Author Topic: Guochuan Lai  (Read 2369712 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

graka

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3390
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9575 on: August 14, 2023, 08:47:18 PM »
Not sure where to post this so I’m popping it here as it’s to do with owners
Has anyone else watched the Burnley documentary?
I’m not sure how much of it was done for the cameras but they are very hands on a complete opposite to our useless bunch

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17240
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9576 on: August 14, 2023, 08:48:31 PM »
An Amazon series about us could only be called 'Lai - Nothing and nothing'

liverbaggie

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 2254
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9577 on: August 14, 2023, 10:14:36 PM »
There the truth the who truth then theres Lai

SedgleyAlbion

  • Junior Baggie

  • Offline
  • **

  • 183
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9578 on: August 14, 2023, 10:21:56 PM »
Not correct.  The club does NOT lose that £2m as it’s not a club loan and never was!  The £2m didn’t come out of the club in the first place - it was borrowed by Holdings from Warmfront.  The only loser is Yunyai whose shareholding in Holdings will have been reduced if the loan converts until equity.

“Follow the money” is always a useful starting point.

Ok then. I bow to your far superior knowledge, you know far more than me, 3 forensic accountants, 2 lawyers, S4A and the leading football finance expert in the country. Thank goodness you are right and everything is going to be just fine. Phew, I was panicking. Clearly no need too.


overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4156
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9579 on: August 14, 2023, 10:41:27 PM »
Ok then. I bow to your far superior knowledge, you know far more than me, 3 forensic accountants, 2 lawyers, S4A and the leading football finance expert in the country. Thank goodness you are right and everything is going to be just fine. Phew, I was panicking. Clearly no need too.

Some of what is being stated by several of them is often factually incorrect on quite a regular basis.    Simple as that.  They often get it only 90% right and the other 10% is key.  As you know, I follow it extremely closely. The facts are the facts and most of them are not especially complex when you follow it very closely.  Some of these so-called experts only dip in and out when asked for their comments.

Company law and interpreting audited accounts is not rocket science (I’ve been doing it professionally for 40 years). 

You’re obviously entitled to your view.  Sarcasm is unnecessary. I will continue to correct inaccurate comments which are made by those who haven’t quite got it right.


SedgleyAlbion

  • Junior Baggie

  • Offline
  • **

  • 183
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9580 on: August 14, 2023, 10:47:49 PM »
Some of what is being stated by several of them is often factually incorrect on quite a regular basis.    Simple as that.  They often get it only 90% right and the other 10% is key.  As you know, I follow it extremely closely. The facts are the facts and most of them are not especially complex when you follow it very closely.  Some of these so-called experts only dip in and out when asked for their comments.

Company law and interpreting audited accounts is not rocket science (I’ve been doing it professionally for 40 years). 

You’re obviously entitled to your view.  Sarcasm is unnecessary. I will continue to correct inaccurate comments which are made by those who haven’t quite got it right.

Dipping in and out? What makes you think these people do that, I respect you have experience in company law. Can I ask then, what will happen if/when Holdings default on the loan?


overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4156
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9581 on: August 14, 2023, 11:48:03 PM »
Dipping in and out? What makes you think these people do that, I respect you have experience in company law. Can I ask then, what will happen if/when Holdings default on the loan?

Some of them definitely do that.  Kieran Maguire for example follows every club. He’s not as close to the finer detail as some  of us are on here.  I’ve seen him on Twitter being corrected re the loans.

What will happen if/when Holdings defaults on the loan?  We can only guess because the terms of any private agreement between Holdings and Warmfront are exactly that - private - until they are made public which won’t be until either the default actually happens or the audited accounts are published in March next year.

But it is hard to see anything other than Warmfront exercising its security and converting the loan to anywhere between a 2.35% and 9.9% shareholding in Holdings, which doesn’t affect anything at group or club level.  That percentage will depend on what they have negotiated after the initial default.  I don’t think Warmfront will want to own more than 10% as they’d have to go through the EFL owners test.  What does that change?  Nothing at all on the face of it - Yunyai will simply have diluted its ownership of Holdings.

However, there is a risk that Holdings may offer Warmfront to swap shares in itself for shares in Group, which could mean that Warmfront might then own around 9.9% of Group.  It’s possible - if they’ve agreed such a deal between them.  That possibly makes a sale of the club a bit more complicated because a buyer might then only be able to purchase around 79% rather than nearly 89%. 

Until we know exactly what deal has been struck between lender and borrower it’s impossible to be more definitive.  All of us can only be guessing until hard facts are known.

baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4632
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9582 on: August 15, 2023, 07:53:42 AM »
I have been a member of this forum for a number of years now & one thing I've learned is to never underestimate the knowlege & experience of fellow members.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

LiamTheBaggie

  • Administrator
  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *****
  • @westbromcom

  • 14981
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9583 on: August 15, 2023, 08:14:08 AM »

However, there is a risk that Holdings may offer Warmfront to swap shares in itself for shares in Group, which could mean that Warmfront might then own around 9.9% of Group.  It’s possible - if they’ve agreed such a deal between them.  That possibly makes a sale of the club a bit more complicated because a buyer might then only be able to purchase around 79% rather than nearly 89%. 

And I assume this is the reason as to why AFA, S4A are championing a full sale..
Dexy : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : OldburyWBA
Adder : Hull Baggie : lewisant : Political Cake : tommcneill

Follow WestBrom.com on twitter - https://twitter.com/WestBromcom

throstle

  • Youth Baggie

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 570
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9584 on: August 15, 2023, 08:33:15 AM »
Birmingham Mail reports:

It's understood that while the interest rate will continue to pile up in the period of time that it isn't repaid, the 2.35% is only secured against the original £2m sum borrowed by Lai through Holdings.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 08:45:12 AM by throstle »

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4156
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9585 on: August 15, 2023, 09:25:10 AM »
And I assume this is the reason as to why AFA, S4A are championing a full sale..

Also, if there’s one thing worse than Yunyai’s ownership, it’s another charlatan party being a significant minority shareholder and the risk of shareholder squabbles between them.  It could get very messy.  Best avoided. 

baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4632
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9586 on: August 15, 2023, 10:36:47 AM »
Birmingham Mail reports:

It's understood that while the interest rate will continue to pile up in the period of time that it isn't repaid, the 2.35% is only secured against the original £2m sum borrowed by Lai through Holdings.

Think I'd be careful of reports from media, bear in mind these are specialists in reporting sport not finance. Almost all of their information is second hand.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

throstle

  • Youth Baggie

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 570
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9587 on: August 15, 2023, 11:20:07 AM »
Think I'd be careful of reports from media, bear in mind these are specialists in reporting sport not finance. Almost all of their information is second hand.

That's the media for you. Always dipping in and out.

SedgleyAlbion

  • Junior Baggie

  • Offline
  • **

  • 183
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9588 on: August 15, 2023, 06:14:38 PM »
Some of them definitely do that.  Kieran Maguire for example follows every club. He’s not as close to the finer detail as some  of us are on here.  I’ve seen him on Twitter being corrected re the loans.

What will happen if/when Holdings defaults on the loan?  We can only guess because the terms of any private agreement between Holdings and Warmfront are exactly that - private - until they are made public which won’t be until either the default actually happens or the audited accounts are published in March next year.

But it is hard to see anything other than Warmfront exercising its security and converting the loan to anywhere between a 2.35% and 9.9% shareholding in Holdings, which doesn’t affect anything at group or club level.  That percentage will depend on what they have negotiated after the initial default.  I don’t think Warmfront will want to own more than 10% as they’d have to go through the EFL owners test.  What does that change?  Nothing at all on the face of it - Yunyai will simply have diluted its ownership of Holdings.

However, there is a risk that Holdings may offer Warmfront to swap shares in itself for shares in Group, which could mean that Warmfront might then own around 9.9% of Group.  It’s possible - if they’ve agreed such a deal between them.  That possibly makes a sale of the club a bit more complicated because a buyer might then only be able to purchase around 79% rather than nearly 89%. 

Until we know exactly what deal has been struck between lender and borrower it’s impossible to be more definitive.  All of us can only be guessing until hard facts are known.

There has been a lot of discussion regarding Warmfront Holdings the past few days, mainly started from us. So I’m sharing this with you to try to explain why it’s so key and important.

Here’s why it’s clear to me if I were Hearn I’d be eager to restructure the loan deal, even if it wasn’t anything to do with other desirables.

Ok bear with, I’ll try to break down.

His debt in Feb will be over £4m OR 2.35% of holdings shares.

That ultimately means his shares are 88.6% of group. (S4A owns rest)

So, if the clubs market value is to be believed, Yunyi are willing to accept £30m

This means that the value of those shares based on this figure is £624,630.

(30m / 2.35% / 88.6%)

The share is a fixed amount, doesn’t rise.

So if you were Hearn, surely you would look at the likelihood that you are not going to get the money back, and say to the person you lent it to you need a bigger percentage of shares to signify the drop in value from when you loaned the money. As he’s defaulted, he could use this as a negotiating tactic. Preferably in club (I’m pretty sure Hearn thinks it’s club already - hence ‘affiliate’ on their website)

If I were him I’d be asking 15% of club shares (not Holdings) = £4.5m

However, this will not work for Lai, as he still needs to retain 75% to do what he wants (15% would take him to 73.66%) Therefore I’d expect there will be an attempt to do a deal at around 12% in exchange for ripping loan agreement up.

That’s why I think it’s so relevant. We could be having a person/s that will own a share of our football club only because our owner has defaulted on a loan. Hardly a commitment to make our club better that is it?

The problem is though, the club won’t have a clue if/when they’re negotiating as all Directors of Group and Holdings are all Chinese. An absolute disgrace the EFL allow this to happen

johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6766
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9589 on: August 15, 2023, 06:29:11 PM »
If Warmfront lent £2m on the basis it’s a secured against a fixed 2.35% without other provisions,  I don’t see how he can just renegotiate. It would need certain conditions to establish how the percentage would be calculated if value dropped, such as by angreed  independent specialists. Same as if the value had gone up, Lai couldn’t just give a lower percentage. .  The courts wouldn’t entertain a finger in the air claim on higher percentages based on my knowledge of contract law and the minimum requirements of a valid contract. This is why MSD have secured on assets, they are more secure. You need certainty of terms in a contract.

If it’s is true it’s a fixed 2.35%, Warmfront Gambled stupidly by the looks of it, and I’m afraid they lost. Lai has them by the balls as far as I can tell
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 06:35:57 PM by johnny Cash »

baggie96

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1334
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9590 on: August 15, 2023, 07:04:26 PM »
As above, the loan is secured against 2.35% of shares. So either Lai pays the loan or warmfront gain 2.35%. Why would Lai offer more than 2.35%? I imagine warmfront will just let the interest build so a potential new owner pays it off.

Seems to be a bit of a cock up from warmfront to have the loan secured against a fixed 2.35% share of holdings. Probably explains why Lai borrowed from a heating company in Brierley hill rather than a proper lender…

alex1

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 5967
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9591 on: August 15, 2023, 07:51:43 PM »
If Warmfront are a heating company based at Brierley Hill, are they well known in the local community? If they have a lot of customers in the area, a fair number are likely to be Albion fans. Could that be of any relevance? 
Einstein: A definition of insanity- someone who takes the same action time after time, even though previously it's always ended in failure

baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4632
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9592 on: August 15, 2023, 07:53:20 PM »
I've got a feeling we ought to take this heating company from Brierley Hill a bit more seriously.

Just done a bit more research on them & another one of their affiliates is a company called Global Sports Data & Technology group, who have Russel Slade as one of it's directors. Although RS wasn't a great success in football management, he does know his way around the game.

In the greater scheme of things, £30 million isn't a lot of money in football terms, & I could easily see Alex Hearn leading a buy-out consortium.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4156
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9593 on: August 15, 2023, 10:01:57 PM »
Some of what is being stated by several of them is often factually incorrect on quite a regular basis.    Simple as that.  They often get it only 90% right and the other 10% is key.  As you know, I follow it extremely closely. The facts are the facts and most of them are not especially complex when you follow it very closely.  Some of these so-called experts only dip in and out when asked for their comments.

Company law and interpreting audited accounts is not rocket science (I’ve been doing it professionally for 40 years). 

You’re obviously entitled to your view.  Sarcasm is unnecessary. I will continue to correct inaccurate comments which are made by those who haven’t quite got it right.

This is precisely what I was referring to.  Football finance expert Kieran Maguire completely on the wrong track by believing that the Warmfront loan is a debt of the club and that the club might end owing £10m by 2025.  It is not a club debt and never was!    It’s the sort of inaccurate tripe that so-called experts spout, and then journalists and Twitter “experts” repeat often enough that fans believe it to be true.

https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2023/08/15/finance-expert-mocks-guochuan-lai-as-10m-debt-update-on-west-brom-loan-emerges/

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4156
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9594 on: August 15, 2023, 10:32:45 PM »
There has been a lot of discussion regarding Warmfront Holdings the past few days, mainly started from us. So I’m sharing this with you to try to explain why it’s so key and important.

Here’s why it’s clear to me if I were Hearn I’d be eager to restructure the loan deal, even if it wasn’t anything to do with other desirables.

Ok bear with, I’ll try to break down.

His debt in Feb will be over £4m OR 2.35% of holdings shares.

That ultimately means his shares are 88.6% of group. (S4A owns rest)

So, if the clubs market value is to be believed, Yunyi are willing to accept £30m

This means that the value of those shares based on this figure is £624,630.

(30m / 2.35% / 88.6%)

The share is a fixed amount, doesn’t rise.

So if you were Hearn, surely you would look at the likelihood that you are not going to get the money back, and say to the person you lent it to you need a bigger percentage of shares to signify the drop in value from when you loaned the money. As he’s defaulted, he could use this as a negotiating tactic. Preferably in club (I’m pretty sure Hearn thinks it’s club already - hence ‘affiliate’ on their website)

If I were him I’d be asking 15% of club shares (not Holdings) = £4.5m

However, this will not work for Lai, as he still needs to retain 75% to do what he wants (15% would take him to 73.66%) Therefore I’d expect there will be an attempt to do a deal at around 12% in exchange for ripping loan agreement up.

That’s why I think it’s so relevant. We could be having a person/s that will own a share of our football club only because our owner has defaulted on a loan. Hardly a naughty boy to make our club better that is it?

The problem is though, the club won’t have a clue if/when they’re negotiating as all Directors of Group and Holdings are all Chinese. An absolute disgrace the EFL allow this to happen

 

What does “That ultimately means his shares are 88.6% of group. (S4A owns rest)” mean in the context of your post?  It makes no sense whatsoever.

Your analysis and valuation do not stack up.  If £4m (the £2m debt plus interest) was valued at 2.35% of Holdings at the time the loan was taken out (I’d argue that it could also be just the capital sum of £2m being valued at 2.35%, with an assumption that the interest would actually be paid while the loan was outstanding), then the value of the club for the purpose of the investment will have been either £192m (based on £4m) or £96m (based on £2m). The matter is more likely based on when the loan was taken out.

There would be no need for any “renegotiation” if the loan remains outstanding once Warmfront have demanded repayment and exercised their security by taking the 2.35% shareholding in Holdings.  Exercising the security extinguishes the loan.  The liability disappears when the 2.35% shares in Holdings are transferred to Warmfront.  There’s then no further compounding of accrued interest as all capital and interest under the loan is deemed repaid.

It is of course possible that Warmfront have agreed to accept some additional shares in Holdings for agreeing to defer calling in the loan until February 2024.  Such an agreement would undoubtedly result in an increase in the share security from 2.35% to somewhat more because Holdings’ 88.6% stake in the club is clearly worth less now.  We aren’t yet privy to what may have been negotiated, but it is very likely to be less than 11% in total re Holdings’s shares, so as not to take Warmfront over the EFL’s 10% owners’ threshold.

If Hearn doesn’t think he will get their money back then they simply need to call in their security and take the relevant shares in Holdings.  Hearn can ask for whatever he wants, but commercially Lai/Yunyai would surely just say “no, you accepted the 2.35% shareholding as security and that’s it” for the £2m loan plus interest, plus whatever has been negotiated for the extension.





johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6766
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9595 on: August 15, 2023, 11:33:09 PM »


What does “That ultimately means his shares are 88.6% of group. (S4A owns rest)” mean in the context of your post?  It makes no sense whatsoever.

Your analysis and valuation do not stack up.  If £4m (the £2m debt plus interest) was valued at 2.35% of Holdings at the time the loan was taken out (I’d argue that it could also be just the capital sum of £2m being valued at 2.35%, with an assumption that the interest would actually be paid while the loan was outstanding), then the value of the club for the purpose of the investment will have been either £192m (based on £4m) or £96m (based on £2m). The matter is more likely based on when the loan was taken out.

There would be no need for any “renegotiation” if the loan remains outstanding once Warmfront have demanded repayment and exercised their security by taking the 2.35% shareholding in Holdings.  Exercising the security extinguishes the loan.  The liability disappears when the 2.35% shares in Holdings are transferred to Warmfront.  There’s then no further compounding of accrued interest as all capital and interest under the loan is deemed repaid.

It is of course possible that Warmfront have agreed to accept some additional shares in Holdings for agreeing to defer calling in the loan until February 2024.  Such an agreement would undoubtedly result in an increase in the share security from 2.35% to somewhat more because Holdings’ 88.6% stake in the club is clearly worth less now.  We aren’t yet privy to what may have been negotiated, but it is very likely to be less than 11% in total re Holdings’s shares, so as not to take Warmfront over the EFL’s 10% owners’ threshold.

If Hearn doesn’t think he will get their money back then they simply need to call in their security and take the relevant shares in Holdings.  Hearn can ask for whatever he wants, but commercially Lai/Yunyai would surely just say “no, you accepted the 2.35% shareholding as security and that’s it” for the £2m loan plus interest, plus whatever has been negotiated for the extension.


It doesn’t seem to make sense that they would swap shares in holdings for share in group, or negotiate to give more based on them not calling in the loan. Just give the 2.35% if Warmfront want to call it and have done with it. You’ve already had Warmfront pants down with 2.35% being worth at least 40% less than the £2m you got for it.

If someone owns 2.35% of holdings, they pretty inconsequential are they not. Then if they want to sell, by selling their 97.65% of holdings, whoever buys can force through a compulsory acquisition of the remaining 2.35%, thus obtaining the full  88% of group?

Thoughts overseas?

Standaman

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 7998
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9596 on: August 16, 2023, 02:13:18 AM »
There is no logic to charging a 5% monthly default rate of interest if the borrower can simply surrender over valued security to discharge the loan. Equally there is no point in defaulting if the principal and interest can be discharged by surrendering 2.35% of the equity in Holdings which at the point of default would be worth less than the outstanding loan plus interest.

Without seeing the loan agreement it is impossible to say but given the actions of the parties to the agreement I have to assume Lai can't pay and can't simply discharge the loan by surrendering the security. Equally  Warm Front believe at some point the interest they are charging will be paid and if it isn't they have some remedy to secure payment, otherwise it is a charitable donation not a commercial contract.     

Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6766
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9597 on: August 16, 2023, 07:20:08 AM »
I’m confused. The last post I quoted has changed, but it doesn’t say it was edited and normally even if an original is edited, the quote remains the same.  :-\

 :-\ Anyone shed any light on that?

SmethDan

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 8569
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9598 on: August 16, 2023, 07:35:46 AM »
Whenever I open this thread and read posts the words and theme tune from the 70s sitcom Soap ring out in my head. Every time. I just know it's going to happen, it's unerring.

'Confused? You will be '.... 'duh duh, duh duh, duh duh duh duh'. Probably explains why I have so much difficulty actually following what's been posted. I'm not thick afterall. It's that damned music.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

Jeremy Roland Peace

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1171
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #9599 on: August 16, 2023, 08:56:08 AM »
what is clear is Lai doesn't understand what a loan is as he doesn't seem to pay anything back on any of them.