[ashdoy]

owner never invested in first team so we have still got Pulis type players who especially at back our not comfortable on ball and can't pass wind

So by that theory, we should have just kept Pulis.

[Mo]

Listening to D.M on the radio after the match, he said he was delighted with a point, Well i wasn't and I am told that the penalty award was a "joke" but I have not had the chance to see the replay yet. I do know that Sam Johnstone mad an excellent save to keep us in the game at 1-2 , so it is easy to see that we could have quite easily lost the game 3-1. I really do not know what the plan was tonight, but it fell apart after five minutes, and there did not appear to be a plan B.

We also let them in down our right side after we had equalised for a second time and then contrived to almost let their player go clean thorough on goal in the dying seconds resulting in a booking for Dawson. Moore said they were tired but there is no excuse for a lack of basic organisation .

[Fritzl Palace]

I gave up listening to his press conferences a long time ago, they provide no insights whatsoever, just the same trodden out cliches.

[LiamTheBaggie]

I see familiar faces have returned - it was lonely on Saturday without you... 

[Fritzl Palace]

I see familiar faces have returned - it was lonely on Saturday without you... 

Strangely enough I was still around on Saturday 

[Albion79]

I think Big Dave was very clever in switching our setup to a 4-3-3 ahead of the Leeds game, however since that game at the start of November we have won one home league match which was against Wigan.

I think the 4-3-3 is fine when we play away as the onus is on the home side to come at us a bit, we then pick them off. Its professional and workman like as we saw with the wins at Bolton and Stoke, but we miss the magic of Barnes.

However the home setup has to change, one win in the last 7 at home in the league now says that this formation and approach isnt working. Pretty much every team we have played since the Leeds game at home has come to defend and get everybody behind the ball (Villa and Norwich were possibly the exception, Villa should of won and we should of beat Norwich)

Teams have wised up, at the start of the season both QPR and Bristol City come to have a go and we took them apart, along with pretty comfortable wins v Stoke, Millwall and Reading, teams are wise and they know with our attacking players (especially when we had Barnes) we would take them apart so the are now getting everyone behind the ball, happy to keep it 0-0, frustrate the crowd and try a nick a goal so when we gift them goals like we did v Middlesbrough and Forest, they wont believe their luck.

At the moment we are very predictable at home, there isnt that spark or flair, We are missing Barnes and Phillips but Barnes has gone for good and Phillips does tend to be injured a lot then take a few games to get upto speed so if i was Moore i would be planning without him and treat him as a bonus when he does come back.

If i was Moore now i would be going back to a 3-5-2 at home with Hegazi, Dawson and Livermore at the back. The reason for Livermore is when he has time on the ball he can use it well, as we have seen most teams are happy to let us have it so i would have him as the ball player at the back, the one who passes it around and who can carry it forward into midfield for attacks. Tosin or Holgate can also play as one of the three centre halves as no doubt we will get injuries and suspensions.

I would have Holgate at right wing back with Murphy able to play there and Gibbs and on the other side (and Montero and Brunt able to play there) with how teams setup against our wing backs are going to be pretty much wingers anyway.

Have Barry (and Field) in the defensive midfield role with Johansen (and Harper) as the box to box midfielder. In the attacking midfield free role (between the midfield and attack) i would have Hoolahan (Phillips if he is fit) with maybe Montero being able to play there. (I would say Morrison but he doesnt even make the squads at the moment so not sure how bad his injury is)

Upfront play Jrod and Gayle as a partnership with HRK, Montero and Murphy all able to play there too.

Sounds very football manager i know but to me that plays to our strengths when teams setup to defend, home or away, and we have the option of 4-3-3 for teams who come at us a bit.

[SmethDan]

Strangely enough I was still around on Saturday 

Dare I say this but I think you may need to get out a  little more chap.

There's pubs, restaurants and many other places to be of a Saturday night   .

[Fritzl Palace]

Dare I say this but I think you may need to get out a  little more chap.

There's pubs, restaurants and many other places to be of a Saturday night   .

Not sure they would appreciate me giving my constructive criticism of their menu 

[baggiebof]

Interesting post Albion79, I have been saying for a while that I don't think this way of playing is working at home. The return to 3412 could work however I'd play it differently personnel wise to what you've suggested above - I think you'd want Phillips and Gibbs as wing-backs as they were such a threat earlier in the season.

I actually think tweaking the current 433 would be beneficial. We currently play with a deep centre forward and two wide forwards that stay up. I'd play the centre forward more orthodox and asked to stay high, lead the line and look to get in behind and give the wide players the freedom to drift inside into the no.10 positions or stay wide as suits. I think this would give us more outlets on the ball and make us rely on playing through the deep lying pivot in midfield so much as teams are coming to The Hawthorns and have worked us out: they press with 4 men high and the back 4 and two central midfielders just sit deep. It negates the space for the wide forwards and gives them a chance of turning the ball over high and scoring - as happened last night and vs Boro. With everyone available, I'd play it like this at home:

Johnstone

Holgate
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Harper
Barry
Johansen

Murphy
Gayle
Phillips

What I will say about Moore is, although he is sometimes slow to change things, he does usually get to the right answer, be it a tactical change or personnel change. We must remember, he has to manage a squad of players and look after players confidence as well as morale within the squad. He does this by being loyal and fair to players so although things are obviously not working, he rarely just shunts somebody out into the cold or change it immediately, he gives things a chance and is a bit more 'fair' which fits into his mantra and culture he tries to implement. I'm hopeful that in the next home game he will tweak it as it needs to happen before we run out of games.

[Atomic]

I think Big Dave was very clever in switching our setup to a 4-3-3 ahead of the Leeds game, however since that game at the start of November we have won one home league match which was against Wigan.

I think the 4-3-3 is fine when we play away as the onus is on the home side to come at us a bit, we then pick them off. Its professional and workman like as we saw with the wins at Bolton and Stoke, but we miss the magic of Barnes.

However the home setup has to change, one win in the last 7 at home in the league now says that this formation and approach isnt working. Pretty much every team we have played since the Leeds game at home has come to defend and get everybody behind the ball (Villa and Norwich were possibly the exception, Villa should of won and we should of beat Norwich)

Teams have wised up, at the start of the season both QPR and Bristol City come to have a go and we took them apart, along with pretty comfortable wins v Stoke, Millwall and Reading, teams are wise and they know with our attacking players (especially when we had Barnes) we would take them apart so the are now getting everyone behind the ball, happy to keep it 0-0, frustrate the crowd and try a nick a goal so when we gift them goals like we did v Middlesbrough and Forest, they wont believe their luck.

At the moment we are very predictable at home, there isnt that spark or flair, We are missing Barnes and Phillips but Barnes has gone for good and Phillips does tend to be injured a lot then take a few games to get upto speed so if i was Moore i would be planning without him and treat him as a bonus when he does come back.

If i was Moore now i would be going back to a 3-5-2 at home with Hegazi, Dawson and Livermore at the back. The reason for Livermore is when he has time on the ball he can use it well, as we have seen most teams are happy to let us have it so i would have him as the ball player at the back, the one who passes it around and who can carry it forward into midfield for attacks. Tosin or Holgate can also play as one of the three centre halves as no doubt we will get injuries and suspensions.

I would have Holgate at right wing back with Murphy able to play there and Gibbs and on the other side (and Montero and Brunt able to play there) with how teams setup against our wing backs are going to be pretty much wingers anyway.

Have Barry (and Field) in the defensive midfield role with Johansen (and Harper) as the box to box midfielder. In the attacking midfield free role (between the midfield and attack) i would have Hoolahan (Phillips if he is fit) with maybe Montero being able to play there. (I would say Morrison but he doesnt even make the squads at the moment so not sure how bad his injury is)

Upfront play Jrod and Gayle as a partnership with HRK, Montero and Murphy all able to play there too.

Sounds very football manager i know but to me that plays to our strengths when teams setup to defend, home or away, and we have the option of 4-3-3 for teams who come at us a bit.

It's not the 4-3-3 that's the problem. The biggest problem we have at the moment is we keep giving teams a goal start with stupid decision making at the back.

I do agree we need a plan B though because whatever system you play by default you have to make adjustments at times to suit the circumstances. Maybe a diamond system may be worth looking at on certain occasions:


                                     Johnstone

Holgate           Daws / Tosin             Hegazi                Gibbs

                                     Barry

                      Harper                      Johansen

                                    Phillips

                      Rodriguez                  Gayle


It's a way of making sure we retain numbers in midfield so we don't get over-run with the two in the middle and a way of getting Gayle through the middle alongside Rodriguez.

You can argue that the system lacks width but we have marauding full backs so that shouldn't be a problem.

[we8seals]

Was clear to everyone apart from our management team that 433 was not going to work against the system Forest employed against us. (Particularly with the personnel we had). 5
352 - 442 - 4321 would all have given us a better chance. As would a member of front three with a physical presence!

Our home record is abysmal and getting worse - the fewest clean sheets at home of anyone in the league says it all. We have to be more flexible at home - we are being out coached as much as outplayed

[Windmill Baggy]

It's not the 4-3-3 that's the problem. The biggest problem we have at the moment is we keep giving teams a goal start with stupid decision making at the back.

I do agree we need a plan B though because whatever system you play by default you have to make adjustments at times to suit the circumstances. Maybe a diamond system may be worth looking at on certain occasions:


                                     Johnstone

Holgate           Daws / Tosin             Hegazi                Gibbs

                                     Barry

                      Harper                      Johansen

                                    Phillips

                      Rodriguez                  Gayle


It's a way of making sure we retain numbers in midfield so we don't get over-run with the two in the middle and a way of getting Gayle through the middle alongside Rodriguez.

You can argue that the system lacks width but we have marauding full backs so that shouldn't be a problem.

I also think the 4-3-3 isn't suiting us any more. I think the team you've picked here is our best line-up. This would also allow us to have Murphy and Montero as options off the bench should we need the extra pace in the closing stages of games. Kanu, Brunt, Livermore and Bartley would be the other subs.

[boinging_along]

I'd agree with the side above.

[SmethDan]

Not sure they would appreciate me giving my constructive criticism of their menu 

Go on give it a go,  I  do that all the time and and it only usually ever ends up in a row  .

[Fritzl Palace]

Go on give it a go,  I  do that all the time and and it only usually ever ends up in a row  .

I'm a lover not a fighter, Dan 

[liverbaggie]

I didn't see the so called dive,I'm glad we got the pen and the point,keeps us ticking over because with our squad I would like to think it will hopefully click into a team.
No one mentioned yet about the deliberate and obvious time wasting from forest ref very poor.
We didn't press them high enough if we had we would have easily win it their defence was so poor.
Livermore and Johansen playing like defenders far too deep terrified to go over the halfway line,missed hegazi,what did tosin  do all night faffing about he's like a spider with that ball.
A poor display overall,highlight for me was the appreciation for our ex player.
By the way,I thought the bre was strangely quiet mostly,

[iwastherein68]

The form of Rekeem Harper must be making DM cringe with embarassment at his lack of faith in him. Mind you, he may have to make way for Brunt on Saturday if he is fit.
In all seriousness if this kid does not sign a contract, somebody needs to be sacked.

[FallOutBoy]

I don't think playing out from the back is a bad way to go - some of my happiest times as an Albion fan were under Mowbray, where we did it constantly. But these players can't do it. They just don't get it. They make passes that go nowhere, do nothing to create attacks, and then they make bad passes that play each other into trouble. They can't be talking to each other either, because last night there were times when only the crowd was shouting 'man on'. If he wanted to change the culture, he had to change more players. Keeping last seasons squad together isn't helping him.

Then you have another substitution made as we are defending a set piece, leading to another goal conceded. I desperately want Moore to be a success, but it's becoming harder and harder to defend him as he continues to make the same mistakes.

3 home wins in 12 games (all competitions) tells its own story.

[seteefeet]

I think we have hit another crunch time now. Similar to the death throes of 352, the 433 is now not working very well, which granted is mainly down to the loss of Barnes and Phillips but, as neither will be returning anytime soon, we need a change.

Whatever that change is, whether 451 or even a return to 352, Moore needs to act quickly as our home form is becoming embarrassing.

Thankfully, we are still in and around the top 2 so it's not too late, but we do need to kick on now as it will go right to the wire.

I have been impressed with his subs though over the last 2 games, he has acted timely and got them mostly bang on. Last night, Livermore was not just poor but actually a bit of a liability, but there was a time where Moore would have stuck with him, instead he acted and got him off and we looked far better with Barry on the field.

If last night highlighted anything though, it was the weakness in our squad. Livermore, Dawson, Gibbs, Rodriguez and Gayle, all highly cossetted by some, were all poor. Add to that, the new signings Murphy and, to a lesser extent, Johanson were no better and it shows how important it is to find a system that plays to their strengths rather than highlighting their many frailties.

Business end of the season is fast approaching and all sides will be feeling the strain, we need to re-group and come out all guns blazing, starting on Saturday!!!

[OldburyWBA]

The form of Rekeem Harper must be making DM cringe with embarassment at his lack of faith in him. Mind you, he may have to make way for Brunt on Saturday if he is fit.
In all seriousness if this kid does not sign a contract, somebody needs to be sacked.

That would be a disgrace if it happens. Harper who puts his foot in and can pass a ball and is growing with each game or Brunt who cannot tackle and his hopeful balls are just that these days, hopeful. Barry, Harper and Johansen would be ideal.

[paulosull]

So by that theory, we should have just kept Pulis.

uh no owner should have invested in player's who would suit the style of play coach envisages 

[stoxman]

What I (and I’m sure others) struggle to understand is the suicidal defending given the resources we have.  We have:

-Two prem full backs. Easily too good for the Championship
-Dawson who is admired in the Premier, Hegazi who one his day is great, Tosin who is regarded as one of Man City’s gems
-A keeper who the Villa fans were desperate to keep
-A manager who, whilst not the most elegant of defenders, was the perfect Championship defender and who also “benefited” from seeing Pulis defensive coaching first hand
-A first team coach who worked with probably the best defensive national team

How does this lot come together to form a mess that needs to score 3 goals to win a game???

[liverbaggie]

This was a typical game that we had need for a big guy up front because the two animals forest had in CD were hopeless when pressed and hoofed it anywhere,have we got one?

[TheJacko2000]

What I (and I’m sure others) struggle to understand is the suicidal defending given the resources we have.  We have:

-Two prem full backs. Easily too good for the Championship
-Dawson who is admired in the Premier, Hegazi who one his day is great, Tosin who is regarded as one of Man City’s gems
-A keeper who the Villa fans were desperate to keep
-A manager who, whilst not the most elegant of defenders, was the perfect Championship defender and who also “benefited” from seeing Pulis defensive coaching first hand
-A first team coach who worked with probably the best defensive national team

How does this lot come together to form a mess that needs to score 3 goals to win a game???

- Holgate is a centre back. Gibbs I agree.
- Dawson in 5 Premier League seasons could never hold down a regular place as a Central Defender, and imo would have drifted down the leagues if we had virtually any other head coach.
- When you look at Guzan, Nyland etc. He's probably not that bad. Problem we've got is he hardly saves anything on target (penalties aside) {in fact thinking about we'd have great Special Teams, J Rod on to score pens, Johnstone to save them}
- Mowbray was as no nonsense a defender as you'll ever see.
- Not sure any team coached by Bobby Martinez is defensively sound.


Aside from these points, I am also totally baffled why we continue to suicidally pass between the keeper, the back 2 or 3 and the pivot. 

[Pureade1]

Darren Moore is the head coach and is not responsible for player recruitment, i am sure he has a say of course but with this little idiot that owns us we will always have one hand tied behind our back.

Ive said on other threads that if we dont go up we are in big trouble next season as Lai has no intention of allowing the club to spend money he is trying to recouperate his losses as right now he looks foolish for buying a business and letting it depreciate in value so much, one thing the chinese dont like is looking foolish.

Fact is big dave has got us to 4th in the table with an assortment of players most of whom wont be here next season if we dont go up. Footballers are notoriously fickle so whilst yes he has some shortfalls (tactically he has alot to learn for example) lets be aware of what he has actually done.

Bigger question to all those saying he isnt up to the job? Who else would want to manage us with an owner spending no money and a fanbase that expects to be fighting to go up?