[Albionic]

Another factor to consider is the opposition will focus upon nullifying MP now, the Soton thugs will single him out !

[baggiebof]

The above provides us with defensive solidity as AMN looks much better defensively than offensively. With Robinson, Pereira, Phillips and Diagne we have a varied attack.

Agree with this although on occasions where we are just the ascendancy, I'd be looking to replace Phillips. Phillips is a useful starter as he can become a right wing back with Furlong tucking inside to allow some tactical variety.

[wodenson46]

Is it possible to agree with both of the great posts from both Standaman and Baggies? Albionic also has an excellent point in how do we get some protection for MP against the thugs who have and will target him in games. Need a captain to get in the ref's face every couple of minutes or so.

[Adder]

Another factor to consider is the opposition will focus upon nullifying MP now, the Soton thugs will single him out !

Think we need to focus on getting our own game going again against Southampton. The game at their place we were half asleep and completely outplayed. Like it or not you have to trust refs and VAR where it comes to players being singled out. Plenty of teams have star players in the premier league and most get pretty good protection these days I'd say.

[wodenson46]

Think we need to focus on getting our own game going again against Southampton. The game at their place we were half asleep and completely outplayed. Like it or not you have to trust refs and VAR where it comes to players being singled out. Plenty of teams have star players in the premier league and most get pretty good protection these days I'd say.

The key word is 'most'

[Adder]

The key word is 'most'

I was just a bit surprised this was even being raised to be honest. I'm not sure Southampton are noted for their thuggery are they ? Also I can't remember any horror challenges on Pereira to date.

[alex1]

Was pleasantly surprised with Allardyce's tactics yesterday. If we had of just tried to go for a 1-0, Chelsea would have eventually broken us down.  We actually tried to play a high pressing game to try and force Chelsea's slow build-up into errors (and it worked for MP's second goal). 
Robinson also did what we have been doing very poorly all season. Making runs from deep into scoring positions. Also, I was pleased to see Furlong and Townsend getting forward, and they contributed directly to the 3rd and 4th goals.
It proves, to me anyway, that to win matches you need to get forward in numbers, and then get back in numbers to defend. 

[chippyclarke]

I was just a bit surprised this was even being raised to be honest. I'm not sure Southampton are noted for their thuggery are they ? Also I can't remember any horror challenges on Pereira to date.

It was Bill Shankley back in the 60's that labelled them "alehouse brawlers" and they certainly were!

[hardtobeat]

It was Bill Shankley back in the 60's that labelled them "alehouse brawlers" and they certainly were!

That side would have had the likes of Jimmy Gabriel , John McGrath etc . They scared away ale house brawlers !!

[Albionic]

I was thinking of Oriol Romeu specifically, but Bertrand and the center halves are prone to 'going through' with the back of a player with a tackle

[Atomic]

Despite Joe Masi's insistence that we played 4231 yesterday, we actually didnt we played 442 with Pereira upfront with Diagne. Pereira, as he does, drops from there into the ten role at times. Live score.com have us listed as 442 (although they've mixed up the positions of Robinson and Pereira) while flashscore.com have us as 4411. I can understand 4411 as sometimes it can be down to interpretation but really it was more 442.

I'm not sure what Masi watches sometimes, although from his vantage point inside the stadium it may be difficult to tell.

Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles sure as hell weren't playing in a double pivot though, that shouldve been clear enough to spot, both getting around the pitch. Phillips was used wide right as a sort of genuine right sided midfielder with Robinson  wide left as the more attacking wide player.

You can notice Yokuslu's role has changed slightly he no longer sits in front of the defence in a three.

It will be interesting to see how we line up against Leicester who are likely to play two up top Vardy and Iheanacho. I didn't see their game against West Ham but it seems they played 3412. It'll be interesting to see if we change formation to deal with that.

[Standaman]

Thought I'd reboot this in the light of the likely appointment of Valerian Ismael. I've mapped out the current squad in a 3-4-3 which is his stock shape with a high press.
                                                                       
                                                                         GK
                                                               Johnstone  (28, 2022 )
                                                               Palmer     (24,2023)
                                                               Button     (31, 2022)                                                                                                                         
                                           
                                             CB                               CB                                 CB                                                               
                                   O'Shea (22, 2023)             Bartley (29, 2022)    Ajayi (27,2023)                 
                                   Kipre   (24,2024)

           RWB                                       8                                            8                                       LWB                                                     
     Furlong (25, 2023)           Livermore  (31,2022)           Sawyers  (29,2022)                  Townsend (28, 2024)
                                           Harper      (20, 2022) 
                                                                                             
                        RWF                                                 CF                                                LWF
               Pereira   (25, 2024 )                           Zohore  (27 2023)                 Robinson (26, 2025)
               Diangana (23, 2025)                                                                      Grant     (23, 2026)                     
               Snodgrass (33, 2022)                                                                     Phillips   (30 ,2022)
     
                                                     
Aside from the shape there is a style at it's best is a high press designed to compact the space in front of the back 3 and win the ball as high up the pitch as possible. The wide players in the front three are inverted and the wing backs provide width. Ball progression is flexible Ismael's teams can be direct but at their best pass the ball well and have a great deal fluidity among a front three in possession. This is very much the version of his style that was prominent at LASK. The style at Barnsley was a lot more direct and heavily dependent on vertical long balls and set pieces but regardless the shape and personnel requirements are the same

Looking at the squad the issues are different to those created by the potential hiring of Wilder who also worked with a back 3 but never the less there is a common thread as to the areas of the pitch where we are just short of options. e.g. Central Midfield and Centre Forward.

Goal Keeper

As ever with Johnstone probably leaving Palmer seems to be the obvious successor.  However there are some specific requirements it is helpful if the keeper's distribution is good and more critically they do need to be able to sweep behind a high back line. I don't know if Palmer can but that is what we need.

Defence

At Centre Back we are probably short of numbers and I am not entirely sure we have the right personnel Ajayi and O'Shea might have the pace to work in a high line but Bartley is more of a concern, he generally has always looked more comfortable in a low block and Kipre remains a bit of a mystery. If we are going to play out form the back rather than be very direct we absolutely need at least one left footed Centre Back.

Midfield

This is a problem regardless of who we bought in as Head Coach

Wing Backs are fine but right now there isn't cover and given the role you can't get by by putting a Centre Back (e.g. O'Shea) out there, Phillips at a stretch on the right but we have nothing on the left.

Central midfield is a different kettle of fish we are short of numbers and quality. Ismael uses a double 8 central midfield rather than double pivot with a DM. However the distinction is somewhat arbitrary neither roles have the luxury of sitting deep a high press requires a high degree of mobility and aggression however how well the central midfielders retain and pass the ball will determine the fluidity and again whether it's LASK or Barnsley. I would add that a high press is not solely about charging around the pitch tackling everything that moves but also closing down passing lanes with intelligent movement.   

Attack

We potentially have two options in both wide attackers positions all of whom would be ideal for the set up

We've got Zohore and I am far from certain he is fit for purpose at any level. Grant and Robinson could be used as Centre Forward options but neither are the sort of target man the system requires and besides which one of them would be playing left wing. We need goals physical presence and an intense work rate.

To get a functioning first XI we need

2 x Central Midfielders
1 x Strikers
1 left footed Centre Back

All at starter level quality if any of the current starters leave they need replacing, for back up options I would look first at the club's under 23's

[Adder]

I know Callum Morton has had his injury problems but he could be someone who interests Ismael due to his energy and intensity (from the limited amounts I've seen). I'm not saying he should be a first choice but it would be nice if we had a head coach who is keen to identify 4 or 5 youngsters to blood in the team sooner rather than later (he might need to out of necessity).

My own view is that despite Zohore's physique he seems to prefer playing off the shoulder and running onto things rather than being a traditional target man to pump balls forward to.

[lewisant]

Thanks Standaman...looks more than workable. I wonder what Kipre is like and if he will work, Ajayi seems like the obvious defender that will work, despite his errors while we might see Furlong flourish in this system. Grant, Robinson and Diangana should be more than suited. I'm excited to see what he can do.

[Baggies]

The reports I read on Kipre at the time suggested he was very similar to Ajayi and for that reason might not complement each other. Kipre therefore might work in this system.

I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.

[lewisant]

The reports I read on Kipre at the time suggested he was very similar to Ajayi and for that reason might not complement each other. Kipre therefore might work in this system.

I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.

So you'd have to say 2 of those 3 with a left footed CB may be the way forward when drawing your's and Standaman's observations together, which leaves Bartley as back up potentially. Not such a bad thing, this style won't be good for Bartley.

[Adamstv]

I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.
[/quote]

No real answer to that one. No wonder he wears his shorts down to his knees

[WorcsWBA]

Thanks for your excellent assessment above, Standaman. I didn't want to respond to it until I knew who our new manager was going to be but, now that Valérien has been confirmed and knowing what his general style of play is going to be, I think we need a greater turnover of players than might otherwise have been the case.

• Assumption: Johnstone and Pereira will be sold. I don't think we should buy a replacement for Johnstone, we should have sufficient quality already at the club.
• I can't really see that Bartley will fit well into Valérien's style and, as he's also out of contract at the end of the season, now would seem to be a good time to move him on.
• We definitely need competition/replacements for both Furlong and Townsend in the wing-back positions. Wing-backs are a vital component of Valérien's style, so we need the best players we can possibly get in that position.
• I have very little belief that any of Harper, Livermore and Sawyers can step up to the demands that Valérien will ask of them, so I think they all need to be replaced, particularly as all of them will be out of contract at the end of the season. Consequently, a total rebuild of our central midfield will be needed.
• Similarly, Zohore's heart the size of a pea attitude won't cut it in the slightest, so hopefully a buyer will come forward for him. If so, we'll need 2 strikers.
• I can't really say how Snodgrass is going to fit into the equation, but he's probably one of the players whose temperament will be OK for Valérien's style. Does he still have the legs for it though? He's another one who's contract ends in 2022
• Will Diangana be willing and able to be part of the front line for the gegenpress?
• I don't think Phillips has the energy and stamina to be able to fulfil a role in the new playing style. He's also out of contract at the end of the season.
• It's going to be interesting to see if Grant thrives or withers in the new environment.

All in all, it's going to be an intriguing few weeks building up to the season to see how well the players are going to adapt to what's now going to be asked of them and, consequently, what the resulting comings and goings will be! I'm excited to see how it all unfolds!

[MarkW]

I agree Worcs - it's exciting. It might all be terrible, but it will be exciting to see it unfold.

Given it's a four year deal, I think we may e can expect a more gradual churn of players than perhaps we'd see with a 2 year deal.

[Adder]

A couple are mentioning Phillips but he finished the season looking a lot fitter and playing well. Of course people can speculate but I wouldn't rule any of the players out on the grounds of not being able to cut it on the fitness/intensity front.

They are likely to face a pre-season unlike any they have encountered before. It'll be interesting to see the first starting line-up for sure.

[mulliganstired]

I agree Worcs - it's exciting. It might all be terrible, but it will be exciting to see it unfold.

Given it's a four year deal, I think we may e can expect a more gradual churn of players than perhaps we'd see with a 2 year deal.

I don't see a mass clear out, we will need back up and at the very least Livermore isn't a shirker

[WorcsWBA]

I don't see a mass clear out, we will need back up and at the very least Livermore isn't a shirker

With so many players out of contract at the end of the season, either you have to give them new contracts (which we've been doing too readily for years) or the players concerned will have a bigger question mark over their heads as to whether they'll be motivated to do what's needed. during the season You could also argue that they need to play well to increase their chances of getting a new contract, but it quite often doesn't work out like that.

[Standaman]

I think the younger players Diangana, Harper, Grant etc... at least have youth on their side. It is harder to see others adapting but I wouldn't write anyone off. One of the reasons why I have become increasingly enthusiastic about Ismael's appointment is that he can work with and improve players. 

That said he isn't a miracle worker and will need reinforcements. It will be interesting to see how this works Barnsley didn't recruit anyone over the age of 24 and with a high energy press it is difficult to see veterans fitting in.   

[beechyboy90]

Dont think we should be going for a new keeper you would hope button and or palmer can step up.
Hoping people look for value elsewhere and dont come in for periera and we can try time him down to new terms with promotion bonus.

We need about 6 bodies in even if we dont ship anybody out. We dont have competion for either full back/wing back position phillips maybe? Central midfield not sure Harper is going to make grade and livermore and sawyers lack the dynamism we require so we need at least 2 there. We have only 1 recognised striker on books in big kenneth so we need 1 if not 2 in there (grant & Robinson) can be further back up.

If we are playing back 3 we need another cb we only have 4 on books. And some have raised questions about bartley in potentially a new setup. Will snodgrass be fit enough? He might be somebody for last 20mins of games etc. Phillips never been somebody to do more than a hour anyway...

Nevertheless i am excited and looking to see what valerien brings to the team

[baggie96]

Imagine we didn’t do any business, this wins the league imo

Johnstone
Ajayi Bartley O’Shea
Furlong Livermore Mowatt Townsend
Pereira Grant Robinson

Imagine pereira and Johnstone will go however, get a left footed centre back in, centre mid and a striker.