[tuamigos]

It's just an interim measure Liam to allow some of the freedoms we all want.
If people can not take a vaccine for a legitimate reason, they should not be disadvantaged as result.
Vaccine passports are coming for some scenarios wether we like it or not. Better to construct the arguement than fight the inevitable. Pubs should definitely not require vaccine passports.

I thought I'd read somewhere that Boris had already said that the passport wouldn't be required for pubs and restaurants.

[tuamigos]

It was so obvious from the start what was going to happen and i did try and warn people on here but more than 1 person on here said that i just wanted people to die because i was opposed to a permanent, society wide, blanket lockdown which is absurd frankly.

Sorry Gaz, but just so that I don't have to trawl through pages and pages of fanciful writings, can you just tell me what was it that you tried to warn people what was going to happen, and what has happened?

[johnny Cash]

It's governmental force taking away individual liberty mate. Take the vaccine or else become a lower tier citizen. Thats the long and short of it. Government has no right to do that.

We all remember how well things went last time there was a 2 tier citizenship in a country in Europe with badges to identify themselves and of course things wont get anywhere near that but they will get VERY divisive.

It's hard to make an individual do stupid things but collective stupidity and insanity is very easy to obtain once the mob is formed.

If covid passports/badges are enforced do people really believe there won't be groups of people kicking the rubbish out of people who refuse to wear it? There will be violence no doubt about it.

Are you comparing it to nazi Germany or am I missing the Mark?

If you are comparing it to nazi Germany that is ridiculous and it’s not remotely the same. One was pure discrimination, the other would have to be backed by science and data that can demonstrate it’s a measure that will continue to prevent the health service being overwhelmed.

A vaccine passport will be less about the vaccinated than it will about allowing those who haven’t had it opportunities to spread it amongst themselves and then lead to the burdening of the NHS.  If that’s not a risk there is no need for passports.

If 70% of the population start finding they cannot get medical treatment because 30% are taking up the resources, and that could have been avoided had they had the vaccine, that’s when their choices have to have consequences.

I don’t think it will come to it though other than for foreign travel.

[gazberg]

Sorry Gaz, but just so that I don't have to trawl through pages and pages of fanciful writings, can you just tell me what was it that you tried to warn people what was going to happen, and what has happened?

Sure, the government will apply outlandish restrictions temporarily, that's how the public will accept them. For our own good/the greater good type thing. They will take our rights away and when it's time to give them back it will be a right game. They will try and get away with what they can.

[gazberg]

Are you comparing it to nazi Germany or am I missing the Mark?

If you are comparing it to nazi Germany that is ridiculous and it’s not remotely the same. One was pure discrimination, the other would have to be backed by science and data that can demonstrate it’s a measure that will continue to prevent the health service being overwhelmed.

A vaccine passport will be less about the vaccinated than it will about allowing those who haven’t had it opportunities to spread it amongst themselves and then lead to the burdening of the NHS.  If that’s not a risk there is no need for passports.

If 70% of the population start finding they cannot get medical treatment because 30% are taking up the resources, and that could have been avoided had they had the vaccine, that’s when their choices have to have consequences.

I don’t think it will come to it though other than for foreign travel.

I get what you are saying and I didnt want to use that comparison but that's how all bull starts. Under the guise of something far more innocent.

Yess covid passports are discriminatory. People will be denied access if they don't show them. How is that not discrimination?

[johnny Cash]

I get what you are saying and I didnt want to use that comparison but that's how all bull starts. Under the guise of something far more innocent.

Yess covid passports are discriminatory. People will be denied access if they don't show them. How is that not discrimination?

Right ok, I’ll try and break it down.

This is all based on the vaccine working. If it doesn’t, well the discussion is moot

Let’s say 70% of people get vaccinated.

All along the lockdowns have been about protecting the health system.  Which at points have looked like being overwhelmed.

Infection numbers of something like 400 per 100,000 at some point have looked like causing major problems.

Well now 70,000 are not a risk.  However with ‘normal life’ opening could the 30,000 cause infection rates of 400 in 30,000 and look like burdening the NHS. 

If the answer is yes, what do you do? Do you lock down everyone, or do you restrict the still at risk 30,000 who have made a choice not to get protected?

[gazberg]

They already said passports won't be required to shop or use public transport so they are willing to let the non vaccinated mingle so they can work and shop raising tax for the government. They just won't be allowed to enjoy themselves if they have their way.

So the government want to protect people from the dirty unvaxxed by denying them access to social settings but allow them amongst everyone else to perform essential tasks therefore what's the point? Do we have proof Covod can distinguish between social and essential social settings? If not it's all moot.

As for your question neither. Life goes on. With a 70 percent success rate the NHS won't become over run. We cannot live this inhuman life forever. Deaths are now at such a low level any form of lockdown is incredulous

[TheJacko2000]

Right ok, I’ll try and break it down.

This is all based on the vaccine working. If it doesn’t, well the discussion is moot

Let’s say 70% of people get vaccinated.

All along the lockdowns have been about protecting the health system.  Which at points have looked like being overwhelmed.

Infection numbers of something like 400 per 100,000 at some point have looked like causing major problems.

Well now 70,000 are not a risk.  However with ‘normal life’ opening could the 30,000 cause infection rates of 400 in 30,000 and look like burdening the NHS. 

If the answer is yes, what do you do? Do you lock down everyone, or do you restrict the still at risk 30,000 who have made a choice not to get protected?

There is a 99.9% survival rate for the vast majority of any unvaccinated cohort. Your example just doesn't stand up to any real interrogation.

[SmethDan]

They already said passports won't be required to shop or use public transport........

I'm pretty sure some of the 'they' also said things such as it'll be just like the flu for most, non medical masks are of no use and we only need to flatten the curve. Nobody said anything about proof of vaccination for daily living though.

[johnny Cash]

They already said passports won't be required to shop or use public transport so they are willing to let the non vaccinated mingle so they can work and shop raising tax for the government. They just won't be allowed to enjoy themselves if they have their way.

So the government want to protect people from the dirty unvaxxed by denying them access to social settings but allow them amongst everyone else to perform essential tasks therefore what's the point? Do we have proof Covod can distinguish between social and essential social settings? If not it's all moot.

As for your question neither. Life goes on. With a 70 percent success rate the NHS won't become over run. We cannot live this inhuman life forever. Deaths are now at such a low level any form of lockdown is incredulous

If it stays that way we don’t need vaccine passports and this is why I don’t think it will go that way. However it still takes a relatively  small number of infections amongst the unvaccinated to cause a problem. 

If that did transpire the fact they could spread the disease on public transport or in supermarkets  is unfortunate but doesn’t mean you don’t take steps to limit the spread.

This idea that there’s some wider control conspiracy makes no sense. Who is controlling it, to what end cannot be reasonably answered.

[gazberg]

I'm not saying they have come up with covid 19 to take people's rights away but government will always take what it can from its people given half a chance.

Most people will always give up their rights for a false sense of security and if it was only their own rights they are sacrificing I have no problem with that. The issue is they don't have the right to give away anyone elses in the name of their need of feeling safe.

[johnny Cash]

There is a 99.9% survival rate for the vast majority of any unvaccinated cohort. Your example just doesn't stand up to any real interrogation.

I don’t think we disagree. I don’t think COVID passports will come in because of the data. However we havent really had any complete opening since all this kicked off really so I can see why theyd at least question ‘what if’ 

If we open up and the 30% can overwhelm the NHS, only then will the vaccine passport need more consideration. In that scenario the COVID passports make sense. It seems unlikely though.

[TheJacko2000]

I don’t think we disagree. I don’t think COVID passports will come in because of the data. However we havent really had any complete opening since all this kicked off really so I can see why theyd at least question ‘what if’ 

If we open up and the 30% can overwhelm the NHS, only then will the vaccine passport need more consideration. In that scenario the COVID passports make sense. It seems unlikely though.

No worries,  thought you were saying if 30% of the pop were unvaccinated they WOULD overwhelm the NHS. My mistake.

[BaggieBoy04]

In fairness if you needed a Vaccine Passport to get on the bus not only would that effect the bus company it would effect Kids, Teenagers and Adults who ay been vaccinated an example. The 79 I get on it to go to Wolvo to get my connections or Walk to College. It passes through an area where a lot of Elderly People live in Moxley but in Bilston and Darlaston and Wednesbury a lot of College kids heading to Sandwell or Wolvo being in the City or in Bilston get on how would they get to College most of these kids pay The Elderly have bus passes so no revune meaning that is a Loss making service meaning when the Unvaccinated can get on a Bus it would no longer be there. Overall this whole idea is unfair we wait a year for freedom now when we can get it only certain people can go for Pints at the Pub.

[The Black Pearl]

I think the government are only talking about Covid passports where social distancing is impossible, where ventilation is poor or for travel where the risk of importing vaccine resistant strains is possible.
Makes perfect sense to me to get life and the economy as near normal as possible.
Such a small price to pay for great freedoms.

[tuamigos]

There is a 99.9% survival rate for the vast majority of any unvaccinated cohort. Your example just doesn't stand up to any real interrogation.

Where's that figure from?
Completely incorrect.
Before the vaccinations were started ( hence everybody was unvaccinated by definition) 3% of all infections led to a death.

[TheJacko2000]

Where's that figure from?
Completely incorrect.
Before the vaccinations were started ( hence everybody was unvaccinated by definition) 3% of all infections led to a death.

Swedish academic study so not completely incorrect at all.

Your 3% is massively skewed by the very elderly and has no bearing on what I actually said...

[KYA]

It's not just a case of surviving covid I doubt anyone would want long covid which affects people to varying degrees some of which can have long-term effects.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-long-covid/

[tuamigos]

Swedish academic study so not completely incorrect at all.

Your 3% is massively skewed by the very elderly and has no bearing on what I actually said...

  Ya gorra loff

[kc56wba]

According to the Evening Standard

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-covid-vaccine-passport-boris-johnson-b927788.html

Boris Johnson has ditched plans to make customers show a vaccine passport when they go to pub in a huge boost for the industry.

The new “Covid status certification” scheme will only be applied to mass gatherings and indoor events like football matches and nightclubs.

A number of pilot events have been planned to test the efficacy of the policy.

Pubs will open their beer gardens on April 12 and will be able to welcome customers inside from May 17.

Drinkers will still be expected to wear a mask and follow social distancing guidelines

[TheJacko2000]

According to the Evening Standard

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-covid-vaccine-passport-boris-johnson-b927788.html

Boris Johnson has ditched plans to make customers show a vaccine passport when they go to pub in a huge boost for the industry.

The new “Covid status certification” scheme will only be applied to mass gatherings and indoor events like football matches and nightclubs.

A number of pilot events have been planned to test the efficacy of the policy.

Pubs will open their beer gardens on April 12 and will be able to welcome customers inside from May 17.

Drinkers will still be expected to wear a mask and follow social distancing guidelines

This is excellent news, see the difference in the wording too. Should mean you can attend these events if you have a negative test as opposed to being vaccinated.  This I'm more comfortable with, but it must be legislated and it must be temporary.

[The Black Pearl]

I think the government are only talking about Covid passports where social distancing is impossible, where ventilation is poor or for travel where the risk of importing vaccine resistant strains is possible.
Makes perfect sense to me to get life and the economy as near normal as possible.
Such a small price to pay for great freedoms.

Told ya, obvious really.

[Albionic]

This is it. If someone doesnt take the vaccine they are at increased risk of suffering from it or dying from it. Their risk, their choice. If you've had the vaccine you are more likely to die in a car accident than from covid.

NO, if people do not take the vaccine they are potential hosts for mutations to develop within! That threatens those of us who are participating to reduce the probability of mutations. Not having the vaccine (unless for medical reasons) IS SELFISH and risks everyone. "their risk, their choice" is just plain wrong, what you do, can impact everyone.

[tommcneill]

No  problems . I got a few reason why not having it but its my own personal choice . I cant see how they have made a vaccine in 8 months for this covid 19 without long extensive trials. theres a 98% survival rate if catch it . i personally do not know anyone who has died from it .i know people who have had it and made them ill. and i do not belive the figures they publish are a true figure of who had died of covid alone always says related. this is just my opinion would never tell anyone not to have the vaccine . Alot may not agree with what i say but hay hoo all agreed on everything be a boring life.

The 2 different vaccines have been long in development.

mRNA ones have been developed over years.

The OxfordAZ ones takes already known vaccine tech and has been developed to work with this virus.

Then add in a global scientific collaboration with an open cheque book and you can trim down years of research into months.

But both vaccine types have extensive research and years of development

[Hull Baggie]

The 2 different vaccines have been long in development.

mRNA ones have been developed over years.

The OxfordAZ ones takes already known vaccine tech and has been developed to work with this virus.

Then add in a global scientific collaboration with an open cheque book and you can trim down years of research into months.

But both vaccine types have extensive research and years of development

to add to your post:

They trailed 3 vaccines (Pfizer, Oxford/AZ and Moderna) in the UK and 46,000 people were involved in the trials.

mRNA vaccines are quicker to produce because they target a specific part of the virus (the Protein spike) rather than reproducing the whole virus.