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Off Topic => General Football & Sports => Topic started by: 17GD on June 07, 2019, 04:49:56 PM

Title: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: 17GD on June 07, 2019, 04:49:56 PM
Ok here's an interesting one:

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/june/new-recruitment-regulation-introduced-to-help-improve-equality/

EFL clubs must interview at least one Black and Asian person for first team management vacancies.

I don't see how this will help improve the situation.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 07, 2019, 07:47:21 PM
The best person for the job should get the job regardless of where they are from or the colour of their skin etc etc, things like this don't help anyone to be honest, if someone from the BAME community is interviewed there will be questions of is that person being interviewed as a serious candidate or just to fulfil the obligation of this new ruling? If over  the course of a season there are only a tiny % of BAME managers given the jobs will there be outrage over that ? clubs will then feel forced to appoint an inferior candidate.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: wbako on June 07, 2019, 07:59:21 PM
What about women? They are underrepresented as managers; The over 70s too?

Positive discrimination is never the answer.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 07, 2019, 08:30:28 PM
Disgusting
Can be dressed up as "positive discrimination"
But it is actually enforced racism....bloody stupid idea devised by stupid people

There was a team recently that said they will interview all BAME applicants , why?,ridiculous world we live in

On a side note, if the BAME applicants are going to have a greater increase in interviews...and clubs still decide not to employee them...then what?, the % of failure will naturally grow so does that mean non BAME clubs become more racist ?
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 07, 2019, 10:06:13 PM
In a country where approx 95.6% of managers in the top 4 divisions are white, I'm amazed any West Bromwich Albion fan would be put out by ANY scheme devised to increase representation of BAME individuals. It's called Affirmative Action not positive discrimination. There is no quota or preference given to who is actually appointed.


Nothing to see here except positives.


I advise anyone who disagrees to have a read about the Rooney Rule.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Westie on June 08, 2019, 12:47:11 AM
I have nothing against the best applicant getting the job, whatever their colour; any sensible club will appoint the person that they consider the best applicant. However, if you were running a football club and required a new manager, you may well have two or three preferred candidates in your mind, so why waste everybody’s time in interviewing someone else, who you don’t want, just to meet a quota? A waste of everybody’s time. PC lunacy again, idiotic policy.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: 17GD on June 08, 2019, 01:39:55 AM
In a country where approx 95.6% of managers in the top 4 divisions are white, I'm amazed any West Bromwich Albion fan would be put out by ANY scheme devised to increase representation of BAME individuals. It's called Affirmative Action not positive discrimination. There is no quota or preference given to who is actually appointed.


Nothing to see here except positives.


I advise anyone who disagrees to have a read about the Rooney Rule.

Jacko, how about the fact that in Italy only one manager in Serie A is NOT Italian? Or the 5 non-German coaches in the Bundesliga? Or the six managers who aren't French in Lige 1? Or the five non-Spanish coaches in La Liga?

Compared to the FOUR English coaches in the PL. We are a richly diverse country and to bring a rule in like this is asking for trouble.

To suddenly enforce a rule that says you have to interview someone with a specific skin colour is extremely tricky ground and from a legal standpoint could be a minefield.

What's getting people to question this is why make the rule simply about the colour of one's skin? What about race, sexuality, gender, religious beliefs, age, height, hair colour...
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: costa blanca baggie on June 08, 2019, 05:08:57 AM
In a country where approx 95.6% of managers in the top 4 divisions are white, I'm amazed any West Bromwich Albion fan would be put out by ANY scheme devised to increase representation of BAME individuals. It's called Affirmative Action not positive discrimination. There is no quota or preference given to who is actually appointed.


Nothing to see here except positives.


I advise anyone who disagrees to have a read about the Rooney Rule.
Why, of all the other groups of supporters you could mention, have you chosen us to think differently to others?
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 08, 2019, 12:20:37 PM
Jacko, how about the fact that in Italy only one manager in Serie A is NOT Italian? Or the 5 non-German coaches in the Bundesliga? Or the six managers who aren't French in Lige 1? Or the five non-Spanish coaches in La Liga?

Compared to the FOUR English coaches in the PL. We are a richly diverse country and to bring a rule in like this is asking for trouble.

To suddenly enforce a rule that says you have to interview someone with a specific skin colour is extremely tricky ground and from a legal standpoint could be a minefield.

What's getting people to question this is why make the rule simply about the colour of one's skin? What about race, sexuality, gender, religious beliefs, age, height, hair colour...


Ah whataboutery. That old fallback when you've got no real argument.


Why, of all the other groups of supporters you could mention, have you chosen us to think differently to others?


Because of our trailblazing history with players? Assumed that would be obvious.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: RedHead_Baggie on June 08, 2019, 01:12:50 PM
Ok here's an interesting one:

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/june/new-recruitment-regulation-introduced-to-help-improve-equality/

EFL clubs must interview at least one Black and Asian person for first team management vacancies.

I don't see how this will help improve the situation.

If someone's CV stacks up to warrant having an interview then that should be the only contributing factor in my opinion.

Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 08, 2019, 01:14:55 PM
In a country where approx 95.6% of managers in the top 4 divisions are white, I'm amazed any West Bromwich Albion fan would be put out by ANY scheme devised to increase representation of BAME individuals. It's called Affirmative Action not positive discrimination. There is no quota or preference given to who is actually appointed.


Nothing to see here except positives.


I advise anyone who disagrees to have a read about the Rooney Rule.

I understand there is a need from some quarters to get more BAME managers and coaches in the game but it has to be the best person for the job regardless of colour, race etc etc.

If 4 BAME managers apply out of 20 applicants and they are the best 4 candidates then rightly so they should be interviewed, however if the 4 best candidates are white then they should be interviewed.

It has nothing to do with this club and our history which to be honest I find insulting given that I grew up with the 3 degrees and Regis is my all time hero especially having met the man a few times.

There is also the point that an inferior coach has to be interviewed whilst having no chance of getting the job wasting time and money.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: 17GD on June 08, 2019, 01:19:25 PM
Lol the irony of no real argument typed in one sentence.

The strange thing is, football clubs do lots to combat racism, but it's the minority of idiots in the stands who still think it's ok to be racist.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Hunnington Baggie on June 08, 2019, 02:19:33 PM
Is it a moving scale? after all by population black managers are now slightly over represented, will this rule no longer effect them as we need more asian managers (AME)? Are Spanish and Portuguese managers classed as white or hispanic a la the rooney rule? Is a Magyar (for example) it's own seperate ethnicity or does it come under white? in which case you are generalizing an entire people due to their skin colour and denying them privileges given to to others, which is racist.

 It opens a whole can of worms and really shouldnt have been touched.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 08, 2019, 02:29:32 PM
I understand there is a need from some quarters to get more BAME managers and coaches in the game but it has to be the best person for the job regardless of colour, race etc etc.

If 4 BAME managers apply out of 20 applicants and they are the best 4 candidates then rightly so they should be interviewed, however if the 4 best candidates are white then they should be interviewed.

It has nothing to do with this club and our history which to be honest I find insulting given that I grew up with the 3 degrees and Regis is my all time hero especially having met the man a few times.

There is also the point that an inferior coach has to be interviewed whilst having no chance of getting the job wasting time and money.


This is the key part. How do the clubs know whether they are among the 4 best if they never get in the room?


This rule change does no one any harm, it isn't to the detriment of anyone else and will help under represented people to move forward. Just the benefit of the interview environment will help. It's all experience.



Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: ex coseley kid on June 08, 2019, 03:40:33 PM
Surely to be completely fair - racism aside - we need to include at least one woman, one member of the LGBTQ community and at least one disabled person. It’s going to be a long due process...
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 08, 2019, 03:43:29 PM

This is the key part. How do the clubs know whether they are among the 4 best if they never get in the room?


This rule change does no one any harm, it isn't to the detriment of anyone else and will help under represented people to move forward. Just the benefit of the interview environment will help. It's all experience.

Well the first thing you do is whittle them down from the applications and the cv provided as you do in any other line. If their cv is amongst the top few then they get an interview.

Why should clubs where every penny counts have to go through interviewing people when a lot of the time the person they want has been identified before they have sacked the current manager?

Its a pointless rule.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: costa blanca baggie on June 08, 2019, 03:56:22 PM

Ah whataboutery. That old fallback when you've got no real argument.



Because of our trailblazing history with players? Assumed that would be obvious.
That was 40 years ago. I presume our recruitment for players then was based on ability, not skin colour, as the end result proved. This new ruling is political. Being a West Brom fan makes no difference about whether we think it’s the right way to go or not.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Standaman on June 08, 2019, 05:33:00 PM
Few points on this, firstly roughly a third of Premier League players are BAME. The ranks of professional coaches is nearly exclusively drawn from the pool of ex-professional players there are exceptions to this rule but typically this is the case. Hence other things being equal 33% of coaches should be BAME. If Albion have a Head Coach an Assistant Head Coach and First Team Coach one of those should be BAME.

The question is why not? Okay maybe I have set the statistical bar too high. The proportion is probably better measured by the proposition of BAME players 15 years ago (because players only turn to coaching after retirement) well that number was a little over 20%. Even allowing for an extensive time lag because at one point both footballers and coaches were nearly exclusively white although even 25 years ago the proportion of BAME footballers was still 15%.

Lets take 15% as being an okay benchmark which one might guess at if hiring is indeed "colour blind" or has been for as long as football would like to think it's been. Of the 92 league managers that gives us about 14. I am guessing that we can count the BAME managers on the fingers of one hand.

To be kind to football that suggests maybe just maybe something isn't quite right or not as rosy as the Football authorities would like us to believe.

The biggest problem that football has is it's absolutely archaic recruitment practices. If you were designing a process to ensure the continued dominance of a particular demographic then it be would like the typical football club's, dominated by patronidge, word of mouth and closed selection.

Brighton got pelters for the dismissal for Hughton but that misses the point. The bigger problem is the process by which they indentified his replacement, a closed selection process where 1 candidate was identified and duly hired. The same commentators no doubt praised Brighton for having a clear vision.

The Rooney rule if nothing else starts to force clubs to adopt better more open hiring processes.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: gerry m on June 08, 2019, 05:37:38 PM
I understand there is a need from some quarters to get more BAME managers and coaches in the game but it has to be the best person for the job regardless of colour, race etc etc.

If 4 BAME managers apply out of 20 applicants and they are the best 4 candidates then rightly so they should be interviewed, however if the 4 best candidates are white then they should be interviewed.

It has nothing to do with this club and our history which to be honest I find insulting given that I grew up with the 3 degrees and Regis is my all time hero especially having met the man a few times.

There is also the point that an inferior coach has to be interviewed whilst having no chance of getting the job wasting time and money.

Agree  Oldbury! Off topic i know i went for a job of Handyman with our local council only to be told the job had had been filled. They had a certain amount of people. Needless to say i walked out.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 08, 2019, 05:39:11 PM
Why shouldn't Brighton or any other club identify someone and then go for that person if they feel that is the person they want to manage their club? why do they need to involve and interview others when they have identified that person? football management is not like most or the vast many of other lines of work, many future managers are identified before the current one is sacked and its all sorted for them to take over. Not all clubs do it our way especially at the top levels, they want someone in asap and many times that person brings his coaching staff with him and again many times its people he has got to know throughout his career and he trusts.

This rule forces clubs to go round the rigmarole of interviews when they already know who they want and that is their choice.

Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Barrington on June 08, 2019, 05:56:07 PM
What happens if there are roles at certain clubs that no black/asian person is interested in? Do the EFL have to go out in a van and snatch a random person off the street and bundle them into the interview room tied up? Am I naive for thinking that there won't always be a qualified black/asian coach applying for every single job that comes up? If there will be cases where there are no qualified black/asian coaches applying for certain jobs it could be a great opportunity for a BAME blogger or someone to just go around the country getting invited to different clubs facilities and getting interviewed etc just by applying.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: smethwickw on June 08, 2019, 05:59:12 PM
Paul Ince will be popular again. The token interviewee.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: gazberg on June 08, 2019, 06:25:15 PM
Never have agreed with any of this box ticking/quota nonsense. The best candidate for the job should and usually would get it. I don't know of too many racist chairmen willing to throw millions away out of spite with their football clubs.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Nathan on June 08, 2019, 06:36:07 PM
England is fast becoming (if not already) the most pathetically politically correct nation on Earth. If black people aren't getting their qualifications and coaching badges in sufficient numbers then how the f**k is that the fault of anyone but themselves? The majority of black players at the end of their playing career just don't bother progressing with getting qualified. If they happen to the best person for the job then fair enough, but if they aren't, then it isn't bloody racist if they don't get employed. It was the same argument about the numbers of blacks in Universities. That idiotic, blatantly anti-white, racist, black Tottenham Labour MP David Lammy played the race card on that yet again. What are we supposed to do? Let them all in anyway even if they haven't got the required grades and qualifications? Dumbing down of the education system just to be diverse. It's pathetic. Like others on this thread have said, just how much more diverse do people want this country to be? We already do more than enough, more than most nations ever have or ever will. Hetrosexual, white Englishmen will soon be at the bottom of the pile in this country. Already we are seeing state run organisations such as the BBC and many police forces actively seeking people from minority groups when advertising vacancies, which is in itself racist and discriminatory against white men, but we aren't allowed to say anything are we otherwise we get jumped on and suffer vile abuse from the ironically fascist, ever more violent and aggressive far left. It's just another case of social engineering by the state, it's everywhere you look.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: skyclad99 on June 08, 2019, 07:09:20 PM
I am actually convinced that in 5 years time BAME profiling will be looked down upon by the people who fit the profile. To me it goes against everything we are trying to achieve, ie. a level playing field and soon many will realise that. So to be part of a group that is identified and given special treatment may eventually not be a good thing.


We are well down the road with racism, still some way to go but why would you want to be in a category that identifies you as such and draws attention to yourself?
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 08, 2019, 07:30:26 PM
Few points on this, firstly roughly a third of Premier League players are BAME. The ranks of professional coaches is nearly exclusively drawn from the pool of ex-professional players there are exceptions to this rule but typically this is the case. Hence other things being equal 33% of coaches should be BAME. If Albion have a Head Coach an Assistant Head Coach and First Team Coach one of those should be BAME.

The question is why not? Okay maybe I have set the statistical bar too high. The proportion is probably better measured by the proposition of BAME players 15 years ago (because players only turn to coaching after retirement) well that number was a little over 20%. Even allowing for an extensive time lag because at one point both footballers and coaches were nearly exclusively white although even 25 years ago the proportion of BAME footballers was still 15%.

Lets take 15% as being an okay benchmark which one might guess at if hiring is indeed "colour blind" or has been for as long as football would like to think it's been. Of the 92 league managers that gives us about 14. I am guessing that we can count the BAME managers on the fingers of one hand.

To be kind to football that suggests maybe just maybe something isn't quite right or not as rosy as the Football authorities would like us to believe.

The biggest problem that football has is it's absolutely archaic recruitment practices. If you were designing a process to ensure the continued dominance of a particular demographic then it be would like the typical football club's, dominated by patronidge, word of mouth and closed selection.

Brighton got pelters for the dismissal for Hughton but that misses the point. The bigger problem is the process by which they indentified his replacement, a closed selection process where 1 candidate was identified and duly hired. The same commentators no doubt praised Brighton for having a clear vision.

The Rooney rule if nothing else starts to force clubs to adopt better more open hiring processes.


The voice of sanity... great post as usual.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Windmill Baggy on June 08, 2019, 07:44:49 PM
Few points on this, firstly roughly a third of Premier League players are BAME. The ranks of professional coaches is nearly exclusively drawn from the pool of ex-professional players there are exceptions to this rule but typically this is the case. Hence other things being equal 33% of coaches should be BAME. If Albion have a Head Coach an Assistant Head Coach and First Team Coach one of those should be BAME.

The question is why not? Okay maybe I have set the statistical bar too high. The proportion is probably better measured by the proposition of BAME players 15 years ago (because players only turn to coaching after retirement) well that number was a little over 20%. Even allowing for an extensive time lag because at one point both footballers and coaches were nearly exclusively white although even 25 years ago the proportion of BAME footballers was still 15%.

Lets take 15% as being an okay benchmark which one might guess at if hiring is indeed "colour blind" or has been for as long as football would like to think it's been. Of the 92 league managers that gives us about 14. I am guessing that we can count the BAME managers on the fingers of one hand.

To be kind to football that suggests maybe just maybe something isn't quite right or not as rosy as the Football authorities would like us to believe.

The biggest problem that football has is it's absolutely archaic recruitment practices. If you were designing a process to ensure the continued dominance of a particular demographic then it be would like the typical football club's, dominated by patronidge, word of mouth and closed selection.

Brighton got pelters for the dismissal for Hughton but that misses the point. The bigger problem is the process by which they indentified his replacement, a closed selection process where 1 candidate was identified and duly hired. The same commentators no doubt praised Brighton for having a clear vision.

The Rooney rule if nothing else starts to force clubs to adopt better more open hiring processes.

When looking and trying to work out such statistics, it's worth looking in a bit more detail at the managers currently in employment and finding out how they a) got started in their managerial career and b) how have they progressed to the position they now find themselves in.

A short research reveals that the majority of the current 92 league managers (a few vacancies still open, but I looked at managers sacked during the season as well) reveals that the vast majority either started off with a position in the lower divisions or non league; worked their way up through the coaching ranks, eventually being promoted from within (though when this happens it is usually in the lower divisions as well); promoted directly from playing for a club to being its manager/player-manager; or have a strong record/reputation from abroad.

In the Prem next season 13 managers are from overseas, with only 7 who are white British. Of these 6, Dean Smith's coaching career started as youth coach for Leyton Orient, then their assistant manager, before moving to Walsall as their youth coach. He eventually was promoted from within to be their manager, where he was able, over 4 years, to build up a reputation; Sean Dyche began as a youth coach at Watford and progressed to being manager; Eddie Howe was a long-serving Bournemouth player turned player-coach, then their youth coach, eventually becoming their manager when they were in League 1; Wilder spent almost 10 years managing in non-league, starting at Alfreton, before he even managed in the league; Brendan Rodgers started off as Chelsea's youth coach; Roy Hodgson spent close to 10 years managing in the Swedish leagues, much of this in the second tier, before he became coach of Malmo; and Potter had to move abroad to find a position and gradually build himself a reputation.

In the Championship last season; Alex Neil and Gary Monk originally got their break in management after being promoted from players to player-managers, Neil for one of the smaller clubs in the Scottish Prem; Albion promoted DM from within; Neil Harris at Millwall had been a long-serving and well-liked ex-player who took over in League 1; Warburton was promoted from within at QPR after working his way up the ranks; Johnson was a long-serving player at Bristol whose Dad had previously managed them for significant periods (he's like part of the family there) and got his managerial start at Oldham in League 1; O'Neil and Cook started out managing in non-league, gained considerable experience at that level and built themselves reputations; Bruce, Bielsa and Mowbray are all 'name' managers with lengthy C.V's and with relative degrees of success which currently will put them above most 'new' and less-experienced candidates;

In League 1 Lee Bowyer was promoted from within after moving up from coach, to assistant, to caretaker and is Charlton through-and-through; Nigel Clough started out in the 6th or 7th tier with Burton and has 20 years of experience; Ross at Sunderland worked his way up from player to coach to assistant to caretaker to manager before making his reputation in the lower leagues in Scotland; John Coleman at Accrington managed them when they were in the 6th/7th tier and stayed for 14 years, left, returned, got them promoted against the odds and last season kept them in league 1.

I could go on!

My point is that the progression of the vast majority of current league managers began either at or pretty near the bottom of the profession, even after they had completed their coaching badges and they worked their way up to where they are currently.

The fact is that it is incredibly difficult (to make an understatement) to break into football league management and even harder to stay regularly employed and that is the case even if you are from the U.K, white and have a successful international playing career behind you.

Last years appointments of Lampard by Derby and Barton by Fleetwood on the basis of zero managerial experience and no previous connections to each club are exceptions rather than the rule when it comes to how people break into football league management.

An ex-player getting a plum job managing a club the size of Albion (as DM did 12 months ago) with no previous managerial experience does not happen very often and when it does it is usually when an ex-player is promoted to that position from within as it did with Fulham and Scott Parker this year.

What is the percentage of BAME ex-players who take their badges or are even interested in coaching? What is the percentage of those who do take their badges who are then willing to take jobs as youth coaches, assistants or their first managerial jobs in the bottom division or in non-league? Or move abroad to coach in a lesser known league as Potter and Hodgson did? Because most U.K. born, successful managers in England today start out in these ways and I don't see how forcing EFL clubs to interview BAME applicants is going to change anything if said applicants don't have the relevant experience in the first place.

As others have said, it is a foolish rule at best.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: wbako on June 08, 2019, 07:48:06 PM
Is it a moving scale? after all by population black managers are now slightly over represented, will this rule no longer effect them as we need more asian managers (AME)? Are Spanish and Portuguese managers classed as white or hispanic a la the rooney rule? Is a Magyar (for example) it's own seperate ethnicity or does it come under white? in which case you are generalizing an entire people due to their skin colour and denying them privileges given to to others, which is racist.

 It opens a whole can of worms and really shouldnt have been touched.

Bloody brilliant post.

My argument put forward much more eloquently.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 08, 2019, 09:00:35 PM
Bloody brilliant post.

My argument put forward much more eloquently.


Not sure why you think so? There is no AME, it's BAME and I've no idea why Hunnington split it except to be mischievous. Fact is minority groups are under-represented in managerial/coaching positions in comparison to their representation as players. This does not guarantee them more jobs, just more opportunity to get in a room with decision makers.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: wbako on June 08, 2019, 09:29:06 PM

Not sure why you think so? There is no AME, it's BAME and I've no idea why Hunnington split it except to be mischievous. Fact is minority groups are under-represented in managerial/coaching positions in comparison to their representation as players. This does not guarantee them more jobs, just more opportunity to get in a room with decision makers.

I, like you, would like to see more managers from the BAME group, Jacko. However, we are not going to agree on this topic.

My point is that introducing a rule which states you have to interview someone who is BAME is opening a can of worms. What about candidates from a particular economic background? Gender? Religious belief? Sexual orientation? Nationalities?

I have had lengthy debates on this issue in the past and have no wish to get into one on my Saturday night. So I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: AlbionFan on June 09, 2019, 09:35:42 AM
Just out of my own curiosity does anyone know how many BAME owners and directors the 92 clubs have?
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Standaman on June 09, 2019, 10:41:26 AM
Just out of my own curiosity does anyone know how many BAME owners and directors the 92 clubs have?

More than have Managers

Middle Eastern Owners
Man City
Sheffield United

Asian
Blackburn
Southampton
Leicester
WBA
Wolves
Cardiff
QPR
Hull
Sheffield Wednesday
Wigan
Bristol Rovers
Oxford United
Salford City

Oh yeah not at all sniffy about Johnny Foriegner when he has money to burn oh no Sir come right in pull up a chair have a cigar.


Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: AlbionFan on June 09, 2019, 11:21:27 AM
That adds up to 15 clubs, in percentage terms that’s about 16%. There is a discrepancy in the numbers of BAME Managers / Head Coaches of that there is little doubt.

This may be being simplistic, but it begs the question, why haven’t these BAME owners recruited BAME Managers / Head coaches for their clubs in trying to address and provide a lead to others in this contentious issue?
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 09, 2019, 08:06:39 PM
It's a joke. They may as well as say all clubs must start X% of BAME players, it's a total shambles.

I would hate to ever think I was interviewed for a job simply to meet a quota. Any application in any walk of life should always be based on merit.

Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 10, 2019, 02:16:45 AM
It's a joke. They may as well as say all clubs must start X% of BAME players, it's a total shambles.

I would hate to ever think I was interviewed for a job simply to meet a quota. Any application in any walk of life should always be based on merit.


Sorry mate. Affirmative Action is not about quotas. Analogy is totally wrong.


For your analogy see the SA international cricket team since circa 2016.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: AlbionFan on June 10, 2019, 09:13:36 AM

Sorry mate. Affirmative Action is not about quotas. Analogy is totally wrong.


For your analogy see the SA international cricket team since circa 2016.

If members take the time to read what Affirmative Action is all about and what the Rooney Rule is all about you will very quickly understand they have little or nothing in common with Positive Discrimination.

Affirmative Action requires and only requires that BAME candidates are included in an interview process, the employer is not obliged to hire someone as a result of being from a BAME background.

Additionally, there is no reason that I can see, why women, over 70’s, LGBT or any other minority group should not also be included in the interview process as well.

There isn’t a legal requirement on employers to offer candidates from any background a job and Jacko is correct, there’s nothing really to see here, other than an a guaranteed interview opportunity and after that the BAME candidate has to prove his worth to the employer the same as any other candidate.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: FallOutBoy on June 10, 2019, 01:16:33 PM
I would hate to ever think I was interviewed for a job simply to meet a quota. Any application in any walk of life should always be based on merit.

If I was a minority myself, this would be the doubt plauging every interview I went for. "Am I only here because they have to interview me, or do I stand a chance of getting the job? Am I building myself up for nothing?".
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: smethwickw on June 10, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
If I was a minority myself, this would be the doubt plauging every interview I went for. "Am I only here because they have to interview me, or do I stand a chance of getting the job? Am I building myself up for nothing?".

Exactly this. You'll have people turning down interviews if they genuinely feel they are just making up the quota. They will then start to complain about the system you watch.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: BoingFlyer on June 10, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
If I was a minority myself, this would be the doubt plauging every interview I went for. "Am I only here because they have to interview me, or do I stand a chance of getting the job? Am I building myself up for nothing?".


The same argument has already been proven that a foreign or none European sounding prevents you from even getting an interview.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Windmill Baggy on June 10, 2019, 04:40:44 PM
That adds up to 15 clubs, in percentage terms that’s about 16%. There is a discrepancy in the numbers of BAME Managers / Head Coaches of that there is little doubt.

This may be being simplistic, but it begs the question, why haven’t these BAME owners recruited BAME Managers / Head coaches for their clubs in trying to address and provide a lead to others in this contentious issue?

Because they, as do all clubs, appoint who they believe is best for the job, nothing more.

Read my earlier post. Very few of the current football league managers cannot be implied they have not earned their position through some kind of merit.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 10, 2019, 08:53:03 PM

Sorry mate. Affirmative Action is not about quotas. Analogy is totally wrong.


For your analogy see the SA international cricket team since circa 2016.

It's not a wrong analogy though. The FA have said that a club must do something. It is not a choice but a pre-requisite that must be met. If they said that all sides had to field at least one BAME player is that not a pre-requisite that must be met?

They are telling clubs they have too interview someone based on their ethnicity. It's a shambles and sums up the PC mess we live in.

 

Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 10, 2019, 09:45:02 PM
It's not a wrong analogy though. The FA have said that a club must do something. It is not a choice but a pre-requisite that must be met. If they said that all sides had to field at least one BAME player is that not a pre-requisite that must be met?

They are telling clubs they have too interview someone based on their ethnicity. It's a shambles and sums up the PC mess we live in.


Last time, affirmative Action is not about quotas. Either look it up or stop responding.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 10, 2019, 09:46:17 PM

Last time, affirmative Action is not about quotas. Either look it up or stop responding.

Can people stop trying to tell people what to do on this forum please. Its up to us who decide who posts and as long as they post within the rules they will be able to post as and when they like.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 10, 2019, 09:47:52 PM
Can people stop trying to tell people what to do on this forum please. Its up to us who decide who posts and as long as they post within the rules they will be able to post as and when they like.


Apologies, but for a board that's heavily moderated for quality output, it would be nice if the context of the posts had a some degree of accuracy when dealing in facts and not opinions.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 10, 2019, 09:56:59 PM

Last time, affirmative Action is not about quotas. Either look it up or stop responding.

By your own admission you call this rule a positive. You also repeatedly call it affirmative action. Which is illegal in the UK. Just saying.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: MarkW on June 10, 2019, 10:12:57 PM
Question (and I don't know the answer). Managerial vacancy occurs and the club received say 10 applicants, none of whom are BAME. Do the club have to then approach a BAME candidate to fulfill this rule, or does it not apply?

I only ask because in genera I am in favour of this ruling, because I see diversity as a means to get differing viewpoints that may otherwise be neglected (among other reasons), but the idea that a club has to make a token interview to satisfy the rule seems perverse. I would assume they don't have to, but any clarity is appreciated.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 10, 2019, 10:16:26 PM
Question (and I don't know the answer). Managerial vacancy occurs and the club received say 10 applicants, none of whom are BAME. Do the club have to then approach a BAME candidate to fulfill this rule, or does it not apply?

I only ask because in genera I am in favour of this ruling, because I see diversity as a means to get differing viewpoints that may otherwise be neglected (among other reasons), but the idea that a club has to make a token interview to satisfy the rule seems perverse. I would assume they don't have to, but any clarity is appreciated.

Flip side a club only has BAME applicants (more chance of winning the lottery I know but hypothetical) and the club deems none suitable... imagine the uproar...
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 10, 2019, 10:56:13 PM
Question (and I don't know the answer). Managerial vacancy occurs and the club received say 10 applicants, none of whom are BAME. Do the club have to then approach a BAME candidate to fulfill this rule, or does it not apply?

I only ask because in genera I am in favour of this ruling, because I see diversity as a means to get differing viewpoints that may otherwise be neglected (among other reasons), but the idea that a club has to make a token interview to satisfy the rule seems perverse. I would assume they don't have to, but any clarity is appreciated.


If no BAME candidate applies for the job, the edict doesn't apply to the club.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Westie on June 10, 2019, 11:17:23 PM
So what happens if a club requires a new manager, receives a number of applications, including some from ‘BAME’ candidates, but chooses not to interview any of the BAME’s?

If I owned a club I would interview who I chose, nobody would tell me who I had to interview.

Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being racist, I would not have sacked Big Dave!
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 10, 2019, 11:42:07 PM
So what happens if a club requires a new manager, receives a number of applications, including some from ‘BAME’ candidates, but chooses not to interview any of the BAME’s?

If I owned a club I would interview who I chose, nobody would tell me who I had to interview.

Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being racist, I would not have sacked Big Dave!


Sacking Moore was not racist so the 2 have no correlation.


To answer your question the club will be sanctioned. Presumably it will be a financial penalty in the first instance.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: FallOutBoy on June 11, 2019, 12:51:55 PM

Sacking Moore was not racist so the 2 have no correlation.


To answer your question the club will be sanctioned. Presumably it will be a financial penalty in the first instance.

You see, this is part of my problem with it. Let's say we're looking at the England job, and the likes of Eddie Howe, Jose Mourinho, and Rafa Benitez apply, but the best BAME coach to apply is Sol Campbell. Now I'm not knocking what Campbell achieved last year, but it was in Division 4; it doesn't qualify you for the England job. Would they still get penalised?

(BTW, I know the rule might not apply to the international team, I'm just using them as an example rather than pick on a specific club)
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: AlbionFan on June 11, 2019, 12:58:39 PM
PFA chief executive Gordon Taylor is on record claiming there is ‘hidden racism’ within the game, which remains an alarming comment from the head of the players’ union.

The first stated goal in the game’s Inclusion and Anti-Discrimination paper is to widen football’s talent pool, targeting an increase in the number of BAME candidates.

Without it, we will never change the face of English football.

Action is required in this issue, I’ve seen a lot of posts here questioning this initiative, but nothing of note that could be put forward to resolving the issue.

I have no solution or magic wand, but I am prepared to support Affirmative Action as it has had positive effects in America
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Hunnington Baggie on June 11, 2019, 02:46:04 PM
PFA chief executive Gordon Taylor is on record claiming there is ‘hidden racism’ within the game, which remains an alarming comment from the head of the players’ union.

The first stated goal in the game’s Inclusion and Anti-Discrimination paper is to widen football’s talent pool, targeting an increase in the number of BAME candidates.

Without it, we will never change the face of English football.

Action is required in this issue, I’ve seen a lot of posts here questioning this initiative, but nothing of note that could be put forward to resolving the issue.

I have no solution or magic wand, but I am prepared to support Affirmative Action as it has had positive effects in America
Because there isn’t one that wouldn’t breach the Equality and Diversity Act 2010, including the ruling the EFL have already put out. If I was a struggling coach and white, I’d lawyer up and get a huge payday out the EFL for breaking the law here, they have no defence as they are forcing clubs to take candidates to interview on racial grounds.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Hull Baggie on June 11, 2019, 02:58:20 PM
Because there isn’t one that wouldn’t breach the Equality and Diversity Act 2010, including the ruling the EFL have already put out. If I was a struggling coach and white, I’d lawyer up and get a huge payday out the EFL for breaking the law here, they have no defence as they are forcing clubs to take candidates to interview on racial grounds.

It's just called the Equality Act 2010. Some jobs are allowed to be gender/sex specific which on the face of it would go against this act as gender/sex are amongst the protected characteristics that the act applies to, so I see no issue with having to have a BAME person interviewed.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 11, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
Because there isn’t one that wouldn’t breach the Equality and Diversity Act 2010, including the ruling the EFL have already put out. If I was a struggling coach and white, I’d lawyer up and get a huge payday out the EFL for breaking the law here, they have no defence as they are forcing clubs to take candidates to interview on racial grounds.


You'd end up with egg on your face, not a huge payday.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: 17GD on June 11, 2019, 08:59:42 PM
It's a very odd scenario. I'm not sure how many on here are or have been involved in coaching, but I've coached a few grassroots teams and school teams over the years. And while there are plenty of black players (yet very few Asian), I haven't worked with any BAME coaches (even when I had trials as a teen). Other clubs may have had, I suppose sometimes it depends on area, but I've just not seen any interest in BAME coaches getting involved. Not one. Yet every club I've worked with has been crying out for volunteers, so it's not like anyone would be turned down.

This is also true of the coaching courses I've been on. 20+ guys in the room, all white.

For me, the EFL have only brought this rule in as it's a hot topic, they're not actually interested in getting more BAME coaches into jobs.

If you want inside info as to what's actually going on behind the scenes at the FA etc, just speak to a qualified lead coach and they'll tell you all the ins and outs and that how a lot of what's put into the media is just for publicity purposes.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: Nathan on June 11, 2019, 10:19:49 PM
It's a very odd scenario. I'm not sure how many on here are or have been involved in coaching, but I've coached a few grassroots teams and school teams over the years. And while there are plenty of black players (yet very few Asian), I haven't worked with any BAME coaches (even when I had trials as a teen). Other clubs may have had, I suppose sometimes it depends on area, but I've just not seen any interest in BAME coaches getting involved. Not one. Yet every club I've worked with has been crying out for volunteers, so it's not like anyone would be turned down.

This is also true of the coaching courses I've been on. 20+ guys in the room, all white.

For me, the EFL have only brought this rule in as it's a hot topic, they're not actually interested in getting more BAME coaches into jobs.

If you want inside info as to what's actually going on behind the scenes at the FA etc, just speak to a qualified lead coach and they'll tell you all the ins and outs and that how a lot of what's put into the media is just for publicity purposes.

Absolutely spot on in every respect. As I attempted to touch on earlier in this thread, if black guys for whatever reason aren't bothering to get the necessary qualifications to enable a career in coaching and management then it isn't anyone's fault other than their own as to why they aren't getting any opportunities. This also explains why the ratio is much fewer in terms of black coaches/managers as opposed to black players. To pursue a career in management and coaching, you need something more about you than 'just being good at football', which was obviously enough to get by as a player. Nobody should ever be engineering these social situations in the name of diversity and politically correctness. It will end up backfiring before long when more and more people eventually open their eyes to all this nonsense and subconscious PC brainwashing.
Title: Re: New rule regarding interviews for BAME managers
Post by: AlbionFan on June 12, 2019, 08:08:38 AM
I think it’s a convenient argument to suggest BAME don’t pursue qualifications so it’s their own fault for not getting Manager / Head Coaches jobs. But the more pertinent and sometimes the hardest question is to ask why that is?

In all my years of reading the football pages in newspapers, I can’t recall having ever seen an advert for UEFA Coaching Badge courses. So, are the FA marketing these courses correctly,  are they targeting the right groups?

Below are paragraphs written by Dr Steven Bradbury who is a Lecturer at the School of Sport, Exercise and Health Sciences, Loughborough University, UK. His main areas of research interest are focused around issues of sport, diversity, and social justice.

Dr Bradbury found that whilst recent interventions, such as the FA BAME bursary programme, have had some positive impacts in supporting BAME coaches to achieve elite level coaching qualifications, there remain some blockages in the system.

This is especially the case in the transition from education to employment, where many professional clubs continue to operate a series of ‘racially closed’ networks – rather than qualifications-based criteria for coach recruitment.

The link below is to the “Sports People Think Tank” a team of ex-professional athletes that have been monitoring the BAME issue in football. The team includes our own Darren Moore and Jason Roberts.

The site compares the last four years of BAME at the varies levels of coaching in professional football.

http://thesptt.com/