[Legend]

Changing the manager won't make a difference, look at the last two tournaments before Roy was in charge. One we didn't qualify for and the other we were awful. This year we come against Italy who got to the Euro 2012 final and full of experience compared to some of our players who are playing in their first international tournament and a Uruguay side who got to a semi final of a World Cup in 2010 and won the Copa America. We deserved at least a draw against Italy and Uruguay should have had a player sent off but they had two shots on target and score both while we missed key chances early on from Rooney to go in the lead. We also should have beat Costa Rica but again weren't clinical enough. Football is fine margins and you ultimately get judged on results but I think we did well in an extremely tough group.

[WBAinDEVON]

Passionless and non commital to name but a few.My England days are over

[kris_boing]

I really don't know what the answer is with England.  You looked at the US last night and they fought for the shirt.  There is no fight and belief from our players.  They are going through the motions.


I fear the kind of performance in Brazil will continue for years to come until we become chuffed to bits to just qualify for a tournament like Republic of Ireland and Scotland.

[GrGr]

I really don't know what the answer is with England.  You looked at the US last night and they fought for the shirt.  There is no fight and belief from our players.  They are going through the motions.


I fear the kind of performance in Brazil will continue for years to come until we become chuffed to bits to just qualify for a tournament like Republic of Ireland and Scotland.

Something's gone very wrong with British (English) football. The English players don't have the skill set to compete anymore. They used to try and make up for that with fighting spirit but that is also gone now. All they do is get bloated wages.

Time for a complete rethink of the coaching methods employed by the British coaches. It's partly for this reason I am ticked off with the employment of Irvine. He is a 55 year old coach and I doubt he will come up with something interesting that brings English/British football forward. If the PL clubs employ coaches that do not develop football of course the domestic football stagnates. It's all about the cheap Sky money rain now and the insiders making sure they get the biggest piece of the cake they can, nothing else matters.

[BB74]

I think Arry summed it up well. Some players just don't want to play. Roy should have a heart to heart with each and every player and ask them straight up if they want to play for England. Don't mean the fancy tournaments but the away games to the Faroe Islands and Moldova etc. If they hum and arr then don't ever pick them again.

There are players in the Championship and League one that would spill blood to play for England so get them on the pitch!

[WBAinDEVON]

I think Arry summed it up well. Some players just don't want to play. Roy should have a heart to heart with each and every player and ask them straight up if they want to play for England. Don't mean the fancy tournaments but the away games to the Faroe Islands and Moldova etc. If they hum and arr then don't ever pick them again.

There are players in the Championship and League one that would spill blood to play for England so get them on the pitch!

Good point, spot on.
Wait till some of them half hearted world cup footballers come to the Hawthorns next season

[Atomic]

I think the notion that some England players don't care or don't want to play for the shirt is complete and utter nonsense. Once again only in England would people look to shortcomings as a lack of passion.

It's important to remember while everybody is so impressed with the USA and these other teams that show all the fight that the teams that have made it through to the last eight are generally the big sides. If England kept getting as far as the USA did in this tournament it'd be seen as not good enough. Whilst the USA did show plenty of spirit, they do also have some good players lets not forget that and before we dismiss them as not that good ask yourselves how many English players are significantly better.

England's problems on the world stage are plain to see it simply comes down to lack of quality. In this World Cup we scored two goals and created quite a few chances we COULD have got through the group stage. We didn't because of a lack of quality in the final third.. The big teams have the Messi's, Hazard's, Muller's, Neymar's people like this. Our "number 10" is Wayne Rooney who a) despite his ability isn't as good as any of them and b) is constantly played out of position to "do a job for the team". Rooney is regarded as England's best player. If that is the case you play him where he is suited you do not negate your biggest strength. If you don't have a quality number ten you need a quality number 9. We have Daniel Sturridge who despite a good year for Liverpool last year, isn't a Benzema or a Van Persie or a Suarez. He needs two touches to control a ball and has a lack of match intelligence which is why he often makes wrong choices. Lets not forget when he was at Chelsea he couldn't get a game, that is because there are a lot of better strikers than him.

Looking through the rest of the team the midfield containing Gerrard / Henderson isn't technically good enough. Both are typical Premiership 100 mph players. Neither has a grade A first touch, neither can play a technical game. Gerrard at his best was a box to box high energy type player, great in the Premiership, a waste of time in international tournament football. Defensively Johnson and Jagielka aren't good enough by a fair distance.

When you put these things together you see why we fail. Add to these the likes of Welbeck who should never wear an England shirt. We lump the USA under "passion" yet most of their players are on a par with England's technically.

The problem is with English mentality and it still isn't changing enough. Commentators on TV keep constantly going on about pace. Pace, pace, pace. We have to get out of that mentality. 90% of players at this level have a good level of pace. We in England see pace as an answer - "he has the pace to run behind and cause problems" it's nonsense, pace like effort will get you so far it will not make you world champions. Last night the useless Danny Murphy was asked what he thought about the Belgium striker Irigi. His answer was typical "Well he's quick and he's strong". First thing he said. Nothing about his mental awareness or his touch or his game intelligence or his movement. That sort of mentality has to go in England it really does and then the passion mentality needs to follw suit. We in England forgive people for trying and would rather see someone run around for ninety minutes and be totally ineffective than appreciate one defence splitting pace by a player who just patrols the centre circle.

The education needs to start with kids then when they become professionals they need to play in Premiership teams not loaned out. The Premiership needs to change. To be fair it has, there is so much more quality now than there was fifteen / twenty years ago the trouble is most of the quality players are foreign. If we need to dilute the quality of the premiership for a while then so be it. We need to overload our top flight with ENGLISH players but that alone is not the answer it's only part of it. Unless we teach our kids the technical side of the game at a very early age so it becomes second nature to them we are never going to get any better.

[tommcneill]

I think the notion that some England players don't care or don't want to play for the shirt is complete and utter nonsense. Once again only in England would people look to shortcomings as a lack of passion.

It's important to remember while everybody is so impressed with the USA and these other teams that show all the fight that the teams that have made it through to the last eight are generally the big sides. If England kept getting as far as the USA did in this tournament it'd be seen as not good enough. Whilst the USA did show plenty of spirit, they do also have some good players lets not forget that and before we dismiss them as not that good ask yourselves how many English players are significantly better.

England's problems on the world stage are plain to see it simply comes down to lack of quality. In this World Cup we scored two goals and created quite a few chances we COULD have got through the group stage. We didn't because of a lack of quality in the final third.. The big teams have the Messi's, Hazard's, Muller's, Neymar's people like this. Our "number 10" is Wayne Rooney who a) despite his ability isn't as good as any of them and b) is constantly played out of position to "do a job for the team". Rooney is regarded as England's best player. If that is the case you play him where he is suited you do not negate your biggest strength. If you don't have a quality number ten you need a quality number 9. We have Daniel Sturridge who despite a good year for Liverpool last year, isn't a Benzema or a Van Persie or a Suarez. He needs two touches to control a ball and has a lack of match intelligence which is why he often makes wrong choices. Lets not forget when he was at Chelsea he couldn't get a game, that is because there are a lot of better strikers than him.

Looking through the rest of the team the midfield containing Gerrard / Henderson isn't technically good enough. Both are typical Premiership 100 mph players. Neither has a grade A first touch, neither can play a technical game. Gerrard at his best was a box to box high energy type player, great in the Premiership, a waste of time in international tournament football. Defensively Johnson and Jagielka aren't good enough by a fair distance.

When you put these things together you see why we fail. Add to these the likes of Welbeck who should never wear an England shirt. We lump the USA under "passion" yet most of their players are on a par with England's technically.

The problem is with English mentality and it still isn't changing enough. Commentators on TV keep constantly going on about pace. Pace, pace, pace. We have to get out of that mentality. 90% of players at this level have a good level of pace. We in England see pace as an answer - "he has the pace to run behind and cause problems" it's nonsense, pace like effort will get you so far it will not make you world champions. Last night the useless Danny Murphy was asked what he thought about the Belgium striker Irigi. His answer was typical "Well he's quick and he's strong". First thing he said. Nothing about his mental awareness or his touch or his game intelligence or his movement. That sort of mentality has to go in England it really does and then the passion mentality needs to follw suit. We in England forgive people for trying and would rather see someone run around for ninety minutes and be totally ineffective than appreciate one defence splitting pace by a player who just patrols the centre circle.

The education needs to start with kids then when they become professionals they need to play in Premiership teams not loaned out. The Premiership needs to change. To be fair it has, there is so much more quality now than there was fifteen / twenty years ago the trouble is most of the quality players are foreign. If we need to dilute the quality of the premiership for a while then so be it. We need to overload our top flight with ENGLISH players but that alone is not the answer it's only part of it. Unless we teach our kids the technical side of the game at a very early age so it becomes second nature to them we are never going to get any better.

Outstanding post fella..

I agree with everything you have said there.

[Quakes Fan]

The education needs to start with kids then when they become professionals they need to play in Premiership teams not loaned out. The Premiership needs to change. To be fair it has, there is so much more quality now than there was fifteen / twenty years ago the trouble is most of the quality players are foreign. If we need to dilute the quality of the premiership for a while then so be it. We need to overload our top flight with ENGLISH players but that alone is not the answer it's only part of it. Unless we teach our kids the technical side of the game at a very early age so it becomes second nature to them we are never going to get any better.

Why force Premiership clubs to serve the needs of international football, for the sake of one tournament every two years? I'm guessing a substantial majority in England are far more dedicated to their clubs.

Personally, I'd much prefer to see the end of international football and FIFA.

[Atomic]

Why force Premiership clubs to serve the needs of international football, for the sake of one tournament every two years? I'm guessing a substantial majority in England are far more dedicated to their clubs.

Personally, I'd much prefer to see the end of international football and FIFA.

That isn't going to happen.

Changing the Premiership doesn't have to be a negative it can be a positive as it produces better English players. Look at Germany and Spain there is nothing wrong with the Bundesliga or La Liga.

The Premiership as a world wide brand is excellent right now, however it is also uncompetitive and lesser clubs are serving the "elite" clubs taking loanees and having their better youths poached anyway.

It's the excitement and the furious nature of the Premiership together with the PR and marketting that sells as a brand not the quality of the footballers. You could argue Suarez and Aguero but generally the very best players in the world don't play in the Premiership - Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Ribery, Muller, Benzema, Pirlo, Neymar.

[Quakes Fan]

I probably should have highlighted the particular sentence I took issue with, which is this:

We need to overload our top flight with ENGLISH players

A rule that keeps foreign players out of the Premiership will not help English footballers improve.

[Dan]

It is definitely a problem that not just English players, but all youth players at a lot of clubs have extremely little chance of breaking through at most squads - whilst clubs can go abroad and get an international with the money in the premier, that will always be a problem unless you bring in regulations.

Chelsea are a prime example, they buy the best youth players from around the world, yet not a single player has broke through in Abramovich, and only Bertrand has even been anything like an actual squad member. Why? Well when Chelsea can pay 25m and bring in a German international with 30 caps in the same position rather than promote an academy player, well they always well.

At best this stunts players development, at worst it destroys them and they never become the players they should have been.

I don't think anyone objects to good foreign players being signed, but there's clearly a lot of sub-par foreigners bought in too. If you made every 25 man squad so it had to be 13 England eligible players (or players who were once eligibl to allow for the likes of James Morrison who switch) for example, that allows clubs to bring in plenty of foreign players, whilst also meaning they rely on their academies for squad fillers rather than bring in rubbish from abroad. Unless you force clubs to use their academies, they generally won't, with few exceptions.



Part of the problem can also be seen in this thread - anyone who thinks its due to passion that England failed is so far off you can only hope they're nowhere near the coaching side of things. Whilst English people have this mentality that "passion" overrides all, youth coaching will go nowhere. The US play within a system built to within their needs, when England did that in Euro 2012 and took Italy to penalties everyone complained, when they tried to play a more technical approach, naturally they failed because other teams produce more technical players. Absolutely nothing to do with effort. England need to produce at grassroots level, but that'll never happen when skillful players are mistrusted and a love of "Passion" overrides all. In all likelihood this mentality of passion (which more often than not is shown through fouling people and running around a bit to most fans) will mean England never create the players they need to win anything. England don't lead the world in skillful players in any sport - probably a reflection of the demands of fans who demand passion and hard work and ignore skill and flair.

[Atomic]

I probably should have highlighted the particular sentence I took issue with, which is this:
A rule that keeps foreign players out of the Premiership will not help English footballers improve.

I'm not saying foreign players should be kept out of the Premiership I'm saying a higher (much higher) percentage should be English. That alone won't solve the problem, no, my earlier post covers the rest of it.

The only reason the English are becoming appathetic about international football is because we are no good at it, so people get fed up. The whole nation would erupt if England won a major tournament.

[Atomic]

It is definitely a problem that not just English players, but all youth players at a lot of clubs have extremely little chance of breaking through at most squads - whilst clubs can go abroad and get an international with the money in the premier, that will always be a problem unless you bring in regulations.

Chelsea are a prime example, they buy the best youth players from around the world, yet not a single player has broke through in Abramovich, and only Bertrand has even been anything like an actual squad member. Why? Well when Chelsea can pay 25m and bring in a German international with 30 caps in the same position rather than promote an academy player, well they always well.

At best this stunts players development, at worst it destroys them and they never become the players they should have been.

I don't think anyone objects to good foreign players being signed, but there's clearly a lot of sub-par foreigners bought in too. If you made every 25 man squad so it had to be 13 England eligible players (or players who were once eligibl to allow for the likes of James Morrison who switch) for example, that allows clubs to bring in plenty of foreign players, whilst also meaning they rely on their academies for squad fillers rather than bring in rubbish from abroad. Unless you force clubs to use their academies, they generally won't, with few exceptions.



Part of the problem can also be seen in this thread - anyone who thinks its due to passion that England failed is so far off you can only hope they're nowhere near the coaching side of things. Whilst English people have this mentality that "passion" overrides all, youth coaching will go nowhere. The US play within a system built to within their needs, when England did that in Euro 2012 and took Italy to penalties everyone complained, when they tried to play a more technical approach, naturally they failed because other teams produce more technical players. Absolutely nothing to do with effort.

Spot on.

Almost as good as my post. 





Only joking!

[tommcneill]

I cant see how anyone would want to do away with International Football??

I certainly don't and im sure the players and the football community wouldn't either!!

However there needs to be a change, academy players at professional clubs should only be allowed to sign for the clubs they play for on pro terms in the first instance.

Secondly a limit on foreign players within the 1st team squad. 'x' amount of players within the 25 need to be eligible for England or British teams.

[Quakes Fan]

It is definitely a problem that not just English players, but all youth players at a lot of clubs have extremely little chance of breaking through at most squads - whilst clubs can go abroad and get an international with the money in the premier, that will always be a problem unless you bring in regulations.

Chelsea are a prime example, they buy the best youth players from around the world, yet not a single player has broke through in Abramovich, and only Bertrand has even been anything like an actual squad member. Why? Well when Chelsea can pay 25m and bring in a German international with 30 caps in the same position rather than promote an academy player, well they always well.

At best this stunts players development, at worst it destroys them and they never become the players they should have been.

I don't think anyone objects to good foreign players being signed, but there's clearly a lot of sub-par foreigners bought in too. If you made every 25 man squad so it had to be 13 England eligible players (or players who were once eligibl to allow for the likes of James Morrison who switch) for example, that allows clubs to bring in plenty of foreign players, whilst also meaning they rely on their academies for squad fillers rather than bring in rubbish from abroad. Unless you force clubs to use their academies, they generally won't, with few exceptions.

We agree completely about the nature of the problem. I just don't think giving domestic players some free passes is the best way to correct it. To quote myself from another forum:


The foreigners who have ruined England are Roman Abramovich, Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Malcolm Glazer, et al., who hoard young English talent, pay them ludicrous wages not to play first-team football, and watch their motivation and promise shrivel and die.
 
Playing in the best domestic league in the world against the best players can only help English players, and the best who can't get games in the Premier League would be better served by playing in top foreign leagues.

I cant see how anyone would want to do away with International Football??

I certainly don't and im sure the players and the football community wouldn't either!!

I do. I just said so. Don't be so sure that the players wouldn't prefer to be resting or on holiday rather than playing in all these pointless friendlies and qualification matches. Playing in a World Cup is fun, but most international games aren't the World Cup.

And the thought of crushing FIFA and eviscerating the FA's revenue, well that's got to be worth something.

[Atomic]

The Premier League isn't the best league in the world. It is the most entertaining but it isn't the best.

[Quakes Fan]

Now there are the inquests, the interrogation of supposed national failure. With tedious predictability, pundits and ex-professionals line up to kick their favourite target: the foreign footballer. Or more precisely, the number of foreigners playing in the Premier League, which they argue squeezes out decent young Englishmen. Former England captain Sol Campbell talked on Radio 4’s Today about English talents being crowded out, echoing concerns voiced earlier by England manager Roy Hodgson and his sidekick Gary Neville.

The fact that there are tentative signs of a flowering of youthful English talent, despite the painful defeat by Uruguay, seems to be ignored. Instead we will no doubt see Greg Dyke, chairman of the Football Association, intensify his efforts to limit the number of non-European Union stars signed by top clubs. “We know that we have a problem,” he declared on Friday.

He should know better: this is populist nonsense that defies economic or historic logic. It is one more dismal echo of the immigration debate infecting our nation, another expression of British jobs for British workers. But even now, approaching two centuries after the landmark Corn Laws debate, we still have people putting forward the self-defeating idea that a sector is strengthened by artificially protecting it from foreign rivals.

Few doubt the flow of 1,527 foreign players into the Premier League has improved top-flight football in Britain, making it arguably the most challenging and certainly the most entertaining among top European leagues. The majority have come from Europe – 169 from France alone – underlining the futility of trying to limit the number of foreign players unless the country pulls out of the EU. Mind you, I doubt Ukip would win many votes by campaigning against Brussels on the basis of sending Eden Hazard back home to Belgium.

We should be proud that 66 players entitled to represent England performed regularly last season in such a competitive environment as the Premier League. No wonder those young stars looked so sharp against Italy having managed to break through into this tough league. It is simply bizarre to believe that the likes of Raheem Sterling and Ross Barkley would be stronger internationals if banned from playing regularly with, and against, the likes of Luis Suarez.

The Italians, like the Germans, also have high percentages of foreign players in their top leagues although this does not seem to stop either of them doing well at international level. Yet Italy’s coach, Cesare Prandelli, has also complained that this influx is strangling the careers of young players. After their embarrassing flop in Brazil, perhaps Spain should demand more foreign players in La Liga to lift their national game?

Stefan Szymanski and Simon Kuper, who wrote a superb statistics-based book called Soccernomics, point out that the English team has done significantly better in major championships since the inception of the Premier League. This may not be much comfort for fans sitting glumly on their sofas as Suarez hit his second goal against England, but for supporters of my age it is impossible to forget  those bleak times when England failed to qualify for the finals. This implies that, despite ceaseless setbacks, foreign competition has had a positive effect on our finest players.

The authors argue that a bigger problem is the failure of parochial English players to travel abroad, which would expose them to alternative styles of football distinct from those high-tempo games that make the Premier League so electrifying. Look how many players in teams such as Brazil and Uruguay play in foreign countries, after all. “It’s not inconceivable England could win a World Cup with no English players playing in England,” said Szymanski.

There are many other issues. Anyone who has witnessed youth football in this country knows that too many coaches have a depressing fixation on size and strength over skill, alongside a determination to win at all costs rather than encourage the best talent. The boring long-ball game remains entrenched; indeed, Dyke’s own organisation is guilty of still promoting people with antediluvian attitudes at junior levels. As the astute Arsene Wenger says, the core problem is poor youth coaching producing players lacking basic skills.

The Premier League is the most potent instrument of soft power our nation possesses. Instead of seeking to diminish it after defeats by two better teams with higher world rankings than England, the people in charge and the professionals who earned so much money from its success should tackle obvious shortcomings that have long dogged the game. Instead, like so many other parts of society, they blame the foreigners.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/world-cup-2014-foreign-players-are-not-to-blame-for-englands-early-exit-9554151.html

[Dan]

The article misses the point somewhat and seems to imply that its all xenophobic. It completely ignores the fact that the pathways to the first teams of most premier league teams are blocked.

It mentions Germany and Italy as having lots of foreign players, yet both nations have far more higher of their own playing in their leagues too, and at younger ages. The clubs in those countries rely on their academies, something that doesn't happen at many clubs in the UK. Likewise it blames English players for not going abroad, and yet by and large Germany and Italian's do not tend to go abroad much either.

Likewise to claim England have done better in tournaments since the inception of the premier league is ridiculously misleading. The expansion of the Euro's from 8 to 16 in '96, and the world cup from 24 to 32 in '98 largely explains why England have "Improved".

Of course England needs to improve at grass roots level, but you can hardly blame just that when most premier league clubs academies recruit from around the world, whilst if clubs were genuinely forced to rely on their academy you can guarantee the much needed improvements at grassroots would swiftly follow. As it is getting a good academy player is a nice bonus rather than a necessity like it is for most of Europe.

[LiamTheBaggie]

I think the notion that some England players don't care or don't want to play for the shirt is complete and utter nonsense. Once again only in England would people look to shortcomings as a lack of passion.

I think the passion argument is certainly a reason for some of the disillusionment that people have with the national side - regardless of the fact the players aren't good enough and the approach to coaching and academies in this country is fundamentally wrong.

It is becoming increasingly tiresome and boring to constantly see English players withdrawing from international squads only to miraculously play for their club side a couple of days letter. Their constant withdrawal from the side, whether they have an injury or not, is largely the main reason why England fans nowadays believe this England side carries no passion.

It is almost treated as a hindrance.

People look back on eras which had flamboyance and gave every ounce of sweat they had for their country - people remember the tears of Paul Gascoigne a man who combined great ability with 100% effort every time he graced the field. They remember the likes of Tony Adams belting out a national anthem. They remember Terry Butcher representing his country with a head bangage as blood was wetting out of his head. Folk had a team they could relate too.

And now look at today's bunch - a group that seemingly cannot wait to pull out of a squad, show no emotion whatsoever when representing England and as soon as they embarrass the nation within a day or two they're swanning around on their holidays.

And then you have the current bunch of under 21s, or at least ones who have just graduated into the first team. Whilst the likes of Spain give under 21s experience in the seniors they are expected to compete in tournament groups for their ages. Our players for some reason do not do that. It is almost as if they believe the u21s are beneath them now they have tasted the senior experience. And yet again, that is another area where we go wrong in this country.

[ChrisLobels]

What overreactive Daily Mail nonsense. Yeah as a professional footballer, he probably shouldn't be indulging in it (although one hit is hardly going to damage his health that much). But then ideally footballers wouldn't drink either. But it was legal and you'll find it freely available at a lot of nightclubs. He's done nothing wrong.

It really is a complete non story. Man does something legal once that if done regularly can damage health. Might as well ask for anyone who's ever smoked ecigs or drank alcohol to be dropped and banned by that logic.

I can say pub culture has been the biggest reason behind fall of english football..Must be banned for players..

[WBAinDEVON]

I find it amazing we have had no word from anybody associated with the England national team since the arrived back on home soil

[kris_boing]

It was one big FA jolly up really.


I notice we have dropped in the FIFA rankings to 20th now.  I think its a fair reflection.  Look at the teams above us.  I wouldn't fancy us to beat any of them.

[swad35]

It was one big FA jolly up really.


I notice we have dropped in the FIFA rankings to 20th now.  I think its a fair reflection.  Look at the teams above us.  I wouldn't fancy us to beat any of them.

Would be interesting to see the financial investment rankings, easily top ten maybe even top 5 and for what.

[gerry m]

I can say pub culture has been the biggest reason behind fall of english football..Must be banned for players..

True! They couldnt wait to go on holiday and straight on the lash!