[timdon]

Can only assume you didn't actually watch it. Gave 2 or 3 release balls an over. He should be going at no more than 2 an over on a surface like that and 8 wickets is about par.

Then he had a slog once the game was gone.

Not good enough and not sorry to see him slink off again.

If 8 wickets is "about par" then he is good enough
You can say whatever you like - as i said, top scorer. Fact.
Might your bias have something to do with him playing for Worcs maybe? 

[TheJacko2000]

If 8 wickets is "about par" then he is good enough
You can say whatever you like - as i said, top scorer. Fact.
Might your bias have something to do with him playing for Worcs maybe? 

I literally have no interest in Midlands County Cricket. Worcs or Warks makes no odds to me.

He needed to take those 8 wickets at an economy rate of 2 an over or less for a par performance. As it was he and Leach were the difference in us not being competitive in the game.

[timdon]

I literally have no interest in Midlands County Cricket. Worcs or Warks makes no odds to me.

He needed to take those 8 wickets at an economy rate of 2 an over or less for a par performance. As it was he and Leach were the difference in us not being competitive in the game.

No bowler from either side achieved that in the match, so by your logic, none of them are good enough. Hence why your comments made me laugh.

[TheJacko2000]

No bowler from either side achieved that in the match, so by your logic, none of them are good enough. Hence why your comments made me laugh.

Not to belabor the point but both Indian spinners matched or bettered that economy in the first innings. Ali raced along at 4.4 an over 1st dig and 3+ an over 2nd dig. In no world is that good enough in those most favourable of conditions.

[hardtobeat]

How long since Moeen played red ball cricket ? Why not jump on Leach? The biggest difference between the Indian spinners and ours was they are taller and thus got more unpredictable bounce.
England did a lot wrong in this game. Picking more left handlers than right in the batting line up(Check Ashwins record ), strange field placings , inconsistent bowling , very poor batting . Basically just got out played. Be interesting to see the game under lights usually they favour quicker bowlers this is on a new ground too

[TheJacko2000]

How long since Moeen played red ball cricket ? Why not jump on Leach? The biggest difference between the Indian spinners and ours was they are taller and thus got more unpredictable bounce.
England did a lot wrong in this game. Picking more left handlers than right in the batting line up(Check Ashwins record ), strange field placings , inconsistent bowling , very poor batting . Basically just got out played. Be interesting to see the game under lights usually they favour quicker bowlers this is on a new ground too

The conversation is about Ali because he's taken his bat and ball and gone home... AGAIN.

If you look 2 posts back I've also mentioned Leach... and no the biggest difference isn't height,  in Ashwins case it is a question of ability, he's a far better player than any of our spinners while Axar is far more consistent than our 2 despite having literally no experience at this level...

It was an embarrassing performance from our spinners in comparison to their Indian peers.

[timdon]

The conversation is about Ali because he's taken his bat and ball and gone home... AGAIN.

If you look 2 posts back I've also mentioned Leach... and no the biggest difference isn't height,  in Ashwins case it is a question of ability, he's a far better player than any of our spinners while Axar is far more consistent than our 2 despite having literally no experience at this level...

It was an embarrassing performance from our spinners in comparison to their Indian peers.

I certainly wouldn't take any issue with you that the Indian spinners are better than ours. After all, they are the best in the world on their home turf and much more used to conditions than our lads. Also, winning the toss makes a huge difference, as their pitches rarely last 5 days. But, like with our football team, you just seem to take against certain players and no amount of logic or good performances will get you to change your mind. Moeen had a lot of problems with form and confidence a little while back and then got covid in Sri Lanka, so it's not surprising that he was a little rusty, but he certainly isn't "a terrible cricketer". I would be very surprised indeed if a single poster on here would agree with your assessment.

[hardtobeat]

The conversation is about Ali because he's taken his bat and ball and gone home... AGAIN.

If you look 2 posts back I've also mentioned Leach... and no the biggest difference isn't height,  in Ashwins case it is a question of ability, he's a far better player than any of our spinners while Axar is far more consistent than our 2 despite having literally no experience at this level...

It was an embarrassing performance from our spinners in comparison to their Indian peers.

Apologies thought the thread was England Cricket not Moeen Ali

[Baggies]

Ali, Bess, Leach, none of them will ever be considered world class like Swann, Vetori, Lyon or even Panesar (for a time anyway). They are all stop gaps until we find the right one.

I'm not sure if they will turn to Rashid at some point this series (not for me in tests) or if they will fast track Virdi as some want, but  the day night test looks really important now as we might atleast get a bit more joy from the quicks.

[WBASPE77]

In terms of spinners the cupboard is pretty bare. I think we have made changes for changes sake. Why drop Bess? Going forward I'd rather us stick with Bess and Leach who I think are the best we have. There not the finished article by any means,  but they need games and overs for them to develop.

[hardtobeat]

Ali, Bess, Leach, none of them will ever be considered world class like Swann, Vetori, Lyon or even Panesar (for a time anyway). They are all stop gaps until we find the right one.

I'm not sure if they will turn to Rashid at some point this series (not for me in tests) or if they will fast track Virdi as some want, but  the day night test looks really important now as we might atleast get a bit more joy from the quicks.

Interestingly Moeen Ali has a better strike rate for his wickets than Swann

[MarkW]

In terms of spinners the cupboard is pretty bare. I think we have made changes for changes sake. Why drop Bess? Going forward I'd rather us stick with Bess and Leach who I think are the best we have. There not the finished article by any means,  but they need games and overs for them to develop.

He wasn't dropped, it's a rotation policy to manage game time across all formats this year.

[TheJacko2000]

Interestingly Moeen Ali has a better strike rate for his wickets than Swann

He's also got 70 less wickets in one more test match. The difference is 0.1 in the stat you have found. All the other stats show him in a poor light.

He wasn't dropped, it's a rotation policy to manage game time across all formats this year.

Bess was dropped mate. Anderson was rotated. Archer injured.

[LiamTheBaggie]

He wasn't dropped, it's a rotation policy to manage game time across all formats this year.

https://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/dropped_dom_bess_england_captain_joe_root_chennai_india_archer.html

He was dropped. Being told to work on his game by Root. Quite a damning comment really. Not been at all impressed with Bess when I’ve seen him bowl and these 4fers, 5fers he has taken has largely covered up the pies he bowls.

[BRIAN]

Don't forget our wickets are not designed for spinners as those in the middle east. I think the wicket in Chennai should have been subject to a report.

[LiamTheBaggie]

Don't forget our wickets are not designed for spinners as those in the middle east. I think the wicket in Chennai should have been subject to a report.

Why?

I think we need to look at ourselves rather than seeking to blame conditions.

India amassed over 500 runs on this pitch and their opening batsman knocked 161. Incidentally that was more than our first innings score and just a couple fewer than our second innings score.

We need to accept that we didn’t bowl well and nor did we bat well either. The demons lie there rather than the pitch.

It is the equivalent of us producing a green wicket in grey conditions where it’s swinging round corners.

[WBASPE77]

https://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/dropped_dom_bess_england_captain_joe_root_chennai_india_archer.html

He was dropped. Being told to work on his game by Root. Quite a damning comment really. Not been at all impressed with Bess when I’ve seen him bowl and these 4fers, 5fers he has taken has largely covered up the pies he bowls.

Bess is still very much a work in progress. I let 23 and has t even played fifteen tests. The only way you get better is by playing. He offers a lot with the bat and I like his character.

Don't forget prior to this test we'd won out three previous tests without conceding 400 runs. Bess played a big part of that .

It took Rashid a long long long  time before he became a top quality spinner.

[TheJacko2000]

I'm glad England have clarified the Moeen situation after very clumsy handling from Root and Silverwood in the media. It was always planned for him to go home for the final 2 tests (like Buttler) but in light of his return to the team they asked him to stay on at the 11th hour (day 4 of thetest). He refused and will leave the tour as previously agreed.

[BlackCountryPride68]

An inauspicious start after winning the toss.

[timdon]

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Archer has achieved with the bat to justify him batting at 8 (or even 9)?

[hardtobeat]

That tail does look awfully long , especially when it looks like Ashwin will bat at 8 or 9 for India 

[TheJacko2000]

Uphill battle now. Ashwin dismisses Root in first over. Crawley going well 53 not out.

[MarkW]

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Archer has achieved with the bat to justify him batting at 8 (or even 9)?

It's a long tail. Would you rather have Broad coming out at 8? Archer, Leach and Anderson aren't really going to provide much resistance, and Broad is hit and miss.

[TheJacko2000]

Shambolic.

Number 8 is the least of our worries.

[TheJacko2000]

81 for 6.