Author Topic: Under 23's / Academy Thread  (Read 640306 times)

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cads_ap_albion

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1275 on: July 06, 2019, 07:11:31 AM »
Morgan Rogers is going to Man City, just while we are on the topic of academy. Almost done deal.

Depressing to hear if that happens. Thought as wba fan he would stay but again money talks. System is a farce.

However, if it is a big fee there is the justification for the academy. Berahino's fee paid for seven years worth of the academy alone. Rodgers may well do the same.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1276 on: July 06, 2019, 07:35:53 AM »
I don't know how the system works and what you can enforce as a contract on an academy player but there should be a better way of compensating the club who have invested in their development. In Wales, the NHS pays tuition fees for nurses who train at a Welsh university as long as they agree to practice in the country for at least three years after graduation. Accountancy firms used to pay training costs and exam fees for a similar deal. Perhaps academy players should be tied to the club that invests in them for so many seasons after they turn professional or a club wishing to poach them should have to pay a negotiated release fee?

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1277 on: July 06, 2019, 08:00:07 AM »
I don't know how the system works and what you can enforce as a contract on an academy player but there should be a better way of compensating the club who have invested in their development. In Wales, the NHS pays tuition fees for nurses who train at a Welsh university as long as they agree to practice in the country for at least three years after graduation. Accountancy firms used to pay training costs and exam fees for a similar deal. Perhaps academy players should be tied to the club that invests in them for so many seasons after they turn professional or a club wishing to poach them should have to pay a negotiated release fee?

In my opinion the system needs overhauling when it comes to compensation. The flat £235k or whatever it is isn't right. I personally think a fee for a youngster should be determined by a few factors with one of them being the contract they get at their new club. I saw a rumour yesterday that the young lad Barry has been offered £20k a week for five years by a club so IF that is true and he joined them then the compensation should reflect how highly his potential is clearly rated by that club given he's been nurtured from such a young age.

You can certainly see why some clubs have decided to downgrade their Academy.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 08:04:08 AM by B_H_Baggie »

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1278 on: July 06, 2019, 08:16:28 AM »
I think we'd get more than £235k if Rogers went to Man City as it's a sale to a British club. I'm not sure what the figure is but it certainly wouldn't class as good money for someone of his potential.

I don't think anything is going to change as far as some sort of enforcing academy players to stay and play a year or so for the club that's produced them.
Throughout sport now there's a general acceptance that the best talent needs to be hot-housed i.e. the best players need to train, develop and play with the best day in day out in the best facilities with the best coaching and sports science behind them. This is why it would be a brave move if someone like Barry or Rogers actually signed to stay with us for a couple of years.

The thing that can change is that the compensation levels need to generously reflect the investment in time and money that the academy club has made.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1279 on: July 06, 2019, 08:46:29 AM »
The problem is complex.

Most academies recruit from the age of 8 but the youngsters can't sign a contract until they are 16 and even here there are restrictions as to the length of contract. Other professions have training contract provisions but typically these are only signed by people who are 18 plus and these contracts have been successfully challenged where the terms have been deemed as being onerous e.g. the cost of release being greater than the cost of the training provided.

In terms of cost the academy is reported at costing £2m a year, which in the wacky world of football is relatively small beer. The cost per year of each scholar is roughly £35k, the flat rate compensation of about £220k is probably about right in that it covers off the cost of the individual youngster. However what it doesn't cover is the much bigger cost of all the academy players who drop out or are kicked out before they get a professional contract.

As ever the football authorities have to be mindful that the whole transfer fee system is built on sand. If a player was ever to challenge it in court then there is every chance that they would win and the whole thing would come crashing down. Hence they are reluctant to intervene and saddle a player with a contract clause at the age of 16 which might trigger such a challenge. Particularly as there is no existing contract between club and player.

None of this particularly helpful for us as a club.

My view is that the FA should take Youth Development away from the clubs. They should run and pay for the system even if the academies are hosted by the clubs. At that point players just go to their local academies there are no financial inducements there is no stockpiling of players as there is no advantage to be gained from moving from one academy to another. Youth football at club level starts at 16 and is governed by contract. 

They could fund this either through the compensation that is currently levied when a player signs at 16 of through a levy on transfer fees.  If they want to distribute talent evenly they could introduce a draft system like the NFL.   
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1280 on: July 06, 2019, 09:14:18 AM »
The answer surely is to stop them leaving for another academy until they have signed their first pro contract(minimum 2years)
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1281 on: July 06, 2019, 09:22:32 AM »
Some excellent posts here.

In a way, we are victims of our own success. We are producing top quality players who other clubs now covet.

Not easy to swallow when we lose the top top players like Barry and Rogers), but it shows the quality of the academy.

We should celebrate that we are producing the talent but know we will lose the top ones. Fulham are about to lose a top 16 year old to Liverpool by the way so it affects all of us, even Man City, who lose out to German clubs.

We could this year have Harper, Field, Edwards and Soule in our first team squad and all could play. To have potentially 20% of our first team generated by the academy is a huge money saving, even despite losing our two jewels.

As another positive, if lads can see that they could go to Man City or  Barcelona from little old WBA, isn't that a positive to join us in the first place. Personally feel that this fact is a major advert and reason to join our academy.

For every diamond we lose cheaply: Matt Smith, Dhanda, Brown, Barry, Rogers

We make or save money on: Berahino, Roberts, Edwards, Field, Harper, Tulloch, Roofe, Sawyers.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1282 on: July 06, 2019, 09:56:46 AM »
The answer surely is to stop them leaving for another academy until they have signed their first pro contract(minimum 2years)

I think that would be considered a restraint of trade and illegal.

But something has to be done, otherwise academies won’t be financial viable and all but the richest clubs academies will disappear to the detriment of young footballers and football in general.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1283 on: July 06, 2019, 10:06:44 AM »
Some excellent posts here.

In a way, we are victims of our own success. We are producing top quality players who other clubs now covet.

Not easy to swallow when we lose the top top players like Barry and Rogers), but it shows the quality of the academy.

We should celebrate that we are producing the talent but know we will lose the top ones. Fulham are about to lose a top 16 year old to Liverpool by the way so it affects all of us, even Man City, who lose out to German clubs.

We could this year have Harper, Field, Edwards and Soule in our first team squad and all could play. To have potentially 20% of our first team generated by the academy is a huge money saving, even despite losing our two jewels.

As another positive, if lads can see that they could go to Man City or  Barcelona from little old WBA, isn't that a positive to join us in the first place. Personally feel that this fact is a major advert and reason to join our academy.

For every diamond we lose cheaply: Matt Smith, Dhanda, Brown, Barry, Rogers

We make or save money on: Berahino, Roberts, Edwards, Field, Harper, Tulloch, Roofe, Sawyers.
For me this is an important point - attracting top local talent is a big plus for the club and will bring other players on. Too many often quite talented players get 'swallowed up' by the big teams at an early age and subsequently disappear from the game. More clubs need academies which are better without too many players in them.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1284 on: July 06, 2019, 10:32:22 AM »
Quick question is there any link to a report that confirms we are about to lose Rogers to Man City ?
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1285 on: July 06, 2019, 10:44:19 AM »
Quick question is there any link to a report that confirms we are about to lose Rogers to Man City ?
No , I asked the poster and looked myself .
Nothing.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1286 on: July 06, 2019, 10:48:54 AM »
I can understand kids having heads turned given we aren't a top flight club and the likes of Man City, Barca and PSG knocking at the door.
What I can't stomach is having these kids from 6 / 7 years old , investing 10 years in them and then they do a runner . That simply isn't right whichever way you look at it and the peanuts we get in return . I'd be very tempted to scrap the academy for what it costs per year in all honesty unless the rules change .
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1287 on: July 06, 2019, 11:03:02 AM »
I can understand kids having heads turned given we aren't a top flight club and the likes of Man City, Barca and PSG knocking at the door.
What I can't stomach is having these kids from 6 / 7 years old , investing 10 years in them and then they do a runner . That simply isn't right whichever way you look at it and the peanuts we get in return . I'd be very tempted to scrap the academy for what it costs per year in all honesty unless the rules change .

I have had my son go through academy systems and believe me it is even more cut throat than your worst thoughts. There is no hesitation to get rid of a young player no matter how long they have been with you for - why should the kids owe anything to the club? They are one tackle away from their career being over.

If the chance comes to sort your family for life it would be impossible to turn down.

To describe it as then doing a runner is hard on the kids.

One of my lad's teammates did his ACL while under a two year scholarship at the same academy as my son. The club involved would not pay his wages while he went through the year of operation and rehab. They have started paying him again now he is fit - but what is the lad supposed to live on while in rehab?

There is no loyalty from the clubs - the lads are purely £ signs. I am disappointed Barry has gone but I don't blame him.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1288 on: July 06, 2019, 11:17:24 AM »
Absolutely correct, the coaches and managers change on a regular basis, your kid stays or goes on a personal opinion: one son at an academy considered too small at 13 after 6 years at club at 21 was 6ft and 80kgs, other son was expected to go training 3 times a week with a Manchester club prohibited from playing with his own club - eventually he decided not to go anymore as the joy of playing was being eroded by being taught off ball tactics (basically how to cheat) was told he was too nice ;D

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1289 on: July 06, 2019, 11:37:01 AM »
The system is rubbish in terms of compensation but it wont change unless the power clubs in this country tried to push for it happen.

They wont do that as it stands because the system benefits them, they get to hoover up the best players from clubs across the country for very small fees (in football terms) they pick the best and cast off the rest.

Its not unlike first team football, the best players end up getting signed by the best clubs for transfer fees, with academy football its the same but just from a younger age and the transfer fee is classed as compensation and its minimal.

The only way i can see things changing is if large groups of 14,15 and 16 year olds start to leave the big clubs in this country in the same way Louis Barry seems to be, ie - going abroad and the big clubs only get £235k compensation.

I am sure it happens from time to time now but if it started happening a lot, then i think the big clubs would start to question the system because teams from abroad would be doing to them what they are doing to clubs over here, picking off the best players and potential multi millionaire assets to their clubs for tiny fees.

Until that happens (and i am not sure it even will) then i think the system is here to stay, there may be some complaints and grumbles, the fees may be upped from £235k to say £500k, but unless the big boys in this country get involved then nothing major will change.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1290 on: July 06, 2019, 12:12:51 PM »
An automatic 50% sell on clause could work. If a young player leave an academy for a big club, the sell on clause would benefit all.

Player gets the contract
New club get the best price (they are forced to as they know they have to pay 50% out)
Academy club get the 50% of the price covering costs from the academy

everyones a winner!

I personally feel if a young lad comes through the Albion academy why wouldnt you want to put on a first team shirt for the club? If it were me I would look at getting a 5 year deal at the age of 16. 3 years for you and 2 years for the club so as at the age of 19 if a big club swoops you wouldnt leave for free as you are under contract. The sell on clause would be the answer for me though.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1291 on: July 06, 2019, 12:16:07 PM »
I have had my son go through academy systems and believe me it is even more cut throat than your worst thoughts. There is no hesitation to get rid of a young player no matter how long they have been with you for - why should the kids owe anything to the club? They are one tackle away from their career being over.

If the chance comes to sort your family for life it would be impossible to turn down.

To describe it as then doing a runner is hard on the kids.

One of my lad's teammates did his ACL while under a two year scholarship at the same academy as my son. The club involved would not pay his wages while he went through the year of operation and rehab. They have started paying him again now he is fit - but what is the lad supposed to live on while in rehab?

There is no loyalty from the clubs - the lads are purely £ signs. I am disappointed Barry has gone but I don't blame him.
Doing a runner maybe wasn't the best way of making my point , my real issue is growing these kids for other clubs if you like as I posted elsewhere .
These kids have benefited from Albion training then we get our pockets picked as the works starts to blossom , again I posted understanding the offers/money but for clubs like Albion its fast becoming a pointless task .
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1292 on: July 06, 2019, 12:34:24 PM »
An automatic 50% sell on clause could work. If a young player leave an academy for a big club, the sell on clause would benefit all.

Player gets the contract
New club get the best price (they are forced to as they know they have to pay 50% out)
Academy club get the 50% of the price covering costs from the academy

everyones a winner!

I personally feel if a young lad comes through the Albion academy why wouldnt you want to put on a first team shirt for the club? If it were me I would look at getting a 5 year deal at the age of 16. 3 years for you and 2 years for the club so as at the age of 19 if a big club swoops you wouldnt leave for free as you are under contract. The sell on clause would be the answer for me though.
bet their parents were delighted when Albion came calling to train them when they were 6 7.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1293 on: July 06, 2019, 12:35:27 PM »
bet their parents were delighted when Albion came calling to train them when they were 6 7.
Mate Im sorry but I dont get your point?
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1294 on: July 06, 2019, 12:41:21 PM »
Mate Im sorry but I dont get your point?
ops wrong post to reply to sorry for the confusion.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1295 on: July 06, 2019, 07:36:29 PM »
I would like us to get O'Shea on a long term deal then get him out on loan in league one.

Jon leko needs a season playing games so he should also be out in league 1 or 2.

I think Oliver Burke and Edwards will be in and around the first team. We could probably get one of the 2 out on loan for half a season too depending on additions.

If Sam field isn't starting weekly he needs a season long loan so he doesn't regress.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1296 on: July 07, 2019, 09:41:13 AM »
I would like us to get O'Shea on a long term deal then get him out on loan in league one.

Jon leko needs a season playing games so he should also be out in league 1 or 2.

I think Oliver Burke and Edwards will be in and around the first team. We could probably get one of the 2 out on loan for half a season too depending on additions.

If Sam field isn't starting weekly he needs a season long loan so he doesn't regress.


I'd like to see O'Shea used as third or forth choice centre back here next season, (the Adarabioyo role last season if you like).

I'm hoping Slaven does trust our youngsters more next season. I think last season the club very much saw it as one crack at going straight back up so put more of an emphasis on going with experience whereas now they are talking in terms of changing our philosophy and getting promotion within two years (obviously go up this season if we can). This is an ideal time to integrate the youngsters, in the knowledge that we will be financially living more within our means and an extra season in the Championship will make no real difference to us in that regard.

I'd like to see more of Harper and Field in the middle of the park and Edwards and Burke used more amongst the front three. These players need to be given priority over the likes of Livermore and Robson-Kanu in particular.

I believe the club need to make a decision on the likes of Leko, Wilson, Fitzwater. Do they loan them out again or do they look to release them? I don't see any of them making the grade. Just my opinion, of course.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1297 on: July 07, 2019, 11:44:19 AM »
I am not convinced by the process of sending out youngsters to league 1 or 2 clubs. Plainly it provides valuable experience but I am not sure that extended exposure to the generally lower standards of the lower leagues does enough to push the players to the level they need to get to for the Championship let alone the Premier League.

The only way to achieve this is get them into the squad and get them on the pitch when opportunities arise. From that point of view I agree with Atomic in that we must be getting close to decision time on Leko and Fitzwater either in the squad or out the door I can't see the point of another loan. Wilson being slightly younger might benefit from another loan but I would prefer him to be pushed into the squad.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1298 on: July 07, 2019, 12:09:19 PM »
I am not convinced by the process of sending out youngsters to league 1 or 2 clubs. Plainly it provides valuable experience but I am not sure that extended exposure to the generally lower standards of the lower leagues does enough to push the players to the level they need to get to for the Championship let alone the Premier League.

The only way to achieve this is get them into the squad and get them on the pitch when opportunities arise. From that point of view I agree with Atomic in that we must be getting close to decision time on Leko and Fitzwater either in the squad or out the door I can't see the point of another loan. Wilson being slightly younger might benefit from another loan but I would prefer him to be pushed into the squad.
Agree.
Wilson could be our 2nd choice right back and the coaching staff can monitoring his progress closely.
It would be good news for both sides if he can step up, if not then we can loan him back to lower league in 2nd half season.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #1299 on: July 07, 2019, 01:02:40 PM »
Morgan Rogers scored yesterday against Telford. Apparently it was a stunner.

Be good if he can be involved this year at some point. Seems some talent.
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