Author Topic: Guochuan Lai  (Read 2369604 times)

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johnp

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2225 on: July 05, 2016, 11:01:11 PM »
Baggie82 summed it up perfectly for me . It's 60 years since I first supported the club ; never posted before but feel strongly that Peace could take £50 million pounds for himself , expand Halfords Lane as promised , fill the growing with far cheaper tickets and leave that as a legacy .He is holding the club back for personal gain . For a number of years I've funded family season tickets and given up other things to do so . This season none of my 7 season tickets of last year will be bought . Brighton and Hove Albion , amongst a growing number of clubs now have a higher capacity . With the right price structure our ground would be full . Peace now is the problem , not the answer . Personal greed .

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2226 on: July 05, 2016, 11:02:16 PM »
I went to the trouble a year or so ago of posting comprehensive details around Peace's shares, other shareholders, the structure of how the old and new shares worked and posted it here. But STILL some people spout garbage about Peace and his 'despicable' seizing of control of the club.

The worst mistruth is the one where he apparently stole shares from the poor small shareholders. I was a shareholder under the old system, and I upgraded my shares to a new share. He gave shareholders the option to upgrade to a new A share or money to sell. In doing so he has raised the value of those individual shares to much more than anyone purchased them for. If you didn't have the money to 'upgrade' you were offered far more than you bought them for, and in the space of two years the new shares have increased in value 4/5 times over. And by 'overpricing' the club and 'asking too much' he's also elevated the worth of shares he doesn't own - meaning the 'little shareholders' that remain have even more value.

So unless you're a current shareholder, have been through the company's share holdings or are Jeremy Peace himself, stop making slanderous claims. EVERYTHING has been done above board, as would be done in any business.

No where have I've slandered him nor have I claimed he has done anything illegal, I used to be able to study the accounts when we was listed but your rosy assessment of how the business was conducted you failed to mention the people who could not afford the cost and did want to sell. Now are you also telling me the loan to buy the club JP payed this off himself ?
It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2227 on: July 05, 2016, 11:12:11 PM »
I went to the trouble a year or so ago of posting comprehensive details around Peace's shares, other shareholders, the structure of how the old and new shares worked and posted it here. But STILL some people spout garbage about Peace and his 'despicable' seizing of control of the club.

The worst mistruth is the one where he apparently stole shares from the poor small shareholders. I was a shareholder under the old system, and I upgraded my shares to a new share. He gave shareholders the option to upgrade to a new A share or money to sell. In doing so he has raised the value of those individual shares to much more than anyone purchased them for. If you didn't have the money to 'upgrade' you were offered far more than you bought them for, and in the space of two years the new shares have increased in value 4/5 times over. And by 'overpricing' the club and 'asking too much' he's also elevated the worth of shares he doesn't own - meaning the 'little shareholders' that remain have even more value.

So unless you're a current shareholder, have been through the company's share holdings or are Jeremy Peace himself, stop making slanderous claims. EVERYTHING has been done above board, as would be done in any business.
And what happened to those who didn't have money to upgrade but didn't want to sell?

PsalmXXIII

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2228 on: July 05, 2016, 11:46:38 PM »
And what happened to those who didn't have money to upgrade but didn't want to sell?

They were given a sum of money considerably more than they bought them for. It wasn't that expensive to upgrade. I was 19 at the time and managed it. The increased share price then meant that the clubs shareholdings were reflective of the massive change in the value of the club from when the original shares were issued. It also increased the revenue of the club with more money brought in through share purchases and that has been funnelled through the club.

I get some people are drunk off that shareholders were 'forced to sell' their shares but considering the financial package offered to shareholders at the time and a couple years ago, the financial gain was extremely generous. I post fairly regular updates on the S4A shareholder meetings for those who are interested - I assume those upset about losing their shares were regular attendees at shareholder meetings? I get why some people may see this as some sort of immoral travesty, but shares are part and parcel of a business. The sentimental value of them is, unfortunately of little concern to anyone. The club is run as a business, it's shares are distributed, bought and sold as a business, and the ownership of said shares is, as with everything else, a business matter. Wanting to 'own' a small part of that business for sentimental reasons is unfortunately outweighed by those who actually run the business. Sadly the fact of the matter is that whilst owning shares is nice to say you have, they aren't memorabilia and will always be treated as assets to be traded and bought by businesses.

By all means, if you want a share that badly you can still purchase them.

PsalmXXIII

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2229 on: July 06, 2016, 12:35:12 AM »
No where have I've slandered him nor have I claimed he has done anything illegal, I used to be able to study the accounts when we was listed but your rosy assessment of how the business was conducted you failed to mention the people who could not afford the cost and did want to sell. Now are you also telling me the loan to buy the club JP payed this off himself ?

I'm not Jeremy Peace so I don't know the intricate ins and outs of the accounts, so for a start I'll request you give me the benefit of the doubt over MY understanding of how deals like this are done:

West Bromwich Albion Holdings - the company that JP is Chairman of has the loan with Barclays. This loan (apparently £10m, I'm going off what you guys say) will therefore be on Holdings and their fixed and tangible assets will be collateral. As far as I can tell, Holdings owns the ground, training ground, other properties and other assets to a tune of about £40m. The COMPANY WBA Holdings is liable for this loan, not Peace himself. With £40m+ in fixed and tangible assets, the loan was approved in the company's name.

With the dissolution of the previous company WBA Holdings in 2013, the assets held were purchased by the new co (confusingly called WBA Holdings) which would be purchased with funds not tied into shares - conceivably Peace's (or other investors in the company) own money. This would then mean all assets that the loan was taken out against would be purchased and owned, properly and legally by Holdings, whose majority shareholder is Jeremy Peace. He HAS put his own money into the club through three different company's (both parent company and subsidiaries). However I'd hasten to add that Jeremey Peace as an individual is not where you need to look for the details of these financial workings - his company WBA Holdings is and the two aren't interchangeable. The complexity of this all is also evidence that people can't just bandy around rubbish like Peace stole control of the club.

Either way, regardless of if you want to stick to this story that Peace took out £10m and wrestled the club from the grasps of the honest fan, its not 'him' who owns that loan but a company he is main shareholder for. The company is good for the £10m + interest on the loan and therefore, indirectly, Holdings can use the loan to purchase shares in Group, knowing that the COMPANY is good for the loan payments. Everyone needs to disassociate themselves with Peace acting as an individual and WBA holdings as a business entity which has been conducting these deals. Business and corporate dealings are far more complicated than people are making them seem by treating this as a sole individual acting and not a business. Until you can see that 'Jeremy Peace' and 'a company with £40m worth of assets, headed up by Jeremy Peace' aren't even remotely similar, the sooner you'll realise there's absolutely no wrongdoing, legally or morally, at any point.

So stop beilieving any old rubbish thrown about, learn some corporate law, realise this is all legal and isn't some individual stealing the club from the fans, and accept that this is business done legally and right.

Oh and those spouting off about Peace's wage, before 2013 he earnt less than £120k a year from the club. So we can all stop with the stories that he's stolen a wage for years, he went 9 years earning next to nothing for a high level director in a company making tens of millions. But suppose that doesn't fit the evil Mr Scrooge narrative.


kirk

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2230 on: July 06, 2016, 07:15:22 AM »
I'm not Jeremy Peace so I don't know the intricate ins and outs of the accounts, so for a start I'll request you give me the benefit of the doubt over MY understanding of how deals like this are done:

West Bromwich Albion Holdings - the company that JP is Chairman of has the loan with Barclays. This loan (apparently £10m, I'm going off what you guys say) will therefore be on Holdings and their fixed and tangible assets will be collateral. As far as I can tell, Holdings owns the ground, training ground, other properties and other assets to a tune of about £40m. The COMPANY WBA Holdings is liable for this loan, not Peace himself. With £40m+ in fixed and tangible assets, the loan was approved in the company's name.

With the dissolution of the previous compayny WBA Holdings in 2013, the assets held were purchased by the new co (confusingly called WBA Holdings) which would be purchased with funds not tied into shares - conceivably Peace's (or other investors in the company) own money. This would then mean all assets that the loan was taken out against would be purchased and owned, properly and legally by Holdings, whose majority shareholder is Jeremy Peace. He HAS put his own money into the club through three different company's (both parent company and subsidiaries). However I'd hasten to add that Jeremey Peace as an individual is not where you need to look for the details of these financial workings - his company WBA Holdings is and the two aren't interchangeable. The complexity of this all is also evidence that people can't just bandy around rubbish like Peace stole control of the club.

Either way, regardless of if you want to stick to this story that Peace took out £10m and wrestled the club from the grasps of the honest fan, its not 'him' who owns that loan but a company he is main shareholder for. The company is good for the £10m + interest on the loan and therefore, indirectly, Holdings can use the loan to purchase shares in Group, knowing that the COMPANY is good for the loan payments. Everyone needs to disassociate themselves with Peace acting as an individual and WBA holdings as a business entity which has been conducting these deals. Business and corporate dealings are far more complicated than people are making them seem by treating this as a sole individual acting and not a business. Until you can see that 'Jeremy Peace' and 'a company with £40m worth of assets, headed up by Jeremy Peace' aren't even remotely similar, the sooner you'll realise there's absolutely no wrongdoing, legally or morally, at any point.

So stop beilieving any old rubbish thrown about, learn some corporate law, realise this is all legal and isn't some individual stealing the club from the fans, and accept that this is business done legally and right.

Oh and those spouting off about Peace's wage, before 2013 he earnt less than £120k a year from the club. So we can all stop with the stories that he's stolen a wage for years, he went 9 years earning next to nothing for a high level director in a company making tens of millions. But suppose that doesn't fit the evil Mr Scrooge narrative.

Again I have never said he has done anything illegal and I do know how to read accounts thank you. Again you fail to mention who paid the loan off which enable JP oh I'm sorry the company he set up and owned most of the shares so let's say JP ... Who paid the loan off..... JP or the profits WBA football club made?
It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

overseas baggie

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2231 on: July 06, 2016, 09:44:03 AM »
Again I have never said he has done anything illegal and I do know how to read accounts thank you. Again you fail to mention who paid the loan off which enable JP oh I'm sorry the company he set up and owned most of the shares so let's say JP ... Who paid the loan off..... JP or the profits WBA football club made?

But the profits of the football clubs mostly belong to him anyway as shareholder

halifax_baggie

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2232 on: July 06, 2016, 09:52:57 AM »
But the profits of the football clubs mostly belong to him anyway as shareholder

So what!

PsalmXXIII

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2233 on: July 06, 2016, 09:57:18 AM »
Again I have never said he has done anything illegal and I do know how to read accounts thank you. Again you fail to mention who paid the loan off which enable JP oh I'm sorry the company he set up and owned most of the shares so let's say JP ... Who paid the loan off..... JP or the profits WBA football club made?

The loan hasn't been paid off. It's still there, with interest, in the accounts of WBA Holdings. The 'debts' of Holding are around £25m which includes that loan, though the company is still in profit to the tune of around £45m. I haven't got the end of year reports in front of me at the moment so can't give exact figures. Though the reason the company was issued the loan is because it was good for the value of the loan. Upon a successful sale of the club, the debts will be paid out of the money Holding receives for the sale. It is in Peace's interest to sell sooner rather than later due to the increase in interest on said loans.

And keep your sarcasm to yourself - my point about differentiating between Peace and the company WBA Holdings is valid when looking at these business transactions. You're claiming he's not put a penny of his own money into the club, when HE doesn't own the shares, a company he's funded does. Business to business shareholdings should be viewed differently to individual shareholdings - especially when the issue under scrutiny is where money is coming from.

If you know how to read accounts, I suggest you do so to find your answers, rather than take up my time explaining something that is quite clear.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2234 on: July 06, 2016, 10:04:23 AM »
Its funny how 20 years ago, had we the option to have a chairman who runs the club at a profit, has turned our Academy into a Cat A Academy, rebuilt the Rainbow, given us a team packed with international players, established us as a Premier League side and we would have snapped your hands off or thought you were having a laugh or that pigs were flying.

Skip forward 20 years and people are calling JP in immoral man for what he has done and cant wait to get rid of him....absolutely ridiculous
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baggiejohn

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2235 on: July 06, 2016, 10:08:12 AM »
The loan hasn't been paid off. It's still there, with interest, in the accounts of WBA Holdings. The 'debts' of Holding are around £25m which includes that loan, though the company is still in profit to the tune of around £45m. I haven't got the end of year reports in front of me at the moment so can't give exact figures. Though the reason the company was issued the loan is because it was good for the value of the loan. Upon a successful sale of the club, the debts will be paid out of the money Holding receives for the sale. It is in Peace's interest to sell sooner rather than later due to the increase in interest on said loans.

And keep your sarcasm to yourself - my point about differentiating between Peace and the company WBA Holdings is valid when looking at these business transactions. You're claiming he's not put a penny of his own money into the club, when HE doesn't own the shares, a company he's funded does. Business to business shareholdings should be viewed differently to individual shareholdings - especially when the issue under scrutiny is where money is coming from.

If you know how to read accounts, I suggest you do so to find your answers, rather than take up my time explaining something that is quite clear.

Think you & me should start a new lobby group Psalm " The league against sarcastic remarks"  :)
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2236 on: July 06, 2016, 10:10:26 AM »
Its funny how 20 years ago, had we the option to have a chairman who runs the club at a profit, has turned our Academy into a Cat A Academy, rebuilt the Rainbow, given us a team packed with international players, established us as a Premier League side and we would have snapped your hands off or thought you were having a laugh or that pigs were flying.

Skip forward 20 years and people are calling JP in immoral man for what he has done and cant wait to get rid of him....absolutely ridiculous

Until he rebuilds the Halfords, turns the Hawthorns into a 60,000 seater stadium, spends £40m on a single player, out of his own money, then wins the Champions League and sells us for £10 because he's a real fan, some won't be happy.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2237 on: July 06, 2016, 10:14:23 AM »
I think the man has done a great job for my beloved baggies whom I have supported for over 50 years has kept us in a stable position in the premier league for the last 7 years, long may this continue as I don't believe all the rummers of takeover talks but if it does happen he will leave us in a better condition than when he took over.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2238 on: July 06, 2016, 10:29:08 AM »
Its funny how 20 years ago, had we the option to have a chairman who runs the club at a profit, has turned our Academy into a Cat A Academy, rebuilt the Rainbow, given us a team packed with international players, established us as a Premier League side and we would have snapped your hands off or thought you were having a laugh or that pigs were flying.

Skip forward 20 years and people are calling JP in immoral man for what he has done and cant wait to get rid of him....absolutely ridiculous

We have come a long way in 20 years, however how much progress have we made in the last five?

JP deserves credit for where we are now but he also deserves criticism for where we are now. I am convinced we will end up regretting not pushing on and progressing the club further than where we are now.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2239 on: July 06, 2016, 10:31:38 AM »
We have come a long way in 20 years, however how much progress have we made in the last five?

JP deserves credit for where we are now but he also deserves criticism for where we are now. I am convinced we will end up regretting not pushing on and progressing the club further than where we are now.

In the last 5 years we have gone from a perennial yoyo side to being an established Prem side

I think our last 3 managers prior to Pulis have been poor decisions granted but to think we haven't progressed as a club in 5 years doesnt wash with me
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2240 on: July 06, 2016, 10:38:44 AM »
We have come a long way in 20 years, however how much progress have we made in the last five?

JP deserves credit for where we are now but he also deserves criticism for where we are now. I am convinced we will end up regretting not pushing on and progressing the club further than where we are now.

We're now a stable Premier League side.

The first half a season after we got promoted we were OK, we went forward massively under Roy and then did our best to get ourselves relegated under Clarke, Mel and Irvine, only in the last 18 months have we regained our composure.

Arguably if it hadn't of been for the two and a half years of utter madness involving Clarke, Mel and Irvine we would be a lot further along in our progression. What level of accountability you lay with Peace for this is up to you - however losing Hodgson and Ashworth at the same time would scupper any side they were that vital.

As for the takeover, is this thread for a discussion r.e. the prospective buyer or are we all just having an arguement about JP? You can't half tell it's been a slow summer so far.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2241 on: July 06, 2016, 10:41:55 AM »
I've wondered whether it would be great if Peace remained but with a new backer pumping money in. However, is Peace like Arsene Wenger in terms of club owners? He's done amazing things in the past but has probably come as far as he can. If someone pumps in more money, I'm not sure he'd know how to play that game i.e. running the Albion with lots of someone else's money?

Either way, his legacy will be fantastic for this club - compare how we've been run, what we've achieved without outside investment compared to many clubs (even our once illustrious neighbours who've had periods of being bankrolled and still not punched their weight).

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2242 on: July 06, 2016, 11:02:02 AM »
Think you & me should start a new lobby group Psalm " The league against sarcastic remarks"  :)

the " league for overly sensitive chaps " would be more accurate, ;D

waits for a self fulfilling prophecy to occur .....  ;)


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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2243 on: July 06, 2016, 12:36:06 PM »
anyone a share holder on here
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2244 on: July 06, 2016, 01:10:27 PM »
I've wondered whether it would be great if Peace remained but with a new backer pumping money in. However, is Peace like Arsene Wenger in terms of club owners? He's done amazing things in the past but has probably come as far as he can. If someone pumps in more money, I'm not sure he'd know how to play that game i.e. running the Albion with lots of someone else's money?

Either way, his legacy will be fantastic for this club - compare how we've been run, what we've achieved without outside investment compared to many clubs (even our once illustrious neighbours who've had periods of being bankrolled and still not punched their weight).

It wouldn't really work though because if someone is prepared to pump loads of money into the club then they will want to be seen as the owner and it to be his club which then doesn't leave a place for Peace.

For what it's worth, I really like Jeremy Peace and think he has been brilliant for our club
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2245 on: July 06, 2016, 01:10:56 PM »
the " league for overly sensitive chaps " would be more accurate, ;D

waits for a self fulfilling prophecy to occur .....  ;)

Trying to assess inflection and tone on a message board is a minefield, I suspect your group is a little closer to the mark  ;) :D
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2246 on: July 06, 2016, 01:12:09 PM »
Can someone tell me the point of all this please?
Because anyone who understands business and can read p/ loss accounts gets it.
Why this continuous chatter about jp is really beyond me.
Don't some of our fans have nothing better to do with their time instead of this constant nitpicking.
What's the point of it all.
The man has done a great job at WBA I for one won't knock him.
It's so easy to criticise from afar,you try it,its not easy.
I perfectly understand the difficulties in owning/ running a company I had 2 and employed over 200 people it's hard its tough creating work for people you worry about them you know them you feel for them and in the end it almost kills you.
That doesn't seem to matter though does it?

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2247 on: July 06, 2016, 01:12:16 PM »
We are still a club who's only ambition is to stay in Prem after seven seasons. JP has carried on the good work that was started by Paul Thomson but by being more cautious and with the new money being pumped into league Jeromy has to either sell or change his tact and put debt on club just to compete with transfers and wages

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2248 on: July 06, 2016, 01:15:18 PM »
We are still a club who's only ambition is to stay in Prem after seven seasons. JP has carried on the good work that was started by Paul Thomson but by being more cautious and with the new money being pumped into league Jeromy has to either sell or change his tact and put debt on club just to compete with transfers and wages

If you're not Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea or Spurs, that is still your aim at the start of every season. Our 'ambition' is different to our aim, the ambition is repeating top ten, but so is 14 other teams for essentially 4 free places.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2249 on: July 06, 2016, 02:08:45 PM »
Its funny how 20 years ago, had we the option to have a chairman who runs the club at a profit, has turned our Academy into a Cat A Academy, rebuilt the Rainbow, given us a team packed with international players, established us as a Premier League side and we would have snapped your hands off or thought you were having a laugh or that pigs were flying.

Skip forward 20 years and people are calling JP in immoral man for what he has done and cant wait to get rid of him....absolutely ridiculous
Totally agreed. Some people are just never satisfied
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 02:42:54 PM by MarkW »