[skyclad99]

I dont understand company accounts to that level so apologies if i sound thick!

The firesale that people are mentioning, does it start this summer if we dont go up? I was under the impression that we had the £20m loan and that we were going s**t or bust to go up this year or next (not exactly a sensible business plan either way!)

Also, officially Lai shouldnt take any more out, but can he be stopped? The club consits of his mate doesn it? I imagine whatever Lai says, goes.

But although company house, the law, etc may say people cant do certain things, is anything enforceable whilst he is in china? The fact the company address is some shanty building (as per chris lepkowski photo) along with how Lai has run things strikes me he really is dodgy and his need for money to please his investors is far bigger than the worry of company house and uk authorities (same as Blues)

Regarding the firesale, the worry would be one of our most saleable assets is our head coach, if we do have to start selling off this summer then i imagine he would consider his future and  probably wouldnt be short of premier league admirers and the club would be happy as with the new contract he signed, we get a fee!

I am normally a positive person but as per this post, its getting harder to do about the Albion!

Overseas baggie summed up the situation regarding this in an earlier post 79. Like you I am not an accountant  and struggle to understand how writing £5m off is good for the club, but I am happy to go with the flow on this.

Regarding the fire sale, I magine that CC will be our prize asset sadly.

[gazberg]

I would like to wholeheartedly thank JP for screwing this club and its fans over. 'I will only sell to someone that can take the club to the next level'. Well he fooled me, we all assumed the next level would be upwards. I fear this is going to get a whole lot worse before we see the light at the end of the tunnel. Fail to get promoted this year and I think its League 2 here we come (Or even worse). I realise that comment is pessimistic, but how do we get out of this hole we are digging, with an owner that cant sell, and a club devoid of money?

Lai started in a decent position. He just needed to take an interest at any level and come up with some sort of plan.

While I have no doubt JP was only ever selling to the highest bidder the downfall of the club falls on Lazy Lai's shoulders alone. He deserves to lose every penny he does lose eventually sadly the club doesn't.

[johnny Cash]

I dont understand company accounts to that level so apologies if i sound thick!

The firesale that people are mentioning, does it start this summer if we dont go up? I was under the impression that we had the £20m loan and that we were going s**t or bust to go up this year or next (not exactly a sensible business plan either way!)

Also, officially Lai shouldnt take any more out, but can he be stopped? The club consits of his mate doesn it? I imagine whatever Lai says, goes.

But although company house, the law, etc may say people cant do certain things, is anything enforceable whilst he is in china? The fact the company address is some shanty building (as per chris lepkowski photo) along with how Lai has run things strikes me he really is dodgy and his need for money to please his investors is far bigger than the worry of company house and uk authorities (same as Blues)

Regarding the firesale, the worry would be one of our most saleable assets is our head coach, if we do have to start selling off this summer then i imagine he would consider his future and  probably wouldnt be short of premier league admirers and the club would be happy as with the new contract he signed, we get a fee!

I am normally a positive person but as per this post, its getting harder to do about the Albion!

Without Parachute income something has to happen this summer. IMO  I expect everyone out of contract leaves and everyone is for sale at at a decent price (maybe 75%-80% of what we would really like).  Not sure how many of our players will be attracting interest though.  Not  too many championship sides spending money apart from those relegated.

If I were a vulture I'd be looking at Griffiths and Taylor. If you could get those two cheap you've got big potential upside. Wouldn't surprise me to see a Brentford or Brighton interested in those.

In terms of Lai being in China. It makes it difficult to take criminal action if he does anything illegal but the club will certainly pay if anything like that were to happen. Sanctions, embargo's, points deductions. It could be come a real mess.

 

[skyclad99]

Lai started in a decent position. He just needed to take an interest at any level and come up with some sort of plan.

While I have no doubt JP was only ever selling to the highest bidder the downfall of the club falls on Lazy Lai's shoulders alone. He deserves to lose every penny he does lose eventually sadly the club doesn't.

We had a bit of a perfect storm hit us really. The 'lifelong baggie fan' took the highest bid without a care for what happened to the club, Williams and Pulis spent money like lottery winners, and in Lai we had someone who had absolutely no idea about football and couldn't run a bath, let alone an established club like WBA.

The concern for me is that I don't think we have hit the bottom at the moment, we have a long way to fall yet......

 

[Jordie1471]

The firesale that people are mentioning, does it start this summer if we dont go up? I was under the impression that we had the £20m loan and that we were going s**t or bust to go up this year or next (not exactly a sensible business plan either way!)

So we made a 17 million loss up to June 2022 excluding player sales

Stands to reason we will make a similar loss up to June 2023 excluding player sales.

I think realistically the loan has been put in place as without a loan the  two options would be;

Find a way to sell 15-20m worth of players this summer and if we don't stop paying wages/go into administration sooner rather than later.

With this loan this eases that pressure in this summer at the very least. However I would assume we will still be looking to find a way to sell 0-20m worth of players, trying to thread a fine line of keeping us afloat but still remaining competitive in this division (for 1 more season anyway)

[gazberg]

We had a bit of a perfect storm hit us really. The 'lifelong baggie fan' took the highest bid without a care for what happened to the club, Williams and Pulis spent money like lottery winners, and in Lai we had someone who had absolutely no idea about football and couldn't run a bath, let alone an established club like WBA.

The concern for me is that I don't think we have hit the bottom at the moment, we have a long way to fall yet......

The idea that Lai could have done nothing to prevent this from happening though is complete nonsense.

Lai actually doing nothing for 6.5 years that has caused this.

People leave etc that's fine. That's what should happen at clubs. Move things around. Implement new ideas, bring in fresh faces, come up with new strategies.

Lai did nothing at all other than turn his back.

[skyclad99]

The idea that Lai could have done nothing to prevent this from happening though is complete nonsense.

Lai actually doing nothing for 6.5 years that has caused this.

People leave etc that's fine. That's what should happen at clubs. Move things around. Implement new ideas, bring in fresh faces, come up with new strategies.

Lai did nothing at all other than turn his back.

He clearly doesn't understand football and has absolutely no idea how to run a club, or business for that matter. I agree with you gaz, he has done nothing, but apparently he was the man to take us forward according to business boy......

but hey we got a free drink out of him

[baggiejohn]

The idea that Lai could have done nothing to prevent this from happening though is complete nonsense.

Lai actually doing nothing for 6.5 years that has caused this.

People leave etc that's fine. That's what should happen at clubs. Move things around. Implement new ideas, bring in fresh faces, come up with new strategies.

Lai did nothing at all other than turn his back.

All business people make mistakes, what we needed was some investment, for whatever reason, Lai is either unwilling or unable to provide that.

[gazberg]

He clearly doesn't understand football and has absolutely no idea how to run a club, or business for that matter. I agree with you gaz, he has done nothing, but apparently he was the man to take us forward according to business boy......

but hey we got a free drink out of him

A scarf too as well or did I imagine that?

All business people make mistakes, what we needed was some investment, for whatever reason, Lai is either unwilling or unable to provide that.

No ones perfect John I fully agree but this guy is a walking disaster. He paid no attention to his investment and he's going to lose a fortune at some point. I hope for the sake of our club that it is sooner rather than later.

[skyclad99]

A scarf too as well or did I imagine that?

No ones perfect John I fully agree but this guy is a walking disaster. He paid no attention to his investment and he's going to lose a fortune at some point. I hope for the sake of our club that it is sooner rather than later.

Away fans only I think, I certainly never got one.....

I don't believe there was ever going to be investment as such, that was made clear from the start with the running of the club, when it was said that nothing will change with the way we would be run.....the fact that China stopped money leaving the country for football was inconvenient but also a very easy excuse to cite regarding the lack of investment.

[gazberg]

Away fans only I think, I certainly never got one.....

I don't believe there was ever going to be investment as such, that was made clear from the start with the running of the club, when it was said that nothing will change with the way we would be run.....the fact that China stopped money leaving the country for football was inconvenient but also a very easy excuse to cite regarding the lack of investment.

I think it was Lepkowski who said it best. Lai came in claiming to be similar to Jeremy Peace however while he made no investment unlike.Peace he also made no time for the club which has brought us to this point.

[skyclad99]

I think it was Lepkowski who said it best. Lai came in claiming to be similar to Jeremy Peace however while he made no investment unlike.Peace he also made no time for the club which has brought us to this point.

They could not be further apart to be honest, the only thing they have in common is that they have both borrowed money from the club and not paid it back

[gazberg]

They could not be further apart to be honest, the only thing they have in common is that they have both borrowed money from the club and not paid it back

Very true

[SmethDan]

Has anyone checked on Ron? Just wondering to myself what our finger on the pulse CEO makes of all this. Must have come as a bolt out of the blue considering he had every faith the money was going to be in the club's bank account by New Year's Eve just gone. Dare say he'll be communicating his feelings before the day is out. Now where did I leave that fresh oxygen bottle?......

[skyclad99]

Has anyone checked on Ron? Just wondering to myself what our finger on the pulse CEO makes of all this. Must have come as a bolt out of the blue considering he had every faith the money was going to be in the club's bank account by New Year's Eve just gone. Dare say he'll be communicating his feelings before the day is out. Now where did I leave that fresh oxygen bottle?......

He is looking like a bit of a muppet at the moment really isn't he. If I was him I would be scouring the 'Situations vacant' ads.....

[gazberg]

I don't think Ron will be too worried. He's here for the salary for as long as he can ride it out I'd imagine.

[NJS]

If I understand Overseas Baggie correctly, the conditions that an outfit like MSD would have put on the loan means that Lai/Holdings cannot siphon any more money out of the Group without paying them back some or all of the £20M loan - although (via compliant Ken) he might be able to make some on player sales to clubs with friendly international owners?

If  we don't get promoted, which seems most likely, then Lai will sell, or MSD will claim it as a secured asset and look for a buyer.  The Times reported that a lot of US people are interested in buying EFL clubs so this is not an unlikely outcome given that the sale will be at a knockdown price. 

If we do get promoted then Lai might hang on thinking he can turn the club into a Euro Champions League cash cow.  He seems to be that ignorant of football business over here. 

In my view, promotion would just prolong the agony.     

[Standaman]

It is difficult to know exactly where things stand at the moment. The accounts just released cover the period up to the end of last season. We made an operating loss but the sale turned that into a profit of £171,000 through the sale of Pereira.

The wage bill has not dropped significantly but the the parachute payments drop by about £7m in the second year. It is difficult to see the operating loss being lower than last year against that there is the sale of Robinson for £1.5m.

The auditors comments are telling. We have already drawn down the MDH loan so that money is currently being used, the auditors cannot see saleable assets which we can sell to cover our current trading losses nor is it likely we will be able to get another commercial loan.

Without an injection of fresh capital we might start to have major cash flow problems as early as this summer. Expect wages to be delayed payments to Inland Revenue delayed, you know the drill.

Gourlay will saying that he is optimistic that we can turn things round as the bailiffs remove his office furniture although given that MDH have a charge on everything he will be spared that particular indignity. 

Promotion this year fixes this but we have to make a better fist of our season in the Premier League or will be back here in a few short years time.

At this point if we drop out of the race for promotion this season the logical thing to do is put the club into administration so the 12 point deduction does not mean relegation. The numbers simply don't add up after the end of this season.

[skyclad99]

It is difficult to know exactly where things stand at the moment. The accounts just released cover the period up to the end of last season. We made an operating loss but the sale turned that into a profit of £171,000 through the sale of Pereira.

The wage bill has not dropped significantly but the the parachute payments drop by about £7m in the second year. It is difficult to see the operating loss being lower than last year against that there is the sale of Robinson for £1.5m.

The auditors comments are telling. We have already drawn down the MDH loan so that money is currently being used, the auditors cannot see saleable assets which we can sell to cover our current trading losses nor is it likely we will be able to get another commercial loan.

Without an injection of fresh capital we might start to have major cash flow problems as early as this summer. Expect wages to be delayed payments to Inland Revenue delayed, you know the drill.

Gourlay will saying that he is optimistic that we can turn things round as the bailiffs remove his office furniture although given that MDH have a charge on everything he will be spared that particular indignity. 

Promotion this year fixes this but we have to make a better fist of our season in the Premier League or will be back here in a few short years time.

At this point if we drop out of the race for promotion this season the logical thing to do is put the club into administration so the 12 point deduction does not mean relegation. The numbers simply don't add up after the end of this season.

Well thats cheered me up no end......

[baggiejohn]

It is difficult to know exactly where things stand at the moment. The accounts just released cover the period up to the end of last season. We made an operating loss but the sale turned that into a profit of £171,000 through the sale of Pereira.

The wage bill has not dropped significantly but the the parachute payments drop by about £7m in the second year. It is difficult to see the operating loss being lower than last year against that there is the sale of Robinson for £1.5m.

The auditors comments are telling. We have already drawn down the MDH loan so that money is currently being used, the auditors cannot see saleable assets which we can sell to cover our current trading losses nor is it likely we will be able to get another commercial loan.

Without an injection of fresh capital we might start to have major cash flow problems as early as this summer. Expect wages to be delayed payments to Inland Revenue delayed, you know the drill.

Gourlay will saying that he is optimistic that we can turn things round as the bailiffs remove his office furniture although given that MDH have a charge on everything he will be spared that particular indignity. 

Promotion this year fixes this but we have to make a better fist of our season in the Premier League or will be back here in a few short years time.

At this point if we drop out of the race for promotion this season the logical thing to do is put the club into administration so the 12 point deduction does not mean relegation. The numbers simply don't add up after the end of this season.

Stan, I haven't seen the accounts yet, they're not yet on the companies house website, but the statement on the club OS says we made a £5.4 million profit?

It also claimed that wages fell from £76.9 million to £42.9 million?

[LiamTheBaggie]

The auditors comments are telling. We have already drawn down the MDH loan so that money is currently being used, the auditors cannot see saleable assets which we can sell to cover our current trading losses nor is it likely we will be able to get another commercial loan.

And this point in question made by the auditors is why posters like yourself, Baggies and Dan have been so vehemently opposed to our short term approach to recruitment and why our scouting needed an overhaul.

Because we have lived from day to day we now find ourselves in a position without any sellable assets that could bring much needed revenue into the club.

In our previous seasons in this division we had the likes of Kamara, Koumas, Davies, Morrison, Brunt, Mulumbu, Dorrans, Olsson who could all have been traded for a substantial return.

This time we've had Pereira and Robinson. The likes of O'Shea and Griffiths aren't going to bring in the reddies we need. Wallace and Swift are in the post peak years and with limited money in the Championship are not going to court suitors elsewhere because they would have done so already. 

[Albion79]

Thanks for the replies with the information and summaries, its really helpful to people like me who dont know much about these type of things.

It sounds like Lai is hanging on for the gravy train that is the premier league, the worry would be if we got there he would possibly price us out of any buyers by trying to get as much of his money back.

Am i right in thinking administration would then start affecting day to say staff at the club, and other business (such as suppliers) getting their money back?

Unbelievable that 10 years ago we were heldup as the model club.

[tommcneill]

BBC report up saying club have said that the loan is 'guaranteed to be paid back' regardless of the auditors actions

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65127784

[Standaman]

Stan, I haven't seen the accounts yet, they're not yet on the companies house website, but the statement on the club OS says we made a £5.4 million profit?

It also claimed that wages fell from £76.9 million to £42.9 million?

No I haven't seen them either. The figures I quoted were from the Mat Slater article. Accepting the figures on the O/S the operating losses were roughly £12m and that turned into a profit through sale of Pereira.

The fall in wages is largely due to the flex down clauses in the player contracts they don't fall further in year 2 if the club does not get promotion. The first year parachute payments are about £44m which covers the wage bill but we still made an operating loss of £12m.

The 2nd year parachute payments drop to £35m but I can't see any significant reduction in our wage bill. The current loss by any logic has to be significantly greater than that posted for last year.

Against that we have a loan of £20m which we have already started to drawdown. The interest rate is currently 14.9% variable which basically means across 4 years the loan will cost between £26m and £30m depending on how it is structured. To put that into context our total income from next season our will be somewhere around £30 to £35m.

Without a significant Capital injection we are basically dead.

[paulosull]

Has Ron the come out of bunker to make a statement? And what is Lia’s end game? As I can’t see him recovering a fraction of investment. Read article that valued club at 70 million with all outstanding loans of 32 million. Author believed loans were an inhibitory factor for any takeover in short term but said club would have plenty of suitors if it went into administration.