Author Topic: The improved defense myth  (Read 4393 times)

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Albionic

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The improved defense myth
« on: December 09, 2014, 11:30:23 PM »
I've been thinking for a few weeks that despite not getting thumped we seem to be leaking a fair few goals.

A quick tot up shows,  played 18, 2or more conceded = 11, less than 2 conceded = 7.

Whilst we (i hope) would all agree that Joleon and the Poc are improvements on last season and the midfield has been more defensively biased, the result is not acceptable.

Is this a Dawson & Wisdom issue
A Dawson issue
A Wisdom issue
Midfield issue

or purely bad organisation (coaching),  We had a clean sheet last week is Gmac returning that significant?
Is AI correct to keep concentrating on fixing this before becoming more offensive?

Thoughts ??
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maccbaggie

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 11:38:48 PM »
a) Wisdom is terrible;
b) Yacob and Mulumbu were the best axis we've ever had in the history of our Premier League status. Play them together, we'll improve defensively, and can also justify playing Varela, Blanco and Sessegnon in front of them. That way you have 2 players specialised for defending and 3 for attacking. At the moment, we have 4 who do neither particularly effectively (Morrison, Gardner, Dorrans, Brunt);
c) Attack is the best form of defence. The more possession we have in the oppositions half, the less time they have to hurt us.

Jeremy Roland Peace

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 11:43:07 PM »
a) Wisdom is terrible;
b) Yacob and Mulumbu were the best axis we've ever had in the history of our Premier League status. Play them together, we'll improve defensively, and can also justify playing Varela, Blanco and Sessegnon in front of them. That way you have 2 players specialised for defending and 3 for attacking. At the moment, we have 4 who do neither particularly effectively (Morrison, Gardner, Dorrans, Brunt);
c) Attack is the best form of defence. The more possession we have in the oppositions half, the less time they have to hurt us.

think this only works when they are part of a 5 man midfield with 2 wide players pushing higher up to support the striker.

saw games when they were part of a 4 man midfield and were simply overrun

maccbaggie

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 11:47:28 PM »
think this only works when they are part of a 5 man midfield with 2 wide players pushing higher up to support the striker.

saw games when they were part of a 4 man midfield and were simply overrun
Hence playing Varela, Sessegnon and Blanco ahead of them

seteefeet

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2014, 11:52:20 PM »
I think Irvine's idea is that two banks of 4 offer more protection against the counter attack, which is probably true as I don't think we've been particularly susceptible this season. The problem is, with the lack of creativity we have in midfield most of the game is played in the middle third and we are eventually played through.
This backs up Mac's point that our midfield four don't specialise in either area so we lack penetration without being particularly strong defensively, the upshot of which is, we don't get hammered, but we don't win many either.
I believe Mulumbu and Yacob in a 5 man midfield would improve us in both areas.

tommcneill

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2014, 11:52:43 PM »
Yep I agree with playing Mulumbu and Yacob as our 2 midfielders with 3 attacking players infront of them.

I honestly believe we would win a lot more games with those 2 playing again.

(I have blasted Mulumbu for his poor form all season so far but playing those 2 together for me would sure us up a lot more)

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baggiejohn

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 12:24:50 AM »
This time last year we'd conceded 19, so slightly worse at 20, but we'd scored 18, so far this season it's 14.
Up to the Newcastle game we were doing ok, since then we've conceded 7 & scored 1.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

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Jeremy Roland Peace

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2014, 12:27:06 AM »
Hence playing Varela, Sessegnon and Blanco ahead of them

would like to see it given a go I doubt AI would do it however.

no coincidence that Mulumbu and Yacob looked good when Morrison was at his best. think it's fair to say all 3 haven't been at their best for over a year now

Jeremy Roland Peace

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2014, 12:29:52 AM »
I think Irvine's idea is that two banks of 4 offer more protection against the counter attack, which is probably true as I don't think we've been particularly susceptible this season. The problem is, with the lack of creativity we have in midfield most of the game is played in the middle third and we are eventually played through.
This backs up Mac's point that our midfield four don't specialise in either area so we lack penetration without being particularly strong defensively, the upshot of which is, we don't get hammered, but we don't win many either.
I believe Mulumbu and Yacob in a 5 man midfield would improve us in both areas.

Hodgson tried 2 banks of 4 in a 442 at the start of his full season in charge. even tried it in the Everton game over new years where he never used a sub and then said he didn't have any good options on the bench. think anichebe scored the winner in that one for Everton.

we finally started to play our better football under Roy in a 451 or 4231 with MAF up top, Odemwingie and Brunt out wide and Morrison behind the striker

johnwilliamso20

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2014, 03:39:52 AM »
I think Irvine's idea is that two banks of 4 offer more protection against the counter attack, which is probably true as I don't think we've been particularly susceptible this season. The problem is, with the lack of creativity we have in midfield most of the game is played in the middle third and we are eventually played through.
This backs up Mac's point that our midfield four don't specialise in either area so we lack penetration without being particularly strong defensively, the upshot of which is, we don't get hammered, but we don't win many either.
I believe Mulumbu and Yacob in a 5 man midfield would improve us in both areas.

You need to attack to be susceptible to a counter attack.

FallOutBoy

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2014, 07:15:46 AM »
One of the things I pointed out about at the West Ham game was, that for a side with two centre-halves who are supposedly strong in the air, we seem to concede an awful lot of headed goals, or goals that come as a result of them.

I don't think Dawson is a problem, he's still learning and has impressed me alongside Lescott. I think the problem is the full backs, and the lack of midfield cover.

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2014, 07:25:29 AM »
One of the things I pointed out about at the West Ham game was, that for a side with two centre-halves who are supposedly strong in the air, we seem to concede an awful lot of headed goals, or goals that come as a result of them.

I don't think Dawson is a problem, he's still learning and has impressed me alongside Lescott. I think the problem is the full backs, and the lack of midfield cover.

That's it right there. You keep passing back to your own goalpost and eventually something gives.

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tylerm

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2014, 07:35:11 AM »
a) Wisdom is terrible;
b) Yacob and Mulumbu were the best axis we've ever had in the history of our Premier League status. Play them together, we'll improve defensively, and can also justify playing Varela, Blanco and Sessegnon in front of them. That way you have 2 players specialised for defending and 3 for attacking. At the moment, we have 4 who do neither particularly effectively (Morrison, Gardner, Dorrans, Brunt);
c) Attack is the best form of defence. The more possession we have in the oppositions half, the less time they have to hurt us.

Maccbaggie why don't you send your CV in as you will be a ready replacement for when this idiot irvine gets the boot
If you need an assistant make your first job to get rid of Downing and I'm free

Quakes Fan

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2014, 08:29:53 AM »
Maccbaggie why don't you send your CV in as you will be a ready replacement for when this idiot irvine gets the boot
If you need an assistant make your first job to get rid of Downing and I'm free

I've thought about suggesting this a few times myself, but I didn't want to be the first.

Signor_Maresca

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2014, 09:38:39 PM »

b) Yacob and Mulumbu were the best axis we've ever had in the history of our Premier League status. Play them together, we'll improve defensively, and can also justify playing Varela, Blanco and Sessegnon in front of them. That way you have 2 players specialised for defending and 3 for attacking. At the moment, we have 4 who do neither particularly effectively (Morrison, Gardner, Dorrans, Brunt);

Absolutely agree with this, would give us the licence to play three players who can actually create something.
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Albionic

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 10:18:13 PM »
Maccbaggie why don't you send your CV in as you will be a ready replacement for when this idiot irvine gets the boot
If you need an assistant make your first job to get rid of Downing and I'm free

No more dour scotsmen please !!!
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maccbaggie

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Re: The improved defense myth
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2014, 10:23:34 PM »
No more dour scotsmen please !!!
Hahaha, I can assure you I'm neither Scottish nor have I ever lived there  8)