[LiamTheBaggie]

I may be looking at this naively but not sure what Peace did wrong selling to Lai?

As a fan i think Peace made a number of mistakes from not backing managers to some iffy managerial appointments but not sure the sale to Lai was one of them.

At the time we were an established premier league club, we had a manager in charge in Pulis who although played shocking football at that time was as safe a bet as there was to guarentee premier league football.

He sold to a consortium who as far as i am aware brought us outright for between £170m - £200m, they didnt borrow against the club or take loans out to complete the deal, they paid the money no problem and at a time when the chinese, a huge superpower in the world were trying to get into football.

At that point of sale Peace was rumoured to be an advisor i think, but Lai was the decision maker.

He came in and said business as normal, they didnt say we would go crazy, but what they did do inline with the fact we were an established premier league club was broke our transfer record when signing Burke and also for the first time in our history starting paying players over £100k a week (Krychowiak, Sturridge) and many of us said it was the best squad in our lifetime, me included.

He appointed a supposed steady eddie in John Williams to run things, he then replaced Pulis with a Pardew who again had relative success at clubs similar to us like West Ham, Newcastle and Palace, it wasnt some random unknown mate of mate from China, of course there was probably better options than Pardew but he was an experienced mananger.

However it turned out, it didnt work out with Pardew, the team under performed and John Williams was a disaster, but that is all after Peace left, hindsight is a wonderful thing but all those things listed above seemed pretty safe sensible decisions.

Since then we got relegated, cut our cloth and got promoted again, as i have said i would prefer a long term plan but Lai wants out but not sure three years later Peace can be blamed for that.

Peace is a businessman, if somebody offered me the chance to put little money into a business and make £170m profit, i would say yes! As fans we didnt really suffer for him to be a success, i know Paul Thompson did great things and Peace carried it on, under him we were promoted to the top flight for the first time in my 30 years of going, we became an established topflight club and built a top academy, new training ground and have very nice facilities.

Things could of been different, on the pitch maybe we should of had more ambitious managers who targeted cups, some wanted the Halford extended, i have no doubt there are probably some staff who dont speak highly of him, all things that happen under multi million pound businesses.

There are probably people on here who know more than me but as an everyday fan, i am not sure Peace did much wrong selling to Lai, the appointments after that were where it went wrong but they were all pretty experienced established appointments that just didnt work out.

This is an excellent post that sums up my thoughts perfectly.

We can moan that we do not spend enough but the one season where we did open up the cheque book, we wasted the money and still to this day have failed to recover from it.

[throstle]

Just trawled through the accounts on companies house website, back to accounts for year to June 2016, before the sale.

In the accounts to June 2016, (season 2015/16) there are entries where the club has borrowed from & owed money to the parent company, both more than £3.7 million.

I believe it's likely that Peace used some of the value of his personal shares as a surety against loans to increase his shareholding, but that £3.7 million doesn't appear specifically until the accounts for season 2016/17.

I believe it's more likely be a loan to pay the team of accountants, lawyers & translators from both sides who brokered the deal.

You need to look further back to the accounts for the period when JP made his tender offer for shares in Summer 2014.

The loan of £3.7m was discovered in the filed accounts of WBA Holdings (Peace's company) for the year to 30 June 2015. Holdings is shown as owing £3,716,000 to "group undertakings" (i.e. Club).

[gazberg]

This is an excellent post that sums up my thoughts perfectly.

We can moan that we do not spend enough but the one season where we did open up the cheque book, we wasted the money and still to this day have failed to recover from it.

Poor spending enabled by lack of focus/interest in club. Poor appointments in senior staff. Absolutely beyond insane decision to reward Pulis failures with a umper contract he couldn't believe his luck to be offered and then pretty much let Pulis burn 40m.or whatever with little care or attention paid to his dealings.

If you look at Pulis past records he's always disastrous when given money to spend. 13m for Burke gooood lordyyy. If that single transfer wasn't indicative how little the club mattered to anyone then I don't know what was.

That single summer put the nail in our club for the short term and now he's reaping what he sowed. Unfortunately for us we all dragged down with it.

[Standaman]

I think there are few things that are self evident. In general owners aren't fans. Of the 20 owners in the Premier League maybe 2 or 3 would be genuine fans and probably no more than a handful in the Championship. How many Midlands residents have the wherewithal to buy a £100m assest that returns nothing most years and plough further tens of millions into it to subsidise it's running? Hardly any and I don't think our global reach of 20 to 30 years ago had too many budding billionaires in it that now fancy burning through their fortunes on a vanity project. 

To criticise an owner for not being "Albion through and through" is like owning a dog and complaining it barks.  Peace was never going to vet future owners on the basis they were good for the club and just taking less money does not of itself make them better.

Most "successful" owners  other than the very obvious "big 6" players have two things in common. Firstly they bought clubs in the lower leagues and got them promoted into the Premier League. Some have backed this up with a smart player trading strategies and some continue to subsidise their clubs in the Premier League but the key is buy a target with potential upside.

However this is the same strategy that the likes of Morris and Chansiri have also bought into. If it goes well you are genius and if it goes badly then your are an idiot and a poorer idiot for the experience. Some of the "sucess" is just flat out gambling that came good and how sustainable it is a matter for debate.

Every change of ownership is a gamble Baggies goes with a coin flip in his post I'd price it a 2/1 against and the downside is truly horrible with absolute chancers leading consortiums to buy clubs.

I would truly hate to look back on the Lai years as the calm before the storm.

[baggiejohn]

You need to look further back to the accounts for the period when JP made his tender offer for shares in Summer 2014.

The loan of £3.7m was discovered in the filed accounts of WBA Holdings (Peace's company) for the year to 30 June 2015. Holdings is shown as owing £3,716,000 to "group undertakings" (i.e. Club).

Perhaps I'm not looking in the correct place.

I'm looking at the creditors & debtors in the notes section on the companies house website.

I'm aware that there is more detailed data available for a subscription.

Data on the companies house website specifically mentions two debts both circa £3.7 million, both payable on demand, but one attracts interest at the rate of BoE interest rate plus 5%.

[baggie82]

One thing I've never been able to understand. JP felt he'd taken the club as far as he could and recognised the need for extra revenue and a fresh approach. The football landscape and it's dynamics were changing, he recognised and acknowledged this. So how was a takeover in a changing landscape ever going to work with more of the same that had gone before?

JP wasn't being honest with you, all he cared about was maximising his return. Hence he moved to Jersey to avoid paying capital gains tax on the fortune he made from the deal - remember that next time your reading about no money for public services and school meals.

[PartisanBaggie]

Poor spending enabled by lack of focus/interest in club. Poor appointments in senior staff. Absolutely beyond insane decision to reward Pulis failures with a umper contract he couldn't believe his luck to be offered and then pretty much let Pulis burn 40m.or whatever with little care or attention paid to his dealings.

If you look at Pulis past records he's always disastrous when given money to spend. 13m for Burke gooood lordyyy. If that single transfer wasn't indicative how little the club mattered to anyone then I don't know what was.

That single summer put the nail in our club for the short term and now he's reaping what he sowed. Unfortunately for us we all dragged down with it.

I’m with you Gaz.

The Coates family gave TP a blank chequebook at Stoke City and he squandered an awful lot of money there too.

Sad isn’t it that certain sections of the club are even more frightened of us spending money because the one time (ONE TIME!!) we actually did it things didn’t work out.

That’s life. And football - whether we choose to accept it or not - is driven purely by money.

[gazberg]

There's no real reason to fear spending £40m again (not that we can) It wasn't the amount spent that meant we failed it was the melting pot of the manager, his transfer record, his seniors and an owner that thought the club would be run just fine.

If you don't care for your toys don't expect them to last.

[Tatnam baggie]

The possibility of a takeover in this current climate is very worrying.
Even though I can’t wait to see the back of Lai. Anybody got any info
On the consortium trying to take over at the Albion?

[Tatnam baggie]

Hear are some comments written from a journalist in Falkirk, when this consortium
We’re looking at Falkirk and previously Sunderland.

Consortium details?

Campbell is heading a New York-based consortium with wealthy investors.

The group have links to Asia with the money behind the takeover believed to come from the Far East.

Make of this at your will.

[Gilsey 56]

For me sold to someone who had an interest and willingness to be hands on. Peace didn't slowly create a nice juicy profit by being hands off. He was all over everything and rightly so. It was his investment. He didn't have to pump large sums in so he had to squeeze value from every penny to make us work. Lai walked in and switched off. Then decided to pay men to look after his investment for him because he didn't have an idea. Sadly he picked a bunch of less than talented individuals and has done since imo.

He also could have sold to another group who offered similar values but say 120m to Peace and 40m Ito the club rather than 160m to Peace as an example. None of us have the concrete figures obviously.. it was widely reported such a group existed and offered the above but he declined as he would be 40m worse off. He'd only be looking at making 90-100m from us.

People are frustrated that he said he had the club's best interests at heart when it was clear he couldn't care less as long as he maximised every single last penny he could from WBA. Nothing wrong with that just don't lie about it.

Everyone else will have different views of course. These are just mine.

This just about some uo where I am with it. JP  didn't do us any arm along the way, quite the contrary, the club looked professional in everything that it was doing and the academy was a great move.
He made himself a very tidy profit and sold the club to the person offering the most money I guess.
The only thing that sticks in my throat is the idea he was doing all he could for the club's future, he got us into the position to sell and did it for personal gain.
It is a shame as I'm led to believe that Lai , because of the Chinese restrictions on the movement of monies, cannot finance anything for the club, so we're led to believe.
The time is coming to an end for the Chinese in English football, lets hope we can sell to someone a bit more savvy this time.

[gazberg]

I don't even think anyone would have begrudged him his moment if he was honest about it. I would have respected him more. The nonsense about Lais deal being best for the club was a JP hoodwink one too many for most.

[The Tank]

Peace paid very little for his shares.(possibly nothing after the way he got the club to loan him the funds). 
He took the best part of £1 million a year in dividends or salary.
Then sells for as much as double what the club was worth.   
A true fan would have put a huge proportion of the "profit" back into the club by way of a ground development fund or similar.

[BB74]

Peace paid very little for his shares.(possibly nothing after the way he got the club to loan him the funds). 
He took the best part of £1 million a year in dividends or salary.
Then sells for as much as double what the club was worth.   
A true fan would have put a huge proportion of the "profit" back into the club by way of a ground development fund or similar.

What is a true fan? I consider myself a true fan but i’d happily never step foot in the ground again if it meant walking away with £170m.

[baggie82]

What is a true fan? I consider myself a true fan but i’d happily never step foot in the ground again if it meant walking away with £170m.

You are defending the indefensible. JP was greedy and self interested. Admitting you'd also sell the club down the river to maximise your personal return doesn't make it any better.

[Standaman]

You are defending the indefensible. JP was greedy and self interested. Admitting you'd also sell the club down the river to maximise your personal return doesn't make it any better.

I am sorry I don't understand. On the one hand fans in general seem to demand owners invest tens of millions in players and the club infrastructure beyond what the club generates but then whenever they take a profit it is a terrible thing. You cannot call the money they spend on the club an investment if they can't make a profit.

[overseas baggie]

I believe there was a guaranteed price paid around 160m which was too much to begin with and then other clauses leading upto £200m based on PL status/success etc.

In Lais first full season we bombed out the PL due to awful higher up decisions so it's fair to say there is not much more heading Peaces direction than the initial sum paid which he still made £130m + from.

No - I understand there were no conditional elements to the deal

[gazberg]

No - I understand there were no conditional elements to the deal

I definitely read in one of the main papers around the time there were bonus clauses attached but if you have something more solid i wouldnt argue that.

[leeiswba]

This is what I keep saying, it’s easy telling everyone else what they should do with their money;

Spend all you have but take nothing back....... Oh by the way ‘don’t you dare change the ticket price from £25 to £30 else that’s me done’

 

[skyclad99]

Hang on...

So now JP shouldn’t have maximised his return and is responsible for the lack of public spending and no free school meals...

As with the Allardyce thread I’m out of this one too.

The arguments just get more and more ridiculous

Good morning Tom

He didn't say that though did he? He made a relevant point that JP moved to Jersey to avoid paying tax on his ill gotten gains. In other words, legal tax avoidance.

At least we gave Sam Allardyce a rest yesterday

I think that what is worth bearing in mind is this, at the time we were sold, both Wolverhampton Wanderers and the vile also changed hands. Fosun acquired the wolves in 2016 for £45m, and Lerner sold the vile to the good doctor for £70m. He subsequently discovered the joys of running a football club and in turn procured two billionaires to invest. Now I would have questions about the T&C's of both deals, but in reality Lai could have bought both clubs with his £200m and still have an enormous amount of change.
Whilst we occasionally smile at any misfortune bestowed upon our noisy neighbours, both clubs appear to be in a much better place than us at the moment.

[Standaman]

Good morning Tom

He didn't say that though did he? He made a relevant point that JP moved to Jersey to avoid paying tax on his ill gotten gains. In other words, legal tax avoidance.

At least we gave Sam Allardyce a rest yesterday

I think that what is worth bearing in mind is this, at the time we were sold, both Wolverhampton Wanderers and the vile also changed hands. Fosun acquired the wolves in 2016 for £45m, and Lerner sold the vile to the good doctor for £70m. He subsequently discovered the joys of running a football club and in turn procured two billionaires to invest. Now I would have questions about the T&C's of both deals, but in reality Lai could have bought both clubs with his £200m and still have an enormous amount of change.
Whilst we occasionally smile at any misfortune bestowed upon our noisy neighbours, both clubs appear to be in a much better place than us at the moment.

Lai and associates bought the Peace stake for £188m this valued the club at something in the region of £213m.

Lai bought a club that was cash rich solvent and in the Premier League with near to zero upside potential.

By definition Football clubs are nearly always sold to billionaires because nobody else can afford to buy them so finding a billionaire or large corporation to "invest" is not a good thing because it is pretty much the only type of person or institution that can.

Villa were sold with a mountain of debt quite literally days away from administration. Have the new ownership spent more than £110m on cleaning up the mess they inherited ? Probably.

Fosun only spent £45m on buying Wolves. However but they spent another £38m on acquiring a 15% stake in the Mendes Agency with the option to increase that stake to 30%. The stake in Start SGPS is more valuable to Fosun than Wolves even today. The relationship between the two is host and parasite at the moment it is symbiotic but be in no doubt that Fosun will sell off and move to a new host when the moment is right.   

Both however were bought in the Championship with lots of upside potential. Just getting promoted doubles the club's value overnight. A route it is open to profit. However failure to get promoted turns them into Derby or Sheffield Wednesday. Although Wolves could still be used as a player trading platform in the Championship. 

 

[baggie82]

I am sorry I don't understand. On the one hand fans in general seem to demand owners invest tens of millions in players and the club infrastructure beyond what the club generates but then whenever they take a profit it is a terrible thing. You cannot call the money they spend on the club an investment if they can't make a profit.

JP didn’t invest anything into the club.

[Standaman]

JP didn’t invest anything into the club.

He bought the club from the people who owned the stock for a price they wanted to sell in the same way any other assest is bought and sold. Putting in additional funds in is not a requirement to generate a return.

[skyclad99]

Lai and associates bought the Peace stake for £188m this valued the club at something in the region of £213m.

Lai bought a club that was cash rich solvent and in the Premier League with near to zero upside potential.

By definition Football clubs are nearly always sold to billionaires because nobody else can afford to buy them so finding a billionaire or large corporation to "invest" is not a good thing because it is pretty much the only type of person or institution that can.

Villa were sold with a mountain of debt quite literally days away from administration. Have the new ownership spent more than £110m on cleaning up the mess they inherited ? Probably.

Fosun only spent £45m on buying Wolves. However but they spent another £38m on acquiring a 15% stake in the Mendes Agency with the option to increase that stake to 30%. The stake in Start SGPS is more valuable to Fosun than Wolves even today. The relationship between the two is host and parasite at the moment it is symbiotic but be in no doubt that Fosun will sell off and move to a new host when the moment is right.   

Both however were bought in the Championship with lots of upside potential. Just getting promoted doubles the club's value overnight. A route it is open to profit. However failure to get promoted turns them into Derby or Sheffield Wednesday. Although Wolves could still be used as a player trading platform in the Championship.

Valid points Stan - thank you.

My point is that other clubs were available and changing hands at lower prices, albeit with debt attached to them, but also with history and potential.

For a smart businessman Lai seems to have bought a debt free club at an absolutely premium price, a price set by Peace. I realise that Lai did not have to take it, but he did and now we appear to be entering the wilderness years as far as club progression is concerned. If we do go down then I really fear for us, so the Allardyce 'gamble' has to work for all concerned.

To be fair to Peace, if he was approached by Fosun as widely rumoured and he turned them away, then it looks as though he helped the club dodge a bullet, although I suspect that it was more to do with profit margins as opposed to the future development of our club.

My issue with Peace is the way he went about his business, as a result of this we now have an owner who appears to be out of his depth and wanting all of his investment back. Peace put him there and rode off into the sunset. Ironically I don't think that we are any better or worse of with Lai; it would be exactly the same with Peace here. We are well and truly stuck.

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned true fans, we are all true fans but we cannot afford to buy the club sadly [well I cant anyway]. A true fan for me was someone like Sir Jack Hayward, a life long fan who put his money into the club he supported and wanted nothing back. Peace said he was a life long fan too didn't he?   

 

[TheJacko2000]

If we're going to criticise Peace for anything, it should be his recommendation of Williams as opposed to the sale itself.