[NJS]

Depends what you consider to be a huge investment.  As I understand it the Brentford owner had actually invested over £100 million of his own money into the club at the point where they were promoted into the PL (covering annual losses + player investment) 

Granted, that's not a lot in the greed league but for a championship club that's a significant amount and £100 million more than our owners have/will contributed.  There are few, or possibly zero??, real blueprints of how to operate as a self financing club in the top division (or even this division).  Infact, our recent success is still something of a benchmark for others.

I'm guessing most of that went on the new stadium and training facilities and not on ageing players like us.

[Oldbury24]

I'm guessing most of that went on the new stadium and training facilities and not on ageing players like us.

A bit of googling suggests that most of it was just covering annual losses untill they started making money on player investment.   

And that is certainly something that we can follow Brentfords lead on, and Val referenced it on his latest presser. 

He talked about creating capital assets for the club through recruitment of young players yet to reach there potential and development of academy players.  THe opposite of our recent obsession with signing experienced (for experienced read past it) pros with little potential resale value which was a horrible hangover from the Pullis years.

[liverbaggie]

Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.

[BigFrank20]

Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.

My view is that the plethora of red cards we seem able to accumulate are in the main due to our midfield constantly being swamped by the opposition midfielders and the consequent need for extreme actions to try and recover the ball by two tired, in the later stages of a game, and ageing midfielders
A flexible 352 could well be an answer

[baggiejohn]

God knows where Stan's gone, would have enjoyed his weekly transfer round up right around now   .

The Express and Star Albion podcasts with Joe Masi was a great listen this week. You can tell this season has worn him down on twitter with some of the tweets he gets, but he answered a few questions about tactical flexibility with Ismael and confirmed that Yes - him, Steve Madeley and Joe Chapman have asked on a number of occasions in their small press conferences about Val's view around tactical/formation tweaks (he says he has written about it a few times in the E and S).

Ismael's view is that 352 is a flexible formation that provides answers to the majority of issues you will encounter in a match. He says you can push full backs forward to become auxiliary wingers, you can have one of your front 3 dropping deeper and being a quasi-playmaker, you can make one of your centre backs into a Chris Wilder-style overlapping winger. He also said Val said post Cardiff that our issue is that we don't have somebody taking up the positions in the  box that he needs his forward to when receiving crosses and this is what Dike will bring. Masi did say that with Ismael admitting he didn't have the players in the first half of the season for his system, it is a shame he hasn't tried to tailor things to fit what he has, but Ismael is that set on the players fully understanding their roles for the longer term, then he won't change.

Ultimately he feels that with Ismael, you probably need to buy into the long term vision (as he admits short term it hasn't been great). Does Val's system provide us with a blue print for establishing ourselves in the prem long term?

Are you sure he said 3:5:2? Can't find anything other than 3:4:3 being the most flexible formation.


This is a good article on the advantages and disadvantages of the 3:4:3 formation.

https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/

[johnny Cash]

Tend to think that Leeds & Brentford are something of a blueprint, both did it without huge investment.

The problem is, we couldn't exactly replicate either, Leeds relative success was largely down to Bielsa & Brentfords to Rasmus Ankersen. Both men have stamped their own personalities into their respective positions.
We have to hope that Ismael can do the same for us.

Leeds spent £100 million when they were first promoted according with no outgoings:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/leeds-united/transfers/verein/399/plus/?saison_id=2020&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

[baggiejohn]

Leeds spent £100 million when they were first promoted according with no outgoings:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/leeds-united/transfers/verein/399/plus/?saison_id=2020&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Personally, I wouldn't consider £100 million a huge investment, they could cover the transfer fees with media income from the EPL. Also it's likely that the high value players they bought would hold their value in the event of a sale.
Not something we could say with some of our recent purchases.

[gazberg]

Personally, I wouldn't consider £100 million a huge investment, they could cover the transfer fees with media income from the EPL. Also it's likely that the high value players they bought would hold their value in the event of a sale.
Not something we could say with some of our recent purchases.

It's all relative isn't it. If we had a 100m investment that would be almost unthinkable compared to what we are used to. Leeds definitely purchased their promotion.

[baggiejohn]

It's all relative isn't it. If we had a 100m investment that would be almost unthinkable compared to what we are used to. Leeds definitely purchased their promotion.

But they didn't, that was money spent after their promotion in 20/21 season.

[gazberg]

But they didn't, that was money spent after their promotion in 20/21 season.

You are right. I stand shamed!

[SmethDan]

Regardless of when it was spent or how transfer fees are split over a number of seasons, I think that's still £60M more than Albion have ever committed to future outgoings in one transfer window (give or take a mouldy toffee covered in dust or two).

[Hull Baggie]

Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

[johnny Cash]

Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

Yeah Baggies just had a senior moment when typing. I didnt even notice it when I read it and knew he meant 3-4-3.

[SmethDan]

Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.

No Liver', apparently not chap  .

[NJS]

3-4-3

Opposition attacks  - wing backs drop back; one forward joins midfield -> 5-3-2

Attack repelled. Ball swung across to wing forward with his wing back advancing to support 4-4-2

More players join the attack  or press opposition defence  3-4-3

I don't think the theoretical formation matters as much as the middle four and perhaps one forward all being capable of playing multiple roles.  It used to be known as total football (cf Ajax)

You can have 3-5-2 but you can't effectively press with just two forwards.

 

[boinging_along]

Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

Wonder if part of the problem is that he sees us as having 4 midfielders, when I see us having 5 defenders with the occasional run forward from the wing backs.

Even if the wing backs get forward they end up occupying the same space as the two wide forwards.  So we still end up with 2 CM's and 1 forward in the middle.

[wodenson46]

This is why it's taking time to sink in. It requires a bit of a football brain to take up the right supporting positions and to time the runs. We don't have much of that, so it has to be drilled in by practice and more practice, but it is a poor second option to the natural instinct of 'the right players'.

[Baggies]

Are you sure he said 3:5:2? Can't find anything other than 3:4:3 being the most flexible formation.


This is a good article on the advantages and disadvantages of the 3:4:3 formation.

https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/

Yeah it's 343 - it's me rushing when typing and not engaging my brain.

[Baggies]

Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

It was a typo on my behalf - we play 343 and he has no plans to deviate from it because he thinks it has all of the answers. I just didn't proof read when typing.

[GREGMT]

We now have Bartley, Bryan and O'Shea all injured, Ajayi at ANC and Kipre suspended.

Surely now its impossible to retain 3 CB's?  A change of system is required at least in the short term.

The best plan is for Livermore to play centre back until we get the full complement back.

TGH should play with Molumby, then Mowatt comes back in when the ban is over.

[frazzle]

We now have Bartley, Bryan and O'Shea all injured, Ajayi at ANC and Kipre suspended.

Surely now its impossible to retain 3 CB's?  A change of system is required at least in the short term.

The best plan is for Livermore to play centre back until we get the full complement back.

TGH should play with Molumby, then Mowatt comes back in when the ban is over.

100% correct. And that would make us a better side in my view.

[wodenson46]

that would work for me

[beechyboy90]

Suspensions mean Livermore at cb which might be a good thing for us as it forces improvement in cm.

Presume with no snodgrass of Zohore both are going at some point this window? Can we assume hugil is also going back?

[baggiebof]

It's a shame Standaman isn't around anymore for many reasons but his squad updates with contract expiry dates were ace. I'm by no means writing off this season but should we not go up we would have to cut our costs slightly you'd expect but also would have to be looking at our costs once the parachute money dried up altogether in case we were still in the Championship. I think Livermore's contract expires in the summer which isn't very much like us, we've always handed out extensions to established players who are viewed ad good characters so wonder if that is the beginning of this contingency planning. We definitely moved on a lot of these type of players last year, Gibbs etc however would be good to know what we were losing salary wise in the summer, obviously Johnstone is another. You'd think losing those two alone would give some wriggle room.

EDIT: A quick look on transfernarkt reminded me that Snodgrass is due out too as well as Button (loanees too obviously), this should give some wriggle room for maneuver. Interestingly there are lots of expiring contracts in 2023, which would be the end of our parachute payments so hopefully we see some succession planning this summer with that in mind, either way. As has been advocated by others, whether that's a younger player or two that can be worked on our loaned out in order to be ready for the first team (think Mulumbu, Dorrans and Dawson from the past) or whatever, it would be glad to see.

[MarkW]

It's a shame Standaman isn't around anymore for many reasons but his squad updates with contract expiry dates were ace. I'm by no means writing off this season but should we not go up we would have to cut our costs slightly you'd expect but also would have to be looking at our costs once the parachute money dried up altogether in case we were still in the Championship. I think Livermore's contract expires in the summer which isn't very much like us, we've always handed out extensions to established players who are viewed ad good characters so wonder if that is the beginning of this contingency planning. We definitely moved on a lot of these type of players last year, Gibbs etc however would be good to know what we were losing salary wise in the summer, obviously Johnstone is another. You'd think losing those two alone would give some wriggle room.

EDIT: A quick look on transfernarkt reminded me that Snodgrass is due out too as well as Button (loanees too obviously), this should give some wriggle room for maneuver. Interestingly there are lots of expiring contracts in 2023, which would be the end of our parachute payments so hopefully we see some succession planning this summer with that in mind, either way. As has been advocated by others, whether that's a younger player or two that can be worked on our loaned out in order to be ready for the first team (think Mulumbu, Dorrans and Dawson from the past) or whatever, it would be glad to see.

This what you're after?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=drivesdk