[gazberg]

It's a good read, Gazberg. I can't see any answers forthcoming though, sadly.

I feel the same mate too. Bad tiimes for us all.

[SmethDan]

It's a good read, Gazberg. I can't see any answers forthcoming though, sadly.

I found it quite a confusing read to be honest. I now have pound signs, question marks and the HMRC logo bouncing around in front of my eyes. From my limited financial knowledge it seems like 'we've' been led to a dance on the edge of an open cess pit in the rain and our guardians are turning a blind one to us struggling for air having slipped into slops and brown stuff. And they really don't seem to give a XXXX about what we or anyone else feels or thinks about it either. W@nchors.

[johnny Cash]

Wonder what S4A will do when their deadline passes. We will see them superglued to the east stand?

[NJS]

It's pretty clear that S4A suspect that WBA Holdings are using WBA Group to pay their legal, service and other costs. Any money owing to the Group is not about to be repaid.  They also question the size of the fee paid for Pereira.

If we ever get promoted don't expect the club to see much of the money because it will go on servicing the debt to MSD Holdings, paying WBA Holdings operational and legal costs. 
WBA Holdings has loaned money to Wisdom Smart which the auditors has written off and WarmFront at 5%pcm or 78% pa; S4A ask who is paying this interest.

My opinion is that , If we went up, Lai would hang onto the club for as long as he thought he could suck money out of the Sky payments.  If we don't go up, I think he would cut his losses and get out for market price. 

What we need is a friendly barrister to take out a civil case in UK courts against P Y Li and Xu Ke (cuddly Ken)

[Standaman]

I am loathed to criticise S4A in their attempts to hold the ownership to account but they might have been better served by 5 good questions rather than throwing the kitchen sink at it. A lot of the questions will be easily batted back by reference to "Commercial Confidentiality"

1. What is the current trading position?
2. How much of the MDH loan has been drawn down and spent?
3. How is the interest being charged on that loan?
4. What steps have you taken to recover the Wisdom Smart loan?
5. Why is the Holdings loan from Warm Front in default?

The one thing I would have left completely alone was the Pereira transfer. One might suspect an off the books payment between related parties but there is no way of proving it and they really aren't going to admit to it. If the transfer involved anything not on the official documentation (which has been audited) then we are in deep doodoo the with football authorities.

If I was S4A I would be demanding that the auditors who seem to have done a through job on this year's accounts be retained for next year. 

[baggie82]

I am loathed to criticise S4A in their attempts to hold the ownership to account but they might have been better served by 5 good questions rather than throwing the kitchen sink at it. A lot of the questions will be easily batted back by reference to "Commercial Confidentiality"

1. What is the current trading position?
2. How much of the MDH loan has been drawn down and spent?
3. How is the interest being charged on that loan?
4. What steps have you taken to recover the Wisdom Smart loan?
5. Why is the Holdings loan from Warm Front in default?

The one thing I would have left completely alone was the Pereira transfer. One might suspect an off the books payment between related parties but there is no way of proving it and they really aren't going to admit to it. If the transfer involved anything not on the official documentation (which has been audited) then we are in deep doodoo the with football authorities.

If I was S4A I would be demanding that the auditors who seem to have done a through job on this year's accounts be retained for next year.

Agreed. I thought it was naive to ask the club to disclose precise contracts on loans and transfers. Even clubs well run with honourable owners and boardrooms do not provide that level of granular detail; makes the wider request from S4A look like a bit of a fishing expedition.

[tex]

The point is they are unlikely to answer any of the questions and the reliability of any they answer must be in question. Picking out things that S4A asked and should not have is moot, as they the owner is not corresponding anyway.

[skyclad99]

The point is they are unlikely to answer any of the questions and the reliability of any they answer must be in question. Picking out things that S4A asked and should not have is moot, as they the owner is not corresponding anyway.

I think that is absolutely the case tex. The structure of the questions cover all aspects of our mismanagement of the club and to me seem to be a pre cursor to possible legal action.

I have nothing but praise for S4A for asking these questions. I am sure that they (the Chinese) will be seeking legal advice on this.

[SmethDan]

I think that is absolutely the case tex. The structure of the questions cover all aspects of our mismanagement of the club and to me seem to be a pre cursor to possible legal action.

I have nothing but praise for S4A for asking these questions. I am sure that they (the Chinese) will be seeking legal advice on this.

And in reference to NJS's post further up the thread....... in the event of them seeking legal advice for this what's the betting WBA Group would be footing the bill?

[skyclad99]

And in reference to NJS's post further up the thread....... in the event of them seeking legal advice for this what's the betting WBA Group would be footing the bill?

Absolutely no doubt about that Dan, although from memory we do employ a barrister on a part time basis. Let’s hope he is a legal eagle and not a coffee maker….

[SmethDan]

Absolutely no doubt about that Dan, although from memory we do employ a barrister on a part time basis. Let’s hope he is a legal eagle and not a coffee maker….

...... on the other hand he could be a legal eagle and a part time hitman with a penchant for making coffins and doing favours. I'm thinking of someone along the lines of The Equaliser. We can but hope    .

[skyclad99]

...... on the other hand he could be a legal eagle and a part time hitman with a penchant for making coffins and doing favours. I'm thinking of someone along the lines of The Equaliser. We can but hope    .

Knowing our luck he makes a mean double shot skinny latte…

[SmethDan]

Knowing our luck he makes a mean double shot skinny latte…

...... and talking of our luck even the double shot skinny latte would probably backfire and leave us in a right old mess. Never rains etc  .

[Topman]

Great news for blues, they are moving forward. I guess we’ll be taking their place as the midlands basket case club then with these at the helm

[baggiejohn]

Great news for blues, they are moving forward. I guess we’ll be taking their place as the midlands basket case club then with these at the helm

Suspect we'll see a similar model in the near future, it gives Lai a way of getting some of his money back.

[tambag]

The only positive I can find about us not going up is Lai can't take anymore parachute payments out of our club for his other companies.

The big worry now is where does the MSD money end up ?

If we were to sell any of our assests (like Dara), would the money stay in the club ?

[Dexy]

Hopefully they might take a lower sale price now the status of a Premier League club isn't happening next season .
How much more can the afford to lose ?

[overseas baggie]

The only positive I can find about us not going up is Lai can't take anymore parachute payments out of our club for his other companies.

The big worry now is where does the MSD money end up ?

If we were to sell any of our assests (like Dara), would the money stay in the club ?

Relax.  No money can leave the club under the terms of the MSD loan and debenture.  Any breach of that and MSD can call in the loan which in turn would mean administration.

[Dexy]

Relax.  No money can leave the club under the terms of the MSD loan and debenture.  Any breach of that and MSD can call in the loan which in turn would mean administration.

Could be wrong but cutting off his / their ability to move money about might signal they are ready to sell.

[baggie82]

Could be wrong but cutting off his / their ability to move money about might signal they are ready to sell.

Who in their right mind would be "ready to buy" the club? Cash-flow negative; in need of large investment, just another mid-table championship club, no obvious business case for anyone looking to buy; difficult to see how even £30m-£40m is good value for the buyer, and I can't see Lai giving it away so I suspect we are stuck with the current ownership until the whole thing goes up in smoke.

[gazberg]

Who in their right mind would be "ready to buy" the club? Cash-flow negative; in need of large investment, just another mid-table championship club, no obvious business case for anyone looking to buy; difficult to see how even £30m-£40m is good value for the buyer, and I can't see Lai giving it away so I suspect we are stuck with the current ownership until the whole thing goes up in smoke.

An owner with a clue, some level of long term strategy and football acumen (or capable of appointing people with football acumen) would love the club at that price i would imagine.

[baggie82]

An owner with a clue, some level of long term strategy and football acumen (or capable of appointing people with football acumen) would love the club at that price i would imagine.

I do not see it. Any new owner would be inheriting the club's current debt exceeding £20m and a wage bill 200-300% higher than revenue; in a league in which we are now seriously financially outgunned by 6-10 other sides who have parachute money or owners who subsidise their clubs with shareholder loans they are prepared to write off. No business case at all for buying Albion, what we really need is a Jack Hayward / Dave Whelan / Steve Gibson benefactor. Or a very rich American who has zero interest in making any money from the club and wants a toy to throw money at.

[gazberg]

I do not see it. Any new owner would be inheriting the club's current debt exceeding £20m and a wage bill 200-300% higher than revenue; in a league in which we are now seriously financially outgunned by 6-10 other sides who have parachute money or owners who subsidise their clubs with shareholder loans they are prepared to write off. No business case at all for buying Albion, what we really need is a Jack Hayward / Dave Whelan / Steve Gibson benefactor. Or a very rich American who has zero interest in making any money from the club and wants a toy to throw money at.

Get into the PL and the club is worth 100m instantly mate. That's the risk for any new prospective new owner of course.

Lai is not capable of bringing success or even mediocrity. He's clueless and careless in equal measure.

[baggiejohn]

Relax.  No money can leave the club under the terms of the MSD loan and debenture.  Any breach of that and MSD can call in the loan which in turn would mean administration.

Do you see an investment model similar to that proposed at Birmingham City?

[overseas baggie]

I do not see it. Any new owner would be inheriting the club's current debt exceeding £20m and a wage bill 200-300% higher than revenue; in a league in which we are now seriously financially outgunned by 6-10 other sides who have parachute money or owners who subsidise their clubs with shareholder loans they are prepared to write off. No business case at all for buying Albion, what we really need is a Jack Hayward / Dave Whelan / Steve Gibson benefactor. Or a very rich American who has zero interest in making any money from the club and wants a toy to throw money at.

There’s no “debt exceeding £20m”.  The cash from that loan still sits on the balance sheet and there’s no other debt owed by the club, which haa a positive balance sheet.  We are probably the only club in the Championship with no net debt!

The wage bill is already being cut drastically.

There’s never a solid “business case” for buying a Championship club, but there are always buyers out there at a sensible price.  There were genuine American buyers at £100m a few months ago.

We have a bad habit of claiming that nobody will pay anything for any of our players, and that nobody would want to buy the club, both of which are utter nonsense.  At the right price of course.