something he's done many times this season.
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3 improved players this season SJ Bartley and Townsend
Players gone backwards Sawyers / livermore / Diangana / Ajayi / o'shea / robinson / Furlong
then add in Gibbs / Phillips / HRK / Austin / Field / Edwardes ......
Sam has not improved the squad, he has killed it
I would say that Bartley is the only one that has been improved by Allardyce. SJ and Townsend have been gradually improving all season. All the rest I agree with. And no sign of any of the youngsters being integrated into the squad, let alone given a chance in the team.
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I criticised Allardyce at the start for persisting with Livermore and Sawyers, but he changed it. The only gripe I have is the sidelining of Diangana, which is ridiculous to say he went £18m on him.
Regarding tonight, you have to be mature and credit the Dingles as they were miles better than v Burnley, but yet they still couldn't beat us!
On the whole, the real fault lies with the Owners, we have spent NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH MONEY. Until WBA act like a Premier League we will continue to flounder in this division. 2010 - 2017 was an anomoly, a perfect storm of every signing coming off.
I'm OK with Allardyce, we won't attract better in our current predicament. Now if you were a fan with Scott Parker or Chris Wilder in charge, you'd have something to complain about.
High Time WBA showed some ambition.
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Great post, GREGMT.
Agree with every word.
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Great post, GREGMT.
Agree with every word.
Second that.
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I think he started off far too cautious tonight. He changed it after half an hour (and well done for that), but who knows what would have happened if we'd gone at Wolves from the start. Their defence is not the greatest, but they were only put under sustained pressure for maybe 15 minutes. We've got limited creativity in midfield and rely greatly on Pereira for through passes, but at least when we go at teams we have a better chance. Yes, they might have caught us on the counter, but tonight was the last chance saloon. It was literally all or nothing.
I heard his BBC interview, and whilst I admire his willingness to stay positive, he doesn't half put a gloss on it saying we deserved to win. He always seems to highlight any missed chances we've had, but doesn't mention that Wolves had their chances too.
I think a draw was a fair result, but sadly, probably the final nail in our coffin.
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We had consistent tonkings when we used Sam's approach.
Do you seriously think we have a manager who is too scared to attack because he's worried about crushed confidence next season?
It's simple, today was a must win and we got it wrong - which would be annoying but understandable - if it wasn't something he's done many times this season.
Today was a must not lose for me. We’ve been gone for ages.
We do attack under Big Sam. Weren’t we April’s highest goalscorers?
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Today was a must not lose for me. We’ve been gone for ages.
We do attack under Big Sam. Weren’t we April’s highest goalscorers?
Missed a large number of chances since Febuary too!
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I think he started off far too cautious tonight. He changed it after half an hour (and well done for that), but who knows what would have happened if we'd gone at Wolves from the start. Their defence is not the greatest, but they were only put under sustained pressure for maybe 15 minutes. We've got limited creativity in midfield and rely greatly on Pereira for through passes, but at least when we go at teams we have a better chance. Yes, they might have caught us on the counter, but tonight was the last chance saloon. It was literally all or nothing.
I heard his BBC interview, and whilst I admire his willingness to stay positive, he doesn't half put a gloss on it saying we deserved to win. He always seems to highlight any missed chances we've had, but doesn't mention that Wolves had their chances too.
I think a draw was a fair result, but sadly, probably the final nail in our coffin.
A draw was a fair result.
I do think that torrential rain disrupted the game though. It was horrendous.
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Missed a large number of chances since Febuary too!
The attacking football has been there Dex.
On the whole, I’ve been pleased with our performances post January 2021.
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Still fuming with this bloke and his tactics tonight, hung a young player out to dry with that stupid line up. Hope he apologies to Darra for his mistake, as for his analysis of game players get blame for not converting chances while no mention of his cock up.
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After an abysmal start under Allardyce (which concerned me massively at the time) we have improved slowly.
Under SA we should've beat Newcastle H, Palace A, Burnley A. Draw min Everton H. Throw in the atrocious VAR decisions under Bilic we could've still scraped survival despite the significant underspend from the Board.
But we haven't made it. Tactics & Formations are over rated IMO. Top quality footballers know instinctively what to do on the pitch.
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After an abysmal start under Allardyce (which concerned me massively at the time) we have improved slowly.
Under SA we should've beat Newcastle H, Palace A, Burnley A. Draw min Everton H. Throw in the atrocious VAR decisions under Bilic we could've still scraped survival despite the significant underspend from the Board.
But we haven't made it. Tactics & Formations are over rated IMO. Top quality footballers know instinctively what to do on the pitch.
play seven defensive players on pitch and you will struggle to score goals tactics are an important part of football.
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play seven defensive players on pitch and you will struggle to score goals tactics are an important part of football.
Allardyce himself admitted Wolves were playing one man up front, and there were 3 central defenders marking him. Criminal, at the best of times, but especially in a must win game and against a Wolves defence which itself is suspect.
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Allardyce himself admitted Wolves were playing one man up front, and there were 3 central defenders marking him. Criminal, at the best of times, but especially in a must win game and against a Wolves defence which itself is suspect.
So he took off one of the defenders (who is a pro by the way and will have understood the decision perfectly) before any real damage was done in the 30th minute.
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So he took off one of the defenders (who is a pro by the way and will have understood the decision perfectly) before any real damage was done in the 30th minute.
By that point we'd already allowed a fragile Wolves team to settle into the game and re-build their confidence by allowing them to play however they wanted to. Our best chance of winning was getting at them early, we did the complete opposite.
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Regarding this supposed anti/defensive football he played attacking personnel v Leicester and we got tonked, as per his first half dozen games in charge we’d lost most games after 20 mins.
I see a lot of the time people who don’t rate Sam also say our squad isn’t good enough etc so if that’s the case what do you expect Sam to do? Since he fixed the midfield problem we’d be comfortable mid table first few games really did put a lot of people off which now don’t seem to accept he’s turned us into a PL outfit.
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By that point we'd already allowed a fragile Wolves team to settle into the game and re-build their confidence by allowing them to play however they wanted to. Our best chance of winning was getting at them early, we did the complete opposite.
We won the away game from 2-1 down. Your perception of our best chance and reality appear to be different beasts...
If Gallagher or Townsend score 2nd half we've won the game.
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We won the away game from 2-1 down. Your perception of our best chance and reality appear to be different beasts...
If Gallagher or Townsend score 2nd half we've won the game.
How do you come to that conclusion? What's the reality? They've just been hammered 4-0 by Burnley, get at them, let them know they're in a game from the first minute. Not surrender all control of the game.
If Wolves had scored any of their chances we'd have lost...
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How do you come to that conclusion? What's the reality? They've just been hammered 4-0 by Burnley, get at them, let them know they're in a game from the first minute. Not surrender all control of the game.
If Wolves had scored any of their chances we'd have lost...
Goal attempts first half were 9-3 to wolves. Second half we came into it more. Draw fair result IMV. Townsend effort was decent, good chance not clear one. Gallagher chance was a sitter but as others have said wolves also had their moments.
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We won the away game from 2-1 down. Your perception of our best chance and reality appear to be different beasts...
If Gallagher or Townsend score 2nd half we've won the game.
if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle, if Dingles took their chances they would have won.
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if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle, if Dingles took their chances they would have won.
As I said in the Johnstone thread they didn't miss any clear cut chances, nothing he saved was of a difficulty we wouldn't have been extremely disappointed in him had he conceded, and their goal was a fluke. The Townsend chance was better than any of their chances and the Gallagher chance was an absolute sitter.
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Regarding this supposed anti/defensive football he played attacking personnel v Leicester and we got tonked, as per his first half dozen games in charge we’d lost most games after 20 mins.
I see a lot of the time people who don’t rate Sam also say our squad isn’t good enough etc so if that’s the case what do you expect Sam to do? Since he fixed the midfield problem we’d be comfortable mid table first few games really did put a lot of people off which now don’t seem to accept he’s turned us into a PL outfit.
We went for it against Chelsea and won. We went for it against Southampton and won. We even went more at it against Villa and should have won. We lost to Leicester when the team looked way off the pace all round.
No idea why people think that Wolves are as good as Leicester. One thing we knew before we kicked off was that Wolves are on shakey form, they struggle to get into games and score early, and that we needed to score at least 1 as we needed 3pts. What did we do? Reverted back to type and stuck 9, if not 10 men behind the ball.
We acknowledge the squad isn't amazing but you play to the squad's strengths, not its weaknesses. Would you rather SJ had to deal with 5 crosses a game or 10? Would you rather Ajayi and Bartley have to clear the lines 10 times a match or 30?
Diagne, Pierera, Robinson and Phillips have caused sides problems and we needed 3 points. So he drops two of them to accommodate 5 at the back.
Maybe I just have more faith in the Albion in that I believe this squad is good enough to give Wolves a game and get 3 points, rather than thinking they're like Leicester and we need to set up to nick a set piece goal.
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As I said in the Johnstone thread they didn't miss any clear cut chances, nothing he saved was of a difficulty we wouldn't have been extremely disappointed in him had he conceded, and their goal was a fluke. The Townsend chance was better than any of their chances and the Gallagher chance was an absolute sitter.
The one where Ajayi dawdled on the ball and gifted them was a sitter, as good as Gallagher's, thankfully it was a poor effort. They also had quite a few decent efforts where a foot further away from Sam and it was a goal.
How many times did they work our keeper compared to us working theirs?
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As has already been mentioned we were the leading scorers in the Prem in April with 10 goals ! How did that happen if we are ultra defensive ? Given the real lack of options on the bench , I was not at all surprised that we only made the 2 subs . Just out of interest how many league goals have Grant , HRK and Grady got between them this season ? I make it 2 .
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It's difficult to score if you're not on the pitch. That game summed up why I pray that he will be gone at the end of the season. Negative selection, negative tactics until we were behind (and reverted to negative tactics once we were level). This was yet another must win game when we never looked like winning, or even trying to win it.
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From playing and watching a lot of football it is obvious that most goals are scored by strikers so why don't we use those available when we need to score or win?
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Three defeats in the last 11 games is pretty impressive form given the resources we have relative to others. Even the Everton and Palace losses were very marginal on the balance of play.
We are undoubtedly creating more chances than under Slav who most people feel is a more enterprising and attacking manager.
So it can only by reputation that fans are agin BS. I struggle to imagine who could do better in the circumstances.
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I fully concur with your last sentence.
Hope BS gets the gig for next season.
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Most goals scored in April and we are apparently negative under Big Sam... :-\
Sadly peoples agendas against the man seem to be clouding their judgement. We would be mid table based on our current form under him; how people cannot see the improvement we have made since he was able to bring a few of his own players in and work on our fitness levels which were previously awful is beyond me.
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We will be looking for players who see themselves as good enough for the Prem, his name at the top will be a good recruiting factor
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Not a great fan before he came here and was against his appointment.
He knows what's need as is shown by the loan players he has bought in.
I would imagine that BS will have a conversation with the board and outline what he wants on the playing side, the ball will then be in the boards court
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Three defeats in the last 11 games is pretty impressive form given the resources we have relative to others. Even the Everton and Palace losses were very marginal on the balance of play.
We are undoubtedly creating more chances than under Slav who most people feel is a more enterprising and attacking manager.
So it can only by reputation that fans are agin BS. I struggle to imagine who could do better in the circumstances.
Sam could do better in the same circumstances if he played to the team's strengths.
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As has already been mentioned we were the leading scorers in the Prem in April with 10 goals ! How did that happen if we are ultra defensive ? Given the real lack of options on the bench , I was not at all surprised that we only made the 2 subs . Just out of interest how many league goals have Grant , HRK and Grady got between them this season ? I make it 2 .
Because we weren't ultra-defensive in April. We were before, and we were last night. And the reason that changed wasn't a tactical masterclass, it was because we were 1-0 down against 10 men and we'd lost two CH's through injury and had to go for it. Are you telling me we approached the games in April the same way we did Feb to March?
That's why it makes the approach against Wolves more annoying. You can see the difference in approach during single games even - when we press and go at teams we cause them problems, when we try and defend out penalty box and hold out we are poor. Your point just highlights how silly it was to change our approach.
Did the team he used in April start the game last night? With the same approach?
Not sure of your last point - we needed a goal and instead of trying everything we could Sam once again took the cautious approach. Grady isn't going to score if he doesn't get on the pitch and he'd have offered a more attacking threat than Townsend.
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The average (mean) for staying up since 2015 is 37.333pts, so 38 to be safe.
If Sam gets us to that, so he can point at being unlucky because other teams have excelled, then fair enough.
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Big Sam in charge for me next season 100%
Huge improvement in us and we will need that momentum going into next season
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The average (mean) for staying up since 2015 is 37.333pts, so 38 to be safe.
If Sam gets us to that, so he can point at being unlucky because other teams have excelled, then fair enough.
So we've 'only' got to beat Arsenal, Liverpool, West Ham and Leeds on the trot? Sounds reasonable........ unlikely I know but can we have a picture of the look on your face posted to the site if we do it please ;D ?
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It's obvious to anyone without an anti Allardyce agenda that we have improved under him.
He knows the game. Last night his early change probably saved us from defeat. His initial selection was based on incorrect assumptions about how the dings would set up - which could be seen as an error, but at least he acted quickly ; a lesser manager may not have.
It took too long to improve things this season but at least we look like we have a chance in games now; the improvements indicate he knows what he's doing, he spots problems and knows how to fix them; that's not as easy as it sounds.
I'd be happy if he stays next season; I can't think of a better realistic option.
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It's obvious to anyone without an anti Allardyce agenda that we have improved under him.
Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.
Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.
I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.
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Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.
Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.
I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.
Such a disrespectful post. People who don’t agree with you are small minded?
There are fair arguments on both sides of the debate, many of them made well on here. I think it is you who might need to be more open minded to views you disagree with.
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Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.
Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.
I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.
That happens just as much and probably more with certain players on our books. It's perfectly valid for people not to want Allardyce due to the switch in styles and approaches but it is obvious we are a better team now due to the January arrivals particularly in midfield.
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Such a disrespectful post. People who don’t agree with you are small minded?
There are fair arguments on both sides of the debate, many of them made well on here. I think it is you who might need to be more open minded to views you disagree with.
You don't like it because you know it hits a nerve.
As I've already said if there is logic to a debate then great I welcome opposite views but let's be big enough to be honest shall we?
The style of play debate, I can handle.
The fact that people are debating that we are a better team now than we were before Allardyce got his men in at the end of January I'm simply not having, it is clear and obvious.
People can label me what they like I have a skin thicker than six foot of concrete.
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I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer
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Three defeats in the last 11 games is pretty impressive form given the resources we have relative to others. Even the Everton and Palace losses were very marginal on the balance of play.
We are undoubtedly creating more chances than under Slav who most people feel is a more enterprising and attacking manager.
So it can only by reputation that fans are agin BS. I struggle to imagine who could do better in the circumstances.
I’m not anti Sam, he’s a good manager but I actually feel pretty ambivalent about him staying. We look more solid and competitive than before but If you play devils advocate he has won 4 in 22 since he’s been here. We should have lost to Brighton and Fulham in that run. We couldn’t beat a Newcastle and Wolves team who’s form and confidence was at its lowest ebb when they showed up at the Hawthorns. In games against teams we needed to beat (in the lower half of the table) in the run in we couldn’t beat Burnley, Sheff Utd, Fulham, Newcastle, Palace, or Wolves.
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I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer
He expected, as we all wouldve, Wolves to line up with three at the back. They changed it and went with a four. That explains the team selection.
I really dont get the Diangana love in. Its only a personal opinion, I accept, but he's not my type of wide man and I really dont think he's half as good as some of our fans think he is.
I saw an online poll last season when our fans voted him better than Harvey Barnes!!!
Anyone know where I can get hold of those funny fags?
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I've not got anti Allardyce biase but i don't want him here next season, improvements occurred with the arrival of new players particularly Okay. Before thery came in Sam and Bilic didn't improve our defence but kept picking core players usually senior pros. Southampton game in particular showed what sort of performance this team could achieve but he couldn't change it quick enough, last night was final straw for me must win game and he sets up not to lose.
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You don't like it because you know it hits a nerve.
As I've already said if there is logic to a debate then great I welcome opposite views but let's be big enough to be honest shall we?
The style of play debate, I can handle.
The fact that people are debating that we are a better team now than we were before Allardyce got his men in at the end of January I'm simply not having, it is clear and obvious.
People can label me what they like I have a skin thicker than six foot of concrete.
I don’t like it because it dismisses people who don’t see the world the way you want them to see it.
There are some good arguments made by those who want to keep him. The fact he goes some way to mitigate Luke Dowling’s glaring weaknesses, the fact he did identify some of our most obvious weaknesses in January, a lack of confidence in the club to get the right man next time and if this was a pre CoVID world, his record for top 6 finishes.
I’m happy to say these despite my own view that I’d like us to be daring and try a more imaginative choice.
It doesn’t make my own views or those who disagree any less valid, coming from a position of close mindedness or needing to “improve ourselvesâ€.
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He knows the game. Last night his early change probably saved us from defeat. His initial selection was based on incorrect assumptions about how the dings would set up - which could be seen as an error, but at least he acted quickly ; a lesser manager may not have.
This is where opinions come into any debate. You are praising him for acting as he did during the game, a view you are perfectly entitled to. I, on the other hand, am still annoyed at how we started, something that may well have cost us the victory we so desperately needed.
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For me, he's done ok and has improved us on Bilic which was the main thing.
Having said that, he hasn't been perfect. Sometimes I think fans look at what managers can't do instead of what they can. My point is, when we get relegated, can we improve upon him? I don't think it's very likely to be honest.
For everyone who says "But look at the Barnsley manager!", what about Cocu at Derby? It's very easy to look at successful, unknown managers in hindsight but the reality of getting a gem is very different.
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I don’t like it because it dismisses people who don’t see the world the way you want them to see it.
No it doesn't. It doesnt dismiss logic and reason. It just dismisses opinion of those that dont offer a realistic view.
I'm 47 years old, I've lived many years listening to complete and utter rubbish based on no foundation. At my time of life I don't tolerate it any more.
Any reasoned debate I am happy to engage in but people with childish attitudes that didnt want Allardyce because he was a Dingle and then look for any tiny reason to try and back up their sad prejudices, however disguised (and they dont get past me), I ain't having.
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I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer
Can only assume you mean automatic promotion as he has been directly promoted out of the Championship twice in his only 2 full seasons in it.
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I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer
but he has won promotion twice from the championship and then kept those teams in the Pl, surely that's more important than getting automatic promotion?
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Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.
Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.
I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.
Good Troll :)
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So we've 'only' got to beat Arsenal, Liverpool, West Ham and Leeds on the trot? Sounds reasonable........ unlikely I know but can we have a picture of the look on your face posted to the site if we do it please ;D ?
I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.
My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.
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I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.
My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.
You appear to be under the impression that 31 points from 25 games is merely doing what was expected.
Christ...
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I’m not anti Sam, he’s a good manager but I actually feel pretty ambivalent about him staying. We look more solid and competitive than before but If you play devils advocate he has won 4 in 22 since he’s been here. We should have lost to Brighton and Fulham in that run. We couldn’t beat a Newcastle and Wolves team who’s form and confidence was at its lowest ebb when they showed up at the Hawthorns. In games against teams we needed to beat (in the lower half of the table) in the run in we couldn’t beat Burnley, Sheff Utd, Fulham, Newcastle, Palace, or Wolves.
Exactly, when you read it like that - would you expect other clubs knocking on the door for our manager? No.
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I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.
My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.
By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.
It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.
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You appear to be under the impression that 31 points from 25 games is merely doing what was expected.
Christ...
He was hired to keep us up, he was offered a 7 figure sum if he did - that's how serious we were. We have a break in the contract at the end of the season - not usual at all when hiring a long term manager. Pretty clear what was expected.
I'd say reaching 38 pts is a reasonable target to aim for if your aim is to stay in the league. Seeing as you think the other clubs above us have done really well this season - then reaching 38pts, even if it meant relegation, could at least mean we felt hard done by. If we don't get close to that then no way were we staying up. So we're further away from safety, with a much worse goal difference, and a manager who thinks playing 5 defenders against Wolves would get us a win, and he's failed in his primary aim for the season. At best it looks like Sam could move us up 1 place in the league.
Sorry, but I think West Bromwich Albion can do better. Maybe I'm just more optimistic about the club eh?
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By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.
It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.
We'll never know. All we do know is that we brought Sam in to do that very job and *he* didn't keep us up.
And also, just to add, it's not a case of "if we go down we shouldn't keep him" - it's the manner of the relegation, setting us up to play to our weaknesses, refusing to use Diangana, playing Kanu, defending on the edge of our own box, not attacking teams, all this throughout his reign, not just looking at the past handful of games.
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The automatic promotion point is relevant in as much as the play offs are akin to a cup competition sudden death knockout and if you fail to make the top 2 you are statistically more likely to fail than succeed in the playoffs. It’s why I think our aim next season, with our huge financial advantage, is to replicate Norwich and Watford. Finishing top 6 should be a given next season just like it was this season due to the Championship clubs being effectively broke. Can Allardyce with his style of football achieve top 2? He hasn’t managed it so far, despite managing the favourites West Ham the last time out.
As for the analysis of Allardyce’s time here so far, while I agree the squad he inherited was hugely flawed, he was unable to get anything out of the squad for quite a while and even after he made the necessary purchases, his safety first tendencies can be looked at as one of the reasons we only picked up 1 win and 1 goal in the 5 game run that ultimately relegated us. He would need to be less cautious for us to get to the automatics next season, I’m not sure he can going on his career to date.
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He was hired to keep us up, he was offered a 7 figure sum if he did - that's how serious we were. We have a break in the contract at the end of the season - not usual at all when hiring a long term manager. Pretty clear what was expected.
I'd say reaching 38 pts is a reasonable target to aim for if your aim is to stay in the league. Seeing as you think the other clubs above us have done really well this season - then reaching 38pts, even if it meant relegation, could at least mean we felt hard done by. If we don't get close to that then no way were we staying up. So we're further away from safety, with a much worse goal difference, and a manager who thinks playing 5 defenders against Wolves would get us a win, and he's failed in his primary aim for the season. At best it looks like Sam could move us up 1 place in the league.
Sorry, but I think West Bromwich Albion can do better. Maybe I'm just more optimistic about the club eh?
Optimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. I'm a glass half full fan, always have been, what you appear to need is a dose of realism...
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By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.
It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.
As one of the "small minded people", you'll have to explain that one to me.
I'm pretty sure the reason Allardyce was appointed was to keep us up, seem to recall the "never been relegated" tag was bounded around quite a bit.
So from that brief, he's failed.
Turning now to what happens next.......
It really depends on the owner, ideally he should opt for a re-construct, similar to the one outlined by Standaman recently. Allegedly, he's under great pressure from the Chinese Government to get rid, so I suspect we'll go for a sticking plaster job, to get us promoted one way or another, at minimum cost.
Would I appoint SA for a re-construct? Absolutely not, but as a short term sticking plaster job, probably couldn't think of anyone better.
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Optimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. I'm a glass half full fan, always have been, what you appear to need is a dose of realism...
What part of "he was hired to keep us up" and "needing 38 pts is a good target" aren't realistic?
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What part of "he was hired to keep us up" and "needing 38 pts is a good target" aren't realistic?
The 31 points from 25 games part.
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Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.
Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.
I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.
Sorry if it offends but definitely pot kettle black. Might I suggest that opening your own mind to your own prejudices and to the fact that you and those that follow the same subjective views, might not have the sole rights to what is best for WBA. Most of what you and others deem to be 'anti Allardyce' is often well thought out reasoned argument, usually backed up with some factual evidence. Just because the 'pro Allardyce' faction seem to have trouble with reasoned argument does not make that reasoned argument less valid than your own subjective opinions.
I completely absolve myself from any of the above debate due to the fact that I was, and am still decidedly, irrationally and vehemently anti Allardyce and I freely admit to my own prejudices. However my mind is far from closed, I do think he has great experience, I believe that he understands the game, even the more modern variants of it, and that he should know how to build and manage a PL team. But I believe he has not used these abilities to the benefit of WBA
At the time of his appointment, I did not think that he would be any good for WBA, and anything he has done whilst in the job has not altered my thinking. Although the accidental and enforced team selections and tactics against Chelsea and Southampton did raise my hopes that I might be wrong. For me he is Sam Allardyce first, regardless of the needs of the club the team or the players. He has made poor decisions regarding personnel and tactics and defends those poor decisions by placing blame elsewhere. He takes the utmost credit he can for what little success we have had, regardless of the actual, sometimes accidental, circumstances or others efforts behind it. He is for me a far better BS merchant than he is a manager/head coach of WBA. Unfortunately I see too many otherwise intelligent people falling for his BS
I will add one proviso in that I do not see any much better alternatives for next season but sincerely hope there will be one.
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Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.
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Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.
I agree on both of those points. It was a defective squad with the lack of a good striker and a defensive midfielder but I did sort of expect Allardyce to make us look more organised than he did in those first 10 games. I also agree that I have found the praise to be a bit much considering the fact we are likely going to finish in 19th place and that he has 4 wins from 22 games.
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The 31 points from 25 games part.
You think 31 points from 25 games is unrealistic if you want to stay in the league? That's why he was hired - or are you saying the club didn't hire him to keep us in the league?
Like I said, he was hired to keep us in the league, and if we fall far short of 38pts, then he hasn't achieved that and using other team's form as an excuse doesn't hide that either. You think that's "unrealistic", my glass is definitely half full because I would say that is a realistic target. Look at the points we've thrown away against relegation rivals - a couple of wins out of those, a VAR decision here or there, and we'd be right in amongst them now.
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I agree on both of those points. It was a defective squad with the lack of a good striker and a defensive midfielder but I did sort of expect Allardyce to make us look more organised than he did in those first 10 games. I also agree that I have found the praise to be a bit much considering the fact we are likely going to finish in 19th place and that he has 4 wins from 22 games.
Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.
You think 31 points from 25 games is unrealistic if you want to stay in the league?
I've struck through the irrelevant part.
Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.
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Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.
But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.
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After 30 years of organising teams, I'd lean towards it being player quality rather than Allardyce as the cause of our defensive weakness. SJ has been up and down, but none of the others are worthy of Prem league football. The decision to waste wages on Ivanovic and not upgrade the defense properly in the summer was clearly a massive mistake.
We are in a very vulnerable situation now and will need an incredible transfer window (not the normal 50/50 hit and miss that most clubs achieve). Therefore, assuming Allardyce had some input in the selection in January, we need the same success rate again. So for me he has to stay and with a promotion bonus we can afford to keep him happy.
Over to you Luke.
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Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.
I've struck through the irrelevant part.
Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.
Pretty pointless appointing him then, as that is exactly the expectation of the Board (and a fair few fans) when we appointed him. No getting away from it, he was given a remit and he has failed to deliver.
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Such a pity the A-Team failed as well, we all love it when plans come together....... but sometimes they don't.
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Pretty pointless appointing him then, as that is exactly the expectation of the Board (and a fair few fans) when we appointed him. No getting away from it, he was given a remit and he has failed to deliver.
I think the other thing is that the teams that were only a couple of points away from us *have* gone on to do that too. It's not like we were miles behind and we've finished miles behind. We were closer and our form, under Sam, has been worse than the teams above - hence them pulling away from us.
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But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.
We needed it to be a similar season to the last 4 years where 35 or 36 points keeps you up. Even then it was a very big ask, hence the very big bonus. Allardyce would still have needed to hit the same numbers as a 43 point full season. That's 14th, 15th, 13th and 14th in the last four seasons. What your asking translates to a 47 point season. Something only ever bettered once by Albion in the PL.
It hasn't panned out mainly due to Sheffield United and Liverpool being so far underpar that the middle of the league has contracted and at least 16 teams look likely to get to 40 points.
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By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.
It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.
Spot on Atomic, our fate was sealed way before Sam came on board.
Had we have appointed someone else and witnessed their 'crash and burn' we would be saying 'at least Sam would have kept us up'which tells you how bad we were, and if he could not do it with the resources available I am happy that it was a virtually impossible task.
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But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.
That was the hope. I’m far from sure it was the expectation. We were already drowning and desperately looking for a lifeboat.
The facts are we have an inadequate unbalanced squad that’s struggled for results for well over a year, in both the EPL and the Championship. Under two coaches.
I’m 100% convinced relegation is almost totally about the inadequacy of the players we’ve had; it’s much less about tactics or individual selections, which have perhaps made things a bit better or perhaps a bit worse. But the overall picture wouldn’t have changed, whatever tactics were employed. This is a poor team with five wins all season.
The question now is whether there’s a better option than Allardyce that could be attracted to a club like ours. Owners who want out, frugal spending, and a poor inventory on the pitch.
Personally I very much doubt we’ll do better than BS - there’s a big job ahead, because I fear this is the weakest team we’ve been relegated with since Megson’s side. It’s not one for a novice or a cavalier appointment that could go badly wrong, and leave us marooned a very long way from a return to the top table.
Every appointment is a gamble. Keeping BS is a gamble too. But it looks less of a wild punt than almost every other likely option.
Assuming of course we can persuade him to stay in the first place.
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Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.
A few weeks ago I thought we were on course to over take Fulham, but with 4 games left their fixtures are a lot kinder than ours. I think we probably get a surprise win against either Leeds or West Ham but I'd be surprised if we finish on more than 30 points now. Fulham should get 4 points from their last 4 games - 3 vs bottom six sides.
[Edit] - sorry, pressed send too soon. I do agree the required points total has made it very difficult, although I should add when Bilic was sacked we were 3 points off Burnley and 4 off Brighton, yet both of those sides seem to have been able to achieve seemingly unrealistic points per game improvement required.
In any case, had Allardyce got close to them and fell at the last hurdle I would understand the view point that he has done a good job while here. In reality, we have never really been in contention and so if we are being kind you can only really stretch to say he has done a so so job.
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Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.
Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.
Playing devils advocate, what do we think we would be doing had we survived in this god forsaken league on goal difference? Another year looking for bargain basement players? Another year of looking forward to the one spectacular result [Chelsea] and wondering where our other four wins will be coming from?, another year of zero investment and no interest from our owner?
I seriously worry about where we are going at the moment. I hope there is a plan.
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Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.
I agree. A “cop out†is avoiding or failing to do something you SHOULD do.
There’s no way anyone SHOULD have kept this ramshackle squad in the EPL. It was holed below the waterline before it even set sail.
The facts are - the players are not good enough. Nowhere near good enough.
The evidence is there, plain as day, with well over a year of results and performances under two different coaches in two different divisions. What more exactly do we need to see to prove it?
We can spend hours talking about tactics, selections and the rest - but no amount of re-steering this ship would ever have stopped it from sinking.
Not. Good. Enough.
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A few weeks ago I thought we were on course to over take Fulham, but with 4 games left their fixtures are a lot kinder than ours. I think we probably get a surprise win against either Leeds or West Ham but I'd be surprised if we finish on more than 30 points now. Fulham should get 4 points from their last 4 games - 3 vs bottom six sides.
[Edit] - sorry, pressed send too soon. I do agree the required points total has made it very difficult, although I should add when Bilic was sacked we were 3 points off Burnley and 4 off Brighton, yet both of those sides seem to have been able to achieve seemingly unrealistic points per game improvement required.
In any case, had Allardyce got close to them and fell at the last hurdle I would understand the view point that he has done a good job while here. In reality, we have never really been in contention and so if we are being kind you can only really stretch to say he has done a so so job.
Brighton and Burnley are established PL sides, much like us under Hodgson and latterly Pulis. Their improvement wasn't unrealistic.
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We needed it to be a similar season to the last 4 years where 35 or 36 points keeps you up. Even then it was a very big ask, hence the very big bonus. Allardyce would still have needed to hit the same numbers as a 43 point full season. That's 14th, 15th, 13th and 14th in the last four seasons. What your asking translates to a 47 point season. Something only ever bettered once by Albion in the PL.
It hasn't panned out mainly due to Sheffield United and Liverpool being so far underpar that the middle of the league has contracted and at least 16 teams look likely to get to 40 points.
35 points would have been enough to keep a team up for each of the last 4 seasons. Let's assume that was the yardstick when Allardyce was appointed. In which case, we would have needed to get 28 points from 25 games, which is hardly a "very big ask", barely more than a point a game. If Allardyce had achieved the 35 point target and we had still been relegated, you would have an argument that he had been unlucky, but he won't achieve that. He took the job on the basis that it was perfectly realistic for him to keep us up (we were only 3 points off 17th at the time). You can spin it whichever way you want, but he has failed and needs to be replaced.
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35 points would have been enough to keep a team up for each of the last 4 seasons. Let's assume that was the yardstick when Allardyce was appointed. In which case, we would have needed to get 28 points from 25 games, which is hardly a "very big ask", barely more than a point a game. If Allardyce had achieved the 35 point target and we had still been relegated, you would have an argument that he had been unlucky, but he won't achieve that. He took the job on the basis that it was perfectly realistic for him to keep us up (we were only 3 points off 17th at the time). You can spin it whichever way you want, but he has failed and needs to be replaced.
Look deeper into the numbers it really isn't difficult maths. You think taking a team that was getting 0.54 ppg over a 3 month period (projected final points total 20, the 6th worst in Premier League history) to a level that would have seen them finish comfortably midtable EVERY season ie on 43 points was hardly a very big ask? Your expectations of the new manager and indeed the unbalanced squad he inherited are borderline ridiculous.
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Brighton and Burnley are established PL sides, much like us under Hodgson and latterly Pulis. Their improvement wasn't unrealistic.
Maybe, it's a fair point.
It does circle me back to those first 10 games with Allardyce though, the 5 points achieved over 10 games where many say the personnel were just not good enough and Allardyce had absolutely no chance. While there is merit in that, you only have to look at what another organiser in Dyche has done at Burnley. His first 11 are full of misfits and rejects, players written off as not good enough before. Lowton and Westwood who were written off by Villa fans (and in fairness looked awful in that relegation season), Matej Vydra who has never been able to to crack the premier league, Jay Rodriguez who was relegated with us and who had question marks over him after that relegation and a ton of other players signed from championship sides or relegated prem sides.
It's why I was surprised by just how little he got from the players who were here.
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The owner sought the services of Allardyce with believe that he could keep us up, he's failed in that respect so why reward him with what will probably be the highest salary in Championship?
This club has tried the never been relegated coaches all of whom have failed with their remit. Has there no one at the Albion the cahooners to look out side this box?
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Look deeper into the numbers it really isn't difficult maths. You think taking a team that was getting 0.54 ppg over a 3 month period (projected final points total 20, the 6th worst in Premier League history) to a level that would have seen them finish comfortably midtable EVERY season ie on 43 points was hardly a very big ask? Your expectations of the new manager and indeed the unbalanced squad he inherited are borderline ridiculous.
Do you think that the expectations of the Board, and indeed Allardyce himself, at the time of his appointment were "borderline ridiculous" as well then?
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Maybe, it's a fair point.
It does circle me back to those first 10 games with Allardyce though, the 5 points achieved over 10 games where many say the personnel were just not good enough and Allardyce had absolutely no chance. While there is merit in that, you only have to look at what another organiser in Dyche has done at Burnley. His first 11 are full of misfits and rejects, players written off as not good enough before. Lowton and Westwood who were written off by Villa fans (and in fairness looked awful in that relegation season), Matej Vydra who has never been able to to crack the premier league, Jay Rodriguez who was relegated with us and who had question marks over him after that relegation and a ton of other players signed from championship sides or relegated prem sides.
It's why I was surprised by just how little he got from the players who were here.
He's been working with them for 5 years, not the 5 weeks Allardyce had with small group training in bubbles and a match every 4 days. You aren't judging comparable scenarios imo.
Do you think that the expectations of the Board, and indeed Allardyce himself, at the time of his appointment were "borderline ridiculous" then?
It was a roll of the dice, the previous manager had lost the plot and this appointment was our very best chance.of survival. But it was never a good chance purely on the numbers required. Without a 3rd team in and around us and Fulham points wise it became an impossible chance.
If we are ultimately relegated, Allardyce both gives us the very best chance of an immediate return while it's also a pretty easy ask based on budget and the general financial and squad states of the rest of the division. Then comes the real benefit. He keeps teams up after he gets them up. Something no Albion manager has ever done in the PL era.
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I agree. A “cop out†is avoiding or failing to do something you SHOULD do.
There’s no way anyone SHOULD have kept this ramshackle squad in the EPL. It was holed below the waterline before it even set sail.
The facts are - the players are not good enough. Nowhere near good enough.
The evidence is there, plain as day, with well over a year of results and performances under two different coaches in two different divisions. What more exactly do we need to see to prove it?
We can spend hours talking about tactics, selections and the rest - but no amount of re-steering this ship would ever have stopped it from sinking.
Not. Good. Enough.
Nobody has said he *should* have kept us up - just that was what he was hired to do and he's failed. When Sam took the job at no point did he said there was no chance of keeping us in the Prem, it was all about how we had a good quality in the squad to give us a chance. All this "nobody would have kept us up" is just revisionsim - when he took the job the aim was very clearly to keep us up. If he thought 1.24 points per game was impossible with this squad then maybe he should have given the job to somebody who thought it was possible. So either he thought we could do it, and he's failed, or he knew we couldn't and took the job anyway because he wanted to get paid.
Anyway, it's not so much the results, it's the performances and the mindset. It's setting out to get draws against relegation rivals, it's sitting on the edge of your own 18 yard box for most of the match, it's averaging around 30% possession game after game, it's conceding 3+ goals in several games running, it's picking Kanu, it's getting a poor defence to spend 70% of the game defending, it's moaning about the fixture list but not using all your subs, it's watching your goal difference get hammered, it's refusing to play Diangana, it's having a must win game against your rivals and starting with 5 defenders on the pitch and dropping the player who was the catalyst for the few good results.
These aren't unlucky things, or factors of a poor squad, it's the mindset of a manager who still thinks you can defend the edge of your box for 80 mins and nick a goal. A few good results and performances and suddenly it's like the rest of his tenure didn't happen. Let's face it, he was forced into the change against Chelsea and we lucked out, we followed that up against Southampton, and then he's very quickly reverted back to "must. defend. goal." even in games where we HAVE to win.
In a must win match, against our local rivals, he starts with 5 defenders on the pitch, and 3 midfielders who are all known to be better defensively. The only attacking intent on the pitch was Pierera and Diagne. In a must win match. I genuinely wouldn't have criticised him if he'd have gone for it and we lost - because we have to go for it. Likewise I didn't blame him for the team he picked against Leicester.
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Tell you something, Sam really lucked out getting a job with us - he literally couldn't fail in this appointment.
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Tell you something, Sam really lucked out getting a job with us - he literally couldn't fail in this appointment.
Apart from the fact that he has. But I take your point. As far as some people are concerned, even failure shouldn't be seen as failure. Failure is apparently success. Relegation is apparently success. Allardyce has apparently been successful. Let's keep him. This will apparently ensure promotion next season. All is rosy in the garden it seems.
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I’m 100% convinced relegation is almost totally about the inadequacy of the players we’ve had; it’s much less about tactics or individual selections, which have perhaps made things a bit better or perhaps a bit worse. But the overall picture wouldn’t have changed, whatever tactics were employed. This is a poor team with five wins all season.
I made that point when I opposed sacking our manager mid-season but few on here seemed to agree then. Now we have actually got relegated everyone seems to come around to my way of thinking. Goalposts of many have been shifting all over the place (no you ttree30 I should add).
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Just read Madeleys latest piece in the Athletic , Albion would like Allardyce to stay in the right circumstances .
I still don't think he'll stay but that seems a tiny step nearer .
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Just read Madeleys latest piece in the Athletic , Albion would like Allardyce to stay in the right circumstances .
I still don't think he'll stay but that seems a tiny step nearer .
I hope he stays, I don't see anyone like Chris Wilder or Alex Neil doing a better job and I'm sick of the instability of constantly changing managers and coaching staff.
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The 31 points from 25 games part.
That was why he was bought in .He would have known that was close to being the target so I don't see it as being unreasonable
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He's been working with them for 5 years, not the 5 weeks Allardyce had with small group training in bubbles and a match every 4 days. You aren't judging comparable scenarios imo.
It was a roll of the dice, the previous manager had lost the plot and this appointment was our very best chance.of survival. But it was never a good chance purely on the numbers required. Without a 3rd team in and around us and Fulham points wise it became an impossible chance.
If we are ultimately relegated, Allardyce both gives us the very best chance of an immediate return while it's also a pretty easy ask based on budget and the general financial and squad states of the rest of the division. Then comes the real benefit. He keeps teams up after he gets them up. Something no Albion manager has ever done in the PL era.
Why does Allardyce give us the very best chance of an immediate return?
We can't discuss future .managers until there's a vacancy so we don't know who is available, so it's just guesswork to suggest Allardyce offers more than anyone else.
He failed to do what he was appointed to do by a long way it's also guesswork to suggest IF he gets us back up he'll keep us up.
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Apart from the fact that he has. But I take your point. As far as some people are concerned, even failure shouldn't be seen as failure. Failure is apparently success. Relegation is apparently success. Allardyce has apparently been successful. Let's keep him. This will apparently ensure promotion next season. All is rosy in the garden it seems.
He undoubtedly will want to bring in experienced players (similar to Robert Snodgrass). The transfer fees will probably not be great, but the wages will.
It might be possible to offset some of the cost by offloading some of our more expensive players, but that means there won't be any savings as such. (Replacing one £30,000 a week player with another won't save anything).
He's currently not playing Diangana or Grant, who together are on our books at around £33 million, but relatively low wages. Difficult to see how he's going to motivate either to play well next year.
Next season, under SA, could be quite expensive. Great, if he gets us promoted, risky if he doesn't.
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Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.
Playing devils advocate, what do we think we would be doing had we survived in this god forsaken league on goal difference? Another year looking for bargain basement players? Another year of looking forward to the one spectacular result [Chelsea] and wondering where our other four wins will be coming from?, another year of zero investment and no interest from our owner?
I seriously worry about where we are going at the moment. I hope there is a plan.
It is a cop out. The players may not be up to it, but we had the lowest budget in the division. We hired Allardyce as he was seen as a safe pair of hands, to hopefully make us more solid and get more from the players that Bilic couldn't. There was logic in the appointment but he failed on both counts up until the point where it was too late. Why are people so defensive over him? He's done some good things and made plenty of mistakes also. We could do worse than Allardyce but why can't we strive to do better? I don't buy that nobody could have possibly done a better job than him. He set us up to not lose in must win games, he broke the PL record for goals conceded in the first 10 games for a new manager. He lucked out in the Chelsea game and was practically forced to bring Robinson on, I doubt we'd have seen him otherwise. He's ignored players we will be relying on next season. For some reason he's getting all of the credit for our January signings despite them apparently being on a list of targets in the summer. 4 wins in 22 yet he's apparently our only hope.
He's not totally to blame but that doesn't make him blameless either. I don't have a personal agenda against Allardyce, just judging him on what he's achieved, which IMO is not a lot really.
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It is a cop out. The players may not be up to it, but we had the lowest budget in the division. We hired Allardyce as he was seen as a safe pair of hands, to hopefully make us more solid and get more from the players that Bilic couldn't. There was logic in the appointment but he failed on both counts up until the point where it was too late. Why are people so defensive over him? He's done some good things and made plenty of mistakes also. We could do worse than Allardyce but why can't we strive to do better? I don't buy that nobody could have possibly done a better job than him. He set us up to not lose in must win games, he broke the PL record for goals conceded in the first 10 games for a new manager. He lucked out in the Chelsea game and was practically forced to bring Robinson on, I doubt we'd have seen him otherwise. He's ignored players we will be relying on next season. For some reason he's getting all of the credit for our January signings despite them apparently being on a list of targets in the summer. 4 wins in 22 yet he's apparently our only hope.
He's not totally to blame but that doesn't make him blameless either. I don't have a personal agenda against Allardyce, just judging him on what he's achieved, which IMO is not a lot really.
The definition of 'cop out' is avoid doing something that one ought to do
Sam certainly did not cop out. He tried and failed. Is it his fault?, well yes partly, he set the team up and they were his tactics. However, we need to look deeper and he had nothing to do with what happened here before his appointment, he had nothing to do with the championship quality players he inherited, and he was not given any money to strengthen the side the way he would have liked.
You need to look no further than the circus running our club if you really want to blame someone, they are the real culprits, Sam is just this seasons huckleberry. It will be someone else soon.........
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Can only assume you mean automatic promotion as he has been directly promoted out of the Championship twice in his only 2 full seasons in it.
Correct because the perception on here amongst his supporters is that he will bring us back up immediately , easily , comfortably based on his past record that just isn’t true
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Correct because the perception on here amongst his supporters is that he will bring us back up immediately , easily , comfortably based on his past record that just isn’t true
His supporters? We're Albion supporters (well most of us).
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The definition of 'cop out' is avoid doing something that one ought to do
Sam certainly did not cop out. He tried and failed. Is it his fault?, well yes partly, he set the team up and they were his tactics. However, we need to look deeper and he had nothing to do with what happened here before his appointment, he had nothing to do with the championship quality players he inherited, and he was not given any money to strengthen the side the way he would have liked.
You need to look no further than the circus running our club if you really want to blame someone, they are the real culprits, Sam is just this seasons huckleberry. It will be someone else soon.........
Nobody forced him to take the job. I'm sure hes getting paid very generously and would have got a huge bonus if he achieved what was expected of him. I don't blame the board for taking the punt on him but it hasn't worked. I think Sam would probably get us promoted but at what cost? He will want it all his own way and I don't think that's a good idea. Not many clubs and their supporters look back fondly on him despite never really failing anywhere else
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Nobody forced him to take the job. I'm sure hes getting paid very generously and would have got a huge bonus if he achieved what was expected of him. I don't blame the board for taking the punt on him but it hasn't worked. I think Sam would probably get us promoted but at what cost? He will want it all his own way and I don't think that's a good idea. Not many clubs and their supporters look back fondly on him despite never really failing anywhere else
There is going to be a cost in getting promoted regardless of who is in charge, not sure why some are suggesting it will be worse with Sam. Sure, he had failed in keeping us up but I have been encouraged by some of the players he has brought in (or Dowling, or the groundsman - wouldn’t want to give him too much credit) so I would like to see him have a go. Not really bothered about what other clubs think of him, they need to remember he avoided relegation for them and improved their teams.
Personally I want him to take full control of the team, it is pretty obvious that there is no else there with a scooby
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Nobody has said he *should* have kept us up - just that was what he was hired to do and he's failed. When Sam took the job at no point did he said there was no chance of keeping us in the Prem, it was all about how we had a good quality in the squad to give us a chance. All this "nobody would have kept us up" is just revisionsim - when he took the job the aim was very clearly to keep us up. If he thought 1.24 points per game was impossible with this squad then maybe he should have given the job to somebody who thought it was possible. So either he thought we could do it, and he's failed, or he knew we couldn't and took the job anyway because he wanted to get paid.
Anyway, it's not so much the results, it's the performances and the mindset. It's setting out to get draws against relegation rivals, it's sitting on the edge of your own 18 yard box for most of the match, it's averaging around 30% possession game after game, it's conceding 3+ goals in several games running, it's picking Kanu, it's getting a poor defence to spend 70% of the game defending, it's moaning about the fixture list but not using all your subs, it's watching your goal difference get hammered, it's refusing to play Diangana, it's having a must win game against your rivals and starting with 5 defenders on the pitch and dropping the player who was the catalyst for the few good results.
These aren't unlucky things, or factors of a poor squad, it's the mindset of a manager who still thinks you can defend the edge of your box for 80 mins and nick a goal. A few good results and performances and suddenly it's like the rest of his tenure didn't happen. Let's face it, he was forced into the change against Chelsea and we lucked out, we followed that up against Southampton, and then he's very quickly reverted back to "must. defend. goal." even in games where we HAVE to win.
In a must win match, against our local rivals, he starts with 5 defenders on the pitch, and 3 midfielders who are all known to be better defensively. The only attacking intent on the pitch was Pierera and Diagne. In a must win match. I genuinely wouldn't have criticised him if he'd have gone for it and we lost - because we have to go for it. Likewise I didn't blame him for the team he picked against Leicester.
Not “revisionism†for me.
The more apposite noun is “realismâ€
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I keep reading that Wolves was a 'must win' game from the Allardici doubters. Why was it? We were down weeks ago. It was a 'must not lose' game for me and that was comfortably achieved.
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I keep reading that Wolves was a 'must win' game from the Allardici doubters. Why was it? We were down weeks ago. It was a 'must not lose' game for me and that was comfortably achieved.
Because until it's mathematical impossible your team shouldn't give up.
And I'd still rather we went into games against our rivals looking to win rather than to draw.
And when we set up to draw we invariably look very poor.
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There is going to be a cost in getting promoted regardless of who is in charge, not sure why some are suggesting it will be worse with Sam. Sure, he had failed in keeping us up but I have been encouraged by some of the players he has brought in (or Dowling, or the groundsman - wouldn’t want to give him too much credit) so I would like to see him have a go. Not really bothered about what other clubs think of him, they need to remember he avoided relegation for them and improved their teams.
Personally I want him to take full control of the team, it is pretty obvious that there is no else there with a scooby
I believe I have explained why I think the costs are likely to be higher with SA.
Undoubtedly, there will be players that clubs will want to unload, & they might be willing to sell without a transfer fee, but players will demand that contracts are fulfilled, which means that even player loans & wages would be expensive.
Just to give the argument a benchmark, a squad of 26 players on an average £20,000 a week would give an annual wages bill of £26 million.
We have a 26 man squad & I believe we have 6 players who will be out of contract this June 30th. Our wage bill last season was around £59 million (2019 £42 million) so there might be opportunities to replace those 6 with less expensive versions, but it's unlikely if we're focusing on experienced EPL players.
There is also the small matter of Diangana & Grant sitting on our books with an asset value of around £33 million, who are not being used. As things stand, I couldn't see us getting anywhere near that sum if we moved them on, so a write off just isn't an option.
We showed an operating loss last year of £23 million (when we had gate receipts up to March). This season we will have had zero gate receipts & it's likely that most of the media money from promotion was spent on wages, so I'm expecting another loss this year.
I believe that parachute payments next season will also be reduced due to additional "claw backs" from media companies, so I'm not sure have much income we're going to have.
Really don't think we're going to have the available income to give SA the assurances he will demand.
If he takes the job on that basis, he's going to have to be more pragmatic, than he's been up to now.
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Not “revisionism†for me.
The more apposite noun is “reality.â€
3 pts off safety, 25 games to play and a transfer window, is not impossible.
Just curious, why do you think we hired Sam on the contract we did if everyone involved thought staying up was impossible?
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It wasn't impossible, it has only turned out to be impossible. We needed the safety line to be a lot lower and it simply hasn't transpired that way.
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Because until it's mathematical impossible your team shouldn't give up.
And I'd still rather we went into games against our rivals looking to win rather than to draw.
And when we set up to draw we invariably look very poor.
We set up to be in the game, keep it tight and try to take our chances when they come. We aren't good enough to go gung ho against anyone in this league. Wolves didn't set up as expected so Sam changed it early on. With better finishing and/or barring a freak goal we win that game.
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3 pts off safety, 25 games to play and a transfer window, is not impossible.
Just curious, why do you think we hired Sam on the contract we did if everyone involved thought staying up was impossible?
Because repeating the same thing and expecting different results is madness. You must try something different, even if you have grave doubts it will succeed.
Signings were too late, the points distribution this season hasn’t helped, but by far the biggest problem is the team was totally inadequate.
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Because repeating the same thing and expecting different results is madness. You must try something different, even if you have grave doubts it will succeed.
Signings were too late, the points distribution this season hasn’t helped, but by far the biggest problem is the team was totally inadequate.
If the team was totally inadequate, there really wasn't any point in trying something different.
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We set up to be in the game, keep it tight and try to take our chances when they come. We aren't good enough to go gung ho against anyone in this league. Wolves didn't set up as expected so Sam changed it early on. With better finishing and/or barring a freak goal we win that game.
If we’d have set up like we did against Southampton then I’m pretty sure we’d have won comfortably. It is probably the only time the handbrake has been off this season and resulted in a great performance and win. We had absolutely nothing to lose yesterday yet still approached the game in a defensive manner.
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If we’d have set up like we did against Southampton then I’m pretty sure we’d have won comfortably. It is probably the only time the handbrake has been off this season and resulted in a great performance and win. We had absolutely nothing to lose yesterday yet still approached the game in a defensive manner.
We had our BCD home undefeated streak to lose and we didn't lose it. We took our chances against Southampton, we didn't take them yesterday, regardless of how you think we did or didn't set up.
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For the the first time in yonks, I’ve just skimmed through this thread. Football has now joined up with with religion and politics as none winnable subjects to discuss.
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If the team was totally inadequate, there really wasn't any point in trying something different.
Perhaps there wasn’t. But a drowning man will look in desperation for any passing driftwood that might just carry him to shore, rather than just accept his fate.
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It wasn't impossible, it has only turned out to be impossible. We needed the safety line to be a lot lower and it simply hasn't transpired that way.
The safety line would have to have been 30 points maximum which it never is. Why 30 points? Let’s see how many we end up with.
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The safety line would have to have been 30 points maximum which it never is. Why 30 points? Let’s see how many we end up with.
Just not the case. If Burnley and or Newcastle CURRENTLY had 30 points there would be a lot more riding on our and their games. As it stands any slip up on our part and they're all dead rubbers.
33 or 34 is what we needed the high tide line to be imo, and it would still have been one of the great escapes.
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I keep seeing posters referring to us being unable to defend and therefore our set up wrong.
Our best premier league form has always been when we have been pragmatic, hard to beat and clinical when needed. The assumption from some is that we need to go full throttle attack which will clearly open up the team and actually make us more vulnerable to defeats.
If you review our form from match day 23 which was a defeat against Spurs then our record is the following:
14 points from 12 games, 12th in the league. In that time we’ve scored 13 goals and conceded 13. Worth noting that those period of fixtures included Chelsea, man United, Leicester and Tottenham whereby we conceded 8 of those 13 goals.
Our defensive record in that time are joint 5th for the best in the division. Throughout that period only 9 teams have scored more goals than us and those teams are the top 7.
This side is hard to beat, it is competitive and with a distinctly average bunch of players is showing the hallmarks of a good side in this division.
This notion that we’re not any good at defending and that it does not suit us is simply untrue. They are demonstrating that they are capable of defending in this division. Furthermore, some of our forward play has been easy on the eye and had we been more clinical in some games then our points tally would be greater.
I’ve used the benchmark of week 23 as that is when SA had the full quota of loan signings to choose from. I accept that it has taken to long to get here, but for a side which were whipping boys before Christmas, then I am pleased to finally see this bunch of players showing some resolve in this division.
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For the the first time in yonks, I’ve just skimmed through this thread. Football has now joined up with with religion and politics as none winnable subjects to discuss.
Got to the point where I'm not skimming so much as taking leaps and bounds across a lilly pond, surprisingly supple and athletic for a bloke of my age. Mind you the water's kinder on my knees than hard surfaces.
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I keep seeing posters referring to us being unable to defend and therefore our set up wrong.
Our best premier league form has always been when we have been pragmatic, hard to beat and clinical when needed. The assumption from some is that we need to go full throttle attack which will clearly open up the team and actually make us more vulnerable to defeats.
If you review our form from match day 23 which was a defeat against Spurs then our record is the following:
14 points from 12 games, 12th in the league. In that time we’ve scored 13 goals and conceded 13. Worth noting that those period of fixtures included Chelsea, man United, Leicester and Tottenham whereby we conceded 8 of those 13 goals.
Our defensive record in that time are joint 5th for the best in the division. Throughout that period only 9 teams have scored more goals than us and those teams are the top 7.
This side is hard to beat, it is competitive and with a distinctly average bunch of players is showing the hallmarks of a good side in this division.
This notion that we’re not any good at defending and that it does not suit us is simply untrue. They are demonstrating that they are capable of defending in this division. Furthermore, some of our forward play has been easy on the eye and had we been more clinical in some games then our points tally would be greater.
I’ve used the benchmark of week 23 as that is when SA had the full quota of loan signings to choose from. I accept that it has taken to long to get here, but for a side which were whipping boys before Christmas, then I am pleased to finally see this bunch of players showing some resolve in this division.
Top post. Fully agree
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I keep seeing posters referring to us being unable to defend and therefore our set up wrong.
Our best premier league form has always been when we have been pragmatic, hard to beat and clinical when needed. The assumption from some is that we need to go full throttle attack which will clearly open up the team and actually make us more vulnerable to defeats.
If you review our form from match day 23 which was a defeat against Spurs then our record is the following:
14 points from 12 games, 12th in the league. In that time we’ve scored 13 goals and conceded 13. Worth noting that those period of fixtures included Chelsea, man United, Leicester and Tottenham whereby we conceded 8 of those 13 goals.
Our defensive record in that time are joint 5th for the best in the division. Throughout that period only 9 teams have scored more goals than us and those teams are the top 7.
This side is hard to beat, it is competitive and with a distinctly average bunch of players is showing the hallmarks of a good side in this division.
This notion that we’re not any good at defending and that it does not suit us is simply untrue. They are demonstrating that they are capable of defending in this division. Furthermore, some of our forward play has been easy on the eye and had we been more clinical in some games then our points tally would be greater.
I’ve used the benchmark of week 23 as that is when SA had the full quota of loan signings to choose from. I accept that it has taken to long to get here, but for a side which were whipping boys before Christmas, then I am pleased to finally see this bunch of players showing some resolve in this division.
A common sense post at last.
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I believe I have explained why I think the costs are likely to be higher with SA.
Undoubtedly, there will be players that clubs will want to unload, & they might be willing to sell without a transfer fee, but players will demand that contracts are fulfilled, which means that even player loans & wages would be expensive.
Just to give the argument a benchmark, a squad of 26 players on an average £20,000 a week would give an annual wages bill of £26 million.
We have a 26 man squad & I believe we have 6 players who will be out of contract this June 30th. Our wage bill last season was around £59 million (2019 £42 million) so there might be opportunities to replace those 6 with less expensive versions, but it's unlikely if we're focusing on experienced EPL players.
There is also the small matter of Diangana & Grant sitting on our books with an asset value of around £33 million, who are not being used. As things stand, I couldn't see us getting anywhere near that sum if we moved them on, so a write off just isn't an option.
We showed an operating loss last year of £23 million (when we had gate receipts up to March). This season we will have had zero gate receipts & it's likely that most of the media money from promotion was spent on wages, so I'm expecting another loss this year.
I believe that parachute payments next season will also be reduced due to additional "claw backs" from media companies, so I'm not sure have much income we're going to have.
Really don't think we're going to have the available income to give SA the assurances he will demand.
If he takes the job on that basis, he's going to have to be more pragmatic, than he's been up to now.
Thanks John, I missed your earlier post.
You make some relevant points. In short, money is tight but I think that applies to the majority of clubs in the league. I also think that Diangana and Grant will be fully utilised next season as well, so if we can get a tune out of them hopefully they will attract the type of fee we laid out for them. Both proven in the championship but not so in the Premier.
We will have to wait and see if Sam fancies the challenge but I remain unconvinced that it will be any more expensive than under anyone else.
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Good post Liam.
However I think those who believe our best form of defence is attack are basing their opinions on evidence based examples garnered from game week one as opposed to the more recent time frame.
The ramparts have been reinforced since game week twenty three but they stand on foundations of cranial incontinence. We're only ever a brain fart from being in a right old mess.
I believe they believe we're better off dumping our bombs on our opponents heads before our opponents dump their bombs on ours. Or summat like that.
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3 pts off safety, 25 games to play and a transfer window, is not impossible.
Just curious, why do you think we hired Sam on the contract we did if everyone involved thought staying up was impossible?
It wasn't impossible, it has only turned out to be impossible. We needed the safety line to be a lot lower and it simply hasn't transpired that way.
The Titanic was unsinkable but it turned out that it was sinkable - stuff happens. Maybe if we'd have been 3 points above safety ...
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I keep seeing posters referring to us being unable to defend and therefore our set up wrong.
Our best premier league form has always been when we have been pragmatic, hard to beat and clinical when needed. The assumption from some is that we need to go full throttle attack which will clearly open up the team and actually make us more vulnerable to defeats.
If you review our form from match day 23 which was a defeat against Spurs then our record is the following:
14 points from 12 games, 12th in the league. In that time we’ve scored 13 goals and conceded 13. Worth noting that those period of fixtures included Chelsea, man United, Leicester and Tottenham whereby we conceded 8 of those 13 goals.
Our defensive record in that time are joint 5th for the best in the division. Throughout that period only 9 teams have scored more goals than us and those teams are the top 7.
This side is hard to beat, it is competitive and with a distinctly average bunch of players is showing the hallmarks of a good side in this division.
This notion that we’re not any good at defending and that it does not suit us is simply untrue. They are demonstrating that they are capable of defending in this division. Furthermore, some of our forward play has been easy on the eye and had we been more clinical in some games then our points tally would be greater.
I’ve used the benchmark of week 23 as that is when SA had the full quota of loan signings to choose from. I accept that it has taken to long to get here, but for a side which were whipping boys before Christmas, then I am pleased to finally see this bunch of players showing some resolve in this division.
Simply put our best performances and points yielded came from defending from the front, not capitulating on our 18yd line. So what did the genius do, revert to the 18yard line. :-\
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It's an amazing point of view though. The job is possible, until it turns out to be impossible - then you can say the job was actually impossible from when they were hired. No failure to see here - it was impossible from the start - except when it actually started and it was possible. But it's impossible now. I think I've got it.
Staying up was possible if we knew the number of points needed to stay up would be a record low. We didn't know that at the time - 38 pts is the average of what's been needed the last 5 years. It seems entirely fair to say the board, the manager and the players all thought that 38 pts was in reach - that's why we made the change and brough Sam in.
I don't recall a single interview where anyone from the club said we can only stay up if the number of points needed is 32 or something. If they had, and someone can link me up to it, I'll reverse my opinion on Sam's success as we'll be near enough the target.
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Simply put our best performances and points yielded came from defending from the front, not capitulating on our 18yd line. So what did the genius do, revert to the 18yard line. :-\
Are you trying to tell me we didnt revert to the 18 yard box under Pulis? I remember one particular game vs a poor Stoke side at home and we didnt cross the half way line other than Rondon for the first 25 minutes.
Liam is bang on right with everything he says.
We didnt retreat to the 18 yard box against Wolves either. They pushed their full backs forward in support of their wide men which kept our wing backs back so we couldn't get out. That's how you can succeed against wing backs if you play a four at the back you overload the wide areas 2 on 1 and it makes it very difficult for the other team to impose themselves, especially if they fail to keep the ball well.
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The Zonal Marking podcast from the Athletic did a piece on the three (effectively) relegated clubs today. One guy does consistently talk in XG (Expected goals) to an annoying extent and doesn't tend to provide much insight beyond that. So I do tend to take his input with a pinch of salt.
Still interesting that extrapolating out Bilic's portion of the season in charge would have seen us been the worst performing team on that basis over past six years. Since Allardyce's return we have been on the cusp of teetering just above the relegation zone; including the succession of games we were getting regularly battered 3 , 4 or 5 to nil.
A mixture of fitness and getting decent signings that had relatively quick impact I think are probably the two main reasons for that.
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I keep seeing posters referring to us being unable to defend and therefore our set up wrong.
Our best premier league form has always been when we have been pragmatic, hard to beat and clinical when needed. The assumption from some is that we need to go full throttle attack which will clearly open up the team and actually make us more vulnerable to defeats.
If you review our form from match day 23 which was a defeat against Spurs then our record is the following:
14 points from 12 games, 12th in the league. In that time we’ve scored 13 goals and conceded 13. Worth noting that those period of fixtures included Chelsea, man United, Leicester and Tottenham whereby we conceded 8 of those 13 goals.
Our defensive record in that time are joint 5th for the best in the division. Throughout that period only 9 teams have scored more goals than us and those teams are the top 7.
This side is hard to beat, it is competitive and with a distinctly average bunch of players is showing the hallmarks of a good side in this division.
This notion that we’re not any good at defending and that it does not suit us is simply untrue. They are demonstrating that they are capable of defending in this division. Furthermore, some of our forward play has been easy on the eye and had we been more clinical in some games then our points tally would be greater.
I’ve used the benchmark of week 23 as that is when SA had the full quota of loan signings to choose from. I accept that it has taken to long to get here, but for a side which were whipping boys before Christmas, then I am pleased to finally see this bunch of players showing some resolve in this division.
Lock this thread and throw away the key, nothing more needs to be said on the subject.
I didn't want Allardyce, but at least he's made us competitive. A far cry from the unfit, disorganised shambles we were for the last ten months under Bilic.
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Are you trying to tell me we didnt revert to the 18 yard box under Pulis? I remember one particular game vs a poor Stoke side at home and we didnt cross the half way line other than Rondon for the first 25 minutes.
Liam is bang on right with everything he says.
We didnt retreat to the 18 yard box against Wolves either. They pushed their full backs forward in support of their wide men which kept our wing backs back so we couldn't get out. That's how you can succeed against wing backs if you play a four at the back you overload the wide areas 2 on 1 and it makes it very difficult for the other team to impose themselves, especially if they fail to keep the ball well.
No idea why you're going on about Pulis - we don't want those days back do we?
We did retreat to the 18 yard box against Wolves, especially early on before we were forced to make the change because we got the set up so wrong. I can't remember when the start was produced - sometime during the 1st half but I mention it in the match thread - but 3% of the play was in Wolves' THIRD of the pitch. Even at the start when we expected them to line up with 3 at the back and they went with 4 - it should have meant our wingbacks would get forward and we'd have the extra man in midfield. Except we barely got out of our half. Where was our goal going to come from with the only two attacking players on the pitch being Pierera and Diangana?
This is why some of us have a problem with Sam. When we choose these tactics we lose all control of the game and don't even look vaguely like a threat. It's just defending for your lives, smashing it clear and giving the ball away and hoping we hold on. When we press further up the pitch, win the ball back earlier, and attack we look miles better.
Which makes it mind-boggling that Sam keeps reverting to the 18 yard line tactics. It only takes a long range effort, the ball to drop kindly, a mistake from a defender and that's you conceded. It's what happened against Villa - when we attacked we looked dangerous, when we sat deeper and deeper we look shakey. It doesn't help that we don't have a keeper who commands his box, and we have a mistake waiting to happen in Ajayi, or fullbacks prone to being caught out of position.
We are better at it now than when Sam took over (not hard, you can't keep being battered 3/4/5 to nill all the time), but it's still not the strength of the team. And in situations like ours, where we need the 3 points - it seems an even crazier approach.
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The thing is, we don't have that balance between defence and attack.
We've got better at defending when we stick every many on the edge of our own box - you'd expect that. But when we do that we don't have any possession and it completely nullifies any attacking strategy we have beyond "win a set piece". We don't seem to have a plan on how to transition from defending deep to getting possession further up the field other than hoping Diagne chases something down.
When we've pushed teams onto the backfoot, we've lost a bit defensively but it means we've scored goals and look a threat. The goals for\against over the last few weeks looks great but we're a Jekyll and Hyde team when it comes to tactics.
The closest we've come to that balance was against Southampton - and our tactics were much closer to the game against Chelsea than it was to the game against Wolves.
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No idea why you're going on about Pulis - we don't want those days back do we?
We did retreat to the 18 yard box against Wolves, especially early on before we were forced to make the change because we got the set up so wrong. I can't remember when the start was produced - sometime during the 1st half but I mention it in the match thread - but 3% of the play was in Wolves' THIRD of the pitch. Even at the start when we expected them to line up with 3 at the back and they went with 4 - it should have meant our wingbacks would get forward and we'd have the extra man in midfield. Except we barely got out of our half. Where was our goal going to come from with the only two attacking players on the pitch being Pierera and Diangana?
This is why some of us have a problem with Sam. When we choose these tactics we lose all control of the game and don't even look vaguely like a threat. It's just defending for your lives, smashing it clear and giving the ball away and hoping we hold on. When we press further up the pitch, win the ball back earlier, and attack we look miles better.
Which makes it mind-boggling that Sam keeps reverting to the 18 yard line tactics. It only takes a long range effort, the ball to drop kindly, a mistake from a defender and that's you conceded. It's what happened against Villa - when we attacked we looked dangerous, when we sat deeper and deeper we look shakey. It doesn't help that we don't have a keeper who commands his box, and we have a mistake waiting to happen in Ajayi, or fullbacks prone to being caught out of position.
We are better at it now than when Sam took over (not hard, you can't keep being battered 3/4/5 to nill all the time), but it's still not the strength of the team. And in situations like ours, where we need the 3 points - it seems an even crazier approach.
I just posted a detailed reply to your post but my phone got rid of it for some reason and I cant be bothered to type it all again.
So you get away with it this time. 😉
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His pre-match interviews have been 'interesting' of late.
Before the Leicester game he was airing his gripe about the fixtures with having to play Villa on the Sunday...hardly a positive vibe. We played that game against Leicester as though we were minimising energy output.
Then against Wolves he talked about having to be solid...hardly get on the front foot stuff. I had no problems with the team that was picked but the positive intent wasn't there. We've seen it enough it's hard to go up through the gears when you start slowly.
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Are you trying to tell me we didnt revert to the 18 yard box under Pulis? I remember one particular game vs a poor Stoke side at home and we didnt cross the half way line other than Rondon for the first 25 minutes.
Liam is bang on right with everything he says.
We didnt retreat to the 18 yard box against Wolves either. They pushed their full backs forward in support of their wide men which kept our wing backs back so we couldn't get out. That's how you can succeed against wing backs if you play a four at the back you overload the wide areas 2 on 1 and it makes it very difficult for the other team to impose themselves, especially if they fail to keep the ball well.
Please don't use Pulis as justification for tactical aplomb, the coward was inept and comparing SA to him sort of justifies my stance
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It's an amazing point of view though. The job is possible, until it turns out to be impossible - then you can say the job was actually impossible from when they were hired. No failure to see here - it was impossible from the start - except when it actually started and it was possible. But it's impossible now. I think I've got it.
Staying up was possible if we knew the number of points needed to stay up would be a record low. We didn't know that at the time - 38 pts is the average of what's been needed the last 5 years. It seems entirely fair to say the board, the manager and the players all thought that 38 pts was in reach - that's why we made the change and brough Sam in.
I don't recall a single interview where anyone from the club said we can only stay up if the number of points needed is 32 or something. If they had, and someone can link me up to it, I'll reverse my opinion on Sam's success as we'll be near enough the target.
I think its a waste of time trying to guess how many points will be needed to survive relegation. Allardyce did it as well when he started. It's different every season and nobody can predict all the results of the teams involved. You should be just trying to get the maximum points from every game.
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It as if people think we decide how the game will go and the opposition have no say in it.
Opposition performance
Momentum
Confidence
The way the opening 5 minutes of a match go and who grabs the initiative.
All things that could make a game plan in any individual match silly or ill thought out. He judged the situation and made a change. Most managers wouldn't have. We still conceded after the change but it was still the right call.
The 'he was employed to keep us up and won't so he's failed and should go' is also such a lazy argument I'm struggling for the inclination to argue with it in any depth.
Liam's post is fantastic. We are much improved under Allardyce, the results are much better and for me at least he inspires confidence that he will take us in the right direction. I do share some of Stan's reservations about problems he could leave us with, but that up to Dowling (unfortunately) to manage him and keep a bigger picture in mind.
SA will no doubt want some assurances for next season, like he did for this but it doesn't seem like he was overly unreasonable since he only got 3 loans and free transfer with at least some money coming back in from moving Krov and Austin out.
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It as if people think we decide how the game will go and the opposition have no say in it.
Opposition performance
Momentum
Confidence
The way the opening 5 minutes of a match go and who grabs the initiative.
All things that could make a game plan in any individual match silly or ill thought out. He judged the situation and made a change. Most managers wouldn't have. We still conceded after the change but it was still the right call.
The 'he was employed to keep us up and won't so he's failed and should go' is also such a lazy argument I'm struggling for the inclination to argue with it in any depth.
Liam's post is fantastic. We are much improved under Allardyce, the results are much better and for me at least he inspires confidence that he will take us in the right direction. I do share some of Stan's reservations about problems he could leave us with, but that up to Dowling (unfortunately) to manage him and keep a bigger picture in mind.
SA will no doubt want some assurances for next season, like he did for this but it doesn't seem like he was overly unreasonable since he only got 3 loans and free transfer with at least some money coming back in from moving Krov and Austin out.
Momentum particularly is lost on a lot of posters on here. Teams that are winning very often get pushed back as the opposition seek parity. Not always, as stated with depressing inevitability on here, choosing to sit back.
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It as if people think we decide how the game will go and the opposition have no say in it.
Opposition performance
Momentum
Confidence
The way the opening 5 minutes of a match go and who grabs the initiative.
All things that could make a game plan in any individual match silly or ill thought out. He judged the situation and made a change. Most managers wouldn't have. We still conceded after the change but it was still the right call.
The 'he was employed to keep us up and won't so he's failed and should go' is also such a lazy argument I'm struggling for the inclination to argue with it in any depth.
Liam's post is fantastic. We are much improved under Allardyce, the results are much better and for me at least he inspires confidence that he will take us in the right direction. I do share some of Stan's reservations about problems he could leave us with, but that up to Dowling (unfortunately) to manage him and keep a bigger picture in mind.
SA will no doubt want some assurances for next season, like he did for this but it doesn't seem like he was overly unreasonable since he only got 3 loans and free transfer with at least some money coming back in from moving Krov and Austin out.
Think I would take issue with the sentence in bold being a lazy argument.
SA was employed to keep us up & (baring a miracle) he has failed, had he succeeded, undoubtedly his tenure would have been extended.
The fact that he failed allows the football club to revue their position & look for the best way forward.
Personally, I'm on the same page as Stan, if it were my FC, I'd look towards a re-build with a much stronger structure, which would be more attractive to a buyer.
From commentators who know the Chinese political scene well, it looks as though GL is under some considerable pressure to get rid. So it's likely that we'll end up with a cobbled together, lowest possible cost, sticking plaster solution. I couldn't think of another manager better equipped to deliver that than SA.
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I know nuance is lost in modern discourse but for me Allardyces tenure has both positive and negative too it. It’s obvious we are more competitive and in games and harder to beat now we have a more settled side and more quality. Allardyce bringing in Yoksulu particularly made a difference and shows he saw some of our deficiencies.
On the flip side we haven’t won games we should have and will be relegated and we will likely end up not even coming close to staying up points wise.
The way the conversation on the thread has gone at times you’d think Sams either Terry Connor or Guardiola. What if he’s done ok but not brilliant. If he stays fair enough I don’t actually mind but I would also be open to someone else. This season bar Chelsea and the Dingles feels pretty forgettable.
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Momentum particularly is lost on a lot of posters on here. Teams that are winning very often get pushed back as the opposition seek parity. Not always, as stated with depressing inevitability on here, choosing to sit back.
That was Mourinho's excuse to explain the setbacks at Spurs before he got the sack. Allardyce likes to play with a lower block than Bilic, that's obvious, that doesn't make him Tony Pulis either - he's not that sort of dinosaur.
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Momentum particularly is lost on a lot of posters on here. Teams that are winning very often get pushed back as the opposition seek parity. Not always, as stated with depressing inevitability on here, choosing to sit back.
Momentum is bi-directional, go in front and push on to positively win the game rather than go passive or defensive
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Think I would take issue with the sentence in bold being a lazy argument.
SA was employed to keep us up & (baring a miracle) he has failed, had he succeeded, undoubtedly his tenure would have been extended.
The fact that he failed allows the football club to revue their position & look for the best way forward.
Personally, I'm on the same page as Stan, if it were my FC, I'd look towards a re-build with a much stronger structure, which would be more attractive to a buyer.
From commentators who know the Chinese political scene well, it looks as though GL is under some considerable pressure to get rid. So it's likely that we'll end up with a cobbled together, lowest possible cost, sticking plaster solution. I couldn't think of another manager better equipped to deliver that than SA.
Sam Allardyce was employed to ‘try’ and keep us up. It’s an important distinction. I very much doubt he ever made any guarantees.
Unfortunately until he was able to change some personnel he found it difficult. I think given the position we were in and how bad we were, the majority of managers would have struggled, good and bad.
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Think I would take issue with the sentence in bold being a lazy argument.
SA was employed to keep us up & (baring a miracle) he has failed, had he succeeded, undoubtedly his tenure would have been extended.
The fact that he failed allows the football club to revue their position & look for the best way forward.
Personally, I'm on the same page as Stan, if it were my FC, I'd look towards a re-build with a much stronger structure, which would be more attractive to a buyer.
From commentators who know the Chinese political scene well, it looks as though GL is under some considerable pressure to get rid. So it's likely that we'll end up with a cobbled together, lowest possible cost, sticking plaster solution. I couldn't think of another manager better equipped to deliver that than SA.
Not an Allardyce fan and will be glad when he has gone, but this is an excellent point, and most unfortunately I have to agree with the last part as well. :(
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Nominated for manager of the month for April. Well done Big Sam.
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Nominated for manager of the month for April. Well done Big Sam.
That's us stuffed.
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Nominated for manager of the month for April. Well done Big Sam.
Not by me he wasn't
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That's us stuffed.
4 defeats to come then. ;D
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Nominated for manager of the month for April. Well done Big Sam.
Hopefully he looks at what he did in April to get himself nominated and takes that going forward.
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well done Sam, may upset a few on here though :D
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I have my reservations about Allardyce next season can he realise that we need to be the front footed side that played against Southampton / Chelsea & not the team that turned up against Wolves, Palace & Newcastle.
If he plays front foot attacking football we will walk that league next year if he doesn’t we’l struggle to make the playoffs. Can he spot a creative player like Pereira that you need to unlock teams at that level, you need pragmatism to stay up in the Premier League you need creativity to get promoted out of the championship. That’s where my reservations lie can Sam change enough of the other way from been pragmatic to front foot creative football.
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I have my reservations about Allardyce next season can he realise that we need to be the front footed side that played against Southampton / Chelsea & not the team that turned up against Wolves, Palace & Newcastle.
If he plays front foot attacking football we will walk that league next year if he doesn’t we’l struggle to make the playoffs. Can he spot a creative player like Pereira that you need to unlock teams at that level, you need pragmatism to stay up in the Premier League you need creativity to get promoted out of the championship. That’s where my reservations lie can Sam change enough of the other way from been pragmatic to front foot creative football.
This is exactly my worry. I feel we won’t lose many but will draw far too many to give any chance of automatic promotion.
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I have no doubt that I'd Sam stays and is allowed to do his thing, we'll be promoted comfortably.
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I have no doubt that I'd Sam stays and is allowed to do his thing, we'll be promoted comfortably.
And I truly hope you’re right.
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Bye Bye Allardyce.
Bus stop is outside main entrance.
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"It's going to be hard to keep Pereria at West Brom" according to SA in the E and S, "you don't know what he's thinking"
Read more here
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/08/big-sam-its-going-to-be-hard-to-keep-pereira-at-west-brom/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/08/big-sam-its-going-to-be-hard-to-keep-pereira-at-west-brom/)
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I hope the decision is made within a day or two of mathematical certainty, we need a good summer squad refit with the manager in place to hit the ground running next season
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"It's going to be hard to keep Pereria at West Brom" according to SA in the E and S, "you don't know what he's thinking"
Read more here
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/08/big-sam-its-going-to-be-hard-to-keep-pereira-at-west-brom/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/08/big-sam-its-going-to-be-hard-to-keep-pereira-at-west-brom/)
Unbelievable. "You don't know what he's thinking"
Erm, maybe invite him into the office and have a chat with him Sam. Then you might, just might, begin to know what he is thinking and start talking some sense at your press conferences..
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Unbelievable. "You don't know what he's thinking"
Erm, maybe invite him into the office and have a chat with him Sam. Then you might, just might, begin to know what he is thinking and start talking some sense at your press conferences..
Not going to say anything direct is he (MP)? But you'd have thought SA would have his ear to the grapevine.
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Unbelievable. "You don't know what he's thinking"
Erm, maybe invite him into the office and have a chat with him Sam. Then you might, just might, begin to know what he is thinking and start talking some sense at your press conferences..
Sorry mate but thats just jumping on Allardyce over nothing , he might already know but theres still 4 games to play .Periera might not want to talk about it until the seasons done , Allardyce himself isn't confirmed as staying. The Covid hit market might not get him his move.....
So many things up in the air right now its impossible to go too far into plans . Not massive on Allardyce myself I might add .
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I disagree with that I have managed people where they open up and chat whilst others will tell you what you want to hear rather than how they really are feeling.
I see Perriera has being one of these people, the first time you know they are unhappy is when the resignation letter or in his case transfer request comes in.
I would think Sam has heard something but knows the player keeps his cards close to his chest.
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Sorry mate but thats just jumping on Allardyce over nothing , he might already know but theres still 4 games to play .Periera might not want to talk about it until the seasons done , Allardyce himself isn't confirmed as staying. The Covid hit market might not get him his move.....
So many things up in the air right now its impossible to go too far into plans . Not massive on Allardyce myself I might add .
Easy answer then. Say something meaningful or say nothing at all. Just try not to talk meaningless b*******
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Easy answer then. Say something meaningful or say nothing at all. Just try not to talk meaningless b*******
Easier said than done right now.
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He was asked a question and gave an honest answer.
I remember both Megson and Mowbray saying similar about Koumas in the fact they struggled to understand what was going through his mind.
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He was asked a question and gave an honest answer.
I remember both Megson and Mowbray saying similar about Koumas in the fact they struggled to understand what was going through his mind.
From memory Koumas struggled to understand what was going through his mind.
Cannot see anything wrong the answer Sam gave to be honest. Pereira is a special talent so it may be that he is considering his options and who can blame him.
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All he had to say was "I don't know"
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All he had to say was "I don't know"
Then some people would have used him saying that as a stick to beat him with. Whatever he says he isn't going to please someone.
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Then some people would have used him saying that as a stick to beat him with. Whatever he says he isn't going to please someone.
True, him keeping quiet is best way for him to please me, I find him totally de-motivating
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Nothing really wrong with what Sam has said there. Does reveal that there might not much going on behind the scenes at the moment. Hopefully there is, not like we're unsure what division we'll be in so we should be making plans.
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Post match interview. Refused to answer any questions about his future or to say he wanted to stay.
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Put us out of our misery and walk away and take Dowling with you 2-0 down and answ. answer to that problem was to bring on HRK :o.
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he has a lot going for him but is not dynamic enough for me in his demeaner.After 20 minutes tonight it was obvious to most of us and the commentators that Saka was destroying us and eventually we paid the penalty for him not addressing the problem.
why has he got a fixation with Kanu who basically offers nothing but always makes an appearance after about 70 minutes.
The only positives he offered tonight were that he actually put Diagana on the pitch although I would have preferred him on the left wing where he did so well last season and 2 youngsters on the bench.
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Put us out of our misery and walk away and take Dowling with you 2-0 down and answ. answer to that problem was to bring on HRK :o.
Well what other options are there?
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Well what other options are there?
Anything other than take off one forward and replace him with Kanu. Did you really see Kanu spurring us on into getting 3 goals? I'd have at least seen some logic to stuck him on for Gallagher or something, and put an extra man up top.
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Anything other than take off one forward and replace him with Kanu. Did you really see Kanu spurring us on into getting 3 goals? I'd have at least seen some logic to stuck him on for Gallagher or something, and put an extra man up top.
So you wouldn’t put him on
But if taking off Gallagher you would have put him on..
Does that mean that if replacing Gallagher he could have inspired us to score three goals.
If not, which one of our forwards does feel like they will come on and get three ?
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I don’t think he’l be here next season, his lack of trust in Grady / Grant reflects very poorly on Dowling and I think ultimately Dowling will give Allarydce the elbow to try and save his own skin. If those 2 aren’t performing next season Dowling will be given his marching orders I’d think, in our financial position you can’t spend £32m on 2 players and have them sitting on the bench and Sam has shown he’s not willing to give game time to either and would want to bring his own players in during the transfer window.
Dowling will paint it that Allardyce was bought in to do a job, was given the resources and ultimately failed but I’d imagine Grady/Grant will be a big factor unless Allardyce gives assurances both will be regulars next season.
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we seem to have written off Grant.With problems over the delay in signing he probably arrived
unfit and in his few appearances he outjumped Pope but VAR thwarted him and he got an excellent goal against Brighton.I would certainly have given him more game time if the alternative was Kanu.
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So you wouldn’t put him on
But if taking off Gallagher you would have put him on..
Does that mean that if replacing Gallagher he could have inspired us to score three goals.
If not, which one of our forwards does feel like they will come on and get three ?
No. I wouldn't have put him on at all personally.
If he did come on and was pushed up alongside Diagne, while not what I would do, I could at least see a glimmer of logic in that.
Replacing like for like was the worst option he could have gone for when the 'like' is Kanu.
Other options would have been something like Diangana for Gallagher or Phillips and push Robinson up top as the extra man. Or using Grant, or a youngster, anything.
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Anything other than take off one forward and replace him with Kanu. Did you really see Kanu spurring us on into getting 3 goals? I'd have at least seen some logic to stuck him on for Gallagher or something, and put an extra man up top.
No - but given Diange was having a night off I’m not surprised we opted for HRK given he can at times hold the ball up.
The next substitution saw the introduction of Diangana.
Aside from that there is very little quality elsewhere to choose from.
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No - but given Diange was having a night off I’m not surprised we opted for HRK given he can at times hold the ball up.
The next substitution saw the introduction of Diangana.
Aside from that there is very little quality elsewhere to choose from.
Agree about the lack of quality.
It really worries me. I don’t see the same things that some others seem to see - that we have a team ready to be unleashed that’ll tear up the Championship.
I’m afraid I see just the opposite. This looks like a team composed largely of mid-level Championship players, and the results over almost 18 months tend to provide evidence to support that view.
I suppose it’s the conclusion from hard data stripped of wishful blue-and-white thinking.
We have significant weaknesses in every department, and unless there’s significant surgery coupled with some skilled coaching/management, I fear we’re going down in the worst shape we’ve been in for around 20 years.
This is a huge Summer for the club. The decisions made in the next few weeks may go a long way to determining what happens over the next 5-10 years, or possibly even longer.
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Agree about the lack of quality.
It really worries me. I don’t see the same things that some others seem to see - that we have a team ready to be unleashed that’ll tear up the Championship.
I’m afraid I see just the opposite. This looks like a team composed largely of mid-level Championship players, and the results over almost 18 months tend to provide evidence to support that view.
I suppose it’s the conclusion from hard data stripped of wishful blue-and-white thinking.
We have significant weaknesses in every department, and unless there’s significant surgery coupled with some skilled coaching/management, I fear we’re going down in the worst shape we’ve been in for around 20 years.
This is a huge Summer for the club. The decisions made in the next few weeks may go a long way to determining what happens over the next 5-10 years, or possibly even longer.
You are totally under-estimating the massive difference between Prem and Championship. Every player in last night's starting 11 is top 6 Championship.
I know we'll lose the loanees but we will be well placed, financially, to replace them.
Allardyce did himself no favours with the Diange for Kanu nonsense substitution, but, with or without him, we will challenge next year, I have no doubt whatsoever.
Roll on August.
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I don't think I've ever been so torn on a manager , theres plenty about Allardyce I'm not keen on but I also know he is most likely our best option at building a side again .Yes the loan players most likely will go but the base of 4 or 5 players at the back would be good enough , well stocked with GK's and wide players . They look fit and capable most games now .
The thought of Dowling searching for a new , cheap Manager makes me feel sick to be honest .
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If we keep Pereira, then we win the Championship, simple.
If we demand the huge fee for Pereira that we deserve £70m+) then surely we have the tools to buy 3 or 4 that are going to be stars in that division.
After Pereira the next biggest conundrum is if Johnstone stays or not and can we command £15m+?
Next biggest fagtor is Diangana, he is too good for the Championship and will be excellent asset.
The rest, I honestly feel we could discard as many as 12 permanent players and not really feel their loss to.any great extent.
I'm summary, whoever is WBA boss they still have a significant advantage over almost every other Championship club.
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If we keep Pereira, then we win the Championship, simple.
If we demand the huge fee for Pereira that we deserve £70m+) then surely we have the tools to buy 3 or 4 that are going to be stars in that division.
After Pereira the next biggest conundrum is if Johnstone stays or not and can we command £15m+?
Next biggest fagtor is Diangana, he is too good for the Championship and will be excellent asset.
The rest, I honestly feel we could discard as many as 12 permanent players and not really feel their loss to.any great extent.
I'm summary, whoever is WBA boss they still have a significant advantage over almost every other Championship club.
Not going to get into a huge debate with you fella but 70m ? . Zaha at Palace is possibly the best non top 6 attacker about and has been for a number of seasons .
He wouldn't fetch 35m , 70m for MP is miles off I'm afraid .
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"In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games."
What a squad to inherit. Literally not fit enough to compete for 90 minutes.
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Not going to get into a huge debate with you fella but 70m ? . Zaha at Palace is possibly the best non top 6 attacker about and has been for a number of seasons .
He wouldn't fetch 35m , 70m for MP is miles off I'm afraid .
Zaha v Pereira this season. Who has been more effective? You can argue Zaha plays in a better team also.
Do you watch European football? If you saw R Madrid v Chelsea and last night v Sevilla, you'd have seen a lumbering midfield with Kroos, Modric (old) and the beleaguered Hazard. You telling me he wouldn't get in that team?
You can water down Pereira's talents if you want to, but I won't. He is one of the best attacking talents in world football right now. You need to believe it.
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"In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games."
What a squad to inherit. Literally not fit enough to compete for 90 minutes.
They weren’t exactly in great shape last season either were they mate!
Look at the difference in terms of energy levels between us and Leeds United following the restart in June 2020. That said a lot to me about the professionalism of our players and the coaching staff.
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"In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games."
What a squad to inherit. Literally not fit enough to compete for 90 minutes.
Yeah, just a few days before his appointment the team had proved their literal lack of fitness by being slaughtered 1-1 away to the runaway champions
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Zaha v Pereira this season. Who has been more effective? You can argue Zaha plays in a better team also.
Do you watch European football? If you saw R Madrid v Chelsea and last night v Sevilla, you'd have seen a lumbering midfield with Kroos, Modric (old) and the beleaguered Hazard. You telling me he wouldn't get in that team?
You can water down Pereira's talents if you want to, but I won't. He is one of the best attacking talents in world football right now. You need to believe it.
Dear me , i'll leave the topic here and hope we get the dream figure you quote . I think you will be very upset.
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Yeah, just a few days before his appointment the team had proved their literal lack of fitness by being slaughtered 1-1 away by the runaway champions
Not into slagging Bilic off but those players looked shot from the first lockdown onwards , fading on 65 mins became a thing . The same thing happened at West Ham when Bilic left there eventually .
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If we keep Pereira, then we win the Championship, simple.
If we demand the huge fee for Pereira that we deserve £70m+) then surely we have the tools to buy 3 or 4 that are going to be stars in that division.
After Pereira the next biggest conundrum is if Johnstone stays or not and can we command £15m+?
Next biggest fagtor is Diangana, he is too good for the Championship and will be excellent asset.
The rest, I honestly feel we could discard as many as 12 permanent players and not really feel their loss to.any great extent.
I'm summary, whoever is WBA boss they still have a significant advantage over almost every other Championship club.
We would be amazingly lucky to get half of that for MP. Personally I predict that the vile will get a fortune for greasy jack and then will offer £15 to £20m for him, and we of course will roll over and have our tummies tickled, much to the amusement of the six fingered knuckle draggers from B6.
If BS stays, then we must keep the likes of MP and build the team around him. From that perspective, having Grady at the club is a good thing.
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Dear me , i'll leave the topic here and hope we get the dream figure you quote . I think you will be very upset.
If you decided to sell your house today and you thought it was worth £300K, you're not going to advertise it for £200K.
You didn't answer my question on why you thought Zaha was better right now? You also don't seem to be up to date with world football.
To put it into context we bought Ollie Burke for £15m, so you're going to sell Pereira for £30m?
Pereira is worth £50m less than Harry Maguire / £65m less than Paul Pogba? Really?
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We would be amazingly lucky to get half of that for MP. Personally I predict that the vile will get a fortune for greasy jack and then will offer £15 to £20m for him, and we of course will roll over and have our tummies tickled, much to the amusement of the six fingered knuckle draggers from B6.
If BS stays, then we must keep the likes of MP and build the team around him. From that perspective, having Grady at the club is a good thing. i
Squealish is a naughty lad off the field. That’s why the big clubs haven’t come in for him. I think he very well may still be at B6 next season.
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Yeah, just a few days before his appointment the team had proved their literal lack of fitness by being slaughtered 1-1 away to the runaway champions
Do you only watch a few games a season?
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If you decided to sell your house today and you thought it was worth £300K, you're not going to advertise it for £200K.
You didn't answer my question on why you thought Zaha was better right now? You also don't seem to be up to date with world football.
To put it into context we bought Ollie Burke for £15m, so you're going to sell Pereira for £30m?
Pereira is worth £50m less than Harry Maguire / £65m less than Paul Pogba? Really?
First off if i was selling my house id put a realistic price on it ( with the intention to sell ) . You are not going to get 70m for somebody whose had a decent 3 months , you simply can't compare MP to Zaha and the likes who have done it at the highest level season after season even if Zaha has had a lot of injuries this season .
At best you're getting carried away too soon talking about World football and Real Madrid , great player and all that .
When he moves ( if / most likely ) if he goes north of 50m i'll hold my hands up on here .
I expect you to do the same .
You are also not allowing for Covid , big spending on the likes of Maguire and Pogba is finished for now . The market will change hugely hence Real Madrid / Barca pushing for the European League ( dont know if you are up to date on that ) .
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If you decided to sell your house today and you thought it was worth £300K, you're not going to advertise it for £200K.
You didn't answer my question on why you thought Zaha was better right now? You also don't seem to be up to date with world football.
To put it into context we bought Ollie Burke for £15m, so you're going to sell Pereira for £30m?
Pereira is worth £50m less than Harry Maguire / £65m less than Paul Pogba? Really?
You can value your house for whatever you like, it is only worth what someone is prepared to pay, unless you are fortunate enough to have a Chinese landscape gardener lose his way and drive down your street.......
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You are totally under-estimating the massive difference between Prem and Championship. Every player in last night's starting 11 is top 6 Championship.
I know we'll lose the loanees but we will be well placed, financially, to replace them.
Allardyce did himself no favours with the Diange for Kanu nonsense substitution, but, with or without him, we will challenge next year, I have no doubt whatsoever.
Roll on August.
Am I?
We’ll see. I hope you’re right.
We won 8 of our last 24 Championship games.
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First off if i was selling my house id put a realistic price on it ( with the intention to sell ) . You are not going to get 70m for somebody whose had a decent 3 months , you simply can't compare MP to Zaha and the likes who have done it at the highest level season after season even if Zaha has had a lot of injuries this season .
At best you're getting carried away too soon talking about World football and Real Madrid , great player and all that .
When he moves ( if / most likely ) if he goes north of 50m i'll hold my hands up and send you a PM .
I expect you to do the same .
You are also not allowing for Covid , big spending on the likes of Maguire and Pogba is finished for now . The market will change hugely hence Real Madrid / Barca pushing for the European League ( dont know if you are up to date on that ) .
A decent 3 months? Is that how you evaluate Pereira's season? Look at the goals and assists, the way he ripped Chelsea apart on their own turf.
I just don't understand you at all. If Pereira was only decent this season how do you way up Livermore and HRK' contribution?
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Not into slagging Bilic off but those players looked shot from the first lockdown onwards , fading on 65 mins became a thing . The same thing happened at West Ham when Bilic left there eventually .
If we were so unfit that we faded after 65 minutes all the time, you would expect us to be conceding loads of goals after this time. Where is the evidence for this?
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A decent 3 months? Is that how you evaluate Pereira's season? Look at the goals and assists, the way he ripped Chelsea apart on their own turf.
I just don't understand you at all. If Pereira was only decent this season how do you way up Livermore and HRK' contribution?
A lot of us don't understand you fella if you're going down that route . He's really shone in the last 3 months in my view in a better balanced side , I also believe he's responded very well to Allardyce and like a few looked much fitter . He wasn't dropped by Allardyce for no reason at one point.
Why bring Livermore / HRK into it ? , not up to it clearly.
As good as MP was at Chelsea several others were electric that day too , plus it was against 10 men with no Kante ( not taking away from our performance ) .
Like I say if he goes for north of 50m you'll see me hold my hands up .
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Do you only watch a few games a season?
No idea why you are asking that question. Would you like to elaborate? What's your point exactly?
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If we were so unfit that we faded after 65 minutes all the time, you would expect us to be conceding loads of goals after this time. Where is the evidence for this?
They certainly fell to bits, couldn't get back into games or didn't look like scoring . Used to start games quite flat under Bilic too . As with Allardyce there was quite often another CB flung on to keep scores down .
100% a fitness issue there IMO .
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They certainly fell to bits, couldn't get back into games or didn't look like scoring . Used to start games quite flat under Bilic too . As with Allardyce there was quite often another CB flung on to keep scores down .
100% a fitness issue there IMO .
You have successfully managed to avoid answering my question. I'll ask it again. Where is the evidence? In other words, give me some examples. And equally, where is the evidence of any substantial improvement in this area under Allardyce?
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Our Passes per Defending Action, a measure of pressing intensity, was about 17 under Bilic. When Allardyce that increased to over 20, but then has fallen to around 14.
By no means a direct indicator, but it shows that we've pressed more intensely, which requires better fitness.
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Our Passes per Defending Action, a measure of pressing intensity, was about 17 under Bilic. When Allardyce that increased to over 20, but then has fallen to around 14.
By no means a direct indicator, but it shows that we've pressed more intensely, which requires better fitness.
So on that basis, we are now more unfit under Allardyce than under Bilic? That seems to be the case if you are right about passes per defending action, whatever that means.
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Just catching up on the thread. Don't mean to take it too far off the beaten track but following on from a theme if anyone fancies making an over the odds offer on a property in Erdington that's seen better days just let me know.
I'll spruce the place up with a poster of Matheus Pereira and an Albion calendar if it gets me out of this Seal infested hole. There's some Albion mugs going spare in the kitchen cabinets and a Chinese takeaway on the corner at the end of the road, what's not to like ;D ?
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You have successfully managed to avoid answering my question. I'll ask it again. Where is the evidence? In other words, give me some examples. And equally, where is the evidence of any substantial improvement in this area under Allardyce?
Firstly I don't debate with you with a attitude so please don't reply to me in that manner . Stats are below as Mark beat me to it . I also go on what I see , i can point you to the lockdown promotion where the majority of performances were flat , lifeless ( Hudds away a good example ) . We just had nothing in the tank even against teans with nothing to play for , as I posted earlier its I.M.O having seen whats in front of me .
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So on that basis, we are now more unfit under Allardyce than under Bilic? That seems to be the case if you are right about passes per defending action, whatever that means.
Sorry, I should explain.
PPDA is how many opposition passes we allow before making an attempt to win the ball back. Low is lots of pressing, high is sit back and keep your shape.
17 is fairly high, 20+ is very high. 14 is around the middle (Leeds are lowest with 8, then Southampton with 10)
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Just catching up on the thread. Don't mean to take it too far off the beaten track but following on from a theme if anyone fancies making an over the odds offer on a property in Erdington that's seen better days just let me know.
I'll spruce the place up with a poster of Matheus Pereira and an Albion calendar if it gets me out of this Seal infested hole. There's some Albion mugs going spare in the kitchen cabinets and a Chinese takeaway on the corner at the end of the road, what's not to like ;D ?
I will give you £20k clearly well over the top for any property in Erdington. ;D
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Firstly I don't debate with you with a attitude so please don't reply to me in that manner . Stats are below as Mark beat me to it . I also go on what I see , i can point you to the lockdown promotion where the majority of performances were flat , lifeless ( Hudds away a good example ) . We just had nothing in the tank even against teans with nothing to play for , as I posted earlier its I.M.O having seen whats in front of me .
Eh? Just because I have asked for some examples to back up what you are saying? This apparently means that I have an attitude? I'm going to leave it at that, as you are starting to get personal.
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Despite relegation, I think big Sam has done an okay job.
We came up with glaring deficiencies in the team, which were not addressed, fitness levels were not up to standard in my opinion, whilst I liked Bilic, he has to carry the can for that, but he, somewhat luckily got us promoted which was essential.
Big Sam has improved us, shown he can identify a player and our shortcomings.
He knows what is needed, he should be backed, retained and given the control he wants.
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I will give you £20k clearly well over the top for any property in Erdington. ;D
Done (yow av bin ;D )!
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A lot of us don't understand you fella if you're going down that route . He's really shone in the last 3 months in my view in a better balanced side , I also believe he's responded very well to Allardyce and like a few looked much fitter . He wasn't dropped by Allardyce for no reason at one point.
Why bring Livermore / HRK into it ? , not up to it clearly.
As good as MP was at Chelsea several others were electric that day too , plus it was against 10 men with no Kante ( not taking away from our performance ) .
Like I say if he goes for north of 50m you'll see me hold my hands up .
Well if we take £30m for Pereira we are absolute mugs.
We only have to buy an Ollie Burke or Karlan Grant type and the money is gone.
Whatever happens if there is interest from Seal Park or Custard Bowl, then the price must be £100m, lol.
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Eh? Just because I have asked for some examples to back up what you are saying? This apparently means that I have an attitude? I'm going to leave it at that, as you are starting to get personal.
No mate , I didn't appreciate the avoiding the question line . I'll always try to debate , listen and engage as I always have . You've been on here long enough to know that.
All said I've given my reasons and there is also a piece on fitness in the article I posted from the Athletic earlier .
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Well if we take £30m for Pereira we are absolute mugs.
We only have to buy an Ollie Burke or Karlan Grant type and the money is gone.
Whatever happens if there is interest from Seal Park or Custard Bowl, then the price must be £100m, lol.
Markets changing , if either of them ring put the phone down.
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Despite relegation, I think big Sam has done an okay job.
We came up with glaring deficiencies in the team, which were not addressed, fitness levels were not up to standard in my opinion, whilst I liked Bilic, he has to carry the can for that, but he, somewhat luckily got us promoted which was essential.
Big Sam has improved us, shown he can identify a player and our shortcomings.
He knows what is needed, he should be backed, retained and given the control he wants.
I agree. I did not expect him to keep us up there simply was not enough time and games left. He knows the team and what is needed to get us back up.
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Despite relegation, I think big Sam has done an okay job.
We came up with glaring deficiencies in the team, which were not addressed, fitness levels were not up to standard in my opinion, whilst I liked Bilic, he has to carry the can for that, but he, somewhat luckily got us promoted which was essential.
Big Sam has improved us, shown he can identify a player and our shortcomings.
He knows what is needed, he should be backed, retained and given the control he wants.
I work with a West Ham STH who warned me about the fitness issue , I laughed it off at the time as sour grapes :o .
He also reckons Allardyce bores the pants off players in training but then again so did Roy .
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No idea why you are asking that question. Would you like to elaborate? What's your point exactly?
You have willfully ignored the majority of games where they couldn't run. My only other viewpoint that i could up with for you not seeing the majority of them being done in by half time was that you don't watch many of our games.
I can't make it any more clearer.
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If he stays we have a few dilemmas in terms of players (IMO). We obviously need to ditch a bunch (HRK, Livermore, Gibbs (MLS), Zohore etc). The problem is we have a bunch of loan players to replace but also the players we invested so much money in are out of favour too...Grant and Diangana haven’t really had a look in and I think could be hard to shift (we won’t get what we paid). Sam doesn’t fancy them but we are stuck with them.
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"In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games."
What a squad to inherit. Literally not fit enough to compete for 90 minutes.
I don't know what 21.3 is?
Looked up fitness measurement in footballers & can't find anything that relates to those numbers.
Could you, or someone who knows, clarify for me please?
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I work with a West Ham STH who warned me about the fitness issue , I laughed it off at the time as sour grapes :o .
He also reckons Allardyce bores the pants off players in training but then again so did Roy .
I'd rather have Sam boring the pants off players than them having a laugh getting unfit under Bilic. They are paid ridiculous sums of money to be professional athletes. The cheek of them to turn round and say they dont enjoy training under him. It's irrelevant what they think. Do your job.
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I don't know what 21.3 is?
Looked up fitness measurement in footballers & can't find anything that relates to those numbers.
Could you, or someone who knows, clarify for me please?
Sorry mate, my fault. Heres more info for context
"Under Bilic, Albion’s average passes per defensive action (PPDA) figure was 17.2. This statistic records the number of passes opponents are allowed between attempts to win the ball back via tackling, intercepting, fouling or similar defensive action. A low figure indicates a team that presses aggressively, a high figure suggests a team that is happier to sit off.
In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games.
In the subsequent 11 games, with new signings bedded in and, Allardyce would insist, overall fitness improved, the PPDA figure dropped to 14.8 as Albion’s pressing became more intense."
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Sorry mate, my fault. Heres more info for context
"Under Bilic, Albion’s average passes per defensive action (PPDA) figure was 17.2. This statistic records the number of passes opponents are allowed between attempts to win the ball back via tackling, intercepting, fouling or similar defensive action. A low figure indicates a team that presses aggressively, a high figure suggests a team that is happier to sit off.
In Allardyce’s first 10 games, the figure rose to 21.3 as Albion sat deeper and became more passive. It was a source of frustration but one source has told The Athletic that Allardyce and his coaches felt sitting deep and conserving energy was the only way to prevent burnout later in games.
In the subsequent 11 games, with new signings bedded in and, Allardyce would insist, overall fitness improved, the PPDA figure dropped to 14.8 as Albion’s pressing became more intense."
Thanks.
This is more of a general comment, but....................
Wouldn't tactics have an impact on PPDA?
For example, if opponents were playing a high line, you would have to intercept more passes to push them back, a lower line would mean you move the ball about among your own team to pull opponents out of position.
Tend to think that Billic knew we were weak defensively, & pressing would expose our back line. I'm not sure that PPDA is a good metric for measuring fitness, & especially stamina.
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Thanks.
This is more of a general comment, but....................
Wouldn't tactics have an impact on PPDA?
For example, if opponents were playing a high line, you would have to intercept more passes to push them back, a lower line would mean you move the ball about among your own team to pull opponents out of position.
Tend to think that Billic knew we were weak defensively, & pressing would expose our back line. I'm not sure that PPDA is a good metric for measuring fitness, & especially stamina.
It's not a perfect measure, because you're right, it's basically a measure of pressing, which is tied to tactics. Leeds have the lowest PPDA because they press the most.
But in the absence of actual fitness data (sprints, accelerations/decelerations etc), it's a proxy that gives us an insight. You can't press a lot of you will be knackered after 20 minutes.
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As Mark said above. No fitness means no pressing which means just sit back for most the game.
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Well if we take £30m for Pereira we are absolute mugs.
Wrong thread but I completely agree with you on this Greg and I can't get my head around posters who think circa £25m is somehow a victory or realistic. I'm starting to wonder if people in the black country have been stuck in a time warp the last ten years and not noticed the shenanigans in the transfer market. Pereira is sensational and no matter if Allardyce is in charge next season or somebody else he will be absolutely key to us getting straight back up again.
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As Mark said above. No fitness means no pressing which means just sit back for most the game.
Under Bilic we played with a high line and tried to keep possession. When Allardyce first took over we tried to ring our own box and we're terrible at it and got humiliated in December and January. Then after 8/9 games of getting the team selection wrong every week Allardyce finally worked out roughly how to get the best out of our limited team but by then the gap with the teams above us was too great to make up, even with some impressive recruitment before we got into February. Allardyce was a bit unlucky that he had to rely on the dreadful Kieran Gibbs in December and January and that Bartley was also out injured during that period.
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Back to the fitness thing.
Looks as though a lot of clubs are as unfit as us, & Newcastle must be a real basket case.
see more here
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/GdlcJ/1/ (https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/GdlcJ/1/)
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Under Bilic we played with a high line and tried to keep possession. When Allardyce first took over we tried to ring our own box and we're terrible at it and got humiliated in December and January. Then after 8/9 games of getting the team selection wrong every week Allardyce finally worked out roughly how to get the best out of our limited team but by then the gap with the teams above us was too great to make up, even with some impressive recruitment before we got into February. Allardyce was a bit unlucky that he had to rely on the dreadful Kieran Gibbs in December and January and that Bartley was also out injured during that period.
A high line is useless if you're not pressing the opposition, all it does is gives space in behind. Bilic did play a high line, but we didn't press, either, which is backed up by the stats.
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Under Bilic we played with a high line and tried to keep possession. When Allardyce first took over we tried to ring our own box and we're terrible at it and got humiliated in December and January. Then after 8/9 games of getting the team selection wrong every week Allardyce finally worked out roughly how to get the best out of our limited team but by then the gap with the teams above us was too great to make up, even with some impressive recruitment before we got into February. Allardyce was a bit unlucky that he had to rely on the dreadful Kieran Gibbs in December and January and that Bartley was also out injured during that period.
I genuinely cant recall us pressing too hard. Teams walked through us out wide and through the middle.
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I genuinely cant recall us pressing too hard. Teams walked through us out wide and through the middle.
You can't recall it because we generally didn't press under Bilic.
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You can't recall it because we generally didn't press under Bilic.
Thats what i mean, it feels like Baggie82 point is that we were trying too or i've read it wrong and if so i apologise.
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You have willfully ignored the majority of games where they couldn't run. My only other viewpoint that i could up with for you not seeing the majority of them being done in by half time was that you don't watch many of our games.
I can't make it any more clearer.
You clearly have a theory about fitness, but it really doesn't seem to stand up. If we were so unfit, you would expect us to be out on our feet for the last 20 minutes of matches, and concede a lot of goals during that period. But this just wasn't the case. From the beginning of October until the time that Bilic left, our record for the last 20 minutes of matches was 3 goals conceded in 10 matches, which certainly doesn't suggest we were knackered or indeed unfit. Indeed, it's exactly the same as in Sam Allardyce's last 10 matches in charge, though Sam had the advantage of bringing in some reinforcements.
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Allardyce confirmed in the press conference last night that he will not be experimenting in the last 3 games, so expect the loanees to keep their places and limited opportunities for Grant, Diangana, Sawyers, Livermore and anyone else who will still be at the club next season but not currently getting much game time.
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You clearly have a theory about fitness, but it really doesn't seem to stand up. If we were so unfit, you would expect us to be out on our feet for the last 20 minutes of matches, and concede a lot of goals during that period. But this just wasn't the case. From the beginning of October until the time that Bilic left, our record for the last 20 minutes of matches was 3 goals conceded in 10 matches, which certainly doesn't suggest we were knackered or indeed unfit. Indeed, it's exactly the same as in Sam Allardyce's last 10 matches in charge, though Sam had the advantage of bringing in some reinforcements.
Why do you think the players were unable to compete for the 90 minutes frequently Tim? We WERE out on our feet in my opinion for the majority of matches. If you think otherwise fair enough mate but our players were done in early doors. The lack of money and quality is one thing but to not be able to run and compete for 90 minutes is unacceptable.
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What you mean is that he has made his mind up about certain players and if he stays he won't be using them anyway and he would prefer to continue to pick players who will not be here next season, even down to only using two substitutes when he could use three.
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If we keep Pereira, then we win the Championship, simple.
If we demand the huge fee for Pereira that we deserve £70m+) then surely we have the tools to buy 3 or 4 that are going to be stars in that division.
After Pereira the next biggest conundrum is if Johnstone stays or not and can we command £15m+?
Next biggest fagtor is Diangana, he is too good for the Championship and will be excellent asset.
The rest, I honestly feel we could discard as many as 12 permanent players and not really feel their loss to.any great extent.
I'm summary, whoever is WBA boss they still have a significant advantage over almost every other Championship club.
I do think know that you are in for a very disappointing summer, sorry!
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Allardyce confirmed in the press conference last night that he will not be experimenting in the last 3 games, so expect the loanees to keep their places and limited opportunities for Grant, Diangana, Sawyers, Livermore and anyone else who will still be at the club next season but not currently getting much game time.
I look forward to a time when our manager's every word isn't hovered over like a hawk seeking a mouse in the grass. Unfortunately that will be the day after the internet snaps. Never mind, we can't have everything ;D .
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Why do you think the players were unable to compete for the 90 minutes frequently Tim? We WERE out on our feet in my opinion for the majority of matches. If you think otherwise fair enough mate but our players were done in early doors. The lack of money and quality is one thing but to not be able to run and compete for 90 minutes is unacceptable.
As I said, this isn't/wasn't the case. I have just provided you with the statistics to back up what I'm saying. I know that you have a theory about the players' fitness having improved dramatically under Allardyce, but you haven't provided any evidence to back this up. Of course, I'm not suggesting that you don't have the right to your opinion, but I just wish you would elaborate on the reasons for that opinion, other than to keep saying that it's what you saw and suggesting that I mustn't have watched our matches if I think different.
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Goals conceded in the last few minutes of a match isn't a metric to measure fitness by imo.
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As I said, this isn't/wasn't the case. I have just provided you with the statistics to back up what I'm saying. I know that you have a theory about the players' fitness having improved dramatically under Allardyce, but you haven't provided any evidence to back this up. Of course, I'm not suggesting that you don't have the right to your opinion, but I just wish you would elaborate on the reasons for that opinion, other than to keep saying that it's what you saw and suggesting that I mustn't have watched our matches if I think different.
You pointed to goals conceded in the later stages of the game which on paper may suggest one thing but i saw most weeks the opposite with my own eyes, we were physically exhausted and unable to compete as 11 athletes vs 11 other athletes.
Some people on here don't get to see many games so i don't want you to think it was a personal dig but for me i struggle to see how anyone who watched them week in and out could not see how unfit they were. I think we are just at completely differing viewpoints here.
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The players were mentally weak, as was Bilic. That has certainly improved under Allardyce.
I also think the physical fitness was lacking, because the motivation had gone. We got overrun very early on in games because we were both physically, and mentally, ill prepared.
Just a hunch but I would suggest the players that are now on the pitch were deemed to have the mettle required and those that aren't didn't. In the manager's eyes of course.
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Why do you think the players were unable to compete for the 90 minutes frequently Tim? We WERE out on our feet in my opinion for the majority of matches. If you think otherwise fair enough mate but our players were done in early doors. The lack of money and quality is one thing but to not be able to run and compete for 90 minutes is unacceptable.
We've been destroyed and hammered plenty of times in the first 45 minutes of games. I'm not sure there is much in the fitness thing. The team just lacked quality. Some players clearly have a bigger engine than others. AMN for example can get around the pitch the way Livermore and Phillips can't, but that's just because he's younger and naturally fitter. It's not coaching that stops players in their late 20s and 30s from being able to get about, their legs just go; that is more obvious when you don't have as much of the ball and need to chase about a lot.
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You pointed to goals conceded in the later stages of the game which on paper may suggest one thing but i saw most weeks the opposite with my own eyes, we were physically exhausted and unable to compete as 11 athletes vs 11 other athletes.
Some people on here don't get to see many games so i don't want you to think it was a personal dig but for me i struggle to see how anyone who watched them week in and out could not see how unfit they were. I think we are just at completely differing viewpoints here.
For what it's worth Gaz, I don't think physical fitness was an issue.
The PPDA stats that commentators have based their argument on don't follow the argument. There are a number of clubs with similar figures to ours, the only outliers are Leeds at the top of the list with around 8, & Newcastle at the bottom with around 20.
Personally, I think the issue was emotional, not physical. I haven't read Steve Madely's article in the Athletic, but his headlines suggested that SA struggled to win the players over. I just think he couldn't motivate them.
The fact that AMN had to make a speech after the Palace game says loads to me.
Since SA came to the club, I've had my doubts about him as a man manager, especially in the modern era.
If he stays on, no doubt he will bring players in who suit his management style, & we'll progress, but IMO, SA & this squad are an emotional mismatch.
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What you mean is that he has made his mind up about certain players and if he stays he won't be using them anyway and he would prefer to continue to pick players who will not be here next season, even down to only using two substitutes when he could use three.
That really does take the ****. Must win game yesterday and he didn't even bother subbing Grant on for 10 minutes. Just like the earlier must win games against Palace and the teams around us. All I can think is that Allardyce is a bit of a stubborn odd-ball.
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Fair enough if you dont think they were physically unfit but it certainly looked that way to me. Indeed it may be that they were mentally broken which indeed would cause a drop in physical performance. I think Allardyce said so himself on arrival? Something along the lines of these guys are defeated in their heads before kick off or something which would stop them performing to peak physical ability but regardless of the root cause they were spent well before the 90 mins were up IMO.
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Fair enough if you dont think they were physically unfit but it certainly looked that way to me. Indeed it may be that they were mentally broken which indeed would cause a drop in physical performance. I think Allardyce said so himself on arrival? Something along the lines of these guys are defeated in their heads before kick off or something which would stop them performing to peak physical ability but regardless of the root cause they were spent well before the 90 mins were up IMO.
Everything Allardyce comes out with is a game of expectation management to place himself in the best possible spotlight. We lost our first four home games under him 0-3, 0-5, 0-4 & 0-5 - the team looked completely broken then, but that was Allardyce's immediate impact on the team and truly a new low. The players at that stage clearly didn't agree with his coaching or tactics and struggled to buy into what he asked them to do, as it was the opposite approach of Bilic - who they enjoyed playing for, even when we got found out at this level.
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Matt Phillips has been incapable of running for 90mins for 3 years under a number of managers, as back in the day was Victor Anichebe, some players are just not naturally fit enough, while others are like the Duracell bunny (Andy Johnson / Conor Gallaghers)
Conversely I think Jake Livermore can over train and end up somewhat muscle bound, surely this is where the team of fitness analysts and coached earn their wages, (or should). I would be looking at the coaches / fitness teams for answers TBH
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That really does take the p**s. Must win game yesterday and he didn't even bother subbing Grant on for 10 minutes. Just like the earlier must win games against Palace and the teams around us. All I can think is that Allardyce is a bit of a stubborn odd-ball.
I've come to the conclusion that to Sam there's no such thing a "must win", he only goes up to "must not lose".
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Everything Allardyce comes out with is a game of expectation management to place himself in the best possible spotlight. We lost our first four home games under him 0-3, 0-5, 0-4 & 0-5 - the team looked completely broken then, but that was Allardyce's immediate impact on the team and truly a new low. The players at that stage clearly didn't agree with his coaching or tactics and struggled to buy into what he asked them to do, as it was the opposite approach of Bilic - who they enjoyed playing for, even when we got found out at this level.
In the first two games of that run Livermore stupidly got sent off before the half hour in the first and Sawyers and Johnstone combined for that comical own goal in the first ten minutes of the second. Our spineless players folded in both games following these setbacks. Nothing to do with the set up. (Compare this to going down to 10 men at Burnley or conceding the early goal at Villa Park). It took the signings to pick us back up. What an insipid bunch he inherited.
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I look forward to a time when our manager's every word isn't hovered over like a hawk seeking a mouse in the grass. Unfortunately that will be the day after the internet snaps. Never mind, we can't have everything ;D .
I thought it was an interesting admission. Manages our expectations of what we will see in the final three games.
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Begins talks on Wednesday to see if can reach agreement to stay. Says board keen but Sam wants reassurances they mean business about going up first time.
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/11/sam-allardyce-set-to-discuss-future-with-west-brom-board/
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Everything Allardyce comes out with is a game of expectation management to place himself in the best possible spotlight. We lost our first four home games under him 0-3, 0-5, 0-4 & 0-5 - the team looked completely broken then, but that was Allardyce's immediate impact on the team and truly a new low. The players at that stage clearly didn't agree with his coaching or tactics and struggled to buy into what he asked them to do, as it was the opposite approach of Bilic - who they enjoyed playing for, even when we got found out at this level.
They enjoyed playing for Bilic because they didn't have to do anything! Look at how unfit they where Charlie Austin perfect example how he looks now to how he did here. They didn't buy into Alladyce because they had to put some work in to get fit.
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Everything Allardyce comes out with is a game of expectation management to place himself in the best possible spotlight. We lost our first four home games under him 0-3, 0-5, 0-4 & 0-5 - the team looked completely broken then, but that was Allardyce's immediate impact on the team and truly a new low. The players at that stage clearly didn't agree with his coaching or tactics and struggled to buy into what he asked them to do, as it was the opposite approach of Bilic - who they enjoyed playing for, even when we got found out at this level.
How on earth have you concluded that they enjoyed losing for Bilic but didn’t for Allardyce? Seems like speculation to me.
They may well have been sulking a little after Bilic left but I would suspect they’ve enjoyed the last 10 games far more than the first 10.
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Lads you know the rules about replacement managers while we have an incumbent.
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I don’t understand this particular rule but I do abide by it.
However if a manager is knowingly out of contract and will not comment on his own future I’d say this is different to a manager being under pressure because of results or just disliked.
It would seem part of a reasonable discussion to touch on alternatives in this instance. Just my two pence
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If it is announced he's leaving, then of course we'd allow it. Otherwise, site rules.
Minor point, Allardyce isn't out of contract, he has 12 months left on his deal
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If it is announced he's leaving, then of course we'd allow it. Otherwise, site rules.
Minor point, Allardyce isn't out of contract, he has 12 months left on his deal
There is a break clause in it though Mark, if we got relegated widely reported mind? So no wonder really fans want to discuss it?
I hope he stays and everyone happy and the pigs can start flying! :D
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Begins talks on Wednesday to see if can reach agreement to stay. Says board keen but Sam wants reassurances they mean business about going up first time.
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/05/11/sam-allardyce-set-to-discuss-future-with-west-brom-board/
Translates into, "i will stay on my terms only", i dread to think what those terms may be.
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Translates into, "i will stay on my terms only", i dread to think what those terms may be.
I think he wants to know what the budget is going to be basically. Who is being sold who isnt. Which is fair enough
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I think he wants to know what the budget is going to be basically. Who is being sold who isnt. Which is fair enough
Imagine he wants assurances the board are going to back him financially.
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Translates into, "i will stay on my terms only", i dread to think what those terms may be.
I don’t. His terms are likely to get us promoted..
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Imagine he wants assurances the board are going to back him financially.
How this club is run is mental really. I'm a lifelong supporter and i'd run a mile if i had to work under Lai and co.
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I think he wants to know what the budget is going to be basically. Who is being sold who isnt. Which is fair enough
sorry, but no, he will not be solely interested in how big, but he will be as interested in making sure he controls the purse strings, identifies targets (agents he "knows") which leaves our DoF's role as ??????
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Translates into, "i will stay on my terms only", i dread to think what those terms may be.
Bit of welding here & there, 4 reconditioned tyres, get it through the mot, then sell it.
An exciting season lies ahead.
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Bit of welding here & there, 4 reconditioned tyres, get it through the mot, then sell it.
An exciting season lies ahead.
sad but true, fortunately the clutch, gearbox and chassis are sound enough for the job in hand
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sorry, but no, he will not be solely interested in how big, but he will be as interested in making sure he controls the purse strings, identifies targets (agents he "knows") which leaves our DoF's role as ??????
I'd much rather have Sam in charge than Dowling to be fair Albionic
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sorry, but no, he will not be solely interested in how big, but he will be as interested in making sure he controls the purse strings, identifies targets (agents he "knows") which leaves our DoF's role as ??????
Sounds good to me
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I'd much rather have Sam in charge than Dowling to be fair Albionic
If you take the personalities out of it, having a "Manager" overseeing the whole football operation is risky for the overall health of a football club.
The DoF model is far less risky.
Man U still haven't fully recovered from losing Alex Ferguson.
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I'd much rather have Sam in charge than Dowling to be fair Albionic
cannot argue with the Dowling critics, Hegazi / Kipre / 3 Left wingers / Zohore all deals with his fingerprints all over them which defy logic on the plus side Periera
(I don't subscribe to the Bilic v Allardyce signings argument, maybe identified by the manager but the DoF is accountable for the signing in my view)
I will say that i think Grant and Diangana will come good under a different manager to Allardyce
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If you take the personalities out of it, having a "Manager" overseeing the whole football operation is risky for the overall health of a football club.
The DoF model is far less risky.
Man U still haven't fully recovered from losing Alex Ferguson.
I understand that and generally agree but i do not trust/rate Dowling whatsoever.
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cannot argue with the Dowling critics, Hegazi / Kipre / 3 Left wingers / Zohore all deals with his fingerprints all over them which defy logic on the plus side Periera
(I don't subscribe to the Bilic v Allardyce signings argument, maybe identified by the manager but the DoF is accountable for the signing in my view)
I will say that i think Grant and Diangana will come good under a different manager to Allardyce
I thikn they will do better under whoever in the EFL. We should be spending the majority of matches in control of the ball/possession. Gradys not cut out for defending at all
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cannot argue with the Dowling critics, Hegazi / Kipre / 3 Left wingers / Zohore all deals with his fingerprints all over them which defy logic on the plus side Periera
(I don't subscribe to the Bilic v Allardyce signings argument, maybe identified by the manager but the DoF is accountable for the signing in my view)
I will say that i think Grant and Diangana will come good under a different manager to Allardyce
Agree with this, especially the bit in bold.
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I don’t. His terms are likely to get us promoted..
I’d suggest if Allardyce is in charge our best hope will be via the play offs as we won’t win enough games to secure automatic promotion.
Whilst Sheffield United have been very poor this season it’s unlikely they will make the wholesale changes Fulham and ourselves will make.
Fulham will also spend far money in their search for a quick return.
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Personally I don’t care how we go up as long as we do.
Allardyce is our best bet at achieving that when you consider the other options.
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How on earth have you concluded that they enjoyed losing for Bilic but didn’t for Allardyce? Seems like speculation to me.
They may well have been sulking a little after Bilic left but I would suspect they’ve enjoyed the last 10 games far more than the first 10.
Allardyce’s first four home games we managed to lose 17-0 and in between got knocked out of the fa cup at Blackpool. The prior four home games finished 6-2 (includes the Palace game which similar to villa game in that we got a red card early and then hammered) but it included four points being picked up. We couldn’t even score a goal under Big Sam’s new tactics. That run of humiliating results at home is astonishing and it was obvious the players hated every minute of what had gone on and what they were being asked to do.
No doubt we improved February onwards after the new signings came in but it was too late.
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Small piece on Sam just gone online by the Mirror saying as expected wants to know who's going and who isn't. Cant discuss it here of course but there's also a comment on who they are likely to turn too if they break from Sam if you are interested
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Sam won't be here. I would be staggered if we agree on his demands on Wednesday.
He will be asking for phenomenal wages and bonuses, plus assurances.
We have to make it worth his while and I just cannot see it as we will be in penny pinching mode.
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Sam won't be here. I would be staggered if we agree on his demands on Wednesday.
He will be asking for phenomenal wages and bonuses, plus assurances.
We have to make it worth his while and I just cannot see it as we will be in penny pinching mode.
I kinda of agree with that, we'll know exactly how serious the board are if they pull the plug on Sam and go for a cheap option.
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Personally I don’t care how we go up as long as we do.
Allardyce is our best bet at achieving that when you consider the other options.
Not sure how you can say that when you don’t know what the other options are
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I kinda of agree with that, we'll know exactly how serious the board are if they pull the plug on Sam and go for a cheap option.
who constitutes a cheap option?
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who constitutes a cheap option?
In this scenario anyone who isn't Allardyce. The point is if Allardyce walks it's because we have not matched his ambition to get promoted in year one.
That should be extremely worrying to all of us if it transpires.
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I don’t fully see it as a case that Allardyce going = the club have no ambition to get promoted.
Allardyce and Albion will have the same aim of an immediate return to the premier league, but while the board need to also factor in planning for the 2022/23 season (in the event of us falling short), Allardyce will know that failure to get up next season probably means he leaves, so the decisions he may favour could well be very short termist.
Palace for instance are probably going to release a handful of players who have been the bedrock of their side in recent years - players there under Allardyce’s reign. Allardyce might look at Townsend, McCarthey, Schlupp, Van Aanholt, Cahill and Kelly and say they have it in them to still be very effective at a top championship side next year. They are all getting towards the twilight of their careers and will want significant wages, but Allardyce will ultimately only really care about next season - **** or bust.
The club on the other hand might need to consider if it is right to lay all of their eggs in one basket and gamble on next season at the detriment of having a decent chance in the second season, should it be needed. They might want to invest in younger players again who will still play a part the year after.
It’s hard to predict what Allardyce will want, but there is an entirely possible scenario that the money will be there for players to the level Allardyce would want, but maybe not the level of control.
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In this scenario anyone who isn't Allardyce. The point is if Allardyce walks it's because we have not matched his ambition to get promoted in year one.
That should be extremely worrying to all of us if it transpires.
Or that he's asking for more money than we think is reasonable?
Or that he asks for a huge promotion bonus.
Or that he wants certain players out of the club regardless of price.
Or that he wants to have more say over transfers and agents than we're willing to relinquish.
Or that he doesn't feel like doing a season in the Championship.
I doubt any of those are true but there's loads of reasons why he might not stay - not just the club taking a cheap option.
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Personally I don’t care how we go up as long as we do.
Allardyce is our best bet at achieving that when you consider the other options.
What are the other options?
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Or that he's asking for more money than we think is reasonable?
Or that he asks for a huge promotion bonus.
Or that he wants certain players out of the club regardless of price.
Or that he wants to have more say over transfers and agents than we're willing to relinquish.
Or that he doesn't feel like doing a season in the Championship.
I doubt any of those are true but there's loads of reasons why he might not stay - not just the club taking a cheap option.
No disrespect here, but how long have you been a fan?
We always take the cheap option.
The board even put a bet on at the bookies before the 68 cup final so that if we won, the bet would cover the win bonus
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Or that he's asking for more money than we think is reasonable?
Or that he asks for a huge promotion bonus.
Or that he wants certain players out of the club regardless of price.
Or that he wants to have more say over transfers and agents than we're willing to relinquish.
Or that he doesn't feel like doing a season in the Championship.
I doubt any of those are true but there's loads of reasons why he might not stay - not just the club taking a cheap option.
These will be an issue. Trust me, we will not meet his demands. We have paid him a fortune this year.
The other option you have missed out- is a new owner who doesn't want him...
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In this scenario anyone who isn't Allardyce. The point is if Allardyce walks it's because we have not matched his ambition to get promoted in year one.
That should be extremely worrying to all of us if it transpires.
Or maybe they won't think he's worth what he is demanding, because you know, he hasn't delivered on what he said he would.
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These will be an issue. Trust me, we will not meet his demands. We have paid him a fortune this year.
The other option you have missed out- is a new owner who doesn't want him...
Or alternatively - a new owner who insisted on him.
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I'd rather we look to bring someone in who can work on a tight budget, scout the hidden gems and bring through the youngsters. I can't see Allardyce doing any of these. He's always spent wherever he's been and will want a large budget to stay.
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These will be an issue. Trust me, we will not meet his demands. We have paid him a fortune this year.
The other option you have missed out- is a new owner who doesn't want him...
wasn’t the report that part of the reason Sam was brought here was because a potential owner wanted him here?
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I'd rather we look to bring someone in who can work on a tight budget, scout the hidden gems and bring through the youngsters.
Exactly. How hard can it be?
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At his age, he might be driven by short term thinking. So he gets a big fat salary and bonus and complete control over player spending (dangerous) buys old-pro players with max two years in them. If he gets us promoted, he leaves because he knows he's exhausted our money.
Leaving us in the same position as we entered the 20-21 season or worse.
If he doesn't get the blank cheque he demands, then he walks away muttering about lack of ambition. In the football world ambition = (wild) spending of other people's money
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Or maybe they won't think he's worth what he is demanding, because you know, he hasn't delivered on what he said he would.
what did he say he would do?
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At his age, he might be driven by short term thinking. So he gets a big fat salary and bonus and complete control over player spending (dangerous) buys old-pro players with max two years in them. If he gets us promoted, he leaves because he knows he's exhausted our money.
Leaving us in the same position as we entered the 20-21 season or worse.
If he doesn't get the blank cheque he demands, then he walks away muttering about lack of ambition. In the football world ambition = (wild) spending of other people's money
Or he might not.
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I've been totally knackered by the last few years roller coaster and I can't get my head round whether I want him to stay as our best short term bounceback option, or whether I'd rather do a Norwich and find a younger man with the staying power for a five year plan to rebuild with the hidden gems referred to above. Maybe its the Covid and the issue that shall not be named as well, but I am really unable to work out what I think is best here.
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Has he not already signed a contract for 18 months with a break if we don't go up?
I know it is football but really he has failed ( I well understand the reasons why)
So really is it his £££ or the control of the team more the issue?
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Has he not already signed a contract for 18 months with a break if we don't go up?
I know it is football but really he has failed ( I well understand the reasons why)
So really is it his £££ or the control of the team more the issue?
It's a break at the end of this season if we didn't stay up. But yes, he's contracted for another 12 months.
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It's a break at the end of this season if we didn't stay up. But yes, he's contracted for another 12 months.
Thanks Mark.
I just thought it may be the player issue? As to what he will have to work with? More than anything else.
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I've been totally knackered by the last few years roller coaster and I can't get my head round whether I want him to stay as our best short term bounceback option, or whether I'd rather do a Norwich and find a younger man with the staying power for a five year plan to rebuild with the hidden gems referred to above. Maybe its the Covid and the issue that shall not be named as well, but I am really unable to work out what I think is best here.
I'd love us to get a good, ambitious manager for a 5 year project but the fact is we haven't had a manager at the helm for that long since Vic Buckingham and he left 60 years ago.
I'd like Sam to have a shot at getting us back up and a full season at keeping us up. If it upsets a few people him being here then so be it, he is big enough and fat enough to take it.
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I'd love us to get a good, ambitious manager for a 5 year project but the fact is we haven't had a manager at the helm for that long since Vic Buckingham and he left 60 years ago.
I'd like fat Sam to have a shot at getting us back up and a full season at keeping us up. If it upsets a few people him being here then so be it, he is big enough and fat enough to take it.
As long as we accept that there is a cost to managers as well - something that always seems to be overlooked in these discussions. By all chatter (and I fully admit to not knowing figures) Allardyce has been paid a very big sum to be here, and it is highly likely that he will ask for a very big sum to stay on. In addition he will almost certainly ask for a big sum of money for transfers and wages to match HIS objectives - because his career track record is one of buying ready-made players who are at the back end of their careers, rather than coaching and developing talent that will become future assets for the club.
It is a post-pandemic world where we are going to have a big budget cut due to relegation, with no certainty of what gate receipts are going to look like. This means that Allardyce as a package may simply not be affordable in either the short term (cashflow) or the long term (impact) - and this has nothing to do with the dreaded 'ambition' word.
I often describe Allardyce as the poor man's Mourinho - lot's of track record in terms of what they can do (JM - win a trophy or two, SA - survive), but both cost a fortune, both have a very clear shelf life, and both tend to leave clubs in a fairly messy situation.
We could all make a list of players we would love to sign, but can't because the budget isn't there. It is exactly the same with managers, and we cannot be held ransom to the demands of one person. To me that is simple maths - not ambition.
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He's already contracted. The talks are about what the club is planning regards budgets for signings and player sales in the summer. Nowt to do with Sam's remuneration imo.
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He's already contracted. The talks are about what the club is planning regards budgets for signings and player sales in the summer. Nowt to do with Sam's remuneration imo.
I reckon that is a pretty naive statement - the bloke will be looking after himself in any discussions, both for his personal compensation and the resources he will be given. As I say, it is an overall package, and it may be one that is beyond our means, especially as it may well leave us without assets at the end.
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I reckon that is a pretty naive statement - the bloke will be looking after himself in any discussions, both for his personal compensation and the resources he will be given. As I say, it is an overall package, and it may be one that is beyond our means, especially as it may well leave us without assets at the end.
He's signed a contract to the end of next season. That's not naivety it's a fact.
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He's already contracted. The talks are about what the club is planning regards budgets for signings and player sales in the summer. Nowt to do with Sam's remuneration imo.
Presumably the break clause was wanted on our end as well as his so that we're not tied in to paying him an incredibly high wage for a championship manager. Surely he will have to take a wage hit along with the players if he stays on
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What are the other options?
Well take a look at some of those gaffers currently out of work as that’s the market we’re in.
It will be either Allardyce or another young, upcoming gamble. If the gamble works then we just ended up crying out for Allardyce in 18 months time.
Rinse and repeat.
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He's already contracted. The talks are about what the club is planning regards budgets for signings and player sales in the summer. Nowt to do with Sam's remuneration imo.
That's what I meant in my post Jacko.
I would have thought that would have been at least looked at when he joined?
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Well take a look at some of those gaffers currently out of work as that’s the market we’re in.
It will be either Allardyce or another young, upcoming gamble. If the gamble works then we just ended up crying out for Allardyce in 18 months time.
Rinse and repeat.
not allowed to talk of it because rules, but i know who i'd try for if Sam does leave as is available. Wanted him back in the Pulis days but maybe out of reach now.
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Presumably the break clause was wanted on our end as well as his so that we're not tied in to paying him an incredibly high wage for a championship manager. Surely he will have to take a wage hit along with the players if he stays on
The obvious thing is a lowish wage and a fat bonus if the fat man gets us straight back up
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Well take a look at some of those gaffers currently out of work as that’s the market we’re in.
It will be either Allardyce or another young, upcoming gamble. If the gamble works then we just ended up crying out for Allardyce in 18 months time.
Rinse and repeat.
Not sure somebody like Lampard is a gamble
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He's signed a contract to the end of next season. That's not naivety it's a fact.
The fact that there is a break clause that can be exercised by either party means that it is effectively back to square one in terms of negotiations. If Allardyce doesn't like the terms on the table he will walk. I don't believe that when he took the job he would have actually believed we would be down in the Chumps next season so however any relegation flex-down terms were laid out then, they will certainly be back on the table now.
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Thread to discuss potential new managers: http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=25852.0
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Thread to discuss potential new managers: http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=25852.0
Bloody hell Liam, yowm tryin to mek Allardyce look good with that list ay ya ?
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who constitutes a cheap option?
John Inman 😀
My gut feeling is that Sam wants out and will therefore ask for a very large amount of money so then if we say no...it’s our fault, if we say yes he really could fail .
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Bloody hell Liam, yowm tryin to mek Allardyce look good with that list ay ya ?
At least I refrained from adding Pardew and Pulis. Would have made it a foregone conclusion then :D
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John Inman 😀
My gut feeling is that Sam wants out and will therefore ask for a very large amount of money so then if we say no...it’s our fault, if we say yes he really could fail .
He will be asking for a huge amount of money. I would be shocked if we agree.
I fully expect him to go.
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John Inman 😀
My gut feeling is that Sam wants out and will therefore ask for a very large amount of money so then if we say no...it’s our fault, if we say yes he really could fail .
If that happens quickly, that's fine, we can move on quickly too, just don't want this dragging out now
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He will be asking for a huge amount of money. I would be shocked if we agree.
I fully expect him to go.
He will indeed. Of that we can be sure. He will be gone I reckon......
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He will indeed. Oef that we can be sure. He will be gone I reckon......
Only thing that might sway that is Dowling regarding staying , he knows Allardyce is probably the safest option right now .
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When do we think we find out if he is staying? We can't wait forever if he has no plans to stay I'd just call it a day now and start planning for next season.
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When do we think we find out if he is staying? We can't wait forever if he has no plans to stay I'd just call it a day now and start planning for next season.
First round of discussions set for tonight i believe.
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Can I just politely remind posters that his name is Sam Allardyce. Posts using abusive terms regarding his weight will be removed in future.
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I hope he stays.
I was overjoyed with his appointment - it was probably the most ambition our pathetic owners have shown since taking control the club and dismayed but not surprised when we have him a sack of pennies to try and keep us up.
The players he has brought in are easily good enough to slot into our side.
Big question for all of the Sam doubters: If he was there at the start of the season with the current squad and starting eleven do you think we'd startup? Answer: yes.
I hope he stays. He knows what he wants.
The cheap alternatives don't hear thinking about.
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I hope he stays.
I was overjoyed with his appointment - it was probably the most ambition our pathetic owners have shown since taking control the club and dismayed but not surprised when we have him a sack of pennies to try and keep us up.
The players he has brought in are easily good enough to slot into our side.
Big question for all of the Sam doubters: If he was there at the start of the season with the current squad and starting eleven do you think we'd startup? Answer: yes.
I hope he stays. He knows what he wants.
The cheap alternatives don't hear thinking about.
The players that he brought in are all on loan - that's the key point as they all need to be replaced.
I am convinced that we'd have been 10-12 points better off if Sam had been here with this squad all season.
For him to stay, with his age and health history, he has to be totally committed and adequately backed. If that's the case then I'd be very happy for him to stay. I'm not convinced that he will commit though.
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Strange there’s been no murmurings from the meetings supposedly taking place yesterday, in this day an age I’d suggest no news is good news if you want Sam to stay.
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Strange there’s been no murmurings from the meetings supposedly taking place yesterday, in this day an age I’d suggest no news is good news if you want Sam to stay.
I'm not expecting news any time soon, these things always tend to drag on for weeks and weeks. Plenty of time as well, still got the league campaign to finish.
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I think both parties would want to keep things under wraps as much as possible because there are another 3 games to see out the campaign and I suspect Allardyce will be in charge for those games regardless of how things pan out behind the scenes.
Obviously he will be asked at the every press conference between now and when the decision is formally announced his answers may or may not be telling but I don't think we will get to the end of the season without a definitive answer one way or another
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Surely, if they have agreed his wages and the transfer kitty, why delay?
tell the news and get everyone settled?
i can understand keeping it quiet if he is leaving....
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Whilst there’s still 18th place (and more money) to play for, I’d expect them to keep things quiet if he’s leaving.
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Surely, if they have agreed his wages and the transfer kitty, why delay?
tell the news and get everyone settled?
i can understand keeping it quiet if he is leaving....
There is a question that regardless of everything else being in place around whether Allardyce wants to do it and there has been a suggestion that he does have health concerns and is talking to his family about that issue. That might not be as easily resolved or in the overall scheme of things as important as whether or not he has funds for a new centre forward.
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I want SA to stay but i'm a bit skeptical about the health concerns and whether that is the truth for his deliberation.
I'm not sure how another relegation battle was likely to be less stressful than a championship promotion push and there didnt seem to be any suggestion he would have considered his position had we stayed up.
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There is a question that regardless of everything else being in place around whether Allardyce wants to do it and there has been a suggestion that he does have health concerns and is talking to his family about that issue. That might not be as easily resolved or in the overall scheme of things as important as whether or not he has funds for a new centre forward.
That voodoo doll you've been modelling from candle wax and his nasal clippings may have a bearing too Stan'...... ;D .
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I want SA to stay but i'm a bit skeptical about the health concerns and whether that is the truth for his deliberation.
I'm not sure how another relegation battle was likely to be less stressful than a championship promotion push and there didnt seem to be any suggestion he would have considered his position had we stayed up.
I suspect the issue would have been the same a lot of his public pronouncements concerning his future have been for consumption in the dressing room where he did not want to be seen as a dead duck manager.
Equally he might regard Premier League football as worth the stress and then the question is does he want to do one more season and bow out or commit (in his mind if not contractually) to two a promotion and one last hurrah in the Premier League?
That voodoo doll you've been modelling from candle wax and his nasal clippings may have a bearing too Stan'...... ;D .
No I'm rubbish at voodoo as Pulis is still going strong despite my best work with the voodoo doll for over 2 years.
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I suspect the issue would have been the same a lot of his public pronouncements concerning his future have been for consumption in the dressing room where he did not want to be seen as a dead duck manager.
Equally he might regard Premier League football as worth the stress and then the question is does he want to do one more season and bow out or commit (in his mind if not contractually) to two a promotion and one last hurrah in the Premier League?
No I'm rubbish at voodoo as Pulis is still going strong despite my best work with the voodoo doll for over 2 years.
I tried it with Grealish but, every time I stuck the pin in, he went down and got a free kick! >:( ;)
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I suspect the issue would have been the same a lot of his public pronouncements concerning his future have been for consumption in the dressing room where he did not want to be seen as a dead duck manager.
Equally he might regard Premier League football as worth the stress and then the question is does he want to do one more season and bow out or commit (in his mind if not contractually) to two a promotion and one last hurrah in the Premier League?
No I'm rubbish at voodoo as Pulis is still going strong despite my best work with the voodoo doll for over 2 years.
I hadn’t considered your first point actually and you could be right actually. He certainly knows how to play those types of games and Id agree the players did probably need to believe he was here to stay.
It’s that ability to play those games that make me cynical though.
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Not sounding good.
"@SteveMadeley78
In his pre-match press conference, Sam Allardyce says there will be a decision about his future before the final game of the season at Leeds. He is clearly very down. #WBA"
Edit - Chapman and Masi say nothing about him seeming down to balance it out
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Missed out on his 7 figure bonus, I'd be down too.
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Not sounding good.
"@SteveMadeley78
In his pre-match press conference, Sam Allardyce says there will be a decision about his future before the final game of the season at Leeds. He is clearly very down. #WBA"
Edit - Chapman and Masi say nothing about him seeming down to balance it out
I’m puzzled to what exactly Steve Madeley is trying to hint at in his tweet?
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Not sure whether he's implying he's down about relegation or his managerial future.
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Not sure whether he's implying he's down about relegation or his managerial future.
If it’s about his future at the club and him not staying, don’t leave the announcement until the very last game.
That bothers me a bit.
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If it’s about his future at the club and him not staying, don’t leave the announcement until the very last game.
That bothers me a bit.
Its the relegation , I've seen Madeley write it before.
More talks planned so make of that what you will.
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If a manager came out in a clown car, laughing and dancing while making balloon animals after relegation I'd be concerned...
And the award for stating the obvious goes to the Athletic's Steve Madeley....
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.......And the award for stating the obvious goes to the Athletic's Steve Madeley....
Seriously!?! Are you for real? Do you seriously mean to tell me that I've missed out again with 'Jack Grealish is a XXXX' ? Gutted......
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He took the trouble to go and watch the U18 tonight.
Would he bother doing that if he wanted away?
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Seriously!?! Are you for real? Do you seriously mean to tell me that I've missed out again with 'Jack Grealish is a XXXX' ? Gutted......
I love this forum. :D
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He took the trouble to go and watch the U18 tonight.
Would he bother doing that if he wanted away?
I think he wants to stay. I hope he manages to get rid of Dowling.
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I don't mind Allardyce being our manager but something about seeing Luke Dowling and Allardyce watching the under 18s, one with sovereign rings on pinkies and the other with shirt unbuttoned with gold chain bouncing around definitely makes something inside me die.
We're just not very 2021 are we?
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I just wish Sam would shut his gob and stop spouting pooh. And yes, we have improved, but 19 points from 21 games does not constitute him staying.
As for Dowling, I lost confidence in him after watching his post appointment interview.
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I think he wants to stay. I hope he manages to get rid of Dowling.
Not a fan of Allardyce, but if he manages that he'll have my support
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Might consider accepting Allardyce/Dowling combo when they prove they can get MP and Yokuslu to stay for at least two more seasons, get at least £25m for SJ, and any fees at all for Livermore and HRK. If Diagne goes then show they can produce a like for like or better replacement, and then build a team with whatever money we have from parachute payments and odds and sods to get promotion and give it a decent go the following season in the prem.
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Might consider accepting Allardyce/Dowling combo when they prove they can get MP and Yokuslu to stay for at least two more seasons, get at least £25m for SJ, and any fees at all for Livermore and HRK. If Diagne goes then show they can produce a like for like or better replacement, and then build a team with whatever money we have from parachute payments and odds and sods to get promotion and give it a decent go the following season in the prem.
You'll never accept them then haha
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Not a fan of Allardyce, but if he manages that he'll have my support
Absolutely.
Dowling should go regardless.
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I think he wants to stay. I hope he manages to get rid of Dowling.
Sam thinks very highly of Dowling. Maybe they're a good mix?
I reckon Sam is staying, why else would he be saying we won't be able to hang on to Pereira and that we can't afford Diagne and Yokuslu?
T
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Of course he'll want to stay - he knows he can talk the board into a nice big juicy bonus to get us promoted and we'll clearly be one of the favourites thanks to the parachute payments. He'll also factor in the likelyhood of getting another job as good as this one.
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Of course he'll want to stay - he knows he can talk the board into a nice big juicy bonus to get us promoted
That is absolutely fine by me.
Furthermore, If he takes us up then he’ll be best placed to keep us up.
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That is absolutely fine by me.
Furthermore, If he takes us up then he’ll be best placed to keep us up.
Exactly, if he does then keep us up stick a survival bonus in as well.
No arguments there for me.
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Let's face it, whoever is in charge will be offered a big bonus on promotion and on survival, just as the players wages are linked the same way. Standard stuff.
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You'll never accept them then haha
Sussed! And I thought I had kept it secret ;) :D
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Just seen today's line up. Is Sam for real or taking the ****?
How is HRK anywhere near the squad, let alone starting.
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Just seen today's line up. Is Sam for real or taking the ****?
How is HRK anywhere near the squad, let alone starting.
Is it a message to the board ?
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That is exactly what it is.
It may also indicate who has made approaches to stay next season aswell.
However I would rather have seen Grant starting especially as you would imagine he will be a decent part of next seasons squad.
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I don’t think it’s a message to the board. He can tell them he wants a striker next season, there’s no need to use this game as a statement.
It isn’t 5 days before a window closes and he’s got Grant, Diange and Robinson on the bench who could have played, two of which will be with us next season and will be relitively strong options at that level.
I think it’s tactical.
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I don’t think it’s a message to the board. He can tell them he wants a striker next season, there’s no need to use this game as a statement.
It isn’t 5 days before a window closes and he’s got Grant, Diange and Robinson on the bench who could have played, two of which will be with us next season and will be relitively strong options at that level.
I think it’s tactical.
I agree. I don’t think Allardyce does amateurish stuff like that. It would be unnecessary.
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I agree. I don’t think Allardyce does amateurish stuff like that. It would be unnecessary.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I absolutely think Sam’s capable of doing it (doing something to send a message). There is just no reason to do it today.
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Oh don’t get me wrong, I absolutely think Sam’s capable of doing it (doing something to send a message). There is just no reason to do it today.
That’s sad.
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He's scored anyway, so actually a masterstroke... let's hope it doesn't lead to a new deal.
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He's scored anyway, so actually a masterstroke... let's hope it doesn't lead to a new deal.
It's inevitable he gets a new deal. As someone, I think Liam, said its an easy fix to fill a place in the squad, whether we agree with it or not.
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Diangana, HRK, Grant and Livermore all given game time at the expense of Diagne, AMN and to a degree Yokuslu.
I may be reading too much into it, but for those who want Allardyce to stay, that's the sort of decision a manager makes with an eye on next season rather than going out with a bang.
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Many on here have been calling for Diangana and Grant to get game time. They both look off the pace as you'd expect.
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Diangana, HRK, Grant and Livermore all given game time at the expense of Diagne, AMN and to a degree Yokuslu.
I may be reading too much into it, but for those who want Allardyce to stay, that's the sort of decision a manager makes with an eye on next season rather than going out with a bang.
This point wasn’t lost on me either.
Clear that Sam was utilising this second half as a chance to look at a couple of these fringe players.
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If ANY manager played silly buggers with team selection to prove a point to the board then that manager should be out on their ear the following day. I am Allardyce's biggest critic but even I would credit him the ability to have an adult dialogue with the club about the future without performative team selection.
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i hope he stays. Simples!
Think he will get something out of Grady and Grant next year. And he has turned Phillips into a footballer again when I was sure he was done. Improvement all round the team.
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Another competitive performance, we just don't have the quality and we have known since Jan that our bench is not good enough. Can't fault Allardyce today and seems to have the players still giving everything even though we are down.
I always enjoy it when a manager picks the team and there is a meltdown online and then the player scores...You knew HRK would score today. Not sure what it says about Grant though.
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The second coming Matt Phillips is a very pleasant result of BS joining. I have always liked him and hoped he would turn it around.
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Not a fan of big Sam but that interview after the game was first class the amount of times in the premier past officials cheating us and previous managers being diplomatic it’s about time 1 had stood up and tell it like it is
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Was discussing VAR with a non-Albion mate and he agreed with Sam. One of the things he said as well is that he thought dodgy decisions favouring the top 6 could partly be explained down to fans etc, but this season has rules that out yet the top teams seem to get the rub of all the decisions.
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Is the interview available online? Can’t find it so far.
I turned the coverage off as I could not be bothered listening to Souness and Redknapp creaming themselves.
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Is the interview available online? Can’t find it so far.
I turned the coverage off as I could not be bothered listening to Souness and Redknapp creaming themselves.
I just watched it on youtube
https://youtu.be/NOP5yFsMSkY
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Not a fan of big Sam but that interview after the game was first class the amount of times in the premier past officials cheating us and previous managers being diplomatic it’s about time 1 had stood up and tell it like it is
sky wetting themselves over Liverpool, thought I was going to puke. Interviewer was put in place by Sam with question on keeper's goal as usual Sky totally disrespect our club.
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Gut instincts now.....going or staying ?
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Staying based on his team selection and subs
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Gut instincts now.....going or staying ?
Staying , think though he was making a point with some of that side though . Wouldn't take a lot for him to go I suspect .
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Staying. He won't get a better offer and we're well suited to challenge to come back up and get a nice promotion bonus.
And this is Albion, we like the easy way out.
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Staying- with a promise of cash to rebuild. I think Allardyce has a very persuasive tongue. He really will need the gift of the gab to get the owners to pass with their money
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I think he'd like to stay, but needs clarification about the long term ownership of the club.
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Gut instincts now.....going or staying ?
Too close for me to call. I want to believe he’s staying but I’m unsure as to why the decision won’t be announced until the last game of the season.
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I'm not convinced he will stay on as Head Coach .He may take on an advisory role with the club appointing a younger head coach and i wonder if that is what all of these 'discussions' are about . Sometimes he doesnt look a well man to me so the slog of a Championship season might not be the best thing for him. I don't take promotion as a given as some seem to suggest but if Allardyce was to stay I think you can trust him to make us competitive.
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I'm not convinced he will stay on as Head Coach .He may take on an advisory role with the club appointing a younger head coach and i wonder if that is what all of these 'discussions' are about . Sometimes he doesnt look a well man to me so the slog of a Championship season might not be the best thing for him. I don't take promotion as a given as some seem to suggest but if Allardyce was to stay I think you can trust him to make us competitive.
The delay makes me think he is off.
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Allardyce confirmed to the BBC that we will know the outcome of his future prior to the Leeds game..
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I think he Is staying personally.
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I hope he is staying
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Allardyce has indicated a decision will be made prior to the Leeds game.
Do you want Big Sam to stay?
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I'm fairly relaxed either way TBH coaches come and go and always have in a lifetime of following the Baggies and the next couple of years/seasons will be no different
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I’d chuck in a few bob for his bus fare out of here back to Dudley. Little Sammy Lee could sit on his lap and pay half fare. Bye bye Sam’s.
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I’d chuck in a few bob for his bus fare out of here back to Dudley. Little Sammy Lee could sit on his lap and pay half fare. Bye bye Sam’s.
I'd take that as a no then :D
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- Addressed some of the fundamental weaknesses within the squad
- Made an average side difficult to beat
- Football has been easy on the eye at times
- Made an average side look like they are capable in this division.
I appreciate there will be some concerns next season and I am not without them myself but given I have reservations about Dowling, I overwhelmingly want him to stay.
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Praying that he stays. The improvement in us since he arrived has been fairly staggering, he has sorted their fitness out to the point where Phillips can last 90 minutes now which he has not done in years, we look far more organised, we are still hampered by having some awful players but by virtue of the fact he came in and removed Livermore and Sawyers from the equation as soon as he could bring in replacements, it tells me he is astute enough to know where we need to improve and will not remain loyal to names.
Judge him on what he has done with us not who he is. We were doomed with this squad regardless thanks to an awful summer of signings by Downing and Bilic but at least he has made us a competitive outfit and I would wager that we would be a shoo-in for promotion were he to remain in charge
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Absolutely
Whilst I fully accept that he has not kept us in the 'greed league' he has made us very solid at the back and overall tidier in midfield. Came in, saw what we could see and addressed it - I liked that. He even made HRK look good yesterday.
If he is up for the challenge and gets some money from the board then happy days - a promotion bonus should swing it ;D
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Praying that he stays. The improvement in us since he arrived has been fairly staggering, he has sorted their fitness out to the point where Phillips can last 90 minutes now which he has not done in years, we look far more organised, we are still hampered by having some awful players but by virtue of the fact he came in and removed Livermore and Sawyers from the equation as soon as he could bring in replacements, it tells me he is astute enough to know where we need to improve and will not remain loyal to names.
Judge him on what he has done with us not who he is. We were doomed with this squad regardless thanks to an awful summer of signings by Downing and Bilic but at least he has made us a competitive outfit and I would wager that we would be a shoo-in for promotion were he to remain in charge
Spot on!
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Has to be a yes from me, we look competitive now, even in this cess pit of a league. I was no fan when he arrived but I have to swallow that and admit that the chances of us getting anyone better are slim. I'm fully confident that we will be top two next season, only downside being that that will mean relegation back to the greed league.
He will give us a better chance of staying up but I'm not convinced that is ever really a good thing.
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On balance I think it is better if he stays but I have my reservations about his team selections, I don't want to see HRK starting for us next season, or Robinson and Grady sidelined.
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I appreciate what he has done since February, he's made us harder to beat and we have played some good football in that time. Basing it just on that then yes I'd like him to stay.
I'd prefer him to Wilder if that's the only choice.
If Allardyce doesn't want the job, then I worry that we'll go for Wilder or someone like Neil Lennon, Michael Appleton or Derek McInnes.
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Just about yes , thats based on how he and the staff have improved a poor squad and with some better finishing we'd have been in with a good chance of staying up .
As stated before he'd keep Dowling in line , no players like Zohore coming in . I also found Wilder to be quite toxic in his last 12 months at Sheff Utd not to mention big money spent with little return .
The club needs direction , Allardyce has at least got the wheels turning now .
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I appreciate what he has done since February, he's made us harder to beat and we have played some good football in that time. Basing it just on that then yes I'd like him to stay.
I'd prefer him to Wilder if that's the only choice.
If Allardyce doesn't want the job, then I worry that we'll go for Wilder or someone like Neil Lennon, Michael Appleton or Derek McInnes.
That's almost certainly what we'd do.
I think losing Allardyce if we don't need to would be an act of self-harm. I can't see the logic behind the earnest wish of many to see him go, other than a simple "dislike" of Allardyce. If that's based on his personality, fine - but I don't know the man, and I suspect most of those who so dislike him so much don't know him either. But if it's based on some lazy assumptions about "defensive coaching" and being a "dinosaur" that's irrational and unsupported by the evidence.
He's a pragmatist, not wedded to one approach. He's vastly more creative than Tony Pulis - he's at a different level. He tends to get the best out of the players available to him. He's a highly capable, wise and experienced coach. He's been successful throughout his career of more than 1,000 games. Those factors alone put him miles ahead of the alternatives usually mentioned.
If he chooses to leave that's another matter. He needs to be up for it on the terms the club can offer. If not, we're better off without him.
But those who want him out should carefully consider the alternatives, and what those gambles might mean for the fate of our club. I'm a pragmatist and I'd choose any option that gave us our best chance of success. I don't like the look of most of the other options.
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Just about yes , thats based on how he and the staff have improved a poor squad and with some better finishing we'd have been in with a good chance of staying up .
As stated before he'd keep Dowling in line , no players like Zohore coming in . I also found Wilder to be quite toxic in his last 12 months at Sheff Utd not to mention big money spent with little return .
The club needs direction , Allardyce has at least got the wheels turning now .
Maybe Wilder's first move would be to buy back Ollie Burke....
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Not for me . When push comes to shove he may have improved the performance but has he really improved results ? Still a chance we could finish bottom , quite likely we will go 7 games without a win just at the time we needed to kick on off the back of 2 successive wins.
To me the only real reason for keeping him is having absolutely no trust in Dowling or anybody else left at the club to look further than the end of their noses for anybody else .
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Maybe Wilder's first move would be to buy back Ollie Burke....
Exactly , Allardyce in then ! ;D
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100% yes from me, he is our best chance of bouncing back
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I voted no, but caveat it with the growing awareness that the alternative is Wilder who I think is even more ill suited to our squad (in which case, I'd probably prefer Allardyce)
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Didn't have a second thought or any hesitation in voting YES.
I believe he is the man for us and that he is a good fit for the club and the club is a good fit for him, I just hope the powers that be recognise that and Sam also himself.
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Allardyce confirmed to the BBC that we will know the outcome of his future prior to the Leeds game..
What makes me think he is staying is that if he was going we would have already made firmer contact with other possibles, and there is no way agents and tame journos wouldn't have leaked it
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If he decides the day to day of managing isn't for him does anyone ken' if he'd be up for a place in a boardroom which apparently lacks footballing knowledge?
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Not for me . When push comes to shove he may have improved the performance but has he really improved results ? Still a chance we could finish bottom , quite likely we will go 7 games without a win just at the time we needed to kick on off the back of 2 successive wins.
To me the only real reason for keeping him is having absolutely no trust in Dowling or anybody else left at the club to look further than the end of their noses for anybody else .
First 21 games to end January 12 points. February to today 15 games 14 points. I’d say that was an improvement in results, wouldn’t you? There’s very little chance of us finishing bottom.
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Yes...but mostly because I don't trust the board to make a better appointment if he leaves.
Noticeable improvement over the past 3 months or so for sure, but I worry about him getting the best of our most talented players next season (assuming Pereira leaves).
He has also been too risk-averse in must win games - but that could go either way in the championship. If we get our noses in front at that level then we should be able to see more games out than in the Prem. On the other hand we will face more teams set up to nullify us - we can either rely on talent to get us wins or will need to take a more progressive approach to those games.
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Of course. Not because I'm a huge Allardyce fan but simply because I don't see who we would get in, who is better.
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First 21 games to end January 12 points. February to today 15 games 14 points. I’d say that was an improvement in results, wouldn’t you? There’s very little chance of us finishing bottom.
Allardyce s record is less than a point per game
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Yes...but mostly because I don't trust the board to make a better appointment if he leaves.
Noticeable improvement over the past 3 months or so for sure, but I worry about him getting the best of our most talented players next season (assuming Pereira leaves).
He has also been too risk-averse in must win games - but that could go either way in the championship. If we get our noses in front at that level then we should be able to see more games out than in the Prem. On the other hand we will face more teams set up to nullify us - we can either rely on talent to get us wins or will need to take a more progressive approach to those games.
Well said Mig. exactly this for me as well.
I am not completely convinced that he has 'improved the team' to the extent that some of Sam's Supporters seem to think. The loan signing of Yokuslu was the single most important factor and was this Sam or somebody else? However I have sometimes seen something of a slightly better balance between defence and attack, though I'm not a fan of shoving us all back to the 18yd line quite so often.
In the utter dearth of alternative prospects, and in the assumption of his complete commitment to WBA and the future development of the club, then I am prepared to change my original and long deeply entrenched opinions and accept Allardyce staying on. For me this would probably represent the lesser of a number of evils, and probably the lowest risk. Plus I did like his press conference after the Liverpool game, and he shows he is not a bloke too easily shoved around. (except when he's had a bevy or six obviously)
Post modified , no need for the last part .
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I voted 'Yes'. Before he was appointed I didn't want him anywhere near my club, but as time has gone on I have seen a vast improvement in what is in all honesty an awful squad at this level. He has turned us from expecting to get hammered every Week to a side that is genuinely in with a chance of getting something out of every game, and I also believe he will be able to attract the players to get us straight back up.
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First 21 games to end January 12 points. February to today 15 games 14 points. I’d say that was an improvement in results, wouldn’t you? There’s very little chance of us finishing bottom.
Comparing the poor with the extremely poor is scant justification.
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Comparing the poor with the extremely poor is scant justification.
The original point was that he hadn’t improved our results but clearly he has...
Given a player who could stick the ball in the back of the net on a regular basis and the improved performances would have been turned into even better results. I don’t see that there is much of an argument that we are a much better team now than when he arrived.
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Depends on if we find anyone better than Allardyce, which also depends on how hard we try.
If you look at the depressing list of names at the top of the New manager thread, Allardyce is as good as, with the possible exception of Lampard. However, I'd rather Dowling and Co. start searching properly, including which European managers are available. There are some much better candidates out there.
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The original point was that he hadn’t improved our results but clearly he has...
Given a player who could stick the ball in the back of the net on a regular basis and the improved performances would have been turned into even better results. I don’t see that there is much of an argument that we are a much better team now than when he arrived.
Yes and what I'm saying is just because under Allardyce we've gone from very poor to poor is no (well not much of a ) reason for keeping him. You would presumably employ a builder who was slightly better than the well below average kludger you employed before.
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I voted yes purely on the basis that I wouldn’t trust this football club to find anyone better. Allardyce is far from my ideal choice but he knows the squad, and if he stays it gives me some confidence that he thinks the club are going to back him to get us back up.
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Voted no just because he's not suited to the players we have at our disposal, basically we have defenders who are awful at defending. Two games where we played really well were against Chelsea and Southampton High press from our front four caused all sorts of problems, should have been template for rest of season but big Sam went back to a more defensive set up.
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It seems the general consensus is that we should keep him based on the idea that there is no one better available or we don't trust the board to make the right appointment. There are plenty of good managers out there and its up to them to find one. The list of usual suspects has us all worried but don't forget the appointment of Bilic came pretty much out of the blue. Regardless of how it ended he achieved what he was bought in to do.
I think the game has moved on a lot in the time that Sam last managed. We've improved since he first arrived but lets face it he took us to rock bottom first. The January signings have made a difference but I'd argue that Bilic or anyone else for that matter could have managed 15 points in 14 games. I've not seen enough to convince me that he's the right man to get us back up next season.
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Yes , don’t want the risk of an Alan Irvine type of alternative
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Pretty ambivalent. Would lean to yes partly due to the worry of who may come in (not because there are no options but because the hierarchy are making the decision). That said, I think his time has been ok rather than a resounding success.
The big tick in his favour is recruitment.
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He's used what he had to bring organisation and some stability. If he stays he has to have a long term plan and the club must back him. If the club or he want to call it quits then do it quickly so we have the longest period to get sorted before next season.
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Whether its a yes or a no can members give a bit of detail behind that choice . :)
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Whether its a yes or a no can members give a bit of detail behind that choice . :)
I’ve given my reasons previously, but in summary I’ve voted no because:
1, I think we should be aiming for the top 2 - Allardyce hasn’t got a track record of getting top 2 finishes in the championship and he won’t keep getting lucky (for want of a better word) in the play offs.
2, To win a league, most clubs need to have an attacking outlook. Most of the clubs who have been promoted in recent years have been attacking sides. With the money we have available we should be pressing home our advantage with front foot football. Allardyce is fairly safety first in the way he sets up and seems more suited to keeping sides up where draws are more valuable. We saw in the games in March that he struggled to get the team to kick on a gear when they needed to win games, even though his points per game would have seen us get to a slightly more competitive points total. His poor win percentage in his time here doesn’t fill me with faith in that regard either.
3, Despite having a better budget than the majority of the league, money will still be tighter than usual. We can’t afford to write off too many players but I’m not sure how easy it will be for Allardyce to motivate and reintroduce the likes of Grant, Diangana, Sawyers and to a lesser degree Livermore. We need to prioritise getting a striker, a defensive midfielder and an attacking midfielder next season, but Allardyce may well need additional replacements for those 4 which could stretch our budget. I’d prefer a manager to come in with a fresh pair of eyes and to give Diangana, Grant and Sawyers another chance. Any spare budget could go to buying an aerially dominant centre back. We might even see youth players given a go as well (something Allardyce has shied away from in his tenure so far).
I’d probably pick Allardyce over Wilder, so in that sense I’m probably going to have to settle for Big Sam, but my prediction is that at least one of Fulham or Sheff Utd will finish above us with Allardyce in charge.
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I’ve given my reasons previously, but in summary I’ve voted no because:
1, I think we should be aiming for the top 2 - Allardyce hasn’t got a track record of getting top 2 finishes in the championship and he won’t keep getting lucky (for want of a better word) in the play offs.
2, To win a league, most clubs need to have an attacking outlook. Most of the clubs who have been promoted in recent years have been attacking sides. With the money we have available we should be pressing home our advantage with front foot football. Allardyce is fairly safety first in the way he sets up and seems more suited to keeping sides up where draws are more valuable. We saw in the games in March that he struggled to get the team to kick on a gear when they needed to win games, even though his points per game would have seen us get to a slightly more competitive points total. His poor win percentage in his time here doesn’t fill me with faith in that regard either.
3, Despite having a better budget than the majority of the league, money will still be tighter than usual. We can’t afford to write off too many players but I’m not sure how easy it will be for Allardyce to motivate and reintroduce the likes of Grant, Diangana, Sawyers and to a lesser degree Livermore. We need to prioritise getting a striker, a defensive midfielder and an attacking midfielder next season, but Allardyce may well need additional replacements for those 4 which could stretch our budget. I’d prefer a manager to come in with a fresh pair of eyes and to give Diangana, Grant and Sawyers another chance. Any spare budget could go to buying an aerially dominant centre back. We might even see youth players given a go as well (something Allardyce has shied away from in his tenure so far).
I’d probably pick Allardyce over Wilder, so in that sense I’m probably going to have to settle for Big Sam, but my prediction is that at least one of Fulham or Sheff Utd will finish above us with Allardyce in charge.
Some good points here. The bit in bold worries me in particular. Allardyce's strength is as an organiser, but if we are really to grow as a club and have any sort of longish term plan, we have to have a coach who can develop young players to the point of at least challenging for the first team. The current financial situation makes this even more imperative. I fear Allardyce's way will be to sign well worn pros, backed up by younger loans (who will go back to their parent clubs at the end of the season) - in other words, short term fixes.
For the reasons you gave, plus the above, and added to the fact that I can't stand the man, I voted no.
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I voted no, as I feel we could do better.
If we anticipate having a bigger budget than most around us next year, why can’t we be the club poaching the good manager, just for a change, instead of going for free agents.
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
4 wins in 23, an average nearly of 2 goals per game conceded and yet two-thirds of fans are saying "he's done a great job, keep him on". I can't remember any Albion manager who's done so badly and yet has such a high proportion of fans wanting him to remain. Is your bar really so low now? Does anyone seriously think that the Board were expecting so little return from making the change when they did? Allardyce was brought in to save us from relegation, but he hasn't come remotely close to doing so. If only they gave out points for whining, we might have stayed up.
Even if you can find some merit in him staying, it seems clear that he already has one eye on retirement, or at least might not be willing to go through the rigours of a Championship season. Surely people must have concerns about his willingness/fitness to last the distance?
Even if you don't, why would you want him to be the one to take us back up (assuming he could manage that) only then for him to quite conceivably go, and us have the upheaval of bringing someone in at the start of a new Premiership season. Surely it's better to make a change now and appoint someone in who wants to be here for longer than a season or two?
We've had more than our fair share of managers who've been round the block 100 times who've been brought in solely for firefighting. Each one provides an indication that our Board, for far too long, has no cohesive plan and no vision other than short-term desperation. It's high time for new, more progressive leadership and management. Therefore, Allardyce should go and Dowling should go with him. Preferably Lai should sell up too, but that seems unlikely unless/until we get promoted again.
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
4 wins in 23, an average nearly of 2 goals per game conceded and yet two-thirds of fans are saying "he's done a great job, keep him on". I can't remember any Albion manager who's done so badly and yet has such a high proportion of fans wanting him to remain. Is your bar really so low now? Does anyone seriously think that the Board were expecting so little return from making the change when they did? Allardyce was brought in to save us from relegation, but he hasn't come remotely close to doing so. If only they gave out points for whining, we might have stayed up.
Even if you can find some merit in him staying, it seems clear that he already has one eye on retirement, or at least might not be willing to go through the rigours of a Championship season. Surely people must have concerns about his willingness/fitness to last the distance?
Even if you don't, why would you want him to be the one to take us back up (assuming he could manage that) only then for him to quite conceivably go, and us have the upheaval of bringing someone in at the start of a new Premiership season. Surely it's better to make a change now and appoint someone in who wants to be here for longer than a season or two?
We've had more than our fair share of managers who've been round the block 100 times who've been brought in solely for firefighting. Each one provides an indication that our Board, for far too long, has no cohesive plan and no vision other than short-term desperation. It's high time for new, more progressive leadership and management. Therefore, Allardyce should go and Dowling should go with him. Preferably Lai should sell up too, but that seems unlikely unless/until we get promoted again.
Yeah enjoyed reading that - very good post. Thank you.
But the Albion Equation is once more simplified and we're left with awful owners instructing awful directors with no dosh (apparently) and no direction.
We'll be fine next season. And the merry-go-round continues.
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Whether its a yes or a no can members give a bit of detail behind that choice . :)
The question was ‘Do you want Allardyce to stay?’
Straightforward question so whats wrong with a straightforward answer - yes or no?
The question didn’t ask for members to justify their vote and if that justification was required, it should have been included in the question.
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The question was ‘Do you want Allardyce to stay?’
Straightforward question so whats wrong with a straightforward answer - yes or no?
The question didn’t ask for members to justify their vote and if that justification was required, it should have been included in the question.
There is a page of board rules. It's all down in black and white, no one-word answers. AKA the 6th amendment ;)
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The question was ‘Do you want Allardyce to stay?’
Straightforward question so whats wrong with a straightforward answer - yes or no?
The question didn’t ask for members to justify their vote and if that justification was required, it should have been included in the question.
This is forum , we encourage debate from both / all sides on topics rather than social media style answers .
Please take 5 minutes to read the pinned rules , you'll find your answer in there .
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Pretty ambivalent. Would lean to yes partly due to the worry of who may come in (not because there are no options but because the hierarchy are making the decision). That said, I think his time has been ok rather than a resounding success.
The big tick in his favour is recruitment.
Agree with a lot of this , there's stuff he can't be defended on ( Dec / Jan ) but I will say he walked into a utter mess from Dowling / Bilic and IMO a unfit/unmotivated squad . With the owners being so short term I'm not sure there is scope for 3 or 4 year plans unless they change their mind then we should be looking elsewhere .
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It will come as no surprise that I don't want Allardyce for specific Allardyce related reasons.
Trying to look beyond the man I have to ask myself if this was a Head Coach who was not Allardyce but in effect a clone would I want him? The answer is still no.
The reasons are as follows. The appointment was a quick fix and regardless of any improvement in the team's performance it failed. Installing the quick fix as a longer term solution rarely works particularly when the next short term task is entirely different to the one he was bought in to do. Allardyce tends to grind out results in point to point and a half range. His philosophy is entirely based on a must not lose rather than go all out for a win.
I don't get the school of thought of "hate Dowling love Allardyce" . The two are inextricably linked. Dowling bought Allardyce to the club, if Allardyce being here is a good thing then that is a feather in Dowling's cap. The utter nonsense I have seen that suggests Allardyce somehow gets rid of Dowling or replaces him does not have a basis in reality.
The Dof model as it currently works seems to give too much influence to the Head Coach, and that does not matter whether the Head Coach is Bilic or Allardyce or someone else. The squad is shaped n the image of the Head Coach. The problem is that nobody expects Allardyce to be here in 3 years time but the players will be and there will be a different Head Coach with probably a different approach but the players he signs will be. Just like the Pulis legacy is still with us three years and three Head Coaches latter.
I don't necessarily trust the hierarchy to get it right but they at some point they will appoint Allardyce's replacement they might as well do it now as latter and it is better now than latter,
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
4 wins in 23, an average nearly of 2 goals per game conceded and yet two-thirds of fans are saying "he's done a great job, keep him on". I can't remember any Albion manager who's done so badly and yet has such a high proportion of fans wanting him to remain. Is your bar really so low now? Does anyone seriously think that the Board were expecting so little return from making the change when they did? Allardyce was brought in to save us from relegation, but he hasn't come remotely close to doing so. If only they gave out points for whining, we might have stayed up.
Even if you can find some merit in him staying, it seems clear that he already has one eye on retirement, or at least might not be willing to go through the rigours of a Championship season. Surely people must have concerns about his willingness/fitness to last the distance?
Even if you don't, why would you want him to be the one to take us back up (assuming he could manage that) only then for him to quite conceivably go, and us have the upheaval of bringing someone in at the start of a new Premiership season. Surely it's better to make a change now and appoint someone in who wants to be here for longer than a season or two?
We've had more than our fair share of managers who've been round the block 100 times who've been brought in solely for firefighting. Each one provides an indication that our Board, for far too long, has no cohesive plan and no vision other than short-term desperation. It's high time for new, more progressive leadership and management. Therefore, Allardyce should go and Dowling should go with him. Preferably Lai should sell up too, but that seems unlikely unless/until we get promoted again.
Great Post, especially about the stats. Two of those 4 wins came at the end of the season and was down to being forced into the change at Chelsea. Not even close to a point per game. Allardyce's form wouldn't have kept us up in any season.
I think the issue is just how poor he made us when he first came in. 2 months of being on the receiving end of beatings. We then start to scrape a win, a few draws here and there and suddenly we look "better". Allardyce was the disease and the cure.
Aside from a couple of games, the quality of football has been poor, substitutes baffling (when made), our approach has been to "not lose" even in "must win" matches, there's no long term future with Sam in charge, he'll go into "retirement" at the drop of a hat.
Get rid of Sam, Dowling and Lai, or at least as many as we can. Start building a long term plan and get the board to back the manager. Not necessarily by throwing money at it but giving him time to build and not doing stuff like selling our best CH against the manager's wishes on deadline day.
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
4 wins in 23, an average nearly of 2 goals per game conceded and yet two-thirds of fans are saying "he's done a great job, keep him on". I can't remember any Albion manager who's done so badly and yet has such a high proportion of fans wanting him to remain. Is your bar really so low now? Does anyone seriously think that the Board were expecting so little return from making the change when they did? Allardyce was brought in to save us from relegation, but he hasn't come remotely close to doing so. If only they gave out points for whining, we might have stayed up.
Even if you can find some merit in him staying, it seems clear that he already has one eye on retirement, or at least might not be willing to go through the rigours of a Championship season. Surely people must have concerns about his willingness/fitness to last the distance?
Even if you don't, why would you want him to be the one to take us back up (assuming he could manage that) only then for him to quite conceivably go, and us have the upheaval of bringing someone in at the start of a new Premiership season. Surely it's better to make a change now and appoint someone in who wants to be here for longer than a season or two?
We've had more than our fair share of managers who've been round the block 100 times who've been brought in solely for firefighting. Each one provides an indication that our Board, for far too long, has no cohesive plan and no vision other than short-term desperation. It's high time for new, more progressive leadership and management. Therefore, Allardyce should go and Dowling should go with him. Preferably Lai should sell up too, but that seems unlikely unless/until we get promoted again.
This is probably the best article I have ever read on this forum - well done WorcsWBA!
It sums up exactly what is wrong with our club from the owners down through the entire structure and has tainted the opinions of many of the supporters.
Sell our star players; return our successful loanees; appoint an out-of-date elderly Head Coach with health issues and in the mould of previous failures and of course be of the opinion that we will automatically be Champions of the Championship with record points.
What planet are they all on! Planet Dreamland methinks.
Jeremy Peace summed it up well in that BBC Midlands Today of a few years ago when he said
“We are punching above our weight with unrealistic ambitions and in truth, a mid table Championship club.
Well, given the enthusiasm on here to sell our stars and appoint a failure, in my opinion, Mr Peace was quite right, we have no ambition, we have no quality, we have no long term Premiership future.
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
4 wins in 23, an average nearly of 2 goals per game conceded and yet two-thirds of fans are saying "he's done a great job, keep him on". I can't remember any Albion manager who's done so badly and yet has such a high proportion of fans wanting him to remain. Is your bar really so low now? Does anyone seriously think that the Board were expecting so little return from making the change when they did? Allardyce was brought in to save us from relegation, but he hasn't come remotely close to doing so. If only they gave out points for whining, we might have stayed up.
Even if you can find some merit in him staying, it seems clear that he already has one eye on retirement, or at least might not be willing to go through the rigours of a Championship season. Surely people must have concerns about his willingness/fitness to last the distance?
Even if you don't, why would you want him to be the one to take us back up (assuming he could manage that) only then for him to quite conceivably go, and us have the upheaval of bringing someone in at the start of a new Premiership season. Surely it's better to make a change now and appoint someone in who wants to be here for longer than a season or two?
We've had more than our fair share of managers who've been round the block 100 times who've been brought in solely for firefighting. Each one provides an indication that our Board, for far too long, has no cohesive plan and no vision other than short-term desperation. It's high time for new, more progressive leadership and management. Therefore, Allardyce should go and Dowling should go with him. Preferably Lai should sell up too, but that seems unlikely unless/until we get promoted again.
It is not a case of our standards being so low..
The Allardyce era can be split into two periods both before and after the transfer window. The difference between the sides is immeasurable. Allardyce took over a team that was ill equipped to compete in this division such was the appalling transfer window in the summer. His Premiership started across a period of back to back matches with little time on the training field and quite frankly embarrassing
I have not air brushed that from history, but it is clear to see the improvements which have been made.
In one transfer window he identified our weaknesses and signed players which eradicate some of those with the additions of Diange, AMN and Yokuslu. Since then, with more time on the training pitch we have looked every inch a solid Premier League outfit. And that is a fine achievement with a bunch of players that many would deem average and not good enough for this division.
His record since the new players were available to him is one point a game and it quite conceivably should have been more had we missed from 3 yards at Burnley and had Bartley not decided to chest the ball to Keenan Davis. Though we have conceded 18 goals, which is still not the worst in the division, it is worth remembering that 10 of those came against sides in the top five. Our goals scored have us 14th in the division throughout that period.
Should Allardyce take us up then his record is the best placed to keep us in that division and force the sale of the football club that it really needs. I do not envisage a scenario where he keeps us up and buggers off as he will want to rid himself of this seasons relegation.
The real concern is that some folk are demanding a forward thinking progressive appointment, but there is a dose of realism needed that this club does not do forward thinking and nor will it until their is a change of ownership. The alternative is that we appoint some out of work rookie (Alex Meil) and either get promoted or fail to get promoted. We know what happens though - the first sign of pressure that man will be out the door and we’re crying for our next firefighter.
We may as well just save the rigmarole and allow Allardyce to take us up and keep us there.
Is he the perfect option? No - he will come with as much faults as the rest of them, but there is no denying, in my view, that we will be in a much better position with his experienced head and knowledge of the transfer market than relying on the incompetent Dowling.
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What planet are they all on! Planet Dreamland methinks.
Can we just debate the topic without the unnecessary pops at other members who simply have the audacity to have a differing opinion to you? ::)
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Great Post, especially about the stats. Two of those 4 wins came at the end of the season and was down to being forced into the change at Chelsea. Not even close to a point per game. Allardyce's form wouldn't have kept us up in any season.
I think the issue is just how poor he made us when he first came in. 2 months of being on the receiving end of beatings. We then start to scrape a win, a few draws here and there and suddenly we look "better". Allardyce was the disease and the cure.
Aside from a couple of games, the quality of football has been poor, substitutes baffling (when made), our approach has been to "not lose" even in "must win" matches, there's no long term future with Sam in charge, he'll go into "retirement" at the drop of a hat.
Get rid of Sam, Dowling and Lai, or at least as many as we can. Start building a long term plan and get the board to back the manager. Not necessarily by throwing money at it but giving him time to build and not doing stuff like selling our best CH against the manager's wishes on deadline day.
He didnt make us poor, we were awful before he arrived, and he needed a transfer window to at least steady us. Lets face it, we were down before a ball was kicked this season due to his predecessor, and lack of investment from the board. Its easy to throw stats around, but Liam has correctly identified the before and after the transfer window stats which are more accurate.
I am not getting this 'Sam wants to retire' debate either. I don't think he has come out and said that so to me it just appears to be another 'none' factor to throw into the case against. You say this about a 66 year old, but many would have a 73 year old back in a heartbeat.......
I have also seen 'get rid of Sam, Dowling and Lai'. So how do we do that given that one of them actually owns the club? In principle a great idea, but taking this suggestion forward, what's the plan then?
Taking into consideration the state of our ownership, the lack of investment, the quality of our players, it has to be the boards main objective to get us straight back up to sell, and if this is the case I would rather have Sam than anyone else to be honest. The list of potential replacements put up the other day was, with one possible exception, thoroughly depressing.
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Not accepting the bit about splitting the Allardyce record .He came before the opening of the window so no chance of transfers having instant impact, Bilics last game was a draw at Man City, pre signings he got a draw at Liverpool you cannot judt airbrush these stats out and cherry pick to suit
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â¬†ï¸ Nicely put there Skycladd ⬆ï¸
We’re back in the same position we were when last relegated.
I’d like to politely point out to any Albion fan who wishes to dream of the club building something more ‘long-term’ it’s simply not going to happen until we have an owner who shares that very same vision.
Again, as before, the single most important objective is to get back into the Premier League so that Lai can sell the club. He won’t sell it whilst we’re in the Championship because no investor will give him the sort of money he wants.
I do, however, think Luke Dowling should be shown the door. His four transfer windows whilst at the club have been poor. His forward/striker recruitment in particular has been woeful. Personally, I reckon we’re stuck with him at the moment. I think the owner, chairman and CEO believe he’s vital in getting us promoted again as he was the technical director in charge during our 19/20 promotion season.
Our best chance of gaining promotion is to hit the ground running next season with someone who is already at the club and knows where needs strengthening. Best way to do that is to stick with Allardyce.
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He didnt make us poor, we were awful before he arrived
9 games before Allardyce arrived: W1 D3 L5 F5 A13 (5 of those goals against were in 1 game)
9 games after Allardyce arrived: W1 D2 L6 F8 A26
It's abundantly clear that Allardyce's arrival made us significantly worse.
Pepe Mel's points per game record was better than Allardyce's so far (0.88 v 0.82) and Mel had no transfer windows, and he was only allowed to bring in one member of staff of his choosing (that was only after about a month as I recall). I don't recall two-thirds of the fans clamouring for Mel to stay (I did as I felt he hadn't been given a fair chance).
The only non-caretaker Albion manager with a worse win percentage than Allardyce (17.3%) has been Pardew (14.3%). Did two-thirds of fans want Pardew to stay? His overall career win percentage is better than Allardyce's.
many would have a 73 year old back in a heartbeat.......
Not me, to do that would be a regressive move in every respect and the worst kind of short-termism.
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Not me, to do that would be a regressive move in every respect and the worst kind of short-termism.
[/quote]
At least we agree on that Worcs ;)
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Not accepting the bit about splitting the Allardyce record .He came before the opening of the window so no chance of transfers having instant impact, Bilics last game was a draw at Man City, pre signings he got a draw at Liverpool you cannot judt airbrush these stats out and cherry pick to suit
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Its not airbrushing.
It's called looking at it objectively.
The majority of people who would want Allardyce to stay will totally accept that the start of his tenure here was disastrous.
The majority of people are also able to accept the improvements that have been made since the transfer window.
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The only non-caretaker Albion manager with a worse win percentage than Allardyce (17.3%) has been Pardew (14.3%). Did two-thirds of fans want Pardew to stay? His overall career win percentage is better than Allardyce's.
I am not sure how this helps your point in any way possible.
The comparison just is not a worthwhile one considering Pardew oversaw a disastrous season both before and after the transfer window.
Unquestionably, there has been a major improvement in this Allardyce side since he has been able to address the midfield issues - even though we have not always been clinical enough to get the points tally our performance may have warranted.
As for your comments about Pepe Mel - there was widespread support for him across the fan base and a desire for him to remain such was the opposition towards Peace, Downing and the players at that point in time. Such was that support, that supporters donned spanish flags at away games in support of him. Though the comparisons between Mel and Allardyce are again not very worthwhile given what both have achieved in their managerial careers.
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9 games before Allardyce arrived: W1 D3 L5 F5 A13 (5 of those goals against were in 1 game)
9 games after Allardyce arrived: W1 D2 L6 F8 A26
It's abundantly clear that Allardyce's arrival made us significantly worse.
Pepe Mel's points per game record was better than Allardyce's so far (0.88 v 0.82) and Mel had no transfer windows, and he was only allowed to bring in one member of staff of his choosing (that was only after about a month as I recall). I don't recall two-thirds of the fans clamouring for Mel to stay (I did as I felt he hadn't been given a fair chance).
The only non-caretaker Albion manager with a worse win percentage than Allardyce (17.3%) has been Pardew (14.3%). Did two-thirds of fans want Pardew to stay? His overall career win percentage is better than Allardyce's.
Not me, to do that would be a regressive move in every respect and the worst kind of short-termism.
So a point worse off over 9 games... hardly compelling. I presume this changes if you add a couple more games? ;)
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The reason I voted no was because I think we need to build on what is already here over a few years to become an established premier league team again. In the championship, we have a talented, ball playing squad with good movement and some players who could develop into regular premier league starters in a year or two - similar to what we had in 2008/09.
In the premier league, Sam exceeded my expectations a bit (in terms of points won) with the imbalanced squad which lacked enough quality he inherited but I don't think he's someone to get us up and stay there for a year or two or more by building on the better players we already have. I think he will want to make wholesale changes this summer by having the overall say in signings and when he inevitably leaves in a year or two whatever happens, we'd be left with the aftermath of having to begin again.
I don't expect this club to do anything other than make a short term appointment but I'd love them to aim to build a structure, a playing style and a squad to suit this in order to compete over the longer term.
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The reason I voted no was because I think we need to build on what is already here over a few years to become an established premier league team again. In the championship, we have a talented, ball playing squad with good movement and some players who could develop into regular premier league starters in a year or two - similar to what we had in 2008/09.
In the premier league, Sam exceeded my expectations a bit (in terms of points won) with the imbalanced squad which lacked enough quality he inherited but I don't think he's someone to get us up and stay there for a year or two or more by building on the better players we already have. I think he will want to make wholesale changes this summer by having the overall say in signings and when he inevitably leaves in a year or two whatever happens, we'd be left with the aftermath of having to begin again.
I don't expect this club to do anything other than make a short term appointment but I'd love them to aim to build a structure, a playing style and a squad to suit this in order to compete over the longer term.
Who do you mean because aside from Pereira and 18 months ago Grady I don't see this at all mate.
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It’s more an eye test than actual results for the improvement. I can see why people are still sceptical. We look harder to beat and have been competitive but we have still lost so many games under Sam. We have won 4 in 24 with a win percentage of 16.
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The reason I voted no was because I think we need to build on what is already here over a few years to become an established premier league team again. In the championship, we have a talented, ball playing squad with good movement and some players who could develop into regular premier league starters in a year or two - similar to what we had in 2008/09.
I don't think we do..
Our forward options currently consists of Zohore and Robson Kanu - they are hard ball players with good movement.
In midfield our stand out player is Pereira who is likely to leave - our other options are Grant and Robinson. The former has flattered to deceive and the latter hardly set the world alight in his loan spell with us. Diangana the other shining light has been anonymous.
Our central midfield options are a cumbersome pairing of Sawyers and Livermore.
I'll repeat what I said some weeks ago - our best form in the premier league has been when we have been pragmatic, difficult to beat and at times functional. That is the way we will survive in that division as we do not have the resources to go toe to toe in some easy on the eye footballing contest. Whenever we have tried that under both Mowbray and Di Matteo - one of them was sacked and the other relegated.
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I voted no. Allardyce's league record since he joined us is:
P23 W4 D7 L12 F23 A44 Pts 19
I really don't think Bilic or anyone else for that matter could have done much worse.
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"pragmatic, difficult to beat and at times functional."
and therein lies the problem, some will accept that to achieve the dizzying heights of survival whereas others want more than that for their hard earned money and entertainment.
Neither are "right" they are just different standpoints.
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I really don't think Bilic or anyone else for that matter could have done much worse.
We were doing significantly worse though. A point worse for every 3 games played.
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Interestingly this weekend is probably the first time I can recall him talking about 'my team' and 'us' - previously most of the talk has been about 'we (him and Sammy Lee)' and 'the players' or 'the club'.
Might be nothing but I think he may have come around to staying - or at least sounding like he wants to stay so the club have to exercise their break clause rather than he walks
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We were doing significantly worse though. A point worse for every 3 games played.
We were indeed. However with the improvement some players have made plus the January signings I still feel that we would have got to a similar points total or better with AN Other in charge.
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"pragmatic, difficult to beat and at times functional."
and therein lies the problem, some will accept that to achieve the dizzying heights of survival whereas others want more than that for their hard earned money and entertainment.
Neither are "right" they are just different standpoints.
I voted no and this post sums up why. I do not believe he will get the club promoted. This, hard to beat, functional football cannot be the way we play in the championship. We need to be on the front foot and setting out to win each and every game. I doubt we would lose that many games under him but doubt even more that we would win enough. If he stays and proves me wrong then great. I love this football club. I just do not think he is the right man.
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I voted no and this post sums up why. I do not believe he will get the club promoted. This, hard to beat, functional football cannot be the way we play in the championship. We need to be on the front foot and setting out to win each and every game. I doubt we would lose that many games under him but doubt even more that we would win enough. If he stays and proves me wrong then great. I love this football club. I just do not think he is the right man.
The last few seasons have seen the 'footballing' sides promoted from the Championship. I feel under Allardyce that we would try and grind our way out. Not sure that this is the best approach and whether he is flexible enough to change.
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Thats the conundrum though, pass and move our way to promotion and then sit in and absorb our way to survival.
If Allardyce can achieve that particular miracle, I will doff my figurative cap, cannot see it though
a) because of the ownership problem and investment
b) Allardyces history
c) tolerance of the ownership
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The last few seasons have seen the 'footballing' sides promoted from the Championship. I feel under Allardyce that we would try and grind our way out. Not sure that this is the best approach and whether he is flexible enough to change.
I'm no big fan of SA but on what evidence from this season do you suggest he will try and grind out wins? Yes, we have given up possession in a number of games, as would be expected against better quality opposition, but we have been set up to counter and play through the pitch at pace when possible.
This is nothing like the worst Pullis days of 10 behind the ball playing for set pieces. I have no doubt that if he stayed he would try and get the best out of the assets he has like Grady and Grant. That view seems based on pre-existing reputation and perception, right or wrong, rather than on what we have seen on the pitch over the last ten games or so.
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Allardyce: He didnt make us poor, we were awful before he arrived
The run we went on on when he took over was worse than a disaster. Allardyce’s first four home games we managed to lose 17-0 and in between we got knocked out of the fa cup at Blackpool.
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Not for me . When push comes to shove he may have improved the performance but has he really improved results ? Still a chance we could finish bottom , quite likely we will go 7 games without a win just at the time we needed to kick on off the back of 2 successive wins.
To me the only real reason for keeping him is having absolutely no trust in Dowling or anybody else left at the club to look further than the end of their noses for anybody else .
But how do you legislate for the chances Diagne has missed and not just him throughout the team. We should have scored at least 3 at Burnley.
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But how do you legislate for the chances Diagne has missed and not just him throughout the team. We should have scored at least 3 at Burnley.
I've said a few times on here we had a spell from Fulham at home we played mostly pragmatic football which kept us in games AND some decent football creating chances . I won't excuse the finishing at this point , Burnley as you say ...Man Utd ...Phillips from 8 yards in a poorer performance against Newcastle .
A couple of finishers in the side at that point and I think we'd have been in the mix .
Could Allardyce have done anything to get Pro's finishing better at this point ?
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I'm no big fan of SA but on what evidence from this season do you suggest he will try and grind out wins? Yes, we have given up possession in a number of games, as would be expected against better quality opposition, but we have been set up to counter and play through the pitch at pace when possible.
This is nothing like the worst Pullis days of 10 behind the ball playing for set pieces. I have no doubt that if he stayed he would try and get the best out of the assets he has like Grady and Grant. That view seems based on pre-existing reputation and perception, right or wrong, rather than on what we have seen on the pitch over the last ten games or so.
I agree with this - he is a million miles away from Pulis.
There have been times since January where we have played some excellent football.
There have also been some occasions where it has been ordinary.
There have been some occasions where it has been embarrassingly pathetic (the start of his tenure).
That is life in the Premier League with an average squad of players and I do not believe any other manager would have done any different.
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The run we went on on when he took over was worse than a disaster. Allardyce’s first four home games we managed to lose 17-0 and in between we got knocked out of the fa cup at Blackpool.
So are you saying we were OK before he arrived?
The team he inherited were poor and we all know the reasons why. You cannot play championship football in the Premier league. It is worth looking at the line ups for those games to see who was playing and who no longer get a regular start. Once he was allowed to get his own players in we looked a different outfit.
Whilst it is all well and good pointing out in bold what the score was, we lost the games - that doesn't change if it is 1-0, 2-0 or 5-0. Before Sam arrived, we had won 1 game, so that tells me we were a very poor side before that under the previous incumbent. Sam has won 4 and most of the football has been easy on the eye. He should have won more, no doubt about that and I am not going to dream up lame excuses as to why he didn't.
Its done now and all we need to do is prepare for next season. We have two choices; stick with him based on the evidence of improvement we have seen since the transfer window, and hope he can retain the core of the squad and get his way with the board, or we pay him off and get someone else. Easy to say but very hard to do, we have to pay BS off, find the replacement, fund his team etc, and that all costs money. I cannot for one second see Lai going for that to be honest.
We were a complete mess way before Sam arrived, he has at least given us a modicum of credibility.
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If sam don't get the job (or wants to continue in the job) it says all we need to know about the ambitions of the club. he won't stay unless he has some assurance that he will have sufficient funds and a realistic plan to try and achieve promotion. If the owners want to save money they will get someone else. Its that simple. He is a good manager who knows a good player.
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I'm no big fan of SA but on what evidence from this season do you suggest he will try and grind out wins? Yes, we have given up possession in a number of games, as would be expected against better quality opposition, but we have been set up to counter and play through the pitch at pace when possible.
This is nothing like the worst Pullis days of 10 behind the ball playing for set pieces. I have no doubt that if he stayed he would try and get the best out of the assets he has like Grady and Grant. That view seems based on pre-existing reputation and perception, right or wrong, rather than on what we have seen on the pitch over the last ten games or so.
At no point other than the Chelsea and Southampton games have we tried to take the game to the opposition. We’ve sat back tried to absorb the pressure and nick a goal on the counter or from a set piece. We’ve been dire in all of our games against opposition around us in the table. Look back as recent as the Dingles game. Nothing to play for against a team on a poor run and we set up with 5 at the back. I really can’t see his approach changing. Had we stayed up or were appointing him at the start of a new Prem season then I’d be OK with that.
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At no point other than the Chelsea and Southampton games have we tried to take the game to the opposition. We’ve sat back tried to absorb the pressure and nick a goal on the counter or from a set piece. We’ve been dire in all of our games against opposition around us in the table. Look back as recent as the Dingles game. Nothing to play for against a team on a poor run and we set up with 5 at the back. I really can’t see his approach changing. Had we stayed up or were appointing him at the start of a new Prem season then I’d be OK with that.
I can think of a few where we should have won. Burnley away being the most prominent coming to mind. Not saying we were gung ho like how some seem to think we should play, but we definitely had the better chances in a few of the games we didn't win.
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Stepping down thankfully.
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Big Sam announces his departure from WBA
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I for one am gutted
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Need a completely fresh start, so its good that he has decided to go..
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i didnt see interview, has he said he's going
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Wilder it is then.
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Confirmation fro John Percy
Breaking: Sam Allardyce to step down as #wba head coach. Search begins for his successor to take charge in the Championship
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i didnt see interview, has he said he's going
statement on the club site.
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He’s going
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Club statement:
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/club-statement-sam-allardyce
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Not a massive fan, but I'm worried about what's going on behind the scenes. And please not Wilder.
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Here we go again...
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Wilder it is then.
Most unsuitable bloke going .
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Roy ???
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I’ll merge into the main Allardyce thread to keep the discussion in one place
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Most unsuitable bloke going .
I’m with you Dex. I think his appointment would be like going two steps backwards.
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Any chance he can take Dowling with him🙏
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Gone before I get back to the car, we are in big, big trouble.
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Queue him turning up somewhere in December to keep them up
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Any chance he can take Dowling with him🙏
Well said Paul 👍🏻
I hope tonight is the last we’ve seen of Luke Dowling. I’m guessing not, but the bloke is useless.
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Club got it totally wrong, I really worry who they will now find.
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He doesn’t want to manage in the championship and reckons he can talk his away into another premiership job next season. Good riddance.
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The fact he is going tells you the club have told him there’ll be no backing. Gutted by that news, I dread to think what we replace him with
I hate loving the Albion, it’s nothing but misery that you get from it
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Big upheaval at the club I’ve no faith in them getting it right for us to bounce back.
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That’s us doomed then
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Absolutely dreading next season now Sams gone.
EFL is dogturd at the best of times, can only wonder who the club will choose. If it is Wilder then i dread to imagine the transfers him and Dowling conjure up between them.
Thanks Sam. You brought some respect back to the club so i thank you for that.
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The fact he is going tells you the club have told him there’ll be no backing. Gutted by that news, I dread to think what we replace him with
I hate loving the Albion, it’s nothing but misery that you get from it
Not necessarily, Allardyce from all accounts was seriously considering if a season of championship football was good for his family.
In any case, I don’t th8nk he was the right man for the job next season, but Wilder will be even more unsuitable.
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There we go then, on to yet another short term fix head coach who will start to build a squad, get little backing and then be sacked. I dread to think who they’ll appoint next, although we know 2 things are guaranteed 1. they won’t think outside the box and 2. whoever it is won’t be here in 2 years time. My money is on Wilder.
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Well said Paul 👍🏻
I hope tonight is the last we’ve seen of Luke Dowling. I’m guessing not, but the bloke is useless.
Should be sacked first thing in the morning , Allardyce was his last roll of the dice .
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I’m disappointed to see him go as I’d liked to have given him the opportunity to bring us back and hopefully keep us up. If he’s not up to that then he needed to be honest and thankfully we have those answers.
I dread which direction we will go in now.
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People slating wilder, he’s been successful at every club he’s managed. He is far from the worst option. One of the better appointments we could make in my opinion.
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Forget any minimal prospect of Okay staying, why would he.
I also think yet another manager only weakens our prospects of keeping Pereira too.
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Hurrah! Really looking forward to the next chapter in West Brom's history now. Was dreading grinding out 1-0's next season.
It's all down to the replacement now but at least it might be exciting.
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Hurrah! Really looking forward to the next chapter in West Brom's history now. Was dreading grinding out 1-0's next season.
It's all down to the replacement now but at least it might be exciting.
Please, the stigma that big Sam plays boring football is like 2014 stereotypes
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Gutted.
Mid table next season.
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If it's Wilder, it will be a more cramped, negative version of Allardyce. Sheff Utd have only scored 19 goals this season. Obviously no place for flair players.
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People slating wilder, he’s been successful at every club he’s managed. He is far from the worst option. One of the better appointments we could make in my opinion.
Correct - he did brilliant jobs at Oxford, Northampton and Sheff Utd. I don’t understand the negativity.
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Saddened by this. I am worried about the next appointment too.
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Should be sacked first thing in the morning , Allardyce was his last roll of the dice .
Well, at least he got one thing right then if it’s got him his P45 in the post.
A Forest fan told me what a useless turd he was when he got the technical director gig at the Albion. I thought it may have been sour grapes given his involvement at Watford. But no, the Forest fan was right on the money. Like Dowling is a turd alright!
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Correct - he did brilliant jobs at Oxford, Northampton and Sheff Utd. I don’t understand the negativity.
He built the only side in this league who are worse than our pile of ****.
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For what it’s worth I wanted Sam to stay, but I’m pleased that it sounds like the club were willing to financially commit and match his ambition. To me it sounds like Sam may have some health concerns which is why he can’t commit long term. All the best to him.
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Correct - he did brilliant jobs at Oxford, Northampton and Sheff Utd. I don’t understand the negativity.
If you enjoy trying to grind out 1-0's and failing a lot of the time.
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He doesn’t want to manage in the championship and reckons he can talk his away into another premiership job next season. Good riddance.
Not sure we'll ever know the full truth on his reasons for going but I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with a lack of commitment on players from the board. I fear that whoever comes in next will be forced to rebuild a team around players that were only just good enough to win promotion last season. Allardyce knew that the likes of Livermore and Sawyers etc, are simply not up to the job. Say what you like about Big Sam but he spotted our weaknesses and dealt with them. Had he have had the opportunity to bring one or two more players in a few weeks earlier I think he may just have saved us.
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He built the only side in this league who are worse than our pile of ****.
He built a side that took them from League 1 to the top half of the Prem. In the end it proved too difficult to keep them there.
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I'm relieved that he's going. He'll have been in charge for two-thirds of the season and yet we're probably going to finish with the lowest number of points we've accumulated for 18 years. We've also conceded 73 goals (and counting) when one thing you would expect Allardyce to be able to do is make a team more resilient at the back. The average number of goals conceded per game has worsened since his arrival.
The Board opted for short-termism with no vision and no sustainable plan, so I have no sympathy with them for how it's turned out and the consequential terrible mess that we're now in. Ironically, Allardyce sees things the same way as I do regarding his successor, saying: "I believe the club now needs stability and continuity and this would, in my opinion, best be provided by a young and ambitious manager". Let's see if the Board can actually stumble on a proactive plan. Wilder isn't the answer IMO.
Dowling should be following him out of the door but, sadly, Ken and Lai seem to be blinkered when it comes to him. It's a very costly and recurring mistake on their part. Meanwhile, Allardyce can ride off into the sunset - it seems to me that was always likely to happen, regardless of whether we stayed up or went down.
Now, will the Board continue to flounder hopelessly or will they find a way to become competent, ideally by bringing in some new, capable staff members?
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Seriously worried for the club now.
Needs to be sold and serious owners step up otherwise we are a Stoke / Derby / Sunderland waiting to happen.
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For what it’s worth I wanted Sam to stay, but I’m pleased that it sounds like the club were willing to financially commit and match his ambition. To me it sounds like Sam may have some health concerns which is why he can’t commit long term. All the best to him.
Allardyce is just making excuses because he doesn’t fancy dropping into the championship.
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Thanks Sam for your efforts. I didn't want him as manager, we need to go in a different direction. I liked the Bilic experiment, pity it didn't work! Not sure I have enough confidence in this board to get anything right!
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If it's Wilder, it will be a more cramped, negative version of Allardyce. Sheff Utd have only scored 19 goals this season. Obviously no place for flair players.
They were fourth highest scorers when he got them promoted from the championship. He rightly tried to keep them up by focusing on defence.
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He built a side that took them from League 1 to the top half of the Prem. In the end it proved too difficult to keep them there.
Even that season they barely scored a goal and relied on Dean Henderson to bail them out every week. As soon as Henderson left Sheff Utd were shown up to be a pub team. Wilder swapped Robinson for Burke! No thank, don’t want his dinosaur boring turgid football.
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Allardyce is just making excuses because he doesn’t fancy dropping into the championship.
He also knows our budget for next season...
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Gone before I get back to the car, we are in big, big trouble.
Why’s that then?
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Allardyce is just making excuses because he doesn’t fancy dropping into the championship.
to be fair, if Bakeyface is as ITK as his previous posts suggest, it is predominantly Sam’s health that was the major issue. We wanted him to stay and he wanted to stay too but in the end seems he couldn’t do it.
It’s also his post that suggested Wilder was the backup option.
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Queue him turning up somewhere in December to keep them up
Or not, as the case may be.
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to be fair, if Bakeyface is as ITK as his previous posts suggest, it is predominantly Sam’s health that was the major issue. We wanted him to stay and he wanted to stay too but in the end seems he couldn’t do it.
It’s also his post that suggested Wilder was the backup option.
It does sound like they were willing to stump up this time to be fair but Sam wont commit to 2 seasons which is fair enough. I'd be a lot happier if we got a decent DOF in quick smart and they identify a new manager. I do not trust Dowling with the clubs money.
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Quotes online to state the club want someone for the long term and Allardyce can’t assure us of that..
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I’m with you Dex. I think his appointment would be like going two steps backwards.
Dont worry it'll be Alex Neil :o
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He also knows our budget for next season...
There is £3m difference between finishing 17th and 18th and yet he’d already made the decision to walk before tonight. I don’t think it’s due to the budget. He just fancies himself getting another premiership job next year and at his age can’t be bothered with the championship.
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Delighted he won't be here next season, came to the club with sole remit of keeping us in league and let's be frank he failed miserably. Dowling will push for Wilder as he's a big fan but I hope owners will consider other candidates.
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Quotes online to state the club want someone for the long term and Allardyce can’t assure us of that..
Yes it says he wont commit to 2 seasons.
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It does sound like they were willing to stump up this time to be fair but Sam wont commit to 2 seasons which is fair enough. I'd be a lot happier if we got a decent DOF in quick smart and they identify a new manager. I do not trust Dowling with the clubs money.
Fair enough if true.
I'd accept a new manager with Dowling shown the door.
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Thanks Sam for erm.......
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Please, the stigma that big Sam plays boring football is like 2014 stereotypes
I've watched every game this season. The most exciting and front footed games were Chelsea, where he was forced into the change, and Southampton, where he kept the same team.
Today wasn't that bad as I said in the after match thread. There was far too many games and periods in games where we sat way too deep and it tactically cost us
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There is £3m difference between finishing 17th and 18th and yet he’d already made the decision to walk before tonight. I don’t think it’s due to the budget. He just fancies himself getting another premiership job next year and at his age can’t be bothered with the championship.
There is not a side in the premier league that would give him a job so I’d say it’s not that.
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Quotes online to state the club want someone for the long term and Allardyce can’t assure us of that..
That takes the proverbial. We sack anyone we appoint within a 18 months as soon as they can’t perform a miracle. We had a bloke for the long term with automatic promotion from the championship on his cv and the backing of the team and we kicked him out.
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Dont worry it'll be Alex Neil :o
Ha, like when the board revisited the idea of having Alan Irvine 😂
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There is not a side in the premier league that would give him a job so I’d say it’s not that.
Wait till December and watch a team in the bottom six call for him, happens every season.
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Why’s that then?
I assume the lack of alternative options and that were relying on the appointment being made by someone proving himself to be incompetent.
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Wait till December and watch a team in the bottom six call for him, happens every season.
They won’t. The days of calling for your Pardew, Allardyce and Pulis’ are over.
There is not a side in the bottom half of that division where he fits.
I think this is more age related rather than him holding out for another job. His unique selling point is now in tatters.
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Another choice by Dowling? Another one floundering and out of his depth.
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Somewhat relieved that he has gone.
Before posters jump to the obvious conclusions about his departure I suggest they read his statement, which gives his reasons for not taking up the club's "generous offer"
Moving on from him in a heartbeat.
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@JosephMasi_Star
"I'm not long term and they want long term. That's not me." #wba
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Somewhat relieved that he has gone.
Before posters jump to the obvious conclusions about his departure I suggest they read his statement, which gives his reasons for not taking up the club's "generous offer"
Moving on from him in a heartbeat.
I'm with you Sam an unforgettable time at the helm
Next
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Quotes online to state the club want someone for the long term and Allardyce can’t assure us of that..
When do we ever have a long term manager? The club are talking nonsense if that is their statement
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@JosephMasi_Star
"I'm not long term and they want long term. That's not me." #wba
This is obvious to anyone, except the Board apparently....
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Somewhat relieved that he has gone.
Before posters jump to the obvious conclusions about his departure I suggest they read his statement, which gives his reasons for not taking up the club's "generous offer"
Moving on from him in a heartbeat.
yep, move on, next appointment is massive. I don't fancy Wilder due to
a) lack of playing wide men
b) his recent transfer record
Steve Clarke is the man for me.
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They won’t. The days of calling for your Pardew, Allardyce and Pulis’ are over.
There is not a side in the bottom half of that division where he fits.
I think this is more age related rather than him holding out for another job. His unique selling point is now in tatters.
I agree. I think Palace may look for that type of manager but can’t see him going back there.
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They won’t. The days of calling for your Pardew, Allardyce and Pulis’ are over.
There is not a side in the bottom half of that division where he fits.
I think this is more age related rather than him holding out for another job. His unique selling point is now in tatters.
I think your wrong, Allardyce is already using his sky interview tonight to tout himself as a firefighter and it’s grossly unfair to compare him to Alan Pardew or Pulis.
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I agree. I think Palace may look for that type of manager but can’t see him going back there.
Allardyce is going to have a nice holiday and wait for Watford to call him in December.
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When do we ever have a long term manager? The club are talking nonsense if that is their statement
Well what they've been doing doesn't work, so they might as well try it. No-one can seriously believe that yet more short-termism is the way forward.
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This is obvious to anyone, except the Board apparently....
With current owners we can look no further than the current season. Until Lai sells this is our long-term, short-thinking destiny.
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Allardyce is going to have a nice holiday and wait for Watford to call him in December.
Watford have never been interested in him before and they have appointed lots of managers.
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Watford have never been interested in him before and they have appointed lots of managers.
It’s an example, no one has crystal ball; they appointed Nigel Pearson, watch this space.
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Sorry he as gone. Whoever is going to come in as got to be a quick appointment no messing about waiting until 2 days before the season starts. We need to sort out who's going who's staying how much money is there to spend what's happening with the loan players. This needs to be done and in place ready for when they return for training. Hopefully they will have some idea who the new man is going to be as Allardyce would have told them of his decision weeks ago so they would be actively seeking a new man now.
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It’s an example, no one has crystal ball; they appointed Nigel Pearson, watch this space.
They deserved to get relegated for sacking Pearson.
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It’s an example, no one has crystal ball; they appointed Nigel Pearson, watch this space.
I understand it’s just an example but what other examples are there in the Prem?
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I understand it’s just an example but what other examples are there in the Prem?
Whoever is firefighting relegation. There is always 6-8 clubs in trouble and a few will panic and seek out a firefighter like Allardyce, it happens every season.
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I'm a bit surprised that he has gone.
Ah well, new start it is then.
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I'm a bit surprised that he has gone.
Ah well, new start it is then.
I suspect the players have known for a while. Bartley recently referred to the need to sort that management situation out.
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I've moved on already, in fact about 4 seconds (maybe 2) after I heard he'd leave . I didn't expect him to be here more than he needed or until he had a better offer.
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I think your wrong, Allardyce is already using his sky interview tonight to tout himself as a firefighter and it’s grossly unfair to compare him to Alan Pardew or Pulis.
I’m not comparing him to them - he is a damn sight better than both - I’m merely pointing out that those firefighter managers are not as in demand anymore unless your name is West Bromwich Albion.
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Allardyce is going to have a nice holiday and wait for Watford to call him in December.
Wolves.
Let's hope the end result is the same.
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With current owners we can look no further than the current season. Until Lai sells this is our long-term, short-thinking destiny.
Pretty much nailed it. But with this owner, I would suggest we look no further than the next transfer window/quarter of a season to be underwhelmed yet again & start the search for the next manager to replace the manager we haven’t appointed yet.
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Whoever is firefighting relegation. There is always 6-8 clubs in trouble and a few will panic and seek out a firefighter like Allardyce, it happens every season.
. The 3 promoted clubs and possibly Palace will be firefighting. I am confident in ruling Norwich and Palace out. Watford possible but as I said they have not been interested before. Obviously we don’t know the other team yet.
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I’m not comparing him to them - he is a damn sight better than both - I’m merely pointing out that those firefighter managers are not as in demand anymore unless your name is West Bromwich Albion.
You brought up Pardrew and Pulis. I’ve never suggested they are in demand. I think Allardyce will be in demand as he has an impressive CV. If you think no one will want to appoint Big Sam next December then you have a different take to me.
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With current owners we can look no further than the current season. Until Lai sells this is our long-term, short-thinking destiny.
I agree wholeheartedly with this.
Though I’m not sure the next owners will be any different as they are also going to want their hands in the premier league monies.
Clubs will struggle to plan in the long term due to the financial rewards at stake
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. The 3 promoted clubs and possibly Palace will be firefighting. I am confident in ruling Norwich and Palace out. Watford possible but as I said they have not been interested before. Obviously we don’t know the other team yet.
We don’t even know who is going to win the playoffs so it’s a bit odd to be speculating which specific club and boardroom specifically will be looking to change managers when they are in a relegation fight next season. But it happens every year.
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I don’t think we will see him manage again. Have a feeling he has some serious health conditions and a step away from football is more than likely.
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Clubs will struggle to plan in the long term due to the financial rewards at stake
The irony of this is that it is our impatience and short term thinking that has failed us and got us to the position we are in, as opposed to doing a Norwich. At least we have interesting summer to look forward to.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this.
Though I’m not sure the next owners will be any different as they are also going to want their hands in the premier league monies.
Clubs will struggle to plan in the long term due to the financial rewards at stake
Yes all owners will want to be in the PL but ours is the only owner that is completely clueless AND careless in charge of his assets
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We don’t even know who is going to win the playoffs so it’s a bit odd to be speculating which specific club and boardroom specifically will be looking to change managers when they are in a relegation fight next season. But it happens every year.
You may be right, I see it differently as there is such a big gap between the top 17 and the bottom 3 this season. The teams coming up are no more equipped to bridge that gap. I really don’t think there will be many teams firefighting. Only time will tell!
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The irony of this is that it is our impatience and short term thinking that has failed us and got us to the position we are in, as opposed to doing a Norwich. At least we have interesting summer to look forward to.
I agree with you mate. There’s a lot to learn and admire from clubs like Norwich, Brentford and Barnsley rather than our scattergun approach.
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Well thank frog for that.
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I don’t think we will see him manage again. Have a feeling he has some serious health conditions and a step away from football is more than likely.
Who really cares to be honest, he's done what he wanted in the game and earned a fair amount in six months with us in spite of having a limited impact . Good luck to him but did anyone really expect him to settle for a while at albion? I didn't , He was/ is always a caretaker until a club realises they need a longer term appointment. I'm not convinced he has it anymore to be honest , he seemed to lack the energy we'd certainly need next season for a long season.
Ironically other clubs eg Norwich and brentford have copied our old.blueprint which worked whilst we reverted to the Sunderland and other blueprints who failed time and again
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Yes all owners will want to be in the PL but ours is the only owner that is completely clueless AND careless in charge of his assets
With our budget relegation was inevitable and the board could have done themselves a favour by being more honest about how we went about things. I’m critical of them for that and I didn’t agree with sacking the manager - on the basis we would now be exactly where I feared. Back in the championship with no head coach and an unsettled team. But I think the boards choices of managers, Bilic and Allardyce have been as good as we could have hoped for.
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With our budget relegation was inevitable and the board could have done themselves a favour by being more honest about how we went about things. I’m critical of them for that and I didn’t agree with sacking the manager - on the basis we would now be exactly where I feared. Back in the championship with no head coach and an unsettled team. But I think the boards choices of managers, Bilic and Allardyce have been as good as we could have hoped for.
What made relegation inevitable was they stuck with Bilic in an unworkable situation and between Dowling and Bilic they all spunked the club's money up the wall. Relegation in itself doesn't bother me that much. It was expected.
To waste so much money was awful though mate. They could have done a Norwich in fact I'm sure we both said so before a ball was kicked.
These are consequences of owners who are out of their depth
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well now what to do they announce it after most of the fans have left the hawthorns so they can't even go and make there feelings known what a great way to end what was a happy day with fans returning. Well now we are well and truly doomed. Oh well at least my Fifa Albion team are doing fantastic
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Funny that though I've never been an Allardyce fan, and still don't think his football offers a great deal of flair, I'm dissapointed at a human level he's going. He was starting to show a bit of passion for the club, perhaps re-discovering his Black Country roots.
I'm also worried that we will end up with someone worse, given that we seem to be just relying on Dowling and whatever contacts in the English game he has.
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Funny that though I've never been an Allardyce fan, and still don't think his football offers a great deal of flair, I'm dissapointed at a human level he's going. He was starting to show a bit of passion for the club, perhaps re-discovering his Black Country roots.
I'm also worried that we will end up with someone worse, given that we seem to be just relying on Dowling and whatever contacts in the English game he has.
That's inevitable imo. There isn't any better out there who Dowling has heard of.
I think it'll be John Terry fwiw.
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That's inevitable imo. There isn't any better out there who Dowling has heard of.
I think it'll be John Terry fwiw.
Wayne Bridge as his assistant?
Can't see JT. Can see it being Appleton unfortunately.
We're a big fish in that division so I'm hoping for more.
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What made relegation inevitable was they stuck with Bilic in an unworkable situation and between Dowling and Bilic they all spunked the club's money up the wall. Relegation in itself doesn't bother me that much. It was expected. To waste so much money was awful though mate. They could have done a Norwich in fact I'm sure we both said so before a ball was kicked. These are consequences of owners who are out of their depth
From reading your post without any knowledge of what we spent I would be left with the impression that we had thrown £120m at players and got relegated. We had the lowest budget in the whole league and managed to outperform that to finish above Sheff Utd.
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From reading your post without any knowledge of what we spent I would be left with the impression that we had thrown £120m at players and got relegated. We had the lowest budget in the whole league and managed to outperform that to finish above Sheff Utd.
No quantity of money, small or vast, was suggested in my post rather that whatever we had was spent poorly overall imo
Edit - sorry just saw 2nd bold part as I'm on phone. I don't think many non Albion fans are in here worrying about our transfer dealings
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Bit tired of 'Slap My Bilic Up' to be honest. Yes his tenure petered out big style but technically he achieved his objective whilst Sam did not achieve his, criticise it all you may.
Not having a pop at Sam or his supporters here but can we recognise what Slaven did... end of the day neither manager, regardless of their own decisions, got the support that was needed.
...and rinse and repeat for next season next manager.
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No quantity of money, small or vast, was suggested in my post rather that whatever we had was spent poorly overall imo
Over 30m on Grant and Dianagana who could barely get a game would substantiate your claim.
Our dealings last summer were just abysmal.
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Over 30m on Grant and Dianagana who could barely get a game would substantiate your claim.
Our dealings last summer were just abysmal.
They really were. Looking back it was obviously doomed to failure.
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I wasnt the biggest alladyce fan however i saw why he was necessary and what he managed with the linited resources. At the end we were competitive and lost many games on fine margins because we havent been good enough. He restored some pride so i thank him for that.
I felt reasonably confident in us returning to the league under his stewardship and thought he might finish sorting our squad out. I am now worried for the upcoming season. I dont trust the club to get this descison right sadly think they got lucky will billic.
The timing of the announcement seemed very strange considering it looked as if he was staying. What happened?
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Wouldn't be Albion without the drama. Pretty gutted he's gone. It seems the moment we get a half decent manager who is showing some signs of progression, we either lose them to someone else or in this case they walk. Hodgson, Mowbray and Allardyce have to be up there with some of the best we've had in the last 10-15yrs. None of them have stayed longer than 2 seasons.
Don't know what to make of his reasoning, 'I'm fireman Sam and always will be'. If there was one club he could of shaked that off it was with us. He's a local guy with a point to prove and the club were (supposedly) willing to entrust him with the budget and autonomy to build back better and establish us as a PL club once more.
I do fear for the future. I think it's pretty likely Wilder will come in, who of course has a decent track record but just feels like the Albion job is a poisoned chalice these days.
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4 wins in 23 doesn't make him one of the best in my opinion.
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Just watched a video on the official web site of an interview with Sam at the end of
the game explains his stepping down and he is close to tears.
Thank you for all your efforts Sam, I wish you all the best for the future, whatever that holds for you
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Just watched a video on the official web site of an interview with Sam at the end of
the game explains his stepping down and he is close to tears.
Thank you for all your efforts Sam, I wish you all the best for the future, whatever that holds for you
I think he is playing down health concerns but will not officially retire, in case he gets the chance of another 20 game pay day next season.
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4 wins in 23 doesn't make him one of the best in my opinion.
No it certainly doesn't; though I'm not dissing him when I say that. The Chelsea game - amongst other moment through the season - prove there is enough in the collective tank.
However I have zero confidence in our patchwork board finding Sam's successor and in particular someone who can get the most out of what we have while adding the right round pegs to the round holes...
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Just watched a video on the official web site of an interview with Sam at the end of
the game explains his stepping down and he is close to tears.
Thank you for all your efforts Sam, I wish you all the best for the future, whatever that holds for you
I saw that video too.
In one of life’s little ironies, his managerial career almost began at WBA but certainly ended on a bit of a sad note by losing his ‘never been relegated from the top flight’ reputation with us.
Good luck and best wishes Big Sam. And hey, we’ll always have 16/01/2021 at Molineux to thank you for.
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The subtext of the resignation is surely that he sees us as a basket case Not sorry he's gone though
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I think one of the telling quotes from the interviews was when he said if he stayed on & got us up next year he’d then be expected to stay on for a season in the Premiership. I think he’s looked at it & thought at the age of 67 has he got 2 seasons left in him 1 of those been a slog of a championship season & has obviously decided he hasn’t.
Interesting to see him mention we need a long term plan, he’s absolutely bang on about that there’s obviously going to be a big turnover with the squad these next 2 seasons we really need to think about long term planning but with those in charge sadly I don’t see that happening. The club should definitely be looking to add him as part of upper management on a consultancy type basis, we really lack any football experience within the board & I’d be far more comfortable with Dowling staying on if he had Allardyce to use as a sounding board.
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I’m not comparing him to them - he is a damn sight better than both [Pardew & Pulis] - I’m merely pointing out that those firefighter managers are not as in demand anymore unless your name is West Bromwich Albion.
As Allardyce's career managerial win percentage is 38.93% compared to Pardew's 41.13% (ignoring caretaker/international roles - source: Wikipedia), I'm not sure on what basis you're claiming that Allardyce is a damn sight better than Pardew?
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I think one of the telling quotes from the interviews was when he said if he stayed on & got us up next year he’d then be expected to stay on for a season in the Premiership. I think he’s looked at it & thought at the age of 67 has he got 2 seasons left in him 1 of those been a slog of a championship season & has obviously decided he hasn’t.
That was always likely to be the case at the time we appointed him, the vast majority of managers have retired by the age of 65. Dowling is being naive/disingenuous by stating that he was hoping for 3+ seasons out of Allardyce.
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Over 30m on Grant and Dianagana who could barely get a game would substantiate your claim.
Our dealings last summer were just abysmal.
Hard to criticise the Grady signing imo - he is a great talent whose season was derailed by injury, loss of form and then just not getting back into the side. Got to remember it was his first season at Prem level and even Pereira wasn't great before Xmas.
I'm with you on Grant though.
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I think one of the telling quotes from the interviews was when he said if he stayed on & got us up next year he’d then be expected to stay on for a season in the Premiership. I think he’s looked at it & thought at the age of 67 has he got 2 seasons left in him 1 of those been a slog of a championship season & has obviously decided he hasn’t.
Interesting to see him mention we need a long term plan, he’s absolutely bang on about that there’s obviously going to be a big turnover with the squad these next 2 seasons we really need to think about long term planning but with those in charge sadly I don’t see that happening. The club should definitely be looking to add him as part of upper management on a consultancy type basis, we really lack any football experience within the board & I’d be far more comfortable with Dowling staying on if he had Allardyce to use as a sounding board.
I saw the post match interview and he clearly had a downer on the press regarding his 'label', so I am quite surprised he has gone. As you say perhaps he sees himself as having two more seasons left in him, and I am sure he could have got rid of his fireman Sam tag that he seems to loath. However, there are a couple of reasons why he is going and I am sure we will find out why in time to come. My best guess is that the board would not give him the financial backing for next seasons campaign, and as an earlier post neatly summed it up, he sees us a a basket case.... and we are aren't we?
Or he could have been just plain sacked and the carefully worded statement steers us away from that fact.
Despite my earlier posts of a couple of years ago, I have grown to like him and I wish him well.
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I don't blame him from stepping away from a full time role. He's going to get at least 6 months off before potentially being called in to help out again. It's almost like semi-retirement for him. Why put yourself through a 46 game Champ season if you don't have to?
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I don't blame him from stepping away from a full time role. He's going to get at least 6 months off before potentially being called in to help out again. It's almost like semi-retirement for him. Why put yourself through a 46 game Champ season if you don't have to?
He wants a nice warm extended holiday (I think he has a villa in Marbella) and then another premiership firefighting project when the phone rings in six months time, he'd much prefer that to trying to grind us through 46 championship games, that's the gamble he has taken and it makes sense to him.
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He wants a nice warm extended holiday (I think he has a villa in Marbella) and then another premiership firefighting project when the phone rings in six months time, he'd much prefer that to trying to grind us through 46 championship games, that's the gamble he has taken and it makes sense to him.
Why's it a gamble, I hardly imagine that he'll be destitute even if he never works again? As for needing an extended holiday, he's only been here for 6 months and was unemployed for 2.5 years prior to that!
He might have stayed for the remainder of his contract if we'd survived (which he failed to achieve by a long distance), but I don't think it was realistic for anyone to expect him to stay beyond the 18 months he originally came in for. It was an appointment that reeked of desperation and short-termism, and Dowling should carry the can for the failure this season by being shown the door.
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Why's it a gamble, I hardly imagine that he'll be destitute even if he never works again? As for needing an extended holiday, he's only been here for 6 months and was unemployed for 2.5 years prior to that!
He might have stayed for the remainder of his contract if we'd survived (which he failed to achieve by a long distance), but I don't think it was realistic for anyone to expect him to stay beyond the 18 months he originally came in for. It was an appointment that reeked of desperation and short-termism, and Dowling should carry the can for the failure this season by being shown the door.
I didn't mean he was heading to his local food bank any time soon. Only that he is relying on another struggling premiership side coming in for him next December. BTW this season is only a failure if you had unrealistic expectations of survival on the back of a tiny £20m upfront budget. The only surprise is that we didn't finish 20th.
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Haven’t heard the interview but the quotes from Allardyce’s talk sport interview this morning suggest he had made his decision to leave some time ago, which means it nothing to do with the budget like some conspiratorial observers have suggested. He told Simon Jordan that he lied when he said he was considering his future and that he was never considering dropping down for a campaign in the championship.
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BTW this season is only a failure if you had unrealistic expectations of survival on the back of a tiny £20m upfront budget. The only surprise is that we didn't finish 20th.
We were 3 points adrift when Bilic was sacked, at a point when we'd started looking more difficult to beat and had just got a deserved draw at Man City. We're currently 13 points adrift.
Allardyce wasn't brought in to preside over our relegation, he was appointed in a desperate attempt to keep us up. As such, that desperate act has demonstrably failed, regardless of how realistic our expectation of survival was.
If the Board had no expectation of staying up, they should either have kept Bilic on or made the longer term appointment that's now being mooted, with the new incumbent being given chance to experiment and gain experience with no pressure regarding results. That they didn't do either of those things implies that they thought there was a viable chance of survival and mistakenly believed that Allardyce could achieve that.
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Glad to see the back of him personally, but I do give him credit for being upfront about not being willing to commit to a minimum 2 years, which would have been the Board's starting point I would imagine. Also agree with his statement that we need to plan for the longer term and appoint a young, ambitious manager.
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I for one am disappointed that he’s decided to go . I have to say I felt quite flat when I heard the news last night after watching the match on Sky . I can’t say I felt the same after Slav went . I think that was due to Slavs persistence with certain players. Sam definitely seemed to get improvement out of several players most notably Matt Phillips .
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We were 3 points adrift when Bilic was sacked, at a point when we'd started looking more difficult to beat and had just got a deserved draw at Man City. We're currently 13 points adrift.
Allardyce wasn't brought in to preside over our relegation, he was appointed in a desperate attempt to keep us up. As such, that desperate act has demonstrably failed, regardless of how realistic our expectation of survival was.
If the Board had no expectation of staying up, they should either have kept Bilic on or made the longer term appointment that's now being mooted, with the new incumbent being given chance to experiment and gain experience with no pressure regarding results. That they didn't do either of those things implies that they thought there was a viable chance of survival and mistakenly believed that Allardyce could achieve that.
I don't remember that bit Worcs, we were cannon fodder for many games and the Man City result came out of the blue.
However, your post does put the ball of blame in the boards court, which I fully agree with. My view is that Pep would have struggled with the team Slave left us.....
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All a bit meh really isn't it?
Allardyce took over a hopeless team at this level. The we were only three points adrift argument is invalid, we'd not played enough games to be any further behind!
He improved us and if he wanted to stay for next season I'd have been OK with it, am I gutted he's gone? Absolutely not. Will we make an absolute pig's ear of picking his replacement? Absolutely yes.
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https://talksport.com/football/883880/sam-allardyce-admits-lied-west-brom-future-relegation/
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I don't mind the "he improved us" statement - the biggest difference has been Okay sitting in there. I just don't get the baffling decisions of playing 5 at the back in must win games, dropping Robinson when he was clearly the spark that brought a bit of life in the team, why we drop deep and don't pressure the ball, moaning about fixture lists and not using all his subs, watching us pushed further back and not doing anything about it, setting us up to get a poor defence defending more, then not strengthening the defence, constantly blaming the players, etc
So many baffling decisions that a few draws and a handful of wins don't hide for me.
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Allardyce took over a hopeless team at this level. The we were only three points adrift argument is invalid, we'd not played enough games to be any further behind! He improved us.
We were 3 points adrift after 13 games. Before dismissing the argument as entirely invalid, do you want to extrapolate that across a full season and then compare it to how many points adrift we are now? Allardyce also contrived to make the average goals conceded per game for the remainder of the season worse than it had been for the first 13 games. Some improvement...
Anyway, he's going so I'm not wasting any more cyber-breath on him. Let him start his much-needed holiday next week, having worked for 6 months in the past 3 years!
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I don't remember that bit Worcs, we were cannon fodder for many games and the Man City result came out of the blue.
However, your post does put the ball of blame in the boards court, which I fully agree with. My view is that Pep would have struggled with the team Slave left us.....
Not to get too side tracked but your memory is flawed. The Man City result did not come out of the blue at all. It followed on from a narrow defeat by Newcastle, a drubbing by Palace (but only after we went down to 10 men. Chelsea suffered a similar drubbing by us in similar circumstances), and before that, a run of 7 matches where we only conceded 7 goals. Hardly cannon fodder.
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I don't mind the "he improved us" statement - the biggest difference has been Okay sitting in there. I just don't get the baffling decisions of playing 5 at the back in must win games, dropping Robinson when he was clearly the spark that brought a bit of life in the team, why we drop deep and don't pressure the ball, moaning about fixture lists and not using all his subs, watching us pushed further back and not doing anything about it, setting us up to get a poor defence defending more, then not strengthening the defence, constantly blaming the players, etc
So many baffling decisions that a few draws and a handful of wins don't hide for me.
We were 3 points adrift when Bilic was sacked, at a point when we'd started looking more difficult to beat and had just got a deserved draw at Man City. We're currently 13 points adrift.
Allardyce wasn't brought in to preside over our relegation, he was appointed in a desperate attempt to keep us up. As such, that desperate act has demonstrably failed, regardless of how realistic our expectation of survival was.
If the Board had no expectation of staying up, they should either have kept Bilic on or made the longer term appointment that's now being mooted, with the new incumbent being given chance to experiment and gain experience with no pressure regarding results. That they didn't do either of those things implies that they thought there was a viable chance of survival and mistakenly believed that Allardyce could achieve that.
Have tried many times but have never put it so well as Boinging and Worcester. Would add though that other than the low level of investment, the lcd in most of what has been at fault is Dowling.
I never had any faith in Allardyce as our manager. However I have since revised my opinion somewhat regarding his managerial style etc. I now have real concerns about the club's ability to find a successor who will improve on what we have within our existing financial constraints.
In my perfect little Albion world we would be able to retain the services of a motivated MP, get untold millions for SJ, and spend it on effective prem quality midfield enforcer aka Yokuslu, and another intelligent advanced midfielder( Krovi style) to link with MP. Another half decent basically capable keeper would improve what we have defensively, and up top a 15-20 goals a season line leader would be found. All this would be managed to play attractive football and generally always have the belief and ability to score more than the opposition.
Ah well I can but dream, and remember the times when we were closer to this ideal before the corrupt private interest corporations formed the greed league.
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Basically, whatever, meh, hey-ho. Next!!
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We were 3 points adrift after 13 games. Before dismissing the argument as entirely invalid, do you want to extrapolate that across a full season and then compare it to how many points adrift we are now? Allardyce also contrived to make the average goals conceded per game for the remainder of the season worse than it had been for the first 13 games. Some improvement...
Anyway, he's going so I'm not wasting any more cyber-breath on him. Let him start his much-needed holiday next week, having worked for 6 months in the past 3 years!
Quite right. As with all new managers, he should have walked in here and immediately been able to sign the players we needed, flawlessly implement his own tactical thoughts and improve the fitness of the players so that they could actually run for 90 minutes. I cannot believe it took him a 8 weeks and a transfer window to do this.
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Quite right. As with all new managers, he should have walked in here and immediately been able to sign the players we needed, flawlessly implement his own tactical thoughts and improve the fitness of the players so that they could actually run for 90 minutes. I cannot believe it took him a 8 weeks and a transfer window to do this.
Who do you expect him to sign in December?
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Quite right. As with all new managers, he should have walked in here and immediately been able to sign the players we needed, flawlessly implement his own tactical thoughts and improve the fitness of the players so that they could actually run for 90 minutes. I cannot believe it took him a 8 weeks and a transfer window to do this.
6games and counting without a win at a time when wins were paramount with his signings suggest to me that he was nowhere living up to his reputation and in terms of staying up we were as far away as we’d ever been
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Not to get too side tracked but your memory is flawed. The Man City result did not come out of the blue at all. It followed on from a narrow defeat by Newcastle, a drubbing by Palace (but only after we went down to 10 men. Chelsea suffered a similar drubbing by us in similar circumstances), and before that, a run of 7 matches where we only conceded 7 goals. Hardly cannon fodder.
Of course it is Tim.
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Not to get too side tracked but your memory is flawed. The Man City result did not come out of the blue at all. It followed on from a narrow defeat by Newcastle, a drubbing by Palace (but only after we went down to 10 men. Chelsea suffered a similar drubbing by us in similar circumstances), and before that, a run of 7 matches where we only conceded 7 goals. Hardly cannon fodder.
Newcastle away was one of our worst performances under Bilic IMO , woeful . I said at the time he should have been sacked then , instead we got the Man City / Bilic / Allardyce show which was a shambles to Bilic and made the club look awful .
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As Allardyce's career managerial win percentage is 38.93% compared to Pardew's 41.13% (ignoring caretaker/international roles - source: Wikipedia), I'm not sure on what basis you're claiming that Allardyce is a damn sight better than Pardew?
Well simply, because he is.
Its such an arbitrary statistic to focus on win percentages.
The win percentages do not take into account that Pardew spent 248 games as a manager outside of the PL including stints in league one, where you would expect him to win more games and therefore boost his win % ::)
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Who do you expect him to sign in December?
That's the point.
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Well simply, because he is.
Its such an arbitrary statistic to focus on win percentages.
The win percentages do not take into account that Pardew spent 248 games as a manager outside of the PL including stints in league one, where you would expect him to win more games and therefore boost his win % ::)
Allardyce has now put us in a worst position than when we had Bilic and also his achievement at Albion was terrible to say the least. 25 games, 4 wins, 8 draws giving us 20 points, win % of 16%. Multiply that up to a full season would give us 30 points.
On top of that he brought in temporary solutions who were never going to stop with us past this season even if we had survived.
We are now in a position with no manager and knowing Albion it will probably be July before one is appointed. When any settled manager would be looking at July at getting new signings in. So now we will be racing against the clock to get signings in when some could become panic buys like Grant.
If the board were going to sack Bilic they should have took the time to get a long term in to replace him. If Sam is so concerned of not carrying on because he feels we need a long term replacement , why didn't he say that when he was offered the job !!
The team that started against West Ham only 6 will be here next season, 4 defenders, Phillips and Kanu. We have now got to rebuild the team again. Under Bilic we would have still got relegated but had a settled team to have a good crack at the Championship. A bit like Norwich have done. But now I see us more of a Stoke situation.
No the real reason Sam left is that he knew we weren't good enough to get promoted next season. Its too much of a rebuilding job.
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That's the point.
Nobody expected him to come in and make us defensively weaker for crucial games.
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what wcould be a worse situation
- Relegated
No manager,
No senior coaches
7 players out of contract
3 loanees going back
Apparently Planning to employ the only 1 less successful manager this season
Junior players not getting a look in
2 most expensive players not played a full game this year
Whoever has presided over this 5hitefest MUST be sacked, or, is simply bad luck?
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Whoever has presided over this 5hitefest MUST be sacked, or, is simply bad luck?
Hmmmm who could that be?
Just watched Big Sam's post match interview again and as someone else has already said, it IS moving. He'd come here and I didn't want it but despite the results just not happening, I did warm to him and got to be honest even though I've had the odd pop at him I'm sorry he's gone. He really did sound very sad to be going. Best of luck to him.
However, if we don't get rid of Dowling we are just going to hobble from one bad decision to another.
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Well Big Sam is a black country man he apparently always wanted to manage us. He has his effort but as Sam is probably wise enough to realise Dowling is not going to help him so that amongst other things forced him away. Big Sam I guess fell out maybe or saw the board and him were going to end up like Bilic so he left hope the best for him, thanks for Wolves and Chelsea
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what wcould be a worse situation
- Relegated
No manager,
No senior coaches
7 players out of contract
3 loanees going back
Apparently Planning to employ the only 1 less successful manager this season
Junior players not getting a look in
2 most expensive players not played a full game this year
Whoever has presided over this 5hitefest MUST be sacked, or, is simply bad luck?
why is it that our youngsters can't get a look in with the coaches we employ? Thought Darren would do it but he went down the oap route. Bilic to a degree gave some of our kids a game, Allardyce only trusted O'Shea but hung him out to dry on two occasions when his tactics weren't working. That's why I'm routing for Lampard who is willing to give youth a chance.
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why is it that our youngsters can't get a look in with the coaches we employ? Thought Darren would do it but he went down the oap route. Bilic to a degree gave some of our kids a game, Allardyce only trusted O'Shea but hung him out to dry on two occasions when his tactics weren't working. That's why I'm routing for Lampard who is willing to give youth a chance.
Because of the lifespan of a manager these days probably.
It’s too much of a risk, if someone come in and tried to blood 3 or 4 youngsters in over a number of months and it turned out they weren’t up to it everyone would be calling for them to be sacked if we were lower half of the table at November.
Why would they risk it really when they can sign players who are already tried and tested?
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The best thing to happen last Saturday after the 1-3 defeat to West Ham was for Allardyce to announce he was not continuing his career at Albion.
Hallelujah, thank the Lord!
As many on this site have stated, Allardyce’s record is exponentially worse than that of Slavan Bilic and, in spite of that, I find it remarkable that so many contributors on this site wanted a ‘failure’ to continue guiding our club further into the obscurity of the Championship in which I fear, under the current club structure, we will languish for several seasons if not longer.
Bilic was ignominiously sacked for being three points adrift of safety.
Allardyce is hailed a hero when announcing his voluntary departure thirteen points from safety and statistically worse results than Pardew.
It is my belief that had the club continued with Bilic rather than the panic introduction of a ‘never has been’ we might have still been relegated but made a better fist of attempting to avoid the dreaded drop.
Who knows, Bilic may have brought in Yokuslu and, god forbid, ‘Diagne the Disaster’ as they would have been on the club radar and given the Bilic/Player relationship, Krovinovic may well have still been with us and a most useful addition to have available when in the Championship.
Someone on this site’s personal motto is “Just loving the Championship†which I have to agree. Far more entertaining, far fairer financially, no VAR etc etc BUT, do not believe for one second we will walk to the league title and get instant promotion.
Many have said that and ended up in League One - look at Leeds, Sunderland, Bolton. Just rejoice - Allardyce is off !
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Gutted when I heard the news as I thought we were nailed on top 2 next year with him, and with the business required over the summer had faith he would address the gaps in the squad.
Ultimately we weren’t good enough but I believe Sam got the best out of our squad and gave us a basis to try and get as many points as possible. A back four of Furlong, Ajayi, Bartley, Townsend is going to be tough to get clean sheets out of at Prem level and basic errors occurred virtually every game.
The reality is our best performances this year came under Sam and the January business helped us a lot, as a collective way off staying up if we’re honest despite upturn in performances.
Good luck Sam for the future.
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Allardyce is history. We have to move on.
We had a rotten squad. We tried to appoint someone who might be able to get a tune out of it. He at best only partially succeeded.
I would have preferred him to have stayed because I suspect he’s a lot better than what we may have lined up.
But it’s better he goes if he doesn’t want the role.
The fundamental issue all along is the poor squad created by a combination of limited resources and rotten recruitment. I don’t believe anyone could have saved us, or done a great deal better.
But raking over the coals about Allardyce won’t really help now. We are in a mess and it will need much better decisions to be made in the coming months if we’re to be back in the EPL anytime soon.
There is nothing to rejoice. The track record doesn’t inspire confidence.
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With Nuno leaving Wolves, I wonder if Sam will end up at his beloved Wolves. Perhaps thats the real reason he didn't want to stay with us because he was part of a shady deal at Wolves.
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With Nuno leaving Wolves, I wonder if Sam will end up at his beloved Wolves. Perhaps thats the real reason he didn't want to stay with us because he was part of a shady deal at Wolves.
Nah, Mendes Wolves will go for another Portugese manager. Sam will be waiting to take Watford over about Christmas time, wrangle himself another 7 figure staying up bonus and hope he hits it. Pretty good going that he only has to work 6 months a year.
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The team that started against West Ham only 6 will be here next season, 4 defenders, Phillips and Kanu. We have now got to rebuild the team again. Under Bilic we would have still got relegated but had a settled team to have a good crack at the Championship. A bit like Norwich have done. But now I see us more of a Stoke situation.
This is spot on and the exact reason I was fuming when we pulled the trigger on Bilic, after he hadn't been given the tools to build a premiership quality squad.
BTW the only thing I don't agree with you about is Allardyce's motive for leaving. He considers himself a premiership manager and doesn't want to waste what time he had left in the game managing in the championship, that's why he has walked. I was listening to an interview from a while back with him where he talked through his managerial career and he explained that he felt he belongs in the premiership and has already done his service working his way up the football ladder at Blackpool. Notts County and Bolton in the lower leagues. Pretty obvious to me, he is just not willing to manager in the second division of English football. He'll have some time in Marbella Villa now until the next Premiership club in the bottom eight panic sack their manager and come calling.
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It was interesting see him upset in his interview. He wasn't upset when we were confirmed relegated and all his complaints were about how people treated him.
He wasn't upset to be leaving Albion, nor upset we were relegated, he was upset because his ego took a battering.
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Very disappointed to see Sam go . The comments that we were only 3 points adrift under Slav are factually correct , however as we were barely averaging 0.5 points a game we were only heading one way and that was down . As for comments attacking Mbaye all I will say is that Slav put his faith in Grant and his sum contribution this season is one goal !
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It was interesting see him upset in his interview. He wasn't upset when we were confirmed relegated and all his complaints were about how people treated him.
He wasn't upset to be leaving Albion, nor upset we were relegated, he was upset because his ego took a battering.
I hadn't thought of it like that but seems pretty plausible.
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I saw the interview and I though alardyce was genuinely devastated. It could be his health is not good enough to go through two seasons of this. Time will tell but I would not be surprised if he never coached again.
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I saw the interview and I though alardyce was genuinely devastated. It could be his health is not good enough to go through two seasons of this. Time will tell but I would not be surprised if he never coached again.
I think you may well be right. We sometimes forget that he had heart surgery a few years ago, at aged 55 I believe, and although he returned to work soon after, he is not getting any younger and if he has an existing heart condition, the stress and strain of management wont help the condition and he is sensible enough to recognise and realise that
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Impact has not been great. No great loss in the grand scheme of things.
Just looks to defend deep and soak up pressure, waiting to go 1 behind.
Somehow Bilic managed an average of 42% possession, a more positive outlook maybe?
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One's gone and the other one will be following shortly.
That's it really.
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Allardyce time is ending the way it started, terribly.
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Allardyce time is ending the way it started, terribly.
If you solely base things on results his tenure has been so poor. We had a run of games we needed to win and we lost to Sheff Utd, Palace Drew with Fulham, Burnley, Newcastle and beat Brighton we then had a brief blip of chelsea and Soton. We then had a run in of "cup finals" and here's the results.
Leicester L
Villa D
Wolves D
Arsenal L
Liverpool L
West Ham L
Leeds L...
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Thanks for nothing Allardyce.
A complete waste of six months that has achieved nothing whatsoever.
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If you solely base things on results his tenure has been so poor. We had a run of games we needed to win and we lost to Sheff Utd, Palace Drew with Fulham, Burnley, Newcastle and beat Brighton we then had a brief blip of chelsea and Soton. We then had a run in of "cup finals" and here's the results.
Leicester L
Villa D
Wolves D
Arsenal L
Liverpool L
West Ham L
Leeds L...
It's clearly petered out after we threw away 4 points in the 2 derbies. Overall it was worth making the change. Mainly because Bilic was dead in the water.
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It's clearly petered out after we threw away 4 points in the 2 derbies. Overall it was worth making the change. Mainly because Bilic was dead in the water.
I wasn't advocating keeping Bilic and could see a change was needed but if its based solely on results (including losing to blackpool) Sam's tenure hasn't been great.
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It's clearly petered out after we threw away 4 points in the 2 derbies. Overall it was worth making the change. Mainly because Bilic was dead in the water.
I disagree, once the club decided Bilic was going to be sacked they should have taken a long term view.
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I think you may well be right. We sometimes forget that he had heart surgery a few years ago, at aged 55 I believe, and although he returned to work soon after, he is not getting any younger and if he has an existing heart condition, the stress and strain of management wont help the condition and he is sensible enough to recognise and realise that
Bit he's prepared to work short term for possible massive rewards. Nothing but a mercenary !
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I disagree, once the club decided Bilic was going to be sacked they should have taken a long term view.
They (the Chinese investors) literally can't afford to. The entire thing will now be geared towards an immediate return.
Once they leave, I fully agree with you.
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Fully agree with you Jacko, Big Sam talked about us needing someone long term, does this hint that potential a change of ownership is imminent.
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Fully agree with you Jacko, Big Sam talked about us needing someone long term, does this hint that potential a change of ownership is imminent.
We can only hope and pray
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League record: P25 W4 D7 L14 F25 A49 Pts19
Win percentage: 16% (third worst of all time by a non-caretaker Albion manager)
Average points per game: 0.76
Average goals conceded per game: 1.96
Points from safety: 13 (arguably 14)
FA Cup: knocked out in Round 3 by Blackpool
Thank you (for very little) and goodnight.
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After today I'm glad hes gone. For a time he did improve us. But we never looked like winning enough games.
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Fully agree with you Jacko, Big Sam talked about us needing someone long term, does this hint that potential a change of ownership is imminent.
I know Sam has an ego, but club ownership would never be something he would hint at. He clearly meant his replacement.
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I just think it's absolutely shocking that a manager with a proven record of avoiding relegation was appointed in the first place. It's almost as though our owners wanted to stay in the Premier League at all costs. I have no idea what governed their thinking....
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I just think it's absolutely shocking that a manager with a proven record of avoiding relegation was appointed in the first place. It's almost as though our owners wanted to stay in the Premier League at all costs. I have no idea what governed their thinking....
I’d suggest had they genuinely wanted to stay in the premier league they would have shown some ambition preseason.
Allardyce was always going to be a short term appointment with little hope of us staying up.
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I just think it's absolutely shocking that a manager with a proven record of avoiding relegation was appointed in the first place. It's almost as though our owners wanted to stay in the Premier League at all costs. I have no idea what governed their thinking....
As we found out under Pulis, not being relegated from the Premier League is no guarantee it'll carry on happening forever.
The key thing for me is that it was a manager entirely unsuited to this squad. If it was after Pulis then I think Sam would have been ideal. With this defence and squad, just no. We needed to keep the ball as far away from the defenders and keeper as possible, not invite teams onto us.
We needed players like Pierera, Robinson, Diangana, Phillips to be getting possession in the opposition's final third, not in our final third.
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As we found out under Pulis, not being relegated from the Premier League is no guarantee it'll carry on happening forever.
The key thing for me is that it was a manager entirely unsuited to this squad. If it was after Pulis then I think Sam would have been ideal. With this defence and squad, just no. We needed to keep the ball as far away from the defenders and keeper as possible, not invite teams onto us.
We needed players like Pierera, Robinson, Diangana, Phillips to be getting possession in the opposition's final third, not in our final third.
You keep saying this, who is getting the ball to these players, and who is getting it back when they inevitably lose it? We haven't got the players to go toe to toe with other PL teams. Allardyce had the right idea and we've just not been good enough at BOTH ends of the pitch. At times the players weren't brave enough in the key games but from February onwards I can't fault the effort.
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Possession stats were down. Whether that was intentional from SA I don't know? In this division we just invite pressure in games. It's like the players think we're not worthy of being on this stage, psychological issue.
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Possession stats were down. Whether that was intentional from SA I don't know? In this division we just invite pressure in games. It's like the players think we're not worthy of being on this stage, psychological issue.
With a more possession based game (a magnificent 42%) we were getting overrun on the turnover and it was yielding a shade over half a point a game.
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Viewed in isolation, Allardyce's stats weren't good enough. We never looked like staying up, yet when he got the job the deficit to 17th was low single figures. To finish 13 points off is an absolute failure.
On that basis alone, I'm glad we aren't continuing with him in charge.
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You keep saying this, who is getting the ball to these players, and who is getting it back when they inevitably lose it? We haven't got the players to go toe to toe with other PL teams. Allardyce had the right idea and we've just not been good enough at BOTH ends of the pitch. At times the players weren't brave enough in the key games but from February onwards I can't fault the effort.
Who said anything about going toe to toe? We don't need all 10 outfield players 35 yards from goal and not putting any pressure on the ball. We get it back in the outfield, we have two options...
1) Pick a pass amongst all the opposition while we're deep in our third of the pitch. Risky.
2) Play it long and hopefully pick up the scraps. We result in loss of possession and it comes right back.
The only other option we had was for the opposition to gift us possession or kicking it out for a goal kick or throw in or something - that would give us chance to get up the pitch and regroup.
We've tried this countless times since Sam joined and it's rarely, if ever, worked. We've looked our best when we've pressed high, forced them into mistakes, and got players forward. Just look at the amount of possession we've had in most games - when Sam arrived we started averaging 25%-28% possession, hardly any shots, no real attacking play - you're rarely going to pick up points with those kind of stats.
These tactics might have worked 10 years ago, they might even have worked 5 years ago - they don't work now. The opposition players are too good to just hope they make mistakes.
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Viewed in isolation, Allardyce's stats weren't good enough. We never looked like staying up, yet when he got the job the deficit to 17th was low single figures. To finish 13 points off is an absolute failure.
On that basis alone, I'm glad we aren't continuing with him in charge.
The other thing that's being forgotten is that early in the season we were on the end of a LOT of rotten VAR decisions that cost us points. If we'd picked just a few of those up the picture would have looked very different.
We were robbed a few times under Sam too, to be fair, but not anywhere near like those first batch of games.
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He's gone and that is the end of the matter. The change was a desperate roll of the dice it predictably did not work. He was never going to stick around once he got us relegated from a position that was challenging but not entirely hopeless
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Viewed in isolation, Allardyce's stats weren't good enough. We never looked like staying up, yet when he got the job the deficit to 17th was low single figures. To finish 13 points off is an absolute failure.
On that basis alone, I'm glad we aren't continuing with him in charge.
I think that’s fair.
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I think that’s fair.
It absolutely is. A short term, very expensive waste of time. It never looked like succeeding. Just please learn from this Albion.
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When asked in interviews whether he wants another job, he keeps answering it's not up to him. Surely, it is up to him whether he decides to accept an offer.
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When asked in interviews whether he wants another job, he keeps answering it's not up to him. Surely, it is up to him whether he decides to accept an offer.
He will take another job when a club becomes so desperate they throw money at him.
He was never going to take control once we dropped to the championship as the money isn’t there for him.
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I can get that a change was needed but it's been a disastrous outcome, never had much faith that this bunch of players were good enough to keep us up but Allardyce gave me a bit of hope that a 3 point deficit could be run down so it's bitterly disappointing to see that gap finished at 13 points from safety.
Glad it's over dust ourselves down and go again, we've done it before we'll do it again.
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Just the 2 wins from his final 12 games, no win in the last 7 (including 5 losses) and only 3 wins from 16 post the January transfer window signings coming in.
It seems he is going to leave with a fair percentage of the fan base feeling he has done a reasonable job in the circumstances, personally I feel he Is benefiting from a very generous performance review. We've never looked like challenging 17th place and in the end Sheff Utd have finished a lot closer to us than I expected.
I tend to agree with posters like Liam who feel this might be his last premier league job. The clubs who are the usual suspects seem to have exhausted the carousel of Pardew, Pulis, Allardyce and Hughes. He was out of work for a couple of years before coming here and the sides who are going up this season are generally more forward thinking. While Allardyce might be better than he gets credit for in some quarters, I'm glad that we will hopefully now see the end of the carousel managers. It's just a shame we have ended up joining that group of clubs who kept these tired managers in work rather than using more imagination.
The only positive I will say is that despite what some stats suggest, I never felt we were a long ball team under his stewardship, while the Chelsea and Southampton wins were probably two of our best top flight performances in years.
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Quite a weird spell really. He started off poorly, picked up and gave us a glimpse of hope, then reverted back to some awful football. I still don't quite know what to make of it. A few weeks ago I'd have wanted him to stay, but now I'm less inclined.
I think maybe some of his spark for the game has gone and it hasn't helped us either. At times he just didn't seem that enthusiastic.
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The man came for a pay day, couldn't enthuse the players and failed, took the cash, left, end of story.
A management equivalent of the WBA - Nicolas Anelka relationship.
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The only positive I will say is that despite what some stats suggest, I never felt we were a long ball team under his stewardship, while the Chelsea and Southampton wins were probably two of our best top flight performances in years.
I would agree that for the most part we didn't play long ball. The introduction of Yokulusu had a lot to do with that. His passes were passes not aimless humps forward. I remember SA saying Yokulusu was picked because he could pass as well as doing the ball winning bit. In fact it was only O'shea and Bartley who were whacking the ball forward on a regular basis.
However, I would still argue SA's football puts too much emphasis on defence, although to be fair, the defence was badly in need of being tightened up. It got better as it became more obvious that we had to start winning matches, meaning more players got forward in support of the forwards. Obviously, good attacking players he had available were at a premium, but even so, Pereira's creative ability was wasted too often when he was forced to play out wide. Allardyce always seemed to moan about missing 2 or 3 chances after every match, but every team misses chances. The main problem was that we didn't create enough chances, which was because we generally played too deep allowing other teams to dictate the midfield and keep us under pressure.
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I would agree that for the most part we didn't play long ball. The introduction of Yokulusu had a lot to do with that. His passes were passes not aimless humps forward. I remember SA saying Yokulusu was picked because he could pass as well as doing the ball winning bit. In fact it was only O'shea and Bartley who were whacking the ball forward on a regular basis.
However, I would still argue SA's football puts too much emphasis on defence, although to be fair, the defence was badly in need of being tightened up. It got better as it became more obvious that we had to start winning matches, meaning more players got forward in support of the forwards. Obviously, good attacking players he had available were at a premium, but even so, Pereira's creative ability was wasted too often when he was forced to play out wide. Allardyce always seemed to moan about missing 2 or 3 chances after every match, but every team misses chances. The main problem was that we didn't create enough chances, which was because we generally played too deep allowing other teams to dictate the midfield and keep us under pressure.
I agree it was not a revision to Pulis-ball. That said, Allardyce came in and refused to play to the players strengths. The team was better off on the front-foot, playing a higher line. He decided to organise them into a deep-block and set-us up in a way that killed off our wingers. That coincided with the 20-0 aggregate results at home. Things improved once he was able to bring in a few players to play to his system. Overall, some of the responsibility for that mess falls on the board for their decision to sack a manager in December and to introduce the team to a manager with a very different philosophy which was alien to their instincts, mid-campaign.
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I agree it was not a revision to Pulis-ball. That said, Allardyce came in and refused to play to the players strengths. The team was better off on the front-foot, playing a higher line. He decided to organise them into a deep-block and set-us up in a way that killed off our wingers. That coincided with the 20-0 aggregate results at home. Things improved once he was able to bring in a few players to play to his system. Overall, some of the responsibility for that mess falls on the board for their decision to sack a manager in December and to introduce the team to a manager with a very different philosophy which was alien to their instincts, mid-campaign.
I don't think this team had a best way of playing as they proved throughout the season that they just weren't good enough. I firmly believe Sam would have signed 10 new starters if he could have, that's how far we were away from a decent Premier league side.
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I don't think this team had a best way of playing as they proved throughout the season that they just weren't good enough. I firmly believe Sam would have signed 10 new starters if he could have, that's how far we were away from a decent Premier league side.
I agree with you, that no system or style was sufficient to overcome the lack of quality in the team at premiership level. It's also too easily overlooked just how difficult survival was this season. The safety mark was 40 points. For me, the sides from 10th to 17th were collectively the strongest the premiership has seen.
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I agree with you, that no system or style was sufficient to overcome the lack of quality in the team at premiership level. It's also too easily overlooked just how difficult survival was this season. The safety mark was 40 points. For me, the sides from 10th to 17th were collectively the strongest the premiership has seen.
Very strange season points-wise. Everton finished 10th with 59 points, they finished 4th with 61 points under Moyes. We finished 8th with 49 points under Clarke. Crazy. The bottom 3 being so bad and the top teams not getting their usual amount of points all contributed.
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Yeah, definitely think the bottom 3 teams giving points away like toffees has helped. Then if you look at the top all but Liverpool have bettered their points total from last year but Liverpool are 30+ pts worse off so that's helped a lot.
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Just a quick thank you to Big Sam who kick started the Southgate era.
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Just a quick thank you to Big Sam who kick started the Southgate era.
I like this ;D
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Just a quick thank you to Big Sam who kick started the Southgate era.
bet he wishes he never took that meeting like I wish the Dingle never took the coaching role.
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Sam Allardyce backs Steve Bruce to get Albion in the play-offs
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/02/15/sam-allardyce-backs-steve-bruce-to-get-albion-in-the-play-offs/
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Bruce and Allardyce are mates of course. They sometimes cruise around the Caribbean together I believe.
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Sam Allardyce blames David Moyes for ruining West Brom move for Jesse Lingard
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2022/02/16/sam-allardyce-blames-david-moyes-for-ruining-west-brom-move-for-jesse-lingard/
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Bruce and Allardyce are mates of course. They sometimes cruise around the Caribbean together I believe.
That's just a vicious rumour!
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West Brom should have appointed Chris Wilder instead - Sam Allardyce
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2022/02/15/west-brom-should-have-appointed-chris-wilder-instead-sam-allardyce/
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West Brom should have appointed Chris Wilder instead - Sam Allardyce
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2022/02/15/west-brom-should-have-appointed-chris-wilder-instead-sam-allardyce/
He weren't far wrong either..
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West Brom should have appointed Chris Wilder instead - Sam Allardyce
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2022/02/15/west-brom-should-have-appointed-chris-wilder-instead-sam-allardyce/
I really do think we'd be in pretty much the same position if we'd have got Wilder in.
He plays a very similar way to Ismael (3-4-2-1 / 3-4-3), although he is open to changing it to something like 3-5-2 if needed in a game.
He is supposed to be quite a hard task master like Val was.
I just don't see how this bunch pf players would have performed any better under a different manager playing the same way (a system they didn't like).
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I really do think we'd be in pretty much the same position if we'd have got Wilder in.
He plays a very similar way to Ismael (3-4-2-1 / 3-4-3), although he is open to changing it to something like 3-5-2 if needed in a game.
He is supposed to be quite a hard task master like Val was.
I just don't see how this bunch pf players would have performed any better under a different manager playing the same way (a system they didn't like).
Frank Lampard would have got them playing better football, within the limited capabilities of said players of course.
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I really do think we'd be in pretty much the same position if we'd have got Wilder in.
He plays a very similar way to Ismael (3-4-2-1 / 3-4-3), although he is open to changing it to something like 3-5-2 if needed in a game.
He is supposed to be quite a hard task master like Val was.
I just don't see how this bunch pf players would have performed any better under a different manager playing the same way (a system they didn't like).
I disagree, Allardyce is right - Ismael and Wilder are poles apart. One has been a manager for a long time with various promotions from all divisions including a very impressive one from the championship and then a follow up season where his team stayed up in the premier on a limited budget , whilst playing decent football and taking on teams instead of defending their way. The other was a one trick pony donkey who was sussed out by opposition managers after 6 games, had no other ideas and couldn't man manage.
I really cannot see where Ismael has earned the right to be considered in the same breath as managers who have actually achieved things?!
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I disagree, Allardyce is right - Ismael and Wilder are poles apart. One has been a manager for a long time with various promotions from all divisions including a very impressive one from the championship and then a follow up season where his team stayed up in the premier on a limited budget , whilst playing decent football and taking on teams instead of defending their way. The other was a one trick pony donkey who was sussed out by opposition managers after 6 games, had no other ideas and couldn't man manage.
I really cannot see where Ismael has earned the right to be considered in the same breath as managers who have actually achieved things?!
VI is not in Sam's league. Nowhere near.
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VI is not in Sam's league. Nowhere near.
He is not in Steve’s league either
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He is not in Steve’s league either
Bruce has been more dynamic in 2 games than VI in 25+
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While I agree - with hindsight - that we probably should have gone for Wilder, I take the rest of the interview with a huge pinch of salt.
He has said 3 or 4 different things now about staying at the Albion. First it was that the club needed to offer him guarantees of funds if he was going to stay, then he said he was just seen as a firefighter and there was no point him trying to be anything different at this stage of his career, then he said he had no plans to ever stay in the event of relegation and had been lying up until our relegation- but that Albion did promise him a decent budget - and now he is saying £2m in transfer spending power might have seen him stay when we have actually spent £7m.
Which one is it Sam?
No surprise he has backed his mate Bruce, he is always going to back one of the British merry go round clique.
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Gnat farts, all of it gnat farts. Wilder was not the chairmans choice, did not manage us. Val has come and gone and Allardyce did f all but fill his own pockets and fail to keep a far better set of players in the prem. All history, All over, and like Allardyce and anything Albion, is all gnat farts.
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I disagree, Allardyce is right - Ismael and Wilder are poles apart. One has been a manager for a long time with various promotions from all divisions including a very impressive one from the championship and then a follow up season where his team stayed up in the premier on a limited budget , whilst playing decent football and taking on teams instead of defending their way. The other was a one trick pony donkey who was sussed out by opposition managers after 6 games, had no other ideas and couldn't man manage.
I really cannot see where Ismael has earned the right to be considered in the same breath as managers who have actually achieved things?!
You completely missed the point I was making.
I was actually comparing their styles of play and our players inability/unwillingness to play that way.
I wasn't comparing them as managers.
It wasn't a criticism of Wilder, it was a criticism of our players.
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You completely missed the point I was making.
I was actually comparing their styles of play and our players inability/unwillingness to play that way.
I wasn't comparing them as managers.
It wasn't a criticism of Wilder, it was a criticism of our players.
oh right sorry! I still think Wilder would've got more out of this squad than VI did. Wilder and other managers on the merry go round have proven time and again that they can go into clubs and make a difference at least for a short time - they've won promotions, kept teams in the premier league etc.....
Big Sam is very vocal about us for some reason (maybe he wants another pay day) but there is an underlying point from someone who has been part of the football world for a long time which is that he has has struggled to understand our decision making. In other words, we really over-complicated a simple decision in the summer and are paying for it now.
Our squad is not great but it looks poorer than it should because it's been mis-managed by an in-experienced, over confident / arrogant coach in my view.
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Why are we discussing Wilder? It's not a case of missing out, he was never an option for Lai.
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Why are we discussing Wilder? It's not a case of missing out, he was never an option for Lai.
Because Allardyce mentioned him in an interview.
Sometimes it's interesting to debate "what ifs".
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Because Allardyce mentioned him in an interview.
Sometimes it's interesting to debate "what ifs".
Yes, basically Sam said we should've appointed Wilder hence the discussion on this vs VI who we did appoint. Sam was right on this point and may be right that Bruce is our best short term fix option - we'll see on that!
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Why are we discussing Wilder? It's not a case of missing out, he was never an option for Lai.
He was an option for the club, he went to 5/1 on with the bookies and reliable ITK said he was on his way until someone at the club did a very last minute U turn, so he was an option for Lai.
Pep Guardiola was never an option for Lai