Author Topic: Saido Berahino  (Read 2556596 times)

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charlebaggie

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9225 on: September 25, 2016, 06:54:59 PM »
I cannot see after another non-season for him anyone wanting to pay him the huge amounts of money or signing on fee's that he thinks he can command...that ship has sailed I reckon

on loan in the championship within 3-4 years
. With a little luck . Couldn't give a toss about the ungrateful little  s**t

TheJacko2000

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9226 on: September 25, 2016, 07:08:50 PM »
I don't think you understand the plan.  The foreign club will just be a facilitator.  There are many foreign clubs who would very happily take a £500k facilitation fee.  No need for them to be co-owned at all.  It's the easiest money they will ever make and is petty cash to Berahino and his agent who will pocket many millions as a signing-on fee with an English club when he's a free agent.  The foreign club is needed solely to avoid the tribunal fee.

This isn't how it works.

The suggestion is, Berahino signs a pre-contract agreement somewhere between January and July with a foreign club. He then transfers to that club on a free transfer on July 1st. They then have to honour whatever contract he has signed with them. Then he would be sold/loaned to a Premier League club.

If your suggestion is they'll sell him for a nominal fee or the original contract offered by the foreign club will meet all Berahino's salary and signing on expectations and the Premier League club will assume responsibility for paying this contract for the duration of the loan then it could possibly work.

He is never a free agent except when he leaves us for the foreign team.
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9227 on: September 25, 2016, 07:25:33 PM »
It's not crazy at all

In the whole scheme of things we don't lose anything that's a fact, you are arguing that we should have accepted a bid for him, we didn't, JP is not what I would call a person with no business sense so I'll leave it to others to argue whether this was a bad business decision or not.

As long as he stays within the UK we will get a decent tribunal fee, if he goes abroad it won't be somewhere of any significance and he won't get big wages and will quite possibly push his career back even more..either way I don't care


Isn't it weird though that in 2012 Hodgson recommended we sack him and Ashworth pleaded to give him his chance...he took it at first but soon reverted to type with his misdemeanours off the pitch and now his downturn in form on the pitch

Won't miss him at all

Jeremy Peace is not immune from making bad business decisions. See Alan Irvine and numerous shambolic transfer windows as just some evidence of that.

Simple economic question for you - Are we going to get 20m for him via tribunal? No. What value have we had from him since we rejected that bid? Very little. IMO we'd have been better of taking the offer on the table and reinvesting that into an aging squad lacking in quality.
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tommcneill

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9228 on: September 25, 2016, 08:28:55 PM »
Jeremy Peace is not immune from making bad business decisions. See Alan Irvine and numerous shambolic transfer windows as just some evidence of that.

Simple economic question for you - Are we going to get 20m for him via tribunal? No. What value have we had from him since we rejected that bid? Very little. IMO we'd have been better of taking the offer on the table and reinvesting that into an aging squad lacking in quality.

Simple question...

Can you confirm the actual structure of any transfer bid we had that would equate to us getting a guaranteed 20m for him?

Every deal I've seen has been a very small upfront payment with structured payments based on appearances, teams getting into the champions league and england appearances.

Ive not seen any bids where its a straight upfront transfer otherwise for me the deals would have been done, its more obvious that there are question marks over Saido hence the deals falling through as they do not give us the money allowing us to reinvest heavily into the squad.

We had a deal with Stoke apparently but Saido turned it down.

People are getting wrapped up in this 20m offers without actually seeing what we would actually receive...

Id rather get 10m in a tribunal for him which would be upfront, than 4-5m upfront and the rest based on clauses being met, especially when you know his attitude and the way he has conducted himself here means it would more than likely happen again elsewhere and therefore invalidate any clauses in a structured payment meaning we don't get the rest of the transfer fee

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tommcneill

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9229 on: September 25, 2016, 08:34:06 PM »
Jeremy Peace is not immune from making bad business decisions. See Alan Irvine and numerous shambolic transfer windows as just some evidence of that.

Simple economic question for you - Are we going to get 20m for him via tribunal? No. What value have we had from him since we rejected that bid? Very little. IMO we'd have been better of taking the offer on the table and reinvesting that into an aging squad lacking in quality.

Absolutely he is not, however the shambolic transfer windows are only what we as fans have called it. He has done enough to protect his investment which has resulted an a near 200m sale of the club, not too shabby for someone who has apparently made some bad decisions.

Id say the guy is a very astute businessman....I dare anyone to reject that

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zippyandbungle

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9230 on: September 25, 2016, 08:36:44 PM »
Absolutely he is not, however the shambolic transfer windows are only what we as fans have called it. He has done enough to protect his investment which has resulted an a near 200m sale of the club, not too shabby for someone who has apparently made some bad decisions.

Id say the guy is a very astute businessman....I dare anyone to reject that
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overseas baggie

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9231 on: September 25, 2016, 08:38:31 PM »
No I understand the plan entirely.

Ive never seen a transfer of that type ever so it would be very murky waters.

Nor have I, but neither have I seen anybody take Berahino's stance before.

I am 100% certain that it would be entirely legal, based in what a prominent sports lawyer has told me.

overseas baggie

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9232 on: September 25, 2016, 08:43:37 PM »
This isn't how it works.

The suggestion is, Berahino signs a pre-contract agreement somewhere between January and July with a foreign club. He then transfers to that club on a free transfer on July 1st. They then have to honour whatever contract he has signed with them. Then he would be sold/loaned to a Premier League club.

If your suggestion is they'll sell him for a nominal fee or the original contract offered by the foreign club will meet all Berahino's salary and signing on expectations and the Premier League club will assume responsibility for paying this contract for the duration of the loan then it could possibly work.

He is never a free agent except when he leaves us for the foreign team.

No, you don't understand it either.  You're missing the role of the co-operating club abroad who will earn a juicy fee for facilitating the whole thing.  The easiest money they will ever make.  He won't ever kick a ball fur them and they'll happily take £500k or £1m for signing some paperwork to facilitate it.  Very attractive to a French Ligue 2 club I believe.


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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9233 on: September 25, 2016, 09:13:00 PM »
No, you don't understand it either.  You're missing the role of the co-operating club abroad who will earn a juicy fee for facilitating the whole thing.  The easiest money they will ever make.  He won't ever kick a ball fur them and they'll happily take £500k or £1m for signing some paperwork to facilitate it.  Very attractive to a French Ligue 2 club I believe.

Fraid not chap, what paperwork do you think they (a French Ligue 2 club) can sign with Berahino and his agent that allows SB to move to a Premier League club on free transfer without compensation?

The only way it works are the 2 totally unrealistic scenario's I have offered previously.
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hardtobeat

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9234 on: September 25, 2016, 09:20:47 PM »
 What about signing for a club abroad that is under the same ownership as one here?. e,g Granada and Watford
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9235 on: September 25, 2016, 09:42:33 PM »
Worse case scenario he goes abroad for a free what have we lost?

£20m - only if Stoke or Palace offered that without add-on's but only then if the player would accept the move and there is plenty of indication that he wasn't that interested.

£5m to £10m which was the reported cash element of the Spurs bid plus possibly the easiest tranche of the the add-on's but let's face it Saido's issues have been well documented and he could quite easily have bombed out at Spurs.

The tribunal fee which if doesn't play much this season probably will be no more than about £5m.

Also consider that had we bought a player for £10m to replace him last season and put him on a 3 year contract that would have cost us about £3m in fees and  another £2m in wages by the time Berahino goes.

Purely from a balance sheet perspective unless someone offered £20m cash then we haven't lost that much. The bigger issue is the lost opportunity to do something better, having a player that fitted the Coach's plans and wanted to be at the club. Our mistake was with two years on his contract we should have actively sold the player and at that stage I think we could have got more interest than just Spurs so we would have got a better deal.

Incidentally if Berahino wants to shaft us on the tribunal fee it is straight forward. Joins random club abroad for free on nominal wage contract loaned to Premier League club with the option to buy for a nominal fee the day after. I think it is more likely that he tries his luck abroad.

 
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overseas baggie

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9236 on: September 25, 2016, 09:53:21 PM »
Fraid not chap, what paperwork do you think they (a French Ligue 2 club) can sign with Berahino and his agent that allows SB to move to a Premier League club on free transfer without compensation?

The only way it works are the 2 totally unrealistic scenario's I have offered previously.

You're still not getting it.

French club signs him for free.  They do a deal to let him move a week later for free to a Premier League club.  They give up all rights to any selling fee in return for a facilitation fee of £500k or £1m.  They get that just for the paperwork and for having had him on their books for a week.  It's a business arrangement.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Every step in the process is legal.  Berahino wins. His agent wins.  The French club wins.  The new English club gets a player on the cheap.  Our club loses.  Very simple, and there's nothing we can do about it apart from try to sell him in January for a club that he wants to go to. But by then, why wouldn't he wait till next summer?

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9237 on: September 25, 2016, 10:26:28 PM »
You're still not getting it.

French club signs him for free.  They do a deal to let him move a week later for free to a Premier League club.  They give up all rights to any selling fee in return for a facilitation fee of £500k or £1m.  They get that just for the paperwork and for having had him on their books for a week.  It's a business arrangement.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Every step in the process is legal.  Berahino wins. His agent wins.  The French club wins.  The new English club gets a player on the cheap.  Our club loses.  Very simple, and there's nothing we can do about it apart from try to sell him in January for a club that he wants to go to. But by then, why wouldn't he wait till next summer?

What contract does he sign with the European club mate? I accept and understand what you are saying, but you are getting into very murky waters here. Who pays this facilitation fee? Why has no one done this before, the moneyball owners of Liverpool for example to save themselves £10 million on Danny Ings? Doesn't add up and isn't viable.

Standaman has it right, nominal fees will be involved in any move of this type, but there will be no closet and dagger secret agreements or payments.

The risk in your scenario and an obvious one at that is once Berahino has done the deal with the European team, they will suddenly fancy £20 million instead of £500k... and the contract he will have signed with them will be for peanuts because that's all they've got. Good luck with that one.
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overseas baggie

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9238 on: September 25, 2016, 11:06:17 PM »
What contract does he sign with the European club mate? I accept and understand what you are saying, but you are getting into very murky waters here. Who pays this facilitation fee? Why has no one done this before, the moneyball owners of Liverpool for example to save themselves £10 million on Danny Ings? Doesn't add up and isn't viable.

Standaman has it right, nominal fees will be involved in any move of this type, but there will be no closet and dagger secret agreements or payments.

The risk in your scenario and an obvious one at that is once Berahino has done the deal with the European team, they will suddenly fancy £20 million instead of £500k... and the contract he will have signed with them will be for peanuts because that's all they've got. Good luck with that one.

He could sign a 4-year contract with the foreign club if he liked, as the foreign club would have pre-agreed to sell him without compensation beyond the facilitation fee. The length of contract would make no difference.

It didn't happen re Ings because Ings wasn't looking to shaft Burnley by having an axe to grind.  Nobody else has been as devious as Berahino and his agent who are determined to get retribution and cash in.   Rest assured it will get clamped down on if it is exploited, but it's legal. 

Your scenario of the foreign club wanting £20m is not relevant.  The separate agreement between Berahino and that foreign club will be watertight in ensuring that the foreign club forgoes everything other than the facilitation fee.  Simple law of contract.

The only possible legal attack is to argue that the initial transfer is all a sham, but I'm told that under current law there is simply nothing to attack it on those grounds.







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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9239 on: September 26, 2016, 12:47:28 AM »
What contract does he sign with the European club mate? I accept and understand what you are saying, but you are getting into very murky waters here. Who pays this facilitation fee? Why has no one done this before, the moneyball owners of Liverpool for example to save themselves £10 million on Danny Ings? Doesn't add up and isn't viable.

Standaman has it right, nominal fees will be involved in any move of this type, but there will be no closet and dagger secret agreements or payments.

The risk in your scenario and an obvious one at that is once Berahino has done the deal with the European team, they will suddenly fancy £20 million instead of £500k... and the contract he will have signed with them will be for peanuts because that's all they've got. Good luck with that one.

There is nothing stopping any club using a bed and breakfast arrangement with an overseas club to circumvent the Under 23 tribunal rule. Two things however stop it, firstly it requires the active collusion of the player and most don't want to shaft their current clubs. Secondly for instance in the Ings case Liverpool understand they are still getting a decent discount on the open market value and equally they have a vested interest in the tribunal system as it offers them protection where they lose an under 23 player (e.g.Sinclair) on a "free" so they don't want to drive a coach and horses through it.
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9240 on: September 26, 2016, 11:24:23 AM »
As I understand it, Berahino is a free agent on 1st July, he signs for a foreign club without any tribunal payment. The contract he signs with them has a very small release clause. He can then be bought by a premier league team who trigger the release clause in a normal transfer. All of this could happen in the same week.

The foreign club sign him for nothing and sell him for something, pure profit.
The premier league team he signs for will have to pay the very small transfer fee, a signing on fee for Berahino, and some rather large agents fees, but all of this will be less than what we were asking for him.

As standaman says, this type of deal is only possible if the player and agent arrange it, and in the case of Ings, I don't think he was looking to screw Burnley...

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9241 on: September 26, 2016, 11:38:42 AM »
As far as I'm concerned he can go and we don't actually lose anything, he has been paid for his time at the club but as with any player these days they can run their contract down and leave for free...the only bonus is we haven't shelled out any transfer fee for him in the first place.

Will I miss him - No

Will the club miss him - On the basis of the last 18 months...again No

The only loser is Berahino who has wasted a major part of his career development and may never get back to the heights he hit with us.

I honestly cant see a big club touching him, he will at best get a Stoke or yet again another mid table or recently promoted team

either way if he goes on to be a top striker I still won't care, His attitude here and on loan at clubs has been shocking for years and this is the result of his attitude.

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9242 on: September 26, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
As I understand it, Berahino is a free agent on 1st July, he signs for a foreign club without any tribunal payment. The contract he signs with them has a very small release clause. He can then be bought by a premier league team who trigger the release clause in a normal transfer. All of this could happen in the same week.


Not correct. A player can not join two separate clubs permanently in the same transfer window. It would have to be a loan which was then made permanent in January.

If these conspiracy theories are true, there will be clubs planning ahead 12 months and hoping for the best. What happens if a Fletcher smashes him during training in May and Berahino ends up with a broken leg... Training ground injuries happen all the time. (Cynical wink ;) )



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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9243 on: September 26, 2016, 12:17:19 PM »
Zeki Fryers is proof of how things can get exploited.

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9244 on: September 26, 2016, 12:28:17 PM »
We all know how Berahino and his agent will operate, it will be to extract the maximum amount they can for both of themselves. If they both put as much effort into making sure he was making himself undroppable in the team we would have a top player on our side.

Instead they have probably ruined any chance of the huge signing on fee and wages they could have received

Agent should be banned in my honest and the PFA in charge of player contracts. Football is going down a slippery slope at the moment and although I've never liked it perhaps centralised contracts should be considered
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9245 on: September 26, 2016, 12:39:44 PM »
I actually don't care.

We've not seen him for two games and it's been lovely to not see his fat backside waddling around and the sideshow that goes with it.

If the last I see of him is him bumping into people, getting in the way and generally wheezing round the pitch against Boro then i'll be a happy man.

He cost us nothing, so we've only lost out on speculative money which we don't really need. WBA will still be here long after he's gone.
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9246 on: September 26, 2016, 01:28:34 PM »
Not correct. A player can not join two separate clubs permanently in the same transfer window. It would have to be a loan which was then made permanent in January.

If these conspiracy theories are true, there will be clubs planning ahead 12 months and hoping for the best. What happens if a Fletcher smashes him during training in May and Berahino ends up with a broken leg... Training ground injuries happen all the time. (Cynical wink ;) )
Perish the thought he might get seriously injured before he leaves the club  ;).

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9247 on: September 26, 2016, 02:15:29 PM »
I actually don't care.

We've not seen him for two games and it's been lovely to not see his fat backside waddling around and the sideshow that goes with it.

If the last I see of him is him bumping into people, getting in the way and generally wheezing round the pitch against Boro then i'll be a happy man.

He cost us nothing, so we've only lost out on speculative money which we don't really need. WBA will still be here long after he's gone.

I'm with this.

Quite frankly - I'll be quite happy if I never see him play again for us. I'd much rather see someone like Rondon or Robson-Kanu who actually look like they're happy to be here and are not going to stink the place out with an appalling attitude.
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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9248 on: September 26, 2016, 02:37:31 PM »
I would be very surprised if a premier league team signs him, I know he had a dozen or so good games a few years ago and scored some penaltys but on all recent form and with his baggage and attitude he will do well to sign for a top half championship team.

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Re: Saido Berahino
« Reply #9249 on: September 26, 2016, 05:02:25 PM »
It's interesting to speculate, but surely the easiest thing for him to do is go and get paid a shed load in China. Big payday for him and his agent. He can always come back when we've all forgotten what an unprofessional brat he is.

The other scenarios just seem like too much trouble.  The contract situation will come under a different legal jurisdiction once he's left and signed for a foreign club, so we're a bit in the dark here.  But as I see it, there are two problems:

1. It assumes that there is  club somewhere, let's say in Europe, which is happy to have him parked there for a week or a month or whatever for minimal return (or if, as Stokelad suggests, he can't move clubs  more than once in a window, for three months.  This means the initial buying club will need to pay him and probably play him for three months).  Now if you are, say, a Ligue 2 side skimping for every penny, are you really going to forego the potential return on a notional £20,000,000 asset to do a favour for a big boy for peanuts?

2. If the club he first goes to makes agreement to sell him on for a notional amount to a EPL club, would that be a binding contract since it is made before they actually own his playing contract?  Would it be enforceable if the first club decided to try to cash in? If players' contracts all have to be lodged with the club's FA, would they sanction the kind of agreement being talked about.

I love these what if threads  :-\
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