[NJS]

Jones said that MSD money has gone to WBA Holdings not WBA Group - or WBAFC the Jersey based outfit.  From the discussions of this business (cf Lai and MSD threads) I thought that this was definitely not the case.  What is the truth?

In the end, in something illegal has been done by Lai e.g. a default on a loan, the only effective action for Albion might come from the appointment of a KC to flush Lai or his representatives into a court of justice.  A4A has achieved a large following and could exploit this by fundraising to prosecute a civil case.  Don't waste the money on the paper.

Maybe we shouldn't be buying  a brick but a piece of an advocate.

[skyclad99]

I imagine it will go something like........

"There's lots of stuff going on in the background, that we can't discuss because it's commercially sensitive.
You'll just have to trust us"

Possibly together with an invitation for Action for Albion to have a voice on the Assembly.

I have serious doubts that there will be straight forward answers to their questions.

Probably right John, but at least they are concerned enough to open up a dialogue.

Its better than nothing and many are now aware of the Albion situation as a result of A4A, which can only be good.

[baggiejohn]

It's possible they have been told to come out of hiding by Lai to try and quieten the protests down without giving any real information but if they do so then they risk ramping things up even further.

I await the outcome of this meeting with interest.

The Albion Assembly is the recognised communications conduit for the club.
If they have deeper discussions with A4A, it undermines the Assembly.
IMO, that's not likely to happen.

RG & IS's big problem at the moment is controlling the message.

For Example, On the OS & in the Assembly December minutes, it says that MSD loan will be used to compensate for lack of parachute payments, & wii be used for both operational budgets & investment.
An assembly member on twitter claims he was told the loan wouldn't be used for tranfer fees.
So there's a conflict of message.

They really need to get that sorted.

[johnny Cash]

Do we have any former assembly members here - Or current members prepared to stick their neck out and answer a question I have?

The question is, has the assembly ever been told anything, but asked to keep it off the record / within those walls, or anything like that?

[hardtobeat]

Jones said that MSD money has gone to WBA Holdings not WBA Group - or WBAFC the Jersey based outfit.  From the discussions of this business (cf Lai and MSD threads) I thought that this was definitely not the case.  What is the truth?

In the end, in something illegal has been done by Lai e.g. a default on a loan, the only effective action for Albion might come from the appointment of a KC to flush Lai or his representatives into a court of justice.  A4A has achieved a large following and could exploit this by fundraising to prosecute a civil case.  Don't waste the money on the paper.

Maybe we shouldn't be buying  a brick but a piece of an advocate.

If Lai stays in China I don’t think British courts would have any jurisdiction in making him appear in any sort of court , he can just stay there and ignore the summons. We have no extradition treaty with China so would be difficult to force any issue .
The meeting is at least a step in the right direction and I think it would be helpful if either Ken or the finance bloke were in attendance too

[gazberg]

The Albion Assembly is the recognised communications conduit for the club.
If they have deeper discussions with A4A, it undermines the Assembly.
IMO, that's not likely to happen.

RG & IS's big problem at the moment is controlling the message.

For Example, On the OS & in the Assembly December minutes, it says that MSD loan will be used to compensate for lack of parachute payments, & wii be used for both operational budgets & investment.
An assembly member on twitter claims he was told the loan wouldn't be used for tranfer fees.
So there's a conflict of message.

They really need to get that sorted.

Clarity is what we all want.


As for undermining the Albion Assembly that's the least of everyone's worries

[tlms-p23]

Jones said that MSD money has gone to WBA Holdings not WBA Group - or WBAFC the Jersey based outfit.  From the discussions of this business (cf Lai and MSD threads) I thought that this was definitely not the case.  What is the truth?

In the end, in something illegal has been done by Lai e.g. a default on a loan, the only effective action for Albion might come from the appointment of a KC to flush Lai or his representatives into a court of justice.  A4A has achieved a large following and could exploit this by fundraising to prosecute a civil case.  Don't waste the money on the paper.

Maybe we shouldn't be buying  a brick but a piece of an advocate.

I was also surprised at this and made me wonder if the loan is going to West Brom in its entirety.

Does anyone know, is Lai likely to be under any obligation for the loan to be used for West Brom, if the loan has been taken out by WBA holdings? Or has he taken out the loan against West Brom assets, but is still free to redistribute the loan to any of his other businesses outside of the WBA group?

Might another £5m make its way to China? Would that be legal? Could you hide it if it weren’t legal through ‘creative accounting’.

I don’t trust his intentions, his word, his judgement where WBA is concerned, or that he’ll observe accounting best practice.

[gazberg]

Hang on, I think I've missed something. Lai has taken a loan secured against the club but he is not even required to use those funds for the club?

[baggiejohn]

Hang on, I think I've missed something. Lai has taken a loan secured against the club but he is not even required to use those funds for the club?

See what I mean?

This is from the os

West Bromwich Albion Group Limited has secured a £20million loan from MSD UK Holdings Limited.

The four-year loan, secured against all Group assets, will be used to finance the general business operations of the football club.   

The club has corresponded with all Group shareholders in connection with the written shareholder resolution required to amend Group’s articles of association in relation to the loan.

Group Director, Xu Ke, said: “Group has secured a loan from MSD UK Holdings which will be used by the football club to support the funding of its general business operations.

“For the avoidance of doubt, the loan will only be spent on the purposes of the football club.”

So it's Group who have taken the MSD loan, not holdings, there's a huge document about the loan on Companies House website.

[baggiejohn]

Do we have any former assembly members here - Or current members prepared to stick their neck out and answer a question I have?

The question is, has the assembly ever been told anything, but asked to keep it off the record / within those walls, or anything like that?

I don't know, but I don't think they're that cozy.
I'm not sure I'd trust 20 odd people to keep their mouth's shut.

[tlms-p23]

Someone lend a hand if you can? Have I got this right?

So loan has been taken out by West Bromwich Albion Group Ltd, who own West Bromwich Albion FC (the football club)?

Lai’s 87.8% share in West Bromwich Albion FC is called West Bromwich Albion FC Holdings. WBAFC Holdings is owned by a separate company of a similar name, West Bromwich Albion Holdings Limited.

West Bromwich Albion Holdings Limited is owned by Yunyi Guokai Sports Development Limited, who are owned by Guoachan Lai.

I think I have this right but please shout me down if not.

—————

Deliberately confusing and opaque accounting aside…

Is it legal for a loan given to the West Bromwich Albion Group and secured against group assets, to effectively pass its way up the chain, make its way to Yunyi Guokai Sports Development Company in Shanghai, to then be moved on wherever Lai sees fit - taking the loan out of the club but burdening it with debt and interest and at risk of default and assets being seized, etc.

May not be possible and I may just be being overly cynical. That said, I don’t trust Lai at all and if he’s having cash flow problems in China’s Ponzi scheme of a housing/construction market, perhaps this is a way of solving that.

[gazberg]

Action for Albion are on Talk TV tomorrow at 8pm on Mark Seggers show.   Freeview channel 237


"@marksaggers
A very important football finance story and I’m delighted @action4albionare joining us. @martynziegler@KieranMaguire@gavinmegaw. 
Serious football debate that matters. The Sunday Night Club @TalkTVfrom 7 with the @WBAfinancial story from 8.00."

[overseas baggie]

Someone lend a hand if you can? Have I got this right?

So loan has been taken out by West Bromwich Albion Group Ltd, who own West Bromwich Albion FC (the football club)?

Lai’s 87.8% share in West Bromwich Albion FC is called West Bromwich Albion FC Holdings. WBAFC Holdings is owned by a separate company of a similar name, West Bromwich Albion Holdings Limited.

West Bromwich Albion Holdings Limited is owned by Yunyi Guokai Sports Development Limited, who are owned by Guoachan Lai.

I think I have this right but please shout me down if not.

—————

Deliberately confusing and opaque accounting aside…

Is it legal for a loan given to the West Bromwich Albion Group and secured against group assets, to effectively pass its way up the chain, make its way to Yunyi Guokai Sports Development Company in Shanghai, to then be moved on wherever Lai sees fit - taking the loan out of the club but burdening it with debt and interest and at risk of default and assets being seized, etc.

May not be possible and I may just be being overly cynical. That said, I don’t trust Lai at all and if he’s having cash flow problems in China’s Ponzi scheme of a housing/construction market, perhaps this is a way of solving that.

It’s not a question of “legal” (which sounds criminal if it used), but whether it’s a breach of fiduciary duty (or an event of default under the terms of the loan agreement).

Any decision made by the director of Group (Ken) to use the money for anything which is not in the interests of that company (and it’s own subsidiaries) would be a breach of fiduciary duty, but only the minority shareholders could potentially suffer loss from that, and so only they could bring a legal action for any loss suffered.

[tlms-p23]

It’s not a question of “legal” (which sounds criminal if it used), but whether it’s a breach of fiduciary duty (or an event of default under the terms of the loan agreement).

Any decision made by the director of Group (Ken) to use the money for anything which is not in the interests of that company (and it’s own subsidiaries) would be a breach of fiduciary duty, but only the minority shareholders could potentially suffer loss from that, and so only they could bring a legal action for any loss suffered.

That’s good to know, thanks mate.

Hopefully doesn’t come to any of that and the minority shareholders aren’t put in that position. Sadly, scepticism needed where Lai is concerned - the trust is broken. Better to know about what worst case scenarios look like than not.

[gazberg]

Talking about todays FA cup games at moment. Action for Albion are on in 20mins at 8pm for those interested.  Ch 237 on Freeview.

[gazberg]

On now

[BalisPen]

Congratulations to Alistair for spreading the word.

A bit of a sloppy start from Saggers, saved by the experts coming in.

Unfortunately, we didn't get any more information, but we have to keep up the pressure.

I don't think lights on phones and stand up if you want Lai out during games will work, but protests like Monday's may.

However,  we have to be careful with these protests as the rozzers were chomping at the bit to get involved and I heard some of our morons saying that we "should storm the carpark" (I assume the players carpark by the east stand). The last thing we want to do is let our protests affect the good work CC is doing, as getting promoted is the only thing that will help us get rid of Lai.

[alex1]

I thought Lai (or his representative) said his loan was being paid back (first by 31.12.22, then early this year). Surely, if he wants to retain any credibility, he must realise he will have to fulfill this pledge. 

[BalisPen]

I'd be shocked if Lai could spell credibility, let alone having any.

They gave an example on talk tv of the new Crawley Town owner not knowing what a throw in was.

It would shock me if Lai didn't know we could have been relegated from the prem the absolute moron.

[BigFrank20]

https://watch.talk.tv/watch/replay/51598481

Just over an hour in for A4A's segment

[skyclad99]

I thought Lai (or his representative) said his loan was being paid back (first by 31.12.22, then early this year). Surely, if he wants to retain any credibility, he must realise he will have to fulfill this pledge.

The loan was originally scheduled to be paid back in September 2021, plus £50k interest. However, Lai defaulted on this repayment and set the new date of 31/12/22. He has now missed this date and there is now no deadline date for the repayment. If it is ever paid, I hope that the interest will reflect the 17 month delay, but I seriously doubt we will actually see this money paid back at all.

Interesting debate on Talk TV last night, nothing new to us but for anyone else who was not fully aware of our plight it was very informative. Well done Alistair and everyone else involved with Action 4 Albion.

[alex1]

The loan was originally scheduled to be paid back in September 2021, plus £50k interest. However, Lai defaulted on this repayment and set the new date of 31/12/22. He has now missed this date and there is now no deadline date for the repayment. If it is ever paid, I hope that the interest will reflect the 17 month delay, but I seriously doubt we will actually see this money paid back at all.

Interesting debate on Talk TV last night, nothing new to us but for anyone else who was not fully aware of our plight it was very informative. Well done Alistair and everyone else involved with Action 4 Albion.

I don't know much about Chinese culture, but I assume they do have something such as a sense of honour which would include a basic honesty and willingness to pay off debts. If he were in effect to just pocket this loan, he couldn't really show his face inside the Hawthorns again. He is still a relatively young bloke. Would he really want to ruin his business reputation in this country for ever?

[WBArgo]

I don't know much about Chinese culture, but I assume they do have something such as a sense of honour which would include a basic honesty and willingness to pay off debts. If he were in effect to just pocket this loan, he couldn't really show his face inside the Hawthorns again. He is still a relatively young bloke. Would he really want to ruin his business reputation in this country for ever?

I know a bit about Chinese culture and honestly, they can be ruthless when it comes to business - especially outside of China where eyes won't be on them as much. So I think he would gladly ruin his reputation in England if it came to it.

[baggie82]

The loan was originally scheduled to be paid back in September 2021, plus £50k interest. However, Lai defaulted on this repayment and set the new date of 31/12/22. He has now missed this date and there is now no deadline date for the repayment. If it is ever paid, I hope that the interest will reflect the 17 month delay, but I seriously doubt we will actually see this money paid back at all.

Interesting debate on Talk TV last night, nothing new to us but for anyone else who was not fully aware of our plight it was very informative. Well done Alistair and everyone else involved with Action 4 Albion.

The statement on the club website read: "Lai has assured the club’s board of directors the repayment will now be made early in the new year."

So no specified date, but a timeframe nevertheless. At what point do we reach when it can be said that we are no longer early in the New Year? That is subjective, I would say, at the latest, end of March. Once you are into the fourth month of the year it is stretching credibility to describe it as early in the year.

Of course, the club's board of directors are only relaying Lai's latest effort to move the goalposts, so I don't think anyone would be surprised if the latest deadline is missed and more excuses are offered.

[Albionic]

I know a bit about Chinese culture and honestly, they can be ruthless when it comes to business - especially outside of China where eyes won't be on them as much. So I think he would gladly ruin his reputation in England if it came to it.

Having worked with Chinese for 20 years I know ethics and standards (western) are not  applied in china. The concept of “face” is totally over blown by westerners too, face or profit? Profit wins every time in business.
Personal relationships are a different thing altogether