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West Bromwich Albion FC Forums => West Bromwich Albion FC => Topic started by: beechyboy90 on October 25, 2018, 06:22:55 AM

Title: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 25, 2018, 06:22:55 AM
For me the current tactics personnel and system
Isn't working the defence aren't protected and the midfield is totally overrun and we carry the front 3 in games.

For the majority of the games we have been overrun and outplayed regardless of the results. So for a while that result hasn't been coming for me.

For me We have 2 choices of system we could switch to that would still keep our attacking impetus and also make us abit more solid and might give us chance to control the game;


           Johnstone
Dawson Bartley Hegazi Gibbs
    Field Barry Livermore
    Phillips Gayle Barnes

Bench: myhill tosin brunt Morrison Burke sako Rodriguez

Or:

              Johnstone
Dawson Bartley Hegazi Gibbs
           Barry Livermore
       Phillips Barnes brunt
             Gayle/Rodriguez

Bench: myhill tosin Townsend Morrison (or hoolahan) field sako Rodriquez (or Gayle depending which starts)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on October 25, 2018, 07:14:30 AM
One good think about those formations is that it keeps Mears and HRK away from the 18
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 25, 2018, 07:53:53 AM
I'm glad you started this topic beechyboy as I was going to do the same.

The three at the back isn't working for us that's clear to most people except Moore and Jones. It doesn't suit the players we have. Nor does 4-4-2. There is an option for retaining three at the back but it means we need a five in midfield. Harvey Barnes cannot play in that system he would either have to play as one of a pair up front or in the 3 man midfield. If he does that he becomes like any other midfielder and wastes energy playing to deep. He will be less effective in the final third. We need a formation that suits the players we have, that gives us more solidity, particularly throughout the spine of the team and that retains our threat going forward. Step forward the system we went to in the end yesterday : 4-3-3.


                                                     Johnstone
                                                    Myhill
 
(Dawson make do for now)       Hegazi                 Bartley                      Gibbs
Mears                                     Dawson                Adarabioyo                Townsend
                                                                                                     
                       Livermore               Morrison                    Field
                       Harper                    Hoolahan                  Barry

         Phillips                                Rodriguez                              Barnes
         Burke                                  Gayle                                    Sako


Now the above is a for example. I know there are some players left out and and I don't mean that 1-11 to be taken too literally but it highlights a more more solid system. No square pegs in round holes, no more getting over-run in midfield and Barnes / Phillips left to play where they can do damage, no wating energy tracking back. Eden Hazard doesn't track back all the time nor do Salah or Mane (examples). It's a bit of a myth that you need flair players to do defensive duties. Yes they have to do a job but not to the detriment of wasting their energy. NO team in the Championship is going to push full backs on with Barnes / Phillips playing high up the pitch.

In midfield let Sam Field bomb up and down. He did that a few times last night and he's the only one we have that can do that. In the end it resulted in him almost scoring with a curler. Livermore will hustle and bustle, and the likes of Barry, Morrison, Hoolahan can all play with the ball, all of them have the ability to dictate the game.

At the back there is less space between the defenders, naturally, proper cover in front of them and all can concentrate on defending.

It doesn't mean we can't play football, we can but in this league you have to scrap as well. In this system we can do that, the spine is more solid and the team better balanced overall.

Also we don't have to keep tinkering with systems every time someone goes off and we have adequate cover all over with the exception of right back but we all know that we'll have to muddle through till January.

A couple of seasons ago Chelsea looked poor until they found the right system for them and went 3-5-2. It made them a completely different team. That could be the same for us, it could be the making of us. It suits the players we have and I'm sure we'd be a much better team adapting to 4-3-3.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wobbs68 on October 25, 2018, 11:16:40 AM
Great thread.  We have the personnel, just not the correct tactics.  We have been carrying our attacking players which has caused us problems at the back.  You simply cant be flamboyant without the ball!

For me Mears, Bartley and Tosin are no better if not worse than our home grown players so shouldn't be ever starting.  We need to stop conceding goals, add pace to the team and play in a system that the players are comfortable in.  It is clear that some of our players are unhappy on the pitch because of out tactics.

Barnes is a fantastic player but we are only utilizing him for about a third of the match.  He may not like it but we need him more involved more often.  An attacking player is going to have to be sacrificed in my opinion to make us stronger and at the moment I think that has to be JayRod, but what a striker to bring on if needs be.  Kanu shouldn't be on the bench.  He inst good enough to change games.

My formation would be either be 4 -5 -1 or 4 -4-1-1.  Based on the players that we have I'd go for:

                                                                           Johnstone

                                                                  Field Dawson  Hegazi  Gibbs

                                                              Philips  Livermore Morrison Barry Barnes
                                                                                         
                                                                              Gayle

Yes, Field at right back!  Pace, strength, agility, technical ability, physic and better than what weve got.  I'd also consider Barry as a centre half on the left in a 4 man defence which would allow Dawson to go right back.  Captain - Livermore or Morrison
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggies_24 on October 25, 2018, 11:25:41 AM
For me I would play 4-2-3-1
                Johnson
Dawson   Tosin   Hegazi    Gibbs
   
              Livermore  Field/Barry

 Phillips      Barnes.     Sako/ Hoolahan

                    Gayle/Jrod

There’s balance in that team we don’t negate going forward but look a lot stronger at the back and in midfield, it also gets rid of players who aren’t performing and don’t deserve to be in the team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on October 25, 2018, 11:40:10 AM
I would get 4-3-3.

Johnstone

Dawson / Tosin / Hegazi or Bartley / Gibbs

Livermore and Field or Barry
(Barry and Field both to sit deep and keep the ball ticking over so protects back 4 too)
(Livermore is more box to box and provides plenty of cover for the defence and Barry / Field too)

Barnes as the attacking midfielder

Phillips / Gayle / Jrod as the three man attack, they all have good movement so they could interchange a lot, come deep, switch flanks, etc rather than one be classed as the left winger, one as the striker, etc.

That formations gives us a solid defensive platform and allows the current defenders to do what they are good at - defend.

With Livermore, Barry or Field in front it gives the defence protection but also allows actual ball players to get on the ball when we play out from the back instead of dropping back 20 yards to get the ball which is what they have been doing, they will already be in that space.

Barnes carries the ball well and with the quality of the front 3, plus the support of Barnes and Livermore, there are plenty of goals in there too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on October 25, 2018, 12:45:16 PM
Yes, Field at right back!  Pace, strength, agility, technical ability, physic and better than what weve got.

Not a bad idea, apart from the fact he's left footed.

If we're going to play a young midfielder there out of position, Harper and Edwards are both right footed and so would bring more balance.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: 17GD on October 25, 2018, 01:13:25 PM
A few things strike me as odd and I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but Dawson is taking a lot of stick lately when he never used to. He was always solid but the past few months he's been awful. And the other thing is Gibbs. He didn't make 100-odd appearances under Wenger just to make up the numbers. Yet here, he's a shadow of the former player he was.

And I also find is peculiar that DM was a defender but our defence is woeful. Usually former defenders have a decent defence but are weaker going forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: allenkevanastle on October 25, 2018, 03:04:04 PM
Interesting thread and yes, I think we all can see our players need to be in a back4 with some dfensive midfield in front of them. Incidentally, I think the last time I saw our defense so woefully vulnerable but goals were being scored was when Tony Mowbary was manager! What is it with centre halves that become managers?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: altonbaggie on October 25, 2018, 03:57:24 PM
Great thread.  I'm less concerned with the 3 at the back than the overrun midfield.  The defenders are already "not the best" at passing it or so need options which they tend not to have.  When they do pass it to one of the two central midfielders the opposition know to press and put us under pressure.  If we can slip past that press then we often look like we can score but the risk to reward is really hard to watch!

For me, we need to sacrifice Rodriguez and bring in, say, Morrison to strengthen that central midfield.  Livermore, Field, and Morrison combined should be able to give defenders options and protect them while still leaving us with the attacking threat we want.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on October 25, 2018, 04:19:47 PM
Great thread.  I'm less concerned with the 3 at the back than the overrun midfield.  The defenders are already "not the best" at passing it or so need options which they tend not to have.  When they do pass it to one of the two central midfielders the opposition know to press and put us under pressure.  If we can slip past that press then we often look like we can score but the risk to reward is really hard to watch!

For me, we need to sacrifice Rodriguez and bring in, say, Morrison to strengthen that central midfield.  Livermore, Field, and Morrison combined should be able to give defenders options and protect them while still leaving us with the attacking threat we want.
If we are relying on Jimmy Morrison to change our fortunes, we really are in a bad place. He is injured so often these days, and even when he isn't his form is woefully inconsistent. Hoolahan might be a better option, but the truth of the matter is that we desperately need a box to box midfielder in January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: altonbaggie on October 25, 2018, 04:44:16 PM
Agreed...but until January...Morrison or Hoolahan appear to be the option.  Or Harper but I wouldn't have both Field and Harper in there at the same time.  For system and tactics having 3 in the middle allows us to continue with this style of play for me..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pie on October 25, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
I've posted on several occasions that a 4-2-3-1 would be ideal for us and the squad we have.

Ideally with this we would buy a natural RB in January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 25, 2018, 06:36:44 PM
Another benefit from a 433 would be genuine competition for positions and less square pegs in round holes (Dawson at rb be the only one really)

Phillips and Barnes as wing forwards with the likes of Sako and even Burke and leko waiting in the wings. Be beneficial for players like Burke Edwards leko as we could give them game time with less fear as we wouldn't be expecting them to track back as much.

Striker wise Gayle and Rodriguez know they are in the team as HRK isn't really much more than a 3rd or 4th choice he's never going to be a starter and not even a game changer. So having the 2 better strikers competing for one birth might give Rodriguez the shot in the arm he needs.

Also the system is easy enough to pulis out for an away game and switch to 451.
The 433 would allow our passing game to stay without us being unbalanced and overrun.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 25, 2018, 06:43:23 PM
Another benefit from a 433 would be genuine competition for positions and less square pegs in round holes (Dawson at rb be the only one really)

Phillips and Barnes as wing forwards with the likes of Sako and even Burke and leko waiting in the wings. Be beneficial for players like Burke Edwards leko as we could give them game time with less fear as we wouldn't be expecting them to track back as much.

Striker wise Gayle and Rodriguez know they are in the team as HRK isn't really much more than a 3rd or 4th choice he's never going to be a starter and not even a game changer. So having the 2 better strikers competing for one birth might give Rodriguez the shot in the arm he needs.

Also the system is easy enough to pulis out for an away game and switch to 451.
The 433 would allow our passing game to stay without us being unbalanced and overrun.


Agree word for word. You and I are singing from the same hymn sheet. It's a no brainer for me it is the one system that perfectly suits the players we have at the club.

The only area that's a problem is right back but that's the same whatever way we play. We desperately need to bring in at least one in January. If the club haven't got someone lined up someone's head needs to be chopped because they've had long enough to address an issue everybody knows about. Until January we will have to muddle on much as we have been doing up to now anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on October 25, 2018, 10:03:52 PM

Agree word for word. You and I are singing from the same hymn sheet. It's a no brainer for me it is the one system that perfectly suits the players we have at the club.

The only area that's a problem is right back but that's the same whatever way we play. We desperately need to bring in at least one in January. If the club haven't got someone lined up someone's head needs to be chopped because they've had long enough to address an issue everybody knows about. Until January we will have to muddle on much as we have been doing up to now anyway.
Or we say that the first time we get really done, coincides with the team picked being basically what many had been asking for and that whilst many disagreed with the selections/formation , for his first go at management for a club that had cut some serious cloth back...he weren't doing bad?

The point about the RB position, only really counts if we play 4 at the back, this could be the reason we are playing 3....and in Jan we make a purchase?

I've seen many comments about HRK, Mears ,Bartley being poor (and in instances they have ) but so have others, Barnes still has much to learn ,Phillips went missing last year , whereas mears played in the 4-1 with an assist and HRK scored in the 7-1

I'm not saying folk ain't right to highlight issues, but we ain't doing that bad....and it ant that long ago people would have given anything just for some excitement....
It has just been delivered
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on October 25, 2018, 10:05:16 PM
The problem with playing 4 at the back is that we either have to have Mears or Dawson at right-back. Mears can't get up and down the flank and if you thought Dawson is looking disinterested playing in the centre, imagine what he'd be like if he was asked to play at right-back when he's made it perfectly plain in the past that he wants to play in the centre.

It was pointed out by people on here right through the summer that it was imperative we signed a right-back, but we pathetically failed to do it and are now having to live with the consequences.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 25, 2018, 10:48:11 PM
Nobody at all has asked for us to play 3-4-1-2 zippy people just pick their teams based on the system we've been using.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jimmyj on October 26, 2018, 11:44:46 AM
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: kie the baggie on October 26, 2018, 02:30:44 PM
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.
Very much this but I would replace field with harper, field for a 20 year old does lack energy and harper a much better footballer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: leeiswba on October 26, 2018, 03:22:53 PM
Johnstone

Gibbs
Hegazi
Bartley
Dawson

Livermore
Barry/Field

Sakho/Brunt
Barnes
Phillips

Gayle

That would be my team now I think, a centre back and a centre midfielder would then be a priority in January
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 26, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
Have to say that I do like the idea of Barry in the back 4 or just very slightly advanced of a back 3, he should be a capable Libero at this level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on October 26, 2018, 03:45:13 PM
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.

Brian Dick in the Brummie Mail has also advocated using Barry in the centre of the defensive 3, it might well be worth a punt since he is at least a ball player and could help with distribution.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 26, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
________Johnston __________

 Dawson----Hegazi------  Tosin

--------------Barry--------------

Phillips -----Livermore--------Gibbs

     Sako---------------Barnes

---------------Gayle--------------

subs, Myhill, Field, Morrison, Bartley(sadly), JRod, Hoolahan, Burke
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on October 26, 2018, 06:08:57 PM
Have to say that I do like the idea of Barry in the back 4 or just very slightly advanced of a back 3, he should be a capable Libero at this level.
I think he'd get caught out for pace at centre half, but in the old Beckenbauer sweeper role he'd surely bring some calmness to things
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on October 26, 2018, 06:35:00 PM
The system won't be changed. I'd have Barry at lcb instead of the woeful Bartley, I'd have Morrison in for Rodriguez with Barnes off the striker giving us an extra man in midfield. Apart from that, carry on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on October 26, 2018, 07:11:41 PM
Need to go to back 4 with Barry sweeping a middle three of Morrison and livermore. I'd stick Barnes in the number ten roll with Phillips out wide on right and Gayle up top.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 26, 2018, 07:14:37 PM
The system won't be changed. I'd have Barry at lcb instead of the woeful Bartley, I'd have Morrison in for Rodriguez with Barnes off the striker giving us an extra man in midfield. Apart from that, carry on.


Sadly I think you're right. It'd be a very pleasant surprise if common sense prevails.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 26, 2018, 07:46:50 PM
I think there are couple of points we need to bear in mind. We do not have a natural target man and that rules out systems which require one and equally we have to pass through the midfield and get the ball to feet for our forwards in the opposition box.

I am not sure 3 at the back is a particular issue or rather I am not sure that going to a 4 fixes the problems. The long standing issues are in midfield and without a fix for that we are in a series of sub optimum options all of which have slightly different issues. Equally we seem to have a number of options in certain positions and virtually none in others.

Personally I would drop Rodriguez from the current line up to get another body in midfield to give the defence better passing options and better cover and support to the wing backs.

There seem to be 3 options 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (with a regista or a trequartista)

4-3-3

                                  Johnstone

          Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   Gibbs

                                          Field

                               Livermore    Morrison

         Phillips                         Gayle                       Barnes


This could pivot from a 3 at the back in possession to a back 4 out of possession. Allowing Gibbs to overlap as Barnes would tend to cut inside.

Or 3-4-3 ( trequartista)

                                         Johnstone

                       Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   

          Phillips                        Livermore                   Gibbs

                                            Hoolahan

            Sakho                         Gayle                       Barnes

The alternative is a regista version would see Field drop into the deep sitting role similar to the 4-3-3.

There are alternatives to nearly every position in the line up we are struggling for Right Back and or Wing Back. 

There is an argument for sticking with a style and shape because it allows for players to grow into the positions whereas chopping and changing just breeds confusion. However I think we have reached a point where Moore needs to look at alternatives.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 26, 2018, 08:13:28 PM
I think there are couple of points we need to bear in mind. We do not have a natural target man and that rules out systems which require one and equally we have to pass through the midfield and get the ball to feet for our forwards in the opposition box.

I am not sure 3 at the back is a particular issue or rather I am not sure that going to a 4 fixes the problems. The long standing issues are in midfield and without a fix for that we are in a series of sub optimum options all of which have slightly different issues. Equally we seem to have a number of options in certain positions and virtually none in others.

Personally I would drop Rodriguez from the current line up to get another body in midfield to give the defence better passing options and better cover and support to the wing backs.

There seem to be 3 options 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (with a regista or a trequartista)

4-3-3

                                  Johnstone

          Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   Gibbs

                                          Field

                               Livermore    Morrison

         Phillips                         Gayle                       Barnes


This could pivot from a 3 at the back in possession to a back 4 out of possession. Allowing Gibbs to overlap as Barnes would tend to cut inside.

Or 3-4-3 ( trequartista)

                                         Johnstone

                       Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   

          Phillips              Livermore      Barry         Gibbs

                                            Hoolahan

            Sakho                         Gayle                       Barnes

The alternative is a regista version would see Field drop into the deep sitting role similar to the 4-3-3.

There are alternatives to nearly every position in the line up we are struggling for Right Back and or Wing Back. 

There is an argument for sticking with a style and shape because it allows for players to grow into the positions whereas chopping and changing just breeds confusion. However I think we have reached a point where Moore needs to look at alternatives.


Your second team is a no go mate. No ref is going to let us play with 12 men.  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Xpresso on October 26, 2018, 09:01:54 PM
Someone wrote:

Quote
We have the personnel, just not the correct tactics

In my view we clearly don't have the personnel. We've too many players too far into their 30s to withstand the rigors of the two-games-a-week demands of the Championship. I suspect Big Dave's hands were tied when it came to recruiting over the summer, which is why we've been left having to rely far too much on players like Brunt, Barry, Mears, Morrison and Hoolahan. They should be there to provide back up at this stage of their careers, instead we're having to rely too much on them as big players rather than bit players.

Opposition coaches/managers have been quick to spot that if they flood the midfield with pace and movement they can carve us open at will. Our three at the back are all too often left exposed by our total lack of pace in midfield and by the lack of movement in front of them when they're looking to play the ball forward.

The warning signs have been there for several games. The squad is just as threadbare as it was last season and I can't see that Big Dave has many viable alternatives.

Our recruitment over the last three or four seasons has been abysmal and now we're paying the price for it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 26, 2018, 09:12:31 PM
Someone wrote:

In my view we clearly don't have the personnel. We've too many players too far into their 30s to withstand the rigors of the two-games-a-week demands of the Championship. I suspect Big Dave's hands were tied when it came to recruiting over the summer, which is why we've been left having to rely far too much on players like Brunt, Barry, Mears, Morrison and Hoolahan. They should be there to provide back up at this stage of their careers, instead we're having to rely too much on them as big players rather than bit players.

Opposition coaches/managers have been quick to spot that if they flood the midfield with pace and movement they can carve us open at will. Our three at the back are all too often left exposed by our total lack of pace in midfield and by the lack of movement in front of them when they're looking to play the ball forward.

The warning signs have been there for several games. The squad is just as threadbare as it was last season and I can't see that Big Dave has many viable alternatives.

Our recruitment over the last three or four seasons has been abysmal and now we're paying the price for it.
I'm pretty sure DM must have been heavily involved in the decision to keep Morrison though. I can't see that Jenkins would have been insistent that we keep paying Morrison decent wages given the return we've had over the past 18 months. Lampard and several others would have replaced Morrison with a younger fitter AM option.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tylerm on October 26, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
Just watching QPR Vile and it brings home how pedestrian and lacking in energy our central midfield is. No sign of constant sideways and backwards passes. Just what we need to link the defence and attack
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 26, 2018, 11:29:06 PM

Your second team is a no go mate. No ref is going to let us play with 12 men.  ;)

Thanks amended in original post
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on October 27, 2018, 01:23:37 PM
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.

Interesting having Barry in the back 3. Didn't he play a lot at LB early on in his career? He may have lost a bit of pace but I'd take him there over Bartley.




Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 29, 2018, 07:09:46 AM
With some of the fringe players getting game time on Saturday a few observations.

I am now more convinced than ever that in order to get control of the ball and help the defence we need to sacrifice one of the strikers to get an extra midfielder on the pitch. Sako not being a striker by trade meant he dropped into better positions than Rodriguez does when he is playing in the role (some of my reservations about Sako confirmed but being the last patient fan alive let's wait and see how he does if he gets a few games). 

The RWB/RB remains a concern I haven't been particularly impressed with Phillips since his return from injury. I would hope he hasn't had one of his purple patches and is now drifting back to being the rather ineffectual player that he's been for large parts of his Albion career.

I thought the Morrison/Livermore combination looked better than most of central midfield combinations did this season. As ever I remain unconvinced by Morrision off the ball in central mid but we certainly were better on the ball for his contribution. I think going forward playing those 2 either in front of Field or behind Hoolihan would greatly improve the team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 29, 2018, 07:33:15 PM
With some of the fringe players getting game time on Saturday a few observations.

I am now more convinced than ever that in order to get control of the ball and help the defence we need to sacrifice one of the strikers to get an extra midfielder on the pitch. Sako not being a striker by trade meant he dropped into better positions than Rodriguez does when he is playing in the role (some of my reservations about Sako confirmed but being the last patient fan alive let's wait and see how he does if he gets a few games). 

The RWB/RB remains a concern I haven't been particularly impressed with Phillips since his return from injury. I would hope he hasn't had one of his purple patches and is now drifting back to being the rather ineffectual player that he's been for large parts of his Albion career.

I thought the Morrison/Livermore combination looked better than most of central midfield combinations did this season. As ever I remain unconvinced by Morrision off the ball in central mid but we certainly were better on the ball for his contribution. I think going forward playing those 2 either in front of Field or behind Hoolihan would greatly improve the team.


I'm not keen on Hoolahan. I do think he's the type of player who can do a job on certain occasions off the bench but overall he's too small, lightweight certainly for a central midfield role. He's the type of player you use if you're in front in a game and want to retain possession towards the end of the game. Morrison and Livermore is OK, certainly better than any combination which includes Brunt but personally I'd prefer Barry alongside Livermore as he's more robust and has more defensive know how than Jimmy. That's not to say Mozza can't do a job I just feel Barry is the slightly better option.

I think at the start of the season I advocated 4-3-3 for this squad and I'm more convinced than ever now that this needs to be our default system. The third man in midfield whenever possible has to be someone that get forward and offer some sort of attacking threat from midfield, something we just do not have. There is only one man at the club that can do that, Sam Field. A lot of people see Sam as a holding midfielder, I don't. The Derby game was a mess all round but Field did do things that no other midfielder does. First half he made one run off the ball into what you'd call the old inside left position. It ended with him competing for a header and winning a free kick. It must be the only time all season I've seen anyone from our central midfield go beyond the strikers off the ball. In a three man midfield that is something you need. Second half Field carried the ball forward from the middle of the park three or four times. Again that is something we just do not do otherwise. In a midfield three he is ideal.

Regarding Matt Phillips, he is a winger by nature. The 4-3-3 with one man up top and Barnes one side, Phillips the other is ideal for him. At the moment he is playing a physically demanding role at wingback, his energy needs conserving for the top end of the pitch. It is currently a square peg in a round hole with Matty at wingback. He's done well but it's not ideal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on October 29, 2018, 10:25:56 PM
Agree that Phillips has not looked the same player since his return and was really blowing with 15 still to go against Blackburn.....still one our better players in a poor display though.  Totally agree about Sam Field as well, on his performance against Derby; didn't look to have the technique to play in a two but would like to see him given the job of breaking past the line....potential to have the odd goal in him to me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 30, 2018, 06:56:39 AM
The reason why I suggest Hoolihan/Field in the role of play maker either behind or in front of a midfield two is because of their passing ability and keeping the ball is key to playing into the good positions in and around the box for our forwards

Phillips is not the best defensively this I know. The difference between good and bad Phillips is an unwillingness to take on players or show for the ball in tight spots.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 30, 2018, 09:39:04 PM
Agree that Phillips has not looked the same player since his return and was really blowing with 15 still to go against Blackburn.....still one our better players in a poor display though.  Totally agree about Sam Field as well, on his performance against Derby; didn't look to have the technique to play in a two but would like to see him given the job of breaking past the line....potential to have the odd goal in him to me.
Field's performance against Derby may have raised some questions but circumstances meant he was thrown into that with very little football under his belt (especially as a CM)...and against a vibrant Derby team who outnumbered us in the middle of the park. In short I wouldn't judge his ability to play in a 2 based on that game (though we don't have any central 2 good enough to cope with being outnumbered).
Re Phillips, he seems to need confidence in his own fitness to be at his best. His best form coincides with periods where he stays fit for a fairly prolonged period. As one of the two main creative sparks in the team that's causes us a problem.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DurhamBaggie on October 31, 2018, 10:20:24 AM
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                       Johnstone

                                  Field                               Dawson                             Barry



          Phillips                     Livermore                    Hoolohan / Morrison              Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                            Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                            Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 31, 2018, 10:45:02 AM
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                                Johnstone

                                   Field                                       Dawson                                      Barry



Phillips                                         Livermore                                 Hoolohan / Morrison                     Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                                    Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                                   Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies.

I would be concerned about facing pacey wingers with that team, it would require Gibbs / Phillips to provide extensive cover
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 31, 2018, 06:59:50 PM
Field is left footed no way will he play on the right of a back three. Hoolahan's stature dictates that he won't play CM either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on October 31, 2018, 11:03:49 PM
I've always favoured a 352 setup,but you have to have the players who understand how it work and have the skill to play it,including the keeper!
The 3 is a problem Philips and Gibbs OK
Front 2 OK.
10 OK.
Then do we have two defensive midfielders or one defending and one attacking with the 10?
Its those two mids ,I say Livermore and field should be there.
We really need a cb who's strong and in charge perhaps we'll get one in January sales,its a shame because we're almost there as a team.
The coaches have done well considering last season anyway if we can win at Hull we'll still be right in the thick of it,we can't afford to let anyone break away.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on November 01, 2018, 01:06:00 AM
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 01, 2018, 05:13:32 AM
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

4 at the back defiantly not sure about 442 think when we have the likes of Barnes Philips and sako Burke leko waiting we need to be playing wing forwards- 433 or 4231
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 01, 2018, 08:57:18 AM
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 01, 2018, 09:12:48 AM
We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?


When we've played four at the back this season we've played 4-4-2. I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 and it certainly doesn't suit our slowboats in midfield.

The problem we have is pretty similar to that playing 4-4-2 - we need an extra man in the middle of the park. 3-4-1-2 or 4-4-2 we're still going to often get outnumbered in midfield.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 01, 2018, 09:36:16 AM

When we've played four at the back this season we've played 4-4-2. I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 and it certainly doesn't suit our slowboats in midfield.

The problem we have is pretty similar to that playing 4-4-2 - we need an extra man in the middle of the park. 3-4-1-2 or 4-4-2 we're still going to often get outnumbered in midfield.

If the 1 in the 4-1 midfield we currently use dropped back when we're out of possession we wouldn't get over run quite so much as we'd then have 5 across the middle, unfortunately that doesn't really happen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 01, 2018, 09:47:59 AM
If the 1 in the 4-1 midfield we currently use dropped back when we're out of possession we wouldn't get over run quite so much as we'd then have 5 across the middle, unfortunately that doesn't really happen.


It won't as that one is Harvey Barnes. And nor should it (IMO). Every time you see so called experts on TV / radio they all go on about flair players tracking back. I don't believe in that. Hazard doesn't do it, Salah doesn't do it, Best never did it, Maradona never did it, Ronaldo doesn't do it, Messi doesn't do it etc. Now I know we're talking Albion in the Championship and not world class teams but the same principal applies. You don't want your flair players knackering themselves running all over the park in a defensive capacity.

Football teams are made up of workers and magicians (in a relative football sense). If you play like Pulis does, yes you need everybody to defend but if you play predominantly on the front foot you need less of that.

You can have a 3-5-2 sure, but then Barnes either plays in midfield which will not suit him, up front where he won't be able to receive the ball to his feet facing goal or you don't play him at all.

One thing for sure, we're not getting the best out of him at the moment because teams have figured out how we play and where Barnes is likely to be and they know if you stop Barnes you stop Albion.

Just to pick up on your stats you posted earlier but if you took the samples from our first three games and our last three I'm guessing the stats then favour the first three games. Not being pedantic, honest  ;D ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on November 01, 2018, 10:12:44 AM
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                       Johnstone

                                  Field                               Dawson                             Barry



          Phillips                     Livermore                    Hoolohan / Morrison              Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                            Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                            Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies.

Enjoyed your post and I am thinking quite like minded regarding needing a ball player at the back and that we would be better off with two number 10s. I think your team above would leave us a little weak from set-pieces and I think Field would be unfairly exposed at the back. I would take a similar tact to you but with a bit more steel:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Barry

Phillips
Livermore
Field
Gibbs

Morrison
Barnes

Gayle 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mister AT on November 01, 2018, 11:06:53 AM
I watched Derby last night and they set up 4-3-3 and the personnel they have is very similar to what we have here and we could set up the same way and be effective:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Tosin/Bartley
Gibbs

Barry holding

Livermore and one of Brunt/Field/Morrison either side of him (I would prefer Field just for energy levels)

Then you can pick any of the following for the wide roles:
Rodriguez/Phillips/Barnes/Sako/Brunt

with Gayle up top.

If we were concerned about being out numbered or leaving our fullbacks exposed he could easily slot Brunt left to provide cover for Gibbs, we already know Phillips has the discipline to play that winger role, and JRod would track back also.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 01, 2018, 11:39:55 AM
Looks like we're set to appoint a chief scout.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-set-make-key-15357103
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 01, 2018, 11:46:25 AM
Enjoyed your post and I am thinking quite like minded regarding needing a ball player at the back and that we would be better off with two number 10s. I think your team above would leave us a little weak from set-pieces and I think Field would be unfairly exposed at the back. I would take a similar tact to you but with a bit more steel:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Barry

Phillips
Livermore
Field
Gibbs

Morrison
Barnes

Gayle
I've not really fancied Barry at CH but the more I think about it, and looking at your suggestion, the more it grows on me. I'd be happy go with that side, with Sako and Rodriguez off the bench if we are chasing the game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 01, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?

really interesting stats and suggest the 3 at the back is the correct policy,

to your question "Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?"  I really believe its the personnel in that formation. Having traditional stoppers is not an ideal plan when you are trying to play your way out from the back ! - Stating the obvious - I know !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on November 01, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

who are you playing at right back? Tyrone Mears?

If we're going to be a possession based team then we have to have the five across midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on November 01, 2018, 04:17:28 PM
who are you playing at right back? Tyrone Mears?

If we're going to be a possession based team then we have to have the five across midfield.
451 its like garlic bread , its the future or for us it should be !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on November 01, 2018, 07:28:15 PM
Taking Rodriguez out for another midfielder would curtail most of our problems imo.


4-5-1 all day long.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 01, 2018, 08:34:10 PM
4-5-1 / 4-3-3 are very similar in fact there is hardly a fag paper width between the two depending on how you play. Harvey Barnes at the moment is classed as a "1" in our current formation of 3-4-"1"-2 whereas if he and Phillips played wide from a similar starting position in terms of depth most people wouldn't call it a 4-3-"2"-1 (a few would). As we play on the front foot I'd prefer to call it 4-3-3, if we were a man behind the ball outfit then I'd call it 4-5-1.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on November 04, 2018, 11:02:45 AM
Club needs a clear out of playing staff who frankly are not good enough to get us back into Premier league never mind stay in it. If Moore doesn't realise that then he needs to pick up his p45 as well.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie steve on November 05, 2018, 08:12:37 AM
Club needs a clear out of playing staff who frankly are not good enough to get us back into Premier league never mind stay in it. If Moore doesn't realise that then he needs to pick up his p45 as well.


The opportunity to do this was in the summer  ,
Keeping players on whose contracts had finished was a mistake and getting the likes of Mears abd Hoolahan was another mistake
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on November 05, 2018, 12:54:19 PM

The opportunity to do this was in the summer  ,
Keeping players on whose contracts had finished was a mistake and getting the likes of Mears abd Hoolahan was another mistake

Next summer is when it will happen.

Myhill, Mears, Barry, Brunt, Hoolahan, and Sako all out of contract.

Adarabiyio, Barnes, and Gayle all going back off loan.

Gibbs is too good for the Championship and will get a move back to the Prem. Dawson and Rodriguez think they're too good for the Championship and will try to move back to the Prem again.

Going to be a big turnover of players, and if we get it wrong it'll be years before we're top flight again.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on November 05, 2018, 03:21:22 PM
Next summer is when it will happen.

Myhill, Mears, Barry, Brunt, Hoolahan, and Sako all out of contract.

Adarabiyio, Barnes, and Gayle all going back off loan.

Gibbs is too good for the Championship and will get a move back to the Prem. Dawson and Rodriguez think they're too good for the Championship and will try to move back to the Prem again.

Going to be a big turnover of players, and if we get it wrong it'll be years before we're top flight again.
As I have eluded to elsewhere, would you trust Darren Moore to preside over such massive change, even if he is given a substantial amount of money? I would not
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 05, 2018, 07:05:50 PM
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 05, 2018, 10:35:39 PM
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.
Cannot argue with any of that
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 06, 2018, 08:27:43 AM
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.

Didn't you see us against Bolton, Forest and Norwich then? We played 4 at the back in those games and he looked poor.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 06, 2018, 10:36:51 AM
Didn't you see us against Bolton, Forest and Norwich then? We played 4 at the back in those games and he looked poor.

Bolton yes, but I can't remember anybody who didn't look poor at times that day. Forest and Norwich - No.  I'm a HST holder only so have been saved the away day punishment some of you have suffered.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 07, 2018, 08:30:26 AM
Bolton yes, but I can't remember anybody who didn't look poor at times that day. Forest and Norwich - No.  I'm a HST holder only so have been saved the away day punishment some of you have suffered.

fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 07, 2018, 07:52:28 PM
fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
Completely agree about the personell and think more and more of us are coming to the 4-3-3 conclusion - more 4-2-3-1 for me. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on November 07, 2018, 09:54:44 PM
fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
This is absolutely the heart of our problems as far as I can see. Puts massive pressure on the defence and offers little to the attack. In a nutshell, we don't have any good, young, fast and creative midfielders at all. So we won't be going up this season. We have to get rid of all the players you list in the summer (with the possible exception of Field) and hope we make some good signings for next season. Then we may have a chance of promotion. May. The rest will be down to the head coach.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 08, 2018, 10:32:04 AM
This is absolutely the heart of our problems as far as I can see. Puts massive pressure on the defence and offers little to the attack. In a nutshell, we don't have any good, young, fast and creative midfielders at all. So we won't be going up this season. We have to get rid of all the players you list in the summer (with the possible exception of Field) and hope we make some good signings for next season. Then we may have a chance of promotion. May. The rest will be down to the head coach.
Bang on! They are just much of a muchness with none of them offering much by way of defensive cover or as an attacking outlet. Whatever 2 we pick we still get overrun.
The defence has not been great but, and I'm going out on a limb here, if we bring in 2 quality 1st team midfielders in in January, I think the defence will look a different animal and we may even get away with 3 at the back (although not Bartley).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on November 08, 2018, 01:28:42 PM
Bang on! They are just much of a muchness with none of them offering much by way of defensive cover or as an attacking outlet. Whatever 2 we pick we still get overrun.
The defence has not been great but, and I'm going out on a limb here, if we bring in 2 quality 1st team midfielders in in January, I think the defence will look a different animal and we may even get away with 3 at the back (although not Bartley).
I agree with regard to the defence, but rarely do we do much quality business in January. Think it will be the summer before we are able to assess the success or otherwise of our new scouting network.Which means we have to be patient and accept that we won't be going up this season. All the talk about our current squad being one of the best in the division is just delusion, apart from our loan signings.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 11, 2018, 10:33:16 AM
Interesting developments from yesterday

1. Shape 

Went to a 4-3-3 (seen it described as 4-2-2-2) with Robson-Kanu wide right Barnes wide left and Rodriguez through the middle. Much consternation pre match about Robson-Kanu's inclusion but it was logical in that set up i.e. he is left footed and balances the right footed Barnes on the opposite flank. Equally both wide players will drift inside to support the Centre Forward.

Midfield 3 was definitely Morrison and Livermore sitting deep (neither had a touch in the Leeds area) with Phillips playing in the wide right channel with licence to get forward.

Defence significantly moved to a back 4. Although Gibbs got forward quite a bit so often in possession it looked like a back 3 with Adarabioyo sitting behind Phillips.

2. Tactics

Went to the counter attack plainly was going to go long to negate the Leeds press. Once we got out of our own third there was some neat passing movements it wasn't all hit and hope by any means. Whether this will be effective against other teams is debatable but it certainly countered Leeds effectively.

3. Personnel

To the extent Leeds are a one off and therefore I am not sure how much we read into the changes  Brunt wasn't fit so whether his omission is permanent is doubtful. Morrison started ahead of Barry in what was in effect a double pivot and that is more significant but Barry has been injured recently. Personally I'm have never been convinced by Morrison in a Central Midfield role largely due to his lack of physical presence

Gayle on the bench was the big talking point pre game but again given his recent injury lay-off it might not be much more than protecting the player although if we are going more direct getting Robson-Kanu on the pitch given that he is the most physically combative of our forwards makes sense.

Field not in the squad a bit odd given a decent performance against Hull.

No player had a bad game so the next line up will be interesting given that Moore has tended to stick with winning teams.

I am not sure that this wasn't a specific plan to deal with Leeds or whether elements will be adopted as part of Moore's default game plan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on November 12, 2018, 08:52:41 AM
Three at the back should be banished as plan A. Possibly forever. Very rarely does it work in this country long term. Defenders just never seem comfortable playing it and good wing backs are hard to find.

Use three at the back sparingly or as a tactical switch in play.

Oh and a club should always have a specialist right back that isn’t 35 or 17 so they at least have an ability to play a proper back four without a shoehorn.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 24, 2018, 10:17:16 AM
Moore retained the team and the shape against Ipswich and was rewarded with a comfortable win.

 A few observations first off the implication of the 4-3-3 system is that there is one Centre Forward. Moore has to make a decision as to whether to play Rodriguez or Gayle. HRK plays by default in that he is our only left footed forward which is important for the balance of the 3 and he is probably our only forward who is comfortable playing with his back to goal.

Second observation I was genuinely surprised by Ipswich's approach to the game. Given their position and obvious limitations as a team I thought Lambert might set them up to sit deep and frustrate us hoping to pick something up from a set piece.  While not particularly effective they did their best to take the game to us.

I think this is an interesting characteristic which once applied to English football in general and while absolutely not applying to the top flight still holds true in the Championship. There is an expectation that the home team will at least try to take the game to the opposition regardless of the relative strength of their opponents. I can only think of 2 Championship teams which this might not apply to Forest and 'Boro and we have played both of those. As such I think we may have found a game plan that will work for us away from home.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on November 24, 2018, 03:32:52 PM
Three at the back should be banished as plan A. Possibly forever. Very rarely does it work in this country long term. Defenders just never seem comfortable playing it and good wing backs are hard to find.

Use three at the back sparingly or as a tactical switch in play.

Oh and a club should always have a specialist right back that isn’t 35 or 17 so they at least have an ability to play a proper back four without a shoehorn.
exactly this,and we would probably be 7 points clear at the top,if Dave had realised this,rather than trying to get championship centre halves to bring the ball out like Bobby Moore
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 24, 2018, 09:55:17 PM
Keith Andrews made a decent point that when we were attacking we had a back 3 as Gibbs had plenty of license to get forward down the left whereas Toisin is obviously more defensively minded. Flexibility within certain systems is no bad thing.

Re the midfield, it's difficult to judge relative merits in different systems. In midfield in the last 2 games Livermore and Morrison have both been able to play fairly deep together because of the impetus Phillips has given us playing a bit more centrally than when he's at wing back. With the back 3 system, the central 2 were pretty much split with Livermore more advanced and whether it was Brunt or Barry they were more isolated behind.

With the way the league is shaping up we can't afford to drop points while we adjust to different systems and it's looking like the 4-3-3 is the one we are more comfortable with.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 10, 2018, 01:36:16 AM
Having another couple of games with 4-3-3 and a few enforced changes in personnel. I think there are a few things that we can observe.

The 4-3-3 needs two wide attackers being inverted which means a left footer on the right wing to give us balance, we have 3 left footers who might fill the role Robson Kanu Sako or Brunt. While Gayle might be a better finisher than all of the 3 it isn't his natural position and given he is right footed would do much better coming in from the left but Barnes is a fixture there and it might be argued we are 3 deep with cover (Phillips, Burke and Edwards.)

Ultimately I think there is a choice to be made between Rodriguez and Gayle there really is only one Centre Forward slot in the system. The more direct our play the less use we make of Gayle and the more important a player who holds the ball better becomes. In terms of goal threat we should go with Gayle but we cannot loft crosses into the box or hopeful punts forward and expect good things to happen.

The midfield is less broken than it has been for sometime but I thought we missed Morrison on Friday and would go with a default 3 of Livermore Phillips and Morrison. With Phillips playing in the inside right/ right wing space in front of Adaboyio and being the most progressive of the midfielders there is a kind of balance in the side.

Defensively the current back four is the best we have and while not exactly watertight we are improving. While Villa created a lot of chances most happened after we went 2:1 down and we were chasing the game and frankly got a little bit shapeless.

Overall the system is working I don't think we have the personnel to change radically in any event.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on December 10, 2018, 03:05:13 AM
Having another couple of games with 4-3-3 and a few enforced changes in personnel. I think there are a few things that we can observe.

The 4-3-3 needs two wide attackers being inverted which means a left footer on the right wing to give us balance, we have 3 left footers who might fill the role Robson Kanu Sako or Brunt. While Gayle might be a better finisher than all of the 3 it isn't his natural position and given he is right footed would do much better coming in from the left but Barnes is a fixture there and it might be argued we are 3 deep with cover (Phillips, Burke and Edwards.)

Ultimately I think there is a choice to be made between Rodriguez and Gayle there really is only one Centre Forward slot in the system. The more direct our play the less use we make of Gayle and the more important a player who holds the ball better becomes. In terms of goal threat we should go with Gayle but we cannot loft crosses into the box or hopeful punts forward and expect good things to happen.

The midfield is less broken than it has been for sometime but I thought we missed Morrison on Friday and would go with a default 3 of Livermore Phillips and Morrison. With Phillips playing in the inside right/ right wing space in front of Adaboyio and being the most progressive of the midfielders there is a kind of balance in the side.

Defensively the current back four is the best we have and while not exactly watertight we are improving. While Villa created a lot of chances most happened after we went 2:1 down and we were chasing the game and frankly got a little bit shapeless.

Overall the system is working I don't think we have the personnel to change radically in any event.

Think your bang on with most of that.
Gayle through the middle for Rodriguez or if we want to play both it needs to be 4312 with Barnes in the free role behind the strikers and just let Phillips bomb town the right so young tosin can concentrate on defending
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on December 10, 2018, 07:48:17 AM
I think Sako shoukd be challenging HRK for one of the 3 upfront.  I'd still pick Gayle over Rodriguez when you think of the chances missed recently.

With midfield, is there any chance a speedier Rakeem Harper could replace Livermore allowing us to play Barry? I doubt if Livermore is going to play every game the demands are too much.  When you look at it although Livrrmore is the most mobile currently he really is only average in terms if pace.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 10, 2018, 08:45:20 AM
Having Robson-Kanu wide right suits us because we don't have to play just one way. We can play more directly because of Kanu's physicality while on the other side we have Barnes who is a different type of player. It gives us best of both worlds we can mix things up a bit.

It really is Rodriguez or Gayle for the central role it's not ideal playing either of them in the wide role. I'm not certain that Gayle would fit the system better than JRod does but it's something we can look at and I'm sure eventually we will do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on December 10, 2018, 09:23:22 AM
I think we need to address the elephant in the room, in that, 433 may work better without Gayle. So, the options are; plough on without him and use him off the bench or, switch back to 352/ 442.
Personally, I think 433 works for the greater good and suits more players, Phillips, Barnes, Livermore, Morrison and HRK all look better in this system not to mention all of the back 5.
I know it's controversial but, if this is the system of choice, we should pull out all the stops in January to get a replacement for Rodriguez, to play the main striker role in a 433.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on December 10, 2018, 10:42:56 AM
I think we need to address the elephant in the room, in that, 433 works better without Gayle. So, the options are; plough on without him and use him off the bench or, switch back to 352/ 442.
Personally, I think 433 works for the greater good and suits more players, Phillips, Barnes, Livermore, Morrison and HRK all look better in this system not to mention all of the back 5.
I know it's controversial but, if this is the system of choice, we should pull out all the stops in January to get a replacement for Rodriguez, to play the main striker role in a 433.


Gayle is yet to play centre forward in the 433 so that is simply not true. We have no idea whether it works any better.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on December 10, 2018, 11:03:57 AM
I risk contradicting myself here as i am not a fan of shoe horning players into positions!

However with the 4-3-3 if Morrison is unavailable or tired i personally would try Rodriguez in the attacking midfield role until we do / try sign a natural attacking midfielder.

I believe that Jrod has played there previously earlier in his career, when on the ball he does tend to use the ball well, quite often though he isnt involved enough. What he does add is an attacking mindset which is what Morrison offers too, that forward thinking play, on friday we had Livermore and Barry both being more cautious. I also think Jrod has the energy and work rate to track back too.

I would have Barry or Livermore in there sitting, with Phillips the more box to box (again get him on the ball as much as possible) with Jrod the attacking midfielder getting in and around and into the box with Gayle down the middle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on December 10, 2018, 11:31:36 AM

Gayle is yet to play centre forward in the 433 so that is simply not true. We have no idea whether it works any better.
Edited.
I do however think that the reason that we haven't yet seen it is because it doesn't suit him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on December 10, 2018, 03:59:27 PM
I think we need to address the elephant in the room, in that, 433 may work better without Gayle. So, the options are; plough on without him and use him off the bench or, switch back to 352/ 442.
Personally, I think 433 works for the greater good and suits more players, Phillips, Barnes, Livermore, Morrison and HRK all look better in this system not to mention all of the back 5.
I know it's controversial but, if this is the system of choice, we should pull out all the stops in January to get a replacement for Rodriguez, to play the main striker role in a 433.

In the first half against Brentford the front three of Barnes trickery and pace, J-Rods work rate and touch and HRK's physicality were an almost perfect combination for the 4-3-3.   Well perfect except for one thing!!!   When Gayle is fit he must play, as his goal threat is just so superior to JRod and HRK; could you have seen JRod tucking that chance away into the corner so coolly the other night?  It will be interesting to see who plays once HRK is fit, as he does offer something different coming in off the right....I'm not sure what it is :) but it seems effective.

I would wholeheartedly agree with getting another striker, but I do genuinely think that a RB (as we don't have one) and a forward thinking CM with legs (what happens if Jimmy gets injured) are the key priorities.





 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 15, 2018, 08:35:39 AM
The Leeds game was when we probably had the best balance in the team this season. HRK is obviously more suited to playing on the right than Gayle is, which allowed Phillips to play in more of a central driving midfield role.
This leaves a bit of an issue, last night we were back to Gayle playing more centrally, Phillips wider on the right and J-Rod dropping deeper. This will always mean we only have 2 in CM. We will get over-run at times playing like this. We were 2nd best for the first 35 minutes last night but then managed to take control.
We've managed to win a lot of games this season while being over-run for longish periods, mainly through the cutting edge and goals that Barnes, Phillips, Gayle + J-Rod give us.
My concern is we won't finish in the top two if we are struggling to control games and relying on the odd bits of magic to win us games.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 15, 2018, 08:55:23 AM
The Leeds game was when we probably had the best balance in the team this season. HRK is obviously more suited to playing on the right than Gayle is, which allowed Phillips to play in more of a central driving midfield role.
This leaves a bit of an issue, last night we were back to Gayle playing more centrally, Phillips wider on the right and J-Rod dropping deeper. This will always mean we only have 2 in CM. We will get over-run at times playing like this. We were 2nd best for the first 35 minutes last night but then managed to take control.
We've managed to win a lot of games this season while being over-run for longish periods, mainly through the cutting edge and goals that Barnes, Phillips, Gayle + J-Rod give us.
My concern is we won't finish in the top two if we are struggling to control games and relying on the odd bits of magic to win us games.


Phillips didn't play wide right and Gayle didn't play through the middle. The rotation we have throughout our team means players end up in other areas of the pitch from time to time like when Phillips went wide for the second goal. Gayle looked dangerous second half coming narrow off the right hand side.

The 4-3-3 really works for us because we have intelligent players that make the system fluid. it's the perfect system for us because we can adapt during games within that system. The players suit it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on December 15, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
Yes, if Gayle's going to start on the right on paper, he's got to be allowed to drift around inside as he did last night, that five yard burst he has is wasted otherwise.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 15, 2018, 10:18:02 AM

Phillips didn't play wide right and Gayle didn't play through the middle. The rotation we have throughout our team means players end up in other areas of the pitch from time to time like when Phillips went wide for the second goal. Gayle looked dangerous second half coming narrow off the right hand side.

The 4-3-3 really works for us because we have intelligent players that make the system fluid. it's the perfect system for us because we can adapt during games within that system. The players suit it.
We didn't see Phillips surging forward through the middle last night it was all down the right. Even if they officially started as you said there's the natural tendency to revert to type. My main point is we have a central two who will get outnumbered and overrun in several games. We have struggled to control many games this season because of that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on December 15, 2018, 10:22:00 AM
The Leeds game was when we probably had the best balance in the team this season. HRK is obviously more suited to playing on the right than Gayle is, which allowed Phillips to play in more of a central driving midfield role.
This leaves a bit of an issue, last night we were back to Gayle playing more centrally, Phillips wider on the right and J-Rod dropping deeper. This will always mean we only have 2 in CM. We will get over-run at times playing like this. We were 2nd best for the first 35 minutes last night but then managed to take control.
We've managed to win a lot of games this season while being over-run for longish periods, mainly through the cutting edge and goals that Barnes, Phillips, Gayle + J-Rod give us.
My concern is we won't finish in the top two if we are struggling to control games and relying on the odd bits of magic to win us games.
Or to put a different perspective on it, we were playing a team above us in the table at their home ground and we were the best team by a distance for two thirds of the match. Glass two thirds full for me last night. DM tweaked a few things at half time - it's what good coaches do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on December 15, 2018, 10:22:39 AM
I’d prefer to see JRod wide and Gayle central. I can only see benefit from doing that for both players.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 16, 2018, 01:29:55 AM
In terms of tactical changes between the two very different halves they we quite subtle but very effective.  While the shape was basically the same I thought we were a lot more compact as a unit in the 2nd half. This was achieved by the back four playing a little bit further up Phillips playing a little wider which reduced the space Sheffield had in the 1st half and once we denied them the overloads on our right which was the basis for their earlier dominance we got control of the game.

Again it is difficult to accomodate both Gayle and Rodriguiz in the 4-3-3. At the moment with HRK sidelined the obvious left footed player is not available however we must be getting to the point where Moore has to pick a Centre Forward and go with it. Two Centre Forwads on the pitch seldom works it certainly doesn't double the firepower.

It seems likely that Darren will probably have the full squad available for the trip to Rotherham assuming noone has picked up a knock yesterday it will be intreging to see who is picked.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on December 16, 2018, 05:04:46 AM
I’d prefer to see JRod wide and Gayle central. I can only see benefit from doing that for both players.
I could have sworn Gayle was thundering bang down the middle when shoved over from behind for the denied penalty?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hunnington Baggie on December 16, 2018, 10:42:26 AM
I could have sworn Gayle was thundering bang down the middle when shoved over from behind for the denied penalty?
he was, but he ran in from the right wing and came across the defender.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: VANDERLEI on December 16, 2018, 11:50:09 AM
I think we need to address the elephant in the room, in that, 433 may work better without Gayle. So, the options are; plough on without him and use him off the bench or, switch back to 352/ 442.
Personally, I think 433 works for the greater good and suits more players, Phillips, Barnes, Livermore, Morrison and HRK all look better in this system not to mention all of the back 5.
I know it's controversial but, if this is the system of choice, we should pull out all the stops in January to get a replacement for Rodriguez, to play the main striker role in a 433.

Gayle is head and shoulder above our other strikers. He simply must play and centrally. He guarantees   enough goals per season (and assists/penalties won). The elephant in the room is the fact that that we are shoehorning Rodriguez into the team. I like Rodriguez as a player but I've always felt that if you set the team up to provide for Gayle, he'll score at any level. Rodriguez looks low on confidence at the moment and is out of form. He needs to sit out for a few matches.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on December 16, 2018, 09:28:15 PM
For all the different tactics ,formations and players Dave has used,apart from a couple of games we still look pretty unconvincing,we lack  fluidity and cohesion and have done so since August,its training ground stuff that's letting us down
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on December 17, 2018, 05:13:00 AM
For all the different tactics ,formations and players Dave has used,apart from a couple of games we still look pretty unconvincing,we lack  fluidity and cohesion and have done so since August,its training ground stuff that's letting us down

You are right there, that 2nd half performance against Sheffield was very unconvincing. I wonder who turned that around at half time? Oh that will be Darren then .....he hasn’t a clue has he? 👍😂

Seriously though, we are not the only team to have bad days at the office. I admire Darren for trying different systems and tactics, completely different to our previous incumbent ( I am not counting that latter buffoon). I am not sure what some posters are expecting these days, 3rd in the league scoring for fun... rubbish really isn’t it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OldburyWBA on December 17, 2018, 08:46:15 AM
Cut the personal comments please, getting sick of it now, time to start handing the 7 days out maybe
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on December 17, 2018, 10:39:48 AM
I wasn't sure about putting this thought here or on the DM thread but decided this might be the better place for it
Substitutions, where does it say in the rules or coaching manuals you have to make x number of substitutions in every game?
Where does it say they should be made at a fixed point in time?
I'm starting to think that Big Dave might, just might, have developed a new and novel coaching approach to the use of substitutions, only use them when you absolutely have to and not specualtively just in case the substitution might make a difference or to appease the support base in some oblique way
To date my view is that his approach to the use of his substitutes has been right more often than it has been wrong based on our squads current weaknesess in certain areas
Just some lateral thinking to try and move the debate along so please play nice
COYB   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 17, 2018, 07:54:33 PM
For all the different tactics ,formations and players Dave has used,apart from a couple of games we still look pretty unconvincing,we lack  fluidity and cohesion and have done so since August,its training ground stuff that's letting us down
That all comes back to the midfield and the lack of a genuine AM/balance far as I'm concerned. Barnes isn't an AM when he plays centrally, Rodriguez isn't an AM and can't surge forward with the ball. Phillips gave a good display against Leeds to suggest he's the best bet (Morrison hasn't got the legs to do it for long)...back to the point that if Phillips has to play wider for large spells of the game, we suffer in the central area.
Barry and Livermore are probably the best pair as a two if we play no-one helping out just in front of them. We need Livermore's engine and legs in there if it's just a central two.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 17, 2018, 08:31:07 PM
That all comes back to the midfield and the lack of a genuine AM/balance far as I'm concerned. Barnes isn't an AM when he plays centrally, Rodriguez isn't an AM and can't surge forward with the ball. Phillips gave a good display against Leeds to suggest he's the best bet (Morrison hasn't got the legs to do it for long)...back to the point that if Phillips has to play wider for large spells of the game, we suffer in the central area.
Barry and Livermore are probably the best pair as a two if we play no-one helping out just in front of them. We need Livermore's engine and legs in there if it's just a central two.


It's never a central two now. This idea that Phillips is playing wider is totally wrong. Phillips plays on the right hand side of the three so naturally when he gets forward he does so more often than not down the right hand side of the pitch. Because our system is fluid he can end up on the right wing but equally he can run into the inside left channel like he did for Harvey Barnes goal vs Ipswich. Phillips made one particular run into the inside left channel during the first half st Sheffield United as well. No-one mentions that because nothing came from it but he made the run all the same.

Similarly Dwight Gayle came centrally from the right side of the three at Bramall Lane. That doesn't mean he didn't play right hand side of the three because he did.

Barnes scored at Ipswich from the right hand side of the penalty area, Again that isn't to say he didn't play left of the three, he did, but again the fluidity of our system means he can end up in such positions. He scored from the right against Brentford as well. Robson-Kanu did the reverse against Leeds, scored from the inside left channel despite playing right hand side of the three.

Understanding our system is important and understanding the way we play it. Some supporters were complaining first half at Sheffield (aided by comments from the Sky commentary team who really should understand the game better) that Gayle and Barnes weren't tracking back enough to protect the full backs. Totally wrong and shows a lack of understanding of how we approach games. The way we play demands that Barnes and Gayle MUST stay high up the pitch. If they don't our system falls down we would become ineffective. Yes it's a higher risk strategy than we're used to but our intent now is to oppose ourselves on opponents rather than approach games in a submissive manner intention stopping the opposition and nicking a goal like we did under Pulis in particular.

We are playing a more modern version of football which I think a lot of people brought up largely on the old British 4-4-2 don't properly understand.

Whether or not we could play this way in the Premier League and survive is another matter entirely and should we get there it's something Moore and Jones would have to have serious discussions about but at the moment we're in the Championship and we're intent on imposing ourselves on teams in this league. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on December 17, 2018, 09:41:57 PM

It's never a central two now. This idea that Phillips is playing wider is totally wrong. Phillips plays on the right hand side of the three so naturally when he gets forward he does so more often than not down the right hand side of the pitch. Because our system is fluid he can end up on the right wing but equally he can run into the inside left channel like he did for Harvey Barnes goal vs Ipswich. Phillips made one particular run into the inside left channel during the first half st Sheffield United as well. No-one mentions that because nothing came from it but he made the run all the same.

Similarly Dwight Gayle came centrally from the right side of the three at Bramall Lane. That doesn't mean he didn't play right hand side of the three because he did.

Barnes scored at Ipswich from the right hand side of the penalty area, Again that isn't to say he didn't play left of the three, he did, but again the fluidity of our system means he can end up in such positions. He scored from the right against Brentford as well. Robson-Kanu did the reverse against Leeds, scored from the inside left channel despite playing right hand side of the three.

Understanding our system is important and understanding the way we play it. Some supporters were complaining first half at Sheffield (aided by comments from the Sky commentary team who really should understand the game better) that Gayle and Barnes weren't tracking back enough to protect the full backs. Totally wrong and shows a lack of understanding of how we approach games. The way we play demands that Barnes and Gayle MUST stay high up the pitch. If they don't our system falls down we would become ineffective. Yes it's a higher risk strategy than we're used to but our intent now is to oppose ourselves on opponents rather than approach games in a submissive manner intention stopping the opposition and nicking a goal like we did under Pulis in particular.

We are playing a more modern version of football which I think a lot of people brought up largely on the old British 4-4-2 don't properly understand.

Whether or not we could play this way in the Premier League and survive is another matter entirely and should we get there it's something Moore and Jones would have to have serious discussions about but at the moment we're in the Championship and we're intent on imposing ourselves on teams in this league.

We could have a go at playing it which would be refreshing. However we would need a whole new front 3 and a decent centre midfielder.

This system would have worked with Marc fortune and odemwingie and Jerome Thomas as a front 3 with mulumbu scharner and Morrison behind.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 17, 2018, 10:07:17 PM

It's never a central two now. This idea that Phillips is playing wider is totally wrong. Phillips plays on the right hand side of the three so naturally when he gets forward he does so more often than not down the right hand side of the pitch. Because our system is fluid he can end up on the right wing but equally he can run into the inside left channel like he did for Harvey Barnes goal vs Ipswich. Phillips made one particular run into the inside left channel during the first half st Sheffield United as well. No-one mentions that because nothing came from it but he made the run all the same.

Similarly Dwight Gayle came centrally from the right side of the three at Bramall Lane. That doesn't mean he didn't play right hand side of the three because he did.

Barnes scored at Ipswich from the right hand side of the penalty area, Again that isn't to say he didn't play left of the three, he did, but again the fluidity of our system means he can end up in such positions. He scored from the right against Brentford as well. Robson-Kanu did the reverse against Leeds, scored from the inside left channel despite playing right hand side of the three.

Understanding our system is important and understanding the way we play it. Some supporters were complaining first half at Sheffield (aided by comments from the Sky commentary team who really should understand the game better) that Gayle and Barnes weren't tracking back enough to protect the full backs. Totally wrong and shows a lack of understanding of how we approach games. The way we play demands that Barnes and Gayle MUST stay high up the pitch. If they don't our system falls down we would become ineffective. Yes it's a higher risk strategy than we're used to but our intent now is to oppose ourselves on opponents rather than approach games in a submissive manner intention stopping the opposition and nicking a goal like we did under Pulis in particular.

We are playing a more modern version of football which I think a lot of people brought up largely on the old British 4-4-2 don't properly understand.

Whether or not we could play this way in the Premier League and survive is another matter entirely and should we get there it's something Moore and Jones would have to have serious discussions about but at the moment we're in the Championship and we're intent on imposing ourselves on teams in this league.
I know there are different types of football to 4-4-2 in modern football and I know there's rotation. I'm enjoying the entertainment value of the way we are playing but in the majority of games this year we have struggled to have control of the game for quite long periods. I happen to think that the absence of a genuine AM means our midfield is ripe for being outnumbered / overrun which may well catch up with us in terms of making the top two.
It's about opinions...mine is we do play with a central two. There may be assistance from the players rotating but none of them is suited to dropping in as a third midfielder if we are under the cosh - which will happen. In a few games we've got out of jail to an extent usually through some flashes of brilliance from Barnes. We've got the firepower to make the top two (if Barnes stays and he and Phillips stay fit) but I fear we may, as the season goes on, drop too many points in games where this getting out of jail doesn't succeed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 18, 2018, 06:54:21 AM
All modern systems have a central midfield 2 how they are deployed and supported by other players varies but there is always a 2 man central midfield pairing on the pitch. 4-3-3 is a misnomer because rarely does a team play with a flat 3 in midfield either a player plays ahead or behind the central 2. In our case Phillips plays ahead of Livermore and Barry/Morrison he does this in the inside right/wide right channels. It should also be noted that Gibbs gets forward a lot more than Adarabioyo who in possession forms part of a back 3. If both full backs got forward as much as Gibbs Phillips would be playing more centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: chipperclark on December 20, 2018, 01:47:06 AM
 ;D Football is a simple game.....score more goals than the opposition.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on December 20, 2018, 05:16:55 AM
;D Football is a simple game.....score more goals than the opposition.
Spot on Chipper, some of the technical posts on here are too much for me. The term "blinded by Science" springs to mind.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on December 20, 2018, 04:23:21 PM
Without getting too technical, I think we are setting up quite assymetrically, Toisin seems to stay back far more than Gibbs, Barnes stays up front more than Phillips - so its hard to say exactly whether we have 2 in the middle or 3, 3 attackers or 2 and so on.  It's the Belgian way, I think.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 20, 2018, 05:40:52 PM
Without getting too technical, I think we are setting up quite assymetrically, Toisin seems to stay back far more than Gibbs, Barnes stays up front more than Phillips - so its hard to say exactly whether we have 2 in the middle or 3, 3 attackers or 2 and so on.  It's the Belgian way, I think.


Phillips doesn't play up front he plays the right side of a midfield three.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on December 20, 2018, 11:08:09 PM

Phillips doesn't play up front he plays the right side of a midfield three.
But he's more likely to be found going forward out wide right than the other two midfielders, whoever they are.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: geoff on December 21, 2018, 11:26:59 AM
Surely with the type of forwards we have & playing a 433 the 3 forwards should be changing as & when they like & by being flexible the defenders are made to work harder.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 21, 2018, 08:22:20 PM
But he's more likely to be found going forward out wide right than the other two midfielders, whoever they are.
Yes agreed Phillips is generally more advanced than the other two, whether he's central or on the right. It's more like 2 CMs and Phillips who is either AM centrally or RW and the time he spends in each position seems to vary with each game. Apart from the GK, back 4 and CMs there's plenty of rotation going on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 29, 2018, 08:31:05 PM
Hot takes from today.

There are certain players who absolutely key to the working of the 4-3-3. Take those out of the team and it really doesn't work.

Firstly during the 1st half Sako and Barnes were playing as traditional wide roles rather than inverted wide forwards. This left Rodriguez isolated.

Secondly without Phillips the midfield lost a lot of it's dynamism. It is quite simple Phillips and Morrison aren't interchangeable. It was telling that Morrison had fewer touches of the ball in an hour than Phillips did in half an hour (when we had 10 players on the pitch)

Thirdly Brunt  is not a central mid drifts wide left, when he is on the pitch we are neither a double pivot nor a deep sitting playmaker.

Without Phillips I would be inclined to drop to a 4-2-3-1


                                Johnstone

               Adarabioyo   Hegazi   Dawson   Gibbs

                    Lvermore/Morrison Field/Barry

            HRK/ Brunt         Morrison/Barnes   Barnes/Burke/Edwards 


                                      Rodriguez/Gayle/HRK


Finally can we talk no more of Sako that is not an answer to any problem we might have.       


   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 29, 2018, 08:37:00 PM
Hot takes from today.

There are certain players who absolutely key to the working of the 4-3-3. Take those out of the team and it really doesn't work.

Firstly during the 1st half Sako and Barnes were playing as traditional wide roles rather than inverted wide forwards. This left Rodriguez isolated.

Secondly without Phillips the midfield lost a lot of it's dynamism. It is quite simple Phillips and Morrison aren't interchangeable. It was telling that Morrison had fewer touches of the ball in an hour than Phillips did in half an hour (when we had 10 players on the pitch)

Thirdly Brunt  is not a central mid drifts wide left, when he is on the pitch we are neither a double pivot nor a deep sitting playmaker.

Without Phillips I would be inclined to drop to a 4-2-3-1


                                Johnstone

               Adarabioyo   Hegazi   Dawson   Gibbs

                    Lvermore/Morrison Field/Barry

            HRK/ Brunt         Morrison/Barnes   Barnes/Burke/Edwards 


                                      Rodriguez/Gayle/HRK


Finally can we talk no more of Sako that is not an answer to any problem we might have.       


   


We don't want to be messing about changing systems but you are right in everything else you say. Sako really disappointed me today I saw nothing from him at all that suggested tome he is going to be any form of asset.

Phillips is key to us currently but partly because we don't have a right back that gives us balance and an attacking purpose similar to Gibbs on the left hand side.

It's either Morrison or Barry in midfield alongside Livermore and Phillips and Barry is winning that particular battle hands down. Mozza needs to be back up.

Brunt should not be played in CM at all.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on December 29, 2018, 08:44:56 PM
Interesting that it was Livermore playing the 'Barry' role, dropping in between the centre halves. Brunt and Morrison were the two further forward but neither were effective
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 29, 2018, 08:48:34 PM
Interesting that it was Livermore playing the 'Barry' role, dropping in between the centre halves. Brunt and Morrison were the two further forward but neither were effective


Yep. Livermore doesn't have the intelligence or quality on the ball that Barry has. Livermore is best when he's used to get about the pitch. The midfield three of Barry / Livermore and Phillips is our best combination by a country mile.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 29, 2018, 08:56:08 PM
So we have now played 9 games in this formation with a record that reads W6 D3 L0. We are clearly better suited playing this way but I do have my concerns. Personnel wise, I think we are all aware that we need a right back, central midfielder and another forward player. However I also have concerns about this system as whilst we have been imperious away P4 W4, we haven't been as successful at home P5 W2 D3.

The games that we have won at home have been Leeds and Wigan. We weren't that fluid against Wigan who are poor away from home and against Leeds, the performance was more of that you'd expect from an away side, utilising the counter. This suggests to me that we struggle against teams that sit in and we need to find either another way of playing or change the personnel.

Hopefully improving the personnel will enable us to keep this system whilst being more effective at home but if not, what are the options? Do we revert to the 3412? Try another formation? We will have to wait until the end of January to properly assess. Fortunately, we only have 1 home league game in January and that's against Norwich where utilising the counter attacking style should be suited.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 29, 2018, 09:00:15 PM
So we have now played 9 games in this formation with a record that reads W6 D3 L0. We are clearly better suited playing this way but I do have my concerns. Personnel wise, I think we are all aware that we need a right back, central midfielder and another forward player. However I also have concerns about this system as whilst we have been imperious away P4 W4, we haven't been as successful at home P5 W2 D3.

The games that we have won at home have been Leeds and Wigan. We weren't that fluid against Wigan who are poor away from home and against Leeds, the performance was more of that you'd expect from an away side, utilising the counter. This suggests to me that we struggle against teams that sit in and we need to find either another way of playing or change the personnel.

Hopefully improving the personnel will enable us to keep this system whilst being more effective at home but if not, what are the options? Do we revert to the 3412? Try another formation? We will have to wait until the end of January to properly assess. Fortunately, we only have 1 home league game in January and that's against Norwich where utilising the counter attacking style should be suited.



To be fair at home we played Villa with two days less rest than Villa, Sheff Wed with only two days rest AND a weakened side and Brentford we would've beaten had we not conceded a goal in injury time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on December 29, 2018, 09:22:24 PM
Our management and coaches have become "cloistered".
They have got tunnel vision and can only see a few players and the way they play.
This is why "new managers' bounce" occurs.
They can see the faults and things dragging their new team down.
As supporters and also the audience we can see things which need to be changed and altered.
We comment about what faults we can see, but until management read these things, there will be no change (as shown by team selection etc.) Management must take these honest comments to heart and then the hardest part is to LISTEN!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on December 29, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
I think people are looking into it too deep talking about formations.

I’m interested in starting 11s and picking the best players for the job. 

Today at best was disjointed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 29, 2018, 09:38:10 PM


To be fair at home we played Villa with two days less rest than Villa, Sheff Wed with only two days rest AND a weakened side and Brentford we would've beaten had we not conceded a goal in injury time.

Perhaps, I hope that is the case!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: costa blanca baggie on December 30, 2018, 01:49:20 AM
I think people are looking into it too deep talking about formations.

I’m interested in starting 11s and picking the best players for the job. 

Today at best was disjointed.
I’m with you on this. Listening to so called professional match day pundits is bad enough, but now everyone is an expert...and they all have a different opinion. I much prefer watching a game unfold, then just accept the result. Let the paid decision makers worry about it. However, this is a forum based on opinions, and without opinions, there is no forum. Being a Baggie abroad, it’s my post match replacement of 'The Pink'. Find a bar, grab a pint, and read away. And long may it continue. Cheers!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: bangkokbaggie on December 30, 2018, 06:42:24 AM
Just posing a question. The general concensus of opinion amongst you is that Brunt in the centre of midfield doesn't work so why does DM keep persevering with this?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on December 30, 2018, 08:13:59 AM
Just posing a question. The general concensus of opinion amongst you is that Brunt in the centre of midfield doesn't work so why does DM keep persevering with this?

He doesn’t - Brunt was on the bench for most of the last half dozen games.  He only played yesterday because Barry cannot start 3 games in 7 days
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: costa blanca baggie on December 30, 2018, 08:18:43 AM
Just posing a question. The general concensus of opinion amongst you is that Brunt in the centre of midfield doesn't work so why does DM keep persevering with this?
Give a dog a bone. ☺️
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 30, 2018, 10:22:29 AM
The reason why I suggested changing shape slightly is if we don't have Phillips the 3 in midfield doesn't work if you don't have 2 from Gayle/Rodriguez/HRK then we don't have a front 3. It is question of changing system to fit the personnel we do have available
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 30, 2018, 10:52:25 AM
The reason why I suggested changing shape slightly is if we don't have Phillips the 3 in midfield doesn't work if you don't have 2 from Gayle/Rodriguez/HRK then we don't have a front 3. It is question of changing system to fit the personnel we do have available


I think a three can work without Phillips although it will lose it's attacking edge. I could see a midfield three of Morrison, Livermore and Barry functioning Ok. Setting up with Brunt and Morrison together yesterday was the problem, there was only Livermore with any sort of physicality. Brunty slows the game down all the time and should not be playing in the middle of the park. I understand the players have had a tough schedule of late but that midfield selection yesterday was poor.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on December 30, 2018, 12:33:49 PM
Re yesterdays game,surely Barry was better starting at home v Sheffield than away at Blackburn,also Barrys game has got better with more game time,and he appears to have more legs than either Brunty or Morrison,Barry,Phillips and Kanu should have started,and in my opinion we would have won easily
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 01, 2019, 09:00:16 PM
Il go back to this thread...

The 433 has been pretty successful for us since we started using it this season.
There are 3 midfield roles, the runner the string puller and the charger. The string pulled is Barry (Morrison can do it. Barry better and more consistent) the runner is usually Livermore he puts in hard yards tackling, harrying and harassing- however this role could be performed by the likes of Harper or field for me. Phillips is the charger he makes powerful driving runs and carries us forward- nobody else can do this.

When Phillips isn't fit or is fatigued or injured we have nobody to offer this in midfield.

We create chances but need to score them when Gayle is out we lack this. Rodriguez isn't the same natural finisher.

The 2 problems above is where I would be looking to strengthen in the window
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 11, 2019, 07:47:54 PM
In the short term i.e. tomorrow and in all probability against Bolton we have to tweak the line up to compensate for Barnes return

Assuming we want to continue with the 4-3-3 I would go with

                                           Johnstone

                               Holgate   Dawson  Hegazi  Gibbs

                                                   Barry

                                          Harper       Morrison


                                  Robson-Kanu     Gayle      Phillips


Ultimately if we are looking for a wide forward to cut in from the left it could be argued that Phillips has been the most natural choice in that role.

                                 
     

     


                                                               
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on January 11, 2019, 09:36:08 PM
As regards personnel, some posters on here believe we have the best squad in the division . Well not now we don't.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tommcneill on January 11, 2019, 09:53:26 PM
As regards personnel, some posters on here believe we have the best squad in the division . Well not now we don't.

Yeah we do still in my honest

Our squad is more than good enough for top 2
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on January 11, 2019, 10:15:27 PM
i think the dynamics have changed now losing Barnes.  I was vocal in stating we should be Top after 26 games.  I am now relaxed because i don't have that level of expectation anymore.

I hope i am wrong and we confound all doubts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 11, 2019, 10:40:34 PM
Yeah we do still in my honest

Our squad is more than good enough for top 2

I think we have a better squad than Sheffield Utd, Derby, Forest and possibly Norwich who would all suffer if they had a number of injuries.

I'm confident we will be top 6 and believe we can (and probably should) still challenge for top 2, but unless a replacement for Barnes is signed in the window the dent in our firepower is going to make an automatic spot much more of a battle than it would have been.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on January 12, 2019, 10:56:49 AM
People seem to have forgotten about our latest defensive signing,Mr. Holgate.
I've said previously that he could be a significant signing.
I think that Dave will play a 433 today.
Holgate Dawson Hegazi Gibbs, I believe that we will begin to have more clean sheets in the knowledge that jrod and Gayle will always score I would play leko with them up front.
Barry  Harper mozza as central 3
I think that team would beat most teams in this league including Norwich.
What do you think?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on January 12, 2019, 11:19:28 AM
People seem to have forgotten about our latest defensive signing,Mr. Holgate.
I've said previously that he could be a significant signing.
I think that Dave will play a 433 today.
Holgate Dawson Hegazi Gibbs, I believe that we will begin to have more clean sheets in the knowledge that jrod and Gayle will always score I would play leko with them up front.
Barry  Harper mozza as central 3
I think that team would beat most teams in this league including Norwich.
What do you think?
Think we will see Brunt instead of Harper (wrongly IMO) and Phillips instead of Leko (correctly)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheBrom on January 12, 2019, 11:21:16 AM
People seem to have forgotten about our latest defensive signing,Mr. Holgate.
I've said previously that he could be a significant signing.
I think that Dave will play a 433 today.
Holgate Dawson Hegazi Gibbs, I believe that we will begin to have more clean sheets in the knowledge that jrod and Gayle will always score I would play leko with them up front.
Barry  Harper mozza as central 3
I think that team would beat most teams in this league including Norwich.
What do you think?

Agree about Holgate. In the cup he looked very assured at the back and got forward well, which will aid our attacks down the right hand side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on January 12, 2019, 05:12:58 PM
Can someone kindly inform Darren Moore than Dwight Gayle is not a left back. Phillips / Sako / Leko / J-Rod on the left with Gayle where he belongs between the posts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mini gaardsoe on January 12, 2019, 05:36:50 PM
Can someone kindly inform Darren Moore than Dwight Gayle is not a left back. Phillips / Sako / Leko / J-Rod on the left with Gayle where he belongs between the posts.

The fact the only person in the world who doesn’t know this is Moore is alarming to say the least. A legend on the pitch but in the dugout, out of his depth.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 12, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
The fact the only person in the world who doesn’t know this is Moore is alarming to say the least. A legend on the pitch but in the dugout, out of his depth.

The evidence from this season would suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on January 12, 2019, 06:24:56 PM
Gayle did not play left back.

Seriously, come on people.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on January 12, 2019, 06:28:19 PM
Anybody know anything about where mp was today?

Injured or on his way out?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 12, 2019, 07:23:44 PM
Injured.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on January 12, 2019, 08:14:38 PM
Can someone kindly inform Darren Moore than Dwight Gayle is not a left back. Phillips / Sako / Leko / J-Rod on the left with Gayle where he belongs between the posts.

Presume the first comment isn't a serious one so won't respond.  Scored one and missed one  playing from the left.    Wouldn't argue that he would also score playing down the middle but our set up the middle forward often drops deep and the two wide men are further up top.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on January 12, 2019, 08:42:33 PM
Injured.

Read elsewhere that apparently he has been sold to Burnley.

Probably bull but you never know.

Would prefer they came in for Jrod.

I heard that we have a choice of 3 wingers to replace hb,  no names but be probably like someone like that nakudu at spurs.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on January 13, 2019, 02:31:10 AM
The 433 works, we just need a couple of signings to bolster the xi.

Johnstone
Holgate Dawson hegazi Gibbs - solid back line
Phillips Barry Livermore - Harper/Morrison and brunt back up looks good
Gayle jrod ? - Watkins would be perfect.

So ideally Watkins in and maybe another centre mid which could free up Phillips further forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 24, 2019, 08:46:16 AM
Reflecting on last night, the most frustrating aspect for me was the cheap goal we gave away and the fact Utd bossed the first 30 mins without laying a glove on them.

Losing Barnes means we have lost our most potent attacking weapon in terms of taking and and beating players and conjuring something from nothing.  This means our attacking threat has diminished to a certain extent and cost us last night.

In my view we have to improve defending off the ball.  We don’t seem to close down quick enough.  Alarmingly both Holgate and Gibbs almost never stop incoming crosses.

The concerning thing is all our other midfielders are slow; Brunt, Morrison, Hoolahan, Field, Johansen.

Conceding 6 goals from the last 3 home games has drained confidence. 

IMO we have to have 2 attacking wingers at home which means 2 from 3 of Phillips, Murphy, Montero.  Then it must be J Rod or Gayle not both, it just does not work with both.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: 17GD on February 24, 2019, 08:55:56 AM
Reflecting on last night, the most frustrating aspect for me was the cheap goal we gave away and the fact Utd bossed the first 30 mins without laying a glove on them.

Losing Barnes means we have lost our most potent attacking weapon in terms of taking and and beating players and conjuring something from nothing.  This means our attacking threat has diminished to a certain extent and cost us last night.

In my view we have to improve defending off the ball.  We don’t seem to close down quick enough.  Alarmingly both Holgate and Gibbs almost never stop incoming crosses.

The concerning thing is all our other midfielders are slow; Brunt, Morrison, Hoolahan, Field, Johansen.

Conceding 6 goals from the last 3 home games has drained confidence. 

IMO we have to have 2 attacking wingers at home which means 2 from 3 of Phillips, Murphy, Montero.  Then it must be J Rod or Gayle not both, it just does not work with both.

I agree with virtually everything you said.

For me it was crystal clear that Gayle should have started on the bench. Why change a winning team unless of injury? Gayle was invisible last night, Sheff utd had got him worked out.

With regards defending, it wasn't just down to Gibbs and Holgate. Harper couldn't have caught a cold and JL was running around like a headless chicken. For their goal we just let them walk through us, they will never score an easier goal.

It was clear from much earlier in the season, but I noticed it most against Reading, that we simply don't have ideas with regards breaking down the opposition. We can't get the ball forward quick enough and Jones and Moore seriously need a kick up the rs. Their "system" isn't working.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 24, 2019, 09:37:13 AM
I agree with virtually everything you said.

For me it was crystal clear that Gayle should have started on the bench. Why change a winning team unless of injury? Gayle was invisible last night, Sheff utd had got him worked out.

With regards defending, it wasn't just down to Gibbs and Holgate. Harper couldn't have caught a cold and JL was running around like a headless chicken. For their goal we just let them walk through us, they will never score an easier goal.

It was clear from much earlier in the season, but I noticed it most against Reading, that we simply don't have ideas with regards breaking down the opposition. We can't get the ball forward quick enough and Jones and Moore seriously need a kick up the rs. Their "system" isn't working.

It was the worst performance from Barry in a WBA shirt.  I don’t know if Morrison will become fit again but IMO he should be worthy of consideration.  As a midfield wildcard I noticed how comfortable Tosin is as a ball carrier.

J Rod is not as clinical as Gayle but does offer more in terms of hold up play.  In home games I like the thought of 2 natural wingers firing crosses into the 6 yard area for Gayle to eat for breakfast.  We must become more ruthless in home matches.

Thankfully it’s Ipswich at home next.  If we pass up that opportunity then we have a colossal problem playing at the Hawthorns.

Just want to add that 2 games played before Sheffield Utd and 6pts gained with 1 striker.  We played 2 up top v Forest and only drew.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 24, 2019, 09:47:02 AM
Two wins in eleven at home is it? Next home game is Ipswich I would change system for this game. Teams are doing a job on us at home, whatever personnel we put out on to the pitch so it's time to change things up a little bit:


                                    Johnstone

Holgate            Dawson                      Hegazi                Gibbs

                                    Barry

                  Phillips                                      Harper

                                    Rodriguez

                  Robson - Kanu                  Gayle



I'd be going with a diamond with Rodriguez at the tip of it and Robson-Kanu (who should be fit by then) forming the hold up part of a more conventional two up front and moving Gayle into the centre alongside him.

Width provided primarily by the two full backs who are used to getting forward anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on February 24, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
I agree with virtually everything you said.

For me it was crystal clear that Gayle should have started on the bench. Why change a winning team unless of injury? Gayle was invisible last night, Sheff utd had got him worked out.

With regards defending, it wasn't just down to Gibbs and Holgate. Harper couldn't have caught a cold and JL was running around like a headless chicken. For their goal we just let them walk through us, they will never score an easier goal.

It was clear from much earlier in the season, but I noticed it most against Reading, that we simply don't have ideas with regards breaking down the opposition. We can't get the ball forward quick enough and Jones and Moore seriously need a kick up the rs. Their "system" isn't working.
Thing is we only won at QPR as Murphy played a blinder,and was unavailable today,Gayle has to start if available but totally agree tactically at home we are useless
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 24, 2019, 05:29:21 PM
Our record was better. Yes, we conceded more but almost always looked like we could outscore the opposition.
Question is can we play 352 at home and 433 away? If not, why not?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 24, 2019, 05:31:33 PM
Our record was better. Yes, we conceded more but almost always looked like we could outscore the opposition.
Question is can we play 352 at home and 433 away? If not, why not?


Said this exact thing yesterday on here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on February 24, 2019, 08:34:03 PM
We also had Barnes and fully fit Phillips firing the whole time we played the 3-5-2. Hopefully Murphy will continue to improve but our fire power is now down at least one notch whatever system we play.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 24, 2019, 11:49:59 PM
We also had Barnes and fully fit Phillips firing the whole time we played the 3-5-2. Hopefully Murphy will continue to improve but our fire power is now down at least one notch whatever system we play.


Not really, because Phillips was being wasted at right wing back. He would just take the Barnes role in the 3 5 2.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 25, 2019, 06:50:26 AM
If you feel the need to get both Gayle and Rodriguez on the pitch at the same time a 3-4-1-2 is how I would do it.

                                        Johnstone

                       Dawson    Hegazi  Adarabioyo   

         Holgate             Harper  Barry      Gibbs       

                                        Phillips

                             Rodriguez     Gayle


                                                   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on February 25, 2019, 06:54:46 AM
whatever system we play,we have to stop trying to pass it out from the back every time, we've been rumbled
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 25, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
whatever system we play,we have to stop trying to pass it out from the back every time, we've been rumbled

Without HRK, I don't think we've got a choice, there's nobody else who can hold the ball up. Against tall CH's the ball would come straight back.

Think I would go with Standaman's 3:4:1:2 formation. That gives us options to go wide or through the middle, much like we did when HB was here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 25, 2019, 08:53:21 AM
Without HRK, I don't think we've got a choice, there's nobody else who can hold the ball up. Against tall CH's the ball would come straight back.

Think I would go with Standaman's 3:4:1:2 formation. That gives us options to go wide or through the middle, much like we did when HB was here.
Would you play it home and away or stick with 433 for away games?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 25, 2019, 09:19:33 AM
If you feel the need to get both Gayle and Rodriguez on the pitch at the same time a 3-4-1-2 is how I would do it.

                                        Johnstone

                       Dawson    Hegazi  Adarabioyo   

         Holgate             Harper  Barry      Gibbs       

                                        Phillips

                             Rodriguez     Gayle


                                                   


We played that way earlier in the season and abandoned it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 25, 2019, 10:29:44 AM

We played that way earlier in the season and abandoned it.
If we use the Leeds home game as the dividing point, between 352 and 433, our home form has dipped considerably

Pre Leeds: 16 points from 8 games
W 5
D 1
L 2
Post Leeds: 11 points from 9 games
W2
D 5
L 2

Suggests that 352 works better at home, whilst 433 works better away, so, i'll ask again, can we play completely different systems home and away and, if not, why not?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on February 25, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
I'd try a system that keeps the back four in place because we haven't got center halves who are comfortable playing in a three. Think we need four in midfield just to get some sort of control on the ball, I'd play Rodriguez in a nunber 10 role with Gayle up top.
                                   Johnstone

      Holgate.    Dawson.    Hagazi.     Gibbs

   Phillips.       Barry.         Harper.     Murphy

                               Rodriguez

                                Gayle
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on February 25, 2019, 10:57:33 AM
I prefer the 352 system but since we went to four at the back we have kept clean sheets,its a difficult one but can be managed during the game,it can be adjusted to suit depending on how the match is going can't it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on February 25, 2019, 11:09:28 AM
For me it's less about the system we employ and more about the tactics.

 The amount of times defenders are put under unnecessary pressure  by being passed to when closed down or the ball into midfield is played out so slowly that the player receiving it is already being closed down is unreal.
Teams have worked out that all you have to do is close down the defence and midfield quickly and we will panic. This is true of any team mind, yet our front players hardly ever seem to pressure opposition defenders. If you hurry a player into making a decision it will usually be a poor decision as they don't have the luxury of time.

I'd like to see the defenders just clear immediate danger, rather than looking to pass to either another defender or the keeper.
Playing out from the back can be useful but so can a decent long throw or goal kick, we need a mix of things to keep opposition players guessing rather than being one dimensional.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 25, 2019, 12:43:02 PM
I'd try a system that keeps the back four in place because we haven't got center halves who are comfortable playing in a three. Think we need four in midfield just to get some sort of control on the ball, I'd play Rodriguez in a nunber 10 role with Gayle up top.
                                   Johnstone

      Holgate.    Dawson.    Hagazi.     Gibbs

   Phillips.       Barry.         Harper.     Murphy

                               Rodriguez

                                Gayle
Holgate is a CH by trade so why not:

                              Johnstone

           Holgate        Dawson        Hegazi

Murphy    Harper     Phillips      Barry        Gibbs

                Gayle                      Rodriguez


Plenty of cover available with Tosin, Bartley, Johanson, Montero, Field, Brunt, Mears and HRK

Might concede more but would almost certainly score more.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on February 25, 2019, 01:12:24 PM
Holgate is a CH by trade so why not:

                              Johnstone

           Holgate        Dawson        Hegazi

Murphy    Harper     Phillips      Barry        Gibbs

                Gayle                      Rodriguez


Plenty of cover available with Tosin, Bartley, Johanson, Montero, Field, Brunt, Mears and HRK

Might concede more but would almost certainly score more.
read first part of my quote Holgate might be comfortable in a three but Dawson and Hegazi aren't as evident from all goals we concede in a three
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 25, 2019, 01:48:48 PM
read first part of my quote Holgate might be comfortable in a three but Dawson and Hegazi aren't as evident from all goals we concede in a three
Read last part of mine mate.

"Might concede more but would almost certainly score more"

We did concede more playing 352 but we also scored more and, most importantly, took more points.

Not saying it's the perfect fix but we have to change something at home.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Backofthenet on February 25, 2019, 02:22:52 PM
I with you Settefeet.
Three at the back would be a disaster with our players, we've already seen that and we should be keeping clean sheets anyway and with the strikers we have we should also be getting goals.
Yes there will be times when that does not go to plan but most of the plans we have seem to be found out in the end.
It is a simple game really I find it hard to understand why so many try to make it complicated - Get the ball, pass it to someone wearing the same kit as you, keep that going until you are in a position to shoot at goal. If you do and score, all well and good. If not try to get the ball back and start again. Everyone works for each other and not necessarily a  'tablets of stone' position. Start taking some responsibility.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 25, 2019, 05:26:16 PM
Would you play it home and away or stick with 433 for away games?

I wouldn't stick with any formation, home or away. We should have a series of formations, & be as fluid & unpredictable  as possible.

The 3 at the back we played earlier in the season led to us conceding goals, but it would be wrong to say it wasn't working, because we had some positive results.

Personally, I don't buy the argument that we can only win matches by wide play, I think we have the players to take people on through the middle.

There is a lot of criticism from fans about the length of time it takes us to play the ball out from the back. From my own observations, some of that is down to the length of time it takes our forwards to get back into a onside position.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: section5 on March 01, 2019, 09:41:20 PM
It seems like we've been found out and our promotion chances arr looking slimmer the quicker May beckons. It's a hard one because since Barnes has left we really haven't clicked. Number  1 I'd play Gayle up top, not on the wing, regardless of formation. We we're completely outdone by Leeds doing there homework' which isn't much against us at the moment. Gaps all over the place that Leeds exploited, not sure if that was down to the system or sluggish players but it was really bad. Harper needs to get matchfit and consistent. Not sure why Field's not given a run out more often. Again in this system we started with three central strikers up top. Montero and Murphy had to start for that natural width. Any centre forward will naturally drift in and with us getting exploited everytime, be it on the overlap, counter attack or jusy simple positioning. No cohesion between any of the players today. Livermore and Barry are not mobile enough and Livermore seems to rely a lot on confidence and never really has a game above 7/10. Why we didnt start Townsend-a natural position fit (echoes of Pulis?). Really disappointed with the general cohesion and play since Barnes left. Mozza isn't the answer. Where do we go from here? Is a system switch up a must now? Have we got the players? Is DM going to get us promoted? Will we have a different manager for the promotion push?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on March 01, 2019, 09:52:48 PM
Players who care: Field and Brunt must start. Balance: Gayle up front, Murphy and Phillips flanking him. Sacred cows: Let's give Bond a run of games. No more Livermore. No more Rodriguez.


Time to be brave.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 01, 2019, 10:05:35 PM
Players who care: Field and Brunt must start. Balance: Gayle up front, Murphy and Phillips flanking him. Sacred cows: Let's give Bond a run of games. No more Livermore. No more Rodriguez.


Time to be brave.
I agree with what you say, but Johnstone could not be held resposible for those goals... The defence was a shamble cobbled together with players being played out of position. Only Darren should be held responsible for team selection and his plan (I don't think that he has a plan in truth).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robbo_wba on March 01, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
Since villa away second half (which was poor) we’ve played the same terrible formation. Tonight and v Sheff Utd it was...

                  Livermore     Barry   
                                                 Harper

                           Rodriguez
                  HRK.                Gayle

 And that is literally the width of it. Jrod is basically playing attacking midfield NOT as a striker. Even when Montero came on v Sheff Utd he played more central than anyone else!! No width whatsoever. He’s trying to play Jrod as a “false 9” and the “wide” players too central. Ridiculous
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 01, 2019, 10:19:09 PM
If you search back to team selection, I did say that HRK shouldn't be on the pitch from the start.
He is too lightweight and can't hold a ball up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on March 01, 2019, 10:21:10 PM
If you search back to team selection, I did say that HRK shouldn't be on the pitch from the start.
He is too lightweight and can't hold a ball up.


Compared to the other two he's a super heavyweight with a ball magnet in his feet.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Aztech on March 01, 2019, 10:23:06 PM

Compared to the other two he's a super heavyweight with a ball magnet in his feet.

I’d suggest Robson-Kanu has a floor magnet in his backside
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gavinrussell on March 01, 2019, 10:24:54 PM
Livermore looks more like a boxer than a footballer..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 01, 2019, 10:26:25 PM
One puff, and he is over.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OldburyWBA on March 01, 2019, 10:27:43 PM
Haven't replaced Barnes, since he's gone we've created hardly anything, the new signings are not the same quality from showings so far.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on March 01, 2019, 10:28:01 PM
I’d suggest Robson-Kanu has a floor magnet in his backside
Nice one Aztech :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 01, 2019, 10:30:46 PM
I’d suggest Robson-Kanu has a floor magnet in his backside
Yup.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on March 01, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
I’d suggest Robson-Kanu has a floor magnet in his backside


Class  :D


Still better at the qualities of not being a lightweight and holding up the ball than our other strikers.


And there are people who don't think Rondon would transform this team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on March 01, 2019, 10:46:16 PM
I’d suggest Robson-Kanu has a floor magnet in his backside
it's big enough
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 01, 2019, 10:48:18 PM
Do you mean he likes to twerk?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on March 01, 2019, 10:51:57 PM
Livermore looks more like a boxer than a footballer..
Like a boxer running in custard.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on March 02, 2019, 12:12:53 AM
Like a boxer running in custard.
bloke can't run
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on March 02, 2019, 06:15:41 AM
We haven't replaced Barnes and haven't managed to get Phillips fit and back into team.
Murphy began to look promising then got injured.
Rodriguez has been poor for some time. Gayle also poor but playing as a winger.
Harper has been played too much has lost his confidence.

We have stopped scoring goals due to creating less chances. We either need to go 2 up top and play 2 wingers and 2 in cm which may well be a disaster. Or 2 up top somebody in free role and rely on the full backs bombing on. Or thirdly drop one of Rodriguez or Gayle and play 2 of; Murphy Phillips montero as out and out wing forwards
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on March 02, 2019, 08:28:02 AM
Moore & Jones needed to find a way to replace Barnes impact, while not actually having a Barnes like player to replace him with. This required imagination, a willing to change things around and the bravery to drop some big names.

All 3 requirements have not been enacted.

We don’t have a player who does what Barnes does, or has the same level of quality, and we have been hampered further by losing Phillips (a huge double blow to our season).

We do however have Murphy who can play a direct role from the wing, we have Johansson who at Fulham was able to chip in with goals and assists while playing in a midfield 3 last year, we have Montero as an impact sub and could use the likes of Brunt and Morrison as change players.

We should have looked to potentially drop one of Rodriguez and Gayle, and tried to rework our attacking play, but Moore is infatuated by Livermore, meaning we shoe horn in 3 players who add little to our attacking play in midfield.

Unless Moore finds a way to connect our midfield and attack into an effective unit inthe remaining games, we stand no chance of winning the playoffs, and will actually be in danger of dropping out completely.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gavinrussell on March 02, 2019, 08:37:32 AM

Class  :D


Still better at the qualities of not being a lightweight and holding up the ball than our other strikers.


And there are people who don't think Rondon would transform this team.
I can't image Sal would want to come back even if we were promoted..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on March 02, 2019, 08:47:10 AM
Haven't replaced Barnes, since he's gone we've created hardly anything, the new signings are not the same quality from showings so far.

I agree, but sadly Barnes is almost irreplaceable at this level.

As for system, tactics etc I still think 433 is the way to go, but how the are being asked and instructed to do it clearly needs to change.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on March 02, 2019, 09:05:25 AM
Haven't replaced Barnes, since he's gone we've created hardly anything, the new signings are not the same quality from showings so far.
Murphy has done ok , enough to start for me last night . Again they baffle me , no wide option and no out ball.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on March 02, 2019, 09:07:12 AM
I agree, but sadly Barnes is almost irreplaceable at this level.

As for system, tactics etc I still think 433 is the way to go, but how the are being asked and instructed to do it clearly needs to change.


I sort of agree although you do have to have the players. Without Barnes we've lost a bit and without Phillips driving forward from midfield we've lost a bit more. The ball carriers, the quality, the penetration all gone.

We can chop and change systems but that's not always the answer sometimes it's about mentality and how you approach games. Our approach seems to be pass the ball at the back, try and beat the press, try and keep the ball. I think it's because this is foremost in our minds we don't play with enough intensity or tempo. When you are missing quality the you have to up your intensity to compensate somewhat for that. We're not doing that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: caravanc58 on March 02, 2019, 09:26:41 AM
what tactics do we have? i if playing a right sided CH at left back is a tactic I'm going to wash me car in mud. still trying to play out from the back even though teams have sussed we ain't good at it so press us until the inevitable mistake.
3 up front was a shocking system to try away at one of the better teams, who was going to supply them? the same midfield that was atrocious against Sheffield!
playing our best goalscorer out wide in itself is mystifying let alone having two wingers on LOAN sat on the bench.
we need to stop playing the wrong players in a system that tactically is failing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on March 02, 2019, 09:58:34 AM
Personally think at times Moore / Jones complicate things , I'd like something more simple like a 4 4 2 dropping into a 4 5 1 without the ball  or 4 2 3 1 .
                                           Johnstone / Bond
Holgate                     Dawson                 Hegazi            Gibbs

                                           Barry           Johanson

Phillips                                       Jrod / Morrison           Murphy
                                                Gayle
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on March 02, 2019, 10:07:01 AM
The 433 when Barnes and Phillips were playing was basically a 442 with the ball as Barnes was wide left and Phillips still went up and down the right. This allowed Gayle to go into the middle when we had the ball. When we didn’t have the ball Gayle would chase back down the right and Phillips would tuck in. This worked and by adding Holgate for adarabioyo I’m confident it be extremely effective.

Unfortunately we lost the two main players to this system in Barnes and Phillips. The 433 now is too rigid, harper is not as good as Phillips meaning Gayle has to stay out wide, albeit mainly on the left. The only way this system would work again is by putting Murphy out left doing the Barnes role and getting Phillips back in the right centre mid position urgently. We also only need one of Livermore and Barry. With harper, Morrison or johansen completing the midfield 3.

Johnstone
Holgate Dawson Hegazi Gibbs
Phillips Livermore johansen
Gayle jrod Murphy

That team would work but I don’t think Moore can see it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 02, 2019, 11:03:29 PM
Okay where are we at the moment? Last night we ran into a very good Leeds performance and no other team we are going play like it between now and the end of the season. To some extent fixing our line up to counter it is pointless and equally I'm not sure with the personnel we have exactly how we would have countered it.

However last night did highlight some issues that have been self evident for a few games.

1. Gayle's form has dipped. There might be arguments about whether he should be a wide forward (wide players in a 4-3-3 are not traditional wingers) but he is not the force he once was not just the scoring output which is heavily dependent on others making chances but the intensity and effectiveness of his work outside the box. 

2. Phillips was a key component of the 3 man midfield but he has been injured and as is often the case looking off the pace since his return. If we are being honest we might not see the good Phillips again this season which throws out the simple solution of reverting to that set up. Also Holgate changes the dynamic on the right side of the pitch.

3. The midfield in almost any combination remains broken. Barry's brief Indian summer seems to be over and Livermore is a nothing midfielder not a box to box Central Mid nor deep sitting playmaker perhaps a DM but we don't need one let alone 2. Johanson has been a little disappointing maybe it is too soon to declare him a bust but something needs to happen there quickly. Otherwise we are placing an awful lot of resposibility on the young shoulders of Harper and Field.

In a typical a 4-3-3 the 3 midfielders are set up in a triangle with a playmaker at the point of the triangle either in front of 2 central mids or behind them. How this is set up rather depends on whether the playmaker is comfortable getting forward or sitting deep. Although a deep sitting playmaker tends to be associated with high pressing teams whereas a team more inclined to counter will have the playmaker playing ahead of the central mids. We haven't got a number 10 (Morrison maybe but not sure what he has got left in the tank) so our default is the deep sitting playmaker. Can't offer a solution for this there isn't one. Maybe

                                                                   Field

                                                           Johanson Harper

but I wouldn't want to bet much on it being effective.

4. Playing out from the back. I know it gives everyone kittens but I can't see any other playing with the forwards we have as soon as we go long we lose possession. HRK is the only player remotely comfortable playing with his back to goal (incedently Leeds put Cooper on him even when he was outwide to cut off that ball.) and losing Barnes actually does not help here. Even though Barnes was hardly the rugged target man he was better at keeping possesion than Gayle.


To be honest I think this is now very much make do and mend between now and the end of the season. Can we get over the line? I'm not optimistic on recent evidence (oddly enough the Sheffiled game was more concerning than the Leeds one because Leeds played out of their skins Sheffield didn't)


       


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on March 06, 2019, 01:47:29 PM
On the subject here, I can't think there is anyone left in the country who thinks we will stay set up as we have been.  I just wanted to point out in defence of Moore that at half-time the other Saturday (or maybe until just before, I can't recall), Leeds and Norwich were both losing, and if that had stayed the same we would have gone top on GD by beating Sheff Utd.  So it was only really after we lost, after a game and a half's playing time from half time in  the 3.00 kick offs, that it was no longer possible to defend what we have been doing - I think Moore lost his nerve a bit by picking the same midfield for Leeds, and the Toisin selection distracted him, so while it is a major cock-up and blemish for him, you can see why he hesitated to change, you could have argued it was working overall until the last 2 games, in spite of everyone and his granny on here (including me) howling about the tippy tappy from the back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: chipperclark on March 07, 2019, 05:23:15 AM
 :D Gayle has to play in the middle .He is a "goal poacher" and needs through balls to his feet and he can then"spin his magic". His best work comes from anywhere around the 10 yards from goal with crisp passes to his feet. His form has dropped on the wing,where he is wasted.

 JRod should be within 10 yards of Gayle feeding him the "flickons" and getting into scoring positions himself.

Need Phillips,Murphy/Harper and Livermore/Johansen supplying the bullets. With Barry or Field holding.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on March 14, 2019, 12:31:12 PM
We certainly got away with the result v Swansea.  On another night we could've conceded 5.  For me Nathan Dyer pretty much ran the game and we miss having a player like him.  30% possession at home to a Championship side is a worrying stat.  If you cast your mind back to the away match at the Liberty it was more like 50% and a closely fought game.

My observations post Swansea (h):

1) The midfield was hopelessly deep.  Rodriguez is affected because he wants to play "back to goal" and there is a lack of link play with the midfield, who are not advanced.  It is reducing his effectiveness. 
2) Livermore was pretty awful and had a very limited impact on the game.  If we are using Brunt OR Barry in a central 3 then Harper HAS to play.  For me we also need the most mobile player in there and I would advocate Tosin.  He is a natural at carrying the ball and has good pace.  This can make up for the lack of defensive qualities in Brunt/Barry and free them up for what they're good at.  It will also make it harder for the opposition to play through us.  As stated, Livermore is not doing enough currently IMO.
3) I still see a lack of chemistry and link up between Gayle and Rodriguez.  They both just look isolated forwards playing individually.  I say it again pick ONE.  Gayle looks more suited to our set up and can play on the shoulder of the last defender which allows us to mix the play more.   
4) With our static midfield, it's surely imperative to utilise 2 wingers to ask the questions of the opposition that we are not doing consistently through the centre?  We have 3 options; Murphy, Phillips, Montero.
5) If Gibbs and Holgate don't play then our threat from the flanks is diminished further as Townsend and Mears are more defensive options.
6) The seismic impact that Harvery Barnes is starting to resonate with all WBA supporters.  I think we can all be guilty of underestimating the true impact of his loss to the team.  It's a similar thing as to when Grealish was out of the Villa team.

I expect we'll set up to frustrate Brentford rather than us playing on the front foot.  Let's hope they don't have their shooting boots on!

I don't enjoy being negative but I still think we look disjointed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on March 14, 2019, 12:46:41 PM
You make some very good points Greg but don't get too hung up on the possession stats. Shan set us up to deliberately invite Swansea to have the lion's share of possession so the outcome stats were inevitable. I think last night was a pragmatic win at all costs performance and we managed to do so. I take the positives from that. What is blatantly clear is that we need a new man at the helm, and quickly, who fully understands this division tactically. I would also disagree about Tosin. Given his background he is a very poor passer of the ball IMO.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on March 14, 2019, 12:51:43 PM
You make some very good points Greg but don't get too hung up on the possession stats. Shan set us up to deliberately invite Swansea to have the lion's share of possession so the outcome stats were inevitable. I think last night was a pragmatic win at all costs performance and we managed to do so. I take the positives from that. What is blatantly clear is that we need a new man at the helm, and quickly, who fully understands this division tactically. I would also disagree about Tosin. Given his background he is a very poor passer of the ball IMO.

The problem with conceding possession is you have to be good defensively. We conceded possession last night and still allowed them to have 7 or 8 very good chances. That is poor.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 15, 2019, 09:07:47 PM
I wouldn't normally comment on a one off game because there is often very specific circumstances and we are looking at a caretaker coach who isn't going to be around beyond one or two games however the game offers a very obvious counterpoint to what had gone before. 

We ditched any pretence of a passing game. Shape was a very deep sitting 4-2-3-1 with Gayle playing the lone striker who was isolated and largely ineffective. A double pivot of Brunt and Livermore sat in front of a back four. Transitions were laboured although not as laboured as they were against Ipswich.

Swansea (let's be honest not a team of household names) passed us off the park box to box but were pretty ineffective in both boxes although had McBurnie been on the pitch I doubt we have got away with a clean sheet. We defended in numbers but individually like much of the time under Pulis we didn't defend well and constantly gifting the opposition possession only ever invites pressure.

If the squad can only play that way it is plainly nowhere the best squad in the league as some claim and the sooner it is broken up the better.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 15, 2019, 09:43:54 PM
I wouldn't normally comment on a one off game because there is often very specific circumstances and we are looking at a caretaker coach who isn't going to be around beyond one or two games however the game offers a very obvious counterpoint to what had gone before. 

We ditched any pretence of a passing game. Shape was a very deep sitting 4-2-3-1 with Gayle playing the lone striker who was isolated and largely ineffective. A double pivot of Brunt and Livermore sat in front of a back four. Transitions were laboured although not as laboured as they were against Ipswich.

Swansea (let's be honest not a team of household names) passed us off the park box to box but were pretty ineffective in both boxes although had McBurnie been on the pitch I doubt we have got away with a clean sheet. We defended in numbers but individually like much of the time under Pulis we didn't defend well and constantly gifting the opposition possession only ever invites pressure.

If the squad can only play that way it is plainly nowhere the best squad in the league as some claim and the sooner it is broken up the better.

I   
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 15, 2019, 10:11:39 PM
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.

I thought "all things to all men" was a failed Graeme Jones strategy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 15, 2019, 10:13:45 PM
I thought "all things to all men" was a failed Graeme Jones strategy.
Strange reply.
Why do you say that?
I was saying that our players have to learn how to pass to one another.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 15, 2019, 10:35:01 PM
Strange reply.
Why do you say that?
I was saying that our players have to learn how to pass to one another.

This is what you said

"Also they must expect the ball from ANY where."

That suggests an "all things to all men" strategy.

Fluidity & multi option is a fine intent, but in a fast moving sport, carries major risk, as our previous coaching staff found out to their cost.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: The Black Pearl on March 15, 2019, 10:35:39 PM
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.

Here in lies the problem, passing a football was neglected by Pulis, it will take a long while to re gain a passing philosophy, it was ironic that we faced Swansea, a side built now and in the past on the passing game, I remember in our promotion to the Premier League around 10 years ago, we went to Swansea for a mid week game, they passed us off the park but we won 1-0, not much changes does it?
But I think we all want to see an effective passing Albion side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 15, 2019, 10:40:55 PM
This is what you said

"Also they must expect the ball from ANY where."

That suggests an "all things to all men" strategy.

Fluidity & multi option is a fine intent, but in a fast moving sport, carries major risk, as our previous coaching staff found out to their cost.
Cheers for thge explaination.
But what stops our players expecting a ball (also miskicked) rather than being surprised that it has come to them and then dawdle and can't react?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 15, 2019, 11:05:05 PM
Cheers for thge explaination.
But what stops our players expecting a ball (also miskicked) rather than being surprised that it has come to them and then dawdle and can't react?


Not sure I'm seeing that.

Most of our players receiving a ball have asked for it, or see an opportunity for an interception.

At games, I'm not seeing too many misplaced passes, although I will admit we do sometimes have a problem with getting the correct weight of pass.

If you're refering to passes in the final third & around the penalty area, I think (at our level) you have to expect a low percentage of success. IMO you have to have a special type of player to pull those off on a regular basis. Man City, Chelsea etc pay a lot of money, both for & to players of that calibre.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 15, 2019, 11:19:27 PM
Unfortunately, a lot of players are just not concentrating.
They have tunnel vision and can be drawn into the melee (dragged to where the crowd is) rather than making them selves available and thinking "Oops, I must watch the ball". I have noticed over too many years and too many games, how often the ball goes past (headed or flicked) all the players from a corner over to the other side of the pitch. No one seems to be prepared to react. They must learn to expect the unexpected (miskicks etc.).
We can exploit this by having a player far wide from that corner kick.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 16, 2019, 09:06:19 AM
The key to anything other than Pulisball is passing be that from the back or through the midfield after a turnover of possession. The basic technique is not difficult or put it this way if a kid in the under 14's can't master it then he would have little hope of making the Under 15's. 

The key is movement and movement that anticipates the pass rather than movement from one fixed position to another. Swansea had this we didn't. When this group of players is under stress they stop moving they take up fixed defensive positions and stop showing for passes the options for the player on the ball reduce they either give the ball away or attempt the impossible pass a booming 40 yard cross field ball that seldom works but looks good when it comes off.

This seems to be deeply entrenched in this group of players DNA and new arrivals seem to quickly become infected by it. I fear for any coach who tries to change this without the very necessary clear out. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 14, 2019, 09:43:25 AM
Well here we are again having come full circle

Yesterday we played 3-5-2. With Gayle and Rodriguez up top and we looked a threat scored 4 goals. Maybe Moore and Jones were on to something.

Or maybe there were differences and maybe those differences were important.

 1. Shan was able to use Holgate rather Phillips/Adarabioyo as RWB this is a major improvement.

 2. he swapped Bartley and Hegazi with Bartley playing at the centre of the 3 and Hegazi on the left and Bartley looked a lot more at home on that position.

3. In general we were a lot more direct in our play and didn't try to pass out from the back.

Obviously this is a one off but interestingly had we gone down this route it renders nearly a fifth of the squad redundant i.e. the wingers Phillips, Murphy, Montero, Edwards and Leko. Unless they could fill in as wing backs (Edwards/Phillips) or play centrally Phillips then they aren't going to get a lot of game time.

I think this highlights the importance of hiring to a tactical blueprint without exception. We don't keep or hire anyone who doesn't fit the blueprint but unless you know what the blueprint is you can't do this. 
 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on April 14, 2019, 12:04:41 PM
Well here we are again having come full circle

Yesterday we played 3-5-2. With Gayle and Rodriguez up top and we looked a threat scored 4 goals. Maybe Moore and Jones were on to something.

Or maybe there were differences and maybe those differences were important.

 1. Shan was able to use Holgate rather Phillips/Adarabioyo as RWB this is a major improvement.

 2. he swapped Bartley and Hegazi with Bartley playing at the centre of the 3 and Hegazi on the left and Bartley looked a lot more at home on that position.

3. In general we were a lot more direct in our play and didn't try to pass out from the back.

Obviously this is a one off but interestingly had we gone down this route it renders nearly a fifth of the squad redundant i.e. the wingers Phillips, Murphy, Montero, Edwards and Leko. Unless they could fill in as wing backs (Edwards/Phillips) or play centrally Phillips then they aren't going to get a lot of game time.

I think this highlights the importance of hiring to a tactical blueprint without exception. We don't keep or hire anyone who doesn't fit the blueprint but unless you know what the blueprint is you can't do this.


Agreed, although I wouldn’t call all of the others redundant as we need cover and depth in those key positions.

You didn’t mention Johansen, who I think now adds a lot of energy to the 3-5-2 formation in CM which we didn’t have until January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on April 14, 2019, 02:16:22 PM
Somewhere along the way some of us pointed out that 352 was OK at home until the change of setup, when we started basically winning away and drawing at home with 433.

352 is also a hell of a lot better if you're not passing to Bartley or Livermore around the D!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 15, 2019, 06:55:30 AM

Agreed, although I wouldn’t call all of the others redundant as we need cover and depth in those key positions.

You didn’t mention Johansen, who I think now adds a lot of energy to the 3-5-2 formation in CM which we didn’t have until January.

Yes Johansen looked like the type of dynamic central midfielder that I hoped he would be when he signed. Although I think Phillips could work in the role. It is a flat 3 in the middle like it was in the 4-3-3 but with Johansen being the one Central Mid who has licence to get forward as Phillips did in the 4-3-3.

My point is that Montero, Murphy and Leko who are really out and out wingers they don't add depth they are specialists in a position we don't have. If an ideal squad consists of a first choice player and a spare and we are playing 3-5-2 we need 6 Centre Backs, 4 Wing Backs, 6 Central Midfielders and 4 Strikers.

We have 3 Strikers 4 Centre Backs 3 wing backs and a mess of central midfielders too many of whom are either specialist DM's or AM's who have played the bulk of their careers in teams that don't play in that shape.

The point of managing our recruitment and retention to a specific shape and style of play is key. There was no point in having Attacking Midfielders or ball players under Pulis just as now there is no point in having wingers if we are playing with wing backs.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on April 17, 2019, 12:22:14 PM
I agree with you standaman but I could see Murphy being effective as one of the front 2 for us and expect him to get some game time in that position over the next 4 games allowing us to rest Gayle and Rodriguez as required. The aforementioned 3 with Robson-Kanu would give us the 4 strikers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on April 17, 2019, 02:03:54 PM
We have a decent First XI to put out in this shape, that's the main thing, we will need a benchful too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on April 17, 2019, 02:31:05 PM
We have a decent First XI to put out in this shape, that's the main thing, we will need a benchful too.


We don't have that unfortunately. Standaman is bang on right with everything he says. We do not have strength in depth for this system but hopefully we can get through 6 or 7 games without needing strength in depth. Over to the gods.

"God is an Albion fan, oh god is an Albion fan"
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 13, 2019, 03:16:25 PM
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 13, 2019, 03:26:24 PM
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: miggybaggy on June 13, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.

Dear God! I was elated earlier....now I'm depressed again. :o
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: albion59 on June 13, 2019, 03:46:36 PM
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.
That team you picked second would get us relegated! Half of them won't be here at the start of the saeson I hope!!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 13, 2019, 03:56:34 PM
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.

If he had a midfielder next to him who could get up and down and was a brilliant ball-winner alongside him, then maybe, but not for me.

 
That team you picked second would get us relegated! Half of them won't be here at the start of the saeson I hope!!

It is what I anticipate we would be left with losing the players I'd expect to lose without bringing any in. Of course we will bring some in so don't panic!! I'am also not convinced that would relegate us but we wouldn't be in the promotion mix, that's for sure.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OldburyWBA on June 13, 2019, 04:04:10 PM
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.

Then that will be his first mistake, this midfield needs totally rejuvenating with legs and people who can tackle when needed, Brunt has neither of those abilities. Hopefully Livermore will be gone and Brunt will be a bench warmer, but then you fully expected these type of comments when you posted but not really bites from people, just replies from those who disagree.

Also I hope we do not revisit the Morrison and Myhill options and due to wages the Barry option although he would be the ideal player to sit in that deep lying role as he has been the best player there in recent years.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on June 13, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Yes i'll be worried if Brunt retains his CM role. I'm hoping Bilic brings in a younger, box-to-box type who gets forward. Livermore and Brunt should not be starting in CM.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 14, 2019, 02:09:59 AM
Bilic's stock formations at West Ham were 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1.

We haven't got a functioning version of either with the current personnel that is before any potential departures. Looking at Bilic at West Ham and assuming that will be his template going forward I would make the following observations. 

Back 4 there is nothing particular required of the back 4 in both cases the full backs can either attacking or more defensive. The key question here is how deep the team sits defensively and to what extent they play out from the back Bilic's teams are not noted for a high press and out of possession will tend to adopt a 3/4 block i.e. probably look to play 10 yards further forward than a team adopting the traditional deep sitting block.

In terms of playing out from the back West Ham adopted a mixed approach if a team backed off they would play through the midfield but they were equally comfortable hitting the forwards early when pressed or when counter attacking opportunities presented themselves.

This style is a real challenge for defenders and those used to playing in a deep block like ours often struggle to adapt. I suspect part of the West Ham's defensive problem was their squad moving from an Allardyce deep sitting block to this.


Midfield

In both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 Billic plays a central midfield 3 with 2 deep sitting Central Mids and either an advanced playmaker or a more traditional number 10 playing ahead of them. The role of double pivot is pretty much the same in both systems which is to provide both defensive cover and initiate attacks.

The advanced central midfielder's role is varies depending on the shape. In a 4-3-3 the role is an advanced playmaker (think Lanzini) who plays behind the front 3 picking passes for the forwards. Whereas in a 4-2-3-1 the role is a more traditional attacking midfielder charged with not only link up play but also carrying a goal scoring threat like Payet. 

Out wide in a 4-3-2-1 the wide players are closer to traditional wingers but unlike a Pulis side they are less rigid and the 3 behind the lone striker interchange positions.

Forwards

In both formations the Centre Forward is a target man and is the focal point of the attack. The importance of the role cannot be over emphasised. While there is a great deal of positional fluidity around the Centre Forward his role is fixed playing the width of the 18 yard box and engaging the oppositions Centre Backs providing the platform for others to work off.

In the 4-3-3 the Centre Forward is joined by 2 wide attackers. It is important to differentiate between the two types of wide player. Jacob Murphy is a Winger and Michail Antonio is a wide attacker not only are they very different in physique but whereas Antonio can pretty much do everything that Murphy can out wide he is also an effective as a striker and could even be pressed into service as a lone striker. This is not about the quality of the player it is about their function in the team and the skill sets they have.

Looking at the current squad the best fit for either formation might be

4-3-3

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore
AM Harper

WAR Phillips
CF Rodreguiz
WAL Robson Kanu


4-2-3-1

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore

RW Phillips
AM Harper
LW Brunt

CF Rodreguiz

The above highlights the work that the club has to do. Not only are there players we would not ideally see as first choices but there are question marks about the suitability of some in the role and also question marks over the future of at least 5 of the players.

I have Harper down as the attacking midfielder I have doubts about him in that role in a 4-2-3-1 and in any event he is out of contract at the end of the month.

Rodreguiz is not a target man but at the moment he along with HRK who isn't either are the only forwards we have at the club. At £10m it looks likely that Jay Rod will go.

The midfield is the usual mess. I would pencil in Field's name other than that I think we need to bring in another Central Midfielder Livermore/Brunt as cover perhaps although frankly Livermore earns way too much to be cover in a Championship squad in an ideal world I would move him on.

Phillips is the right footed player who probably has the skill set for the wide forward role yet is entering into the last year of his contract and the only position where we have any depth of cover is right footed wide players. e.g. Edwards/Leko/Burke. Can Bilic get a tune out of Burke? If he can that might be a huge plus for the squad but if I had to place my faith anywhere I would be looking to Edwards.

Gibbs might well leave but would be fine if we retain him.

At Centre back aside from the fact that both Hegazi and Dawson could potentially leave I might have some doubts about either of them operating in a 3/4 block. Younger more fleet of foot defenders might be required but given everything else we have to do if they don't leave I would go with that partnership.

Wilson gets the RB spot by default although there is always the returning Nyom. Okay add a RB to the list.

As I was typing this I felt overwhelmed by the extent of the task. We know it is a complete rebuild but at least we know what we are working toward even if there will be question marks over the existing squad. I doubt we will have the perfect squad come the end of the window hopefully the key compoents will be in place and enough quality to give Bilic a fighting chance of promotion.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 14, 2019, 07:52:40 AM
Can Burke become our Antonio ? Pace, power, directness (potentially), aerial ability. Antonio has an impressive work rate and as Stan says above it would be a major bonus if Bilic can get that work rate and a tune out of Burke.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on June 14, 2019, 09:18:01 AM
Bilic's stock formations at West Ham were 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1.

We haven't got a functioning version of either with the current personnel that is before any potential departures. Looking at Bilic at West Ham and assuming that will be his template going forward I would make the following observations. 

Back 4 there is nothing particular required of the back 4 in both cases the full backs can either attacking or more defensive. The key question here is how deep the team sits defensively and to what extent they play out from the back Bilic's teams are not noted for a high press and out of possession will tend to adopt a 3/4 block i.e. probably look to play 10 yards further forward than a team adopting the traditional deep sitting block.

In terms of playing out from the back West Ham adopted a mixed approach if a team backed off they would play through the midfield but they were equally comfortable hitting the forwards early when pressed or when counter attacking opportunities presented themselves.

This style is a real challenge for defenders and those used to playing in a deep block like ours often struggle to adapt. I suspect part of the West Ham's defensive problem was their squad moving from an Allardyce deep sitting block to this.


Midfield

In both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 Billic plays a central midfield 3 with 2 deep sitting Central Mids and either an advanced playmaker or a more traditional number 10 playing ahead of them. The role of double pivot is pretty much the same in both systems which is to provide both defensive cover and initiate attacks.

The advanced central midfielder's role is varies depending on the shape. In a 4-3-3 the role is an advanced playmaker (think Lanzini) who plays behind the front 3 picking passes for the forwards. Whereas in a 4-2-3-1 the role is a more traditional attacking midfielder charged with not only link up play but also carrying a goal scoring threat like Payet. 

Out wide in a 4-3-2-1 the wide players are closer to traditional wingers but unlike a Pulis side they are less rigid and the 3 behind the lone striker interchange positions.

Forwards

In both formations the Centre Forward is a target man and is the focal point of the attack. The importance of the role cannot be over emphasised. While there is a great deal of positional fluidity around the Centre Forward his role is fixed playing the width of the 18 yard box and engaging the oppositions Centre Backs providing the platform for others to work off.

In the 4-3-3 the Centre Forward is joined by 2 wide attackers. It is important to differentiate between the two types of wide player. Jacob Murphy is a Winger and Michail Antonio is a wide attacker not only are they very different in physique but whereas Antonio can pretty much do everything that Murphy can out wide he is also an effective as a striker and could even be pressed into service as a lone striker. This is not about the quality of the player it is about their function in the team and the skill sets they have.

Looking at the current squad the best fit for either formation might be

4-3-3

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore
AM Harper

WAR Phillips
CF Rodreguiz
WAL Robson Kanu


4-2-3-1

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore

RW Phillips
AM Harper
LW Brunt

CF Rodreguiz

The above highlights the work that the club has to do. Not only are there players we would not ideally see as first choices but there are question marks about the suitability of some in the role and also question marks over the future of at least 5 of the players.

I have Harper down as the attacking midfielder I have doubts about him in that role in a 4-2-3-1 and in any event he is out of contract at the end of the month.

Rodreguiz is not a target man but at the moment he along with HRK who isn't either are the only forwards we have at the club. At £10m it looks likely that Jay Rod will go.

The midfield is the usual mess. I would pencil in Field's name other than that I think we need to bring in another Central Midfielder Livermore/Brunt as cover perhaps although frankly Livermore earns way too much to be cover in a Championship squad in an ideal world I would move him on.

Phillips is the right footed player who probably has the skill set for the wide forward role yet is entering into the last year of his contract and the only position where we have any depth of cover is right footed wide players. e.g. Edwards/Leko/Burke. Can Bilic get a tune out of Burke? If he can that might be a huge plus for the squad but if I had to place my faith anywhere I would be looking to Edwards.

Gibbs might well leave but would be fine if we retain him.

At Centre back aside from the fact that both Hegazi and Dawson could potentially leave I might have some doubts about either of them operating in a 3/4 block. Younger more fleet of foot defenders might be required but given everything else we have to do if they don't leave I would go with that partnership.

Wilson gets the RB spot by default although there is always the returning Nyom. Okay add a RB to the list.

As I was typing this I felt overwhelmed by the extent of the task. We know it is a complete rebuild but at least we know what we are working toward even if there will be question marks over the existing squad. I doubt we will have the perfect squad come the end of the window hopefully the key compoents will be in place and enough quality to give Bilic a fighting chance of promotion.

Very good summary.  I’m sure we will use our 5 permitted loans again, but in terms of recruitment it’s certainly going to need the January window as well to get us even close to a balanced squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: divinewind on June 14, 2019, 12:22:41 PM
We will definitely use the loan system again, probably with a view to permanent signing if we get promoted. I think this is one of the areas that Bilic will excel, some decent players at other clubs not quite able to hold down a first team place would relish to play for Bilic,...hopefully.
But we need to have them on a season loan, not to be left in limbo like last season when Barnes went back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on June 14, 2019, 12:48:28 PM
It's no use trying to apply Bilic's previous formations and tactics to our current squad; we will probably look very different come August.

Hopefully Bilic will play a full part in helping to shape the new squad, so we don't leave him lumbered with players that don't fit what he wants to do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 14, 2019, 01:58:34 PM
It's no use trying to apply Bilic's previous formations and tactics to our current squad

I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on June 14, 2019, 02:34:10 PM
If SB goes with 2 holding MF players I would hope that it’s a Mulumbu  / Yacob type pairing ie a disruptor with someone with legs along side him giving both a platform and the energy to move forward at pace. We have missed this SO much for far too long
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on June 14, 2019, 04:47:50 PM
I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.

I think he meant it's no use with regard to current players rather than the formation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on June 14, 2019, 04:54:53 PM
I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.

We can speculate on formation yes, but my point is that we don't know what the squad will look like, so can't tell who will be playing where come the start of the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 14, 2019, 08:35:05 PM
The British game has evolved immensely since Bilic has been gone. I'd read nothing on what he has used before.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 14, 2019, 08:42:33 PM
If SB goes with 2 holding MF players I would hope that it’s a Mulumbu  / Yacob type pairing ie a disruptor with someone with legs along side him giving both a platform and the energy to move forward at pace. We have missed this SO much for far too long
What we've missed for longer is an attacking midfielder and some creativity.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 14, 2019, 08:53:43 PM
I think he meant it's no use with regard to current players rather than the formation.

We can speculate on formation yes, but my point is that we don't know what the squad will look like, so can't tell who will be playing where come the start of the season.

Sorry I misunderstood, yes I agree, hard to know who will and wont be here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on June 14, 2019, 09:36:16 PM
Massive rebuild needed, I make it (assuming 4231 and before any departures):

GK
RB x2
CB
CM x2
AM
LW x2
ST

And then if we over-rely on the loan market and don't get promoted we're even more screwed next summer. Anyone wondering why I expected us to walk the league and was critical of Moore from the off will now understand exactly why.

Going to need to hit the European market for free transfers and some cheaper talent. Then as long as we've got a decent number of permanent signings we can top up with the standard loans for players like Dowell, Woodburn etc.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 14, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
What I was trying to do in my earlier post was demonstrate the difference between the two formations favoured by Bilic and broadly what personnel are required to make them work. The next part of the post was to measure where we are and what gaps exist today. I know there are going to be departures but the whole squad is not going to vanish overnight and even some of the more saleable players could be here next season.

What we should be aiming for is a clear first choice in each role within Bilic's basic tactical template. We then need a spare and possibly 1 or 2 utility players to bulk out the squad and provide a little bit of depth. In general I would spend the vast bulk of the resources on the first XI. I would also be using our academy graduates wherever possible to be the understudy. So for instance at CB if retain two of Dawson Hegazi and Bartley I would expect Fitzwater and O'Shea to be the back up options.

What I would not do unless forced into it would be hiring back up options like Sakho Hoolahan etc..

Even to get to first base making the unrealistic assumption that nobody leaves. We probably need a first choice RB,CF*CM,AM and LW.

*In theory Rodreguiz could be the first choice CF but remember that both 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 work with a target man style CF and Rodreguiz isn't which brings me to another key point. If a senior pro does not fit the template we should try to move them on. Whatever Rodreguiz's release clause is we should not be afraid to trade him out rather than making an ill fitting first choice or worse still an ill fitting back up option.

With regard to the loan market I am torn. I understand that fans want to secure players on contracts in the hope of some coninuity but the plain truth is there is too much talent in the loan market for the club to forgoe it as an option. I could make a solid case for nearly half of the top 10 players in the division last season being loanees.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 15, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
I would spend the vast bulk of the resources on the first XI. I would also be using our academy graduates wherever possible to be the understudy. So for instance at CB if retain two of Dawson Hegazi and Bartley I would expect Fitzwater and O'Shea to be the back up options.

 If a senior pro does not fit the template we should try to move them on. Whatever Rodreguiz's release clause is we should not be afraid to trade him out rather than making an ill fitting first choice or worse still an ill fitting back up option.

With regard to the loan market I am torn. I understand that fans want to secure players on contracts in the hope of some coninuity but the plain truth is there is too much talent in the loan market for the club to forgoe it as an option. I could make a solid case for nearly half of the top 10 players in the division last season being loanees.

The three parts above that I've left from your post standaman are the most important to me. There comes a time when we have to utilise the young players and really give them a chance, albeit as first replacements and that time is now. If this season is a disaster then we will need them next, the experience will have done them good. We absolutely should not be paying backup players good money.

Regarding senior pros, if they dont fit the template then sure, sell. I'd go further, any decent offers I'd sell too. Most are coming out of their prime and haven't been playing particularly well for the last two years. You'd maybe be hesitant to let the boys at the back go but I'm not so sure they'll be suited to the defensive line Bilic seems likely to want.

We absolutely have to target loans: Barnes, Gayle, Abraham, James, Mount, Wilson...were all stars last year and I could go on. In my opinion the idea would be to get a couple of first team loanees and no more but definitely go for the best ones available on the market that you can tie down for the whole season. I'd steer clear of 6-month loans after the Barnes experience last year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 15, 2019, 09:24:04 AM

Regarding senior pros, if they dont fit the template then sure, sell. I'd go further, any decent offers I'd sell too. Most are coming out of their prime and haven't been playing particularly well for the last two years. You'd maybe be hesitant to let the boys at the back go but I'm not so sure they'll be suited to the defensive line Bilic seems likely to want.


I broadly agree with this, I only hesitate because of the scale of the task and on an indivdual basis there is a level of talent  that is going to be difficult for us to match as a Championship club. For instance Gibbs is almost certainly entering his post peak years as a full back but I struggle to see us recruiting a comprable talent in the Championship. Even without departures it is easy to identify 5 positions that we need to recruit for and there comes a point where intergrating a dozen or more players will swallow the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: slate on June 15, 2019, 11:10:26 AM
I broadly agree with this, I only hesitate because of the scale of the task and on an indivdual basis there is a level of talent  that is going to be difficult for us to match as a Championship club. For instance Gibbs is almost certainly entering his post peak years as a full back but I struggle to see us recruiting a comprable talent in the Championship. Even without departures it is easy to identify 5 positions that we need to recruit for and there comes a point where intergrating a dozen or more players will swallow the season.

First off, thanks for your previous post- really informative and must have taken you some time. Appreciated.

There is clearly a massive overhaul required due to several very poor transfer windows with respect to permanent players. Bilic will need to identify new players quickly, be backed by the club and then convince them to move promptly if we are serious about making a push for promotion this season. The latter two points clearly being the most difficult.

We can't have another "normal" West Brom transfer window and rely on shoehorning in some last minute loan signings. This summer window is potentially going to define what kind of club we are for the next few years.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 15, 2019, 04:24:54 PM
First off, thanks for your previous post- really informative and must have taken you some time. Appreciated.

There is clearly a massive overhaul required due to several very poor transfer windows with respect to permanent players. Bilic will need to identify new players quickly, be backed by the club and then convince them to move promptly if we are serious about making a push for promotion this season. The latter two points clearly being the most difficult.

We can't have another "normal" West Brom transfer window and rely on shoehorning in some last minute loan signings. This summer window is potentially going to define what kind of club we are for the next few years.
Bilic may have ideas on a couple of players but it should also be a case of getting his views on players that Dowling and co have already targeted. It has to be a joint recruitment exercise.
While we know certain gaps in the squad, there will be delays on certain things as it's not all under our control i.e. it may take until mid or late July or even later for decent offers to come in for the likes of Dawson, Rodriguez, Hegazi, Gibbs, Phillips.
There also has to be Dowling + Bilic consensus on which youngsters are going to be used more this season which in turn affects the shopping list of players we need to bring in. Morgan Rogers may not be 'fully ready' but he could have more talent at his disposal than anyone we are likely to sign.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 15, 2019, 06:30:35 PM
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: cads_ap_albion on June 15, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?

Rondon is gone. The club will not miss out on £16m for him, given JR will go for £5m. Both will be snapped up.

Gayle and Gibbs will go to the premier League.

I hope you are right come Sept 1st but I reckon we might have 4 of those names only next season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on June 15, 2019, 07:47:24 PM
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?


Bilic will not play 4-4-2 (thankfully).

Rondon won't be here. I wouldn't be certain on his release clause being met though, this is the last year of his contract and clubs know that. We may let him go for a lesser fee.

Gayle is not coming back and wouldn't fit into a Bilic team anyway.

Mark Noble is on a reported £50K per week. No way will we pay that and I can't see us signing a 32 year old midfielder.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBArgo on June 15, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
Noble won't come here - he's just had one of his best seasons for West Ham and is still firmly a regular at his boyhood club.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BB74 on June 15, 2019, 09:00:24 PM
Noble?  ;D cloud cuckoo land!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Scooby Doo on June 15, 2019, 09:36:02 PM
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?

Whilst that side is well beyond the realms, it's not just a team we need. It's a squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 15, 2019, 10:47:41 PM
Generally I would refrain from commenting on possible transfers here but the one thing the appointment of Bilic should firmly lay to rest is any prospect of Gayle returning to the club. He is not the type of target man Centre Forward that makes either of Bilic's preferred formations work.

For those who want evidence that Bilic was not wholly in control of transfers at West Ham I give you Chicharito who is in many ways similar to Gayle. With Sakho sold and Caroll generally injured what Bilic needed was a target man CF what he got was Chicharito, who Bilic ended up trying to shoehorn into the line up as a wide striker (sound familiar?) and here is another surprise he lost his job shortly thereafter.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: albion59 on June 15, 2019, 10:59:24 PM
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?
why not? Where as Hart appeared from? And Rondon, Gayle and Noble! Haha not a chance not that i would want either except Gayle. Bartley,Livermore and Edwards? Not good enough so that's why not. We need a complete overall and i can't wait until the changes start.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 16, 2019, 09:30:27 AM
why not? Where as Hart appeared from? And Rondon, Gayle and Noble! Haha not a chance not that i would want either except Gayle. Bartley,Livermore and Edwards? Not good enough so that's why not. We need a complete overall and i can't wait until the changes start.
Are you writing Edwards off already ? Based on what ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 16, 2019, 12:33:14 PM
why not? Where as Hart appeared from? And Rondon, Gayle and Noble! Haha not a chance not that i would want either except Gayle. Bartley,Livermore and Edwards? Not good enough so that's why not. We need a complete overall and i can't wait until the changes start.
Hart is third choice at Burnley and will want to be playing
Rondon is ou player
Gayle has played for us
Noble will be well known to Slav who may want his man on the pitch

You may not think those three are good enough, however Slav might, and even if not ....someone would have to buy them or we need to purchase about 12 players ...which won't happen
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 05, 2019, 04:37:53 PM
Think this might be worth updating with the developments of the last week

I am calling it now before a ball has been kicked but Slaven is going 4-3-3 just on the strength of the Filip Krovinovic signing.

This is what looks like at the moment first XI alternatives in brackets

                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Nyom            Bartley Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Wilson)     (Fittzwater) (O'Sea)             (Townsend)

                Livermore   Field
                (Brunt)    (    ?      )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper / ?)

Phillips               Rodreguiz                  Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)


To distill that into our immeadiate needs:

1 x Centre Forward 1x Wide Left attacker (i.e. left footed) 1x CM/DM the wide left forward and the midfielder needs to be of first choice calibre and the Centre Forward less so but right now they are just gaps.

In addition RB needs an upgrade on Nyom .

Equally if anyone leaves (except a right sided wide attacker) they need to be replaced. As ever while there is tons of speculation there are no hard offers on the table so a player under contract is still an Albion player.

The advanced playmaker role is pivotal to how the system works going forward if Harper doesn't sign we will need to source a back up or better first choice option than Krovinovic.

I haven't included Rondon much as I would like to but it seems very clear that he won't be an Albion player come the end of the window the club isn't even trying to pretend otherwise.

Now the contentious bit. I am very aware many fans don't rate Livermore,Robson-Kanu and Bartley in particular but the plain fact is they are on good contracts no other club is going to come in for them so other things being equal they will feature next season. For the most part I would hope as back ups to better and younger players but they aren't going to be replaced altogehter.




Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 05, 2019, 07:40:53 PM
I still don't envisage any scenario where Brunt doesn't start in central midfield looking at our personnel.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on July 05, 2019, 10:06:36 PM
Think this might be worth updating with the developments of the last week

I am calling it now before a ball has been kicked but Slaven is going 4-3-3 just on the strength of the Filip Krovinovic signing.

This is what looks like at the moment first XI alternatives in brackets

                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Nyom            Bartley Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Wilson)     (Fittzwater) (O'Sea)             (Townsend)

                Livermore   Field
                (Brunt)    (    ?      )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper / ?)

Phillips               Rodreguiz                  Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)


To distill that into our immeadiate needs:

1 x Centre Forward 1x Wide Left attacker (i.e. left footed) 1x CM/DM the wide left forward and the midfielder needs to be of first choice calibre and the Centre Forward less so but right now they are just gaps.

In addition RB needs an upgrade on Nyom .

Equally if anyone leaves (except a right sided wide attacker) they need to be replaced. As ever while there is tons of speculation there are no hard offers on the table so a player under contract is still an Albion player.

The advanced playmaker role is pivotal to how the system works going forward if Harper doesn't sign we will need to source a back up or better first choice option than Krovinovic.

I haven't included Rondon much as I would like to but it seems very clear that he won't be an Albion player come the end of the window the club isn't even trying to pretend otherwise.

Now the contentious bit. I am very aware many fans don't rate Livermore,Robson-Kanu and Bartley in particular but the plain fact is they are on good contracts no other club is going to come in for them so other things being equal they will feature next season. For the most part I would hope as back ups to better and younger players but they aren't going to be replaced altogehter.

It's difficult to predict what system Bilic will prefer simply because there will be several more incoming's in the coming weeks, though you could well be correct with the 4-3-3 set-up.

Livermore, Bartley and Robson-Kanu are solid squad players at this level but I fancy they won't be regular starters this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on July 05, 2019, 10:19:14 PM
I still don't envisage any scenario where Brunt doesn't start in central midfield looking at our personnel.

I doubt very much Brunt will be playing centrally very much at all this season, even looking at our squad as it stands.

                                   Johnstone

           NEW RB      NEW CB       Hegazi        Gibbs

Phillips     Livermore/Harper/NEW CM    Krovinovic      Brunt/NEW LW

                       Rodriguez   Rondon/NEW FW

SUBS: Bartley, Robson-Kanu, Burke, Field, NEW SIGNING, NEW SIGNING, Bond


I think we'll still see 6-7 new signings before the window shuts.

     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 05, 2019, 10:36:28 PM
The stated aim is to have a younger more energetic squad and team. Krovinovic isn't going to solve the midfield issues on his own. We need some legs and energy behind and to move forward in support of him. Of the obvious three from current personnel Brunt, Field and Livermore, Field is the one that can tackle, pass , move and is the right end of the age spectrum with improvement in him....rather than on the downward slide. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 05, 2019, 11:23:02 PM
The reason I am confident about the formation is because Bilic has just signed  Krovinovic whose best position is an advanced play maker in a 4-3-3. I am sure his agent will tell you that he can play anywhere in a 3 behind a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1 but in our case that just adds to the stockpile of right footed wide players and it isn't true. Krovinovic does not score enough goals to be a 10 in a 4-2-3-1 nor is defensively strong enough to play a central role in a 4-4-2.

Most of the question marks in my earlier post should be first choice recruits. In particular we still need to recruit a new central midfielder. I don't see Brunt in that role and expect that his versatility will see him in most match day squads but I doubt he will be in many starting XI's.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 06, 2019, 01:00:13 AM
He's far from a 4-3-3 man, infact in his two full seasons at West Ham he played 3 at the back, 4 at the back and 5 at the back. 1 DM, 2 DMs. Wingers in a 5 man midfield. 3 attacking midfielders, and also occasionally 4-3-3.


The only constant was the use of a target man up front and he hardly ever reverts to 4-4-2.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on July 06, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
Not sure on the system yet  it will depend who is here come the first week in August. Phil the croat has to play and we should be blooding field and Harper also.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on July 06, 2019, 10:56:12 PM
I have to say that I am a bit concerned that Phil the Croat is having to turn up and be the next Messi, we are not paying a fortune and he has not been playing for a while,let's temper out expectations until the lad has had an extended run in the side
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 06, 2019, 10:59:29 PM
I have to say that I am a bit concerned that Phil the Croat is having to turn up and be the next Messi, we are not paying a fortune and he has not been playing for a while,let's temper out expectations until the lad has had an extended run in the side


Not sure anyone is saying that, but since Barnes left and with Phillips injuries we've missed someone to link up with the strikers. That said our season doesn't hinge on him performing and he needs to be given time to acclimatise to the division.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 07, 2019, 08:11:55 AM
I have to say that I am a bit concerned that Phil the Croat is having to turn up and be the next Messi, we are not paying a fortune and he has not been playing for a while,let's temper out expectations until the lad has had an extended run in the side

I am not expecting  Krovinovic to be the next Messi but he will be above the average in the Championship. His arrival is the biggest clue as to how Bilic is likely to play and it is an inescapable fact that the role he is likely to occupy is key to how the system works. The alternative at the moment looks likely to be Harper. If either thrive in the team we will have a good season if they neither do then it will be a tough season unless someone else steps up into the role of advanced play maker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 07, 2019, 09:40:35 AM
No major expectations on Filip really. I think part of the interest/excitement is that we seem to have recognised at last that we need attacking legs in our midfield. With Morrison's injury woes and incorrect contract extension last year, this part of our team has been woefully neglected for far too long.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 07, 2019, 03:13:25 PM
One of the things I picked out from Bilic's first interview is that his tactics will first and foremost suit the personel he has available. What I translate that as meaning is,  if said player can't play passing football from out from the back, then he's not going to be forced to play that way. Similarly, you could say JayRod is not a classic target man, so if Bilic wants to play with one, it will have to be HRK or another.
But in his summing-up, Bilic also strongly hinted that he prefers to play higher tempo, attacking football, so my guess is that insofar he has any influence in the transfer market, he will bring in players who can help us play that way.
I actually think our most urgent need at the moment is replacing Gayle. We need another at least 15 goals a year man. And they are extremly difficult to find inside our budget.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 08, 2019, 12:12:37 PM


                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Nyom            Bartley Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Wilson)     (Fittzwater) (O'Sea)             (Townsend)

                Livermore   Field
                (Brunt)    (    ?      )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper / ?)

Phillips               Rodreguiz                  Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)


To distill that into our immediate needs:

1 x Centre Forward 1x Wide Left attacker (i.e. left footed) 1x CM/DM the wide left forward and the midfielder needs to be of first choice calibre and the Centre Forward less so but right now they are just gaps.

In addition RB needs an upgrade on Nyom .


Now the contentious bit. I am very aware many fans don't rate Livermore,Robson-Kanu and Bartley in particular but the plain fact is they are on good contracts no other club is going to come in for them so other things being equal they will feature next season. For the most part I would hope as back ups to better and younger players but they aren't going to be replaced altogether.

Agree with all of this. The bit about Livermore, Robson-Kanu and Bartley is hard to read but true - hopefully we can get up and replace them. With the new of Rodriguez leaving, it is now two strikers required. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 08, 2019, 09:57:56 PM
In an ideal world we would get 3 forwards. 2 Centre Forwards of the target man variety and a wide left forward who might also double up as cover for the Centre Forwards at a push.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BoingFlyer on July 10, 2019, 09:43:41 AM
Think this might be worth updating with the developments of the last week

I am calling it now before a ball has been kicked but Slaven is going 4-3-3 just on the strength of the Filip Krovinovic signing.

This is what looks like at the moment first XI alternatives in brackets

                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Nyom            Bartley Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Wilson)     (Fittzwater) (O'Sea)             (Townsend)

                Livermore   Field
                (Brunt)    (    ?      )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper / ?)

Phillips               (   ?     )                 Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)


To distill that into our immeadiate needs:

1 x Centre Forward 1x Wide Left attacker (i.e. left footed) 1x CM/DM the wide left forward and the midfielder needs to be of first choice calibre and the Centre Forward less so but right now they are just gaps.

In addition RB needs an upgrade on Nyom .

Equally if anyone leaves (except a right sided wide attacker) they need to be replaced. As ever while there is tons of speculation there are no hard offers on the table so a player under contract is still an Albion player.

The advanced playmaker role is pivotal to how the system works going forward if Harper doesn't sign we will need to source a back up or better first choice option than Krovinovic.

I haven't included Rondon much as I would like to but it seems very clear that he won't be an Albion player come the end of the window the club isn't even trying to pretend otherwise.

Now the contentious bit. I am very aware many fans don't rate Livermore,Robson-Kanu and Bartley in particular but the plain fact is they are on good contracts no other club is going to come in for them so other things being equal they will feature next season. For the most part I would hope as back ups to better and younger players but they aren't going to be replaced altogehter.

I can't fault any of this logic, obviously J-Rod has now left and Nyom will probably leave.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 17, 2019, 08:52:09 AM
I though the comment from Bilic about wanting to play 2 up top was interesting and actually very surprising considering how he has lined up teams elsewhere in addition to the signing of Krovinovic who plays as an 8 or a 10, neither position features in a 442.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2019/07/14/slaven-bilic-villarreal-were-the-better-side/
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mister AT on July 17, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
I though the comment from Bilic about wanting to play 2 up top was interesting and actually very surprising considering how he has lined up teams elsewhere in addition to the signing of Krovinovic who plays as an 8 or a 10, neither position features in a 442.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2019/07/14/slaven-bilic-villarreal-were-the-better-side/

Could just be him forcing the boards hand to give him an extra 2-3 attacking options as opposed to 1-2 signings.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 17, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
Could just be him forcing the boards hand to give him an extra 2-3 attacking options as opposed to 1-2 signings.

Perhaps although he did start the match in a 442 shape by all accounts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on July 17, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
I though the comment from Bilic about wanting to play 2 up top was interesting and actually very surprising considering how he has lined up teams elsewhere in addition to the signing of Krovinovic who plays as an 8 or a 10, neither position features in a 442.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2019/07/14/slaven-bilic-villarreal-were-the-better-side/

Perhaps he's considering a diamond formation?

                Johnstone

RB      CB        Hegazi     Gibbs

                  Harper

     Phillips                    LM

               Krivonovic

                 FW  FW

SUBS: Livermore, Bartley, Brunt, Burke, Kanu, Field, Bond

Leaving 5 to bring in as starters before the 3rd.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on July 17, 2019, 10:21:19 AM
When's our next friendly? Saturday?
Unless we see some signings, I think we'll see a 2-3-1 formation.

3 of those will be out of position.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: kanu on July 17, 2019, 10:21:43 AM
Perhaps he's considering a diamond formation?

                Johnstone

RB      CB        Hegazi     Gibbs

                  Harper

     Phillips                    LM

               Krivonovic

                 FW  FW

SUBS: Livermore, Bartley, Brunt, Burke, Kanu, Field, Bond

Leaving 5 to bring in as starters before the 3rd.
Fair assessment for sure.
Definitely 4 needed for the starting line up anyway. Then 2/3/4 more on or before 5pm on the 8th August. 7 or so players in 22 days?? No problem 😂
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on July 17, 2019, 10:29:54 AM
When's our next friendly? Saturday?

Unless we see some signings, I think we'll see a 2-3-1 formation.

3 of those will be out of position.

I was just thinking the same, it's pretty hard to play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 with a six aside team.

They'd really have to work aaaaard, what's Tony Pulis up to these days anyway  ;D ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on July 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I was just thinking the same, it's pretty hard to play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 with a six aside team.

They'd really have to work aaaaard, what's Tony Pulis up to these days anyway  ;D ?
I've heard Dowling is only considering players with double barrelled names. That way we can put 11 names on the team sheet but only pay 6 wages.

When questioned, his response was; "Down there for dancing, son"  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: kanu on July 17, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
Looks like Zohore from Cardiff could be added to that line up. £8m?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 17, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
Perhaps he's considering a diamond formation?


Yeah I guess that can happen. To be successful we would need our two widest cms in the diamond to have great stamina and be adept at going forward and back (only Harper/Field currently being generous?) and our full backs need to be a bona fide threat going forward. Work to do for sure.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: StourBaggie on July 17, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
Yeah I guess that can happen. To be successful we would need our two widest cms in the diamond to have great stamina and be adept at going forward and back (only Harper/Field currently being generous?) and our full backs need to be a bona fide threat going forward. Work to do for sure.

Not against the idea of a diamond formation but they often tend to be quite narrow, whilst we have a number of players who primarily play in wide positions (Phillips, Brunt, Burke, Edwards) and are trying to sign another (Pereira).

As it looks like we'll be going into the season with a bare bones squad, we are going to have to just look at the players we have and see what formation is likely to suit best. I feel that unless we get a decent number of first-team-ready players in between now and the end of the window, Bilic is going to be limited in terms of flexibility and variation.

In my opinion, 4-2-3-1 seems most likely to fit what we have at the moment, with Krovinovic playing the 10 role behind (by the looks of it) Zohore. Two of the aforementioned wide players would be on each side, with Field and someone else (hopefully not Livermore, maybe a new signing) holding - a sot of poor-man's Mulumbu and Yacob.

                                             Johnstone

           RB               Bartley                   Hegazi              Gibbs

                               Field                       CM

                  Phillips                Krovinovic              Edwards

                                             Zohore

Subs: Bond, O'Shea, (full back), Harper, Brunt, Burke, (striker)

I have included Zohore as it appears that the deal is done pending a medical. If we were to also sign Pereira then I would assume he will start ahead of Edwards.

This leaves 4 gaps to fill:
right back (to replace Nyom, who looks to be leaving)
full-back (probably another right back if we are sticking with Townsend as Gibbs' back-up)
centre-mid
striker

All of those are areas we know we need to strengthen anyway. I have just read that we are also interested in Vincent Jansson who has never delivered at Spurs but might be a good buy in the Championship provided his wages aren't too high. Should at least be an upgrade on HRK.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 17, 2019, 09:37:59 PM
At the moment I cannot see how we go two up top and that is not a question of hiring a couple of forwards. Nothing behind the front two (whoever they are) works in a 4-4-2. The two wide midfielders are a specific beast and are not wingers in the traditional sense but wide midfielders who will come inside in support of the central two (whether that is a flat two or a diamond)

Brunt wide left perhaps and maybe Krovinovic wide right. And this leaves Burke/Phillips/Edwards/Leko competing for the 2nd striker spot behind Zohore or HRK. I cannot think of a central two combination that works either they are incapable of covering the ground required (Livermore/Barry (?!!) lack defensive awareness (Harper) or are naturally a deep sitting midfielder (Field) . I think we need another central midfielder but going 4-4-2 means we need two plus cover while disregarding  pretty much every other midfielder we have on the books which I simply don't think is going to happen. 

The imment arrival of Zohore is welcome and gives us a target man style Centre Forward that is central to any number of formations. The reported interest in Pereira would suggest we are looking at left footed wide players which would work in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 but at least we are looking at players who give us a balance we lacked for much of last season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 19, 2019, 11:14:54 AM
At the moment I cannot see how we go two up top

That's why Bilic's comment really piqued my interest.

With the imminent signings of Zohore and Ajayi but expected departure of Nyom, this leaves us looking like this:

                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

     ??            Bartley     Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Wilson)     (Fittzwater) (O'Sea)             (Townsend)

                Livermore    Ajayi
                (Brunt)    (    Field     )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper )

Phillips               Zohore                  Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)


Our immediate needs are very much a starting right back as well as maybe even cover in that area. Another striker and left-winger are also required. I've listed Ajayi as a defensive midfielder, he can play either there or centre back but we are currently stocked at centre back - I wouldn't be surprised to see a younger player leave however and Ajayi be used back there with another midfielder coming in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 19, 2019, 06:58:16 PM
Agree pretty much as I see it. At this point I am assuming that Ajayi is coming in to be the athletic part of the double pivot. He has versatility and can drop into defence but I hope the plan is to play him in midfield.

If we are looking at a 2 man midfield then we need another Central Midfielder. Without unloading Livermore in particular I cannot see us doing that. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pie on July 19, 2019, 07:12:33 PM
Agree pretty much as I see it. At this point I am assuming that Ajayi is coming in to be the athletic part of the double pivot. He has versatility and can drop into defence but I hope the plan is to play him in midfield.

If we are looking at a 2 man midfield then we need another Central Midfielder. Without unloading Livermore in particular I cannot see us doing that.

If we try 3 at the back Ajayi looks like the ideal player to step into midfield when we have the ball.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on July 19, 2019, 07:26:08 PM
The below assumes Bilic isn't stupid and we're playing 4231. And also that Ajayi is coming in as a defensive mid, rather than centre back where he would worry me a bit.

Centre mid is still broken for me. Don't want Livermore or Brunt starting there. Harper is too poor defensively to play in a two. Field I don't think is good enough to start for a team pushing for promotion, but may be the best option as it stands to partner Ajayi in the pivot.

Starting:         Ajayi - Field
                       Krovinovic

Back up:  Livermore - Brunt
                          Harper

I just don't see enough quality in the options there.

Edit - Just had a thought, but would rely on more of a 433 and Phillips staying fit:

      Ajayi
Phillips Krovinovic

There's a bit of everything in that midfield. But then we'd have 4 back up centre mids and would need 2 new wingers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on July 19, 2019, 08:07:24 PM
The below assumes Bilic isn't stupid and we're playing 4231.

I'd imagine Bilic will decide on his formation once it is clearer what players he has to pick from. With such a small squad and with so much unpredictability in the market and with injuries its impossible to read too much into anything at this point.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 19, 2019, 08:44:02 PM
Ajayi          Brunt


    Krovinovic
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 19, 2019, 08:58:31 PM
I don't know enough about Ajayi to judge his merits as a CB or DM ...do any of us ?

Gut feeling, start the season with him in CB (if Hegazi is still here he needs a couple of weeks off and then a mini pre-season so he won't be ready for 1st game.)

 

     Harper             Field

             Krovinovic

We need to evolve, both with new signings and our own products. Younger legs. It can always be shelved for a while if it doesn't work in the first 3 or 4 games but give it a chance. It's not like there's anyone so good that they can't be left out.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on July 23, 2019, 01:04:46 AM
I thought I would put out my best team as it stands.


                  Bond

New rb  Semi  Hegazi Gibbs

              Field Harper

Phillips  krovonovic Edwards

              Big ken

Subs Johnstone Bartley Townsend brunt Livermore Burke HRK

So we need a striker to compete with big ken and further demote HRK, and arguably another wide left forward hence why we're after that lad from sporting.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on July 23, 2019, 01:06:19 AM
I thought I would put out my best team as it stands.


                  Bond

New rb  Semi  Hegazi Gibbs

              Field Harper

Phillips  krovonovic Edwards

              Big ken

Subs Johnstone Bartley Townsend brunt Livermore Burke HRK

So we need a striker to compete with big ken and further demote HRK, and arguably another wide left forward hence why we're after that lad from sporting.

Or alternatively semi in cm with field or Harper and Bartley or a new cb.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on July 23, 2019, 09:30:44 AM
With the type of player that Bilic is recruiting I would think that the midfield will be a lot quicker and more dynamic than we've seen for a while with a couple of pacey wingers at the front.
I'm starting to look forward to the first game now  :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on July 23, 2019, 10:26:19 PM
Hoping to see something like this

                                                 Johnstone

Furlong.                 Holgate.                  Hegazi.       Gibbs

                                    Ajeyi.                 Sawyers

                                              Krovonovic

           Phillips.                                                 Perreira

                                            Zohore

Subs. Bond. Bartley. Livermore. Harper. Burke. Edwards. New striker

Squad players. O Shea. Townsend. Field. Brunt. Hrk. Another midfielder

Send out on loan. Wilson. Melbourne. Fitzwater. Tulloch. Soule. Leko
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 23, 2019, 11:22:44 PM
Pre season friendlies so far giving us some positive signs that Krovinovic will be a key man and that Bilic will try some different formations rather than being tied to a 442.

We clearly need more forward options though as Zohore and Burke do not have enough goals in them.

Totally agree with Graka's view of the players who need to go out. One of the things I will judge this window on will be the outgoings. So many players in the 18-21 age bracket at the club are crying out for a loan move for 5 to 12 months. Leko is the most obvious, but the likes of Tulloch, Soule and even Field can't be far behind.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 25, 2019, 05:59:02 PM
                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Furlong             Bartley  Hegazi                     Gibbs
(Ferguson)       (Fittzwater) (O'Shea)           (Townsend)

                     Livermore   Ajayi.
                     (Brunt)    ( Field  )

                       Krovinovic
                        (Harper / ?)

Phillips               Zohore                Robson-Kanu

(Edwards)          (   ?     )                      (   ?    )                       
(Burke)                                             
(Leko)

Thought I would revist this in the light of a few developments. Firstly Furlong's arrival and Nyom's departure has tidied up the right back position. Although it is interesting to note that Ferguson seems to be ahead of Wilson in the pecking order albeit that is only on the strength of a couple of pre season friendlies. It would also seem O'Shea is in Bilic's plans less so
Fitzwater.

Without wishing to comment in detail here on the ongoing transfer activity but plainly there are more deals in the pipeline some of which will add clarity to the role that Ajayi has been bought in to do. Obviously with Hegazi out he may start the season in the back 4.

With regard to the youngsters I agree that some will benefit from loan spells but I would looking at the younger players going out e.g. Tulloch and Soule. However I am not sure what the point of loaning out Fitzwater and Field out would serve. If they are good enough to be starting in League One then they are good enough to be back up for us. If they aren't or we don't think they will be good enough now is the point that we need to let them go.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 25, 2019, 09:29:11 PM
Listening to Ajeyi in various interviews, he has referenced clean sheets and preferring to play at the back - I think he has been signed to play there whilst providing cover in midfield. The likely signing of Sawyers further closes the options for Ajeyi to play in midfield.

Sawyers himself will be interesting, he is an excellent passer of the ball, will he play deep as the creative one of the two or further forward as a number ten, or even as one of two eights ahead of a holding player? I guess what our signings have done is give us flexibility.

Left winger and centre forward still priorities. Interesting that we haven't made a big domestic loan signing ala Barnes for us last year or Wilson who was at Derby for example.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on July 25, 2019, 09:44:20 PM
If sawyers signs you’d imagine something like;

            Johnstone
Furlong Ajayi hegazi Gibbs
     Livermore Sawyers
           Krovinovic
Phillips              Edwards
            Zohore
We desperately need a left winger in my opinion. Then a striker and right back to compete the current starters. Maybe a centre back and additional striker on loan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 25, 2019, 09:55:04 PM
If sawyers signs you’d imagine something like;

            Johnstone
Furlong Ajayi hegazi Gibbs
     Livermore Sawyers
           Krovinovic
Phillips              Edwards
            Zohore
We desperately need a left winger in my opinion. Then a striker and right back to compete the current starters. Maybe a centre back and additional striker on loan.

That's starting to look half decent,  but I hope Harper and Field don't get frozen out though. But we must get a regular goalscorer up top. Maybe Zohore will regain a bit of his best form, but when you think how many goals Gayle and JayRod scored, there's quite a shortfall to make up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on July 25, 2019, 10:00:27 PM
If sawyers signs you’d imagine something like;

            Johnstone
Furlong Ajayi hegazi Gibbs
     Livermore Sawyers
           Krovinovic
Phillips              Edwards
            Zohore
We desperately need a left winger in my opinion. Then a striker and right back to compete the current starters. Maybe a centre back and additional striker on loan.

I don't think we could get away with that midfield. Everything I've seen from Krovinovic suggests he's going to be in and around the opposition box. Sawyers is like a centre mid version of Berbatov, quality on the ball but not the sort who is going to be running round and making tackles. To play them both together I think we'd need Ajayi in the midfield and a good centre back next to Hegazi. Otherwise Livermore would need to turn into Kante.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on July 25, 2019, 10:00:46 PM
That's starting to look half decent,  but I hope Harper and Field don't get frozen out though. But we must get a regular goalscorer up top. Maybe Zohore will regain a bit of his best form, but when you think how many goals Gayle and JayRod scored, there's quite a shortfall to make up.

With Sawyers looking likely I think we'll see one of the CM's moved on. My guess will be Field who just doesn't look good enough for me. We may even see someone daft enough to take Livermore off our hands.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 25, 2019, 10:22:02 PM
We are just as likely to see

Sawyers         Field

        Krovinovic

If Field goes anywhere, it'll be on loan. Our transfer policy seems to be filling in that gap of 23 - 28 year olds. If Field isn't going to play he must go out on loan this year.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 25, 2019, 10:24:51 PM
I think Field MUST go on loan now. We are likely bringing Barry back on a free as well so a spell on loan in league 1 wouldn't hurt at all.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 25, 2019, 10:31:02 PM
I hope that Harper is not being pushed too far back down the pecking order. Obvioulsy Billic sat down with him and gave him some sort of serious commitment, so it would be a slap in the face if he then got frozen out. After all, there is some serious potential there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been linked with the clubs he has been.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 26, 2019, 02:00:54 AM
I think Field MUST go on loan now. We are likely bringing Barry back on a free as well so a spell on loan in league 1 wouldn't hurt at all.

I think bringing Barry back would be a hugely regressive step. Central midfield would have the following personnel

Livermore, Barry, Brunt (yes I know but that is where has been playing lately) Field, Harper, Sawyers and Krovinovic. This also presupposes that Ajayi is coming in as a CB which I think is case.

Livermore/Barry/Brunt/Field contest the anchor role in the double pivot. The box to box role in the pivot would be either Harper or Sawyers with Krovinovic as advanced play maker with Sawyers and Harper providing cover.

If Field isn't seen as good enough to be first change in the anchor role behind Livermore and Bilic won't trust him as such then we have come to the end of the line. Regardless of what I think of the player which is generally positive there is nothing that a spell in League One is going to fix and a parting of the ways is probably best for all concerned.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: kie the baggie on July 26, 2019, 03:01:45 AM
Harper will be a starter in my opinion else he wouldn't have signed.

                                                  Johnstone
                                 
                                Furlong     Holgate     Hegazi    Gibbs

                                                      Ajeyi
                                        Harper                Sawyers

                                                   Krovinovic

                                          Phillips              Zohore
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 26, 2019, 06:41:54 AM
I think bringing Barry back would be a hugely regressive step. Central midfield would have the following personnel

Livermore, Barry, Brunt (yes I know but that is where has been playing lately) Field, Harper, Sawyers and Krovinovic. This also presupposes that Ajayi is coming in as a CB which I think is case.

Livermore/Barry/Brunt/Field contest the anchor role in the double pivot. The box to box role in the pivot would be either Harper or Sawyers with Krovinovic as advanced play maker with Sawyers and Harper providing cover.

If Field isn't seen as good enough to be first change in the anchor role behind Livermore and Bilic won't trust him as such then we have come to the end of the line. Regardless of what I think of the player which is generally positive there is nothing that a spell in League One is going to fix and a parting of the ways is probably best for all concerned.
Re the spell in league one for Field, it would potentially give him a lot of experience of senior football and life away from Albion in a different environment. It could benefit him quite a bit and he can start next season as a 22 year old with a years league football under his belt.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 26, 2019, 09:12:02 AM
I wonder whether we could see Krovinovic playing further forward than we expect, something like this (not that Livermore would be my choice):

                                                                           Livermore
                                                                   
                                                                     Harper           Sawyers


                                                Phillips                                                        Krovinovic
                                                                                Zohore

A positive of our transfer dealings has definitely been signing players capable of playing more than one role - it allows for greater flexibility game by game and within each game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mister AT on July 26, 2019, 10:20:06 AM
The one thing our summer recruitment (I'm going to include Sawyers) is that our midfield has a more rounded feel to it and we have some players in there now who look like they can play ball.

For the last few years our midfield has been the main problem and we have just stumbled along.

Ajayi
Harper
Field
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Along with
Livermore
Brunt
Possibly Barry

Gives us a more athletic look to it and players who we can look to play through.


At the moment I would probably go with

Johnstone

Furlong
O'Shea
Bartley (until Hegazi returns)
Gibbs

Ajayi
one from Brunt, Field, Harper, Livermore

Phillips
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Zohore

Or we could even look to use Sawyers in a deeper role next to Ajayi, and put Edwards on the wing with Filip coming into the '10' role.

If we can get another striker in now, a poacher type striker, it gives us good options going forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on July 26, 2019, 10:46:05 AM
Not slagging him off here, I like the signing, but I don't think Zohore can play the lone striker. As big as he is, he's no target man as he is not particularly good in the air. Will work much better with another striker alongside him so think we will see two up top. Believe Slaven has even said as much.
We will definitely see another, more potent, striker come in. Think HRK, but thinner, faster, better on the ball, doesn't fall over as much, gives a shoite and actually contributes with goals and we'll be onto something.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on July 26, 2019, 10:49:56 AM
The one thing our summer recruitment (I'm going to include Sawyers) is that our midfield has a more rounded feel to it and we have some players in there now who look like they can play ball.

For the last few years our midfield has been the main problem and we have just stumbled along.

Ajayi
Harper
Field
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Along with
Livermore
Brunt
Possibly Barry

Gives us a more athletic look to it and players who we can look to play through.


At the moment I would probably go with

Johnstone

Furlong
O'Shea
Bartley (until Hegazi returns)
Gibbs

Ajayi
one from Brunt, Field, Harper, Livermore

Phillips
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Zohore

Or we could even look to use Sawyers in a deeper role next to Ajayi, and put Edwards on the wing with Filip coming into the '10' role.

If we can get another striker in now, a poacher type striker, it gives us good options going forward.

We  seem to have more "legs" in Midfield than we did last year.

My midfield would be to have Ajayi as the holding midfield player, Edwards and Phillips on the wings,Krovinovic playing just behind the striker and Sawyers being the box to box midfield player.

This season we will also have a sub bench with much more options on it.  Last year the sub bench didn't really give us many options.

I think the side this year is showing more promise than last year. Last season the midfield were too slow and static, Jrod disappointed for a so called prem striker. 

We just need to get another Gayle
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mr Cynical on July 26, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
No matter which way you look at it... without the addition of a 20+ goal striker we are not going to make an impression on the playoffs.  The team needs to be aiming at 80 goals as a minimum.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on July 26, 2019, 01:16:01 PM
I am not concerned with the forward position at this point in time if we are going to bring in a prolific player he is not going to be a purchase but will be a loaner and the loans will not be available until the end of the window.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mister AT on July 26, 2019, 10:43:34 PM
Bilic just confirmed Sawyers is done. Also said he wants 3/4 more players.

I would imagine we will probably get 3 in, possibly all loans.

Striker
Defender
Winger.

Still think we might go back for Reece Oxford.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on July 26, 2019, 11:07:21 PM
Bilic just confirmed Sawyers is done. Also said he wants 3/4 more players.

I would imagine we will probably get 3 in, possibly all loans.

Striker
Defender
Winger.

Still think we might go back for Reece Oxford.

Vydra (loan)
Roofe (buy)
Oxford (buy) or Chamolah (loan)
Winger from Lisbon (loan)

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: VANDERLEI on July 26, 2019, 11:19:31 PM
Now we have signed Sawyers, Vydra could be a great option to run on and finish those through balls. I would like to see us go in for Diedhou, I think the fact he hasn't gone anywhere else means that Brizzle will drop their asking price in the next week or 2. He'd be a menace with the players we've already bought in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on July 26, 2019, 11:47:49 PM
Now we have signed Sawyers, Vydra could be a great option to run on and finish those through balls. I would like to see us go in for Diedhou, I think the fact he hasn't gone anywhere else means that Brizzle will drop their asking price in the next week or 2. He'd be a menace with the players we've already bought in.

That’s a very good shout.  Buy Diedhou and get Vydra on loan. Those 2, along with Zohore and HRK, would guarantee goals.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 27, 2019, 12:45:30 AM
I just cannot see us playing 2 up top and as such I doubt we will be going for a secondary striker like Vydra.

The problem is getting two up top and 3 in midfield without either reverting to a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-3 with the second striker playing as a wide forward sometimes this works but often it doesn't. A 4-4-2 does not work with the midfielders we have or the wingers we have for that matter or even the winger we are trying to sign from Sporting.

From Bilic's comments I think Ajayi has been signed as a Centre Back which takes him out of the likely midfield configeration.

Without additional signings the  starting XI looks like this with back up options in brackets

                     Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Furlong             Bartley   Ajayi                    Gibbs
(Ferguson)       (Hegazi*) (O'Shea)          (Townsend)

                     Livermore  Sawyers
                     (Brunt*)    ( Field  )

                              Krovinovic
                               (Harper)

         Phillips               Zohore                    Edwards
         (Leko)                 (Burke)                (Robson-Kanu*) 


* Not available for the opening game against Forest.

In terms of additions I think another striker and a left footed wide player are the top priorities. I would like an athletic and dynamic central midfielder to replace Livermore in the starting line up.                   

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on July 27, 2019, 01:04:22 AM
I just cannot see us playing 2 up top and as such I doubt we will be going for a secondary striker like Vydra.

The problem is getting two up top and 3 in midfield without either reverting to a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-3 with the second striker playing as a wide forward sometimes this works but often it doesn't. A 4-4-2 does not work with the midfielders we have or the wingers we have for that matter or even the winger we are trying to sign from Sporting.

From Bilic's comments I think Ajayi has been signed as a Centre Back which takes him out of the likely midfield configeration.

Without additional signings the  starting XI looks like this with back up options in brackets

                     Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Furlong             Bartley   Ajayi                    Gibbs
(Ferguson)       (Hegazi*) (O'Shea)          (Townsend)

                     Livermore  Sawyers
                     (Brunt*)    ( Field  )

                              Krovinovic
                               (Harper)

         Phillips               Zohore                    Edwards
         (Leko)                 (Burke)                (Robson-Kanu*) 


* Not available for the opening game against Forest.

In terms of additions I think another striker and a left footed wide player are the top priorities. I would like an athletic and dynamic central midfielder to replace Livermore in the starting line up.                 


my team would be (presuming sawyers signs...and when Hegazi is fit.)

             Johnstone

Furlong Ajayi Hegazi Gibbs

         Field Sawyers

Phillips Krovo Edwards/Burke
     
            Big Ken


if we sign another striker or winger things may well change
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 27, 2019, 07:13:08 AM

In terms of additions I think another striker and a left footed wide player are the top priorities. I would like an athletic and dynamic central midfielder to replace Livermore in the starting line up.                 

Agree with this, I would expect a loan signing at the back so that we can loan out maybe Ferguson/O'Shea and sell Fitzwater.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tylerm on July 28, 2019, 06:21:31 PM

my team would be (presuming sawyers signs...and when Hegazi is fit.)

             Johnstone

Furlong Ajayi Hegazi Gibbs

         Field Sawyers


Phillips Krovo Edwards/Burke
     
            Big Ken


if we sign another striker or winger things may well change

Just read that Bilic preference is to play 4231 and then looked again at this thread. With the players we now have I think we are shaping up well to do this.
Back 4 probably looks after itself when Hegazi is fit and I do think Bartley will be part of it
Holding 2 will be Livermore and Ajayi
Phillips Krovo and Sawyers next 3
Big Ken up top.
We already have strength on the bench but we need another striker desperately
Ollie Burke will be s big player for us this year if he is given a good run. Probably his last chance anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 28, 2019, 06:32:25 PM
When the business is concluded and suspensions are out of the way I'd hope we go:


Johnstone (because it's inevitable)


Furlong
Ajayi
Hegazi
Gibbs


Sawyers
Brunt


Phillips
Krovinovic
New left footed winger/wide forward (Edwards/Burke)


Zohore/New striker
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on July 28, 2019, 07:19:17 PM
When the business is concluded and suspensions are out of the way I'd hope we go:


Johnstone (because it's inevitable)


Furlong
Ajayi
Hegazi
Gibbs


Sawyers
Brunt


Phillips
Krovinovic
New left footed winger/wide forward (Edwards/Burke)


Zohore/New striker

Personally I'd want at least 1 midfielder who can tackle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on July 28, 2019, 07:39:06 PM
Personally I'd want at least 1 midfielder who can tackle.

Agreed. You’d have to have one of Livermore, Field or Barry if he signs.

I’d go Field.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: maccbaggie on July 28, 2019, 08:51:31 PM
Agreed. You’d have to have one of Livermore, Field or Barry if he signs.

I’d go Field.
Or play Ajayi in his best position - midfield.

I think a central midfield of:

        Sawyers   Ajayi
            Krovinovic

Would provide the best balance. Ajayi as the ball winner, Sawyers in the box to box role he played last season (linking the defence and attack), and Krovinovic supporting the striker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: glosterbaggie on July 28, 2019, 09:41:30 PM
Or play Ajayi in his best position - midfield.

I think a central midfield of:

        Sawyers   Ajayi
            Krovinovic

Would provide the best balance. Ajayi as the ball winner, Sawyers in the box to box role he played last season (linking the defence and attack), and Krovinovic supporting the striker.
Sounds good. A good mix and balance there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 28, 2019, 10:09:59 PM
Or play Ajayi in his best position - midfield.

I think a central midfield of:

        Sawyers   Ajayi
            Krovinovic

Would provide the best balance. Ajayi as the ball winner, Sawyers in the box to box role he played last season (linking the defence and attack), and Krovinovic supporting the striker.
In his own words this week, he sees himself as a defender who can also play in midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 05, 2019, 11:05:41 AM
It is a long season but Saturday gave us an insight into what our blueprint may be:

System - 4231.
We played a double pivot of a play maker (Sawyers) and a ball winner (Livermore). Out wide we play bona fide wide players as opposed to a wide player who may drift in centrally and we played a central number 10 (Krovinovic).

Tactics - possession based on the ball with a high press off the ball.
With Sawyers as a playmaker in that pivot, it means we had someone to dictate the tempo. In addition to this with Krovinovic in the 10 position it gave us even more control over the football. Our centre forward (Zohore) operated as a target man tasked with linking the play, which also points to being a possession based side.
Off the ball we pressed high; Krovinovic joined Zohore in pressing the opposing centre back and our wide players pressed the opposition full backs. One of Sawyers and Livermore would also press the opposition midfield in their half too whilst our full backs got tight to the opposition wide players in midfield. When we did not win back the ball however, we were happy to sit off; it was not a deep block but we did not play a particularly high line either.

Personnel

I have listed the positions below based on this system and the profile of what is required playing this way and have suggested who may be suited to that position in brackets. This should highlight any gaps in the squad:

Keeper - Standard keeper, whilst we press high we don't retain a particularly high line when the opposition has possession so expert sweeper keeper abilities are not required. (Johnstone, Bond)

Right back - Required to be athletic with the ability to get up and down to enable us to press aggressively. Not required to be overly attacking. Bonus if they are proficient at defending the back post from crosses as with our full backs pressing high, there will be space in behind. (Ferguson, Furlong, Ajeyi)
Left back - Required to be athletic with the ability to get up and down to enable us to press aggressively. Not required to be overly attacking. Bonus if they are proficient at defending the back post from crosses as with our full backs pressing high, there will be space in behind. (Gibbs, Townsend)
Centre backs - Required to be athletic as gaps will appear either side with our full backs pressing aggressively. The ability to step out and intercept ahead of a forward will be beneficial to aid our aggressive press. As ever in the Championship, being commanding aerially is required. No particular abilities playing the ball are required as there is a double pivot to feed, one of which being a play maker who will be comfortable on the ball. (Ajeyi, Bartley, Hegazi, O'Shea, Fitzwater)

Ball winner - An important role as with our press, we will be susceptible to the counter if a team beats the press so somebody mobile and adept at tackling is required. Positioning and awareness are key to be able to sniff out the danger. On the ball they will just be required to recycle possession and give the ball to the play maker generally. (Livermore, Field, Ajayi, Harper)
Playmaker - The person that will dictate the tempo, an appreciation of when to force the issue and when to keep possession. They must be able to play through the lines and have the ability to switch the play when required. (Sawyers, Brunt, Field)

Right winger - An ability to beat a man and provide a telling contribution in the final third, be it an assist or a goal. They will need to possess good pace. (Phillips, Edwards, Leko, Burke, Robson-Kanu)
Number 10 - Someone that has the ability to pick up the ball on the half turn in dangerous positions and either feed the forward and wingers or drive at the defence themselves. A good understanding with the play maker will become important. They will also have to work hard off the ball, joining the forward to initiate the press whilst dropping onto the opposition's deepest central midfielder when we have men behind the ball. (Krovinovic, Harper, Edwards)
Left winger - An ability to beat a man and provide a telling contribution in the final third, be it an assist or a goal. They will need to possess good pace. (Edwards, Phillips, Leko, Burke, Robson-Kanu)

Centre Forward - A target man, someone who can hold up the ball and bring others into play. Will need to play centrally generally as the wide players will occupy the wide areas much of the time. They will need to have an understanding of when to initiate the press. (Zohore, Robson-Kanu, Burke)

Obviously we will play different systems and tactics throughout the season but this is based on Saturday. Areas for concern for me are the ball winning midfielder, whilst I don't think Livermore is quite as bad as others do, I question his mobility for that role and am unsure whether Field or Harper are up to it. Based on what we have heard, Ajeyi made be but as mentioned elsewhere, he seems to be predominantly a centre back judging by interviews. I also have concerns about the quality in wide areas, I am not convinced that Leko, Burke or Robson-Kanu will produce enough throughout the season and don't have great confidence in Phillps staying fit. Finally a centre forward will be required as Burke still doesn't quite seem a natural fit and we know Robson-Kanu's limitations although he may suit this style better than last couple of seasons.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 08, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
seems about the time to revive this thread.. based who we have now my team is:

                 Bond

Ferguson Semi Bartley Gibbs

     Sawyers Livermore

Phillips Krovonovic Edwards
            Austin


Long term i dont like johnstone in goal but i imagine he will get the nod until billic has seen more of him.
 Furlong may well come in at rb, but short term ferguson deserves to keep his shirt
hegazi will come in long term for bartley.
i wanted field to be in the side over livermore but now hes gone i guess hes there as a combative element.
edwards deserves to keep the shirt, as does phillips but the 2 new wingers will really keep them on their toes, Zohore i didnt think did too bad v forest however not sure we can afford to leave a goal scorer out the side long term
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 08, 2019, 08:50:40 PM
 With the window closing we know with the exemption of maybe the odd free agent signing or overseas departure what the squad looks like

                        Johnstone
                          (Bond)

Furlong             Ajayi      Hegazi                Gibbs
(Ferguson)       (Bartley) (O'Shea)           (Townsend)

                     Livermore   Sawyers.
                       (Ajayi)       (Brunt)     

                           Krovinovic
                            (Harper)

Phillips               Austin               Pereira
(Edwards)          (Zohore)           (Diangana)                               
(Willock)          (Robson-Kanu)                    _                           
(Burke)

With departure of Field we lose a bit of cover in the double pivot other wise we have at least 2 players for each position in a
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Still not completely convinced that we have a 4-4-2.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on August 08, 2019, 09:58:34 PM
Good challenge for places.
Keeps all on their mettle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 17, 2019, 08:41:41 AM
I'd be keen to see more of a 433 with Sawyers sitting and Harper and Krovinovic in more advanced positions and i do think this is something Bilic has done in the past. It'd be a risk because Sawyers has amazing composure on the ball but i'm not sure how he is going into tackles.

In front of those 3 you could go Pereira/Diangana, Austin and Phillips/Edwards.

We'd be potent going forward, hopefully more clinical in the box though i'm not sure how well we'd do defensively in open play.

Of course, there's always 442 which Bilic mentioned in pre-season where we could see a 4 across the middle of Pereira/Diangana, Sawyers, Krov, Phillips/Edwards and then Austin and Zohore starting.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on August 17, 2019, 10:45:41 AM
I think we could see Bilic going with something like this:

                    Johnstone

Furlong     Bartley     Hegazi      Gibbs

            Sawyers      Krovinovic

Diangana         Phillips           Perreira

                       Austin


We have so many options in terms of personnel and formation though, nice problem for Slaven to have.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 17, 2019, 10:47:03 AM
have i missed that Hegazi is fit again ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MICKYMEL on August 17, 2019, 10:49:02 AM
I think we could see Bilic going with something like this:

                    Johnstone

Furlong     Bartley     Hegazi      Gibbs

            Sawyers      Krovinovic

Diangana         Phillips           Perreira

                       Austin


We have so many options in terms of personnel and formation though, nice problem for Slaven to have.

No semi ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 17, 2019, 10:55:14 AM
After a couple of frustrating performances against Millwall there are some interesting debates about various combinations and possibilities within the squad on the matchday forums and individual player threads. Given that we have at least 2 credible choices in every position then there are plenty of options for Bilic to consider.

The problem against Millwall was a lack of penetration against a well drilled side who set up to stifle our forwards. Looking at the League game we had 78% possession but managed just 11 shots which is way too low given that level of possession. It gets worse in that most of the shots were from outside the box and the total expected goals they generated was 0.9. Aside from the Zohore shot which given that there were 10 others probably wasn't more than 0.5 exG there were very few clear cut chances that went begging.

Many were quick to blame Zohore and in truth he did not have a good game although that was not because of the one chance he did not take but the lack of involvement in a game that was largely played out in the opposition half. However goal scoring is not just about the forwards it is about the number of shooting opportunities that at team generates. Taking the extreme example of Man City they create a huge number of high quality chances and as such any half competent professional striker would score goals for them. If you doubt me let me submit exhibit 1 Iheanacho, I rest my case.

What is the issue is it tactics or personnel? Maybe a little of both and the issue of a new team gelling.

Looking at the personnel you could easily argue that Austin is an obvious upgrade on Zohore but that isn't the whole solution unless you can argue that Austin takes the Zohore chance nearly 100% of the time which is wishful thinking. We needed to create more chances and that falls on the shoulders of the 3 playing behind the lone striker. Incidentally, these positions regardless of who is in them also need to probably chip in with between 30 and 40 goals across the season.

There is some criticism of Krovinovic and a debate about whether he and Sawyers can play in the same team. On Saturday he needed to play further forward too much of his work happened 30 to 40 yards from goal but equally those playing with him should have been giving him better passing options while Zohore was the main culprit here both Edwards and Phillips could have done a little better in this respect. Some of this is just a team getting used to playing with each other but  it is about having the footballing intelligence to anticipate rather than react I have my doubts about Phillips in this regard but that is a relatively small issue at the moment.

A key advantage of Krovinovic working 5 to 10 yards further forward is that it brings him into shooting range as demonstrated by the disallowed goal. I am not expecting him to score too frequently from that range but the fact there is a shot threat forces the opposition defenders to come out of their shape without it they can just block off the passing lanes. I would also suggest that this applies to Edwards and Phillips a few more pot shots from distance would have started to sow the seeds of doubt among the Millwall back line.

I have seen the suggestion that we go "full Mowbray" and do without a DM in the double pivot. I think this is a possibility against a team like Millwall who defend deep. In possession (78% of the time) drop Ferguson into a back 3. Use Gibbs as auxiliary winger and play Pereira/Diangana/Willock as a slightly withdrawn striker behind Austin /Zohore.

Finally the one combination that I don't think works is Edwards and Phillips in the wide roles the absence of a natural left footer does nothing for the teams balance of the team and Bilic needs to choose one or the other and give Pereira or Diagana the opposite flank.

All that said I remain optimistic about the season and would stress that these observations are largely based on our struggles against a deep block and for instance Luton today won't present the same challenge,



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: miggybaggy on August 17, 2019, 11:26:15 AM
After a couple of frustrating performances against Millwall there are some interesting debates about various combinations and possibilities within the squad on the matchday forums and individual player threads. Given that we have at least 2 credible choices in every position then there are plenty of options for Bilic to consider.

The problem against Millwall was a lack of penetration against a well drilled side who set up to stifle our forwards. Looking at the League game we had 78% possession but managed just 11 shots which is way too low given that level of possession. It gets worse in that most of the shots were from outside the box and the total expected goals they generated was 0.9. Aside from the Zohore shot which given that there were 10 others probably wasn't more than 0.5 exG there were very few clear cut chances that went begging.

Many were quick to blame Zohore and in truth he did not have a good game although that was not because of the one chance he did not take but the lack of involvement in a game that was largely played out in the opposition half. However goal scoring is not just about the forwards it is about the number of shooting opportunities that at team generates. Taking the extreme example of Man City they create a huge number of high quality chances and as such any half competent professional striker would score goals for them. If you doubt me let me submit exhibit 1 Iheanacho, I rest my case.

What is the issue is it tactics or personnel? Maybe a little of both and the issue of a new team gelling.

Looking at the personnel you could easily argue that Austin is an obvious upgrade on Zohore but that isn't the whole solution unless you can argue that Austin takes the Zohore chance nearly 100% of the time which is wishful thinking. We needed to create more chances and that falls on the shoulders of the 3 playing behind the lone striker. Incidentally, these positions regardless of who is in them also need to probably chip in with between 30 and 40 goals across the season.

There is some criticism of Krovinovic and a debate about whether he and Sawyers can play in the same team. On Saturday he needed to play further forward too much of his work happened 30 to 40 yards from goal but equally those playing with him should have been giving him better passing options while Zohore was the main culprit here both Edwards and Phillips could have done a little better in this respect. Some of this is just a team getting used to playing with each other but  it is about having the footballing intelligence to anticipate rather than react I have my doubts about Phillips in this regard but that is a relatively small issue at the moment.

A key advantage of Krovinovic working 5 to 10 yards further forward is that it brings him into shooting range as demonstrated by the disallowed goal. I am not expecting him to score too frequently from that range but the fact there is a shot threat forces the opposition defenders to come out of their shape without it they can just block off the passing lanes. I would also suggest that this applies to Edwards and Phillips a few more pot shots from distance would have started to sow the seeds of doubt among the Millwall back line.

I have seen the suggestion that we go "full Mowbray" and do without a DM in the double pivot. I think this is a possibility against a team like Millwall who defend deep. In possession (78% of the time) drop Ferguson into a back 3. Use Gibbs as auxiliary winger and play Pereira/Diangana/Willock as a slightly withdrawn striker behind Austin /Zohore.

Finally the one combination that I don't think works is Edwards and Phillips in the wide roles the absence of a natural left footer does nothing for the teams balance of the team and Bilic needs to choose one or the other and give Pereira or Diagana the opposite flank.

All that said I remain optimistic about the season and would stress that these observations are largely based on our struggles against a deep block and for instance Luton today won't present the same challenge,


Interesting and thought provoking comments....I just wonder if Edwards could occupy more of a central No.10 type role and have Diangana out wide?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 17, 2019, 11:52:29 AM
as always Stan puts together a well written and logical view, one thing that the piece doesn't address though is, that Millwall implemented their tactics very, very well and the players and coaches of Millwall deserve credit for this.
Yes we have to find ways to address this, but once the whistle blows the lads on the pitch have to be able to adapt actively, we need to break free from the coaches pre-defined tactics if we are being nullified, I really hope that this will come as the "flair" players settle in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on August 17, 2019, 02:09:33 PM
Finally the one combination that I don't think works is Edwards and Phillips in the wide roles the absence of a natural left footer does nothing for the teams balance of the team and Bilic needs to choose one or the other and give Pereira or Diagana the opposite flank.

Good post, but I've seen you make the above point a few times and I just don't think it's the case. Or at least it's nowhere near as big an issue as you make out.

Norwich won the league last season with 2 right-footed wingers in Buendia and Hernandez. Villa won the play offs with Adomah and El Ghazi. Chelsea won the PL with Hazard and Willian. Barca currently have 3 left footed wide players in Messi, Griezmann and Dembele. Benrahma and Watkins at Brentford. Clubs that play 433/4231 off the top of my head.

It doesn't matter the level, you play your best 2 wingers. Edwards is a left winger, always has been. Phillips is a right winger. But with the amount of wingers we have this season we can chop and change as needed, swap sides during the game etc.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 17, 2019, 10:01:20 PM
Think Phillips and Diangana are now the preferred 2 until one has an off day. I expect Pereira to be a big player when he gets up to speed. Game time for Edwards and Willock (a strange signing) will be very limited.


Pleasing step in the right direction today with Burke and Kanu omitted from the 18.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OldburyWBA on August 17, 2019, 10:29:03 PM
Think Phillips and Diangana are now the preferred 2 until one has an off day. I expect Pereira to be a big player when he gets up to speed. Game time for Edwards and Willock (a strange signing) will be very limited.


Pleasing step in the right direction today with Burke and Kanu omitted from the 18.

Kanu injured at the mo. Had a back injury before the game against Millwall midweek , still not recovered.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on August 17, 2019, 10:31:00 PM

                    Johnstone

Furlong     Bartley     Hegazi      Gibbs

            Sawyers      Krovinovic

Diangana         Phillips           Perreira

                       Austin


No semi ?

Depends. I expect Krov, Semi, Phillips, Diangana and Perriera to be swapped in and out of the team and interchange positions depending on the opposition. I do think this may prove to be our best line-up, though you could argue Semi should start instead of Bartley.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 18, 2019, 12:49:53 AM
as always Stan puts together a well written and logical view, one thing that the piece doesn't address though is, that Millwall implemented their tactics very, very well and the players and coaches of Millwall deserve credit for this.
Yes we have to find ways to address this, but once the whistle blows the lads on the pitch have to be able to adapt actively, we need to break free from the coaches pre-defined tactics if we are being nullified, I really hope that this will come as the "flair" players settle in.

Couple of points in football it is seldom one team wholly succeeds or fails. Millwall did what they did very well they smothered our forwards and from a tactical perspective if there are lessons to learn they are of limited value until another team visits the Hawthorns with the same game plan. If that team lacks Millwall's discipline it might be a question of them failing rather than us succeeding.

All coaches will tell you that whatever their tactics or their game plan it is only as good as how their players perform in the moment the point of tactics and team shape is to give our players the best chance of succeeding in the moment.

Good post, but I've seen you make the above point a few times and I just don't think it's the case. Or at least it's nowhere near as big an issue as you make out.

Norwich won the league last season with 2 right-footed wingers in Buendia and Hernandez. Villa won the play offs with Adomah and El Ghazi. Chelsea won the PL with Hazard and Willian. Barca currently have 3 left footed wide players in Messi, Griezmann and Dembele. Benrahma and Watkins at Brentford. Clubs that play 433/4231 off the top of my head.

It doesn't matter the level, you play your best 2 wingers. Edwards is a left winger, always has been. Phillips is a right winger. But with the amount of wingers we have this season we can chop and change as needed, swap sides during the game etc.

Yes there are plenty of examples of right or left footed 3's although some of the players quoted are genuinely two footed unlike ours. I am neither sure it is a question of just picking our best wingers nor am I sure that Phillips is one of those two players. However with a left foot right foot combination the coach has always got the option of playing them wide or inverted. 


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 22, 2019, 10:32:08 AM
First time seeing us in the flesh last night; we look good to me and I echo what others have said regarding getting better once team-mates get acclimatised to one another and certain players are up to match fitness. I did have a few thoughts on both personnel and the current system though:

Centre Forward - For me the weak point in our team currently. Austin isn't match fit yet and I hope that he will be a threat and goalscorer once he achieves this. I have always had a sneaky suspicion that perhaps he is not quite at the level to be effective for us but I won't be writing him off so soon. Zohore looked decent last night and hopefully with confidence and a better understanding with his team-mates he can become the striker we need.

Number 10 position - Is Krovinovic the man? To me he looks better suited as an 8 and attacking from deep. He doesn't look to have particularly great shooting technique and when playing as a 10 rarely looks to go beyond the striker and make himself a goal scoring threat. I think we need this threat from our number 10 as we play with a deep double pivot, full backs that aren't gung-ho and wide players that generally stay wide so we need those numbers and threat in the box. This would take the burden off of the centre forward also. However, Krovinovic as a 10 is very good at initiating the press which is something we could lose if say an Edwards or Pereira plays in there.

Defensively - I think we look ok defensively. We have conceded from set-pieces this year but we control the ball most of the time and look ok. Where I felt we had problems last night was that Reading were exposing the space either side of Livermore and Sawyers in behind our wide players. Either Livermore or Sawyers vacated the central zone which left gaps or the full backs pushed out which left gaps in behind. A potential solution could be switching from a 4-2-3-1 to a 4-3-3 which would cover more space in the central part of the pitch. I think we have the personnel to do it in there with Sawyers, Krovinovic, Livermore and Harper as options. It might also be a way to accommodate the lack of legs that both Brunt and Barry (when he is re-signed) have at this stage of their respective careers.

It might be that the suggestions above are  all tweaks we have in our armoury depending on match and opposition. Last night was the first time that Bilic has gone to a double pivot of ball-playing, attack minded players when he dropped Krovinovic in alongside Sawyers so it would pleasing to see a little innovation if only personnel based at this stage.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on August 22, 2019, 03:08:00 PM
Watching last night I kept thinking what a difference Shane Long would make to this team.
I know Austin isn't fully fit yet, but the times their defenders weer allowed time to bring out without challenge, just wouldn't happen.
Credit to Zohore , did some great runs/closing down

Think we should go for long in Jan
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 22, 2019, 04:20:59 PM
Watching last night I kept thinking what a difference Shane Long would make to this team.
I know Austin isn't fully fit yet, but the times their defenders weer allowed time to bring out without challenge, just wouldn't happen.
Credit to Zohore , did some great runs/closing down

Think we should go for long in Jan


Indeed, he would make it considerably worse.  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 22, 2019, 06:03:55 PM
In general I wouldn't be too critical of the current set up and I am not at all concerned yet about our lack of end product from some of our attacking play and for the second game running we had 20 plus shots which is the sort of shot volume which will generate goals.

There are tweaks.  Krovinovic is an advanced playmaker not a Secondary Striker he will pick passes to players ahead of him and generally isn't going to offer a goal scoring threat. That has to come from the wide players and the lone striker. The wide players need to drive into the box committing defenders and taking shots rather than lofting crosses into the box towards a generally out numbered lone striker.

If we persist in wide players crossing we can't continue with Krovinovic in the attacking midfielder to get into the box and provide support to the lone striker whoever is the best option from Willock/Diangana/Perreira

However I suspect Krovinovic in his current role is central Bilic's thinking and I doubt he will have a double pivot of Sawyers and Krovinovic particularly if we have attacking full backs in Gibbs and Furlong he will want an out and out DM as an insurance policy.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 06, 2019, 10:16:00 AM
It is worthwhile revisiting this thread in the light of recent developments.

Firstly the basic shape of the team is 4-2-3-1 and it seems the first XI looks like this

                                         Johnstone

                       Furlong     Ajayi    Bartley   Ferguson

                                   Livermore   Sawyers

                        Phillips       Pereira     Diangana

                                        Austin

Nothing much to see here the shape has been pretty consistent throughout the season but there are a couple personnel changes which are noteworthy. Pereira has got the number 10 role ahead of Krovinovic and this in turn allowed Diangana to cement his position wide left. Also Gibbs has been fit for the last couple of games and Ferguson has kept his place in the team.

Tactically the shift is pretty subtle but there are definitely developments in how the front 4 is working as a unit.

Firstly something that I did not appreciate with Charlie Austin prior to seeing him this season is how frequently he drops deep to collect the ball. When Krovinovic is in the 10 role it actually just crowds the space he wants to play in and deprives him of a forward passing option. Particularly if none of the other 2 attacking midfielders are making runs beyond Austin.

In recent weeks however with Pereira and Diangana who are both comfortable playing anywhere in the 3 behind the lone striker and Phillips making runs beyond Austin this has gone from a weakness to a strength. Particularly in games where we are going to have the bulk of possession which will be most of them in this division.

Against Leeds where the plan was to go long and forsake possession to bypass their press then HRK and Zohore made more sense just because working the channels is much more their game than it is Austin's. We also saw this away at Fulham where HRK had an effective cameo appearance. 

Finally on the striker Austin is plainly the first choice but Bilic will rotate the striker role through the game I don't think the starting striker has yet to get a full 90 minutes. Yesterday's goal and performance from Austin has laid to rest our striker crisis at least for a couple of weeks.

The other personnel change is the ongoing inclusion of Ferguson ahead of Gibbs. Primarily a defender Ferguson's inclusion allows us to play a back 3 in possession and gives licence for the opposite full back Furlong to play as auxiliary winger. With Phillips moving inside this leaves a big gap down our right side which is patrolled by Ajayi and Livermore (one of the reasons why Bilic won't drop Krovinovic back into the double pivot) 

Defensively we are shipping too many goals and to some extent it is a function of playing on the front foot we are committing numbers forward and our first thought is an attacking one. As such we leak a few more goals than we would if our primary focus was a defensive one. We are generally not defending in numbers unless we are forced to do so e.g. for periods in the Fulham and Leeds games.

It could be argued that at least some of our leakage is down to individual error (which is seen as random rather systematic). This is not entirely true in an attacking team errors are more likely to be punished because there isn't the cover. For instance Cardiff gifted possession away on any number of occasions but weren't punished because there was defensive cover in place to tidy things up.

The inclusion of Hegazi might tighten things up a bit but I wouldn't count on it. We aren't conceding that many shots 11 a game whereas teams who have much better defensive records e.g. Forest and Swansea are conceding 14 shots per game. To some extent we will tighten up just by the application of the law of averages.

Overall Bilic has clear game plan and the personnel to make it work. Yes across the season there are things that might concern us and there are still players in the squad that are largely unloved by the fans but generally those players that remain from last year are playing better, e.g. Bartley and Livermore and those that are new to the team have been integrated into an impressive attacking unit. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on October 06, 2019, 10:49:51 AM
It was noticeable yesterday that on a few occasions that Barkley and less often Ajai would forge forward into the gaps Cardiff left as they assumed/expected them to pass the ball to one of the middle three when moving the ball out of our final third.
Often took them by complete surprise and led to some of our attacks developing so quickly
I'm also beginning to see (and so understand) from the back of the Smethwick how we move the ball, and so the opposition, from one side of the pitch to the other to create similar gaps to exploit.
Loving it very much at the minute, a joy to watch
COYB
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 06, 2019, 12:21:55 PM

The other personnel change is the ongoing inclusion of Ferguson ahead of Gibbs. Primarily a defender Ferguson's inclusion allows us to play a back 3 in possession and gives licence for the opposite full back Furlong to play as auxiliary winger. With Phillips moving inside this leaves a big gap down our right side which is patrolled by Ajayi and Livermore (one of the reasons why Bilic won't drop Krovinovic back into the double pivot) 


I have been thinking that we will need Gibbs back, especially for home games, but this was a pretty exciting development especially yesterday. It meant that Phillips was then coming off of his flank and offering a threat in behind, something Austin does not. It means the other defence may retreat a few yards, giving Pereira and Diangana even more room to produce their magic. It is pleasing to see ongoing tweaks and improvements addressing issues, long may it continue.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 06, 2019, 01:40:13 PM
Last couple of games including Cardiff today 2nd half teams have completely given up on attacking our left side due to Fergusons strength,all Cardiffs attack 2nd half was aimed down the right,as good as Furlong has been playing,would not now our strongest option to play Ferguson in his natural right side(imagine the attacking possibilities with him on his correct side) and bring in Gibbs the natural left sided player who does attack well from that side too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 06, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
Last couple of games including Cardiff today 2nd half teams have completely given up on attacking our left side due to Fergusons strength,all Cardiffs attack 2nd half was aimed down the right,as good as Furlong has been playing,would not now our strongest option to play Ferguson in his natural right side(imagine the attacking possibilities with him on his correct side) and bring in Gibbs the natural left sided player who does attack well from that side too.
Logical but why would you risk what is being very successful?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: ashdoy on October 06, 2019, 02:17:30 PM
Logical but why would you risk what is being very successful?

No. Ferguson will never attack as well as Furlong/Gibbs and having him at Lab actually enables us to utilise Phillips slightly more central and Furlong to be an extra wonger
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 06, 2019, 03:31:43 PM
No. Ferguson will never attack as well as Furlong/Gibbs and having him at Lab actually enables us to utilise Phillips slightly more central and Furlong to be an extra wonger
Ferguson in time will probably attack better than either Furlong or Gibbs,hes playing out of position so probably isn't given licence to attack look what happened when he did v QPR
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 06, 2019, 03:39:01 PM
Logical but why would you risk what is being very successful?
I sort of agree with you,but currently I think Ferguson is the best right back at the club,and gibbs the best left back and I think Furlong attacks better than he defends that's why teams will always targert our right hand side
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on October 06, 2019, 05:17:28 PM
Last couple of games including Cardiff today 2nd half teams have completely given up on attacking our left side due to Fergusons strength,all Cardiffs attack 2nd half was aimed down the right,as good as Furlong has been playing,would not now our strongest option to play Ferguson in his natural right side(imagine the attacking possibilities with him on his correct side) and bring in Gibbs the natural left sided player who does attack well from that side too.

I was thinking this yesterday. The amount of times Ferguson had to check back in to get back on his right foot was an issue.

We forget the lad is only 19 today. He could maybe do with a break having been involved in every game so far.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on October 06, 2019, 05:35:25 PM
It is worthwhile revisiting this thread in the light of recent developments.

Firstly the basic shape of the team is 4-2-3-1 and it seems the first XI looks like this

                                         Johnstone

                       Furlong     Ajayi    Bartley   Ferguson

                                   Livermore   Sawyers

                        Phillips       Pereira     Diangana

                                        Austin

Nothing much to see here the shape has been pretty consistent throughout the season but there are a couple personnel changes which are noteworthy. Pereira has got the number 10 role ahead of Krovinovic and this in turn allowed Diangana to cement his position wide left. Also Gibbs has been fit for the last couple of games and Ferguson has kept his place in the team.

Tactically the shift is pretty subtle but there are definitely developments in how the front 4 is working as a unit.

Firstly something that I did not appreciate with Charlie Austin prior to seeing him this season is how frequently he drops deep to collect the ball. When Krovinovic is in the 10 role it actually just crowds the space he wants to play in and deprives him of a forward passing option. Particularly if none of the other 2 attacking midfielders are making runs beyond Austin.

In recent weeks however with Pereira and Diangana who are both comfortable playing anywhere in the 3 behind the lone striker and Phillips making runs beyond Austin this has gone from a weakness to a strength. Particularly in games where we are going to have the bulk of possession which will be most of them in this division.

Against Leeds where the plan was to go long and forsake possession to bypass their press then HRK and Zohore made more sense just because working the channels is much more their game than it is Austin's. We also saw this away at Fulham where HRK had an effective cameo appearance. 

Finally on the striker Austin is plainly the first choice but Bilic will rotate the striker role through the game I don't think the starting striker has yet to get a full 90 minutes. Yesterday's goal and performance from Austin has laid to rest our striker crisis at least for a couple of weeks.

The other personnel change is the ongoing inclusion of Ferguson ahead of Gibbs. Primarily a defender Ferguson's inclusion allows us to play a back 3 in possession and gives licence for the opposite full back Furlong to play as auxiliary winger. With Phillips moving inside this leaves a big gap down our right side which is patrolled by Ajayi and Livermore (one of the reasons why Bilic won't drop Krovinovic back into the double pivot) 

Defensively we are shipping too many goals and to some extent it is a function of playing on the front foot we are committing numbers forward and our first thought is an attacking one. As such we leak a few more goals than we would if our primary focus was a defensive one. We are generally not defending in numbers unless we are forced to do so e.g. for periods in the Fulham and Leeds games.

It could be argued that at least some of our leakage is down to individual error (which is seen as random rather systematic). This is not entirely true in an attacking team errors are more likely to be punished because there isn't the cover. For instance Cardiff gifted possession away on any number of occasions but weren't punished because there was defensive cover in place to tidy things up.

The inclusion of Hegazi might tighten things up a bit but I wouldn't count on it. We aren't conceding that many shots 11 a game whereas teams who have much better defensive records e.g. Forest and Swansea are conceding 14 shots per game. To some extent we will tighten up just by the application of the law of averages.

Overall Bilic has clear game plan and the personnel to make it work. Yes across the season there are things that might concern us and there are still players in the squad that are largely unloved by the fans but generally those players that remain from last year are playing better, e.g. Bartley and Livermore and those that are new to the team have been integrated into an impressive attacking unit.

Interesting that you comment on Austin coming deep for the ball.

I'm not sure if it's part of his natural play, or if he's under instruction to do it, but for me he looks uncomfortable.
I've yet to see Austin look up for a pass, he mostly hits it into a space where he thinks a player might be, on the other hand, you could be right about Krovinovic hindering him.

I was delighted to see him get his opening goal yesterday, but, as a link up player, he just doesn't cut it for me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on October 06, 2019, 06:36:08 PM
I was thinking this yesterday. The amount of times Ferguson had to check back in to get back on his right foot was an issue.

We forget the lad is only 19 today. He could maybe do with a break having been involved in every game so far.
This must be quite a headache for Bilic with Gibbs coming back to fitness. Personally, I've always been a big fan of Gibbs because we look that much more dangerous attacking down the left side with him there. I think it does make a difference having a left footer to deliver crosses from that side (square pegs in square holes as some on this Forum are fond of saying!). 
I think Ferguson will have to fight it out with Furlong for the right back slot, which is tough on Furlong, who has already provided several goal assists and looks like giving alot more.
Apparently Ferguson started off as a centre back, so that could be another option, although I don't know who out of Hegazi, Ajayi and Bartley he would displace.
Still, luckily its not my decision.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 06, 2019, 07:23:37 PM
This must be quite a headache for Bilic with Gibbs coming back to fitness. Personally, I've always been a big fan of Gibbs because we look that much more dangerous attacking down the left side with him there. I think it does make a difference having a left footer to deliver crosses from that side (square pegs in square holes as some on this Forum are fond of saying!). 
I think Ferguson will have to fight it out with Furlong for the right back slot, which is tough on Furlong, who has already provided several goal assists and looks like giving alot more.
Apparently Ferguson started off as a centre back, so that could be another option, although I don't know who out of Hegazi, Ajayi and Bartley he would displace.
Still, luckily its not my decision.
 
I don't think Ferguson will be used as a CB. One reason for his apparent conversion to RB may be the height factor. According to his wiki he's 5ft 8...he may be a bit more than that but he's not of the stature of the other 3 and Hegazi and Ajayi at least, can both play a bit as well as being tall which is still a big advantage. He's 19 now so unlikely to grow much more. Ferguson's experience as a CB and natural defensive instincts help with that occasional switch to 3 at the back. Will be interesting to watch how this  Gibbs/Ferguson/Furlong situation develops.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 06, 2019, 08:33:46 PM
I don't think Ferguson will be used as a CB. One reason for his apparent conversion to RB may be the height factor. According to his wiki he's 5ft 8...he may be a bit more than that but he's not of the stature of the other 3 and Hegazi and Ajayi at least, can both play a bit as well as being tall which is still a big advantage. He's 19 now so unlikely to grow much more. Ferguson's experience as a CB and natural defensive instincts help with that occasional switch to 3 at the back. Will be interesting to watch how this  Gibbs/Ferguson/Furlong situation develops.

 I think centre half is the one position we need more strength in depth,pretty sure Hegazi will eventually come in for Bartley ,but Hegazi also prone to errors too,Ajayi looks fantastic when he bursts forward in midfield if we had another good centre half would give us Ajayi midfield option too
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 07, 2019, 09:51:11 AM
Ajayi's change of pace is what our defence has needed for a long time. We've had  a lot of fairly static traditional defenders when the game has changed, meaning defenders  need to move forward and get back quickly. If you have slow defenders it forces the team to play too deep.

I think pacy defenders are a response to the vogue for counter attacking football which sticks a speed merchant up front (like Adam Traore or dare I say Olly Burke) in the hope that a quick ball out from the back will get said speed merchant in behind the defence. 2 ways to obviate this
a) quick defenders or
b) drop deep and eliminate the space.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 20, 2019, 04:16:54 PM
Just back from Middlesbrough,really now think Ferguson should be starting at right back,imagine the damage he could do coming forward on his proper and stronger side,a lot more than Furlong can do,again all Boro,s chances were created down the right,i think its time to ask ourselves who is the best right back Ferguson or Furlong,play Gibbs at left back ,also I have been a big critic of Bartley but he was very good today,i would also try bringing in Hergazi and moving Ajay into midfield at the expense of Livermore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 20, 2019, 09:24:36 PM
Just back from Middlesbrough,really now think Ferguson should be starting at right back,imagine the damage he could do coming forward on his proper and stronger side,a lot more than Furlong can do,again all Boro,s chances were created down the right,i think its time to ask ourselves who is the best right back Ferguson or Furlong,play Gibbs at left back ,also I have been a big critic of Bartley but he was very good today,i would also try bringing in Hergazi and moving Ajay into midfield at the expense of Livermore.

We could just swap Furlong and Ferguson around and see how that compares. Both of them have way more heart and commitment than Gibbs, a player we signing from a bigger club on the way down in his career.

Don't agree with moving Ajay into midfield, his pace is vital as we push high up the pitch. Hegazi can sit on the bench until Bartley's performance levels dip.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 20, 2019, 09:33:20 PM
Why did we have Hergazi and Oshea on the bench yesterday 2 centre halves is Zamore injured or that far down in the pecking order.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on October 20, 2019, 10:16:58 PM
Why did we have Hergazi and Oshea on the bench yesterday 2 centre halves is Zamore injured or that far down in the pecking order.
Injured mate , calf I think.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: leeiswba on October 21, 2019, 06:23:24 AM
We could just swap Furlong and Ferguson around and see how that compares. Both of them have way more heart and commitment than Gibbs, a player we signing from a bigger club on the way down in his career.

Don't agree with moving Ajay into midfield, his pace is vital as we push high up the pitch. Hegazi can sit on the bench until Bartley's performance levels dip.

Bit harsh on Gibbs, I’ve seen nothing at all to suggest he doesn’t give it his all and he still a class player at this level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 21, 2019, 06:39:11 AM
With 3 games this week I would expect to see a little bit of rotation. Although the basic shape and tactics will likely remain the same.  Injuries permitting the one change I would like to see is  Pereira moved back into the number 10 role where he looks a lot more dangerous.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 21, 2019, 09:12:17 AM
But harsh on Gibbs, I’ve seen nothing at all to suggest he doesn’t give it his all and he still a class player at this level.
Agreed, i don't understand the criticism of Gibbs at all, he is quality at this level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 21, 2019, 12:58:19 PM
Agreed, i don't understand the criticism of Gibbs at all, he is quality at this level.

Remember his disastrous 15 minute spell away at Derby, awful challenge giving away a penalty and then subbed? Or that stupid lunge at Grealish giving away the penalty in the first leg of the playoffs? Or the numerous times he has been found wanting defending the back post? He blows hot and cold and can't be bothered defending when he's not in the mood. Decent on the ball and going forwards but Ferguson is head and shoulders above him for defending with concentration and aggression.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on October 21, 2019, 01:06:48 PM
Remember his disastrous 15 minute spell away at Derby, awful challenge giving away a penalty and then subbed? Or that stupid lunge at Grealish giving away the penalty in the first leg of the playoffs? Or the numerous times he has been found wanting defending the back post? He blows hot and cold and can't be bothered defending when he's not in the mood. Decent on the ball and going forwards but Ferguson is head and shoulders above him for defending with concentration and aggression.

Everyone can have a disastrous 15 minutes - Kieron was not the only one to have a bad game against the vile either...at least he wasn't sent off in either leg.

For me Gibbs is a class player, but we have something special in Ferguson. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on October 21, 2019, 02:40:09 PM
Remember his disastrous 15 minute spell away at Derby, awful challenge giving away a penalty and then subbed? Or that stupid lunge at Grealish giving away the penalty in the first leg of the playoffs? Or the numerous times he has been found wanting defending the back post? He blows hot and cold and can't be bothered defending when he's not in the mood. Decent on the ball and going forwards but Ferguson is head and shoulders above him for defending with concentration and aggression.


He was injured.


Still easily the best full back at the club.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: leeiswba on October 21, 2019, 02:41:43 PM
Remember his disastrous 15 minute spell away at Derby, awful challenge giving away a penalty and then subbed? Or that stupid lunge at Grealish giving away the penalty in the first leg of the playoffs? Or the numerous times he has been found wanting defending the back post? He blows hot and cold and can't be bothered defending when he's not in the mood. Decent on the ball and going forwards but Ferguson is head and shoulders above him for defending with concentration and aggression.

There is just absolutely nothing to back that up at all.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 21, 2019, 11:43:54 PM
There is just absolutely nothing to back that up at all.

Gibbs is weak defensively. He makes silly mistakes and lacks concentration. Again, I go back to his last performance which was a nightmare.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: leeiswba on October 22, 2019, 07:12:20 AM
Gibbs is weak defensively. He makes silly mistakes and lacks concentration. Again, I go back to his last performance which was a nightmare.

That ain’t a problem if that’s your opinion on his performances, everyone sees the game differently but to question his application and stating if he can’t bothered he doesn’t try then I think that’s unfair
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on October 22, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
Gibbs is quality, for me that is a fact. Ferguson however has the potential to be extremely good. We must look after him in every way... and that includes the awarding of a new contract very soon !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on October 23, 2019, 12:54:13 PM
Gibbs is the best left back I've seen at the club (started going 1997). He might not be the best defensively, but he shouldn't be playing Championship football at all.

Ferguson is a good prospect, but needs to be playing on the other side. We need a bespoke left back to give us balance.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Wbamitch on October 23, 2019, 10:27:39 PM
Agree with the post above, Gibbs is excellent, a few lapses in concentration granted but it would be great to have him back available soon. Agree on Ferguson as well, its very obvious but to be fair the majority of games he has exceeded the expectations in that role. Great choices at full back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: elkiellis on October 24, 2019, 10:31:02 PM
Defensively at home to keep conceding 2 goals is not on,when available back four should be Gibbs,Ferguson,Ajay and Hergazi lets play our best players in there best positions,stop trying to play out from the back at all costs,and at home let teams come onto us a bit more rather than us attacking non stop and our fullbacks getting caught out of position,midfield Sawyers,Livermore,Priara,Phillips ,Diangna,all agreed here Krovinic I really don't get the love in he constantly looses the ball always trying to play it through the middle of the opposition defence,every game he does this,too lightweight gets knocked off the ball too easy,bench player every time for me,Edwards I had high hopes this season but was extremely poor v Barnsley he could go either way.
Forwards,give Ken a few more games,try Willock and Soule and then either get Gayle or play 6 midfielders,Austin and Kanu are not the answer,except last 20 mins off the bench when the opposition is tired.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 25, 2019, 07:04:04 PM
Okay we had a disappointing result against Barnsley. There were a few performances that didn't quite measure up to the generally high standards this team has set but that does not mean everything is broken.

The team's style of play is going to be possession based it is simply not set up to go long. Against a very well drilled team like Barnsley who compressed space and maintained a high line we struggled. Bilic criticised his players for trying to find the killer pass too early in the play which was true. This type of game is one of attrition we keep the ball move it forward in a controlled manner draw fouls keep them pinned back and make the killer pass when we are within striking distance of goal rather than trying to thread a pinpoint pass through to one of the forwards on the halfway line.

I wouldn't change much at this point

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 25, 2019, 08:34:53 PM
I personally think full backs should use the foot of that side therefore when Gibbs is fit he should start in my opinion. It would help us be a bit more direct which we need. Ferguson and Furlong can then compete for the RB spot.

I also think correct footed full backs will then allow for the option of inverted wingers if we want to swap Diangana and Phillips in games.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 25, 2019, 09:09:50 PM
I personally think full backs should use the foot of that side therefore when Gibbs is fit he should start in my opinion. It would help us be a bit more direct which we need. Ferguson and Furlong can then compete for the RB spot.

I also think correct footed full backs will then allow for the option of inverted wingers if we want to swap Diangana and Phillips in games.
Can't rule Townsend out of that fullback debate either. He's given signs of it before but on what we've seen I'd say he is the best crosser of the ball of the 4 fullbacks you mention. He seems to be prone to a bit of positional disorientation now and then but he's in the reckoning.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 25, 2019, 09:12:11 PM
I personally think full backs should use the foot of that side therefore when Gibbs is fit he should start in my opinion. It would help us be a bit more direct which we need. Ferguson and Furlong can then compete for the RB spot.

I also think correct footed full backs will then allow for the option of inverted wingers if we want to swap Diangana and Phillips in games.

i have the same opinion about wingers, inverted wingers whilst fashionable for a while still seems a bizarre idea to me. Would you have played Willie or Laurie on the wrong wing? thought not !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 26, 2019, 01:28:28 AM
i have the same opinion about wingers, inverted wingers whilst fashionable for a while still seems a bizarre idea to me. Would you have played Willie or Laurie on the wrong wing? thought not !


Yes, terrible idea with only 140 goals between Salah and Mane really can't see why Liverpool persist with it.

You can't look at a modern 4-3-3 and think the wide players are traditional wingers. In a 4-2-3-1 the closer the wide players resemble a traditional winger the more rigid the play the less effective the team is going forward.







Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 26, 2019, 08:24:44 AM

Yes, terrible idea with only 140 goals between Salah and Mane really can't see why Liverpool persist with it.

You can't look at a modern 4-3-3 and think the wide players are traditional wingers. In a 4-2-3-1 the closer the wide players resemble a traditional winger the more rigid the play the less effective the team is going forward.

Not often I disagree with you Stan but on this one I do, personally I don’t think of Mane or Salah as wingers, wide midfielders yes. The term winger surely means someone who plays predominantly on the wings. Maybe it’s a rigid formation but if the winger is of sufficient capability he will beat the defender and put in the most dangerous ball in the game ie a cross from near the bye line or the opposition will put 2 defenders on the winger which creates space for the other forwards.

I accept that I am an old Luddite but give me the sight of wee willie leaving full backs in his wake over a Mane type athlete everyday ( I accept Salah has great tekkers and can beat a man BTW)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on October 26, 2019, 05:03:09 PM
Irrespective of system or tactics we MUST start winning home games. Dropping far too many points at The Hawthorns.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MICKYMEL on October 27, 2019, 05:32:14 PM
                       Johnstone

Furlong/Ferguson Bartley hegazi. Gibbs

                 Ajayi.        Livermore

                Pereira sawyers.     Diangana

                        Phillips

Rotherham fans Adamant ajayi is better in midfield. Livermore can’t be dropped on this seasons form , nor Bartley but we need to be more compact as conceding 2 at home 5 games in a row criminal.
Get hegazi and Gibbs back in, shuffle ajayi in defensive midfield, sawyers bit further forward , pereira free role and pace of Phillips needed up front
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 27, 2019, 06:35:23 PM
 This is radical but I'd try no forwards

-                      Johnstone

-          Ferguson    Hegazi     Bartley

-    Furlong                                     Gibbs

-                Ajayi           Sawyers
 
-     Phillips           Pereira            Diangana

run the opposition ragged for an hour then throw a forward on if needed
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on October 27, 2019, 07:17:20 PM
This is radical but I'd try no forwards

-                      Johnstone

-          Ferguson    Hegazi     Bartley

-    Furlong                                     Gibbs

-                Ajayi           Sawyers
 
-     Phillips           Pereira            Diangana

run the opposition ragged for an hour then throw a forward on if needed
I think I’d rather 4 at the back , 2 central mid with krov in the whole behind those 3
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on October 27, 2019, 07:27:12 PM
If Ferguson can't dispossess Furlong of the right back berth you don't create a position for him just to get him in the team, which is what 3 at the back is doing imo.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on October 27, 2019, 07:40:11 PM
If Ferguson can't dispossess Furlong of the right back berth you don't create a position for him just to get him in the team, which is what 3 at the back is doing imo.
Oh the irony........... I can't believe you just wrote that Jacko.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 28, 2019, 01:42:47 AM
This is radical but I'd try no forwards

-                      Johnstone

-          Ferguson    Hegazi     Bartley

-    Furlong                                     Gibbs

-                Ajayi           Sawyers
 
-     Phillips           Pereira            Diangana

run the opposition ragged for an hour then throw a forward on if needed

An Albion team with a false 9 go on invert those wingers you know you know you want to  :D

I am not entirely sure of the thing we are trying to fix here but I am all for innovation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on October 28, 2019, 07:16:00 AM
An Albion team with a false 9 go on invert those wingers you know you know you want to  :D

I am not entirely sure of the thing we are trying to fix here but I am all for innovation.

I thought we were already playing with a false number 9...…. ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on October 28, 2019, 08:23:41 AM
This is radical but I'd try no forwards

-                      Johnstone

-          Ferguson    Hegazi     Bartley

-    Furlong                                     Gibbs

-                Ajayi           Sawyers
 
-     Phillips           Pereira            Diangana

run the opposition ragged for an hour then throw a forward on if needed
I would like to see us try something like this - you can tell Diangana to forget about defending and just buzz away up front
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 28, 2019, 11:20:41 AM
An Albion team with a false 9 go on invert those wingers you know you know you want to  :D

I am not entirely sure of the thing we are trying to fix here but I am all for innovation.

Tut tut, cheeky stan !  Funny though ! :D ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 15, 2019, 09:18:23 AM
Picking up a few points from the last two games.

First of all rotation. Bilic got more than a little criticism for his wholesale changes at Wigan. However our first two muscle injuries happened in the game before and the game after which might suggest that his concerns about one or two members of the squad were justified.

I think it needs to be remembered that for the younger players e.g. Pereira, Diangana and Ferguson this is the first season that they are have worked at this level of intensity for a prolonged period. While they have energy and enthusiasm they don't have stamina nor the know how to pace themselves through games. On other hand you have players who are reaching the stage of their careers where 2 full 90's a week is a bit of a stretch e.g. Phillips, Austin, Robson-Kanu and Gibbs. Equally Sawyers and Livermore have played at lot of minutes and are still in their peak years (just) keeping them both on the pitch throughout the season is going to be a challenge.

In short there is going to be some voluntary rotation or there will be rotation forced on Coach because of injury. All Championship clubs are in the same boat unless they are blessed in having a squad made up entirely of players in a very narrow peak age range which might mean they could muscle through a Championship season pretty much unchanged.

The 2nd question is how do we cope without Diangana? This needs to be answered in two parts firstly we will be without him for the next fortnight if we are lucky we might have him back for the Leeds game and if recalled by West Ham then we need find a longer term solution but at least we have the opportunity of signing players in January.

The simple answer is keep the team shape the same and plug another player into the role. There would seem to be 2 possibilities either play the right footed Edwards or move the left footed Pereira out wide and backfill the 10 role with Krovinovic.

The Edwards option messes with the balance of the team and as such is not ideal whereas Pereira is at least left footed but it takes him out of the position where he has been most effective. It also sets up the Sawyers/Krovinovic double playmaker dynamic which hasn't worked particularly well when it has been tried earlier in the season. There might be other options with Pereira on the left with Phillips moving into the 10 role with Edwards wide right. Or maybe Willock or HRK coming into the 10 role. 

However it has been hinted that should we lose Diangana in January then Bilic would as likely change his team shape as try to find a direct Diangana replacement. We might have had a preview for the last 20 minutes at Blues where we moved to a 3-4-1-2 as follows:


                                                     Johnstone

                                Ajayi      Bartley   Ferguson

                     Furlong       Sawyers     Livermore   Townsend   

                                              Pereira

                                 Robson-Kanu   Austin

I am not a big fan of changing team shape mid season particularly over a period where the games come thick and fast and the coach does not have a lot of time to work on things on the training ground and the settling in period could cost us a couple of defeats.  That said it does have more than a little merit and if we were to secure either Bowen or Gayle they would slot into that line up easier than the 4-2-3-1.

The line up that Bilic picks against Brentford will be very interesting.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on December 15, 2019, 09:29:24 AM
Livermore looked very laboured second half, at one point he looked like he was running through treacle and was beaten to a loose ball by Gardner, who had just come on, despite having a yard start on him.  They have a weeks rest now, but then another serious bunch of games close together, where rotation will be needed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 15, 2019, 10:54:52 AM
play the right footed Edwards

This would be my solution. Although right footed, Edwards is similar in terms of hugging the flank and primarily being a dribbler. I'm all for us providing academy products minutes so I may be biased. I think Bilic will do this or put Pereira wide left, Robson-Kanu as the 10 (he referred to him as a 10 earlier in the season) and bring in Austin,  with Zohore reappearing on the bench.

In terms of longer term, I'd be looking to bring in reinforcements for the three behind the striker. Obviously in case Diangana goes but even if he stays. There are players there that can play both sides, like Phillips, so there are options. Bowen for example could come in on the right and Phillips switch across. I think Krovinovic has shown he is certainly more of an 8 than a 10, sure he can play there when we need better possession but in terms of how we play, I now see him as the like for like replacement for Sawyers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 15, 2019, 11:07:08 AM
Interestingly according to Danilo Butorovic and Slaven alluded to it as well, though it didn't seem obvious to me at the time, we switched to 3-5-2 late on yesterday. With Diangana possibly going back to West Ham (and of course he is now injured) there have been rumblings of a possible tinkering of the way we set up. Is 3-5-2 going to be another option for us moving forward?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 15, 2019, 02:26:49 PM
Interestingly according to Danilo Butorovic and Slaven alluded to it as well, though it didn't seem obvious to me at the time, we switched to 3-5-2 late on yesterday. With Diangana possibly going back to West Ham (and of course he is now injured) there have been rumblings of a possible tinkering of the way we set up. Is 3-5-2 going to be another option for us moving forward?

Formations are how you start out but what actually happens in the game on and off the ball are the actual systems you play. You could argue in recent weeks we have been 352, certainly on the ball, think back to Brostol City at home. Ferguson tucked in to make a three at times, Gibbs played like a left midfielder and Diangana played very high, almost like another forward (I guess it would be a 3412 as Pereira stayed in the 10 position but you can see my point).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: halifax_baggie on December 15, 2019, 03:25:15 PM
Did you hear Billic say he brought on Austin to make City play even narrower to enable us to get the ball wide and behind the defence. It was  clear this tactical move led to our 3rd goal. Tells you all you need to know about the manager.

Yes you can play to a system but the coach has to have the tactical awareness in real time games to make game changing changes
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TiptonThrostle on December 16, 2019, 08:49:49 AM
Picking up a few points from the last two games.

First of all rotation. Bilic got more than a little criticism for his wholesale changes at Wigan. However our first two muscle injuries happened in the game before and the game after which might suggest that his concerns about one or two members of the squad were justified.

I think it needs to be remembered that for the younger players e.g. Pereira, Diangana and Ferguson this is the first season that they are have worked at this level of intensity for a prolonged period. While they have energy and enthusiasm they don't have stamina nor the know how to pace themselves through games. On other hand you have players who are reaching the stage of their careers where 2 full 90's a week is a bit of a stretch e.g. Phillips, Austin, Robson-Kanu and Gibbs. Equally Sawyers and Livermore have played at lot of minutes and are still in their peak years (just) keeping them both on the pitch throughout the season is going to be a challenge.

In short there is going to be some voluntary rotation or there will be rotation forced on Coach because of injury. All Championship clubs are in the same boat unless they are blessed in having a squad made up entirely of players in a very narrow peak age range which might mean they could muscle through a Championship season pretty much unchanged.

The 2nd question is how do we cope without Diangana? This needs to be answered in two parts firstly we will be without him for the next fortnight if we are lucky we might have him back for the Leeds game and if recalled by West Ham then we need find a longer term solution but at least we have the opportunity of signing players in January.

The simple answer is keep the team shape the same and plug another player into the role. There would seem to be 2 possibilities either play the right footed Edwards or move the left footed Pereira out wide and backfill the 10 role with Krovinovic.

The Edwards option messes with the balance of the team and as such is not ideal whereas Pereira is at least left footed but it takes him out of the position where he has been most effective. It also sets up the Sawyers/Krovinovic double playmaker dynamic which hasn't worked particularly well when it has been tried earlier in the season. There might be other options with Pereira on the left with Phillips moving into the 10 role with Edwards wide right. Or maybe Willock or HRK coming into the 10 role. 

However it has been hinted that should we lose Diangana in January then Bilic would as likely change his team shape as try to find a direct Diangana replacement. We might have had a preview for the last 20 minutes at Blues where we moved to a 3-4-1-2 as follows:


                                                     Johnstone

                                Ajayi      Bartley   Ferguson

                     Furlong       Sawyers     Livermore   Townsend   

                                              Pereira

                                 Robson-Kanu   Austin

I am not a big fan of changing team shape mid season particularly over a period where the games come thick and fast and the coach does not have a lot of time to work on things on the training ground and the settling in period could cost us a couple of defeats.  That said it does have more than a little merit and if we were to secure either Bowen or Gayle they would slot into that line up easier than the 4-2-3-1.

The line up that Bilic picks against Brentford will be very interesting.



sorry but would never play that team. if we did, Perreria is literally the only player that can create anything in that team. man mark him and it cuts the whole supply to the front 2.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on December 16, 2019, 09:13:29 AM


sorry but would never play that team. if we did, Perreria is literally the only player that can create anything in that team. man mark him and it cuts the whole supply to the front 2.

Standaman was pointing out that when we went to 3-4-1-2 against Blues that that was the line up, rather than saying we should be playing that line up from the off.
We scored 2 goals which defeats your argument that we wouldn't create anything.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 21, 2020, 11:54:06 PM
It looks likely that we will be without Diangana for a month. Obviously losing his quality from the team is a blow but more than anything else it really has disturbed the balance of the team with him being pretty much the only option for a left footed wide player. As discussed earlier in this thread and again demonstrated against Stoke Pereira while left footed and can play out wide he less effective and we miss his presence in the central areas in the 10 role.

Filling the gap left Diangana is nearly impossible in the external market there is an absolute dearth of left footed wide players. Bowen is one of the few options but short of throwing £20m at Hull I find it hard to believe we would be able to land him. Orsic is reportedly two footed so could offer a solution.

In the absence of a ready made replacement then again I think we could do worse than a change of shape to a 3-4-1-2 or if Bilic wants to pursue a 4-2-3-1 then the two options for the wide left position is either HRK or Chris Brunt.




 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on January 22, 2020, 08:44:10 AM
It looks likely that we will be without Diangana for a month. Obviously losing his quality from the team is a blow but more than anything else it really has disturbed the balance of the team with him being pretty much the only option for a left footed wide player. As discussed earlier in this thread and again demonstrated against Stoke Pereira while left footed and can play out wide he less effective and we miss his presence in the central areas in the 10 role.

Filling the gap left Diangana is nearly impossible in the external market there is an absolute dearth of left footed wide players. Bowen is one of the few options but short of throwing £20m at Hull I find it hard to believe we would be able to land him. Orsic is reportedly two footed so could offer a solution.

In the absence of a ready made replacement then again I think we could do worse than a change of shape to a 3-4-1-2 or if Bilic wants to pursue a 4-2-3-1 then the two options for the wide left position is either HRK or Chris Brunt.
What about 4-3-3? We had some success with that last season and it brought the best out of HRK and Phillips, for a time at least. We are struggling to create at present so need to focus on our attacking strength, whilst covering the absence of Diangana.
                 Bond (more hope than expectation)
  Furlong Bartley Ajayi Ferguson
       Phillips Sawyers Livermore
           Kanu Austin Perreira

I know it pushes Perreira out of the 10 role but he may get a bit more freedom in a 3, with CH's having to deal with the physicality of Kanu and Austin.
Could also suit the likes of Krovinovic, Edwards and Zohore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Maresca Was A Baggie on January 22, 2020, 09:22:02 AM
First of all - Stop playing players out of their natural position. How many times does this happen throughout football. You can't expect to get the best out of any player if he is not playing in his natural role. It isn't rocket science. Playing HRK on a wing is a waste, particularly when we have other wide options in the squad. At the moment Slav seems to be trying to get his favourite 11 players into the team, regardless of where they actually need to be playing. If anything, this has shown how thin our squad actually is. Pereira MUST play in the middle no matter how short we are. It nullifies the team moving him out wide, and effectively gives the opposition an advantage as he doesn't cause as many problems out wide. If you are a squad player you must be wondering what you have to do to get a game at the moment, bearing in mind the team is faltering badly. This isn't a 'blib', it's a drop off the cliff in terms of form. Slav HAS to change something. He cant just keep repeating what isn't working at the moment. If we don't add at least 2 players by next week we are in trouble. We have completely lost that cutting edge at the moment. We look pedestrian - there's no zip to our play, which is proving easy to defend against. You can't rely on 'luck' to get you out of a hole, you need to make positive changes to influence the outcome of a game. It seems we are just going through the motions right now, hoping something will happen, rather then making it happen. when you are playing well you generally get the rub of the green. At the moment nothing seems to be going our way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on January 22, 2020, 09:34:26 AM
Very good post Enzo
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on January 22, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
Chris Willock, although right footed, is listed on Transfermarkt as Primarily a left winger. Maybe we could give him a first team opportunity?

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/chris-willock/profil/spieler/314341
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on January 22, 2020, 09:52:06 AM
First of all - Stop playing players out of their natural position. How many times does this happen throughout football. You can't expect to get the best out of any player if he is not playing in his natural role. It isn't rocket science. Playing HRK on a wing is a waste, particularly when we have other wide options in the squad. At the moment Slav seems to be trying to get his favourite 11 players into the team, regardless of where they actually need to be playing. If anything, this has shown how thin our squad actually is. Pereira MUST play in the middle no matter how short we are. It nullifies the team moving him out wide, and effectively gives the opposition an advantage as he doesn't cause as many problems out wide. If you are a squad player you must be wondering what you have to do to get a game at the moment, bearing in mind the team is faltering badly. This isn't a 'blib', it's a drop off the cliff in terms of form. Slav HAS to change something. He cant just keep repeating what isn't working at the moment. If we don't add at least 2 players by next week we are in trouble. We have completely lost that cutting edge at the moment. We look pedestrian - there's no zip to our play, which is proving easy to defend against. You can't rely on 'luck' to get you out of a hole, you need to make positive changes to influence the outcome of a game. It seems we are just going through the motions right now, hoping something will happen, rather then making it happen. when you are playing well you generally get the rub of the green. At the moment nothing seems to be going our way.
That's why I think we need to look at a change of formation. The loss of Diangana has dramatically stunted the effect of the 4-2-3-1 we have played all season. It has also stunted Perreira's affect on the game, whether in a 10 or out wide. We have been "sussed", as it were, and have to adapt accordingly.
Big test for Bilic now, his tried and tested approach is failing so he needs to come up with something, and, whilst I would love to see it, I don't think 1 or 2 new faces will be enough, in isolation, to solve the current slide.
I've said before, the bloke oozes charisma and speaks exceptionally well but, what he needs to show now is his tactical nous.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: saml30 on January 22, 2020, 12:07:31 PM
Chris Willock, although right footed, is listed on Transfermarkt as Primarily a left winger. Maybe we could give him a first team opportunity?

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/chris-willock/profil/spieler/314341

Novel idea that....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on January 22, 2020, 12:20:36 PM
With our full back issues and inability to keep the goals out I'm surprised we haven't tried 3 at the back. With what we have currently available I'd go:

                                  Bond

                  Ajayi        Bartley      Hegazi / Ferguson / O'Shea

Furlong            Livermore    Sawyers             Edwards

                                 Pereira

                             Austin   HRK
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on January 22, 2020, 12:59:22 PM
If you take the Stoke game and how Stoke set up, you have to ask, which formation would have done better.  We ended up mainly slinging long high balls into their box which to be frank, didn't work. Certainly not if you are relying on HRK (not the tallest) and Zohore, who loses most of his individual duels.
I think the key was getting in around the outside and delivering crosses or cut backs. There were very few times we got past the last defender and did that. Phillips and Furlong a few times, but on the left side, there was only Townsend who can't do that.
So in those sort of games, the formation has to include 2 attacking wide players who can interchange with 2 attacking full backs which works best in a 4-2-3-1. 
We didn't play 4-2-3-1 against Stoke after Diangana went off, and even if he had stayed on, you need Gibbs or better to give you the width when attacking.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 22, 2020, 01:24:12 PM
With Perreira looking like being suspended for the league games against Cardiff and Luton I'd go with something like this:

                       Johnstone


             Bartley   Ajayi   Hegazi           

Furlong                                        Brunt

          Phillips   Livermore  Sawyers

                          Kanu

                          Austin
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on January 22, 2020, 01:44:59 PM
Everybody is saying buy a striker but I think our problem is in midfield.

I think Sawyers and Livermore are too much alike to play in the same team. They are both defensive midfielders. What we need is someone in midfield who will run at the defence like Barnes did last season. Periera does it sometimes but he is more of a creative midfielder.  my midfield would be either sawyers or livermore, periera, a winger maybe Philips and one other player who could run at the opposing defence.  Harper could have been the one but maybe try Edwards down the middle. Ideally get someone in who can do that job.  That would leave 2 up front.  So we would be playing a 4-4-2.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 23, 2020, 03:05:39 PM
if Bilic wants to pursue a 4-2-3-1 then the two options for the wide left position is either HRK or Chris Brunt.

Agree about finding width in advanced areas as teams are playing quite narrow in order to stifle Pereira and Sawyers - although Pereira being suspended changes things again.

Everybody is saying buy a striker but I think our problem is in midfield.


I agree that the midfield isn't functioning that well and in light of Pereira being out suspended, I'd like to see this change:

Johnstone

Furlong
Hegazi
Ajayi
Ferguson

Harper
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Phillips
Robson-Kanu
Edwards

This hopefully will give Sawyers some more space as both Krovinovic and arguably Harper are better at receiving the ball on the half turn than Livermore so should give the opposition more to think about. I think if we go for a three we do need players who can break the lines and Harper can certainly do that as can Krovinovic.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on January 23, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
Agree about finding width in advanced areas as teams are playing quite narrow in order to stifle Pereira and Sawyers - although Pereira being suspended changes things again.

I agree that the midfield isn't functioning that well and in light of Pereira being out suspended, I'd like to see this change:

Johnstone

Furlong
Hegazi
Ajayi
Ferguson

Harper
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Phillips
Robson-Kanu
Edwards

This hopefully will give Sawyers some more space as both Krovinovic and arguably Harper are better at receiving the ball on the half turn than Livermore so should give the opposition more to think about. I think if we go for a three we do need players who can break the lines and Harper can certainly do that as can Krovinovic.

But who in that midfield can tackle? Far too lightweight in my opinion. Replace  Harper for Livermore and it looks better.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 23, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
I would go for adding a bit more experience for the next couple of games as I think we need it to help improve our mentality:                 

                           Johnstone

Furlong       Bartley          Hegazi          Ferguson

                  Livermore           Barry

        Phillips           Sawyers              Brunt

                               Austin

SUBS: Ajayi, Krovinovic, HRK, Edwards, Zohore, Harper, Bond
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on January 23, 2020, 05:57:43 PM
I would go for adding a bit more experience for the next couple of games as I think we need it to help improve our mentality:                 

                           Johnstone

Furlong       Bartley          Hegazi          Ferguson

                  Livermore           Barry

        Phillips           Sawyers              Brunt

                               Austin

SUBS: Ajayi, Krovinovic, HRK, Edwards, Zohore, Harper, Bond
Brunt and Barry should have been spliced in more at the beginning of December when we were still full of confidence, but hopefully they can do a shoring up job now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on January 23, 2020, 06:51:44 PM
I would go for adding a bit more experience for the next couple of games as I think we need it to help improve our mentality:                 

                           Johnstone

Furlong       Bartley          Hegazi          Ferguson

                  Livermore           Barry

        Phillips           Sawyers              Brunt

                               Austin

SUBS: Ajayi, Krovinovic, HRK, Edwards, Zohore, Harper, Bond
This must be quite close to the slowest team we could possibly put out from the players at our disposal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 23, 2020, 06:52:47 PM
Agreed, can't have Brunt, Barry and Livemore starting for me. They will have rings ran around them.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 23, 2020, 09:13:51 PM
Agree about finding width in advanced areas as teams are playing quite narrow in order to stifle Pereira and Sawyers - although Pereira being suspended changes things again.

I agree that the midfield isn't functioning that well and in light of Pereira being out suspended, I'd like to see this change:

Johnstone

Furlong
Hegazi
Ajayi
Ferguson

Harper
Sawyers
Krovinovic

Phillips
Robson-Kanu
Edwards

This hopefully will give Sawyers some more space as both Krovinovic and arguably Harper are better at receiving the ball on the half turn than Livermore so should give the opposition more to think about. I think if we go for a three we do need players who can break the lines and Harper can certainly do that as can Krovinovic.

I like that team the other option is 3 5 2 with width from wingbacks Austin and HRK up top sawyers barry krovonovic as middle 3
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 24, 2020, 01:13:47 AM
Over the next couple of weeks in the absence of Pereira we are patching things up as with absence of Diangana we have two options either keep the same basic shape and drop in the best alternative we have or change shape.

If we are keeping a 4-2-3-1 then putting Harper into the 10 role seems to be most sensible option.

For me Sawyers and Krovinovic doesn't work as a combination they are essentially both play makers the only difference being where they have typically played on the pitch either deep lying or advanced.

If I was to go down the path of a 4-3-3

It might look like this

Johnstone

Furlong
O'Shea
Bartley
Townsend

Livermore
Ajayi

Sawyers

Robson-Kanu
Austin
Phillips

I am inverting the wingers. I could be persuaded to swap Phillips for Edwards or Willock. Ajayi is there to add athleticism to the midfield and to provide cover for the full backs who are going to be providing the attacking width. O'Shea is in for Hegazi on the basis he can pass a football.

I fully accept this not an optimal solution and I not sure I like the amount of change in personnel required but we are were we are and some sort of alternative is required.

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 25, 2020, 07:52:08 PM
Agreed, can't have Brunt, Barry and Livemore starting for me. They will have rings ran around them.

Well, two of them started today away to a Prem team and it worked out OK. I don't think Livermore being in the side as well would throw the balance of the team out that much to make it have rings ran around them in the Championship.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 25, 2020, 08:15:41 PM
They struggled. I don't think they did particularly well. They did try their best though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 25, 2020, 08:42:01 PM
They struggled. I don't think they did particularly well. They did try their best though.

They didn't struggle at all, even when we went down to 10 men.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 25, 2020, 08:43:33 PM
They did to my eyes. Barry looked shot within about 15 minutes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 25, 2020, 09:04:22 PM
They did to my eyes. Barry looked shot within about 15 minutes.

Sure. Barry was excellent and we dominated most of the play bar the last 10 minutes, but that was understandable.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 25, 2020, 09:12:17 PM
We saw things differently let's leave it at that.

Agree we dominated play but i don't put that down to those 2 in particular.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 26, 2020, 05:44:29 PM
The answer is staring us in the face has been all season. We saw it in action yesterday. Brunt and Barry were imperious.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on January 26, 2020, 05:51:42 PM
Unfortunately not in the same league as was Noble for them.
When he came on, he governed the game.
Any chance of a cheeky poach?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 26, 2020, 06:13:11 PM
Yeah Noble ran the show when he came on. Never seen a worse PL centre mid than Sanchez, he seems even worse than when he was at Villa.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 26, 2020, 06:19:17 PM
Noble ran the show AFTER the red card. We bossed the game 11 vs 11.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on January 26, 2020, 06:29:26 PM
The answer is staring us in the face has been all season. We saw it in action yesterday. Brunt and Barry were imperious.
Imperious against a very, very pooh WHU who had no heart, no idea plus the added embarrassment of playing no heart and no idea Sanchez 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 26, 2020, 07:27:25 PM
Brunt and Barry will never get an easier game than against Sanchez.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 26, 2020, 07:48:30 PM
Jeepers.


They weren't against Sanchez, he sat in front of the West Ham defence and Brunt and Barry sat in front of ours.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on January 27, 2020, 12:14:19 PM
I think Brunt and Barry have earned the right to play v Cardiff and maybe beyond.  It looks to me as if Livermore and Sawyers have both lost confidence.  Maybe Sawyers lacks a bit of mental strength.  Certainly Livermore's technique has been shown up in the last few games.  Krovinovic should continue in the hole.

Austin should also play as a more genuine out and out goalscorer.  HRK can be effective when Diangana and Pereira play.  Having him in now is not an option.

Up to now teams have sussed how to play against us and it's time to unveil Plan B.

We must be more assertive and get the opening goal and take control of games. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on January 27, 2020, 12:20:35 PM
It should be a different game away than back at the Hawthorns. Teams playing on their home patch feel obliged to make a more open game of it which should suit us more. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Maresca Was A Baggie on January 28, 2020, 09:44:53 PM
I'm seriously starting to wonder if Slav knows how to get us out of this slump. It's now a case of lose. Change nothing. Repeat. Lose. Change nothing. Repeat etc etc. This is exactly what happened to him at West Ham. He dint have a plan when this vs started to go pear shape. We could be out of the playoff places in the next 3 weeks if we don't pull our fingers out. We have a very thin squad. No wide players on the bench tonight. And I'm not including Brunt as he hasn't the legs to play there. This ain't looking good. Fail to beat  Luton and I fear there will be rumblings.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 28, 2020, 09:45:58 PM
Seems to be another 1 trick pony. Same as DM, no plan B. Once he was found out that was it.

Results WILL improve when we get those 4 first teamers back but will it be too late by then.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on January 28, 2020, 09:50:27 PM
He have to make a few really simple improvements...

SJ, Bartley, Livermore, HRK all out. Bond, Ajayi, Barry and Austin in. This is 100% needed. There's more though.

Edwards is pants when he starts.

I was wrong about Fergie coming in for Townsend. Furlong HAS to start at RB if fit. O'Shea hasn't done anything wrong but Furlong deserves to start.

Same formation but....

Bond, Furlong, Ajayi, Hegazi, Townsend/ Brunt, Barry, Sawyers, Phillips, Krovinovic, Robinson (if joining), Austin.

That's 7 players that didn't start tonight ALL with a point to prove.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on January 28, 2020, 10:00:11 PM

Bond, Furlong, Ajayi, Hegazi, Townsend/ Brunt, Barry, Sawyers, Phillips, Krovinovic, Robinson (if joining), Austin.


That team above doesn't include Gibbs, Pereira, Diangana. With them back i'd probably go 433.
Bond, Furlong, Ajayi, Hegazi, Gibbs, Barry, Sawyers, Pereira, Diangana, Phillips/Robinson, Austin.

Who knows if we sign Orsic or another.

There is hope. It just doesn't feel like it right now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tlms-p23 on January 28, 2020, 11:05:16 PM
Go 433. We've been worked out. Extra body in midfield - ideally Harper? Get him bombing on from deeper and joining attacks late. And good GOD please let us sign someone with pace up front. We are SO static up top. 

Drop Phillips he's knackered, Pereira on the right cutting in, Robinson (if it comes off) on the left cutting in. Natural full-backs overlapping.

September-December everyone we played sat off us, showed us respect and hoped for a point. 4 points in 7 games suggests that's a thing of the past.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 28, 2020, 11:09:57 PM
It's not a difficult game.


Bond


Furlong
Ajayi
Hegazi
Gibbs


Barry
Brunt


Phillips
Pereira
Diangana


Austin


That's currently the best team barring injuries and suspensions and without reinforcements.


Start from there and adapt if needed.


Priorities in the window should be a goalkeeper and a true box to box central midfielder who can tackle AND be comfortable in possession and can pass.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on January 28, 2020, 11:26:24 PM
With what's available at the moment id go with this for Luton

                                             Bond

Furlong.        O Shea.                   Ajayi.   Townsend

                           Barry.              Sawyers

                                 Krovinovic

 Willock.                   Austin.               Tulloch

Subs. Al habsi. Bartley.  Harper.  Edwards. Zohore. Brunt. Ferguson
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Astle1968 on January 29, 2020, 12:01:28 PM
I'd like to see us move away from 4231 even if just to get us out of this rut.

For Luton I'd go

Johnstone

Furlong
Ajayi
Hegazi
Townsend

Harper
Sawyers
Brunt

Phillips
Austin
Krovinovic

HRK is only worth his place in the team if it's to get the best out of the 3 behind him like earlier in the season. With 2 of them missing and Phillips off form I'd start with Austin.

On paper Ajayi and Hegazi are our best 2 cb's and have barely played together so I'd give them a run.

Moving forward when everyone is back I'd like to see

Johnstone
Furlong
Ajayi
Hegazi
Ferguson/Brunt

Harper
Sawyers
Perreira

Phillips
Austin
Diangana

Possibly Robinson in for Phillips but can't say until I've seen him play more. Livermore/Barry in for Phillips when we want to be a bit tighter in the middle and Perreia off the right. I'd give Harper a run of games as we've become to predictable and need something a bit different in the middle and although I wouldn't completely scrap 4231 for good I want to see us mix things up a bit for the next 4/6 games. With how we are playing at the moment Brunt in the side gives us much more as his passing gets us up the pitch and through the lines plus also gives us an extra option from set pieces.

Still got plenty of faith in Bilic and feel the few calls for him to be sacked are ridiculous, but he has been on runs like this before and struggled to turn it around once on them and it would concern me if we just set up like for like again on Saturday without trying to change anything.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on January 29, 2020, 03:24:38 PM
Billic has to get the forward problem sorted out. He seems to favour HRK but that really limits us. HRK has a physical presence and can hold the ball up and bring others up the pitch, but that's about it. As a main striker you need more. He can't move the ball quickly in tight spaces and he can't turn quickly. When he tries to knock the ball past his marker he is always too slow. Last night v Cardiff he never got on the end of anything. That's not entirely his fault if the crosses are inaccurate, but a good striker sniffs out half chances. Its no good just expecting to use his physicality to force his way through.
Austin is much more of an instinctive goalscorer,  and I'd prefer him to start, but he doesn't contribute much in the build up and doesn't always deliver.

That's why Billic has to find another striker with a genuine goal instinct, though it won't be easy in the current market. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on January 29, 2020, 07:55:33 PM
Genuine goal instinct AND decent pace which is where Austin falls down big time of course.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 30, 2020, 05:39:31 AM
If we sign gorlicki he has to start the weekend along with Robinson and krov. (Phillip's has needed dropping for a while) behind austin. We need 3 points.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on January 30, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
" HRK has a physical presence and can hold the ball up and bring others up the pitch, but that's about it,"

Most of the time he doesn't even do that though.  His second touch is a tackle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 30, 2020, 09:05:25 AM
The slump has been characterised by 2 things

1. We are letting in too many soft goals
2. We have struggled to create many clear cut scoring opportunities against teams who either defended deep or with a compressed passive high line e.g. Stoke and before that Barnsley at home.

The answer is always recruitment. The answer is always recruit another striker. When we had Gayle and Rodreguiz scoring for fun last year last year the answer was recruit a striker.

The answer might be recruitment but unless you hire a whole new team (which presents it's own challenges) a coach is nearly always largely dependent on the existing group to get out of a rut.

I always return to the concept of balance. Imbalanced sides have structural weaknesses which their opponents exploit balanced ones less so.

While Diangana is out we have become imbalanced because we have not found a solution to the left footed wide player (whether played left or right it does not alter the imbalance) . Not only have we lost one of our better players but the balance of the side has been disrupted in that the 3 behind the striker are less fluid the point of attack and goal threat are only really coming from one direction.

The obvious solution is go hire a left footed wide player after all Diangana is only on loan at some point we will have to go into the market and make a signing. I can tell you without fear of contradiction in the market place that we are operating there are hardly any good options and we were extremely fortunate to get Diangana and in January there is virtually nothing. Hence we are stocking up with alternatives Robinson and Grosicki to shuffle the pack in the attacking midfield area.

This weekend we are without Pereira but by Millwall I could see Pereira playing wide right Robinson in the 10 and Grosicki wide left. For this weekend I would put Brunt out wide and probably keep faith with Phillips as Grosicki is arriving too late to be thrown straight into the starting 11.

That is the quick fix to one of our biggest issues.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 30, 2020, 02:27:22 PM
Just seen a tweet from a championship football account, suggesting that after Leeds (11) and Brentford (12) pur total of 13 goals conceded from open play is third lowest in the league.

If true, it highlights just how bad we are at defending set pieces.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Windmill Baggy on January 30, 2020, 05:07:26 PM
Just seen a tweet from a championship football account, suggesting that after Leeds (11) and Brentford (12) pur total of 13 goals conceded from open play is third lowest in the league.

If true, it highlights just how bad we are at defending set pieces.

Here are the stats:

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/7840/Stages/17629/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2019-2020

We've conceded 13 from set-pieces. That's 2 more than Leeds and 5 more than Forest. We've conceded 3-4 more from set-pieces than the 'average'.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 02, 2020, 11:06:44 AM
With what we did in the transfer window, we have a multitude of options on both wings and in the hole.  Austin, HRK and Zohote look so unconving up front.  I'd try Robinson as centre forward and not use any of the 3 natural options.  Also still not completely sold on Sawyers and Livermore.  I still say Ajayi could do a job centre midfield with the attacking flair we now possess. You still have O:Neill, Hegazi and Bartley competing for 2 positions.  Baffling that Furlong is not at right back.

I want to see us driving at teams home or away and scoring early to put them on the back foot.  The theme of the losing run has been not scoring early and allowing opposition to grow into the game with forwards not scoring.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 02, 2020, 11:36:41 AM
We shouldn't be judging any of our personnel based on yesterdays game, that Luton side is the worst league side we've played since the late 90s.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 02, 2020, 11:46:15 AM
We shouldn't be judging any of our personnel based on yesterdays game, that Luton side is the worst league side we've played since the late 90s.

It's another game with our forwards not scoring.  Worrying that neither has hit double figures yet and they seem easily negated by the opposition in open play.  If Luton were really that bad then someone like the Kevin Phillips of old would've bagged a couple.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 02, 2020, 11:57:59 AM
It's another game with our forwards not scoring.  Worrying that neither has hit double figures yet and they seem easily negated by the opposition in open play.  If Luton were really that bad then someone like the Kevin Phillips of old would've bagged a couple.


The Mowbray side would have won 4 or 5 yesterday.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 02, 2020, 12:09:20 PM

The Mowbray side would have won 4 or 5 yesterday.

Agreed. They'd have made mincemeat out of Bartley and Johnstone in particular  ;D  ;) .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 12, 2020, 12:22:38 AM
First real change of formation at the weekend with a switch to a 4-3-3

There are a couple of notable features

Firstly the wide forwards are inverted Pereira playing wide right and Robinson wide left. Secondly Bilic dropped the double pivot with Livermore pushing up alongside Krovinovic.

While I still have reservations about a central midfield 3 with both Sawyers and Krovinovic in it I think with the 3 forwards pushing on it creates the space for Krovinovic to get on the ball with a little bit more time than when he is pushed further forward as a 10.

The other noteworthy development is that O'Shea seems to have picked up the Ferguson role of the defensive full back as a counter balance and cover for the attacking full back on the other flank.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on March 08, 2020, 07:35:08 AM
Is this the start of our second "blip"?
Have teams realised that we play a lot of nice football but no direct route towards their goal?
We seem to be afraid of getting into the box.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on March 08, 2020, 09:06:31 AM
Is this the start of our second "blip"?
Have teams realised that we play a lot of nice football but no direct route towards their goal?
We seem to be afraid of getting into the box.
100% the amount of times yesterday we had Townsend ,Robinson and Krov in the final left third and still failed to get the ball in the box was embarrassing....this is why grosiki and Edwards need game time (one or both) they get the ball and go for the line/box...it doesn’t come off every time and the crowd needs to have patience but these two are effective given enough time on the pitch.....3=5=2 will get us the wins we need , wide players that can get up and down , plus we can overload and overpower in midfield , Robinson through the middle to give us that electric breaking option, next to Kanu who holds up and runs the channels..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on March 08, 2020, 09:39:44 AM
Is this the start of our second "blip"?
Have teams realised that we play a lot of nice football but no direct route towards their goal?
We seem to be afraid of getting into the box.
We have no height, so they know they can crowd the middle and force us out wide and we won't cross it, we just go back inside and across again
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mo on March 08, 2020, 09:53:41 AM

The Mowbray side would have won 4 or 5 yesterday.

As much as he has had a better season any team that gets promoted with Robson Kanu up front is no mean feat .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 08, 2020, 11:07:12 AM
Is this the start of our second "blip"?
Have teams realised that we play a lot of nice football but no direct route towards their goal?
We seem to be afraid of getting into the box.

Just looked at the highlights, & getting into the box doesn't seem to be a problem, we just can't finish at the moment.
I don't see anybody on the bench who's going to solve that either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 08, 2020, 12:14:44 PM
The way to defend against us is to pack the middle force us wide and into making crosses into the box which in terms of defending is nearly always the easiest threat to defend against almost regardless of the team you are facing. To do this though as the defending team you are often negating your own goal threat and sacrificing possession. As strategy it works until you concede at which point you either have to change it up or nearly certainly concede defeat.

I expect Blues to adopt the exact same tactics next week and along with 7 out of our next 9 opponents. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on March 08, 2020, 12:29:23 PM
The way to defend against us is to pack the middle force us wide and into making crosses into the box which in terms of defending is nearly always the easiest threat to defend against almost regardless of the team you are facing. To do this though as the defending team you are often negating your own goal threat and sacrificing possession. As strategy it works until you concede at which point you either have to change it up or nearly certainly concede defeat.

I expect Blues to adopt the exact same tactics next week and along with 7 out of our next 9 opponents.

I saw a bit of the Blues game at Leicester and they did exactly that. Deep, resolute, the odd counter. I think it's going to be important to start quick and go at them before they settle into a low block. On the plus side they have been leaking goals like a sieve in the league, including three against Reading so we have to be confident. We just need to get the ball forwards a bit quicker. We controlled phases of the game against Swansea and possession but were too content passing it around in front of them. We can be a bit bolder next weekend.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on March 08, 2020, 03:27:05 PM
I saw a bit of the Blues game at Leicester and they did exactly that. Deep, resolute, the odd counter. I think it's going to be important to start quick and go at them before they settle into a low block. On the plus side they have been leaking goals like a sieve in the league, including three against Reading so we have to be confident. We just need to get the ball forwards a bit quicker. We controlled phases of the game against Swansea and possession but were too content passing it around in front of them. We can be a bit bolder next weekend.
"Content" seems about right, there must have been a little nagging thought of a draw will do after Fulham and Forests results, can't blame them really, but Bilic didn't looked that impressed at times.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 20, 2020, 06:44:31 PM
That was predictable  to a degree. Blues set up with a deep sitting block well organised and very little ambition and did well defensively  against us.

We set up in a 4-2-3-1 as opposed to a 4-3-3 (double eight) this meant moving Pereira into the 10 role and starting Robinson and Phillips on the wings. Not a fan of this and it didn't work particularly well. If we were going down this path I would have preferred to to see a combination of Phillips/Robinson and Diangana. In any event I prefer to see Pereira coming in from the left he gets more space and gets on the ball further forward.

It might have been better to have Krovinovic on the pitch but that is near impossible to in a 4-2-3-1 although it is probably overly defensive against teams as unambitious  as Blues.

   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 20, 2020, 08:55:42 PM
That was predictable  to a degree. Blues set up with a deep sitting block well organised and very little ambition and did well defensively  against us.

We set up in a 4-2-3-1 as opposed to a 4-3-3 (double 8) this meant moving Pereira into the 10 role and starting Robinson and Phillips on the wings. Not a fan of this and it didn't work particularly well. If we were going down this path I would have preferred to to see a combination of Phillips/Robinson and Diangana. In any event I prefer to see Pereira coming in from the left he gets more space and gets on the ball further forward.

It might have been better to have Krovinovic on the pitch but that is near impossible to in a 4-2-3-1 although it is probably overly defensive against teams as unambitious  as Blues.
I agree with much of that except that I wouldn't so much blame the tactics, as the players implementing them. 'Spread it wide' when in possession is a good principle meaning having 2 widemen who stretch defences and go at defenders. Phillips and Robinson played wide but didn't deliver enough quality into the box, but equally, the moves started by Sawyers, Livermore and Pereira broke down because the final pass/flick was inaccurate poorly weighted or poorly timed. This is also because the players don't anticipate one another well enough. Just needs lots more practice at passing the ball around in tight situations. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 21, 2020, 08:16:36 AM
I agree with much of that except that I wouldn't so much blame the tactics, as the players implementing them. 'Spread it wide' when in possession is a good principle meaning having 2 widemen who stretch defences and go at defenders. Phillips and Robinson played wide but didn't deliver enough quality into the box, but equally, the moves started by Sawyers, Livermore and Pereira broke down because the final pass/flick was inaccurate poorly weighted or poorly timed. This is also because the players don't anticipate one another well enough. Just needs lots more practice at passing the ball around in tight situations.

Our lack of match sharpness was self evident yesterday with the interchanges that didn't come off. Crosses into a packed box are hugely ineffective it is the mode of attack that a deep sitting block is almost goading the opposition to adopt. Tactically we fell a little bit between two stools.

We need to do something different against Brentford who are an entirely different challenge.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on June 21, 2020, 08:27:09 AM
We have too many players who like three or four touches of the ball every time they receive it, this is why we struggle to break teams down. Pereira, R-Kanu, Diangana, Phillips, Sawyers - all particularly guilty of this.

There is no one touch, very limited two touch. All too slow.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 21, 2020, 01:48:11 PM
We have too many players who like three or four touches of the ball every time they receive it, this is why we struggle to break teams down. Pereira, R-Kanu, Diangana, Phillips, Sawyers - all particularly guilty of this.

There is no one touch, very limited two touch. All too slow.
Yes. Ideally also, you need forward(s) playing on the last man, who can react quickly to a short pass or flick so they are through one on one with the keeper.  But we don't have any. HRK certainly not as he completly lacks pace and turns like treacle. Not sure either whether Austin has enough pace. If anything, Phillips might be worth a try in that position.
Also, when playing the ball around outside the penalty box, you need players who can spot pockets of space and run into them at the right moment. The more congested it is, the more difficult that gets.
The quality of passing into that area is also crucial. The best we have is Pereira though Krovinovic has a good eye. Sawyers also. This is where Livermore can't do it. His touch is heavy which means alot of his passes are over hit. He can hit the odd worldy in from 25 yards, but generally Livermore is best as a ball winner playing deeper.

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on June 21, 2020, 04:20:58 PM
Yes. Ideally also, you need forward(s) playing on the last man, who can react quickly to a short pass or flick so they are through one on one with the keeper.  But we don't have any. HRK certainly not as he completly lacks pace and turns like treacle. Not sure either whether Austin has enough pace. If anything, Phillips might be worth a try in that position.
Also, when playing the ball around outside the penalty box, you need players who can spot pockets of space and run into them at the right moment. The more congested it is, the more difficult that gets.
The quality of passing into that area is also crucial. The best we have is Pereira though Krovinovic has a good eye. Sawyers also. This is where Livermore can't do it. His touch is heavy which means alot of his passes are over hit. He can hit the odd worldy in from 25 yards, but generally Livermore is best as a ball winner playing deeper.

This is exactly why Robinson should be deployed as the striker in a 433. He's not the greatest finisher but no worse than HRK or Zohore, he's also greedy and pretty quick. It then allows us to get Diangana on the left wing as well.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on June 27, 2020, 02:56:57 AM
I'm going to bring my original topic back to life. We ain't scored or won for 4 games and are in danger of really ballsing up promotion.

My take is 4 2 3 1 ain't working and we looked better when krovonovic come on and made it 4 3 3. But still it didn't work properly.

Should we do what del bosque and go no strikers full 6 midfielders? Not for me.

Should we go 442? Do we finally have the personnel for this system?

My take is we have 7 or 8 games left sides are sitting back against us before lockdown now there is no home crowds to will sides on so sides will sit in against us more. We have lacked tempo and struggled to break sides down. We need to take risks I would change the system to;

3 4 1 2 back 3 either oshea or bartley coming in. Midfield 4 be it flat or a diamond. Periera in the free role and then austin and Zohore/hrk up top. (Austin needs to be in a 2 or is a waste of a shirt)

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 27, 2020, 03:04:20 AM
System is fine, back 4 is fine the rest they need to rip up with only Pereira justifying his place in the front 6.

We need to consider at the very least Grosicki, Brunt and Austin, at the VERY least.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 27, 2020, 07:45:29 AM
There are a couple of shape and personnel things which I think are interlinked.

If we want to get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch at the same time that is a 4-2-3-1 with Diangana wide left and Pereira in the 10 role. The problem is then further back is that there isn't a double pivot that works or rather because of the personnel it sits too deep.

This has number of impacts either a gapping hole between front five. Or the 3 drop deep as a unit or individually but this means that the creative players either aren't getting the ball at all or are getting it in positions where they aren't hurting the opposition. This happened a lot last night.

The 4-3-3 double 8 with inverted wide attackers fixes the problem but we lose either Diangana or Pereira from the line up or we skew the whole team to the left. Pereira is best coming in from the right he plays a few yards further forward and that is where we need him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on June 27, 2020, 07:56:29 AM
There are a couple of shape and personnel things which I think are interlinked.

If we want to get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch at the same time that is a 4-2-3-1 with Diangana wide left and Pereira in the 10 role. The problem is then further back is that there isn't a double pivot that works or rather because of the personnel it sits too deep.

This has number of impacts either a gapping whole between front five. Or the 3 drop deep as a unit or individually but this means that the creative players either aren't getting the ball at all or are getting it in positions where they aren't hurting the opposition. This happened a lot last night.

The 4-3-3 double 8 with inverted wide attackers fixes the problem but we lose either Diangana or Pereira from the line up or we skew the whole team to the left. Pereira is best coming in from the right he plays a few yards further forward and that is where we need him.

All these left-footed attackers eh?!

I think we can go 433 with Pereira and Diangana switching sides but I do agree we wouldn't be getting the best from either of them when on the left.

I think we have to have Austin in, or Robinson with HRK and Zohore 3rd and 4th choice.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 27, 2020, 07:58:30 AM
I think our issues still resolve the centre of midfield as they have done in recent seasons, we are better in this area this year but I am not sure it's right still.

If we play Sawyers as a deep lying playmaker and not a number 8 then he is probably most effective in a midfield 3 as he is weak defensively and in a 4231 the space either side of the midfield 2 exposes this. Livermore isn't a monster off the ball so doesnt cover his defienecies in this area. My thoughts for the long term are, is Sawyers good enough for us to build our midfield around? I thought yes earlier in the season but am unsure now.

Livermore isn't a specialist in any area so the 3 suits him as he can be an all-rounder of sorts and go box to box but of course we need more going forward and in the league above would need a ball winner to compliment Sawyers.

I'd be tempted to try a 433 with a folding midfielder, think it has to be Livermore as Barry can't move and Harper is a more offensive midfield player and play Sawyers and Krovinovic as two 8s, a little how City use Silva and De Bruyne. It may help us creatively, which we are currently lacking but I thing big question marks over Livermore as the holder and teams will be able to disrupt our play higher up the field as Livernore isn't that good on the ball, we would likely have to feed Krovinovic and Sawyers from full back or direct from cbs.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 27, 2020, 09:00:49 AM
I don't think we have lot of options in central midfield. Sawyers is a deep sitting playmaker and is fine as such although it seems that as the season has progressed his passing range has become more conservative. I don't know whether this is because he has been told to be more cautious or because as the prize of promotion has come into view he does not want to be the player to make the expensive mistake.

Personally I would go with Krovinovic and Livermore in a double 8. We win the ball back further up the pitch we have Krovinovic' s passing ability in a relatively advanced position. The downside is that if a team breaks the initial press then they are through on Sawyers and the 2 Centre Backs particularly if our full backs have committed forward. I must admit I did like the extra bit of insurance that a naturally defensively inclined full back such as Ferguson or latterly O'Shea gave us.

Overall I think we should revert to the 4-3-3 and that means Diangana is likely to be fairly lightly used between now and the end of the season.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 27, 2020, 10:14:26 AM
We have to approach each game as though we are the underdogs and outwork the opposition - that should be the mindset from here on in.
Part of that is getting an early grip on the game in midfield. I agree Krov and Livermore in front of Sawyers should now be used.
Pereira has to play so that would be on the left. I think I would be tempted to give Robinson a go through the middle and Diangana would be fitted in on the right - hopefully he'll improve further with a couple of games under his belt and with him, Pereira, Krov and Sawyers in the team we should be able to keep hold of the ball.

Hope Bilic reminds them they have to outwork the opposition and the players get on the pitch with the right energy levels i.e. not under-cooked and not over-trained, whatever it is something's not right at the moment. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on June 27, 2020, 10:17:37 AM
Interesting thoughts.  Post Blues I advocated going in with a false 9 (effectively 4-6-0).  Our best attacking outlets in order of ability are Pereira, Diangana, Krovinovic.  They all MUST play.  Livermore and Phillips are very lucky to still be on the team sheet, we have back up options in Grosicki, Robinson, Edwards, Barry, Brunt, Harper. 

We are wasting a position selecting a forward because none are up to the mark.  I'd doubt if Austin could last much longer than 45mins.  HRK is not good enough.

This formation would result in us being tougher to break down.  On reflection last night we conceded a cheap goal, which was avoidable, from not one single challenge from a player in yellow and green.  I think we'd have all been satisfied with a 0-0. 

We'd still be capable of scoring with a False 9, if the interplay and movement from our attacking midfielders / wingers was sharp enough. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 27, 2020, 11:24:41 AM
I think alot depends on getting the right balance in midfield. I would argue that 5 should be the bare minimum of attacking or creative players. Yesterday we started with just 3 forwards plus Pereira supporting them. Furlong and Gibbs hardly crossed the half way line. That wasn't enough to put the Brentford defence under any sustained pressure.

I don't think you can play Livermore AND Sawyers. They are both too defensive. Livermore tries to support the attack but his passing and touch are not good enough for a creative role. Sawyers is better in that , but for some reason, hardly ventures into the opposition box. You need players making runs forward into the box as that's how lots of goals are scored. You can't leave it all to Pereira for the creativity. We definitely looked more threatening after Krovinovic came on and Livermore went off.
Harper can maybe develop into a creative midfielder, but he needs to impose himself more in games, want the ball and make the right runs etc.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on June 27, 2020, 03:07:57 PM
We don't have time to wait for Diangana to improve in a couple of games mate.
We need goals and wins he's a suoersub type guy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 27, 2020, 05:51:57 PM
I think alot depends on getting the right balance in midfield. I would argue that 5 should be the bare minimum of attacking or creative players. Yesterday we started with just 3 forwards plus Pereira supporting them. Furlong and Gibbs hardly crossed the half way line. That wasn't enough to put the Brentford defence under any sustained pressure.

I don't think you can play Livermore AND Sawyers. They are both too defensive. Livermore tries to support the attack but his passing and touch are not good enough for a creative role. Sawyers is better in that , but for some reason, hardly ventures into the opposition box. You need players making runs forward into the box as that's how lots of goals are scored. You can't leave it all to Pereira for the creativity. We definitely looked more threatening after Krovinovic came on and Livermore went off.
Harper can maybe develop into a creative midfielder, but he needs to impose himself more in games, want the ball and make the right runs etc.
I think you can play them...but you can’t play JUST them in the middle
If there is a 3 and you include Krov, this instantly improves the area....if you drop Livermore for Harper or Semi, this then increases the athleticism and gives us quite a good core
Whatever happens we will not get top two with the players playing the formation Bilic has picked since the return
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on June 27, 2020, 07:14:16 PM
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on June 27, 2020, 07:24:47 PM
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different

I realise you're just throwing ideas out there but for a team that's short of goals the solution isn't changing the left back. In addition Gibbs has 3 Albion goals, Townsend just the 1.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Aztech on June 27, 2020, 07:46:08 PM
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different

Townsend, Kanu and Zohore are all league one players. They shouldn’t be anywhere near our starting 11.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on June 27, 2020, 07:50:18 PM
People are focusing on the wrong things and it's probably to be expected because of how bad we are. I've seen loads of suggestions of changes which fix nothing. Thankfully Bilic seems to see the actual issues as evidenced by the changes he made at HT, sadly it was too late and I don't think Zohore is the answer.

Quite simply, the double-pivot doesn't work: Livermore is terrible at football and Sawyers is the worst defensively of any centre mid I think I've ever seen. They need another body in there as we have no other options to replace them (Barry, Brunt and Harper don't work), hence it needs to be a 433. Krov has proven he is best as an 8, and was unjustifiably dropped when that midfield was actually working.

Striker issue is simple for me at this point, all 3 are dogs**t. Austin would have got the nod but his fitness is Sunday League level. We have a proven Championship goalscorer in Robinson who has experience of playing as a striker. He's far quicker, fitter and better technically than the other 3. That also allows us to play an extra winger, which is the position we are strongest in. Grady and Grosicki can rotate on the left for me.

Back 5 are fine, I think the best 5 are the ones currently starting and any changes just make us worse in possession for marginal gains defensively.

Livermore then becomes the only weak link technically, which you'd hope we can carry as everyone else is comfortable on the ball:

Johnstone
Furlong - Ajayi - Hegazi - Gibbs
Livermore - Sawyers - Krovinovic
Pereira - Robinson - Diangana/Grosicki
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pie on June 27, 2020, 09:02:24 PM
People are focusing on the wrong things and it's probably to be expected because of how bad we are. I've seen loads of suggestions of changes which fix nothing. Thankfully Bilic seems to see the actual issues as evidenced by the changes he made at HT, sadly it was too late and I don't think Zohore is the answer.

Quite simply, the double-pivot doesn't work: Livermore is terrible at football and Sawyers is the worst defensively of any centre mid I think I've ever seen. They need another body in there as we have no other options to replace them (Barry, Brunt and Harper don't work), hence it needs to be a 433. Krov has proven he is best as an 8, and was unjustifiably dropped when that midfield was actually working.

Striker issue is simple for me at this point, all 3 are dogs**t. Austin would have got the nod but his fitness is Sunday League level. We have a proven Championship goalscorer in Robinson who has experience of playing as a striker. He's far quicker, fitter and better technically than the other 3. That also allows us to play an extra winger, which is the position we are strongest in. Grady and Grosicki can rotate on the left for me.

Back 5 are fine, I think the best 5 are the ones currently starting and any changes just make us worse in possession for marginal gains defensively.

Livermore then becomes the only weak link technically, which you'd hope we can carry as everyone else is comfortable on the ball:

Johnstone
Furlong - Ajayi - Hegazi - Gibbs
Livermore - Sawyers - Krovinovic
Pereira - Robinson - Diangana/Grosicki

I agree with this. We have to play 4-3-3 from now on. I'm kind of perplexed as to why we went back to the other formtion against Brum and first half at Brentford.

I still beleive we will get enough points to see us over the line in the automatics. Just made it harder for ourselves.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Westie on June 27, 2020, 09:42:22 PM
Townsend, Kanu and Zohore are all league one players. They shouldn’t be anywhere near our starting 11.

I think Zohore would struggle to make the mark in League Two.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on June 27, 2020, 10:30:14 PM
Robinson who has an eye for a goal, a bit of pace and is a striker should be played up front with pace and quality in support of him. Pereira in the number 10 role as that's his best position. Diangana and Grosicki out wide as they are our quickest and most direct wingers. I'd exchange Livermore for Krov alongside Sawyers depending on the opposition. So if we are faced with all out defence we can be more attacking, else if it's a tricky away game Livermore can start and put himself about. At the back Townsend has more desire and heart than Gibbs, who didn't deserve his recall. Ajayi and Bartley together have been our best centre back partnership. Not afraid to push up the pitch unlike Hegazi and they score more from free kicks and corners. Right back Furlong or O'Shea. I'd probably go with O'Shea at the moment as we are in a slump and he is better defensively.

This is how I would set us up:


                         Robinson

                               Pereira
Diangana                                      Grosicki
                 Sawyers, Livermore or Krov

Townsend,     Ajayi,      Bartley,        O'Shea or Furlong

                         Johnstone

That leaves the impact subs as:
Austin
Phillips
Edwards

I would expect that front four with Krov sometimes in support and the subs to do a lot of damage and the back-line is the most dependable we have and the only settled back four that has looked solid this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on June 27, 2020, 11:13:13 PM
I'm not saying he can't but I don't understand why people think Robinson could play up front as a lone striker for us? He played on the left wing for Preston and as the deeper of two centre forwards for Sheffield United (unsuccessfully arguably). Our game requires the striker to.hold the ball and link the play, I just don't see Robinson as that man. I do get the desperation as we do not have good options but in terms of profile, Robson-Kanu suits us the best out of the admittedly weak options.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on June 28, 2020, 02:17:47 PM
Robinson wouldn't need to hold the ball up with two wingers the midfield just need to give them the ball its up to robbo to be in the box on the end of crosses etc
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on June 29, 2020, 05:01:49 PM
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionFan on June 29, 2020, 06:36:46 PM
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore

I really like your line up, but, there’s always a but, Townsend over Gibbs for me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 29, 2020, 06:40:14 PM
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore
Who’s doing the tackling ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on June 29, 2020, 07:22:47 PM
Who’s doing the tackling ?

Since the come back seems to be a lot less tackling going on. If we are winning 3-2 or 9-8 frankly I don't care, so stuff the tackling !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 29, 2020, 07:38:36 PM
Since the come back seems to be a lot less tackling going on. If we are winning 3-2 or 9-8 frankly I don't care, so stuff the tackling !
Strangely you e actually hit it on the head
We are clearly sitting deeper...we shouldn’t, say balls to it and play like we can...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on June 29, 2020, 08:39:40 PM
Strangely you e actually hit it on the head
We are clearly sitting deeper...we shouldn’t, say balls to it and play like we can...

thanks (I think)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on June 29, 2020, 09:12:37 PM
thanks (I think)
It was meant in the positive 👍
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on June 29, 2020, 11:34:25 PM
Who’s doing the tackling ?

We wouldn't need as much tackling as we'd have more of the ball and wouldn't give it away as cheap. The opposition would also be cacking themselves given the range of different threats facing them. We'd have more legs to press the opposition to win it back quickly when we do lose it, like a championship version of Man City.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 02, 2020, 08:55:55 PM
We reverted to a 4-3-3 last night. Number of changes in personnel which we cannot be sure were tactical. rotational or to protect players who were carrying knocks.

The one clear tactical change was the introduction of Krovinovic in the double 8 ahead of Sawyers. That seems to make us a lot better going forward that and O'Shea playing right back gives Pereira more scope to play further up the pitch.

I am not sure that the shape accommodates both Pereira and Diangana. It strikes me that both Robinson and Grosicki are better options on the opposite wing to Pereira.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 10, 2020, 07:17:00 AM
Picking a few things up from the Bilic's Wednesday tactical masterclass.

The shape was 4-2-3-1 but for the first time with inverted wingers which was interesting. The other tweak was Livermore playing generally behind Sawyers in the double pivot.

The players executed the plan to perfection. The first goal demonstrates the havoc that inverted wingers can cause.

Grosicki receives the ball from Townsend in the wide left channel. Townsend continues his run inside Grosicki the Derby defender follows the  run to the edge of the box where he stops in line with the rest of the back 4 and lets Townsend run into an offside position.

At this stage Derby are well set to deal with the thing that isn't going to happen, a cross to a very well marshalled Austin. Grosicki moves inside on his right foot and picks the pass to one of the two runners (Pereira makes the same run as Diangana except from a deeper position)  making diagonal runs across the box through a defensive line that is still defending a cross.

The spatial awareness Diangana shows in executing the finish is exceptional but there isn't a defender within a yard of him when he collects the ball.

The other point about the wide players on Wednesday was generally without ball they stayed wide and even in possession really didn't cut infield until they were in Derby's half. During the first half what little threat Derby offered came down our left through Bogle. It was noticeable that Grosicki paid much closer attention to him during the second half and that threat pretty much dried up.

Whether this set up was something designed to counter Derby or a tactical shift remains to be seen.     



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 10, 2020, 09:04:49 AM
I feel like it may have been a Derby specific tactic but I liked it. It's a role that certainly suits Livermore more in my opinion and reduces Sawyers defensive deficiencies as he isn't the deepest midfielder whilst allowing him to play line breaking passes slightly further up the field. Although we did not dominate possession like we normally would have and this Livermore/Sawyers switch may be one of the reasons for that, hence why I think it was a Derby specific tactic. Should we get promoted, we will have more games where we do not have the most possession so this approach will be required more.

To touch on the wide players, be it a 4231 or a 433 i want either Grosicki or Robinson starting left and Pereira or Diangana starting right. I feel there's good balance with both wide players being inverted and also between players who generally like the ball to feet (Pereira/Diangana) and ones that are happy to threaten in behind (Grosicki/Robinson).

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 18, 2020, 06:56:40 AM
Following from the last few results and specifically the Huddersfield performance, unless we plan to set up a little deeper and play on the counter, I want to see 433. The wingers will be closer to the striker and it gives us more balance and control in the middle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 18, 2020, 07:20:38 AM
Following from the last few results and specifically the Huddersfield performance, unless we plan to set up a little deeper and play on the counter, I want to see 433. The wingers will be closer to the striker and it gives us more balance and control in the middle.

Agree. I suspect 4-2-3-1 is the only shape that accommodates both Pereira and Diangana which given that they are most effective attacking players on the face of it we should try to do that. However they both want to play in the same space on the pitch. Pereira is more easily marked in a central positions rather than when he is wide right. Overall we lose more than we gain in a 4-2-3-1. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on July 18, 2020, 08:59:46 AM
We're
Bloody
Awful
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 18, 2020, 10:43:51 AM
I also agree re 4-3-3.

We have frequently had problems with fairly ordinary sides who outnumber us in terms of genuine midfielders and also work harder/have more energy than us. Blackburn brought 4 pairs of fresh legs on while Sawyers was trying to be a one man midfield 2nd half v Blackburn. Huddersfield made 4 changes and had more snap and energy than we did. Barnsley, Charlton and Wigan have also given us all sorts of problems this season.

We haven't trusted Harper, and Brunt and Barry are correctly judged as being past it in terms of giving us much in CM - neither of them could cover the ground that Sawyers does when he is popping off passes. Livermore and especially Sawyers are knackered.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on July 18, 2020, 10:49:57 AM
Following from the last few results and specifically the Huddersfield performance, unless we plan to set up a little deeper and play on the counter, I want to see 433. The wingers will be closer to the striker and it gives us more balance and control in the middle.
matter of interest who would your wingers be ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on July 18, 2020, 11:04:15 AM
I would play Grosicki and Diangana / Pereira out wide but I don't think it matters what system we play or the exact combination of players who start if they play like blind drunk morons. Recently the players have crumbled under the pressure and are making basic mistake after basic mistake. Simple 5 yard passes under hit or overhit. No tempo or urgency to our game. Trying to walk the ball into the opposition goal. Inability to shoot on target except for straight at the opposition goal keeper! Not being to able to attack a set piece without running offside. Not concentrating at the back and defending properly. It's the really simple stuff that we have been useless at more than anything else.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on July 18, 2020, 11:12:25 AM
I would play Grosicki and Diangana / Pereira out wide but I don't think it matters what system we play or the exact combination of players who start if they play like blind drunk morons. Recently the players have crumbled under the pressure and are making basic mistake after basic mistake. Simple 5 yard passes under hit or overhit. No tempo or urgency to our game. Trying to walk the ball into the opposition goal. Inability to shoot on target except for straight at the opposition goal keeper! Not being to able to attack a set piece without running offside. Not concentrating at the back and defending properly. It's the really simple stuff that we have been useless at more than anything else.
Confidence comes from the manager and last night they personified his mood. For all his talk of psychology, Bilic body language been nervous and edgy since the restart.
Old habits die hard and, again, when the going got tough he was found wanting .
Shame because he gave us all such high hopes, just couldn’t get us over the line.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 18, 2020, 11:22:30 AM
matter of interest who would your wingers be ?

Robinson or Grosicki left and Pereira or Diangana right. Stan is probably correct above, 4231 is played because it accommodates them both. With the games coming thick and fast, heavy rotation between the 4 and the freshness it will bring could be beneficial.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on July 18, 2020, 11:35:10 AM
Robinson or Grosicki left and Pereira or Diangana right. Stan is probably correct above, 4231 is played because it accommodates them both.


Yep. Bilic is doing what England tried to do with Gerard, Lampard, Scholes for ages - trying to accomodate the most talented players.

It's wrong football is about the team and a team acomodating Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Cruff, Platini, Mbappe wins you nothing.

4-3-3 suits the team best with Krov in the middle, Pereira one side Grosicky the other.

Of course off that stable base you can tinker at times, maybe go with two out and out wingers or an extra defensive option in the midfield three etc (there are other variations) but you're always working off your solid base.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 18, 2020, 12:05:47 PM

Yep. Bilic is doing what England tried to do with Gerard, Lampard, Scholes for ages - trying to accomodate the most talented players.

It's wrong football is about the team and a team acomodating Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Cruff, Platini, Mbappe wins you nothing.

4-3-3 suits the team best with Krov in the middle, Pereira one side Grosicky the other.

Of course off that stable base you can tinker at times, maybe go with two out and out wingers or an extra defensive option in the midfield three etc (there are other variations) but you're always working off your solid base.

Could not agree more. The irony of course is that 4-3-3 with Scholes and latter Carrick as a deep sitting play maker and Lampard and Gerrard as a double 8 fixes that problem.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on July 18, 2020, 12:11:08 PM

Yep. Bilic is doing what England tried to do with Gerard, Lampard, Scholes for ages - trying to accomodate the most talented players.

It's wrong football is about the team and a team acomodating Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Cruff, Platini, Mbappe wins you nothing.

4-3-3 suits the team best with Krov in the middle, Pereira one side Grosicky the other.

Of course off that stable base you can tinker at times, maybe go with two out and out wingers or an extra defensive option in the midfield three etc (there are other variations) but you're always working off your solid base.

Yes happens at every tier of football sadly. Managers insist on trying to fit the best 11 individuals into the team no matter the cost but the best 11 are never the best starting xi
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 05, 2020, 08:26:31 AM
Following our double signing of Kipre and Diangana yesterday thought I would take stock of where we are and where we are heading over the coming weeks.


The current squad ages and contract expiry dates in brackets
                                                 
                                                           GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )                                                                                     
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea (20, 2023)           Ajayi (26,2023)     Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)       Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)      Bartley (28, 2021)      Kipre (23, 2024)    Townsend (27, 2021)
                                         

                                          6                                     6
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)             Livermore    (30,2022)
                                   Field  (21, 2022)                Harper (19,2022)                           
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Burke (22.2022)                                         
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023) 


In terms of numbers we have 22 players under contract at the moment which is about 2 short of the optimal number.

Tactically signing Diangana probably moves us to a 4-2-3-1 if for no other reason it is difficult to get both him and Pereira on the pitch in any other scenario or at least one that Bilic uses. Accepting this as a given and building around our two young forward stars where are we heading? 

We have reliable reports of interest in Krovinovic, Grant, Button and Robinson. If we just hire those that's a 26 man squad that is it and we probably need to lose a couple. There are reports of interest in Zohore and Robinson deal involves Burke going to Sheffield United, so that takes us to 24.

Adding those signings into the squad plugs most of the obvious gaps and whatever merits or demerits of the individual players it does expend most of the available budget.

The remaining concerns are the midfield which the signing of Krovinovic does little address. He is a player I much admire but his best position is an 8 in a 4-3-3 (double "8") he can fill in elsewhere but at this point we need a starter level 6 to play in the double pivot not squad depth.

The other issues are Goal Keeper but I don't think Bilic sees this as a short term priority we might get an additional back up but not the new first choice many fans crave.

The back four is okay and while I think we could upgrade left back I don't think we will be able to move Gibbs on and he is at least a serviceable option if he stays healthy and we just have to hope that he does.

Another forward option would be helpful but that and everything else depends on our ability to move some bodies on and or use the loan market to good effect. I would also be tempted to promote Tulloch to the squad he will get game time if he is good enough he is old enough.

The squad is starting to take shape signing Diangana is a major step forward but there is still work to be done but it won't be the dream team that fans want to see but it will have a chance. Regardless of where we land if you look at the expiry dates on the contracts there will be a turnover of players next summer and the squad we start next season will be very different to the one we start this.                                                   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on September 05, 2020, 08:37:24 AM
Good post. As you say we do look to be plugging some important gaps with Grant, Robinson etc, However, I have the same concerns on areas of the pitch where I’m not hearing of any transfer gossip...

Keeper - unless Johnstone can command his area more then we will continue to have issues in defence.

Left back - Gibbs is great but he will likely miss two thirds of the season and while I like Townsend I don’t believe his has enough.

Centre midfield - I actually like Field and I’m probably on my own thinking the Sawyers role is perfectly suited to him bu if he and Harper are the back up then I think we are seriously lacking experience in reserve. I’d love to think that Field and Harper could step up though.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 05, 2020, 09:03:25 AM
Good post. As you say we do look to be plugging some important gaps with Grant, Robinson etc, However, I have the same concerns on areas of the pitch where I’m not hearing of any transfer gossip...

Keeper - unless Johnstone can command his area more then we will continue to have issues in defence.

Left back - Gibbs is great but he will likely miss two thirds of the season and while I like Townsend I don’t believe his has enough.

Centre midfield - I actually like Field and I’m probably on my own thinking the Sawyers role is perfectly suited to him bu if he and Harper are the back up then I think we are seriously lacking experience in reserve. I’d love to think that Field and Harper could step up though.

Thanks. I wouldn't be too alarmed about the lack of rumours. If you consider the Diangana deal  it wasn't until Wednesday (?) that news of the deal broke and then very obviously from the West Ham end prior to that there was no chatter. Those deals that are out in the public domain are largely because of a previous association with the club and they are very obvious e.g. Krovinovic or prior acknowledged interest in the case of Grant.

I am resigned to the goal keeping situation I don't think it's ideal but there no indications that it is going to change.

The midfield is a bit of a conundrum. In a 4-2-3-1 the main creative fulcrum of the team is the 10 and that's Pereira and that's fine. We need a combination to sit in the double pivot ideally both all rounders the day of the specialist DM that does nothing much more than tackle and block is gone. Yet we don't have that and bringing in Krovinovic doesn't provide it.

I agree with you concerning Field and Harper they do have roles to play certainly as first back up options.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 05, 2020, 09:26:27 AM
4231 does appear the way we are going and that, more then ever, means we need to upgrade the centre of midfield.

Agree regards gk, let's hope it takes teams a while to really pinpoint Johnstone's main weakness of not commanding his area.

Cb we have two more traditional cbs in Hegazi and Bartley and two more modern cbs who like to win the ball in modfield and play in Kipre and Ajayi, I wonder if they have the required quality amongst them but am not overly concerned.

Finally I'd add that I'd certainly be promoting Tulloch with Edwards going on loan. Grosicki will likely be gone next year and Phillips will be in the last boat to get an ok fee for so Edwards coming back having been a regular starter in the Championship and ready to fire would be good. Tulloch could then go out next year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on September 05, 2020, 09:27:03 AM
I have a feeling that our midfield 2 might start well, and that Sawyers may get a bit of media profile as he could well start very well in a league that doesn’t know too much about him. His cultured style might surprise a few people. Personally I’m a big fan.

But I suspect that similar to last year the midfield will be found out quite quickly and we may need to revert to a three which is where Krov is at his best as he is a bit more tenacious than I think we thought originally.

I do think we need some strength in there though, maybe even an option to bring in to midfield to help secure an away point for example, and I don’t think we have anyone who can do that at the moment.

Exciting times though and a great opportunity for our younger players if the squad stays the same.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on September 05, 2020, 09:38:34 AM
As I’ve said before, I think Kipper could become a DM.
Or switch between Ajayi into a DM and kipper at CB
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 05, 2020, 10:15:48 AM

The current squad ages and contract expiry dates in brackets .                                                 

I think that the above post brings us all back to earth.  We are light in the defensive midfielder area.  Harper was converted from a forward and doesn't know where he should be when the opposition has the ball.  Like Leko he has talent but hasn't yet demonstrated a football brain.  Field seems to be the opposite though a run of injuries means he might have potential still undeveloped;  After all, he has played for England at a couple of junior levels.

I agree that we are stuck with Johnstone and the best we can do is stop being so negative and boost his confidence.  Who is our goalkeeping coach?  I've been aware of a lack of command in the area in several of his predecessors.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 05, 2020, 10:29:55 AM
 Updated from earlier we now have a 24 man squad and I would appreciate it if the club would stop signing players so I don't feel the need to update this again today :D   

                                                      GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea (20, 2023)           Ajayi (26,2023)     Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)       Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)      Bartley (28, 2021)      Kipre (23, 2024)    Townsend (27, 2021)
                                         

                                          6                                     6
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)             Livermore    (30,2022)
                                   Field  (21, 2022)                Harper (19,2022)                           
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Burke (22.2022)                                         
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on September 05, 2020, 01:15:48 PM
I think that the above post brings us all back to earth.  We are light in the defensive midfielder area.  Harper was converted from a forward and doesn't know where he should be when the opposition has the ball.  Like Leko he has talent but hasn't yet demonstrated a football brain.  Field seems to be the opposite though a run of injuries means he might have potential still undeveloped;  After all, he has played for England at a couple of junior levels.

I agree that we are stuck with Johnstone and the best we can do is stop being so negative and boost his confidence.  Who is our goalkeeping coach?  I've been aware of a lack of command in the area in several of his predecessors.
You may have a point re Harper but one of the few games Harper started last season, Bilic actually singled him out after the game saying that he was our best player with his work off the ball. There's no doubt Slaven will be constantly in his ear about that side of the game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on September 05, 2020, 05:17:00 PM
In thought Gibbs looked fresh and strong ,thought he played OK today.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 05, 2020, 07:29:12 PM
Gibbs might benefit from only 1 game a week. Just about nursing him through...

If we could shift Zohore or even Austin and bring in a marquee striker we will look quite tasty for the pl. Up top is a glaring weakness...

If a bid came in for Phillips I would take it also he has been in constant regression.

Tulloch and Edwards need to go out and play. I would say the same for harper also
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 10, 2020, 02:49:10 PM
Updated following yesterday's activity squad size still 24.

                                                      GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea (20, 2023)        Ajayi (26,2023)        Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)       Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)      Bartley (28, 2021)      Kipre (23, 2024)        Townsend (27, 2021)
       
                                             6                                     6
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)             Livermore    (30,2022)
                                   Field  (21, 2022)                Harper (19,2022)                           
                                                                                   
                7                                                 10                                      11
         Robinson (25, 2025)              Pereira (24, 2024 )           Diangana (22, 2025)                                               
         Grosiki  (31, 2021)                                           
         Phillips  (29 ,2022)     
         Edwards  (21, 2021)
                                     
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)

Robinson's arrival does help and assuming that the deals that are public knowledge come to fruition then that takes the squad to 27 or 28 and hopefully we can trim some of the fringe players.

While I hate the Ivanovic deal it did blow in from nowhere which does mean that there are things happening behind the scenes that aren't in the public domain.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jimmyj on September 12, 2020, 12:36:03 AM
Regarding Livermore, (I hope mods will allow a quick observation) I hope his instructions in the pitch are a bit limited. Basically, if he just keeps it simple and covers the back four, wins the ball back and lays it off to Sawyers, I'm happy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 12, 2020, 08:27:56 AM
Looking at Stan's squad tracking, Ivanovic takes us up to the quota of 25. If you then add Krovinovic, Gallagher and Grant/Gray, that means we need to shed 3 players.

Zohore is the obvious one going out to Sheff Wed or Boro whipe we can probably assume Sam Field also goes as we will have an abundance of ball playing central midfielders (just no defensive ones 😤), but who will the third be?

Looking at it, the Peltier signing is starting to look a bit questionable, unless we are going to send Furlong out on loan which is a tad unfair. My personal choice would be to see Bartley go, although we are more likely to get a fee for Hegazi. The other question mark could be Kyle Edwards, although it seems he is another popular member of the squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 12, 2020, 08:39:15 AM
Matt Phillips would be top of my list to offload he is regressing and we have Grosicky, Diangana, Robinson, Pereira, Edwards all of whom can play wide.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 12, 2020, 11:18:43 AM
In terms of the 25 man rule neither O'Shea nor Harper count toward the 25 as they were both under 21  at the start of 2020.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Barrington on September 13, 2020, 04:52:16 PM
With what we have if we sign no one else. We'll get destroyed in the middle every week if we play both Sawyers and Livermore together in the current system. I propose something like this:

                                                       Johnstone

      Furlong                     Bartley                          Hegazi                         O'Shea




                                      Livermore                       Ajayi


                                                         Pereira


                          Robinson                                                Diangana


                                                          Austin


Absolutely not ideal and we'll still struggle but we can't give the midfield away every game.
                                                     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 13, 2020, 04:54:25 PM
Ajayi is not a midfielder, the idea of playing him in central midfield is madness. He's our only decent centre back with pace and strength.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 13, 2020, 04:55:02 PM
Absolutely barmy trying that set up today.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBArgo on September 13, 2020, 05:29:51 PM
It's early days but today reminded me of watching Mowbray in the Premier League. Little in attack and way too sloppy in defence. We've got a really young team and not much quality. I don't expect much this season, hopefully like some of that Mowbray team they will develop into good quality Premier League players in the next few seasons though and we can push on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 13, 2020, 05:36:02 PM
Absolutely barmy trying that set up today.

It worked well for half hour - then Leicester worked it out and went into cruise control from there on in.

The changes we made in the second half were ineffective but the options at Bilić disposal are hardly game changing.

I’d be frustrated to see Harper, HRK and Edwards come off the bench in the championship. Totally different kettle of fish when you’re 2-0 down in this division.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on September 13, 2020, 05:46:40 PM
The system wasn't the problem today, it was the lack of quality within it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Westie on September 13, 2020, 06:02:50 PM
Only Pereira and Diangana are Premier League quality.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Aztech on September 13, 2020, 06:08:42 PM
Only Pereira and Diangana are Premier League quality.

Agreed, as such I will be amazed if we survive this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: PartisanBaggie on September 13, 2020, 06:09:16 PM
It's early days but today reminded me of watching Mowbray in the Premier League. Little in attack and way too sloppy in defence. We've got a really young team and not much quality. I don't expect much this season, hopefully like some of that Mowbray team they will develop into good quality Premier League players in the next few seasons though and we can push on.

The side we had on the opening game of the season 10 years ago really wasn’t great. Look how that turned out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8906098.stm
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on September 13, 2020, 06:25:59 PM
Don’t think he wanted to play the 5 but we only have 2 centre mids Bilic trusts. Need Gallagher and Krovinovic in and go back to 433.

Something like;
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Ivanovic Gibbs
Gallagher Livermore Krovinovic
Pereira Grant Diangana

Should make us competitive, I hope!  :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on September 13, 2020, 06:30:09 PM
The side we had on the opening game of the season 10 years ago really wasn’t great. Look how that turned out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8906098.stm

You say it wasn't great, but several of that team walk into this one.

Brunt, Morrison, Mulumbu, Dorrans, Olsson, even Bednar for me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on September 13, 2020, 07:54:02 PM
Don’t think he wanted to play the 5 but we only have 2 centre mids Bilic trusts. Need Gallagher and Krovinovic in and go back to 433.

Something like;
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Ivanovic Gibbs
Gallagher Livermore Krovinovic
Pereira Grant Diangana

Should make us competitive, I hope!  :D
Yes that looks more like it .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 13, 2020, 09:42:37 PM
Regardless of what we might think of the players I don't think we set up particularly intelligently today.

Three at the back is not a problem per se and might have some merit in it particular in O'Shea and Ajayi we have players who are reasonably comfortable of the ball and in Gibbs and Furlong we have full backs who are good going forward in the wing back positions.

As such it is not a bad platform but the rest of it was a disjointed mess. Sawyers and Livermore were a double pivot which is that last thing you need with a 3 man back line. The wide players needed to play narrow allowing the full backs to overlap Pereira did Diangana did not. Robinson needed to come deep for the ball rather than sitting on the shoulder of the last defender the whole time.

Frankly it looked like a team that hadn't played the system before or they had worked on the back half of it and out of possession drills but had given scant thought to the front half of the team and what they were going to do in possession.

Regardless of who bring in this needs a lot of work if we are going to use this shape again.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 13, 2020, 09:44:55 PM
Yes that looks more like it .
                    Johnstone (who I will say, played well today)

          .  Ajeyi. Ivanovic.  Kipre
Furlong.                                  Diangana
                    An animal
           Gallagher.         Krov

              Pererira.  Grant

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBASweden on September 13, 2020, 10:00:12 PM
                    Johnstone (who I will say, played well today)

          .  Ajeyi. Ivanovic.  Kipre
Furlong.                                  Diangana
                    An animal
           Gallagher.         Krov

              Pererira.  Grant

                                 Johnstone

               Furlong Ajayi Ivanovic/Kipre Gibbs

           Pereira Gallagher Krov Livermore Diang
 
                                  Grant


           
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2020, 10:03:11 PM
Is Kipre fast does anyone know? I think i might have asked this before but cant remember so apologies if so.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 13, 2020, 10:11:20 PM
Is Kipre fast does anyone know? I think i might have asked this before but cant remember so apologies if so.

I think he’s very much a signing for in 12 months time when we’re back in the championship...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2020, 10:13:56 PM
Yeah i thought that when we signed him or to sell on for a profit.

Just watched his videos on Youtube and he looks like a proper old school, no-nonsense defender. Throw his body on the line type.  Why pick Bartley over him??? His shirt tugging every game will get us relegated even if we compete in the other departments.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 13, 2020, 10:21:06 PM
I don’t think Bartley was that bad today - he certainly wasn’t exposed as I expected him to be. He could be heard guiding both Ajayi and O’Shea through the game. The big issue is that we can ill afford his customary balls up in this division. The error today was just so stupid it is beyond belief - you will not get away with that in this division.

Ivanović next to Ajayi will be my preference
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on September 13, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
If we are going to try that system again the middle pairing needs to be different , I'm not a fan oc playing 2 v 3 or more.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2020, 10:24:47 PM
The error today was just so stupid it is beyond belief - you will not get away with that in this division.

Ivanović next to Ajayi will be my preference


Agreed. He gets away with it every game in the EFL, he won't get away with it in the PL
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on September 13, 2020, 10:26:04 PM
I don’t think Bartley was that bad today - he certainly wasn’t exposed as I expected him to be. He could be heard guiding both Ajayi and O’Shea through the game. The big issue is that we can ill afford his customary balls up in this division. The error today was just so stupid it is beyond belief - you will not get away with that in this division.

Ivanović next to Ajayi will be my preference
Bartley played quite well until grabbing Vardy , the real mistake that did us was Gibbs daft header back into danger and not reacting to the following cross for 1 nil .
Really not keen on 3 4 3 , think it exposes  us too much and limits our already limited attackers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 14, 2020, 10:40:21 AM
Bartley is a grappler he always has been when under pressure. It didnt show quite so much last season as we usually had most of the ball. That wont be the case this season and Bartley will do what Bartley does, tug, pull. With VAR now in the game he's not going to get away with it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: staticboy on September 14, 2020, 11:10:23 AM
Bartley is a grappler he always has been when under pressure. It didnt show quite so much last season as we usually had most of the ball. That wont be the case this season and Bartley will do what Bartley does, tug, pull. With VAR now in the game he's not going to get away with it.

I thought exactly the same about Bartley that he has always done that and surely our manage,ent know that too.  So why did we play him knowing that is how he plays.

Like you have said we will be found out with VAR this year.

I'm just hoping there is a smoke screen and we are going about our business quielty as possible and get at least 4 more in.

Gallagher, Ivanovic,  Krov and Grant.

Heck!!! I'll even taken Deeney if we can.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 14, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
I thought exactly the same about Bartley that he has always done that and surely our manage,ent know that too.  So why did we play him knowing that is how he plays.

Like you have said we will be found out with VAR this year.

I'm just hoping there is a smoke screen and we are going about our business quielty as possible and get at least 4 more in.

Gallagher, Ivanovic,  Krov and Grant.

Heck!!! I'll even taken Deeney if we can.
I would pull the plug on the Krov deal I'm afraid, we don't need another lightweight midfielder, should be looking at someone with more steel.
Unfortunately, Krov is a luxury we can ill afford judging by yesterday.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: staticboy on September 14, 2020, 11:26:54 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean maybe we get Gallagher in.

I think the one thing that would be good is the relationshiop between Krov and Pereira and Diang.

But I know there is no room for sentiment in football :/
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 14, 2020, 11:39:47 AM
Agree re Bartley. Despite the criticism, he was our best defender for 60 minutes, but then his huge limitations shone through.

The 343 will be used again this season if Bilic's comments are anything to go by, but it is a system designed to try to mask our weak core and defensive fragility and unfortunately, it just hurt us the longer the game went on as Pereira and Diangana couldn't get the ball in danger areas and our wing backs aren't dynamic enough to shoulder the creative burden. If we wanted to play this was, we should have pushed the boat out for Robinson or focussed more on that position in the transfer window.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 14, 2020, 01:48:50 PM
Agree re Bartley. Despite the criticism, he was our best defender for 60 minutes, but then his huge limitations shone through.

The 343 will be used again this season if Bilic's comments are anything to go by, but it is a system designed to try to mask our weak core and defensive fragility and unfortunately, it just hurt us the longer the game went on as Pereira and Diangana couldn't get the ball in danger areas and our wing backs aren't dynamic enough to shoulder the creative burden. If we wanted to play this was, we should have pushed the boat out for Robinson or focused more on that position in the transfer window.

Bang on. He should have identified players to suit the change in formation and tried it our during pre season which he didn't do.
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 would get the best out of the players we have...and those we've been linked with.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 14, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
Bang on. He should have identified players to suit the change in formation and tried it our during pre season which he didn't do.
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 would get the best out of the players we have...and those we've been linked with.

A team like us needs 3 in the middle in the PL.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 14, 2020, 02:41:44 PM
A team like us needs 3 in the middle in the PL.

Or perhaps we play central midfielders who can control the ball and pass it without giving it away to the opposition, which would be the end of Livermore. Our PL decline started when Pulis signed him and replaced Yacob with him. I think this would be his third relegation from the PL this season as well - how much evidence can there be that he's a championship player.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 14, 2020, 02:43:59 PM
Or perhaps we play central midfielders who can control the ball and pass it without giving it away to the opposition, which would be the end of Livermore. Our PL decline started when Pulis signed him and replaced Yacob with him. I think this would be his third relegation from the PL this season as well - how much evidence can there be that he's a championship player.

I dont necessarily disagree with you but a number of teams play three in the middle, including Liverpool. Fancy taking them on out numbered?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: staticboy on September 14, 2020, 03:11:51 PM
I love the Premier League...
I hate the Premier League.

Let's face it, we under performed towards the end of the season and only got promoted because others couldn't hack it, we knew what we needed player-wise and by the sounds of it are still struggling to get the players over the line that we need.

What makes this worse is other teams like Leeds can make this jump up and perform brilliantly against the Champions. I watched the game the other night feeling slightly envious - 'Why can't we pass the ball around like that?',  'How come we keep passing back to the goalie all the time?' and 'How come they seem to be playing without any fear.'

Also our Villa 'friends' are signing so many players and I really won't be able to hack it if they take 6 points off us this season. It was bad enough a few years ago when we played them twice in a week and was slaughtered.

People have us down for being bottom of the league this season, I really hope that this can motivate the team and management.

Sorry I do not mean to be doom and gloom it's more of a Frustration :)

Who do I need to pay for this Therapy Session???
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 14, 2020, 03:50:32 PM
I dont necessarily disagree with you but a number of teams play three in the middle, including Liverpool. Fancy taking them on out numbered?

Liverpool are able to play 433 as they have world class full backs who can fly forwards and VVD to cover. I've no issue playing 4-5-1 or similar as long as we have better quality midfielders and a clear structure and game plan. Half the problem yesterday was we had so many defenders in the last line of the pitch there was nobody left to help out in midfield and attack. It didn't work either. That first goal we conceded we had loads of players in the six yard box - none of them (Gibbs most culpable) able to stop their full back heading it in from point blank range.

Bottom line is no system, no matter how well put together will help if we don't have players we can rely on. Still good 3/4 short at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 14, 2020, 05:11:07 PM
Personally, i think we have to scrap this 5 at the back.

If we get Gallagher as reported, we can play 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1 based on the dynamic of a game as it is interchangeable with the players we have. It also allows width when you want it, or for the side to play more through the middle.  Yes when it is 4-5-1 we will be asking Diangana and Pereira to do more defending but as a side fighting down the bottom it will be needed.


In 4-3-3 you have

                 Robinson (hopefully replaced by a proper striker)
Diangana                        Pereira

Sawyers     Livermore      Gallagher


If we are on the front foot and want width, and perhaps in other situations we want to go 4-2-3-1 then Gallagher pushes forwards, Diangana and Pereira go wider and Sawyers and Livermore get a little closer together.

If we want to be solid and are under pressure, Diangana and Pereria go wide and fall back in to a five.

You can move from any one to the other quite easily. The instructions to players at any point are relatively simple.

There are still questions about how much protection Sawyers and Livermore give in any set up, and obviously we need to hope that Ivanovic is a coach in waiting and can pull the defense together but at least the way we are trying to play and the 3 shapes we want can be worked upon and players know where they will be expected to be in each.

Krovinovic could operate in a number of positions and on loan still may be worth bringing in. However a striker is still priority, followed by a defensive midfielder in my opinion. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 14, 2020, 05:38:48 PM
I don’t see the point in playing Livermore. He doesn’t score or assist, he can’t pass the ball and he’s not a defensive midfielder. Gallagher, Krov, Sawyers, I’d pick all of them before him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 14, 2020, 05:48:00 PM
I don’t see the point in playing Livermore. He doesn’t score or assist, he can’t pass the ball and he’s not a defensive midfielder. Gallagher, Krov, Sawyers, I’d pick all of them before him.

Yet Livermore scored 3 goals to Sawyers one and assisted 5 times to Sawyers one.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/romaine-sawyers/leistungsdaten/spieler/113036/plus/0?saison=2019

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jake-livermore/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/61832/plus/0?saison=2019&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 14, 2020, 05:49:32 PM
I don’t see the point in playing Livermore. He doesn’t score or assist, he can’t pass the ball and he’s not a defensive midfielder. Gallagher, Krov, Sawyers, I’d pick all of them before him.

I fully agree with this (better?)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 14, 2020, 05:54:24 PM
I fully agree with this (better?)

yes, as you are well aware one word posts aren't allowed.

So you agree that Livermore can't score or assist? even though he did both last season and both a lot more than Sawyers.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 14, 2020, 06:32:47 PM
yes, as you are well aware one word posts aren't allowed.

So you agree that Livermore can't score or assist? even though he did both last season and both a lot more than Sawyers.

meh, just facts, why do people bother with em?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 14, 2020, 06:36:55 PM
Careers statistics.

Livermore

19 goals 22 assists

Games 385

Sawyers

28 goals 39 assists

Games 343

footystats.org

Know who I'd want...

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 14, 2020, 06:44:50 PM
Sawyers isn’t perfect but he’s obviously a footballer with some vision and a pass. Whereas Livermore is just a cumbersome lump.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 14, 2020, 06:46:47 PM
Careers statistics.

Livermore

19 goals 22 assists

Games 385

Sawyers

28 goals 39 assists

Games 343

footystats.org

Know who I'd want...

yes the player who's scored more in lower leagues.
 Livermore has played 179 Pl games, Sawyers 1. I'd be playing someone with Pl experience as that is one of the things this side needs.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 14, 2020, 06:47:27 PM
Sawyers isn’t perfect but he’s obviously a footballer with some vision and a pass. Whereas Livermore is just a cumbersome lump.

A cumbersome lump who contributed more to the team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on September 14, 2020, 07:53:31 PM
yes the player who's scored more in lower leagues.
 Livermore has played 179 Pl games, Sawyers 1. I'd be playing someone with Pl experience as that is one of the things this side needs.
Oh no Hull, you clearly don't get it, you can't use "your " stats , you have to use Jacko's .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 14, 2020, 08:28:38 PM
A cumbersome lump who contributed more to the team.

Livermore was playing as the attacking midfielder last season, so he should have got more goals and assists than Sawyers who was sitting in-between the defence and attackers, linking the play. The fact he only got 3 goals and 5 assists in 46 games in a side that scored as many as Leads is a indictment of his terrible football ability, not something to shout about.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: glosterbaggie on September 14, 2020, 10:04:27 PM
Livermore was playing as the attacking midfielder last season, so he should have got more goals and assists than Sawyers who was sitting in-between the defence and attackers, linking the play. The fact he only got 3 goals and 5 assists in 46 games in a side that scored as many as Leads is a indictment of his terrible football ability, not something to shout about.
I thought he was doing both jobs. Fair play to him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on September 14, 2020, 10:34:20 PM
Is he going for three at back to accommodate Ivanovic? Lost a lot of pace if you talk to Chelsea glory hunters.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 14, 2020, 10:52:13 PM
Oh no Hull, you clearly don't get it, you can't use "your " stats , you have to use Jacko's .

How very true. What do we all know compared to the great one?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 14, 2020, 11:04:00 PM
How very true. What do we all know compared to the great one?

Well you clearly don't know anything about stats... they tell you want you want to hear... Hull used last seasons,  I used all time, if you know where to look you can prove most subjective topics using a careful selection of statistical parameters to suit your own argument..

...Then the goalposts were moved to PL experience for some unknown reason and the debate came to an end before 68s utterly pointless dig at me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 14, 2020, 11:10:47 PM
Is he going for three at back to accommodate Ivanovic? Lost a lot of pace if you talk to Chelsea glory hunters.

Makes sense of the Ivanovic signing. Unfortunately it pretty much kills Sawyers Albion career. The thing we don't need nor fits into a 3-4-3 or any other 3 at the back combination is a deep sitting playmaker (Sawyers) or a Defensive Midfielder in the Yacob mold for that matter.

I am really not happy with this turn of events, I think it is a mistake there was so much wrong on SaturdayI hardly know where to start. We have an issue with the quality of personnel in the squad but reshaping the team in this way adds unfamiliarity into the mix and does not play to the strengths of a number of key personnel. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggie79 on September 14, 2020, 11:29:37 PM
Livermore was playing as the attacking midfielder last season, so he should have got more goals and assists than Sawyers who was sitting in-between the defence and attackers, linking the play. The fact he only got 3 goals and 5 assists in 46 games in a side that scored as many as Leads is a indictment of his terrible football ability, not something to shout about.

I'm sorry did you just say JL was playing as an attacking midfielder? I'm sorry but that is about the most ill informed comment I have ever seen. He is there for one reason only and that it is to break up opposition play, SB knows it, the fans know it and nobody and I mean nobody thinks in any way he is a attacking midfielder.

He is the only person apart from the back 4/5 that tackles anyone. If you think our AM is JL rather than MP I give up with our fans.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 14, 2020, 11:29:45 PM
Seems a lot of posts with sawyers vs Livermore
Truth is you are all correct, both need to come out of the team

Diangana. Krov.  Gallagher. Pererira
       
             Morgan schnederlin

That sorts this out ....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 12:28:53 AM
I'm sorry did you just say JL was playing as an attacking midfielder? I'm sorry but that is about the most ill informed comment I have ever seen. He is there for one reason only and that it is to break up opposition play, SB knows it, the fans know it and nobody and I mean nobody thinks in any way he is a attacking midfielder.

He is the only person apart from the back 4/5 that tackles anyone. If you think our AM is JL rather than MP I give up with our fans.

Clumsily worded, but of the 2 he had far more licence to get forward and support the attack. Obviously Krovinović and latterly Pereira played the position Attacking Midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 08:06:10 AM
I welcome the change to three at the back. I give Bilic credit for that. I think it gives newly promoted teams the best chance of survival, Wolves play three at the back, so do Sheff Utd.

It may not have been a huge success on Sunday but that was the first time we've played that way.

Of course you need the right players in any system. Ivanovic and Hegazi coming in at centre back gives us a stronger look immediately. Gallagher coming into midfield does too and a good striker not only improves us in a 3-4-3 it also gives us the option of 3-5-2. I do think we will need to vary how we play at times.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 15, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
Makes sense of the Ivanovic signing. Unfortunately it pretty much kills Sawyers Albion career. The thing we don't need nor fits into a 3-4-3 or any other 3 at the back combination is a deep sitting playmaker (Sawyers) or a Defensive Midfielder in the Yacob mold for that matter.

I am really not happy with this turn of events, I think it is a mistake there was so much wrong on SaturdayI hardly know where to start. We have an issue with the quality of personnel in the squad but reshaping the team in this way adds unfamiliarity into the mix and does not play to the strengths of a number of key personnel.

I think we will see a back 4 most of the time but Bilic has the back 3 to combat those that play it, likes Wolves and Sheffield United. I think a full strength Leicester will be playing a back 3 and although they had injuries and played a back 4 all of pre-season, I think Bilic was wary of that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 15, 2020, 09:47:33 AM
Did Ivanovic play in a back 4 or back 3 at Zenit? If a 4 then suggests he can still cut it. If a 3 then we almost certainly need to employ that to shoe horn him in.

Personally, I think a back 3 will almost always turn into a back 5 and negate the strengths of Pereira and Diangana, whose best performances tend to have been in a 433.

Could see Galagher dropping into a midfield 3, with Sawyers and Livermore, with Pereira, Diangana and Robinson interchanging in the front 3. Would be perfect for the Championship but, whilst it could have flashes of brilliance it would likely leave us exposed at the back.

Just shows how difficult this league is. It's not just who to play but how?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 10:25:29 AM
Did Ivanovic play in a back 4 or back 3 at Zenit? If a 4 then suggests he can still cut it. If a 3 then we almost certainly need to employ that to shoe horn him in.

Personally, I think a back 3 will almost always turn into a back 5 and negate the strengths of Pereira and Diangana, whose best performances tend to have been in a 433.

Could see Galagher dropping into a midfield 3, with Sawyers and Livermore, with Pereira, Diangana and Robinson interchanging in the front 3. Would be perfect for the Championship but, whilst it could have flashes of brilliance it would likely leave us exposed at the back.

Just shows how difficult this league is. It's not just who to play but how?

Ivanovic played in a 2 at Zenit.

The sooner we get back to what brought us success last season the better. Diangana especially is totally wasted when we use a left wingback.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 15, 2020, 12:44:42 PM
Well you clearly don't know anything about stats... they tell you want you want to hear... Hull used last seasons,  I used all time, if you know where to look you can prove most subjective topics using a careful selection of statistical parameters to suit your own argument..

...Then the goalposts were moved to PL experience for some unknown reason and the debate came to an end before 68s utterly pointless dig at me.

There is a well known saying about statistics, which I am sure you know. People are still allowed to form their opinions thankfully. They wont always agree with another person's but should be respected.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
Ivanovic played in a 2 at Zenit.

The sooner we get back to what brought us success last season the better. Diangana especially is totally wasted when we use a left wingback.

If we do what we did last season we will be Norwich mark 2. The team is more important than any individual.

Personally I would not have signed Grady. Yes he's a good player but we had greater priorities than another wide man.

That money we spent wouldve been better going on making sure we got the likes of Manzukic and Krovinovic and Grant in.

IF we get them all in anyway then it's fine bringing Grady in but it's a big IF at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 12:51:53 PM
If we do what we did last season we will be Norwich mark 2. The team is more important than any individual.

Personally I would not have signed Grady. Yes he's a good player but we had greater priorities than another wide man.

That money we spent wouldve been better going on making sure we got the likes of Manzukic and Krovinovic and Grant in.

IF we get them all in anyway then it's fine bringing Grady in but it's a big IF at the moment.

3 at the back is not the way forward for our personnel. You can't convince me differently.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 12:53:53 PM
3 at the back is not the way forward for our personnel. You can't convince me differently.

No I know you too well to expect otherwise.

We shall see. 😉
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 12:55:25 PM
No I know you too well to expect otherwise.

We shall see. 😉

I've finally got round to watching the match. Leicester have just scored. It has been far poorer than I was led to believe reading the comments on here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
I've finally got round to watching the match. Leicester have just scored. It has been far poorer than I was led to believe reading the comments on here.

It was poor. We have almost half a team that are nowhere near PL quality. Whatever system we use isnt going to change that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 12:59:03 PM
It was poor. We have almost half a team that are nowhere near PL quality. Whatever system we use isnt going to change that.

It nullified any threat we carry. Full appraisal at full time mate.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on September 15, 2020, 01:00:39 PM
It was poor. We have almost half a team that are nowhere near PL quality. Whatever system we use isnt going to change that.

I'd say even more than that. Without 4-5 quality starters we will finish rock bottom.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 15, 2020, 02:42:50 PM
I'd play with a back four, five at the back just kills our attacking intent. No matter what system we play we are not going to be too convincing defensively, this teams is better on front foot. We need to try to get players up and around the front three, which means more midfielders making runs into the box and more play in the opposition third. Way too negative set-up against Leicester. You don't get promoted and then change your system and hide in your shell on the opening day against a team with a make shift back four. Too clever for our own good at the weekend.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 02:46:50 PM
I'd play with a back four, five at the back just kills our attacking intent. No matter what system we play we are not going to be too convincing defensively, this teams is better on front foot. We need to try to get players up and around the front three, which means more midfielders making runs into the box and more play in the opposition third. Way too negative set-up against Leicester. You don't get promoted and then change your system and hide in your shell on the opening day against a team with a make shift back four. Too clever for our own good at the weekend.

We wont have enough of the ball to do what you want us to do. You are forgetting we are up against teams with better players than we have.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 15, 2020, 03:09:01 PM
We wont have enough of the ball to do what you want us to do. You are forgetting we are up against teams with better players than we have.
Not all teams have the quality of Leicester, they are a top 5 side!
There are 9 or 10 teams that we can easily compete with.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 15, 2020, 03:10:46 PM
Not all teams have the quality of Leicester, they are a top 5 side!
There are 9 or 10 teams that we can easily compete with.

At the moment there is one. Fulham and that's 50 / 50.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 03:28:09 PM
At the moment there is one. Fulham and that's 50 / 50.

Far too pessimistic, our reserves beat West Ham comfortably. Our reserves minus Barry plus Krov were extremely unlucky not to get the equaliser and then beat Newcastle.

We are not going to be defensively solid, we haven't got the personnel. We have to give the opposition something to think about going the other way. That means building around Pereira and Diangana. Not Bartley and Ajayi.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBASweden on September 15, 2020, 03:40:14 PM
Did Ivanovic play in a back 4 or back 3 at Zenit? If a 4 then suggests he can still cut it. If a 3 then we almost certainly need to employ that to shoe horn him in.

Personally, I think a back 3 will almost always turn into a back 5 and negate the strengths of Pereira and Diangana, whose best performances tend to have been in a 433.

Could see Galagher dropping into a midfield 3, with Sawyers and Livermore, with Pereira, Diangana and Robinson interchanging in the front 3. Would be perfect for the Championship but, whilst it could have flashes of brilliance it would likely leave us exposed at the back.

Just shows how difficult this league is. It's not just who to play but how?

I'd try a 4-2-3-1 with Gallagher and Livermore dropping deep while Sawyers plays as a CAM behind the striker. Thats how he used to play for Brentford when Dean Smith was their manager. Wouldn't have to be as responsible defensively and can follow along Grady and Pereira
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 15, 2020, 03:43:01 PM
I'd try a 4-2-3-1 with Gallagher and Livermore dropping deep while Sawyers plays as a CAM behind the striker. Thats how he used to play for Brentford when Dean Smith was their manager. Wouldn't have to be as responsible defensively and can follow along Grady and Pereira
If you play 4231, Pereira needs to be in the middle of the 3, IMO.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 15, 2020, 06:07:49 PM
Another thing to give consideration to at the back is who exactly is Ivanović replacing?

We seem to have a plethora of right sided centre halves. Not sure it is helpful to the balance of the side.

I guess Ajayi and Ivanović will be our centre half pairing as I cannot imagine he is here to warm the bench. There is the option of him at full back which opens up a return for Bartley at centre but I cannot imagine we will set up a 36 year old at full back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 15, 2020, 06:37:10 PM
Another thing to give consideration to at the back is who exactly is Ivanović replacing?

We seem to have a plethora of right sided centre halves. Not sure it is helpful to the balance of the side.


I agree with this for when we are building the play but for me, Ajayi plays on the left as Gibbs is more attack minded than O'Shea, who would be my first choice centre backs. That defensively is the optimum setup as Ajayi has the pace to cover Gibbs and O'Shea can stay a little further back and tuck in with Ivanovic.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 15, 2020, 10:09:14 PM

 Updated from earlier we now have a 26 man squad.

                                                      GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)             Livermore    (30,2022)
                                   Field  (22, 2022)                Harper *(19,2022)                           
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)
                                       
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)


* under 21 player does not count toward the Premier League 25 man squad.

We now have too many defenders or we are going to a back 3 in which case buying Diangana was a massive misstep. I was reasonably optimistic regardless of what I might have thought of the individual signings that we were going to recruit to a clear tactical template and the squad would at least reflect this.

I am a lot less certain of this following this weekend's game and the arrival of Ivanovic.

It is still very obvious that fringe players need to move on almost as much as we need to hire additional ones.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 15, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
I'd try a 4-2-3-1 with Gallagher and Livermore dropping deep while Sawyers plays as a CAM behind the striker. Thats how he used to play for Brentford when Dean Smith was their manager. Wouldn't have to be as responsible defensively and can follow along Grady and Pereira
Why the need to shoehorn Sawyers in to the team?
How could anyone justify playing him at CAM when we have Pererira on the books?

Johnstone, Zohore,Austin,Phillips,sawyers, Livermore ,hegazi,Bartley all need to leave in that order IMO
Thank you for last season but we are in a different world now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 15, 2020, 11:37:22 PM
Why the need to shoehorn Sawyers in to the team?
How could anyone justify playing him at CAM when we have Pererira on the books?

Johnstone, Zohore,Austin,Phillips,sawyers, Livermore ,hegazi,Bartley all need to leave in that order IMO
Thank you for last season but we are in a different world now.

You forgot Kanu who should be 3 on that list. Sawyers and Hegazi very much a stretch.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 16, 2020, 06:03:42 AM
As it stands my system would be 433

                    Gk
Furlong ajayi Ivanovic gibbs
Phillips Livermore sawyers
Periera robinson diangana

Keeper I dont have a preference not sure if button better than johnstone so probably doesn't matter until we panic buy one January.

I would play Phillips in the central 3 for his pace dynamism and physicality- however any of the 3 in midfield could easily be replaced by new signings.

Robinson is central of the front 3 because he is the pick of an awful bunch. It seems as if incoming depends on outgoing hopefully we can get shot of Zohore and at least 1 of the other 2 before the window is out

5 at the back we lose anything going forward. 2 in midfield we are overrun so 433 seems the only way forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 16, 2020, 06:30:06 AM
To my mind the central tactical problem is how do we get Dianagna and Pereira on the pitch in roles that they comfortable in and then get the ball to them in advanced positions? If we don't fix that it won't matter who the striker is because they will be feeding off scraps.

It seems logical that we go with a 4-2-3-1 with Pereira as the 10 and Diangana as the 11. Slot everything else around that. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 16, 2020, 07:54:02 AM
To my mind the central tactical problem is how do we get Dianagna and Pereira on the pitch in roles that they comfortable in and then get the ball to them in advanced positions? If we don't fix that it won't matter who the striker is because they will be feeding off scraps.

It seems logical that we go with a 4-2-3-1 with Pereira as the 10 and Diangana as the 11. Slot everything else around that.

100% and the answer is Grosicki as the other winger and they can be inverted or not.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 16, 2020, 08:46:47 AM
If at some point we go 3-5-2 which is possible, there wont be any room for Diangana or any of the wingers. It might sound bad but imagine a front two of Mandzukic and Grant with Pereira pulling the strings in behind. Doesnt sound so bad then.

It all depends on whether we can get the players in we want I expect.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 16, 2020, 09:31:41 AM
Why the need to shoehorn Sawyers in to the team?
How could anyone justify playing him at CAM when we have Pererira on the books?

Johnstone, Zohore,Austin,Phillips,sawyers, Livermore ,hegazi,Bartley all need to leave in that order IMO
Thank you for last season but we are in a different world now.

Somebody needs to come and buy them first...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 16, 2020, 09:38:49 AM
If at some point we go 3-5-2 which is possible, there wont be any room for Diangana or any of the wingers. It might sound bad but imagine a front two of Mandzukic and Grant with Pereira pulling the strings in behind. Doesnt sound so bad then.

It all depends on whether we can get the players in we want I expect.

Not even worth imagining as there’s not a cat in hells chance of Mandzukic coming to this football club.

Wolves and a Sheff Utd are the greatest exponents of a 352 system or some variation of it. The reason being is that both have had the best part of three years or more to mould into the system and sign footballers that suit the approach.

I’m all for being flexible but I do not believe that now is the right time to pursue a 3 at the back given we’ve spent the last 12 months being ingrained to play in a different style and have spent the large majority of our budget on players who are not designed to play that way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 16, 2020, 09:52:50 AM

Not even worth imagining as there’s not a cat in hells chance of Mandzukic coming to this football club.


I wouldn’t rule it out completely. He’s played 10 games in over 12 months which includes spell in UAE which didn’t go particularly well. Add that to the fact he is 34 and he’s still without a club and it shows his stock is much lower. It’s certainly not impossible.

That’s not to say i would sign him, but we might.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 16, 2020, 10:23:34 AM
Not even worth imagining as there’s not a cat in hells chance of Mandzukic coming to this football club.

Wolves and a Sheff Utd are the greatest exponents of a 352 system or some variation of it. The reason being is that both have had the best part of three years or more to mould into the system and sign footballers that suit the approach.

I’m all for being flexible but I do not believe that now is the right time to pursue a 3 at the back given we’ve spent the last 12 months being ingrained to play in a different style and have spent the large majority of our budget on players who are not designed to play that way.

I watched Wo1ve5 on Monday. After a very fast start they weren't great. Anyway my point is they tried Traore at RWB in place of Doherty and he was, and I'm being generous, very poor, until he was moved 2nd half.

We cannot afford to write off our record signing in a system with no tangible benefits to the team.

3 at the back won't work.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 16, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
I wouldn’t rule it out completely. He’s played 10 games in over 12 months which includes spell in UAE which didn’t go particularly well. Add that to the fact he is 34 and he’s still without a club and it shows his stock is much lower. It’s certainly not impossible.

That’s not to say i would sign him, but we might.

10 games in over 12 months.

34 years of age.

He would be our highest esrner

Has a disaster written all over it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 16, 2020, 12:01:26 PM
10 games in over 12 months.

34 years of age.

He would be our highest esrner

Has a disaster written all over it.

I don’t disagree at all. However could I see us doing it in desperation, yes.

Some would lap it up too. I’ve already seen an Ibrahimovic comparison!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 16, 2020, 07:59:52 PM
Field would be in my team after tonight.
Livermore "tackles" and sawyers can pass.
Field does both- albeit it was against lesser opposition
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boingboing1989 on September 16, 2020, 08:05:50 PM
Field would be in my team after tonight.
Livermore "tackles" and sawyers can pass.
Field does both- albeit it was against lesser opposition
Likewise, said in the game thread but he's had a very rough time of it since Bilic took over for what ever reason. Definitly worth a place in the squad, but I'd be pushing him a lot more. Could easily do the same job as Sawyers and actually offer a tackle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: koren on September 16, 2020, 08:14:16 PM
Likewise, said in the game thread but he's had a very rough time of it since Bilic took over for what ever reason. Definitly worth a place in the squad, but I'd be pushing him a lot more. Could easily do the same job as Sawyers and actually offer a tackle.
Agree. Field does a lot of inconspicuous but essential defensive work on the pitch.
Should be included in the matchday squad against Everton.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 16, 2020, 08:16:47 PM
Agree. Field does a lot of inconspicuous but essential defensive work on the pitch.
Should be included in the matchday squad against Everton.

If we bin off the three at the back then given what I’ve seen tonight he should be in the starting 11..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 16, 2020, 08:59:28 PM
To my mind the central tactical problem is how do we get Dianagna and Pereira on the pitch in roles that they comfortable in and then get the ball to them in advanced positions? If we don't fix that it won't matter who the striker is because they will be feeding off scraps.

It seems logical that we go with a 4-2-3-1 with Pereira as the 10 and Diangana as the 11. Slot everything else around that.
I’d have Periera floating right side behind the striker ...he’s intelligent enough to find his own path.
I’d have Diangana as a very attack minded LWB...he would have more of the ball and more space to run in to .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 16, 2020, 09:27:02 PM
Musings

someone said above you take Periera and Diang, stick them in best positions and fit the rest around them. I would agree with that and despite our misgivings there are some others for whom there are few alternatives. In my opinion we should have the following in these positions at every opportunity

Gibbs - Left back
O'Shea - Right back
Periera - number 10
Ajayi - CH
Diangana - LMF (attacking)
Robinson - CH

The others become less clear,
Button is pushing Johnston after tonight, but I'd stick with Johnstone at the moment, hopefully pressure keeps Sam on form.
I would start with Hegazi at CH over Bartley
DMF, has to be Livermore and Sawyers (with Field pushing for Livermores position)
LMF is a real dilemma, Phillips hasn't impressed for soooo long, I think I'd go Grosicki on left.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Seagy on September 16, 2020, 10:15:59 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiBQutRXYAI_kCx?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiBQutRXYAI_kCx?format=jpg&name=large)

Found this pass map for each of our players from the Leicester game on twitter. You can really see the impact of the formation meaning that Romaine Sawyers only played 19 passes the entire game!

Dara O Shea's long passing very accurate, Bartley's less so

Also can see how isolated Robinson was up front with only 9 passes being attempted.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 16, 2020, 11:14:01 PM
To my mind the central tactical problem is how do we get Dianagna and Pereira on the pitch in roles that they comfortable in and then get the ball to them in advanced positions? If we don't fix that it won't matter who the striker is because they will be feeding off scraps.

It seems logical that we go with a 4-2-3-1 with Pereira as the 10 and Diangana as the 11. Slot everything else around that.

I think I agree woth this but we know that Gallagher is coming in who is more of an attacking midfielder and we also know that with our lack of a ball winning midfielder none of our central midfield players really provide a suitable axis which suggests a 433 formation is best for us but we saw post-lockdown, Pereira and Diangana as the wide players in a 433 did lack balance.

Once Diangana came in, we should have recruited to our 4231 blueprint that we played and were successful with in the first part of last season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 17, 2020, 06:58:40 AM
I think I agree woth this but we know that Gallagher is coming in who is more of an attacking midfielder and we also know that with our lack of a ball winning midfielder none of our central midfield players really provide a suitable axis which suggests a 433 formation is best for us but we saw post-lockdown, Pereira and Diangana as the wide players in a 433 did lack balance.

Once Diangana came in, we should have recruited to our 4231 blueprint that we played and were successful with in the first part of last season.
But last season was a total world apart from this?
Going in to each game last season our expectation of a win would have been 65%+....this season no where near
Last season we knew that despite our lack of bite and solidity we could out gun, so this year we spend the most money (so far) on a winger....now I know he’s good/popular etc , but if the kitchen is a mess you don’t buy a new sofa ?
Accepting that there will be some arguments....in the main our team needed seriously improving in
Keeper
Defensive midfield
Striker
And maybe CD
Before anywhere else on the pitch was looked at ?
For me ...there’s a reason good managers refer to a “spine” it is absolutely crucial , if our “spine” is Johnstone Hegazi Livermore Zohore ....I’d suggest we have some work to do ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 17, 2020, 11:01:18 AM
The all our players are rubbish and we need to replace all of them approach is not viable nor particularly desirable. We have to build around what is here. I can make a coherent argument for not signing Diangana if we are heading into the season in anything other than 4-2-3-1. Yet he is here and because we have spent a large part of our budget on him we had better use him as effectively as we can.

What is the best 4-2-3-1?

                    Johnstone

    O'Shea    Ajayi   Ivanovic    Gibbs
           
           Livermore   Sawyers

     Grosicki        Pereira         Diangana

                    Robinson   

At this point you can swap anyone currently in the squad and it makes very little difference to the fundamental issues that the set up has. Personally I like O'Shea at right back because he gives us a little bit more defensive solidity but generally the back 4 isn't the problem. Nor for that matter is the striker I am assuming we will land Grant or another option at that point Robinson goes to right wing and every other wide right footed player steps down a place in the pecking order.

The central issue is the 3 in the middle. Pereira as a 10 is a fixture it then becomes a question of which 2 to play with him.

Sawyers is a deep sitting play maker he is not the screening midfielder that many would like to see. I honestly believe that Sawyers is best deployed at the base of 3 man midfield with two athletic central midfielders ahead of him. In combination with Pereira it leaves too much ground and too much work for the other central midfielder to cover regardless of who that player is.

Livermore could be an adequate screening midfielder it is not his game and I would be happier to see him as an 8 alongside another 8 ahead of Sawyers both Gallagher and or Krovinovic would be fine in this regard but remember Pereira is the 10.

The Sawyers/Livermore double pivot does not work with Pereira as the 10 nor for that matter does any other double pivot with Sawyers in it. Signing Krovinovic does not help either. Gallagher does because a Livermore/Gallagher combination might work.

Thinking this through I am left with the conclusion that if I wanted to go there I would start from here

 

   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 17, 2020, 11:14:10 AM
This is a great sentence  :o

Thinking this through I am left with the conclusion that if I wanted to go there I would start from here


Sorry Stan, taken out of context i know !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on September 17, 2020, 11:19:21 AM
This is a great sentence  :o

Thinking this through I am left with the conclusion that if I wanted to go there I would start from here


Sorry Stan, taken out of context i know !


I think it's an adaption of an old countryside joke.

A driver asks a yokel for directions, the yokel's response was

"If you want to get there, I wouldn't start from here"
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 17, 2020, 11:56:07 AM


What is the best 4-2-3-1?

 

I think it is this:

                            Johnstone
O'Shea          Ivanovic            Ajayi            Gibbs
                    Livermore         Sawyers
 Diangana               Pereira                    Grosicki
                             Robinson

Agreed that the double pivot is not a success, i think the only way it can be functional is if both stay deep and screen. Of course we then lack something on the ball and as a result I'd be asking Gibbs to play high and wide, hence the wingers being inverted and O'Shea would tuck in creating the 3 at the back. I think if Grant comes in and Robinson shifts to the left wing this works as Grant likes to drift left and Robinson could be direct in getting in the box - with Gibbs providing the width.

This leaves a question mark over Gallagher though, who I presume is coming in to start. Maybe he is a better ball winner than I envisage and can make the double pivot a success but I see him best as an attacking midfielder in a midfield 3. I do think there will be a horses for courses approach from Bilic though, it's is just a shame that our best wide players in a 433 are both left footed as well as our best attacking full back - the balance is off.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 17, 2020, 12:15:01 PM
Sunday was a real curveball and a genuine concern, regarding formation. Slaven, I believe, has openly admitted that he doesn't prefer 3 at the back and it doesn't really suit the squad so why?

As Standaman says, we need to find a system that suits our strengths and have the courage to go with it, and stick with it, even if we get the odd tonking.
At this moment in time, that has to be 4231 or 433

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 17, 2020, 12:30:07 PM
My view is that we should play 4-3-3.  It seemed to be our most comfortable formation last season; we often came unstuck with anything else.

With inverted wingers, the full backs need to overlap to send in crosses or passes from the by-line with their natural feet.

We have no natural DCM so all the middle three need at times to contribute to defence and crowd the opposition's high value attackers out.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 17, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
My view is that we should play 4-3-3.  It seemed to be our most comfortable formation last season; we often came unstuck with anything else.

With inverted wingers, the full backs need to overlap to send in crosses or passes from the by-line with their natural feet.

We have no natural DCM so all the middle three need at times to contribute to defence and crowd the opposition's high value attackers out.

4-3-3 looks considerably better if we get Gallagher.

Gallagher Field Sawyers

Pereira Striker Diangana
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 17, 2020, 01:32:11 PM
4-3-3 looks considerably better if we get Gallagher.

Gallagher Field Sawyers

Pereira Striker Diangana

I agree - although I think Bilic will find room for Livermore...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 17, 2020, 02:45:47 PM

I think it's an adaption of an old countryside joke.

A driver asks a yokel for directions, the yokel's response was

"If you want to get there, I wouldn't start from here"

Yes indeed. The reverse logic of this situation. We are lost but with every turn we take there is a danger that we get more lost.

4-3-3 works but not with Pereira and Diangana because we have a traditional winger and an inverted winger and that does nothing for our balance. None of the 3 at the back options work either. Our default probably should be 4-2-3-1 but our other potential signings or in particular Krovinovic seem to heading in other contradictory directions.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on September 17, 2020, 02:51:02 PM
We do need a goal hungry striker. Even last night, chances were not put into the back of the net. The crosses kept coming, it was the finishing which was missing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 17, 2020, 03:42:41 PM
Yes indeed. The reverse logic of this situation. We are lost but with every turn we take there is a danger that we get more lost.

4-3-3 works but not with Pereira and Diangana because we have a traditional winger and an inverted winger and that does nothing for our balance. None of the 3 at the back options work either. Our default probably should be 4-2-3-1 but our other potential signings or in particular Krovinovic seem to heading in other contradictory directions.

Do we have to be symmetrical?  Personally i think too much stock is put in to that at times. I'd put it in the same category as needing centre halves that use different feet as just not that important.  Good players, or a good system, or a good understanding etc will overcome that.



 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pelada on September 17, 2020, 08:15:20 PM
Gallagher has signed
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 17, 2020, 08:20:32 PM
433 time
Field/Livermore  Gallagher sawyers and maybe some balance
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 18, 2020, 12:30:00 AM
We now have a 27 man squad.

                                                      GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,20210)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)            Field  (22, 2022) 
                                  Harper *(19,2022)                           
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)
                                       
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)


* under 21 player does not count toward the Premier League 25 man squad.

Gallagher's versatility gives us a few different options in midfield. Bilic seems set on bringing Krovinovic into the club, I don't get it and wouldn't want to commit funds now or in the future to achieve that deal but given that Bilic is so wedded to the idea I suspect it will happen.

The priority is now getting one or maybe two forwards in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 18, 2020, 10:12:22 AM
i can see us loaning Kipre out (bizarre -yes) and maybe Edwardes
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on September 18, 2020, 12:11:02 PM
We haven't got enough attacking midfielders.

Against Leicester we went onto the field with 8 defenders. The 5 at the back, 2 defensive midfielders and a goalkeeper.  The only attacking players we had were Roninson, Pereira and Diangana.

Other options in midfield, Harper and Field are also defensive midfielders.

No surprise we had no shots on target.  If we go into every match with these players and mind set we will play well until we go one down then there is no way we will have the players to dig us out and hence just crumble.

We need someone like Harvey Barnes.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 18, 2020, 12:50:15 PM

Gallagher's versatility gives us a few different options in midfield. Bilic seems set on bringing Krovinovic into the club, I don't get it and wouldn't want to commit funds now or in the future to achieve that deal but given that Bilic is so wedded to the idea I suspect it will happen.


I'd say Slav seems keen on 433 with his intent to sign Krovinovic. Agree regards the balance of the side, think it means we will see more of Furlong so there's an outlet on the right.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 19, 2020, 02:21:16 PM
This is how i see things. We have to go either 433 or 4231.

We need to address

- Furlong doesn't appear good enough defensively. O'Shea was great positionally at RB and good at stopping crosses. He goes back to RB.

- The spine of the team. Defence dire in the middle and a lack of quality in the middle and up top. Ivanovic and Hegazi coming in at CD is what we should do IMO but i'd be happy to see Ivanovic Ajayi. Gallagher comes straight in to CM. We must sign Grant & I'd say Deeney too (as back up and experience) while getting rid off all 3 existing strikers.

- Pereira needs to be in the middle

- Johnstone is not good enough. Not even close.

We should go

Button
O'Shea
Ivanovic
Hegazi/Ajayi
Gibbs (Townsend while he's suspended)

Gallagher
Sawyers

Diangana (RW)
Pereira
Grosicki (LW)

Grant/New striker

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 19, 2020, 02:22:29 PM
This is how i see things. We have to go either 433 or 4231.

We need to address

- Furlong doesn't appear good enough defensively. O'Shea was great positionally at RB and good at stopping crosses. He goes back to RB.

- The spine of the team. Defence dire in the middle and a lack of quality in the middle and up top. Ivanovic and Hegazi coming in at CD is what we should do IMO but i'd be happy to see Ivanovic Ajayi. Gallagher comes straight in to CM. We must sign Grant & I'd say Deeney too (as back up and experience) while getting rid off all 3 existing strikers.

- Pereira needs to be in the middle

- Johnstone is not good enough. Not even close.

We should go

Button
O'Shea
Ivanovic
Hegazi/Ajayi
Gibbs (Townsend while he's suspended)

Gallagher
Sawyers

Diangana (RW)
Pereira
Grosicki (LW)

Grant/New striker

Totally agree with most of this.

Definitely a starting point.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: saml30 on September 19, 2020, 02:23:26 PM
Clearly 5 at the back isn’t working
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 19, 2020, 02:29:32 PM
Clearly 5 at the back isn’t working

Doesn't matter if we play with a back 5 or 4 if we have a ghost in goal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Aztech on September 19, 2020, 02:33:46 PM
Doesn't matter if we play with a back 5 or 4 if we have a ghost in goal.

It would make a difference if the defensive unit was premier league quality. In my opinion the entire unit needs upgrading if we have any chance to survive. That’s not going to happen.

Our keeper isn’t great however anyone who thinks replacing him will make us a good team is dreaming.

When Johnstone was at Vile he played behind a decent defence and at the time was rated by many.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 19, 2020, 03:50:52 PM
It would make a difference if the defensive unit was premier league quality. In my opinion the entire unit needs upgrading if we have any chance to survive. That’s not going to happen.

Our keeper isn’t great however anyone who thinks replacing him will make us a good team is dreaming.

When Johnstone was at Vile he played behind a decent defence and at the time was rated by many.

We need to play the system that suits the best 11 and 5 across the back isn't it and it means we don't get the best from Grady and Pereira.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 19, 2020, 03:54:03 PM
We need to play the system that suits the best 11 and 5 across the back isn't it and it means we don't get the best from Grady and Pereira.

I think most of us would prefer a back 4 than 5, but still serious problems with the quality or lack of with many of the defenders.

I'm also amazed that any Albion fan could seriously want to keep Sam Johnstone in goal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on September 19, 2020, 04:12:57 PM
We can debate systems and tactics all day long but the main fact remains we have a squad nowhere near this level. I don’t see why anyone would be surprised by our start. We’ve been poor since Xmas. This team will finish bottom by a long way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 19, 2020, 04:17:33 PM
We can debate systems and tactics all day long but the main fact remains we have a squad nowhere near this level. I don’t see why anyone would be surprised by our start. We’ve been poor since Xmas. This team will finish bottom by a long way.

I hate to say it but I agree with you.

Being a bit pedantic we played our best football last season in that six game spell where we won at Millwall, Bristol City etc. I'm sure that was after Christmas.

But yeah, you're right whatever system we play we're still way short at this level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: bangkokbaggie on September 19, 2020, 04:18:12 PM
I think I have read in the past that Bilic employs zonal marking and if true could this be part of the problem? Could it be that it's not so much the players being good enough defensively but more to do with the fact we simply don't have the the right players to play zonal marking and might possibly explain why Johnstone (not sure what he was like at Villa) is always rooted to his line.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 19, 2020, 04:22:32 PM
I think I have read in the past that Bilic employs zonal marking and if true could this be part of the problem? Could it be that it's not so much the players being good enough defensively but more to do with the fact we simply don't have the the right players to play zonal marking and might possibly explain why Johnstone (not sure what he was like at Villa) is always rooted to his line.

No, we switched from zonal to man-marking half-way through last season and have carried on the same way this season. Also, regardless of how the defenders track the opposition players that has nothing to do with Johnstone being stuck on his goal line.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBASweden on September 19, 2020, 04:25:14 PM
                   Button
Furlong Hegazi Ajayi/Ivanovic O'Shea
                   Field
Pereira Gallagher Sawyers Diangana
               Robinson

Think this set up would help with Sawyers defensive issues and play the ball through the midfield
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on September 19, 2020, 04:32:15 PM
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Ivanovic Gibbs
Field Livermore Gallagher
Pereira Robinson Diangana

Stop playing a back 5!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Brooklynbaggie on September 19, 2020, 05:08:37 PM
I also think we should go back to a back four. This needs to be organised by a vocal keeper that commands his area. I don’t know enough about Button but Johnstone is going to change. If we’re going to play around with things let’s us do it in front of the defence (formation that is).
A better league with better players is not the time for us to play a new formation with a team that is in essence the same as last years. We need better players for positions as only a few look comfortable at this level and understand the need and importance of keeping possession.
I don’t think the formations we played last year were wrong, just at times the personnel chosen or introduced were questionable.
But we got promoted so what do I know.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 22, 2020, 11:06:15 PM
The system needs better players.
We need shot of some players off wages so we can recruit.

I would give austin a free transfer just to get him off the books his legs have gone. Phillips been a waste of space doesnt look anywhere near fit or interested. HRK needs releasing next summer when his contract up a long with bartley.

Need to get Harper out on loan.
Realistically I would like a gk cm and cf w2 but it ain't going to happen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 22, 2020, 11:26:59 PM
The system needs better players.
We need shot of some players off wages so we can recruit.

I would give austin a free transfer just to get him off the books his legs have gone. Phillips been a waste of space doesnt look anywhere near fit or interested. HRK needs releasing next summer when his contract up a long with bartley.

Need to get Harper out on loan.
Realistically I would like a gk cm and cf w2 but it ain't going to happen.

If Austin is on £50k a week, he’s not going on a free. I reckon it costs you the best part of £1.5m.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 22, 2020, 11:28:23 PM
If Austin is on £50k a week, he’s not going on a free. I reckon it costs you the best part of £1.5m.

Yeah we aren't going to let Austin walk on a free unless somebody else is picking up what is left of his contract. I'm still hoping a few championship clubs will get desperate as we approach the end of the window, although the window between us and the championship closes later so we are going to have to be patient.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darbolina on September 23, 2020, 09:17:53 AM
I'm beginning to think we need to solidify a lot more - play a 4-5-1 bit like how we did under Roy, so a backline with Ivanovic and Hegazi involved. Maybe push Semi into DM to solidify us a bit more. This means we could push Sawyers and Gallagher forward in front of Semi with Pereira and Diangana on the wings and God knows upfront (Tea lady better than HRK or Austin so maybe only robinson is an admittedly poor option). We're running out of options a bit but I think it's clear we can break onto teams but look ropey at the back.

wonder if we'll ever sign an actual striker?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: letmereadposts on September 23, 2020, 09:23:02 AM
We're about £50 million short of a premier league starting 11, based on certain players not seemingly stepping up after the first couple of games. Hopefully the team can maintain shape for 90 mins, certain players can step up sooner rather than later and any signings - including our forthcoming striker whoever that may be - all work out.

If we could take things to the last day I would be tempted to accept this now. Early days however, and a couple of consecutive wins with strong performances from new additions could completely change belief across the whole club.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 23, 2020, 08:41:55 PM
We're about £50 million short of a premier league starting 11, based on certain players not seemingly stepping up after the first couple of games. Hopefully the team can maintain shape for 90 mins, certain players can step up sooner rather than later and any signings - including our forthcoming striker whoever that may be - all work out.

If we could take things to the last day I would be tempted to accept this now. Early days however, and a couple of consecutive wins with strong performances from new additions could completely change belief across the whole club.
To be devils advocate...is the striker the issue , I actually think CR7 😄 is and can be ok, if we sign a new striker at say 14-18m ....a) what do we do with Robinson?, B) what if they don’t hit the ground running?
Would we be better trying to get a Kante/Makelle type player in and putting the money in to that position along with a keeper ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: letmereadposts on September 23, 2020, 08:52:22 PM
To be devils advocate...is the striker the issue , I actually think CR7 😄 is and can be ok, if we sign a new striker at say 14-18m ....a) what do we do with Robinson?, B) what if they don’t hit the ground running?
Would we be better trying to get a Kante/Makelle type player in and putting the money in to that position along with a keeper ?

It’s a great point. Last season people questioned “how do we replace 50 goals strike force” and the answer was “From midfield!” Same premise in adding more solid quality in the middle.

I like Robinson for where our squad is now I’m pleased to have him and like his movement. Not as limited as some believe him to be and let’s not forget he scored the promotion goal!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on September 23, 2020, 09:08:45 PM
If Austin is on £50k a week, he’s not going on a free. I reckon it costs you the best part of £1.5m.

I'd take a free transfer over a loan and subsidising his wages.  Hand snapped off.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 23, 2020, 09:11:42 PM
Was advised that this might be the best place for now to discuss contracts so yeah. Austin, HRK, Phillips, Townsend, Grosiki, Peltier, Gibbs expiring in 9 months.

200k pw saved+ if/when we go down. Most have nothing to contribute, most have no transfer value. Would be happy to let them go at Xmas for frees or nominals.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 23, 2020, 09:16:47 PM
Was advised that this might be the best place for now to discuss contracts so yeah. Austin, HRK, Phillips, Townsend, Grosiki, Peltier, Gibbs expiring in 9 months.

200k pw saved+ if/when we go down. Most have nothing to contribute, most have no transfer value. Would be happy to let them go at Xmas for frees or nominals.

I would wager that three or four of them will get extensions. Especially if we’re relegated.

HRK, Phillips, Townsend and one of either Peltier or Gibbs
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 23, 2020, 09:19:37 PM
I would wager that three or four of them will get extensions. Especially if we’re relegated.

HRK, Phillips, Townsend and one of either Peltier or Gibbs

The board want shooting if they give any of them extensions IMO.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 23, 2020, 09:21:43 PM
The board want shooting if they give any of them extensions IMO.

Makes the job easier for Dowling.

More disappointingly, given the lack of monies available I’m not sure I trust us to sign much better !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on September 23, 2020, 09:37:40 PM
No, we switched from zonal to man-marking half-way through last season and have carried on the same way this season. Also, regardless of how the defenders track the opposition players that has nothing to do with Johnstone being stuck on his goal line.
So we switched around the time results starting going pear shaped... interesting.  I remember at the time Bilic saying things about tightening up at the back; we didn't seem to do that very much, but maybe we lost the attacking freedom zonal marking gave us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 23, 2020, 09:49:06 PM
Makes the job easier for Dowling.

More disappointingly, given the lack of monies available I’m not sure I trust us to sign much better !!

Well they can't have any excuses as they still havre the lists from last year drawn up.  :o
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 23, 2020, 09:57:14 PM
So we switched around the time results starting going pear shaped... interesting.  I remember at the time Bilic saying things about tightening up at the back; we didn't seem to do that very much, but maybe we lost the attacking freedom zonal marking gave us.

I’m not sure how zonal marking could contribute to attacking freedom?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 23, 2020, 10:02:43 PM
I would wager that three or four of them will get extensions. Especially if we’re relegated.

HRK, Phillips, Townsend and one of either Peltier or Gibbs

I wouldn’t be surprised either but we absolutely shouldn’t give any of those new contracts, except possibly Townsend who may just be ok back up in the championship and is probably on modest wages.

Whilst on the subject of wages, it’s been mentioned a few times players have had 100% increases for promotion to the premiership. I have no idea if it’s true (it seems high to me) but if it is I hope we seriously consider how we structure contracts moving forwards so as not to hamstring us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 23, 2020, 10:06:27 PM
Was advised that this might be the best place for now to discuss contracts so yeah. Austin, HRK, Phillips, Townsend, Grosiki, Peltier, Gibbs expiring in 9 months.

200k pw saved+ if/when we go down. Most have nothing to contribute, most have no transfer value. Would be happy to let them go at Xmas for frees or nominals.

It makes you think that perhaps the 2 year plan to get promoted had some thinking behind it. All those could have been replaced for "free" as it were - letting them go at the end of the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: ttree30 on September 23, 2020, 10:29:01 PM
We can debate systems and tactics all day long but the main fact remains we have a squad nowhere near this level. I don’t see why anyone would be surprised by our start. We’ve been poor since Xmas. This team will finish bottom by a long way.

Sadly I agree. I think this is the weakest Albion PL team since Megson’s first promotion side, and arguably they were a lot more resilient.

There are huge weaknesses everywhere you look - front to back, and the areas in between. We can’t keep clean sheets, we don’t have the ability to break at pace and we don’t have any sort of reliable goalscorer. That’s a recipe for disaster.

Even the appalling Johnny Giles/Nobby Stiles/Ron Saunders assembly of 1986 was probably no worse (4 wins all season - 2 of them against Blues) and Don Howe’s 1973 failures had several good players (the Browns, Wile, Robertson, Cantello, Hartford, Johnston) who were poorly led and motivated.

I’ve been watching the Albion for nearly 50 years, and I don’t like the way this side looks at all. How I’d love to be proved wrong.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 23, 2020, 10:53:30 PM
It makes you think that perhaps the 2 year plan to get promoted had some thinking behind it. All those could have been replaced for "free" as it were - letting them go at the end of the season.

Quite possibly Mark. It really does look more and more like the board were not prepared for this promotion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 23, 2020, 11:15:08 PM
Was advised that this might be the best place for now to discuss contracts so yeah. Austin, HRK, Phillips, Townsend, Grosiki, Peltier, Gibbs expiring in 9 months.

200k pw saved+ if/when we go down. Most have nothing to contribute, most have no transfer value. Would be happy to let them go at Xmas for frees or nominals.

Austin Phillips grosicki peltier Townsend Gibbs yes. Hrk fine as third choice.
Think Bartley contract expires too he's another one I would let go on free
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 23, 2020, 11:18:11 PM
Austin Phillips grosicki peltier Townsend Gibbs yes. Hrk fine as third choice.
Think Bartley contract expires too he's another one I would let go on free

Yes thats right, hes on about 15- 20k pw in the EFL too. It's a no from me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on September 24, 2020, 09:44:41 AM
I’m not sure how zonal marking could contribute to attacking freedom?
I think the idea is that players (maybe full backs in particular) won't be dragged around the box at corners or other set pieces so they can be up more quickly on the break.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 24, 2020, 11:38:02 AM
Quite possibly Mark. It really does look more and more like the board were not prepared for this promotion.
Fully agree with this, it seems to have thrown a spanner in the works from a planning perspective, however Covid was not planned for and its a bloody good job we did get up, planned or not.

New set of plans required which are currently being drawn up on the hoof.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on September 24, 2020, 12:00:51 PM
In Jenkins' leaving speech, he said that he thought transfers would go down to the wire.
Members on here have identified that we have circa £200k per week of wages that we'd like to move on, other clubs must have similar problems

Swiss Ramble, this morning, have said that English top 6 clubs stand to lose the most from BCD games. Arsenal, for example, will lose around £500k per week in gate money.

There will be some very good players surplus to requirements at the end of the window if we hold our nerve.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on September 24, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
In Jenkins' leaving speech, he said that he thought transfers would go down to the wire.
Members on here have identified that we have circa £200k per week of wages that we'd like to move on, other clubs must have similar problems

Swiss Ramble, this morning, have said that English top 6 clubs stand to lose the most from BCD games. Arsenal, for example, will lose around £500k per week in gate money.

There will be some very good players surplus to requirements at the end of the window if we hold our nerve.
As long as the TV money stays the same, with our gates being one of the lowest in the prem, we actually stand to lose less compared to most other clubs
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 25, 2020, 09:55:56 AM
all relative though, a bit like buying / selling houses,
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on September 26, 2020, 07:53:47 PM
As I’ve mentioned before, we are so close to being a good team. Gallagher and Krovinovic should sort the midfield. We need a good striker ie Karlan Grant, I did however think Robinson was excellent today.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 07:54:27 PM
As I’ve mentioned before, we are so close to being a good team. Gallagher and Krovinovic should sort the midfield. We need a good striker ie Karlan Grant, I did however think Robinson was excellent today.

We can't defend.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darby009 on September 26, 2020, 07:57:57 PM
We can't defend.

This may be true ... but hang on we have played 3 of the top sides Who are expecting To be up there this year, give them some slack..

If the same was happening against the bottom 10 Teams then I would agree 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 26, 2020, 08:00:05 PM
This may be true ... but hang on we have played 3 of the top sides Who are expecting To be up there this year, give them some slack..

If the same was happening against the bottom 10 Teams then I would agree

I agree with you 100 per cent. Very unlucky today. On another day that third goal is ruled out. Other than not wanting HRK anywhere near the team I am upbeat overall.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 08:00:07 PM
This may be true ... but hang on we have played 3 of the top sides Who are expecting To be up there this year, give them some slack..

If the same was happening against the bottom 10 Teams then I would agree

Just found out we've broken the PL record for most goals conceded in first 3 matches and we haven't played either of the only 2 truly outstanding teams in the division.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on September 26, 2020, 08:00:42 PM
We can't defend.

Surrendering the midfield after 60 minutes every week doesn’t help  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on September 26, 2020, 08:01:25 PM
At the back is where our problems lie.

I'd spend the Grant money on an upgrade for Furlong and another centre half.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
At the back is where our problems lie.

I'd spend the Grant money on an upgrade for Furlong and another centre half.

gOaLkEePeR.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 26, 2020, 08:04:41 PM
At the back is where our problems lie.

I'd spend the Grant money on an upgrade for Furlong and another centre half.

I’ve made this point all summer - signing a top quality centre half should have been the priority - especially with such a weak back line, many of whom are new to this division.

Ivanovic will help but it needs more in my view.

Further weight is added to the argument when they have no intention of changing the keeeper.

Signing Grant will be pointless if we are conceding three and four goals a game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on September 26, 2020, 08:04:56 PM
gOaLkEePeR.

I fear that ship has sailed. Bilic has seen him for 14 months now and would have dropped him by now if it was going to happen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
Just found out we've broken the PL record for most goals conceded in first 3 matches and we haven't played either of the only 2 truly outstanding teams in the division.

Thoughts on this new unwanted record?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boingboing1989 on September 26, 2020, 08:06:33 PM
I fear that ship has sailed. Bilic has seen him for 14 months now and would have dropped him by now if it was going to happen.
Think it's more about we have no one else to bring in and whoever else is out there would cost us too much of our meagre budget. Johnstone needs to go for his own good, he knows the fans dislike him and his confidence looks shot to pieces. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on September 26, 2020, 08:07:38 PM
Thoughts on this new unwanted record?

Embarrassing. There's no hope of this side grinding our the results that will keep us up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on September 26, 2020, 08:08:44 PM
Think it's more about we have no one else to bring in and whoever else is out there would cost us too much of our meagre budget. Johnstone needs to go for his own good, he knows the fans dislike him and his confidence looks shot to pieces.

Inclined to agree. But we have nothing better to replace him with. I'll eat my hat if we do business for a keeper between now and the end of the window.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on September 26, 2020, 08:09:15 PM
Thoughts on this new unwanted record?
Records are there to be broken, could'nt give a toss.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 08:10:11 PM
Records are there to be broken, could'nt give a toss.

The implications of it though?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 26, 2020, 08:10:35 PM
Thoughts on this new unwanted record?

This unwanted record doesn’t mean anything to me

The bigger picture does.

A team who concedes this many goals does not survive in this division.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 26, 2020, 08:13:43 PM
This unwanted record doesn’t mean anything to me

The bigger picture does.

A team who concedes this many goals does not survive in this division.

I didn’t mean from a labelling perspective, I meant it's implications, what it means.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Aztech on September 26, 2020, 08:16:09 PM
Thoughts on this new unwanted record?

We have one of the worst squads in premier league history, as such not really that surprised.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 26, 2020, 08:17:24 PM
Thoughts on this new unwanted record?

I said before the season started we could trouble the season record for most goals conceded. At the current rate we will smash it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on September 26, 2020, 08:17:44 PM
I didn’t mean from a labelling perspective, I meant it's implications, what it means.

I knew what you meant mate - the bigger picture of that record is worrying.

That does not change with this current group of defenders/goalkeepers.

Unable to defend, individual mistakes, a dysfunctional midfield & a side which crumbles under pressure

Not a good recipe
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boingboing1989 on September 26, 2020, 08:23:02 PM
The five at the back is killing us, Our fullbacks tuck in when the other team have the ball giving us 5 in the box to defend but we're still letting the crosses in which over the course of 90 minutes is going to end up in a goal. Ditch the 5, go back to 4 3 3 and hopefully the addition of Gallagher's energy will help us out defensively. But the way we are going at the minute, no matter how good you defend if the plan is too force them wide to pump it into the box and hope our big centre halves can deal with it is just not working.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 26, 2020, 08:28:51 PM
We have to ditch the 5 at the back. Bilic and his team might feel once again that there are signs it's working, but we didn't have a chance in the second half for a third game running and we have now shipped 11 goals.

Atop faffing and go 451/433 or whatever you want to call it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: saml30 on September 26, 2020, 09:25:36 PM
So we are conceding goals for fun and Hegazi is nowhere to be seen, still the best CB at the club IMO. Got to go O’Shea Ajayi Hegazi and preferably a new LB for me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 26, 2020, 10:00:04 PM
So we are conceding goals for fun and Hegazi is nowhere to be seen, still the best CB at the club IMO. Got to go O’Shea Ajayi Hegazi and preferably a new LB for me

Hegaxi is injured. What was wrong with Bartley today?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 26, 2020, 10:10:46 PM
Hegaxi is injured. What was wrong with Bartley today?

Irrelevant. Until Johnstone is pretending to be a professional keeper elsewhere he is worthless.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 26, 2020, 11:15:15 PM
Irrelevant. Until Johnstone is pretending to be a professional keeper elsewhere he is worthless.

Not irrelevant at all. I responded to a question about Hegazi. No more, no less.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on September 27, 2020, 01:07:42 AM
To be fair to our defence can only think of two occasions other than their goals that they got shots off. Against Fat Frank's £200 million plus team the lads didn't look out of place. Pereira's flick to Kanu was something special had me gushing when he did that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adamstv on September 27, 2020, 10:01:35 AM
What I am trying to remember is that a lot of these guys have never played Premier League before and it takes time to adjust to the pace and different qualities the league brings (ask Silva who has won 20 major honours !) .

We are trying a different formation and Bilic recognises we have a limited budget and cannot go out an spend £50m on a left back. It is trying to make things work with what we have. I have seen an improvement game on game this season - Leicester ok first half but lost out to 2 penalties, Everton competed well for 40 minutes but going down to 10 men cost us and Chelsea, well we saw the improvement in play and finishing.

It will take time and hopefully with the players to come in and the confidence we will have gained from seeing that we can compete will lead us onto better things in the months to come.

I believe we can stay up. Let’s hope the team believes as much as me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: saml30 on September 27, 2020, 10:28:12 AM
Hegaxi is injured. What was wrong with Bartley today?

He is injured but let’s be honest he doesn’t look like he is going to be in Slavs plans. As for Bartley, he was ok yesterday nothing more, he should have got out quicker to Hudson-Odoi for a start but he is the senior CB in a side that have conceded at least 3 goals a game so far, you can’t say any of the back 5/6 played well if we have conceded 3 goals surely
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 27, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
He is injured but let’s be honest he doesn’t look like he is going to be in Slavs plans. As for Bartley, he was ok yesterday nothing more, he should have got out quicker to Hudson-Odoi for a start but he is the senior CB in a side that have conceded at least 3 goals a game so far, you can’t say any of the back 5/6 played well if we have conceded 3 goals surely

I agree with much of what you say and would like to see Hegazi in the side when ready. I still say Bartley was excellent yesterday.... it’s all about opinions of course but he held things together yesterday against world class players. If not for the keeper on their first goal we win that game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on September 27, 2020, 11:35:48 AM
Thought Bartley did well yesterday as did some young defenders in front of a poor keeper under pressure from some of the best attacking payers in the league. With a better keeper, some better decisions from the officials i.e. foul on furlong for the second and a handball for the equaliser, then the 3 points are ours. 

Just a mention for Diangana who worked hard in an unfamiliar role to try to help Townsend as much as he could on that side.

Disappointed with only 1 point against a Chelsea side well versed in the shirt pull, the shove in the back, the protection of the man with the ball by team mates blocking off challengers, and the freedom of the park in the second half to do all of it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 29, 2020, 08:45:55 PM
We now have a 28 man squad.

                                                      GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,20210)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)            Field            (22, 2022) 
                                  Harper *(19,2022)            Krovinovic    (25,2021)               
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)
                                       
                                                               CF   
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)


* under 21 player does not count toward the Premier League 25 man squad.

I am fairly certain that we will add a striker which will take us to 29 which is at least 4 too many to be manageable.

However the bigger concern is that Bilic seems to have switched to a back 3 with a squad that is largely based on the one that got promoted and absolutely not been built with any of the generally used 3 at back formations.

Essentially there are 2 basic set ups

3-4-3 and  3-5-2. The latter has a number of variants with the set up of the front 7 but in truth we are setting up and in the former and to get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch it is the only set up available


Setting up as a 3-4-3

                             Johnstone

                 O'Shea    Ivanovic   Ajayi
 
        Furlong    Gallagher Krovonovic Gibbs

         Pereira          Robinson        Diangana

That's my best line up in that set up and here are the structural problems

1. No cover at RWB
2. Diangana is playing wide left rather than an inverted wide role
3. All midfield combinations don't really work we need two midfield all rounders. Gallagher plus either Livermore or Krovinovic. Everything else does not work and at a stroke the Albion careers of Field and Sawyers are as good as over.
4. We are very dependent on CB's progressing the ball from the back, and there are possibly question marks over the ability of the alternatives to do this.

Switching to a back 4 makes makes the squad more coherent and by comparison the back 3 is an act of tactical vandalism.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 29, 2020, 08:52:50 PM
Well summed up Stan.

We simply have to change to 4231 in my eyes but even then the 2 sitting midfielders may not quite be right with who we have on board but it does mean the front 4 and back 4 will be far more effective.

Let’s hope Slav was using a back 5 to “make do” and now the correct players are on board we can see a return to a back 4. 433 would be ok but in my view doesn’t get the best out of Pereira and a 4231 means Grant (If signed), Pereira, Diangana and Robinson can all start with inverted wingers on each side and Pereira as a 10. Grant and Robinson interchangeable.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 29, 2020, 09:19:34 PM
Well summed up Stan.

We simply have to change to 4231 in my eyes but even then the 2 sitting midfielders may not quite be right with who we have on board but it does mean the front 4 and back 4 will be far more effective.

Let’s hope Slav was using a back 5 to “make do” and now the correct players are on board we can see a return to a back 4. 433 would be ok but in my view doesn’t get the best out of Pereira and a 4231 means Grant (If signed), Pereira, Diangana and Robinson can all start with inverted wingers on each side and Pereira as a 10. Grant and Robinson interchangeable.

I am not sure what Slaven is trying to achieve with the 3 but nothing in that the new players that are arriving (Krovonovic nor Grant) bring that clearly enables a back rather than a 3.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on September 29, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
I am not sure what Slaven is trying to achieve with the 3 but nothing in that the new players that are arriving (Krovonovic nor Grant) bring that clearly enables a back rather than a 3.

Think the 3 at the back was just a reflection on the lack of midfield options once he discounted Harper and Field as starters.   Didn't actually have three to make up the 4-3-3.  Once fit he can perm three from the four of Gallagher, Krov, Livermore and Sawyers a totally different situation that allows more flexibility.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 29, 2020, 11:36:30 PM
Agree I think the key for Bilic is that he wants to keep Pereira and Diangana as high up the pitch and allow the to pick up space in between the lines as much as possible. I think the 3 at the back was worked on to allow that as well as counter other teams that play 3 at the back and also perhaps an attempt to make us more solid (disaster). Like Stan says, the recruitment hasn't pointed to a back 3 being a default formation.

I expect a 433 to be our staple and am expecting something like this:

                        Johnstone
                         (Button)

O'Shea   Ivanovic   Ajayi   Gibbs
(Furlong) (Bartley) (Kipre)(Townsend)

                          Livermore
                         (Field)
        Gallagher              Sawyers         
        (Harper)              (Krovinovic)

 Pereira                                  Diangana
 (Phillips)                              (Edwards)
                      Robinson
                        (Grant?)
 
Peltier to offer another option at right back so O'Shea becomes the 5th option at centre back.
 
Robson-Kanu to be the third choice striker if we only sign one striker, if we sign two then I expect him to be third choice option in the wide positions or gives us another forward so Robinson/Grant? can play there.

Grosicki to be third choice wide option but expect if we get two strikers he will be gone with the players below:

Zohore
Austin
Hegazi

The transfer business does intimate that Bilic does want the ability to change formations and styles as the season unfolds, there are a few players who can play various positions in there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 30, 2020, 09:00:04 AM
Grosicki to be third choice wide option but expect if we get two strikers he will be gone with the players below:

Zohore
Austin
Hegazi



Nice idea but beyond Grosicki I'm not sure how we can offload that three without paying a large proportion of their wages as loans or giving them away.

I'm also not sure which of 3 or 4 at the back would suit a veteran like Ivanovitch  - probably 3 with Ajayi and/ot Kipre covering the speedy breaks by the opposition?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 30, 2020, 10:12:16 AM
Nice idea but beyond Grosicki I'm not sure how we can offload that three without paying a large proportion of their wages as loans or giving them away.

I'm also not sure which of 3 or 4 at the back would suit a veteran like Ivanovitch  - probably 3 with Ajayi and/ot Kipre covering the speedy breaks by the opposition?

For sure, this is my view based on the recruitment thus far and rumours from reliable sources like John Percy. If we can't work out arrangements for offloading some of these players then the incomings won't happen and I agree - it won't be easy.

Regards the back line, I don't see why Ivanovic can't play in a back 4 and I expect Ajayi to be his partner. As we know, Ajayi is quick and Bartley isn't slow for a centre back, I haven't seen enough of Kipre to comment. McAuley was playing in a back 4 at the age of 37 with Olsson/Evans alongside him, neither of which are pacey. If, as I expect, we do switch to a back 4, it will be interesting to see how we press the ball and where our defensive line is. This season we have sat extremely deep - which I don't think suits us, as Baggies has pointed out on other threads - but that generally wasn't the case last season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 15, 2020, 12:54:05 AM
I think with grant signing we wont be able to sign any more players until we get some bodies out.

Zohore may well be off even on loan (gets some wages off the book) we could do with getting shot of Austin too he cant run.

We have too many centre backs also.. is it worth getting kipre out on loan for half a season (if he is one for the future)

I think having brought in Gallagher and krovonovic one of sm field or harper has to go out on loan to championship. Harper for me as he is younger and field is a holding midfield player which we dont really have.

Also argument for Edwards going out and getting some football at least until January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on October 15, 2020, 08:43:34 AM
You mention we have too many centre backs but in my view it is an area we have neglected.

I still cannot believe that given our horrendous start to the season that we have not been minded to strengthen that area. Signing Grant will be like putting a plaster on an open wound.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 15, 2020, 09:52:33 AM
With the addition of Grant we are one over the 25 man squad limit we need two out to get one in. I think with Austin turning down the opportunity (?) to join Derby even if we can Zohore out the door then that will be all folks. I will stick my neck out and say this is will be it with Zohore not named in the squad.

                                                       GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,20210)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)            Field            (22, 2022)
                                  Harper *(19,2022)            Krovinovic    (25,2021)               
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Grosiki (31, 2021)                      Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)       
Phillips (29 ,2022)     
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)
                                       
                                                               CF   
                                                   Grant (23, 2026)
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                         Austin (30,2021)   
                                                      Zohore   (25 2023)
                                                   


* under 21 player does not count toward the Premier League 25 man squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 16, 2020, 12:14:36 AM
You mention we have too many centre backs but in my view it is an area we have neglected.

I still cannot believe that given our horrendous start to the season that we have not been minded to strengthen that area. Signing Grant will be like putting a plaster on an open wound.

We do have too many centre backs whether we have enough competent ones is another question...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 16, 2020, 01:52:37 PM
It's quite a heavy squad in terms of numbers, even with Zohore and Grosicki seemingly moving on today, that's a squad of 27 (obviously younger players don't count towards Premier League registration).

With us being out of the League Cup and the FA Cup third round not starting until January - I am quite surprised in some ways. I thought we might try and clear a bit of space so there's some money to try a loan or something in January. I'm surprised and a little concerned that we don't appear to be moving on a centre back which may hint at the back three hanging around a little while yet.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on October 16, 2020, 02:12:12 PM
What's our squad average age now?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on October 16, 2020, 02:57:45 PM
When I look at our squad i think Pereira, Grant, Gallagher and Diangana are exciting young talent and probably about as good a front '4' as we could have hoped for.   

I then consider Ivanovic and Krovinovic and think we really need the two of you to step up up and be what Bilic seems to hope you can.

However you get to Livermore, Johnstone and Gibbs and feel they will really let us down in key areas, and we have little scope or prospect of any better alternative.

It's a shame actually that we seems quite near but also so far from being able to give this season a real go. 

Beyond those, it looks like Grosicki (unfortunately) and Zohore (fortunately) will go. It is a shame Austin doesn't see an option he is interested in.  The rest can do probably do a job to varying degrees although some wont get much game time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on October 16, 2020, 03:45:34 PM
If we're going to let go all of Grosicki, Zohore and Austin today and only bring in Grant, it's going to diminish our attacking options pretty significantly. Grosicki should stay or, failing that, Austin.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 16, 2020, 04:12:16 PM
You mention we have too many centre backs but in my view it is an area we have neglected.

I still cannot believe that given our horrendous start to the season that we have not been minded to strengthen that area. Signing Grant will be like putting a plaster on an open wound.

Yes, I can envisage teams like Burnley grabbing an early goal against our porous, ponderous, ill-organised  defence and going into mass defence mode which we found difficult to score against in the Championship with Pereira and Diangana.  This Grant guy better be worth the £15M.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on October 16, 2020, 11:24:07 PM
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Ivanovic Gibbs
Gallagher Livermore Krovinovic
Pereira Grant Diangana

Looks okay to me, will be a battle to stay up but can see us surprising teams. It’s a young team full of energy and should be pretty exciting on the counter attack.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 17, 2020, 01:08:00 AM
Final 27 man squad at least until January
     
                                                        GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,2021)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)            Field            (22, 2022)
                                  Harper *(19,2022)            Krovinovic    (25,2021)               
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Phillips (29 ,2022)                       Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)   
                         
                                                               CF   
                                                   Grant (23, 2026)
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                      Austin (30,2021)

Whatever anybody thinks of Grosicki it seems very obvious that he was not going to be played by Bilic nor for that matter was Zohore. At some point they come into the reckoning but not without an injury crisis of near biblical proportions.

Overall I remain a little bit uncomfortable as to how the team shape will evolve. Regardless of what I think of each player's  individual quality I don't have an XI that looks entirely right as a unit.  I suspect a lot hinges on what Gallagher brings to the party in Central Midfield, however at the end of the window I want to see an obvious first XI which looks comfortable in the Head Coach's preferred set up. I don't see it.     
 
   
                                                     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on October 17, 2020, 09:51:39 AM
I agree entirely Stan. A hell of a lot now rests on Ivanovic and Gallagher. I don't think a centre back signing alone fixes our broken defending as that comes from midfield, but it's a start, while we really need Gallagher to offer a lot in a defensive capacity, which is counter to the role he played at Charlton and Swansea.

I'm not sure we have made enough obvious upgrade signings to fit into and improve Bilic's first eleven. The best we can hope for at this point is that we have a punchers chance due to the attacking threat offered by Grant, Robinson, Pereira, Diangana, Gallagher and Krov.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 17, 2020, 11:05:10 AM
For me just getting 3 genuine midfielders in there to try and get some parity or better in the middle of the park is the first step to protecting the back four, even if there's not a natural 'defensive screening' type midfielder amongst them...and yes that means playing Pereira in the front 3 but with plenty of license to switch around and get on the ball.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pelada on October 17, 2020, 10:37:48 PM
I’d sooner go 3-5-2/3-4-3 with our team at this point in time and ask young Sam Field to sit in front of the back four to allow Sawyers/Gallagher/Krov etc to get about the pitch. I think that more congested midfield with a designated sitter like Sam would really help us find a balance.

I think Ajayi and O’Shea would both suit a back 3- just not sure Bartley is the right anchor so maybe time to ask Ivanovic.

Button

Ajayi
Ivanovic
OShea

Field

Gallagher
Livermore
Krov

Pereira
Diangana

Grant

I just think it gives us some versatility and some body in the midfield which is lacking when we have Sawyers paired with Livermore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 18, 2020, 07:06:05 PM
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Ivanovic Gibbs
Gallagher Livermore Krovinovic
Pereira Grant Diangana

Looks okay to me, will be a battle to stay up but can see us surprising teams. It’s a young team full of energy and should be pretty exciting on the counter attack.

Like the 4-3-3 because given the lack of a screening defender, we can't have just 2 in front of the defence.
As has been said by Standaman a lot of this rides on Gallagher's ability (and willingness) to defend.  We have a plethora of attacking midfielders so I can see them being swapped at 60 mins

Johnstone

Furlong         Ajayi  [Ivanovitch / Hegazi (60)]  Gibbs

             Gallagher     Livermore   [Sawyers / Krovinovic (60)]

      Pereira                   Robinson / Grant (60)                Diangana

If Robinson still in quarantine play Phillips.  If we need stronger defence to start play Field instead of Sawyers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on October 18, 2020, 08:26:15 PM
My favourite setup is 352.
But at this early stage of the season 433.
Back 4 O'Shea Ajay Ivan Gibbs
2 defensive midfielders one would be Field + ?
With Gallagher am box to box.
Front 3 are 2 magicians + grant.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 19, 2020, 11:52:36 PM
First line up with the full squad

                                            Johnstone

                    Furlong     Hegazi     Ivanovic     Townsend
 
                                         Livermore
                              Gallagher        Krovinovic

                        Pereira           Grant             Diangana

Observations it's Burnley so almost a unique set of circumstances they are now one of the few teams that actively give up possession. Centre Backs are really slow against any sort of pace they are going to have to sit deep and I really wouldn't want them defending big spaces. That means the midfield has to drop and I fear that the front 3 will see little of the ball in other games.

Pushing the play maker forward is a good idea and Krovinovic saw plenty of the ball. I think the midfield 3 is our best option at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 20, 2020, 12:13:30 AM
Big semi has to play with Ivanovic or we will get ruined and as you say generally have to sit back
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 20, 2020, 05:38:34 AM
Big semi has to play with Ivanovic or we will get ruined and as you say generally have to sit back

Having to sit back is not a bad thing for us. We are not going to out football teams in this league 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 20, 2020, 07:42:12 AM
Just a mention on last nights formation. I think most will say it was 433 but I'd describe it more as 4141 with Livermore playing deeper than the other two in CM and Pereira and Diangana slightly deeper than Grant in the loan striker role.

Sometimes it's just a play on numbers really, could call it 433, even 451 but for greater accuracy I'd have us down as 4141 last night.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on October 20, 2020, 07:48:38 AM
Agreed. That’s how I saw it too. Worth persevering with I think.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 26, 2020, 04:51:10 AM
Zohore isnt fancied out on loan
Grosicki isnt fancied potentially gone depending on outcome of review. Worst case for him he stays and goes when window reopens in 10 weeks. Best case his does business for us.
Hegazi hasnt been used much by billic who has opted for bartley quite often. Wages off books transfer fee in.

Will Austin go mls?

Our best 11 is pretty weak and our bench even more so. Going to be a long slog to January. Best 11 now;


               Johnstone
Furlong ajayi Ivanovic gibbs
Gallagher livermore krovonovic
    Periera diangana
                  Grant

Subs: button Townsend bartley sawyers Edward's harper Robinson

Worrying stuff. Thanks for pointing out I missed our luxury players off...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: sammyg on October 26, 2020, 07:40:00 AM
Zohore isnt fancied out on loan
Grosicki isnt fancied potentially gone depending on outcome of review. Worst case for him he stays and goes when window reopens in 10 weeks. Best case his does business for us.
Hegazi hasnt been used much by billic who has opted for bartley quite often. Wages off books transfer fee in.

Will Austin go mls?

Our best 11 is pretty weak and our bench even more so. Going to be a long slog to January. Best 11 now;


               Johnstone
Furlong ajayi Ivanovic gibbs
Gallagher livermore krovonovic
                  Grant

Subs: button Townsend bartley sawyers Edward's harper Robinson

Worrying stuff

It is worrying especially as we’re only starting with 9 players according to you! :-\
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on October 26, 2020, 08:32:41 AM
It is worrying especially as we’re only starting with 9 players according to you! :-\

Looking after Grady and MP before selling in January  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 26, 2020, 08:58:25 AM
It is worrying especially as we’re only starting with 9 players according to you! :-\

Starting with nine's a bit like changing the wheels on your car and forgetting they need tyres. Still, saves on the half time oranges. Every penny counts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 26, 2020, 12:40:34 PM
It is worrying especially as we’re only starting with 9 players according to you! :-\

Beechy is obviously Dowling in disguise, cost cutting get !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 26, 2020, 02:06:49 PM
Beechy is obviously Dowling in disguise, cost cutting get !

Sack the board, Lai out. I'm off to storm the glass doors at the ground once I've finished picking my nose.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 27, 2020, 07:24:52 AM
Still early doors with only two games having been played since the transfer window shut but it looks like our problems are predictably the centre of midfield and perhaps and a lack of quality at full back.

With the centre of midfield, I am not entirely sure what we do. It feels like 433 makes us more solid but we are stale going forward whilst our full backs struggle with being exposed. Perhaps Gibbs would fare better although I'm not sure he would defensively. Maybe with the three in there we could play Sawyers as the deepest midfielder instead of Livermore, which may make us better going forward but does feel a little lightweight.

We looked better yesterday in a 4231, we were more of a threat going forward. Does a double pivot of Krovinovic and Gallagher have enough to start a PL match which is a different kettle of fish to being on the attack for the last 60mins of a game? I'm not sure it does however it would give us the option of bringing in O'Shea at full back as we wouldn't be as reliant on the full backs in an attacking sense in this formation. It would be a sort of return to last season's initial blueprint albeit with some different personnel.

If we can, a ball winning midfielder and upgrade at right full back could go a long way to helping the balance of the side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 27, 2020, 08:08:46 AM
Still early doors with only two games having been played since the transfer window shut but it looks like our problems are predictably the centre of midfield and perhaps and a lack of quality at full back.

With the centre of midfield, I am not entirely sure what we do. It feels like 433 makes us more solid but we are stale going forward whilst our full backs struggle with being exposed. Perhaps Gibbs would fare better although I'm not sure he would defensively. Maybe with the three in there we could play Sawyers as the deepest midfielder instead of Livermore, which may make us better going forward but does feel a little lightweight.

We looked better yesterday in a 4231, we were more of a threat going forward. Does a double pivot of Krovinovic and Gallagher have enough to start a PL match which is a different kettle of fish to being on the attack for the last 60mins of a game? I'm not sure it does however it would give us the option of bringing in O'Shea at full back as we wouldn't be as reliant on the full backs in an attacking sense in this formation. It would be a sort of return to last season's initial blueprint albeit with some different personnel.

If we can, a ball winning midfielder and upgrade at right full back could go a long way to helping the balance of the side.

I mentioned this before we didnt play 4231 we remained at 4141 with Krovinovic dropping slightly deeper with Pereira joining Gallagher infield with Edwards left and Robinson right. Sometimes formations are a play on numbers though I'll give you that. Some might have called us 451 first half.

When Phillips came on he went to the right and Robinson more central..we looked better with Robinson on the right and Grant through the middle but then that's hardly surprising as any threat we have usually diminishes when Phillips enters the fray. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 27, 2020, 09:51:17 AM
I mentioned this before we didnt play 4231 we remained at 4141 with Krovinovic dropping slightly deeper with Pereira joining Gallagher infield with Edwards left and Robinson right. Sometimes formations are a play on numbers though I'll give you that. Some might have called us 451 first half.
 

Interesting, i'll have to go back and watch some more; I have only seen brief highlights and have relied on what I have read on here and from my brother who was watching. Agree though, formations are very different both on and off the ball. It would be interesting to see the average positions for the last 30mins yesterday as that is often a truer reflection. Even if it remains a 4141 with Krovinovic as the deepest player and Gallagher and Pereira ahead of him, I think my suggestion that it makes us weak off the ball rings true and that O'Shea in at full back could help that situation a little.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on October 27, 2020, 09:55:38 AM
Interesting, i'll have to go back and watch some more; I have only seen brief highlights and have relied on what I have read on here and from my brother who was watching. Agree though, formations are very different both on and off the ball. It would be interesting to see the average positions for the last 30mins yesterday as that is often a truer reflection. Even if it remains a 4141 with Krovinovic as the deepest player and Gallagher and Pereira ahead of him, I think my suggestion that it makes us weak off the ball rings true and that O'Shea in at full back could help that situation a little.

I agree to a large extent. There will be times when having three "ball players" in there doesnt work. We may need to mix it up a bit at times.

I would retain that midfield three against Fulham though and I'd push the team high up the pitch. Mitrovic is no mug but he's not particularly quick and we can afford a high line with Ajayi at the back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 27, 2020, 12:59:37 PM
I agree to a large extent. There will be times when having three "ball players" in there doesnt work. We may need to mix it up a bit at times.

I would retain that midfield three against Fulham though and I'd push the team high up the pitch. Mitrovic is no mug but he's not particularly quick and we can afford a high line with Ajayi at the back.

Yeah for sure, as Baggies has pointed out on various threads over the last weeks, defence isn't just about personnel, it is also about team shape and tactics. We look better playing higher up, we aren't a great defensive team so being on the front foot suits us more I think and as you say, Ajayi is a huge strength in that regard.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 27, 2020, 04:46:11 PM
Periera through the middle is a must even if thay means Robinson wide right or try krovonovic out here so he doesnt drop Livermore or if we go 2 up top and have periera behind.

Slaven needs to find the best system and 11 still
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 27, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
Periera through the middle is a must even if thay means Robinson wide right or try krovonovic out here so he doesnt drop Livermore or if we go 2 up top and have periera behind.

Slaven needs to find the best system and 11 still

Robinson looked good on the right last night. I think he has to start with Gallagher and Krov in the midfield and Pereira in the hole. Then you can build on that with the wide players and forwards and change those around. I also thought Grant looked a lot happier with Robinson on the pitch helping him out, he wasn't so isolated all of a sudden. The other option is the pace of Grosicki on the right - if he is still our player.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 07, 2020, 10:41:31 AM
The Fulham game was a mess. A number of chickens came home to roost. The issues have been there for a while but the game underlined them.

Chief of the issues going forward is that the only way to get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch at the same time is to play Pereira in the "10" role and Diangana wide left  in a 4-2-3-1. While fixing the balance of the team and moving Pereira into the middle which is arguably his best  position it creates other issues.

Firstly we have 4 wide right footed players and only the horribly out of form Phillips is a traditional winger. Robinson, Grosicki and Edwards are all probably best playing wide left as inverted wingers.

Secondly as a 10 we aren't going to get much defensively from Pereira (it's not what he's on the pitch for nor is it a lack of work rate.) the double pivot behind him really has to cover a lot of ground, particularly if the full backs push on in support of the wingers. We have two out and out playmakers in Krovinvic and Sawyers and moving Pereira into the 10 pretty much takes them out of the picture.

The default double pivot is Gallagher and Livermore. I would give Gallagher more license to get forward and use Livermore as the defensive anchor.

Defensively we are sitting deep if we have Ivanovic on the pitch. The defensive line has to take it's lead from it's slowest member. Ajayi might be quick and that speed and mobility is useful to have but in terms of holding a high defensive line it is slowest member of the back 4 that dictates that position not the quickest.

If we are sitting deep the question then becomes how do we transition the ball forward? If as is inevitable we start to have to go long having Pereira as the 10 particularly as Grant is absolutely not a traditional target man is not particularly helpful.

I am not entirely sure how Bilic fixes this. However I cut this I always seem to run into a situation where I need a slightly different player in a position to make things work or get a balance. It continues to bring into question the wisdom of getting the band back together this summer. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dudleylad on November 07, 2020, 11:45:19 AM

I am not entirely sure how Bilic fixes this. However I cut this I always seem to run into a situation where I need a slightly different player in a position to make things work or get a balance. It continues to bring into question the wisdom of getting the band back together this summer.

This was the biggest criticism of his time at West Ham, too many of the same midfielders.

The board have been far from perfect this window but Bilic cannot be ignored in this as the run of about 7 wins in 29 games begins to get worrying.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 07, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
This was the biggest criticism of his time at West Ham, too many of the same midfielders.

The board have been far from perfect this window but Bilic cannot be ignored in this as the run of about 7 wins in 29 games begins to get worrying.

Worryingly faced with a long term leaky defense he turned to a back 3 toward the end at West Ham and it made very little difference which was why it was disconcerting when he went to a back 3 here. West Ham saved their skin by appointing Moyes and he just did what Moyes does and pushed out a deep sitting bloc with a counter attack threat. My fear for this season is that this squad does not have that as an option, nor am I sure that I want that as the long term direction of travel.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 07, 2020, 01:19:10 PM
Worryingly faced with a long term leaky defense he turned to a back 3 toward the end at West Ham and it made very little difference which was why it was disconcerting when he went to a back 3 here. West Ham saved their skin by appointing Moyes and he just did what Moyes does and pushed out a deep sitting bloc with a counter attack threat. My fear for this season is that this squad does not have that as an option, nor am I sure that I want that as the long term direction of travel.

For a club like ours that's the direction we need to go in Stan and whilst it's not ideal on the eye it doesnt need to be as dour as things were under Pulis.

We can play fantastic, open football in the Championship and be successful doing that but once in the PL it isnt going to work because we're taking on better teams with better players pound for pound.

I think we need to understand where we are as a club and accept it. Unless we can attract a new owner prepared to invest huge sums of money we are not going to be able to compete in the PL playing open football.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on November 07, 2020, 01:40:47 PM
This was the biggest criticism of his time at West Ham, too many of the same midfielders.

The board have been far from perfect this window but Bilic cannot be ignored in this as the run of about 7 wins in 29 games begins to get worrying.

7 wins in 22 was worrying but most seemed to ignore it. With the step up if we had started very well that may have been 9 or 10 wins in 29 but unless we somehow found another wave to sail on that was never going to happen. We were always likely to be here with a similar record to the one we now have. 

The form over this season on its own is not the problem, neither is the Fulham game. It’s Bilic’s Complete inability over a longer spell to drill a team. Whenever a lesser side does well, even the ones that play football, they are normally organised and everyone knows their role.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dudleylad on November 07, 2020, 02:12:27 PM
I work with alot of Wolves supporters and whilst I know it can be argued they brought better players, Nuno revert to a more conservative style when they got promoted.

Some complained but he was proven right. As Atomic says being organised does not automatically mean applying it in a way that Pulis does.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on November 07, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
We already know what true success in this division looks like, it happened under Hodgson. We never recovered from losing him and Ashworth, but even back then there were some serious frustrations with how we played and the personnel he used. 'Twas ever thus.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 07, 2020, 02:42:38 PM

...as a 10 we aren't going to get much defensively from Pereira (it's not what he's on the pitch for nor is it a lack of work rate.) the double pivot behind him really has to cover a lot of ground, particularly if the full backs push on in support of the wingers. We have two out and out playmakers in Krovinvic and Sawyers and moving Pereira into the 10 pretty much takes them out of the picture.

The default double pivot is Gallagher and Livermore. I would give Gallagher more license to get forward and use Livermore as the defensive anchor.

Defensively we are sitting deep if we have Ivanovic on the pitch. The defensive line has to take it's lead from it's slowest member. Ajayi might be quick and that speed and mobility is useful to have but in terms of holding a high defensive line it is slowest member of the back 4 that dictates that position not the quickest.

If we are sitting deep the question then becomes how do we transition the ball forward? If as is inevitable we start to have to go long having Pereira as the 10 particularly as Grant is absolutely not a traditional target man is not particularly helpful.


I think we need to use wing play - maybe starting with Robinson and even Grant waiting on each wings and one of them moving into the centre if the ball is cleared to the other wing..  That requires accurate passing from defence and overlapping full backs.  You don't have to stay stuck where you line up for start of play.

I agree that there is atm no replacement for defensive duties than Livermore.  I'm not convinced about Diangana in the Prem.  Krov has been far more effective this season. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 09, 2020, 01:33:56 AM
I wondered after today is it time to try Grant and Robinson together more? Periera in the 10 when available again...

Either back 4 with 3 in front or stick with the 5. This way we get best out of periera and Robinson.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 09, 2020, 08:40:14 AM
I wondered after today is it time to try Grant and Robinson together more? Periera in the 10 when available again...

Either back 4 with 3 in front or stick with the 5. This way we get best out of periera and Robinson.

Pereira should be on the bench. Bring him on with 20 or so minutes to go if we need to open the game up.

We need organisation and solidity first. There was much more of that yesterday without Pereira and Diangana and it's not as if we didnt carry a threat either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 09, 2020, 10:25:53 AM
A cautionary tale from Witton, I read an interesting article about Villa's recruitment in the summer they got relegated under "tactics" Tim Sherwood. While they recruited many decent players who have gone on to have good careers elsewhere it was a bit of a train wreck of a season. The most memorable line in the article was a quote from an analyst who said "Going into the season we were told to recruit for a back 3, in the end Tim did not use that system"  Bare this in mind.

If you are one of the lesser lights in a league one of the ways in which you can overcome a financial disadvantage is to have a clear pattern of play recruit to it get a clear starting XI and play that starting XI whenever possible. The benefits seem obvious players are in positions they are comfortable with and are playing to their strengths and you have a coherent unit which is better than the sum of it's parts

We are 8 games in we have 4 different starting formations. We have played with a back 3 four times and a back 4 four times although if you look at the heat maps for the back 3 games they might be better described as back fives.

We don't have a clear pattern of play. Some of the variants particularly yesterday's put our two most creative players into the stands and we are two tweaked hamstrings from not being able to play the 5-3-2 in any event so even if it was effective we are never too far away from having abandon it due to injury.

If Bilic wanted to go to 5-3-2 you don't buy Diangana and you probably sell Pereira to raise funds for some different players.  Although 5-3-2 is probably the absolute worst use of our resources there are fundamental issues with the squad almost regardless of how we set up.

The performance was better against Spurs but fundamentally we are still casting around for a clear sense of direction.   

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Singhwba on November 09, 2020, 10:35:46 AM
4 3 1 2 for me.
Gets the 3 in midfield. Pereira. Then Robinson and Grant up front. Id also play Button in goal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 09, 2020, 10:53:16 AM
4 3 1 2 for me.
Gets the 3 in midfield. Pereira. Then Robinson and Grant up front. Id also play Button in goal.

It's just a shame we don't have an outstanding right wing back, otherwise it would be a no brainer
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 09, 2020, 11:04:49 AM
Button plus 10 should be the starting point.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on November 09, 2020, 11:35:11 AM
4 3 1 2 for me.
Gets the 3 in midfield. Pereira. Then Robinson and Grant up front. Id also play Button in goal.

He literally can't be seen to do this long term due to Diangana transfer fee.

4-3-3 still the way forward for me with Livermore out of the team.

If we stick with the back 5, Grady will have to play in place of Townsend. Again I'd have Pereira for Livermore in yesterday's team.

Button must be given a chance in goal prior to a new keeper in January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 09, 2020, 12:40:02 PM
There should no real surprise that we are trying to find the right formation and combination at this point in the season.  Of the current 15 only Ivanovic, Livermore, Gibbs and Phillips have significant experience at this level.  It has been a sink or swim introduction to the top level. 

Swiming

At the moment Gallagher looks like the real deal if still developing, Kroc has shown glimpses that he can work well alongside him.   Semi has confirmed he is the most likely to step up and i've also been impressed with O'shea however both have also struggled in periods and are learning on the job. Robinson has been the pick of the front players but we need more goal threat from him to stay up.

Sinking

Pez and Grady, our two main creative outlets from last year have struggled with the pace and physicality of the division.  Both need to grow and adapt their games.  The same for Sawyers who looks a yard behind at this level. What Pez and Grady do still have is undoubted potential to come good.  Many people have SJ as one of our players of season so far and some of his shot stopping has admittedly been world class but still has no command of his area and does not give any confidence to his back four. 

Treading Water

Think Townsend and Furlong are performing as well as can be expected. Grant will score goals but needs to get match fit and sharp quick if we are to have a chance.  All we could really hope with Ivan was that his legs hadn't gone and so far seems good for one more season as leader and organiser.  Livermore.....the Captain does what he does but don't think we can move on as a team in till he drops out of first 11.  I can't put Phillips in my sink category as I thought he sunk over a year ago, it might be his experience that Slav wants on the bench?   Bartley again is Bartley, can look a quality CB even at this level but a mistake always a waiting.

There will be shuffling a plenty trying to find the best system for those players and the preferred formation may depend on some of those players finding their game for this level. 

Wilder showed last year what can be done when you have a system and can bring in players to carry out specific roles within that system.   We have seen this year what happens when PL teams take your threat more seriously and work about how to play against you.   Once the tactical advantage is negated it comes down to player quality again.

FWIW regardless of formation I think the key is finding a way to get Pez in the top half of the pitch and impacting on the game.  I'm happy with Grady as an impact sub and his time may still come.



 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 09, 2020, 12:43:06 PM
Grant does too. Sorry to be a pedant.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 09, 2020, 12:47:42 PM
Grant does too. Sorry to be a pedant.

Yep I was aware and have amended my post to make mire sense. Ta  :)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 09, 2020, 01:38:28 PM
You can't have a £12m impact substitute you can't have players that counterfeit each  other (Robinson/Grant Sawyers/Krovinovic and Diangana/Pereira)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on November 09, 2020, 02:12:07 PM

If you are one of the lesser lights in a league one of the ways in which you can overcome a financial disadvantage is to have a clear pattern of play recruit to it get a clear starting XI and play that starting XI whenever possible. The benefits seem obvious players are in positions they are comfortable with and are playing to their strengths and you have a coherent unit which is better than the sum of it's parts


The whole post from Standaman was excellent but the quote above is particularly important. It is why I was a little surprised with our recruitment in the summer. We started excellently with the 4231 last year but whilst we were doing well, it was clear to some that to play a deep lying playmaker like Sawyers, we needed a true, mobile, ball winning midfielder alongside him. It was also obvious that Robson-Kanu could be improved upon and then obviously there were concerns about the keeper. Finally, we lost Ferguson and whilst O'Shea did well last season, it was clear that Furlong didn't suit as a defensive full back which Bilic seemingly preferred from one of the two full back positions and obviously Townsend and Gibbs are not that type of full back either.

We didn't really look to address those issues last January and then the second half of the season we flip flopped between a 4231 and a 433. Our better performances in a 433 consisted of inverted wide players with one (Pereira) more of a playmaker and one a more direct runner in behind (Robinson) with a target man (Robson-Kanu) up top. Again this summer we didn't recruit to that blueprint either, especially not when Diangana was signed.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 09, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
You can't have a £12m impact substitute you can't have players that counterfeit each  other (Robinson/Grant Sawyers/Krovinovic and Diangana/Pereira)

We had a £15 million player not even making the bench last year so an improvement!   At this level €12m is no guarantee of success.  I'm happy to give him time in the PL knowing he can rip up the Champ.   I'm afraid that's where my head is with one eye on the next year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 09, 2020, 08:10:58 PM
You can't have a £12m impact substitute you can't have players that counterfeit each  other (Robinson/Grant Sawyers/Krovinovic and Diangana/Pereira)

its not often I question your thinking Stan, but on this one I have to.
Surely fee paid doesn't equal place in the selection stakes. If a very expensive player turns out to be a very expensive crock of brown stuff, you don't play him. Embarrassing yes, but sometimes you have to admit to errors and take the consequences.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on November 09, 2020, 09:28:55 PM
its not often I question your thinking Stan, but on this one I have to.
Surely fee paid doesn't equal place in the selection stakes. If a very expensive player turns out to be a very expensive crock of brown stuff, you don't play him. Embarrassing yes, but sometimes you have to admit to errors and take the consequences.
Unless you have had that player for twelve months and deliberately stated that you the head coach...wanted him in.
That puts Grady in the position of must start.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Laguna Baggie on November 09, 2020, 10:18:46 PM
This whole discussion brings a tear to my eye when I look at my Baggies calendar and see Willie Johnston as Mr November.......
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on November 09, 2020, 11:34:13 PM
I like to stick to the 532 / 352 , its not ideal I know but does cover a few of our weak areas for now . If we play Utd and put on another decent show I'd play the same again against the Blades.
With do many players 'learning on the job 'I think sticking to one system for a while would help.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 09, 2020, 11:43:01 PM
I like to stick to the 532 / 352 , its not ideal I know but does cover a few of our weak areas for now . If we play Utd and put on another decent show I'd play the same again against the Blades.
With do many players 'learning on the job 'I think sticking to one system for a while would help.

I would stick to it as well. A club in our position has to be solid and organised and we looked the part yesterday and we cant keep changing systems.

The plus here is it gives us chance to get two strikers on the pitch. We have a lack of goals and Grant and Robinson are our most likely source. It also means potentially we can have Pereira and Diangana coming off the bench late on if we need to open the game up. Those two against tiring defenders are a lot more beneficial than the likes of Phillips and Sawyers especially when Pereira is less likely to be picked up by our opponents.

We are a couple of injuries away from problems with this system admittedly. That is a squad deficiency because Bilic never intended to play this way he was forced into it really and it goes against his philosophy which makes me question how long he will persevere with it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on November 09, 2020, 11:49:30 PM
I would stick to it as well. A club in our position has to be solid and organised and we looked the part yesterday and we cant keep changing systems.

The plus here is it gives us chance to get two strikers on the pitch. We have a lack of goals and Grant and Robinson are our most likely source. It also means potentially we can have Pereira and Diangana coming off the bench late on if we need to open the game up. Those two against tiring defenders are a lot more beneficial than the likes of Phillips and Sawyers especially when Pereira is less likely to be picked up by our opponents.

We are a couple of injuries away from problems with this system admittedly. That is a squad deficiency because Bilic never intended to play this way he was forced into it really and it goes against his philosophy which makes me question how long he will persevere with it.
Id switch Pereira for Krov in it outfield player wise , I just feel we need to settle and steady up a bit .
I'm convinced wins will come in it but suspect by Sheff Utd we'll be trying something else that won't work.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 10, 2020, 09:39:47 AM
To clarify what I meant when I said you can't spend big money (wages and fees) on players and not play them. I do not mean they play regardless of form, fitness or tactical fit. However not playing them is a measure of inefficiency and that is a relative measure.

It does not matter in the grand scheme the Premier League finance that the fee is modest the fact that for the club it is a big chunk of the playing budget and it is sitting on the side lines. The smaller the relative budget the more troubling it is. The Zohore transfer was annoying but in the Championship didn't impact too much in part because we were one of the richer clubs and can afford to waste resources. In the Premier League with one of the smaller budgets we simply can't waste resources which is why the Burke transfer for instance was such a disaster.

This brings me onto why am so annoyed by the Diangana transfer and Bilic's sanctioning of it. If the plan is 3-5-2 or any other 3 at the back variant then we don't need wingers at all unless they can play as wing backs. Bear in mind we came out of the blocks with a back 3 and played it at least 50% of the time so it must have been in our Head Coach's mind to do so.

It get's worse though. We started last season with a 4-2-3-1 with Diangana wide left Pereira central and Phillips wide right. Because of injury and loss of form we switched to a 4-3-3 with Pereira wide right and from January Robinson and Grosicki as inverted wingers wide left. This also facilitated a shuffle around in the midfield to accomodate Krovinovic in a double 8 with Livermore and Sawyers playing a deep playmaking role in the 6.

Diangana does not fit in a 4-3-3 with Pereira or for that matter a 3-4-3. However do the signings of Robinson and Krovinovic make sense if you aren't playing a 4-3-3? Does the signing of Robinson make sense with Grant almost regardless  of formation if the plan was to sign Robinson as a striker as opposed to a wide forward.

We had the players in the building we saw the issues or we should have. Not playing good and expensive (for us) players because of a lack of foresight and maybe the Head Coach's emotional commitment to a group of players is vexing and one of the reasons why we will go down.

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 10, 2020, 10:01:41 AM
However not playing them is a measure of inefficiency and that is a relative measure.  I cannot argue with this, its just true.
I am not going to comment on the merits of different formations and the fit of our players to those formations, I'm not a football professional and I don't feel competent to answer how (for example) Periera, Diangana & Krov can play in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 or whatever.

My simplistic view is whether we had prior sight or not, whether SB agitated for a signing or not, if the player is not performing he cannot play to the detriment of the club, if this is embarrassing or difficult to swallow - TOUGH!

BTW, this is why I am so freaking annoyed about Matt Phillips keep getting on the pitch, he contributes nothing in fact I would argue he detracts,  so why do it, again and again! 

I don't know (or care) if SB is being stubborn / stupid / overly loyal or he's embarrassed but he MUST sacrifice some of the apparently sacred cows.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 10, 2020, 10:10:11 AM
I'd stick with the same for the United match. It feels strange leaving our most talented player Pereira out but it's just a better balance in the middle three when Krov plays as he's more of a genuine attack minded midfielder and less of a No 10.
We need the same work ethic and hopefully stick one or two chances away.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 10, 2020, 11:54:00 AM
Utd will probably persevere with their diamond midfield so I agree with Adder, it probably is fine to stick to the same shape as Vs Spurs. I noted that our pass map/average positions had Livermore deep in front of the back three, with the wing backs and Krov and Gallagher almost playing as a flat 4. If we stick with this, we'd end up with a nice 4 v 3 at the back (back three plus Livermore Vs two strikers plus Fernandes), our wing backs pick up theirs, and we give up a numerical advantage to their defensive midfield or centre backs, depending on how we press. It's not novel or going to cause Utd any new headaches but it's sensible enough.

On a broader note, I thought at the time the signing of Diangana smacked of convenience and the playing becoming available, rather than a larger transfer strategy. I listened to a good podcast from Zonal Marking about teams that get promoted, and by and large survival in your first season boils down to two things:

Be hard to score against
Have a way to score goals

I did think "well duh", but it's noticeable that we don't have a specific way of scoring goals (other than a few corner routines), and we are leaky at the back.

All the more damning is that we are the only team in the bottom three to be ahead of our Expected Goals for this season. That is, we've scored more goals than we should have. The other four teams around us are all lagging, indicating that perhaps with a change of fortune they will start to get a few more goals. These things often have a habit of regressing towards the mean.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 22, 2020, 11:32:37 AM
Bilic now seems to have settled for 3 at the back.

Quite how he configures the team in front of it is in a state of flux. 3-5-2 seems to be the preferred option. Yesterday saw both Pereira and Diangana play centrally ahead of Gallagher and Sawyers in a sort of 3-4-2-1 although Diangana generally played ahead of Pereira but not really alongside of Grant.  Whether this was by design or because of the natural inclinations of the player is difficult to tell.

The jury is still out as to whether we can get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch at the same time in a coherent and balanced set up. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on November 22, 2020, 01:23:37 PM
Bilic now seems to have settled for 3 at the back.

Spurs and Man Utd are totally different propositions to Sheff Utd and Palace and even yesterday we ended the match with a back four. The most likely change is from a 5-4-1 to a 3-4-3.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on December 16, 2020, 09:30:23 PM
v Man City I think we have hit on the correct template for the rest of the season.

We are far better operating with a 4-5-1 rather than 5-4-1.  The reason is that neither Sawyers or Livermore are mobile enough to play in a central 2.  For now, we need them both in there closing the opposition down and breaking up play before danger present itself on the edge of the area.  With 5 at the back the opposition were slicing through our laboured midfield and shooting on sight.

Other points are we look so much better without the slow Ivanovic and we must only play 1 striker.

I expect SA to prioritise a central midfielder with energy in January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: California Dreaming on December 16, 2020, 09:55:31 PM
8 big blokes behind the ball. Hoof it up to the big bloke up front and hope it bounces off him in the direction of the fast little bloke alongside him. Repeat ad nauseam.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 16, 2020, 10:35:06 PM
v Man City I think we have hit on the correct template for the rest of the season.

We are far better operating with a 4-5-1 rather than 5-4-1.  The reason is that neither Sawyers or Livermore are mobile enough to play in a central 2. For now, we need them both in there closing the opposition down and breaking up play before danger present itself on the edge of the area.  With 5 at the back the opposition were slicing through our laboured midfield and shooting on sight.

Other points are we look so much better without the slow Ivanovic and we must only play 1 striker.

I expect SA to prioritise a central midfielder with energy in January.
If you are going 4-5-1 it still depends on the personnel in that formation. If Pereira is the advanced central member of that 5 then effectively it's still a central 2 as he is an attacking No. 10 not a genuine central midfielder. Last night we had Gallagher, Livermore/Krov, Sawyers who are all genuine midfielders.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on December 29, 2020, 07:39:31 PM
What do we do then?! For me, 4231 or 451 is the formation with this team.

That 11

Johnstone, O'Shea, Ajayi, Ivanovic, Gibbs
Gallagher, Krovinovic
Robinson, Pereira, Grosicki
Austin

To be honest, the only shoe-ins are Johnstone, O'Shea, Gibbs, Gallagher and Pereira. I really don't know who else we play
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on December 29, 2020, 08:27:11 PM
What do we do then?! For me, 4231 or 451 is the formation with this team.

That 11

Johnstone, O'Shea, Ajayi, Ivanovic, Gibbs
Gallagher, Krovinovic
Robinson, Pereira, Grosicki
Austin

To be honest, the only shoe-ins are Johnstone, O'Shea, Gibbs, Gallagher and Pereira. I really don't know who else we play

Might need a rethink gibbs injured. We desperately need a left back. Austin legs are gone he will take his wage until he goes on free
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 29, 2020, 08:32:40 PM
I hoped Austin was off to MLS in Jan. Hopefully he does go.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Maresca Was A Baggie on December 29, 2020, 08:38:02 PM
Just cut and pasted this from the E & S match report


Leeds lined up in a 4-14-1 system

Explains why we lost when up against 19 players 😂
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on December 29, 2020, 09:21:57 PM
Might need a rethink gibbs injured.
How did it happen? I read he got "hit by a ball" in the warm up, which sounds ludicrous.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 29, 2020, 09:25:51 PM
How did it happen? I read he got "hit by a ball" in the warm up, which sounds ludicrous.
That's what they said on commentary at first, then post game Allardyce said he 'felt his thigh' in the warm-up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on December 29, 2020, 09:39:12 PM
Ta.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on December 29, 2020, 09:42:08 PM
That's what they said on commentary at first, then post game Allardyce said he 'felt his thigh' in the warm-up.
I wouldn’t want to play if Big Sam felt my thigh!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: California Dreaming on December 29, 2020, 09:53:11 PM
8 big blokes behind the ball. Hoof it up to the big bloke up front and hope it bounces off him in the direction of the fast little bloke alongside him. Repeat ad nauseam.
I was wrong. 10 blokes behind the ball and hoof it up to the opposition.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on December 30, 2020, 12:14:29 AM
                              A keeper.         (possibly sell Johnstone while someone is daft enough)
               Kipre.         Semi.     O’Shea
Furlong.                                             Grosiki
     
           Harper.      Gallagher.    Krovinovic

                 Pererira.   
                             Robinson


This is what I think we should be playing, but in January I’d like us to get in an absolute backside in CDM (nzonzi) , and then 2 forwards (Shane long and Troy Deeney) and then revert to a 4-4-2
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TAFKATMNo1Fan on December 30, 2020, 12:21:06 AM
Shane long 27 goals in 177 games :-X
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on December 30, 2020, 08:38:39 AM
Shane long 27 goals in 177 games :-X

His work rate occupies opposition defenders constantly, his efforts enable others in the team to capitalise....there are loads of strikers whose scoring record doesn’t look great, but what they do is appreciated by their team/manager.
Realistic signing and no central defender wants to play against a Long/Deeney combination .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 30, 2020, 09:34:59 AM
If we were going to set up with 3 at the back it is debatable as to whether we should have signed the players we did in the summer although generally they at least fitted in with Bilic's general footballing philosophy e.g. Possession orientated working the ball through the pitch etc..

Personally I would have sacked him for the back 3 you can't adopt a tactical set up that craters a third of your squad particularly having insisted on players that really don't fit the set up you are adopting.   

However bringing in a reductive hoofball (no not as bad as Pulis) merchant leaves us with a squad geared toward possession football playing reductive hoofball. That pretty much craters the whole squad except the Pulis era veterans who it has taken two seasons and two coaches to wean off that approach.

We are going to fix this with four signings in January and I can't write posts with drug references (which is fair enough) but I struggle for any other explanation. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on December 30, 2020, 12:18:47 PM
What do we do then?! For me, 4231 or 451 is the formation with this team.

That 11

Johnstone, O'Shea, Ajayi, Ivanovic, Gibbs
Gallagher, Krovinovic
Robinson, Pereira, Grosicki
Austin

To be honest, the only shoe-ins are Johnstone, O'Shea, Gibbs, Gallagher and Pereira. I really don't know who else we play
I'm almost with you on this as I think Diangana and Grant both deserve some time on the bench. We have a problem at left-back now of course and I don't think Krovinovic would be suited to a defensive midfield role as he doesn't really tackle. I suppose the $64000 question is whether or not Allardyce can get something out of Austin that Bilic was increasingly unable to....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on December 30, 2020, 01:33:00 PM
I think with the players we have right now, 3 at the back is our best option.

Our summer recruitment is at odds with that but seeing how certain players have and havent stepped up to this league, i think the wing backs is our best option.

We are poor at the back, Big Sam will make us better organised in time i have no doubt but upto now we have looked better at the 5-3-2, we have had some shockers, ie - Palace but also a number of games where we have only conceded 1 or 0 and at least being in the game (the Villa game i just class as a write off)

Furlong is ok at best as a defender (again he should get better at that with Sam) but he adds something going forward, i would use Diangana on the other side, you cant plan anything with Gibbs as he is made of glass and going into the last six months of his contract and him being unemployed in June, i dont see him risking himself to much.

We have 5 centre backs - Ivanovic, Bartley, O Shea, Ajayi and Kipre, realistically they will all be with us for the rest of the season so we have to utilise them, Kipre may go on loan but unless we sell one of the others i dont see us bringing in another centre back as will be overloaded.

Gallagher is a definite in midfield and its who you pick with him, we know with  Big Sam the ball goes direct so i imagine a couple of powerhouses in there will come in, with Pereria, Grant and Robinson competing for a place behind a big powerful striker who we bring in.

As i said elsewhere, Sam plays a certain way and likes a certain type of player, last night proved how shambolic we can be and didnt tighten up til we went 3 at the back and the game was over, i think that will be the benchmark for now unless Grosicki or Edwards are given a chance on the wing and have great games and make him think about wingers again.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on January 02, 2021, 03:30:49 PM
Have just been watching first half Borussia Moenchengladbach in the Bundesliga, and have to say, they are playing just as I'd like Albion to play. They have a succession of runners bombing through, sometimes left side, sometimes right side, sometimes through the middle being picked out by very accurate 25 yard through passes.

Firstly you need players who can deliver accurate 25 yard through passes? Has Albion those players?  Secondly, you need to make those runs forward. Something I very rarely see with us.  Instead we have players just standing waiting for a pass up the pitch. Very much easier to mark.  Why are we not making those runs forward? Are they being told not to? Or do they just not have the skillset?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 02, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
Have just been watching first half Borussia Moenchengladbach in the Bundesliga, and have to say, they are playing just as I'd like Albion to play. They have a succession of runners bombing through, sometimes left side, sometimes right side, sometimes through the middle being picked out by very accurate 25 yard through passes.

Firstly you need players who can deliver accurate 25 yard through passes? Has Albion those players?  Secondly, you need to make those runs forward. Something I very rarely see with us.  Instead we have players just standing waiting for a pass up the pitch. Very much easier to mark.  Why are we not making those runs forward? Are they being told not to? Or do they just not have the skillset?

BM haven't won a game since late November. Their game today is against relegation strugglers I believe and is still goalless? We couldn't reasonably expect to play that way against most teams in this division and not sure it's a great system anyway based on their results.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on January 02, 2021, 04:32:48 PM
BM haven't won a game since late November. Their game today is against relegation strugglers I believe and is still goalless? We couldn't reasonably expect to play that way against most teams in this division and not sure it's a great system anyway based on their results.
We couldn't play that way because we don't have players who are capable/or are allowed to make runs forward, and we don't have players who have the vision to hit accurate long through passes. So we just elect to get boxed in in our own half.

As an aside, Gladbach should have won by alot more than 1-0 today given they must have created 12-15 good chances. But they play much the same tactics against bottom sides as against Real Madrid in the Champions League.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on January 02, 2021, 04:50:18 PM
We couldn't play that way because we don't have players who are capable/or are allowed to make runs forward, and we don't have players who have the vision to hit accurate long through passes. So we just elect to get boxed in in our own half.

Any semblance of having a plan to attack the opposition goal disappeared against Villa and Leeds. Banished. The Tony Pulis tactics haven't helped us at the back either so it's a lose-lose so far from the managerial change.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 10, 2021, 10:38:29 PM
Austin gone. Bond going. Talk of Ivanovic contract termination. How many more could we get rid of?

Besides Johnstone Furlong Ajayi oshea Townsend periera diangana Robinson  I'm not overly bothered if any of the rest of them go
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 10, 2021, 10:48:26 PM
Austin gone. Bond going. Talk of Ivanovic contract termination. How many more could we get rid of?

Besides Johnstone Furlong Ajayi oshea Townsend periera diangana Robinson  I'm not overly bothered if any of the rest of them go

Keeping my eye on Johnstone tbh. Less than 2 years left, and has somehow got people believing he's half decent.

Ramsdale went for £18 million. If Big Sam wants a kitty then....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 10, 2021, 11:01:06 PM
Keeping my eye on Johnstone tbh. Less than 2 years left, and has somehow got people believing he's half decent.

Ramsdale went for £18 million. If Big Sam wants a kitty then....

Yep, i'd wrote that 6-7m off but here we and we could profit heavily from him
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on January 10, 2021, 11:02:48 PM
Keeping my eye on Johnstone tbh. Less than 2 years left, and has somehow got people believing he's half decent.

Ramsdale went for £18 million. If Big Sam wants a kitty then....

He is half decent. I can only imagine the stick he would have taken on here had he let the first Blackpool goal in yesterday. Should definitely have been saved.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 10, 2021, 11:05:50 PM
Keeping my eye on Johnstone tbh. Less than 2 years left, and has somehow got people believing he's half decent.

Ramsdale went for £18 million. If Big Sam wants a kitty then....

He should get a cat from the local animal rescue
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on January 16, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
Well we're certainly getting through some systems this season. 4-4-2 at the Custard bowl with Pereira joining Robinson up front.

Reverted to a five at the back late on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 30, 2021, 08:46:32 PM
As it stands assuming we sign the Turkish lad:

                 Keeper
Oshea ajayi bartley Townsend
                   Okay
Snodgrass Gallagher Robinson
                  Periera
                  Mbaye

If we could get a right back or a left back with the last domestic loan the full backs would be reevaluated. Periera needs to play through the middle. No time for Livermore or Gibbs. 3 at back awful
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on January 30, 2021, 08:52:37 PM
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Bartley Townsend
Yokuslu Livermore Gallagher
Pereira Diagne Grant

Need a right back and a centre mid.

Still don’t think we’ll stay up but would be nice to get to 30 points and make the season a bit less embarrassing  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on January 30, 2021, 08:58:53 PM
Johnstone
O’Shea Ajayi Bartley Townsend
Yokuslu Livermore Gallagher
Pereira Diagne Grant

Need a right back and a centre mid.

Still don’t think we’ll stay up but would be nice to get to 30 points and make the season a bit less embarrassing  ;D

Jesus wept you've still picked Livermore  :-\
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on January 30, 2021, 09:25:39 PM
It scares me that Livermore still gets in the team of a fan. Maybe he'll somehow creep into the manager's 11.

Also Pereira on the right of a 3...this is a no no. His best performances have come in the number 10 role.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 31, 2021, 09:25:21 AM
My guess is when the window closes Allardyce will deploy a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-1-1. For what it's worth I don't think we will see a back 3 again.

Do not be surprised to see Livermore and Yokuslu as the double pivot. I will not prejudge the other horrors I let them unfold as as time goes by.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on January 31, 2021, 11:19:35 AM
It scares me that Livermore still gets in the team of a fan.
To be fair, who do you think could play in his place that's currently on our books? The only name that comes to my mind is Field, and successive managers have refused to play him. If I were Sam I'd be packing my bags this summer (I think I'm right in saying his contract is up this year, but could be wrong).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 31, 2021, 11:29:07 AM

Do not be surprised to see Livermore and Yokuslu as the double pivot. I will not prejudge the other horrors I let them unfold as as time goes by.

I can see this too: he doesn't seem to trust Gallagher in there, Sawyers is ill-suited when not being in a possession based side and Field is unlikely to come in the from the cold.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on January 31, 2021, 11:29:46 AM
To be fair, who do you think could play in his place that's currently on our books? The only name that comes to my mind is Field, and successive managers have refused to play him. If I were Sam I'd be packing my bags this summer (I think I'm right in saying his contract is up this year, but could be wrong).

His contract is up in 2022
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Astle1968 on February 01, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
So if we get AMN and Yokuslu over the line how do we line up

Our best 11 in terms of talent on the pitch I'd say

                        Johnstone
Furlong/O'shea     Ajayi    Bartley     Gibbs
         AMN         Yokuslu     Gallagher/Snodgrass
       Pereira       Diagne      Diangana

I'd like to see Pereira more centrally ideally, so maybe put him in the MF in a slightly advanced role for CG/RS and then Snodgrass and Diangana out wide

Think AMN would be a great signing for us and I'm amazed it looks like we could get the deal done, but assuming Yokuslu signs I'd probably rather had seen a CB in, or alternatively return Gallagher and go for someone like Jones at CB. Seems a waste potentially having someone as good as Gallagher on the bench, when you still have that back 4 playing week in week out.

Still don't think we have a chance of staying up, but with that 11 plus a couple of proper options available off the bench, and considering Allardyce's main ability is being able to get teams to defend then even with a weak back I'd expect to be getting around 1 point a game from now to the end of the season. Not enough to keep us up from where we are, but if everyone started on 0 points from today I'd expect to us to be around 18th-16th
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 04:50:05 PM
Assuming it goes through as planned today.

Johnstone

OShea
Ajayi
Bartley
Gibbs

YokuÅŸlu

Maitland-Niles
Gallagher
Snodgrass

Pereira

Diagne
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on February 01, 2021, 04:54:23 PM
Like the look of that team Jacko, only change would be Townsend for Gibbs for me but other than that, looks our best team i think!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 01, 2021, 04:55:36 PM
AMN playing on the wing in that 3? Can he do that? I dont know.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 05:02:25 PM
AMN playing on the wing in that 3? Can he do that? I dont know.

No tucked in is my vision of the team. It's possible Gallagher gets binned for Grant/Robinson/Grady with Snodgrass on the right allowing AMN to play central...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 01, 2021, 05:06:38 PM
No tucked in is my vision of the team. It's possible Gallagher gets binned for Grant/Robinson/Grady with Snodgrass on the right allowing AMN to play central...

Okay, i had no idea if he could play out wide or not. I read it that he was CM


I was thinking more along the lines

                     SJ

O Shea, Bartley Ajayi Townsend

                Yokuslu   
                 
Snodgrass      AMN            Diangana  ( will be more effective IMO when allowed to attack with cover behind him)
                 Pereira 

                 Diagne

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 01, 2021, 05:14:26 PM
So what we are saying is Allardyce has gone out and signed 3 midfielders and is putting the finishing touches to a 4th in Musa....

Interesting formation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 05:19:35 PM
So what we are saying is Allardyce has gone out and signed 3 midfielders and is putting the finishing touches to a 4th in Musa....

Interesting formation.

Crucially all different types including 2 who can legitimately be described as defensive/central midfielders.

4-4-1-1 or it's minor variants was always going to be the way we played under BS.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on February 01, 2021, 05:48:08 PM
I reckon AVM will be played right back personally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 01, 2021, 06:02:58 PM
I reckon AVM will be played right back personally.

I think is only here in part because he wants to play central midfield rather than RB.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on February 01, 2021, 06:09:25 PM
I think is only here in part because he wants to play central midfield rather than RB.

I have no doubt he’s been told he will get a chance in midfield and that might be why he’s come, but I still think we will see him at right back more often than we see him in midfield.

I could be wrong but it’s just a hunch.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2021, 06:41:36 PM
What are the rules on loan signings in a match day squad?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 01, 2021, 06:42:48 PM
What are the rules on loan signings in a match day squad?

Max 5 I think.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on February 01, 2021, 10:59:58 PM
Although it doesn't look like we'll sign a defender (if you ignore Maitland-Niles, who seems to have chosen us on the basis that we'll play him in central midfield), the impressive signings of Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles will definitely improve us defensively, as the defence will finally have some cover in front of it that's worthy of the name. At 6'3", Yokuslu should be useful when it comes to set pieces too.

We still need to win tomorrow though....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tlms-p23 on February 01, 2021, 11:05:31 PM
So what does the middle look like?

If 4-3-3:

     Yokuslu

AMN     Gallagher/Snodgrass

If 4231:

       Yokuslu       AMN

Snodgrass    Pereira    Grady/Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 11:22:39 PM
Final 27 man squad at least until January
     
                                                        GK
                                              Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                              Button  (31, 2022)
                                               Bond (27, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
       RB                                   CB                          CB                               LB
  O'Shea* (20, 2023)         Ajayi (26,2023)           Hegazi  ( 28, 2022)     Gibbs (30 2021)
  Furlong (24, 2023)          Bartley (28, 2021)       Kipre     (23, 2024)     Townsend (27, 2021)
  Peltier (36, 2021)           Ivanovic (36,2021)                                                           

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,2021)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers (28,2022)            Field            (22, 2022)
                                  Harper *(19,2022)            Krovinovic    (25,2021)               
                                                                                   
   7                                                           10                                     11
Phillips (29 ,2022)                       Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)
Edwards  (21, 2021)
Robinson, (25, 2025)   
                         
                                                               CF   
                                                   Grant (23, 2026)
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)
                                                      Austin (30,2021)

Whatever anybody thinks of Grosicki it seems very obvious that he was not going to be played by Bilic nor for that matter was Zohore. At some point they come into the reckoning but not without an injury crisis of near biblical proportions.

Overall I remain a little bit uncomfortable as to how the team shape will evolve. Regardless of what I think of each player's  individual quality I don't have an XI that looks entirely right as a unit.  I suspect a lot hinges on what Gallagher brings to the party in Central Midfield, however at the end of the window I want to see an obvious first XI which looks comfortable in the Head Coach's preferred set up. I don't see it.     
 
   
                                                     

Come on Stan let's have the update 👏
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2021, 11:28:58 PM
We haven’t improved our defence but the good news is with our new additions we should be able to alleviate some of the pressures on them. We were too easy to play through and hopefully that will now end. With Diange we have someone who should be able to retain possession which will ease the pressures on us defensively as it will prevent the ball from constantly coming back at us.

It will hopefully mean that we do not see the likes of Livermore and Sawyers this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionBest on February 01, 2021, 11:32:40 PM
We haven’t improved our defence but the good news is with our new additions we should be able to alleviate some of the pressures on them. We were too easy to play through and hopefully that will now end. With Diange we have someone who should be able to retain possession which will ease the pressures on us defensively as it will prevent the ball from constantly coming back at us.

It will hopefully mean that we do not see the likes of Livermore and Sawyers this season.

Good points.
I think that's what the additions will do - make us much better with the ball and able to hold possession better in the opposition's half and thus taking a lot of pressure off the beleaguered defence.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 01, 2021, 11:33:17 PM
Gallagher, Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles, Sawyers, Livermore, Edwards, Philips, Pereira, Grosicki, Snodgrass, Grant, Robinson and It looks like Musa as well.

13 midfielders in one squad..........

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 11:35:23 PM
Gallagher, Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles, Sawyers, Livermore, Edwards, Philips, Pereira, Grosicki, Snodgrass, Grant, Robinson and It looks like Musa as well.

13 midfielders in one squad..........

Wide players/forwards, also you forgot Diangana.

Also we've added 3 and got rid of 3 (Harper, Field and Krovinovic) so not sure where this post was in October...  ::)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KingKoren on February 01, 2021, 11:38:39 PM
We haven’t improved our defence but the good news is with our new additions we should be able to alleviate some of the pressures on them. We were too easy to play through and hopefully that will now end. With Diange we have someone who should be able to retain possession which will ease the pressures on us defensively as it will prevent the ball from constantly coming back at us.

It will hopefully mean that we do not see the likes of Livermore and Sawyers this season.

I agree with this however our defence personnel wise is so bad. I think it's the only thing preventing us from being very competitive. We had better options last season in defence then we do now and our defence was hardly rock solid then. Ferguson and Hegazi down from last season. Ivanovic is a carthorse. Kipre was a cheap nasty signing. Surely defence is an area easily strengthened even on a budget?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2021, 11:47:17 PM
I agree with this however our defence personnel wise is so bad. I think it's the only thing preventing us from being very competitive. We had better options last season in defence then we do now and our defence was hardly rock solid then. Ferguson and Hegazi down from last season. Ivanovic is a carthorse. Kipre was a cheap nasty signing. Surely defence is an area easily strengthened even on a budget?

I think it’s more a case of they cannot justify anymore additions given the amount we currently have - granted Kipre has made way.

I hold reservations about our defensive personnel but a lot of their mistakes came from us being far too easy to play through in the middle of the pitch. With the new additions we will hopefully provide them with greater protection and therefore not expose their weaknesses as often as we have done. Defending is very much a team game from back to front and unfortunately we’ve littered our squad with players not very good at it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 01, 2021, 11:49:05 PM
Wide players/forwards, also you forgot Diangana.

Also we've added 3 and got rid of 3 (Harper, Field and Krovinovic) so not sure where this post was in October...  ::)

You probably want to start reading my posts more often then rather than being ultra smug.

I’ve been chirping about getting the likes of Harper, Field and Edwards out on loan for a very long time.

If you have a problem with me, say it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 01, 2021, 11:51:41 PM
You probably want to start reading my posts more often then rather than being ultra smug.

I’ve been chirping about getting the likes of Harper, Field and Edwards out on loan for a very long time.

If you have a problem with me, say it.

No problem and not being smug, just an odd post from yourself.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 02, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
No problem and not being smug, just an odd post from yourself.

Odd? 

Sometimes I really do think you come in here just to try to get a rise out of people. You add little.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 02, 2021, 12:08:36 AM
Odd? 

Sometimes I really do think you come in here just to try to get a ride out of people. You add little.

Odd in that only now you are highlighting how many midfielders (and including some that were signed as forwards) we have when we've got the same amount we had at the end of the summer window but of obviously better quality in the key central areas.

Regards contribution to the site I'm more than comfortable with mine and think some usually rational posters have lost the plot since the managerial change...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 02, 2021, 12:13:34 AM
Odd in that only now you are highlighting how many midfielders (and including some that were signed as forwards) we have when we've got the same amount we had at the end of the summer window but of obviously better quality in the key central areas.

Regards contribution to the site I think some usually rational posters have lost the plot since the managerial change...

As I said to you in my first post, I’m not “only now highlighting it”. I said exactly the same thing in the summer about having Edwards, Field and Harper here when they were better served going out on loan. It’s a drum I’ve been banging for a few years.

The only difference tonight is that while before we had a few kids making the squad look a bit inflated, now we have a number of senior players who will be expecting game time.

I think it highlights a muddled recruitment policy over the last couple of seasons and for me, some poor decision making.

As for the managerial change, I supported the removal of Bilic, I understood (but didn’t love) the hire of Allardyce but have my own preference for a longer term option like Cook,
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 02, 2021, 01:24:49 AM
 27 man squad for the 2nd half of the season

                                                   
                                                       GK
                                                Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                                Button      (31, 2022)
                                                Lonergan  (37, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
        RB                                     CB                                   CB                                               LB
   Furlong (24, 2023)          Ajayi (26,2023)              Ivanovic (36,2021)                     Gibbs (30 2021)
   Peltier (36, 2021)           Bartley (28, 2021)          O'Shea* (20, 2023                     Townsend (27, 2021)
                                                               

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,2021)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers  (28,2022)          Yokuslu        (26, 2021)                                       
                                                                                   
      7                                                           10                                     11
Phillips (29 ,2022)                       Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)
Edwards  (21, 2021)                                                                 Snodgrass (33 2022)
Robinson, (25, 2025)                                                                Grosiki (33 2021)
Maitland-Niles (23,2021)                                                           
                         
                                                               CF
                                                   Diagne (29, 2021)
                                                   Grant (23, 2026)
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)

I suspect 4-4-1-1 will be the standard shape similar to the 2nd half of the Fulham game with Maitland-Miles replacing Gallagher wide right and Yokuslu replacing Sawyers
                                                     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 02, 2021, 09:41:35 AM

I suspect 4-4-1-1 will be the standard shape similar to the 2nd half of the Fulham game with Maitland-Miles replacing Gallagher wide right and Yokuslu replacing Sawyers
                                                   

This could well be correct but the signing of Maitland-Niles opens up a few more options for us with his ability to be comfortable both central and wide.

433
A central trio of Gallagher, Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles with Gallagher breaking into the box, Yokuslu sitting and Maitland-Niles either overlapping Pereira cutting in from the right or holding his position and covering Furlong as he moves forward.

4231
A combative double pivot of Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles  could allow our attacking midfielders a little more freedom and release them from the defensive side of the game.

4411
As above with Maitland-Niles on the right but could also have Maitland-Niles as one of the central two.

442 Diamond
Gets someone closer to Diagne with Gallagher bursting into the box as he was most dangerous for Charlton and Swansea at times last season. Maitland-Niles on the right of the diamond and Snodgrass on the left as the shuttlers with Yokuslu holding. Could also be Pereira at the tip of the diamond which allows a Grant or Robinson up top with Diagne.

All of the above are very similar and different tweaks with most of the same players but it is Maitland-Niles' flexibility which allows this the most, think he will be a key signing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tlms-p23 on February 02, 2021, 11:45:03 AM
27 man squad for the 2nd half of the season

                                                   
                                                       GK
                                                Johnstone  (27, 2022 )
                                                Button      (31, 2022)
                                                Lonergan  (37, 2021)                                                                                   
                                           
        RB                                     CB                                   CB                                               LB
   Furlong (24, 2023)          Ajayi (26,2023)              Ivanovic (36,2021)                     Gibbs (30 2021)
   Peltier (36, 2021)           Bartley (28, 2021)          O'Shea* (20, 2023                     Townsend (27, 2021)
                                                               

                                          6                                     6
                                 Gallagher* (20,2021)        Livermore    (30,2022)
                                  Sawyers  (28,2022)          Yokuslu        (26, 2021)                                       
                                                                                   
      7                                                           10                                     11
Phillips (29 ,2022)                       Pereira   (24, 2024 )                Diangana (22, 2025)
Edwards  (21, 2021)                                                                 Snodgrass (33 2022)
Robinson, (25, 2025)                                                                Grosiki (33 2021)
Maitland-Niles (23,2021)                                                           
                         
                                                               CF
                                                   Diagne (29, 2021)
                                                   Grant (23, 2026)
                                                   Robson-Kanu (30, 2021)

I suspect 4-4-1-1 will be the standard shape similar to the 2nd half of the Fulham game with Maitland-Miles replacing Gallagher wide right and Yokuslu replacing Sawyers
                                                   

That’s an awful lot of contacts expiring in the next 18 months (all apart from Ajayi, O’Shea, Furlong, Pereira, Diangana, Grant).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 02, 2021, 11:56:06 AM
That’s an awful lot of contacts expiring in the next 18 months (all apart from Ajayi, O’Shea, Furlong, Pereira, Diangana, Grant).

A lot of overpaid deadweight gone. If the transfer team are upto it we've got a promising future.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 02, 2021, 12:00:08 PM
A lot of overpaid deadweight gone. If the transfer team are upto it we've got a promising future.

Hopefully Livermore, Gibbs, Phillips, Kanu will FINALLY get out of our club. Feels like all of them have been here about 20 years.

Add to them Sawyers, Edwards, Bartley (even though he gives his all).

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 02, 2021, 12:05:33 PM
Hopefully Livermore, Gibbs, Phillips, Kanu will FINALLY get out of our club. Feels like all of them have been here about 20 years.

Add to them Sawyers, Edwards, Bartley (even though he gives his all).

Ivanovich and Peltier too who offer next to nothing but take up 50k per week out the budget roughly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 02, 2021, 12:06:03 PM
Ivanovich and Peltier too who offer next to nothing but take up 50k per week out the budget roughly.

They will be gone automatically IMO.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 02, 2021, 12:06:57 PM
They will be gone automatically IMO.


Should be! Fingers crossed for a good summer window.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Pie on February 02, 2021, 12:11:00 PM
I think we always look best in a 4-2-3-1

             Johnstone
 
Furlong  Ajayi   Bartley  Townsend

      Yokuslu    Gallagher

  AMN       Pereira   Diangana

               Diagne
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on February 02, 2021, 04:03:09 PM
Although I don't know alot about our new signings (apart from Snodgrass), I am quite hopeful. They all have played at a decent level and indeed we have 4 extra internationals.

Not wanting to be overly critical, but we now seem a bit overloaded in centre midfield, given AMN says he's only coming here to play there. I hope this doesn't mean we end up getting bunched up in the middle and neglect proper wingplay, which helps stretch defences. That's the main problem with 4-4-2. You can put Pereira, Gallagher, Snodgrass maybe AMN all out wide, but none of them are really equipped to get around the backs to the byline, which is what you need from wingers. At the same time, you'd want to be able to accomodate the aforementioned 4 players into the line up because of their quality.

As for strengthening the defence, having Okay in as a DCM should make a difference, and apparently Okay can also play back 4. He certainly has the height. 

My starting line up v Spurs would be:

                                          Johnstone
       OShea           Ajayi                         Bartley         Gibbs

                                                                                       
                        AMN                Okay         Pereira                   

                     Snodgrass               Diagne              Diangana/Grosicki       
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 02, 2021, 04:21:12 PM
Hopefully Livermore, Gibbs, Phillips, Kanu will FINALLY get out of our club.....

...... brace yourself, if we go down I can see us offering HRK a twelve month extension on reduced terms.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 02, 2021, 04:29:41 PM
One of my concerns with the number of players we now have vying for midfield places is what it means for Pereira. We know he is at his best when played centrally and we can see Allardyce is getting the best out of him now, but will there be a temptation to play him wide left to accommodate more central midfielders into the team?

For me, Pereira has to play centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 02, 2021, 04:31:32 PM
One of my concerns with the number of players we now have vying for midfield places is what it means for Pereira. We know he is at his best when played centrally and we can see Allardyce is getting the best out of him now, but will there be a temptation to play him wide left to accommodate more central midfielders into the team?

For me, Pereira has to play centrally.


Pereira has be played between the midfield and attack for me. Wasted out wide.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on February 02, 2021, 04:33:45 PM
Doesn't change anything for Pereira imo. Don't think we'll see anything of Diangana Sawyers and Livermore however, with Gallagher dropping to the bench.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on February 02, 2021, 04:37:01 PM
I imagine with the personnel we have now we will setup something similar to the wolves game

Johnstone

Right back - OShea

Left back - Gibbs Or Townsend

Centre halves - Ajayi Bartley

Right mid - Snodgrass

Centre mid - Yosulu Maitland-Niles

Left mid - one of - Robinson / Diangana / Grant

Attacking Mid - Pereira

Striker - Diange
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 02, 2021, 04:38:21 PM
Even when we go two up front for spells during games I see Pereira being played behind them and through the middle providing support.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 02, 2021, 04:55:19 PM
One of my concerns with the number of players we now have vying for midfield places is what it means for Pereira. We know he is at his best when played centrally and we can see Allardyce is getting the best out of him now, but will there be a temptation to play him wide left to accommodate more central midfielders into the team?

For me, Pereira has to play centrally.

Allardyce was quite vocal about how good Pereira was centrally on Saturday after the game so fingers crossed it’s a position we see him in regularly going forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 03, 2021, 05:48:44 AM
Now we need to win 4 games and hope brighton or somebody keep dropping points. 16 games left. I think we can say the fat lady singing now.

As soon as its mathematical we should be telling those players who are out of contract who is staying or leaving
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on February 03, 2021, 09:29:27 AM
With all these so called midfield players why doesnt Sam try 352 my favourite setup.
We've almost got nothing to lose.
Its an attacking and defensive formation and means we can have 2 up front.
I can never understand just having one up top,its too much work to ask of one player and he'll rarely get into a scoring position because he's always trying to hold the ball up and waiting for others to play catch up.
I'd play Diagne & Robbo as the 2
Then Ajayi O'shea Townsend
Okay cm the magician to his left then Grady on the left Amn rm and Snoddy .
And have a go for once
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on February 03, 2021, 09:31:26 AM
I'm at the point now I'd consider Ajayi at right back .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on February 03, 2021, 02:49:48 PM
Can anyone explain the logic behind having Furlong, Gibbs and Peltier on the bench last night, whilst leaving out Edwards, Diangana (if fit) and Grosicki altogether, particularly as it was really a must-win game?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 03, 2021, 02:54:48 PM
I'm guessing here of course but I'd say

Edwards not rated
Grosicki being frozen out again
Diangana either not fully fit or not rated
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mikkyk on February 03, 2021, 03:19:13 PM
I think Grosicki's absence can be easily attributed to his lack of defensive work.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on February 03, 2021, 03:42:59 PM
I think Grosicki's absence can be easily attributed to his lack of defensive work.
If you're having to chase games because you're desperate for points (which we certainly are), attacking threat trumps defensive work IMO. You want subs available who can help to change games.

Gallagher, Robson-Kanu and Grant were the only attack-minded players out of 9 on the bench last night. How many of them are potential game-changers?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on February 03, 2021, 04:04:49 PM
Can anyone explain the logic behind having Furlong, Gibbs and Peltier on the bench last night, whilst leaving out Edwards, Diangana (if fit) and Grosicki altogether, particularly as it was really a must-win game?
No I can't explain it, you should have one of your quicker players on there at least. Similar to Sam bringing Furlong on ahead of Edwards when we were trailing at West Ham.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on February 07, 2021, 05:39:50 PM
Just looking at a few issues for next season , already whoever takes over will have Sawyers who isn't a DM but nobody knows his best position . Add Karlan Grant , not a lone forward and not a wide player . Both of these will be on decent money .
Then we come to Phillips , Livermore and Hal . All of these have had their day to be honest .
Our recruitment and forward planning is miles off .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 07, 2021, 10:05:57 PM
Just looking at a few issues for next season , already whoever takes over will have Sawyers who isn't a DM but nobody knows his best position . Add Karlan Grant , not a lone forward and not a wide player . Both of these will be on decent money .
Then we come to Phillips , Livermore and Hal . All of these have had their day to be honest .
Our recruitment and forward planning is miles off .

First things first don't set up in a low block.

Sawyers is not a DM he is a playmaker and that can be deep sitting or advanced. If you play him with two midfield all rounders in front or behind him he will be just fine. No you absolutely don't play him as a DM and you really don't play him two yards in front of a low block.

Grant/Robinson are the bigger problem they are in effect the same player as are to a lesser extent Diangana/Pereira. Both want to occupy the same space on the pitch and probably best suited to a similar role. One will be in that space/role the other will be slightly or hopelessly out of position depending on how lumpen the coach is and or what other mistakes we make in the next round of recruitment.

We desperately need the next coach in before the end of this season to try to sort this sort of issue out.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 15, 2021, 10:40:27 AM
Thought this might be worth looking at again given that Allardyce has his own players and yesterday's game was the first time he was able to start with them all. A lot of this very much match specific and there is not a lot of evidence (well based on an Albion career) for some of the early judgements

Formation

4-1-4-1
                                      Johnstone
           
                Peltier      Ajayi    Bartley     Townsend
                       
                                        Yokuslu                                         
                                                                                   
             Snodgrass     Gallaghee   Maitland-Niles  Pereira                                               
                       
                                         Diagne

Tactically low block obviously never anything else doubly so when we scored early and for large parts of the game it a a 4-5-1

Let's deal with the Pereira wide/central debate. Out wide is where the flair players play in Allardyce set ups. He'd probably prefer a clone of Snodgrass out there but he has to work with what he has. To be fair Pereira did seem to have a license to roam and of all our players had the most touches outside of his own channel although he had more touches in his own box than United's

Peltier was the other controversial selection and I've seen some criticism of the player for not providing much attacking width. He was selected because he is a better defender of small spaces than Furlong. He is not going to get forward he is not on the pitch to get forward and you absolutely don't want him a foot race with any of the United forwards. I suspect Allardyce will continue to pick him ahead of Furlong or O'Shea.

Moving onto the new players.

 Yokuslu made his first start looked accomplished on and off the ball. I think his passing range is decent but the movement ahead of him was virtually none existent at times. Allardyce pulled him off at 67 minutes and I've seen criticism of this but Yokuslu has had very little game time this season and in the short term 60 odd minutes is what he's got pushing beyond that risks injury.

Diagne did well the target man style striker we have probably needed all season. Not particularly quick but a willing worker. His X-G was pretty much the same as the teams X-G 1.3 which suggests that the 3 chances he had would sometimes result in two goals would more frequently result in one goal and very occasionally 3. He scored one which might have been the least likely of the 3.

Snodgrass played wide right tends to drift in because he is left footed and with Peltier not overlapping this made us a little lopsided. Did nothing wrong in his role which was the classic auxiliary right back. No, I personally still don't get this at all.

Niles-Maitland is a very good footballer and has a wonderful career ahead of him anywhere down the right wing space as a full-back, wing back or winger maybe even as an inverted winger on the left hand side.  He is not a central midfielder. Gallagher is 3 years his junior has far less senior experience and is light years ahead of him as a central midfielder. He may as well want a career as a goalkeeper because that isn't going to happen either.

Overall this looked like an Allardyce team.                           
                                         
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 15, 2021, 01:05:53 PM
No need for a low block at Burnley, need to play 15 yards up the pitch, what have we got to lose?  The pressure is on Burnley.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 15, 2021, 01:47:13 PM
No need for a low block at Burnley, need to play 15 yards up the pitch, what have we got to lose?  The pressure is on Burnley.

Two teams trying to give the ball to their opponents so they can counter. We will look as hopeless as Man United but stripped of the £100m's of talent even uglier.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on February 15, 2021, 02:07:21 PM

Peltier was the other controversial selection and I've seen some criticism of the player for not providing much attacking width. He was selected because he is a better defender of small spaces than Furlong. He is not going to get forward he is not on the pitch to get forward and you absolutely don't want him a foot race with any of the United forwards. I suspect Allardyce will continue to pick him ahead of Furlong or O'Shea.

Snodgrass played wide right tends to drift in because he is left footed and with Peltier not overlapping this made us a little lopsided. Did nothing wrong in his role which was the classic auxiliary right back. No, I personally still don't get this at all.
                   
I'm a bit hesitant criticising SA's selection given their fine performance yesterday, but playing Peltier does limit us alot going forward. Alot of goal chances come from crosses.
Furlong is much better at this and his late cross to Diagne almost won us the game. If Peltier had been on the pitch, that chance wouldn't have arisen.

Snodgrass was playing right side and he is a good crosser, but he lacks the pace to get behind full backs.  As it happens, the goal came from Gallagher drifting out of position onto that wing.
In the modern game, full backs offer attacking width. What would Man U do without Shaw's crosses, or L'pool without Alexander-Arnold? They lose their width and alot of their attacking threat.

For us, I think it is a case of either Peltier has to develop his game going forward or Furlong has to improve his defensive game. To me, the latter is the more realistic option.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on February 15, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
Forget the one up top.
I want the big fella and the magician up top as a 2.
We have to attack from the off be positive and no sitting back to then try and hit on the break.
352
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 15, 2021, 09:36:31 PM
Bit harsh on Maitland-Niles Stan for me and I think his athleticism and defensive diligence allows Pereira that freedom to drift from the wide positions. I'm interested to see whether Pereira stays left or goes right. On the left it allows him to vacate his flank with Townsend providing natural width and decent crossing ability but I wonder if that was a tactic against United as Wan Bissaka isn't a decent attacking threat.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 16, 2021, 11:32:19 AM
Burnley's main tactic will be to sling over crosses repeatedly to Barnes and Wood(remember him?) and hope that something in our defence breaks - not an unreasonable expectation.

So quite apart form the sheer lumpen ugliness of the tactic, I don't we can't back off and just defend the penalty area.

We've got nothing to lose, let's go out and play.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 16, 2021, 11:54:49 AM
Bit harsh on Maitland-Niles Stan for me and I think his athleticism and defensive diligence allows Pereira that freedom to drift from the wide positions. I'm interested to see whether Pereira stays left or goes right. On the left it allows him to vacate his flank with Townsend providing natural width and decent crossing ability but I wonder if that was a tactic against United as Wan Bissaka isn't a decent attacking threat.

I might be overstating my case and I am not in the least bit negative about the player. I am just mystified why he doesn't embrace what he is and what seems to a be a position in which the attributes describe are best deployed in and play in the wide right channel for a top 6 club. You mention Wan Bissaka and Maitland-Niles would be an upgrade for United certainly going forward and they wouldn't be giving much up on the defensive side.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on March 14, 2021, 01:39:35 AM
Goal keeper has some form and is benefiting from no crowd pressure we can cash in summer. Which is a miracle based on the 2 years previous that we might turn a profit.

Back 4 that played today plus Ajayi are more than capable to play in championship. We do need another right and left back.

Midfield we are overstocked. We need to make a decision on field and harper. Livermore and sawyers cant play together another dcm and we might be ok with sawyers.

Phillips I would get rid of if possible. Not sure about snodgrass he did ok first few games then seems to have finally found our level. Robinson grant and diangana all competing for left wing. So unless we utilize Robinson up top or wide right we are too overstocked there.

If we can retain periera we can play the 4231 and build team around him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on March 18, 2021, 09:27:16 PM
It is ironic that we spent half a season trying to convert 2 support forwards (or wide forwards) into centre forwards playing the lone striker role and then finally, when we actually brought in a centre forward who would have complemented their style of play, we have barely seen anything of them.

I really hope if Allardyce has any intention to stay on next season, that we see him try Robinson and Grant alongside Diagne for a few games in the next month. It feels like Allardyce is very wedded to the idea of playing his loan signings no matter what, but with 3 goals in 7 games, surely its time to try something new.

I'd love to see Pereira and Grant/Robinson played alongside Diagne with 2 defensive midfielders anchoring the midfield (Yokuslu and AMN might just get the pairing ahead of Gallagher for me).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 18, 2021, 10:35:50 PM
I think Standaman summed it up well.

Why don't we get a coach that will work with what we've got, rather than manipulate what we've got into his idealistic philosophy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 21, 2021, 01:07:21 AM
I think Standaman summed it up well.

Why don't we get a coach that will work with what we've got, rather than manipulate what we've got into his idealistic philosophy.

I think that was in response to the big shopping lists in the Allardyce thread. The existing squad less the loanees two outbound transfers (Johnstone and Pereira) and at least 5 players unlikely to be offered new contracts. Against that there are 4 Senior loanees returning (Kipre, Harper, Zohore and Palmer). Whoever the coach is will have some scope for shaping the squad to their requirements but never the less they will be working with the players at the club as much as the ones they will be able to bring in.

Posters are scathing about the existing squad which is not entirely surprising given the bin fire that this season has turned into but if all those under contract for next season were released most would land at Championship level or better. This squad was promoted just a year ago. The question is how could a coach set up to get the most out of what is already here and therefore get the biggest boost from players we are likely to be able to bring in.

Goalkeeper
Palmer, Button and cover (Griffiths ??)

I think it has to be Palmer done well at Lincoln and his promotion to first choice in the Championship is a natural progression and any fee from the Johnstone sale should be used to leverage an improvement elsewhere. Tactically goal keepers used to be uninteresting but the position has evolved where they have an influence on the structure of the whole team. To this extent Palmer seems seems fairly comfortable with ball at his feet but were he required to be a genuine sweeper keeper that is an unknown.

Defense

Full Backs Townsend and Furlong.
Centre Backs Bartley, O'Shea, Ajayi and Kipre

This is okay either as a 4 or a 3 but given the impact elsewhere it really has to be a 4 rather than 3. Although given a blank sheet of paper I would be tempted to go with a 3 given that both full backs might be better used as wing backs and Phillips might be ok cover at RWB but there are 5 other wide players on our books and absolutely none of them are wing backs.

For this reason I wouldn't hire a coach who was wedded to playing a back 3. Whether we played in a low block or held a high line is open to debate at Championship level we would be capable of either.

Central Midfield

Livermore, Sawyers and Harper.

Given that Field seems quite likely to be heading to QPR we are short of numbers and can't really fashion a functioning midfield from the 3 players we have. Yet we need at least one to be a regular. I wouldn't argue for any of them in a midfield 2 almost regardless of who we bought in to partner them. This pretty much rules out a 4-4-2. None of them are a natural 10 in a 4-2-3-1 Livermore might be okay in the 6 role in a double pivot. Harper as an 8 in a 4-3-3 or Sawyers as an advanced playmaker 10 in a 4-2-1-3 it is difficult to work 2 into any line up.


Wide Players

Snodgrass, Edwards, Phillips, Diangana, Robinson and Grant. 

2 left footers and 3 right footed wide players. Snodgrass and Phillips are the more traditional wingers the rest are probably best deployed as wide forwards inverted in a 4-3-3. Unfortunately Robinson and Grant are pretty much the same player and while both could be deployed centrally it is difficult to see them coexisting in the same line up.

Forwards

Zohore, and even with the best will in the world we are looking at a squad player at best here.

My starting point might look something like this

Palmer

Furlong
Bartley
Ajayi
Townsend

Livermore (New Player)
Snodgrass (New Player)
Sawyers

Diangana
Zohore (New Player)
Grant

Other than at Centre Back and Wide Left we lack any sort of depth and although I absolutely hate bringing in players as back up options  that might be necessary.

While we have to get a tune out of the existing players there is a lot of scope for a new head coach to take the team in a new direction probably the only thing they can't do is go to a back 3.




Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 21, 2021, 08:46:14 AM
I don't know enough about tactics to have a sensible conversation on the subject, but I am reasonably confident with financial matters.

As things stand, we have a significant part of our asset value tied up in two players, (Diangana & Grant). additionally the structure of the Grant deal means we will have outgoings to Huddersfield for the next 6 seasons.
Although we should get a profit on the sale of Pereira & Sam Johnstone, IMO it's unlikely for Diangana & Grant.
We will have parachute payments & flex downs in wages, but I just don't see funds available for a major clear out.

Given that financial background, I'd say your tactical appraisal is about right, & we almost certainly need a "progressive" coach to make it work.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggieBoy04 on March 21, 2021, 10:05:32 PM
4-1-3-2
Line Up
             Johnstone
Furlong/O Shea  Bartley O Shea/Ajayi  Townsend
                        Okay
Diangana     Pereira       Robinson/Phillips/Kamil
                  Diagne/Robinson/Grant
Subs
Button, Ajayi if not playing, Ivanovic, Kamil or Phillips, Sawyers/Livermoore or AMN, HRK (Were stuck with him either way and then maybe a Kid Field, Morton so on.
       
   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on April 03, 2021, 06:27:19 PM
Today throws up a few conundrums - different formations, the magic of Pereira and Callum Robinson.

Question is - how do we move forward from here?

Do we operate with three at the back or are we a 442?

Where does Conor Gallagher fit in? Do we drop AMN?

Interested to hear your views..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on April 03, 2021, 06:34:58 PM
Today throws up a few conundrums - different formations, the magic of Pereira and Callum Robinson.

Question is - how do we move forward from here?

Do we operate with three at the back or are we a 442?

Where does Conor Gallagher fit in? Do we drop AMN?

Interested to hear your views..

I must be in a minority that thought Maitland-Niles played well, I'd look to get Robbo in for Phillips and Gallagher for the crocked O'Shea. 4 at the back, go from there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on April 03, 2021, 06:44:42 PM
I must be in a minority that thought Maitland-Niles played well

I agree as my post alludes to in his thread. He was much improved today.

It was more a point to enable a discussion with Gallagher set to return.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on April 03, 2021, 06:55:24 PM
Start next game how we finished today. Robinson needs to play and be fluid with periera
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on April 03, 2021, 08:57:10 PM
Start next game how we finished today. Robinson needs to play and be fluid with Pereira

Exactly. Don't change a winning team. Don't try to fix something which isn't broken.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on April 04, 2021, 09:35:16 AM
Robinson has played himself into the team in a wide area which puts Pereira into the middle. I think this means Gallagher has to stay out the side which is a shame.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on April 04, 2021, 10:19:01 AM
I think what we have seen following yesterday is that our previous cautious approach should be thrown out the window. I cannot see AMN and Gallagher remaining in the same side as that forces us to have Pereira wide when he has demonstrated his worth centrally.

My own preference going forwards would be:

Johnstone

Furlong Ajayi Bartley Townsend

Yokuslu AMN

Phillips Pereira Robinson

Diagne

The above provides us with defensive solidity as AMN looks much better defensively than offensively. With Robinson, Pereira, Phillips and Diagne we have a varied attack.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 04, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
I think there were two distinct phases to the game yesterday the 11 v 11 phase and 10 v 11. They were totally different and I think it is too easy to jump to the wrong conclusion . The key difference aside from Robinson being on the pitch was that both he and Pereira were a lot closer to Diagne and for me going forward this is the key.

The starting positions of Robinson and Pereira don't much matter be they wide in a front 3 or in some sort of 4-3-2-1 combination it is their proximity to Diagne who benefits from having players around him rather than 10 to 15 yards back, Having more control of the ball in the oppositions half allows the full backs to join and both were involved goals yesterday.

The trade off is that we play a back 3 and or the double pivot sits a little deeper. Oddly enough I think this might suite Maitland-Niles who looked a lot more comfortable playing deeper yesterday than at any other point in his Albion career.

None of this is particularly good news for Gallagher

It is easy to get carried away with yesterday's performance and a lot of the positives were due to us playing 10 men who weren't particularly well organised who gave up a couple of bad goals from their point of view and then chased the game throughout the 2nd half and were picked off. It is a pity other teams have been less obliging.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on April 04, 2021, 10:56:21 AM
I do see Pereira's starting position as having a far bigger impact Stan. Played out wide,  he does not have the pace to beat a man on the outside (taking away one line of attack for us) and his passing channels are restricted. His progressive passing options are either to hope for an over lapping full back after cutting in or a diagonal to the striker. He also only then has 2 attacking players with him as he is one of the forward line 3. He ends up finding himself boxed in.

He is a different player when starting in the middle with the introduction of a 3rd attacking passing option.  The pitch opens up for him, he can go to either wing or centrally and crucially, those runners pull markers and make space- something Pereira doesn't routinely do himself when starting in a wider position.

It gets harder and harder to ignore the evidence each passing game. Player ofbthe season last year (when central). Player of the month nomination in Jan playing centrally. Dip in form in Feb and March when in a wider role. Man of the match yesterday...when playing centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 04, 2021, 12:08:00 PM
I do see Pereira's starting position as having a far bigger impact Stan. Played out wide,  he does not have the pace to beat a man on the outside (taking away one line of attack for us) and his passing channels are restricted. His progressive passing options are either to hope for an over lapping full back after cutting in or a diagonal to the striker. He also only then has 2 attacking players with him as he is one of the forward line 3. He ends up finding himself boxed in.

He is a different player when starting in the middle with the introduction of a 3rd attacking passing option.  The pitch opens up for him, he can go to either wing or centrally and crucially, those runners pull markers and make space- something Pereira doesn't routinely do himself when starting in a wider position.

It gets harder and harder to ignore the evidence each passing game. Player ofbthe season last year (when central). Player of the month nomination in Jan playing centrally. Dip in form in Feb and March when in a wider role. Man of the match yesterday...when playing centrally.

It wholly depends on what is around him. As part of a genuine front 3 with a midfield behind him to facilitate it I still think that might be his best role but that has pretty much never been the case apart from a small part of last season pre lockdown. As soon as traditional wingers like Phillips and Diangana are on the pitch Pereira has to be the 10. Having Robinson or Grant  (the two are interchangeable) in the side does change the dynamic because both will drift in from left so there is greater scope for rotational movement.

The more important issue or least ways the point I was trying to make is how far up the pitch he plays is key and how close he is to the the other forward players. Not being the sole creative totem is also quite likely to be instrumental to getting better performances from both player and team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on April 04, 2021, 01:38:30 PM
Another factor to consider is the opposition will focus upon nullifying MP now, the Soton thugs will single him out !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on April 04, 2021, 02:16:14 PM

The above provides us with defensive solidity as AMN looks much better defensively than offensively. With Robinson, Pereira, Phillips and Diagne we have a varied attack.

Agree with this although on occasions where we are just the ascendancy, I'd be looking to replace Phillips. Phillips is a useful starter as he can become a right wing back with Furlong tucking inside to allow some tactical variety.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on April 04, 2021, 03:35:14 PM
Is it possible to agree with both of the great posts from both Standaman and Baggies? Albionic also has an excellent point in how do we get some protection for MP against the thugs who have and will target him in games. Need a captain to get in the ref's face every couple of minutes or so.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 04, 2021, 05:53:42 PM
Another factor to consider is the opposition will focus upon nullifying MP now, the Soton thugs will single him out !
Think we need to focus on getting our own game going again against Southampton. The game at their place we were half asleep and completely outplayed. Like it or not you have to trust refs and VAR where it comes to players being singled out. Plenty of teams have star players in the premier league and most get pretty good protection these days I'd say.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on April 04, 2021, 06:28:50 PM
Think we need to focus on getting our own game going again against Southampton. The game at their place we were half asleep and completely outplayed. Like it or not you have to trust refs and VAR where it comes to players being singled out. Plenty of teams have star players in the premier league and most get pretty good protection these days I'd say.

The key word is 'most'
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 04, 2021, 06:46:18 PM
The key word is 'most'
I was just a bit surprised this was even being raised to be honest. I'm not sure Southampton are noted for their thuggery are they ? Also I can't remember any horror challenges on Pereira to date.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on April 04, 2021, 06:47:35 PM
Was pleasantly surprised with Allardyce's tactics yesterday. If we had of just tried to go for a 1-0, Chelsea would have eventually broken us down.  We actually tried to play a high pressing game to try and force Chelsea's slow build-up into errors (and it worked for MP's second goal). 
Robinson also did what we have been doing very poorly all season. Making runs from deep into scoring positions. Also, I was pleased to see Furlong and Townsend getting forward, and they contributed directly to the 3rd and 4th goals.
It proves, to me anyway, that to win matches you need to get forward in numbers, and then get back in numbers to defend. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: chippyclarke on April 04, 2021, 08:51:45 PM
I was just a bit surprised this was even being raised to be honest. I'm not sure Southampton are noted for their thuggery are they ? Also I can't remember any horror challenges on Pereira to date.
It was Bill Shankley back in the 60's that labelled them "alehouse brawlers" and they certainly were!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on April 04, 2021, 09:06:27 PM
It was Bill Shankley back in the 60's that labelled them "alehouse brawlers" and they certainly were!
That side would have had the likes of Jimmy Gabriel , John McGrath etc . They scared away ale house brawlers !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on April 04, 2021, 09:12:01 PM
I was thinking of Oriol Romeu specifically, but Bertrand and the center halves are prone to 'going through' with the back of a player with a tackle
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on April 13, 2021, 08:10:59 AM
Despite Joe Masi's insistence that we played 4231 yesterday, we actually didnt we played 442 with Pereira upfront with Diagne. Pereira, as he does, drops from there into the ten role at times. Live score.com have us listed as 442 (although they've mixed up the positions of Robinson and Pereira) while flashscore.com have us as 4411. I can understand 4411 as sometimes it can be down to interpretation but really it was more 442.

I'm not sure what Masi watches sometimes, although from his vantage point inside the stadium it may be difficult to tell.

Yokuslu and Maitland-Niles sure as hell weren't playing in a double pivot though, that shouldve been clear enough to spot, both getting around the pitch. Phillips was used wide right as a sort of genuine right sided midfielder with Robinson  wide left as the more attacking wide player.

You can notice Yokuslu's role has changed slightly he no longer sits in front of the defence in a three.

It will be interesting to see how we line up against Leicester who are likely to play two up top Vardy and Iheanacho. I didn't see their game against West Ham but it seems they played 3412. It'll be interesting to see if we change formation to deal with that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 21, 2021, 02:26:10 PM
Thought I'd reboot this in the light of the likely appointment of Valerian Ismael. I've mapped out the current squad in a 3-4-3 which is his stock shape with a high press.
                                                                       
                                                                         GK
                                                               Johnstone  (28, 2022 )
                                                               Palmer     (24,2023)
                                                               Button     (31, 2022)                                                                                                                         
                                           
                                             CB                               CB                                 CB                                                               
                                   O'Shea (22, 2023)             Bartley (29, 2022)    Ajayi (27,2023)                 
                                   Kipre   (24,2024)

           RWB                                       8                                            8                                       LWB                                                     
     Furlong (25, 2023)           Livermore  (31,2022)           Sawyers  (29,2022)                  Townsend (28, 2024)
                                           Harper      (20, 2022) 
                                                                                             
                        RWF                                                 CF                                                LWF
               Pereira   (25, 2024 )                           Zohore  (27 2023)                 Robinson (26, 2025)
               Diangana (23, 2025)                                                                      Grant     (23, 2026)                     
               Snodgrass (33, 2022)                                                                     Phillips   (30 ,2022)
     
                                                     
Aside from the shape there is a style at it's best is a high press designed to compact the space in front of the back 3 and win the ball as high up the pitch as possible. The wide players in the front three are inverted and the wing backs provide width. Ball progression is flexible Ismael's teams can be direct but at their best pass the ball well and have a great deal fluidity among a front three in possession. This is very much the version of his style that was prominent at LASK. The style at Barnsley was a lot more direct and heavily dependent on vertical long balls and set pieces but regardless the shape and personnel requirements are the same

Looking at the squad the issues are different to those created by the potential hiring of Wilder who also worked with a back 3 but never the less there is a common thread as to the areas of the pitch where we are just short of options. e.g. Central Midfield and Centre Forward.

Goal Keeper

As ever with Johnstone probably leaving Palmer seems to be the obvious successor.  However there are some specific requirements it is helpful if the keeper's distribution is good and more critically they do need to be able to sweep behind a high back line. I don't know if Palmer can but that is what we need.

Defence

At Centre Back we are probably short of numbers and I am not entirely sure we have the right personnel Ajayi and O'Shea might have the pace to work in a high line but Bartley is more of a concern, he generally has always looked more comfortable in a low block and Kipre remains a bit of a mystery. If we are going to play out form the back rather than be very direct we absolutely need at least one left footed Centre Back.

Midfield

This is a problem regardless of who we bought in as Head Coach

Wing Backs are fine but right now there isn't cover and given the role you can't get by by putting a Centre Back (e.g. O'Shea) out there, Phillips at a stretch on the right but we have nothing on the left.

Central midfield is a different kettle of fish we are short of numbers and quality. Ismael uses a double 8 central midfield rather than double pivot with a DM. However the distinction is somewhat arbitrary neither roles have the luxury of sitting deep a high press requires a high degree of mobility and aggression however how well the central midfielders retain and pass the ball will determine the fluidity and again whether it's LASK or Barnsley. I would add that a high press is not solely about charging around the pitch tackling everything that moves but also closing down passing lanes with intelligent movement.   

Attack

We potentially have two options in both wide attackers positions all of whom would be ideal for the set up

We've got Zohore and I am far from certain he is fit for purpose at any level. Grant and Robinson could be used as Centre Forward options but neither are the sort of target man the system requires and besides which one of them would be playing left wing. We need goals physical presence and an intense work rate.

To get a functioning first XI we need

2 x Central Midfielders
1 x Strikers
1 left footed Centre Back

All at starter level quality if any of the current starters leave they need replacing, for back up options I would look first at the club's under 23's
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 21, 2021, 05:54:55 PM
I know Callum Morton has had his injury problems but he could be someone who interests Ismael due to his energy and intensity (from the limited amounts I've seen). I'm not saying he should be a first choice but it would be nice if we had a head coach who is keen to identify 4 or 5 youngsters to blood in the team sooner rather than later (he might need to out of necessity).

My own view is that despite Zohore's physique he seems to prefer playing off the shoulder and running onto things rather than being a traditional target man to pump balls forward to.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on June 21, 2021, 05:59:14 PM
Thanks Standaman...looks more than workable. I wonder what Kipre is like and if he will work, Ajayi seems like the obvious defender that will work, despite his errors while we might see Furlong flourish in this system. Grant, Robinson and Diangana should be more than suited. I'm excited to see what he can do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on June 21, 2021, 06:16:13 PM
The reports I read on Kipre at the time suggested he was very similar to Ajayi and for that reason might not complement each other. Kipre therefore might work in this system.

I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on June 21, 2021, 07:45:23 PM
The reports I read on Kipre at the time suggested he was very similar to Ajayi and for that reason might not complement each other. Kipre therefore might work in this system.

I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.

So you'd have to say 2 of those 3 with a left footed CB may be the way forward when drawing your's and Standaman's observations together, which leaves Bartley as back up potentially. Not such a bad thing, this style won't be good for Bartley.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adamstv on June 21, 2021, 09:23:33 PM


I think O'Shea with his long balls could be a big winner in Ismael's system.
[/quote]

No real answer to that one. No wonder he wears his shorts down to his knees
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on June 24, 2021, 05:28:11 PM
Thanks for your excellent assessment above, Standaman. I didn't want to respond to it until I knew who our new manager was going to be but, now that Valérien has been confirmed and knowing what his general style of play is going to be, I think we need a greater turnover of players than might otherwise have been the case.
All in all, it's going to be an intriguing few weeks building up to the season to see how well the players are going to adapt to what's now going to be asked of them and, consequently, what the resulting comings and goings will be! I'm excited to see how it all unfolds!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on June 24, 2021, 05:43:20 PM
I agree Worcs - it's exciting. It might all be terrible, but it will be exciting to see it unfold.

Given it's a four year deal, I think we may e can expect a more gradual churn of players than perhaps we'd see with a 2 year deal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on June 24, 2021, 05:51:31 PM
A couple are mentioning Phillips but he finished the season looking a lot fitter and playing well. Of course people can speculate but I wouldn't rule any of the players out on the grounds of not being able to cut it on the fitness/intensity front.

They are likely to face a pre-season unlike any they have encountered before. It'll be interesting to see the first starting line-up for sure.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on June 24, 2021, 05:53:36 PM
I agree Worcs - it's exciting. It might all be terrible, but it will be exciting to see it unfold.

Given it's a four year deal, I think we may e can expect a more gradual churn of players than perhaps we'd see with a 2 year deal.
I don't see a mass clear out, we will need back up and at the very least Livermore isn't a shirker
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on June 24, 2021, 05:57:15 PM
I don't see a mass clear out, we will need back up and at the very least Livermore isn't a shirker
With so many players out of contract at the end of the season, either you have to give them new contracts (which we've been doing too readily for years) or the players concerned will have a bigger question mark over their heads as to whether they'll be motivated to do what's needed. during the season You could also argue that they need to play well to increase their chances of getting a new contract, but it quite often doesn't work out like that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 24, 2021, 06:02:11 PM
I think the younger players Diangana, Harper, Grant etc... at least have youth on their side. It is harder to see others adapting but I wouldn't write anyone off. One of the reasons why I have become increasingly enthusiastic about Ismael's appointment is that he can work with and improve players. 

That said he isn't a miracle worker and will need reinforcements. It will be interesting to see how this works Barnsley didn't recruit anyone over the age of 24 and with a high energy press it is difficult to see veterans fitting in.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on June 24, 2021, 07:20:12 PM
Dont think we should be going for a new keeper you would hope button and or palmer can step up.
Hoping people look for value elsewhere and dont come in for periera and we can try time him down to new terms with promotion bonus.

We need about 6 bodies in even if we dont ship anybody out. We dont have competion for either full back/wing back position phillips maybe? Central midfield not sure Harper is going to make grade and livermore and sawyers lack the dynamism we require so we need at least 2 there. We have only 1 recognised striker on books in big kenneth so we need 1 if not 2 in there (grant & Robinson) can be further back up.

If we are playing back 3 we need another cb we only have 4 on books. And some have raised questions about bartley in potentially a new setup. Will snodgrass be fit enough? He might be somebody for last 20mins of games etc. Phillips never been somebody to do more than a hour anyway...

Nevertheless i am excited and looking to see what valerien brings to the team
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on July 03, 2021, 12:00:56 AM
Imagine we didn’t do any business, this wins the league imo

Johnstone
Ajayi Bartley O’Shea
Furlong Livermore Mowatt Townsend
Pereira Grant Robinson

Imagine pereira and Johnstone will go however, get a left footed centre back in, centre mid and a striker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KnaveofAlbion on July 03, 2021, 11:45:24 PM
Imagine pereira and Johnstone will go however, get a left footed centre back in, centre mid and a striker.

As per Standaman above, i think we're agreed these are the three positions we're currently missing.

I'd look to save funds and not replace SJ if he goes, as stated above, we have that already covered i think.

If MP goes, use the money to get in two quality players and we're golden i'd say?!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on July 03, 2021, 11:52:34 PM
As per Standaman above, i think we're agreed these are the three positions we're currently missing.

I'd look to save funds and not replace SJ if he goes, as stated above, we have that already covered i think.

If MP goes, use the money to get in two quality players and we're golden i'd say?!

If we can get 15-20 million for Johnstone somehow, we would be able to get three quality players to fill those positions. Just make pereira give us a year, he’s got a contract. Even Kean Bryan on a free would be okay for the left centre back role.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: colinmax on July 04, 2021, 05:58:26 AM
we must all be fed up with Livermore with his unprofessional attitude giving away ridiculous freekicks and getting yellow and red cards but I think he actuallly has ability and 2 or 3 years ago he suddenly looked fitter and performances vastly improved.
I think he could be a surprise package under Ismael if he buys into his method because if he doesn't his days are over at the Albion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Throstletown on July 04, 2021, 08:03:36 AM
I think Jake can cut it when fit because we have a new good box to box centre mid, who gets stuck in and tackles, breaks up play and is a work horse as well.
When JL has had to do everyone's tackling he has failed trying to be everywhere and getting no where im happy to give him ago. His passing gets erratic when he's basically knackered which has been criticised sometimes but all our other midfielders have let him down at times is my opinion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on July 04, 2021, 09:12:06 AM
As per Standaman above, i think we're agreed these are the three positions we're currently missing.

I'd look to save funds and not replace SJ if he goes, as stated above, we have that already covered i think.

If MP goes, use the money to get in two quality players and we're golden i'd say?!
We would have no wing-back competition/cover in that scenario and it's a key position for Valerien's tactics. With an intensely physical high-pressing game across a 46 match season (plus cups), every position will need to be properly stocked and so I think our squad needs to be as full and balanced as possible. On that basis, I think there's still plenty for us to have to do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 04, 2021, 10:40:46 AM
First revision of the summer updated for Mowatt in and Harper out.  I repurposed Phillips as a RWB I honestly think he is a better fit there than inverted wide forward and it promotes him to first rotation rather than 3rd choice. 
                                                                       
                                                                         GK
                                                               Johnstone  (28, 2022 )
                                                               Palmer     (24,2023)
                                                               Button     (31, 2022)                                                                                                                         
                                           
                                             CB                               CB                                 CB                                                               
                                   O'Shea (22, 2023)             Bartley (29, 2022)    Ajayi (27,2023)                 
                                   Kipre   (24,2024)

           RWB                                       8                                            8                                       LWB                                                     
     Furlong (25, 2023)           Livermore  (31,2022)                    Mowatt (26,2024)           Townsend (28, 2024)
     Phillips   (30 ,2022)          Sawyers  (29,2022)
                                     
                                                                                             
                        RWF                                                 CF                                                LWF
               Pereira   (25, 2024 )                          Zohore  (27 2023)                   Robinson (26, 2025)
               Diangana (23, 2025)                                                                       Grant     (23, 2026)                     
               Snodgrass (33, 2022)   


Our squad is complete when there are two names under each of the outfield positions (except CF which needs 3) and 3 keepers. So unless there are some departures we 5 short. I suspect at least two of the depth roles will be promoted from within.

Exactly how the summer pans out depends on who leaves.

Johnstone it seems is nearly certain to leave. It would seem logical to promote Palmer and Button but that then opens up the question of what to do with the third goal keeping slot. Griffiths certainly has the ability but being the back option hardly helps his development a loan seems more likely at this point. An experienced keeper on a free for a season might be the way to go.

The funds the sale of Johnstone would generate would cover off most of what we need to do in terms of starter level recruits. e.g. Left footed Centre Back Centre Forward and Central Midfielder.

If we sell Pereira in addition to Johnstone things change. Diangana replaces him in the wide right role but we are still 2 deep in that area of the pitch. But with the additional funds we could look to upgrade across a number of position e.g. Wing Back Centre Back and Centre Forward.

My instincts would generally be to sell the star the player if it allowed you to upgrade three or four positions but when you factor Pereira's future worth in the Premier League I would hope to keep him for this season.     

                                                                   
     
                                                     

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on July 04, 2021, 10:58:46 AM
Even if we sold both Pereira and Johnstone I think I’d be reluctant to spend big on upgrades for Furlong and Townsend. Both full / wing backs need big upgrades for the premier league, but I think the skills that will be valuable for us in the prem are different to those that be valuable in the championship. 

If we are promoted both would be high on my list, I think we have perhaps overlooked them in the past and how different the role is in a team towards the top of a division vs one towards the bottom.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on July 04, 2021, 11:57:54 AM
First revision of the summer updated for Mowatt in and Harper out.  I repurposed Phillips as a RWB I honestly think he is a better fit there than inverted wide forward and it promotes him to first rotation rather than 3rd choice. 
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding some of what you're trying to do with your useful and detailed analysis, but you seem to be ignoring the following:
If, for a given player, the answer to either of the above is "no" then I think we ought to be replacing them at the earliest opportunity.

Ultimately, if we do get promoted, we can't end up in a position where almost the entire first team needs to be replaced by better players, because we know that the finances just won't be there to do that. On the other hand, failing to do that would mean that we're likely to just keep yo-yoing (at best).

Therefore, my view is that some of the current squad aren't up to one or both of the above criteria and need to be replaced now by younger/more athletic players who might also stand a chance of being able to be effective in the same system in the Premier League.

If people think that's going to be too much of a rebuild, my response would be to ask when exactly would be a good time to do it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 04, 2021, 12:05:51 PM
Stating the obvious though you do need other clubs to be interested in signing someone before you offload. I don't think we'd be looking at buying out contracts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on July 04, 2021, 01:09:39 PM
...
Ultimately, if we do get promoted, we can't end up in a position where almost the entire first team needs to be replaced by better players, because we know that the finances just won't be there to do that. On the other hand, failing to do that would mean that we're likely to just keep yo-yoing (at best).

Therefore, my view is that some of the current squad aren't up to one or both of the above criteria and need to be replaced now by younger/more athletic players who might also stand a chance of being able to be effective in the same system in the Premier League.

If people think that's going to be too much of a rebuild, my response would be to ask when exactly would be a good time to do it?

Your analysis implies that we need to replace most of the team to survive in the EPL which may be true.
The best chance of avoiding going up and them immediately down is, IMO, to build over more than one year because we cannot afford to replace so many players with those of EPL quality in one year.

If you're hoping that there's someone, somewhere who is willing to 'show ambition'  forget it.  Immediate gratification is off the menu.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on July 04, 2021, 02:10:17 PM
Your analysis implies that we need to replace most of the team to survive in the EPL which may be true.
The best chance of avoiding going up and them immediately down is, IMO, to build over more than one year because we cannot afford to replace so many players with those of EPL quality in one year.

If you're hoping that there's someone, somewhere who is willing to 'show ambition'  forget it.  Immediate gratification is off the menu.
Good post. Another concern of mine is that some of the group, namely Snodgrass, Phillips, Livermore , Sawyers, Zohore, and possibly more, will be unable to meet the fitness criteria that VI will demand.
We are unlikely to be able to recruit players of Premier League potential to replace them or even move them on until their contracts expire.
This may be the reason for the 4 year contract, i.e 2 years maximum to attain promotion, and 1-3 years in the Premier League to facilitate a sale.
With all due respect to Luke Dowling, I can see why he did not think that VI was a good fit for our current squad and an early return to the Prem.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on July 04, 2021, 02:12:02 PM
The best chance of avoiding going up and them immediately down is, IMO, to build over more than one year because we cannot afford to replace so many players with those of EPL quality in one year.
That's what I'm saying really, but we also need to take into account when players' contracts are expiring as a factor in driving what we do and when. Most posters probably agree on which of our players aren't good enough for the Premier League (and which of them nearly bottled it in our previous promotion season), so I just think we need to try to move on more of those players (I accept not all) this close season than Standaman seems to be suggesting we should.

At the front of the queue for moving out now should be players out of contract at the end of the coming season who we won't/shouldn't give a new contract to. If you look at Standaman's helpful summary, there are arguably 5 of them where that's the case, and I think we should be looking to move on 2 or 3 of those now. It's not easy in the circumstances, but we've made our own bed to lie in by not bringing in a new manager until the end of June and no longer having a DoF!

Looking beyond players who are out of contract in 2022, by way of an example, targeted long passing can easily switch to become aimless hoofing dependent on the passing ability of the centre-backs (the long balls won't just come from them, but I don't want to complicate the point). Aimless hoofing understandably doesn't go down well with many Albion fans, but how many of our current centre-backs are capable of more targeted accuracy? Without being an expert on Valerien's style of play, I suspect this level of accuracy is key to the degree of success of his strategy.
Stating the obvious though you do need other clubs to be interested in signing someone before you offload. I don't think we'd be looking at buying out contracts.
I agree that there needs to be a buyer for them (or at least someone who'll pay their wages for a season-long loan), but maybe clubs operating a different playing style to us can find a use for them if they know they're available?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 04, 2021, 03:29:13 PM
The basis of my analysis is that the players under contract are those the Head Coach has to work with and in the absence of an alternative are the default.

The first step is pure numbers i.e. we have 19 and we need something like 24 and therefore there are gaps and they will be filled either through promotion to first team squad or recruitment. The priorities are where there does not seem to be a body at all.

We have a new Head Coach so we have no track record of his team selections however we do know his style and preferred shape. We roughly know what attributes the players have but only at a very basic level e.g. position, favoured foot etc. However I don't have anything other than players age and injury record to suggest whether or not they have the necessary base level of fitness  to adapt to the new style of play. I have absolutely nothing that gives me any insight to their "attitude".

At this point Ismael is running the rule over what he has inherited he will no doubt work through what is needed but I wouldn't assume any player is beyond the pale. 

In general we can't recruit Premier League quality players in the Championship the absolute best we can hope for is picking up players who might step up if we are promoted. We will always be faced with upgrading the squad to some extent on promotion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on July 04, 2021, 03:55:42 PM
However I don't have anything other than players age and injury record to suggest whether or not they have the necessary base level of fitness to adapt to the new style of play. I have absolutely nothing that gives me any insight to their "attitude".
Well, you've seen during games the players who tire quickly, the ones who bottle out of challenges or don't make use of their physical strength, the ones who aren't able/willing to play with a high intensity and the ones who don't track back well. Doesn't that enable you to predict who's unlikely to fit in well with Valerien's style of play?

Regardless of the above, how many of the players who are out of contract in 2022 would you be willing to offer a new contract to? For any that you wouldn't, when would you say the best time to move them on would be?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on July 04, 2021, 05:03:19 PM
Well, you've seen during games the players who tire quickly, the ones who bottle out of challenges or don't make use of their physical strength, the ones who aren't able/willing to play with a high intensity and the ones who don't track back well. Doesn't that enable you to predict who's unlikely to fit in well with Valerien's style of play?

Regardless of the above, how many of the players who are out of contract in 2022 would you be willing to offer a new contract to? For any that you wouldn't, when would you say the best time to move them on would be?

Because of their current wages they will leave on a free at the end of the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on July 04, 2021, 05:24:01 PM
Because of their current wages they will leave on a free at the end of the season.
Them staying for the season, possibly putting a spanner in the works by doing so, might make the difference between us getting promoted or not getting promoted.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 04, 2021, 05:39:13 PM
Of those out of contract in 2022 Johnstone is likely to be sold of the rest at this point only Bartley looks like a starter and as back up options they are probably okay. It would seem unlikely they can be easily moved on as they won't be sold up the pyramid and there is no money down the pyramid.

The 6 or so that are out of contract are next summer's turnover.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on July 04, 2021, 06:42:08 PM
Snodgrass, Phillips, Livermore , Sawyers, Zohore are the players mentioned more than once who are likely to be unable to hack it under Ismael. This may turn out to be the case of course but we can't say with certainty how they will go under Ismael who'll be a new voice in their ear
Livermore and Sawyers were noticeably fitter at the start of the Bilic reign than they were at the end of it (applies to many others). They may just surprise a few this year. Phillips was definitely a lot fitter after a couple of months of Allardyce (as was Pereira) and was lasting 90 minutes well.

I know the toughness of the training regime is going to be ramped up several levels this pre season but I wouldn't rule anyone out of being someone that Ismael will consider.
Snodgrass, obvious questions about his body holding up.
Zohore...we'll see  ::)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 04, 2021, 09:07:51 PM
Well, you've seen during games the players who tire quickly, the ones who bottle out of challenges or don't make use of their physical strength, the ones who aren't able/willing to play with a high intensity and the ones who don't track back well. Doesn't that enable you to predict who's unlikely to fit in well with Valerien's style of play?

All well and good, but I hope we are not going to overlook the factors skill and ability to control and recycle the ball efficiently.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on July 05, 2021, 07:10:32 AM
All well and good, but I hope we are not going to overlook the factors skill and ability to control and recycle the ball efficiently.

In an alternate universe on a planet far far away a couple of our players have read the second part of your post and broken out into a cold sweat........ allegedly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Smethwickender93 on July 08, 2021, 11:22:15 AM
GK ???

CB Ajayi
CB Bartley
CB O'Shea

RWB. Furlong
LWB   Townsend

CM Mowatt
CM Chalobah

RW Robinson
ST Grant
LW Diangana

Presuming SJ and MP move on. If Chalobah is confirmed and with a couple more additions that is not a bad starting 11 for the Championship. Still think we need another CB and ST.

Looking forward to next season!!



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on July 08, 2021, 12:54:49 PM
Not too shabby at all Smethwick, as you say. We still need to add strength in numbers of course.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 14, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
Updated to reflect the arrival of Matt Clarke and Kyle Bartley being one year older                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                           GK
                                                               Johnstone  (28, 2022 )
                                                               Palmer     (24,2023)
                                                               Button     (31, 2022)                                                                                                                         
                                           
                                             CB                               CB                                 CB                                                               
                                   O'Shea (22, 2023)             Bartley (30, 2022)         Clarke (24, 2022)     
                                   Kipre   (24,2024)               Ajayi (27,2023) 

           RWB                                       CM                                        CM                                  LWB                                               
     Furlong (25, 2023)           Livermore  (31,2022)                    Mowatt (26,2024)           Townsend (28, 2024)
     Phillips   (30 ,2022)          Sawyers  (29,2022)
                                     
                                                                                             
                        RWF                                                 CF                                                LWF
               Pereira   (25, 2024 )                          Zohore  (27 2023)                   Robinson (26, 2025)
               Diangana (23, 2025)                                                                       Grant     (23, 2026)                     
               Snodgrass (33, 2022)   


With Clarke's arrival we now have a serviceable back line. We also can field an XI all of whom have more than 100 senior appearances yet not a single player would be over 30.

We are still short of 4 players two of whom would be starters one in Central Midfield and one up front.

This is very much a snapshot of where we are obviously if players leave they will need to be replaced. At the moment there is speculation around Johnstone, Pereira and Bartley but as far as I'm aware no concrete offers. (Where are all those super efficient clubs that get all their business done early when you need them?)

The players that are in the squad are the default. It seems to me that we will definitely be promoting at least two of the under 23 players or maybe even the under 18's into the squad as rotation options. The forthcoming friendlies might give us an indication as to who has impressed Ismael in the last couple of weeks.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on July 14, 2021, 09:33:21 AM
Depending on how good the kids are W/B / F/B look to be where we need to strengthen next particularly left side where we have little or no cover for Townsend
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on July 19, 2021, 09:25:34 AM
Just a thought
Does it matter if the opposition know how we will set up etc?
I mean they will know to expect this high press game that our new coach favours
I am a fan of the  high press but this does mean that we will be reliant on the strength of our squad because they will be called on especially our midfield and front players later in the game
Isn't the element of surprise gone these days and are we reliant on our players to be simply just better/ cleverer players than our opposition?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 19, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
Just a thought
Does it matter if the opposition know how we will set up etc?
I mean they will know to expect this high press game that our new coach favours
I am a fan of the  high press but this does mean that we will be reliant on the strength of our squad because they will be called on especially our midfield and front players later in the game
Isn't the element of surprise gone these days and are we reliant on our players to be simply just better/ cleverer players than our opposition?

The use of tools like WyScout mean that you can access pretty much any match by an opposition that we are likely to come up against.

Does that mean that there is no longer an element of surprise? I'd argue no. Every player is different, with different skills and temperament, so line up changes can still have a big impact on how the same formation and system can play out, e.g. a right footed right winger Vs a left footed one. Or even if you had Aaron Lennon on the right Vs David Beckham, both right footed wingers but they will play that position differently.

Then you also have to consider if there is enough time to a) create a detailed scouting report, and b) put plans into place to do something about it. If you have a 2 day turnaround over Christmas, the best you might be able to do is get the players together in a room and show them some video footage, whereas if you have a week you can actually get on the training pitch and work things through practically.

And then there is also what I'm going to call the pride of the coach. Some coaches won't change their style or system because they believe that it is the only way to play, and it's ultimately up to the opposition to stop them.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 19, 2021, 10:28:41 AM
Is wyscout free Mark? I've heard you need a subscription?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 19, 2021, 01:06:06 PM
Is wyscout free Mark? I've heard you need a subscription?

Yeah it starts at €250 a month according to their website.

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, I was talking specifically about clubs being able to surprise opposition, rather than fans seeing novel systems for the first time.

Edit: looks like you can get a free 15 day trial
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 19, 2021, 01:10:11 PM
No I understood that, I just wondered how you get access to it, loads of football types on twitter use it (amongst others) but ad you day, it seems pricey unless you are earning money back in some way off it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 19, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
I have used a system called Hudl before for basketball, which is actually part of the same company. But that was the very basic package
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 20, 2021, 01:26:05 PM
I think Matt Phillips could play an important part in our tactical setup. Hopefully he will carry on from where he left off last season. I still think we need an extra forward, but Phillips is fairly clinical inside the box. I think playing him more central suits him better than as a traditional winger.  According to one report I read, he was playing central up front v Woking so maybe VI is considering using him there. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on July 21, 2021, 06:33:00 AM
Well after a promising start with incomings we seem to have hit a crossroads.
Plenty of rumours, most without foundation.
I assume the sticking point is now we have to get players out before we any more incomings.
If it's true that Johnstone. Pereira and Bartley are off, I expect that we need the money from those sales to let the manager do what he has to.
Just all a bit claggy for me at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on July 21, 2021, 06:52:21 AM
Well after a promising start with incomings we seem to have hit a crossroads.
Plenty of rumours, most without foundation.
I assume the sticking point is now we have to get players out before we any more incomings.
If it's true that Johnstone. Pereira and Bartley are off, I expect that we need the money from those sales to let the manager do what he has to.
Just all a bit claggy for me at the moment.

All heading quite nicely to a last day of the transfer market trolley dash, as usual......
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on July 21, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I note HRK still doesnt have a club, (just saying)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on July 21, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
I note HRK still doesnt have a club, (just saying)

Shhh, don't let the club know
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 21, 2021, 10:23:59 AM
Plainly before significant fees are spent the futures of at least one of Johnstone and Pereira needs to be resolved.

I still think Chalobah remains a possibility and although reported that there was little or no fee involved that has never entirely rung true. In any event I don't think we will recruit more than 3 additions with the balance of the squad being promoted from the under 23's.

I think we can pencil Castro as depth option along with Ingram at Right Wing Back and Phillips at Centre Forward although he has started in that role in both pre-season kickabouts. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 21, 2021, 07:42:05 PM
Only a small update really, but in the E&S podcast, it's been suggested to Masi that Gardner-Hickman is likely going to be the back up to Townsend. From whay I can gather, he is a right wing back so I was a bit surprised by that but those who have watched the Woking gane might be able to confirm which side he played.

I took that to mean we might dip into the market for the wing back on the other side - I do personally think we would be making a mistake if we didn't bring in atleast 1 new wing back this summer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on July 21, 2021, 11:35:42 PM
Only a small update really, but in the E&S podcast, it's been suggested to Masi that Gardner-Hickman is likely going to be the back up to Townsend. From whay I can gather, he is a right wing back so I was a bit surprised by that but those who have watched the Woking gane might be able to confirm which side he played.

I took that to mean we might dip into the market for the wing back on the other side - I do personally think we would be making a mistake if we didn't bring in atleast 1 new wing back this summer.

He played on the left against Woking and was very lively indeed. One of the 2 top young lads on the pitch for me.

Very direct and liked to run at people.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 02, 2021, 06:44:56 PM
Updated this for the signing of Reach. Moved Phillips to CF will fill in the Under 23's when we see who makes the squad on Friday. Also taken out Pereira given it is fairly clear he won't feature.
Thanks for the update. I don't regard Phillips as a CF in a month of Sundays, so it shows what a paucity of options we have there currently. For a 46 match, gegenpressing season I would say that we need cover in every position. On that basis, we still need 1 x CB, 1 x RWB, at least 1 x CM and 2 x CF. Some of these gaps will be filled from the youth squad, no doubt Castro being one of them. If we go with a 25 man squad (which we obviously should), we can add 5 more players, assuming no-one else leaves. Is it restricted 25 in the Championship like it is in the Premier League?

Given that Snodgrass is showing no signs of being available again, it's looking unlikely that we'll be seeing much of him this season, as it's long road from being out for months to being fit enough to play in a gegenpressing style. However, regarding Phillips as a right-sided forward, which is arguably his best position, covers that area for us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 02, 2021, 06:52:43 PM
Snodgrass is due back very soon.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 02, 2021, 07:15:56 PM
Snodgrass is due back very soon.
Even if he is, age isn't in his favour for our style of play anyway - he'll be 34 in September.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 02, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
Even if he is, age isn't in his favour for our style of play anyway - he'll be 34 in September.

True enough but they will drag every last ounce possible out of him from the looks of thing so far.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on August 02, 2021, 07:19:59 PM
Great post Stan, even despite the formatting  :D

We are a couple of positions light - we need:
- a centre forward
- a central midfielder
- right back/wingback

I’d possibly like another centre half if we’re playing three at the back but I suspect that will be unlikely.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 02, 2021, 08:27:11 PM
looking at the B'ham highlights, it seems to me that Grant and Robinson interchange quite a lot, at any time one on the left wing and the other going through the middle.  I think this is good for pulling defences about. Since they both favour (but are not entirely dependent on) the right foot, the addition of Reach on the side seems a good move.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 02, 2021, 09:47:11 PM
Great post Stan, even despite the formatting  :D

We are a couple of positions light - we need:
- a centre forward
- a central midfielder
- right back/wingback

I’d possibly like another centre half if we’re playing three at the back but I suspect that will be unlikely.

It kind of looked okay to me  :D

Yes I agree with that although would hope that we can source defensive cover from the under 23's where there is some decent talent.

Note on Phillips I only put him at CF because of the couple of run outs Ismael gave him there in pre season. It seems more likely to be his role rather than cover at RWB.

I am looking forward to seeing who is in the squad on Friday because until it is competitive game it almost doesn't count.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 02, 2021, 10:05:21 PM
Given everything that’s happened over pre-season, I expect Castro will be part of the first team squad, although Friday might come too soon if he’s recently dislocated a shoulder.

Tulloch I think will go out on loan when we bring a striker in.

Is Gardner-Hickman the right back?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 02, 2021, 10:09:56 PM
Given everything that’s happened over pre-season, I expect Castro will be part of the first team squad, although Friday might come too soon if he’s recently dislocated a shoulder.

Tulloch I think will go out on loan when we bring a striker in.

Is Gardner-Hickman the right back?

Him and Ethan Ingram I believe?! Gardner-Hickman was playing on the left but others have said he’s actually right-footed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 02, 2021, 10:20:11 PM
looking at the B'ham highlights, it seems to me that Grant and Robinson interchange quite a lot, at any time one on the left wing and the other going through the middle.  I think this is good for pulling defences about. Since they both favour (but are not entirely dependent on) the right foot, the addition of Reach on the side seems a good move.
From what I can recall of the analyses of Valerien's tactics (links for which were posted right at the outset), he likes the 3 forwards to play narrow to draw defenders in and create more space for the marauding wing-backs. For those 3 forwards to then interchange positions with each other seems like a logical extension of that, as it gives them the best chance of making space for themselves, as well as causing confusion in the opposing defence.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 02, 2021, 10:49:05 PM
From what I can recall of the analyses of Valerien's tactics (links for which were posted right at the outset), he likes the 3 forwards to play narrow to draw defenders in and create more space for the marauding wing-backs. For those 3 forwards to then interchange positions with each other seems like a logical extension of that, as it gives them the best chance of making space for themselves, as well as causing confusion in the opposing defence.
Forwards 'playing narrow' is code for bunching together and getting in each others way. You have to play with width to stretch defences.  Maybe the wing backs will provide that, but if you look at good attacking wing backs, they interchange with other wide forwards and create an overlap. Dare I say, Gibbs was good at that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on August 02, 2021, 11:01:33 PM
Him and Ethan Ingram I believe?! Gardner-Hickman was playing on the left but others have said he’s actually right-footed.

This is correct.

I expect Reach will probably be seen as cover for Townsend on the left and Gardner-Hickman or Ingram for Furlong on the right, probably Gardner-Hickman more likely.

I may be wrong but that's how I see it right now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 02, 2021, 11:54:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/VhpLB2n.jpg)

For viewing purposes only... this is Stan's post in an easier format. I tried the BB code but it was a **** show.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on August 02, 2021, 11:57:17 PM
Good crib sheet. We look well stocked in defence and okay out wide given O'Shea or Matt Phillips can cover RWB for Furlong. Front three first choice look dangerous with plenty of rotation from the bench. Need to add Tulloch to the mix as well. Throw in MP I don't see why we would want to sign anyone else, we have enough to beat anybody at this level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 03, 2021, 01:29:58 AM
Good crib sheet. We look well stocked in defence and okay out wide given O'Shea or Matt Phillips can cover RWB for Furlong. Front three first choice look dangerous with plenty of rotation from the bench. Need to add Tulloch to the mix as well. Throw in MP I don't see why we would want to sign anyone else, we have enough to beat anybody at this level.

We need cm option to further demote livermore to bench. Or at least to have genuine competition. Crying out for centre forward also
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 03, 2021, 09:16:40 AM
I removed my earlier post because it was very obviously a mess but when I posted it looked not dissimilar to Jacko's repost and still does when I log on. Anybody got any idea why this might be the case? I have never figured out how to insert images into posts tips anyone?   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on August 03, 2021, 09:22:24 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/VhpLB2n.jpg)

For viewing purposes only... this is Stan's post in an easier format. I tried the BB code but it was a **** show.

So from that we can see that we're crying out for another central midfielder and a striker and we should take what we can get for Johnstone and Pereira to generate the funds.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 03, 2021, 09:29:53 AM
I removed my earlier post because it was very obviously a mess but when I posted it looked not dissimilar to Jacko's repost and still does when I log on. Anybody got any idea why this might be the case? I have never figured out how to insert images into posts tips anyone?
It looked OK to me in Firefox, but obviously not to everyone. I've never used it, but below the composition window when you're typing a message, there's "Attachments and other options", which you can open up. It looks like this allows you to attach an image or other file to your post, but it has a severe restriction of having a maximum size of 128kb. A simple Word document containing a table should be small enough, which I'm assuming is what Jacko posted, although it seems to display it like a sheet of A4!

Alternatively you could structure your squad tracker using the Insert Table facility in the message composition window, although the HTML interface for this isn't very intuitive if you're not familiar with it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 03, 2021, 09:30:52 AM
Stan - i also use Firefox and it looked fine to me FYI.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on August 03, 2021, 09:35:44 AM
I removed my earlier post because it was very obviously a mess but when I posted it looked not dissimilar to Jacko's repost and still does when I log on. Anybody got any idea why this might be the case? I have never figured out how to insert images into posts tips anyone?   

It's mainly due to if you're viewing on a phone or PC. I view on my phone 95% of the time. Sometimes I'll load it in landscape view and it's better, but not always.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 03, 2021, 11:19:57 AM
It's mainly due to if you're viewing on a phone or PC. I view on my phone 95% of the time. Sometimes I'll load it in landscape view and it's better, but not always.

Yup, it was fine for me on desktop but on my phone - not so good but i was still able to get the jist of it and appreciate your efforts Standaman  :)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 03, 2021, 11:56:05 AM
It looked OK to me in Firefox, but obviously not to everyone. I've never used it, but below the composition window when you're typing a message, there's "Attachments and other options", which you can open up. It looks like this allows you to attach an image or other file to your post, but it has a severe restriction of having a maximum size of 128kb. A simple Word document containing a table should be small enough, which I'm assuming is what Jacko posted, although it seems to display it like a sheet of A4!

Alternatively you could structure your squad tracker using the Insert Table facility in the message composition window, although the HTML interface for this isn't very intuitive if you're not familiar with it.

Clumsily, that is an excel spreadsheet, copied into publisher, saved as a jpg and posted as a picture, linked from imgur...  ;D

And yes I could probably have cropped it more.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on August 03, 2021, 01:16:50 PM
We need cm option to further demote livermore to bench. Or at least to have genuine competition. Crying out for centre forward also

Quevin Moises Castro to compete for a central midfield role although Livermore is good enough at this level, done it before. We are already well stocked upfront with Grady, Robinson and Grant along with Zohore and Tulloch to come off the bench.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on August 03, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
Quevin Moises Castro to compete for a central midfield role although Livermore is good enough at this level, done it before. We are already well stocked upfront with Grady, Robinson and Grant along with Zohore and Tulloch to come off the bench.

Not much wrong with our first 11 and do have a few options of the bench but for a 46 game league season we need more depth to the squad, I would say at least another 4 in to improve the squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 03, 2021, 01:45:26 PM

Link to the Google Doc for up to date squad list in 3-4-3

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing)


Would agree a little short in Central Mid and up front. Will update based on Friday's squad. But it is only a couple of spots the debate is how we fill them to get good quality on permanent contracts obviously we need to shift Pereira or Johnstone.   








Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 03, 2021, 01:55:36 PM
Link to the Google Doc for up to date squad list in 3-4-3

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing)


Would agree a little short in Central Mid and up front. Will update based on Friday's squad. But it is only a couple of spots the debate is how we fill them to get good quality on permanent contracts obviously we need to shift Pereira or Johnstone.   

I think Johnston stays, gets re-integrated
MP will go now, for what we consider a paltry sum at the very last knockings of the window.
We utilise Loans to fill gaps / provide depth.

Based on nothing more than gut instinct and my memories of previous windows.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on August 03, 2021, 02:09:11 PM
Link to the Google Doc for up to date squad list in 3-4-3

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=sharing)


Would agree a little short in Central Mid and up front. Will update based on Friday's squad. But it is only a couple of spots the debate is how we fill them to get good quality on permanent contracts obviously we need to shift Pereira or Johnstone.   
Think Tulloch and Castro will be in and around so, technically, RWB is the stand out weakness, but, agree we need to improve on Livermore / Sawyers (Been saying that for how long now???) and definitely a first choice striker (although, I will go out on a limb and say that, should Zohore stay, he will hit 10+)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on August 03, 2021, 02:27:33 PM
Think Tulloch and Castro will be in and around so, technically, RWB is the stand out weakness, but, agree we need to improve on Livermore / Sawyers (Been saying that for how long now???) and definitely a first choice striker (although, I will go out on a limb and say that, should Zohore stay, he will hit 10+)

Let's get something clear. There are no wing backs either RWB or LWB they are wide midfielders in this 343 system. We need to educate ourselves. Football is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

We need a central striker as a matter of urgency.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 03, 2021, 02:38:03 PM
It seems that in VI's system we rely alot on the wing backs to create the chances. All well and good, but we also need someone able to thread through passes through from central midfield.
I haven't yet seen Mowatt in action yet, and maybe he's the guy that can deliver these, but if not, who've we got? Certainly not Livermore. I've been watching him for several years now and he just doesn't spot the 5 to 15 metre passes which put players into shooting positions. That and his touch is too heavy. Sawyers has a good passing technique, but there is little or no risk with his passes. Just playing it 4-5 metres sideways doesn't set up goal chances.
Of course we have one player on our books who plays this role perfectly, MP. That's why if he leaves, its vital the club brings in someone extra into midfield, who can spot and deliver through passes, so we don't just have to rely on the wing backs.     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on August 03, 2021, 02:45:22 PM
Let's get something clear. There are no wing backs either RWB or LWB they are wide midfielders in this 343 system. We need to educate ourselves. Football is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

We need a central striker as a matter of urgency.
Seems we don't need to educate "ourselves" as we have you!  :)

Please enlighten me.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 03, 2021, 02:56:19 PM
Let's get something clear. There are no wing backs either RWB or LWB they are wide midfielders in this 343 system. We need to educate ourselves. Football is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

We need a central striker as a matter of urgency.

I disagree, I think they will be wingback. If not then Townsend and Furlong need replacing as neither are wide midfielders.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBArgo on August 03, 2021, 03:00:28 PM
I forgot we had Snodgrass. Before his injury he did quite well for us. I think he has one last decent season in him at his age, if he stays fit then hopefully he will do well. Definitely one who will run through walls for you.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 03, 2021, 03:10:54 PM
I'm comfortable with the phrase Wing Back. Designates a player that plays down the wide channel with no other player directly ahead of them nor behind them. My view is a winger/wide midfielder plays in conjunction with a full back.

.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on August 03, 2021, 03:13:21 PM
I'm comfortable with the phrase Wing Back. Designates a player that plays down the wide channel with no other player directly ahead of them nor behind them. My view is a winger/wide midfielder plays in conjunction with a full back.

.
Heathen  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 03, 2021, 03:18:36 PM
i quite like the term "footballer' myself,
Far too much focus on systems / roles / statistics / referees / managers nowadays for my liking,

What is wrong with watching 2 teams playing each other and seeing who is better on the day?
If "x" has an off day or his opponent got the better of him so be it, it happens.

Knowing player A completed x% of passes under 10 yards and was mostly in this area of the pitch with so many touches adds naff all to my enjoyment of the game frankly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 03, 2021, 03:59:39 PM
Let's get something clear. There are no wing backs either RWB or LWB they are wide midfielders in this 343 system. We need to educate ourselves. Football is evolving and we need to evolve with it.
Valerien's style of play means that we switch to having 5 at the back at times, so that makes the 2 wide players wing-backs in my book.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on August 03, 2021, 04:04:22 PM
I disagree, I think they will be wingback. If not then Townsend and Furlong need replacing as neither are wide midfielders.

Agree with this.

They will be responsible for covering both the defensive and attacking work on either flank.

They are wing backs. Wide midfielders suggests they have traditional full backs behind them which is not the case.

It’s either that or every Barnsley & Albion fan, pundit, tactical analyst and our coaching staff needs to evolve..

Either way - call them whatever you want - they’re still covering either flank.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 03, 2021, 04:21:40 PM
Let's get something clear. There are no wing backs either RWB or LWB they are wide midfielders in this 343 system. We need to educate ourselves. Football is evolving and we need to evolve with it.

We need a central striker as a matter of urgency.

They are clearly wing backs...

For wide midfielders see Dwight Gayle  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on August 03, 2021, 04:32:40 PM
They are clearly wing backs...

For wide midfielders see Dwight Gayle  ;)
Thats a gud un Jacko
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on August 03, 2021, 04:38:31 PM
To those who think our squad is too weak, bear in mind that: Palmer, Kipre, Ajayi, Reach, Sawyers, Quevin Moises Castro, Snodgrass, Philips, Zohore and Tulloch are our back-up players for the subs bench and reserves. That eleven could do quite well in the championship on their own right and they are second choice as things stand. So we are not as thread bare as a few imply.

I think the key is to rest everyone save the U23s for the league cup and to pray we keep the injuries to a minimal. Remember, we are planning on how we deal with the games from this weekend coming to January, not until May. In the new year we get to buy and sell again.

Of course if MP stays and gets brought back into the team from September onwards then we are completely spoilt.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on August 03, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
The first test comes up early
Luton (Sat)
Sheff Utd (Wed)
Blackburn (Sat)

I think we will have a few needing a breather!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 03, 2021, 05:08:40 PM
The first test comes up early
Luton (Sat)
Sheff Utd (Wed)
Blackburn (Sat)

I think we will have a few needing a breather!

I think we get a slight early advantage that Luton play in the EFL cup on the Tuesday, whereas we will get an extra week on the training ground.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on August 03, 2021, 05:29:47 PM
If we want to get really technical, we could say that positions are really outdated and over-simplified ways of putting players on a piece of paper, and no two players will play the same way even whilst playing in the same position. A good example of this is the fact that Billy Jones and Criag Dawson both played right back for us, but obviously have different sets of skills and will therefore accomplish different things if played there.

Equally, formations are fluid and change depending on who has the ball, and what state the match is in. If a deep lying midfielder goes between the centre backs to collect the ball, are they then a centre back? Most would answer no.

The problem is that if I'm trying to talk about a player, it's difficult to have a conversation if I don't use familiar terms.

To that end, I think wing back is a good enough term here. Furlong and Townsend will be asked to provide width when attacking, and defend the widest channel when we're in the defensive phase (transition may well be different).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on August 03, 2021, 10:34:55 PM
If we want to get really technical, we could say that positions are really outdated and over-simplified ways of putting players on a piece of paper,

I dont disagree with that. I certainly think the modern game has evolved enough to outdate terms like wingers and to an extent Full backs, wing backs, CB's, especially in a 343.

Furlong and Townsends starting positions will be no deeper than Mowatt or Livermore's. The three lads at the back are there to do the defending but the wider two are off central and are best referred to as defenders.

Grant and Diangana arent wingers they are forwards.

Basically you have defenders (3) CM's (2), wide mids (2) and forwards (3). Hence 343.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 07, 2021, 08:51:10 AM
Squad

Updated https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit

From last night's inclusions will do so again for any inclusions against Luton. I have also included a flag on the contracts and age of player. Green = Peak age (under 35 for keepers, under 30 for CB's and under 28 for all other outfield players) with a contract that expires while the player is still. Amber = currently peak age but contract expires post peak) Red = Post Peak.

Generally a good squad has the bulk of the players in Green some Amber and no more than 3 in the red but if the Red's are on short term contracts this is generally okay. While this would have looked a lot worse a few years ago it still isn't great and the last round of contract extensions have made it worse.

We probably need an additional Centre Back ideally left footed but it is cover. Clarke's absence resulted in everyone shuffling across and Kipre filling in. Would be a lot happier to see Bartley centrally and O'Shea on the right and left footed replacement on the left. The only starter hire is Centre Forward.

System

3-4-3 don't think it is going to change ever. The flaw defensively is the space behind the wing backs both goals came from that area of the pitch and Bournemouth tried to exploit it endlessly but generally didn't and gave us the ball a lot in trying to do so.

Tactics

It combines intense pressing with a great deal of verticality. The ball nearly always goes forwards and on the evidence of last night that is at the expense of quality in possession. I think post match that commented that the quality on the ball had to improve and times the players were too frenetic.

The press was generally on paper Bournemouth are one of the best equipped teams to play through the press by and large they were reduced to playing long balls over the press.

I think we can see a clear pattern of play a reasonably well formed first XI there won't be masses of chopping and changing. 



 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 07, 2021, 10:27:49 AM
We probably need an additional Centre Back ideally left footed but it is cover. Clarke's absence resulted in everyone shuffling across and Kipre filling in. Would be a lot happier to see Bartley centrally and O'Shea on the right and left footed replacement on the left. The only starter hire is Centre Forward.
I disagree with deliberately signing cover as a general strategy because the squad doesn't improve in quality if you keep doing that. In addition to the positions you've mentioned, I believe we definitely need another central midfielder plus a second forward of some kind. Anyone who leaves will also need to be replaced. What funds are available remains to be seen of course.

I think we can see a clear pattern of play a reasonably well formed first XI there won't be masses of chopping and changing.
I think that would require great levels of fitness for what's going to be a gruelling season. Barnsley were able to have 5 subs last season (not sure if this was the case for the entire season?), but we'll only be able to use 3. Therefore, I suspect there will need to be more in the way of squad rotation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 07, 2021, 01:44:20 PM
As ever I'm looking at

a)  What the Coach is doing/saying
b)  What is likely to happen

There is a clear first choice in place in most spots maybe 9/11. There will be in rotation through games less in the starting spots. The squad won't be much bigger than the current 24/25.

Personally I would never sign depth signings but we have already had that conversation concerning promoting Under 23's and I know I am on a completely different page to most posters. However I suspect Ismael does not look at the current squad in the  negative light that most fans regard it.

I doubt we will be making more than 2 or 3 signings between now and the end of the window. The one player that might move is Sawyers but I absolutely don't think there is any market for or any desire on the part of the club to do much trading. 



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 08, 2021, 03:46:20 PM
The way we are setting up to play, I think we have to be prepared for a fair number of goals conceded this season. Yes, we can always tighten up, but if the team is moving up and down the pitch, its going to be easier for opponents to find gaps. Playing the Pulis way meant defenders hold their deep defensive positions in numbers, but as we know, that goes at the expense of support for our forward(s). It also has a similar entertainment value to watching paint dry. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 08, 2021, 03:53:29 PM
The way we are setting up to play, I think we have to be prepared for a fair number of goals conceded this season. Yes, we can always tighten up, but if the team is moving up and down the pitch, its going to be easier for opponents to find gaps.
The most relevant statistic we can look at in this regard is Barnsley last season. After Valerien joined them they played 40 games, winning 23 of them and conceding 41 goals. Not at all bad defensively in other words.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on August 08, 2021, 03:54:01 PM
The way are setting up to play, I think we have to be prepared for a fair number of goals conceded this season. Yes, we can always tighten up, but if the team is moving up and down the pitch, its going to be easier for opponents to find gaps.

Only 7 sides conceded fewer goals than Barnsley last season - four of those 7 finished directly above Barnsley

Only 7 sides scored more than Barnsley last season - 3 of those sides finished directly above them.

I would like o think our front three will have a relatively successful season as I think they suit this way of playing.

I do accept that there will be gaps in behind but the record at Barnsley was defensively very good - not sure whether our centre halves suit this way of playing but time will soon tell.

You are correct though - supporters will need to be patient.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on August 08, 2021, 04:00:15 PM
Seems to me with our new set up that we're open to a ball over the top so we need fast back 3 and a fast moving gk
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 08, 2021, 04:08:22 PM
Seems to me with our new set up that we're open to a ball over the top so we need fast back 3 and a fast moving gk
Absolutely. The back 3 need to get back very fast into position.  But my point is, its much easier to mark opposition when you are waiting for them than when you are chasing back at full speed.
That said, I wouldn't want to go back to Pulis football in a million years.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 09, 2021, 09:32:01 AM
As ever I'm looking at

a)  What the Coach is doing/saying
b)  What is likely to happen

There is a clear first choice in place in most spots maybe 9/11. There will be in rotation through games less in the starting spots. The squad won't be much bigger than the current 24/25.
Going by the document that you're usefully maintaining, the squad currently consists of 22 players and that's because you've recently added Ingram and Tulloch to it, both of whom are unproven at any level, and 3 goalkeepers. An E&S article (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/08/09/valerien-ismael-ready-to-ring-changes-for-west-broms-season/) published today is interesting in this regard:

"Last season all EFL clubs were allowed to make five substitutions in a game – a rule that was brought in following the Covid-enforced break. Ismael utilised that rule while in charge of Barnsley with the boss regularly making five changes in a game and often switching all three of his front players. Now, though, the five substitutions rule has been scrapped with the English Football League returning to the traditional three. And Ismael says that means players will need to be rotated if they are to cope with the demands of his high-pressing game:

'We need to manage it differently. This isn’t last season, last season there were 20 players in the squad and five substitutes – it was easier for me to have that rotation and to keep the pace high. This season we need to manage it game to game, maybe to rotate some players, especially when you play Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday.

We will see, but we’ll need every player and it’s important that every player stays focused, waits on his chance and, when it comes, gives 100 per cent
'".

As Valerien has repeatedly said that having one player misfiring undermines his entire style of play, our squad needs to have proper, quality depth to it IMO. We're also going to have players either having Covid or self-isolating at times of course.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 09, 2021, 11:07:01 AM
I didnt realise we only named 6 subs until I read it in another post.

We are very light on the ground. If we attempt to get through to January as we are, I think we will regret it.

I think we need a centre mid and a striker minimum.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on August 09, 2021, 11:24:26 AM
I didnt realise we only named 6 subs until I read it in another post.

We are very light on the ground. If we attempt to get through to January as we are, I think we will regret it.

I think we need a centre mid and a striker minimum.

don't forget we had Clarke, Snodgrass, Reach, De Castro and Gardner- Hicks all unavailable who would have added to bench if not started.

We do need a goalscoring centre forward though....and an upgrade on Livermore would be good.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 09, 2021, 11:39:41 AM
don't forget we had Clarke, Snodgrass, Reach, De Castro and Gardner- Hicks all unavailable who would have added to bench if not started.

We do need a goalscoring centre forward though....and an upgrade on Livermore would be good.

I had forgotten about Snodgrass. Castro, Gardner Hicks, Ingram and Tulloch should be the players supplementing the 18 though in my opinion, not those who have to fill the match day squad everyweek.

People seem in agreement on the striker at least, but we look like we are going to have a massive reliance on Mowatt, not just as a starter but to adhere to the tactical blue print.  Castro may be the answer, but its a lot to ask a guy whos never played competitively league football to step in to such an important position and show the consistency we will need.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on August 09, 2021, 11:55:19 AM
As I said in the matchday thread, Bournemouth were very clearly rattled by our tactics and at times had to abandon their own plans in order to counter the constant pressure on their midfield and back 3/4   
They clearly knew what VI was going to send us out to do and probably planned accordingly but even so the Baggies intensity, at times, lead to many moments of panic in the Bournemouth ranks and which then led to them resorting to aimlessly lobbing the ball forward just to relieve the pressure
Bring more of it on I say and trust in VI and the players to have the fitness levels necessary sorted
The midweek game against Sheffield after the Luton game will be the telling one that informs us about his possible rotational plans and players up to (or not) a couple of high intensity games a week
COYB
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 09, 2021, 11:59:16 AM
As I said in the matchday thread, Bournemouth were very clearly rattled by our tactics and at times had to abandon their own plans in order to counter the constant pressure on their midfield and back 3/4   
They clearly knew what VI was going to send us out to do and probably planned accordingly but even so the Baggies intensity, at times, lead to many moments of panic in the Bournemouth ranks and which then led to them resorting to aimlessly lobbing the ball forward just to relieve the pressure
Bring more of it on I say and trust in VI and the players to have the fitness levels necessary sorted
The midweek game against Sheffield after the Luton game will be the telling one that informs us about his possible rotational plans and players up to (or not) a couple of high intensity games a week
COYB

I Hope our physios / fitness and analysis teams are upto it as well, they will need to anticipate potential issues before they happen.
Its also pretty clear that IV will have to compromise somewhat as he cannot utilise 5 subs as he did at Barnsley. Quite how this compromise manifests itself will be interesting to see.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on August 09, 2021, 12:29:03 PM
Unless we bring in another 3/4 players then I fear we may end up like Leeds and run out of steam. Val talks about rotation but we have very little to rotate with at the moment!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on August 09, 2021, 01:08:42 PM
Unless we bring in another 3/4 players then I fear we may end up like Leeds and run out of steam. Val talks about rotation but we have very little to rotate with at the moment!
With the size of our squad the only rotation we'll get is if we sit them all on swivel chairs on the goal line.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Jeremy Roland Peace on August 09, 2021, 01:12:04 PM
As I said in the matchday thread, Bournemouth were very clearly rattled by our tactics and at times had to abandon their own plans in order to counter the constant pressure on their midfield and back 3/4   
They clearly knew what VI was going to send us out to do and probably planned accordingly but even so the Baggies intensity, at times, lead to many moments of panic in the Bournemouth ranks and which then led to them resorting to aimlessly lobbing the ball forward just to relieve the pressure
Bring more of it on I say and trust in VI and the players to have the fitness levels necessary sorted
The midweek game against Sheffield after the Luton game will be the telling one that informs us about his possible rotational plans and players up to (or not) a couple of high intensity games a week
COYB

totally agree with this, bournemouth had a spell after they scored where our intensity dropped a little and they were able to play their game.

once our heads were up again we straight back at them.

only way i could describe our style at one point was harassment, it unsettled the bournemouth back line. watching some games over the weekend those teams that like to play it out from the back or across the back will be in for a rough time against us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 09, 2021, 02:54:37 PM
We're a serious injury to Mowatt away from this whole thing falling apart. We need another central midfielder,  imo before anything else.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on August 09, 2021, 03:10:58 PM
We're a serious injury to Mowatt away from this whole thing falling apart. We need another central midfielder,  imo before anything else.

A CM is vital. We need an upgrade on Livermore anyway, but we are very light in that area (Snodgrass and Reach could step in I guess) ...even more so if Sawyers goes to Stoke.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 09, 2021, 05:07:33 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see Snodgrass being used centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 09, 2021, 08:11:43 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to see Snodgrass being used centrally.

Well at least he has some technical ability... all i know is we need numbers as playing this way suspensions and injuries will soon add up
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wappingbaggie on August 20, 2021, 10:32:45 AM
Loving the press style so far, looks like players do too....but 2 notes of caution

1. 46  games like that will. Take its toll...I feel we need 5 extra players in squad

2. It may well get us up but I doubt it will keep us up....prem teams have 11 players very comfortable to quickly control a ball and pass...most prem teams will adapt and pick us off

And nothing like pulisball! Barworkrate and long throws
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jamesh_91 on August 20, 2021, 10:55:22 AM
Let’s take a granular look at our squad and it’s clear we need additions:

GK - Johnstone, Button, Palmer

No issues here at current. If Palmer goes on loan then a keeper would need to come in to replace.

CB - Clarke, Bartley, Ajayi, Kipre, O’Shea

We can probably make do with this but I’d prefer one more CB if the budget allows. This is mainly based off the fact I don’t trust Kipre and Ajayi.

LM - Reach, Townsend, Snodgrass

Sufficient cover.

RM - Furlong, Phillips, Snodgrass

We’re borrowing players from other positions for cover here. This is a worry for me.

CM - Mowatt, Livermore, Snodgrass, Castro

We need another body here because Snodgrass may be required to cover other positions as well at current and he’s no spring chicken. Castro is also unproven at this level. I’d like two but we’re only going to get one.

Wide forwards - Grant, Diangana, Tulloch
Central forwards - CR7, Phillips, Zohore

We probably need one other here. I’d argue the central forward position is well stocked if we’re going to exclusively use Phillips and CR7 centrally. But that means we then need a wide forward. Alternatively, if we’re going to use Phillips/CR7 as a wide forwards we will need a central forward. Definitely an attacker short.

We also need to be conscious that if Phillips is going to be RM cover and we’re only signing one CM we might need to see two attackers come in.

Overall that’s 4/5 players so a fair bit of business to be done. I expect we will end up with 3 players though - one CM, a RM/RW and an attacker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on August 20, 2021, 10:59:47 AM
Let’s take a granular look at our squad and it’s clear we need additions:

GK - Johnstone, Button, Palmer

No issues here at current. If Palmer goes on loan then a keeper would need to come in to replace.

CB - Clarke, Bartley, Ajayi, Kipre, O’Shea

We can probably make do with this but I’d prefer one more CB if the budget allows. This is mainly based off the fact I don’t trust Kipre and Ajayi.

LM - Reach, Townsend, Snodgrass

Sufficient cover.

RM - Furlong, Phillips, Snodgrass

We’re borrowing players from other positions for cover here. This is a worry for me.

CM - Mowatt, Livermore, Snodgrass, Castro

We need another body here because Snodgrass may be required to cover other positions as well at current and he’s no spring chicken. Castro is also unproven at this level. I’d like two but we’re only going to get one.

Wide forwards - Grant, Diangana, Tulloch
Central forwards - CR7, Phillips, Zohore

We probably need one other here. I’d argue the central forward position is well stocked if we’re going to exclusively use Phillips and CR7 centrally. But that means we then need a wide forward. Alternatively, if we’re going to use Phillips/CR7 as a wide forwards we will need a central forward. Definitely an attacker short.

Overall that’s 4/5 players so a fair bit of business to be done.

You are forgetting Gardner-Hickman.

He's making a return for the U23's tonight following injury sustained just prior to the start of the season. I expect he will be in contention as cover for Furlong.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jamesh_91 on August 20, 2021, 11:03:10 AM
You are forgetting Gardner-Hickman.

He's making a return for the U23's tonight following injury sustained just prior to the start of the season. I expect he will be in contention as cover for Furlong.

He looked impressive in pre-season but that was only short cameos. Only Val will know how good he is at this stage but if he’s good enough as cover then that is a great way to save funds and put towards other positions.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on August 20, 2021, 11:12:03 AM
You are forgetting Gardner-Hickman.

He's making a return for the U23's tonight following injury sustained just prior to the start of the season. I expect he will be in contention as cover for Furlong.

Gardner-Hickman tended to replace Townsend in pre season Ingram was used as a replacement for Furlong.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on August 20, 2021, 11:54:22 AM
Gardner-Hickman tended to replace Townsend in pre season Ingram was used as a replacement for Furlong.

Yes but thats because we didnt have any cover for Townsend (presumably). We have Reach now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 20, 2021, 12:05:33 PM
G-H plays on right as standard normally i believe. I would be happ to give him a chance at RWB if not we have Phillips anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 20, 2021, 01:33:16 PM
G-H plays on right as standard normally i believe. I would be happ to give him a chance at RWB if not we have Phillips anyway.
I don't think right wing back is Phillips best position.  He is better when he is given the freedom to take the ball through the middle and get in and around the box, to set up or take shooting opportunities.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 20, 2021, 01:49:44 PM
I don't think right wing back is Phillips best position.  He is better when he is given the freedom to take the ball through the middle and get in and around the box, to set up or take shooting opportunities.
I agree and would add that I don't think he has the energy, stamina or defensive ability to do justice to the requirements of a RWB in Valerien's system. I might be wrong (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am), but I don't think he was tried in that position during the pre-season games.

I think his best position for us with our new style of play would be as a right-sided forward, but I can't ever see him lasting 90 minutes in a league game with our high-pressing game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 20, 2021, 03:28:24 PM
Phillips hasn't got the stamina for 90 minutes of Valerien -style football but I think he has been effective coming into the front 3 after 60-65 mins especially when the opponents themselves are tiring.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 20, 2021, 03:43:04 PM
I don't think right wing back is Phillips best position.  He is better when he is given the freedom to take the ball through the middle and get in and around the box, to set up or take shooting opportunities.

I am not saying it's his best position but he can play there as last resort. Would rather than young lad be given a few games if it's too soon then it's too soon.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 20, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Gardner-Hickman tended to replace Townsend in pre season Ingram was used as a replacement for Furlong.
Gardner-Hickman, Ingram, Snodgradd and Palmer all start for the PL2 side this evening away at Fulham.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on August 20, 2021, 09:18:00 PM
No Castro though, so he will likely be in the match day squad with Tulloch tomorrow. I hope Val shows a bit of faith in them soon.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 20, 2021, 09:50:21 PM
Those advocating for the inclusion of the likes of Gardner-Hickman and Ingram as cover in the first team squad, despite them having no experience at all of playing in a senior competitive game at any level, could be in danger of overstating their ability/potential for playing in a Championship side which is chasing promotion.

My preference would be for strengthening the squad with new players and letting them go out on loan if we think they have some promise. I think anything else would be too much of a risk in the circumstances.

I trust Valerien to do the right thing, if he has the choice come the end of the transfer window, but can't imagine that anyone in the the PL2 side tonight has done much to force their way into his thoughts. I exclude Snodgrass from this, as his inclusion tonight was just to build his fitness.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on August 20, 2021, 10:53:18 PM
Ismael doesn’t want a big squad. Can see a centre forward and centre mid and that’s it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 21, 2021, 09:13:45 AM
Ismael doesn’t want a big squad.
Please could you provide a link to the quote where he said that? I recall he talked about the importance of being able to rotate the players, particularly when there are mid-week games, and he can't do that without having depth in the squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on August 22, 2021, 07:05:26 PM
One thing I dislike about our football seasons, they are constantly interupted by international matches.
However, this season I think it will help us greatly to enable us to recharge our batteries and prepare to go again just my thoughts what do you think?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on August 22, 2021, 07:09:51 PM
One thing I dislike about our football seasons, they are constantly interupted by international matches.
However, this season I think it will help us greatly to enable us to recharge our batteries and prepare to go again just my thoughts what do you think?

Couldn't agree more. We will need any breaks we can get. We're at least 3 players short, when you look at team selection and think aside from maybe the 4 forwards and 5 centre backs he's literally got no ability to rotate.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SirTonyM on August 22, 2021, 07:56:46 PM
Couldn't agree more. We will need any breaks we can get. We're at least 3 players short, when you look at team selection and think aside from maybe the 4 forwards and 5 centre backs he's literally got no ability to rotate.

Agreed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on August 24, 2021, 07:10:42 PM
Matt Clarke out for 6 weeks, 2 other unnamed players have got to self isolate because of Covid and our Colombian striker  target is now going to Russia.  Got to get new signings asap or else our bright start could evaporate quickly .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on August 24, 2021, 09:28:06 PM
Oh kinnell!
Was feeling pretty upbeat and looking forward to the match with interest rather than hope. Now not sure WBA PL2 vs Arsendanall offcuts with us on a hiding to nothing is something I'm all that keen on. Pretty flat at the moment, but hey this is the Albion - should be used to let downs by now- Where's me scotch and doe bother about the glass.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 25, 2021, 10:33:38 PM
It's hard to judge in such a one-sided game, but I don't get the impression that any more than 1 or 2 at best of the young players we saw tonight are likely to be able to contribute much to the first team squad, so I think 4 or 5 signings are still needed:

1 x left-sided CB
1 x RWB as competition for Furlong
2 x CM (I'm not convinced that Castro is going to have the required maturity)
1 x CF (only likely if Zohore leaves)

With a long, hard season, which is going to be made harder by our intense style of play and Covid absences, I don't think we should get into a situation where any player is covering more than one position, as we immediately lose squad depth if he's playing or, worse still, is unavailable. As Valerien has said, his system is only as good as its weakest link.

Although Barnsley did really well last season, I remain to be convinced that Valerien's style of play is one where promotion can be achieved on the cheap and without a proper squad depth so, having made the decision to bring him in and given him a 4 year contract, the Board really has to find a way to properly back him and his methodology if we have pretensions of getting promoted this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 26, 2021, 03:37:36 PM
Shocking window at the moment - symptomatic of the club since Ashworth left - no planning at all
If we do go up, and despite the strong start, I’m not sure that’s a given, how many of the current crop are good enough ?

Johnstone, Furlong, possibly Bartley, Mowatt, possibly Robinson - 5 players - meaning we would need to sign around 10 Prem quality players - at a conservative £10m per player that’s a £100m - never going to happen

Club need to start looking 5 years down the line, rather than just short term loans and stop gaps
Good post blindreferee, I'm replying here as discussions not relating to specific players on the Rumours & Tat thread can sometimes take that thread off on a tangent.

It's worth revisiting what Ken said on the day that Valerien was appointed:

"Success is earned by building on strong foundations, and our plans must now look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected our long-term aspirations.

“We are all aware of what will be required in order to be successful and player recruitment will be of the utmost importance. Valérien and I will immediately focus on preparing the squad for the new season, working together with Ian Pearce, our Head of Recruitment, to secure talented transfer targets who will strengthen us for the challenges ahead, ensuring fans are once more proud to support this great club.
"

I think it's fair to say that what's happened during the transfer window since then doesn't back up what he said. I think the comments he made clearly imply that there would be more transfer activity (and of higher quality players) than there has been so far.

Just over 5 days left for Ken to demonstrate that he's true to his word....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 26, 2021, 04:26:35 PM
I think when Ken talks of "further into the future" and "neglecting our longer term aspirations", he intends more than a couple of seasons away.  This and VI's  contract duration means don't expect to get immediate promotion.  We've seen what happens with that already.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 26, 2021, 04:46:48 PM
Congratulations to both Dara O'Shea and Sam Johnstone following their international call ups. We don't need the squad thinned further by injury, stay safe for yourselves and for us too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 26, 2021, 05:29:05 PM
I think when Ken talks of "further into the future" and "neglecting our longer term aspirations", he intends more than a couple of seasons away.  This and VI's  contract duration means don't expect to get immediate promotion.  We've seen what happens with that already.
Well, if we don't get promoted and having just sold our most valuable asset, one wonders where exactly the money's going to come from down the line to "secure talented transfer targets" that are going to "[ensure] fans are once more proud to support this great club"?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on August 26, 2021, 06:12:33 PM
Val has just made it clear that we still have to sell before we can buy! How can this be so? How many more players can we release? 15 have left not including the academy players. Surely we had a competitive budget. This seems totally ridiculous - we have such a small squad. Why can't we replace some of the players who have left?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 26, 2021, 06:51:14 PM
I think when Ken talks of "further into the future" and "neglecting our longer term aspirations", he intends more than a couple of seasons away.  This and VI's  contract duration means don't expect to get immediate promotion.  We've seen what happens with that already.

Well, if we don't get promoted and having just sold our most valuable asset, one wonders where exactly the money's going to come from down the line to "secure talented transfer targets" that are going to "[ensure] fans are once more proud to support this great club"?

I'm actually agreeing .  Where are the young signings that are going to serve us into the future?  "plan further into the future"  does look a little like manaňa, manaňa/ long grass treatment.  Five days to prove us wrong. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 26, 2021, 07:21:07 PM
I'm actually agreeing.
Oh I know, I wsn't trying to shoot the messenger!  :)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on August 27, 2021, 08:21:50 PM
Strongest XI
                     Johnstone
            O’Shea Bartley Clarke
Furlong Molumby Mowatt Townsend
         Diangana Robinson Grant


Back up XI
                         Button
               Kipre Taylor Ajayi
Ingram Livermore Snodgrass Reach
          Phillips Hugill Tulloch

Don’t think there’s many stronger squads, only Fulham IMO
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on August 27, 2021, 10:50:52 PM
I'm wondering what that first 11 average age is anybody know?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 27, 2021, 11:56:56 PM
Off the top of my head the average age of the first XI posted by Baggie96 would be 25 which is going to be the youngest it's been for a while.

Updated squad list with most recent additions added. I have also put in all the youngsters who featured against Arsenal. These take the squad to 30 in total. There are 21 with at least 50 Senior appearances under their belt and while that leaves 9 rookies bulking out the squad in most instances they are the third choice option.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 28, 2021, 10:38:16 AM
That is an excellent graphic Stan, thanks! The stand out concern there is back up for Furlong, I think OShea can provide defensive cover but we lose a lot offensively if Darnell is out , this needs prioritising imo
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 28, 2021, 11:09:42 AM
Off the top of my head the average age of the first XI posted by Baggie96 would be 25 which is going to be the youngest it's been for a while.

Updated squad list with most recent additions added. I have also put in all the youngsters who featured against Arsenal. These take the squad to 30 in total. There are 21 with at least 50 Senior appearances under their belt and while that leaves 9 rookies bulking out the squad in most instances they are the third choice option.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit

The squad is looking a lot healthier with last week's additions. You would say RWB (though Ingram looked decent going forward) and a first choice striker are now important but can't see anybody coming in unless Zohore goes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 28, 2021, 12:00:34 PM
Off the top of my head the average age of the first XI posted by Baggie96 would be 25 which is going to be the youngest it's been for a while.

Updated squad list with most recent additions added. I have also put in all the youngsters who featured against Arsenal. These take the squad to 30 in total. There are 21 with at least 50 Senior appearances under their belt and while that leaves 9 rookies bulking out the squad in most instances they are the third choice option.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit

Is Fellows missing? He started ahead of Richards so I’d imagine that means he’s ahead in VIs thoughts.

Personally I think the version without all the kids is a better snap shot. It’s unlikely we will see a few of those kids even make the bench again this season let alone play any minutes
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 28, 2021, 02:23:33 PM
I've added Fellows. I pretty sure that there won't be kid armageddon this season but there will be some youngsters being involved in the squad I don't know which ones to date and while the window is still open a few may yet leave on loan will update as we go along. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Skeeny1 on August 28, 2021, 02:32:50 PM
Off the top of my head the average age of the first XI posted by Baggie96 would be 25 which is going to be the youngest it's been for a while.

Updated squad list with most recent additions added. I have also put in all the youngsters who featured against Arsenal. These take the squad to 30 in total. There are 21 with at least 50 Senior appearances under their belt and while that leaves 9 rookies bulking out the squad in most instances they are the third choice option.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit

This is great and good to see our average age looks a lot more youthful than in past years. This is the first time I’ve clocked that Clark is only 24, thought he was pushing 30!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on August 28, 2021, 02:39:32 PM
I've added Fellows. I pretty sure that there won't be kid armageddon this season but there will be some youngsters being involved in the squad I don't know which ones to date and while the window is still open a few may yet leave on loan will update as we go along.

On the early showings/looking at the gaps, I'd say Taylor Gardner-Hickman is in the diving seat after Tulloch, with Castro and maybe Taylor behind him. I'd be very surprised if we see any of the others now, atleast in the first half of the season.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on August 28, 2021, 02:45:36 PM
Thanks for that age info Stan
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Fritzl Palace on August 29, 2021, 02:46:14 PM
Last night shows our strongest defence is quite clearly now

Johnstone

O'Shea   Ajayi   Clarke
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 30, 2021, 10:25:37 AM
That Valerien would rather play Townsend out of position as a centre-back than bring on Taylor seems to suggest that he might only be willing to use at least some of the academy players as a last resort. If that's the case, our squad is still well short in depth of the required standard. As someone who feels that a player should only be required cover multiple positions as a desperate last resort, I think we still need:

1 x left-sided CB
1 x RWB (there is no cover apart from taking someone away from another position)
1 x CM (Castro looks to be well short of having what's needed to play in the system at present)
1 x CF (which would probably require Zohore to leave)

Given the disjointed performance in the Peterborough game, there's a question mark over how effective the system is going to be when we don't have our first choice XI out, which is going to be the case quite frequently if we're being honest. Valerien has stated that his system is only as good as the weakest link in it. Therefore I think we'll be taking an almighty risk if we don't bring more good quality players in before tomorrow's deadline.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on August 30, 2021, 01:02:53 PM
That is an excellent graphic Stan, thanks! The stand out concern there is back up for Furlong, I think OShea can provide defensive cover but we lose a lot offensively if Darnell is out , this needs prioritising imo

I think the cover is Ethan Ingram - who has performed well whenever I’ve seen him.

O’Shea should remain in the back three - he’s been colossus so far this season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 30, 2021, 01:54:28 PM
I think the cover is Ethan Ingram - who has performed well whenever I’ve seen him.

O’Shea should remain in the back three - he’s been colossus so far this season.

I think Gardner-Hickman is also an option at RWB, I'm not sure but I think Ingram and him were right backs in the youth set up?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 30, 2021, 02:01:53 PM
I think Gardner-Hickman is also an option at RWB, I'm not sure but I think Ingram and him were right backs in the youth set up?

Gardner-Hickman plays on the right normally but we have been using him on the left since Val took over.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: keithowba86 on August 30, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
surely phillips is the right wing back cover?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on August 30, 2021, 02:23:39 PM
surely phillips is the right wing back cover?
Would that be when he's playing as a centre forward or as a right-sided forward? You don't see a potential issue with one player covering multiple positions?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 30, 2021, 09:55:21 PM
surely phillips is the right wing back cover?
I think Phillips is wasted at RWB. He is best when he is able to run with the ball inside and attack the opposition penalty box from there. Even though he set up yesterday's winner from a right wing position.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 01, 2021, 10:14:43 AM
With the summer transfer window having closed, we now have to name a 25-man squad list for the season. The squad list Standaman has kindly been maintaining has 31 players on it, so which 6 players would people omit from the finalised list?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on September 01, 2021, 10:19:17 AM
With the summer transfer window having closed, we now have to name a 25-man squad list for the season. The squad list Standaman has kindly been maintaining has 31 players on it, so which 6 players would people omit from the finalised list?

Loan players and young players don't count in the 25, only rule is 5 loans only in a match day 18.

Copied the following from the EFL website.
https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-6---players/


Squad Lists

43.9.1  Clubs shall be permitted to name up to a maximum number of Players in their Squad
List based on the following provisions:

(a)  in respect of Championship Clubs, 25 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player;

(b)  in respect of League One and Two Clubs:
(i) in Season 2020/21, 22 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player; and
(ii) in Season 2021/22 and each subsequent Season, 20 Players of which a minimum of 8 must be a Home Grown Player.

The limit set out in Regulation 43.9.1(b)(ii) increases to 22 for any Club relegated into League One, for its first Season following relegation.

43.9.2  The following Players do not need to be included in the Squad List to be eligible to play in League Matches:

(a)  in respect of Championship Clubs, any Under 21 Player (save for any Under 21 Player who is registered with the Club on a Temporary Loan Transfer); and

(b)  in respect of League One Clubs and League Two Clubs, any Under 21 Players.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 01, 2021, 10:45:44 AM
Loan players and young players don't count in the 25, only rule is 5 loans only in a match day 18.

<snip>

43.9.2  The following Players do not need to be included in the Squad List to be eligible to play in League Matches:

(a)  in respect of Championship Clubs, any Under 21 Player (save for any Under 21 Player who is registered with the Club on a Temporary Loan Transfer)
I can't see anything about loan players not being counted - the above is saying that loanees aged under 21 do have to be named in the 25-man squad as an exception to the under 21 aspect of the law, but it doesn't say anything about older loanees, so they do have to be included in the list of 25.

You're right about non-loan under 21s though, I'd forgotten about that. I think it's anyone who was under 21 as at 1/1/2021 or something like that, although I'm not certain whether it's actually "under 21" or "21 or under" as at that date.

Regardless of the semantics of the under 21 rule, all 31 players in Standaman's document will be able to play as 10 of them are aged under 21.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 01, 2021, 04:58:09 PM
resposted from millwall thread as this is more appropriate location

as we are delving into pre-history (pre EPL)  what was the Vic Buckingham formation which was apparently revolutionary and Ajax were credited with adopting?

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 01, 2021, 05:04:27 PM
resposted from millwall thread as this is more appropriate location

as we are delving into pre-history (pre EPL)  what was the Vic Buckingham formation which was apparently revolutionary and Ajax were credited with adopting?



3-2-2-3, otherwise known as the W-M formation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on September 01, 2021, 05:07:03 PM
3-2-2-3, otherwise known as the W-M formation.

never catch on that, 3 at the back ! Hilarious !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 01, 2021, 10:39:49 PM
never catch on that, 3 at the back ! Hilarious !

A lot of top teams still us it or a 2-3-2-3 when attacking e.g.

Allison

Gomez
Van Djik

TAA
Fabinho
Robertson

Henderson
Thiago

Salah
Firmino
Mane

Formations are fluid and change through the phases of play, but we like to put players in boxes to side comparison
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on September 02, 2021, 06:13:46 AM
Looks like we might need to dip into that loan market before the end of the month.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on September 02, 2021, 07:18:27 AM
Looks like we might need to dip into that loan market before the end of the month.
I didn’t realise that we could do that. Can we still sign players on full season loans from any club?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 02, 2021, 07:58:49 AM
They haven’t kicked a ball for us yet in 5 league matches, so no I won’t be counting them.

That's why they are "cover". Do you not count Snodgrass as midfield cover either?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: PartisanBaggie on September 02, 2021, 08:28:52 AM
That's why they are "cover". Do you not count Snodgrass as midfield cover either?

8 appearances in 26 league games since signing in January 2021. Only played a full 90 minutes in 3 of those appearances.

Can we count on Snoddy as adequate midfield cover or are we covering him already?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 02, 2021, 09:21:47 AM
Couldn't have come at a worse time with Millwall up next.
Bartley seemed to be a bug though so he should be fully recovered. Not sure about Kipre's injury, but, if he's not fit I would envisage either Taylor or Townsend in with Ajayi and Bartley, with Reach at LWB.

It's fine in hindsight saying that this highlights the lack of depth but that's not true is it? No-one was advocating bringing in another CH and, if any club in the league, including Fulham, had 3 CH's out injured they would face the same, if not worse dilemma.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on September 02, 2021, 09:41:55 AM
I didn’t realise that we could do that. Can we still sign players on full season loans from any club?

As far as I know we can.
I think the rule is you cannot offer a permanent transfer but you can have a loan with an option to buy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on September 02, 2021, 09:48:23 AM
I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure the loan window is shut its free agents only. There was a time when the loan window for EFL ,reopened after about a fortnight for a short  period but I think that's been scrapped for a few years now
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on September 02, 2021, 09:51:59 AM
I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure the loan window is shut its free agents only. There was a time when the loan window for EFL ,reopened after about a fortnight for a short  period but I think that's been scrapped for a few years now

Just had another look and you could be right. The emergency loan system was scrapped last year apparently so maybe we could be in the brown stuff
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 02, 2021, 09:56:06 AM
Livermore at centre back, anyone? He played there for Hull in a back three.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 02, 2021, 09:58:13 AM
No-one was advocating bringing in another CH
I have been actually, ever since Valerien was appointed - proper cover/alternatives needed for every position in the XI. I don't regard playing Townsend or Livermore as a centre-back as proper cover, it's not their position and will severely weaken the side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 02, 2021, 10:05:02 AM
I have been actually, ever since Valerien was appointed - proper cover/alternatives needed for every position in the XI. I don't regard playing Townsend or Livermore as a centre-back as proper cover, it's not their position and will severely weaken the side.

To be fair, I can't remember if it was you or someone else, but there was definitely some talk of a need for a left footed centre back to cover Clarke
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 02, 2021, 10:07:31 AM
8 appearances in 26 league games since signing in January 2021. Only played a full 90 minutes in 3 of those appearances.

Can we count on Snoddy as adequate midfield cover or are we covering him already?

yes we can count him as cover. By the very nature of being "cover" they aren't going to get much game time.

Anyway this thread is for discussing Dara O'Shea.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 02, 2021, 10:09:39 AM
I have been actually, ever since Valerien was appointed - proper cover/alternatives needed for every position in the XI. I don't regard playing Townsend or Livermore as a centre-back as proper cover, it's not their position and will severely weaken the side.
Yes but 3 specialists in every position requires a squad of 33, that's just not realistic and, even then if you get 4 CH's injured you are in the same position. To not play Townsend or Livermore, under any circumstances, you would need an infinite number of CH's.  ???

Injuries are unpredictable so you have to have contingencies, and the way to do that, with our budget, is to have flexibility. We have that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 02, 2021, 10:16:27 AM
Yes but 3 specialists in every position requires a squad of 33, that's just not realistic and, even then if you get 4 CH's injured you are in the same position. To not play Townsend or Livermore, under any circumstances, you would need an infinite number of CH's.  ???

Injuries are unpredictable so you have to have contingencies, and the way to do that, with our budget, is to have flexibility. We have that.

While I disagree with Worcs about this use of the odd utility player he isn't suggesting 3 players for every position, he's asking for 2. Which is a 22 man squad. Presumably he'd backfill the bench with kids whenever one of these reserves needed to play.

With specific regard to O'Shea I'd go Taylor Bartley and Ajayi if Kipre and Clarke are also unavailable. They can draw straws for LCB. Townsend wasn't up to it the other night. We have to trust these kids at some stage.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 02, 2021, 10:44:45 AM
While I disagree with Worcs about this use of the odd utility player he isn't suggesting 3 players for every position, he's asking for 2. Which is a 22 man squad. Presumably he'd backfill the bench with kids whenever one of these reserves needed to play.

With specific regard to O'Shea I'd go Taylor Bartley and Ajayi if Kipre and Clarke are also unavailable. They can draw straws for LCB. Townsend wasn't up to it the other night. We have to trust these kids at some stage.
Fair enough, doesn't change the point that you still have the potential for having more injuries than specialists. 6 CH's, 4 injured! How far down the kids ladder do you go to fill the bench.
We have to have flexibility and we do.

For what it's worth, I agree re replacing Dara and would go with Taylor, especially against a big physical side like Millwall. Depends how important Ish thinks having a left footer in there is. He clearly isn't averse to dropping Townsend in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 02, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Kenneth Zohore Ballon d'Or.......  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on September 02, 2021, 10:55:33 AM
Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Kenneth Zohore Ballon d'Or.......  ;D .
Ballon d'Or what? :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 02, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
Yes but 3 specialists in every position requires a squad of 33, that's just not realistic and, even then if you get 4 CH's injured you are in the same position. To not play Townsend or Livermore, under any circumstances, you would need an infinite number of CH's.  ???

Injuries are unpredictable so you have to have contingencies, and the way to do that, with our budget, is to have flexibility. We have that.
I never said 3 players for every position, just 2 of sufficient quality for every position in the XI, with no-one having to cover multiple positions.

Obviously things become very problematical if you have 4 players out from the same area of the pitch, no-one but the biggest clubs could pre-emptively legislate for that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 02, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
While I disagree with Worcs about this use of the odd utility player he isn't suggesting 3 players for every position, he's asking for 2. Which is a 22 man squad. Presumably he'd backfill the bench with kids whenever one of these reserves needed to play.
That's mostly correct. Once you've got the 22 players, I'm not averse to then having a handful of additional utility players to provide extra options and I would have them on the bench ahead of youngsters unless any of the youngsters are regarded as being particularly good by the coaching staff.

In my utopian world, I wouldn't see it as first choices and reserves/cover, but all 22 players being of a sufficiently high standard that we can rotate them without having a deleterious effect on our performances, even if the rotation is only to allow players to have some extra recovery time given our intense style of play.

We're very far from having the above though, so this is all moot really (as well as being in the wrong thread!).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 02, 2021, 11:37:56 AM
General point on Taylor as defensive cover in a three. He's a big honest lad who'll give of his best. But he's a little awkward and slow on the turn too.

I'd look at playing him centrally if required so he's got cover either side. On the right of a three at a push but definitely not on the left.

While I feel he has a future I don't think he reads the game as well as Dara so he's not as adaptable/flexible at this stage of his development.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: cads_ap_albion on September 02, 2021, 12:29:00 PM
General point on Taylor as defensive cover in a three. He's a big honest lad who'll give of his best. But he's a little awkward and slow on the turn too.

I'd look at playing him centrally if required so he's got cover either side. On the right of a three at a push but definitely not on the left.

While I feel he has a future I don't think he reads the game as well as Dara so he's not as adaptable/flexible at this stage of his development.

Very good point - you need pace on either side of the 3 if you want a back 3 to work properly. The pace is needed to cover the diagonal in behind the WB.

Ajayi is perfect in this system.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on September 02, 2021, 12:31:31 PM
Very good point - you need pace on either side of the 3 if you want a back 3 to work properly. The pace is needed to cover the diagonal in behind the WB.

Ajayi is perfect in this system.

You don't you need a decent sweeper / keeper. Neither O'Shea or Clarke are lightening but both are best options as our wider CB's.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheJacko2000 on September 02, 2021, 12:42:32 PM
That's mostly correct. Once you've got the 22 players, I'm not averse to then having a handful of additional utility players to provide extra options and I would have them on the bench ahead of youngsters unless any of the youngsters are regarded as being particularly good by the coaching staff.

In my utopian world, I wouldn't see it as first choices and reserves/cover, but all 22 players being of a sufficiently high standard that we can rotate them without having a deleterious effect on our performances, even if the rotation is only to allow players to have some extra recovery time given our intense style of play.


We're very far from having the above though, so this is all moot really (as well as being in the wrong thread!).

Just totally unfeasible even for the elite clubs. When everyone is fit you have 5 first team players not making match day squads.

I'll leave it now and let the thread get back to Dara, has he had a scan yet?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 02, 2021, 01:20:56 PM
Got to agree.  Decent specialist cover for 10 positions is wasteful.  3 or 4 decent utility players is more realistic.  In the old Spurs double winning team Tony Marchi seemed to cover about 3 or 4 defensive positions very adequately.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 02, 2021, 01:32:11 PM
Got to agree.  Decent specialist cover for 10 positions is wasteful.  3 or 4 decent utility players is more realistic.
So a 16 man squad then?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 02, 2021, 02:39:20 PM
Got to agree.  Decent specialist cover for 10 positions is wasteful.  3 or 4 decent utility players is more realistic.  In the old Spurs double winning team Tony Marchi seemed to cover about 3 or 4 defensive positions very adequately.

So a 16 man squad then?

Not what I said is it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on September 02, 2021, 02:47:08 PM
Not what I said is it?
I'm trying to clarify what you were saying?!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 02, 2021, 03:37:30 PM
What I didn't say was that all we needed was 3 or 4 utility players.
What I didn't say that you couldn't cover some positions with specialised players (e.g. CF)
I was contending with your assertion that we need 10 replacement outfield players each of whom covers a specific position.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 25, 2021, 12:14:30 PM
It is worrying that Ismael now seems very wedded to 13 players, especially when you consider his history of always using 3 subs and the high intensity style he wants to adopt.

Molumby hasn't got a single minute in his first 4 games here, Snodgrass has made 1 appearance from the bench in the league this season, while the apparent youth team opportunites that looked likely in the summer are now a distant memory with Castro and Garnder-Hickman nowhere near the matchday squad.

I'd imagine the return of Tulloch and Clarke might mean Ismael has more faith in his bench, as he doesn't mind changing his front 3 and you might see Reach coming off the bench (presuming Townsend goes back go left wing back), but it feels like a mixture of poor recruitment this summer mixed with Ismael being very stubborn/inflexible/not being prepared to give players a chance.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on September 25, 2021, 12:53:50 PM
It is worrying that Ismael now seems very wedded to 13 players, especially when you consider his history of always using 3 subs and the high intensity style he wants to adopt.

Molumby hasn't got a single minute in his first 4 games here, Snodgrass has made 1 appearance from the bench in the league this season, while the apparent youth team opportunites that looked likely in the summer are now a distant memory with Castro and Garnder-Hickman nowhere near the matchday squad.

I'd imagine the return of Tulloch and Clarke might mean Ismael has more faith in his bench, as he doesn't mind changing his front 3 and you might see Reach coming off the bench (presuming Townsend goes back go left wing back), but it feels like a mixture of poor recruitment this summer mixed with Ismael being very stubborn/inflexible/not being prepared to give players a chance.
In fairness I think it's more like 15 or 16 players. I think Clarke and obviously O'Shea are right in the front of Val's mind when they are fit. Tulloch may well feature here and there. Also think Molumby will certainly get his chance when one of the central two get injured/suspended....I was surprised and worried that he wasn't brought on at some stage when Livermore got that early booking a couple of games ago. I suspect we won't see that much of Snodgrass unless we have several injuries. Like you say making changes up front during a game is a regular occurrence and it does seem to freshen things up. He rightly doesn't seem to want to flog Diangana to death.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KingKoren on September 25, 2021, 01:05:40 PM
It is worrying that Ismael now seems very wedded to 13 players, especially when you consider his history of always using 3 subs and the high intensity style he wants to adopt.

Molumby hasn't got a single minute in his first 4 games here, Snodgrass has made 1 appearance from the bench in the league this season, while the apparent youth team opportunites that looked likely in the summer are now a distant memory with Castro and Garnder-Hickman nowhere near the matchday squad.

I'd imagine the return of Tulloch and Clarke might mean Ismael has more faith in his bench, as he doesn't mind changing his front 3 and you might see Reach coming off the bench (presuming Townsend goes back go left wing back), but it feels like a mixture of poor recruitment this summer mixed with Ismael being very stubborn/inflexible/not being prepared to give players a chance.

Snodgrass is coming back from a long term injury. Molumby hasn't been here that long and almost immediately went away with the national team. Livermore is the club captain and Mowatt is perhaps the most integral player in this team so it's no surprise he hasn't walked into the team. I think these players will get appearances. When you're in good form generally you don't change personnel or formation; despite performances we're unbeaten all season, winning 5 of the 9 so I understand the reluctance.

The recruitment has been poor though. Mowatt and Clarke were good acquisitions, unfortunately Clarke picked up the injury. The lack of a quality striker may come back to haunt us unless we rectify this in January. We put in more crosses than anyone else in this league but we don't have the target man to get on the end of them.

I think our most important piece of recruitment is Val and hopefully his ability to maximize limited resources, hopefully he proves to be our best signing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 25, 2021, 05:26:35 PM
Snodgrass is coming back from a long term injury. Molumby hasn't been here that long and almost immediately went away with the national team. Livermore is the club captain and Mowatt is perhaps the most integral player in this team so it's no surprise he hasn't walked into the team. I think these players will get appearances. When you're in good form generally you don't change personnel or formation; despite performances we're unbeaten all season, winning 5 of the 9 so I understand the reluctance.

The recruitment has been poor though. Mowatt and Clarke were good acquisitions, unfortunately Clarke picked up the injury. The lack of a quality striker may come back to haunt us unless we rectify this in January. We put in more crosses than anyone else in this league but we don't have the target man to get on the end of them.

I think our most important piece of recruitment is Val and hopefully his ability to maximize limited resources, hopefully he proves to be our best signing.

I don't agree with this, as you need to factor in the bargain basement transfer budget. Given the meagre resources allocated I think the coaching staff have generally spent what little money they had pretty wisely. You can't legislate for Clarke pulling his hamstring.

In respect of the system, my only gripe is that I like to see the manger give Grant, Robinson and Grady more minutes, rather than using them as rolling subs and restricting them to 25-45 minute appearances. Although Val might be looking at the bigger picture with so many games coming up and resting legs.

Reach has definitely grown in confidence and had a decent left foot. Townsend though is out of position in a back three.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 02, 2021, 05:22:36 AM
Time to bring this one back round... think we should try 352 or 433. An extra body in midfield to work the openings we should try and utilize snodgrass or see what this molumby has got.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on October 02, 2021, 05:36:03 AM
Time to bring this one back round... think we should try 352 or 433. An extra body in midfield to work the openings we should try and utilize snodgrass or see what this molumby has got.
Unfortunately mate, this manager is not for changing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on October 02, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
Time to bring this one back round... think we should try 352 or 433. An extra body in midfield to work the openings we should try and utilize snodgrass or see what this molumby has got.

It’s not changing.  You either go with what we have or sign better players to fit the system.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 02, 2021, 11:07:45 AM
It’s not changing.  You either go with what we have or sign better players to fit the system.

With that in mind we need a 2nd Mowett or perhaps Molumby could be the answer and we need Daryl Dike or a clone!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SirTonyM on October 02, 2021, 01:33:24 PM
A lot to be said about tactics from people that are more knowledgeable about those things. The most obvious thing to me is the paucity of the squad. Of all the times we have been relegated and tried to get back up this is the weakest squad. Vals Barnsley team we’re based on young hungry players. I just wouldn’t describe Livermore, Phillips and Hugill that way (Phillips has actually done well this season).
One other observation, our “poorer” run started with Clarke and Dara both being injured.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 30, 2021, 02:28:00 PM
There’s been time to assess the squad now and within Val’s 343 I think our best 11 is

Johnstone
Ajayi (pains me to say it)
Bartley (pains me to say it)
Clarke
Furlong (pains me to say it)
Molumby
Mowatt
Townsend
Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Bryan, Kipre, Snods, Livermore, Phillips, Hugill

Livermore will start though, I’d like to see Bryan get a chance.
That front 3 needs to be given a chance and not chopped and changed every time at half time
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2021, 02:29:20 PM
There’s been time to assess the squad now and within Val’s 343 I think our best 11 is

Johnstone
Ajayi (pains me to say it)
Bartley (pains me to say it)
Clarke
Furlong (pains me to say it)
Molumby
Mowatt
Townsend
Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Bryan, Kipre, Snods, Livermore, Phillips, Hugill

Livermore will start though, I’d like to see Bryan get a chance.
That front 3 needs to be given a chance and not chopped and changed every time at half time



No O'shea!?!?? Or you mean of the currently fit. I read it as that's your best squad if everyones fit so apologies in advance if i misunderstand.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 30, 2021, 03:38:43 PM


No O'shea!?!?? Or you mean of the currently fit. I read it as that's your best squad if everyones fit so apologies in advance if i misunderstand.

I was thinking about from what's available now. Forgot about Reach as well actually, he'd be on the bench in place of Kipre I guess (Or Livermore but that's wishful thinking!)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on October 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
There’s been time to assess the squad now and within Val’s 343 I think our best 11 is

Johnstone
Ajayi (pains me to say it)
Bartley (pains me to say it)
Clarke
Furlong (pains me to say it)
Molumby
Mowatt
Townsend
Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Bryan, Kipre, Snods, Livermore, Phillips, Hugill

Livermore will start though, I’d like to see Bryan get a chance.
That front 3 needs to be given a chance and not chopped and changed every time at half time
Of the ones that are fit, you're probably right. But we are going to lose players to injury/suspension along the way, and that is a very very weak bench. It highlights the fact that our squad as a whole is not that strong.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on October 30, 2021, 06:33:49 PM
sorry, what has Diangana done to be a first team pick ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: chipperclark on October 31, 2021, 12:01:09 AM
Overan in midfield against Fulham with 2 “cloggers”in midfield. When I saw the team for Fulham I knew straight away we were going to get overrun in midfield . We needed to play 3 , At least include Molumby who can get around and break up play.
Cannot see why Val can’t see this when we can. No time for him to pick his favourites here. He needed to change the system today  :'(
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 31, 2021, 11:50:09 AM
The malaise at the Albion has deep roots.  Since Ashworth left us there has been no vision or settled style.  It's telling that when he left his job with the England set-up he choose not to come back to us but opted instead for Plastic Albion.
Interesting also that he joined Graham Potter whom I was recommending we should engage when he was free.

Instead we've had a succession of stop-gap managers who've been concerned with the short term goals of keeping us in the EPL or getting back there without any consideration of longer term recruitment and development of players. As a consequence, the football has often been dire, negative and sometimes cynical.  That's hardly surprising when you look at most of the managers we have had.

Contrary to most here, I think that under Val the style is slowly changing for the better, even in the Fulham match where we were on the end of some poor refereeing.  You can only do so much with the players we have  He has 4 years to make something of this team.  I think to get straight back up would only see us straight back down the following season.

There must be a radical change.  How can we attract young hopefuls here unless we get the reputation for giving our own academy products at least a chance.  We can rule out using money as an incentive.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 31, 2021, 11:55:42 AM
sorry, what has Diangana done to be a first team pick ?

Before he was injured for a couple of games he was hitting form, playing very well and quite frankly there is nobody better in my opinion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on October 31, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Pleased with Furlong's ban. He has been steady, but in this system with so little creativity in the front 3 or midfield, we really need top class wing backs and Furlong is just so so. Will miss his long throws, but this is hopefully a chance for Gardner-Hickman to show what he can do.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: kc56wba on October 31, 2021, 01:39:36 PM
Pleased with Furlong's ban. He has been steady, but in this system with so little creativity in the front 3 or midfield, we really need top class wing backs and Furlong is just so so. Will miss his long throws, but this is hopefully a chance for Gardner-Hickman to show what he can do.

Pleased with a ban  :o
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on October 31, 2021, 02:05:14 PM
Pleased with a ban  :o

Baffled me too Kev.......cannot understand that logic at all
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on October 31, 2021, 02:19:50 PM
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Val's favoured 3-4-3 formation.
When problems have arisen, such as against Fulham, its because the components in the system have not delivered. We need a better No.9 to lead the forward line. Mitrovic yesterday was everything that Hugill isn't.  And the middle 2 yesterday, Livermore and Snodgrass, weren't able to establish control in midfield.

I don't believe the answer is to play deeper. We've seen numerous Albion managers try that and fail.  Forward pressing is a good philosophy because it forces the game to be played in the opposition half. But you need disciplined, and above all, quick defenders to make it work.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 31, 2021, 08:10:21 PM
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Val's favoured 3-4-3 formation.
When problems have arisen, such as against Fulham, its because the components in the system have not delivered. We need a better No.9 to lead the forward line. Mitrovic yesterday was everything that Hugill isn't.  And the middle 2 yesterday, Livermore and Snodgrass, weren't able to establish control in midfield.

I don't believe the answer is to play deeper. We've seen numerous Albion managers try that and fail.  Forward pressing is a good philosophy because it forces the game to be played in the opposition half. But you need disciplined, and above all, quick defenders to make it work.
That's been quite a common issue though that we can get outnumbered in midfield. We very rarely can be said to have control of midfield - in fact I'm not sure control anywhere including midfield is in the game plan with the usual Val tactics.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on October 31, 2021, 08:59:55 PM
That's been quite a common issue though that we can get outnumbered in midfield. We very rarely can be said to have control of midfield - in fact I'm not sure control anywhere including midfield is in the game plan with the usual Val tactics.

Agreed. Any manager wishing to control the centre of midfield would not be picking Livermore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on October 31, 2021, 10:29:16 PM
That's been quite a common issue though that we can get outnumbered in midfield. We very rarely can be said to have control of midfield - in fact I'm not sure control anywhere including midfield is in the game plan with the usual Val tactics.
I think there has been an issue of the midfield getting by-passed at times. I don't think Val's system can work if it just means long hoofs up to our forwards. They seem to be more effective when the moves are built up with passes along the ground, like against Bristol. That means having players who feed accurate and well timed passes into them. Mowatt is our best player at doing this, so he was a big absence v Fulham. Snodgrass has a good left foot pass, but he never got going. Maybe he was too far behind the forwards. I haven't yet seen enough of Mulumby. He covers alot of ground, so maybe he's more of a ball winner, and not up to providing many assists.

The midfielders should be getting on the scoresheet as well. We know Mowatt has an excellent shot on him. A lot of goals can be scored from making runs forward from the edge of the penalty box, but then Townsend and Furlong have to learn to cut the ball back instead of always whacking it across the goalmouth.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on November 01, 2021, 08:24:13 PM
Baffled me too Kev.......cannot understand that logic at all

I explained my logic in the original post. Ismael is stubborn and he won't change anything unless forced to do so. He just doesn't experiment or tinker with either the system or its component parts, instead he just keeps ploughing ahead regardless. The only way Ismael will change is when his hand is forced. He seems unfazed by the fact we are slowly slipping further and further behind the top 2 and being caught by those below us.

Against Bristol City, he was forced to play Molumby and Snodgrass due to injury and suspension, 2 players who are more comfortable going forward. It was our most attack minded central midfield of the season and many said it produced our best performance of the season.

Sure enough Livermore is straight back in for Molumby and we get walloped 3-0. Now with this system, I'f you are going to play a conservative midfield and play 3 forwards who are more known for scoring than setting up goals, then there is a lot of pressure on the wing backs to be your main creative forces. Neither Townsend or Furlong have had bad seasons, but neither of them would be in the team of the season either. They are steady championship full backs/wing backs. They don't offer the dynamism that we really need to make up for our lack of creativity there.

This suspension now means Ismael HAS to change things around. In Gardner-Hickman, we might have somebody who is out of his depth, or we might have a player who is just as comfortable playing on the wing as he is playing wing back and who might just be a different type of weapon.

The Furlong suspension might provide us with an opportunity to improve the balance of the team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 01, 2021, 10:16:55 PM
cant remember the detail but didnt the change in fortunes (minor) under Allardyce occur due to enforced changes ?  Is stubborness a trait of managers nowadays?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: caravanc58 on November 01, 2021, 10:45:01 PM
cant remember the detail but didnt the change in fortunes (minor) under Allardyce occur due to enforced changes ?  Is stubborness a trait of managers nowadays?
wasn't it when Branislav Ivanović went off injured away at Chelsea?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 07, 2021, 09:24:03 AM
Best team for when we return? Within the confines of the 343.

Johnstone

Kipre
Bartley
Clarke

Furlong (Gardner-Hickman needs a slow introduction but can rotate)
Townsend

Mowatt
Molumby (but it will be Livermore)

Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Ajayi, Gardner-Hickman, Reach, Livermore/Molumby, Snodgrass, Phillips

Missing out; Bryan (assuming injury), Hugill, Zohore.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on November 07, 2021, 01:16:40 PM
Seems about right to me. Until January we have no other viable options. And doubtful if anything will change much then either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on November 07, 2021, 01:23:07 PM
There isn't much wrong with the current team selection, we are missing Mowatt, who has quality the rest of the midfield do not. That apart I would like to see more of Gardner-Hickman and Val needs to be a bit more consistent with his selection at the back. Of course, a quality striker in January would help.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 07, 2021, 05:39:17 PM
I want to see 3 5 2. We seem to always have too many out wide wide foward wing back even the cb or cm at times. 3 in middle might allow us to control game.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on November 07, 2021, 06:07:23 PM
The old Johan Cruyff philosophy was, when we have the ball spread it wide, when they have it, stay compact.

Having width is what stretchs defences leaving more gaps. Playing 3 up front gives extra width. When you're playing teams that park the bus, its even more important to try and get around them. Playing 2 up front would make us less potent.
Wing backs only partly compensate. If you look at teams like City, the wing backs are added extras. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 07, 2021, 06:49:53 PM
Best team for when we return? Within the confines of the 343.

Johnstone

Kipre
Bartley
Clarke

Furlong (Gardner-Hickman needs a slow introduction but can rotate)
Townsend

Mowatt
Molumby (but it will be Livermore)

Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Ajayi, Gardner-Hickman, Reach, Livermore/Molumby, Snodgrass, Phillips

Missing out; Bryan (assuming injury), Hugill, Zohore.

Arrrggghhh what is it you gave seen, in any game, that makes you think that front three works.  Its amazing on paper.......
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 07, 2021, 06:52:07 PM
The old Johan Cruyff philosophy was, when we have the ball spread it wide, when they have it, stay compact.

Having width is what stretchs defences leaving more gaps. Playing 3 up front gives extra width. When you're playing teams that park the bus, its even more important to try and get around them. Playing 2 up front would make us less potent.
Wing backs only partly compensate. If you look at teams like City, the wing backs are added extras.

Yep.  Val really likes the wide overload that wing backs plus a front three gives.  Problem is we don't have the number nine to cause havoc and get on the end of the crosses or predatory midfielders/wing backs. Oh for Superbob  or SKP.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on November 07, 2021, 07:57:45 PM
Arrrggghhh what is it you gave seen, in any game, that makes you think that front three works.  Its amazing on paper.......

Well there really aren’t many other options available…
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 07, 2021, 08:08:26 PM
Well there really aren’t many other options available…

True However,  even with his limitations I'd go with Hugill. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 08, 2021, 10:18:55 AM
Agreed. Any manager wishing to control the centre of midfield would not be picking Livermore.

it's an issue with numbers rather than players as opposition midfields tend to have 3 or more players against our two.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 08, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
Best team for when we return? Within the confines of the 343.

Johnstone

Kipre
Bartley
Clarke

Furlong (Gardner-Hickman needs a slow introduction but can rotate)
Townsend

Mowatt
Molumby (but it will be Livermore)

Diangana
Robinson
Grant

Palmer, Ajayi, Gardner-Hickman, Reach, Livermore/Molumby, Snodgrass, Phillips

Missing out; Bryan (assuming injury), Hugill, Zohore.

That line up only allows for 1 change to the front 3 though in Phillips.

Is Palmer a better option than Button?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 08, 2021, 10:58:03 AM
it's an issue with numbers rather than players as opposition midfields tend to have 3 or more players against our two.

Which perhaps explains why our wider front players tend to sit on (or get close to) our opponents midfield block in certain games looking for the second ball, instead of providing the extra width a number of posters still seem to think we have in our 3-4-3 system.

It's often 3-4-2-1, or in certain defensive instances 5-4-1/5-2-2-1. I don't know whether it's by design or just poor play but here's also times we've only got two at the back, something which TV viewers won't be able to see unless it's pointed out in highlights commentary or on a forum.

Sorry about the poor grammar and punctuation but I'm just passing through.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 08, 2021, 11:21:19 AM
Which perhaps explains why our wider front players tend to sit on (or get close to) our opponents midfield block in certain games looking for the second ball, instead of providing the extra width a number of posters still seem to think we have in our 3-4-3 system.

It's often 3-4-2-1, or in certain defensive instances 5-4-1/5-2-2-1. I don't know whether it's by design or just poor play but here's also times we've only got two at the back, something which TV viewers won't be able to see unless it's pointed out in highlights commentary or on a forum.

Sorry about the poor grammar and punctuation but I'm just passing through.
With the wing backs, I think it's important that the wide front-men say Grant/Phillips/Grady do look for space around the edge of the box. If say Townsend crosses from the left whoever is playing wide right should be looking to get into space near the far post. Also going back to the point of lack of numbers in midfield which is a problem, whatever the plan is, the wide forwards don't make any real difference in terms of helping out in there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on November 09, 2021, 08:37:19 AM
Missing out; Bryan (assuming injury), Hugill, Zohore.

As poor a striker as he maybe, Hugill is still going to play each week whether we like it or not.

I cannot see us doing any business in January to strengthen that position either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 09, 2021, 08:40:07 AM
Well there really aren’t many other options available…

Nail on the head!

As for Hugill, what have we seen from him to dislodge any of them. I actually don’t really care that much who starts as long as Grady gets a run. Grants scoring record keeps him in but Hugill and Robinson are swapped out at 45-60 mins for the other anyway so it doesn’t really matter who starts.

As poor a striker as he maybe, Hugill is still going to play each week whether we like it or not.

I cannot see us doing any business in January to strengthen that position either.

I really hope you’re wrong but fear that you’re right!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 09, 2021, 09:33:35 AM
The old Johan Cruyff philosophy was, when we have the ball spread it wide, when they have it, stay compact.
...

Johan Cruyff also said that the opposition cannot score goals as long as you have the ball which gave birth to the keep the ball and keep it moving philosophy at Barca which some on this site despise as "tippy tappy".

Whether you go for a possession game or not, I think  you still need to match the opposition in midfield which you can't do with just two players in the twilight of their careers.  I would favour 4-3-3 but change as the situation requires.     

Val needs the 3-4-3 for the overload game but the players he has aren't pressing.  If Clarke and Bryan are out then we need someone left footed in the back line, I would go (with alternatives / replacements)

Johnson

Furlong/TGH   Kipre   Bartley   Townsend

Molumby  Livermore  Mowatt

Phillips/Diangana   CR7   Grant/Reach
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on November 09, 2021, 02:27:07 PM
Johan Cruyff also said that the opposition cannot score goals as long as you have the ball which gave birth to the keep the ball and keep it moving philosophy at Barca which some on this site despise as "tippy tappy".

Whether you go for a possession game or not, I think  you still need to match the opposition in midfield which you can't do with just two players in the twilight of their careers.  I would favour 4-3-3 but change as the situation requires.     

Val needs the 3-4-3 for the overload game but the players he has aren't pressing.  If Clarke and Bryan are out then we need someone left footed in the back line, I would go (with alternatives / replacements)

Johnson

Furlong/TGH   Kipre   Bartley   Townsend

Molumby  Livermore  Mowatt

Phillips/Diangana   CR7   Grant/Reach
My original comment was a response to a poster who was suggesting going narrower up top with 2 strikers.

I see you've gone for 4-3-3 which is also my favourite formation, but its debatable whether it makes you stronger in midfield than 3-4-3. Depends on how the wing backs contribute. Val probably favours 3-4-3 as it gives the wing backs more freedom to get forward.

However, any formation has to have the players capable of making it work. You need the right balance between creative players and ball winners. With Mowatt we are lucky to have a player who is both. Snodgrass is both, but is too slow, so he doesn't get up and down the pitch.  Livermore is a good ball winner, but very limited in setting up chances.   Haven't made up my mind about Mulumby yet.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: FallOutBoy on November 09, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
I think we should be playing 4-3-3 with this squad. With all due respect, we aren't Barnsley, we go into games with the onus on us to attack teams. We have two full-backs who are quite capable of getting forward without playing an actual wing-back role, and it would free up an extra body further forward.

Personally I prefer a 4-2-3-1 formation, but we haven't got a player capable of playing the 'number 10' role in this squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 10, 2021, 07:53:31 PM
I have no problem with 2 in the middle when we have the ball, as we bypass the middle, however when the oppo have the ball it’s unreasonable to expect any 2 of our midfielders to cope against 3 or even 4.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 10, 2021, 10:20:38 PM
2 in the middle just doesn't work for us.
I know I keep banging on about it but 352 has to be the set up for us
It's both attacking and defensive
I don't get why Val won't try it he can just revert back from formation to formation in the same match, or are our players not capable of that?
Or try one system in the first half then if its not working change the system for the second half and keep the opposition guessing
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on November 10, 2021, 10:44:50 PM
The stats suggest that our problems don't lay in making chances, we're just not converting them.

Expected goals (for and against), are the accepted metric, & we are in the top 3 performers in the championship for both.

Only Fulham & Bournemouth have conceded less goals than us, but four teams have scored more than us.

There is nothing in the stats to suggest that we have major problems in the middle of the park.

IMO our priority in January should be a goalscorer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 11, 2021, 08:03:24 AM
The stats suggest that our problems don't lay in making chances, we're just not converting them.

Expected goals (for and against), are the accepted metric, & we are in the top 3 performers in the championship for both.

Only Fulham & Bournemouth have conceded less goals than us, but four teams have scored more than us.

There is nothing in the stats to suggest that we have major problems in the middle of the park.

IMO our priority in January should be a goalscorer.
Fair points but I wonder how many of those chances have been scrappy ones stemming from our set pieces and long throws. I don't think it's because we are dominant in midfield and creating lots of quality chances for strikers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on November 11, 2021, 08:28:05 AM
Fair points but I wonder how many of those chances have been scrappy ones stemming from our set pieces and long throws. I don't think it's because we are dominant in midfield and creating lots of quality chances for strikers.

Personally, I believe there are two separate issues:

The stats themselves are one
The style of how we get there is the other

The stats are the stats, so it might be scrappy chances.

I agree, the style is not very attractive, but the stats suggest it's effective, with the exception of the conversion rate.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 11, 2021, 08:49:18 AM
Personally, I believe there are two separate issues:

The stats themselves are one
The style of how we get there is the other

The stats are the stats, so it might be scrappy chances.

I agree, the style is not very attractive, but the stats suggest it's effective, with the exception of the conversion rate.
I suppose the style can affect who the chances fall to. Are a relatively high proportion of ours falling to Bartley, Ajayi, Furlong, Livermore because of how they come about. It's complex to prove anything I know.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 11, 2021, 09:46:36 AM
I suppose the style can affect who the chances fall to. Are a relatively high proportion of ours falling to Bartley, Ajayi, Furlong, Livermore because of how they come about. It's complex to prove anything I know.

Darnell Furlong in particular has had a whole raft of presentable opportunities. Unfortunately for him and us Mr. Balloon Boots has found some very creative ways to miss the target completely though.

Bartley and Ajayi's headers from set pieces can go quite literally anywhere and I'd be willing to bet Jake Livermore probably feels he should have had at least three shots go in this season.

They've all had some very presentable chances and that's before coming to a couple of Hugill efforts. Out of the players you mentioned Ajayi has probably had the least 'decent' ones but to his credit he came up with the goods at Peterborough.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 21, 2021, 12:01:35 PM
You've got to wonder if he will bend a bit now, especially away from home. Something has to change. I'm not sure we'd see it but I'd love to see a 433 or 4312 tried, it's not a massive deviation.

Back 4 of Furlong, Ajayi, Clarke, Townsend. Middle 3 off Mowatt, Livermore, Molumby. Front 3 of any of them until we can buy a new CF. I'd be sort of tempted to go back to basics and have a left winger, right winger and CF which would basically make it Diangana, Phillips and Hugill.

Whatever 3 go up top, they aren't performing but Grant has maybe scored the goals to not deserve dropping.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on November 21, 2021, 12:06:30 PM
You've got to wonder if he will bend a bit now, especially away from home. Something has to change. I'm not sure we'd see it but I'd love to see a 433 or 4312 tried, it's not a massive deviation.

Back 4 of Furlong, Ajayi, Clarke, Townsend. Middle 3 off Mowatt, Livermore, Molumby. Front 3 of any of them until we can buy a new CF. I'd be sort of tempted to go back to basics and have a left winger, right winger and CF which would basically make it Diangana, Phillips and Hugill.

Whatever 3 go up top, they aren't performing but Grant has maybe scored the goals to not deserve dropping.
The above would be a solution to a lot of out troubles , get rid of the high line for starters .
3 in the middle with Livermore at the base , 3 up top with the wide two cutting in or 2 behind the lone forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 21, 2021, 12:10:26 PM
The above would be a solution to a lot of out troubles , get rid of the high line for starters .
3 in the middle with Livermore at the base , 3 up top with the wide two cutting in or 2 behind the lone forward.

It's a simple solution and I really hope he tries it because I want him to succeed and I want stability at the club. I do also wonder if Hugill and Grant would flourish in a front 2 but that may be a bridge too far and where does the extra CF extract from formation wise.

VI has a lot to think about and needs to turn get back on track, once we're on 20+ games the opening 10 game unbeaten run is just a memory.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on November 22, 2021, 06:15:16 AM
Not sure we will see a formation change which means it will require some personnel changes and tweaks to the tactics.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on November 22, 2021, 12:40:04 PM
It's not going to change. Simple as that.

I'd be similar to Lewisant though.

433 - Molumbuy, Livermore and Mowatt.  Take your pick for the forward line but I'd have Robinson, Grant and one other.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 22, 2021, 12:42:35 PM
It's not going to change. Simple as that.

I'd be similar to Lewisant though.

433 - Molumbuy, Livermore and Mowatt.  Take your pick for the forward line but I'd have Robinson, Grant and one other.
I would go Phillips, Mowatt, Molumby  as the middle 3 with Robbo, Hugill and Grant up top.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 23, 2021, 03:04:10 AM
Im not sure we will change system or shape. However i think a molumby mowatt axis will help us out. Both get into the box.

Also i would like VI to go to Robinson grant and Phillips fluid front 3 like how they were playing start of the season
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 23, 2021, 07:02:53 AM
If Saturday's game's anything to go by Mowatt's still playing himself back into fitness/game tempo. Whatever the central pairing it could take time for it to bed in. We're going to need some patience in the stands, something that's in short supply given the limitations in our current end product.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tuamigos on November 23, 2021, 07:57:18 AM
Im not sure we will change system or shape. However i think a molumby mowatt axis will help us out. Both get into the box.

Also i would like VI to go to Robinson grant and Phillips fluid front 3 like how they were playing start of the season

Whoever we play up front, the ball into them needs to be a lot better than it has been, and at least one of those 3 need to be busting a gut to get on the end of some of the crosses that are put into the box.
Far too often we are putting the ball across the face of goal and there's no-one in the box at all.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 23, 2021, 09:00:59 AM
Whoever we play up front, the ball into them needs to be a lot better than it has been, and at least one of those 3 need to be busting a gut to get on the end of some of the crosses that are put into the box.
Far too often we are putting the ball across the face of goal and there's no-one in the box at all.
That's the only reason I put Hugill in there. As poor as he's been, I would still rather him on the end of a cross into the box than any of the others. He did show against Bristol that he can get on the end of things so I'd give him a go. Robinson is clearly not happy so It's a case of needs must.
I would definitely have Tulloch or Cleary on the bench, maybe even Zohore. It's not working at the moment so we need a spark.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbastrollers on November 23, 2021, 09:22:58 AM
If Saturday's game's anything to go by Mowatt's still playing himself back into fitness/game tempo. Whatever the central pairing it could take time for it to bed in. We're going to need some patience in the stands, something that's in short supply given the limitations in our current end product.

Will you  please stop being so sensible! It really goes against the grain,
please!!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 23, 2021, 11:14:59 AM
It really has to be 352
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 23, 2021, 11:58:30 AM
Will you  please stop being so sensible! It really goes against the grain,
please!!

Sorry, didn't realise a semblance of perspective would unhinge the universe whilst bringing both scorn and damnattion to the site. Please accept my humble apologies  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on November 23, 2021, 12:44:03 PM
That's the only reason I put Hugill in there. As poor as he's been, I would still rather him on the end of a cross into the box than any of the others. He did show against Bristol that he can get on the end of things so I'd give him a go. Robinson is clearly not happy so It's a case of needs must.
I would definitely have Tulloch or Cleary on the bench, maybe even Zohore. It's not working at the moment so we need a spark.

I agree with the sentiment. Sadly it wont be Zohore as the poor lad is injured!!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on November 23, 2021, 01:32:52 PM
I don't know why Grant can't be tried as a No.9. We have tried everyone else without any being a particular success and he has the physical build. Or does he have to be played on the left so that he can cut inside and get it onto his right foot? That sounds rather like a one trick pony.

It would also allow Diangana to play in his strongest position. He is a winger but needs space in front of him to run into. In midfield he plays like a winger, but seems to end up dribbling straight into whole clusters of players. He needs to play one against one which makes the wing position more suitable.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tex on November 23, 2021, 01:43:18 PM
The coach has shown he is not interested in changing tactics, a rigid 4 3 3 and sub at 60 mins. The only thing that’s changing is the opposition, we are predictable to play against and good coaches are finding us out.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: EveshamBaggy on November 23, 2021, 01:55:52 PM
Not sure it requires even a good coach to work us out
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on November 23, 2021, 02:06:14 PM
The coach has shown he is not interested in changing tactics, a rigid 4 3 3 and sub at 60 mins. The only thing that’s changing is the opposition, we are predictable to play against and good coaches are finding us out.
We have changed from a more direct long ball style to one which involves more passing.  But I get your point that his basic formation has stayed at 3-4-3. I think most managers have their favourite formation which they have settled on through their careers. Just as Tony Pulis has his favoured formation, so has Val. If the Albion board had said to Pulis at his interview, Tony, we'd like you to play free-flowing attacking football with high press and overlapping fullbacks. You know it wouldn't happen, and Val has similarly said what his playing philosophy is. 

That's not to say things shouldn't be tweaked during games. If your rightback is being turned inside out, you know he needs extra help or subbing. Also injuries change things. You may also need an extra man going forward or to tighten up the defence during a game, depending on the score, but that doesn't mean changing the overall strategy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 23, 2021, 02:24:35 PM
The coach has shown he is not interested in changing tactics, a rigid 4 3 3 and sub at 60 mins. The only thing that’s changing is the opposition, we are predictable to play against and good coaches are finding us out.

The problem isn't that he doesn't change tactics. He does hence post after post on this thread suggesting the players are often caught in two minds. To the best of my recollection we haven't played 433 at any point this season other than during transitions of play.

For the majority of the time we've played 343 with the two wide front players often dropping into a 3421 looking for second balls from the opposition midfield. We're predictable when we go long and we're predictable when we dither between the long and short game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 23, 2021, 04:27:11 PM
The problem isn't that he doesn't change tactics. He does hence post after post on this thread suggesting the players are often caught in two minds. To the best of my recollection we haven't played 433 at any point this season other than during transitions of play.

For the majority of the time we've played 343 with the two wide front players often dropping into a 3421 looking for second balls from the opposition midfield. We're predictable when we go long and we're predictable when we dither between the long and short game.

I guess if you keep playing the same way every game them you're predictable and it's easy for other teams to suss you out.  The fact that we dither in mid-field could be down to the front runners not taking up good positions or the midfielders not seeing or executing the pass or them not being properly coached as a team - or all three of them. 

In any game shouldn't we vary our tactics particularly if the current tactics is not working?    No more speculative long crosses into the box please; we don't have anyone who can convert them.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbastrollers on November 23, 2021, 06:35:34 PM
Sorry, didn't realise a semblance of perspective would unhinge the universe whilst bringing both scorn and damnattion to the site. Please accept my humble apologies  ;D .

I accept your gracious apology!

P.S Keep it up  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 23, 2021, 10:02:58 PM
Much better with Mowatt and Molumby.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on November 23, 2021, 10:04:49 PM
Much better with Mowatt and Molumby.

Two proper footballers.

Refreshing to see both trying to retain the ball and press rather than the cumbersome Livermore of recent weeks.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 23, 2021, 10:38:55 PM
Two proper footballers.

Refreshing to see both trying to retain the ball and press rather than the cumbersome Livermore of recent weeks.

1 of 2 problems solved. Capable centre forward would fix the other glaring one
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on November 24, 2021, 07:34:26 AM
If Ismael still wants the pressing game then the template v Blackpool must surely be what he's looking for?

We looked energetic right through the 90 mins,if lacking a little quality.

IMO we stopped the pressing game as we have a 32 year old that cannot do it over a long 46 game campaign.  We have also had a short spell from Snodgrass.

Other notable points, I don't see how Kipre is better than Ajayi?  There is really no point in Hugill at all.

I'd still go after Yokuslu on January, unless we can get our hands on a top striker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on November 24, 2021, 08:04:19 AM
A simple 4 4 1 1 with Robinson / Grant switching about up top would suit so much better.
Grady wide left , Phillips wide right if nobody else and support from Mowatt / JM .
So much more balanced
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on November 24, 2021, 08:53:17 AM
A lot being said about systems and VI on the forum . Unfortunately it's players that make systems work and I fail to see we have the players fir a more passing  aged expensive game. Just where you fit the likes of Robinson , Grant ,Phillips into any system is difficult but somehow we have to because of the lack of viable alternatives. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DaveWBA on November 24, 2021, 09:32:04 AM
A simple 4 4 1 1 with Robinson / Grant switching about up top would suit so much better.
Grady wide left , Phillips wide right if nobody else and support from Mowatt / JM .
So much more balanced

Not enough numbers forward to implement an effective press. We were better last night. The way Val wants to press the ball requires us to have three up top. It's the 3-4-3 or 4-3-3, potentially a 4-4-2. Seeing as his methods are more aligned to principles of play, I'm not sure the system he uses will change too much.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 24, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
I listened to ts2 commentary on the match last night, the main describe seemed to be pro Blackpool with the ex pro I won't call him a footballer because he played like a thug, saying that we play with no plan, sort of kick and rush type play
But some on here who may have seen it live are suggesting that we were better last night, what's the truth?
Blackpool played the better football, was constantly said, by the way, whoever said there was a right way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 24, 2021, 10:39:07 AM
I listened to ts2 commentary on the match last night, the main describe seemed to be pro Blackpool with the ex pro I won't call him a footballer because he played like a thug, saying that we play with no plan, sort of kick and rush type play
But some on here who may have seen it live are suggesting that we were better last night, what's the truth?
Blackpool played the better football, was constantly said, by the way, whoever said there was a right way.
It was better in terms of intensity but we lacked a plan. Yes we had shots but we didn't really create chances. It was more stick it in the box and have a shy at it, which meant most of them were blocked by defenders. Our keeper was the busier and made a worldie double save.
It's all well and good Val stating that we had 23 shots, but that's no good if they are falling to the wrong people, in the wrong areas. I would rather we had 9 or 10 quality chances that fell to the likes of Grant, Robinson or Phillips, all of whom we know can finish, in decent areas, following decent build up.

We are playing at least 5 forward players every game. 1 for 90 mins, 2 for 60 and 2 for 30, yet NONE of them have any form WHATSOEVER and none of them look confident.
So, I'll ask the question again, are all of these players suddenly rubbish or is there something wrong with the system?
Why are they so out of sorts, what are they doing in training?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on November 24, 2021, 10:39:10 AM
I listened to ts2 commentary on the match last night, the main describe seemed to be pro Blackpool with the ex pro I won't call him a footballer because he played like a thug, saying that we play with no plan, sort of kick and rush type play
But some on here who may have seen it live are suggesting that we were better last night, what's the truth?
Blackpool played the better football, was constantly said, by the way, whoever said there was a right way.

The press was back last night Liver, but it wasn't so much as a press, more of a light tickle. We were better than the weekend and the whole game was played at a fast pace from start to finish. My personal opinion is that whilst we were better, there does not seem to be too much enthusiasm from the team for Vals style.

We were as good as Blackpool, who defended in numbers and parked a couple of buses when required.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on November 24, 2021, 11:33:45 AM
A totally unbalanced squad.
We have 3 forward players who all like playing on the left of a 3 Grant,Diangana and Robinson.
If Grant doesn't score he offers nothing.
Diangana is a shadow of his former self and should be nowhere near the starting 11.
Robinson starts for me every game in his favoured position he is proven at this level.
Centre forward, until the transfer window opens we could do far worse than try one of the kids either Faal or Cleary.  Hugil is a poor battering ram and should be sent back to Norwich if we can.
Wide right , can Fellows or Gardner Hickman currently improve on Phillips?
Mowatt and Molumby are the obvious choice to play centrally in the current formation which I would change personally.
For me I'd go back to a basic 4-4-2
Johnstone
Townsend Clark Ajayi Furlong
Reach mowatt Molumby Snodgrass
Robinson and one other as a front two.

We are trying to shoehorn players who are out of form and not really suited to Val's system and style of play.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on November 24, 2021, 11:57:55 AM
We aren't ruthless enough with the chances created. What you'd give now for one of the following:

Jason Roberts
Lee Hughes
Bob Taylor
Kevin Phillips
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 24, 2021, 12:29:02 PM
A totally unbalanced squad.
We have 3 forward players who all like playing on the left of a 3 Grant,Diangana and Robinson.
If Grant doesn't score he offers nothing.
Diangana is a shadow of his former self and should be nowhere near the starting 11.
Robinson starts for me every game in his favoured position he is proven at this level.
Centre forward, until the transfer window opens we could do far worse than try one of the kids either Faal or Cleary.  Hugil is a poor battering ram and should be sent back to Norwich if we can.
Wide right , can Fellows or Gardner Hickman currently improve on Phillips?
Mowatt and Molumby are the obvious choice to play centrally in the current formation which I would change personally.
For me I'd go back to a basic 4-4-2
Johnstone
Townsend Clark Ajayi Furlong
Reach mowatt Molumby Snodgrass
Robinson and one other as a front two.

We are trying to shoehorn players who are out of form and not really suited to Val's system and style of play.

Depends what you mean by proven at this level. I'd say a goalscorer that is proven at this level would have a better than 1 in 4 goal rate across their career at this level. Robinson has scored 38 goals in 163 Championship games since 2015/16. Grant has a Championship record of 1 in 3 (28 in 84).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 24, 2021, 12:36:50 PM
Depends what you mean by proven at this level. I'd say a goalscorer that is proven at this level would have a better than 1 in 4 goal rate across their career at this level. Robinson has scored 38 goals in 163 Championship games since 2015/16. Grant has a Championship record of 1 in 3 (28 in 84).
What's Hugill? One in a blue moon?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on November 24, 2021, 12:50:24 PM
What's Hugill? One in a blue moon?

To be accurate, two years ago when he was on loan to QPR his strike rate was 1 in 3. Last season was much worse with Norwich, probably because he was on the bench a lot and Pukki was ahead of him in the pecking order.

You can make the figures say what you want really, but his recent season with QPR tends to suggest that he is no mug in the Championship.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 24, 2021, 12:56:10 PM
What's Hugill? One in a blue moon?

what's that got to do with Robinson being labelled as proven at this level?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on November 24, 2021, 01:09:59 PM
I think the problem maybe Grant.

I think he is the weakest player on the left in terms of his general play. I’d play Diangana or Robinson ahead of him on the left. I’m not saying he’s a bad player, but he doesn’t make much of a contribution beyond his goals whereas Diangana and Robinson can both offer more.

I’d probably start Diangana left, Grant central and Phillips right for a bit.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 24, 2021, 01:58:34 PM
what's that got to do with Robinson being labelled as proven at this level?
Nothing whatsoever.
It was merely a tongue in cheek jibe at Hugill's current attributes, it was not aimed at you in any way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 24, 2021, 02:12:08 PM
Nothing whatsoever.
It was merely a tongue in cheek jibe at Hugill's current attributes, it was not aimed at you in any way.

Fair enough, Seteefeet.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dexy on November 24, 2021, 09:33:20 PM
Not enough numbers forward to implement an effective press. We were better last night. The way Val wants to press the ball requires us to have three up top. It's the 3-4-3 or 4-3-3, potentially a 4-4-2. Seeing as his methods are more aligned to principles of play, I'm not sure the system he uses will change too much.
Three up top and none look like scoring or getting any service , press or not its unbalanced .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on November 25, 2021, 10:33:12 AM
Depends what you mean by proven at this level. I'd say a goalscorer that is proven at this level would have a better than 1 in 4 goal rate across their career at this level. Robinson has scored 38 goals in 163 Championship games since 2015/16. Grant has a Championship record of 1 in 3 (28 in 84).
1 in 4 from wide left is double figures over a season.
Get someone doing the same from the right and a proper centre forward and your on the way to a decent forward line do you not agree?
At Preston Robinson regularly got double figures from that position
Grant had one good season in that position at Huddersfield, I'm not sure how many of his goals were pens?
I think if you look at his performances in that position for the ROI it shows he can do a job there more effectively than Grant or Diangana
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 25, 2021, 10:50:16 AM
1 in 4 from wide left is double figures over a season.
Get someone doing the same from the right and a proper centre forward and your on the way to a decent forward line do you not agree?
At Preston Robinson regularly got double figures from that position
Grant had one good season in that position at Huddersfield, I'm not sure how many of his goals were pens?
I think if you look at his performances in that position for the ROI it shows he can do a job there more effectively than Grant or Diangana

Not all his goals come from wide left though. 1 in 4 is over is whole career so far. For us he has 8 goals in 46 making it 1 in 5.75. Again I'm not sure that makes him "proven" at this level.

He got 10 or more goals twice in 4 season for Preston. I guess 50% is "regularly".

Grant's rate of 1 in 3 is across his whole career same as Robinson's 1 in 4 rate. Penalties still have to scored to count. Grant is also outscoring Robinson 2:1 this season and Grant has been involved in 10 goal activities (8 goals 2 assists) to Robinson's 8 (3 goals and 5 assists).

Don't  get me wrong I like Robinson and would rather see him playing wide left than Diangana, with Grant through the middle.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on November 25, 2021, 11:12:15 AM
Not all his goals come from wide left though. 1 in 4 is over is whole career so far. For us he has 8 goals in 46 making it 1 in 5.75. Again I'm not sure that makes him "proven" at this level.

He got 10 or more goals twice in 4 season for Preston. I guess 50% is "regularly".

Grant's rate of 1 in 3 is across his whole career same as Robinson's 1 in 4 rate. Penalties still have to scored to count. Grant is also outscoring Robinson 2:1 this season and Grant has been involved in 10 goal activities (8 goals 2 assists) to Robinson's 8 (3 goals and 5 assists).

Don't  get me wrong I like Robinson and would rather see him playing wide left than Diangana, with Grant through the middle.
You've obviously checked the stats so fair play.

I'd rather grant through the middle than Phillips or hugil but I don't think we have anyone with those natural predatory instincts like a Kevin Phillips hence why I think it would be worth giving one of the kids a try.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 25, 2021, 11:30:39 AM
Only Hugill is a genuine (I use that term loosely) No.9 and he is pants, but neither Grant, Phillips or Robbo are suited so I really would prefer to see a youngster given a go. I know they are raw and inexperienced, but sometimes they just grasp the opportunity. We really have nothing to lose at present because, whichever 5 forwards we play, none are performing.
GH needs to come back in at RWB as well, his worst performance, of late, was still better than Furlong's best.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on November 25, 2021, 11:36:34 AM
I'd rather grant through the middle than Phillips or hugil but I don't think we have anyone with those natural predatory instincts like a Kevin Phillips hence why I think it would be worth giving one of the kids a try.

I don't know about giving the kids the chance as none of them have been scoring regularly for the U23's, Faal has 4 in 9, Windsor has 2 in 9 and Soule has 0 in 3. Cleary has 3 in 6 for U23's and has been scoring regularly for the U18's but would the Championship be a level too high? I guess we wouldn't know unless we gave it a try?

Our top scorer for the U23's is Zohore with 4 in 5 games.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on November 25, 2021, 11:45:03 AM
I don't know about giving the kids the chance as none of them have been scoring regularly for the U23's, Faal has 4 in 9, Windsor has 2 in 9 and Soule has 0 in 3. Cleary has 3 in 6 for U23's and has been scoring regularly for the U18's but would the Championship be a level too high? I guess we wouldn't know unless we gave it a try?

Our top scorer for the U23's is Zohore with 4 in 5 games.

That's our problem with trying 'the kids', they get a couple of games, fail to score and are immediately classed as no good by some on here. If they are no good, and our regulars cannot get on the scoresheet, there is clearly something wrong with the set up.

However, you cannot ignore Mr Z for much longer I would have thought.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on November 25, 2021, 12:36:45 PM
That's our problem with trying 'the kids', they get a couple of games, fail to score and are immediately classed as no good by some on here. If they are no good, and our regulars cannot get on the scoresheet, there is clearly something wrong with the set up.

However, you cannot ignore Mr Z for much longer I would have thought.
They don't have to be any good per se, they just have to be better than the current incumbents, which, let's face it, is not difficult. I would advocate Ken but he's injured.
I get your point and it is absolutely correct and I'm probably being fanciful, but, how great would it be for one of these kid's to step up, playing with better players (allegedly) and just going on a run, which could just start with a goal off the bench.

Berahino was talked about in the same vein before he got his chance and he grabbed it with both hands.
Gardner-Hickman certainly hasn't been overawed either although many doubted his readiness to step up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on November 25, 2021, 12:50:35 PM
They don't have to be any good per se, they just have to be better than the current incumbents, which, let's face it, is not difficult. I would advocate Ken but he's injured.
I get your point and it is absolutely correct and I'm probably being fanciful, but, how great would it be for one of these kid's to step up, playing with better players (allegedly) and just going on a run, which could just start with a goal off the bench.

Berahino was talked about in the same vein before he got his chance and he grabbed it with both hands.
Gardner-Hickman certainly hasn't been overawed either although many doubted his readiness to step up.

I would love to see that to be honest. Lets be fair, it was a very exciting time when Berahino broke into the first team. Shame about what happened after........

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 26, 2021, 04:02:16 PM
So I've stayed away from posting in thread for a few reasons, first I wanted to see how the team bedded into the system, and also just because I find chatter about formations quite repetitive.

That said, no manager should be wedded to a formation. It's just not how the game is played any more. Formations are useful for fans and pundits to get a general idea of where individuals will be on the pitch, but their roles and own abilities will shape how the game plays out. That is of course in addition to the game model the team is following.

So Val likes a 3-4-3. Say I like a 4-4-2.

I'm going to have:

Johnstone

O'Shea
Ajayi
Bartley
Townsend

Phillips
Molomby
Mowatt
Diangana

Robinson
Grant

As an example.

Now, we know that O'Shea isn't the best going forward, so he'll stay back when we have the ball, and Townsend can then get forward to attack a bit more.

Diangana is best when getting on the ball in advanced areas and dribbling towards the box, meanwhile Phillips can stay wide and slightly deeper to give width and crossing opportunities.

All of a sudden, if we have the ball, we're attacking with

O'Shea
Ajayi
Bartley

Phillips
Molomby
Mowatt
Townsend

Diagana
Grant
Robinson

It's a 3-4-3!

You could replace Phillips with Gardner-Hickman and it might even work a bit better! Likewise you could change Diangana for Reach or Snodgrass, and they can tuck into midfield and make a three, and you've got a 4-3-3.

The game isn't played like table football with rigid lines.

And that reminds me...you can press in pretty much any formation. A 4-4-2 is just an useful a pressing formation as 3-4-3, it just requires a different set up. Liverpool press with a 4-3-3, but it's not really a 4-3-3 because players are expected to move out of 'position' to press, hence you see TAA and Robertson high up the pitch pressing, even though they are 'full backs'.

Val can keep his principles, but flex his formation. He's shown he's willing to adapt because we've seen a drop-off in the press and a focus on keeping possession more even just in the short time he's been manager.

This is no pro or anti Val, and I don't really know why I started it, but I think we can get caught up saying "We should be playing a 4-3-3" when really we're saying "We're getting outnumbered in midfield". Well, then you can pull an attacker back when we don't have the ball. I don't know.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on November 26, 2021, 05:30:39 PM
I think that's a great post MarkW! I think the front 3 seems to be the issue because we're defending ok on the whole and we are creating chances but there's no cohesion from the front 3. I don't know, the fact we have full back that can drop back and go forward means we should never be too exposed but the high line exposes us a little.

Perhaps you're right about formations - that post has got me thinking...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 26, 2021, 06:00:12 PM
The main thing I'd question Mark is your final sentence.

'I think we can get caught up saying "We should be playing a 4-3-3" when really we're saying "We're getting outnumbered in midfield". Well, then you can pull an attacker back when we don't have the ball'.

I don't think pulling an attacker back tends to work as the attackers are not midfield specialists and probably not that positionally aware. We were often outnumbered in midfield when Pereira was in the the No 10 position. I've thought for a long time that we need a Morrison clone - someone who can play a proper midfield role but has attacking instincts to time runs into the box etc. Mowatt could probably do that but he's our best in the CM role also.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on November 26, 2021, 06:11:18 PM
I don't think pulling an attacker back tends to work as the attackers are not midfield specialists and probably not that positionally aware. We were often outnumbered in midfield when Pereira was in the the No 10 position. I've thought for a long time that we need a Morrison clone - someone who can play a proper midfield role but has attacking instincts to time runs into the box etc. Mowatt could probably do that but he's our best in the CM role also.
Molumby can also do that, as amply illustrated in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GimeoUDvX8). We need him fully fired up like this for us. If Molumby can generally play as he did in those clips, and Mowatt gets his fitness and sharpness back, we'll have an excellent midfield engine room IMO.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 26, 2021, 06:31:24 PM
Molumby can also do that, as amply illustrated in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GimeoUDvX8). We need him fully fired up like this for us. If Molumby can generally play as he did in those clips, and Mowatt gets his fitness and sharpness back, we'll have an excellent midfield engine room IMO.
Are you talking about a 2 man midfield engine room ... or 3 ? If it's a 2 then we always run the risk of being outgunned in midfield by teams that pack the midfield against us. We need the flexibility to play with a genuine 3 at least at times when the need is there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 26, 2021, 06:50:00 PM
Correct mate, playing with a 2 is too lightweight for us, we get overrun too often and with slow defenders it's a matter of time till the opposition run straight through on goal, minimum 3 in midfield
I know I keep banging on but 352 is for me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on November 27, 2021, 07:53:14 AM
Is there a good reason why we aren't giving somebody like Cleary a chance at this stage? Hugill has played 16/17 games now and has 1 goal. He has 6 goals in the last 2 seasons so is shot for confidence. Would a kid being given half an hour here or there really be a worse option? I reckon they take Hugill's late chance last night.

I will also once again say what I say every week, if we aren't creating enough good quality chances, why not make some changes to the formation? While we don't have enough  entrance midfielder next game to go 3 in the middle (with Livermore and Mulumby being thugs, Castro injured and Snodgrass in the bad books), but after that we really should be looking at what we can do with a 3 man midfield. Let's face it, we have stopped pressing like we did at the start if the season so we may as well try something different.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mini gaardsoe on November 27, 2021, 07:57:38 AM
so is shot for confidence

Bet this shot went over too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on November 27, 2021, 08:43:26 AM
The "system" is dead in the water.  We are surrendering the middle of the park, which might just work if the wide players could hold onto the ball, or maybe even be allowed to step into midfield more, but Val seems to be as rigid as Pulis on this.  Busted flush.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Groovephil on November 27, 2021, 09:09:17 AM
The worry is that for most fans it is painfully obvious the issue, the system and the players in it. But old stubborn Val either won’t change it or doesn’t see it.

I’d certainly add another Midfielder and try and control the middle of the park instead of just rushing it through.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 27, 2021, 09:47:46 AM
...
And that reminds me...you can press in pretty much any formation. A 4-4-2 is just an useful a pressing formation as 3-4-3, it just requires a different set up. Liverpool press with a 4-3-3, but it's not really a 4-3-3 because players are expected to move out of 'position' to press, hence you see TAA and Robertson high up the pitch pressing, even though they are 'full backs'.

Val can keep his principles, but flex his formation. He's shown he's willing to adapt because we've seen a drop-off in the press and a focus on keeping possession more even just in the short time he's been manager.

This is no pro or anti Val, and I don't really know why I started it, but I think we can get caught up saying "We should be playing a 4-3-3" when really we're saying "We're getting outnumbered in midfield". Well, then you can pull an attacker back when we don't have the ball. I don't know.

I understand what you're saying; it's about the need to adapt flexibly to the situation on the pitch.  Perhaps we need to look at formations not as rigid positions but the distribution of types of player on the pitch.  We need three proper midfielders not converted full backs or pulled back forwards - although the latter need to track back.

So regardless of wherever on the pitch they're playing at any one time  4-3-3 should mean 3 genuine midfielders.  3-4-3 in Val's terms seems to mean just two and quite often those are not that energetic.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on November 27, 2021, 10:44:59 AM
The "system" is dead in the water.  We are surrendering the middle of the park, which might just work if the wide players could hold onto the ball, or maybe even be allowed to step into midfield more, but Val seems to be as rigid as Pulis on this.  Busted flush.
We continue to have many more attempts on goal than the opposition in games and we're having much more possession than we had earlier in the season, both of which suggest that we aren't surrendering anything. Our play in the final third has deteriorated since the Bristol City game, but we'd be near or in the top two if it wasn't for that one area.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mini gaardsoe on November 27, 2021, 01:36:02 PM
We should be having more possession, the teams were playing are garbage. Awful tactics and no room for any tweaks. Sunday league stuff.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on November 27, 2021, 01:51:36 PM
One big issue for me comes from the areas of the pitch our front 3 are receiving the ball in. Ideally you want Hugill and Grant in particular to receive the ball in or around the box, however that rarely happens. Instead our front 3 are generally receiving the ball about 45 yards away from goal, sometimes even on the half way line. That means they are expected to do a lot more with the ball to make a chance for either themselves or their team mates.

While Robinson and Phillips probably should be able to do more, both Grant and Hugill are basically Strikers, with Grant being more useful cutting in from a wide position.

What this front 3 really needs in addition to a goal scoring centre forward is a Harvey Barnes style player. Somebody who is both direct with his running, taking players on, but also who had the ability to create chances for other players. Seeing as we don't seem to have any more to spend on permanent players (and don't have the scouts to pull a rabbit out of the hat), it looks like we are praying for 1 or 2 miracle loan deals from a top flight academy.

Atleast we have controlled the last 2 games a bit more, which possibly shows what having 2 slightly more attacking centre mids brings to the side. They just don't bring enough to create a surplus of very good chances.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on November 27, 2021, 02:36:51 PM
The following comparison of goal attempts with top of the table Fulham might be of interest (includes Fulham's game today):

AlbionFulham
Total Goal Attempts317329
Outside Box104109
Inside 6 Yard Box4230
In Penalty Area171190
On Target96120
Off Target130128
Hit Woodwork711
Blocked9181
Right Foot Shots143169
Left Foot Shots95101
Headed Goal Attempts7958

Source: Whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)

Some stand-out points from the stats:
Fulham only managed 9 goal attempts (2 on target) in their draw at Preston today (Mitrovic was playing). Preston had 15 goal attempts with 4 on target. Fulham only had 2 goal attempts in the whole of the second half; in fact they only had 2 goal attempts after the 27th minute. Now that is boring!  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on November 27, 2021, 09:22:17 PM
Obviously I should content myself with simple "he's rubbish....we're rubbish...sack the lot" type posts and not spend any more time on it than that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 27, 2021, 09:46:39 PM
Obviously I should content myself with simple "he's rubbish....we're rubbish...sack the lot" type posts and not spend any more time on it than that.
I think your post was pushing attention spans on a Saturday night  ;) It takes a bit of time to draw conclusions from....which I haven't spent yet. It is an interesting comparison though thanks.
The fact that we are so clearly ahead on the attempts inside the 6 yard box and 2nd to Cardiff on headed attempts says a lot about the main tactic especially early season of sticking it 'into the mix' from set pieces. I struggle to think of too many headed attempts which are from open play. So if you take our headed/scrambled attempts out of it for a second it probably demonstrates that Fulham have created a lot more and had many more attempts from open play, which is no surprise.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 28, 2021, 08:08:09 AM
2 up top and play a play maker. We have too much going on outwide to get crosses in to absolutely nobody 99% of the time.

Could also argue we could go reach left side as he is more likely to get us a goal. (Be harsh on Townsend im aware) also TGH deserves a run right side (the long throw isnt working so not as worthy of his spot for me at moment Furlong)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 28, 2021, 08:39:49 AM
2 up top and play a play maker. We have too much going on outwide to get crosses in to absolutely nobody 99% of the time.

Could also argue we could go reach left side as he is more likely to get us a goal. (Be harsh on Townsend im aware) also TGH deserves a run right side (the long throw isnt working so not as worthy of his spot for me at moment Furlong)

Personally, I'd go two up top with the players we have but Val just won't. He will not stray from this 343. 343 is the in fashion system at the moment, loads of coaches are going that way. I'm not keen on it but that might be because we don't really have the players that suit it.

TGH absolutely should be replacing Furlong who has been really poor for a good while now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on November 28, 2021, 08:40:41 AM
Obviously I should content myself with simple "he's rubbish....we're rubbish...sack the lot" type posts and not spend any more time on it than that.

The analysis is interesting and worrying to be honest, because it basically confirms that we couldn't hit a cows **** with a banjo. The two stats that really count are the goals scored and points gained. Your analysis [and thank you for it] confirms that we need a striker, or does it? Two years ago under Bilic I seem to remember that every player bar Sam scored [and we were a joy to watch], and even though several of those players are still with us we are looking for someone who actually knows where the goal is. Whilst I would welcome a decent striker with a proven goal scoring record at the club, I don't honestly think that it will solve our problems.
As someone else has posted, we are 18th in the championship on our current form, now that's not impressive for a team and owner hell bent on getting back into the greed league for his/their own financial purposes. I mentioned form the other week and got a sarcastic reply back, but its a fact. We are in woeful form and clinging desperately onto 3rd, teams below us are finding form and soon we will drop unless something changes. We are half way through the season now and I have given up waiting for the system to 'click'. Personally I think he has lost the dressing room and our only direction of travel now is down.

So something has to change Worcs.

Thank you for your hard work though   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 28, 2021, 09:17:03 AM
I agree in a way with beechyboy, I've said all along this squad lends itself to a 352 formation
The cm is Mowett
2 up top Robbo & Grant
Townsend Diangana Molumby Philips
Clarke Ajayi Gardner H
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on November 28, 2021, 09:37:51 AM
The following comparison of goal attempts with top of the table Fulham might be of interest (includes Fulham's game today):

AlbionFulham
Total Goal Attempts317329
Outside Box104109
Inside 6 Yard Box4230
In Penalty Area171190
On Target96120
Off Target130128
Hit Woodwork711
Blocked9181
Right Foot Shots143169
Left Foot Shots95101
Headed Goal Attempts7958

Source: Whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)

Some stand-out points from the stats:
  • Ourselves (317) and Fulham (329) have the highest number of goal attempts in the division. Third is QPR (251).
  • Only Fulham (120) have had more goal attempts on target (not counting blocked) than us (96).
  • We've had the most off target goal attempts (130) in the division; Fulham have the next highest (128). Third is Birmingham (104), but they've had 89 fewer goal attempts overall than us.
  • We've had more blocked goal attempts (91) than anyone else in the division. The next highest is Coventry (80).
  • We've had more goal attempts inside the 6 yard box (42) than anyone else in the division. The next highest is Cardiff (32).
  • Only Cardiff (90) have had more headed goal attempts than us (79).
Fulham only managed 9 goal attempts (2 on target) in their draw at Preston today (Mitrovic was playing). Preston had 15 goal attempts with 4 on target. Fulham only had 2 goal attempts in the whole of the second half; in fact they only had 2 goal attempts after the 27th minute. Now that is boring!  ;D

I think this is quite interesting, and when consider it with our poor  recent xG it seems to add weight to the fact that a goal scorer would change everything. Only once have we lost by more than one goal so a goal scorer with even a modest output is turning losses in to draws and draws in to wins. 

A goal scorer also changes games in the moment and means teams have to change in the game against us, and I think that would also go a long way to change the views on the entertainment served up. 

I’ve said for weeks we are close to being a good side at this level, but is this aided by val, or in spite of him. He’s not helping himself.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 28, 2021, 10:28:53 AM
I agree in a way with beechyboy, I've said all along this squad lends itself to a 352 formation
The cm is Mowett
2 up top Robbo & Grant
Townsend Diangana Molumby Philips
Clarke Ajayi Gardner H

You'd play Diangana in centre midfield?!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 28, 2021, 10:35:18 AM
Obviously I should content myself with simple "he's rubbish....we're rubbish...sack the lot" type posts and not spend any more time on it than that.

Don't want to fill the page up with your post, but it's that I'm replying to.

Numbers of shots is fine, but we need to know how good those shots were. I know people here are resistant to it, but xG is the answer here:

https://experimental361.com/2021/11/25/expected-goals-table-championship-23-24-nov-2021/

This is a league table based on xG - we're second and Bournemouth are nowhere.

What does this mean? It means we should be doing better than we are (shock), maybe we've been a little unfortunate in recent games. I don't get to watch full games so I try not to make opinions on Val or the football, but the highlights show either poor finishing or poor decision making - Furlong and Hugill both spooned over from good positions Vs Forest, and Townsend blazed over from 30 yards when we had the chance to attack a disorganised defence.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 28, 2021, 11:05:47 AM
Hi Mark, yes I definitely would play Diangana in midfield, he has great control and runs at people, he'll have a little more room than being stuck out wide
That's my formation and my team and I'm sticking to it mate
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 28, 2021, 10:03:55 PM
Hi Mark, yes I definitely would play Diangana in midfield, he has great control and runs at people, he'll have a little more room than being stuck out wide
That's my formation and my team and I'm sticking to it mate
I assume you are talking about Diangana in an advanced midfield role so more of a No 10 role in Pereira fashion ? That's fair enough and it could be worth a try to get something going on occasions. I wouldn't be in favour personally as it would still basically be a 2 man midfield of Mowatt and Molumby. Diangana would be a very attacking number 10 in a similar way that Pereira was i.e. I doubt he'd do much of the grafting side of the midfield job when that is needed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 28, 2021, 11:13:49 PM
Hi mate, your forgetting both of our full backs who can make up the 5
Its an attacking and defensive set up, that's my point
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 29, 2021, 09:39:26 AM
Hi Mark, yes I definitely would play Diangana in midfield, he has great control and runs at people, he'll have a little more room than being stuck out wide
That's my formation and my team and I'm sticking to it mate

Has Diangana ever demonstrated that he can link up play and make good forward passes?  He just seems to run until he's dispossessed or has to pass square.  Mind you we've tried everything else with the squad save bringing in an academy player.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 29, 2021, 11:41:51 AM
Hi mate, your forgetting both of our full backs who can make up the 5
Its an attacking and defensive set up, that's my point
Fair enough I hadn't forgotten them but in theory the fullbacks/wingbacks can do that now. Your formation isn't that clear from your post but aren't you basically saying Diangana plays centrally as a 10 in front of Mowatt and Molumby with 2 up top ? It's still a back 3 with wing backs. I'm not saying this is bad by the way - it's an opinion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on November 29, 2021, 02:59:28 PM
Yes I am saying that diang is number 10
In front of Mowett and mulomby
With our 2 full backs pushed in alongside them to go up and down
With 3 at the back
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on November 29, 2021, 04:36:16 PM
Yes I am saying that diang is number 10
In front of Mowett and mulomby
With our 2 full backs pushed in alongside them to go up and down
With 3 at the back

Sounds a lot like 3-4-3 but with our forwards inverted to how they are at the moment! ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on November 29, 2021, 04:48:34 PM
Sounds as if it might work but the wing backs will need to do more than just sling crosses in. In fact there is no point in anybody getting wide just to cross the ball, there won't be anything in the box. Need to be able to pass the ball, to get it back from wide forward to strikers coming in for a shot. Maybe we do have the players to make it work, because e don't have any of the other sort
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on November 29, 2021, 05:05:52 PM
The analysis is interesting and worrying to be honest, because it basically confirms that we couldn't hit a cows **** with a banjo. The two stats that really count are the goals scored and points gained. Your analysis [and thank you for it] confirms that we need a striker, or does it? Two years ago under Bilic I seem to remember that every player bar Sam scored [and we were a joy to watch], and even though several of those players are still with us we are looking for someone who actually knows where the goal is. Whilst I would welcome a decent striker with a proven goal scoring record at the club,


Two years ago the goals were spread out yes, but we had a little magician who contributed 17!! Assists.  Next highest was Grady and Phillips with 6.  That tells you how important MP was to that promotion. 

So maybe without that bit of extra quality MP offered we are creating lots of chances, but more half chances?  Well, we wont find another MP but decent goalscorers make the most of the half chances.  I may have rose tinted's on but can you imagine either of the Supes in this team with the crosses flying in?  Even Gayle or JRod.

Ps.  A lot of fans are clamouring for CR7 as the answer but his scoring ratio at this level is no better than HRK or CA in an Albion shirt.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on December 04, 2021, 06:54:55 PM
I wasn't sure what was the best thread to post this in, but settled on this one. Fun fact: our next 5 games, taking us up to and including Jan 2nd, are all against sides that are currently in the bottom 7 - Reading (H), Barnsley (A), Derby (A), Preston (H) and Cardiff (H).

We also only have to play 2 games in the next 22 days before we play Derby on Dec 27th...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on December 04, 2021, 09:37:57 PM
Today v Cov we didn't seem to rely so much on Furlong and Townsend's crosses for creating chances. Grant's goal from Robinson's through pass is what I want to see much more of. Grant had a similar situation later which didn't quite come off.

As I've said for weeks now, we need players who can play through passes along the floor into the path of oncoming forwards (and midfielders). It obviously also needs players who can anticipate and make the runs forward. I didn't think Grant possessed that ability, but he proved me wrong today. Robinson also deserves credit, and I think TGH could be a player who can make those sort of passes, as can Mowatt.
We can't just rely on Furlong and Townsend, especially when we have forwards who are not great at heading. 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 05, 2021, 05:38:53 PM
I think that TGH is a better prospect at CM than Molumby.  The latter is probably a more experienced defender (albeit a tad rash) but Gardner-Hickman plays some good forward balls; defending is an easier skill to learn than attacking. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on December 05, 2021, 06:27:57 PM
I wasn't sure what was the best thread to post this in, but settled on this one. Fun fact: our next 5 games, taking us up to and including Jan 2nd, are all against sides that are currently in the bottom 7 - Reading (H), Barnsley (A), Derby (A), Preston (H) and Cardiff (H).

We also only have to play 2 games in the next 22 days before we play Derby on Dec 27th...
By the time we play Derby I think we will have played 5 out of 7 away from home
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on December 05, 2021, 06:39:56 PM
Yesterday I believe was the correct template of how Ismael wants to play.

With a fast energetic midfield we hassled and harried the opposition into mistakes which allowed control of the game.

Gardner-Hickman has shown up the limitations of Livermore and Snodgrass.

2 seasons ago it was the brilliance of Pereira really that got us promoted, without him we'd have been at least 10 pts worse off. The time she was shackled we struggled big time in games.

I don't want to see us play in a low defensive block any more.  It's unambitious and extremely boring to watch.

The only way Ismael can bring problems back onto himself if we revert back to the stagnant midfield we've had between mid September and mid November.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 06, 2021, 09:13:29 AM
I'm not an anti-Livermore person, he's a reasonable defensive midfielder and enthusiastic organiser but would it set a bad example to the rest of the squad if Ishmael brought him straight back into the starting line-up  after the decent midfield performance against Coventry?
Perhaps TGH should move across to RWB.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on December 06, 2021, 10:33:18 AM
Today v Cov we didn't seem to rely so much on Furlong and Townsend's crosses for creating chances. Grant's goal from Robinson's through pass is what I want to see much more of. Grant had a similar situation later which didn't quite come off.

As I've said for weeks now, we need players who can play through passes along the floor into the path of oncoming forwards (and midfielders). It obviously also needs players who can anticipate and make the runs forward. I didn't think Grant possessed that ability, but he proved me wrong today. Robinson also deserves credit, and I think TGH could be a player who can make those sort of passes, as can Mowatt.
We can't just rely on Furlong and Townsend, especially when we have forwards who are not great at heading.
Yes that's fair comment. The coaching staff have been accused of being inflexible but we clearly worked on some different approaches before the Coventry game. I've mentioned it elsewhere, Grant did make another similar run 10 minutes after he scored but Robinson delayed sliding a simple pass into him and all momentum was lost.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 06, 2021, 12:48:44 PM
Yes that's fair comment. The coaching staff have been accused of being inflexible but we clearly worked on some different approaches before the Coventry game. I've mentioned it elsewhere, Grant did make another similar run 10 minutes after he scored but Robinson delayed sliding a simple pass into him and all momentum was lost.

He did indeed. If not for poor decision making by Robbo it would have been 3-0 at half time. Much, much better display.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on December 27, 2021, 09:28:23 PM
As the window is on us i thought i would resurface this one...

We are desperate for a goal scorer if not 2 centre forwards. We also need a cm to play with mowatt.

If we could send hugil back, and get snodgrass off the books maybe Zohore too and replace with better thats an ideal window.

I also think we should cash in on johnstone if necessary he is trying to go for free in summer as it stands.

My team as of now with current squad would be:

                 Goalkeeper
           Kipre Bartley Clarke
TGH mowatt Livermore Townsend
     Diangana Robinson Grant

Oshea would come in for kipre or bartley when fit.
New cm would replace livermore if we could sign somebody better. Livermore not good enough but better than molumby. Phillips if fit plays right forward. And a new cf would come in for CR7.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Barrington on January 02, 2022, 05:00:44 PM
We need a new look (subject to availability):

                                              Johnstone/Button

      O'Shea                     Bartley                          Clarke                         Townsend




                                  Gardner-H                          Mowatt


                                                         Phillips


                          Robinson                                                Grant


                                                          Dike


Not ideal, but we need to get more wins.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alwaysbilly on January 02, 2022, 07:51:31 PM
System = not sure we have one 
Tactics = sussed, teams won’t set up against us like they did Barnsley
Personnel = worst squad for 20 years, top 10 champ at best

Sad days
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: ashdoy on January 03, 2022, 11:34:28 AM
I have never seen a team pass sideways so much. With absolutely no aim of unlocking the opposition.

There was a time yesterday the ball went across each of the 5 members of the back lines 3 times. That is ridiculous.

It doesn’t help when those 5 have 5 static players in front of them and the front 3 can’t control or hold it up.

Awful awful awful system.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on January 03, 2022, 11:50:07 AM
It’s simply indefensible now, no press, awful passing, flanks overloaded, crossing and set pieces beyond terrible.
I’ve genuinely no clue what we are trying to do and I don’t believe the players of even  Val himself do either. It’s just shambolic
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 03, 2022, 11:56:56 AM
System = not sure we have one 
Tactics = sussed, teams won’t set up against us like they did Barnsley
Personnel = worst squad for 20 years, top 10 champ at best

Sad days

So a top 10 squad (at best) is 4th, with no system?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on January 03, 2022, 12:06:46 PM
Playing devil's advocate is it the system that's wrong the players or both?
Like any system, it will work better with better players employed to carry out that system we have had to play all season with a major cog missing I will watch with interest to see what difference DD makes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on January 03, 2022, 12:23:23 PM
Playing devil's advocate is it the system that's wrong the players or both?
Like any system, it will work better with better players employed to carry out that system we have had to play all season with a major cog missing I will watch with interest to see what difference DD makes.

I think it’s a mixture of both the system and the players.

I have no issue with this system providing it suits our players. I would prefer the manager to be flexible with this based on what is happening during a game. He is entirely predictable.

Our forward line look extremely uncomfortable playing this way and our midfield is often overrun which is not helped by them being immobile.

The bigger issue is that we’ve seemingly changed the way we wanted to play during the first half of this season and we now have a total mish mash with no clear way of playing or what we’re intending to do.

I believe that having Molumby in a midfield three would make a positive difference in my view.

I will say though that we look good defensively which I would hope given we often have 8 defensively minded players.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Lara Crofts Butler on January 03, 2022, 12:41:00 PM
Part of me really is starting to wonder and feel like the manager, the tactics all of it isn't really to blame and we could have prime SAF taking charge of this lot and the results wouldn't be much different.  I really struggle to see much quality in this group of players and some recent childish social media posts and ill-discipline in the squad makes me feel there's a few bad eggs there.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 03, 2022, 01:47:57 PM
For those who want three in the middle more regularly with the current squad. What do you think it gives us?

Other than the odd occasion we have been overrun, I’m not sure what it adds. We don’t need more possession or more control of games. Three in middle is likely to just lead to more sideways passing. Adding Molumby to Livermore and Mowatt centrally wouldn’t have given us an additional goal threat, and would have meant we didn’t have a centre midfielder on the bench (given Snodgrass looks to be exiled).



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on January 03, 2022, 02:14:25 PM
For those who want three in the middle more regularly with the current squad. What do you think it gives us?

Other than the odd occasion we have been overrun, I’m not sure what it adds. We don’t need more possession or more control of games. Three in middle is likely to just lead to more sideways passing. Adding Molumby to Livermore and Mowatt centrally wouldn’t have given us an additional goal threat, and would have meant we didn’t have a centre midfielder on the bench (given Snodgrass looks to be exiled).
I prefer 3 in the middle with one less upfront, one of the three would have to be attacked-minded looking for the space that two upfront with give you.
Also when out of possession we should be a bit more solid and not so easy to play through.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WorcsWBA on January 03, 2022, 04:08:42 PM
The passing to the forwards has become dismal of late - the central midfielders aren't looking to be creative enough and the wing-backs, who are absolutely vital to the success/failure of Val's system, have become incapable of crossing. So may of our crosses are played high when our forward's strengths are on the ground.

Whilst our aerial threat will become greater with Dike, the current standard of our crossing means that he'd need to be 15 feet tall to be able to profit from them. If Townsend, Furlong and Gardner-Hickman can't do better, we'll need to look to bring someone in who can.

Oh, and our attacking set pieces, which we looked a constant threat from earlier in the season, have completely gone to pot as well. Some renewed work on these on the training ground is warranted.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on January 03, 2022, 11:11:10 PM
Every manager playing us knows exactly what to work on in training, our predictability is a problem. Average teams can negate us and do week in, week out it’s pathetic really as it’s so avoidable
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on January 03, 2022, 11:19:46 PM
For those who want three in the middle more regularly with the current squad. What do you think it gives us?

Other than the odd occasion we have been overrun, I’m not sure what it adds. We don’t need more possession or more control of games. Three in middle is likely to just lead to more sideways passing. Adding Molumby to Livermore and Mowatt centrally wouldn’t have given us an additional goal threat, and would have meant we didn’t have a centre midfielder on the bench (given Snodgrass looks to be exiled).

The extra midfielder would be a number 10 style player for me.  You could have 2 of Livermore/Mowatt/Moloumby to do the hard graft in there freeing up someone to be more adventurous.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 03, 2022, 11:32:47 PM
For those who want three in the middle more regularly with the current squad. What do you think it gives us?

Other than the odd occasion we have been overrun, I’m not sure what it adds. We don’t need more possession or more control of games. Three in middle is likely to just lead to more sideways passing. Adding Molumby to Livermore and Mowatt centrally wouldn’t have given us an additional goal threat, and would have meant we didn’t have a centre midfielder on the bench (given Snodgrass looks to be exiled).

Boinging-along has already touched on it, but for me the 3 in the middle would allow you to play somebody in a more advanced position who had more responsibility for "picking the lock" as it were. It also (pre Dike) suited our front men better as it would have allowed Grant, Robinson and Phillips to play as wide forwards or as a two, rather than one of them playing out of position as a number 9.

We dominate possession vs most teams we play and teams sit deep against us, but both Mowatt and Livermore are most at home as sitting midfielders. Neither of them are ever going to be the lead playmaker in a well balanced midfield and so the third man - maybe that could have been Molumby, Snodgrass or even Castro - would have potentially taken on more of that responsibility.

It might have had no impact at all, but atleast it would have been something worth trying instead of repeating the groundhog day of the first half of the season and it wouldn't have meant Ismael having to go against his principles of having 3 at the back. It was the only tactical flexibility available to him and at times it appears he used a variation at Barnsley and LASK.

As it happens, with Dike now arriving as a true centre forward, I think its less likely the 3 in the midfield works as well. I still wouldn't rule it out but for now Dike will justifiably be afforded some time at the head of a front 3 where his supporting cast will now be back in their more familiar positions.

Not sure how the creativity issue changes though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 04, 2022, 06:23:42 AM
If Townsend, Furlong and Gardner-Hickman can't do better, we'll need to look to bring someone in who can.

This is why I've been advocating for Phillips at rwb all season, he wad good there under Moore. I do think the Dike signing will help with the crossing though, there'll be a target and just as important, someone with the clever movement in the box to turn some crosses in to a chance.

On the wider issue, I think the Dike signing will be huge for us. I think we do need to find a left footed attacking player, to play on the right of the three, who has the attributes of a no.10, ie someone that can create and beat a man. I've seen people say that there isn't room for that in our system but I can think of plenty of goals this year where players have dropped in and played through balls in behind that have resulted in goals, with a better quality of player doing it, we could see more. It would also help against teams with a low block. In addition to this, the reading I've done about Dike suggests he likes to drift to the right and we know that Grant likes to make that run in behind and inside so somebody dropping deep and creating from the right would have options to pick out you'd expect.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 06, 2022, 11:29:28 AM

We dominate possession vs most teams we play and teams sit deep against us, but both Mowatt and Livermore are most at home as sitting midfielders. Neither of them are ever going to be the lead playmaker in a well balanced midfield and so the third man - maybe that could have been Molumby, Snodgrass or even Castro - would have potentially taken on more of that responsibility.


I don't disagree that the right player in the hole may have worked, but I dont think we have that player. There has been nothing from Molumby to suggest he is a creative type, and nothing from Castro to suggest he's good enough to play at this level yet.  He is 21 in a few months and never played a league game at any level as far as I can see.

The one who maybe could have done it at times is Snodgrass, but he's barely played for a year, is coming to the end of his career and has fallen out of favour. He may not have fallen out of favour if we had tried it, but I'm, not sure. he is the answer.

The most obvious player we have to play the AM/10 is Callum Robinson, and he has actually dropped back and tried to do it at times but unsuccessfully. 

I agree could do with a creative type. I've mentioned his name elsewhere, but I'd try and find the rumored £1m - £2m it will take to sign Matt O'Riley.

If we could end this window with Griffiths, O'Shea, TGH, Riley and Dike who are young and full of potential and Grady, Grant, Kipre and Mowatt that are good ages, all on decent contracts I think there would be reasons to be optimistic about the future.

Talking about the wider squad, what's happened to Standaman and his player, position, age and contract graphics?





Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 06, 2022, 01:34:56 PM
God knows where Stan's gone, would have enjoyed his weekly transfer round up right around now   ;D.

The Express and Star Albion podcasts with Joe Masi was a great listen this week. You can tell this season has worn him down on twitter with some of the tweets he gets, but he answered a few questions about tactical flexibility with Ismael and confirmed that Yes - him, Steve Madeley and Joe Chapman have asked on a number of occasions in their small press conferences about Val's view around tactical/formation tweaks (he says he has written about it a few times in the E and S).

Ismael's view is that 343 is a flexible formation that provides answers to the majority of issues you will encounter in a match. He says you can push full backs forward to become auxiliary wingers, you can have one of your front 3 dropping deeper and being a quasi-playmaker, you can make one of your centre backs into a Chris Wilder-style overlapping winger. He also said Val said post Cardiff that our issue is that we don't have somebody taking up the positions in the  box that he needs his forward to when receiving crosses and this is what Dike will bring. Masi did say that with Ismael admitting he didn't have the players in the first half of the season for his system, it is a shame he hasn't tried to tailor things to fit what he has, but Ismael is that set on the players fully understanding their roles for the longer term, then he won't change.

Ultimately he feels that with Ismael, you probably need to buy into the long term vision (as he admits short term it hasn't been great). Does Val's system provide us with a blue print for establishing ourselves in the prem long term?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on January 06, 2022, 01:45:24 PM
Not going to say it does, but just maybe ... with the right players and a Leeds type approach we might just hold our own for a season or so. It's not an impossible dream but does need a complete buy in from ownership (whomsoever that is or will be) right down to the almost lapsed supporter like myself.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 06, 2022, 01:56:33 PM
God knows where Stan's gone, would have enjoyed his weekly transfer round up right around now   ;D.

The Express and Star Albion podcasts with Joe Masi was a great listen this week. You can tell this season has worn him down on twitter with some of the tweets he gets, but he answered a few questions about tactical flexibility with Ismael and confirmed that Yes - him, Steve Madeley and Joe Chapman have asked on a number of occasions in their small press conferences about Val's view around tactical/formation tweaks (he says he has written about it a few times in the E and S).

Ismael's view is that 352 is a flexible formation that provides answers to the majority of issues you will encounter in a match. He says you can push full backs forward to become auxiliary wingers, you can have one of your front 3 dropping deeper and being a quasi-playmaker, you can make one of your centre backs into a Chris Wilder-style overlapping winger. He also said Val said post Cardiff that our issue is that we don't have somebody taking up the positions in the  box that he needs his forward to when receiving crosses and this is what Dike will bring. Masi did say that with Ismael admitting he didn't have the players in the first half of the season for his system, it is a shame he hasn't tried to tailor things to fit what he has, but Ismael is that set on the players fully understanding their roles for the longer term, then he won't change.

Ultimately he feels that with Ismael, you probably need to buy into the long term vision (as he admits short term it hasn't been great). Does Val's system provide us with a blue print for establishing ourselves in the prem long term?

Good summary, this is the way I understand it.

I believe Ralf Ragnick & Valerien Ismael, were both from the same "school of football"

Ragnick is having similar problems at Man Utd, but with assets valued at around 20 times the value of ours.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 06, 2022, 03:40:39 PM
God knows where Stan's gone, would have enjoyed his weekly transfer round up right around now   ;D.

The Express and Star Albion podcasts with Joe Masi was a great listen this week. You can tell this season has worn him down on twitter with some of the tweets he gets, but he answered a few questions about tactical flexibility with Ismael and confirmed that Yes - him, Steve Madeley and Joe Chapman have asked on a number of occasions in their small press conferences about Val's view around tactical/formation tweaks (he says he has written about it a few times in the E and S).

Ismael's view is that 352 is a flexible formation that provides answers to the majority of issues you will encounter in a match. He says you can push full backs forward to become auxiliary wingers, you can have one of your front 3 dropping deeper and being a quasi-playmaker, you can make one of your centre backs into a Chris Wilder-style overlapping winger. He also said Val said post Cardiff that our issue is that we don't have somebody taking up the positions in the  box that he needs his forward to when receiving crosses and this is what Dike will bring. Masi did say that with Ismael admitting he didn't have the players in the first half of the season for his system, it is a shame he hasn't tried to tailor things to fit what he has, but Ismael is that set on the players fully understanding their roles for the longer term, then he won't change.

Ultimately he feels that with Ismael, you probably need to buy into the long term vision (as he admits short term it hasn't been great). Does Val's system provide us with a blue print for establishing ourselves in the prem long term?

I'll give it as listen.

Does it provide a blueprint, I honestly don't know. I don't know who's blueprint will though. As we saw after our last spell, I think a club like ours is only ever a bad summer, or manager change away from dropping out again even if we did have a period of relative success. I can't see anything but money changing that.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 06, 2022, 04:31:04 PM
I'll give it as listen.

Does it provide a blueprint, I honestly don't know. I don't know who's blueprint will though. As we saw after our last spell, I think a club like ours is only ever a bad summer, or manager change away from dropping out again even if we did have a period of relative success. I can't see anything but money changing that.

Tend to think that Leeds & Brentford are something of a blueprint, both did it without huge investment.

The problem is, we couldn't exactly replicate either, Leeds relative success was largely down to Bielsa & Brentfords to Rasmus Ankersen. Both men have stamped their own personalities into their respective positions.
We have to hope that Ismael can do the same for us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on January 06, 2022, 05:49:04 PM
Tend to think that Leeds & Brentford are something of a blueprint, both did it without huge investment.

The problem is, we couldn't exactly replicate either, Leeds relative success was largely down to Bielsa & Brentfords to Rasmus Ankersen. Both men have stamped their own personalities into their respective positions.
We have to hope that Ismael can do the same for us.

Depends what you consider to be a huge investment.  As I understand it the Brentford owner had actually invested over £100 million of his own money into the club at the point where they were promoted into the PL (covering annual losses + player investment) 

Granted, that's not a lot in the greed league but for a championship club that's a significant amount and £100 million more than our owners have/will contributed.  There are few, or possibly zero??, real blueprints of how to operate as a self financing club in the top division (or even this division).  Infact, our recent success is still something of a benchmark for others.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on January 06, 2022, 05:58:35 PM
Depends what you consider to be a huge investment.  As I understand it the Brentford owner had actually invested over £100 million of his own money into the club at the point where they were promoted into the PL (covering annual losses + player investment) 

Granted, that's not a lot in the greed league but for a championship club that's a significant amount and £100 million more than our owners have/will contributed.  There are few, or possibly zero??, real blueprints of how to operate as a self financing club in the top division (or even this division).  Infact, our recent success is still something of a benchmark for others.

I'm guessing most of that went on the new stadium and training facilities and not on ageing players like us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Oldbury24 on January 06, 2022, 06:06:40 PM
I'm guessing most of that went on the new stadium and training facilities and not on ageing players like us.

A bit of googling suggests that most of it was just covering annual losses untill they started making money on player investment.   

And that is certainly something that we can follow Brentfords lead on, and Val referenced it on his latest presser. 

He talked about creating capital assets for the club through recruitment of young players yet to reach there potential and development of academy players.  THe opposite of our recent obsession with signing experienced (for experienced read past it) pros with little potential resale value which was a horrible hangover from the Pullis years.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on January 06, 2022, 07:07:01 PM
Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on January 07, 2022, 07:07:53 AM
Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.
My view is that the plethora of red cards we seem able to accumulate are in the main due to our midfield constantly being swamped by the opposition midfielders and the consequent need for extreme actions to try and recover the ball by two tired, in the later stages of a game, and ageing midfielders
A flexible 352 could well be an answer
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 07, 2022, 08:45:17 AM
God knows where Stan's gone, would have enjoyed his weekly transfer round up right around now   ;D.

The Express and Star Albion podcasts with Joe Masi was a great listen this week. You can tell this season has worn him down on twitter with some of the tweets he gets, but he answered a few questions about tactical flexibility with Ismael and confirmed that Yes - him, Steve Madeley and Joe Chapman have asked on a number of occasions in their small press conferences about Val's view around tactical/formation tweaks (he says he has written about it a few times in the E and S).

Ismael's view is that 352 is a flexible formation that provides answers to the majority of issues you will encounter in a match. He says you can push full backs forward to become auxiliary wingers, you can have one of your front 3 dropping deeper and being a quasi-playmaker, you can make one of your centre backs into a Chris Wilder-style overlapping winger. He also said Val said post Cardiff that our issue is that we don't have somebody taking up the positions in the  box that he needs his forward to when receiving crosses and this is what Dike will bring. Masi did say that with Ismael admitting he didn't have the players in the first half of the season for his system, it is a shame he hasn't tried to tailor things to fit what he has, but Ismael is that set on the players fully understanding their roles for the longer term, then he won't change.

Ultimately he feels that with Ismael, you probably need to buy into the long term vision (as he admits short term it hasn't been great). Does Val's system provide us with a blue print for establishing ourselves in the prem long term?

Are you sure he said 3:5:2? Can't find anything other than 3:4:3 being the most flexible formation.


This is a good article on the advantages and disadvantages of the 3:4:3 formation.

https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/ (https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 07, 2022, 08:54:38 AM
Tend to think that Leeds & Brentford are something of a blueprint, both did it without huge investment.

The problem is, we couldn't exactly replicate either, Leeds relative success was largely down to Bielsa & Brentfords to Rasmus Ankersen. Both men have stamped their own personalities into their respective positions.
We have to hope that Ismael can do the same for us.

Leeds spent £100 million when they were first promoted according with no outgoings:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/leeds-united/transfers/verein/399/plus/?saison_id=2020&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 07, 2022, 09:12:14 AM
Leeds spent £100 million when they were first promoted according with no outgoings:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/leeds-united/transfers/verein/399/plus/?saison_id=2020&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

Personally, I wouldn't consider £100 million a huge investment, they could cover the transfer fees with media income from the EPL. Also it's likely that the high value players they bought would hold their value in the event of a sale.
Not something we could say with some of our recent purchases.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 07, 2022, 09:13:51 AM
Personally, I wouldn't consider £100 million a huge investment, they could cover the transfer fees with media income from the EPL. Also it's likely that the high value players they bought would hold their value in the event of a sale.
Not something we could say with some of our recent purchases.

It's all relative isn't it. If we had a 100m investment that would be almost unthinkable compared to what we are used to. Leeds definitely purchased their promotion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 07, 2022, 09:24:31 AM
It's all relative isn't it. If we had a 100m investment that would be almost unthinkable compared to what we are used to. Leeds definitely purchased their promotion.

But they didn't, that was money spent after their promotion in 20/21 season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 07, 2022, 09:26:51 AM
But they didn't, that was money spent after their promotion in 20/21 season.

You are right. I stand shamed!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 07, 2022, 09:44:20 AM
Regardless of when it was spent or how transfer fees are split over a number of seasons, I think that's still £60M more than Albion have ever committed to future outgoings in one transfer window (give or take a mouldy toffee covered in dust or two).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on January 07, 2022, 09:57:54 AM
Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 07, 2022, 10:11:17 AM
Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

Yeah Baggies just had a senior moment when typing. I didnt even notice it when I read it and knew he meant 3-4-3.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 07, 2022, 10:38:37 AM
Well well well, big Val has been listening to me then eh?
352 is my preferred set up, as ive said before it's an attacking and defensive set up, I'd love him to give it a try.

No Liver', apparently not chap  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on January 07, 2022, 12:55:58 PM
3-4-3

Opposition attacks  - wing backs drop back; one forward joins midfield -> 5-3-2

Attack repelled. Ball swung across to wing forward with his wing back advancing to support 4-4-2

More players join the attack  or press opposition defence  3-4-3

I don't think the theoretical formation matters as much as the middle four and perhaps one forward all being capable of playing multiple roles.  It used to be known as total football (cf Ajax)

You can have 3-5-2 but you can't effectively press with just two forwards.

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on January 07, 2022, 12:59:11 PM
Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

Wonder if part of the problem is that he sees us as having 4 midfielders, when I see us having 5 defenders with the occasional run forward from the wing backs.

Even if the wing backs get forward they end up occupying the same space as the two wide forwards.  So we still end up with 2 CM's and 1 forward in the middle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on January 07, 2022, 05:58:03 PM
This is why it's taking time to sink in. It requires a bit of a football brain to take up the right supporting positions and to time the runs. We don't have much of that, so it has to be drilled in by practice and more practice, but it is a poor second option to the natural instinct of 'the right players'.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 07, 2022, 07:02:47 PM
Are you sure he said 3:5:2? Can't find anything other than 3:4:3 being the most flexible formation.


This is a good article on the advantages and disadvantages of the 3:4:3 formation.

https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/ (https://fieldinsider.com/3-4-3-formation/)

Yeah it's 343 - it's me rushing when typing and not engaging my brain.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 07, 2022, 07:04:25 PM
Back to system/tactics/personnel.

There is no mention of Ismael saying he prefers 3-5-2 in the podcast at all, it's clearly mentioned that he won't deviate from his 3-4-3 (which we all know). It's between 46-49 mins on the podcast.

https://soundcloud.com/baggies-broadcast/season-5-episode-18-is-dike-going-to-be-albions-saviour

It was a typo on my behalf - we play 343 and he has no plans to deviate from it because he thinks it has all of the answers. I just didn't proof read when typing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on January 08, 2022, 06:44:25 PM
We now have Bartley, Bryan and O'Shea all injured, Ajayi at ANC and Kipre suspended.

Surely now its impossible to retain 3 CB's?  A change of system is required at least in the short term.

The best plan is for Livermore to play centre back until we get the full complement back.

TGH should play with Molumby, then Mowatt comes back in when the ban is over.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: frazzle on January 08, 2022, 06:47:02 PM
We now have Bartley, Bryan and O'Shea all injured, Ajayi at ANC and Kipre suspended.

Surely now its impossible to retain 3 CB's?  A change of system is required at least in the short term.

The best plan is for Livermore to play centre back until we get the full complement back.

TGH should play with Molumby, then Mowatt comes back in when the ban is over.

100% correct. And that would make us a better side in my view.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on January 08, 2022, 08:35:32 PM
that would work for me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 08, 2022, 08:56:43 PM
Suspensions mean Livermore at cb which might be a good thing for us as it forces improvement in cm.

Presume with no snodgrass of Zohore both are going at some point this window? Can we assume hugil is also going back?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 16, 2022, 05:51:54 AM
It's a shame Standaman isn't around anymore for many reasons but his squad updates with contract expiry dates were ace. I'm by no means writing off this season but should we not go up we would have to cut our costs slightly you'd expect but also would have to be looking at our costs once the parachute money dried up altogether in case we were still in the Championship. I think Livermore's contract expires in the summer which isn't very much like us, we've always handed out extensions to established players who are viewed ad good characters so wonder if that is the beginning of this contingency planning. We definitely moved on a lot of these type of players last year, Gibbs etc however would be good to know what we were losing salary wise in the summer, obviously Johnstone is another. You'd think losing those two alone would give some wriggle room.

EDIT: A quick look on transfernarkt reminded me that Snodgrass is due out too as well as Button (loanees too obviously), this should give some wriggle room for maneuver. Interestingly there are lots of expiring contracts in 2023, which would be the end of our parachute payments so hopefully we see some succession planning this summer with that in mind, either way. As has been advocated by others, whether that's a younger player or two that can be worked on our loaned out in order to be ready for the first team (think Mulumbu, Dorrans and Dawson from the past) or whatever, it would be glad to see.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 16, 2022, 10:41:42 AM
It's a shame Standaman isn't around anymore for many reasons but his squad updates with contract expiry dates were ace. I'm by no means writing off this season but should we not go up we would have to cut our costs slightly you'd expect but also would have to be looking at our costs once the parachute money dried up altogether in case we were still in the Championship. I think Livermore's contract expires in the summer which isn't very much like us, we've always handed out extensions to established players who are viewed ad good characters so wonder if that is the beginning of this contingency planning. We definitely moved on a lot of these type of players last year, Gibbs etc however would be good to know what we were losing salary wise in the summer, obviously Johnstone is another. You'd think losing those two alone would give some wriggle room.

EDIT: A quick look on transfernarkt reminded me that Snodgrass is due out too as well as Button (loanees too obviously), this should give some wriggle room for maneuver. Interestingly there are lots of expiring contracts in 2023, which would be the end of our parachute payments so hopefully we see some succession planning this summer with that in mind, either way. As has been advocated by others, whether that's a younger player or two that can be worked on our loaned out in order to be ready for the first team (think Mulumbu, Dorrans and Dawson from the past) or whatever, it would be glad to see.

This what you're after?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: caravanc58 on January 16, 2022, 11:34:16 AM
                                                                 Button

                               Oshea.                     Clarke                       Townsend

            TGH.                         Molumby.                  Mowatt.                        Diangana


                                                         Attacking midfielder

                                                Dike.                              Grant

If he won't try 442 this would be starting eleven. Would change the out of form  Diangana if another natural left sided player was available. Didn't go for Reach because I don't think it's working having him and Townsend in the same team.

 


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 16, 2022, 11:51:29 AM
It’s been said numerous times how important the wide midfielders are in this but we put so many crosses in to the stands, whether it’s Reach, Furlong or Townsend. At this level, in our side,  those two out wide need to be better attackers than defenders.  They are as big a problem as the front three and more so than our midfield two in my opinion.

QPR at least seemed to keep their crosses in play.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 16, 2022, 12:24:14 PM
This what you're after?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit?usp=drivesdk

Thank you Mark.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 04, 2022, 11:17:13 AM
Edited the Google Sheet here updated post window and with a few ages revised any obvious errors please flag.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit

I have left it in 3-4-3 and I am fairly sure Bruce won't go with that but I will switch it around once he settles on a shape.

I have been looking at the likely options given what we know about Brucieball

I've looked closely at his formations at Villa Sheffield Wednesday and Hull in the Championship for clues.

Generally it is either a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 he hasn't gone with a back 3 in the Championship, in the Premier League he has gone with a back 3 but it is basically the same structure as his standard 4-4-2 but swapping out a defender for a midfielder. It really plays like a
5-3-2 I cannot stress how defensive this formation is but I doubt we will see it in the short term.

There are some consistent features. The two central mids are always 6's in a double pivot how much licence they have to get forward depends on game state and opposition. He nearly always plays at least one target man striker and when he is playing a 4-4-2 he sometimes plays with two Centre Forwards. When he fields a 4-4-2 at least one of the wide players will tuck in. For instance at Sheffield Wednesday he played Adam Reach wide right for this very purpose.

The number 10 role in the 4-2-3-1. Bruce has used a number players in the role that don't scream "advanced playmaker" or "classic no 10" at you Gary Gardner at Villa Mohamed Diamé at Hull have both played there for him as did Lewis Grabban also at Villa.

So applying what we know to the current Albion squad what does that look like

4-4-2

Johnstone

Furlong
Bartley
Clarke
Townsend

Reach
Mowatt
Livermore
Phillips

Robinson
Carroll

4-2-3-1
 
Johnstone

Furlong
Bartley
Clarke
Townsend

Mowatt
Livermore

Phillips
Robinson
Diangana

Carroll

My view is that he will start by selecting the Senior pro's he might turn the youngsters through injury or loss of form but he will start with something similar to the above line ups.





Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on February 04, 2022, 11:38:18 AM
Think the latter is more likely but with Grant instead of one of Diangana, Phillips or Robinson
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 04, 2022, 11:43:02 AM
Think the latter is more likely but with Grant instead of one of Diangana, Phillips or Robinson

the other formation might be a 4-4-1-1 but how that works with our squad god knows !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 04, 2022, 12:01:21 PM
That 4-4-2 lineup is so dire it's untrue! Mediocrity all over the pitch.

Here's hoping he can get Diangana back on form
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 04, 2022, 12:03:10 PM
That 4-4-2 lineup is so dire it's untrue! Mediocrity all over the pitch.

Here's hoping he can get Diangana back on form

I think getting Grady back in form could be key to our season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Barrington on February 04, 2022, 12:14:41 PM
Any line-up with Furlong and Livermore in makes me feel bad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on February 04, 2022, 12:29:24 PM
Any line-up with Furlong and Livermore in makes me feel bad.

I think we have to give them all a clean slate to start, hopefully Steve can get make the more effective than they have been in the past.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tommcneill on February 04, 2022, 12:30:24 PM
I can see a 4-2-3-1 working with this squad
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 04, 2022, 12:32:36 PM
Isn't it just nice to have options though? It's a nice feeling to have and position to be in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 04, 2022, 12:35:43 PM
Isn't it just nice to have options though? It's a nice feeling to have and position to be in.

TO be able to guess the line-up was taken away from us by Val, I'm glad its back and also the subs at 60 mins will not be norm now either !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 04, 2022, 12:42:37 PM
TO be able to guess the line-up was taken away from us by Val, I'm glad its back and also the subs at 60 mins will not be norm now either !

Opposing managers are going to have to put some thinking into it now. Will be interesting to see how Bruce lines up his XI next week
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 04, 2022, 12:55:43 PM
The line ups were just a guess and for what it is worth I can't put an XI together made up of Senior Pro's that I would be entirely be happy with. I tend to agree we really haven't got a 4-4-2 that works but what I posted was my best stab.

However in terms of Bruce every player starts with a clean slate and he will turn to the Senior Pro's first only when they let him down or are injured will he look elsewhere. I said in the manager thread he will play Livermore I cannot see him doing anything else.

The other issue is what to do with Grant. My view is that he is a one trick pony and that trick is playing wide left in a 3. His work off the ball and his link up play isn't good enough in a 10 role nor is it good enough as a support striker in a 2. It will interesting to see if and how Bruce uses him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 04, 2022, 01:06:06 PM
This is the acid test now, we know the squad is not the best, but it should be better than we have seen over the last 3 months.

Livermore will instantly be more use in a 3, as will Mowatt and TGH should start.
Furlong has been poor but he's a (slightly) better fullback than wingback
Townsend was a solid left back who has regressed under Val and his system, so should improve
Grady, Grant, Robbo and Phillips have shown in flashes what they are capable of but it's been all too fleeting, hopefully a change in system will see it on show more often.

The only ones that really flourished under Val's system were the back 3 so, I suppose, there is a risk with going with a back 4, but I think we have enough to cope.

All in all, I just think a lot of the players, whilst never being world beaters, will be instantly more comfortable.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggiePhil on February 04, 2022, 01:17:47 PM
My team/formation would be made up of :                                             

                                                     Johnson

Furlong/ TGH                  Clarke/Ajai            Bartley                   Townsend/O'Shea

                                                    Livermore

                              TGH                                        Mowatt


Diagana                                                                                 Grant/Robinson

                                                       Carrol


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 04, 2022, 01:21:32 PM
I think i would go

                     SJ


O'Shea       Bartley    CLarke    Townsend

                    Livermore

             TGH     Mowatt

Grady/Robinson       Carroll           Grant



Or

                  SJ

O'SHea      Bartley     Clarke    Townsend

     TGH         Mowatt        Moloumby

      Diangana/Robbo    Carroll    Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggiePhil on February 04, 2022, 01:43:01 PM
I think i would go

                     SJ


O'Shea       Bartley    CLarke    Townsend

                    Livermore

             TGH     Mowatt

Grady/Robinson       Carroll           Grant



Or

                  SJ

O'SHea      Bartley     Clarke    Townsend

     TGH         Mowatt        Moloumby

      Diangana/Robbo    Carroll    Grant
I like your first line up best. If we have to play Livermore he is best as a defensive midfielder infront of a back 4. He can break up play, give short passes and leave the running and more creative play to the other mid fielders.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on February 04, 2022, 02:12:28 PM
 Johnson

Furlong/ TGH                  Clarke                  Bartley                   Townsend/O'Shea

                                                    Livermore

                              TGH                                        Mowatt

                                                 Robinson

              Diagana                                                                   Grant

                                                       Carrol
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Groovephil on February 04, 2022, 02:13:31 PM
I’ll be happy with just seeing some actual passing to players in the final third and goals.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 04, 2022, 02:15:15 PM
I like your first line up best. If we have to play Livermore he is best as a defensive midfielder infront of a back 4. He can break up play, give short passes and leave the running and more creative play to the other mid fielders.

If Livermore plays he has to be protected by 2 other CM's. It's the only way he can compete at his age now.

He's not a great passer but he's good at the defensive side as you say. If he plays then the midfield has to revolve around his strengths and not weakness.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 04, 2022, 02:16:35 PM
I think i would go

                     SJ


O'Shea       Bartley    CLarke    Townsend

                    Livermore

             TGH     Mowatt

Grady/Robinson       Carroll           Grant



Or

                  SJ

O'SHea      Bartley     Clarke    Townsend

     TGH         Mowatt        Moloumby

      Diangana/Robbo    Carroll    Grant
I like the first formation with possibly Grady or Robbo sitting slightly deeper  than the front two.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 04, 2022, 02:18:33 PM
Johnson

Furlong/ TGH                  Clarke                  Bartley                   Townsend/O'Shea

                                                    Livermore

                              TGH                                        Mowatt

                                                 Robinson

              Diagana                                                                   Grant

                                                       Carrol
Great if they let us have 12 players on the pitch  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 04, 2022, 02:29:54 PM
I'd be amazed if it's not 451 on Wednesday, might be a bit more adventurous if we were at home, but he won't want to lose this.
I'd go:

                     Button
  Furlong Bartley Clarke Townsend
Phillips TGH Livermore Mowatt Grant
                    Carroll

Not much scope for subs but Robbo and Grady to come on if we chasing, Ajayi or Mulumby if we are defending a lead.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 04, 2022, 02:33:52 PM
                               SJ

     O'Shea      Bartley     Clarke    Townsend
   (if truly fit - mustn't rush him)

     Molumby      Livermore   Mowatt
   (or TGH)

      Diangana    Carroll    Robinson

Interested to see how Mowatt does under Bruce
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 04, 2022, 02:34:16 PM
A clue to if we move away from 3-4-3 will be that the u23's play the same way at present and they have a game on Monday.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: seteefeet on February 05, 2022, 02:33:35 PM
Surprised how many are picking Johnstone.

After his Twitter "like" for Preston's goal, I would never play him again. It may have stemmed from his row with Val, but for me it was disrespectful to his team mates, our club and every fan.
Button has done well enough and is far braver than that coward anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 05, 2022, 02:43:40 PM
Surprised how many are picking Johnstone.

After his Twitter "like" for Preston's goal, I would never play him again. It may have stemmed from his row with Val, but for me it was disrespectful to his team mates, our club and every fan.
Button has done well enough and is far braver than that coward anyway.


My feelings exactly, but there again I have never been a Sam fan, so for me the sooner he is off the payroll the better. However I doubt he is a coward, just generally weak. Made a few glory saves on the tv and impressed some who ought to know better.  Has been directly at fault for a number of points lost over the whole time he has been here. He looked a little better at times early this season, but has not really improved from day one.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 05, 2022, 03:50:12 PM
Johnson

Furlong/ TGH                  Clarke                  Bartley                   Townsend/O'Shea

                                                    Livermore

                              TGH                                        Mowatt

                                                 Robinson

              Diagana                                                                   Grant

                                                       Carrol
this is what i would start with, Dropping O'shea in as soon as fit !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 05, 2022, 04:02:25 PM
Surprised how many are picking Johnstone.

After his Twitter "like" for Preston's goal, I would never play him again. It may have stemmed from his row with Val, but for me it was disrespectful to his team mates, our club and every fan.
Button has done well enough and is far braver than that coward anyway.
**** first I have heard of it that's disgraceful if I was a teammate I'd punch his lights out, I've never liked him always looks like he has a bad smell under his nose would let him rot for the rest of the season, **** him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 05, 2022, 04:05:53 PM
                                  Button

                 (O'Shea as soon as fit replaces either)
Furlong               (Bartley         Clarke)                 Townsend

                               Livermore

                TGH                                Mowatt

                                Robinson

Diangana                                                              Grant

                                 Carroll
 

Until Dike' fit then try to get both him and Carroll on the pitch
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 05, 2022, 04:33:45 PM
someone posted analysis the other day which showed that to achieve automatic promotion you need to get to 90 points, (our points total in 2019 was an aberration)

therefore we have 17 games left to accrue 45 points (2,6 PPG) so thats gone.
SB does however need to set up to win every game, draws are not going to cut it, hopefully the stats guys are all over this.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on February 05, 2022, 04:52:33 PM
this is what i would start with, Dropping O'shea in as soon as fit !

I had too many players!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 05, 2022, 04:55:42 PM
someone posted analysis the other day which showed that to achieve automatic promotion you need to get to 90 points, (our points total in 2019 was an aberration)

therefore we have 17 games left to accrue 45 points (2,6 PPG) so thats gone.
SB does however need to set up to win every game, draws are not going to cut it, hopefully the stats guys are all over this.
Currently, around 84/85 the points seem more evenly spread this season is still a tall order it's the old adage one game at a time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on February 05, 2022, 04:56:01 PM
                                  Button

                 (O'Shea as soon as fit replaces either)
Furlong               (Bartley         Clarke)                 Townsend

                               Livermore

                TGH                                Mowatt

                                Robinson

Diangana                                                              Grant

                                 Carroll
 

Until Dike' fit then try to get both him and Carroll on the pitch
I like this one ! 12 men should always give us a bit of a chance ! :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on February 05, 2022, 05:41:05 PM
I like this one ! 12 men should always give us a bit of a chance ! :D
I was just about to say something similar! Mind you, would half of the refs in this league even notice?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 05, 2022, 05:44:18 PM
I was just about to say something similar! Mind you, would half of the refs in this league even notice?

Only if it was the Albion who had twelve men, and only then because the numbers would be even on each side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 05, 2022, 10:22:05 PM
Took the words out of me laptop SmethDan.

Could never get used to counting more than ten because I used to run out of fingers and couldn't get me shoes off. Made it up to eleven sometimes , but not always, especially in the cold weather, or after swimming in the sea at Blackpool.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 06, 2022, 12:54:01 AM
                       Button
Furlong oshea clarke Townsend
Phillips Mowatt Livermore Diangana
                Robinson or Grant
                          Carroll

This is what i expect from Bruce.
I would prefer us 433 or 4231 i would avoid livermore being in team but I can't see it happening
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on February 06, 2022, 09:08:29 AM
As I’ve said before I think 442 could work with this side but Livermore would be a weak link in that line up. 4411 with Grant or Robinson in behind the striker wastes there little cutting in from the left trick (an amazing trick  :-X) but left CF as part of a 442 keeps them alive.

A 4231 certainly gets more out of this squad and we can have more people in their favoured positions.

Whatever we do I hope we don’t have inverted wingers as I feel we need to be more direct and will be more direct and I want to see Grady on the left and any one of Phillips/Grant/Robinson on the left.

Personally hope we go…

Johnstone (don’t really care if he likes a tweet by PNE)
O’Shea
Kipre
Clarke
Townsend

Livermore (we know he’ll be picked so I’ll bite the bullet)
TGH

Phillips
Mowatt
Grady

Carroll (Dike when fit)

Button, Bartley, Furlong, Molumby, Fellows, Grant, Robinson
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on February 06, 2022, 09:31:48 AM


Whatever we do I hope we don’t have inverted wingers as I feel we need to be more direct and will be more direct and I want to see Grady on the left and any one of Phillips/Grant/Robinson on the left.


[/quote]
Being in pedantic mode I think that’s too much of a left sided bias  ;D :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on February 06, 2022, 09:36:10 AM
It has to be 4-2-3-1 for me.

Johnstone
Furlong O’Shea Clarke Townsend
Mowatt Livermore
Diangana Robinson Grant
Carroll

I’d like to see TGH for Livermore but I think Bruce will love JL.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionFan on February 06, 2022, 10:52:10 AM
I'd like to see 4-4-1-1

Johnson
O'Shea, Livermore, Clark, Townsend
Robinson, TGH, Mowatt, Grant
Diangana
Carroll
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: caravanc58 on February 06, 2022, 11:01:31 AM
                                                          Button

                        O'shea.               Ajayi.            Clarke            Townsend

                                                         Livermore

                             TGH.                    Mowatt.                    Diangana

                                              Grant.                  Carroll.

Furlong and Kipre benched along with Robinson Molumby Johnson Bartley Fellows.




Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on February 06, 2022, 11:06:30 AM

Whatever we do I hope we don’t have inverted wingers as I feel we need to be more direct and will be more direct and I want to see Grady on the left and any one of Phillips/Grant/Robinson on the left.



Being in pedantic mode I think that’s too much of a left sided bias  ;D :D

I’ll do anything to avoid the right wing…haha yes I meant right!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 06, 2022, 11:17:07 AM
**** first I have heard of it that's disgraceful if I was a teammate I'd punch his lights out, I've never liked him always looks like he has a bad smell under his nose would let him rot for the rest of the season, **** him.

A massive over reaction from our lot on this.

Preston born, Preston fan likes a tweet about Preston.

Our issues are much bigger than what our keeper likes on Twitter.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 06, 2022, 12:10:15 PM
A massive over reaction from our lot on this.

Preston born, Preston fan likes a tweet about Preston.

Our issues are much bigger than what our keeper likes on Twitter.
A massive underreaction by some of our fans on this.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 06, 2022, 12:14:04 PM
His (SJ) actions were disgusting and done out of stroppiness i'd wager.

Yes our issues run deeper than that but it's just a public showing of disrespect and illustrates the toxicity within the club.

Shows how rotten things are here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 06, 2022, 12:20:47 PM
His (SJ) actions were disgusting and done out of stroppiness i'd wager.

Yes our issues run deeper than that but it's just a public showing of disrespect and illustrates the toxicity within the club.

Shows how rotten things are here.
What it says to me is he is off soon and he couldn't stay professional for just a few months, zero respect for the club and fans I wish he was gone he's leaving a bad smell around the place.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on February 06, 2022, 12:21:07 PM
Regardless of what we may think, I am pretty sure that Bruce will play Johnstone. As would I to be honest. He is a better goalkeeper than Button in my view.
I think he will go with four at the back but not sure about rest of the formation. It’s going to be interesting to see.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 06, 2022, 12:23:36 PM
A massive underreaction by some of our fans on this.

SJ always tweets about Man Utd related stuff as well, are you going to nail him to a cross for that too?

It's just a job for these guys.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 06, 2022, 12:25:59 PM
What it says to me is he is off soon and he couldn't stay professional for just a few months, zero respect for the club and fans I wish he was gone he's leaving a bad smell around the place.

It was a childish, spiteful action. Hopefully he got a talking too at least.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 06, 2022, 12:28:22 PM
SJ always tweets about Man Utd related stuff as well, are you going to nail him to a cross for that too?

It's just a job for these guys.
Really? I know it's a job but the least you expect is professionalism, liking a tweet when someone scores against the team you work for you think that's ok?,  unbelievable
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 06, 2022, 02:17:47 PM
I had too many players!

Me as well Boinging, Me as well.  :-[ I put it down to the new strip and my senility preventing me from watching the games with any objectivity. That and the fact that I see nothing to convince me 11 will ever be enough, against teams like Fulham who get at least 12 and sometimes 13 on the pitch, 2 of em not even in Fulham colours :D 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Barrington on February 10, 2022, 12:13:53 PM
                                                                   Johnstone


           O'Shea                             Kipre                                Bartley                     Townsend



                                               Gardner-H                           Mowatt


                                                                     Phillips


                           Robinson                                                                     Grant


                                                                       Dike



Ideally I would be happy with this from what we currently have. Obviously Carroll will have to play for now instead of Dike and if O'Shea is not fit we may have to rely on Furlong or maybe try Ajayi or a kid at right back. Clarke could come in for one of the centre-backs as they're all much of a muchness in all honesty. If Phillips isn't fit there's any number of players we could try in there. Diangana as a stand-in for either Grant or Robinson if necessary.
                                                                     


                                                                   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 10, 2022, 09:38:00 PM
Focussing on the starting line up I thought Bruce's decision to go 4-3-3 was interesting it is not a formation that he is generally associated with and on paper it looks like a small tweak from the 3-4-3 although in reality it is quite a shift.

Switching to back four totally changes the structure of the team. There is a central two who will need more protection from midfield. Equally the full backs are sitting deeper and have a greater level of defensive responsibility so generally won't be as prominent in the 1st phase of attacking transition.

It was noticeable that both wide forwards starting positions were very wide even though they were inverted.

The three man midfield was again something of a surprise. He played Mowatt as a deep sitting  playmaker with Reach and Livermore as a double 8.

Carroll was the obvious target man but was isolated unless he was in the half spaces and therefore able to link up with a wide forward but if he starts in the half space the issue is has to get back into the centre to give the player in possession an option.

As often stated I am far from certain there is a tactical fix here but I think we look a lot better defensively as a back 3. It also means we don't need wingers and aside for the horribly out of form Diangana and currently injured Phillips we don't have any. If we want to have 3 in midfield I'd look to push Mowatt forward to sit just behind a front 2

It might look like this

Johnstone

O'Shea
Kipre
Clarke

Furlong
Gardner-Hickman
Molumby
Townsend

Robinson
Carroll

Not entirely sure that works but I don't hate it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 11, 2022, 05:54:46 AM
If we want to have 3 in midfield I'd look to push Mowatt forward to sit just behind a front 2

It might look like this

Johnstone

O'Shea
Kipre
Clarke

Furlong
Gardner-Hickman
Molumby
Townsend

Robinson
Carroll

Not entirely sure that works but I don't hate it.

You forgot to put Mowatt in Stan but it's clear he is meant to be just in behind.

I am going to focus on what we could do to optimise the setup Bruce played on Wednesday. It's the balance of the midfield I think I would change. I would have Molumby as the deepest player which I think would offer us better defence protection, especially in transition as he is so mobile. He isn't a ball progresser but with Townsend available to his left and the ability to go direct to Carroll and play off of him, I don't think that matters too much. I'd then have players that could get get up and beyond Carroll ahead of him, which has to be Mowatt and Gardner-Hickman.

I think that the formation is intending to get the best out of Grant and Diangana who are both better wider but does leave a gaping hole centrally to provide any creativity or guile although I'm not sure we have that player in any case.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 11, 2022, 07:14:48 AM
                Johnstone
Furlong O'Shea Clarke Townsend
                  Molumby
       Gardner-Hickman Mowatt
                  Robinson
                Carroll Grant

Get the full backs bombing on. Cr7 in the number 10 role. A mobile midfield. Grant up top and hope carroll and him can strike a big man little man combo
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on February 11, 2022, 07:29:32 AM
You forgot to put Mowatt in Stan but it's clear he is meant to be just in behind.



Or perhaps Stan put Livermore in and this is how we should be after 20 minutes......
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 11, 2022, 09:04:37 AM
I think that the only area where we are moderately blessed is in centre backs so I would maintain three at the back.  Another reason for this is that the defence has played that way for half a season with relatively low goals against and it's not the time to experiment there.

                                    Johnstone

                Kipre (O'Shea*)   Bartley   Clarke

  Furlong              TGH             Molumby                 Townsend

                                    Mowatt/Reach

                       Carroll                                  Robinson

* Only the coaching staff will know whether O'Shea is battle-ready

I also think that the criticism of Reach has been over the top and that he has some some skill and a shot on him and could sit in Mowatt's place as he passes along the ground more than Mowatt who has not impressed me recently.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: billybassett on February 11, 2022, 10:30:06 AM
I think that the only area where we are moderately blessed is in centre backs so I would maintain three at the back.  Another reason for this is that the defence has played that way for half a season with relatively low goals against and it's not the time to experiment there.

                                    Johnstone

                Kipre (O'Shea*)   Bartley   Clarke

  Furlong              TGH             Molumby                 Townsend

                                    Mowatt/Reach

                       Carroll                                  Robinson

* Only the coaching staff will know whether O'Shea is battle-ready

I also think that the criticism of Reach has been over the top and that he has some some skill and a shot on him and could sit in Mowatt's place as he passes along the ground more than Mowatt who has not impressed me recently.

Couldn't disagree more. 5 at the back has clearly not worked we don't have the wingbacks to make it work, as we have seen 100s oi times when they fail to put in a decent cross or give possession away. How you can have Reach in the side is beyond me and Mowatt  should be binned - to think we binned of a poor Sawyers for Mowatt.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 11, 2022, 10:52:27 AM
Er I think I've got 3 at the back there?
Pure matter of opinion over Reach - that's what it's all about isn't it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 11, 2022, 11:02:35 AM
Couldn't disagree more. 5 at the back has clearly not worked we don't have the wingbacks to make it work, as we have seen 100s oi times when they fail to put in a decent cross or give possession away. How you can have Reach in the side is beyond me and Mowatt  should be binned - to think we binned of a poor Sawyers for Mowatt.

Four at the back didn't work either, when our wingbacks do get forward, it exposes our two centre halves. Neither of whom incidentally, picked up the batton to manage the back line, defensively we were all over the place.

Defensively 3 at the back works much better for us, that bit of VI's strategy worked.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 11, 2022, 11:17:06 AM
Most teams either attack in a 3-2-5 or a 2-3-5. You do sometimes get teams that go 2-2-6 but they're not as common.

So whatever formation you want to suggest we play, it's going to boil down to one of only a few options in attack.

Imo, both Townsend and Furlong are better going forwards than defensively, so playing them as wingbacks makes more sense. Of course you can have aggressive full backs a la Liverpool even with a back four, but then you need a more combative midfield three, and you also need the fullbacks to contribute going forward.

You could have O'Shea at right back and basically give Townsend full license to get forward, and that might also allow a midfielder to go forward from a 3.

So something like

Johnstone

O'Shea
Ajayi/Bartley
Clarke
Townsend

TGH
Molumby
Mowatt

Robinson
Carroll
Grant

So O'Shea would stay back a bit more, TGH could drift out into that space, while Grant cutting in gives Townsend the outside channel.

It's by no means perfect but it's an option
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on February 11, 2022, 11:31:21 AM
Surprised how many are picking Johnstone.

After his Twitter "like" for Preston's goal, I would never play him again. It may have stemmed from his row with Val, but for me it was disrespectful to his team mates, our club and every fan.
Button has done well enough and is far braver than that coward anyway.
But when ramsadale gives the v to molinspew….that’s ok?
People moan that football players don’t care, he likes his boyhood team…no complaints from me.(and I don’t actually like or rate him)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 11, 2022, 12:25:27 PM
But when ramsadale gives the v to molinspew….that’s ok?
People moan that football players don’t care, he likes his boyhood team…no complaints from me.(and I don’t actually like or rate him)

As you don't like or rate SJ, yet seem to be supporting him tweeting against us, are you then like SJ a Man Utd supporter, but in disguise Zippy?  ;) ;D

edit: I actually typed another word meaning animal droppings that can be put on rose beds, but it keeps getting  changed to what you see above, works both ways for me though :P
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 11, 2022, 12:30:26 PM
But when ramsadale gives the v to molinspew….that’s ok?
People moan that football players don’t care, he likes his boyhood team…no complaints from me.(and I don’t actually like or rate him)
A better example was if Ramsdale gave the v to his teammates and fans, amazes me how some people are missing the blindingly obvious.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on February 12, 2022, 03:09:15 PM
A better example was if Ramsdale gave the v to his teammates and fans, amazes me how some people are missing the blindingly obvious.
Amazes me how fans of clubs expect the players to have the club shop duvet on their beds ..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on February 12, 2022, 07:34:08 PM
When you are employed within a team format of any sort, it is not usually acceptable to publicly disrespect your employer, your management, and even more importantly to disrespect your team mates and the people who have allowed you their support, by 'liking' a setback for them all. But this is football and social media, so I assume it doesn't count. But I for one will be glad when you are getting splinters on a London bench, at least you will be under the noses of the England selectors there. Hope they like the smell better than I do Sam You are not irreplaceable at the Hawthornes, 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 17, 2022, 12:15:23 PM
On the basis that we don't get promoted this year, and are looking at a second season in the Championship, it's hard to rpeduct where we'll go.

Last time we had a second season, we brought in a number of players and just about got there.

Personally, I can't see that happening again, so we've got to identify where we're poor, and look to improve those areas.

I think we can let both Johnstone and Button go, and run with Palmer and Griffiths.

Furlong is on a contract until 2025, so unless we get a bid from a newly promoted team, he's still here. As back up, I don't know of Ingram is a full back, and I have TGH in midfield, and O'Shea at CB.

We actually have a lot of strength at Centre Back:

Ajayi
O'Shea
Bartley
Kipre

I also can't remember if Clarke is a loan to perm or just a loan. We do seem to have three players who prefer to play the right sided centre back, so we might see Ajayi or Kipré move on, but I wouldn't be surprised if we keep them all.

Left back is tricky. Townsend is 28, Reach is 29, both contracted until 2024. My personal preference would be to find a bidder for both, and get a new, younger left back in. But equally I can see both staying.

Central midfield:

Mowatt
Livermore
TGH
Castro

Probably the most important area. I'd be promoting TGH to starter, and getting another progressive Ayer in there. Relegate Livermore to the bench, and unless Mowatt is itching to leave, keep him around.

I presume we won't offer Sawyers a new contract, and frankly he's not the answer anyway.

I would say Castro is the nearest of the youth to breaking into the squad, but from what I've seen and heard, there are still deficiencies that need addressing.

Wide right

Fellows has done ok but he's likely to be an understudy.

At 30, Phillips will be tough to move on, as much as I would like him to. He's also contracted until 2024.

I personally would also look to move Robinson on. Don't know how controversial that is, but he's 27 and not going to radically improve. Only problem is his contract until 2025, which could see him stick around if he can't get better elsewhere.

Wide left:

The big question is Diangana. Depending on what we've already paid, we might be able to convince a team to take a chance on him and use the money to reinvest elsewhere.

I'd probably keep Grant - I'm not sure he's as an attractive prospect to other clubs and also has a long contract. But he's a good age and could still improve.

Attacking mid/Number 10

This is what we're really missing. No-one on the squad can really play here very well, and it's what I'd be focusing on.

Striker

Dike hopefully will be the number 1. Beyond that we're looking at youngsters to step up e.g. Tulloch and Faal. Cleary looks like he isn't going to stick around.

Oh, and Zohore is under contract for one more year, so maybe we can eventually shift him on.

Overall, it's not awful, and with a couple of key additions it could be even classified as good!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 18, 2022, 10:22:33 AM
Ingram is very good going forward but defensively suspect from what I've seen. Clarke is a straight loan from memory. TGH is technically sound but raw. I love his endeavour and application. The conundrum is his best position.

He's been out wide for pretty much the whole of his time here. I was calling for him to replace Furlong during the Swansea game. He'll make mistakes but I'm confident he'll learn from them quicker than Darnell will learn from his.

At the same time he did very well in the middle against Coventry. His use of the ball could have been better as could his covering and the timing of his runs. Again though, he needs first team game time to learn at a level where it matters.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 18, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
Ingram is very good going forward but defensively suspect from what I've seen. Clarke is a straight loan from memory. TGH is technically sound but raw. I love his endeavour and application. The conundrum is his best position.

He's been out wide for pretty much the whole of his time here. I was calling for him to replace Furlong during the Swansea game. He'll make mistakes but I'm confident he'll learn from them quicker than Darnell will learn from his.

At the same time he did very well in the middle against Coventry. His use of the ball could have been better as could his covering and the timing of his runs. Again though, he needs first team game time to learn at a level where it matters.

Thanks Dan. I agree about TGH needing to nail down a position, but I'm not sure he is a full back either. Yes, maybe a wing back, but I think if we're going 4 at the back, he's better in midfield, and I don't think he's worth playing in a wide attacking role
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 18, 2022, 11:31:04 AM
I've watched Ingram (No 2?) a few times and thought he looked very assured on the ball.  My belief is that defensive skills are easier to coach into a player than ball skills; his tackling is ok just needs a bit of tuition in positioning.  When the playing staff is finally convinced that we're not going up I would like to see him given a place on the bench   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darbolina on February 18, 2022, 12:05:19 PM
On the basis that we don't get promoted this year, and are looking at a second season in the Championship, it's hard to rpeduct where we'll go.

Last time we had a second season, we brought in a number of players and just about got there.

Personally, I can't see that happening again, so we've got to identify where we're poor, and look to improve those areas.

I think we can let both Johnstone and Button go, and run with Palmer and Griffiths.

Furlong is on a contract until 2025, so unless we get a bid from a newly promoted team, he's still here. As back up, I don't know of Ingram is a full back, and I have TGH in midfield, and O'Shea at CB.

We actually have a lot of strength at Centre Back:

Ajayi
O'Shea
Bartley
Kipre

I also can't remember if Clarke is a loan to perm or just a loan. We do seem to have three players who prefer to play the right sided centre back, so we might see Ajayi or Kipré move on, but I wouldn't be surprised if we keep them all.

Left back is tricky. Townsend is 28, Reach is 29, both contracted until 2024. My personal preference would be to find a bidder for both, and get a new, younger left back in. But equally I can see both staying.

Central midfield:

Mowatt
Livermore
TGH
Castro

Probably the most important area. I'd be promoting TGH to starter, and getting another progressive Ayer in there. Relegate Livermore to the bench, and unless Mowatt is itching to leave, keep him around.

I presume we won't offer Sawyers a new contract, and frankly he's not the answer anyway.

I would say Castro is the nearest of the youth to breaking into the squad, but from what I've seen and heard, there are still deficiencies that need addressing.

Wide right

Fellows has done ok but he's likely to be an understudy.

At 30, Phillips will be tough to move on, as much as I would like him to. He's also contracted until 2024.

I personally would also look to move Robinson on. Don't know how controversial that is, but he's 27 and not going to radically improve. Only problem is his contract until 2025, which could see him stick around if he can't get better elsewhere.

Wide left:

The big question is Diangana. Depending on what we've already paid, we might be able to convince a team to take a chance on him and use the money to reinvest elsewhere.

I'd probably keep Grant - I'm not sure he's as an attractive prospect to other clubs and also has a long contract. But he's a good age and could still improve.

Attacking mid/Number 10

This is what we're really missing. No-one on the squad can really play here very well, and it's what I'd be focusing on.

Striker

Dike hopefully will be the number 1. Beyond that we're looking at youngsters to step up e.g. Tulloch and Faal. Cleary looks like he isn't going to stick around.

Oh, and Zohore is under contract for one more year, so maybe we can eventually shift him on.

Overall, it's not awful, and with a couple of key additions it could be even classified as good!
Good summary that. I may in a tiny minority but believe Sawyers would be useful in this current squad and maybe next season, epecially if we played him higher up the pitch than Bilic did.

Most urgently in the summer, I'd sign Clarke, let Molumby and Carroll leave then look to move on Phillips, Bartley, Livermore, Diangana and Robinson. These guys are supposedly the core/ experienced/ quality players of the squad who have consistently let us down - the spine of this team/ squad needs energy and character and these guys just don't have that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 18, 2022, 12:07:45 PM
I forgot we had Sawyers, good grief can you imagine him strolling around in a 3 man midfield chewing his gum
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darbolina on February 18, 2022, 12:11:35 PM
I forgot we had Sawyers, good grief can you imagine him strolling around in a 3 man midfield chewing his gum

I'd rather that than a midfield of Reach, Molumby and Mowatt who can't put a pass together between them (the stuff of nightmares). Sawyers for Brentford was a forward thinking player and Bilic tried to turn him into a Greening type which didn't suit him. With more freedom he could at least link the midifield and attack better than this bunch
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 18, 2022, 12:16:17 PM
I'd rather that than a midfield of Reach, Molumby and Mowatt who can't put a pass together between them (the stuff of nightmares). Sawyers for Brentford was a forward thinking player and Bilic tried to turn him into a Greening type which didn't suit him. With more freedom he could at least link the midifield and attack better than this bunch

I'd rather not have Sawyers or Reach in a 3 man midfield to be fair.

I never saw him play for Brentford in all honesty so you may be onto something there but when he was here he started "OK" and went downhill from there from what i recall.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darbolina on February 18, 2022, 12:27:19 PM
I'd rather not have Sawyers or Reach in a 3 man midfield to be fair.

I never saw him play for Brentford in all honesty so you may be onto something there but when he was here he started "OK" and went downhill from there from what i recall.

For most of his career Sawyers played an attacking midfielder/ even number 10 at times and then Bilic tried to turn him into Pirlo which worked to an extent as Sawyers could pick a pass when he had more time on the ball in the championship. If he had protection behind him e.g. Mowatt and TGH I think he could be a solution in an attacking role. It's obviously hypothetical as we loaned him out in spite of having a very weak midfield. Letting him and Periera go and replacing them with Molumby and Reach was criminal really
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 18, 2022, 12:40:57 PM
For most of his career Sawyers played an attacking midfielder/ even number 10 at times and then Bilic tried to turn him into Pirlo which worked to an extent as Sawyers could pick a pass when he had more time on the ball in the championship. If he had protection behind him e.g. Mowatt and TGH I think he could be a solution in an attacking role. It's obviously hypothetical as we loaned him out in spite of having a very weak midfield. Letting him and Periera go and replacing them with Molumby and Reach was criminal really

Not sure where he plays for Stoke but i'm mates with a couple of season ticket holders there and they said he's been rubbish there too so who knows
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on February 18, 2022, 02:18:38 PM
Not sure where he plays for Stoke but i'm mates with a couple of season ticket holders there and they said he's been rubbish there too so who knows

I hear the same things from Stoke fans. Not good enough sadly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 18, 2022, 08:47:11 PM
I broadly agree with Mark W's comments a few posts back.

There are a couple of unknowns firstly assuming we aren't promoted does Bruce continue? My gut feeling provided the rest of the season is not an unmitigated disaster (however you want to define that) the club will stick with him. While he can walk away unless circumstances are completely hopeless or there isn't a better offer then I think he will stick with us.

The second is what formation or style will Bruce settle on? Given that Bruce is as pragmatic tactically as Ismael was rigid any combination of players might work for him but the issue is there heavy dependence on one or two creative players to elevate the workman like solidity of the rest of the team (e.g. Saint Maximim) rather than a systematic approach (e.g. a high press style)

The fear is we recruit on the rather vague basis of the players being good players and somehow Bruce will mould them into something (not sure what) much in the same was manner as happened under Bilic and many of the issues can be traced to that approach. My pet hate was recruiting Krovinavic and Sawyers in the same window you could see why you might sign either but what was the plan for BOTH? In the end neither worked because Bilic abandoned any formation where either of them might have worked. 

The phrase that probably is the most frequently occurring whenever the squad is discussed is "move on". I am extremely pessimistic about the prospect of moving any of the players currently under contract without making very significant payments to move them out. There are 3 maybe 4 exceptions here but these are the players we would be loathed to lose.

If we are recruiting to a very clear plan and we use the under23's as squad depth there is the possibility of fixing the squad with 3 key signings but I fear we won't be recruiting to a clear plan the current mess is as likely to be compounded by another short term appointment rather than resolved.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on February 19, 2022, 06:40:52 AM
If I was Bruce I'd be scouring the world right now for the best out-of-contract No10 he can find.  Then begging Lai for the finances to make the transfer happen.

We have fantastic defensive solidity, as long as we don't do anything daft like re-select Livermore.

The aim from now on has to be to score the 1st goal, grind down opponents and see out games with a clean sheet.  It really is that straightforward.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 07:48:07 PM
Seasons over as far as I’m concerned, give the guys who will be here next year a go.

Palmer
Furlong O’Shea Bartley Townsend
TGH Mowatt
Tulloch Robinson Diangana
Grant (Dike when he’s back)

Harsh on Carroll, tried hard but utter pooh IMO
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on February 19, 2022, 09:25:03 PM
Carroll has been one of, if not, the best player since he arrived.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 09:33:32 PM
Carroll has been one of, if not, the best player since he arrived.

Tried hard, hasn’t done anything. Also won’t be here next season…
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DevonInStripes on February 19, 2022, 09:37:15 PM
Given recent performances at least Carroll is giving it a good go which can be said about very few others at the moment. We seem to have assembled the biggest bunch of no hopers as a squad certainly this century and perhaps back to the 1980’s .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Tony Goddens Gloves on February 19, 2022, 09:39:59 PM
Seasons over as far as I’m concerned, give the guys who will be here next year a go.

Palmer
Furlong O’Shea Bartley Townsend
TGH Mowatt
Tulloch Robinson Diangana
Grant (Dike when he’s back)

Harsh on Carroll, tried hard but utter pooh IMO

Oh god how far have we fallen. If that is the core of the team next year then we are doomed. I keep saying it 20 years to build what we had only for the Chinese to destroy it in less than 5.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dynamo10 on February 19, 2022, 09:41:24 PM
Seasons over as far as I’m concerned, give the guys who will be here next year a go.

Palmer
Furlong O’Shea Bartley Townsend
TGH Mowatt
Tulloch Robinson Diangana
Grant (Dike when he’s back)

Harsh on Carroll, tried hard but utter pooh IMO

I'd happily sack off the majority of that XI as well
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 09:53:18 PM
I'd happily sack off the majority of that XI as well

Me too, but you can’t replace a whole squad unfortunately. Bring a right back (unless Ingram can step up), a centre mid & a no.10 and there’s a good team under the right manager.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: albion59 on February 19, 2022, 10:03:49 PM
Seasons over as far as I’m concerned, give the guys who will be here next year a go.

Palmer
Furlong O’Shea Bartley Townsend
TGH Mowatt
Tulloch Robinson Diangana
Grant (Dike when he’s back)

Harsh on Carroll, tried hard but utter pooh IMO
Do you actually watch the Games? Your opinion on Carroll is IMO completely wrong. Best player we have at the moment, and he tries more than can be said for the rest of them
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 10:11:36 PM
Do you actually watch the Games? Your opinion on Carroll is IMO completely wrong. Best player we have at the moment, and he tries more than can be said for the rest of them

Yep, unfortunately I do. Wins a bit in the air but no one close to him, can’t link play on the floor, never looks like scoring.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: caravanc58 on February 19, 2022, 10:27:42 PM
System and tactics mean sod all if the  personnel can't do basics.
Grants failure to score
Not one defender even challenges Jerome which is shocking.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: albion59 on February 19, 2022, 11:12:55 PM
Yep, unfortunately I do. Wins a bit in the air but no one close to him, can’t link play on the floor, never looks like scoring.
No one close to him? Not his fault, if there's no one there how can he link play? And doesn't look like scoring because we don't create anything. How about the link up play that put Grant in who missed?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 11:22:31 PM
No one close to him? Not his fault, if there's no one there how can he link play? And doesn't look like scoring because we don't create anything. How about the link up play that put Grant in who missed?

No not his fault that no one is close for the flick ons.

Linking play on the floor is poor, slow, bit of a donkey imo. Are we on about the goal kick that went straight to him and he passed 5 yards to Grant? Not once in the 4 games he’s played has he done anything from open play. He does try I’ll give him that but not good enough and won’t be here next year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: albion59 on February 19, 2022, 11:25:12 PM
No not his fault that no one is close for the flick ons.

Linking play on the floor is poor, slow, bit of a donkey imo. Are we on about the goal kick that went straight to him and he passed 5 yards to Grant? Not once in the 4 games he’s played has he done anything from open play. He does try I’ll give him that but not good enough and won’t be here next year.
All about opinions mate, he is head and shoulders above any other players we have, and i hope he is still here next season and if Bruce is i am sure Carroll will be.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on February 19, 2022, 11:28:27 PM
All about opinions mate, he is head and shoulders above any other players we have, and i hope he is still here next season and if Bruce is i am sure Carroll will be.

Yeah, most fans seem to rate him I just don’t see it. 3 losses and a draw in the 4 games he’s played doesn’t paint a great picture though
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 20, 2022, 12:14:40 AM
All about opinions mate, he is head and shoulders above any other players we have, and i hope he is still here next season and if Bruce is i am sure Carroll will be.

Have to agree he is head and shoulders above, must be 6ft 7ish
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on February 21, 2022, 10:30:38 AM
Our scouting must be virtually nonexistent. It amazes me that we can’t find better players within our budget. An example, Matt Phillips (top earner I believe on just over £1 million/season) has so far managed 3 goals and 2 assists. For that we have rewarded him with a contract extension. Can we really not find any players who would be willing and able to contribute more who would play for us for over a million pounds a season? If the answer to that is no, then our scouting system is appalling!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 21, 2022, 11:10:40 AM
Ron Gourlay reads this and thinks the Scouting Department doesn't work he'll scrap what remains of it along with the Stalking and Monitoring Departments. No need to Stalk and Monitor if we don't scout in the first instance. Triple the savings. Kerching...... bonus time (allegedly  ;) ).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 21, 2022, 05:36:21 PM
Ron Gourlay reads this and thinks the Scouting Department doesn't work he'll scrap what remains of it along with the Stalking and Monitoring Departments. No need to Stalk and Monitor if we don't scout in the first instance. Triple the savings. Kerching...... bonus time (allegedly  ;) ).
Then you are into Dowlin,   "I can pick a player territory"   and we know how that ends.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 21, 2022, 07:08:31 PM
I don't think there are tactics or a system which will suddenly turn furlong and townsend into superb wingers whether that is in a 4 or 5. Both are competent (for the most part) championship fulp backs. Playing actual wingers would actually give us a chance of creating.

Secondly the cm i thought would be better without Livermore it has made next to no difference due to us playing molumby who is just a younger irish version of him. Mowatt hasnt been with it for 3 months. And whilst there has been a improvement somewhat in reach he still isnt the answer be it xm am or even lm.

Thirdly we have carried Grant all season he justified it for awhile with a good goal return that has now gone. Diangana hasnt had a run of games he needs one as last chance saloon before i give up on him.

I never thought i would call for Phillips to be back in side but he is a better right winger than furlong will ever be. I would give diangana a go on left and tgh in middle. Until dike fit i would either play Robinson up with Carroll or give Cleary a go off him because it cant be any worse. So my team.

                  Johnstone
Furlong oshea Clarke Townsend
Phillips TGH Mowatt Diangana
            Carroll Robinson

I
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 21, 2022, 07:14:59 PM
Is Phillips even fit yet?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on February 21, 2022, 07:41:20 PM
Is Phillips even fit yet?
I don’t think he’s been fit since 2016! 😀
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dynamo10 on February 21, 2022, 08:54:15 PM
Is Phillips even fit yet?

I hope not. He hasn't offered anything for quite some time!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 23, 2022, 11:31:56 AM
Due to a technical glitch I didn't have the 'pleasure' of watching last night's game on TV. I was just wondering what the system was meant to be. Couldn't really tell from the radio commentary. Chris Ewelumo seemed more interested in choking himself with his tongue than going into any kind of tactical detail  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on February 23, 2022, 11:46:58 AM
Due to a technical glitch I didn't have the 'pleasure' of watching last night's game on TV. I was just wondering what the system was meant to be. Couldn't really tell from the radio commentary. Chris Ewelumo seemed more interested in choking himself with his tongue than going into any kind of tactical detail  ;D .

It looked like 4-2-3-1, but it could have been 4-1-4-1 as Molumby seemed the more progressive of the midfield 2 joining attacks while Mowatt did his best to hide in plain sight. The 3 behind |Carroll were quite close to him in the first half but gradually dropped further and further behind making a 5 in midfield and leaving Carroll isolated by about 30 yards.

As ever there was a lot of slow ponderous sideways passing.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 23, 2022, 11:50:47 AM
Due to a technical glitch I didn't have the 'pleasure' of watching last night's game on TV. I was just wondering what the system was meant to be. Couldn't really tell from the radio commentary. Chris Ewelumo seemed more interested in choking himself with his tongue than going into any kind of tactical detail  ;D .

According to Bruce it was 433. It looked more 451 to me, Diangana and Grant were certainly deeper than Carroll far more often than not.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Maresca Was A Baggie on February 23, 2022, 01:04:13 PM
This 'Topics' title sums up our issues. No discernable tactics, no system, and no players that are capable of putting anything into practice.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: CL3MO on February 23, 2022, 01:52:57 PM
With the players that we have in our squad and the huge inbalance in positional responsibility, I don't actually know a system that can lead us to any kind of winning form. We've tried them all now and I think we all know what that means - the recruitment was dire (as we knew) and the players are chucking it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on February 23, 2022, 01:53:33 PM
We are a lost cause at the moment. Period.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 23, 2022, 03:17:22 PM
Cheers for the replies to the question about the formation and set up. Mowatt should be playing and harrying further up, as I've stated previously he's performing a role unsuited to his game and it's clearly exacerbating his dip in form. He simply isn't a holding midfielder or deep lying playmaker.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on February 23, 2022, 10:21:27 PM
It looked like 4-2-3-1, but it could have been 4-1-4-1 as Molumby seemed the more progressive of the midfield 2 joining attacks while Mowatt did his best to hide in plain sight. The 3 behind |Carroll were quite close to him in the first half but gradually dropped further and further behind making a 5 in midfield and leaving Carroll isolated by about 30 yards.

As ever there was a lot of slow ponderous sideways passing.

I had it down as a 4231 with the two wide players either side of Carroll playing as inverted wide men, cutting inside rather than creating much width. I think the idea was to get them closer to Caroll but I'm not convinced that really worked, although Diangana did his best in the first half to get up along side him and run at their defence.

The only question I had was about the central attacking midfielder, it felt like Reach and Molumby kept swapping, maybe to try to cause confusion about where the deep run was going to come from and trick the defender who would have been responsible for picking them up.

I sort of get what Bruce is trying to do, he is looking for a way to negate the very obvious squad deficines and the lack of a specialist creative player but he might be better off keeping it simple and just focusing on having Diangana on the left and a specialist right winger in that role. No idea if it would work, this season is only really experimental from this point forward anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on February 24, 2022, 11:35:39 AM
I have some big problems with the starting 11 and how it affects how the game plays out.

-Ajayi and Bartley keeping out a potential partnership of O'Shea (if fit) & Clarke.
-Furlong or any of the midfielders keeping out TGH.
-Mowatt being played in a holding role while Molumby and Reach have appeared more advanced, and Livermore when he's in.
-Grant on the left which prevents Diangana from playing in the position where almost all of his great performances came from. In pre-season he performed brilliant at Blues and I'm sure he was on the left.
-Inverted wingers meaning Carroll doesn't get direct service meaning we rely on Townsend and Furlong and their deliveries have been very poor for a very long time.

A 4231 probably suits this lot. Get Clarke and O'Shea in the middle and drop the calamity duo. Furlong and Townsend can focus on defending and supportive runs but not be our main attacking outlets.
The two midfielders can then protect the defence. It will be Livermore let's face it so have him shielding the back 4.
The 3 advanced midfielders can then be Diangana left, Mowatt middle and TGH right. It will be more direct, a left footer on the left and right footer on the right and Mowatt can be in and around the edge of the box where we saw him do damage in the earlier part of the season.
Carroll and then Dike then take up the CF position.
Everybody in positions that suit them and we can focus on full backs doing full back things, wingers doing winger things and so on.
And for the love of god, drop Reach!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: billybassett on February 24, 2022, 11:47:21 AM
I have some big problems with the starting 11 and how it affects how the game plays out.

-Ajayi and Bartley keeping out a potential partnership of O'Shea (if fit) & Clarke.
-Furlong or any of the midfielders keeping out TGH.
-Mowatt being played in a holding role while Molumby and Reach have appeared more advanced, and Livermore when he's in.
-Grant on the left which prevents Diangana from playing in the position where almost all of his great performances came from. In pre-season he performed brilliant at Blues and I'm sure he was on the left.
-Inverted wingers meaning Carroll doesn't get direct service meaning we rely on Townsend and Furlong and their deliveries have been very poor for a very long time.

A 4231 probably suits this lot. Get Clarke and O'Shea in the middle and drop the calamity duo. Furlong and Townsend can focus on defending and supportive runs but not be our main attacking outlets.
The two midfielders can then protect the defence. It will be Livermore let's face it so have him shielding the back 4.
The 3 advanced midfielders can then be Diangana left, Mowatt middle and TGH right. It will be more direct, a left footer on the left and right footer on the right and Mowatt can be in and around the edge of the box where we saw him do damage in the earlier part of the season.
Carroll and then Dike then take up the CF position.
Everybody in positions that suit them and we can focus on full backs doing full back things, wingers doing winger things and so on.
And for the love of god, drop Reach!

On team formation said exactly that to my pops. Has to be a 4231 or at a push at home 4141. Get rid of Bartley, Reach, Grant etc Make some bloody changes Bruce FFS
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 24, 2022, 11:56:44 AM
If we play four at the back with this group we will concede an average of two goals per game. Bear that in mind. They aren't suited to it and we don't have a defensive midfielder to help protect the CB's either.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alwaysbilly on February 24, 2022, 12:23:30 PM
A new spine next season - GK, 2x CB 1 x CM build around the likes of O’Shea TGH diangana and dike
I’d give Carroll a season too, showed more desire and effort since he’s been here than most of the Squad has all season
The problem we have is who recruits - it could damage us more than we already are.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on February 24, 2022, 12:31:17 PM
I have some big problems with the starting 11 and how it affects how the game plays out.

-Ajayi and Bartley keeping out a potential partnership of O'Shea (if fit) & Clarke.
-Furlong or any of the midfielders keeping out TGH.
-Mowatt being played in a holding role while Molumby and Reach have appeared more advanced, and Livermore when he's in.
-Grant on the left which prevents Diangana from playing in the position where almost all of his great performances came from. In pre-season he performed brilliant at Blues and I'm sure he was on the left.
-Inverted wingers meaning Carroll doesn't get direct service meaning we rely on Townsend and Furlong and their deliveries have been very poor for a very long time.

A 4231 probably suits this lot. Get Clarke and O'Shea in the middle and drop the calamity duo. Furlong and Townsend can focus on defending and supportive runs but not be our main attacking outlets.
The two midfielders can then protect the defence. It will be Livermore let's face it so have him shielding the back 4.
The 3 advanced midfielders can then be Diangana left, Mowatt middle and TGH right. It will be more direct, a left footer on the left and right footer on the right and Mowatt can be in and around the edge of the box where we saw him do damage in the earlier part of the season.
Carroll and then Dike then take up the CF position.
Everybody in positions that suit them and we can focus on full backs doing full back things, wingers doing winger things and so on.
And for the love of god, drop Reach!
I don’t think you will get many argue with that….
The trouble is , if you can see it, and I can see it…..
Which is probably the biggest issue of all, players know there are favourites (Bruce and Val) so why the hell should they try?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on February 24, 2022, 12:39:13 PM
I don’t think you will get many argue with that….
The trouble is , if you can see it, and I can see it…..
Which is probably the biggest issue of all, players know there are favourites (Bruce and Val) so why the hell should they try?

Yeah i know. Sadly we're more likely to see Phillips for TGH, Reach in for Grady, Mowatt dropped back, Livermore pushed on, Bartley and Ajayi in...bloody nightmare.

If Bruce doesn't see all this soon then I will lose patience and I am usually a very patient fan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on February 24, 2022, 12:42:19 PM
Yeah i know. Sadly we're more likely to see Phillips for TGH, Reach in for Grady, Mowatt dropped back, Livermore pushed on, Bartley and Ajayi in...bloody nightmare.

If Bruce doesn't see all this soon then I will lose patience and I am usually a very patient fan.
We won’t go down, we won’t go up….
May as well write of 21/22 and start the build now…
I’m also usually patient , and not saying it’s Bruce’s fault entirely, but with no upswing since is appointment, a man on the way down in terms of football standing and we only signed him for 18 months (with a 6 break) ….I’d invoke the break now and almost play for fun
We could have a “manage us this week “competition 😁
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on February 24, 2022, 12:59:25 PM
A new spine next season - GK, 2x CB 1 x CM build around the likes of O’Shea TGH diangana and dike
I’d give Carroll a season too, showed more desire and effort since he’s been here than most of the Squad has all season
The problem we have is who recruits - it could damage us more than we already are.
I agree (with the bold bit at least). It's really not what I expected at all. He's one of the few who will come out of this season with any credit, for me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 24, 2022, 06:38:07 PM
Fundamentally there is one decision to make back 4 or back 3.

Everything else is predicated on that decision. Unless the squad is blessed with highly skilled and tactically astute players (we aren't even relatively)  it is extremely difficult to switch seamlessly between the two.

The ideal structure of the squad changes dramatically dependent on which option the coach goes with. The squad is a bit of a mess but the first step to sorting it out is that decision. Once made we don't change at least not in season. There are tweaks and variations on a theme but 3 or 4 at the back is the key. 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 24, 2022, 06:55:47 PM
It's also down to the attitude of those playing ahead of the back 3 or 4.  They don't seem to be fully engaged.  I'm sure that such a bad run will have disheartened them but Bruce has neither gee'd them up or put the frighteners on them.  Also, several know that they will be selected no matter what.
Mowatt seems to be waiting for Ismael to come calling for him - after all that's the system in which he shines.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 24, 2022, 09:27:45 PM
It's also down to the attitude of those playing ahead of the back 3 or 4.  They don't seem to be fully engaged.  I'm sure that such a bad run will have disheartened them but Bruce has neither gee'd them up or put the frighteners on them.  Also, several know that they will be selected no matter what.
Mowatt seems to be waiting for Ismael to come calling for him - after all that's the system in which he shines.

To be fair Mowatt's form tanked while Val was still here but you're right he was a very system specific hire, but while you could make a case for half the squad to be shipped out based on attitude you have to know that isn't going happen and whatever we can do has to be focussed on getting something coherent onto the pitch. I absolute dread Bruce bringing a whole bunch of "good types" in but without any sense of a tactical plan.

If you want to know what that looks like it Andy Carroll lumbering around poorly supported trying hard but with virtually zero impact and that's absolutely not going to improve next season with a few more miles on the clock.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 24, 2022, 11:10:17 PM
Just looking at the remainder of this season, although we didn't do a good job of it, we did recruit to a 343 system and thats what I believe we should play. It doesn't need to be stylistically and tactically as Ismael deployed it but for the personnel available, I think it makes the most sense. Unless a wildcard like Castro becomes the creative force as a 10 or advanced 8 that we are lacking, I don't see other suitable options. Even variations of a 433 that could be effective probably require us to have a back 4 operate similar to how Bilic played it at times with one full back being more Conservative almost forming a three.

Where we can improve things for what we were doing under Ismael is the return of O'Shea to the back three and possibly fielding a back three of Kipre, O'Shea and Clarke which gives us three players fairly progressive on the ball, something Bartley is not, which could help with cjamve creation. We've looked.much more sound defensively in a back three, we do need to get back to conceding fewer goals, especially as we can't shake up the offensive personnel.

We need productivity out wide and I've always felt that Phillips, who was excellent as a wing back under Moore, should be utilised there when fit. The combo up front is a challenge but is in pretty much any other system, at least this way the creative burden is shared by the wing backs and not the midfield.

With everyone fit I'd probably look at:

Johnstone

Kipre
O'Shea
Clarke

Phillips
Gardner-Hickman
Mowatt
Townsend

Diangana
Dike
Robinson

With current availability probably:

Johnstone

Kipre
O'Shea
Clarke

Gardner-Hickman
Molumby
Mowatt
Townsend

Diangana
Carroll
Robinson
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 24, 2022, 11:58:50 PM
To be fair Mowatt's form tanked while Val was still here but you're right he was a very system specific hire, but while you could make a case for half the squad to be shipped out based on attitude you have to know that isn't going happen and whatever we can do has to be focussed on getting something coherent onto the pitch. I absolute dread Bruce bringing a whole bunch of "good types" in but without any sense of a tactical plan.

If you want to know what that looks like it Andy Carroll lumbering around poorly supported trying hard but with virtually zero impact and that's absolutely not going to improve next season with a few more miles on the clock.

Sadly I know only too well that it's not going to happen.  I'm only reflecting on the dire state the club is in. 
Bruce's appointment is a symptom of closed, risk-averse, conservative (small-C) thinking that will not change anything.
Sorry bit inebriated; Ukraine news got me into the vino.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on February 25, 2022, 07:45:36 AM
As I read Baggie Bofs very sensible post I am depressed by the paucity of quality within the proposed team line ups.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 25, 2022, 08:51:28 PM
We have a number of moderately decent centre backs but we are poor and slack in midfield.  Therefore I would suggest
 a 3-5-2 system.  I'm not sure which of our CB's I would choose as O'Shea might not be quite ready and the rest all make mistakes (who doesn't?)  The mistakes seem to be increasing under Bruce.  so my selection would be:-

                                                  Johnstone

                          O'Shea/Ajayi       Bartley         Clarke

                                                   Livermore
     TGH                   Molumby                                Castro/Tulloch          Townsend

                                            Carroll             Grant

Yes, I include Bartley and Livermore mainly because they give a d@mn.  I've left Mowatt on the bench for the same reason
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on March 01, 2022, 03:50:47 AM
Listen to offers for all senior playing staff with the exception of OShea Dike and TGH. That's depressing how bad the squad is.

Johnstone going. Button is ok but i would happily see palmer or Griffiths get given a go. Townsend is at peak last chance for us to sell. Wouldnt be bothered if bartley ajayi or kipre left. After oshea best cb is on a season long loan.

Can we shift Grant, reach, Phillips Livermore etc. Probably not tbe swamp needs draining even if that means most of parachute money is gone paying most of the squad off
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: benalbion on March 01, 2022, 07:47:08 AM
swansea are not world beaters but I felt Swansea played some good football which is a mile away from where we are. they showed whatever they practice on the training pitch they try to implement on match day. My point is they have a style/identity, they play out from the back, they play in triangles, they overlap full backs, they play nice little one twos with strikers to open up an attempt on goal. ITS BASIC STUFF THAT WE DONT DO. I can't remember in how many games where our players went through the same phase or sequence of play more than once apart from lumping it up to carroll. There is nothing. Is that down to chopping and changing managers/tactics etc..yes maybe, but surely now the powers that be anyone with half a football brain can see this. Someone seriously needs to get a grip of this club and stick with a plan
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on March 01, 2022, 08:44:07 AM
swansea are not world beaters but I felt Swansea played some good football which is a mile away from where we are. they showed whatever they practice on the training pitch they try to implement on match day. My point is they have a style/identity, they play out from the back, they play in triangles, they overlap full backs, they play nice little one twos with strikers to open up an attempt on goal. ITS BASIC STUFF THAT WE DONT DO. I can't remember in how many games where our players went through the same phase or sequence of play more than once apart from lumping it up to carroll. There is nothing. Is that down to chopping and changing managers/tactics etc..yes maybe, but surely now the powers that be anyone with half a football brain can see this. Someone seriously needs to get a grip of this club and stick with a plan
That's very fair comment. Again I think it comes down to recruitment and managerial choices. Swansea have consistently, barring one or two, chosen managers who want to play possession football and that goes back to Martinez taking over in 2007. They also recruit bright footballers who can control and pass a ball. It's not down to investment as their player sales in that period have massively dwarfed their recruitment budget.

By comparison we are total miss-mash of a squad. I honestly think that Kipre is our best passer of a ball which is a pretty damning reflection on the midfield and other areas. Under Val the players had to get it forward quickly - playing out from the back and playing in triangles was pretty much a no go area. Mowatt plays as though the lob it forward mentality is firmly engrained in him.
We can't even engineer openings for getting crosses in. We probably manage 1 decent cross a game.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on March 01, 2022, 08:46:04 AM
I said similar in the after match thread, Ben.

Swansea looked well coached, relatively young bunch of players, you can see what they’re trying to do. Pass and move, play in triangles, create overloads out wide.

We, on the other hand are an abject mess. No sign of any coaching, no sign of what we’re trying to do. A few lobs and hoofs forward and that’s your lot.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 01, 2022, 08:54:14 AM
What is this thing called a system? What are our tactics? What have we done as a support base to have so many of the current personnel inflicted upon us? May as well close the thread until the next transfer window. And then close it again. Promptly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 01, 2022, 05:29:32 PM
Picking through the wreckage. My view is Bruce cannot be left in charge so I am not even going to attempt to 2nd guess what he might want because frankly that is no longer relevant.  If he is in charge yes close the thread because we are a tactics free zone and every Championship manager and his dog will rock up at the Hawthorns and outwit Bruce.

As much as I would like to bin the entire squad that is not going to happen but equally it is an imbalanced mess which does need a lot of remedial work.

The question is now what does look like after those out of contract depart and what is the fewest steps we can take to getting something coherent on the pitch

I am going to take 4 formations (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-3) and work through what we have and what we need.

Goalkeeper

Both Johnstone and Button are leaving so that's an issue which might need addressing. Generally it doesn't matter as to shape as to what we need from a keeper but stylistically a high press might require a sweeper keeper. 

Looking at the options

4-2-3-1

Gk

Gardner-Hickman
O'Shea
Bartley
Townsend

Livermore*
Mowatt

Phillips*
NP
Diangana

Dike

*Players in an ideal world I'd upgrade

Players who don't fit Grant, Robinson, Reach and Tulloch   
Players who aren't in first XI but might be serviceable back ups Furlong, Ingram Ajayi, Taylor, Bryan, Kipre, Sawyers, Richards, Castro, Zohore, Faal Cleary and Fellows

With a new starting 10 we are good to go, well sort of. I'd certainly look to trade out a few, almost certainly Ajayi, Zohore, Grant, Robinson, Reach, Sawyers and Tulloch.

I certainly would be looking to bring in a starting 6 and a Right Winger. I was tempted to start with Fellows. In that case Livermore would squad depth and I would add Phillips to those I would be happy to let go.

4-3-3

GK

Gardner-Hickman
O'Shea
Bartley
Townsend

Livermore*
Mowatt
Sawyers

NP
Dike
Robinson

It has a lot in common with the 4-2-3-1 except Diangana does not fit on the right and needs to be replaced but Robinson goes into the first XI and Grant becomes a useful back up. Sawyers comes in as an advanced playmaker

Given that there is very little midfield cover for full backs who are the sole width in this line up, an upgrade on Livermore in midfield is even more pressing. Tulloch and Fellows might be back up options for Robinson and as such maybe we could let Grant go.

3-4-3
 
GK

O’Shea
Kipre
NP

Gardner- Hickman
NP
Mowatt
Townsend

NP
Dike
Robinson

Here is a radical change from the back four options. I would play Kipre ahead of Bartley purely because he is better on the ball. With only two players in Central mid it is critical that the CB’s are at least competent on the ball. Equally we absolutely need a left footed player for the wide left CB role we only have one Bryan who is currently injured.

In Central midfield we need another 8 to play alongside Mowatt. However in this instance I would go for a new player rather than pressing either Sawyers or Livermore into service.

Up front we have the same issues as with the 4-3-3

3-4-2-1

GK

O’Shea
Kipre
NP

Gardner- Hickman
NP
Mowatt
Diangana

Sawyers
Robinson

Dike

This twist is the only way I can get Diangana and one of Robinson/Grant on the pitch. With a double pivot of two 6’s and 3 CB’s this is a very solid set up centrally and as such the Wing Backs in this set up are very attacking they will often be the most advanced players.

I have Robinson as the support striker playing alongside Sawyers as advanced playmaker but Tulloch might be a better fit.

If I were going to a 3-5-2 I certainly would look closely at the Tulloch option.

Whatever happens there is going to be a massive overhaul. There will be very little spare cash and a lot of the parachute payments will go just unwinding the terrible contracts we have committed to. However the first step has to appoint a Coach with a clear approach and ideally a DoF to help sort out the mess
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tegga on March 02, 2022, 07:59:11 AM
swansea are not world beaters but I felt Swansea played some good football which is a mile away from where we are. they showed whatever they practice on the training pitch they try to implement on match day. My point is they have a style/identity, they play out from the back, they play in triangles, they overlap full backs, they play nice little one twos with strikers to open up an attempt on goal. ITS BASIC STUFF THAT WE DONT DO. I can't remember in how many games where our players went through the same phase or sequence of play more than once apart from lumping it up to carroll. There is nothing. Is that down to chopping and changing managers/tactics etc..yes maybe, but surely now the powers that be anyone with half a football brain can see this. Someone seriously needs to get a grip of this club and stick with a plan
Bang on correct fellow Baggie.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on March 02, 2022, 08:59:21 AM
The issue we have in terms of the coach is that we’re pretty much up **** street and need promotion immediately

I’ve no doubt that Gourlays contacts only stretch to British experienced managers like Bruce and he would deem this an unsuitable job for a novice to rebuild. Wed only sack them six months later anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 02, 2022, 11:33:11 AM
Picking through the wreckage. My view is Bruce cannot be left in charge so I am not even going to attempt to 2nd guess what he might want because frankly that is no longer relevant.  If he is in charge yes close the thread because we are a tactics free zone and every Championship manager and his dog will rock up at the Hawthorns and outwit Bruce.

As much as I would like to bin the entire squad that is not going to happen but equally it is an imbalanced mess which does need a lot of remedial work.

The question is now what does look like after those out of contract depart and what is the fewest steps we can take to getting something coherent on the pitch

I am going to take 4 formations (4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-2-1 and 3-4-3) and work through what we have and what we need.

...

Thanks for this analysis.  I'm not one for rigid formations; 3-4-3 can easily become 4-4-2 if  a player in each of  the front two tiers drops back when a team loses possession.  The principal criterion is that your squad members must be flexible.  I would choose one which suits whatever players we have available at the start of the next season.

I guess your assumptioon is that Clarke will not be with us then.  He's a loanee I would definitely keep - whether he would want to stay is another matter.   As you write, a back three needs a left footer. 
I would definitely include Kipre.  The other person whom I think is worth bringing into the squad is Ingram at RB.

I'm anxious for O'Shea and Mowatt.  I've had my doubts about the physio-medical capability at the club ever since the time of Appleton.  We do seem to have a lot of injuries that become permanent. (This and the recruitment function might be worthy of a separate thread:  Ancillary Functions )

There are players who can't / won't tackle in our present squad and two of them (Grant, Diangana) cost us dear.  Any one who (I hope) takes over from Bruce will need to find a way of using them.  Diangana can play as an out and out winger so surely that must be where he's put; I don't think he's achieved anything when played as a midfielder.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 02, 2022, 03:22:05 PM
Thanks for this analysis.  I'm not one for rigid formations; 3-4-3 can easily become 4-4-2 if  a player in each of  the front two tiers drops back when a team loses possession.  The principal criterion is that your squad members must be flexible.  I would choose one which suits whatever players we have available at the start of the next season.

I guess your assumptioon is that Clarke will not be with us then.  He's a loanee I would definitely keep - whether he would want to stay is another matter.   As you write, a back three needs a left footer. 
I would definitely include Kipre.  The other person whom I think is worth bringing into the squad is Ingram at RB.

I'm anxious for O'Shea and Mowatt.  I've had my doubts about the physio-medical capability at the club ever since the time of Appleton.  We do seem to have a lot of injuries that become permanent. (This and the recruitment function might be worthy of a separate thread:  Ancillary Functions )

There are players who can't / won't tackle in our present squad and two of them (Grant, Diangana) cost us dear.  Any one who (I hope) takes over from Bruce will need to find a way of using them.  Diangana can play as an out and out winger so surely that must be where he's put; I don't think he's achieved anything when played as a midfielder.



I agree about in game shape shifting but typically formations indicate where on the pitch a player is playing and roughly what is needed from them to make the team function it is something to hang analysis on.

My working assumption is that all of the players out of contract leave. If the coach wanted to work with a back 3 then I think Clarke might be the best CB we could hire. I wouldn't get him back if we had a coach who wanted to work with a 4 because he is best playing in a 3, we have enough CB's to find a working 2 plus cover and our issues are generally elsewhere on the pitch.

I have to say with some of the players I am hoping that the best player they might be can be rekindled because if it can't we are going straight to hell boys (aka as League 1). Part of that is getting them into a position on the pitch where this is most likely to happen. 

No better case in point than Diangana. He is a left winger one that is not the best off the ball but about as good as it gets on it at this level. I was wrong about him I thought he could play as an inverted forward, saw no reason why not but he just looks like a fish out of water in that role.  Either play him as a left winger or don't play at all and if that is the case then we have sell him or loan him whatever so he isn't hanging around the place like the ghost at the banquet.

The summer is massive but I absolutely don't care what we bring in if we don't work properly with what we have already  then it really is League 1 the season after. 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on March 02, 2022, 07:29:17 PM
There is the crux of the problem right there Stan - it is patently clear Diangana needs to play on the left to have any hope of rediscovering his form - something Slaven Bilic has apparently said in the last few weeks - and yet we have a problem. That problem is Autumn 2020's recruitment, where we signed 3 players in quick succession who all operate best in the same area of the pitch. It wasnt even hard to predict either - go back and you will see a few of us who warned this could happen.

Both managers this season have tried to solve the riddle by persisting with Diangana on the right, maybe with some encouragement from the player himself, but it just isn't working. Our issue at the moment is a lack of goals and thise goals are missing because of a lack of creativity in the squad. The only logical step I can see is sacrificing Grant and Robinson in their best positions to accommodate Diangana on the left as he remains our best chance of breaking teams down.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DevonInStripes on March 02, 2022, 08:15:20 PM
Two players who should start but seem to be out of Bruce’s plans are Clarke and Kipre . At least we were keeping some clean sheets when they started . Without them it’s 2 goals conceded every game at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 02, 2022, 09:50:28 PM
There is the crux of the problem right there Stan - it is patently clear Diangana needs to play on the left to have any hope of rediscovering his form - something Slaven Bilic has apparently said in the last few weeks - and yet we have a problem. That problem is Autumn 2020's recruitment, where we signed 3 players in quick succession who all operate best in the same area of the pitch. It wasnt even hard to predict either - go back and you will see a few of us who warned this could happen.

Both managers this season have tried to solve the riddle by persisting with Diangana on the right, maybe with some encouragement from the player himself, but it just isn't working. Our issue at the moment is a lack of goals and thise goals are missing because of a lack of creativity in the squad. The only logical step I can see is sacrificing Grant and Robinson in their best positions to accommodate Diangana on the left as he remains our best chance of breaking teams down.

Agreed

Grant is the biggest problem he is a one trick pony and the trick either scores goals or it is a complete and utter waste of space. Unfortunately Robinson who is more use if he is not directly contributing goals and has a little bit more flexibility but he wants to play wide left.

As I said earlier this season is gone and Bruce with it. However someone somewhere has to make some hard choices we won't get better until this is resolved and it cannot be resolved with Robinson/Grant/Diangana all at the club. It won't be unwound without quite a bit of financial pain. But right now we could ship out Grant on loan pay half his wages pick up an average Championship player for half his wages and be better off.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 03, 2022, 08:19:07 AM
Despite the occasional encouraging passage of play I haven't got the foggiest idea what our current tactics are. When we go forwards the players look like a collection of individuals and when they defend they look like nervous chickens trying to evade a farmer's axe. We look an absolute mess for the most part.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionFan on March 03, 2022, 10:18:42 AM
There are plenty of systems and tactics freely available on Twitter, I surprised none of our coaches have picked up on them  8)

https://twitter.com/kstdnv4/status/1498707225308770313

https://twitter.com/CoachPrunt/status/1498670143056011271
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 03, 2022, 10:48:03 AM
When you think about it since Bournemouth away all we've really done is swap one two man midfield for another with Molumby in for Livermore, sacrifice a centre half for the 'creative force' of Reach further up while abandoning the high press and balls into the box from wide now we have a genuine target man. We must be an opposing manager's dream to play through and against. UnXXXXXXX believable.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionFan on March 03, 2022, 03:03:08 PM
As it's Personnel related, I thought this might be the best place to post

Adam Johnson leaves behind-the-scenes role at West Brom to join England set-up

https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2022/03/03/adam-johnson-leaves-behind-the-scenes-role-at-west-brom-to-join-england-set-up/
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 03, 2022, 03:55:36 PM
We must have been doing something right at some point......
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 06, 2022, 08:59:58 AM
In crude terms we played a 3-5-2.

Key points:

Return to a 3 man defence and we looked better for it
Livermore played in the holding role with Gardner-Hickman on the Right and Mowatt on the left
Up front we played a 2 Grant and Robinson although the latter played behind Grant. Both drifted left particularly Robinson.

Grant as Centre Forward might work at Championship level but we need decent possession to make it work there is zero point in punting long balls and hoping that Grant competes aerially. Yesterday we had 45% possession but given that we were ahead in the game for a long period that is not entirely surprising.

Everything looked better.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on March 06, 2022, 10:44:58 AM
In crude terms we played a 3-5-2.

Key points:

Return to a 3 man defence and we looked better for it
Livermore played in the holding role with Gardner-Hickman on the Right and Mowatt on the left
Up front we played a 2 Grant and Robinson although the latter played behind Grant. Both drifted left particularly Robinson.

Grant as Centre Forward might work at Championship level but we need decent possession to make it work there is zero point in punting long balls and hoping that Grant competes aerially. Yesterday we had 45% possession but given that we were ahead in the game for a long period that is not entirely surprising.

Everything looked better.

It's interesting that Mowatt actually spent more time further forward than Callum Robinson did yesterday.

We did indeed like up 352, it was strikingly obvious from the initial kick off, we were literally in three lines across the park, but Robinson was clearly asked to drop deeper than Grant with Mowatt breaking from the left and Gardner-Hickman from the right.

Second half, as you say, we just managed the game really once we scored the penalty. That was perfectly understandable and sensible given the run we've been on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on March 06, 2022, 11:42:54 AM
I've been calling for  352 most of this season, I'm pleased that yesterday was a sort of that set up
It proved to be the right one this time but O'Shea should be one of the 3, in the centre imo
But a win is a win if we could beat our next 2 opponents we might be onto something
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 06, 2022, 11:57:10 AM
I'm concerned about O'Shea.  The injury he picked up playing for his country was bad.  I think he needs to be managed carefully and possibly needs some time with a sports psychologist.  Does Albion have such a person or is that too modern?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: CL3MO on March 06, 2022, 12:44:43 PM
I've been calling for  352 most of this season, I'm pleased that yesterday was a sort of that set up
It proved to be the right one this time but O'Shea should be one of the 3, in the centre imo
But a win is a win if we could beat our next 2 opponents we might be onto something

I think I’d like to see O’Shea in at RCB but (although he was playing RB) he was god awful last game. Skinned several times and couldn’t pass wind. It’s probably understandable though after his injury.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on March 06, 2022, 12:49:16 PM
I think I’d like to see O’Shea in at RCB but (although he was playing RB) he was god awful last game. Skinned several times and couldn’t pass wind. It’s probably understandable though after his injury.

He probably could've done with a couple more U23 games before we put him back amongst the first team squad.

I agree RCB is his best position.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on March 12, 2022, 04:15:51 PM
Touched on something in the Diangana thread but I feel he is one we need to build around going forward into next season and that means no back 3 but a 4231/442 possibly a 433.

We need to look at the future. O Shea, Grady, TGH, Dike and possibly Cleary.

So much hinges on what we can clear out but in my mind we need to target a back 4 that includes O'Shea, re-sign Clarke, a new RB. TGH either in the middle or RAM in a 4231. Grady on the left, Dike up top.

The likes of Bartley, Ajayi, Furlong, Livermore & Phillips need to be our back up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on March 13, 2022, 10:13:34 AM
Touched on something in the Diangana thread but I feel he is one we need to build around going forward into next season and that means no back 3 but a 4231/442 possibly a 433.

We need to look at the future. O Shea, Grady, TGH, Dike and possibly Cleary.

So much hinges on what we can clear out but in my mind we need to target a back 4 that includes O'Shea, re-sign Clarke, a new RB. TGH either in the middle or RAM in a 4231. Grady on the left, Dike up top.

The likes of Bartley, Ajayi, Furlong, Livermore & Phillips need to be our back up.

I’d sign Clarke too, but I expect he will want out if the atmosphere is as bad as is rumoured. He’s one of a few who actually have the chance of fresh start.

Having Bartley, Ajayi, Furlong, Livermore and Philips as back up is going to hamstring us, that’s far too much in wages tied up in back ups for the championship. 

I think we need a keeper, two full backs, a midfielder and a number 10. As well as a right winger.  On top of that we need Dike to be the real deal.

That’s a huge ask.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on March 13, 2022, 10:51:16 AM
Albion need to identify one position which transforms the team in the most effective way.

That position is a creative midfielder in the Koumas / Pereira mould.

Shipping out 4 or 5 players to get the best possible player is what we should do.

In the short term it would be clever to have a closer look at Castro to see if he's up to it?

Teams that have overtaken us such as Forest, QPR, Sheff Utd, Huddersfield aren't significantly better.  We are one quality playmaker away from getting back to their level.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 13, 2022, 11:50:09 AM
I can't think of one team above us who have a creative playmaker.

What they do have is one or two midfield players who can boss the middle of the pitch, they are not easily dispossessed.
We lose the ball too easily in the middle third, & none of our midfield players are coming for the ball, the link between defence & attack is broken.

As other members of the forum have said, we need another Mulumbu.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 13, 2022, 12:30:15 PM
I can think of plenty and have watched them this season, but I agree with your point.  We can't believe that all that's necessary is to acquire one outstanding player - he'd soon be nullified by the opposition.  We need an attractive team playing style that all the team buys into and all can contribute.  That's the way Brentford build their squad  - how much does each player augment the effectiveness of the whole team.    Only the monied clubs can afford the individually excellent and need two or three of such.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 13, 2022, 04:47:12 PM
I think the concept of building a team around one special player is very old school thinking. The give it to player x in the hope of them doing something magical isn't a substitute for having a solid plan and a team functioning as a unit. It also only works when the player concerned is the outstanding player in the Division this might work in the Championship but it falls to pieces pretty quickly in the Premier League.

I am pretty convinced this was very much the case with the Bililc season it also was Bruce's approach with Saint Maximim at Newcastle. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggie79 on March 13, 2022, 11:27:23 PM
Albion need to identify one position which transforms the team in the most effective way.

That position is a creative midfielder in the Koumas / Pereira mould.

Shipping out 4 or 5 players to get the best possible player is what we should do.

In the short term it would be clever to have a closer look at Castro to see if he's up to it?

Teams that have overtaken us such as Forest, QPR, Sheff Utd, Huddersfield aren't significantly better.  We are one quality playmaker away from getting back to their level.

Who on earth is going to pay £20/25/30k per week for the likes of Bartley, Phillips, Furlong,Livermore, Mowatt, Robinso, Grant and Zohore. It just wont happen as clubs wont pay the wages and they wont take a drop in wages.

This means we wont be making any changes to the current squad and definitely no mass clearout as people want. Depressing but true.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wodenson46 on March 14, 2022, 09:36:27 AM
What about taking the players away for pre-season altitude training in the Himalayas, near to the borders with Tibet? If a few managed to get a bit 'lost' I am sure the Chinese authorities would eventually point em in a direction back down ;) ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: darbolina on March 14, 2022, 11:34:45 AM
Who on earth is going to pay £20/25/30k per week for the likes of Bartley, Phillips, Furlong,Livermore, Mowatt, Robinso, Grant and Zohore. It just wont happen as clubs wont pay the wages and they wont take a drop in wages.

This means we wont be making any changes to the current squad and definitely no mass clearout as people want. Depressing but true.

The key is to add a handful of players who add quality and leadership to wake up those we're stuck with. The squad is very imbalanced in terms of playing style but also very imbalanced in terms of characters - we need to vocal , aggressive characters in there who aren't afraid to pull up colleagues who are sauntering around the pitch or hiding.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on March 14, 2022, 12:37:00 PM
I think the concept of building a team around one special player is very old school thinking. The give it to player x in the hope of them doing something magical isn't a substitute for having a solid plan and a team functioning as a unit. It also only works when the player concerned is the outstanding player in the Division this might work in the Championship but it falls to pieces pretty quickly in the Premier League.

I am pretty convinced this was very much the case with the Bililc season it also was Bruce's approach with Saint Maximim at Newcastle.

Will also be short term as a stand out player will be "enticed" to join a bigger / richer club and where are you then ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on March 14, 2022, 01:41:21 PM
Will also be short term as a stand out player will be "enticed" to join a bigger / richer club and where are you then ?
But that is the food chain
Personally I’d be getting Krovinovic back and going after Tom cairney/Harrison reed
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on March 14, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
But that is the food chain
Personally I’d be getting Krovinovic back and going after Tom cairney/Harrison reed

They may be willing to let Cairney go, think he has fallen out of favour a little. Perhaps on loan, incase they come back down. Reed plays 70 plus minutes most weeks though so I don't think he will be going anywhere.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on March 14, 2022, 03:45:20 PM
They may be willing to let Cairney go, think he has fallen out of favour a little. Perhaps on loan, incase they come back down. Reed plays 70 plus minutes most weeks though so I don't think he will be going anywhere.
But when they go up he may be deemed surplus?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 14, 2022, 03:47:58 PM
Cairney is on 40k a week apparently, some papers reported 60k with no flex down plus 2 years left on his deal, next to no chance.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 16, 2022, 02:47:53 PM
It seems that Bruce has settled on 3-5-2 as his go to shape.

We look a lot more solid defensively and against Fulham out of possession it was 5-4-1 for chunks of the game but to be fair we transitioned reasonably well with both wing backs having at least 50% of their touches in the Fulham half.

It remains to be seen how effective this will be against teams less ambitious than Fulham (pretty much everybody else in this Division).

However this is the shape that best fits the current squad and as such should be the platform going forward into next season. It is easier to recruit effectively into this set up than anything else and in terms of getting the most improvement with the fewest transactions this is the way to go.

Never the less it really does leave a few players in the squad high and dry in that their natural positions don't exist. In particular Phillips and Diangana.

We have something to build on here
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on March 17, 2022, 08:17:40 AM
And your post Stan just highlights how brain numbingly stupid it was to award Phillips with a new three year contract..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: AlbionFan on March 17, 2022, 08:41:33 AM
And your post Stan just highlights how brain numbingly stupid it was to award Phillips with a new three year contract..

It further demonstrates how naive and what little footballing knowledge we had at the time, the fruits of which we will continue to pay for, for the duration of his contract, madness!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on March 17, 2022, 08:46:00 AM
Fellows will be another likely to suffer from a 3-5-2. In my eyes he showed enough to suggest he could feature more over the next couple of years as he looked more direct and quicker than Diangana or Phillips. Options are needed of course for occasions where the formation changes including bench options for chasing a game or pushing for a winner late on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 17, 2022, 05:10:26 PM
And your post Stan just highlights how brain numbingly stupid it was to award Phillips with a new three year contract..

Yes, it is unfathomable given that Val was always going with a back 3. It pretty much kills the traditional wingers in the squad (as it did when Bilic inexplicably went to that shape at the start of last season) Yet if Bruce opts for a back 4 the wingers (Dianagna , Phillips and Fellowes) become key.

It is possible to imagine them being used as wing backs in a very positive 3-2-3-2 with little more tracking back than you would expect in a 4-2-3-1 but even at Championship level Bruce isn't going down that route his wing backs will be primarily converted full backs that give him the option of dropping into a back 5.

There was a lot of chat about Val not being flexible tactically but the one thing you cannot be flexible with is back 3 or 4 it is one or the other as a platform everything is structured from it all the positioning and patterns of play build from there.

I hope that Bruce settles one or the other and we can build with a little bit of consistency.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 17, 2022, 05:50:13 PM
I'm not sure VI saw Matt Phillips as an out & out winger, he & other managers saw him as an alternative centre forward.
IMO, it was that flexibility, which led to the extended contract.

On the other hand, 3 years is probably too generous.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on March 18, 2022, 09:16:21 AM
I'm not sure VI saw Matt Phillips as an out & out winger, he & other managers saw him as an alternative centre forward.
IMO, it was that flexibility, which led to the extended contract.

On the other hand, 3 years is probably too generous.

VI and flexibility in same paragraph - guffaw!

MP & GD have to hope that Sb sees 3 at the back as a formation for this season only.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GREGMT on March 19, 2022, 04:04:40 PM
Absolute joke, this set up.

Totally nullifies any creativity.

The 1st goal in matches is all important (and too often we don't get it).

I'm sorry but 3 CB's and Livermore / Mowatt as a combination does nothing to get on the front foot.

We are supposed to be a big club in this division and taking the game to the opposition both home and away?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie38 on March 19, 2022, 04:11:47 PM
Really don't want Bruce to be the one to see over our biggest and most important summer in years.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on March 19, 2022, 08:46:18 PM
Does anyone have a list of our squad and contract lengths to hand?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 19, 2022, 10:27:08 PM
Does anyone have a list of our squad and contract lengths to hand?

Mark W posted this some time ago

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit)

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 20, 2022, 09:45:13 AM
He's awful in the opposition box, considering how much he wins and what little it leads to. As for his own box, he's poor. O'Shea should really be in for him, far superior player. Kipre is also better in my opinion.

After a bad injury, a player has to get fully fit not only physically but mentally.  I wonder whether O'Shea is ready to come back,  some players never get back.  Something similar seems to be happening with Mowatt, he seemed to be quicker and more involved before his injury.

This brings me back to club rebuild.  Are our backstage functions up to modern practise?   Have we bought players back too early in our desperation to get promotion?  Are our therapy and recruitment set-ups fit for purpose?  Does our fitness regime give enough attention to diet, sleep patterns and sport psychology.  These functions are the foundation for the club.  Do we need to sacrifice the Academy to improve them?

Is anybody at the club thinking about longer term issues or is everyone vainly trying to get promoted a.s.a.p.?

 ... and yes, Kipre should be playing instead of KB

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on March 20, 2022, 10:49:22 PM
Mark W posted this some time ago

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit)

O’Shea’s contract expiring 2023 worries me, that needs to be sorted. As does potentially Ajayi and Rico Richards.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on March 20, 2022, 11:37:29 PM
Mark W posted this some time ago

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aIdEpp_djK9s8DmZxUa1m3I4X9hpv-gSFz9EuHNSiKk/edit)



Thanks for the credit but it's Standaman who keeps that updated. I may well have reposted at a later date, though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on March 21, 2022, 08:28:56 AM
Thanks for the credit but it's Standaman who keeps that updated. I may well have reposted at a later date, though.

Credit to Standaman, just I remember you posting it.

The question about contracts is asked quite often on the forum, would it  be possible to pin it to the top of this topic?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on March 21, 2022, 08:31:11 AM
Credit to Standaman, just I remember you posting it.

The question about contracts is asked quite often on the forum, would it  be possible to pin it to the top of this topic?

It’s a great shout actually that because I have to spend time searching third party sites.

Give us a bit of time and we’ll look at creating a topic that we can sticky to the main forum
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on March 21, 2022, 09:26:13 AM
I'm still of the opinion that we do have a nucleus of young players who have talent, I hope we buy Clarke, to him I add Grady, O'Shea TGH Kipper Grant Dike Palmer all as far as I'm aware are mid 20'at most I've probably missed one or two out but you get my meaning
They've experience the travails of this league they'll know now what it takes, we must obviously be careful who we buy but I want starving young talent, it's time for the changing of the guard, one or two experienced players OK but young talent bought cheaply will be difficult but it's needed for a rebuild
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on March 21, 2022, 01:33:29 PM
Credit to Standaman, just I remember you posting it.

The question about contracts is asked quite often on the forum, would it  be possible to pin it to the top of this topic?

Topic created detailing the age and contract length of our current squad:

http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=26843.0
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jimmyj on March 21, 2022, 01:46:22 PM
I'm still of the opinion that we do have a nucleus of young players who have talent, I hope we buy Clarke, to him I add Grady, O'Shea TGH Kipper Grant Dike Palmer all as far as I'm aware are mid 20'at most I've probably missed one or two out but you get my meaning
They've experience the travails of this league they'll know now what it takes, we must obviously be careful who we buy but I want starving young talent, it's time for the changing of the guard, one or two experienced players OK but young talent bought cheaply will be difficult but it's needed for a rebuild

Kean Bryan as well, never got a sniff and could/should be a good slot in.
I too hope we purchase Clarke. Might be a bit overloaded with CB's, but its a position where that's not such a bad thing I think.
I think we have the makings of a good, young team currently. Potentially. Some won't be up to it, that's a given, but I think we have enough players on the young side to at least try and phase out Phillips/Bartley and replace Furlong.
Livermore has somewhat redeemed himself now that he doesn't feel the need to cover all areas of midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zac on March 21, 2022, 01:52:32 PM
Topic created detailing the age and contract length of our current squad:

http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=26843.0

That makes horrible reading, i didn't realise some of these average lot were tied down for so long!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on March 22, 2022, 10:06:04 PM
Centre midfield is the main area we need to strengthen, needs some creativity. Wonder if we’ll have a look at the lower leagues? Scott Twine has ridiculous numbers for MK dons In league one and is only 22. Could be worth a shout
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 23, 2022, 07:36:26 AM
Watched a compilation of Scott Twine's goals just the other day. Certainly has a good strike on him. Tied the opposition in knots.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on March 23, 2022, 07:57:10 AM
Watched a compilation of Scott Twine's goals just the other day. Certainly has a good strike on him. Tied the opposition in knots.
Glad you've got that one out of the way !

Anyway he did well at Newport on loan last year - goals and assists before he got recalled by Swindon prior to the MK Dons move.

If Bruce is staying at least he has already commented on a lop-sided squad and lack of central midfielders. I live in hope that he sees the need for at least one AM to increase our goal threat while still being able to muck out a bit in midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 23, 2022, 08:52:28 AM
Watched a compilation of Scott Twine's goals just the other day. Certainly has a good strike on him. Tied the opposition in knots.

There's always a hitch.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on March 23, 2022, 09:12:51 AM
There's always a hitch.

They sold O’Riley for around £1.5m apparently so if MK Dons are not promoted I suspect Twine will have a similar price. Given our likely budget and overhaul someone like Twine is probably the sort of gamble we should take. Go reel him in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on March 23, 2022, 12:48:39 PM
I have no doubt that we would lose out due to tangled negotiations...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 07, 2022, 04:32:51 PM
Filling out theme on Bruce's tactics that started in the manager thread.

Bruce has seemed to alight on a 3-5-2. Certainly against Fulham and Bournemouth it was closer to 5-3-2. The wing backs aren't getting more involved going forward than traditional full backs. Although the Centre Backs do have the license to break forward both Clarke and Ajayi cropped up in fairly advanced positions last night.

There are two issues. It is a counter attacking strategy which requires teams to attack us and in the Championship most don't. It has the same flaw that  Val's counter press had the opposition is disinclined to cooperate with it and when they don't we have to adjust. That in turn begs the question do we have the personnel to do something different and even if we do is the coach willing and able to do something different?

The answer in Val's case was probably not and no. It is also the answer with Bruce. We are in different place under Bruce but it isn't a better place. Our two standout issues remain ball retention/progression and  chance creation/conversion.

The view that we are a few tweaks away from addressing these issues I think is erroneous. We can and will bring new players in they will make a difference but the key is the coaching philosophy. So for instance we could address some of the issues from within the squad. Diangana and or Fellows at wingback. Kipre and O'Shea in the back 3 for their better distribution. If the team needs a 10 but doesn't have a senior player for the role take the best option from the under 23's and work with that. I'm not saying do all of the above but tactical innovation is at least as important as recruitment and is the only thing a coach can do during the season.



     

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on April 08, 2022, 03:24:55 AM
I would sign clarke. Retain carroll and play him up top with Dike next season. TGH in cm in a diamond with mowatt and Livermore diangana in the num 10 or free role unless we can get better. (Based on what/who we have)

I would except offers for Phillips, Zohore, Robinson, Grant, furlong, bartley, ajayi, livermore, mowatt, reach. Think the only player we might get bids for is Townsend- and for the right price i would sell.

Clarke oshea tgh dike carroll Townsend. New better midfield and a competent right back and keeper if we can get shot of some players
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alwaysbilly on April 08, 2022, 07:10:59 AM
That makes horrible reading, i didn't realise some of these average lot were tied down for so long!
Yes very depressing
A big well done to Dowling - did a great dismantling job.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on April 11, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
It is very strange that the people tasked with running Countries, Economies, Heath Services, Football Clubs all seem hell bent on making a complete backside of the job in hand. The only common sense, practical solutions seem to come from ordinary punters who seem to be able to grasp the reality and are not biased by ideology and narratives. Whether politicians who cannot define what a woman is or Football Coaches who cannot motivate or pick a winning team, we seem to be saddled with and surrounded by idiots just going through the motions. As for our players, they seem to think its the West Brom Hilton and most of them checked out weeks ago.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 11, 2022, 02:48:28 PM
It is very strange that the people tasked with running Countries, Economies, Heath Services, Football Clubs all seem hell bent on making a complete backside of the job in hand. The only common sense, practical solutions seem to come from ordinary punters who seem to be able to grasp the reality and are not biased by ideology and narratives. Whether politicians who cannot define what a woman is or Football Coaches who cannot motivate or pick a winning team, we seem to be saddled with and surrounded by idiots just going through the motions. As for our players, they seem to think its the West Brom Hilton and most of them checked out weeks ago.
Politics alert ! Let's stick to the football mess please.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 11, 2022, 03:33:03 PM
The outcome on Saturday was entirely predictable from a tactical perspective. In a game where our opponents were never going to over commit and were not going to be rattled by the physical presence of Andy Carroll the first goal was critical. Once we conceded it all Bruce's tactical faults were exposed.

Three at the back is a misnomer in the hands of this generation of English managers it is a back 5. The equation is a simple one shore up the defence put more defenders on the pitch need to chase the game put more attackers on. This is done with very little thought to how this impacts the team how we progress the ball or retain the ball. In short it is pretty aimless.

The answer against Stoke would have been to be insanely aggressive with the wing backs positioning to push Stoke deeper and get in behind the Stoke defence. The only time they looked remotely troubled was when we threw caution to the wind and Adam Reach got down the left for the last 10 minutes of normal time. Diangana would have been better deployed doing that the whole game.

There are answers to our problems but you do need to at least look and have the imagination to do something different, exactly what do we have to lose?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on April 11, 2022, 04:10:49 PM
Watched a compilation of Scott Twine's goals just the other day. Certainly has a good strike on him. Tied the opposition in knots.
But is Bruce serious about a squad overhaul or is he just stringing us along?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tex on April 11, 2022, 08:39:42 PM
what he wants and what he gets will be two different things
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on April 11, 2022, 09:20:03 PM
Although I don't want Bruce to be in charge, I think he will be next season. What he needs to be doing with the remainder of the season is experiencing with different personnel and systems ahead of next year. This has been talked about elsewhere on the forum, but for what it is worth, here are my thoughts.

Goalkeepers

I would be looking to give either Button or Palmer the remaining 5 games as Johnstone won't be here next season. Whether I'd utilise both all of Button, Palmer and Griffiths next year, some of them, or go to the market, depends completely on the style of play and tactics I'd be looking to play and whether their strengths match. I haven't seen enough of any of them to really judge but would probably be underwhelmed if at 33 and having never been a first choice keeper anywhere, Button suddenly becomes ours.

Defence

Whilst I think the back 3 has been our best choice this season, due to the fact the squad was built with this in mind and the personnel available, I would switch this and move to a back 4 with next season in mind.

Centre backs - We have a number of decent Championship centre backs. Clarke has been the one as a left sided player who has really brought balance to that back three however he is not our player and we would have to use resource that we need elsewhere to fund signing him, for a good if not spectacular centre back that I'm unsure whether he could make the step up, is not a transfer I would be willing to sanction. His natural replacement Bryan has never really been established as a first team player in senior football and is coming off of a terrible injury so I wouldn't count on him either. That leaves O'Shea, Bartley, Kipre and Ajayi with Taylor, who I'd be looking to loan out and Bryan as backup which is a decent quartet. I would be tempted to move one on if possible and potentially utilise a loan here.

Full backs/Wing backs - Whilst Townsend had a good first half of the season and Furlong the good odd game here and there, I don't believe either is devastating enough offensively to justify a system with wing backs. Much of Townsend's excellence is in ball progression whilst he also has a decent cross, he can continue to be a threat in both of these regards as a full back and showed this in the second half of our Premier League campaign. Furlong's main attributes are physical but he is not great on the ball, not a great crosser nor a good dribbler to expect goals and assists from him as a wing back, therefore I would plan to use him as an orthodox full back. Certainly Reach as a backup to Townsend doesn't scream threatening wing back and Furlong's understudies are the untried Ingram and Gardner-Hickman who has established himself in the centre of midfield. Reach can probably pass as backup at left back for Townsend, with Bryan maybe as an option and then Ingram would be Furlong's backup with Gardner-Hickman and if needed, O'Shea as options.

Centre Midfield

As we know, this is a mess. We have Livermore who is only really suited now to be a defensive midfielder who can screen the defence fairly well but offers nothing else; Molumby who can be a useful ball winner but doesn't bring much else other than the ability to carry it; Gardner-Hickman and Mowatt who are all rounds of sorts but are better with slight freedom to make runs forward and then the returning Sawyers. sawyers we have seen as a deep lying playmaker but needs an elite ball winner with legs around him to cover for his defensive inefficiencies or as an advanced playmaker who doesn't offer a great deal in terms of goals. Recruitment here all very much circles around style of play and I expect we could be hamstrung here regards turnover the personnel as I can't see any of them, Sawyers apart, being able to be moved on. With that in mind, the most pragmatic thing to do would be to structure the centre of midfield a little as it is now with a defensive midfielder and two 8's so I'd look to recruit a creative 8 to compete with Mowatt, Sawyers and Gardner-Hickman and would task Molumby and Livermore to compete for the spot as the defensive midfielder. I don't really like it but think we might be hamstrung here.

Forwards

With the investment in Dike, we need to utilise him as well as possible. We also have Grant and Diangana who I can't see being able to be moved on due to our investment in them, we then also have Robinson and Phillips, yes I am forgetting about Zohore. Diangana needs to play wide, that is clear and I'd like to see him returned to the left to see if he can thrive again. Grant is really just a finisher with decent off the ball movement, he needs to be high up and not really involved with building the play. I would like to see Grant tried on the right these last few games to see how he gets on, Robinson doesn't really stick there when he plays there, Phillips is past his best and Diangana hasn't really set the world alight there - he isn't enough of a threat when cutting in. I'd be very open to moving Robinson and Phillips on and replacing them with a player comfortable as a right winger and someone comfortable on both but who could drift inside. I would not keep Carroll and would look to sign a backup for Dike. I really think some changes in the forward line will be absolutely key and should be a priority as I think in terms of numbers and ability to move players on, it is the area that we could potentially make the most happen.

I've tried not to be too radical as I don't think we will be able to be too radical with our business, my suggestions above probably lack legs around the park, which will be required if we play with wide wingers but I think it is a pragmatic view of the squad and an idea for a system and some personnel decisions with which to build. I could be way off but hope at least that Bruce is at least going through a similar thought process, we absolutely have to get a jump on next season and have an idea of what we are recruiting to, otherwise we will be scrambling around at the end of the summer with incoherent recruitment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on April 11, 2022, 09:42:17 PM
I think you're right about the midfield.
I'm not sure we need a creative midfielder, but somebody in the Joe Allen / Johnny Howson mould.
Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a bid for Matty Longstaff from Newcastle.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Gilsey 56 on April 11, 2022, 10:03:47 PM
The outcome on Saturday was entirely predictable from a tactical perspective. In a game where our opponents were never going to over commit and were not going to be rattled by the physical presence of Andy Carroll the first goal was critical. Once we conceded it all Bruce's tactical faults were exposed.

Three at the back is a misnomer in the hands of this generation of English managers it is a back 5. The equation is a simple one shore up the defence put more defenders on the pitch need to chase the game put more attackers on. This is done with very little thought to how this impacts the team how we progress the ball or retain the ball. In short it is pretty aimless.

The answer against Stoke would have been to be insanely aggressive with the wing backs positioning to push Stoke deeper and get in behind the Stoke defence. The only time they looked remotely troubled was when we threw caution to the wind and Adam Reach got down the left for the last 10 minutes of normal time. Diangana would have been better deployed doing that the whole game.

There are answers to our problems but you do need to at least look and have the imagination to do something different, exactly what do we have to lose?
Couldn't agree more, when we play sides who don't commit to any kind of attacking, we are totally lacking   any kind of idea on how to break these sides down. You could definitely see this game playing out as it did.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 12, 2022, 07:51:54 AM
I think you're right about the midfield.
I'm not sure we need a creative midfielder, but somebody in the Joe Allen / Johnny Howson mould.
Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a bid for Matty Longstaff from Newcastle.
I think we absolutely need a high energy attacking midfielder in our ranks. Someone who will help with the midfield graft but who will also look to get forward, get in the box and get us 7 or 8 goals a season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 12, 2022, 01:39:41 PM
Couple of developments which might give us a direction of travel next season.

Keepers

Looks like we have opened discussions to extend Button's deal and have a three way contest for the keeper slot

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/04/11/west-brom-keeper-trio-are-set-to-battle-it-out-for-number-one-spot/

I am not adverse to keeping Button in the mix given that Palmer and Griffiths are quite inexperienced so we do have a fall back option if either of them lose their way. However I am not enamoured with the notion of 3 way battle for the jersey. In reality it should be a clear number 1 choice back up and the third keeper out on loan with an recall option. All 3 at the club makes little sense.

Matt Clarke

Bruce has open talks with the defender to join us next year.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/04/12/matt-clarke-could-remain-at-west-brom-next-season/

I like Matt Clarke I could argue he has been our most consistent performer this season under both managers. However there is one proviso he is pivotal in a back 3 but totally surplus in a back 4. This is a big tactical decision or least should be. Without him we cannot go to a back 3 but to justify his signing it has to be 3 at the back. Even with a back 3 we probably have to move one of the other Centre Backs on. 

From these 2 articles I would suggest Bruce expects to be here next season. There is some guff about him playing for his future along with the players, not entirely convinced by that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 12, 2022, 03:32:57 PM
Regarding the keepers, it may be influenced by the greater need to spend whatever money we might have available in other areas. All three keepers seem to be accepted as decent with Griffiths the youngest, hopefully having the potential to be the best within the next year or two. From where we are at it may not make sense to recruit a new clear No. 1 keeper especially if he's then vying with Griffiths for the No 1 slot in a year's time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on April 12, 2022, 07:27:04 PM
Keeper wise I think we could do better than Button, wasn’t that impressed by him again it’s looking like lazy recruitment by Albion. Like Clarke and if a deal can be done I’d be happy to have him but would like to see us revert back to a four at back with him and O’Shea with if possible a new right and left back. Midfield needs major surgery but has to consist of a trio as for forwards hopefully Dike will be fit with another striker who knows where the goal is. So 4141 or 433 would be my formation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheBaggieMan on April 12, 2022, 11:40:04 PM
I don’t think there is anyone at the club worth keeping and if it was possible, I’d order a taxi for every last one of them. Exception would be Elsie Golightly who serves the halftime tea in the Brummie
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggieBoy04 on April 13, 2022, 01:12:49 PM
Having Thought about our problems and the Squad Spine this is what I would
Manager Well Could we get anyone Better than Bruce Yes would we or if we did would they be backed no. Putting manager aside a bit here's the squad play 4-3-3 with Overlapping Full backs and pressing as is modern
Goalkeeper
Griffiths/Palmer Also Last 5 games play them maybe Rotate if one needs loaning to finish him do it. Button in that case as Backup
Left Back Hmm
Townsend as solid Backup or maybe stick with otherwise new LB
Centre Backs
O Shea Future Captain let's see that leadership as first choice CB
Ajayi/Kipre/Kid Ajayi looks OK at Times, Kipre has been OK if not a Kid or Matt Clarke that's the other CB Starting and his Sub and then Backup sorted. Take a pick out of those
Bartley Sell preferably to a Scrap man/Care Home or drop down the ranks use only in an emergency or as a Captain in a Game where you play kids against nobody and have bigger games coming up.
Right Back
TGH/O Shea as absolute emergency if not new Right Back It comes to something the one thing Furlong is good at Long Throw he now appears to not do anything and I've seen Non League players execute it better.
Midfeild arguably our weakest area.
Mowatt he can stay we need someone on Set Peices  or on the bench
TGH can play in Middle of The Park alas Coventry
Then Castro or Moloumby on the bench.
Attackers
Left Wing
Diangana he was amazing there admittedly he had Pereira as the CAM to give him the balls and space but he was on fire there Grant as Back up maybe or Robbo
Strikers
Dike with Caroll as Back up if not Tulloch
Right Wing
Grant/Robbo or Tulloch I think he can play there with Fellows or one of Grant/Robbo as Back up.
Players to sign
LB possibly
RB
CM
Backup Striker if not of the above fit requirements and Tulloch is utilised elsewhere.
Possible Youth Replacements
Castro
Clearly
Fellows
Ashworth
Ingram
Morton
Faal
Possible Signings
If Matty Longstaff joins he can go in Midfeild
If not Chelsea will be having a fire sale I'd we can convince/loan then buy if he performs get one of there youngsters in. Ie Billy Gilmour. Maybe bring in a Liverpool Kid they signed that Kid from Fulham he might be loaned back out I'd utilse him. Then Man Utd have Dallo, Brandon Williams so on maybe loan them. Plus foregin kids or English kids playing abroad ie Felix Nmecha who plays Bundersliga for Wolfsburg possibly. Then maybe sign some young American/Canadian other prodigy from the RB clubs. If Steve Bruce is in charge Longstaff will be coming in if he can get Gayle I would Love him back, Then with Ron's links to Chelsea he maybe able to get us some of there kids. If Bruce isn't here then God knows who we get but hopefully either someone Simmilar to Steve Cooper ie Ex Youth coach so would play kids and develop them and knows all the Prem academy players, a manager with English and Foregn experience ie Daniel Farke or if we are ambitious Rafa Benitez which will never happen sadly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: benalbion on April 15, 2022, 07:04:50 PM
I posted before about the club installing an identity from bottom to top and i agree with some of these posts with our limited transfer options about we have a spine of players to work with and 433 is a solid system to work on which a lot of successful clubs in europe use. 4 at the back with full backs bombing on, a defensive midfielder, (the so called makele/kante role) 2 attacking centre midfielders free to do their thing and 3 interchanging widemen/forwards. You dont have to be world beaters to install a system/identity and play well, just players that give a s##t and buy into what the club wants to do.

                                        Palmer

                          ?     Oshea   Clarke    ?
                                                 
                                        Molumby

                                 TGH    Sawyers

                          ?                        Diangana
                                        Dike

With the exception of Caroll, Townsend and maybe Mowatt couldnt care less if everyone else was sold
                   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on April 15, 2022, 07:17:44 PM
Bruce's tactics are play 7 defensive non creative players then throw as many strikers on as he can with no clear tactics when he needs a goal
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 16, 2022, 08:35:02 AM
I rather hoped that Bruce would just concentrate on getting a shape and style of play nailed down over the next few weeks. As such I was happy to see him make some changes and start with a 3-4-1-2.

Personally I think it has some merit with the players we have and possibly the easiest formation to recruit to over the summer.

We needed to be a lot more aggressive with the wing backs. With two DM's and 3 CB's on the pitch against modest opposition that is enough defensive cover. Although Reach was one of the better performers I would have rather have seen Diangana on the left and a more attacking option on the right Gardner-Hickman/Phillips/Fellows

We already knew that Robinson and Grant are pretty useless in combination unless you want  to clog up the left side of the pitch which they did. Robinson is not really a number 10 but maybe right now he is our least bad option.

We still have a real issue with ball progression. It is absolutely critical with a back 3 that the centre backs are reasonably competent with the ball at their feet and unfortunately Ajayi isn't although not as bad as Bartley. Neither of the DM's are great in that regard.

Yet with the addition of a 10,  signing of Matt Clarke and more aggressive choices at wing back this could be something to work with.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 30, 2022, 11:17:32 PM
Okay big pointer as to our set up for next season

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/04/30/west-brom-boss-steve-bruce-planning-to-play-back-four-next-season/

It looks like Bruce is going to a back 4 which because that is how he views playing progressive football (man is a dinosaur) but at least he acknowledges the need to win games and by implication his 5-3-2 is essentially a go to defensive formation.   

At least that decision has been made in good time so we can start to overhaul the squad. I understand why fans might have a retained list of 4 or 5 but that isn’t going to happen even if the rebuild is a little bit more extensive than I might have first thought

Realistically what can be done?

Stripping the squad down

Assuming that those players out of contract leave this removes

Carroll, Clarke, Button, Johnstone and Sawyers.

That leaves 19 Senior Pro’s none of which are goalkeepers although there are discussions on going with Button I suspect if these breakdown one of the slots will be used for a Senior keeper. 

It is supplemented by a cast of about 11 under 23’s who have made at least one Senior Appearance but can’t be called established 1st teamers. For sake of argument I have counted Gardner-Hickman as a Senior Pro.

Just replacing those players but not on a like for like basis particularly if you focussed recruitment on our weakest areas e.g. Central Midfield could give us a new look starting XI.

Going to a 4-2-3-1

Palmer

Furlong
O’Shea
Ajayi
Townsend

New Player
New Player

Gardner-Hickman
New Player
Diangana

Dike


Does it look different? Yes I know it still has your least favourite player in it (booo hisss) but just doing that might change things.

Depth

Full backs limited Reach and Ashworth left  Ingram right
Centre Backs Kipre, Bartley, Bryan and Taylor
Centre Mid Livermore Molumby and Mowatt
Right wing  Fellowes and Phillips
Attacking Midfield Castro
Centre Forward Grant, Robinson, and Zohore.

Issues (lots)

Working back to front

Goalkeeper there is no escaping the fact although promising both our keeping options are very inexperienced and having Button or an experienced keeper as third choice who could use the role to transition into coaching (not necessarily with us) might be a sensible option.

Full backs in an ideal world Furlong would be replaced and I was tempted to pencil in TGH at RB but that leaves the rookie Fellowes or the veteran and injury prone Phillips as first choice wingers. Overall I think we are better off with TGH further forward. Left back Townsend which is okay but limited cover in Reach although it was good to see Ashworth make his debut today

Centre Backs We have at least one too many (see below)
Centre Mid is fine although none of the current options are first choice and I am really not sure that they are great in a double pivot 
Right wing Is fine

Attacking mid Aside from Castro nothing
Left Wing Everything is structured to get the best out of Diangana if he does not rediscover form or is injured it falls to pieces. We have Reach as a potential back up but he is a very different player.
Centre Forward We don’t have like for like cover this is a huge issue
Player Trading

Aside from letting the out of contract players go and replacing I would be actively looking to move the following on Grant, Robinson, Tulloch, Zohore and Bartley/Kipre. On the best terms available be that sale or loan. Whatever it frees up should go on a Centre Forward Left Wing and Attacking Midfield cover. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on May 01, 2022, 06:33:37 AM
Hard to really know but I think Bruce is building from this:

Button

Furlong
Ajayi
Bartley
Townsend

Phillips
Livermore
Mowatt
Diangana

AM/SS

Dike

I'm not entirely sure that he is too drastic with it. Get the feeling we might see Grant up top with Dike.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on May 01, 2022, 09:07:59 AM
Grant is going nowhere.

He’s comfortably our top scorer and we still have to pay Huddersfield £8m. There’s no way we let him out on loan in these circumstances.

How much of a hit would we take to sell? Who knows but I think there’s still a big gap between what we would accept and what clubs who would be interested would pay.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 01, 2022, 09:17:23 AM
Hard to really know but I think Bruce is building from this:

Button

Furlong
Ajayi
Bartley
Townsend

Phillips
Livermore
Mowatt
Diangana

AM/SS

Dike

I'm not entirely sure that he is too drastic with it. Get the feeling we might see Grant up top with Dike.

Bruce has spoken on numerous occasions about the need for an overhaul if that is where we end up that isn't even a modest overhaul. Just replacing the players that are leaving gives us a bigger shake up than that. Incidentally dropping Grant into the AM/SS role breaks that formation even getting a natural number 10 into the role is just sticking lipstick on a pig.   

I would sell Grant for the money we owe to Huddersfield maybe less I would loan him for half the wages. Ignore the goals his all round play or lack thereof probably costs us more goals than he scores.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on May 01, 2022, 09:18:08 AM
Bruce has spoken on numerous occasions about the need for an overhaul if that is where we end up that isn't even a modest overhaul. Just replacing the players that are leaving gives us a bigger shake up than that. Incidentally dropping Grant into the AM/SS role breaks that formation even getting a natural number 10 into the role is just sticking lipstick on a pig.   

I would sell Grant for the money we owe to Huddersfield maybe less I would loan him for half the wages. Ignore the goals his all round play or lack thereof probably costs us more goals than he scores.

Definitely agree about Grant.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on May 01, 2022, 09:30:55 AM
Definitely agree about Grant.
Not if our transfer budget is almost zero. Sell him and you have to replace 15 goals minimum. In a more creative team probably more and yes I think he is in other aspects  a poor footballer goals win matches . I would much rather sell the lily livered one !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: bosh on May 01, 2022, 12:16:55 PM
You never know about Grant. Teams might see the goals return and be tempted to gamble on him in the prem. He does know where the net but his overall game has not improved - might have gotten worse since joining.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 01, 2022, 12:56:32 PM
You are never "replacing" goals you have to look at the whole picture and that does include the big minuses that are largely unseen. It also paints us into a particular tactical corner either 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 and we have to structure everything else around him.

As soon as he is central everything breaks down our shape is a mess and in this regard Robinson is a lot better option (not one I would reach for).

I also think there is a possibility that somebody makes the Billic mistake looks at the goals and buys them.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on May 01, 2022, 07:58:59 PM
You are never "replacing" goals you have to look at the whole picture and that does include the big minuses that are largely unseen. It also paints us into a particular tactical corner either 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 and we have to structure everything else around him.

As soon as he is central everything breaks down our shape is a mess and in this regard Robinson is a lot better option (not one I would reach for).

I also think there is a possibility that somebody makes the Billic mistake looks at the goals and buys them.

Hi Stan,

Have to say, I really appreciate your analysis of the sytems & tactics employed by recent WBA coaches, but I'm afraid it's a bit of a "woosh" for me.

Got to say, I'm a bit bemused by your conclusions that we would be better off without the 16 goal Karlam Grant.

In terms that can be understood by a tactical moron, could you explain please?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on May 01, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
16 goals yes, but so poor at all other elements of the game that a better all round player who links with others in a far productive manner, would probably result in the team scoring significantly more goals. That is my view in layman’s terms for what it’s worth.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 01, 2022, 08:18:31 PM
16 goals yes, but so poor at all other elements of the game that a better all round player who links with others in a far productive manner, would probably result in the team scoring significantly more goals. That is my view in layman’s terms for what it’s worth.

This. I'd also add the more he does the less our opposition can do. So any holding the ball up, retaining possession, closing down, winning free kicks, corners and throw ins from the extra effort he is putting in helps not only us in attack but takes a bit of pressure off us in defence.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 01, 2022, 08:48:06 PM
Hi Stan,

Have to say, I really appreciate your analysis of the sytems & tactics employed by recent WBA coaches, but I'm afraid it's a bit of a "woosh" for me.

Got to say, I'm a bit bemused by your conclusions that we would be better off without the 16 goal Karlam Grant.

In terms that can be understood by a tactical moron, could you explain please?

Imagine a city's road network, maybe even Birmingham. If everyone drove on the same roads, maybe the M5, then there would be too much traffic, and overall, everyone would travel slower, even though it might be more direct and have a higher capacity. If some people choose to use the side roads, then there's less traffic, and so the overall system becomes more efficient.

In the same manner, Grant is like the motorway with everyone on it. He gets a lot of chances, but also hinders the team through turning the ball over, or shooting when there is a better placed teammate.

That's the jist of what I got from Stan's post. It's basically entropy, I think?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on May 02, 2022, 04:20:39 AM
Bruce has spoken on numerous occasions about the need for an overhaul if that is where we end up that isn't even a modest overhaul.

Yeah quite, I'm just suggesting we won't get what's been promised. A big overhaul would be moving on some of the regulars and bigger personalities of recent years such as Livermore and Bartley - I still don't think that's very easy to do and I haven't seen enough in Bruce's team selections to suggest that will happen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 02, 2022, 07:46:25 AM
Yeah quite, I'm just suggesting we won't get what's been promised. A big overhaul would be moving on some of the regulars and bigger personalities of recent years such as Livermore and Bartley - I still don't think that's very easy to do and I haven't seen enough in Bruce's team selections to suggest that will happen.
Listening to the podcast, Bartley was mentioned as someone who has carried on living in Yorkshire so falling foul of this preference/directive that players need to live less than 90 minutes away from the training ground. Masi made it sound as though there is a genuine intention of paying off one or two. I would assume that those with one year left on their contract and who live more than 90 minutes away would be prime suspects...so Bartley would fit that bill.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 02, 2022, 03:03:05 PM
Addressing a couple of points raised.

I do understand a certain amount of cynicism about the extent of the rebuild. However the basis I posted on was replacement of those that will be leaving e.g. Sawyers, Carroll, Clarke and Johnstone.

It is very obvious from Bruce's comments that there is a an intention to move some on who and how will only be revealed as the summer progresses. For obvious reasons Bruce isn't going to announce who he would like to move on but the long distant commute thing is a pretty big hint as is not giving Kipre a single minute of playing time.

Explaining my view that moving on Grant might not only be possible but desirable.

1. Losing Grant (or anybody else) is never losing x goals. You would never lose all 16 goals if you put Bartley (the most ridiculous swap I can think of)  in Grant's position and give him the same goal scoring opportunities including the 5 penalties (2 of which have been missed which is roughly par) EVEN Bartley would score SOME goals. Goal scoring is a function of chances very few strikers run better than their expected goals over the course of their career Grant certainly hasn't. To put this into context Kane is one the few that has whereas Lukaku for instance hasn't.

2. The downsides of Grant are both the things that he is bad at but the positional impact he has on the team and those around him.

The biggest issue (and it is a massive one) is that he ideally plays as an inverted wide player from the left in in a 4-3-3. Even when he is not playing in that role he still drifts left. For instance he was playing CF on Saturday and guess what the bulk of his touches were in the wide left and inside left channels. This leaves a big gap where a Centre Forward should be . 
We have reached the point (or we should have) is either play him in as part of front 3 or do not play him. To put this context Bruce has said he wants to go 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 (Grant really does not fit either)

3. The economics of a sale or loan. We may be fortunate and a club might look at the goal scoring record and be prepared to pay £10m (roughly what we have outstanding to Huddersfield). Even on a break even basis that's a wage and a fee to reinvest in a player that improves us and critically fits better what Bruce wants to do next season. Even a loan would move at least a proportion of a chunky wage off the books and open up spot on the squad.

If Bruce follows up the noises he is making then Grant should be marginalised next season or if he isn't we will be still talking about why we aren't quite functioning as an attacking force.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on May 03, 2022, 05:50:51 AM
Few random thoughts:

My low expectations for the lack of real turnover revolve around Bruce being happy to build upon the "back 4 that won us promotion" which would see Bartley, Ajayi, Townsend, Furlong and O'Shea all as regulars.

If we are going to be 4 at the back in an attempt to "win 23, 24, 25 games" I'm a little disappointed that we haven't seen Gardner-Hickman as a right back for a few games. His ball progression and drives forward that we've seen from midfield and wing-back this season could be a real crucial weapon next season. Him and Townsend in the full back positions would give is plenty of ball progression from those full back areas.

I agree regards being open to moving on Grant (I'd be open to moving on every player in the squad for the right price) but do think it will be harder than suggested, I'm just not sure there's a club that would sign him in the bottom half of the PL/getting promotion from the Championship and realistically, only those clubs could afford him. Maybe a Watford might if they moved on some players but I remain unconvinced. If he stays, he needs to be as far forward as possible and not involved in the buildup that much. As Standaman points out, on the left of a front 3 really is his position but we are, currently, stocked fairly well there with Diangana and Robinson who could both play left more effectively in a 4231 or 441 variation that Grant. I would be interested to see Grant from the right of a front 3 just focused on making angled runs in behind the defence or picking it up wide, his left foot is ok so wouldn't be totally wasted when cutting in. Again, not convinced he is the best option out there for this, just trying to suggest how we might utilise him effectively. Stationing him wide right may stop him constantly drifting wide left.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: South West Steve on May 03, 2022, 09:59:59 AM
Very interesting thoughts and observations on a squad that is clearly a sum of a number of years of mismanagement at many levels.

As an aside I watched Roy Keane on Sky MNF last night choosing his all time best United team.

Love him or loathe him (and I'm aware the pool of players he was able to choose from was, in every case superior to ours) but what came over in his choices of playing colleagues was he fundamentals of "Character, willingness to learn, wanting to sweat blood for team mates, flexibility in adapting to new tactics, never wanting to be the one to let the team down, right personalities" etc etc etc.


Characteristics I personally feel are sadly lacking in some of our current squad, irrespective of the Manager or tactics employed.

PS although he didn't pick Steve Bruce in his back four he did say as a man, character and his ability to read the game and influence its he was a massive asset.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on May 03, 2022, 11:25:03 AM
Addressing a couple of points raised.

I do understand a certain amount of cynicism about the extent of the rebuild. However the basis I posted on was replacement of those that will be leaving e.g. Sawyers, Carroll, Clarke and Johnstone.

It is very obvious from Bruce's comments that there is a an intention to move some on who and how will only be revealed as the summer progresses. For obvious reasons Bruce isn't going to announce who he would like to move on but the long distant commute thing is a pretty big hint as is not giving Kipre a single minute of playing time.

Explaining my view that moving on Grant might not only be possible but desirable.

1. Losing Grant (or anybody else) is never losing x goals. You would never lose all 16 goals if you put Bartley (the most ridiculous swap I can think of)  in Grant's position and give him the same goal scoring opportunities including the 5 penalties (2 of which have been missed which is roughly par) EVEN Bartley would score SOME goals. Goal scoring is a function of chances very few strikers run better than their expected goals over the course of their career Grant certainly hasn't. To put this into context Kane is one the few that has whereas Lukaku for instance hasn't.

2. The downsides of Grant are both the things that he is bad at but the positional impact he has on the team and those around him.

The biggest issue (and it is a massive one) is that he ideally plays as an inverted wide player from the left in in a 4-3-3. Even when he is not playing in that role he still drifts left. For instance he was playing CF on Saturday and guess what the bulk of his touches were in the wide left and inside left channels. This leaves a big gap where a Centre Forward should be . 
We have reached the point (or we should have) is either play him in as part of front 3 or do not play him. To put this context Bruce has said he wants to go 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 (Grant really does not fit either)

3. The economics of a sale or loan. We may be fortunate and a club might look at the goal scoring record and be prepared to pay £10m (roughly what we have outstanding to Huddersfield). Even on a break even basis that's a wage and a fee to reinvest in a player that improves us and critically fits better what Bruce wants to do next season. Even a loan would move at least a proportion of a chunky wage off the books and open up spot on the squad.

If Bruce follows up the noises he is making then Grant should be marginalised next season or if he isn't we will be still talking about why we aren't quite functioning as an attacking force.
Re Grant and the goals his record in this division is above average for somebody that does not in an ideal world play as an out and out striker, it’s something like 35 goals in 107 games . Now I would assume he hasnt started all 107 games which improves his ratio. To replace that with no budget would be a helluva job add it alongside somebody that plays in the width of the penalty area and has a similar goal output however and you probably have the basis for a promotion team
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 03, 2022, 11:42:56 AM
What if we already have Grant's replacement?

Dike has played 50-odd minutes. You would expect him to be the main focus, and for him to score at least at Grant's level.

This way, you're using that money to find complimentary pieces of the puzzle, like an attacking mid that can create goals for the whole team, rather than worrying about goal output
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on May 03, 2022, 11:44:51 AM
What if we already have Grant's replacement?

Dike has played 50-odd minutes. You would expect him to be the main focus, and for him to score at least at Grant's level.

This way, you're using that money to find complimentary pieces of the puzzle, like an attacking mid that can create goals for the whole team, rather than worrying about goal output


Ain't Grant still got 4nyears left here though? Who is coming in for him on better terms than he's currently on is my worry
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on May 03, 2022, 11:51:19 AM
What if we already have Grant's replacement?

Dike has played 50-odd minutes. You would expect him to be the main focus, and for him to score at least at Grant's level.

This way, you're using that money to find complimentary pieces of the puzzle, like an attacking mid that can create goals for the whole team, rather than worrying about goal output

We need to add Dike's goals to Grant's not replace Grant's.

Grant and Dike I expect would get us 40 odd goals between them next season and that's what we need.

No way would I sell Grant.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 03, 2022, 12:18:44 PM
Grant does not equal x goals another player any player in his position does not equal 0 goals. Playing Grant particularly out of position equals less chances as a team which almost regardless of the number of goals Grant himself scores equals less goals.

Playing Dike and Grant together means you have less chances to score if it means not playing players like Diangana or a 10 who can pass or dribble through a deep sitting block. Playing Grant whose defensive contribution is a little underwhelming means you have to play a less progressive player behind him (either in central midfield or as a wingback /fullback)

Having Grant even in his preferred wide left channel means get shots from there but very little else if the opposition defence close the shooting opportunities down you get nothing. This has a knock on impact across the whole team even the players playing on the opposite flank who ideally play the mirror image of his game (we don't have that player now and to make Grant effective we have to go out and get one again with no money)

I can say all of this about Robinson except his all round game is better than Grant's has a less prominent goal scoring record is older and therefore even less likely to be saleable.

To even start looking effective in either of Bruce's stated preferred shapes of 4-4-2  (no absolutely no) or 4-2-3-1 (maybe) ideally Grant and Robinson move on and we trade them for something useful like a 10 or couple of central midfielders or a back up Centre Forward. 

I do have my doubts as to whether offers will be forthcoming for either but I wouldn't turn any reasonable deal down. 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on May 03, 2022, 12:21:09 PM
We need to add Dike's goals to Grant's not replace Grant's.

Grant and Dike I expect would get us 40 odd goals between them next season and that's what we need.

No way would I sell Grant.
Which is the point I was making earlier. Grant isn’t a great footballer but his goals to games ratio is good , one of the last we should be looking to sell unless the received enables us to sign a better proven goal scorer !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on May 03, 2022, 12:28:59 PM
Which is the point I was making earlier. Grant isn’t a great footballer but his goals to games ratio is good , one of the last we should be looking to sell unless the received enables us to sign a better proven goal scorer !

Exactly. Despite Standaman's protestations goals win you games.

I said before this season started we would struggle because of the lack of quality forwards we have.

Halfway through the season I pointed out we have a squad full of players that don't have a record of scoring goals.

Good teams get goals from all areas and they have a number of players that can score goals.

Grant offers nothing really other than his goals but those goals are priceless when you have a few others chipping in.

Football teams don't have to be aesthetically pleasing, they do have to get results.

It's why clubs pay large amounts of money for goalscorers they change games and results.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on May 03, 2022, 12:29:21 PM
What if we already have Grant's replacement?

Dike has played 50-odd minutes. You would expect him to be the main focus, and for him to score at least at Grant's level.

This way, you're using that money to find complimentary pieces of the puzzle, like an attacking mid that can create goals for the whole team, rather than worrying about goal output

Of all the players on the books, Grant probably has the highest asset value, most of which we still owe to Huddersfield, so we would need to get a transfer fee for him.

Stan might be right, in a transfer fee of around £8million would cover our debt to Huddersfield, but, by my calculations, he's on the books at around £12 million, so that's a write down of £4 million.

IMO, if we wrote off £4 million for Grant, we wouldn't be in a position to pay-off contracts for any more players.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 03, 2022, 01:47:36 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that goals aren't important, but it's about team goals, and team efficiency, not player goals.

Whatever is the most efficient way of scoring is the best, in my opinion, and while there are some footballers who can put a team on their shoulders and carry them, there are plenty more who thrive in a system that gets the best out of them, but also is in harmony with the rest of the team, creating chances for others too.

In my (and I think Stan's but he can talk for himself) opinion, while Grant has contributed goals to this team, he limits us both because of his limited tactical fit, and also the skills he brings other than goalscoring. Let's not forget he's played a large role in a team that has severely under-performed in front of goal.

Under Bilic, we started the season and had something like 12 different goalscorers - that's an extreme example but it goes to show that it's about team goals, not player goals, that win you matches.

Equally, as Stan has said, of you put any random player as a forward, they will get a few - goalkeepers score from corners a couple of times a season, and those represent a tiny fraction of chances.

Chances are, Grant will be here next year, but if he is going to be a starter, there's only a couple of formations we can use.

GK

O'Shea
Ajayi
Bartley
Townsend

TGH
Molumby
New Midfielder

Phillips
Dike
Grant

It's not perfect, but it works on paper.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Groovephil on May 03, 2022, 02:10:07 PM
If we start with that team next year we’ll be in the same position as we are now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on May 03, 2022, 02:20:19 PM
Problem I see with Grant is that he’s lazy when team is out of possession doesn’t press and doesn’t track back and his first touch is awful. Going forward I can’t see a position in team for him if Bruce wants to go with out and out wingers as Dike more than likely will be our main striker. Think we should get rid this summer when his resale value will be high otherwise can see him spending a lot of time on bench which won’t be great for all concerned.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 03, 2022, 02:36:16 PM
If we start with that team next year we’ll be in the same position as we are now.

Hence why I'd rather sell Grant and use the money to improve other areas, but it's easier said than done

Also, just remembering the Grant goals + Dike goals is what we need. Whilst it is about team goals, only one player can have the end shot. So if Grant is taking say 4 shots a game, if as a team we're only creating 6 shots in total, then Dike doesn't have the chances needed to score regularly.

It's not a case of it being as straightforward as Dike being good for 15 goals, and so is Grant, so if they both play we'll get 30 goals. They affect each other. In some cases (e.g. Pereira in the Championship), that means the total is greater than the sum of it's parts, or in this case, I reckon you'd end up with fewer than 30 goals
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 03, 2022, 04:17:41 PM
Blimey lads, and they say coaches and managers make a simple game complicated. I'd hate to sit in on a team meeting with some of you lot. If you get a chance, stick it in the net. Make sure they don't get any chances so they can't stick it in the net. Anyone else think I may have hit on a Steve Bruce 'I don't do tactics' team talk  ;D ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on May 03, 2022, 04:57:06 PM
Ok but can you handle the after-match interviews?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on May 03, 2022, 05:19:10 PM
Hence why I'd rather sell Grant and use the money to improve other areas, but it's easier said than done

Also, just remembering the Grant goals + Dike goals is what we need. Whilst it is about team goals, only one player can have the end shot. So if Grant is taking say 4 shots a game, if as a team we're only creating 6 shots in total, then Dike doesn't have the chances needed to score regularly.

It's not a case of it being as straightforward as Dike being good for 15 goals, and so is Grant, so if they both play we'll get 30 goals. They affect each other. In some cases (e.g. Pereira in the Championship), that means the total is greater than the sum of it's parts, or in this case, I reckon you'd end up with fewer than 30 goals

From memory we are paying for Grant over 5 years. Given that he has hardly been pulling up the trees here, how much do you realistically think we would get for him? And how much would we have to pass onto Huddersfield? Not sure we could afford a round of drinks with what would’ve left.....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on May 03, 2022, 05:24:14 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that goals aren't important, but it's about team goals, and team efficiency, not player goals.

Whatever is the most efficient way of scoring is the best, in my opinion, and while there are some footballers who can put a team on their shoulders and carry them, there are plenty more who thrive in a system that gets the best out of them, but also is in harmony with the rest of the team, creating chances for others too.

In my (and I think Stan's but he can talk for himself) opinion, while Grant has contributed goals to this team, he limits us both because of his limited tactical fit, and also the skills he brings other than goalscoring. Let's not forget he's played a large role in a team that has severely under-performed in front of goal.

This recurring theme by a number of posters that all Grant is good for is scoring goals (a skill no other player in our squad has shown any aptitude for btw, except maybe Robinson) and offers nothing else for the team is not entirely accurate or fair. It conveniently ignores the fact that he is our second best player for assists, is our best player for total shots, and is our best player for shot accuracy. We can ill afford to offload him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: The Black Pearl on May 03, 2022, 06:04:27 PM
It's glaringly obvious that our woes lie in the midfield neglected since the Pulis years, untill we address this area properly we will flounder, simple as that, judging other players untill this is addressed is ignoring the blindingly obvious.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 03, 2022, 07:23:14 PM
This recurring theme by a number of posters that all Grant is good for is scoring goals (a skill no other player in our squad has shown any aptitude for btw, except maybe Robinson) and offers nothing else for the team is not entirely accurate or fair. It conveniently ignores the fact that he is our second best player for assists, is our best player for total shots, and is our best player for shot accuracy. We can ill afford to offload him.

He doesn't even score enough goals. He has played almost every game and definitely had more minutes than any other attacker  so I'd expect him to be up there in other stats such as assists. I wouldn't be upset if he never played for us again. We need better to move forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on May 03, 2022, 07:54:12 PM
It's glaringly obvious that our woes lie in the midfield neglected since the Pulis years, untill we address this area properly we will flounder, simple as that, judging other players untill this is addressed is ignoring the blindingly obvious.

Absolutely spot on. Games are won and lost in this area and not one of our central midfielders is good enough.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on May 03, 2022, 08:53:01 PM
He doesn't even score enough goals. He has played almost every game and definitely had more minutes than any other attacker  so I'd expect him to be up there in other stats such as assists. I wouldn't be upset if he never played for us again. We need better to move forward.
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong on both counts. He is easily our best player in terms of the ratio of goals vs minutes on the pitch. And Robinson aside, he has three times more assists than his next nearest rival. I get that you don't like him as a player, but what you are saying just isn't backed up by the facts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 03, 2022, 09:45:55 PM
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong on both counts. He is easily our best player in terms of the ratio of goals vs minutes on the pitch. And Robinson aside, he has three times more assists than his next nearest rival. I get that you don't like him as a player, but what you are saying just isn't backed up by the facts.

I don't think you read what I posted properly. What did I say that was wrong? Has he played almost every game? Yes. Has he had more minutes than any other attacker? Yes. Does he score enough goals? No.

I'm not comparing him to our other players, that is futile as none of our forwards are good enough. Those are the facts.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on May 03, 2022, 10:24:20 PM
I don't think you read what I posted properly. What did I say that was wrong? Has he played almost every game? Yes. Has he had more minutes than any other attacker? Yes. Does he score enough goals? No.

I'm not comparing him to our other players, that is futile as none of our forwards are good enough. Those are the facts.
Well perhaps you should start comparing him to our other forwards. Surely that's what you should be doing if you are going to criticise him so strongly. When you compare the number of minutes he has played with the number of goals he has scored you cannot deny that he is our most effective attacker by a distance. To say otherwise is to deny the facts. Similarly with assists, which you also criticise him for. I don't know how many goals and assists you would be satisfied with, but however many it is, all our other forwards should be called out long before Grant.
You say you wouldn't be upset if he never played for us again. Do you feel the same way about Diangana, Carroll, Phillips, Robinson? What about Mowatt, Livermore, Bartley, Townsend, Molumby, Reach, Button, Furlong, Ajayi?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 03, 2022, 10:47:15 PM
Well perhaps you should start comparing him to our other forwards. Surely that's what you should be doing if you are going to criticise him so strongly. When you compare the number of minutes he has played with the number of goals he has scored you cannot deny that he is our most effective attacker by a distance. To say otherwise is to deny the facts. Similarly with assists, which you also criticise him for. I don't know how many goals and assists you would be satisfied with, but however many it is, all our other forwards should be called out long before Grant.
You say you wouldn't be upset if he never played for us again. Do you feel the same way about Diangana, Carroll, Phillips, Robinson? What about Mowatt, Livermore, Bartley, Townsend, Molumby, Reach, Button, Furlong, Ajayi?

Pretty much, yes. Don't mind one or two of the mentioned, but for the most part I certainly wouldn't shed a tear. There's better work ethics and attitudes in a few of those in that list over Grant at least. Can't give you the stats or the facts for that though, sorry
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on May 04, 2022, 12:48:21 PM
Pretty much, yes. Don't mind one or two of the mentioned, but for the most part I certainly wouldn't shed a tear. There's better work ethics and attitudes in a few of those in that list over Grant at least. Can't give you the stats or the facts for that though, sorry

I am with you pal. Grant is a poor player, even at this level. No stats will change my view on that. It is based on many years experience of playing then watching the game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on May 04, 2022, 02:29:12 PM
If Grant did not score those goals, where would we be? In **** street.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 04, 2022, 02:52:33 PM
If Grant did not score those goals, where would we be? In **** street.

Doesn't escape the fact he isn't good enough. Those defending him seem to keep missing this point.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gerry m on May 04, 2022, 03:05:50 PM
Doesn't escape the fact he isn't good enough. Those defending him seem to keep missing this point.

Yeah he is lazy that is no doubt. He scored 15 goals this season. Charlie Austin and HRK in our last stint in the Championship scored i believe 10 goals each. Please correct me if i.m wrong
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 04, 2022, 03:25:38 PM
Yeah he is lazy that is no doubt. He scored 15 goals this season. Charlie Austin and HRK in our last stint in the Championship scored i believe 10 goals each. Please correct me if i.m wrong

You're not wrong. Irrelevant facts added to the argument, but you're not wrong.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gerry m on May 04, 2022, 03:55:31 PM
You're not wrong. Irrelevant facts added to the argument, but you're not wrong.

The facts are not irrelevant if they are true!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on May 04, 2022, 04:27:10 PM
The facts are not irrelevant if they are true!

Gayle and Rodriguez scored 46 between them in all competitions the season before. Completely irrelevant but should I add it to my argument that Grant isn't good enough?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 09, 2022, 02:22:50 PM
Saturday’s 4-4-2

Button

Furlong
O'Shea
Ajayi
Clarke

Phillips
Livermore
Molumby
Reach

Diangana
Grant

Given the quality of the opposition and boxing parlance Barnsley were barely a walking punchbag it is difficult to draw too many conclusions.

There are a couple of very obvious swaps from within the current personnel. In this set up I would absolutely swap TGH for Phillips and Dike for Grant. Whether we used Diangana or Grant as the second striker is a matter of debate (I don't like either in the role). Townsend would obviously come in for Clarke.

Taking Bruce at his word that we will have six new players come the beginning of the season which is roughly 4 leavers being replaced plus two players being "moved on" my best guess would be Kipre and Zohore.

Frankly we can get to a functioning XI in any shape with 6 new players. The issue is settling on a shape and recruiting to it rather than getting in some good players with little or no notion how to use them as a unit. I suspect the issue will be squad depth in certain areas.

For instance we almost certainly will get a 10 in but unless we can fast track Richards or Castro into being adequate stand-ins we would be vulnerable to injury and suspension. If Bruce sticks to the tried and tested we end up with an experienced round peg in a square hole and pretty quickly the team structure breaks down, which is where we have been for the last 2 seasons.

Personally I think the 6 should be

A number 10
A number 6 to in effect replace Livermore
A backup 9 to rotate with Dike.
An attacking midfielder that can play wide right or through the middle
A right back to replace Furlong
A left footed wide player.

My biggest problem is that the current Senior Pro’s aren’t going to move on; they will become the squad depth for next season. This will again stunt the development of our academy graduates (yes I know they could go out on loan but that route has failed us by and large it is very obvious we need to push them to be part of the first team squad and use the loan market sparingly)

Personally I would much prefer Bruce go down the route of 4-3-3 but he seems to be nailing his colours to the mast of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. I would prefer the latter but with 6 new players it can be anything Bruce wants there are no excuses here once this summer is done the squad will look like it does because he wants it to be that way.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 17, 2022, 02:25:28 PM
Long article from Steve Madeley on our transfer plans for the summer.

https://theathletic.com/3306034/2022/05/17/west-brom-transfer-window-analysis/


“We haven’t got a lot of pace, we haven’t got a lot of power, we haven’t got a lot of flair.”


This was a senior figure at West Bromwich Albion towards the end of a season that has, mercifully, come to an end.
As briefs for summer recruitment drives go, it was worryingly broad. But it was not surprising. Steve Bruce has a mammoth task on his hands to turn a vaguely talented but one-dimensional West Brom squad into a multi-faceted group equipped for the unique challenges of the Championship.

He is aiming, he says, for “five or six” changes to his squad. In truth, both Bruce and the Albion fanbase would love to see more. But it is equally true that achieving that number will be easier said than done given the contractual situations of most of the current Hawthorns squad.

Bruce and his staff seem confident that it can be achieved, however — presumably based on conversations with the recently appointed chief executive Ron Gourlay about the financial realities of a club still dealing with the consequences of COVID-19 and entering its final season of Premier League parachute payments.

“Five or six” changes would allow Bruce to carry out the significant refresh that he is targeting, but he would need to prioritise which areas of the team he is most keen to strengthen.
There seems little doubt that reshaping his midfield will be firmly at the top of his list, adding those absent qualities of pace, power and flair.

Overall, Bruce has been happy with the performance of his defenders and is likely to seek only minor changes at the back.
Cedric Kipre, who has only ever been an unused substitute in Bruce’s three months in charge, is clearly surplus to requirements and, while he has two years remaining on his contract, is almost certain to be made available for transfer — most likely on loan. And Matt Clarke has returned to Brighton at the end of a solid season-long loan. He could be pursued as a permanent target but that is far from certain.

Their departures would reduce the size of Bruce’s senior centre-back pool from an unwieldy six to a more manageable four for a manager who has declared his intention to play with just two in most games next season. One of those starters is likely to be Semi Ajayi, who signed a new three-year deal with Albion on Tuesday. He started all of Albion’s Championship fixtures bar one since Bruce’s arrival in February.

He would like to add a new face at the heart of his defence with leadership and organisation qualities as well as the physicality to dominate in the Championship. Darragh Lenihan — the Irishman out of contract at Blackburn — is among those on the list, but another defender would need to make way for there to be room in the squad.

Kyle Bartley was left out several times at the end of the season and, at the age of 30 and with four years at The Hawthorns under his belt, would be the obvious man to move out to help refresh the squad, but he is among the higher earners and has a year remaining on his contract.

Daryl Dike is expected to be fit to spearhead Bruce’s front line and the manager would welcome a player to complement the American. Kenneth Zohore remains under contract for a further year, but Bruce is too experienced to hang his hat on a player who has failed to shine under any of his three immediate predecessors. And Karlan Grant’s Championship goalscoring record is impressive, but most of his success has come from starting wide on the left.

Yet while those departments need some tinkering, the midfield needs a major overhaul and Bruce has already identified free agents who he believes could make a difference.

West Brom are firmly in the running for John Swift, one of the division’s most proven creators, despite Reading’s continued efforts at persuading him to extend his six-year stay in Berkshire when his current contract expires this summer.

Millwall’s Jed Wallace is another out-of-contract player near the top of Bruce’s wanted list, although clubs in Turkey, as well as others in the Championship, will provide stiff competition. The 28-year-old former Wolves player can play in a central role but is arguably most adept out wide, where Bruce also wants to strengthen.
Derby’s Tom Lawrence and Blackburn’s Joe Rothwell are also Championship free agents next month that Bruce will be aware of, but Wallace and Swift are thought to be higher on Albion’s list.

If Bruce can land two or three players as free agents for the start of pre-season training at the end of June, he will regard it as a positive start. Then Albion will move on to the Premier League loans market, targeting talented youngsters from the top division’s biggest clubs to add some freshness to the attack.

Bruce hopes that by the time the transfer window shuts the dynamics of his squad will be changed beyond recognition.
There are no guarantees that next season will be any more successful, but if Bruce gets his way it will at least be very different.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 17, 2022, 04:50:42 PM
Breaking the Madeley article down

Defence

1 It's a back 4
2 Clarke unlikely to return.
3 Interest in Lenihan but can't proceed without unloading at least one Centre Back probably Kipre exiting but Bartley also potentially let go.
4 No mention of full backs.

Bit to unpack there.

In the context of a back 4 and very obviously Ajayi being a starter we are overloaded with Centre Backs.

Much as I like Matt Clarke it shouldn't be any surprise that he isn't returning but the interest in Lenihan is perplexing. Plainly if we bring him in the plan is to play him and that can only be done at the expense of O'Shea. I am not keen on that idea one little bit. However if O'Shea won't sign a new deal that would change everything or and I hope I am wrong here Bruce is thinking of playing him at Right Back.

Speaking of full backs here there is no mention of potential upgrades. Furlong and Townsend are okay at full backs maybe  better suited to that role than wing back. I would hope we promote Ingram and Ashworth to the 1st team squad as first rotation. In addition we have emergency back up options in Reach and O'Shea.

This is very much a wait and see what happens but there are two triggers O'Shea signing or rejecting a new deal and  Lenihan's availability
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionfan1983 on May 17, 2022, 04:56:44 PM
There isn't going to be a rebuild, We has fans have been doped into this by Gourlay/Bruce. A few fringe players will perhaps leave (Bryan/Kipre) But don't expect anything that major as we don't have any sellable assets

Button offered a new contract, Palmer a longer contract, Ajayi (Who hasn't been that good) gets a payrise and a longer contract

And Albion fans are excited that this is happening. Bruce gets an easy ride in the media and will do locally as well. Steve Madeley has begun this by saying that Ismael was a massive mistake but will not critic Bruce who took Albion out the play offs, Also some of the fans didn't and blamed the players but it was Ismael's fault not the players when he was in charge.

Nothing will change, People will keep going to the Hawthorns (Despite the football and the players being poor). Bruce/Gourlay are laughing both will have safe jobs by pretending there is a rebuild and they will mention a process in the coming weeks.

Big players will get bigger contracts and its happened already and you all delighted and i dont know why


 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on May 17, 2022, 05:40:35 PM
The only thing Bruce will deliver is Christmas card to his mate.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 17, 2022, 11:07:31 PM
Continuing pulling the implications from the Madeley article

Midfield

1. Seen as the area that is most in need of work
2. Swift and Wallace both targets

If we land both Wallace and Swift that will be a major step forward. Swift obviously fills the 10 role in a 4-2-3-1 or possibly a 4-3-3 and Wallace potentially wide right in either but Wallace can also provide cover in the 10 role.

Tactically both signings fit what we know of Bruce's intentions. Swift just fills a very obvious gap and as such there are no knock on impacts elsewhere.

Wallace on the other hand is a very different proposition. Generally played wide right in a traditional winger role he will be a direct replacement for Phillips (no problem with that) however as one of the positions that TGH might fill that is less helpful.

There is nothing in the article about Central Mids but it does largely focus on the free agent market so unless there are options that we are actively looking at in that market that is no real surprise

Forwards

1. Lots of bodies but not necessarily the right ones
2. Dike is first choice
3. Effort to talk up Zohore
4. Potential for signing additional cover

A lot revolves around the tactical decisions that Bruce makes here. The reality is Dike is the Centre Forward everyone either works with him or is cover for him. In a 4-2-3-1 Dike is the lone Forward and the only like for like cover is Zohore. While there is an effort to get Zohore fit and talk up his prospects both of which are necessary even if the intention is to move him on, if we don't I think Zohore is at best 3rd choice CF.

Where the rest of the forwards fit into a 4-2-3-1 is anyone's guess but Bruce has played a 4-3-3 on occasions. I could see a front 3 of Grant Dike and Wallace having some merit depending on the structure of the team behind them.

Summary

It is not the summer that fans want (something akin to the final scenes of the Godfather) but that is just simply not practical. The direction of travel is bolting together something to have a tilt at promotion next season with very little thought beyond that.

Tactically the key decision has been made it's a back 4. We are interested in players that bring something we need and depending on other decisions might even make a coherent unit.





Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 18, 2022, 08:38:20 AM
I'm relieved that at least it looks as though the attacking end of midfield is being prioritised. I won't pretend to have watched Swift or Wallace that much but they seem good bets to improve our creativity and goal scoring potential from midfield. I'm still interested in this distinction between a number 10 and an attacking midfielder...it can be a fine line at times. I classed Pereira as a very talented No 10 but not an AM as he wasn't enough of a genuine midfielder to be classed as an AM. I want an AM brought in first and hopefully a 10 also. Some flexibility is useful. I'm thinking that Swift is maybe more an AM than a 10 ?

For clarification I class the Morrison type of player as an AM so someone able to break and create from advanced positions in midfield but also comfortable enough in the midfield role to be able to drop into CM when the team needs it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 18, 2022, 09:00:59 AM
I'm relieved that at least it looks as though the attacking end of midfield is being prioritised. I won't pretend to have watched Swift or Wallace that much but they seem good bets to improve our creativity and goal scoring potential from midfield. I'm still interested in this distinction between a number 10 and an attacking midfielder...it can be a fine line at times. I classed Pereira as a very talented No 10 but not an AM as he wasn't enough of a genuine midfielder to be classed as an AM. I want an AM brought in first and hopefully a 10 also. Some flexibility is useful. I'm thinking that Swift is maybe more an AM than a 10 ?

For clarification I class the Morrison type of player as an AM so someone able to break and create from advanced positions in midfield but also comfortable enough in the midfield role to be able to drop into CM when the team needs it.

For me, a 10 predominantly plays between the lines of midfield and defence, while an attacking midfielder is just a useful description for players who are better going forward than defensively. A 10 would be in a 4-2-3-1, whereas you might have a "free 8" (as it's known nowadays) in a 4-3-3.

Ultimately, like formations, what matters is not the name but the spaces players occupy and how they fit together. Man City played a 4-3-3 a few weeks back but it was a 2-3-5 in attack and a 4-4-2 in defence.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 18, 2022, 10:35:13 AM
In terms of designation I tend to use 6,8, and 10 as very broad concepts which describes where the player plays in a 3 man central midfield 6 being the deepest sitting 8 in the middle and 10 the most advanced. The attributes they need vary depending on the style of play and formation around them. In this regard I would describe both Morrison and Pereira as 10's very different players but occupying the same space on the pitch.

Returning to Wallace and Swift both can play in the 10 role but bring slightly different skill sets to it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on May 18, 2022, 12:24:31 PM
In all of Stans analysis, i am struggling to see where Diangana fits, I can see Robinson being used as cover across the forward line, but Grady hardly fits that role IMO.

What would we get for Grady nowadays?  £3-4m ??? largely based upon potential not performance!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 18, 2022, 12:37:55 PM
For me, a 10 predominantly plays between the lines of midfield and defence, while an attacking midfielder is just a useful description for players who are better going forward than defensively. A 10 would be in a 4-2-3-1, whereas you might have a "free 8" (as it's known nowadays) in a 4-3-3.

Ultimately, like formations, what matters is not the name but the spaces players occupy and how they fit together. Man City played a 4-3-3 a few weeks back but it was a 2-3-5 in attack and a 4-4-2 in defence.

If I'm reading your opening line correctly then I have to say you have a very novel, dare I say unique take on the role of a number ten  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 18, 2022, 12:44:04 PM
If I'm reading your opening line correctly then I have to say you have a very novel, dare I say unique take on the role of a number ten  ;D .

Plays between the lines of the opposition's midfield and defence  :P
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on May 18, 2022, 12:47:33 PM
If I'm reading your opening line correctly then I have to say you have a very novel, dare I say unique take on the role of a number ten  ;D .

I agree with you. It has always been a much more advanced role than that described.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 18, 2022, 12:55:36 PM
Plays between the lines of the opposition's midfield and defence  :P

As ever, context is key. As is including all the words necessary when describing something. I was thinking 'wtf is he on about?' but was too polite to actually post it  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 18, 2022, 12:58:09 PM
As ever the choice remains, we have 3 players who want to play wide left Robinson, Grant and Diangana, we can only play one of them. Grady is the only traditional left winger i.e. left footed if that is the way Bruce wants  go then he should play him in a 4-2-3-1. If he chooses that route he should therefore sell Grant and or Robinson if they are indeed saleable.

There isn't a market for Grady his wages are too much for most Championship clubs and after two years of stagnation he is now a 24 year old who had promise who hasn't trained on. That might sound harsh but that's the reality nobody is calling who would even match his salary yet alone pay us a fee. There might be a footballing outpost where they would offer him a nice a tax free wage and the club a bit of a fee but other than that I can't see a home for him.

We can repeat this conversation as frequently as you like while all 3 remain at the club.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 18, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
As ever, context is key. As is including all the words necessary when describing something. I was thinking 'wtf is he on about?' but was too polite to actually post it  ;D .

I thought it was pretty obvious from the context, but clearly not! My apologies, I will try to be more eloquent in future  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on May 18, 2022, 02:51:33 PM
Breaking the Madeley article down

Defence

1 It's a back 4
2 Clarke unlikely to return.
3 Interest in Lenihan but can't proceed without unloading at least one Centre Back probably Kipre exiting but Bartley also potentially let go.
4 No mention of full backs.

Bit to unpack there.

In the context of a back 4 and very obviously Ajayi being a starter we are overloaded with Centre Backs.

Much as I like Matt Clarke it shouldn't be any surprise that he isn't returning but the interest in Lenihan is perplexing. Plainly if we bring him in the plan is to play him and that can only be done at the expense of O'Shea. I am not keen on that idea one little bit. However if O'Shea won't sign a new deal that would change everything or and I hope I am wrong here Bruce is thinking of playing him at Right Back.

Speaking of full backs here there is no mention of potential upgrades. Furlong and Townsend are okay at full backs maybe  better suited to that role than wing back. I would hope we promote Ingram and Ashworth to the 1st team squad as first rotation. In addition we have emergency back up options in Reach and O'Shea.

This is very much a wait and see what happens but there are two triggers O'Shea signing or rejecting a new deal and  Lenihan's availability

I'd hope we would keep Kean Bryan or at least replace him with another left footed centre back as we are unlikely to sign Clarke. Signing Lenihan will just give us another right footed centre half.
I'd like us to move on both Kipre and Bartley and potentially Furlong.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 18, 2022, 03:13:45 PM
I'd hope we would keep Kean Bryan or at least replace him with another left footed centre back as we are unlikely to sign Clarke. Signing Lenihan will just give us another right footed centre half.
I'd like us to move on both Kipre and Bartley and potentially Furlong.

The little I saw Bryan was encouraging. It rather depends on where he is with his recovery. I suspect until he gets some game time then he won't be going anywhere by default. Can we run with O'Shea ,Ajayi, Bryan and Taylor?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on May 18, 2022, 03:22:37 PM
Kean Bryan has played 19 league games in four years and is coming back after a serious injury. Far too many questions about not only his ability but his ability to stay fit to run with with him as one of 4, especially when Taylor is also an unknown.

O'Shea and Ajayi will be ok as the two centre backs I suppose, particularly if we can control more of the ball further up the pitch. In an ideal world I'd move Bartley, Kipre and Bryan on and sign a centre back if we are going with 4 though, but we should have other priorities.



 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on May 19, 2022, 06:39:33 AM
Can we run with O'Shea ,Ajayi, Bryan and Taylor?

I think it's important that Taylor gets a full season in men's football so I'd loan him out.I think we can run with 3cbs with Bryan to come back and then Furlong and Livermore also capable of slotting in if desperate, this is of course presumes we play a back 4 as stated.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 19, 2022, 07:32:35 AM
I think it's important that Taylor gets a full season in men's football so I'd loan him out.I think we can run with 3cbs with Bryan to come back and then Furlong and Livermore also capable of slotting in if desperate, this is of course presumes we play a back 4 as stated.
I don't think 3 cbs to cover 2 places is enough. 4 is the bare minimum. Furlong and Livermore are no strangers to red and yellow cards also.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on May 19, 2022, 08:47:31 PM
I just think it is very important for Taylor's development that he gets some time out playing first team football and I wouldn't be making a signing, u less perhaps it was an inexpensive loan, to be 4th choice. Bryan could be 4th choice with Furlong and Livermore being additional options if necessary.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on May 22, 2022, 03:05:14 AM
Johnstone caroll and sawyers gone. Kipre sounds like his off...Can we get shot of bartley and Phillips then that would give us some room for a rebuild. I would listen to offers for;

Furlong, Phillips, Livermore, mowatt, reach, bartley, grant, Robinson, diangana, bryan.

A few more out the door and we might be able to actually back the manager...

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBArgo on May 22, 2022, 08:01:19 AM
Johnstone caroll and sawyers gone. Kipre sounds like his off...Can we get shot of bartley and Phillips then that would give us some room for a rebuild. I would listen to offers for;

Furlong, Phillips, Livermore, mowatt, reach, bartley, grant, Robinson, diangana, bryan.

A few more out the door and we might be able to actually back the manager...

There's talk of Bartley going too who I actually think has been be a good player for us. However, I think the others you've mentioned will remain. Bruce seems keen on the likes of Livermore and Reach, whilst many of the others will struggle to get offers worth while. For instance, Diangana won't get the same money elsewhere and Bryan has spent his entire career as a reserve, so I doubt they'll go. Perhaps Mowatt could leave in January on loan if he continued to go down the pecking order.

I think Furlong is probably our worst regular, yet Bruce seems to like him. My main concern is that although we get rid of dead wood, we replace it with dead wood on cheaper wages and don't reinvest the money. For instance, let's imagine Sawyers was on £20k p/w whereas Reach was on £10k p/w - neither are particularly better than the other but Reach is cheaper. Effectively, we'd be swapping like for like which doesn't imrpove the team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on May 24, 2022, 01:26:50 PM
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/albion-announce-202122-retained-and-released-lists

West Bromwich Albion can confirm their retained and released lists following the conclusion of the 2021/22 campaign.

The Baggies have offered new contracts to Premier League Cup-winning goalkeeper Ted Cann, and Under-18 players Josh Shaw, Samuel Okoka, Reece Hall and Reyes Cleary.

Three senior players will be leaving The Hawthorns this summer.

Goalkeeper Sam Johnstone will depart having spent four years at the club, making 167 appearances since his arrival in July 2018.

Midfielder Romaine Sawyers, who spent the 2021/22 season on loan at Stoke City, is leaving Albion. Sawyers made 64 appearances for the Baggies, scoring one goal against Cardiff City in October 2019.

Striker Andy Carroll will also depart. The 33-year-old arrived in January and went on to make 15 appearances for Albion, scoring three goals.

Youngsters Jamie Soule, Owen Windsor, Aurio Teixeira, Kevin Joshua, Zak Delaney, Mark Chidi, MacKenzie Lamb, Leon MacHisa and Daniel Ngoma are also set to leave the Baggies.

The club would like to thank all departing players for their efforts during their time at The Hawthorns and we wish them every success in the future.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 24, 2022, 02:32:32 PM
No great surprises among the released list. On the one hand it is disappointing to lose Cleary but  if there  is  a £20k a week contract on offer elsewhere he would be foolish not to take it. The kids on that list are facing very uncertain futures Cleary has to know that could have been him and it may be him in the future. In that situation cash in the bank is king, sorry that's just the way it is.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 24, 2022, 02:56:33 PM
Genuinely hope they all go on to be successful at whatever they end up doing, be that within the game or in some other profession. Had a lot of time for Aurio Teixeira and I wish them all every success. Except for if they end up at the Vile of course.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on May 24, 2022, 03:08:34 PM
Genuinely hope they all go on to be successful at whatever they end up doing, be that within the game or in some other profession. Had a lot of time for Aurio Teixeira and I wish them all every success. Except for if they end up at the Vile of course.
Me too mate, gutsy, wholehearted, tough little guy, and I think it's the "little" bit, that has undone him.
I shall watch his progress elsewhere, shame his future is no longer with us.
Good luck Aurio.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dan on May 24, 2022, 03:12:34 PM
Quite curious Teixeira is going despite being a first team starter at premier league 2 level last season. Only player from that released list who met that criteria.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 24, 2022, 03:19:02 PM
Quite curious Teixeira is going despite being a first team starter at premier league 2 level last season. Only player from that released list who met that criteria.

He was close to being released last summer but for a late change of heart.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Gilsey 56 on May 24, 2022, 05:30:01 PM
So much for the big clear out, two of the best players last year gone, one player who wasn't here and a load of youth players, It's aa revolution.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on May 24, 2022, 05:34:10 PM
So much for the big clear out, two of the best players last year gone, one player who wasn't here and a load of youth players, It's aa revolution.
These are only players who are out of contract. You can’t release players that have time left on their contracts .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Gilsey 56 on May 26, 2022, 08:59:59 PM
These are only players who are out of contract. You can’t release players that have time left on their contracts .
Your right , of course, Just disappointed we can't get rid of the lot. pleased with Swift though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on May 26, 2022, 09:20:04 PM
              Button or palmer
Furlong oshea ajayi Townsend
              TGH  Molumby
    Robinson Swift Diangana
                   Dike

I would like that based on what we have. Obviously if we could upgrade in the right back and right wing department and possibly in cm we could be in business. Obviously i expect to see Livermore in and around the team sadly
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Smethwickender93 on May 26, 2022, 09:25:14 PM
              Button or palmer
Furlong oshea ajayi Townsend
              TGH  Molumby
    Robinson Swift Diangana
                   Dike

I would like that based on what we have. Obviously if we could upgrade in the right back and right wing department and possibly in cm we could be in business. Obviously i expect to see Livermore in and around the team sadly



         Button or palmer
Furlong Lenihan Ajayi Townsend
              TGH  Molumby
    Wallace Swift Diangana
                   Dike

Couple more additions and that's not looking a bad side. Even with Mowatt I feel we are yet to see the best of him
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 26, 2022, 11:49:58 PM
Swift is a 10 which gives us a functioning 3 man midfield in either a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3. Given that we are pursuing Wallace it looks very much like a front 4 of

Wallace Swift Diangana
             Dike

That is very attacking nobody in the 3 behind Dike is particularly noted for their defensive prowess.  Bruce will be looking for very solid defensive options behind. I suspect if he gets Lenihan, O'Shea will be shunted out to right back. The double pivot will be a double 6 and I am not sure that Gardner-Hickman and Molumby will be quite what he wants there, Mowatt certainly isn't. 

No starting place for Grant and Robinson which is interesting.

There is still a long road to travel but every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 27, 2022, 07:30:46 AM
I'm back to the type of 10 Swift is going to be. I don't know him well enough but I hope he's no stranger to being able to muck in with the midfield battle a bit when needed, while still being the advanced creative link between midfield and attack - yes in the style of James Morrison.
I'd be a bit concerned about our balance in midfield if he turned out to be reluctant to or not good at digging in now and then.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on May 27, 2022, 10:06:48 AM
I'm back to the type of 10 Swift is going to be. I don't know him well enough but I hope he's no stranger to being able to muck in with the midfield battle a bit when needed, while still being the advanced creative link between midfield and attack - yes in the style of James Morrison.
I'd be a bit concerned about our balance in midfield if he turned out to be reluctant to or not good at digging in now and then.

Everyone needs to be able to dig in in the modern game so let's hope he can tackle better than Robbo and Diangana  AND our physios can keep him fit.   In the absence of a left-sided CB,  I would start with:

                             Button

              Ajayi       Livermore      O'Shea

Furlong      TGH     Molumby      Mowatt     Townsend

                              Swift

                   Dike                    [Grant | Robbo | Diangana]


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on May 27, 2022, 10:10:27 AM
If we consider Dike is practically a new player (providing he can get fit), then we already start next season with personnel answers to two big issues we had last season which is reassuring. I just hope Bruce is capable of shaping the system and tactics

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dan on May 27, 2022, 11:17:47 AM
Everyone needs to be able to dig in in the modern game so let's hope he can tackle better than Robbo and Diangana  AND our physios can keep him fit.   In the absence of a left-sided CB,  I would start with:

                             Button

              Ajayi       Livermore      O'Shea

Furlong      TGH     Molumby      Mowatt     Townsend

                              Swift

                   Dike                    [Grant | Robbo | Diangana]

That team has 12 players.

And any team with wing backs that uses Furlong/Towsend for those roles is doomed to fail. You play wing backs, you need them to contribute goals and assists. Townsend/Furlong managed 0 goals and 5 assists last season between them - which based on their history is not like they underperformed...... Huddersfield play wing backs and have Sorbe Thomas with 12 assists and 3 goals, and Toffolo who 6 goals and 8 assists. 9 goals and 20 assists between them.

 One of our main issues last year was the system Ismael commited himself to had so few players with any ability to create or score - a good deal of which was his reliance on that wing back pair.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 27, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Bruce has publicly committed to a back 4 so we are no longer have wing backs which is fine because Bruce's use of a back 3 is wholly defensive in reality it's a back 5
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on May 27, 2022, 02:36:34 PM
Getting Swift in is a good first step to make us more potent going forward. Wallace , or a similar player who can carry the ball forward would be an important second step. As a defensive midfielder I would favour Mowatt, and there needs to be room for TGH.
My starting eleven would be:
                                       Button
            Furlong      OShea           Ajayi         Townsend                                         

                                      Mowatt   
               TGH                                    Swift

        Robinson/Phillips        Dike             Wallace/Dianga   




Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 27, 2022, 04:36:01 PM
Everyone needs to be able to dig in in the modern game so let's hope he can tackle better than Robbo and Diangana  AND our physios can keep him fit.   In the absence of a left-sided CB,  I would start with:

                             Button

              Ajayi       Livermore      O'Shea

Furlong      TGH     Molumby      Mowatt     Townsend

                              Swift

                   Dike                    [Grant | Robbo | Diangana]
That's a very general statement though. Leaving aside Pereira's undoubted attacking ability playing him as a 10 basically left us with a 2 man midfield in terms of the midfield graft area. I'm hoping that Swift can give us a bit more in the midfield graft area than Pereira while remaining the attacking linkman.  I think that's important for team balance.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on May 27, 2022, 05:38:30 PM
Periera used to press and harrass and won the ball numerous times. If you get that out of your number 10 thats all you can ask
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 27, 2022, 06:29:02 PM
Periera used to press and harrass and won the ball numerous times. If you get that out of your number 10 thats all you can ask
It's my old chestnut about No 10s and attacking midfielders. Pereira often got shifted out to wide positions by Bilic because we were light and often overrun in midfield with him as a 10. If Morrison was a 10 then I hope Swift is more along the lines of a Morrison than a Pereira (I'm talking purely about the balance of their attacking and midfield qualities).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 28, 2022, 07:28:04 AM
Periera used to press and harrass and won the ball numerous times. If you get that out of your number 10 thats all you can ask

Correct. I find it quite depressing when people don't acknowledge this side of his game. Worked so much harder off the ball than given credit for.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 28, 2022, 07:50:42 AM
Correct. I find it quite depressing when people don't acknowledge this side of his game. Worked so much harder off the ball than given credit for.
I'm not saying he did nothing off the ball, but he didn't supplement the midfield in the way that a James Morrison would. Bilic did frequently shift Pereira out wide almost certainly to get more presence in midfield. It was pretty obvious that we were often overrun and outnumbered in midfield pretty frequently whether it was the promotion year (let's not forget we limped over the line and were average at best 2nd half of the season) or the premier league year. I just hope Swift is more Morrison in style of player - anyway I've made the point enough for now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 28, 2022, 08:16:58 AM
I'm not saying he did nothing off the ball, but he didn't supplement the midfield in the way that a James Morrison would. Bilic did frequently shift Pereira out wide almost certainly to get more presence in midfield. It was pretty obvious that we were often overrun and outnumbered in midfield pretty frequently whether it was the promotion year (let's not forget we limped over the line and were average at best 2nd half of the season) or the premier league year. I just hope Swift is more Morrison in style of player - anyway I've made the point enough for now.

It was a general point and not aimed at you specifically. Calm yourself and have a grape. While you hope Swift is more of a Morrison type player and wish to leave things there what have you seen from Mowatt's time with us to convince you he's suited to a defensive midfield role?

Edit: correction, it was Alex1 re Mowatt.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on May 28, 2022, 08:56:39 AM
It was a general point and not aimed at you specifically. Calm yourself and have a grape. While you hope Swift is more of a Morrison type player and wish to leave things there what have you seen from Mowatt's time with us to convince you he's suited to a defensive midfield role?
I am calm thanks. I haven't said anything about Mowatt being in the defensive  midfield role but he's likely to be on the left of the two playing behind Swift and I see it more as 2 CMs rather than DMs - terminology again. I'm hoping that the groin operation and summer recovery will see Mowatt back to the player we first saw. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 28, 2022, 08:59:03 AM
I am calm thanks. I haven't said anything about Mowatt being in the defensive  midfield role but he's likely to be on the left of the two playing behind Swift and I see it more as 2 CMs rather than DMs - terminology again. I'm hoping that the groin operation and summer recovery will see Mowatt back to the player we first saw.

Just as well I got my edit in before you replied then really, as you were typing in fact ;D  :-*  ;) .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 28, 2022, 09:45:37 AM
I don't think you get a lot from John Swift off the ball and that does not matter one bit in the 10 role unless we are going to be high pressing team. Steve Bruce is our manager so that isn't going to be the case. Out of possession we will form into a block and how deep that block is will depend on how progressive or otherwise the opposition is.

The bulk of the defensive work in the Central Midfield will fall on the double pivot behind the 10. In the 3 behind the CF it is far more important that wide players interrupt the ball progression in the wide channels from the opposition full backs. Generally Championship teams aren't playing out centrally so I wouldn't expect lots of duals in the areas where the 10 will be operating. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on May 29, 2022, 09:39:59 AM
I sense a frustrating season ahead for TGH should we land Wallace or another. One thing i could also see happening is Adam Reach rather than Diangana on the left side of the midfield 3, and boy do I not want that. This is a make or break season for Diangana and TGH. I can see it going this way...

Wallace/Another      Swift       Reach
                             
                              Dike

Or

            DM         DM

                 Swift

Wallace      Dike     Grant

I don't see many line ups where Bruce has TGH, Diangana, Swift, Wallace/other all starting.

As the two DMs/CM's 8's/6's whatever they are I wouldn't mind seeing 2 from TGH, Mowatt & Molumby but this all seems a bit much for Brucie, he may have a panic attack so I think whatever happens he will balance the marauding and excitement of Swift, Wallace and Dike with Reach & Livermore. I'm not too fussed with Livermore being in with all that in front of him but I would be against him blocking pathways of others.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on May 29, 2022, 01:46:26 PM
I sense a frustrating season ahead for TGH should we land Wallace or another. One thing i could also see happening is Adam Reach rather than Diangana on the left side of the midfield 3, and boy do I not want that. This is a make or break season for Diangana and TGH. I can see it going this way...

Wallace/Another      Swift       Reach
                             
                              Dike

Or

            DM         DM

                 Swift

Wallace      Dike     Grant

I don't see many line ups where Bruce has TGH, Diangana, Swift, Wallace/other all starting.

As the two DMs/CM's 8's/6's whatever they are I wouldn't mind seeing 2 from TGH, Mowatt & Molumby but this all seems a bit much for Brucie, he may have a panic attack so I think whatever happens he will balance the marauding and excitement of Swift, Wallace and Dike with Reach & Livermore. I'm not too fussed with Livermore being in with all that in front of him but I would be against him blocking pathways of others.
I hope you're wrong about that, but I fear you may be right. You just got the sense last season that Bruce wasn't massively keen on him, despite him getting a fair amount of game time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on May 29, 2022, 10:56:11 PM
There must be a place in the team for Diang.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on May 30, 2022, 09:54:31 AM
I only watched the second semi-final and the play-ff final but to my mind, both Sheffield Utd and Huddersfield had a more structured team-based style than NFFC.  Both managed to get at least 2 and most times 3 players round an opponent in possession.  Then only very good players can play a good pass and most must resort to hoofing it.  Both teams counter very quickly after pouncing on a mistake.  I think both would have a better chance of survival as they would get points out of the teams not in the top seven.   

What's more concerning is that I suspect Carlos Corberan and Heckinbottom will tactically run rings around dear old SB and Son Ltd (very Ltd) 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 31, 2022, 12:09:59 PM
The puzzle with regards to shape is largely complete as soon as we signed Swift a player who is a 10. He will play as the most advanced of a midfield 3 (never ever as a part of a 2).

Bruce has said he will go to a back 4 but Swift pretty much rules out 4-4-2 unless we push him forward as the support striker a role he has ever performed in his career. 

Therefore we are left with a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1. Signing Wallace tends to suggest a 4-2-3-1 but it doesn't rule out a lopsided front 3. Think we will get some pretty big clues in pre season.

While the shape is pretty much done, the personnel within it aren't in place at least 4 of them aren't in the building yet.

At this point my concerns are

1. We haven't seen the last of O'Shea at right back
2. TGH does not have an obvious spot in the team (from Bruce's perspective not mine) but I suspect he will be 2nd choice across a number of positions

I suspect the next brick in this wall is whether or not we land Wallace.   

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on May 31, 2022, 12:20:12 PM
The puzzle with regards to shape is largely complete as soon as we signed Swift a player who is a 10. He will play as the most advanced of a midfield 3 (never ever as a part of a 2).

Bruce has said he will go to a back 4 but Swift pretty much rules out 4-4-2 unless we push him forward as the support striker a role he has ever performed in his career. 

Therefore we are left with a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1. Signing Wallace tends to suggest a 4-2-3-1 but it doesn't rule out a lopsided front 3. Think we will get some pretty big clues in pre season.

While the shape is pretty much done, the personnel within it aren't in place at least 4 of them aren't in the building yet.

At this point my concerns are

1. We haven't seen the last of O'Shea at right back
2. TGH does not have an obvious spot in the team (from Bruce's perspective not mine) but I suspect he will be 2nd choice across a number of positions

I suspect the next brick in this wall is whether or not we land Wallace.

I'd agree with most of that although we could go 4312 or a 442 diamond. Both could accommodate Swift quite comfortably.

TGH's biggest problem is he has no fixed position and as you rightfully say (IMO) he could find himself filling in when necessary.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on May 31, 2022, 01:13:38 PM
I'd agree with most of that although we could go 4312 or a 442 diamond. Both could accommodate Swift quite comfortably.

TGH's biggest problem is he has no fixed position and as you rightfully say (IMO) he could find himself filling in when necessary.

I think Bruce has always eyed him at right back and has done since he first arrived.  I guess the issue of TGH in midfield became a more prominent issue given how poor our midfield has been it was frankly impossible for TGH not to improve it.

If the central midfield axis is improved and with the addition of Swift as the attacking midfielder, I guess that pushes TGH back to the right back role.

Again, where that leaves O'Shea who approaches the end of the contract will be interesting..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on May 31, 2022, 01:49:45 PM
I'd agree with most of that although we could go 4312 or a 442 diamond. Both could accommodate Swift quite comfortably.

TGH's biggest problem is he has no fixed position and as you rightfully say (IMO) he could find himself filling in when necessary.

I kind of disregarded anything I don't think Bruce will adopt. The common theme of his teams is there is very nearly always a  double pivot at the base of midfield. If the destination was a diamond midfield then the wide players have to come inside doubly so if the point of the diamond is Swift.  Adam Reach on the left could work but you go and find someone other than Jed Wallace for the right midfield position, maybe TGH.

However as we are definitely in for Wallace I have to assume that is not the plan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on May 31, 2022, 02:11:33 PM
I kind of disregarded anything I don't think Bruce will adopt. The common theme of his teams is there is very nearly always a  double pivot at the base of midfield. If the destination was a diamond midfield then the wide players have to come inside doubly so if the point of the diamond is Swift.  Adam Reach on the left could work but you go and find someone other than Jed Wallace for the right midfield position, maybe TGH.

However as we are definitely in for Wallace I have to assume that is not the plan.

A 4-3-1-2 could work with TGH as the shuttler on the right, and someone like Mowatt on the left, with Molomby in a 6 role.

The problem is it then puts a lot of emphasis on our full backs to provide width, and I don't think that's something Bruce will do, nor is it a good idea based on the effectiveness of our wing backs this season
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on May 31, 2022, 02:39:48 PM
I think Bruce has always eyed him at right back and has done since he first arrived.  I guess the issue of TGH in midfield became a more prominent issue given how poor our midfield has been it was frankly impossible for TGH not to improve it.

If the central midfield axis is improved and with the addition of Swift as the attacking midfielder, I guess that pushes TGH back to the right back role.

Again, where that leaves O'Shea who approaches the end of the contract will be interesting..
O'Shea should be nailed on for one of the centre back positions in my opinion. It really should be a priority for the club to tie him down on a new, improved contract. We've done it with too many players past their best; it would be just plain negligent if we failed to do it with a young player who is already good and will only improve from that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on May 31, 2022, 02:52:20 PM
O'Shea should be nailed on for one of the centre back positions in my opinion. It really should be a priority for the club to tie him down on a new, improved contract. We've done it with too many players past their best; it would be just plain negligent if we failed to do it with a young player who is already good and will only improve from that.

I've never agreed with you so much.

O'Shea would start above them all in my view.  A much more reliable defender than the others we have.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on May 31, 2022, 02:53:24 PM
Love to know what Dara's seeking regarding new terms. Whatever they are you can bet we'll seek to reduce them.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on May 31, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
I'd be surprised if Dara doesnt sign. He's a decent championship player and with experience being so important in his position I think he does have the chance to become a mid level prem player in time (If Craig Dawson can, then why not), but he needs games. He's not going to be signed to start by a prem club anytime soon. He's still only play around 50 games in the championship or above. 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KnaveofAlbion on May 31, 2022, 03:44:48 PM
Love to know what Dara's seeking regarding new terms. Whatever they are you can bet we'll seek to reduce them.

Well, yes... That's what haggling is?! Unless they are crazy low.

On this point. I'd love to see an average wage data set for players in the various leagues over the past ten years or so. I read about a year back Covid had started the downward spiral for non-elite players. I wonder what that means for teams like us?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on June 01, 2022, 11:58:20 AM
Well, yes... That's what haggling is?! Unless they are crazy low...........

Which is my main concern, certainly can't see us overpaying him.

Unlike some of our less deserving cases (reportedly).
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on June 01, 2022, 04:17:17 PM
I've never agreed with you so much.

O'Shea would start above them all in my view.  A much more reliable defender than the others we have.
100% agree Liam. Hopefully we'll have him on a new contract by the time the new season begins. Otherwise, I'll be worried that we'll lose him.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on June 22, 2022, 01:39:14 PM
Add dike, swift and Wallace to team that ended last season and we should be very competitive
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on June 22, 2022, 03:49:44 PM
Add dike, swift and Wallace to team that ended last season and we should be very competitive

I'd also like to add Lenihan to partner O'Shea and Choudhury in for Livermore, but that's wishful thinking.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Fritzl Palace on June 23, 2022, 10:10:44 AM
Starting to take shape for next season.

The positions in bold being the ones we need to upgrade for the first XI before the season starts.

Button

Furlong Ajayi O'Shea Townsend

Molumby

Swift Mowatt

Wallace Dike Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on June 23, 2022, 10:33:22 AM
Starting to take shape for next season.

The positions in bold being the ones we need to upgrade for the first XI before the season starts.

Button

Furlong Ajayi O'Shea Townsend

Molumby

Swift Mowatt

Wallace Dike Grant

Please don't use coloured text in posts, thanks
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on June 23, 2022, 11:32:17 AM
Think we need a new starting right back and centre mid as priorities. Then a left back and striker to compete with Townsend and dike.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 23, 2022, 12:35:43 PM
With Swift and Wallace on board, its given us a lot more attacking options. However, I hope Gardner-Hickman doesn't drop down the pecking order as he's shown a lot of promise from midfield. So I would shift Wallace into one of the wide slots in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1.
In a 4-3-3,  I would start with:
                                    Button           
   
  Ajayi                O'Shea            Bartley       Townsend

              TGH                      Mowatt           Swift

       Wallace                         Dike                Diangana
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on June 23, 2022, 07:24:52 PM
If we get choudary I'd go with this, plenty of energy in midfield.
I'd still like Clarke back for balance and a new right back

                                                 Button

Furlong.                   Ajayi.                       O shea         Townsend


Wallace.                   Choudary.              Molumby.     Diangana       

                                                 Swift

                                                 Dike
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on June 23, 2022, 08:16:14 PM
Did anyone see the short video the club up of the players arriving back for training? Mowatt, Grant and Livermore all look like they’ve come back quite heavy too me.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on June 23, 2022, 08:43:31 PM
Did anyone see the short video the club up of the players arriving back for training? Mowatt, Grant and Livermore all look like they’ve come back quite heavy too me.

I don't know whether the camera is using certain lenses for certain players but Zohore looks the slimmest i've seen him!  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 23, 2022, 08:58:29 PM
The two new arrivals are very obviously coming as starters in their positions. Equally Dike is nailed on as the Centre Forward.

That pretty much gives us the bulk  of the front of the team. The only decision outstanding is wide left Diangana or Grant wide left?

The more attacking the front 4 is and right now it looks very attacking the more Bruce will opt for defensively solid options elsewhere.

We also know Bruce is going to a back 4 that is largely in place various options at CB and have full backs which are the very least competent at Championship level (not saying they can't be improved upon)

Assuming the choice is either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 I am fairly certain there will be a double 6 at the base of it and right now the would be Livermore and Molumby. It is questionable as to what this means for TGH or Mowatt but I suspect neither will be fixtures in Bruce's midfield.

I suspect the next priority is another option in the 6 role (hence the link with Choudhary although how much mileage is in that particular rumour)

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on June 23, 2022, 10:02:16 PM
It’s looking like 4-2-3-1 to me. 4-3-3 could work but it’s doesn’t look as natural as 4-2–3-1 with the players available.  Whichever players miss out also seem to be more seamlessly interchangeable with those in the first team either during a game or through injuries and suspension.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on June 23, 2022, 10:12:43 PM
            Palmer/Button
Furlong Ajayi O’Shea Townsend
         Molumby Mowatt
       Wallace Swift Grant
                   Dike

Upgrades needed on Furlong and Molumby for me. If Mowatt gets back to his form pre injury against Stoke away then he’s one of the best in the league. Choudhury would sort the midfield. Maybe Nyambe on a free, would take Ethan laird on loan as well. Either would improve on Furlong. Competition for Townsend and Dike needed as well as a left footed centre back. Would probably need to shift Kipre, Bartley, Robinson, Phillips & Zohore
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wbasoprano on June 24, 2022, 07:37:49 AM
                  Button                                                                         TGH  Ajayi O’Shea Townsend
       Molumby Mowatt
   Wallace Swift Diangana
                   Dike
I'd probably start with this if we went into the season with what we have now. Lots of room for improvement still, Choudhury being my biggest wish.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on June 24, 2022, 09:42:57 AM
I am hopeful that the addition of Swift allows us to get the best from Diangana - similar to how Pereira did with his ability to play through the lines and therefore create space for Diangana to operate from. We have to face facts that if he does not rediscover his form this season then we're left with a busted flush.

Button/Palmer

Furlong Ajayi O'Shea Townsend
 
         TGH    New Midfielder

Wallace     Swift      Diangana

               Dike
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on June 24, 2022, 01:24:49 PM
I am hopeful that the addition of Swift allows us to get the best from Diangana - similar to how Pereira did with his ability to play through the lines and therefore create space for Diangana to operate from. We have to face facts that if he does not rediscover his form this season then we're left with a busted flush.

Button/Palmer

Furlong Ajayi O'Shea Townsend
 
         TGH    New Midfielder

Wallace     Swift      Diangana

               Dike

I’d be happy with that team Liam. I much prefer the idea with Furlong and Townsend being full backs with our main attacking outlets in front of them. If we can improve one or both then great but I think we’re more likely to see Ashworth as back up to Townsend and O’Shea at RB with Ingram as 3rd choice.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 24, 2022, 02:19:11 PM
What's key is getting the balance right between attacking and defensive players. (as Johan Cruyff used to say  ;)).   A lot of the formations above are showing 4 attacking players, which I think is too few.  Players like Mulumby and Livermore offer next to nothing in a creative way, which was a main reason we struggled last season. There is no way both should be selected. Whether Choudhry would be an upgrade, I don't know, but reports suggest he too is limited in a creative sense. Personally, I would have Mowatt as one defensive midfielder, who can deliver decent passes forward.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: jimmyj on June 24, 2022, 02:53:26 PM
What's key is getting the balance right between attacking and defensive players. (as Johan Cruyff used to say  ;)).   A lot of the formations above are showing 4 attacking players, which I think is too few.  Players like Mulumby and Livermore offer next to nothing in a creative way, which was a main reason we struggled last season. There is no way both should be selected. Whether Choudhry would be an upgrade, I don't know, but reports suggest he too is limited in a creative sense. Personally, I would have Mowatt as one defensive midfielder, who can deliver decent passes forward.

As Swift will presumably be playing an advanced position, and we look to be favouring a back four its imperative that the two left in the middle are able to do both: break up and lay off. Also hugely important that they both be mobile enough to cover a lot of ground.

Mowatt should be fine there, if his recovery has gone well. I'm fairly confident he still has plenty to give and was hampered by a bad injury and an aimless, unsuitable and changing playing philosophy last season.  He's the one that should receive the ball and find that pass forward to the attacking unit in front of him.

The other one is the destroyer, the clearer. Livermore doesn't have the legs for it, in my opinion. Mulumby doesn't (yet) have the nous for it. I dearly hope this deal for Choudhury is on the cards, because I think that role would suit him to the ground.


I wonder how long Brucey boy will be given if we get off to a bad start. Presumably lots of people of looking at our squad and thinking we should do well, including the board. If we don't, I really hope we don't hang about making changes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on June 24, 2022, 04:24:20 PM
Most teams these days attack with 5 or 6 players pushed forwards, mimicking the old W-M formation, or variations thereof.

In a 4-2-3-1, I would expect Wallace on the right, so you could play a more defensive right back behind them, or someone like TGH who provide more threat in the half space.

On the left, Townsend prefers to play on the overlap, so maybe it makes more sense to play Grant.

We could line up with

               Button
O'Shea Ajayi Bartley Townsend
        Molumby Livermore
   Wallace Swift Grant
                 Dike

Which when we have the ball looks more like

   O'Shea Ajayi Bartley
   Molumby Livermore
Wallace Swift Townsend
          Dike     Grant

Or we could go with:

TGH Ajayi O'Shea Townsend
      Molumby Mowatt
    Wallace Swift Grant
               Dike

Which in attack could look like

       Ajayi O'Shea
 TGH Molumby Mowatt
Wallace Swift Townsend
       Dike    Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on June 24, 2022, 06:22:57 PM
We can still upgrade on both full backs. But we are crying out of an okay yokuslu or yacob type.

Think a lot will depend now on who we can get rid of. I would have signed clarke if we had space for him (reminded me of phil Gilchrist in his play). Maybe if kipre goes theres a deal to be done.

If we dump matt Phillips or Livermore if not to the MLS that really would help the rebuild.

As it stands we have a good front 4 or 5

Wallace swift diangana/grant behind Dike with robinson in the wings
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on June 24, 2022, 07:10:55 PM
I'm not convinced about TGH as a defensive full back.  From what I've seen he gets turned too easily.   Ingram has better potential in the RB spot.  If, with Wallace we don't need an attacking RB then I would put O'Shea there.
Diangana is best used as an impact sub, brought on when defenders may be tiring.
Somebody said that Mowatt was a good passer but his main MO was to loop balls forward for the Ismael chasers.  I think the jury's out on him but if he trains well then he deserves a chance.

Do we have 5 subs next year?

I would go with:-

                              Button

O'Shea       Ajayi         LCB            Townsend/Ashworth
 
         Molumby      Livermore then Mowatt

       Wallace     Swift      Grant then Diangana

                        Dike
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on June 26, 2022, 12:12:55 PM
Just wondering do Wallace & Swift have any aerial abilities?
I'm afraid I don't know much about either guy, what height are they?
I think we need another forward apart from Dyke who can head a ball up front
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggie79 on June 26, 2022, 02:59:55 PM
A few people have suggested Dara at RB, what a waste that would be, just get a proper RB and let Dara do what he does best as a left sided CB. A RB is the most important signing of this window for me. Lets hope Bruce agrees.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 26, 2022, 03:36:17 PM
We have signed 2 of the 6 players that Bruce suggested he was going to sign this window that leaves 4 to be recruited.

We need a genuine rotation option for Dike as things stand his workload will be too great.
Bruce plainly wants another DM and given his approach to the game (not mine) he is absolutely right.

Personally I think the other two signings are entirely dependent on unknowns (not to Bruce I would hope!!) which really could change my view on the structure of the squad.

1. Which players leave, Bruce has said there needs to be outgoings and that won't always be your least favourite player
2. Whether or not Ashworth and Ingram can be seen as viable back up options at full back
3. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 and they are very different options and might have a big influence on 1. 

The easy bit has been done in signing Swift and Wallace but what happens next is both more difficult and will define the coming season to a greater degree than either of those two signings although I expect both to have a major and beneficial impact on the team.   

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on June 26, 2022, 04:21:17 PM
If Bruce wants to sign another DM, then that means neither Molumby nor Livermore should be starting. Otherwise we will be too loaded in favour of defensive players. That might be sufficient to see off Rotherham or Hull at home, but not for the more difficult opponents. We need to be playing on the front foot with midfielders able to spot and deliver forward passes at a decent tempo.
Whilst Furlong and Townsend are okay, I think we could do better. We need attacking over lapping backs, with enough composure to deliver quality crosses or cutbacks. Defensively, they are also no more than average.

I also think we need to plan for Dike being unavailable. The only other natural No.9 is Zohore. That doesn't necessarily mean another good header (as someone here suggested), as natural headers are not usually good at playing combinations along the ground. I'm expecting and hoping that Swift and Wallace will be playing more in to feet.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on June 26, 2022, 06:43:16 PM
Personally I would never put a team out with a traditional DM in it ever. The role of the 6 is evolving even among the more traditional British Managers. The days of them just winning back the ball and laying off a simple pass are gone. Look at Rice and Soucek at West Ham under Moyes and what they do and where they play. The key is they move in tandem it is not always one sitting and the other doing the bulk of the leg work. 

The prime purpose is still to cover the central areas against counter attacks but they will be making progressive passes into the forward players and to be fair to Molumby he has shown a better range of progressive passes toward the end of the season than we had hitherto seen.

Obviously we are still in wait and see mode I could be wrong but this is the direction that Bruce is heading in my view.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on June 26, 2022, 07:03:54 PM
Personally I would never put a team out with a traditional DM in it ever. The role of the 6 is evolving even among the more traditional British Managers. The days of them just winning back the ball and laying off a simple pass are gone. Look at Rice and Soucek at West Ham under Moyes and what they do and where they play. The key is they move in tandem it is not always one sitting and the other doing the bulk of the leg work. 

The prime purpose is still to cover the central areas against counter attacks but they will be making progressive passes into the forward players and to be fair to Molumby he has shown a better range of progressive passes toward the end of the season than we had hitherto seen.

Obviously we are still in wait and see mode I could be wrong but this is the direction that Bruce is heading in my view.

My worry is I don't trust Bruce to play the kind of football that would suit a more well-rounded six. If we knew he would play a more possession-orientated approach, then I would very much agree.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on June 28, 2022, 08:28:09 PM
Right back and a centre forward we need now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie96 on July 12, 2022, 10:35:59 PM
Yokuslu coming in would mean more of a 433 to me.

             Palmer/Button
Furlong Ajayi O’Shea Townsend
                Yokuslu
       Swift               Mowatt
Wallace         Dike           Grant/Diangana

Can’t see a better starting eleven in the league on paper. Desperate for a rb/lb and competition for dike though. Notice zohore was back with the 23’s so can’t be impressing Bruce too much. Try and shift Bartley, Phillips and Livermore and the wage budget is probably similar to last season. Easier said than done though. Could do with a Sunderland/stoke coming in for them based on their reputation and ability to pay decent wages.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 13, 2022, 05:38:28 AM
It is going to be a fairly solid and fairly turgid 4231 with two defensive midfielders in the pivot. We will likely draw a fair few and to be successful we'll need to be proficient at set-pieces and hope our above league average attacking players have good seasons.

I expect we'll be fairly successful but not sure we'll win enough games to go up in the top 2, the play-offs will likely beckon. Bruce, I think, has always gone up via the play-offs and I'd guess that being solid but limited sides in terms of controlling and winning games, is why.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on July 13, 2022, 07:20:59 AM
It is going to be a fairly solid and fairly turgid 4231 with two defensive midfielders in the pivot. We will likely draw a fair few and to be successful we'll need to be proficient at set-pieces and hope our above league average attacking players have good seasons.

I expect we'll be fairly successful but not sure we'll win enough games to go up in the top 2, the play-offs will likely beckon. Bruce, I think, has always gone up via the play-offs and I'd guess that being solid but limited sides in terms of controlling and winning games, is why.

Bruce got automatic and playoff promotions with both Blues and Hull. Both clubs were runners up when going up automatically.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on July 15, 2022, 06:48:44 AM
Bruce got automatic and playoff promotions with both Blues and Hull. Both clubs were runners up when going up automatically.

Thanks Dan, at 5:38am, I was too lazy to check! My fears still remain whether we will set the side up to win enough games but let's see, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Fritzl Palace on July 15, 2022, 08:50:57 AM
Button

Furlong Ajayi O'Shea Townsend

Yokuslu

Swift Mowatt

Wallace Dike Grant
​

Sort the full backs out and bring in Clarke and I might be getting excited...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 18, 2022, 06:00:09 PM
With Yoksulu landing I think the first XI is pretty much set (not saying there won't be more signings) Assuming Yoksulu is fit enough to play at Middlesbrough my gut instinct is that Bruce will go with (this is not what I think we should do but that is a totally different country so not worth discussing)

Button

Furlong
Ajayi
O'Shea
Townsend

Yoksulu
Molumby

Wallace
Swift
Diangana

Dike

Anyone not in it is tradeable as unlikely as that might seem




 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Barrington on July 18, 2022, 06:12:38 PM
Right back has been my biggest worry for a couple of seasons. For example, Ajayi has a bit of a mistake in him at times so we could do with a right back who has solid defensive capabilities to cover if he messes up. Furlong isn't that player in my opinion. Sort out a solid-ish right back and we've got a very competitive team.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on July 18, 2022, 06:26:09 PM
TGH at rb
Mowett not Mulumby
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on July 18, 2022, 06:54:20 PM
                        Button/Foster

                  Semi. Bartley. Clarke

   T G H.               Yokuslu.            Townsend

            Wallace.     Zidane.    Swift

                              Dike

😉

                           
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on July 18, 2022, 08:30:43 PM
TGH is no better and less experienced than Furlong at RB.  If a really defensive RB is required then use O'Shea and use Bartley.

                                                 Button

           Furlong               Ajayi                   O'Shea                     Townsend

                                                Yokuslu (Jake, if not fit yet)

            Wallace            Molumby                   Swift                        Mowatt

                                                    Dike

Hoping that Wallace and Mowatt can find Dike's forehead.
Bring on Diangana for Mowatt, TGH for Molumby in last 25 if we need a goal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggie79 on July 18, 2022, 08:45:33 PM
Mowatt is never a left winger, wide forward or for that matter he cant play as a left midfielder either. It will be Diang or Grant playing as a wide forward on the left.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on July 18, 2022, 10:15:25 PM
TGH is no better and less experienced than Furlong at RB.  If a really defensive RB is required then use O'Shea and use Bartley.

                                                 Button

           Furlong               Ajayi                   O'Shea                     Townsend

                                                Yokuslu (Jake, if not fit yet)

            Wallace            Molumby                   Swift                        Mowatt

                                                    Dike

Hoping that Wallace and Mowatt can find Dike's forehead.
Bring on Diangana for Mowatt, TGH for Molumby in last 25 if we need a goal.
Did you really suggest Bartley at RB?..
I think o,shea is off.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 18, 2022, 11:16:26 PM
Did you really suggest Bartley at RB?..
I think o,shea is off.

They means, use O'Shea at RB and put Bartley in the gap left by O'Shea at CB
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on July 19, 2022, 05:03:41 AM
           Button or Palmer

 Oshea Ajayi Bartley Townsend

               Okay Mowatt

Wallace.      Swift.    Diangana
 
                   Dike

Bench: keeper furlong TGH Reach Livermore Phillips Grant.

Looks better already... an actual right back moving oshea to the centre taking bartley out team would really strengthen us.
Depends who else goes this summer...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on July 19, 2022, 10:21:52 AM
Did you really suggest Bartley at RB?..
I think o,shea is off.

Might have been a bit ambiguous.  I meant (if not satisfied with furlong) move O'Shea to RB from LCB and replace with Bartley.

PS I don't understand why Furlong receives such extreme criticism here.  He's been no worse than a lot of our back line and has made some could recoveries and saving tackles.  With a better defensive midfield the ack line might not be under so much stress.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on July 19, 2022, 11:29:23 AM
           Button or Palmer

 Oshea Ajayi Bartley Townsend

               Okay Mowatt

Wallace.      Swift.    Diangana
 
                   Dike

Bench: keeper furlong TGH Reach Livermore Phillips Grant.


Would be my starting line-up as well, although a question mark over O'Shea at right back as I don't think he's so good going forward with the ball.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on July 19, 2022, 11:50:16 AM
           Button or Palmer

 Oshea Ajayi Bartley Townsend

               Okay Mowatt

Wallace.      Swift.    Diangana
 
                   Dike

Bench: keeper furlong TGH Reach Livermore Phillips Grant.

Looks better already... an actual right back moving o'shea to the centre taking bartley out team would really strengthen us.
Depends who else goes this summer...

This 11 is close to mine too. Only I would put O'Shea centrally and Furlong back at right back.   I'd also swap Diangana for Grant. I think Diangana is more talented, but he doesn't deserve to start at the moment and Grant may still be one of our main goal threats as it stands.

It is also a very slight adjustment but I'd put Okay on the left side. Left side will need more protection than right.

On the bench, I'd sooner have Robinson than Phillips if Robinson is still here but I accept Robbo may be the easier to move on. I'd also swap Molumby for Reach. Having put O'Shea at centrally it also means we do have a central defender on the bench.

I'd be actively trying to move Reach, Phillips and Bryan out.

Longer term, it concerns me how old the side / squad is looking though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 19, 2022, 02:51:21 PM
This 11 is close to mine too. Only I would put O'Shea centrally and Furlong back at right back.   I'd also swap Diangana for Grant. I think Diangana is more talented, but he doesn't deserve to start at the moment and Grant may still be one of our main goal threats as it stands.

It is also a very slight adjustment but I'd put Okay on the left side. Left side will need more protection than right.

On the bench, I'd sooner have Robinson than Phillips if Robinson is still here but I accept Robbo may be the easier to move on. I'd also swap Molumby for Reach. Having put O'Shea at centrally it also means we do have a central defender on the bench.

I'd be actively trying to move Reach, Phillips and Bryan out.

Longer term, it concerns me how old the side / squad is looking though.

I agree this squad is very much bolted together for a stab at promotion if it fails it will start to look very old very quickly

I think there maybe a different starting XI by the close of the window than at Middlesbrough which might be too soon for Yokuslu and there will be turnover in the squad between now and then.

Things that I am fairly certain of at this stage.

If they are fit they play:

Button Townsend Ajayi Yokuslu Wallace Swift and Dike.

That leaves four spots that have some sort of question mark over them or might change during the remainder of the window.

Right Back currently Furlong by default and likely to start at Middlesbrough

Centre Back to partner Ajayi likely to be O'Shea in the first instance as Bartley has missed some preseason with injury

Centre Midfield the issue is who will partnering Yokuslu. I feel that it will be a double 6 (Molumby and Livermore) but until we a see an actual competitive line up we won't know.

Wide Left Straight choice between Diangana and Grant. Diangana is the most logical in a 4-2-3-1 but Grant would work in a 4-3-3 but that isn't a natural fit with Wallace.

In terms of outbounds anything is possible but there are some that are more likely than others. I think they will be necessary for Bruce to bring in any additional signings. 

I don't think Bryan is fit so I doubt we will be able to move him on this summer. While many would like to see Phillips go there is no way anybody is going to be the counter party to that deal.

I suspect Mowatt and Bartley might be available the latter because I think Bruce is hankering after another Centre Back.

Watch this space

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 19, 2022, 09:37:36 PM
Worth remembering at this point that both Bartley and Mowatt (along with Button) were in the group of players Bruce criticised for not living within an hours drive of the training ground. Neither seem to be high up Bruce's plans at the moment and so unless something had changed, I wouldn't be shocked to see both on the periphery this season.

Personally I'd like to see Mowatt partner Yokuslu in midfield but I think Bruce will prefer Molumby or even Livermore. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mowat out on loan by January - maybe to a Huddersfield, Sheff Utd or Rotherham.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KnaveofAlbion on July 20, 2022, 12:26:14 PM
Yokuslu coming in would mean more of a 433 to me.

                   Button
Furlong Ajayi O’Shea Townsend
               Yokuslu Mowatt
                     Swift               
Wallace         Dike           Grant/Diangana


This is the starting XI for me also, now that Dara has signed up long term. Need a new RB in my opinion. The front 4 will be rotated alot with the new 5 subs rule. So i'd hope to get maybe 2 exciting youth players from the Prem. I'm not that OTT about Gayle coming back if honest.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on July 20, 2022, 05:45:51 PM
Based on last nights display at Oxford we are still sadly laking a decent playmaker who can move the ball forwards quickly AND ACCURATELY There was still far too much sideways and backwards passing for my liking and for many of those around me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on July 20, 2022, 11:53:07 PM
Based on last nights display at Oxford we are still sadly laking a decent playmaker who can move the ball forwards quickly AND ACCURATELY There was still far too much sideways and backwards passing for my liking and for many of those around me

Despite the stats I do believe Yokuslu is good at ball winning and playing decent passes and if those are to Swift, Wallace and Diangana or Dike with his back to goal bringing midfielders up the pitch then I'm confident we have what you describe.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on July 21, 2022, 07:33:54 AM
The Lioness' can shoot and score outside of the box. Why don't we try it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 26, 2022, 08:41:12 AM
Article in The Athletic this morning saying that Grant and Dike are competing for the CF role.

Means that Diangana is probably assured of his LW role unless Bruce wants to adapt for individual games - the article mentions Middlesbrough's full back having a goal threat, so he may play the more disciplined Phillips.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on July 26, 2022, 09:51:40 AM
Having watched Hertha open us up for their goal, they had a player spare on our left.  I can only think that this was a left sided attacker not tracking back.  Also Townsend seemed to be nowhere.  I was a good goal; the ball was swiftly zig-zagged across our back line but there may have been time for our left sided attacker to recognise the overlap?   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on July 26, 2022, 10:03:41 AM
Having watched Hertha open us up for their goal, they had a player spare on our left.  I can only think that this was a left sided attacker not tracking back.  Also Townsend seemed to be nowhere.  I was a good goal; the ball was swiftly zig-zagged across our back line but there may have been time for our left sided attacker to recognise the overlap?

It was a good goal.

Townsend was out of position as he was challenging the #14, Phillips was just strolling back instead of getting into position to cover Townsend.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on July 26, 2022, 12:43:34 PM
It was a good goal.

Townsend was out of position as he was challenging the #14, Phillips was just strolling back instead of getting into position to cover Townsend.

Incredibly bad defending and very naive from Townsend who came charging out out of position attracted to the ball. I don't rate Phillips but I'm not expecting my winger to switch defensive duties with the left back. It was school boy stuff from Townsend - exactly how not to defend. You are supposed to play as a tight unit with your fellow back four.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on July 26, 2022, 01:26:34 PM
Listening to the "not the top 20" podcast (the lads featured on the Sky football league coverage), they are also raving about Boro's threat from outside, just as our local journos are cautioning. Jones had a breakthrough season last year but was at times the only real attacking outlet. They ha r now signed Ryan Giles on loan from Wolves for the new season and he is very well liked by those who have seen him and means they have a double threat on either wing.

I wouldn't blame Bruce for going defensive to try to combat them, although it would be strange not to start Wallace given he was the star signing this summer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on July 26, 2022, 01:28:31 PM
Incredibly bad defending and very naive from Townsend who came charging out out of position attracted to the ball. I don't rate Phillips but I'm not expecting my winger to switch defensive duties with the left back. It was school boy stuff from Townsend - exactly how not to defend. You are supposed to play as a tight unit with your fellow back four.

Not sure what you are watching but if you watch the highlights again Townsend just tracks the run of his man after he plays a short pass in case he receives the ball again.

Nothing wrong with wanting a winger to help out his defender.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 26, 2022, 01:53:08 PM
Not sure what you are watching but if you watch the highlights again Townsend just tracks the run of his man after he plays a short pass in case he receives the ball again.

Nothing wrong with wanting a winger to help out his defender.

Am I being blind? It's Mowatt who lets his man run off him. Phillips is out of shot, but there's no overlapping player.

As you say, Townsend stays with his man. You could argue he gets too tight, and could afford to stay in line with O'Shea, but then you're giving their player space on the edge of the box.

On the Facebook highlights you can see Mowatt half attempt to intercept the pass to Townsend's man, which lets his man run off him and receive the ball. At that point Dara is in a 2v1 and they work it well.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on July 26, 2022, 02:11:16 PM
Am I being blind? It's Mowatt who lets his man run off him. Phillips is out of shot, but there's no overlapping player.

As you say, Townsend stays with his man. You could argue he gets too tight, and could afford to stay in line with O'Shea, but then you're giving their player space on the edge of the box.

On the Facebook highlights you can see Mowatt half attempt to intercept the pass to Townsend's man, which lets his man run off him and receive the ball. At that point Dara is in a 2v1 and they work it well.

it is Mowatt that let's the number 11 run who then plays the ball through to the number 7 to score.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on July 26, 2022, 02:42:38 PM
it is Mowatt that let's the number 11 run who then plays the ball through to the number 7 to score.

Yeah, I think we're in agreement there.

I don't think Townsend does much wrong there, but equally I don't see Phillips as the culprit
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 26, 2022, 02:59:16 PM
The move highlights what has been very apparent for some while that Mowatt isn't great defensively which is why I suspect Bruce won't be playing him along side Yokuslu.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: brummyroader on July 26, 2022, 04:37:48 PM
I know formations can be overplayed but do you think SB will go 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

For me Swift is the magic man and needs to stay within 15/20 yards of Dike and not dropping too deep which he would need to do in a 4-3-3.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on July 26, 2022, 04:54:06 PM
Am I being blind? It's Mowatt who lets his man run off him. Phillips is out of shot, but there's no overlapping player.

As you say, Townsend stays with his man. You could argue he gets too tight, and could afford to stay in line with O'Shea, but then you're giving their player space on the edge of the box.

On the Facebook highlights you can see Mowatt half attempt to intercept the pass to Townsend's man, which lets his man run off him and receive the ball. At that point Dara is in a 2v1 and they work it well.

That is exactly what he should have done and left it to the centre backs to step out or midfield to track back, you defend as a unit, we don't man mark and the last thing you want is your left back charging out ahead of his defensive line, which just leaves a huge hole which was easily exploited.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on July 31, 2022, 11:28:58 AM
We have a competitive starting XI to talk about that gives us some insight into Bruce's thinking.

Or do we? Everybody in the media is hyping 'Boro's chances and as such Boro away might be seen as one of the trickier fixtures so yesterday's line up might be a one off. I suspect that Phillips as left winger probably is a one off and I still think Bruce is nursing Dike back into the line up. Longer term I think we will see both Diangana and Dike as regular starters not bench options.

I do think that the double 6 pivot is here to stay. Yokuslu will improve it but it will be him plus one of Molumby or  Livermore. I suspect that does mean Swift needs to play a little deeper in the 10 role to link play rather than be just off the lone Centre Forward.

In terms of what we need to do between now and the end of the window. If Bruce won't trust either TGH or Ingram at Right Back we need a new Right Back if they could also cover at Centre Back that would be handy. We also need a genuine back up option to Dike, because as has been said many times before Grant is pretty useless as a Centre Forward in a a 4-2-3-1. Not a different option but a target man in the same mould as Dike.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 09, 2022, 06:10:54 AM
Two games in we have seen how we are going to play. 4231 with the rb playing high and the lb staying deeper. A fairly defensive double pivot with the aim to get the ball in to wide areas and fashion chances by crossing. Off the ball we are fairly aggressive put of possession but aren't playing with a super high press.

Based on this blueprint I think we are short of another striker even before the Dike injury, one that is an aerial threat and thrives on balls in the box from wide. I think we also need a backup 10 and rather than a rb we probably just need a 4th cb as cover, TGH can play the offensive rb role and challenge Furlong. Robinson doesn't really fit in with Bruce favouring Reach and there a question marks over Mowatt who seems 4th choice and isn't really suited to be a defensive pivot player.

GK: Button, Palmer

RB: Furlong, Gardner-Hickman
LB: Townsend, Bryan
CB: Ajayi, O'Shea, Bartley,

DM: Molumby, Yokuslu, Livermore, Mowatt
RM: Wallace, Phillips
AM: Swift, Robinson
LM: Diangana, Reach

CF: Dike, Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 09, 2022, 04:10:49 PM
Two games in we have seen how we are going to play. 4231 with the rb playing high and the lb staying deeper. A fairly defensive double pivot with the aim to get the ball in to wide areas and fashion chances by crossing. Off the ball we are fairly aggressive put of possession but aren't playing with a super high press.

Based on this blueprint I think we are short of another striker even before the Dike injury, one that is an aerial threat and thrives on balls in the box from wide. I think we also need a backup 10 and rather than a rb we probably just need a 4th cb as cover, TGH can play the offensive rb role and challenge Furlong. Robinson doesn't really fit in with Bruce favouring Reach and there a question marks over Mowatt who seems 4th choice and isn't really suited to be a defensive pivot player.

GK: Button, Palmer

RB: Furlong, Gardner-Hickman
LB: Townsend, Bryan
CB: Ajayi, O'Shea, Bartley,

DM: Molumby, Yokuslu, Livermore, Mowatt
RM: Wallace, Phillips
AM: Swift, Robinson
LM: Diangana, Reach

CF: Dike, Grant

Agree with a lot of this.  From Bruce's post match comments the plan is definitely 4-2-3-1. I have fairly significant reservations about Grant in the Centre Forward role but they were eased a little by the way we played last night in terms of passing and possession.  That said with our main threat still being crosses from Wallace a player with physical presence is a must particularly when as is frequently the case the opposition will be playing with a back 3.

In terms of cover. There are issues at both full backs unless we rely on Ingram/TGH and Ashworth (personally I'm fine with that but the Manager isn't). There is a lack of cover on left wing Reach is left footed but is a very different player to Diangana and as identified Swift is pretty much only option we have as a 10. Wallace can switch into the role but obviously that takes him from the right wing.

The priority now has to be a Centre Forward. It would really be helpful to have a couple of extra bodies in the squad particularly ones which can cover a couple of positions. eg left wing/ 10 and full back/centre back.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 09, 2022, 05:13:57 PM
I reckon Wallace will soon be targetted by the "less sophisticated" full backs, hope he is robust enough for it, havent seen anything to suggest he isnt
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 09, 2022, 05:37:45 PM
Two games in we have seen how we are going to play. 4231 with the rb playing high and the lb staying deeper. A fairly defensive double pivot with the aim to get the ball in to wide areas and fashion chances by crossing. Off the ball we are fairly aggressive put of possession but aren't playing with a super high press.

...

GK: Button, Palmer

RB: Furlong, Gardner-Hickman
LB: Townsend, Bryan
CB: Ajayi, O'Shea, Bartley,

DM: Molumby, Yokuslu, Livermore, Mowatt
RM: Wallace, Phillips, 
AM: Swift, Robinson
LM: Diangana, Reach

CF: Dike, Grant

Given our ownership, we are more likely to pick up injuries and suspensions than new players.  So we need to be flexible with what we have.  So alternatives might be:

GK: Button, Palmer

RB: Furlong, O'Shea, Ingram
LB: Townsend, Ashworth
CB: Ajayi, Bartley, Bryan

DM: Molumby, Yokuslu, Livermore
RM: Wallace,  Gardner-Hickman (or at DM)
AM: Swift, Robinson, Mowatt
LM: Diangana, Reach

CF: (Dike, I have an ominous recall of some past CFs here) Grant, Phillips, Cleary
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 09, 2022, 06:19:09 PM
Given our ownership, we are more likely to pick up injuries and suspensions than new players.  So we need to be flexible with what we have.  So alternatives might be:

GK: Button, Palmer

RB: Furlong, O'Shea, Ingram
LB: Townsend, Ashworth
CB: Ajayi, Bartley, Bryan

DM: Molumby, Yokuslu, Livermore
RM: Wallace,  Gardner-Hickman (or at DM)
AM: Swift, Robinson, Mowatt
LM: Diangana, Reach

CF: (Dike, I have an ominous recall of some past CFs here) Grant, Phillips, Cleary

Oh yeah there is some more flexibility than my post suggests, Gardner-Hickman can cover right midfield and Reach can cover left back too for example.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 18, 2022, 01:19:12 AM
I am starting to get a little concerned about what I'm witnessing at a tactical level although this not completely divorced from  the issues of personnel.

Bruce has settled on a 4-2-3-1 and given the personnel and Bruce's own preference for a back 4 it is probably the best fit.

Defensively we are stable enough the back four with a double 6 pivot is not giving up many big chances.

Our issues are nearly all in possession and chance creation and conversation. 

Our chief route to goal is crosses into the box (this is bad and inefficient regardless of personnel). To have a chance of exploiting a cross you need 3 players making runs into the box we are lucky if we have one.

Diangana is thriving as a left winger and probably is the one bright spark in a forward line that is not presently functioning.

Swift who is nominally the 10  is playing too deep (whether by instruction or inclination I don't know). Tellingly he did not have a single touch in the opposition box against Cardiff.

Wallace is putting in a high volume of crosses but there are times when he needs to vary the approach but would be greatly assisted if Swift was closer to him and Grant.

Bruce obviously believes that Grant is a Centre Forward in a 4-2-3-1 he is perhaps if you have Marouane Fellaini as your number 10 but otherwise no. This is a big problem it would have been a problem if Dike had been fit it has ballooned since. Getting a Centre Forward who can play as the lone striker fixes the problem to the degree that Bruce is able and or willing to play that player. Grant/Robinson are hirers for a different system but they remain on the books and Grant is likely to remain first choice Centre Forward. 

For the most part the pieces are in place but there does need to be some serious work on how it all fits together.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: California Dreaming on August 18, 2022, 02:32:28 AM
We do not need to play 2 defensive midfielders at home against the likes of Cardiff. We need to get players central nearer to Grant to at least offer some threat through the middle by going 4-1-4-1. Sadly Bruce just wants to get the ball wide and crossed to the big guy up front. He doesn’t seem to have noticed that we don’t have one.

At least he does have a plan B which is to bring on inferior players to continue the same  failing tactics. Inferior but experienced as we can’t possibly ‘risk’ the youngsters. I just hope Bruce is gone before the last of our u23’s gives up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 18, 2022, 12:52:01 PM

For the most part the pieces are in place but there does need to be some serious work on how it all fits together.   

Agree with this, as elsewhere, we are someone capable of playing as a lone striker away from improving. I'd also add in to this that we could do with another no 10 so that we have rotation for Swift but also have the potential to play Swift and the other as attack minded 8's in a 433, something I believe would help in us varying our approach.

These two players would be my priorities and would fix the issues in the current system whilst providing us with another way to play that should suit existing personnel.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on August 18, 2022, 01:45:27 PM
Why do we persist in having our goalie kick high balls pretty aimlessly down the middle?
Grant is never going to win much that way, I think he won 1 flick on last night, and as for aiming them at the shortest bloke on our team, you have to feel for Grady being used and abused like that
COYB (please)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 18, 2022, 08:40:08 PM
Is there a system or tactics? Personnel can be summed in one word and not a very positive or polite one
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 18, 2022, 09:52:43 PM
Just the same as under Val, we are relying far too much in our buildup play, on our widemen delivering crosses into the box. Whilst for many teams that can yield alot of goals, it doesn't for us because we don't have the forwards and onrushing midfielders who are good at dispatching crosses away. I sometimes think that Townsend can swing his outswinging crosses to the far post all day, nobody will get on the end of them. Has Grant ever met such a cross and scored, even with his foot, never mind headers?

Grant can only be useful if he gets fed from around the edge of the box, and even then his anticipation and ability to find spaces is limited. That means more of the build up needs to be through central midfield. Swift needs to play closer to him, and maybe Robinson has a role to play there. I also think it is worth trying Wallace as more of an attacking midfielder, more central. I'm sure he's played there previously. Yokuslu also needs to be more on the ball further up the pitch. Molumby or Livermore need to operate a lot deeper as neither are much use for setting up assists, or indeed scoring.

Normally I'm all for spreading it wide as that's what stretches defences, but Townsend and Furlong don't seem able to connect with the men in the middle.  When we had Gibbs at left back he was able to cut inside and interact with the forwards.
Bruce badly needs to change things around, because sticking with same tactics/formation, with same players, is not going to help us convert chances into goals.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Brooklynbaggie on August 19, 2022, 06:35:47 AM
Is there a mental thing going on? I can’t believe that a professional sports person doesn’t want to always win but I don’t see any fight or fire burning in the team. Where’s the desire? We’re a quiet accepting team. SJ was a quiet keeper not controlling his defence, our captains are shouting and geeing up the team or as a team in general we seem a little toothless. Before it’s questioned I’m not suggesting that SJ is responsible for our current woes more so that whoever the keeper is sees more in front of him than anyone and the defence - irrespective how how senior a team member they are - shouldn’t be immune from an earful.
When we play supposedly lower opposition in the cups or from our own league they seem to want it, they’re up and at us they noticeably have the will to win.
How many teams play well as a team, their sum is greater than there individual parts, they play for each other. They give their team mates options to pass the ball and take the ball back again, at times we seem to pass the ball and stop, we don’t look for a return pass and put a ‘colleague’ under pressure and we lose possession. More of a ‘I’ve done my bit, over to you’.
May be life at the Albion is too cushy, if the players/team showed the same passion and keenness to win as the board members on here show we’d be more accepting as supporters and results would improve.
As a club we have deeper sitting issues and problems but attitude and desire is free and  should be a pre-requisite for any professional sports person.
Apologies for the long vault but how many of the players/management are radged up at this moment in time?? There in lies the problem.
How long before Wallace thinks ‘what’s the point, no one else cares’.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on August 19, 2022, 10:16:21 AM
Alongside any personnel issues, we also have the fact that Bruce is wedded to getting the ball wide and playing in crosses.

We know that isn't to Grant's strengths, but what you may not know is that crossing in general is a very poor strategy to scoring goals

https://soccerment.com/crossing-effective-strategy/

This article crunched the numbers and found that only 1 in 64 crosses end in a goal.

Barely a quarter of all crosses end with the cross getting to a team mate, so three quarters go to the opposition.

So not only is crossing not good because of our personnel, it's not good full stop!

That's not to say some types of crosses aren't effective - getting to the by-line in the area and cutting the ball back generally is better, as is rolling it across the 6 yard box.

We still need to work the ball wide to stretch defences, but if Bruce's tactics consist of just whipping balls in, it's probably not going to be a fruitful endeavour
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 19, 2022, 06:38:46 PM
Alongside any personnel issues, we also have the fact that Bruce is wedded to getting the ball wide and playing in crosses.

We know that isn't to Grant's strengths, but what you may not know is that crossing in general is a very poor strategy to scoring goals

https://soccerment.com/crossing-effective-strategy/

This article crunched the numbers and found that only 1 in 64 crosses end in a goal.

Barely a quarter of all crosses end with the cross getting to a team mate, so three quarters go to the opposition.

So not only is crossing not good because of our personnel, it's not good full stop!

That's not to say some types of crosses aren't effective - getting to the by-line in the area and cutting the ball back generally is better, as is rolling it across the 6 yard box.

We still need to work the ball wide to stretch defences, but if Bruce's tactics consist of just whipping balls in, it's probably not going to be a fruitful endeavour

This was what I made brief reference to in my earlier post. Regardless of personnel we have to mix things up more. If Wallace crosses the ball in every time the defence and goalie can pretty much anticipate what's coming making things even more difficult for our forwards.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 24, 2022, 07:56:53 AM
We have very few players who are genuinely good enough. We have maybe 5 or 6 good players. The rest can and must be upgraded. The 3 that have come in have improved the first team significantly but we still need a lot of additions and to get rid of some deadwood.

Lets hope we have a busy final week of the window
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 24, 2022, 12:32:23 PM
We have very few players who are genuinely good enough. We have maybe 5 or 6 good players. The rest can and must be upgraded. The 3 that have come in have improved the first team significantly but we still need a lot of additions and to get rid of some deadwood.

Lets hope we have a busy final week of the window

How long have you supported WBA ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 24, 2022, 05:38:51 PM
We have very few players who are genuinely good enough. We have maybe 5 or 6 good players. The rest can and must be upgraded. The 3 that have come in have improved the first team significantly but we still need a lot of additions and to get rid of some deadwood.

Lets hope we have a busy final week of the window

The deadwood boys are on good contracts and will happily run them down so we are limited as to what we can do about additions.  Given what he spent to buy the club and the fact that China is in a depression as regards real estate development, we can't expect Lai to put anything in.  The hope is he doesn't take anymore out.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on August 24, 2022, 07:47:30 PM
This club is in need of a massive reset and it might mean having a season in league 1 to do it.

Steve Bruce needs to go, Ron Gourley needs to be gone. When the big earners contracts finish get rid of them
We can't get rid of the owner unless he is deperate for the cash and decides to sell us at a loss. No one will give him the money he paid because Peace  sold him something that wasn't worth the money. The price he paid is the price of an established top 10 premier team.

With the reset needs to come with a good young manager who knows the lower leagues and who knows the lower league players. This is something other championship teams are doing.

We are a million miles away from the premiership and rightly so. If by some miracle we fluked a promotion to the premier we would be such an embarrassment we could go down as the worse premier team ever. Something we were on course for when we were last in the premier until Big Sam strengthened with loan players.

Its no good saying we need to go up to get the money because that money is only going to go one place !

 


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 24, 2022, 07:50:14 PM
The last thing this club needs is to go into League 1.

Don't understand your thinking there at all.

While i want the old boys gone as much as anyone, Lai is the problem. He's so clueless he would remain at the helm in my view.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on August 24, 2022, 07:57:26 PM
The last thing this club needs is to go into League 1.

Don't understand your thinking there at all.

While i want the old boys gone as much as anyone, Lai is the problem. He's so clueless he would remain at the helm in my view.

It could be another reason for him to sell. Get what money he can for the club because he will never get the money back for what he paid.

I was there in the early 90's when we had a dinosaur manager take us into the 3rd divison. We then rebuilt the team with a new manager saw some cracking games with loads of goals and had a visit to Wembley as well. We also had probably the best atmosphere at a game against Swansea in the play off semi.

That season was a lot more enjoyable that the rubbish we have to endure now. Also the season will probably be over for us by Christmas !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 24, 2022, 08:00:26 PM
It could be another reason for him to sell. Get what money he can for the club because he will never get the money back for what he paid.

I was there in the early 90's when we had a dinosaur manager take us into the 3rd divison. We then rebuilt the team with a new manager saw some cracking games with loads of goals and had a visit to Wembley as well. We also had probably the best atmosphere at a game against Swansea in the play off semi.

That season was a lot more enjoyable that the rubbish we have to endure now. Also the season will probably be over for us by Christmas !!


I had my first season ticket that year, i was about 12, it was dreadful.


We then spent the best part of the next 10 years trying to stay out of the 3rd division rather than pushng for the top flight.


I don't think Lai is aware enough of anything to do with this club to sell. If he was then he would have sold up in the 20/21 PL season at a loss but a lot less of a loss than now.

The guy does not give a rubbish.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on August 24, 2022, 08:15:59 PM

I had my first season ticket that year, i was about 12, it was dreadful.


We then spent the best part of the next 10 years trying to stay out of the 3rd division rather than pushng for the top flight.


I don't think Lai is aware enough of anything to do with this club to sell. If he was then he would have sold up in the 20/21 PL season at a loss but a lot less of a loss than now.

The guy does not give a rubbish.

Keep that thought about staying out the 3rd level.

If we change divisions there is more chance of us going down than going up !!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 24, 2022, 08:25:14 PM
Keep that thought about staying out the 3rd level.

If we change divisions there is more chance of us going down than going up !!

I accept that, that's why it's better to bounce between PL and Champo rather than Champo and L1
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiemart on August 24, 2022, 08:49:32 PM
I accept that, that's why it's better to bounce between PL and Champo rather than Champo and L1

Who said anything about bouncing between Champo and L1.

If we did go down to L1 we would come back a stronger side with younger players and a manager who knows what he is doing and then give the Champo a good go.

At the moment we are treading water in the Championship and you know what happens when you do that too long. You get tired and sink !!!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on August 24, 2022, 10:28:20 PM
How long have you supported WBA ?

Long enough to know it is pie in the sky what i am hoping for. 25 years. Season ticket holder for 12 of that until i left the area
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on August 25, 2022, 07:57:10 PM
At the moment we are in limbo. Going nowhere fast. The only way out is a Sugar Daddy or a meltdown and comeback ( which is not guaranteed). Pray for the Sugar Daddy. If Newcastle can get one. can we?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 25, 2022, 07:59:47 PM
At the moment we are in limbo. Going nowhere fast. The only way out is a Sugar Daddy or a meltdown and comeback ( which is not guaranteed). Pray for the Sugar Daddy. If Newcastle can get one. can we?

In a word,   XX
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 29, 2022, 09:45:06 AM
Genuine question. 'Is there anybody out there?' who isn't enjoying games more than last season? I am. Yes we're lacking in terms of personnel, concentration and ruthlessness but for me at least the football has been much more watchable than under both Val and Bruce last time out. I'm actually going to games for the football as well as the social instead of just the latter.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on August 29, 2022, 03:17:37 PM
Genuine question. 'Is there anybody out there?' who isn't enjoying games more than last season? I am. Yes we're lacking in terms of personnel, concentration and ruthlessness but for me at least the football has been much more watchable than under both Val and Bruce last time out. I'm actually going to games for the football as well as the social instead of just the latter.

100 percent agree with this. Football is way better than last season. Now if only we could convert a few more opportunities into goals……….
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on August 29, 2022, 03:19:36 PM
Genuine question. 'Is there anybody out there?' who isn't enjoying games more than last season? I am. Yes we're lacking in terms of personnel, concentration and ruthlessness but for me at least the football has been much more watchable than under both Val and Bruce last time out. I'm actually going to games for the football as well as the social instead of just the latter.


The football is definitely improved from the games i've seen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on August 29, 2022, 04:09:38 PM
Does anybody know if James Morrison is still involved with first team , don’t think he’s been on the bench for at least the last couple of games !?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 29, 2022, 04:18:29 PM
Does anybody know if James Morrison is still involved with first team , don’t think he’s been on the bench for at least the last couple of games !?

Still on the first team coaching staff according to the Albion OS.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on August 29, 2022, 04:28:37 PM
Does anybody know if James Morrison is still involved with first team , don’t think he’s been on the bench for at least the last couple of games !?

I went to the Hull game & I'm sure he was involved in the warm-up then.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 29, 2022, 07:08:36 PM
Grant: what can you say?  He wouldn't win a heading duel with Kylie/Lulu/Charlie Drake.  He's no centre forward and looks very unhappy there.  Any chance of loaning Jordan Rhodes?

Why then, are balls continually pumped up to him by Button.  It would be much  better to play to the wings - especially as Diangana and Wallace lurk there.

They got a few more chances when Molumby went off,  although Robinson did play his mate in for the penalty shout. (Grant wouldn't have scored it was on his left.)

BTW: Furlong had a moderately poor game. ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 30, 2022, 11:38:02 AM
Grant: what can you say?  He wouldn't win a heading duel with Kylie/Lulu/Charlie Drake.  He's no centre forward and looks very unhappy there.  Any chance of loaning Jordan Rhodes?.......

Whatever happens don't watch the Sheffield United League Cup highlights for who scored our winner and how. And most definitely don't watch the late headed chance against us against Huddersfield either  ;D  ;) .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 30, 2022, 01:28:29 PM
Whatever happens don't watch the Sheffield United League Cup highlights for who scored our winner and how. And most definitely don't watch the late headed chance against us against Huddersfield either  ;D  ;) .
I was in a partial state of shock to hear about his headed goal v Sheff Utd., but it must be a collector's item. I think you'd have to search long and hard to find many other Grant headed goals. Or even headers full stop.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on August 30, 2022, 01:33:58 PM
Grant isn’t brave enough to put either his head or body in where it hurts. Hence putting numerous balls into the box becomes pointless.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on August 30, 2022, 01:45:30 PM
Please use the Karlan Grant thread for any prolonged discussion on KG.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on August 30, 2022, 02:01:40 PM
I was in a partial state of shock to hear about his headed goal v Sheff Utd., but it must be a collector's item. I think you'd have to search long and hard to find many other Grant headed goals. Or even headers full stop.

I have no idea how many goals young Brandon or any of our other targets may have scored with their heads. But prepare yourself Alex, statistics incoming (courtesy of Transfermarkt)  ;D .......

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/karlan-grant/alletore/spieler/314183

........ six headed goals for Karlan Grant in total. One for both Albion and Huddersfield and four for Charlton. Interestingly three of his headers for Charlton came in consecutive games.

In a nod to the Mods the above link can be used to source how many goals other players have scored with their heads, useful when discussing rumoured players given how many crosses we put into the box in our current system ;) .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on August 30, 2022, 11:13:13 PM
Just a gentle reminder of how empty the cupboard is.

We have 1 striker and 2 centre backs and we have only played 7 games - incredible.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on August 30, 2022, 11:38:22 PM
Just a gentle reminder of how empty the cupboard is.

We have 1 striker and 2 centre backs and we have only played 7 games - incredible.

Plus it won't be long before Molumby gets to 5 bookings for a ban, that's without any other injuries or suspensions
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggiee_Boyy_Benn on August 31, 2022, 12:12:23 AM
No funding, owners took money out the club etc etc.

I’m still trying to get my head around playing Adam Reach and Matt Phillips over TGH.

Tonight had my questioning it all, Zohore 30k a week, won’t leave the club on the bench over Reyes Cleary. I know Cleary isn’t ready for first team football but he is closer then Zohore and scoring consistently. Terrible management.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Brooklynbaggie on August 31, 2022, 07:32:17 AM
I really can’t get my head around the TGH situation and as someone mentioned earlier he has to be questioning his future especially when behind several players who are way past their sell by, playing out of position or generally not good. May be I’m not seeing something.
Considering our lack of depth (and not that I particularly rated the guy) did we make a mistake getting rid of Kipre?? Yes makes blunders but have our blunders stopped now he’s gone!!
Matt Clarke, 2.5m to Middlesbrough, why weren’t we all over this?? A week in week our player for 2.5m.
Asante worth a punt, at least he seems to know where the net is at present and seems to want to grab his chance. If it doesn’t work we’ll recoup. Cleary in the wings still learning his trade but again knows where the net is.
We had some great early signing who have made a difference and have experience.
Through team management, club management I really think we’ve missed a trick this season. I was more excited this season than last especially as we seemed to be bringing in players for continuity and creating a side for beyond this season, a break from our having to pay stupid amounts to buy our loan players, spend all our budget and end up with the same team and not improving it.
We are no longer in the paying big money League, but it would be good to see up and coming players (our players) showing passion and determination and many have said that whilst we want to always win if we can’t at least do it trying.
I’m still positive (or is it blinkered) let’s see what happens
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on August 31, 2022, 08:26:26 AM
Squad looks very light now. Have to question if allowing Mowatt and Kipre out on loan without replacements was a good idea. Especially if your unwilling to play TGH.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 01, 2022, 09:06:23 AM
At the end of this season that is Zohore, JL, Bartley and Bryan gone. That's got to be 80k per week saved.

2 of them have done nothing, Zohore a fraud and Bryan through bad injury.

I'd be bringing Taylor into the first team squad as CB, killing it in L1 and already budgeted for.

If we use the money well we can strengthen the squad (with a well thought out managerial appointment hopefully) and get better value for wages player in on frees like Wallace, Swift etc
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 01, 2022, 11:21:48 PM
At the end of this season that is Zohore, JL, Bartley and Bryan gone. That's got to be 80k per week saved.

2 of them have done nothing, Zohore a fraud and Bryan through bad injury.

I'd be bringing Taylor into the first team squad as CB, killing it in L1 and already budgeted for.

If we use the money well we can strengthen the squad (with a well thought out managerial appointment hopefully) and get better value for wages player in on frees like Wallace, Swift etc

I think you will find Zohore still has another year...

Also i think Livermore and reach will both be on a free with bartley and bryan so we really can shift some deadwood if the club for once show common sense and bottle
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 01, 2022, 11:27:29 PM
I think you will find Zohore still has another year...

Also i think Livermore and reach will both be on a free with bartley and bryan so we really can shift some deadwood if the club for once show common sense and bottle

Zohore contract expiry is Jun 30, 2023

End of this season mate
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 02, 2022, 12:32:22 AM
As things stand, we have 15 fit senior outfield players available to us for the next month or so, plus TGH and Ashworth if we wish to use them.

Since the end of January, we have lost 7 players in Snodgrass, Johnstone, Sawyers, Kipre, Mowatt, Robinson and Carroll, while we have brought in 5 new faces in Swift, Wallace, Yokuslu, Thomas-Asante and Kelly.

The squad for me looks a bit thin, the sale of Robinson and the loaning out of Mowatt are particularly difficult to reconcile given the lack of activity their cost savings generated.

With Dike out injured until some time in October or November, we will likely have a lot of ground to make up come January when our season will have restarted post World Cup. At this stage with Bruce and this squad, plus a subdued fan base I’d say it’s another season of mid table coming our way. Next year is when things will really start getting difficult.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 02, 2022, 05:13:19 AM
Devoid of competition at full back unless we are going to give Ashworth and TGH a go. Now we only have 2 fit cbs. Nothing up top Grants 3 goals as ever papering over hes all round poor play. Pressure on the new kid.

Beyond the best 11 (of which 6 are distinctly average) we have nothing. 42 more points for safety and to finish the rebuild summer
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 02, 2022, 06:11:09 AM
If t(http://)hr Alzate and Onomah deals had gone through, I'd have been happy with our options in midfield. Kelly at least provides another body at the back. As we all know, if Bruce insists on playing this cross heavy style of play we will need a target man and someone good in the box from crosses, we haven't addressed that and that will be a huge issue as it has been already as I don't see Bruce making the required adjustments to solve the issue.

The fact we didn't get the midfielders or forward player in does leave our squad depth looking light.

GK: Button, Palmer
RB: Furlong, Gardner-Hickman
LB: Townsend, Reach
CB: Ajayi, O'Shea, Bartley, Kelly
CM: Yokuslu, Molumby, Livermore
RM: Wallace, Phillips
AM: Swift
LM: Diangana, Thomas-Asante
CF: Grant, Dike
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 02, 2022, 07:26:52 AM
Ever been in a position at work where you’ve been asked to do a job with the resources?  How light we are will not be lost on the squad. They’ll likely feel let down too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 02, 2022, 07:03:04 PM
Ever been in a position at work where you’ve been asked to do a job with the resources?  How light we are will not be lost on the squad. They’ll likely feel let down too.

Mate, I'm a Manager in the Social Care sector. It feels exactly like that and I feel like Bruce, only slimmer and better looking. Being at work and then coming to this as my escape is a bloody nightmare.

So we've acquired 2 kittens ;D Mental Health Support cats to help me get though being an Albion fan
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 03, 2022, 12:38:05 PM
For better or worse the tactical pattern is set.

4-2-3-1 cross heavy  particularly from the wide right channel. There isn't much more to say about it really

Personnel, as others have noted we are a little light but the 3 players that are out should return before the World Cup break.

At least it looks like Gardner-Hickman will get game time and on a similar note I have to hope that other youngsters will get roles as squad players. I would much prefer to see Fellowes and Taylor getting the minutes that Phillips or Kelly get but that is not where we are as a club.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on September 03, 2022, 12:48:26 PM
Positives are that we seem to hold our own at worst and outplay top tier teams in this Division at best,  for a majority of time in each game. But we cannot score goals.  The outrageous thing is that even Stevie Wonder could see a striker was urgently required and our suited morons who run the Business pretending to be a Football Club could not even manage to get that over the line. Disgraceful.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggieBoy04 on September 03, 2022, 01:02:58 PM
Mate, I'm a Manager in the Social Care sector. It feels exactly like that and I feel like Bruce, only slimmer and better looking. Being at work and then coming to this as my escape is a bloody nightmare.

So we've acquired 2 kittens ;D Mental Health Support cats to help me get though being an Albion fan
Kittens will also make you stressed as that bite you and scratch you and have enmourous sense of Energy. But Kittens are Cute so
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on September 03, 2022, 01:30:24 PM
Mate, I'm a Manager in the Social Care sector. It feels exactly like that and I feel like Bruce, only slimmer and better looking. Being at work and then coming to this as my escape is a bloody nightmare.

So we've acquired 2 kittens ;D Mental Health Support cats to help me get though being an Albion fan
You have my sympathies having the Albion as your release that is!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 03, 2022, 05:22:33 PM
4231 working we just arent scoring and the opposition have been clinical.

Either BTA up top instead of grant or we go 442 swift drops back with okay 2 play the young lad up top with Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 03, 2022, 09:01:54 PM
There is a 4-4-2 that I think could work, but it's not something Bruce will do:

Button

TGH
O'Shea
Bartley
Townsend/Kelly

Wallace
Swift
Yokuslu
Diangana

BTA
Grant

That's the 'default' formation. 4-4-2 is good for pressing, and we actually did press Burnley quite well at times.

I'm a broken record, but in attack this will morph into a 3-2-5 (strictly speaking it's a 3-2-3-2):

Button

O'Shea
Bartley
Townsend/Kelly

TGH (Inverted Fullback!)
Yokuslu

Wallace
Swift
Diangana

BTA
Grant

That gives us such a solid base - maybe TGH even can move into that right half-space/channel sometimes, but his energy will be good to protect against counters.

With two up, Grant can drift wider on the left and we still have BTA, Wallace and Swift in the middle. Equally, if we go down the right, we have two in the box if we insist on slinging crosses in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: hardtobeat on September 03, 2022, 09:09:17 PM
Inverted full backs , 352 becoming 3232 , etc etc what the actual!? remember the saying “ football is a simple game complicated by people”
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on September 03, 2022, 09:19:26 PM
Inverted full backs , 352 becoming 3232 , etc etc what the actual!? remember the saying “ football is a simple game complicated by people”

This is the modern game. It's very much evolution in terms of tactics going all the way back to the 50s etc. It's basically going back to the W-M formation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Gilsey 56 on September 03, 2022, 11:39:46 PM
In my opinion, Bruce is no tactical genius, he his as inflexible as Val, only difference is the three players we signed at the start of the window. If not for these three we would be in a real mess.
We are void of any imagination from our coach and the signings of these players as masked his inabilities.
We are playing well and I really hope it continues but please don’t tell me a good manager would make no difference.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on September 04, 2022, 06:16:03 AM

I'm a broken record, but in attack this will morph into a 3-2-5 (strictly speaking it's a 3-2-3-2):


As Standaman states further up in the thread, I think 4231 is set as the default formation. However like you, I think we need to be more savvy when on the ball.

Molumby free to roam and get ahead of the ball at times with both full backs allowed to bomb on is causing us to be vulnerable on the transition and leaves Yokuslu and the centre backs with a lotos space to defend.

I'd definitely be tucking our full backs inside with Yokuslu as a general principle (which is why I'd like Gardner-Hickman to be given a run as I believe he is more suited than Furlong for this). Either this approach or Molumby has to stay a bit more central when one of the full backs bomb on.

The fact that we are as far in to the season and this has yet to be addressed is one of my concerns with Bruce. Sure we dominated Watford and Burnley for example but they had big chances and we could easily have lost.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnnyg on September 04, 2022, 01:02:55 PM
Based on how the first raft of games have gone, and considering where we are at with injuries etc., I think Bruce should consider 4-1-3-2
Back 4 picks itself, with TGH staying RB.,
Yokuslu as holding mid
Wallace, Swift, Grady as the 3,
and start with Grant and TBA up front
Surely has to be worth a shot.
Play to our strengths and what we have available.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on September 04, 2022, 01:20:42 PM
Based on how the first raft of games have gone, and considering where we are at with injuries etc., I think Bruce should consider 4-1-3-2
Back 4 picks itself, with TGH staying RB.,
Yokuslu as holding mid
Wallace, Swift, Grady as the 3,
and start with Grant and TBA up front
Surely has to be worth a shot.
Play to our strengths and what we have available.

Depends on the opposition imo.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on September 04, 2022, 06:09:40 PM
Just noticed that we are one of only 6 clubs who have only lost 1 match so far
Also one of 6 clubs who have plus 2 goals or more
Also we have most draws so far
Make of that as you will
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 04, 2022, 10:57:16 PM
Just noticed that we are one of only 6 clubs who have only lost 1 match so far
Also one of 6 clubs who have plus 2 goals or more
Also we have most draws so far
Make of that as you will

Very close to be going in the right direction is what I make of it. Just need a striker……….
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: boinging_along on September 04, 2022, 11:03:56 PM
Just noticed that we are one of only 6 clubs who have only lost 1 match so far
Also one of 6 clubs who have plus 2 goals or more
Also we have most draws so far
Make of that as you will

Like last season all over again.   "... but we're second in the table... we are top scorers.." and we know how that finished.

The other way to look it is, only the bottom 3 (plus us) have won 1 or less.
Or... 15 teams are doing better.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on September 05, 2022, 08:29:14 AM
I'm a positive person mate, that's my outlook in life.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 05, 2022, 08:38:52 AM
Just noticed that we are one of only 6 clubs who have only lost 1 match so far
Also one of 6 clubs who have plus 2 goals or more
Also we have most draws so far
Make of that as you will

we don't score many, we don't concede many = we draw more than we should.

we've generally been the best side in games but struggle to create really clear cut opportunities or players seem to want to pass rather than take an opportunity on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 05, 2022, 09:17:18 AM
we don't score many, we don't concede many = we draw more than we should.

we've generally been the best side in games but struggle to create really clear cut opportunities or players seem to want to pass rather than take an opportunity on.

Goals Scored: Joint 4th in the division
Goals Conceded: 14th in the Division

So far conceding 10 goals in 8 games is a bigger problem than our attack which has done pretty well - contrary to the general narrative that everyone has gotten used to from last season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 05, 2022, 09:22:45 AM
Goals Scored: Joint 4th in the division
Goals Conceded: 14th in the Division

So far conceding 10 goals in 8 games is a bigger problem than our attack which has done pretty well - contrary to the general narrative that everyone has gotten used to from last season.

my point was that we are drawing too many games.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 05, 2022, 11:15:18 AM
my point was that we are drawing too many games.

I think we all agree with that.

Had we kept a few more clean sheets we'd have a few more wins, goals against is statistically worse than our goals for, for what it should be, if we want to be in the top six.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 05, 2022, 12:52:16 PM
I'm a positive person mate, that's my outlook in life.

Good for you LB. I am from exactly the same mould.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on September 05, 2022, 10:15:26 PM
Goals Scored: Joint 4th in the division
Goals Conceded: 14th in the Division

So far conceding 10 goals in 8 games is a bigger problem than our attack which has done pretty well - contrary to the general narrative that everyone has gotten used to from last season.
Yep
We will start to smash some teams, Saturday would be nice, followed by a nice 2-0 at home to the blouse.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggies_24 on September 06, 2022, 03:43:08 PM
I was thinking earlier I can see this team been very similar to the 08/09 team under Mowbray in the Premier League. Very good in between both boxes but not good enough where it really counts. Getting a fit Dike back will do wonders upfront (a big if I know his injury record since joining us a massive concern) & the defending + keeper continue to make basic errors.

 I just don’t see this team as it is getting a top 6 spot I think that blame largely can be placed on Gorlay / Pearce’s shoulders. We need to hope & pray the squad stays fit and can maintain a manageable gap to the top 6 and with some reinforcements early in Jan & with a fit & firing Dike back we could have a strong end to the year however we really are walking a tightrope and any injury now to Wallace, Swift or Okay and it’s curtains, disgraceful of the board & recruitment team to leave us so short.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 08, 2022, 12:30:12 PM
Local rags doing an article on who is out contract end of season and what should be done.


Easy, let them all go.  Livermore, Bartley, Zohore and Bryan.  Roughly 90k per week saved. If this club can't find better value for money then just shut up shop.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on September 08, 2022, 12:37:49 PM
Local rags doing an article on who is out contract end of season and what should be done.


Easy, let them all go.  Livermore, Bartley, Zohore and Bryan.  Roughly 90k per week saved. If this club can't find better value for money then just shut up shop.

Indeed, we have to let them all go.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 08, 2022, 12:40:35 PM
Indeed, we have to let them all go.

We do, and I think we will. In the meantime, such is the paucity of options within the squad we need all on the list except Zohore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 08, 2022, 12:42:28 PM
Bruce said today that Kean Bryan is back on grass recently but wont be rushed so guess he will be back around the World Cup time
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 11, 2022, 05:05:48 PM
So would this be our best and most likely 18 when all fit and firing and assuming Rogic and Pieters sign..

Button
Furlong
Ajayi
O'Shea
Pieters

Yokuslu
Rogic

Wallace
Swift
Diangana

Dike

Palmer, Kelly, Townsend, Molumby, TGH, Grant, BTA.

I'm possibly being hopeful with TGH ahead of Livermore on the bench but if i was right this would mean these guys all miss out:
Bartley
Livermore
Reach
Phillips
Zohore

And also Ashworth and Castro are very unlikely to get a chance.

That squad should have a big chance in this league.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 11, 2022, 05:23:34 PM
Agree with your starting XI but can't see TGH making the bench with all that experience available.

I imagine he would drop out BTA too to squeeze more experience onto the bench.


I see no superior squad in this league.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on September 11, 2022, 05:31:31 PM
Agree with your starting XI but can't see TGH making the bench with all that experience available.

I imagine he would drop out BTA too to squeeze more experience onto the bench.


I see no superior squad in this league.

I'm not sure about our defence, but then most defences in this league abysmal. But the midfield onwards is top drawer even without Rogic.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 11, 2022, 05:33:21 PM
I'm not sure about our defence, but then most defences in this league abysmal. But the midfield onwards is top drawer even without Rogic.

Yeah defence ain't great but it's fine for this league.

Could even move Furlong out for Kelly.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on September 11, 2022, 06:47:16 PM
If one of Rogic or Swift is to drop deeper, I think it’ll be swift. Having Rogic and Dike does suddenly make our depth look a lot better and provide variety too.

Slight concern they say Rogic couldn’t play more than 60 minutes in Scotland. He’s a good player but other than 4 games a season in Scotland where adrenaline takes over, I’d say you need to be fitter in the championship to play week in week out.

In terms of bench, TGH has to be on it over Players like Reach and Phillips. Livermore and Bartley will still get plenty of opportunities throughout the season too.

Ashworth needs to go on loan in Jan, especially if we sign Pieters. Castro needs to go on loan to league two but it seems likely he’ll be released next year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 11, 2022, 06:51:54 PM
I don't see any decent future for Castro, disappointed here generally and absolutely panned by Burton fans. So bad they sent him back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 11, 2022, 08:59:51 PM
Agree with your starting XI but can't see TGH making the bench with all that experience available.

I imagine he would drop out BTA too to squeeze more experience onto the bench.


I see no superior squad in this league.

Bold claim especially given Pieters and Rogic haven't been announced. While I don't think Button's a significant downgrade on Johnstone he's definitely a downgrade.

We don't currently have a proven and  fit central defensive pairing to deliver consistent performances. Our fullbacks are inconsistent.

Meanwhile central midfield remains a problem and we're still short upfront. Other than that I agree we're looking rosey  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 11, 2022, 09:09:11 PM
Bold claim especially given Pieters and Rogic haven't been announced. While I don't think Button's a significant downgrade on Johnstone he's definitely a downgrade.

We don't currently have a proven and  fit central defensive pairing to deliver consistent performances. Our fullbacks are inconsistent.

Meanwhile central midfield remains a problem and we're still short upfront. Other than that I agree we're looking rosey  ;D .

Of course my statement applies if they sign. Cures the fullback situation both sides and Kelly can play CB according to some on here.

Cm of OY, Rogic Swift etc is as good as anything in this league.

Would like another CF of course but we just have to wait till Jan for that when Lai pays us back and our progressive scouting and transfer department will instantly have a deal ready to activate on day 1 of the transfer window. :-X


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 11, 2022, 09:16:19 PM
Of course my statement applies if they sign. Cures the fullback situation both sides and Kelly can play CB according to some on here.

Cm of OY, Rogic Swift etc is as good as anything in this league.

Would like another CF of course but we just have to wait till Jan for that when Lai pays us back and our progressive scouting and transfer department will instantly have a deal ready to activate on day 1 of the transfer window. :-X

So as it stands our goalkeeper isn't as good as last season's, we're short in defence, midfield and attack and we 'might' have a squad capable of challenging for the top four if everything falls right and Dike doesn't pick up another injury  ;D ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 11, 2022, 09:23:50 PM
So as it stands our goalkeeper isn't as good as last season's, we're short in defence, midfield and attack and we 'might' have a squad capable of challenging for the top four if everything falls right and Dike doesn't pick up another injury  ;D ?

Shows how poor the league is when we  can still outplay the supposed good teams.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBArgo on September 12, 2022, 08:25:40 AM
Bold claim especially given Pieters and Rogic haven't been announced. While I don't think Button's a significant downgrade on Johnstone he's definitely a downgrade.

We don't currently have a proven and  fit central defensive pairing to deliver consistent performances. Our fullbacks are inconsistent.

Meanwhile central midfield remains a problem and we're still short upfront. Other than that I agree we're looking rosey  ;D .

Pieters and Rogic may not even be that good. We'll have to wait and see. To assume they're regulars in our first 11 is a bit brave though, especially for a 34 year old.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 12, 2022, 08:45:51 AM
I don't think it's possible to conclude that the acquisition of a couple of ageing players such as Pieters and Rogic suddenly makes us the best squad in the league.  I think we can be guilty of being inward looking; have we really studied the composition of other squads?

Given their ability to loan up and coming players from top teams I would have thought that the likes of Middlesbrough will make a strong end to the season.  Watford have retained Pedro and Sarr (and will probably get a new manager soon).

We get the injury prone Rogic from Celtic while Sheffield Utd loan McAtee from Manchester City.  We should not be overconfident about this squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 12, 2022, 09:01:31 AM
Most people seem to be happy with the likes of Rogic and Pieters, wise signings some have said.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 12, 2022, 09:22:35 AM
Most people seem to be happy with the likes of Rogic and Pieters, wise signings some have said.

We haven't signed them yet. They're decent pros who will add to the squad should we sign them but both are the very definition of post peak and we're still minus a forward. Far too soon to be suggesting we have the strongest squad in the division.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 12, 2022, 09:26:07 AM
We haven't signed them yet. They're decent pros who will add to the squad should we sign them but both are the very definition of post peak and we're still minus a forward. Far too soon to be suggesting we have the strongest squad in the division.


I know we ain't signed them yet but if we do then i don't see anyone who has a (probably should have said clearly) stronger squad. All squads in this division are weak.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 12, 2022, 12:00:49 PM

I know we ain't signed them yet but if we do then i don't see anyone who has a (probably should have said clearly) stronger squad. All squads in this division are weak.

I suspect a number of clubs in this division would kill for the resources at the disposal of Norwich, Watford, Burnley, Middlesbrough, Sheffield United, Stoke (yes Stoke) and dare I say ourselves.

While we would all strive to improve none of the clubs mentioned above have weak squads for the level we find ourselves at. Apologies to other squads for failing to give them a mention.

I agree squads in this division could be described as weak in relation to the Premier League. But there's a reason why the Championship is considered tough to get out of, it's generally competitive as opposed to being weak.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 12, 2022, 12:23:19 PM
I suspect a number of clubs in this division would kill for the resources at the disposal of Norwich, Watford, Burnley, Middlesbrough, Sheffield United, Stoke (yes Stoke) and dare I say ourselves.

While we would all strive to improve none of the clubs mentioned above have weak squads for the level we find ourselves at. Apologies to other squads for failing to give them a mention.

I agree squads in this division could be described as weak in relation to the Premier League. But there's a reason why the Championship is considered tough to get out of, it's generally competitive as opposed to being weak.


All about opinions Dan but no team impresses me in this division. No one is like last seasons Fulham.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 12, 2022, 02:06:25 PM
Having no Fulham in our division this year doesn't make it any easier for us to beat the rest. You've stated we have the best squad in this division when only recently people were tripping over themselves to suggest it wasn't good enough to make top six and neither was our manager.

You've gone on to state 'all squads in this division are weak' (but not ours presumably unless it's the best of a bad bunch  ;D ) when they're very clearly not all weak, if they were we'd be sitting pretty at the top of the division with no need to sign out of contract players either in or approaching their thirties.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 12, 2022, 02:26:04 PM
Having no Fulham in our division this year doesn't make it any easier for us to beat the rest. You've stated we have the best squad in this division when only recently people were tripping over themselves to suggest it wasn't good enough to make top six and neither was our manager.

You've gone on to state 'all squads in this division are weak' (but not ours presumably unless it's the best of a bad bunch  ;D ) when they're very clearly not all weak, if they were we'd be sitting pretty at the top of the division with no need to sign out of contract players either in or approaching their thirties.

No, our squad isn't great but it's no worse than any other sides you mentioned
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 12, 2022, 02:41:10 PM
No, our squad isn't great but it's no worse than any other sides you mentioned

At 17:23:34 yesterday you stated there was no superior squad to our own in this division. Now it's not great but it's no worse than the others I've previously mentioned as having resources some in this division would die for. That's some impact the addition of Tom Rogic has made  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 12, 2022, 02:43:09 PM
At 17:23:34 yesterday you stated there was no superior squad to our own in this division. Now it's not great but it's no worse than the others I've previously mentioned as having resources some in this division would die for. That's some impact the addition of Tom Rogic has made  ;D .

I don't believe their is a superior squad, that doesn't mean we are better than everyone else. It means i view us on a par with your top teams


Edit - Add a decent CF in Jan and i'll reconsider
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on September 12, 2022, 05:48:06 PM
Rogic is welcome squad depth but I don't think he moves the dial unless Bruce is going to play a 3 man midfield of Yokuslu Swift and Rogic. I don't think Bruce will.

The age profile of the squad is starting to drift towards the post prime age range although there will be further exits next season. but this will only impact the balance of the squad if younger players are recruited or breakthrough from the academy.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 12, 2022, 10:41:57 PM
Given that teams are now allowed 5 subs having more mature players might work, I suppose, if they come on and run around for one half each.  For example, Rogic/Swift or Swift/Rogic?

Phillips/Somebody anyone?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 12, 2022, 11:02:28 PM
Not sure how many more 45 minutes of running around Phillips has left in the tank to be honest. Here's hoping for an Indian summer over the rest of his time with us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on September 13, 2022, 12:58:35 PM
Not sure how many more 45 minutes of running around Phillips has left in the tank to be honest. Here's hoping for an Indian summer over the rest of his time with us.

Now who is the optimist?? 8)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2022, 02:14:02 PM
General club fitness update from OS:

Steve Bruce has offered an update on the fitness of five Albion players.

Bruce spoke about the physical condition of new signings Martin Kelly and Tom Rogic, as well as the rehabilitation progress of Semi Ajayi, Kean Bryan and Daryl Dike.

The boss said: “It’s a really important time for us with players getting closer to fitness and the international break coming up.

“We need to get players up to speed, looking at those who’ve recently joined and those who’ve not had as many minutes as they would’ve liked.

“It’s clear we need to work with Tom Rogic to get him match-fit. He’s done a little bit but we need to make sure he’s ready before he plays in any games. We always knew that would be the case.

“We need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible. He’ll start, really, after the international break.

“In terms of his quality, you don’t play as many games as he did and win as many trophies as he did for a club like Celtic if you haven’t got anything about you.

“We’re delighted to have got him. At the start of the window we didn’t think it would be possible, but towards the end of it became a little bit more possible. Him coming in is terrific for us.

“Martin Kelly will probably take a couple of weeks to get up to speed because he’s been out of it for a little while.

“Semi has had an operation. We’ve listened to specialists and they’ve advised us that was the best thing to do going forward. We’re expecting him to be about another six weeks but these things can change.

“Kean Bryan is making good progress. He’s probably going to be out on the grass and starting to join in with us in the next week or so.

“That’s good news and there’s a bit of light at the end of the tunnel for him after what’s been a difficult time.

“Daryl Dike is on schedule in terms of what we’ve been expecting. We’re still expecting him to be a few weeks yet owing to the severity of his muscle injury, but he’s on course, which is good.”
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
Sounds like Dike and Kelly back in a few weeks, everyone else around WC time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OldburyWBA on September 13, 2022, 06:01:21 PM
Sounds like Dike and Kelly back in a few weeks, everyone else around WC time.

Thats why a striker was never going to turn up despite all the rumours, they're waiting for him to regain fitness and when he does we'll have 3 to choose from. Dike/ Grant alternating and Thomas-Asante coming off the benc, Lets hope it doesn't backfire and we get another long term injury to one of them.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 13, 2022, 06:02:49 PM
Thats why a striker was never going to turn up despite all the rumours, they're waiting for him to regain fitness and when he does we'll have 3 to choose from. Dike/ Grant alternating and Thomas-Asante coming off the benc, Lets hope it doesn't backfire and we get another long term injury to one of them.

True, plus Zohore is fit enough to be named on the bench as things stand. Possible he's injured himself in the 10 days since the last game however  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on September 15, 2022, 08:54:44 AM
 Bruce sets us up to not lose. We haven't any winning plan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Groovephil on September 15, 2022, 09:00:37 AM
Bruce is by far the least tactical and technical manager we’ve had in 20 years.

I would love to see his game prep on opposition sides, I doubt a thing is done.

He basically has plan A which will only ever involve changes in personal, it will never involve positional change and change of direction in certain phases of the pitch.

He’s a football dinosaur like so many who have wondered through the Jurassic Park of Albion in the last few years.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 15, 2022, 09:24:31 AM
Our defence is a shambles, that is the problem this season and has cost us a lot of points already. Dara O’Shea can do no wrong as a academy player but so far his form has been far below what is required, as has the rest of the back four. Conceding so many goals and chasing games all the time leaves us without a platform. The players have to tighten up.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 18, 2022, 11:25:16 PM
Going to drag this back up. System is obviously not working we arent getting bodies into the box and when we do we balloon crosses well over them. Think its time for 3142.

                  Palmer
      Oshea Kelly Pieters
                  Okay
Wallace TGH Swift Diangana
               BTA Grant

Obviously Ajayi gets in back line for pace long term. You could argue that some games we move the one in behind strikers and take okay out and try Rogic or push swift on
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 18, 2022, 11:53:27 PM
Going to drag this back up. System is obviously not working we arent getting bodies into the box and when we do we balloon crosses well over them. Think its time for 3142.

                  Palmer
      Oshea Kelly Pieters
                  Okay
Wallace TGH Swift Diangana
               BTA Grant

Obviously Ajayi gets in back line for pace long term. You could argue that some games we move the one in behind strikers and take okay out and try Rogic or push swift on

The problem with that set-up is three very slow central defenders without any protection down the wings. Would be destroyed off the ball IMV and get picked apart as soon as we pushed up the pitch. Should be playing with a back four and Okay covering them. We also need Dike back to partner Grant up front.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 18, 2022, 11:57:03 PM
Stick furlong at the back until Ajayi fit.
We have too many defenders on the pitch and still concede and arent really creating. We have to try something different its either this or a flat 442. Or we stick with 1 up top and wallaxe and reach play wingbacks....
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 19, 2022, 12:11:56 AM
4-5-1, 3-5-1-1 and all other systems with nobody in the box and only one striker on the pitch isn't working. I would be playing:

Palmer
Furlong, Bartley, Kelly, Pieters
Wallace, TGH, Okay, Grady
Grant & Cleary

I don't rate Furlong at all but we need some pace in the defence and he can get up and down from right back. Barley has had pelters on here but is still a defender with a pedigree above the current bunch playing and actually knows how to attack a corner. The other three are all solid defenders are better than O'Shea IMV who is brittle as anything. Townsend has been awful and should have been dropped a long time ago. I would replace Kelly with Ajayi when he is back fit.

TGH should be first name on team sheet and about time we trusted Okay to play alongside him in a settled side. Molumby and Livermore are not up to scratch. One is limited, the other a footballing OAP. Wallace and Grady are obvious selections out wide.

Then if we want to go more defensive and counter-attack away in certain games then take one of the strikers out and put Swift or Rogic in the hole.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 19, 2022, 06:04:40 AM
The squad was built to play 4231/433 and, with our better performances coming earlier in the season playing a 4231, I'd go back to that.

We are very focused on attacking down the flanks which I believe is the by product of having no ball progressing central midfielder or a real presence up top. I also put this down to coaching which is the difference I hope a new manager can bring to us.

I think I'd look to go with this:

Palmer

Furlong
Kelly
O'Shea
Townsend

Gardner-Hickman
Yokuslu

Wallace
Swift
Diangana

Thomas-Asante

I'd be conscious of not leaving Yokuslu exposed so would ask Gardner-Hickman to be more disciplined or try and tuck a full back in there with him when we are on the ball. I think we need someone close to our striker as none of them can occupy a defence and truly lead the line on their own. I'd also consider inverting our wide players if we continued to be a get it wide and cross it team to hopefully force them inside and mean we are a threat more centrally.

We weren't useless in the first 9-10 games, we just needed some tweaking tactically and personnel wise, Palmer in for Button is already an upgrade .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on October 19, 2022, 04:19:12 PM
The problem with all these (3) centre backs is that we are short of players coming through the midfield. I've noticed, also last night, there were sometimes 4 of our players in a cluster inside our own half just passing it amongst themselves. That's a waste and too much of a luxury. They think and are probably under instructions to stay deep, because they are defenders.

We need more players moving the ball and themselves forward through the midfield. At the moment the ball is either being funnelled out wide to the flanks, or it is hoofed long.

If we had one less centre back, we can have one more attacking player in the midfield.  We are fully reliant on a couple of midfielders to do all the work. When two of those midfielders include Livermore and Molumby, its no wonder we've got problems in the build up. TGH certainly needs to be one of those midfielders, as his passing is much better and he can carry the ball forward.

I still think Swift is a key player. He is creative and can set up chances from behind or alongside the forwards, but he musn't be by-passed. He needs passes coming through from behind. 

That's why I think we need to pass the ball through the midfield. It also needs to be done at a brisk tempo, as the slower it is with more sideways passes, the more time the opposition have to re-group. I Hope the next manager is able to see that. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on October 20, 2022, 08:05:46 AM
The problem with all these (3) centre backs is that we are short of players coming through the midfield. I've noticed, also last night, there were sometimes 4 of our players in a cluster inside our own half just passing it amongst themselves. That's a waste and too much of a luxury. They think and are probably under instructions to stay deep, because they are defenders.

We need more players moving the ball and themselves forward through the midfield. At the moment the ball is either being funnelled out wide to the flanks, or it is hoofed long.

If we had one less centre back, we can have one more attacking player in the midfield.  We are fully reliant on a couple of midfielders to do all the work. When two of those midfielders include Livermore and Molumby, its no wonder we've got problems in the build up. TGH certainly needs to be one of those midfielders, as his passing is much better and he can carry the ball forward.

I still think Swift is a key player. He is creative and can set up chances from behind or alongside the forwards, but he musn't be by-passed. He needs passes coming through from behind. 

That's why I think we need to pass the ball through the midfield. It also needs to be done at a brisk tempo, as the slower it is with more sideways passes, the more time the opposition have to re-group. I Hope the next manager is able to see that.
All reasons we should have kept Kipre. He could play proper passes forward or advance with the ball before passing. Like you say it's better for the likes of Swift if he can get the ball when he wants it and is in space and he's shown he can create  and be a shooting threat himself.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 25, 2022, 11:27:15 PM
Looking forward to Standaman's breakdown of Corberan's tactical, systematic and personnel preferences and how it might fit with us
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 26, 2022, 09:57:10 AM
Well if Transfermarkt's anything to go by (no, not everything on Transfermarkt is 100% correct) his preferred formation is 4-3-3, but Huddersfield's formations during their first three games last season were 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 and 3-5-2 respectively.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 26, 2022, 02:34:42 PM
Corberan is a Beilsa disciple therefore we are getting a mini Belilsa well not quite.

Corberan is a little bit more pragmatic.  The last game he coached in England was the play-off final was a game where his main concern was countering the threat Forest posed it turned it into a bad game of football particularly after Forest took the lead but a bad game he lost by being if anything over cautious.

Yet nevertheless the style leans heavily on the Beilsa playbook. The key components are a high press and quick counters on transition. Where it differs from Valball is when not playing on the breakdown of play his teams build from the back and will recycle the ball through multiple phases of play.

In terms of shape he has used 4-3-3, 3-4-3,4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 3-5-2. However the basic shapes are a little misleading. There is a lot of positional flexibility in the game just because someone is a Centre Back does not mean they aren't going to pop up as the most advanced player in attack in the wide left channel.

All the shapes have some key characteristics.

1. The width comes from full back/wing back. It does not matter whether it is a back 3 or 4 these players play high and wide. Their average positions will be higher up the pitch than some of the midfielders.

2. When in possession in the back 4 set ups the deepest sitting midfielder will drop in between the Centre Backs to form a back 3.

3. The wide players play in the half spaces slightly behind the Centre Forward sometimes they are generally inverted but on occasion not (player availability?)

4. The press is pretty intense but sometimes his teams sit off a bit (e.g. the play-off final)

Does it fit what we have? No. Does the squad really lend itself to any style or formation without some significant gaps or slightly awkwardly fitting pieces? Also no.

The thing to note here is that regardless of coach there is a huge Dike sized gap at the front of this team. His return does not fix everything but it sure will help.

Goalkeeper

Other things being equal you would go with the keeper with the best distribution (important for both swift counters and playing out from the back) other things are not equal Button has been a bin fire so it's Palmer.

Full Backs/ Wing Backs.

Forget Kelly and Peters in this context. It's Furlong/ Phillips or Townsend/ Diangana. Corberan's wing backs are so attacking, maybe this is the point where Grady makes that switch.

Centre Backs

O'Shea, Kelly, Pieters, Bartley and Ajayi.

There is not a lot of recovery speed there which is a worry if we are playing a high line. Ajayi's return will help. The ball progression or rather lack of it is also a concern.

Centre Midfield

Molumby, Gardner-Hickman, Livermore and Yokuslu

Tough to see how this works. Molumby and Gardner Hickman as double 8 partnership has the energy required for the high press but ball progression questionable. Livermore or Yokuslu could play in front of a back 4 but that means we aren't playing with an out and out 10 (see below)

Attacking Midfielders

Swift and Rogic both bought in to play as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1. There are versions of Corberan’s system which might accommodate a 10 but otherwise they either drop deeper as into the 8 role or play as one of the slightly withdrawn wide forwards.

Wingers

Diangana, Wallace and Phillips

There aren’t wingers; they  either play as wing backs or wide forwards. Wallace playing more centrally from the right or inverted from the left works. We have been down this path with Diangana before and sadly it does not work.

Forwards

 
Grant, Thomas-Asante, Cleary and Dike.

Grant would fit as a wide forward but frankly is a liability in pretty much every aspect of his off the ball work. Thomas-Asante and Cleary are energetic and probably effective pressers but as for goal threat at the very least the jury is out. Dike is the very obvious solution to this issue.

If I was putting a team out to play the style I might go with something like

Palmer

Kelly
O’Shea
Pieters

Furlong
Molumby
Gardner-Hickman
Diangana


Swift
Wallace
Thomas-Assante

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: OhBilics on October 26, 2022, 03:24:19 PM
Wingers

Diangana, Wallace and Phillips

There aren’t wingers; they  either play as wing backs or wide forwards. Wallace playing more centrally from the right or inverted from the left works. We have been down this path with Diangana before and sadly it does not work.
When I found out CC was definitely coming I started wondering how our players would fare based on what little I knew of the way CC teams play, and Diangana was the one that stood out most to me as a bad fit, I'm sad to say.

Quote
If I was putting a team out to play the style I might go with something like

Palmer

Kelly
O’Shea
Pieters

Diangana

Molumby
Gardner-Hickman

Furlong

Swift
Wallace
Thomas-Assante
Has something gone wrong there? Are you suggesting Grady as a holding midfielder?! It would be a - let's say - "brave" experiment! I'm guessing something went wrong with the formatting?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on October 26, 2022, 03:28:00 PM
When I found out CC was definitely coming I started wondering how our players would fare based on what little I knew of the way CC teams play, and Diangana was the one that stood out most to me as a bad fit, I'm sad to say.
Has something gone wrong there? Are you suggesting Grady as a holding midfielder?! It would be a - let's say - "brave" experiment! I'm guessing something went wrong with the formatting?

Grady is left wing back in a 3-4-3 in what Stan has posted, although you would tend to put that as

Furlong
TGH
Molumby
Diangana
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 26, 2022, 05:26:40 PM
Yes sorry as per Markw's post yes should read

Furlong
TGH
Molumby
Diangana

Will edit original post 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 26, 2022, 07:56:47 PM
Corberan is a Beilsa disciple therefore we are getting a mini Belilsa well not quite.

Corberan is a little bit more pragmatic.  The last game he coached in England was the play-off final was a game where his main concern was countering the threat Forest posed it turned it into a bad game of football particularly after Forest took the lead but a bad game he lost by being if anything over cautious.

Yet nevertheless the style leans heavily on the Beilsa playbook. The key components are a high press and quick counters on transition. Where it differs from Valball is when not playing on the breakdown of play his teams build from the back and will recycle the ball through multiple phases of play.

In terms of shape he has used 4-3-3, 3-4-3,4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 3-5-2. However the basic shapes are a little misleading. There is a lot of positional flexibility in the game just because someone is a Centre Back does not mean they aren't going to pop up as the most advanced player in attack in the wide left channel.

All the shapes have some key characteristics.

1. The width comes from full back/wing back. It does not matter whether it is a back 3 or 4 these players play high and wide. Their average positions will be higher up the pitch than some of the midfielders.

2. When in possession in the back 4 set ups the deepest sitting midfielder will drop in between the Centre Backs to form a back 3.

3. The wide players play in the half spaces slightly behind the Centre Forward sometimes they are generally inverted but on occasion not (player availability?)

4. The press is pretty intense but sometimes his teams sit off a bit (e.g. the play-off final)

Does it fit what we have? No. Does the squad really lend itself to any style or formation without some significant gaps or slightly awkwardly fitting pieces? Also no.

The thing to note here is that regardless of coach there is a huge Dike sized gap at the front of this team. His return does not fix everything but it sure will help.

Goalkeeper

Other things being equal you would go with the keeper with the best distribution (important for both swift counters and playing out from the back) other things are not equal Button has been a bin fire so it's Palmer.

Full Backs/ Wing Backs.

Forget Kelly and Peters in this context. It's Furlong/ Phillips or Townsend/ Diangana. Corberan's wing backs are so attacking, maybe this is the point where Grady makes that switch.

Centre Backs

O'Shea, Kelly, Pieters, Bartley and Ajayi.

There is not a lot of recovery speed there which is a worry if we are playing a high line. Ajayi's return will help. The ball progression or rather lack of it is also a concern.

Centre Midfield

Molumby, Gardner-Hickman, Livermore and Yokuslu

Tough to see how this works. Molumby and Gardner Hickman as double 8 partnership has the energy required for the high press but ball progression questionable. Livermore or Yokuslu could play in front of a back 4 but that means we aren't playing with an out and out 10 (see below)

Attacking Midfielders

Swift and Rogic both bought in to play as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1. There are versions of Corberan’s system which might accommodate a 10 but otherwise they either drop deeper as into the 8 role or play as one of the slightly withdrawn wide forwards.

Wingers

Diangana, Wallace and Phillips

There aren’t wingers; they  either play as wing backs or wide forwards. Wallace playing more centrally from the right or inverted from the left works. We have been down this path with Diangana before and sadly it does not work.

Forwards

 
Grant, Thomas-Asante, Cleary and Dike.

Grant would fit as a wide forward but frankly is a liability in pretty much every aspect of his off the ball work. Thomas-Asante and Cleary are energetic and probably effective pressers but as for goal threat at the very least the jury is out. Dike is the very obvious solution to this issue.

If I was putting a team out to play the style I might go with something like

Palmer

Kelly
O’Shea
Pieters

Furlong
Molumby
Gardner-Hickman
Diangana


Swift
Wallace
Thomas-Assante

Thanks Stan!

I'm not sure that the high press you've described is true. Per fbref, Huddersfield had the fewest tackles in the final third last season.

Based on point 2 above, I can see this suiting Yokuslu. Off the ball, if we do press infrequently and remain compact this will also suit him, I think he could be reborn under Corberan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 26, 2022, 08:24:33 PM
...

Corberan is a little bit more pragmatic.  The last game he coached in England was the play-off final was a game where his main concern was countering the threat Forest posed it turned it into a bad game of football particularly after Forest took the lead but a bad game he lost by being if anything over cautious.

...


To my mind, the ref had decided that it was going to be Notts Forest.  His paymasters would regard them as more box office than the Terriers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 27, 2022, 08:27:04 AM
To my mind, the ref had decided that it was going to be Notts Forest.  His paymasters would regard them as more box office than the Terriers.

And to think VAR which was available for the final didn't overturn those decisions. Something was definitely rotten in Denmark that day in my opinion, and at Stockley Park and Wembley too for that matter.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 28, 2022, 09:06:08 AM
Looking at the training video it seemed that in defence he went to five at the back such that when the ball was on the left Townsend moved forward (to take on the threat? / to provide an out ball?) and the back line moved across with Phillips moving back on the right to counter any cross-field switch and vice versa when the attack came down the right.  We've certainly suffered from / been vulnerable to that type of ball this season.

How long will it take for CC to discover that MP is not capable of that sort of running back for more than half an hour?

To me if he is to have any sort of pressing game, he must include Molumby and TGH and put Swift at the centre of them.  I think Cleary has more potential than BTA but the latter might be preferred for his running.

It will be interesting to see how far he departs from the Bruce / Beale line-ups for the first game.  The temptation would be not to change too much.

PS: I still can't understand why CC has taken this on unless he has been fed a lot of dodgy promises by RG.  Let's face that is one of the latter's strengths.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on October 28, 2022, 03:18:08 PM
Looking at the training video it seemed that in defence he went to five at the back such that when the ball was on the left Townsend moved forward (to take on the threat? / to provide an out ball?) and the back line moved across with Phillips moving back on the right to counter any cross-field switch and vice versa when the attack came down the right.  We've certainly suffered from / been vulnerable to that type of ball this season.

How long will it take for CC to discover that MP is not capable of that sort of running back for more than half an hour?

To me if he is to have any sort of pressing game, he must include Molumby and TGH and put Swift at the centre of them.  I think Cleary has more potential than BTA but the latter might be preferred for his running.

It will be interesting to see how far he departs from the Bruce / Beale line-ups for the first game.  The temptation would be not to change too much.

PS: I still can't understand why CC has taken this on unless he has been fed a lot of dodgy promises by RG.  Let's face that is one of the latter's strengths.

From his presser it really doesn't sound that way at all. Sounds like he knows that he has what he has
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on October 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
It's a shame we don't have a better central midfield, as TGH probably suits a wide role in a Corberan system, atleast his academy experience was mainly in that position.

Phillips hasn't got the energy to play the role regularly, although he is worth 20 mins from the bench.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: CL3MO on October 29, 2022, 04:02:02 PM
I've seen enough over the last few weeks to suggest that the only way that we have any chance of picking up points - and I mean the odd draw at the moment, rather than an ambitious three points - is to set up with a deep, low block, and to bring back some kind of physicality to the team. With no obvious striker and threat up front, we must have pace in this system to carry a threat on the break.

4231

Palmer

Furlong
Bartley
Ajayi (when fit)
Pieters

Okay
TGH/Molumby

Wallace
Swift/TGH
Diangana

BTA

We have heard that CC can be pragmatic and play to the strengths in the squad - this is the only way I can see at the moment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on October 29, 2022, 05:40:53 PM
Considering we can’t get kipre back but griffiths and Taylor we hopefully can and Ajayi and dike hopefully fit after the World Cup it’s time to bomb most of these perennial underachievers for me
Let them know they are not good enough and not wanted so time for their agents to get them a move if they want to play
I’d be lining up something like this

                                               Griffiths

O shea.                    Ajayi.                       Taylor.            Ashworth

Wallace.                   TGH.           Yokuslu.     Molumby.   Diangana

                                                Dike

Subs Palmer. Kelly. Swift. Rogic. BTA. Cleary. Pieters.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on October 30, 2022, 12:06:19 AM
Its a case of getting as many of those with bad/weak attitudes out of the team as possible.

                         Palmer
 Ingram oshea pieters Ashworth
                       Okay
    Wallace TGH Swift Diangana
                      BTA

or if we going to persist with 352

                    Palmer
        Oshea Kelly Pieters
Wallace TGH molumby Reach
                   Swift
                BTA Cleary


My aim is to keep bad attitudes: bartley and Grant.
Mentally weak Townsend furlong Livermore Phillips away from team
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Brooklynbaggie on October 30, 2022, 05:16:54 AM
I think TGH and Molumby did themselves a lot of favours yesterday with their energy and movement, yes there were mistakes with passes etc but the more of the ball you have the more you’re likely to make. It’s the energy I think at times we miss.
I could even live with a centre forward who does have the same movement as the engine room providing they hit the net when the opportunity presents.
I could also live with a central defender with less movement providing they can read the game and are aware of what’s unfolding and organise and be a back line general.
(I do find it hard to accept so many professional footballers ball watching the leaving their men unmarked). Allowing runners to go through us won’t be going un-noticed by opposition.
Energy and giving easy options to pass to for our team mates is a must and if that means less experience and more youth with potential so be it.
I still maintain we have a good squad in there somewhere that could do well but as picked up yesterday by other posters, Mick Mc Carthy summed it up when he said some players may just have been here too long as too many managers with different ideas have not been able to get a tune out of this squad.
I personally hope CC rocks the boat, re-shapes our squad members as I worry that whoever is in charge and whatever formation is deployed not all of the current first team squad will make it work.
Confidence is down so let’s give some hungry younger players a chance and integrate them into the first team squad before the World Cup
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 30, 2022, 06:16:19 AM
I think yesterday gave us a slight insight into what Corberan would like to do, certainly with the team shape. He set us up in a 343 that could easily switch to a 4231 when in possession. Everything we have read is that he is adaptable tactically and being able to set up with a hybrid system certainly gives you that. The other switch in the system was the introduction of inverted wide players; if we are to have a Phillips down the right who likes to get to the byline and cross, having Wallace put there doing the same thing would not appear to be optimum, the change made sense from that side. Plus I think it's an approach aimed at getting our wide players closer to the centre forward, it didn't really have the desired effect but one that could be prosperous going forward.

In terms of personnel, the introduction of Furlong as a right sided centre back was new. It's something I've always thought we should try when we play a back three as Furlong doesn't have the requisite quality on the ball as a wing back and is good enough in the air to be a part of the back three. He will need to improve defensively in there but that could come with coaching as the side gets more settled.

I think the other personnel decision of note was to go with Grant up top. From what we know from his Huddersfield side, Corberan does prefer the ball to be played short and his wing/full backs to provide width, this was certainly the case down our right yesterday, which should enable to the wide players to get closer to the centre forward. I imagine therefore Grant was selected for his link up play although as we all know, Grant at centre forward is not a worthwhile exercise.

Tactically we didn't really have a defined style; we were not high pressing particularly, we didn't sit deep, we didn't really control possession (until we were 2-0 down) and we didn't focus on counter attacks or transitions. It was clear to me that Corberan has focused on the shape and how we might switch but not much else. I expect this will develop as he gets to know the squad and utilises the break that the World Cup provides.

Although none of them came off, there did appear to be some different approaches to attacking set plays which again, will take time to master. That was encouraging as Huddersfield had a good record from set plays last seasons.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: cads_ap_albion on October 30, 2022, 08:37:02 AM
We didn't press because we couldn't. Livermore in the middle did okay but it's just too slow.
Too many players look heavy build.

I watched Leeds last night and they worked so hard, but they looked like athletes. We didn't select players yesterday to press.

Moloumby & TGH in the middle together do have that energy but Ztgh Needs to be more aware around him and that will come.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on October 30, 2022, 09:23:57 AM
We didn't press because we couldn't.

My comment regards pressing wasn't a criticism, merely an observation. I agree with your sentiment about the squad not really setup to press.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: ttree30 on October 30, 2022, 09:35:35 AM
My comment regards pressing wasn't a criticism, merely an observation. I agree with your sentiment about the squad not really setup to press.

Does anyone have a clue what it really is set up for?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on October 30, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Okay things from yesterday

Shape 3-4-2-1 obviously did not work for a host of reasons and as soon as it didn't the bigger issues like the teams complete lack of confidence comes into play this means there is no movement and because there is no movement passing of any sort becomes difficult and progressive passing particularly so.

Carlos is a pragmatist and the thing that gets ditched from the playbook quickest is the press. If a team hasn't pressed previously it takes a lot of work on the training ground to get it up to speed an under cooked high press is particularly vulnerable (shades of Pepe Mel).

In any event it is debatable as to whether or not we have a squad even with a month of work on the training ground capable of a high press. The lack of recovery speed throughout the team is alarming we don't need a team of Olympic sprinters to play a high press but some pace is needed because if the initial press is broken then a team is through on goal before any of our players can get back into a defensive shield.

Carlos is not wedded to a particular shape. So it will be interesting to see if he sticks with the basic shape and shuffles the personnel or rips everything up an starts again.  However at some point we need a consistent shape and starting XI if we are to turn things around.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 10:43:37 AM
Squad is currently a weird mix of Bilic 'bath dippers', they have ability at this level but the weakest mentality i've ever seen at any club at any level. Add these to Bruces boys who are signed for 'experience' so former PL players on the way out that lack pace, add in some 'Dowling Dynamite' signings Zohore etc

This patchwork 'strategy' is further compounded by the ridiculous contracts the club give out, purely to save the club signing players, effectively putting the extended players into early retirement with their financial futures guaranteed, sucking any desire out of them in 1 swoop of a signature. For the club that means we are unable to move them on until they retire basically.

There is a lot of money becoming free at the end of the season potentially. Let's hope no one finishing their contract is re-signed and CC is allowed to use the money properly to sign younger players with ability and a desire to get back to the PL.

The WBA FC , nice and cosy retirement home must be closed and closed for good.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on October 30, 2022, 10:53:49 AM
The mix of players that fit no real shape or system is the biggest issue with this squad. That and the lack of youthful players in their early 20's.

Early question marks surround the likes of Grant, Diangana, Swift and Wallace and if any of them will fit Corboran's system going forward.

I'd suggest January might be a time for 1 or 2 very bold, brave and potentially unpopular decisions. A player like Diangana or Swift might slot into a different system with a confident side and thrive. Clubs like QPR, Blackburn and Swansea are possibly going to enter the winter window with a genuine chance of automatic promotion and might roll the dice. If we could shift players like Diangana or Swift who have big wages and could fetch a tidy fee then I'd seriously consider it to raise funds for players who do fit Corberan's system. Look at Tyrone Mings and even Grady Diangana here, clubs will spend over the odds to buy players who help get them promotion and its a great way to get good money for unwanted players. I wouldn't blame the club if they made a big call like that in January.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 30, 2022, 11:09:02 AM
Squad is currently a weird mix of Bilic 'bath dippers', they have ability at this level but the weakest mentality i've ever seen at any club at any level. Add these to Bruces boys who are signed for 'experience' so former PL players on the way out that lack pace, add in some 'Dowling Dynamite' signings Zohore etc [/b]

This patchwork 'strategy' is further compounded by the ridiculous contracts the club give out, purely to save the club signing players, effectively putting the extended players into early retirement with their financial futures guaranteed, sucking any desire out of them in 1 swoop of a signature. For the club that means we are unable to move them on until they retire basically.


There is a lot of money becoming free at the end of the season potentially. Let's hope no one finishing their contract is re-signed and CC is allowed to use the money properly to sign younger players with ability and a desire to get back to the PL.

The WBA FC , nice and cosy retirement home must be closed and closed for good.

Gaz', does this mean we can finally agree our squad may not be as 'superior' as you suggested some time ago when I pointed out a lot of the things you've just posted  ;D  ;) ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 11:12:46 AM
Gaz', does this mean we can finally agree our squad may not be as 'superior' as you suggested some time ago when I pointed out a lot of the things you've just posted  ;D  ;) ?

No because I'm saying they have ability but it's more a collection of individuals than a proper team. On 'paper' it's still in the top 6 for me. Its putting the jigsaw together that's the issue. I'm saying we are suffering from poor leadership from above the players mainly
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 30, 2022, 11:26:13 AM
No because I'm saying they have ability but it's more a collection of individuals than a proper team. On 'paper' it's still in the top 6 for me. Its putting the jigsaw together that's the issue. I'm saying we are suffering from poor leadership from above the players mainly

The quoted post and our performances to date suggest otherwise Gaz'. It's no good being able to put a ball on a sixpence if you haven't got the cojonas to do it.

Some of them have the requisite ability, a lot of them simply don't have the heart to make use of it or are way past their use by date. All things you yourself have posted. Just  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 11:28:14 AM
The quoted post and our performances to date suggest otherwise Gaz'. It's no good being able to put a ball on a sixpence if you haven't got the cojonas to do it.

Some of them have the requisite ability, a lot of them simply don't have the heart to make use of it or are way past their use by date. All things you yourself have posted. Just  ;D .

I agree they are mentally weak and give up, i've never said otherwise. It can be changed although if the club continues as it has for the last 6 years, in a lazy, sloppily way it becomes much harder.

I did intend to add a groan about Lai at the end of my post but i'm bored of moaning about him, 6 years later and here we are. So this is my moan now  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on October 30, 2022, 11:32:48 AM
Squad is currently a weird mix of Bilic 'bath dippers', they have ability at this level but the weakest mentality i've ever seen at any club at any level. Add these to Bruces boys who are signed for 'experience' so former PL players on the way out that lack pace, add in some 'Dowling Dynamite' signings Zohore etc

This patchwork 'strategy' is further compounded by the ridiculous contracts the club give out, purely to save the club signing players, effectively putting the extended players into early retirement with their financial futures guaranteed, sucking any desire out of them in 1 swoop of a signature. For the club that means we are unable to move them on until they retire basically.

There is a lot of money becoming free at the end of the season potentially. Let's hope no one finishing their contract is re-signed and CC is allowed to use the money properly to sign younger players with ability and a desire to get back to the PL.

The WBA FC , nice and cosy retirement home must be closed and closed for good.

If I'm right, it's the Phillips one that sticks in your craw.

Didn't he impress Val & he arranged that?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 11:39:43 AM
If I'm right, it's the Phillips one that sticks in your craw.

Didn't he impress Val & he arranged that?

Not just one player John. I'm sick of the people in power more than anything. The players are just signing deals they should not be offered. I don't blame the players for signing them but i'm also looking forward to the day a lot of these players who have been here for years are gone. A lot go at the end of this season thankfully.

Giving Phillips 3 years at 30 years old was particularly stupid even by our standards though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on October 30, 2022, 12:16:04 PM
Not just one player John. I'm sick of the people in power more than anything. The players are just signing deals they should not be offered. I don't blame the players for signing them but i'm also looking forward to the day a lot of these players who have been here for years are gone. A lot go at the end of this season thankfully.

Giving Phillips 3 years at 30 years old was particularly stupid even by our standards though.

I think that's the idea of this much maligned board, it needs someone to ask "Are you sure?"
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 12:22:35 PM
I think that's the idea of this much maligned board, it needs someone to ask "Are you sure?"

I agree. It needs someone who is paying attention and has some clue of what is a good idea or not in footballing terms on top of simply balancing a spread sheet.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 30, 2022, 12:30:49 PM
I think that's the idea of this much maligned board, it needs someone to ask "Are you sure?"

I wonder whether the people who were already at the club, such as our current CEO for instance, actually got around to asking that very question or whether they just 'observed' what was going on and gave someone 'enough rope' so to speak? For legal reasons I am not for one moment suggesting this was actually what happened of course. But in all honesty I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that's precisely what happened either.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gerry m on October 30, 2022, 12:32:19 PM
Not just one player John. I'm sick of the people in power more than anything. The players are just signing deals they should not be offered. I don't blame the players for signing them but i'm also looking forward to the day a lot of these players who have been here for years are gone. A lot go at the end of this season thankfully.

Giving Phillips 3 years at 30 years old was particularly stupid even by our standards though.

To be honest gazberg no club would have wanted him so you can't blame him for signing. Nice easy money. This will be his last club.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on October 30, 2022, 12:53:17 PM
I wonder whether the people who were already at the club, such as our current CEO for instance, actually got around to asking that very question or whether they just 'observed' what was going on and gave someone 'enough rope' so to speak? For legal reasons I am not for one moment suggesting this was actually what happened of course. But in all honesty I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that's precisely what happened either.

With a cynical hat on, that's a distinct possibilty.

On the other hand Managers manage & Advisors advise.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 30, 2022, 02:03:17 PM
With a cynical hat on, that's a distinct possibilty.

On the other hand Managers manage & Advisors advise.

As I've previously stated I attended a supporters meeting where Ron Gourlay was in attendance during his initial open communications phase as CEO. Out of respect for the supporters club in question I won't name it and I won't repeat my exact wording or his exact reply.

However, I asked Ron point blank what his input and advice was when a number of squad members were handed contract extensions while he was 'observing' all things Albion last summer. It would be fair to say two things.

Firstly Ron doesn't like being questioned directly by people with no boardroom experience (me). If so fair enough but he needs to remember effective communications are not a one way endeavor. Secondly, Ron's reply was non committal at best. Twice over.

As a final point I don't  think either of us were left with a favourable impression of the other during what amounted to a charm offensive on his behalf. That doesn't mean he can't do his job and I wouldn't suggest such either as I don't have 'a wealth of footballing knowledge' to back up such an opinion.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on October 30, 2022, 02:06:40 PM
As I've previously stated I attended a supporters meeting where Ron Gourlay was in attendance during his initial open communications phase as CEO. Out of respect for the supporters club in question I won't name it and I won't repeat my exact wording or his exact reply.

However, I asked Ron point blank what his input and advice was when a number of squad members were handed contract extensions while he was 'observing' all things Albion last summer. It would be fair to say two things.

Firstly Ron doesn't like being questioned directly by people with no boardroom experience (me). If so fair enough but he needs to remember effective communications are not a one way endeavor. Secondly, Ron's reply was non committal at best. Twice over.

As a final point I don't  think either of us were left with a favourable impression of the other during what amounted to a charm offensive on his behalf. That doesn't mean he can't do his job and I wouldn't suggest such either as I don't have 'a wealth of footballing knowledge' to back up such an opinion.

It's the way you tell them  :)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 30, 2022, 02:36:20 PM
To be honest gazberg no club would have wanted him so you can't blame him for signing. Nice easy money. This will be his last club.


I fully agree. No club signs the unwanted as much as we do. We do it because it's easy. No one stops to think why should we offer them new deals? Who else wants them? (the answer to this is no one and generally good enough reason to halt proceedings alone!)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tegga on October 30, 2022, 05:00:40 PM
Watching the highlights today of their first goal, initially both Sheffield Utd forwards are marked up. When the ball goes to the far post, the defensive line moves over to left, just like they were been coached in the video released on the official site. The problem was though that O'Shea and Furlong left the forwards they were marking free! Not sure if Phillips was to get back aswell, but he didn't. When the ball was pulled back both strikers were free, and of course the one Furlong left free scored.

Not saying they were coached to do that, it's just an observation.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DevonInStripes on October 31, 2022, 12:59:22 AM
The truth is we have the worst performing squad in the Championship according to the league table and that is the only table that matters . Unless the common denominators of our terminal decline are removed en bloc from the starting line up then it’s League One here we come !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on October 31, 2022, 08:43:09 AM
Watching the highlights today of their first goal, initially both Sheffield Utd forwards are marked up. When the ball goes to the far post, the defensive line moves over to left, just like they were been coached in the video released on the official site. The problem was though that O'Shea and Furlong left the forwards they were marking free! Not sure if Phillips was to get back aswell, but he didn't. When the ball was pulled back both strikers were free, and of course the one Furlong left free scored.

Not saying they were coached to do that, it's just an observation.

Yes he was.  this what I saw of the training video, as the defence moved across to the threat, the wing back on the other side was mean to fill in to prevent the opposition switching the point of attack. 

We all know and maybe Corberan now knows that there are certain players that are beyond coaching.  they fall into the following categories:

a.  The hard-wired, frozen brained category.  Players in this category cannot change the way they play.  You can coach them on the training ground but when it comes to a match their ingrained responses kick-in. 

b.  The, if I do that I'll be knackered for the rest of the game so I'll preserve my energy, category. Steve never minded as long as I did a few tricks at the other end.

c.  The damned if I will, I know best category.  These players have probably been with the club awhile and seen managers come and go with their "fancy dan" tactics.   These players often have undeserved influence in the squad.

The club's problem is that several players fall into more than one of the above categories.  Thus, here we sit at the bottom of the league.   Corberan needs to recognise this.  By judicious placement and very sparing use, he might get something out of the first two categories, but it won't work with those in c.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on October 31, 2022, 10:51:54 AM
.......a.  The hard-wired, frozen brained category.  Players in this category cannot change the way they play.  You can coach them on the training ground but when it comes to a match their ingrained responses kick-in........

Reads like a recruitment spec' memo for the Stalking and Monitoring Departments  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on October 31, 2022, 12:27:41 PM
To show how badly our recruitment has been, I thought I would try to work out of the players available who would be our best back four.

I would go for O'shea (RB), Bartley (CB), Kelly (CB) Pieters (LB)

Its very worrying that our best defence still has to include Bartley and this back four would have no pace centrally, so would have to stay just in front of our own box leaving a lot of space for the our midfield to cover.

Not saying he is the answer but we desperatley need Ajayi back to provide some pace centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 31, 2022, 02:01:36 PM
To show how badly our recruitment has been, I thought I would try to work out of the players available who would be our best back four.

I would go for O'shea (RB), Bartley (CB), Kelly (CB) Pieters (LB)

Its very worrying that our best defence still has to include Bartley and this back four would have no pace centrally, so would have to stay just in front of our own box leaving a lot of space for the our midfield to cover.

Not saying he is the answer but we desperatley need Ajayi back to provide some pace centrally.

Agree with this but I think a fit Ajayi plays alongside Bartley and then it is 50/50 between Furlong & O'Shea at right back.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on October 31, 2022, 03:48:59 PM
From Brum Mail today. CC has said the 3 injured are in last phases of re-joining squad and if they progress without any further setback then Ajayi, Dike and Bryan will all be fit before the world cup and some of them should be able to take part in at least 1 game before the break.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on October 31, 2022, 05:12:00 PM
What stands out for me in the last few games, is the lack of goals. For all the criticism of Grant (and regular readers will know I've had my share), he does need help with scoring.
Who else finds the net regularly? Wallace, Swift and Diangana are probably as close we have to other natural scorers, but between them, they've only mustered 8 goals.   

The midfield generally have to score more, like happens at most other clubs. Livermore has only scored once, Molumby and Yokuslu not at all. TGH has scored once, but he's just come into the team. Molumby has only scored once since he's been at the club. That is not good enough. I'm not having it, as is sometimes said, they have other jobs to do besides scoring. We don't have the luxury of finding excuses for non scorers.  I think the problem has been two-fold. 1. They hardly ever get themselvs forward into shooting positions, and 2) they have poor, inaccurate shooting techniques.
I hope that's something CC is going to work on.   
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on October 31, 2022, 06:57:55 PM
What stands out for me in the last few games, is the lack of goals. For all the criticism of Grant (and regular readers will know I've had my share), he does need help with scoring.
Who else finds the net regularly? Wallace, Swift and Diangana are probably as close we have to other natural scorers, but between them, they've only mustered 8 goals. 


The midfield generally have to score more, like happens at most other clubs. Livermore has only scored once, Molumby and Yokuslu not at all. TGH has scored once, but he's just come into the team. Molumby has only scored once since he's been at the club. That is not good enough. I'm not having it, as is sometimes said, they have other jobs to do besides scoring. We don't have the luxury of finding excuses for non scorers.  I think the problem has been two-fold. 1. They hardly ever get themselvs forward into shooting positions, and 2) they have poor, inaccurate shooting techniques.
I hope that's something CC is going to work on.

Spot-on, the only other player capable of a goal or assist was Robinson and the board sold him as part of their successful running the club down into oblivion strategy. Another reason why TGH picks himself in midfield.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 02, 2022, 09:26:24 AM
Personnel wise i was just having a nose on Capology and some of the verified wages we are paying are nuts if remotely true. Adam Reach wage is insane but they do say it's not verified by themselves.

6 players contracts expiring end of season thankfully, will give us a lot of headroom for next year. Does anyone here have the brains to use it wisely though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on November 02, 2022, 12:03:34 PM
Personnel wise i was just having a nose on Capology and some of the verified wages we are paying are nuts if remotely true. Adam Reach wage is insane but they do say it's not verified by themselves.

6 players contracts expiring end of season thankfully, will give us a lot of headroom for next year. Does anyone here have the brains to use it wisely though.

Just had a look at Capology, Gaz, it looks as though it's another one of these American databases. With the amount of global leagues covered, I have serious doubts that they have been able to verify most of the data.

For example, they have claimed that livermore is on £45k per week, with Reach on £40k per week. They have also claimed that DoS is on around £4k per week with Blackburn's Bradley Dack also on around £4k per week.

If the Reach one is correct, (he was allegedly on £20k per week at SW), we are paying him more than he's ever earned before in his pro career, we might be mad, but I don't think we're that mad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 02, 2022, 12:12:34 PM
Just had a look at Capology, Gaz, it looks as though it's another one of these American databases. With the amount of global leagues covered, I have serious doubts that they have been able to verify most of the data.

For example, they have claimed that livermore is on £45k per week, with Reach on £40k per week. They have also claimed that DoS is on around £4k per week with Blackburn's Bradley Dack also on around £4k per week.

If the Reach one is correct, (he was allegedly on £20k per week at SW), we are paying him more than he's ever earned before in his pro career, we might be mad, but I don't think we're that mad.


DOS new deal would definitely be not  4/5k per week i agree. Reach salary does say not verified in fairness, i'm sure i read somewhere on here that Reach got silly weekly wages rather than an upfront signing on fee, total speculation of course but it has been said. The rest of the verified wages look around what i would expect not taking into account flex downs.


It has been said on here (by Dan) i believe that Livermore is on more than we thought although again, that capology figure would show not his flexdown salary.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on November 02, 2022, 04:35:27 PM
Having the ability to release:
Reach, livermore, bartley, pieters, bryan and Zohore will save us in excess of 100k a week....i wonder as they all have less tban a year if anybody will come in January???

And really provide CC a chance to make some additions.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 02, 2022, 04:36:28 PM
Having the ability to release:
Reach, livermore, bartley, pieters, bryan and Zohore will save us in excess of 100k a week....i wonder as they all have less tban a year if anybody will come in January???

And really provide CC a chance to make some additions.


Reach is here till end of 2024 sadly. Rogic is up at end of 2023 although there is some option potential i believe.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on November 02, 2022, 04:39:01 PM

Reach is here till end of 2024 sadly. Rogic is up at end of 2023 although there is some option potential i believe.

Rogic signed one year with an option of a further year.

https://www.wba.co.uk/news/australia-international-tom-rogic-joins-albion
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 02, 2022, 04:40:50 PM
Rogic signed one year with an option of a further year.

https://www.wba.co.uk/news/australia-international-tom-rogic-joins-albion


Thanks, so he can be released if things don't go well.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on November 02, 2022, 05:41:22 PM
Having the ability to release:
Reach, livermore, bartley, pieters, bryan and Zohore will save us in excess of 100k a week....i wonder as they all have less tban a year if anybody will come in January???

And really provide CC a chance to make some additions.
I'd be astonished if none of those get an extension tbh
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tlms-p23 on November 02, 2022, 06:02:08 PM
I'd be astonished if none of those get an extension tbh

Bartley, Livermore and Phillips given 2 or 3 year extensions on the back of relegation when Gourlay was a club advisor. He was evasive when asked about it during CC's unveiling. If he was dim enough to do it once...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on November 02, 2022, 06:44:01 PM
Bartley, Livermore and Phillips given 2 or 3 year extensions on the back of relegation when Gourlay was a club advisor. He was evasive when asked about it during CC's unveiling. If he was dim enough to do it once...

Your argument would be valid if any of the above players were not being picked, but they're all playing regularly.

Phillips & Livemore are probably at the end of their careers now at this level, so we should be looking for replacements.
You will have a case if they're not replaced in the summer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 05, 2022, 05:27:37 PM
1 game left and we will have a full squad to choose from and 4 weeks for CC to really impose his tactics on the squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on November 05, 2022, 05:49:14 PM
This has been a pointless topic for quite some time, but finally we actually have a system and some tactics !! There will be the odd blip along the way, but I have no doubt that we will see steady progress for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 10, 2022, 08:43:48 AM
Bartley, Livermore and Phillips given 2 or 3 year extensions on the back of relegation when Gourlay was a club advisor. He was evasive when asked about it during CC's unveiling. If he was dim enough to do it once...

Livermore signed a new four year deal in 2018 when Luke Dowling was here, long before RG rocked up. He triggered an appearance related one year extension last season which I believe was part of earlier said new four year deal.

I am hugely sceptical of RG but this is one thing which can't be laid at his feet. The only influence he could have had on this would have been to tell someone not to pick JL so as not to trigger the one year extension.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on November 10, 2022, 12:39:18 PM
Livermore signed a new four year deal in 2018 when Luke Dowling was here, long before RG rocked up. He triggered an appearance related one year extension last season which I believe was part of earlier said new four year deal.

I am hugely sceptical of RG but this is one thing which can't be laid at his feet. The only influence he could have had on this would have been to tell someone not to pick JL so as not to trigger the one year extension.

thats an interesting thought, if a manager is told not to play "x" because its a financial issue, is the manager then entitled to say deduct 3 points from my targets then as you are impacting my ability to achieve?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Fritzl Palace on November 10, 2022, 12:41:17 PM
thats an interesting thought, if a manager is told not to play "x" because its a financial issue, is the manager then entitled to say deduct 3 points from my targets then as you are impacting my ability to achieve?

If it was not playing JL, you would effectively be asking for more points to be added to the targets  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on November 10, 2022, 12:42:32 PM
If it was not playing JL, you would effectively be asking for more points to be added to the targets  ;D

Well done Fritzl. I just knew someone would make this comment and you won the race  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 11, 2022, 07:11:49 AM
1 game left and we will have a full squad to choose from and 4 weeks for CC to really impose his tactics on the squad.

Apart from Molumby and O'Shea who will be away with the Republic of Ireland for their November friendlies..........

https://www.wba.co.uk/news/irish-duo-called-november-squad

'Dara O’Shea and Jayson Molumby have both been called up to the Republic of Ireland squad for their November internationals.

Stephen Kenny’s team are set to play back-to-back friendly matches as they prepare for next year’s European Championship qualifying campaign.

They will face Norway at the Aviva Stadium on Thursday, November 17 (ko 7:45pm) before travelling to Malta on Sunday, November 20 (ko 7pm).

Good luck, lads!'

.......... wonder whether there's any others who'll be away.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on November 15, 2022, 09:55:08 AM
I think this thread needs reviving a bit.

If you look at most listings our formation for the last three games has generally been listed as 4231. However, when you look at the actual map of players individual average positions for those games, in all three John Swift has been our further forward player.

Okay Yokuslu is very deep only just in front of the two centre halves and in two of the three games Furlong has been furthest forward of the full backs.

It's notable how narrow our wide men have been at times as well. Against Blackpool they were infield to the point where you'd barely call them wide men. They kept the width far more against Stoke but we're narrower against QPR.

If I had to describe the formation Corboran is currently using  I'd probably describe it as 442. The wide men are the ones whose roles seem to vary more than anyone else's. Yokuslu's return to form having co-incided with him being asked to do what suits him, sitting infront of the CB's rather than asked to be more mobile. Its easy to see why Molumby has been used alongside him. While TGH is mobile enough, Molumby is like the Duracel bunny and he compliments Yokuslu.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on November 17, 2022, 06:11:11 PM
It will be interesting to see what Corberan does with the world cup break. Does he stick with the basic shape of 4-2-3-1 and refine it or does he go for something slightly different? At this point with 3 wins under his belt it would seem sensible to stick with 4-2-3-1.

On the basis of the Stoke game it is just tempting to suggest that the same XI is pushed out for the next 26 games and if that level of performance can be replicated then that should see us climb the league. However, this is unlikely and the return to fitness of Dike and Ajayi does give Corberan additional options.

Dike and Thomas-Asante can rotate in the lone striker role. The emergence of the latter as a genuine rotation option is a major boost.

The base shape is the same as Bruce. What has changed? Apart from the obvious in terms of application (new manager bounce??). Tactically the ball is progressed across the width of the pitch. Bruce always favoured the progression down the wings, and this inevitably resulted in a cross into the box. The increasing involvement of Swift is a direct consequence of this change.

The slightly perplexing revival of Matt Phillps as a left winger is an interesting tactical detail. Corberan’s opening fixture saw a 3-4-2-1 or maybe a 3-4-3. In this set up Diangana and Wallace were either inverted wingers or playing as a sort of double 10 both were inverted it did not seem to work for either player. The set-up has not been seen again.

Against Blackpool and Stoke, Phillips was played as an inverted left winger and Wallace reverted to what is probably his natural position as a right winger.  Diangana has only made one start (as a left winger) since the Sheffield United game.

The key is even in a back 4 Corberan wants his full backs to be progressive and to facilitate this the wide players need to drift inside. Wallace tends to do this to a degree even from the right but oddly enough did not look at home on the left.

We now seem to have returned to the question of what do we do with Grady? Too talented to be ignored but not effective enough to be indispensable. Not sure what the answer is here. Equally Grant limping out of the picture at this point might raise a question mark about his future role.

I am looking forward to seeing what happens next.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on November 18, 2022, 09:31:56 AM
I said in another post that I think Phillips is more tactically aware / consistent than Grady, which was needed in the early phases. 

In time if we can continue to improve, stop being such a push over and move more of the game to an opponents final third, I hope Grady comes in to his own again as a more capable game changer.  Inverted on the left and playing with more imphasis inside than going wide and getting crosses is how I think most fans would want grady played and his best position. It's also Grant's so I do hope Corberan already has the natural successor to Phillips (at this level at least), although we probably dont need both, but we shall see.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 18, 2022, 10:37:33 AM
I said in another post that I think Phillips is more tactically aware / consistent than Grady, which was needed in the early phases. 

In time if we can continue to improve, stop being such a push over and move more of the game to an opponents final third, I hope Grady comes in to his own again as a more capable game changer.  Inverted on the left and playing with more imphasis inside than going wide and getting crosses is how I think most fans would want grady played and his best position. It's also Grant's so I do hope Corberan already has the natural successor to Phillips (at this level at least), although we probably dont need both, but we shall see.

Sorry JC but I'm a little confused by your post. Given Grady Diangana is predominantly left footed if he plays the role of inverted winger he needs to play on the right which is where he played for West Ham for the most part and cut in from that side.

Playing on the left, where he's generally been more effective for us and brings him into competition with Karlan Grant, means he's more likely to cross the ball than Grant who cuts in on his right. I've probably missed something. That or you thought Diangana was right footed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: GrumpyBaggie on November 21, 2022, 10:04:43 PM
According to the official website "The Baggies will return to training on 21 November".

I can understand the poor tired little darlings being given a couple of days off - but a whole week off from the 4 weeks intensive training everyone seemed to think they were going to have is way over the top.

I trust that at least CC and his team have not wasted this time entirely???
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on November 21, 2022, 10:22:59 PM
According to the official website "The Baggies will return to training on 21 November".

I can understand the poor tired little darlings being given a couple of days off - but a whole week off from the 4 weeks intensive training everyone seemed to think they were going to have is way over the top.

I trust that at least CC and his team have not wasted this time entirely???

The lads looked like they were all having a good time on their individual holidays on Instagram. Hopefully they come back fully refreshed and up.for the 2nd half.of the season
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KnaveofAlbion on November 21, 2022, 11:43:02 PM
Carlos has earned my trust in his plans from his time at H'field and his time so far with us.

Whatever the boss wants is fine by me for now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on November 22, 2022, 09:09:46 AM
It's obviously a unique season with a 4 week break but higher concentration of games either side of that. I would have thought that 4 weeks of intense training without a reasonable break now would have increased chance of injuries/fatigue further down the line.
I also don't think you'll find many clubs not giving their players similar time off.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on November 22, 2022, 09:22:40 AM
O'Shea and Molumby being away with the RoI notwithstanding. They both appeared in the 1-2 defeat versus Norway this Sunday gone (Nov 20th). Dara played 90 mins plus stoppages and Jayson got 82 mins under his belt. Both were unused subs against Malta in their 0-1 away fixture against Malta on Nov 17th too so neither were available anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 25, 2022, 01:37:25 PM
Watching a clip of the Team training on the OS, I'm impressed by the structured nature of it all.  In an interview Swift said they didn't come off the field blowing but with lots of things to think about and tactical ideas that they haven't had previously.

Clearly the big lump never bothered with that sort of effort and probably never tried to assess the next opposition.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on November 25, 2022, 01:45:42 PM
According to the official website "The Baggies will return to training on 21 November".

I can understand the poor tired little darlings being given a couple of days off - but a whole week off from the 4 weeks intensive training everyone seemed to think they were going to have is way over the top.

I trust that at least CC and his team have not wasted this time entirely???

I don't have an issue with the holiday based on us winning the last three. Had we still been poor I might have thought differently but even then Corberan may well have decided a break was needed.

Allowing them a week off with the message they need to come back ready to work hard is the right thing to do for a group of modern footballers that have just won three on the spin. It will help Corberan earn their trust / respect and get the players on board, wanting to play for him.





 

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 12, 2022, 08:01:37 PM
Brum mail update on tonights 4 missing players:

Bartley - thigh, naughty dood said groin

Ajayi - shoulder injury from training

Diangana - Illness

Livermore - Dropped so could have a cover CB on bench in Kelly, not injured

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adamstv on December 12, 2022, 10:48:36 PM
Brum mail update on tonights 4 missing players:

Bartley - thigh, naughty dood said groin

Ajayi - shoulder injury from training

Diangana - Illness

Livermore - Dropped so could have a cover CB on bench in Kelly, not injured

Has he seen the light with Livermore? TGH and Rogic played
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 12, 2022, 10:51:41 PM
Has he seen the light with Livermore? TGH and Rogic played

JL is last pick CM for us now surely.

Hopefully he can get a move somewhere in Jan and end his career playing somewhere else.

Glad to see Kelly get some game tonight too. He was fairly solid before and suffered most from CC appointment.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Mikkyk on December 12, 2022, 10:56:57 PM
I wouldn't move anyone on in Jan unless we have a positional replacement
 
The schedule this season is going to be more packed than ever and with an aging squad there are likely to be a lot of injuries. We don't want to be left short in any position and I suspect everyone will get some game time over Xmas period.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Fritzl Palace on December 12, 2022, 11:17:19 PM
He’s a proper manager, it took him the one game against Sheffield United to see that Livermore offers nothing as a footballer. You won’t see much of him between now and the end of the season, thankfully
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 13, 2022, 06:25:08 AM
It's so much better isn't it. Corberan has tweaked a couple of key things that Bruce couldn't get right:

System - He has reverted to the system that the squad was built for, 4231.

Tactics - We defend a little deeper and with more men behind the ball than under Bruce, using a 442 out of possession. We are more focused on playing the ball between the lines centrally but also use the width when possible however, rather than go wide straight away, we will keep possession in the middle, draw the other team in and then switch it wide to a player in space. Corberan has also greatly improved our rest defence, when we lose the ball the defensive structure is there so we aren't just wide open.

Personnel - having a fit Rogic and Dike available makes a difference. By dropping the defence a little deeper, Bartley and Kelly become viable options again and O'Shea looks better. Livermore appears 4th choice in central midfield and of course crucially, Button is nowhere to be seen.

I am looking forward to seeing how Corberan approaches the challenge of different teams and different styles, he seems to be building an adaptable side, interested to see how we try and break down a defensive low block as we will no doubt encounter at The Hawthorns.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on December 13, 2022, 12:10:07 PM
It seems that the basic shape is set at 4-2-3-1 if there was going to be anything radically different emerge from the World Cup break then we might have seen it last night. Although the base formation will be tweaked in game as it was last night.

The issues are largely around personnel I don't think Corberan has yet had a fully fit squad to choose from so his go to XI is still yet to emerge. There is a core of the team which to a degree look like they are inked in most games (in some cases maybe because of the lack of a viable alternative) e.g. Palmer, Furlong, O'Shea, Wallace and Yokuslu. I suspect that Bartley who was only absent last night through injury would be in that group and maybe Phillips (both have done well for the manager to date). Thomas-Asante and Dike will rotate through games although Dike will get progressively more of the minutes.

Rogic has staked a claim to the 10 role and while both him and Swift played the last half hour last night it is difficult to see both of them on the pitch in the 4-2-3-1. The left side of the team is an issue. Townsend has had a poor season but there really isn't much of a viable alternative (Reach/Peters) and then there is Grant and Diangana who both seem to behind Phillips in the manager's thinking. Both are way too expensive to be left as squad depth and neither should be happy with a much reduced role in the side.

Unless there is a significant up turn in their fortunes I can only see their futures being resolved in a transfer window and I doubt that will be in January which will not see a radical reshaping of the squad.

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 13, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Looking at whoscored.com at the player positions we began with very much a 442 again last night. Swift on this occasion was marginally deeper than BTA but very close nevertheless. Wallace notably keeping the width far more than Phillips and unusually Yokuslu slightly more advanced in midfield than Molumby but as with Swift and BTA the difference was minimal.

Things obviously changed second half but once again the starting formation was much closer to 442 than 4231.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 14, 2022, 06:09:16 AM
Looking at whoscored.com at the player positions we began with very much a 442 again last night. Swift on this occasion was marginally deeper than BTA but very close nevertheless. Wallace notably keeping the width far more than Phillips and unusually Yokuslu slightly more advanced in midfield than Molumby but as with Swift and BTA the difference was minimal.

Things obviously changed second half but once again the starting formation was much closer to 442 than 4231.

I think that's mostly because we didn't have the ball or territory as off the ball we set up in a 442 with at least the two banks of 4 behind the ball.

Second half we had more if the ball, higher up so the 4231 was more easily defined. Big difference between 1st and 2nd half is that the full backs bombed on in the second, they stayed deep in that first half.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 14, 2022, 10:01:57 AM
I think that's mostly because we didn't have the ball or territory as off the ball we set up in a 442 with at least the two banks of 4 behind the ball.

Second half we had more if the ball, higher up so the 4231 was more easily defined. Big difference between 1st and 2nd half is that the full backs bombed on in the second, they stayed deep in that first half.

As Lord Megson once said you don't really attack in formations it's more about what you do off the ball.

Apart from in his first game Carlos has sent us out similarly each time so far.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BAGGIE5 on December 14, 2022, 11:06:45 AM
It seems that the basic shape is set at 4-2-3-1 if there was going to be anything radically different emerge from the World Cup break then we might have seen it last night. Although the base formation will be tweaked in game as it was last night.

The issues are largely around personnel I don't think Corberan has yet had a fully fit squad to choose from so his go to XI is still yet to emerge. There is a core of the team which to a degree look like they are inked in most games (in some cases maybe because of the lack of a viable alternative) e.g. Palmer, Furlong, O'Shea, Wallace and Yokuslu. I suspect that Bartley who was only absent last night through injury would be in that group and maybe Phillips (both have done well for the manager to date). Thomas-Asante and Dike will rotate through games although Dike will get progressively more of the minutes.

Rogic has staked a claim to the 10 role and while both him and Swift played the last half hour last night it is difficult to see both of them on the pitch in the 4-2-3-1. The left side of the team is an issue. Townsend has had a poor season but there really isn't much of a viable alternative (Reach/Peters) and then there is Grant and Diangana who both seem to behind Phillips in the manager's thinking. Both are way too expensive to be left as squad depth and neither should be happy with a much reduced role in the side.

Unless there is a significant up turn in their fortunes I can only see their futures being resolved in a transfer window and I doubt that will be in January which will not see a radical reshaping of the squad.

 



For me someone else has to play now instead of Townsend. Been poor for far too long and reach has been bombed out for far less. Townsend isnt great going either way. For me its time reach or pieters played.


Also lets get get fully behind the team on Saturday. Rotherham will make it difficult. Looking at there away performances, they sit in and make it difficult and have been successful in it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 14, 2022, 11:11:59 AM
... and then there is Grant and Diangana who both seem to behind Phillips in the manager's thinking. Both are way too expensive to be left as squad depth and neither should be happy with a much reduced role in the side.


I think Diangana would be useful to bring on as a sub after 60 mins; he will be effective as something different against a tiring defence.  Whether he would be happy with that role I don't know but with a conventional winger on the right we need some option similar on the left.

Nobody is mentioning Ajayi.  If CC has got more out of the rest of them, he can surely develop Semi? 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: halifax_baggie on December 17, 2022, 07:05:38 PM
Wish he could develop Phillips though, must be treated like Jake
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on December 17, 2022, 07:23:13 PM
Caught a glimpse of the first half on a stream. A clear plan to defend in a 4-4-2 but not sure we use that in attack - didn't see enough to know. Happy tha we have a modern manager using modern techniques, though I do wonder if using a 2 or 4 man press Vs their back 3 is the right choice.

Based on the results I'm happy to cede to Carlos' tactical acumen, though!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 21, 2022, 10:50:59 PM
Kelly and Livermore not getting a look in now under CC along with Zohore and Bartley/Bryan still to come back.

Hopefully we can move some of them on in the winter window to make room for some players that CC would prefer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:41 AM
Kelly and Livermore not getting a look in now under CC along with Zohore and Bartley/Bryan still to come back.

Hopefully we can move some of them on in the winter window to make room for some players that CC would prefer.

Hoping darren moore comes in for Livermore and we let him go on a free.  Bryan and Zohore i dont think we.will get shot of until summer. Is anybody stupid enough to take Zohore. All 3 can have free transfers for me.

I would listen to offers for reach, kelly and Grant too.
We need 2 full backs and another centre forward
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on December 22, 2022, 01:47:44 PM
Could be wrong but saw Ipswich are in for Zohore on six month loan with club paying majority of his wages .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 22, 2022, 01:50:03 PM
Hoping darren moore comes in for Livermore and we let him go on a free.  Bryan and Zohore i dont think we.will get shot of until summer. Is anybody stupid enough to take Zohore. All 3 can have free transfers for me.

I would listen to offers for reach, kelly and Grant too.
We need 2 full backs and another centre forward


I'd totally forgot about Adam Reach.  Reach, Zohore, Livermore and Kelly unable to break into squad. Got to be close to 100k per week wasted.



Could be wrong but saw Ipswich are in for Zohore on six month loan with club paying majority of his wages .


Someone else said this yesterday, is there a link to it?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 23, 2022, 04:46:34 PM
Looking at the player positions vs Coventry:

The four at the back was a genuine four. Yokuslu held the midfield with Rogic slightly ahead of him. Thomas-Asante and Swift were a front two but despite Corboran's post match complaints that our wide men were too deep, the map shows that Wallace was actually our furthest forward player with Phillips way too in field in a "ten" role.

It shows a regular theme under Carlos that we are playing with a two up top (albeit one a recognised number ten) but our wide men being very flexible in their positioning.

I like it, despite the result, I just think we got the midfield wrong.

Everyone keeps quoting us as 4231 including our local media, they are wrong, at some point the penny will drop hopefully.

It's generally 442 though you can argue at times Wallace makes a wide third forward with two more central forwards which can transform into a form of 433. Argentina played that way in the World Cup final with Di Maria wide left and Messi and Alvarez central.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 24, 2022, 05:58:33 AM
Formation is such a fluid thing, especially on the ball. Off the ball it is certainly 442. Corberan certainly does seem to like one of if not both the wide players picking the ball up more centrally, sucking the opposition in and then streaking in to the space made out wide.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 24, 2022, 02:16:02 PM
I have to say that I didn’t see Swift as being up front at Coventry. Maybe that’s just me?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on December 24, 2022, 06:26:42 PM
I have to say that I didn’t see Swift as being up front at Coventry. Maybe that’s just me?
Me neither, in fact I didn't see much of him at all. On the evidence of his performances so far, personally I am somewhat underwhelmed. I estimate with signing on fee and his three years contract, he will be taking in the region of £6m from the clubs coffers. Oh dear.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 25, 2022, 06:42:20 AM
I have to say that I didn’t see Swift as being up front at Coventry. Maybe that’s just me?

He played a few roles in that game; first half he was alongside Yokuslu out of possession and slightly advanced to the left of him in possession. Second half he went wide left and further forward just off of the striker, that's why he will have had a touch map like he did.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 25, 2022, 11:53:45 AM
He played a few roles in that game; first half he was alongside Yokuslu out of possession and slightly advanced to the left of him in possession. Second half he went wide left and further forward just off of the striker, that's why he will have had a touch map like he did.

Makes sense, thanks. I was doubting my own eyes in terms of what I saw at the game. I did not see him up front.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on December 25, 2022, 02:13:29 PM
We definitely play a 4-4-2 when we don't have the ball, but when we do have the ball Slit looks more like a 4-2-3-1. I'll get a couple of screenshots from the Coventry and Rotherham games of the 4-4-2

But as Baggiebof originally said, formations are fluid, and players' roles with those formations mean they can and should morph and change.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on December 25, 2022, 02:45:05 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/7nxzkwP/Screenshot-20221224-145543.png) (https://ibb.co/5rX9KNm)

This is from the Coventry game and shows us in a very clear 4-4-2 mid-block.

(https://i.ibb.co/DWx8N5c/Screenshot-20221225-143829.png) (https://ibb.co/W5bPQg8)

And this was Vs Sunderland.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on December 25, 2022, 05:17:56 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/7nxzkwP/Screenshot-20221224-145543.png) (https://ibb.co/5rX9KNm)

This is from the Coventry game and shows us in a very clear 4-4-2 mid-block.

(https://i.ibb.co/DWx8N5c/Screenshot-20221225-143829.png) (https://ibb.co/W5bPQg8)

And this was Vs Sunderland.
Very  impressed with your use of screen shots Mark. Modern technology. Don't ya just love it!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 25, 2022, 08:03:01 PM
I wish I knew how to do these screenshot things, I'd have posted them three or four games ago.

You judge a formation by how you set up when you don't have the ball. When you have the ball, if players stay in formation you're pretty much stuffed, you will never create anything without movement.

Good work MarkW
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 27, 2022, 11:06:18 AM
A Centre Half's performance is to a large extent dependent on his (her) partner.  If the partner is poor, he has to make a lot of scrappy clearances and can be pulled out of position to cover.  This is why O'Shea gets criticism from some here.  I think he is the best of our CHs and when either of Bartley or Ajayi is on form always plays really well.  I can't see him ever being outstanding with Pieters who is basically a full-back converted to a CH because his years have meant a drop in speed and injuries.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 27, 2022, 11:29:03 AM
A Centre Half's performance is to a large extent dependent on his (her) partner.  If the partner is poor, he has to make a lot of scrappy clearances and can be pulled out of position to cover.  This is why O'Shea gets criticism from some here.  I think he is the best of our CHs and when either of Bartley or Ajayi is on form always plays really well.  I can't see him ever being outstanding with Pieters who is basically a full-back converted to a CH because his years have meant a drop in speed and injuries.

I echo this. I saw some people criticise O'Shea's performance first half yesterday, totally unfairly. Our problems came from not dealing with straight forward balls which Townsend, Pieters and on one occasion Swift, failed to deal with. Once the initial ball hasn't been dealt with the rest of the defence has to react to a situation should never have arisen.

Neither O'Shea nor (for once) Furlong were culpable defensively. Practically all Brizzle's threat came from our left side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on December 27, 2022, 11:38:28 AM
A Centre Half's performance is to a large extent dependent on his (her) partner.  If the partner is poor, he has to make a lot of scrappy clearances and can be pulled out of position to cover.  This is why O'Shea gets criticism from some here.  I think he is the best of our CHs and when either of Bartley or Ajayi is on form always plays really well.  I can't see him ever being outstanding with Pieters who is basically a full-back converted to a CH because his years have meant a drop in speed and injuries.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me. O’Shea is a steady player but nothing special. He is probably the pick of the central defenders currently available but plainly nowhere near as good as Bartley, who is head and shoulders our best defender, even if the only two people who can see that are me and the manager.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 27, 2022, 11:44:30 AM
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. O’Shea is a steady player but nothing special. He is probably the pick of the central defenders currently available but plainly nowhere near as good as Bartley, who is head and shoulders our best defender, even if the only two people who can see that are me and the manager.

No, me as well, so that's three. O'Shea is more versatile than Bartley and far better on the ball. Bartley is the better "barrier" defender.

All players have different strengths and weaknesses, it's not often a case of (a general) who's better.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on December 27, 2022, 04:27:17 PM
No, me as well, so that's three. O'Shea is more versatile than Bartley and far better on the ball. Bartley is the better "barrier" defender.

All players have different strengths and weaknesses, it's not often a case of (a general) who's better.
So you are 3 in that Bartley is the best
But then it’s not about the best it’s that they are different😂

I think our CD,s aren’t the issue, I would genuinely play any 2 out of them and be happy IF we had a good RB and LB
Furlong and Townsend have both regressed, albeit Furlong to a lesser degree…Townsend has generally been woeful and it’s clear that teams are targeting that .
It’s a shame because when they are good they are actually more than capable .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 27, 2022, 06:41:29 PM
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. O’Shea is a steady player but nothing special. He is probably the pick of the central defenders currently available but plainly nowhere near as good as Bartley, who is head and shoulders our best defender, even if the only two people who can see that are me and the manager.

Bartley is another CH who cannot pass through the lines.  his main MO is to pass it square to O'Shea or his full back; he rarely does any thing constructive with it.   He's a very good blocker but not when alone against a rapidly oncoming attacker.

What you think the manager thinks may be right; we'll see when the actual manager has the three to choose from.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 28, 2022, 07:02:30 AM
Looking ahead to January and how Corberan is using the current squad, I've tried to highlight any depth issues below and identify where there may be a surplus:

Keeper: Palmer, Button

Right back: Furlong
Centre back: O'Shea, Bartley, Ajayi, Pieters
Left back: Townsend, Pieters

Central midfield: Yokuslu, Molumby, Gardner-Hickman, Swift
Right midfield: Wallace, Phillips
Left midfield: Phillips, Diangana

Attacking midfield: Swift, Rogic
Centre forward: Thomas-Asante, Dike

I've added a couple of people in twice that have played regularly in a couple of positions and added a couple in that haven't played but have been on the bench regularly when available. Looking at the above, Right back depth appears to be an area of concern and perhaps cb/lb depending on his views of Pieters. I question whether there's enough in the middle of the park, there's certainly no one like for like with Yokuslu (who I almost listed as a defensive midfielder on his own) and I may have been harsh not including Grant as a left midfielder, with him as a viable option you probably have the numbers although you'd probably need to use a young player on the bench If we picked up a couple of injuries.

Due to a lack of game time and appearances on the bench when available, I would suggest the following are all available to be moved although Corberan may be minded to keep them for depth:

Kelly, Reach, Livermore, Grant, Zohore

These players do mostly answer the missing gaps I've identified above so it may be a case of moving them on and replacing with the profile of player that better suits what Corberan wants. Either way I don't expect much movement, maybe one of the surplus players listed above out with a loan or young prospect t coming in their place.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on December 28, 2022, 09:46:36 AM
Kelly has played at right back.  Or have I got the wrong Kelly?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 28, 2022, 09:48:16 AM
Kelly has played at right back.  Or have I got the wrong Kelly?

Yes he has. I still think he can do a job if given the chance. Did okay in the few games he has played for us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 28, 2022, 10:03:17 AM
Yes he has. I still think he can do a job if given the chance. Did okay in the few games he has played for us.

I was basing this on minutes under Corberan for us, i know he has played right back in his career. I don't believe he has played at right back and has often not even been in the squad under Corberan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: timdon on December 28, 2022, 11:10:23 AM
So you are 3 in that Bartley is the best
But then it’s not about the best it’s that they are different😂

I think our CD,s aren’t the issue, I would genuinely play any 2 out of them and be happy IF we had a good RB and LB
Furlong and Townsend have both regressed, albeit Furlong to a lesser degree…Townsend has generally been woeful and it’s clear that teams are targeting that .
It’s a shame because when they are good they are actually more than capable .
Hasn't worked very well then, has it, given that we have gone seven and a half games without conceding a single goal from open play with Townsend in the side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 28, 2022, 11:24:40 AM
So you are 3 in that Bartley is the best
But then it’s not about the best it’s that they are different😂

I think our CD,s aren’t the issue, I would genuinely play any 2 out of them and be happy IF we had a good RB and LB
Furlong and Townsend have both regressed, albeit Furlong to a lesser degree…Townsend has generally been woeful and it’s clear that teams are targeting that .
It’s a shame because when they are good they are actually more than capable .

Overall Dara is the classier player he's the better footballer. But, when you build a team you need people that offer slightly different things. It's not always a question of who's "best" it's often a question of what a player brings to the team and what fit the manager wants.

Townsend hasn't been woeful at all. He's been in and out and not at his best at times but you look at his stats and most of them are pretty impressive.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on December 28, 2022, 11:30:32 AM
Looking ahead to January and how Corberan is using the current squad, I've tried to highlight any depth issues below and identify where there may be a surplus:

Keeper: Palmer, Button

Right back: Furlong
Centre back: O'Shea, Bartley, Ajayi, Pieters
Left back: Townsend, Pieters

Central midfield: Yokuslu, Molumby, Gardner-Hickman, Swift
Right midfield: Wallace, Phillips
Left midfield: Phillips, Diangana

Attacking midfield: Swift, Rogic
Centre forward: Thomas-Asante, Dike

I've added a couple of people in twice that have played regularly in a couple of positions and added a couple in that haven't played but have been on the bench regularly when available. Looking at the above, Right back depth appears to be an area of concern and perhaps cb/lb depending on his views of Pieters. I question whether there's enough in the middle of the park, there's certainly no one like for like with Yokuslu (who I almost listed as a defensive midfielder on his own) and I may have been harsh not including Grant as a left midfielder, with him as a viable option you probably have the numbers although you'd probably need to use a young player on the bench If we picked up a couple of injuries.

Due to a lack of game time and appearances on the bench when available, I would suggest the following are all available to be moved although Corberan may be minded to keep them for depth:

Kelly, Reach, Livermore, Grant, Zohore

These players do mostly answer the missing gaps I've identified above so it may be a case of moving them on and replacing with the profile of player that better suits what Corberan wants. Either way I don't expect much movement, maybe one of the surplus players listed above out with a loan or young prospect t coming in their place.

Good post, I would add Kean Bryan into the equation (cover for Yokuslu ?) he must surely be getting back to fitness now.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 28, 2022, 11:41:43 AM
In today's local papers CC says he is looking to reinforce rather than let people exit.

Not sure about that personally as there's about 80-100k per week worth of wages doing nothing and likely to continue to do so.


I imagine when he identifies a loan target and is told "no" that would change.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on December 28, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Good post, I would add Kean Bryan into the equation (cover for Yokuslu ?) he must surely be getting back to fitness now.

Given who his partner is I should imagine he has been fully fit throughout..... ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on December 28, 2022, 12:32:54 PM
Given who his partner is I should imagine he has been fully fit throughout..... ;)

had no idea, so googled it, lucky lad !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on December 28, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
Given who his partner is I should imagine he has been fully fit throughout..... ;)


I remember her. Nice girl. Her TV sister was even nicer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 28, 2022, 12:36:37 PM
Good post, I would add Kean Bryan into the equation (cover for Yokuslu ?) he must surely be getting back to fitness now.

He'd provide cover at centre back or even left back, he isn't a holding midfielder.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on December 28, 2022, 01:42:50 PM
He'd provide cover at centre back or even left back, he isn't a holding midfielder.

Although mostly at youth and then lower league level while on loan from Manchester City he's made 35 appearances as a DM according to Transfermarkt. I've no idea how he'd get along as a DM these days but he's certainly familiar with the role.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 28, 2022, 09:50:17 PM
Although mostly at youth and then lower league level while on loan from Manchester City he's made 35 appearances as a DM according to Transfermarkt. I've no idea how he'd get along as a DM these days but he's certainly familiar with the role.

Well that's me told!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on December 28, 2022, 10:12:38 PM
Well that's me told!

Happy to reiterate I have no idea how he'd get along as a DM these days, especially at a Championship club with apparent aspirations of reaching the Premier League. Consider yourself untold  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 29, 2022, 11:07:09 PM
Interesting tonight. First ten minutes or so we set up in a 4231 which at times was nearer a 433 with the wide men high up and Rogic in the ten position.

After about ten minutes it was noticeable that Rogic pushed further forward and the wide men dropped deeper into a 442.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 29, 2022, 11:34:02 PM
Interesting tonight. First ten minutes or so we set up in a 4231 which at times was nearer a 433 with the wide men high up and Rogic in the ten position.

After about ten minutes it was noticeable that Rogic pushed further forward and the wide men dropped deeper into a 442.

4231 all game I thought……..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 30, 2022, 01:24:26 AM
4231 all game I thought……..

No mate. Just watched the whole game back again. Definitely 442 after that initial ten mins.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on December 30, 2022, 08:47:44 AM
The wide players were both definitely wider last night, especially early on as Atomic says. As we have said before, it is definitely 442 off the ball a few things I've noticed we do on the ball:

Furlong tucks in, not quite making a back three and not quite all the way into central midfield, maybe think Walker at Man City. This means our rest defence is more secure.

The midfielder alongside Yokuslu will at times go slightly outside of Furlong, not on the touchline but just slightly outside and advanced, maybe think where Henderson for Liverpool sometimes goes to create space for Alexander-Arnold or where De Bruyne likes to cross from regularly; I think against low blocks, Gardner-Hickman could be more useful for us here than Molumby due to his ability on the ball and familiarity with wide positions.

Yokuslu stays central but perhaps just slightly left of centre with Townsend granted licence to get forward.

Our on the ball actions and patterns do tend to change game from game depending on the opposition but these themes have appeared fairly regularly.

In terms of shape on the ball, I'd still argue it is a 4231 just because of the zones of the pitch that are occupied; Swift/Rogic and the wide players are definitely ahead of Yokulsu/Molumby.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on December 30, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
No mate. Just watched the whole game back again. Definitely 442 after that initial ten mins.

Cannot argue. I just don’t see this level of detail.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on December 30, 2022, 07:56:09 PM
The wide players were both definitely wider last night, especially early on as Atomic says. As we have said before, it is definitely 442 off the ball a few things I've noticed we do on the ball:

Furlong tucks in, not quite making a back three and not quite all the way into central midfield, maybe think Walker at Man City. This means our rest defence is more secure.

The midfielder alongside Yokuslu will at times go slightly outside of Furlong, not on the touchline but just slightly outside and advanced, maybe think where Henderson for Liverpool sometimes goes to create space for Alexander-Arnold or where De Bruyne likes to cross from regularly; I think against low blocks, Gardner-Hickman could be more useful for us here than Molumby due to his ability on the ball and familiarity with wide positions.

Yokuslu stays central but perhaps just slightly left of centre with Townsend granted licence to get forward.

Our on the ball actions and patterns do tend to change game from game depending on the opposition but these themes have appeared fairly regularly.

In terms of shape on the ball, I'd still argue it is a 4231 just because of the zones of the pitch that are occupied; Swift/Rogic and the wide players are definitely ahead of Yokulsu/Molumby.

Some very astute observations.

It's very clear to me it's a 4-4-2 mid-block when we don't have the ball - Rogic and then Swift is definitely pushed in line with the striker.

I agree with your point about Molumby's positioning towards the right hand touchline. Furlong drove forward a couple of times into the space it created. I'm not sure is technically proficient enough to thrive in that role, but his work-rate and tenacity does come in handy, even if he did try to tackle BTA when he was threatening their back line.

I'm still not convinced what our on-ball shape is meant to be. A lot of teams play a variant of the W-M, and it's definitely something that we looked to be doing Vs Coventry - Yokuslu sitting in front of the centre backs, both full backs pushed ahead slightly, and the front five staggered across the pitch.

What really impressed me was our pressing. Both goals from pressing/counter pressing, and it was evident several other times. Coberan and his lieutenants deserve a lot of credit for this - it takes a lot of time on the training pitch to get the team doing this without leaving gaps to exploit.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on December 30, 2022, 11:01:56 PM
Some very astute observations.

It's very clear to me it's a 4-4-2 mid-block when we don't have the ball - Rogic and then Swift is definitely pushed in line with the striker.

I agree with your point about Molumby's positioning towards the right hand touchline. Furlong drove forward a couple of times into the space it created. I'm not sure is technically proficient enough to thrive in that role, but his work-rate and tenacity does come in handy, even if he did try to tackle BTA when he was threatening their back line.

I'm still not convinced what our on-ball shape is meant to be. A lot of teams play a variant of the W-M, and it's definitely something that we looked to be doing Vs Coventry - Yokuslu sitting in front of the centre backs, both full backs pushed ahead slightly, and the front five staggered across the pitch.

What really impressed me was our pressing. Both goals from pressing/counter pressing, and it was evident several other times. Coberan and his lieutenants deserve a lot of credit for this - it takes a lot of time on the training pitch to get the team doing this without leaving gaps to exploit.

The energy levels last night were outstanding. The team looked a lot fitter than the opposition. The only player who still looked to be in second gear was Grant. I'm not sure what we have to do to get him firing on full cylinders. The attention to detail from the coaching staff, including all the video analysis is clearly paying off. The team hunted Preston down in packs.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on December 31, 2022, 02:37:24 PM
The wide players were both definitely wider last night, especially early on as Atomic says. As we have said before, it is definitely 442 off the ball a few things I've noticed we do on the ball:

Furlong tucks in, not quite making a back three and not quite all the way into central midfield, maybe think Walker at Man City. This means our rest defence is more secure.

The midfielder alongside Yokuslu will at times go slightly outside of Furlong, not on the touchline but just slightly outside and advanced, maybe think where Henderson for Liverpool sometimes goes to create space for Alexander-Arnold or where De Bruyne likes to cross from regularly; I think against low blocks, Gardner-Hickman could be more useful for us here than Molumby due to his ability on the ball and familiarity with wide positions.

Yokuslu stays central but perhaps just slightly left of centre with Townsend granted licence to get forward.

Our on the ball actions and patterns do tend to change game from game depending on the opposition but these themes have appeared fairly regularly.

In terms of shape on the ball, I'd still argue it is a 4231 just because of the zones of the pitch that are occupied; Swift/Rogic and the wide players are definitely ahead of Yokulsu/Molumby.

Whoscored.com is excellent for several analytics. It shows you players average positions throughout a game and it opens your eyes. You can see how things vary game by game.

The wide midfielders role varies, sometimes they are further infield sometimes they stay wide. At times Jed Wallace is actually our most advanced player. Usually he is wider and further forward than Phillips has been on the other side. Against Preston Wallace was notably further infield second half resulting in him having three or four shots from range.

The full backs vary too. Some games they are further forward than others.

The second striker plays right alongside Dike / Thomas Asante off the ball but when we have it Dike / BTA tend to play on the shoulder whilst the second striker generally drops   off the main striker. What is fascinating is Molumby often is quite high up and at times in a ten role on the right hand side of the midfield with Yokuslu his bodyguard  to the left and often deeper. At Bristol City Yokuslu was very deep recieving the ball only just in front of the centre backs.

The basic platform of 442 off the ball has existed since Corberans second game. Its very much two banks of four off the ball but we're very fluent when we go forward, we now do so with a purpose and with variety. Our only tactic at the start of the season was get Wallace to ping in cross after cross. That's gone now. Wallace does still cross the ball but not nearly as much, he is linking play more. We now create chances down the right, down the left and through the middle. That's something we haven't done for some time.

CC must have ordered players to shoot around the edge of the box as well. We are now shooting on sight far more, not one player but several. Wallace, BTA, Yokuslu, Molumby, Swift and Diangana for example all had shots from range against Preston. No more do we just keep going from side to side across the area then go back again. It's clear we've been told to be more direct. Diangana when he came on at Bristol City, two shots on goal, one of them when he drove into the box. Previously he'd have held on to the ball and probably try to nutmeg the defender. I noticed him against Preston one and two touch and release the ball rather than taking too many touches and slowing everything down.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 01, 2023, 07:38:47 AM
It is great that we have variety and purpose to our attacks now, that's for sure.

Regards the average player positions on whoacored, do you know what this is based on Atomic? I am guessing it is where the players has received the ball most often. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story but is still very useful, thanks for highlighting!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on January 01, 2023, 09:42:07 AM
The energy levels last night were outstanding. The team looked a lot fitter than the opposition. The only player who still looked to be in second gear was Grant. I'm not sure what we have to do to get him firing on full cylinders. The attention to detail from the coaching staff, including all the video analysis is clearly paying off. The team hunted Preston down in packs.
Well I thought Grant looked a bit fitter and quicker with that burst he had from inside our half late on. Pretty sure it was Grant anyway.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on January 01, 2023, 01:13:53 PM
Well I thought Grant looked a bit fitter and quicker with that burst he had from inside our half late on. Pretty sure it was Grant anyway.

Yeah, that was him. Maybe I’m being harsh, but I got the impression he wasn’t really buying into the pressing of their defence, all seemed a little bit after the event; but hard to compete with BTA’s hunger and mobility.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 02, 2023, 05:16:00 PM
Really need to move on Livermore, Reach, Zohore and Kelly for me, even if we only get half their wages covered imagine the quality loans we could bring in to get us to the end.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 02, 2023, 06:01:32 PM
Really need to move on Livermore, Reach, Zohore and Kelly for me, even if we only get half their wages covered imagine the quality loans we could bring in to get us to the end.

Wishful thinking. Livermore going and having 50-75% of his wages covered might get us 2.players in on loan.

Cant see Zohore being motivated to leave.

Reach might want game time so might go. Perhaps same with kelly on a loan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on January 02, 2023, 06:07:12 PM
zohore and motivated in the same sentence remarkable
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 02, 2023, 07:04:59 PM
Wishful thinking. Livermore going and having 50-75% of his wages covered might get us 2.players in on loan.

Cant see Zohore being motivated to leave.

Reach might want game time so might go. Perhaps same with kelly on a loan.


Zohore will leave as long as we pay any shortfall apparently. That's what i'm saying, we won't get anyone to take them off us but if we can get half their wages back that's 40k a week at least for loans.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on January 02, 2023, 07:37:56 PM
Really need to move on Livermore, Reach, Zohore and Kelly for me, even if we only get half their wages covered imagine the quality loans we could bring in to get us to the end.

Agree on Livermore, Zohore and Kelly (with the latter having done nothing wrong other than not fitting the current system ot seems), but with how we are now utilising Reach there is no reason to get rid - this is exactly ehat he was bought in to be originally. He is a utility player who can play wing back or as a more defensive winger when we are leading a game, with him also being able to fill in a central midfield role very occasionally.

When he was getting regular starts and nearly always coming off the bench we had a problem, but in his current role I've no issue - most trams in this division have the same sort of standard as their rotation subs.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 02, 2023, 07:40:32 PM
Agree on Livermore, Zohore and Kelly (with the latter having done nothing wrong other than not fitting the current system ot seems), but with how we are now utilising Reach there is no reason to get rid - this is exactly ehat he was bought in to be originally. He is a utility player who can play wing back or as a more defensive winger when we are leading a game, with him also being able to fill in a central midfield role very occasionally.

When he was getting regular starts and nearly always coming off the bench we had a problem, but in his current role I've no issue - most trams in this division have the same sort of standard as their rotation subs.


Kelly as you say has done nothing wrong but CC doesn't rate him so he needs to go.


Reach i can see your point to some extent but we could find better if we can find someone to pay half his wages surely?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 02, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
I know the window is open etc... but to some extent what Corberan has done has debunked the whole "manager needs his own players and everything is about recruitment" narrative. What we are talking about unloading is essentially squad depth and I would hazard a guess we are probably not recruiting starter quality replacements.

I am not saying we can't improve the personnel but it isn't anywhere as important when you don't have a coach who needs a talent advantage to be effective.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Manc Baggie on January 02, 2023, 10:08:20 PM
Whoscored.com is excellent for several analytics.
That’s a great shout. Just spent some time on whoscored & you are spot on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 03, 2023, 12:27:21 AM
That’s a great shout. Just spent some time on whoscored & you are spot on.

I woul recommend the use of their Chalkboard and Match Centre over the average position chart in their Match Report. Averages of position are prone to drastic changes, such as wingers swapping sides, as happened between Wallace and Diangana in the first half Vs Preston. The "average" is narrower that they may have actually been.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on January 03, 2023, 09:02:12 AM
It was more 4231 yesterday. When Reading had possession we did fall into a 442 but they barely had any first half as we dominated the ball and Swift kept dropping off into the ten position.

Molumby spent quite a bit of time in the inside right channel making almost a double "ten" at times with Swift.

Swift put in a decent performance yesterday and it was noticeable we lost our edge a bit when Rogic came on. Rogic needs to speed up his thought process, seems to think he has more time on the ball than he has. Whilst Yokuslu has mastered the art of creating his own time on the ball  Rogic hasn't........ yet!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on January 03, 2023, 10:25:35 AM
Please could you explain?  If a winger executes 50% of his touches on the left wing and 50% on the right, does the average put him playing down the middle?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 03, 2023, 12:36:17 PM
Please could you explain?  If a winger executes 50% of his touches on the left wing and 50% on the right, does the average put him playing down the middle?

In effect, yes. I don't know how Who Scored calculate the average positions, but in Match Centre -> Chalkboard you can see that Wallace and Diangana had touches on the opposite flank to their normal side.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 05, 2023, 05:53:27 PM
Palmer and Yokuslu both named in Champo team of the month by EFL. Well deserved lads.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BaggieBirdRus on January 15, 2023, 09:19:11 AM
I know we conceded 2 poor goals yesterday but the thing I have noticed more than anything is how hard we are to break down.

We essentially play with 2 defensive wingers in MP and Wallace who also carry a lot of threat going forward from crossing whenever they get chance. With them tracking back it gives our Full Backs (weakest area) more protection which then forces teams to go through the middle where we normally have 3 and the best defensive midfielder in the league.

The one area where we are weakest in my opinion is long balls over the top. I think Coventry did this quite well against us and especially if a team has a mobile centre forward who can run channels and stretch defence. I do think Ajayi is the answer to this problem with his pace and also his height this would stop us being more prone.

Overall though CC has just made us a team that you don’t want to play against much like his Huddersfield one. Solid everywhere, hard to beat with enough quality in forward areas to win games 1/2-0.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on January 15, 2023, 12:21:24 PM
I know we conceded 2 poor goals yesterday but the thing I have noticed more than anything is how hard we are to break down.

We essentially play with 2 defensive wingers in MP and Wallace who also carry a lot of threat going forward from crossing whenever they get chance. With them tracking back it gives our Full Backs (weakest area) more protection which then forces teams to go through the middle where we normally have 3 and the best defensive midfielder in the league.

The one area where we are weakest in my opinion is long balls over the top. I think Coventry did this quite well against us and especially if a team has a mobile centre forward who can run channels and stretch defence. I do think Ajayi is the answer to this problem with his pace and also his height this would stop us being more prone.

Overall though CC has just made us a team that you don’t want to play against much like his Huddersfield one. Solid everywhere, hard to beat with enough quality in forward areas to win games 1/2-0.

The defensive organisation has been excellent. Undone yesterday by great strike that caught Palmer not paying attention (he was pointing and shouting to Furlong and not in the middle of his goal) and then a set piece which was a great cross headed in by their big lad, which can happen as we are getting by without Bartley who is colossal in the air. Have to give Luton some credit for their goals.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 16, 2023, 06:09:13 AM

The one area where we are weakest in my opinion is long balls over the top. I think Coventry did this quite well against us and especially if a team has a mobile centre forward who can run channels and stretch defence. I do think Ajayi is the answer to this problem with his pace and also his height this would stop us being more prone.


Agree with this viewpoint but I'd like to add that a consequence of being narrow and compact off the ball means wing backs often find a lot of space against us, that Cov game is a good reference point here.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 16, 2023, 08:45:44 AM
I know we conceded 2 poor goals yesterday but the thing I have noticed more than anything is how hard we are to break down.

We essentially play with 2 defensive wingers in MP and Wallace who also carry a lot of threat going forward from crossing whenever they get chance. With them tracking back it gives our Full Backs (weakest area) more protection which then forces teams to go through the middle where we normally have 3 and the best defensive midfielder in the league.

The one area where we are weakest in my opinion is long balls over the top. I think Coventry did this quite well against us and especially if a team has a mobile centre forward who can run channels and stretch defence. I do think Ajayi is the answer to this problem with his pace and also his height this would stop us being more prone.

Overall though CC has just made us a team that you don’t want to play against much like his Huddersfield one. Solid everywhere, hard to beat with enough quality in forward areas to win games 1/2-0.

It doesn't matter how tall or fast you are if you misjudge the flight of a ball, something which Ajayi did in the latter stages when he came on against Luton presumably to guard against high balls over the top in particular.

Luckily enough Dara read the flight of it better and was on hand to nod back to Palmer. Ajayi is rusty and will need some time to get back up to speed. However, he does have a habit of switching off.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 18, 2023, 05:50:10 AM
We've had the cup games now so can make a bit of a judgment on the squad players and in turn what we might need in January:

Right back
Gardner-Hickman has been the understudy for Furlong and has, by all accounts, not impressed. I'd suggest a more like for like backup to Furlong is required.

Wide attacker

Diangana has not really shone under Corberan, Grant whilst contributing a goal and assist v Chesterfield has looked poor otherwise and Reach isn't a threat out there (he's barely had minutes there either). Other options include Swift wide but Rogic looks very much the backup option for the 10 role so that isn't a regular option either. Even prior to Phillips' injury, a wide attacker is needed. Someone with pace, a directness about them and maybe proficient at dribbling in tight spaces as I expect we will face more deep blocks in the second half of the season that we have so far under Corberan.

I dont expect us to be able to do loads in the market nor do we need to as the squad has decent numbers. I'd love to get a central midfielder in, especially to deputise for Yokuslu but get the feeling we won't be able to move on Livermore to facilitate this and, as Corberan is a man that seems to place a lot of importance on culture, maybe he wouldn't want to for what he apparently brings off the field. Other than that I would suggest we are well stocked in most areas.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on January 18, 2023, 09:42:13 PM
Really cannot see us bringing yet another wide player in. Unless of course we off load a couple of wide players
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: skyclad99 on January 18, 2023, 09:45:06 PM
Knowing our financial situation I cannot see us bringing anyone in during this window. Given CC's spectacular success he will be hard pushed to ask for anyone to strengthen the squad and get a receptive chinese ear.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on January 20, 2023, 11:46:30 AM
It will be interesting to see who Corberan plays in the Phillips role wide left. He does have options but none that will obviously naturally tuck inside and be as effective in their off the ball work. It speaks volumes for both Phillips form and the faults in the alternatives that there are 3 players who are more natural fits (Reach, Diangana and Grant) who are very obviously not the Coach's first choice.

In broader terms in terms of the squad there might be a case for reinforcements. Yet for the most part it is squad depth and difficult to see happening without trading players out. If a genuine starter option could be sourced at full back that would be useful and maybe a third striker but if Asante and Dike stay fit and in form it will be difficult to guarantee a loanee game time.     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 20, 2023, 12:30:56 PM
He's been bigging up Grady over the last 24 hours so possibly GD but CC also said he sees Grant there
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: costa blanca baggie on January 20, 2023, 12:52:46 PM
He's been bugging up Grady over the last 24 hours so possibly GD but CC also said he sees Grant there
If sticking a mic on him makes him play better, who are we to complain. Personally, I think CC should have the mic, and Grady should be receiving orders through ear pods.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 20, 2023, 01:02:34 PM
If sticking a mic on him makes him play better, who are we to complain. Personally, I think CC should have the mic, and Grady should be receiving orders through ear pods.

Made me laugh out loud on webcam training 😂

Bloody autocorrect. Amended
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 20, 2023, 10:43:48 PM
Definitely need a few savvy loan additions. There are clearly players CC will not use unless absolutely necessary.

We must move out the dross that will not play even if we only get a few thousand a week in wages each for them
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BigFrank20 on January 28, 2023, 06:22:07 AM
https://twitter.com/htomufc/status/1618938571083358208
Shows graphically how we transition from 442 to a 532 the result of top and proper coaching 
COYB
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on January 28, 2023, 08:17:56 AM
https://twitter.com/htomufc/status/1618938571083358208
Shows graphically how we transition from 442 to a 532 the result of top and proper coaching 
COYB

Very interesting to see this. Don’t see it when at the games, at least I don’t  8)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on January 28, 2023, 11:12:04 AM
https://twitter.com/htomufc/status/1618938571083358208
Shows graphically how we transition from 442 to a 532 the result of top and proper coaching 
COYB

Sorry, don't understand that, the threat is from their left wing (the player has dissapeared out of shot), that's exactly where the ball is heading when the sequence stopped. I can't see where there's any threat on our left side side when our player joins the back four.
IMO, if the sequence was run on, we'd see Furlong move out to meet the threat from their left winger & Wallace come back to fill the hole that Furlong left. Our left sided player would then move forward to receive an out-ball.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SirTonyM on January 28, 2023, 04:01:31 PM
Finally have a decent manager but nothing to back him with. I personally think he needs a few new players but may get 1.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on January 28, 2023, 04:56:33 PM
I think it’s time we binned the likes of Grant and Livermore from the match day squad offer absolutely nothing
I’d much rather we start integrating the likes of Malcolm,cleary and andrews who have the desire and commitment
You look at that bristle team today with plenty of youth that simply out ran and out battled us
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on January 28, 2023, 05:07:02 PM
I've said for a while we need 4 loan players as cc's energetic style of play is going to lead to tiredness and injuries.

I know we don't have any money, but that doesn't change the fact our bench is terrible and we need reinforcements.

It's a shame our fringe players are not worth anything, not eve  Grant is attracting a bid.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: CL3MO on January 28, 2023, 06:52:14 PM
I think it’s time we binned the likes of Grant and Livermore from the match day squad offer absolutely nothing
I’d much rather we start integrating the likes of Malcolm,cleary and andrews who have the desire and commitment
You look at that bristle team today with plenty of youth that simply out ran and out battled us

I agree but we can’t just ‘bin’ them. Who’s going to take Livermore on his juicy deal? And Grant: we still owe 7.5 million and he’s also on big wages. Rumours that we *may* loan him out? But all we will get back there is, most likely, 50% of his wages off the bill.

We’re stuck with them atm…
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on January 28, 2023, 08:45:38 PM
I agree but we can’t just ‘bin’ them. Who’s going to take Livermore on his juicy deal? And Grant: we still owe 7.5 million and he’s also on big wages. Rumours that we *may* loan him out? But all we will get back there is, most likely, 50% of his wages off the bill.

We’re stuck with them atm…
Livermore will leave at the end of the season, forward planning is needed to see if any of the younger players are able to step up to championship level
We’ve also got another useless lump returning in mowatt, hopefully we can ship him out on loan again to free up his wages
Grant is a lower championship level team player but ultimately on top end wages, I can’t see us getting a fee for him anywhere near what we owe so again loan him out no fee full wages, it allows us a bit of flexibility then
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on January 29, 2023, 07:09:07 AM
Livermore is somebody whose attitude i have never been able to question it was always a lack of ability and mobility. Im not so sure he will sit out his contract. He might just want to go for the game time. We should offer him a free now if it can be done.

Kelly to wigan on a loan we should be trying our best to make that happen. If stoke are stupid enough to pay us for 50% of Grants wages for half a season thats another one we should be working on. We should have an option to buy in there. We k ow if the team set up focuses around him he will score. Zohore and bryan we will have to wait to summer to get them gone sadly. No wriggle room in our budget. And as mentioned above we have mowatt coming back and he is also no doubt on top money...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on January 29, 2023, 10:01:50 AM
The immediate problem is how/who do we replace Phillips with he was an integral part of CC team and none of the alternatives are up to scratch. There must be someone in the under 23 worth a tryout if not do we change the system and drop an extra player in the middle maybe TGH or Andrews?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 29, 2023, 12:48:45 PM
Oh well, if nothing else I think the FA Cup puts to bed the theory that we are blessed with a quality squad. We do have some good players for this level, I'd even go so far as to suggest we have some very good players for this level........ but we're not exactly bursting at the seams with quality in depth banging on the manager's door in the hope of selection.

A squad is about more than your best twelve or thirteen players and a big wage bill doesn't mean a thing when you're paying players who contribute next to nothing beyond what could be achieved by a training cone. Again, we do have some good players. But we've also got more than a few who quite simply aren't.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on January 29, 2023, 04:57:44 PM
Oh well, if nothing else I think the FA Cup puts to bed the theory that we are blessed with a quality squad. We do have some good players for this level, I'd even go so far as to suggest we have some very good players for this level........ but we're not exactly bursting at the seams with quality in depth banging on the manager's door in the hope of selection.

A squad is about more than your best twelve or thirteen players and a big wage bill doesn't mean a thing when you're paying players who contribute next to nothing beyond what could be achieved by a training cone. Again, we do have some good players. But we've also got more than a few who quite simply aren't.

Bartley and Pieters are our best central defenders, with those two back in the side and Palmer recalled we should improve defensively. We have struggled recently conceding 2 at Luton, 2 at Burnley and 3 yesterday. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on January 29, 2023, 05:02:44 PM
Bryan, Rogic, Livermore and Zohore contracts all expire at end of season.

Shouldn't be too difficult a task to get better value for money than those 4 for the combined 70k a week-ish they must be on.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on January 29, 2023, 06:03:30 PM
Isn't Kipre due back at end of season ?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 29, 2023, 06:04:24 PM
Bartley and Pieters are our best central defenders, with those two back in the side and Palmer recalled we should improve defensively. We have struggled recently conceding 2 at Luton, 2 at Burnley and 3 yesterday.

Do you know how many games Erik Pieters our 34 year old free transfer veteran played at centre half before he signed for West Bromwich Albion? You don't do you? Once. It was a four nil pumping for Stoke at the hands of Chelsea years ago. I think they went three at the back centrally.

You really don't have a very good opinion of our other centre backs if he's one of our best two when he's actually a left back by trade. Not that I'm knocking his contribution of course because despite being caught out every now and again he's actually done very well given he's playing out of position.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on January 29, 2023, 09:20:26 PM
I know nothing is confirmed yet but we have been very strongly linked with O'Brian and also linked with Chalobah without being linked with a wide player at all. It makes me wonder whether we might make a shift to 433. O'Brian in particular gives you ball carrying that we may have lost with Phillips being out.

A 433 also might get the best (whether it will be good enough is another matter) out of Grant & Diangana, both of whom I would say and definitely in the case of Grant, play better as a winger than a wide midfielder. We could still play a 442 mid block with O'Brian for example shifting left, Molumby and Yokuslu in the middle and Wallace on the right with the left winger joining the striker as the two off the ball. Dinagana and Grant clearly are going to be hard to move on now or probably in the future too due to our investment in them so it makes sense to attempt to utilise them the best way we can.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on January 30, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Grant can score but he just doesn't fit the Corberan regimen of defending from the front neither does Diangana.  Maybe(?!!!) if we played them a half each on the left wing, the change in style might catch out some teams.  Rogic is a very poor tackler.  I can't see a place for him in our set up.  Is he the outcome of a last minute trolley dash?

As for O'Brien, I could not envisage a team in which TGH, Molumby  and him were all on the same field at the same time.  When TGH came on last Saturday his passing was stronger, straighter and more accurate over a longer range.   He could go on loan but I think he would learn more from CC.  O'Brien looks more direct and probably the best of the three.  In my opinion he would replace Molumby and not TGH.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 01, 2023, 06:28:22 AM
Overall a poor window really as we have achieved is got cover in for Phillips and strengthened our midfield options on the bench. I don't really consider that we have strengthened out first team which feels like a missed opportunity.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 01, 2023, 06:49:47 AM
Think getting rid of Zohore is good as it saved us some money. Getting albrighton in meaning that there should be next to no game time for grant is superb business. If albrighton can stay fit thats an improvement on phillips in my eyes.

Wonder if clubs with players left with 5 months left on deals which are not deemed sellable asseta ie surplus to requirements will do mutual terminations? Plenty of cash strapped clubs out there.

Could have gone from average to good shifting grant on loan and amazing if he went perm
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 01, 2023, 07:11:18 AM
Think getting rid of Zohore is good as it saved us some money. Getting albrighton in meaning that there should be next to no game time for grant is superb business. If albrighton can stay fit thats an improvement on phillips in my eyes.

Wonder if clubs with players left with 5 months left on deals which are not deemed sellable asseta ie surplus to requirements will do mutual terminations? Plenty of cash strapped clubs out there.

Could have gone from average to good shifting grant on loan and amazing if he went perm

Unless there's been a change in the rules as far as I'm aware that would only be of relevance to us if players were released before the window shut so they could be registered as free agents now it's closed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 01, 2023, 08:44:41 AM
Overall a poor window really as we have achieved is got cover in for Phillips and strengthened our midfield options on the bench. I don't really consider that we have strengthened out first team which feels like a missed opportunity.
You don't think Albrighton is an upgrade on Grady, Grant, and Reach who would be filling in for Phillips?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tex on February 01, 2023, 09:00:47 AM
A better window than I had expected, Albrighton is a good option for Phillips and we have another option for our center midfield. The days of being blown away by signings have gone with our financial situation. The lack of repayment of the loan from Lai was the nail in the coffin to loans such as O’Brien.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2023, 09:06:11 AM
I didn’t expect any signings this month so to have two on board is pleasing though it does pose questions around the sustainability of our current recruitment model.

Albrighton goes straight into the first team and Chalobah provides good cover to Yokuslu and Molumby and further reduces our reliance on an aging Jake Livermore.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 01, 2023, 09:21:25 AM
I didn’t expect any signings this month so to have two on board is pleasing though it does pose questions around the sustainability of our current recruitment model.

Albrighton goes straight into the first team and Onomoah provides good cover to Yokuslu and Molumby and further reduces our reliance on an aging Jake Livermore.
Crossed wires  ;)
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 01, 2023, 09:31:40 AM
Why is Albrighton a direct replacement for Phillips; doesn't he usually play on the right wing?  Philips can play on either wing.  Seems more like a stand-in for Wallace. 
More ageing players.  Have we invested in hoists to get them in and out of the bath?

Chalobah has made so few appearances for Fulham that I cannot judge whether he has any talent.  All I hope is that he will have a good and enthusiastic attitude or just be cruising down the clock at our expense. 
Will he fit the Bruce criterion of living under an hour away from training?

Cannot understand how some hear are happy with the window.
Where's the Wisdom Smart loan repayment?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 01, 2023, 09:39:41 AM
You don't think Albrighton is an upgrade on Grady, Grant, and Reach who would be filling in for Phillips?

Yes although I guess I'm judging this against a fully fit squad, ie what was needed at the start of Jan. With Phillips injured we have kept our wide options at par bringing in Albrighton and have improved our back up options in the centre of midfield.

Take the point in the current context that Albrighton goes straight in although I felt we needed another option wide before Phillips got injured to improve.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hunnington Baggie on February 01, 2023, 09:58:17 AM
Why is Albrighton a direct replacement for Phillips; doesn't he usually play on the right wing?  Philips can play on either wing.  Seems more like a stand-in for Wallace. 
More ageing players.  Have we invested in hoists to get them in and out of the bath?

Chalobah has made so few appearances for Fulham that I cannot judge whether he has any talent.  All I hope is that he will have a good and enthusiastic attitude or just be cruising down the clock at our expense. 
Will he fit the Bruce criterion of living under an hour away from training?

Cannot understand how some hear are happy with the window.
Where's the Wisdom Smart loan repayment?
predominantly but it’s not a significantly higher number over his career (50-odd games more on the right than left). Phillips is SIGNIFICANTLY more of a dedicated right winger than Albrighton is/has been.

Overall some people’s happiness is down to expectation, many expected nothing and at least got something, so there is at least a bit of pleasure to come out of it. I don’t swing either way, it was a functional window that hasn’t strengthened or weakened us yet and at least provides with cover in 2 areas we were light on without improving the first team overall.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2023, 10:30:47 AM
Crossed wires  ;)

I wonder how many times I'm going to do that  ;D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 01, 2023, 10:50:27 AM
Do we think Jake Livermore won't been seen in a Baggies shirt again, unless we get injuries/suspensions.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dudleylad on February 01, 2023, 10:52:48 AM
The signing of Albrighton is very key to our current situation.

I believe he will provide competition to Furlong whilst allowing more flexibility with the use of Wallace both in terms of position and also minutes on the pitch to keep him fresh.

I understand the argument about him being an aging player, however the argument is only valid if its an aging player with no fitness or motivation, Albrighton appears to be non of these.

I see that signing as abit like when we signed Darren Flecther, providing the leadership and experience that a seasoned pro who is still playing semi regularly at a decent side gives you.

Chalobah provides great cover for Yokuslu but also reduces the issues should O Shea or Pieters get suspended or injured especially as Bartley is constantly injured and Ajayi just seems to be going backwards given his performances in the cup games.

If the lad had come in from Chelsea the options from midfield would have been very balanced.

I would loved to have seen a striker come to balance that part of the squad but perhaps he sees Malcolm as a player worth developing.

All in all they seem players suited to the new managers tactics which can also only be a good thing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggies_24 on February 01, 2023, 11:03:40 AM
Am I missing something I know Albrighton is right footed every time I’ve seen him play for Leicester he’s been a left midfielder. I assume we’l be playing with Wallace on the right & Albrighton on the left.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on February 01, 2023, 11:29:42 AM
Unlike some i think it was a good window for us, 2 out 2 in
Albrighton is a postman like Wallace lets hope they deliver for our strikers
Get to the line then put it into the 6 yd box, quite excited about this
433?
Who alongside dos is crucial, thats our big problem
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 11:43:32 AM
A better window than I had expected, Albrighton is a good option for Phillips and we have another option for our center midfield. The days of being blown away by signings have gone with our financial situation. The lack of repayment of the loan from Lai was the nail in the coffin to loans such as O’Brien.

I would say that Albrighton's loan is considerably more expensive than O'Brien's would have been.
Can't see too many Leicester players on less than £40k per week.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Hull Baggie on February 01, 2023, 11:56:04 AM
Am I missing something I know Albrighton is right footed every time I’ve seen him play for Leicester he’s been a left midfielder. I assume we’ll be playing with Wallace on the right & Albrighton on the left.

That's my take on it too. It's the most sensible option given the injury to Phillips and form of Diangana and Grant.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on February 01, 2023, 11:58:53 AM
I would say that Albrighton's loan is considerably more expensive than O'Brien's would have been.
Can't see too many Leicester players on less than £40k per week.
I've read 45K but doubt very much we are paying all his wages.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 01, 2023, 12:03:43 PM
I would say that Albrighton's loan is considerably more expensive than O'Brien's would have been.
Can't see too many Leicester players on less than £40k per week.

And had we signed Lewis O'Brien and gained promotion via the playoffs his obligatory £10,000,000 transfer fee would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's wages to the end of this season. That's before his signing on fee, promotion bonus and possible hike in wages.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 01, 2023, 12:09:31 PM
The signing of Albrighton is very key to our current situation.

I believe he will provide competition to Furlong whilst allowing more flexibility with the use of Wallace both in terms of position and also minutes on the pitch to keep him fresh.

Is he?

There's no way we've signed Albrighton - and on his wages - for him to provide competition to Furlong at right back.

Given the soundings from the local media he's very much playing on the left.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 01, 2023, 12:46:06 PM
Very much a wide midfield player by trade but he's also played both fullback positions, central midfield, on both wings and off the striker. Good all round footballer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 12:48:17 PM
And had we signed Lewis O'Brien and gained promotion via the playoffs his obligatory £10,000,000 transfer fee would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's wages to the end of this season. That's before his signing on fee, promotion bonus and possible hike in wages.

I was responding to this Dan


Quote
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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #1987 on: Today at 09:00:47 AM »
Quote
A better window than I had expected, Albrighton is a good option for Phillips and we have another option for our center midfield. The days of being blown away by signings have gone with our financial situation. The lack of repayment of the loan from Lai was the nail in the coffin to loans such as O’Brien.

I'm arguing that Lai's failure to repay his loan had no impact on the O'Brien loan & in all probablity the cost of the Albrighton loan was higher.
It's only if we got promotion that the commitment to buy O'Brien would have kicked in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on February 01, 2023, 12:50:03 PM
I've read 45K but doubt very much we are paying all his wages.

Sounds about right in wages terms but also agree that we will not be paying more than half of the total.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 01, 2023, 01:01:55 PM
I was responding to this Dan

I'm arguing that Lai's failure to repay his loan had no impact on the O'Brien loan & in all probablity the cost of the Albrighton loan was higher.
It's only if we got promotion that the commitment to buy O'Brien would have kicked in.

Which is exactly what I was suggesting when I typed if we.....

 'gained promotion via the playoffs his obligatory £10,000,000 transfer fee would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's wages to the end of this season. That's before his signing on fee, promotion bonus and possible hike in wages'.......

........ because had we gained promotion the loan to buy would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's loan, especially as we'd have been paying for them both ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 01:19:28 PM
Which is exactly what I was suggesting when I typed if we.....

 'gained promotion via the playoffs his obligatory £10,000,000 transfer fee would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's wages to the end of this season. That's before his signing on fee, promotion bonus and possible hike in wages'.......

........ because had we gained promotion the loan to buy would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's loan, especially as we'd have been paying for them both ;D .

Dan,

All I'm saying is Lai's failure to pay back his £7 million did not scupper the O'Brien deal.

If we are promoted, then the conditional £10 million transfer fee kicks in, but if we're not, then the Albrighton deal is probably more expensive.

My guess is, we pulled out of the O'Brien deal because £10 million was too much for a player who was Premier League in name only, & in the event of promotion, we can probably do better.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 01, 2023, 01:48:50 PM
Team could look like this:

      Palmer      
            
Furlong   O'Shea      Pieters   Townsend
            
Wallace   Molumby      YokuÅŸlu   Albrighton
            
      Swift      
            
      Dike      

Subs: Button, Bartley, Ajayi, Chalobah, Rogic, Diangana, Thomas-Asante

In the Stands: Griffiths,Livermore, Reach, Grant
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 01, 2023, 01:54:41 PM
Dan,

All I'm saying is Lai's failure to pay back his £7 million did not scupper the O'Brien deal.

If we are promoted, then the conditional £10 million transfer fee kicks in, but if we're not, then the Albrighton deal is probably more expensive.

My guess is, we pulled out of the O'Brien deal because £10 million was too much for a player who was Premier League in name only, & in the event of promotion, we can probably do better.

John,

I knew what you meant but I don't think you realise what I was doing. I was expanding on a point but it doesn't really matter either way because the moment's gone, a 24kg kettlebell is in need of my immediate attention and O'Brien isn't coming so it's all a bit redundant now anyway. Off to get sweaty, have a good one chap  8) .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 02:07:09 PM
John,

I knew what you meant but I don't think you realise what I was doing. I was expanding on a point but it doesn't really matter either way because the moment's gone, a 24kg kettlebell is in need of my immediate attention and O'Brien isn't coming so it's all a bit redundant now anyway. Off to get sweaty, have a good one chap  8) .

ok, enjoy the gym
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 01, 2023, 03:06:17 PM
Tactically I don't think the window signals any significant changes.

Albrighton has plainly been bought in for the "Phillips role" on the left. It speaks volumes as to what Corberan thinks of the alternatives there (Grant, Diangana and Reach) that we bring in a 33 year old veteran to plug the gap.

Chalobah will slot into the Central Midfield in out current shape and means we don't have to play Yokuslu/Molumby for every minute of every game for the remaining 18 games of the regular Championship season.

Kelly leaving seems largely neutral given the injuries we have had Corberan hasn't turned to him so one might conclude that he isn't seen as useful option.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 03:47:45 PM
Tactically I don't think the window signals any significant changes.

Albrighton has plainly been bought in for the "Phillips role" on the left. It speaks volumes as to what Corberan thinks of the alternatives there (Grant, Diangana and Reach) that we bring in a 33 year old veteran to plug the gap.

Chalobah will slot into the Central Midfield in out current shape and means we don't have to play Yokuslu/Molumby for every minute of every game for the remaining 18 games of the regular Championship season.

Kelly leaving seems largely neutral given the injuries we have had Corberan hasn't turned to him so one might conclude that he isn't seen as useful option.

I suspect the Chelsea  lad was the prefered target, they then turned to Albrighton when it looked likely that the Chelsea deal was going to fall down.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tambag on February 01, 2023, 04:37:40 PM
I suspect the Chelsea  lad was the prefered target, they then turned to Albrighton when it looked likely that the Chelsea deal was going to fall down.

Just listened to the Albrighton interview, where he said we has signed one lad (Chalobah) and there could be another.

So I think we were after both !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dudleylad on February 01, 2023, 08:05:23 PM
Is he?

There's no way we've signed Albrighton - and on his wages - for him to provide competition to Furlong at right back.

Given the soundings from the local media he's very much playing on the left.

My view is he will either play right back or right midfield with Wallace moving over. to the left

I say competition in the terms of im always very much that the person who currently has the shirt should keep it if performing, but for me a right hand side of Wallace and Albrighton would be so strong at this level.

As you say though local media are suggesting hes going to play on the left but personally Im not sure.  However as I say hes key to the situation we find ourselves in especially as he adds depth in 2 positions on his favoured side and potentially one on the left aswell.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggiee_Boyy_Benn on February 01, 2023, 09:37:37 PM
I suspect the Chelsea  lad was the prefered target, they then turned to Albrighton when it looked likely that the Chelsea deal was going to fall down.

Incorrect.

We were after both, Chelsea fell through. Marc was essentially already signed by that point. We wanted them both, Grant had to go the other way to bring in Omari.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 01, 2023, 11:11:16 PM
Incorrect.

We were after both, Chelsea fell through. Marc was essentially already signed by that point. We wanted them both, Grant had to go the other way to bring in Omari.

Let's put it this way.

We were probably after both, but if one deal was to fail, the preference was for it to be the Albrighton deal.
As I understand it, the Grant deal was dependent on Omari coming in, not the other way round.
When we found out that the Omari deal was at risk, we made sure we completed the Albrighton deal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on February 02, 2023, 12:27:25 AM
And had we signed Lewis O'Brien and gained promotion via the playoffs his obligatory £10,000,000 transfer fee would have proved considerably more expensive than Marc Albrighton's wages to the end of this season. That's before his signing on fee, promotion bonus and possible hike in wages.

If we gained promotion we would increase our 2023/24 revenue to a minimum of £100m, excluding subsequent parachute payments. The transfer of £10m would be subject to amortization over the length of his contract, i.e. £2.5m a year over four years. So yes, more expensive than Albrighton, but the club would gain an asset on it's balance sheet at the same time. My main gripe (not aiming this at you BTW) is the idea that spending £10m on a player against a Premiership budget is throwing the baby out with the bath water. When the reality is that sort of fee is insignificant in the EPL.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 02, 2023, 07:31:50 AM
If we gained promotion we would increase our 2023/24 revenue to a minimum of £100m, excluding subsequent parachute payments. The transfer of £10m would be subject to amortization over the length of his contract, i.e. £2.5m a year over four years. So yes, more expensive than Albrighton, but the club would gain an asset on it's balance sheet at the same time. My main gripe (not aiming this at you BTW) is the idea that spending £10m on a player against a Premiership budget is throwing the baby out with the bath water. When the reality is that sort of fee is insignificant in the EPL.

I know....... but thank you very much for explaining this to me in the event that I had in fact....... not known the above  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiejohn on February 02, 2023, 08:41:16 AM
If we gained promotion we would increase our 2023/24 revenue to a minimum of £100m, excluding subsequent parachute payments. The transfer of £10m would be subject to amortization over the length of his contract, i.e. £2.5m a year over four years. So yes, more expensive than Albrighton, but the club would gain an asset on it's balance sheet at the same time. My main gripe (not aiming this at you BTW) is the idea that spending £10m on a player against a Premiership budget is throwing the baby out with the bath water. When the reality is that sort of fee is insignificant in the EPL.

Are you seriously suggesting that we commit to spending a £10 million transfer fee on a player whose coach doesn't see him as Premier League quality.
If he did, the player wouldn't have been available for loan.

IMO, the club made a sensible football decision & Lai's outstanding loan had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 02, 2023, 07:08:38 PM
Just popping down the Lamborghini dealership in case I win the lottery
No I ain’t because it would be daft
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on February 15, 2023, 12:23:21 AM
Now Bartley out for another 6 weeks with his reoccurring injury he is another one who should be released in summer. Club needs to be brave.

Livermore Bartley Bryan Rogic. Pieters will depend on the league we find ourselves in...

Grant and Reach should also be available to be moved on. Save a fortune on wages and see what Don Carlos can do
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 15, 2023, 08:15:08 AM
Now Bartley out for another 6 weeks with his reoccurring injury he is another one who should be released in summer. Club needs to be brave.

He’s under contract..
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on February 15, 2023, 12:38:39 PM
He’s under contract..

I remember being scoffed at for this, below

Re: Kyle Bartley
« Reply #1212 on: December 29, 2022, 11:28:11 PM »

Am I alone in thinking we will not see him play for wba again?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 15, 2023, 01:01:45 PM
I remember being scoffed at for this, below

Re: Kyle Bartley
« Reply #1212 on: December 29, 2022, 11:28:11 PM »

Am I alone in thinking we will not see him play for wba again?

Given Carlos' comments around him I see him as a regular starter next season. Injuries dependent.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 19, 2023, 06:59:16 AM
How can we get more goals? We are pretty tight at the back in that we don't give up loads of chances but we aren't scoring nearly enough. Few ideas below of things we could do:

Reintegrate Rogic

As much as Rogic was seemingly off the pace in many games, he did contribute goals and assists in the minutes he had on the pitch. Personally I'd have him as an option on the bench and in games at home where we are likely to have most of the ball, I'd consider starting him.

Set-piece threat

Corberan has a good record as a coach for his teams scoring from set-pieces. He started off well with us in this regard but this has slowed down since Bartley's injury although we have recently scored from set-pieces against Burnley and Coventry. Could Ajayi be brought in, either in place of Pieters or with O'Shea moving to right back? We would likely be more of a set-piece threat but Pieters and O'Shea have a good partnership, I wouldn't want to mess with that.

Start Thomas-Asante and Dike

Unlike many, I'm not sure starting both Thomas-Asante together up front is the answer but would consider Thomas-Asante as an option wide left with Dike up front. You'd be able to utilise Thomas-Asante's energy and work off the ball with a licence to still make his runs in behind, something Phillips gave us that we are missing. Of course, this would mean no centre forward option on the bench which is not ideal.

Wallace from the left

Our left wide player usually has a little more licence to come infield with Townsend often making overlapping runs. Having Wallace out there means he may get within striking distance of the goal more regularly. With Albrighton maybe wide right, we wouldn't necessarily lose that supply line of crosses that Dike sometimes looks dangerous from.

Few ideas there as to what can be done to help score more goals. It could end up being something as simple as confidence and momentum but it wouldn't surprise me if Corberan is looking at changes he can make to help us score more as opposed to waiting for confidence and momentum to return.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on February 19, 2023, 08:07:54 AM
How can we get more goals? We are pretty tight at the back in that we don't give up loads of chances but we aren't scoring nearly enough. Few ideas below of things we could do:



Start Thomas-Asante and Dike

Unlike many, I'm not sure starting both Thomas-Asante together up front is the answer but would consider Thomas-Asante as an option wide left with Dike up front. You'd be able to utilise Thomas-Asante's energy and work off the ball with a licence to still make his runs in behind, something Phillips gave us that we are missing. Of course, this would mean no centre forward option on the bench which is not ideal.


I'm not usually in favour of us playing two up top but BTA just seems such a natural fit as a workaholic 2nd striker with license to drop deeper or drift wider - he could be a real pain in the *rse for defences. I'd like to see how this goes. The lack of a CF from the bench is a concern but we'd just have to shuffle the formation in event of injury or make more use of Malcolm or Cleary.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 19, 2023, 10:31:03 AM
How can we get more goals? We are pretty tight at the back in that we don't give up loads of chances but we aren't scoring nearly enough. Few ideas below of things we could do:

...


Interesting, my take

Reintegrate Rogic
As noted by several Rogic has not the energy or the bravery for this division.  Everyone needs to work hard and he's a bit of a show pony.  we can't afford to have him going missing from a tackling midfield just in the hope that he may make a telling pass which BTA and Dike might miss anyway. (see below)

Set-piece threat
Agree with you here.  I was hoping that CC would be able to repair Ajayi's nerves and give him some confidence.  We do need more height in the back line and to move Pieters to LB

Start Thomas-Asante and Dike
Having one unreliable shooter in the forward line is bad enough but two is wasteful.  BTA missed a sitter against Blackburn.  I know he was offside but he didn't know that at the time.  Dike is a lumbering giant atm; when he gets faster then he can play more than 15 mins.

Wallace from the left
The only reason to move Wallace from Right wing half is that we have bought Albrighton - yet another pensioner good for a half a game or so.  It's mad to ruin the effectiveness of one of our best players in order to accommodate a panic buy.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on February 19, 2023, 12:16:46 PM
Interesting, my take

Reintegrate Rogic
As noted by several Rogic has not the energy or the bravery for this division.  Everyone needs to work hard and he's a bit of a show pony.  we can't afford to have him going missing from a tackling midfield just in the hope that he may make a telling pass which BTA and Dike might miss anyway. (see below)

Set-piece threat
Agree with you here.  I was hoping that CC would be able to repair Ajayi's nerves and give him some confidence.  We do need more height in the back line and to move Pieters to LB

Start Thomas-Asante and Dike
Having one unreliable shooter in the forward line is bad enough but two is wasteful.  BTA missed a sitter against Blackburn.  I know he was offside but he didn't know that at the time.  Dike is a lumbering giant atm; when he gets faster then he can play more than 15 mins.

Wallace from the left
The only reason to move Wallace from Right wing half is that we have bought Albrighton - yet another pensioner good for a half a game or so.  It's mad to ruin the effectiveness of one of our best players in order to accommodate a panic buy.
Spot on NJS.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on February 19, 2023, 01:28:28 PM
Interesting, my take

Reintegrate Rogic
As noted by several Rogic has not the energy or the bravery for this division.  Everyone needs to work hard and he's a bit of a show pony.  we can't afford to have him going missing from a tackling midfield just in the hope that he may make a telling pass which BTA and Dike might miss anyway. (see below)


Set-piece threat
Agree with you here.  I was hoping that CC would be able to repair Ajayi's nerves and give him some confidence.  We do need more height in the back line and to move Pieters to LB

Start Thomas-Asante and Dike
Having one unreliable shooter in the forward line is bad enough but two is wasteful.  BTA missed a sitter against Blackburn.  I know he was offside but he didn't know that at the time.  Dike is a lumbering giant atm; when he gets faster then he can play more than 15 mins.



Wallace from the left
The only reason to move Wallace from Right wing half is that we have bought Albrighton - yet another pensioner good for a half a game or so.  It's mad to ruin the effectiveness of one of our best players in order to accommodate a panic buy.


So is the option to not create chances because the lads up top can't finish?

If not Thomas-Asante and Dike, who would you have more confidence in hitting the target? Diangana? Albrighton? Grant?

I'm not suggesting this to accommodate Albrighton but as we attack with our left back given more licence than the right back generally, the left wide player has more opportunity to be a goal threat and I'd rather Wallace be that threat than Albrighton.

Do you have any suggestions as to what we could do or do you think the squad is too weak regardless?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on February 19, 2023, 10:03:54 PM
Interesting, my take



Start Thomas-Asante and Dike
Having one unreliable shooter in the forward line is bad enough but two is wasteful.  BTA missed a sitter against Blackburn.  I know he was offside but he didn't know that at the time.  Dike is a lumbering giant atm; when he gets faster then he can play more than 15 mins.
Dear me sounds like BTA is written off for missing a sitter when he was offside. Don't all strikers miss chances they should put away now and then...especially at Championship level ? Does one negative wipe out all the positives we've we've seen so far ?
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on February 20, 2023, 04:10:51 AM
Dear me sounds like BTA is written off for missing a sitter when he was offside. Don't all strikers miss chances they should put away now and then...especially at Championship level ? Does one negative wipe out all the positives we've we've seen so far ?
I don't think that was suggested at all, simply that playing both stikers together would not be fruitful .
For me BTA over Dike at present certainly, but playing the two of them together from the start is not the answer.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on February 20, 2023, 07:44:17 AM
I don't think that was suggested at all, simply that playing both stikers together would not be fruitful .
For me BTA over Dike at present certainly, but playing the two of them together from the start is not the answer.
It was describing both as unreliable shooters. We haven't seen either miss a succession of chances as yet. Lack of clear cut chances is more the current problem.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: iwastherein68 on February 20, 2023, 08:36:34 AM
It was describing both as unreliable shooters. We haven't seen either miss a succession of chances as yet. Lack of clear cut chances is more the current problem.
Problem is that we don't have a "reliable shooter" in the squad, that does not undermine BTA's overall contribution to the team which is excellent.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: LiamTheBaggie on February 20, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
I don't think we're likely to see the BTA/Dike partnership.

If we lost one of them to injury then we'd be stuffed.  I think given we only have two strikers on our books then we're far more likely to alternate them both.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 23, 2023, 02:36:26 PM
Townsend's not a bad player but his nervy clearance led to Watford's first goal.   

I remember captaining a side in my thirties and I made a distinction between those players who loved having the ball at their feet more than they were scared of a heavy tackle and those that get rid of it - no matter where - as soon as anyone approached.  I would always favour the former even though I might have to insist that they should try passing every now and then.

I think Townsend belongs in the latter category especially after a nasty follow through tackle by Baldock of Sheffield Utd (who else?) which had him on the treatment table for several weeks.

Overall I would prefer to see Pieters at LB of our squad.  Still hoping that Corberan can coach some confidence into Ajayi.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 24, 2023, 07:28:37 AM
You know what they say about hope.........
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on February 27, 2023, 01:20:50 PM
A lot of people saying we're at our strongest with Wallace playing wide right, but he was coming through the middle when helping set up both of Dike's goals on Saturday.  Not classic crosses from the right. It looks like he has been given the freedom to roam across the midfield from where he can cause a lot of danger. Also, Swift very involved with both goals. He too needs to get on the ball where he can pick out the right passes. Both very creative players if we can get them on the ball in the right areas. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Atomic on February 27, 2023, 01:34:51 PM
A lot of people saying we're at our strongest with Wallace playing wide right, but he was coming through the middle when helping set up both of Dike's goals on Saturday.  Not classic crosses from the right. It looks like he has been given the freedom to roam across the midfield from where he can cause a lot of danger. Also, Swift very involved with both goals. He too needs to get on the ball where he can pick out the right passes. Both very important players if we can get them on the ball.

It's the starting position that's important. Wallace will start on the right but has licence to swap wings or to drift centrally. Similar to Swift who will drift to the left but does it from central position. They know when and how to do it when mentally they can survey what is around them. They are used to the familiarities of where they are on the pitch.

It may seem easy to ask players to start in an unfamiliar position but it isn't that simple. Sure they can all play in various areas but if you get three players who's performance suffers by only 5% by it then your team is 15% down in its effectivity.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 27, 2023, 02:38:42 PM
Theres a big difference between asking 1 player to play out of position as a one off to fill in for a game and CC shuffling multiple players around to fit in others. In those games we only competed for 45 mins and the damage was done by the time the changes came.

Now CC has accepted his idea doesn't work I expect the wins to continue coming.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on February 27, 2023, 04:57:26 PM
Theres a big difference between asking 1 player to play out of position as a one off to fill in for a game and CC shuffling multiple players around to fit in others. In those games we only competed for 45 mins and the damage was done by the time the changes came.

Now CC has accepted his idea doesn't work I expect the wins to continue coming.
I think the main difference in the performances between the Watford and M'Boro games was the application and determination of the players. Against Boro everyone was 100% committed for the 90 minutes, whereas v Watford they were a yard slower to the ball and more half-hearted in duels.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 27, 2023, 05:15:53 PM
I think the main difference in the performances between the Watford and M'Boro games was the application and determination of the players. Against Boro everyone was 100% committed for the 90 minutes, whereas v Watford they were a yard slower to the ball and more half-hearted in duels.

Not to mention the difference in playing styles between Watford and Boro.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 27, 2023, 06:25:12 PM
I think the main difference in the performances between the Watford and M'Boro games was the application and determination of the players. Against Boro everyone was 100% committed for the 90 minutes, whereas v Watford they were a yard slower to the ball and more half-hearted in duels.

Oh sure there are multiple factors but CC giving us a fighting chance for 90 minutes will produce better results than giving us 45 by and large.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 06, 2023, 05:05:33 PM
Looks like that's another one wrote off for the season already

"Joe Chapman
@ChapmanJ92
Diangana - increasingly likely we'll not see him again this season.

BTA - CC hoping for Huddersfield, if not Cardiff

Rogic - back training

Faal - involved tomorrow"
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 11, 2023, 05:29:12 PM
Lewis Cox said this morning that Palmer and Bartley should be back in full training next week so should be ok for after the break.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 25, 2023, 06:49:58 PM
Plenty of footage of Bartley and Palmer back in full training today so should get a decent number of players back for the next game.


Think it's 'only' Grady, Phillips, Kelly out for the season. Grant and Bryan also out.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 31, 2023, 02:17:30 PM
Bartley, Bryan, Grant and Palmer all back in full training according to CC.

DOS out for season and Moloumby out for 4 weeks.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 31, 2023, 02:21:58 PM
Bartley, Bryan, Grant and Palmer all back in full training according to CC.

DOS out for season and Moloumby out for 4 weeks.

Did he say anything about Pieters? Only ask as I know he's carrying a knock.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 31, 2023, 02:28:37 PM
Did he say anything about Pieters? Only ask as I know he's carrying a knock.

Not on the OS report.

Pieters posted on his Instagram that he's ready for the weekend so assuming fit
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 31, 2023, 05:26:35 PM
Nice one Gaz', cheers.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on April 20, 2023, 02:48:25 PM
It's interesting that the supposed "young core" I believed we were cultivating is actually probably now "peak".

Scanning through the squad in by minutes played we have plenty in their late 20s and early thirties, but once again it's players who at one point were brought in to reduce the age of the squad, but we've not found younger replacements so the squad has gradually got older again.

Furlong and Townsend are key examples of this. Townsend joined in 2018 as back up to Kieran Gibbs, and at the age of 25 he had his peak years ahead of him. He's now 30 and doesn't really have any competition for his place, with Zac Ashworth out on loan. When Conor was brought in, Gibbs was around 29 years old but had been ravaged by injury.

Darnell joined in 2019, I think at the age of 23, and he's now 27. He again has little competition for his place - him and Townsend are 4th and 2nd respectively for minutes played this year.

As I said at the beginning of my post, I had in my head we had a younger group, but actually they're not as young as you think:

Grady has just turned 25, Palmer is 26 and turning 27 in the summer. Grant is also 25, while BTA is 24. Even Dara O'Shea is 24.

These are all players who should be peaking in the next year or two, in my opinion.

Players under 23 with substantial minutes are:

Dike, but he'll be closer to 24 by the time he's back, as he's turning 23 soon.
TGH is only 21
Josh Griffiths is also 21, but I think Palmer is the right choice for now

And that's it. Molumby us 23 turning 24 this summer.

I know the crux of this post is "time passes, people get older", but it really highlights that refreshing the squad can't be a one-and-done thing. There needs to be a constant churn of players.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on April 20, 2023, 08:40:16 PM
Looking on the bright side of your post Mark, it's good that the players you list are 26 or younger. Palmer's age shouldn't be a worry as he has been out getting experience elsewhere and as a keeper you'd say his peak would be from now to 32 minimum.
It also shows the value of sending players out on loan as Griffiths now has over 100 appearances in senior football including 10 at championship level. Caleb Taylor seems to have had a full season of regular senior games out on loan.
Counting his international caps Dara O'Shea has over 140 appearances in senior football. TGH over 40.
How we handle the next intake from the academy, assuming they stay around, Cleary, Faal, Malcolm maybe 3 or 4 others will be interesting to see and may depend on the financial situation and finances being available to bring anyone else in. Aside from TGH and Griffiths it's fair to say there's a lack of players 20-23 who are regulars in the match day squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on April 26, 2023, 10:17:13 PM
It's hard to see who we build around next season or who we could sell to raise funds. We're probably hoping on somebody like Caleb Taylor or Alex Palmer raising you huge funds but that won't happen until January at the earliest.

Next season, Palmer, O'Shea and Taylor MIGHT be a decent defensive foundation, but it could equally be found wanting with the step up. Yokusku will still have 2 years at this performance level you would hope and Wallace at the very least can be useful on occasion but the rest feels very mid to lower half championship.

We some how need to find a goal scoring striker to get 15 plus goals, a creative midfielder, 2 wide players and you would think upgrades at full back as well. All of that needs to be done with zero budget and a recruitment department who have failed at every step in recent years.

Our best hope is that Corberan is able to use his own contact book to convince the likes of Guardiola and people in Spain and Italy to send us interesting loanees. We need a lot of parts to come together for next season to work now, especially as Ron Gourlay has near enough confirmed he won't be changing the Ron Gourlay led scouting model.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on April 26, 2023, 10:40:08 PM
I’ve been thinking about this for a while but I just can’t see any way we can turn things around. The main issue is obviously that whilst Lai in charge we have no money to spend. The only thing a club can do in that situation is go down the smart recruitment path, but we don’t have the personnel or system in place to do that and there is zero hope of it being put into place whilst Lai is owner.

Would have liked us to go down the Swansea route as painful as it has been for them, inevitably it’s starting to pay off. They’ve got some players like Cabango, Piroe and Grimes who are worth decent money now and the results have improved over time as their young players are developing. Effectively they released anyone who’s contract expired and only brought in U23 players. But they’ve got the scouting set up to do that and evidently we don’t.

I guess we just have to hope CC can pull some rabbits out the hat, which is a pretty disgraceful position for a football club to be in. Relying on head coaches - who average maybe 18 months in the modern game before being replaced - to sign players is a terrible idea, which we’ve seen time and time again.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dan on April 26, 2023, 10:40:19 PM
It's hard to see who we build around next season or who we could sell to raise funds. We're probably hoping on somebody like Caleb Taylor or Alex Palmer raising you huge funds but that won't happen until January at the earliest.

Next season, Palmer, O'Shea and Taylor MIGHT be a decent defensive foundation, but it could equally be found wanting with the step up. Yokusku will still have 2 years at this performance level you would hope and Wallace at the very least can be useful on occasion but the rest feels very mid to lower half championship.

We some how need to find a goal scoring striker to get 15 plus goals, a creative midfielder, 2 wide players and you would think upgrades at full back as well. All of that needs to be done with zero budget and a recruitment department who have failed at every step in recent years.

Our best hope is that Corberan is able to use his own contact book to convince the likes of Guardiola and people in Spain and Italy to send us interesting loanees. We need a lot of parts to come together for next season to work now, especially as Ron Gourlay has near enough confirmed he won't be changing the Ron Gourlay led scouting model.

Corberan seems to have some sort of link with Chelsea which is probably our best "hope" of any decent youth coming in. He signed Colwill and Anjorin on loan from them (and also Jon Russell permanently) in his last season at Huddersfield.

Considering Hutchinson nearly ended up here in January (which, based on our complete lack of trying to sign premier league youth players in recent seasons suggests to me it was probably a Corberan linked move), i'd hope we can at least exploit that next season. Hutchinson for one I hope we can go for again next season. Other possibilities are Casadei an Italian under 21 who's out at Reading who they paid 15m for, Lewis Hall who got some premier league time this season but is unlikely to feature near their squad next year, and maybe even Chukwuemeka - though he will probably be more likely for a premier league loan.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on April 26, 2023, 11:25:48 PM
We have to raise funds through player sales and slash the wage bill and that is just to get through next season without sliding into administration. The players we might build around are the few that are most saleable if we keep them then the wage bill has to be cut even further.

I don't think we can be in anyway optimistic about bolstering the squad with any real quality unless we stumble into some dramatically under priced talent in the loan/free agent market. We don't have a any sort of process or competent personnel to achieve this task.

We are basically up the creek without a paddle

I posted this analysis of the current squad (which like it or not is where we start from)

http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=27859.msg898751#msg898751  (http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=27859.msg898751#msg898751)

which was pretty downbeat. The situation has got considerably worse with the Dike injury he can't be sold in the summer now but nor will we get anything from him much before October.

I cannot see anything good happening in the summer.

Sorry to be such a doom monger but that is how I see things right now.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on April 27, 2023, 04:05:42 AM
Everybody is for sale in the summer. I hope we get rid of all those on a free at the end of the season.

There's a few I would like us to retain my line up would be:

                    Palmer
New rb  Oshea Taylor new Lb
               Okay molumby
New rw  New no 10 New lw
                    New cf

Subs: TGH, BTA, Griffiths New players.

The rest of the squad I wouldn't have any issue seeing the back of which is damning


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Blowee on April 27, 2023, 06:57:42 AM
It all depends on what we realistically see as our objective for next season. Is it not to survive in the Championship? If that’s the case I think we’ll have enough to do that under CC. With this current squad we are over a season a top 10 side. Some will leave and that’s a good thing. Hopefully a few younger players will step up. In addition, bringing in one or two hungry players from the lower leagues and utilising the loan market will improve us. Corberán turned things around at Huddersfield from a far worse starting position in one summer. It’s off the pitch that things are most worrying. The owner, structure of scouting and financial situation are far more important than the coach or current squad.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on April 27, 2023, 07:24:02 AM
Everybody is for sale in the summer. I hope we get rid of all those on a free at the end of the season.

There's a few I would like us to retain my line up would be:

                    Palmer
New rb  Oshea Taylor new Lb
               Okay molumby
New rw  New no 10 New lw
                    New cf

Subs: TGH, BTA, Griffiths New players.

The rest of the squad I wouldn't have any issue seeing the back of which is damning

I read new LB and new RB and you already have my vote.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionfan1983 on April 27, 2023, 08:15:02 AM
Predicting the team line up for next season is too much of an ask

We are in financial trouble and an owner (Who everyone knows what he is) & no parachute payments.

If anything will we be selling a number of players. getting in loans & almost a different team

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on April 27, 2023, 01:22:49 PM
After looking at the contracts thread I thought Kelly signed a 2 year contract so we still have him for another year?
What would people do regarding the centre half situation?
I think everyone would acknowledge Dara is a shoe in or would people play him right back given club foot furlong can’t be released yet or is the highly thought of Ingram worth a chance?
But surely if he was doing that well we would have blooded him already?
Long term is Taylor ready or does he need another year but in the championship on loan?
Pieters and Bryan will be released leaving us with Kipre,Ajayi and Bartley
Bartley has a year left do we think ahead and ship him out on loan and keep Ajayi and Kipre?
Kipre might command a small fee but he is better than Bartley and Ajayi with the ball at his feet
Giving we won’t be spending a money what are people’s opinions?
Midfield we are stuck with Chalobah for another year and also Molumby,yokuslu and TGH
We have people who can run but can’t pass and people with better passing who are not has mobile, a real conundrum
Do we give a fit Mowatt a chance ?
Rogic will be released I would imagine
If Forest stay up surely we should be back in for o brien on loan
Wide and up front is the major concern
We need 2 strikers or minimum of one and cleary,faal or Malcolm finally get a chance
Grant needs shipping out on loan and hopefully diangana will be fit and Phillips plays his normal dozen games a season
We really need to utilise the loan market for young premier league talent as the freebies tend to be 28+ and we have enough of those
Busy summer hopefully
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on April 27, 2023, 01:59:30 PM
Next year will most likely be a consolidation exercise, stabilising Championship mid table and trying to rebuild around emerging youth players. ( If our awful financial situation allows this).

That would be the least chaotic scenario as far as the a club is concerned and a forced longer term approach.

 Hopefully CC will stay around to oversee this Great Reset.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 01, 2023, 03:10:57 PM
As we move towards the eve of the new season, I thought it would be good to pick this up and keep a track through the rest of the window:

GK - Palmer, Griffiths, Button, Cann - I very much expect Button will be off. Palmer and Griffiths are strong and in our position, we will have to rely on youth for that third spot. If one of Palmer or Griffiths were sold, we would need to bring in a senior keeper.

RB - Furlong, Ingram - Ingram has played lots of pre-season minutes but I don't really expect him to be in the mix for appearances unless it is the League Cup. I think we need cover or ideally, competition for Furlong.

LB - Townsend, Reach - With Reach out for 4 months, I wonder if anyone we might bring in to cover rb could provide cover at lb too. Pieters does offer cover here also.

CB - Ajayi, Kipre, Bartley, Taylor, Pieters - Good strength in depth in terms of numbers but this is the area of the pitch that concerns me most. We have not only lost O'Shea's defensive qualities from cb but we have lost his ability to break the lines and his all round passing rage. Kipre may be closest with his on-ball ability but I remain unsure about him defensively but he has played lots of minutes in pre-season which suggests he may get minutes in there. Ajayi has played lots of pre-season minutes with Kipre but has many of the same defensive frailties as Kipre. You then have Pieters who could compliment one of the two and bring balance as a left footed option. We then have Bartley who as we know is a good penalty box defender but struggles playing out from the back and even struggles in a mid or high block, he seems an uneasy fit with Corberan's style and it was telling that he didn't get back in when he returned to fitness last season. Taylor I haven't seen but from the data looks a lot like Bartley, of course that could be just how he was required to play at Cheltenham. Bartley and Taylor would likely be a very effective pair played in a low block however that isn't how we set up. How Corberan gets the balance right here will be interesting; for what he is after, I am not sure the quality is there.

CM - Yokuslu, Molumby, Mowatt, Gardner-Hickman, Chalobah - It is clear from his failed move to Israel that Chalobah isn't fancied. If they are able to, I expect he will be moved on. Yokuslu and Molumby are the starting pair and Mowatt gives options for us in there, more so when we have the ball in games. I worry about mobility without Molumby in there. Gardner-Hickman doesn't seem like a natural fit in our system but is another option. I feel we lack a bit of mobility and physicality in there and wonder if Chalobah and Gardner-Hickman depart and a replacement brought in.

RM/LM - Wallace, Phillips, Diangana, Sarmiento, Fellowes - I think we have decent numbers and quality in the wide areas, you could also add Reach and Gardner-Hickman as options here. It will be nice to see Wallace rotated a little more this year and with Phillips and Diangana's respective injury records, we could see Fellowes get some minutes at times.

AM/SS - Swift - Swift is clearly the starter here however Sarmiento and potentially Maja (judging by Corberan's comments upon his signing) are both options. I am quite comfortable with this and think this provides decent quality for this position.

CF - Thomas-Assante, Maja, Dike, Malcolm - Unsure of the quality of the options but we have players that can play up top, I do fear this could be an area of weakness again if none of those listed can find their shooting boots. There will be good competition for places when Dike returns but until then, might be difficult. I wonder if we supplement our forward options with a 6-month loan until Dike returns as Maja and maybe even Thomas-Assante provide depth for other areas.

With our financial weakness, we will be susceptible to unexpected bids coming in (see Palmer) so the above could change a lot. I think there will be some trading to be done, probably the central midfield area could see the most turnover. The centre back area looks to me, to be the most unpredictable as we go in to the first few games.

Do we have enough quality? I worry about goal scoring and am not convinced by our centre backs. If a forward hits a purple patch of form and Corberan can get the centre back balance right then we have a chance, of course we need to stay fit generally as too many injuries would be hard to deal with.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: overseas baggie on August 01, 2023, 03:22:11 PM

You haven’t mentioned Kelly - isn’t he also full back cover until/unless we bring in another full back, especially at RB with Pieters covering Townsend at LB?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 01, 2023, 08:43:53 PM
You haven’t mentioned Kelly - isn’t he also full back cover until/unless we bring in another full back, especially at RB with Pieters covering Townsend at LB?

He's injured currently but the fact that Corberan bombed him out and then he went on loan, suggests to me that he isn't in the reckoning. I could have included him though and said that.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: tlms-p23 on August 02, 2023, 12:28:20 PM
Having a little look at Maja. He's link play looks excellent here. Watch the first 90 seconds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7PRgyAUdYo&t=139s&ab_channel=LeTalent

Might not get so much time on the ball in the Championship, but evident he has the ability to drop deep, link play with one and two touch, pick a pass to the wingers and get into the box.

V excited to see him play in person.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on August 02, 2023, 12:49:36 PM
On an optimistic note, for which i am not renowned, that squad actually looks pretty sound on paper.
It is light, but there are some strong players in there. Onwards!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: brummyroader on August 22, 2023, 09:53:00 AM
I like the 3 at the back as no pairing of our centre halves fills me with confidence, and you always feel there’s a mistake a game. But the the 2 in midfield with no link between them and the front 3 doesn’t work for me, Swift is wasted on the left, Wallace is non existent as per the last 8 months and BTA can’t hold the ball up to save his life.

I’d like to see a 3-4-1-2 on Saturday, Swift behind a front 2 of Maja & BTA. Wallace RWB and keep Phillips LWB. I’d like to think this would give us more options and control on the ball.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggiebof on August 22, 2023, 10:21:18 AM
I like the 3 at the back as no pairing of our centre halves fills me with confidence, and you always feel there’s a mistake a game. But the the 2 in midfield with no link between them and the front 3 doesn’t work for me, Swift is wasted on the left, Wallace is non existent as per the last 8 months and BTA can’t hold the ball up to save his life.


It would be interesting to see some touch maps for the players you have listed above because, when we have possession, I don't think we have looked too different. Swift certainly comes central, Phillips is still high on the left and Wallace goes wide right. Molumby and Furlong even still sometimes switch.

I do take the point that we have less of an out ball as we are defending more in a 541 as opposed to the 442 we utilised for the majority of last season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 22, 2023, 11:05:28 AM
I like the 3 at the back as no pairing of our centre halves fills me with confidence, and you always feel there’s a mistake a game. But the the 2 in midfield with no link between them and the front 3 doesn’t work for me, Swift is wasted on the left, Wallace is non existent as per the last 8 months and BTA can’t hold the ball up to save his life.

I’d like to see a 3-4-1-2 on Saturday, Swift behind a front 2 of Maja & BTA. Wallace RWB and keep Phillips LWB. I’d like to think this would give us more options and control on the ball.

I agree 3-4-1-2 settling into 3-5-2 when without the ball.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: WBAinDEVON on August 22, 2023, 03:50:04 PM
when was the last time we actually played well for large parts of a football match, memory seems to think it all went pete tong after playing away to Coventry last season. the football has been mediocre since
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Droitwich Baggie on August 22, 2023, 09:24:57 PM
Unwanted personel...Unfortunately get rid of (even if it means giving them away) and save their wages.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Adder on August 24, 2023, 08:16:39 AM
I like the 3 at the back as no pairing of our centre halves fills me with confidence, and you always feel there’s a mistake a game. But the the 2 in midfield with no link between them and the front 3 doesn’t work for me, Swift is wasted on the left, Wallace is non existent as per the last 8 months and BTA can’t hold the ball up to save his life.

I’d like to see a 3-4-1-2 on Saturday, Swift behind a front 2 of Maja & BTA. Wallace RWB and keep Phillips LWB. I’d like to think this would give us more options and control on the ball.
I agree that Swift should be the link behind the front 2. I'm a bit concerned that playing Phillips and Wallace as wingbacks will lose their freedom to drift in towards goal, link up, get shots off (as at Blackburn with the Phillips goal). It could mean even less bodies arriving in the box.
From the YouTube footage of Maja, a bit part of his game seems to be dropping in a bit and playing passes to players running beyond him. BTA would be the obvious one to time runs and run through on goal, but although his work rate is high and pace respectable he's certainly not a player who's pace will frighten defenses (in fact I don't think we have one of those at the club).
We'll see how it goes. We maybe in a better place as far as keeping possession goes but how much goal threat we'll carry remains to be seen.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 27, 2023, 12:07:41 PM
Here's an alternative blueprint for clubs of limited means:  Queen's Park who didn't have their own ground almost in the Scottish premier

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/queens-park-moneyball-tactics-scotland-oldest-football-club-premiership-2278730?ico=related_article_inline

30 specialists
Changing the way young players are identified and coached
Looking in other academies for unrated late developers
Not putting too much emphasis on physical strength at an early age (look for balance and agility)
exclusively signing players of 22 years of age and under
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: graka on August 27, 2023, 10:25:22 PM
I’m just sat here wondering what everyone’s choice of system and line up people would pick with our current squad obviously omitting Dike and Reach who are long term injuries
On current form and limited options my choices change
I would originally play diangana and Wallace and omit Phillips but CC gets a tune out of Phillips
I like swift I think he’s an intelligent footballer
Then there’s right wing back or right back, we really have limited options other than club foot
All of our centre halves have there faults and playing 3 of them doesn’t cure this
What are people’s thoughts?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on August 28, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
OK accepting the challenge, I think that when the game against the Terriers comes up, we must experiment:

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: lewisant on August 28, 2023, 11:14:06 AM
OK i would prefer 4231, i'm not sure if he'll revert to it. Whatever we do I want to see Sarmiento, Maja and BTA start, way more potent up top.

Thinking he'll be back 3...it's a 352 of...with BTA and Maja but Maja dropping back into the 10. The full back and wing back areas become problematic because you don't want to leave the back 3 exposed but if you keep Furlong and Phillips in that leaves just that leaves just 5 spots for Maja, BTA, Swift, Sarmiento, Wallace, Okay, Molumby and even Grady when he's fit and if he's still with us.

I think a back 3 supplements how poor we are at central defence but then negatively impacts us further up the pitch.

So i've not really said anything in this post other than I have no idea what we should do.

If it was up to me I'd have a 4231/433 but I don't know who would start centrally.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: liverbaggie on August 28, 2023, 11:23:40 AM
Ive kept saying 352 all along for this group, its an attacking and defensive set up
However what i would say is that i would like to see our back 3 just a little wider apart and not to narrow especially if the opposition wide players stick to the lines, apart from that this is the sytem for me please, carry on CC
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on August 28, 2023, 12:49:30 PM
None of our Centre Halves is comfortable on the left side of a the defence. Pieters is but in the absence of O'Shea there does not seem to be a two man combination that works hence the 3, which I agree creates other issues.

Wallace looks lost but I feel this is more to do with style than position he really isn't a player that is used to or suited to a  possession heavy approach. When Sarmiento joined I thought he was a threat to Swift's place in the starting XI but I suspect he will replace Wallace over the course of the season.

The other traditional winger at the club Diangana wasn't first choice anyway even when we were playing a 4-2-3-1 and now if anything it is harder  to see him making much of a contribution if he remains at the club.

If you were planning to play a 3-4-3 you wouldn't hire  Yokuslu as a central midfielder. Yet we don't have a midfield combination that has both the engine and the skills to be an effective double 8. Much as I love Molumby his limited skill set is more exposed in a 3-4-3 than in a 4-2-3-1 and while Mowatt is better on the ball he really does not cover the ground enough to be effective in the role.

On the other hand coming in from the left seems to suit Swift who I think had his best game for us on Saturday.

It really is less than ideal but it has been that way for a number of seasons except when Bruce had this group in a 4-2-3-1 which kind of picked itself but was equally kind of useless.

A couple of signings could make a lot of difference to this situation and the return of Dike gives us a different option. However for the time being with what we currently have a 3-4-3 might be the best fit.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on August 29, 2023, 10:29:50 AM
I've pondered this question for a long while, and I really think it demonstrates the constraints or difficulties that CC is working under.

In my ideal world I would have kept TGH as he I think his versatility is key for my system - I'd have him nominally as a right back but inverting into the centre - similar to how Ange Postecoglu uses his full backs. I personally don't like 2 man midfields, so inverting at least one full back gives us a solid rest- defence.

One question to answer is where we want our width to come from - wingers or full/wing backs? CC currently uses our wingbacks for this role, I think? I'd be more minded to have Wallace out on the right touchline. There's no reason the opposite has to function the same way, especially at the moment with no fit left-footer winger.

At the back, I'd be more minded to keep Kipré and potentially try Taylor as a more aerial dominant centre back. This then brings me to our of possession shape.

Currently we play a 5-4-1 when we're back in our own half. I haven't really examined our press but it's clearly working as we've got a couple of goals from it. I wonder if we're playing a hybrid press which is very much in vogue at the moment. I'd prefer a 4-4-2 press if possible - again, this could have worked with TGH but less likely now.

Taking all this together, I'm really struggling to put a team together.

Trying something left field:

Palmer

Kipré (Yes, Kipré as right back)
Ajayi
Taylor
Townsend

Yokuslu
Molumby

Wallace
Swift
Phillips

BTA

The idea would be that Townsend has license to join the attack, providing width on the left. Phillips would drift infield so in possession we would play like:

Kipré
Ajayi
Taylor

Yokuslu
Molumby

Wallace
Swift
Phillips
Townsend

BTA

And then from there you could effectively go into a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 press, or even a 3-5-2.

The main problem is Kipré as a narrow right full back - most wouldn't trust him there, and I'm certainly not sure, but it gives a lot of freedom elsewhere.

Ho hum, it's all a bit of a pain
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on August 29, 2023, 11:56:28 AM
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-carlos-corberan-told-cedric-27608534
Reading Carlos' interview in the B Mail today tells you a lot about how he wants us to play. Comes as no suprise that, in most circumstances, he wants us to play out from the back. Football is too beautiful a game to be going long ball, and I'm with him on that.
A lot of fans think a defender's job is to defend and that's it. What they seem to forget is that the strikers are very dependant on the type of service they get. If all they get is long hoofs from the back, the odds of them getting possesson are a lot less. They're hoping the ball drops right or the defender makes an error. However most decent defenders are able to cope with long balls.

I can see that Carlos is trying to get better service into the front men by playing through the midfield and down the flanks. That can only really work by starting passing moves out from the back.  It clearly involves alot of coaching, especially for the likes of Ajayi and Kipre, but I think both have the basics to make further progress. But as CC says, they have to stay concentrated for the full 90 minutes.  You then need good technicians to feed the passes from Ajayi and Kipre into goal threatening positions. 

Some goals will always arrive through set pieces, Furlong's throws, or Swift's free kicks and corners. However, most should arrive through open play.     
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albionic on August 29, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
I think that this squad STILL relies on confidence far more than most, when they get a couple of results they will get on a roll, but once they lose some confidence they don't have the battlers who will fight through it.
Hopefully the last couple of somewhat flattering results will bolster confidence and the roll will gain momentum.

Saw it under Bilic both ways (falling over the line to get promoted)
Saw the lack of confidence under Bruce
Saw it when Ismael came in and then the wheels came off big style
Saw it last season under CC

Confidence seems to be an issue with the club beyond the current crop, do we have a psych team working with the players?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: robnewbold on August 29, 2023, 03:06:58 PM
The lack of confidence that we had when Button was keeper is still there. Every time someone lobs a ball in to the 6 yard box our 'defence' freezes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 01, 2023, 11:02:33 PM
So as transfer window closes i will stick with 6th place as my expectations.

If they flog everyone for nothing in Jan window i will revisit :D
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on September 01, 2023, 11:06:04 PM
Possibly with a ball playing rb in pipa we might return to a back 4 and get Bartley back in side. Have Phillips further forward and play Wallace in his actual position...
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 01, 2023, 11:29:46 PM
Possibly with a ball playing rb in pipa we might return to a back 4 and get Bartley back in side. Have Phillips further forward and play Wallace in his actual position...

E&S reporter earlier from the press conference this morning re teams news, Ajayi is struggling with illness so wouldn't be surprised if Bartley starts tomorrow. I presume Pipa will on bench at most tomorrow and probably held back until post international break. Let's see how Furlong reacts tomorrow.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on September 01, 2023, 11:31:16 PM
Pipa can't play tomorrow. He has to be registered by midday today I think.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 01, 2023, 11:51:07 PM
Pipa can't play tomorrow. He has to be registered by midday today I think.

Good point. Furlong is under spotlight big time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 20, 2023, 09:56:33 PM
A few interesting stats tonight from the sky commentators.

Albion have so far used the least players of any team in the division - 19 players.
Albion have the 2nd highest average age so far in the division after Sheff Wed.

Two stats that for me, don’t sit well together.

We could start hitting trouble by November/December time.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: baggie82 on September 20, 2023, 10:03:49 PM
A few interesting stats tonight from the sky commentators.

Albion have so far used the least players of any team in the division - 19 players.
Albion have the 2nd highest average age so far in the division after Sheff Wed.

Two stats that for me, don’t sit well together.

We could start hitting trouble by November/December time.

We have a strong squad, so I don’t see that. Plenty of options to come in and do a job as required. Only upfront we are light, BTA or nobody at present. Plenty of options elsewhere.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Baggies on September 20, 2023, 10:38:35 PM
We have a strong squad, so I don’t see that. Plenty of options to come in and do a job as required. Only upfront we are light, BTA or nobody at present. Plenty of options elsewhere.

The squad on paper is a reasonable.

I'm talking about the double whammy of using less players than anyone in the division and those players also being older than all but one squad in the division. The working assumption being younger players can usually play more games at a higher intensity, whereas older players do need to manage burnout. Will our smaller, older squad start to struggle after a number of games without much rotation?

I'm not sure it's a great mix.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on September 21, 2023, 11:52:48 AM
And yet the head coach gets criticised for taking players off after an hour or so and giving others game time. That said I was glad Chalobah didn't replace Yokuslu last night. Nathaniel did ok for the most part but I prefer Okay.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on September 29, 2023, 10:09:14 AM
Sarmiento got a lot of flack for last week's game but I like having two wingers that will take on their man.  Otherwise you might just employ wing-halves to do the crossing.  Nothing disconcerts a well-organised   low block team more than a guy can get past them.  Such teams can put their heads and their heft to crosses all day long;  Not the case when crosses are low and coming from the bye-line and they're facing their own goal.

JS is feisty and doesn't shirk a tackle.  He needs some coaching about defensive duties and when to release the ball to an overlapping player.

Because BTA is not a reliable scorer and seemed to have a tired touch last weekend, I think that the team needs three from Diangana, Sarmiento, Phillips  and Swift on the pitch at any time to have a chance of getting a goal.

Without Maja or Dike, It's going to be a difficult few weeks leading up to xmas.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on November 24, 2023, 05:45:51 PM
Personally as a back line of four I would have Ajayi and Kipre as CBs; Ipswich are young and fast. 
Include Bartley if we play 3 at the back then . 

A weak point is he cannot turn on the ball; if he gets it facing goal, it can only go back to Palmer.   If he gets it square, he mostly passes square.  It's so predictable that opposition teams must have picked it up.  His only forward option is a boot to the wing which doesn't often find its mark. 

Although at a higher level, Maguire's games for England display a similar flaw.  Why Southgate persists with him is beyond me.
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on January 02, 2024, 12:57:04 PM
For a number of games now, I've felt that Townsend is the worst along the back line.  Skill-wise he's moderately OK but he's timid and often volleys, hooks the ball away first time it comes to him or turns it back if threatened by an advancing (menacing?) opponent.  I've not seem him win many 50-50 challenges and he's not especially good controlling and turning.  My conclusion is that Pipa should be given a run out at LB.

By contrast for all some complain, Furlong is brave; he wins challenges and headers into the box.

As regards the FA cup, I think it must be used as an opportunity to give some of the reserves a chance to show what they can do.  Aldershot will be really up for it but - FFS - our youngsters should surely be up for it as well?   I speak as one who may have to go underground round here if we lose but for the sake of the club, we must  spare  some of the first team and give the youngsters an outing.

Against Swansea we sent a lot of balls into the box but quite often there was only BTA there.  Unfortunately, there's a strong chance that Dike might never regain the robustness he showed prior to serial injury.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 02, 2024, 01:35:58 PM
The issue with Pipa (or any right footer) at left back is it likely upsets the way we've been progressing the ball. From what I've seen, generally Townsend is our widest player on the left during build-up - Diangana is often more in the inside-left channel. A right-footed left back will have an inclination to pass inside rather than up the line.

On the right, Furlong usually underlaps while Wallace stays wide, which I think is the opposite of what we do on the left. If we had Pipa at left back, you'd expect him to also underlap, which would necessitate our left winger hugging the touchline more.

It's not that it can't work, but it would require a shift in how we build-up play, which for a 3rd round Cup match vs lower league opposition isn't ideal.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 03, 2024, 08:01:11 AM
The issue with Pipa (or any right footer) at left back is it likely upsets the way we've been progressing the ball. From what I've seen, generally Townsend is our widest player on the left during build-up - Diangana is often more in the inside-left channel. A right-footed left back will have an inclination to pass inside rather than up the line.

On the right, Furlong usually underlaps while Wallace stays wide, which I think is the opposite of what we do on the left. If we had Pipa at left back, you'd expect him to also underlap, which would necessitate our left winger hugging the touchline more.

It's not that it can't work, but it would require a shift in how we build-up play, which for a 3rd round Cup match vs lower league opposition isn't ideal.


Pipa at left back with Reach in front of him if playing with a central back two?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 03, 2024, 01:21:59 PM
With the story on the official site about Ajayi and Dianganas selections, does that mean we are keeping Kipre and BTA? We really couldn’t afford to lose those too as well so hopefully it’s a bit of good news
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 03, 2024, 01:43:59 PM
With the story on the official site about Ajayi and Dianganas selections, does that mean we are keeping Kipre and BTA? We really couldn’t afford to lose those too as well so hopefully it’s a bit of good news

BTA wasn't called up by Ghana. Kipré is uncapped for Ivory Coast and hasn't been called up either
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on January 03, 2024, 01:50:05 PM
BTA wasn't called up by Ghana. Kipré is uncapped for Ivory Coast and hasn't been called up either

Given he was in the provisional squad could he get a late call up in the event of an injury to one of their forwards before the tournament begins?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on January 03, 2024, 02:09:49 PM
Given he was in the provisional squad could he get a late call up in the event of an injury to one of their forwards before the tournament begins?

Presumably, yes.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: johnny Cash on January 13, 2024, 06:37:19 PM
Think Mowatt, Fellows and Kipre are out of contract this summer. Based on current form that’s huge losses if we lose them all.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 10, 2024, 10:05:23 AM
I noted against B'ham that, when we had the ball at the back,  Mowbray boxed our midfield two with four sometimes five players.  This induced Palmer to kick long on many occasions but TM didn't mind this as he reckoned our forwards had no aerial effect.

Against such a tactic I would have a midfield three and that might be why M'Vila has been signed.  Like some others here, I would have preferred  to field Whitwell.

I can't make up my mind about Swift.  Some matches he changes the game, but most often he floats about making half-hearted challenges (when was the last time he won the ball?) and the odd flicked pass.   I wonder whether his elegance isn't a bit of a luxury in today's hard running Championship.  Maybe rather than starting, he should come on later in the game.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: benalbion on February 18, 2024, 06:12:39 PM
With the new owners it got me thinking is a long awaited overall of the squad going to happen. obviuosly its not going to happen over night but hopefully with time it finally might. We have watched for years how poor and inconsistent our squad is and now how CC has worked miracles to get us where we are. lets be honest we all thought this season was going to be disastrous and these players have struggled to get us out the championship regardless of who was manager. so how many of our current players would you actually keep if they are all put on the chopping block and with the aim of becoming an established premier league team...(i know everyone has their own favourites/opinions on players and might not agree just trying to make an honest assessment on the task ahead for the new owners and how bad our squad has become)

Palmer/Griffiths - Keep. young and with more experience im sure they have a bright future

Furlong - not good enough - sell/release
Townsend - not good enough - sell/release
Bartley - not good enough - sell/release
Kipre - had a good season but still not good enough for premier league - sell/release
Ajayi - not good enough - sell/release
Kelly - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pieters - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pipa - havent seen enough of him - sell/release

Molumby - runs around a lot but not good enough - sell/release
Wallace - inconsistent hasnt torn up trees as expected - sell/release
Phillips - too old -sell/release
Diangana - not good enough - sell/release
Chalobah - not good enough - sell/release
Swift - not torn up trees like wallace, also been inconsistent but there is a quality player in there - keep
Reach - Worse player i have seen in an Albion shirt for 40 years - sell/release
Mowatt - not good enough - sell/release
Yokuslu - one of few quality players we have that i think can still do a job in the prem - keep
Maja - not seen enough of him
Grant - stole a living not good enough - sell/release
Thomas-asante - like most fans say he is what you pay £300,000 for, not good enough - sell/release
Jhonston - not seen enough of him
Dike - looks a handful and could be a good player but obviously seriously injury prone - sell/release
Fellows - A Gem - keep at all costs
Marshall - on loan
Weimann - on loan

(not included youth which i dont see enough of to judge)

Its this the honest state of our squad that only 3 outfield players i think would be good enough for the prem?


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on February 18, 2024, 06:18:20 PM
With the new owners it got me thinking is a long awaited overall of the squad going to happen. obviuosly its not going to happen over night but hopefully with time it finally might. We have watched for years how poor and inconsistent our squad is and now how CC has worked miracles to get us where we are. lets be honest we all thought this season was going to be disastrous and these players have struggled to get us out the championship regardless of who was manager. so how many of our current players would you actually keep if they are all put on the chopping block and with the aim of becoming an established premier league team...(i know everyone has their own favourites/opinions on players and might not agree just trying to make an honest assessment on the task ahead for the new owners and how bad our squad has become)

Palmer/Griffiths - Keep. young and with more experience im sure they have a bright future

Furlong - not good enough - sell/release
Townsend - not good enough - sell/release
Bartley - not good enough - sell/release
Kipre - had a good season but still not good enough for premier league - sell/release
Ajayi - not good enough - sell/release
Kelly - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pieters - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pipa - havent seen enough of him - sell/release

Molumby - runs around a lot but not good enough - sell/release
Wallace - inconsistent hasnt torn up trees as expected - sell/release
Phillips - too old -sell/release
Diangana - not good enough - sell/release
Chalobah - not good enough - sell/release
Swift - not torn up trees like wallace, also been inconsistent but there is a quality player in there - keep
Reach - Worse player i have seen in an Albion shirt for 40 years - sell/release
Mowatt - not good enough - sell/release
Yokuslu - one of few quality players we have that i think can still do a job in the prem - keep
Maja - not seen enough of him
Grant - stole a living not good enough - sell/release
Thomas-asante - like most fans say he is what you pay £300,000 for, not good enough - sell/release
Jhonston - not seen enough of him
Dike - looks a handful and could be a good player but obviously seriously injury prone - sell/release
Fellows - A Gem - keep at all costs
Marshall - on loan
Weimann - on loan

(not included youth which i dont see enough of to judge)

Its this the honest state of our squad that only 3 outfield players i think would be good enough for the prem?

We're not in the Premier league, you're comment on CK says it all.

You do know when you say sell/release for most of those it is only release as they are out of contract.

We're still hampered by losses and ffp, so just how are we going to replace all those?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: benalbion on February 18, 2024, 06:33:11 PM
like i said in the post its not going to happen over night it was just an assessment on the squad who i thought was good enough for the premier league. i wasnt saying they still couldnt do a job in the championship for now and as you say it is impossisble to sell them all
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on February 18, 2024, 09:15:43 PM
With the new owners it got me thinking is a long awaited overall of the squad going to happen. obviuosly its not going to happen over night but hopefully with time it finally might. We have watched for years how poor and inconsistent our squad is and now how CC has worked miracles to get us where we are. lets be honest we all thought this season was going to be disastrous and these players have struggled to get us out the championship regardless of who was manager. so how many of our current players would you actually keep if they are all put on the chopping block and with the aim of becoming an established premier league team...(i know everyone has their own favourites/opinions on players and might not agree just trying to make an honest assessment on the task ahead for the new owners and how bad our squad has become)

Palmer/Griffiths - Keep. young and with more experience im sure they have a bright future

Furlong - not good enough - sell/release
Townsend - not good enough - sell/release
Bartley - not good enough - sell/release
Kipre - had a good season but still not good enough for premier league - sell/release
Ajayi - not good enough - sell/release
Kelly - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pieters - not good enough too old - sell/release
Pipa - havent seen enough of him - sell/release

Molumby - runs around a lot but not good enough - sell/release
Wallace - inconsistent hasnt torn up trees as expected - sell/release
Phillips - too old -sell/release
Diangana - not good enough - sell/release
Chalobah - not good enough - sell/release
Swift - not torn up trees like wallace, also been inconsistent but there is a quality player in there - keep
Reach - Worse player i have seen in an Albion shirt for 40 years - sell/release
Mowatt - not good enough - sell/release
Yokuslu - one of few quality players we have that i think can still do a job in the prem - keep
Maja - not seen enough of him
Grant - stole a living not good enough - sell/release
Thomas-asante - like most fans say he is what you pay £300,000 for, not good enough - sell/release
Jhonston - not seen enough of him
Dike - looks a handful and could be a good player but obviously seriously injury prone - sell/release
Fellows - A Gem - keep at all costs
Marshall - on loan
Weimann - on loan

(not included youth which i dont see enough of to judge)

Its this the honest state of our squad that only 3 outfield players i think would be good enough for the prem?
We will tear up power league …
I’m assuming that you are thinking we get 22 players in on transfer deadline day.?
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 18, 2024, 09:33:53 PM
The following are out of contract this summer (as per Stan's Google sheet):

Bartley
Kipré
Kelly
Pieters

Mowatt
Phillips
Reach
Chalobah

With Pipa, Johnston and Marshall all going back to their parent clubs.

Of those, I'd say Kipré and Mowatt are worth keeping if better replacements can't be found/the wage bill allows. Kipré should have better offers based on his form, and it would be his last shot at a big contract.

Beyond that, those with deals expiring in 2025 are:

Griffiths

Furlong
Ajayi
C Taylor
Townsend

Swift
Molumby
Yokuslu

Diangana
BTA

So all of the above are for sale at the right price, but equally if we got rid of all of them we'd have about 5 players left! (Wallace, Fellows, Dike, Palmer & Maja).

I don't see anyone above us looking at Molumby - I think we're his ceiling, frankly.

A decision needs to be made re: Griffiths - if he's the future you get rid of Palmer, and if he isn't you get rid with a year left on his deal. Palmer at 27 still has 6 years of his peak, and has two years until his deal expires so I don't see why we'd get rid, unless Griffith is making huge strides. You can argue if Palmer is a keeper who is good enough if we go up, but right now that's not our concern.

In defence we don't have a player contracted beyond next summer (2025), so expect deals for players you don't think deserve them. I just don't see us replacing an entire back line. Furlong, Taylor, Ajayi and Kipré seem likely candidates, plus Townsend is our only proper left back (Ashworth isn't in the picture and is also out of contract after 2025).

Midfield we have two wingers tied down. I think the boat has saled on anyone taking Grady, and he can do a job so unless he's demanding huge wages I'd go back there to keep him. Also doesn't hurt he's left footed.

Dike and to a lesser extent Maja are both injury-hit, so you don't get rid of BTA unless you're confident one or both is fit to rotate, or we hope our scouts find someone to replace them. While BTA doesn't get a shed load of goals, he clearly is important for how we play out of possession and that can't be overlooked with Corberan as boss.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on February 18, 2024, 10:23:54 PM
While I think that Ben’s post is hard on some players, it did serve to remind me of just how average many of them are. Friday night was a further reminder of this too.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: benalbion on February 18, 2024, 10:35:30 PM
As I said...I know we are not going to get rid of everyone I'm not an idiot I was just trying to make a point of how poor our squad is if we get promoted we must not forget that. As other posts have stated since the takeover we should now start building for the future and our current squad is not the future hence the reality check of players who I think OVER TIME we should look at replacing
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: MarkW on February 18, 2024, 11:47:12 PM
As I said...I know we are not going to get rid of everyone I'm not an idiot I was just trying to make a point of how poor our squad is if we get promoted we must not forget that. As other posts have stated since the takeover we should now start building for the future and our current squad is not the future hence the reality check of players who I think OVER TIME we should look at replacing

Ultimately, we know this squad isn't even good enough for promotion, let alone the Premier League otherwise we wouldn't be so happy with the job Corberan is doing.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 19, 2024, 12:44:18 AM
A few observations about expectations.

There seems to be a strand of thought here that the new owners should sack everyone except Corberan (although he lost on Friday so some have the knives out for him) and reshape the squad all by tea time on Tuesday. I hope they are little bit more circumspect than that.

Setting aside any likelihood of promotion which is an entirely different scenario assuming we are a Championship club I would retain the following players almost come what may.

Palmer, Fellowes and Taylor.

Of the players that are out of contract I would try to persuade Kipre to sign a new deal however I am not entirely optimistic that will be possible.

Everybody else is for sale just to get the wages off the books. Obviously we won't sell the bulk of the squad there won't be buyers either because of injury or more frequently because of the wages they currently earn.  Otherwise we let the legacy contracts run down and players leave as free agents across the next few seasons.

It is only when the wage bill has been tamed and a sustainable squad put together that we will start to make progress. This is the case regardless of the change of ownership the only thing that changes is that if we fail to achieve this goal under Patel we are in danger of an FFP breach under Lai it would have lead to administration.

 The problem is the same and there is only one available remedy and that is strip the squad down and start again. 

 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on February 19, 2024, 08:18:57 AM
I agree with all of that excepting the phrase "more circumspect" which I would replace with "less delusional".
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 20, 2024, 09:32:00 AM
Ultimately, we know this squad isn't even good enough for promotion, let alone the Premier League otherwise we would be so happy with the job Corberan is doing.

Given he hasn't been along to tell you both that 'we've got one of the best squads in the Championship' and 'we are where I would expect us to be' I can only imagine Gaz hasn't seen yours or Ben's posts  ;D .
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 20, 2024, 11:40:56 AM
Given he hasn't been along to tell you both that 'we've got one of the best squads in the Championship' and 'we are where I would expect us to be' I can only imagine Gaz hasn't seen yours or Ben's posts  ;D .


Nothing's changed for me really. In fact i think we are closer to the top 3 than i originally thought. We just threw points against Leicester and Saints was a game to forget for CC..

Still in the 4th to 6th best squads on paper for me
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: smethwickw on February 20, 2024, 04:59:59 PM
Players out of contract in the summer. Who do we keep?

Regardless of division or whether they are willing to re-sign on reduced terms I'd be looking to keep Kipre and potentially Mowett. Cann I don't know enough about but the rest need to go for me.

I do suspect that we'll offer deals to Bartley, Phillips and Reach.


Mowatt

Kipre

Reach

Phillips

Bartley

Chalobah

Pieters

Kelly

Cann

M'Vila
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 20, 2024, 05:21:45 PM
Reach, Chalobah, Pieters, Kelly and M'Vila  - release


Bartley and Phillips - i would release but could see CC asking to keep them, if so we offer on MUCH lower terms. If they get better offers, bye bye lads.

Mowatt - Would offer new deal but doubt we can match current wages.

Kipre - Would make him a good offer


Cann- no idea
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: luke.jones1234 on February 20, 2024, 06:52:40 PM
Players out of contract in the summer. Who do we keep?

Regardless of division or whether they are willing to re-sign on reduced terms I'd be looking to keep Kipre and potentially Mowett. Cann I don't know enough about but the rest need to go for me.

I do suspect that we'll offer deals to Bartley, Phillips and Reach.


Mowatt

Kipre

Reach

Phillips

Bartley

Chalobah

Pieters

Kelly

Cann

M'Vila
I hope not why would anyone want to offer reach a new deal
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on February 20, 2024, 07:26:52 PM
I hope not why would anyone want to offer reach a new deal


CC rates him apparently
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: HampshireBaggie on February 21, 2024, 08:25:27 PM
Here's my opinion on what we should do with contracts this summer. What are yours?

Kyle Bartley - Extend on DRASTICALLY reduced terms (one third of current salary) or release
Cedric Kipre - Extend
Martin Kelly - Release
Erik Pieters - Release - possible 1 year extension if Bartley is released
Adam Reach - Release
Alex Mowatt - Extend
Nathan Chalobah - Extend
Matty Phillips - Extend on reduced terms otherwise release

A bit uneasy with releasing both Pieters and Bartley - both experienced professionals and with only 3 other CB's at the club (Taylor, Ajayi, Kipper (if extended) then if we release we need to buy another player in - money better spent elsewhere.


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Dan on February 21, 2024, 08:30:39 PM
kipre we should be looking to keep and Mowatt on a reduced terms contract.

The rest need to go. We need to cut the wage budget down drastically. If we were promoted probably keep only Kipre.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on February 21, 2024, 09:40:57 PM
Here's my opinion on what we should do with contracts this summer. What are yours?

Kyle Bartley - Extend on DRASTICALLY reduced terms (one third of current salary) or release
Cedric Kipre - Extend
Martin Kelly - Release
Erik Pieters - Release - possible 1 year extension if Bartley is released
Adam Reach - Release
Alex Mowatt - Extend
Nathan Chalobah - Extend
Matty Phillips - Extend on reduced terms otherwise release

A bit uneasy with releasing both Pieters and Bartley - both experienced professionals and with only 3 other CB's at the club (Taylor, Ajayi, Kipper (if extended) then if we release we need to buy another player in - money better spent elsewhere.

NC extend.

CC tried to get rid of him last summer but he wasn't even wanted by Israeli clubs.

I'd like us to keep AM on reduced terms and CK on equal or slightly better terms, as I don't believe he is on massive wages currently.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on February 22, 2024, 01:42:47 AM
Looking at the squad by contract expiry date removing the loanees and adding players out on loan where I know their contract length

2024. Kelly, Kipre, Mowatt, Bartley, Chalobah, Phillips, Reach and Pieters.

2025 Furlong, Townsend, Ajayi. Taylor, Molumby, Diangana, Swift, Yokuslu Griffiths, Thomas-Asante, Ashworth and Faal

2026 Dike, Maja, Grant, Wallace, and Palmer

2027 Fellows

There are a huge number of decisions to be made this summer 20 players are either out of contract or are going into their last year.

Taking each cohort in turn

2024. I would try to renew Kipre's contract. Everybody else I'm letting go regardless of the terms they will sign up to. While Mowatt has had a really good season I don't want to have him on the books in his early 30's

2025. With just one year left we have 3 options sell, let the contract run down and release or negotiate an extension.  I would offer a new contract to Taylor. Given the lack of (fit) attacking options I might extend Thomas Asante by a couple of years. I would be open to offers for everybody else (fairly certain we won't have a queue of interested parties) otherwise I would let them leave at the end of the contract.

2026 Given their contract length if the club were trying to raise funds this the Group that should attract the best fees. However aside from Palmer it is hard to see a market given Wages/Age/Injury record. This is not a particular concern given the players will make a valuable contribution across the next couple of seasons. Although there is one glaring exception, Grant. What the hell to do with Grant will be the perennial problem every summer until he leaves the club I foresee another loan.

2027. The only player contracted for longer than 2 years is Fellows. He is one of the few that I would want to be contracted for that length of time. My fear is that he will be sold to pay for the mistakes of the past if we are not ruthless enough with the bulk of the squad.

Anyway you want to look at the next 2 summers are going to be busy.   
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on February 22, 2024, 07:12:43 AM
I suppose the next questions are who will be heading our transfer tombola and how do we better transition the progress of academy players more effectively to make us their best option moving forward? Probably not the thread for those though.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: DevonInStripes on February 23, 2024, 10:51:23 AM
Major problem with the 2026 cohort is that 3 of the 5 for reasons of fitness or form , have not been any meaningful part of the match day squads this season . A situation that we will in 2 cases find ourselves in for the remainder of 2024 at least !
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 01, 2024, 10:38:27 AM
Small squad update from todays mail

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-injury-update-matt-28732920

Phillips might be back for Bristol this month, if not after the international break.

Maja - back after international break hopefully CC says

BTA - Maybe Bristol too.



Squad will be looking strong and deep for this level after international break.

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on March 01, 2024, 06:49:13 PM
Small squad update from todays mail

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-injury-update-matt-28732920

Phillips might be back for Bristol this month, if not after the international break.

Maja - back after international break hopefully CC says

BTA - Maybe Bristol too.



Squad will be looking strong and deep for this level after international break.

Be great to have them all back for the business end of the season.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 01, 2024, 10:23:20 PM
Be great to have them all back for the business end of the season.


Crazy depth for this league outside the 3 PL clubs
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: paulosull on March 01, 2024, 11:59:42 PM
Small squad update from todays mail

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-injury-update-matt-28732920

Phillips might be back for Bristol this month, if not after the international break.

Maja - back after international break hopefully CC says

BTA - Maybe Bristol too.



Squad will be looking strong and deep for this level after international break.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on March 02, 2024, 07:41:52 AM
 :D

Crazy depth for this league outside the 3 PL clubs
I'm a bit confused our recruitment team gets loads of stick  yet you reckon we have a strong squad the two statements don't quite gel.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: beechyboy90 on March 02, 2024, 07:48:10 AM
System working the only criticism I can level at the Manger is sometimes he makes subs for the sake of subs and we get really disjointed.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: HampshireBaggie on March 02, 2024, 08:08:41 AM
System working the only criticism I can level at the Manger is sometimes he makes subs for the sake of subs and we get really disjointed.

I don’t think he made subs for the sake of subs last night.

Okay wasn’t having his best game, looked tired and took a big whack in the first half.
Townsend went off injured.
Weimann for Wallace makes perfect sense, fresh legs up front and I thought Wallace was a bit ineffectual in the false 9.
Bartley to shore things up when they were in the ascendancy.

Maybe they did have an effect on the game but I thought they made sense.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: HampshireBaggie on March 07, 2024, 07:38:41 AM
I know CC’s hands are tied a bit with injuries at the moment but this Wallace/false 9 system we are playing at the moment isn’t working at all. Weimann has to start for me and give us some sort of outlet.



Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: zippyandbungle on March 07, 2024, 08:30:10 AM
I know CC’s hands are tied a bit with injuries at the moment but this Wallace/false 9 system we are playing at the moment isn’t working at all. Weimann has to start for me and give us some sort of outlet.
4 games
8 points 8 goals
No defeats
I don’t think it’s working two bad ?

I think fans always want perfection…but when you consider Dike,Asante,Maja are all unavailable and Wiemann has also had a recent injury …what are the genuine other options ??


Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 07, 2024, 09:46:10 AM
:DI'm a bit confused our recruitment team gets loads of stick  yet you reckon we have a strong squad the two statements don't quite gel.

Sorry bud only just saw this, i used the words "for this level" as in comparison to the rest of the league bar the 3 relegated PL clubs. Compared to the other 20 clubs we have more than most. Doesn't mean our individual recruitment is good overall.


What i came here to post is roll on the international break!
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KYA on March 07, 2024, 09:56:31 AM
Sorry bud only just saw this, i used the words "for this level" as in comparison to the rest of the league bar the 3 relegated PL clubs. Compared to the other 20 clubs we have more than most. Doesn't mean our individual recruitment is good overall.


What i came here to post is roll on the international break!
No worries as for the international break ASAP.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: NJS on March 07, 2024, 10:36:09 AM
I don't think our strong.  It's old; several of our most talented players (e.g. Swift, Yokuslu, Phillips) can hardly play 60 minutes of the very brutal energy required in the Championship.  Some are perennial injury worries

If the squad was so good, why are there so many complaints about nearly all of them?

The squad is not strong it's mid-table and Corberan has maximised what can be got from it. 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 07, 2024, 11:05:44 AM
I don't think our strong.  It's old; several of our most talented players (e.g. Swift, Yokuslu, Phillips) can hardly play 60 minutes of the very brutal energy required in the Championship.  Some are perennial injury worries

If the squad was so good, why are there so many complaints about nearly all of them?

The squad is not strong it's mid-table and Corberan has maximised what can be got from it.

The squad is play off level and CC has us where he should.

As for the complaints i don't think you will find any side with fans not complaining.

As for the old boys then yes i'd like to see us walk away from that lack of transfer strategy policy

Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: wba_1996 on March 07, 2024, 11:51:43 AM
I know CC’s hands are tied a bit with injuries at the moment but this Wallace/false 9 system we are playing at the moment isn’t working at all. Weimann has to start for me and give us some sort of outlet.

We get worse when Weimann comes on. Because his legs are gone and he can’t run. Exactly why I moaned about signing yet another 30+ past it player. Fair play he’s scored a couple of crucial goals which is more than Albrighton did last year.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 07, 2024, 11:58:46 AM
We get worse when Weimann comes on. Because his legs are gone and he can’t run. Exactly why I moaned about signing yet another 30+ past it player. Fair play he’s scored a couple of crucial goals which is more than Albrighton did last year.


Yeah he's done better than I thought but Bristol fans were right, he's past it
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Albion79 on March 07, 2024, 12:24:52 PM
I agree Gaz, i have always liked Weimann, he has been a decent championship career forward, he was never prolific but he was clever and his movement was good.

However other than his couple of goals i have been disappointed, he may need a run of games but you need to show something in the minutes you do get and i havent seen anything to suggest he could do that number 9 job, he has never been a mains striker, he played across the forward positons.

The goals he has scored probably means job done from that side, he will probably get another goal or two before the end of the seaso, but I always felt january we made a mistake not signing an out and out striker with the way we play, we had BTA but Maja was injured for the season near enough and it was always going to be a risk relying on Dike.

We obviously didnt have loads of money but we did have some hence our signings, i never understood why we signed Marshall who plays on the left and Weimann who plays across all three when we had BTA, Wallace, Fellows, Reach, Johnstone and Diangana coming back from the AFCON.

We were well stacked in those positions anyway so to sign another two seemed odd, it has meant we are now playing a winger as this false 9 / Striker with limited other options whilst BTA is out, why we didnt sign one of Marshall or Weimann and use the other funds on a proper striker i dont know.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: gazberg on March 07, 2024, 12:54:37 PM
I guess that we were waiting for the deal to go through Albion 79.  Sadly it came about 6 weeks too late.

Couple of signings to get us through to the end of the season is all i can think of.

Hopefully from this summer window, in terms of transfer planning, things will change regardless of what divsion we are in.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on March 07, 2024, 01:09:12 PM
Are we starting to look slightly over-coached, as in sticking to methodically planned moves, especially at the back?  I can see the theory, that we pass it about till we get a chance for quick break with our nippy attackers able to do their thing, but it looked last night like we were too predictable overall and QPR really got control over us as a result.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: KN22 on March 07, 2024, 02:58:32 PM
Are we starting to look slightly over-coached, as in sticking to methodically planned moves, especially at the back?  I can see the theory, that we pass it about till we get a chance for quick break with our nippy attackers able to do their thing, but it looked last night like we were too predictable overall and QPR really got control over us as a result.

Maybe.... but I just felt that, on the night, they displayed a hunger from first minute to last, that surprised us. They never let up for a moment. And while some are saying how poor we were, not without justification, I thought QPR were excellent.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: alex1 on March 07, 2024, 03:00:47 PM
On the team selection for last night, my only criticism would be Reach at LB instead of Pipa. Pipa looks to me much more tenacious, and he isn't bad on the ball.
Clearly with BTA and the other recognised No.9's out, there is a problem in filling that position. I think Wallace is the best we have, as he has bags of energy, important with the high pressing, and is a decent finisher. Weimann doesn't have the same energy and Marshall has looked slightly out of his depth.
Of course you can start juggling the formation around, but then you lose the likes of Yokuslu in midfield, and players are less sure about their roles. One of the things CC is most strong on is making players understand their roles. 
 
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: BalisPen on March 07, 2024, 05:04:59 PM
I'd play Pippa Middleton at LB instead of Reach.

An absolutely atrocious player, wherever he plays.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: mulliganstired on March 07, 2024, 06:47:48 PM
I'd play Pippa Middleton at LB instead of Reach.

An absolutely atrocious player, wherever he plays.
So would I
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: TheBaggieMan on March 07, 2024, 08:21:44 PM
It was their continual aggressive non-stop high press that got to us from minute one till the final whistle. We just couldn’t cope when in possession with our player being instantly challenged by generally two at least of our opponents.
Our setup and playing plan was totally forced out of the window with us becoming headless chickens and what does concern me is that all Championship coaches and managers will have watched that game and seen how to play us.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: Standaman on March 07, 2024, 09:14:01 PM
It was their continual aggressive non-stop high press that got to us from minute one till the final whistle. We just couldn’t cope when in possession with our player being instantly challenged by generally two at least of our opponents.
Our setup and playing plan was totally forced out of the window with us becoming headless chickens and what does concern me is that all Championship coaches and managers will have watched that game and seen how to play us.

Martí Cifuentes has been in post from 31st October which was two weeks after QPR came to the Hawthorns and frankly stank the place out. They were the complete opposite to the side we played last night. It has taken time for him to get QPR into this position and their results have only really started to improve since the turn of the year.

Based on that our opponents either have the high press in the locker or they don't most coaches haven't got teams capable of doing it certainly at short notice. It maybe the best way of playing us but it isn't a thing that can be done overnight fortunately.
Title: Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
Post by: SmethDan on March 07, 2024, 10:12:11 PM
Martí Cifuentes has been in post from 31st October which was two weeks after QPR came to the Hawthorns and frankly stank the place out. They were the complete opposite to the side we played last night. It has taken time for him to get QPR into this position and their results have only really started to improve since the turn of the year.

Based on that our opponents either have the high press in the locker or they don't most coaches haven't got teams capable of doing it certainly at short notice. It maybe the best way of playing us but it isn't a thing that can be done overnight fortunately.

Without wishing to stray too far off topic Cifuentes serves to highlight just how bloody inept Gareth Ainsworth must be. I was very impressed with QPR over the course of the game all be it we were able to take advantage of a couple of moments of sloppiness on their behalf.