Author Topic: Guochuan Lai  (Read 2369575 times)

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skyclad99

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6800 on: January 15, 2021, 11:22:39 AM »
If we're going to criticise Peace for anything, it should be his recommendation of Williams as opposed to the sale itself.

Agreed - that was an absolute disaster, Pulis played him like a pro
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leeiswba

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6801 on: January 15, 2021, 11:25:39 AM »
Valid points Stan - thank you.

My point is that other clubs were available and changing hands at lower prices, albeit with debt attached to them, but also with history and potential.

For a smart businessman Lai seems to have bought a debt free club at an absolutely premium price, a price set by Peace. I realise that Lai did not have to take it, but he did and now we appear to be entering the wilderness years as far as club progression is concerned. If we do go down then I really fear for us, so the Allardyce 'gamble' has to work for all concerned.

To be fair to Peace, if he was approached by Fosun as widely rumoured and he turned them away, then it looks as though he helped the club dodge a bullet, although I suspect that it was more to do with profit margins as opposed to the future development of our club.

My issue with Peace is the way he went about his business, as a result of this we now have an owner who appears to be out of his depth and wanting all of his investment back. Peace put him there and rode off into the sunset. Ironically I don't think that we are any better or worse of with Lai; it would be exactly the same with Peace here. We are well and truly stuck.

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned true fans, we are all true fans but we cannot afford to buy the club sadly [well I cant anyway]. A true fan for me was someone like Sir Jack Hayward, a life long fan who put his money into the club he supported and wanted nothing back. Peace said he was a life long fan too didn't he?   

 

He may have been, if someone asks my mom who she supports she would say West Brom and has all her life but if I didn’t say ‘we have wolves tomorrow’ she wouldn’t know.

On the other hand it might just have been said to keep everyone happy, It’s like Robbie Keane, every team he has ever signed for he’s been a boyhood fan of.

skyclad99

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6802 on: January 15, 2021, 11:29:32 AM »
He may have been, if someone asks my mom who she supports she would say West Brom and has all her life but if I didn’t say ‘we have wolves tomorrow’ she wouldn’t know.

On the other hand it might just have been said to keep everyone happy, It’s like Robbie Keane, every team he has ever signed for he’s been a boyhood fan of.

He said a few things to keep people happy Lee.......
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WorcsWBA

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6803 on: January 15, 2021, 11:41:00 AM »
He bought the club from the people who owned the stock for a price they wanted to sell in the same way any other assest is bought and sold. Putting in additional funds in is not a requirement to generate a return.
Wasn't it the case that Peace found a way to obtain shares along the lines of one of the club's various holding companies itself taking out loans during share offers, rather than using his own money?

As for "a price they wanted to sell", I was one of the small shareholders who had my shares compulsorily purchased for a fixed price, which I believe became possible once he'd acquired a certain percentage (90%?) of all the shares. Judging by what he's been posting of late, the same is probably true for skyclad99. As I recall, small shareholders either had to commit to buying more shares (something I couldn't afford) or we had to sell for the same price as we'd paid for them, but I could be wrong on the latter point. Someone else here who was similarly affected may well remember what happened more clearly than me.

This article may be of interest to anyone who doesn't know of the ins and outs of Peace's acquisition of the club and what he did subsequently. It explains how Peace got control of 60% of the shares for an outlay of £3m, so let's just say that he ended up doing quite nicely out of his eventual sale to Lai!

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6804 on: January 15, 2021, 11:46:49 AM »
Wasn't it the case that Peace found a way to obtain shares along the lines of one of the club's various holding companies itself taking out loans during share offers, rather than using his own money?

As for "a price they wanted to sell", I was one of the small shareholders who had my shares compulsorily purchased for a fixed price, which I believe became possible once he'd acquired a certain percentage (90%?) of all the shares. Judging by what he's been posting of late, the same is probably true for skyclad99. As I recall, small shareholders either had to commit to buying more shares (something I couldn't afford) or we had to sell for the same price as we'd paid for them, but I could be wrong on the latter point. Someone else here who was similarly affected may well remember what happened more clearly than me.

This article may be of interest to anyone who doesn't know of the ins and outs of Peace's acquisition of the club and what he did subsequently. It explains how Peace got control of 60% of the shares for an outlay of £3m!

No offence but it's hardly had any long term affect on you if you can't remember the details bud.

Peace was shady AF imo, from his initial coup to the various loans and share buyouts.  That said he left us in a far better place than he found us and his sale of the club was perfectly above board from both a moral and ethical standpoint. China had an ambitious foreign football policy, which they unfortunately u-turned on.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6805 on: January 15, 2021, 12:33:43 PM »
The Whelan/Hayward/Walker purchases and investment from fans who had already made fortune in other businesses is the oft quoted model. However there a couple of things to note while the Heads of the Family were keen and spent money beyond any reasonable expectation of a return, their families were less inclined and all sold up. Secondly the clubs they supported struggled without the golden tit even when they literally gave them away to their new owners.

Peace never was a fan in the Hayward sense he might have had an affinity to the club but this was always business and one which having dedicated a big chunk of his time to was going to reward him very well. The mistake Lai made was buying what Peace was selling for the price that he was selling it at. That is to some extent his and our shared misfortune.

The various share issues and consolidations that enabled Peace to get his 88% especially the final one pushed the boundaries. However at no point did any other party offer more money. If only a few of the many the multi millionaires in our fanbase had  stepped forward to save the day.



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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6806 on: January 15, 2021, 01:05:11 PM »
I am sorry I don't understand. On the one hand fans in general seem to demand owners invest tens of millions in players and the club infrastructure beyond what the club generates but then whenever they take a profit it is a terrible thing. You cannot call the money they spend on the club an investment if they can't make a profit.
Are you talking about Peace here, or in general ?  Because I cannot see where Peace  invested tens of millions.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6807 on: January 15, 2021, 01:19:58 PM »
No offence but it's hardly had any long term affect on you if you can't remember the details bud.
Comment on Lai/Peace all you like, but I don't need your analysis of the affect things do/don't have on me personally thanks.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6808 on: January 15, 2021, 02:00:13 PM »
Are you talking about Peace here, or in general ?  Because I cannot see where Peace  invested tens of millions.

In general. Peace did not but football in general has hoovered up vast quantities of capital with little or no return. Peace made an absolute mint but the following losses some of which are conservative estimates.

Simon Jordan (Palace £60m)
Randy Lerner (Villa £250m)
Edwin Davies (Bolton £175m)

underline the risks involved.

There are whole bunch of clubs with more owner debt on their books than their assets are worth.

It is the nature of high risk activity the winners are few and far between but the winners are in many instances massively over rewarded. 

« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 02:16:10 PM by Standaman »
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skyclad99

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6809 on: January 15, 2021, 02:13:59 PM »
Wasn't it the case that Peace found a way to obtain shares along the lines of one of the club's various holding companies itself taking out loans during share offers, rather than using his own money?

As for "a price they wanted to sell", I was one of the small shareholders who had my shares compulsorily purchased for a fixed price, which I believe became possible once he'd acquired a certain percentage (90%?) of all the shares. Judging by what he's been posting of late, the same is probably true for skyclad99. As I recall, small shareholders either had to commit to buying more shares (something I couldn't afford) or we had to sell for the same price as we'd paid for them, but I could be wrong on the latter point. Someone else here who was similarly affected may well remember what happened more clearly than me.

This article may be of interest to anyone who doesn't know of the ins and outs of Peace's acquisition of the club and what he did subsequently. It explains how Peace got control of 60% of the shares for an outlay of £3m, so let's just say that he ended up doing quite nicely out of his eventual sale to Lai!

Thanks for the link WorcsWBA - a very good read and the line of 'once Peace was in he brought war with him' is so true.

I did not have shares but I was close to someone who was, so I got it chapter and verse. I have had to look it up online to confirm, but the bottom line was that Peace introduced a share consolidation scheme, where for every 10 shares you held, you now had 1 share. If you only had a couple of shares you had two options, a) buy the required number of shares from someone, or b) sell them to Jeremy. Like yourself, it priced many out of the market and they were forced to sell at the price they paid, whether they liked it or not.

It was an aggressive takeover and was fought at the time without success. There was nothing illegal about it but I cannot see how it was for the benefit of the club, and morally I think it is very much in the grey area.

I do wonder where we would be had Paul Thompson fought him off.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 03:04:07 PM by skyclad99 »
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6810 on: January 15, 2021, 02:22:48 PM »
Thanks for the link WorcsWBA - a very good read and the line of 'once Peace was in he brought war with him' is so true.

I did not have shares but I was close to someone who was, so I got it chapter and verse. I have had to look it up online to confirm, but the bottom line was that Peace introduced a share consolidation scheme, where for every 10 shares you held, you now had 1 share. If you only had a couple of shares you had two options, a) buy the required number of shares from someone, or b) sell the to Jeremy. Like yourself, it priced many out of the market and they were forced to sell at the price they paid, whether they liked it or not.

It was an aggressive takeover and was fought at the time without success. There was nothing illegal about it but I cannot see how it was for the benefit of the club, and morally I think it is very much in the grey area.

I do wonder where we would be had Paul Thompson fought him off.

He walked out on the Albion because of conflict he had with Gary Megson over player recruitment, not because of any conflict with JRP
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skyclad99

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6811 on: January 15, 2021, 02:29:04 PM »
He walked out on the Albion because of conflict he had with Gary Megson over player recruitment, not because of any conflict with JRP

That is referenced in the very last line of the article Colin, and you are absolutely correct. I was more referring to Thompson not deciding to sell up and standing up to Peace.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6812 on: January 15, 2021, 02:29:28 PM »
Comment on Lai/Peace all you like, but I don't need your analysis of the affect things do/don't have on me personally thanks.

No worries Worcs and as I said no offence intended, just seemed to be a long denunciation only to end it with 'I can't really remember'.

You are right of course, I have no idea of your feelings. So please accept my apologies.
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paulosull

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6813 on: January 15, 2021, 02:33:24 PM »
Joke going around at the time was we were the only club where owner was fired by manager.  ;D

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6814 on: January 15, 2021, 02:46:57 PM »
I understand people saying "he was a businessman, I would have done the same", that is fine and it is your view.

My view however is that while he did nothing illegal, he wasn't far off being vulture capitalist who claimed to be a fan, claimed later he would only sell to the right people and who took advantage of the club to make millions.

He didn't gamble buying the club, not in the same way others did, he barely paid anything for it. He swept in riding the Thompson wave following the latter's hard work and went to work hoovering up the rest of the clubs shares at below market value. The people he bullied out of their shares were ordinary fans who had put money in when we were at our lowest and he cared little to make sure these true fans were rewarded for their original sacrifice.

His annual earnings were at one stage one of the highest for a chairman in all of England and despite making millions in his time at the club, he was always looking for his next profit.

By all means, people can say "i would have done the same" but I won't be patting you on the back for it, I want to be rich but I recognise there are morals in life and that I don't feel comfortable treading all over people to get there.

I have no respect for him.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6815 on: January 15, 2021, 02:48:39 PM »
That is referenced in the very last line of the article Colin, and you are absolutely correct. I was more referring to Thompson not deciding to sell up and standing up to Peace.

If I recall correctly Clive, Thompson never shied away from a fight, he had a big boardroom disagreement with Tony Hale the then Chairman and won that decisively to become Chairman.

I was present at the Gala baths in West Bromwich the evening of a Extra Ordinary AGM, when the choice was put to the shareholders, he, Thompson was very popular with the majority of larger and smaller shareholders and it was a no contest in the end.

It does make you wonder though. We will never know and it is what it is unfortunately,
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6816 on: January 15, 2021, 02:57:08 PM »
I did not have shares but I was close to someone who was, so I got it chapter and verse. I have had to look it up online to confirm, but the bottom line was that Peace introduced a share consolidation scheme, where for every 10 shares you held, you now had 1 share. If you only had a couple of shares you had two options, a) buy the required number of shares from someone, or b) sell the to Jeremy. Like yourself, it priced many out of the market and they were forced to sell at the price they paid, whether they liked it or not.
That's it - many thanks for the summary. As you might imagine, that epsiode didn't endear him to me in the slightest, but my low opinion of him isn't solely based on that.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6817 on: January 15, 2021, 02:59:15 PM »
No worries Worcs and as I said no offence intended, just seemed to be a long denunciation only to end it with 'I can't really remember'.

You are right of course, I have no idea of your feelings. So please accept my apologies.
Fair enough. It's not something that I've wanted to remember the ins and outs of really....

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6818 on: January 15, 2021, 03:17:36 PM »
I understand people saying "he was a businessman, I would have done the same", that is fine and it is your view.

My view however is that while he did nothing illegal, he wasn't far off being vulture capitalist who claimed to be a fan, claimed later he would only sell to the right people and who took advantage of the club to make millions.

He didn't gamble buying the club, not in the same way others did, he barely paid anything for it. He swept in riding the Thompson wave following the latter's hard work and went to work hoovering up the rest of the clubs shares at below market value. The people he bullied out of their shares were ordinary fans who had put money in when we were at our lowest and he cared little to make sure these true fans were rewarded for their original sacrifice.

His annual earnings were at one stage one of the highest for a chairman in all of England and despite making millions in his time at the club, he was always looking for his next profit.

By all means, people can say "i would have done the same" but I won't be patting you on the back for it, I want to be rich but I recognise there are morals in life and that I don't feel comfortable treading all over people to get there.

I have no respect for him.

Exactly my feeling Baggies, and that is why I cannot understand the 'Come back Jeremy, all is forgiven' movement.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6819 on: January 15, 2021, 03:41:40 PM »
Professor Simon Chadwick Tweeted

Closing chapters of story about China's push forward-pull back approach to acquiring overseas football clubs are now being written. Chinese government policy has changed, domestic fiscal stringency has become norm since 2017, Beijing decision-makers....

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/ef43ce66-af92-4076-a568-6a5502665cb5
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6820 on: January 15, 2021, 04:06:12 PM »
I understand people saying "he was a businessman, I would have done the same", that is fine and it is your view.

My view however is that while he did nothing illegal, he wasn't far off being vulture capitalist who claimed to be a fan, claimed later he would only sell to the right people and who took advantage of the club to make millions.

He didn't gamble buying the club, not in the same way others did, he barely paid anything for it. He swept in riding the Thompson wave following the latter's hard work and went to work hoovering up the rest of the clubs shares at below market value. The people he bullied out of their shares were ordinary fans who had put money in when we were at our lowest and he cared little to make sure these true fans were rewarded for their original sacrifice.

His annual earnings were at one stage one of the highest for a chairman in all of England and despite making millions in his time at the club, he was always looking for his next profit.

By all means, people can say "i would have done the same" but I won't be patting you on the back for it, I want to be rich but I recognise there are morals in life and that I don't feel comfortable treading all over people to get there.

I have no respect for him.

I agree with most of what you say, he is certainly no saint and the morality of some of what he did is questionable. However it is possible for him to be everything you say, and for us to have made progress as a club.  It might not have been great how he went about getting the shares at times, but we did sort of need fans to give them up to enable us to move forwards.

I believe the law allows majority share holders to do things like that is so very small minority shareholders cannot unreasonably prevent action. Obviously at times this is abused. It also wasn't that shares could only be sold for what had been paid for them (unless only recently bought).

At the time a I think at the time a share was worth about £70-80 so you needed £700 more to get your 10 (which became 1). Again I can understand why people feel aggrieved, but in 2008 if you are holding a £70 single share or two in a football club you probably didn't buy it for an investment, and only really held it for sentimental reasons. 

Many are a little bitter that what was in essence sold for £2,000, 10 years later was taken for £80. Again I understand it but at some point you I think you need to let it go.

I personally wouldn't have done exactly the same. I genuinely believe I would have have left the club with something. I'm not sure what, but i think with £175m I would have left £50m in some way as a legacy. A new stand or two or perhaps training ground /academy improvements. The Johnny cash training ground or Academy and an open arms welcome every match when i wasn't in the Bahamas would have been worth it. 



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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6821 on: January 15, 2021, 07:57:29 PM »
i would have enjoyed seeing Johnny Cash condom machines in the urinals !  I live in hope !
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6822 on: January 15, 2021, 08:16:41 PM »
i would have enjoyed seeing Johnny Cash condom machines in the urinals !  I live in hope !

With a "Ring of Fire" logo - perfect
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6823 on: January 16, 2021, 08:38:24 AM »
If I recall correctly Clive, Thompson never shied away from a fight, he had a big boardroom disagreement with Tony Hale the then Chairman and won that decisively to become Chairman.

I was present at the Gala baths in West Bromwich the evening of a Extra Ordinary AGM, when the choice was put to the shareholders, he, Thompson was very popular with the majority of larger and smaller shareholders and it was a no contest in the end.

It does make you wonder though. We will never know and it is what it is unfortunately,

The 1990's AGMs in West Bromwich were always entertaining, very lively and got quite heated at times and I have to say were very enjoyable in a strange kind of way.

Recall in the late 1990's, buying the Evening Mail on the way home from work and it seemed almost every evening the Sports headline was about the latest crisis from the Albion Boardroom and used to joke with the newspaper seller about what, in his use of phrase, "the crazy sods" had done next.

Also had to smile at one AGM at a time of constant changes in the Boardroom when one Director at the time (who was only there a matter of months) came out with the usual Corporate talk of the future being positive (blah blah blah) at a time when we were struggling at the foot of the Championship and the club was going through its latest period of turmoil, and a shareholder next to me standing up with the Yearly Accounts Report (confirming dire financial figures) in his hand and asking "where in here does it say the futures good" which raised a few laughs in the audience and uncomfortable shifting in their seats of the Board members present (and a wry smile from Brian Little who also attended that meeting as Team Manager).

For all the downsides (and there were a lot!) I do kind of look back at those times through admittedly Rose Tinted Glasses as a time when many club owners were both local and accessable and for all their faults, were for the most part in attendance and did have a handle on what the club meant to the supporters and the community.

Speculation of takeovers inevitably have elements of uncertainty, and as we are all painfully aware from so many examples, can go horribly wrong, but I think we all feel that the present club hierarchy feel distant and remote in virtually every respect.

It's the feeling of detachment, admittedly enhanced by the fact that none of us have been able to attend any matches for months, and the impression that this is unlikely to ever change, that makes me hope that somehow our Owner will find a buyer prepared to strike a deal.

How that would eventually pan out is anyone's guess but I think the vast majority would acknowledge that a parting of the ways is needed.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6824 on: January 16, 2021, 08:41:26 AM »
I knew someone had explained it before hence I asked the question again and to put the asset stripping nonsense to bed.
But it’s one of those phrases (asset stripping)that the people hear and find very easy to throw in to a thread....that they no little about.
This forum can be very amusing at times....my personal favourites being the “why don’t we just spend the 20m”?
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