[liverbaggie]

Well with Swansea they've certainly go backwards in terms of their 'strategy' and I think we'll do the same. I don't think their modern infrastructure is too relevant either if you've got an owner who doesn't invest. Ultimately, you'll go backwards regardless.

The one thing I'd say about Lai is that he could have banked more money if needed. He could have sold Johnstone last year for £5-10 million, perhaps done similar with Diangana and Grant. I've always maintained that his 'policies' aren't good but we're not at that point just yet where the real penny pinching begins. Regardless, the next few years will be bleak.

How could he have legally taken money out of the club via player sales?
Do you mean more loans?

[baggiejohn]

How could he have legally taken money out of the club via player sales?
Do you mean more loans?

Player registrations are considered assets, which he could convert to cash by selling.

Monies gained from the sale of player registrations are shown as income on the profit & loss account.

So.................he could then show an operating profit & subsequently declare a dividend.

However.........................Selling player registrations wil..........

a) Make the team less competitive

b) Reduce the asset & subsequent sale value of the football club.

& therefore be counter productive.

If it's correct that Lai paid, around £170 million for West Bromwich Albion Holdings, then there is no chance he will get anything like that amount back by taking out bits  & bobs, especially if it jeopardises chances of promotion.

[bidbaggie]

Yes, I've got that now.

It looks as though there is a provision in the football club accounts of around £13 million to pay future creditor commitments. This looks as though it's not been included in Group accounts.

So, in reality, there's about £11 million in retained earnings, have I understood that correctly?

hi John

sorry for the late reply but really busy at work at the moment. If there is a provision, this would have already been taken into account within the 24m so wouldnt need to come off this in future periods - it would just be a cash movement when paid. The means the full amount could be distributed as a dividend subject to companies house requirements.

As i said before, i havent had chance to look at the accounts in any great detail so if you want to point me to the paragraph/note then i can have a closer look

[baggiejohn]

hi John

sorry for the late reply but really busy at work at the moment. If there is a provision, this would have already been taken into account within the 24m so wouldnt need to come off this in future periods - it would just be a cash movement when paid. The means the full amount could be distributed as a dividend subject to companies house requirements.

As i said before, i havent had chance to look at the accounts in any great detail so if you want to point me to the paragraph/note then i can have a closer look

Comparing equity in group & football club accounts, there is a difference of £13 milllion in retained earnings.
Group have declared £24 million, the football club £11 million.

The £16 million provisioned for creditors due more than 12 months appears in the balance sheet for the football club accounts, but not in group accounts.

Page 16 Group

Page 15 Football Club

[ashdoy]

I say this all the time on threads like this....

But can somebody, really simply, explain all this to me (lol, sorry!).

I am awful with things like this.

All I can see at the moment is;

Lai owns WBA
Lai owns another company, lets say XYZ.

Lai lends XYZ £7m from WBA.

Lai doesnt pay this loan back.

WBA make profit. Lai pays himself £7m.

Lai then writes off the loan with this £7m so in affect WBA are £7m down?

Am i right?

[gazberg]

WBA aren't down as such, he is withholding money from the clubs available finances so that the books show a profit.

The club is not in financial trouble currently, Lai makes it seem that way.

The actions he takes to make that profit though will result, sooner or later, in a weakening of the team unless we hit jackpot on some free/cheap transfers.

Possibly why we went for the free signings and higher wages type deals we have this season.



EDIT - In simple terms if we have a total budget of 50m (purely an example number) for the season for everything, he will only authorise the club to use 45m of it. Thus ensuring 5m has been put aside to black the books.  If we have to go without a player we needed to get promoted in order for that to happen then that is fine with Lai.

[bidbaggie]

I say this all the time on threads like this....

But can somebody, really simply, explain all this to me (lol, sorry!).

I am awful with things like this.

All I can see at the moment is;

Lai owns WBA
Lai owns another company, lets say XYZ.

Lai lends XYZ £7m from WBA.

Lai doesnt pay this loan back.

WBA make profit. Lai pays himself £7m.

Lai then writes off the loan with this £7m so in affect WBA are £7m down?

Am i right?

In a nutshell yes!

But it doesn’t have to be off profits made post the most recent accounts as there is already brought forward accumulated profits to do this

[johnny Cash]

We are down. Ashdoy's simple explanation is correct.

At present you could argue we are down in liquidity only as we have a debtor, but given the expected sequence of events  I would consider us to be down already. How the business creates the profit to pay the dividend for those events materialize doesnt really matter when purely considering if the club is down or not.

[LiamTheBaggie]

Any profit that this football club makes is not because we're remarkably well run or sustainable. The profit would imply that is the case but it is simply not true.

This football club across many formats has been severely underfunded to the extent our cost cutting has now seen us try to rid ourselves of relatively high earners without any replacements being sought.

This is manufacturing a profit...

Lai might not pay himself any dividends (or however it works) to repay the money he owes us but that does not account for the sheer neglect that he has shown this football club to preserve his own failing businesses in China.

[Sted1990]

Sadly, we're just another business to him and probably his strongest asset when you consider the state of the housing market in the far east, and the knock-on effect of Evergrande defaulting.

He is the owner and can do what he wants basically, sad but true.

We have to be promoted so he can sell us for a flat fee that increases based on prem survival. That is the only hope for him and for us.

Without premier league football within 2 years our whole existence is at risk.

[gazberg]

Hoping S4A kick into action soon.

25000 Lai Out t shirts wpould be good

[darbolina]

Any profit that this football club makes is not because we're remarkably well run or sustainable. The profit would imply that is the case but it is simply not true.

This football club across many formats has been severely underfunded to the extent our cost cutting has now seen us try to rid ourselves of relatively high earners without any replacements being sought.

This is manufacturing a profit...

Lai might not pay himself any dividends (or however it works) to repay the money he owes us but that does not account for the sheer neglect that he has shown this football club to preserve his own failing businesses in China.

This is the real issue for me - Lai's solution to release money from the club  seems to be to basically starve it of money and to cream off what he can each year via loans, dividends etc. Does he also take a wage for the privilege of running our club into the ground which would be another way to bleed us dry!?

It's getting difficult to separate paying money to the club and putting it directly into Lai's pockets for me now!   

[WBArgo]

Player registrations are considered assets, which he could convert to cash by selling.

Monies gained from the sale of player registrations are shown as income on the profit & loss account.

So.................he could then show an operating profit & subsequently declare a dividend.

However.........................Selling player registrations wil..........

a) Make the team less competitive

b) Reduce the asset & subsequent sale value of the football club.

& therefore be counter productive.

If it's correct that Lai paid, around £170 million for West Bromwich Albion Holdings, then there is no chance he will get anything like that amount back by taking out bits  & bobs, especially if it jeopardises chances of promotion.

Yeah, I completely agree with this point. I believe Lai thought he could invest in the Premier League, stay up relatively easy like previous years, earn a yearly profit and then sell at profit when/if the TV money went up. Overall, it sounds like a solid idea but obviously relegation and reality changed this.

Since then, he's taken out bits and bobs as you say which are tiny in comparison to the money he paid. Still, you'd rather be down £160 million than £170 million I guess, especially during a difficult financial period at home. Maybe this is wishful thinking but if he continues a similar strategy next year and then sells at a loss after the parachute/player money has been withdrawn then we could see the back of him. I doubt this will happen but here's to hoping.

[graka]

Hoping S4A kick into action soon.

25000 Lai Out t shirts wpould be good

50000 West Brom families willing to invest 2 grand each would be better to offer him a way out
Owned by the supporters

[gazberg]

50000 West Brom families willing to invest 2 grand each would be better to offer him a way out
Owned by the supporters

I agree but i think he wants more than that from what was reported.

[graka]

I agree but i think he wants more than that from what was reported.

At this moment in time that’s more than generous

[gazberg]

At this moment in time that’s more than generous

Again i agree but he's so clueless or arrogant he won't care

[Droitwich Baggie]

I feel that he is a blood sucker.

[tex]

I feel that he is a sucker.

[mateinone]

Lai has been a disaster from the moment he bought the club, it was and always will be only a financial investment for him, it was never about improving us as a club.
He would go close to the worse owner (yeap even including Ashley at NUFC) that has bought a Premier League club this century.

It would not surprise me to see him drain every last cent out of this club. I know that no one can control whether he owns the club or not, but we need him out as soon as possible. Sorry pretty emotional today, just so sick of watching us go from weakness to weakness year on year and needed a bit of venting today.

[ttree30]

Lai has been a disaster from the moment he bought the club, it was and always will be only a financial investment for him, it was never about improving us as a club.
He would go close to the worse owner (yeap even including Ashley at NUFC) that has bought a Premier League club this century.

It would not surprise me to see him drain every last cent out of this club. I know that no one can control whether he owns the club or not, but we need him out as soon as possible. Sorry pretty emotional today, just so sick of watching us go from weakness to weakness year on year and needed a bit of venting today.

Completely understand. I feel sick.

He’s not “asset stripping.” He’s just destroying the assets.

Don’t know how he’s managed to be an alleged tycoon, because he seems utterly incompetent. It’s China - perhaps it’s just a case of who he knows….

[SmethDan]

Potentially unpopular opinion but I don't believe he paid that much for us so he could struggle to appear more incompetent with each passing decision. I think he and his co backers were in possession of more money than they knew what to do with at a time of Chinese expansion and made a really stupid decision.

Let's face it. There's absolutely no way in hell he/they are/were capable of enough joined up thinking to have predicted a change in Chinese overseas policy and a pandemic which required the purchase of our club as a means of keeping the rest of his/their portfolio afloat.

This may be a naive approach on things but I remain to be convinced otherwise. At the same time I'm not entirely sure they were familiar with the term 'relegation' and what that could involve either.

The alternative being he/they are soothsayer business geniuses with savant like qualities and our current circumstances are but a blip ahead of worldwide football domination. And I think we can all agree that's very definitely not the case  .

[WBArgo]

Potentially unpopular opinion but I don't believe he paid that much for us so he could struggle to appear more incompetent with each passing decision. I think he and his co backers were in possession of more money than they knew what to do with at a time of Chinese expansion and made a really stupid decision.

Let's face it. There's absolutely no way in hell he/they are/were capable of enough joined up thinking to have predicted a change in Chinese overseas policy and a pandemic which required the purchase of our club as a means of keeping the rest of his/their portfolio afloat.

This may be a naive approach on things but I remain to be convinced otherwise. At the same time I'm not entirely sure they were familiar with the term 'relegation' and what that could involve either.

The alternative being he/they are soothsayer business geniuses with savant like qualities and our current circumstances are but a blip ahead of worldwide football domination. And I think we can all agree that's very definitely not the case  .

I agree with this and don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. Back when he bought us things were very different in China and the world was a wealthier, more optimistic place. From what I gather, he thought he could continue Peace's (difficult) strategy of keeping us in the Premier League and make more money as the Premier League cash kept growing every now and then.

Obviously, football isn't like that and reality is always harder than ideas. Since then though, he's resorted to paying dividends and the like which hasn't helped the club. So, I don't think he had a conspiracy to originally ruin the club but it's almost irrelevant now due to the way it's panned out.

[skyclad99]

Potentially unpopular opinion but I don't believe he paid that much for us so he could struggle to appear more incompetent with each passing decision. I think he and his co backers were in possession of more money than they knew what to do with at a time of Chinese expansion and made a really stupid decision.

Let's face it. There's absolutely no way in hell he/they are/were capable of enough joined up thinking to have predicted a change in Chinese overseas policy and a pandemic which required the purchase of our club as a means of keeping the rest of his/their portfolio afloat.

This may be a naive approach on things but I remain to be convinced otherwise. At the same time I'm not entirely sure they were familiar with the term 'relegation' and what that could involve either.

The alternative being he/they are soothsayer business geniuses with savant like qualities and our current circumstances are but a blip ahead of worldwide football domination. And I think we can all agree that's very definitely not the case  .

I tend to agree with this. Think they were sold the dream by the 'lifelong Albion fan' and saw all the PL money coming in on the books. I do remember a statement early on saying that nothing would change after the takeover, so we all immediately resigned ourselves to the fact that we would not be shelling out big bucks for players. The appointment of Williams and the manipulation of the capped one didn't help the cause, and as you say no one could have predicted the global pandemic.

I do wonder what the set up is with Lai; as I understand it he is the front for a consortium of investors. So was he just put forward or did he actively canvass for investors promising a big return from the 'English Greed League' ? If I was an investor I would not be happy so I do wonder if he is syphoning money off to appease them.

All I will say is that a true 'lifelong Albion fan' would never do this to his club.

[baggiejohn]

Potentially unpopular opinion but I don't believe he paid that much for us so he could struggle to appear more incompetent with each passing decision. I think he and his co backers were in possession of more money than they knew what to do with at a time of Chinese expansion and made a really stupid decision.

Let's face it. There's absolutely no way in hell he/they are/were capable of enough joined up thinking to have predicted a change in Chinese overseas policy and a pandemic which required the purchase of our club as a means of keeping the rest of his/their portfolio afloat.

This may be a naive approach on things but I remain to be convinced otherwise. At the same time I'm not entirely sure they were familiar with the term 'relegation' and what that could involve either.

The alternative being he/they are soothsayer business geniuses with savant like qualities and our current circumstances are but a blip ahead of worldwide football domination. And I think we can all agree that's very definitely not the case  .

Tend to agree Dan, I also think he could have bought a higher profile european football club than WBAFC for £170 million.

The stupid decision he made was to buy a business he knew nothing about, whatever he paid for it.