[Albionic]

I think people under-estimate just how much spare cash you need to compete in the filth that is the greed league. You could skin out every Albion fan in the country and still be worse off than we are now!
Remember, villa spent almost £300m and only escaped relegation due to a broken watch (allegedly).

If Lai goes, the next incumbent has to be very, very, very rich, to make any difference whatsoever.

Fosun are getting inbreds into chumps league remember, and whats their investment to date? 

[beechyboy90]

I think people under-estimate just how much spare cash you need to compete in the filth that is the greed league. You could skin out every Albion fan in the country and still be worse off than we are now!
Remember, villa spent almost £300m and only escaped relegation due to a broken watch (allegedly).

If Lai goes, the next incumbent has to be very, very, very rich, to make any difference whatsoever.

But i would rather the fans own the club and run it in a self sustaining way and promote youth and have some kind of stategy than somebody with no interest in the club run it badly and suck the life out of it

[baggiejohn]

But i would rather the fans own the club and run it in a self sustaining way and promote youth and have some kind of stategy than somebody with no interest in the club run it badly and suck the life out of it

Nice idea for non league, but to compete effectively at elite level, you need money.

Newcastle United have just been bought by a country, it's difficult to see a fan's consortium competing at that level.

I thought the protest for tomorrow was based on Lai's lack of investment, the club is being run on self sustaining lines, but that's not enough for the fans?

[johnny Cash]

But i would rather the fans own the club and run it in a self sustaining way and promote youth and have some kind of stategy than somebody with no interest in the club run it badly and suck the life out of it

Fan ownership is a nice idea, but could easily be more of a mess than some think it is now. In fact, the odds of it being worse are probably quite high. 

[Hull Baggie]

Fosun are getting inbreds into chumps league remember, and whats their investment to date?

Since the takeover in 2016 Fosun have spent £414M, the majority of that; £359.4 M has been spent in the PL.

[LiamTheBaggie]

I thought the protest for tomorrow was based on Lai's lack of investment, the club is being run on self sustaining lines, but that's not enough for the fans?

There is no defence for him which your post appears to imply.

He has taken an established Premier League football club and now look at us.

Fans have every right to make their feelings known regarding the way this club has been ran. 

Good luck to them.

[baggiejohn]

There is no defence for him which your post appears to imply.

He has taken an established Premier League football club and now look at us.

Fans have every right to make their feelings known regarding the way this club has been ran. 

Good luck to them.

On a point of order, I understood that, in the forum rules, editing quotes is not allowed, the full quote has to be displayed.

Going back to my original post in response to this post from Beechyboy90

"Quote from: beechyboy90 on Today at 05:24:17 AM
But i would rather the fans own the club and run it in a self sustaining way and promote youth and have some kind of stategy than somebody with no interest in the club run it badly and suck the life out of it"



I said

"Nice idea for non league, but to compete effectively at elite level, you need money.

Newcastle United have just been bought by a country, it's difficult to see a fan's consortium competing at that level.

I thought the protest for tomorrow was based on Lai's lack of investment, the club is being run on self sustaining lines, but that's not enough for the fans?"


Just to demonstrate that the club is already being run on self sustaining lines, therefore it's unlikely that a fan consortium would make any difference.
In fact, as others have said, if the consortium funds were limited to buying Lai out, where would the money come from to improve us?

IMO, Lai has been badly advised, but the move to flatten the management structure shows that he recognises that, & there appears to be a strategy of development, hence the 4 year contract for VI.

I think I'd like to see how that progresses for a while.

[seteefeet]

Since the takeover in 2016 Fosun have spent £414M, the majority of that; £359.4 M has been spent in the PL.

So that's £200m (what Lai wants) to buy + £80m per year? To hover round midtable.

If we're having a whip round, to buy Lai out....... we're going to need a bigger hat.

[skyclad99]

On a point of order, I understood that, in the forum rules, editing quotes is not allowed, the full quote has to be displayed.

Going back to my original post in response to this post from Beechyboy90

"Quote from: beechyboy90 on Today at 05:24:17 AM
But i would rather the fans own the club and run it in a self sustaining way and promote youth and have some kind of stategy than somebody with no interest in the club run it badly and suck the life out of it"



I said

"Nice idea for non league, but to compete effectively at elite level, you need money.

Newcastle United have just been bought by a country, it's difficult to see a fan's consortium competing at that level.

I thought the protest for tomorrow was based on Lai's lack of investment, the club is being run on self sustaining lines, but that's not enough for the fans?"


Just to demonstrate that the club is already being run on self sustaining lines, therefore it's unlikely that a fan consortium would make any difference.
In fact, as others have said, if the consortium funds were limited to buying Lai out, where would the money come from to improve us?

IMO, Lai has been badly advised, but the move to flatten the management structure shows that he recognises that, & there appears to be a strategy of development, hence the 4 year contract for VI.

I think I'd like to see how that progresses for a while.

Two points on your post John

1. flattening the management structure stinks of cost saving and nothing else. I am led to believe that quite a few posts within the club have either been merged, or just disappeared.

2. I can see no real evidence of any strategy for the club at the moment. Giving a manager a four year contract is all well and good but is not a strategy unless the owner backs him in the forthcoming transfer window.

Like many others I am happy to see VI get a transfer window, but if we find ourselves struggling to hang on to a play off place by March that I will have certainly seen enough to work out that there is no real plan in place. What I do not get is that some are saying VI needs 3 or 4 transfer windows. I thought that when he was at Barnsley his impact was almost immediate.

[MarkW]

Two points on your post John

1. flattening the management structure stinks of cost saving and nothing else. I am led to believe that quite a few posts within the club have either been merged, or just disappeared.

2. I can see no real evidence of any strategy for the club at the moment. Giving a manager a four year contract is all well and good but is not a strategy unless the owner backs him in the forthcoming transfer window.

Like many others I am happy to see VI get a transfer window, but if we find ourselves struggling to hang on to a play off place by March that I will have certainly seen enough to work out that there is no real plan in place. What I do not get is that some are saying VI needs 3 or 4 transfer windows. I thought that when he was at Barnsley him impact was almost immediate.

Barnsley generally had a squad suited to playing VI's kind of football, because they recruit their managers based on a blueprint of roughly continuing style.

We on the other hand, flit between styles and end up with a hodge-podge of a squad that has glaring weaknesses and is overstocked on other areas.

[seteefeet]

Two points on your post John

1. flattening the management structure stinks of cost saving and nothing else. I am led to believe that quite a few posts within the club have either been merged, or just disappeared.

2. I can see no real evidence of any strategy for the club at the moment. Giving a manager a four year contract is all well and good but is not a strategy unless the owner backs him in the forthcoming transfer window.

Like many others I am happy to see VI get a transfer window, but if we find ourselves struggling to hang on to a play off place by March that I will have certainly seen enough to work out that there is no real plan in place. What I do not get is that some are saying VI needs 3 or 4 transfer windows. I thought that when he was at Barnsley him impact was almost immediate.

It's the interpretation of this that is key.
Is it working with Val and recruitment to try and get the best possible players within the available budget? With the size of the budget is dictated by club finances.
or
Is it bolster the budget by supplementing with external cash?

If it's the former then I expect that is what will happen.
If it's the latter, then it almost certainly won't.

[seteefeet]

Barnsley generally had a squad suited to playing VI's kind of football, because they recruit their managers based on a blueprint of roughly continuing style.

We on the other hand, flit between styles and end up with a hodge-podge of a squad that has glaring weaknesses and is overstocked on other areas.

His successor didn't last long.

[baggiebof]

His successor didn't last long.

But he was the first in four appointments that didn't work.

[seteefeet]

But he was the first in four appointments that didn't work.

Even so, it shows that no process is foolproof.

[Oldbury24]

His successor didn't last long.

I was curious about that (sad but I'm working from home so I take any distraction) and did a bit of googling.  Apparently he wanted to move to a more possesion based game.....and lasted 16 of them. 

[skyclad99]

I was curious about that (sad but I'm working from home so I take any distraction) and did a bit of googling.  Apparently he wanted to move to a more possesion based game.....and lasted 16 of them.

Possession? You mean playing it to feet and accurate passing? The mad fool.......

[Oldbury24]

Possession? You mean playing it to feet and accurate passing? The mad fool.......

Found it .  Quote from one of the players after an early Barnsley win...

"We’re trying to play a bit similar to last year but a bit more passing in spells, not going as long as much, and you could see that. We played out from the back more, into midfield and into the strikers and linked up there.”

......just before they went on a SEVEN game losing sequence.  But at least the defeats would have been more pleasing on the eye 

And in follow up, it appears Barnsley have gone back to the continuity candidate

"It became clear the Reds players were not enamoured with Markus Schopp's direction, leadership, and style of play so if Asbaghi is to stave off relegation to League One with 29 games remaining clarity will be vital, the Swede is known for playing the high-pressing style Barnsley want"

So that is your longer term strategy, albeit one with a few more quid to throw at it here than at Barnsley (not much more mind).  Build a squad to play a high-press style of football (through use of statistics to identify targets suited to that specific style and formation) and identify potential managers for the future that can offer continuity.

And no, there will be no input of cash from the owners which is why Val is confident that he can say he needs three or four windows to shape the squad as it will be on freebies and bargains.   However, he has said from the outset that he will be looking for the right players (for the system) rather than the best, and thus most expensive, players on the market.

It's a big gamble by the owners as it could be a path to Championship mediocrity, but it's a gamble that requires the least financial input so a big tick in the box for them as they've found out chucking cash at the problem (Big Sam SOS) doesn't guarantee success in the amounts we can throw.

[baggiejohn]

Found it .  Quote from one of the players after an early Barnsley win...

"We’re trying to play a bit similar to last year but a bit more passing in spells, not going as long as much, and you could see that. We played out from the back more, into midfield and into the strikers and linked up there.”

......just before they went on a SEVEN game losing sequence.  But at least the defeats would have been more pleasing on the eye 

And in follow up, it appears Barnsley have gone back to the continuity candidate

"It became clear the Reds players were not enamoured with Markus Schopp's direction, leadership, and style of play so if Asbaghi is to stave off relegation to League One with 29 games remaining clarity will be vital, the Swede is known for playing the high-pressing style Barnsley want"

So that is your longer term strategy, albeit one with a few more quid to throw at it here than at Barnsley (not much more mind).  Build a squad to play a high-press style of football (through use of statistics to identify targets suited to that specific style and formation) and identify potential managers for the future that can offer continuity.

And no, there will be no input of cash from the owners which is why Val is confident that he can say he needs three or four windows to shape the squad as it will be on freebies and bargains.   However, he has said from the outset that he will be looking for the right players (for the system) rather than the best, and thus most expensive, players on the market.

It's a big gamble by the owners as it could be a path to Championship mediocrity, but it's a gamble that requires the least financial input so a big tick in the box for them as they've found out chucking cash at the problem (Big Sam SOS) doesn't guarantee success in the amounts we can throw.

Yes, sums up my position on it nicely.

I believe VI's major criteria is character, with skill being secondary, the funding benefit being a by-product.

The right players might be skillful, but skilful players without character won't be the right players.

[johnny Cash]

There is no defence for him which your post appears to imply.

He has taken an established Premier League football club and now look at us.

Fans have every right to make their feelings known regarding the way this club has been ran. 

Good luck to them.

There is a defense though. Regardless of a prolonged period in the top flight (by recent standards) we were always a club on the edge. There is no automatic right in business or in life to have an upward trajectory, which all your competitors are also striving for. Yes many of the decisions under Lai's tenure have worked out badly, but nobody is immune to those risk. I think many underestimate the challenges. 

I'm neither for or against Lai in particular and I dont think he's done much well, but on the flip side I also don't see huge mistakes like some seem to either.

[Oldbury24]

There is a defense though. Regardless of a prolonged period in the top flight (by recent standards) we were always a club on the edge. There is no automatic right in business or in life to have an upward trajectory, which all your competitors are also striving for. Yes many of the decisions under Lai's tenure have worked out badly, but nobody is immune to those risk. I think many underestimate the challenges. 

I'm neither for or against Lai in particular and I dont think he's done much well, but on the flip side I also don't see huge mistakes like some seem to either.

Agreed.  Roland was very shrewd , he sold the club at it's peak value knowing that a decline at some point was inevitable, and had stated previously that we were a mid table championship club over achieving. 

For me the real decline set in at the point Hodgson and more specifically Ashworth left to join England.  It decimated the club in one hit, although Steve Clarke has a short period of success on the back of what they built.  After years of relative success using a DOF model and modest spending JP could see the club losing value after the Pepe Mel fiasco and bought in Pullis to secure his investment.  Pullis did what Pullis does and JP sold before the inevitable fall, pocketing £100 million plus for his trouble.

For me, the owner(s) has done exactly what was promised on arrival in continuing to run us as a self sustaining club, there was no promise of investment!  Roland has proven himself to be a shrewd and ruthless businessman but he wasn't a crook and ensured he sold us to an owner that would not put the club in financial jeopardy. 

At the moment all the owners can be accused of is having a lack of nous and football knowledge.  Admittedly they did try to play a fast one selling Perreira to China and it completely back fired on them and the club, losing us the best part of £15 million.  Big Sam was another pointless waste of money, but there was a logic behind the appointment (he'd never been relegated) even if it was destined to fail. 

I see the appointment of Val as an acknowledgement of their lack of footballing expertise.   He's been given a long contract and the responsibility of rebuilding the squad on a meagre budget.  The owners can't sell as they would lose best part of £100 million and cant/wont invest so they are gambling on Val to bring an element of "money ball" success that was being implemented at Barnsley. 

Brighton and Brentford are currently showing what can be achieved in the PL by a well run club (a certain Mr Ashworth has left his imprint at Brighton) but both of those clubs DO have owners that personally invest, even if not on a lavish level by PL standards. So they are in a better position to cement PL status than we are.

Based on finances alone, with no owner investment, we ARE a mid table champ club reliant on a combination of good management and recruitment to keep us even Yo Yoing. We can only hope that Val keeps us over achieving and that we don't slip further into that mid table mediocrity that JP prophesised all those years ago.

[skyclad99]

Agreed.  Roland was very shrewd , he sold the club at it's peak value knowing that a decline at some point was inevitable, and had stated previously that we were a mid table championship club over achieving. 

For me the real decline set in at the point Hodgson and more specifically Ashworth left to join England.  It decimated the club in one hit, although Steve Clarke has a short period of success on the back of what they built.  After years of relative success using a DOF model and modest spending JP could see the club losing value after the Pepe Mel fiasco and bought in Pullis to secure his investment.  Pullis did what Pullis does and JP sold before the inevitable fall, pocketing £100 million plus for his trouble.

For me, the owner(s) has done exactly what was promised on arrival in continuing to run us as a self sustaining club, there was no promise of investment!  Roland has proven himself to be a shrewd and ruthless businessman but he wasn't a crook and ensured he sold us to an owner that would not put the club in financial jeopardy. 

At the moment all the owners can be accused of is having a lack of nous and football knowledge.  Admittedly they did try to play a fast one selling Perreira to China and it completely back fired on them and the club, losing us the best part of £15 million.  Big Sam was another pointless waste of money, but there was a logic behind the appointment (he'd never been relegated) even if it was destined to fail. 

I see the appointment of Val as an acknowledgement of their lack of footballing expertise.   He's been given a long contract and the responsibility of rebuilding the squad on a meagre budget.  The owners can't sell as they would lose best part of £100 million and cant/wont invest so they are gambling on Val to bring an element of "money ball" success that was being implemented at Barnsley. 

Brighton and Brentford are currently showing what can be achieved in the PL by a well run club (a certain Mr Ashworth has left his imprint at Brighton) but both of those clubs DO have owners that personally invest, even if not on a lavish level by PL standards. So they are in a better position to cement PL status than we are.

Based on finances alone, with no owner investment, we ARE a mid table champ club reliant on a combination of good management and recruitment to keep us even Yo Yoing. We can only hope that Val keeps us over achieving and that we don't slip further into that mid table mediocrity that JP prophesised all those years ago.

Good post 24 but I don't for one second believe that Peace cared about our financial position once he had trousered his money. He said a few untruths when he left and this was all part of his hype.

[Oldbury24]

Good post 24 but I don't for one second believe that Peace cared about our financial position once he had trousered his money. He said a few untruths when he left and this was all part of his hype.

I'm inclined to agree but leave me with something from the good times

[gazberg]

JP sold us to Lai for the good of the club?

Come on mate. He sold us to the person he could get the highest fee from.

[Oldbury24]

JP sold us to Lai for the good of the club?

Come on mate. He sold us to the person he could get the highest fee from.

Did I suggest he did it for the good of the club?  No way, he pocketed £100m plus through some pretty devious financial practise.  I just said he wasn't a crook.  You can't deny that the new owners havn't taken any risks with club finances. 

[gazberg]

Oh he's not a crook, he can sell to who he wants but you said he sold us to the person to ensure the club wouldn't be put in financial jeopardy. The guy is no philanthropist.

He simply sold us to the buyer who would put the most money in his pocket.