[Dan]

I agree with all this with the addition that Southgate needs to evolve as time goes on too. You're right about CM and that is why I believe we need to unleash the fury of our talented attackers. If we can't beat the best 1-0/2-0/2-1 then we're going to have to try and be the best attacking team.

As it happens we have Jude Bellingham who could be the answer to the issues you've referenced and he has his entire career ahead of him.

Yeah I agree Southgate certainly needs to learn but there needs to be realism.

Even top coaches do not coach tournament football flawlessly - Guardiola has repeatedly made some horrible tactical decisions in the CL for Man City that have caused them to get knocked out against much weaker teams. I'm not sure which manager people expect who is going to flawlessly take England through tournaments when there a stronger teams abound. As it happens the changes we made did in the end wrestle some control back and hopefully we learn from that going forward.

Certainly if Southgate has a flaw its his caution is too excessive but the fans often want to go too far in the other direction. We could be a bit more attacking and trust the likes of Grealish, Foden, Sancho more - but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact the current set up conceded 0 goals in open play - even yesterday Italy created what, one decent chance in open play? We need subtle changes, but not a revolution - hopefully another year and Foden will be played in central midfield more for club and Bellingham will continue to develop. That alone would go a long way to solving England's issues.

[gazberg]

Nonsense is that simple enough. Remove one of the best England managers for decades. Replace him with who, Big Sam?

You rate him, i don't, which is no biggie but we won't win anything with the way he sets them up. These are the best group of players we've had in. It's hard to fail with them in my opinion.

[Baggies]

One thing I will say, the complete failure of the Wembley security operation last night surely ends any hopes of us hosting a major tournament any time soon. An absolute joke.

As for England, I'm feeling pretty down about how everything panned out yesterday. A miserable end to the tournament, more fuel for the anti English lobby and leaving you questioning if you want to watch international football if this is going to be how it is.

On the pitch, Southgate does need to find a way of changing things up when needed. He did it vs Germany but you sense that was because he realised they weren't a great side. Against Italy, we allowed them to dominate for 80 minutes and Southgate looked paralysed. He just cant bring himself to move from his ridgid system. If you are going to play a very conservative style, you probably need atleast one maverick genius. France had Pogba and Mbappe. Portugal had Ronaldo. Mason Mount isn't quite on that level.

[KYA]

Italy are 34 games unbeaten, the idea England should have been rolling them over is ludicrous. England have a starting midfield of Phillips and Rice. Italy have a selection of top tier central midfielders, there's your difference. The reaction here is akin to England having been battered 4-0 rather than losing on penalties in a match were ultimately neither team managed to really create anything.

Maybe Saka shouldn't have taken a penalty, then again Sterling is terrible at them and I'm not aware of what Grealish is like. All talk about Southgate being terrible for losing the first final in 55 years on penalties is ridiculous. He's earned the world cup comfortably. Maybe there were some things he could do better last night but the fact is England's central midfield options just aren't the level of other top teams and no amount of blaming the manager will change that.

Certainly I am sure there is no manager who would please people for England. People are too entitled - this is a team who has not won anything or even made a final for 55 years. The idea a team featuring a midfield of Leeds and West Ham is the best in the tournament on paper is just ridiculous and betrays a lack of knowledge of our rivals.

While I agree with Phillips and Rice  aren't top drawer I certainly wasn't a fan at the beginning but they grew into the competition and Rice was immense in the final until he tired I would say they more than matched the Italians 
until after half time, they pushed up and had an extra man in midfield that was when Southgate should have changed things up by bringing on Grealish a wasted opportunity  without a doubt.

[Baggies]

I feel Bellingham's progress over the next few years will be key to England's success. That and Oli Skipp. If Bellingham can become a world class central midfielder then we might have more scope to go out and dominate games. At the moment, you always feel we have to make sacrifices to match the very best.

[skyclad99]

Just reading about the racist abuse that our players have been receiving. What is wrong with these people?

Absolutely no need and no place for this in our society.

[johnny Cash]

The midfield didn’t two didn’t cost us last night, our tactics did. Jorginho and Barella knock it about nicely enough but they aren’t that threatening or incisive.

We sat back and allowed them to do what they are good at, which was just stupid. Momentum is masssive and we lost all of ours and handed it to them.

Italy were there for taking. I thought it would be a tough game but first half we made them look incredibly average.  I haven’t knocked the penalties, either Southgate or the plays because we know how they go. My disappointment is entirely with how we came out for the second half.

[Albion79]

Whilst i think Southgate got things wrong last night i am still quite shocked people want him sacked but its each to their own.

He has got us further than any other manager in the euros, he also got us to a world cup semi final when many expected us out a lot sooner. There is a reason Italy are unbeaten in over three years and havent conceded more than one in a game for ages too, they are used to getting to finals, they are streetwise and you only learn that as you go, they are a quality side.

This isnt the england golden generation where we had the likes of Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, etc, etc with them you could say they were stars, if thats how football worked we should of won everything with that group. Infact Southgate deserves extra praise i think for doing what he has with the squad, Belgium, Portugal and France all on paper have stronger squads than us and we got further than them.

We beat Croatia (current world cup runners up), Scotland (who it was always their cup final, there other results show that) and the Czech Republic (who went on to knock the much fancied Dutch out easily) We then beat Germany (history shows we dont usually fare too well against them in tournaments), Ukraine and Denmark (who had pretty much every neutral wanting them to win and their players playing with massive motivation after what happened to Eriksen) so i am not sure thats an easy route to the final.

We played 7 games, scored 11 goals, conceded 2 goals and had one of the youngest squads in history, with a lot of those younger players being introduced by Southgate.He has no experience of managing in a final and he couldnt get advice from anybody else because they dont either in this country!

Southgate made mistakes last night, but hopefully he learns and we go the next step at the world cup and win it. I am a Grealish fan and would try and get him in my team but i dont see him train everyday or how well he fits into the system and he isnt that good that you chnage your team to suit, the way some talk you would we had Lionel Messi on the bench, Grealish has stood out in a very average Villa team and had a couple of decent games for England, like i say i would try and find him a place but i am also aware he isnt a superstar (he may go on to be)

Before the game a few of us were talking and said if we were to lose, Southgate will front up and take the blame and if we win he will let the players have the glory and thats exactly what happened. There were obviously plans for the penalties and Southgate said he chose who to take them to the media, but a few years ago he said having been there himself as a player, he would always let the players who volunteered to take one have it rather than telling people, i have never heard of a manager telling players they are taking penalties previous, it may of happened like that but i think its more Southgate taking the flack on the players behalf.

The test will come in Qatar, he will of learned a lot (hopefully!) and i hope he stays on to give it another go, he and the players have gave the country a lot of positivity and enjoyment the last month in what are strange times and do it whilst being likeable, successful and achieving what no other manager or group of players have.

[alex1]

A penalty shoot out comes down to a difference of millimetres, which then leads to a completly different reaction across the media.  I must admit I thought Southgate had made a smart move bringing on Rashford and Sancho, as when I've seen them taking penalties previously, they struck the ball clean and powerfully. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Italy just about deserved it, if only for having Chiesa in their team. 

[liverbaggie]

That was Hendersons last game for England

[Baggies]

The midfield didn’t two didn’t cost us last night, our tactics did. Jorginho and Barella knock it about nicely enough but they aren’t that threatening or incisive.

We sat back and allowed them to do what they are good at, which was just stupid. Momentum is masssive and we lost all of ours and handed it to them.

Italy were there for taking. I thought it would be a tough game but first half we made them look incredibly average.  I haven’t knocked the penalties, either Southgate or the plays because we know how they go. My disappointment is entirely with how we came out for the second half.

I think part of Southgate’s fear with England is that we don’t have too many top level central midfielders and he worries if we went toe to toe with a side, we would be over run. Italy had a champions league winner (Jorginho) and Serie A winner (Barella) both supporting one of the world best in the world in Veratti. We had Rice and Phillips, two decent but unspectacular mid table midfielders. This is also the case when you look throughout the top sides in Europe (Spain with Busquets and Pedri, Germany with Gundogan and Goretzka, France with Pogba and Kante, Belgium with De Bruyne and Tielemans).

If we could get a couple of world class centre mids come through, I think you might be able to have a more confident approach in games.

[Baggies]

Just reading about the racist abuse that our players have been receiving. What is wrong with these people?

Absolutely no need and no place for this in our society.

It’s less relevant now, following things such as the Rashford graffiti and some comedian’s comments (plus others), but I’ve been a bit uncomfortable with the coverage of the racial abuse and the stone cold belief it has all come from England fans.

Here is one example:

https://twitter.com/boosconf/status/1414355537781608449

A quick look through the messages reveals some sent by Italians, Indians, people from the Middle East and a number of accounts that have no profile pictures and who’s usernames include “sss.ctive” and “rss.777.7”. This is quite common in the other screen shots I’ve seen shared. If I’m honest, I’m not wholly convinced that even half of the messages are coming from people in this country. I’m even wondering if some of it is the work of the dark web agitators we have seen infiltrating the run up to elections etc. People who’s aims are dark and divisive.

I’m genuinely not trying to make light of the abuse, there has been some from within the country no doubt. I just hope that all 3 players and also any other young dual heritage kids in this country don’t get overwhelmed by thinking this is a large domestic movement, because it looks to me a lot like something else entirely.

[crazedwbafan18]

Can’t agree with this

WC SF and a Euro Final.

How manager mangers before him have won tournaments?

It hurts today, but I’m immensely proud of this side.

Gotta say though what a player Chiesa is

I feel like this too, and after some reflection, there so many positives from this tournament that hopefully we can carry forward. To finish in the world cup semis and runners up in the euros, we've beaten other european sides on that one; if you consider france/croatia/belgium didnt make the semi finals this year! Easy to look for the blame game and maybe we couldve done things differently to win it. But we havent, and gotta look to qatar in the hope maybe we can do it and finally give english fans (At least the ones who arent toxic) something to smile about.

[Windmill Baggy]

That was pretty much what happened v Croatia 3 years ago except we held on a little longer. Southgate tried to defend a lead from the opening 10 minutes. If we had carried on getting at Italy we may well have gotten a second goal.

Despite trying to pulis the result from our start he didn't make his changes until too late. And when he came to them they were wrong rice had been our best player. Henderson was shocking and really is a limited footballer he should have gone Bellingham if he wanted to change in cm. Saka had a stinker and it wasn't compounded by missing the penalty (that he shouldn't be taking) Sancho has just signed for Man Utd for £70m + and has only played 90 minutes all tournament.

We were poor v Czech Republic and Scotland. And suddenly found momentum when mount couldn't play and he changed his system. I think a better manager in charge and we win tonight our attacking talent is totally under utilised.

Although it takes a very brace decision by fa to sack a man with a World Cup semi final and a European final to his name after how Barron we had been previously.

It was what happened against Colombia in '18 also. A goal early in the second half, followed by Colombia dominating possession and England desperately trying to kill the game with every time-wasting tactic in the book before being deservedly punished for it. On that occasion they managed to win the shoot-out, but they were lucky on the night.

The way the Croatia semi-final was going to go was inevitable as soon as England scored.

As soon as England scored last night the way it was going to go was, yet again, inevitable.

This isn't entirely down to tactics though, or at least not in the way most seem to think, but the style and standard of the opposition in those games.

Southgate's game-plan has been to play with a high-intensity attack and pressing game from kick-off, hope to rattle the opposition and ultimately get an early goal, which then gives the team something to hang onto. The team for the most part isn't capable of playing like they play in the first 25-30 minutes of games for the whole 90 minutes, if they tried they'd be dead on their feet by the hour mark. As it is, after those early parts of the game teams like Croatia, Colombia and Italy eventually settle into the match, their better technical quality sees them having more and more of the ball and they begin to have the better of the game. More often than not this leads to an equaliser, which more often than not leads to England coming up short.

In fairness to Southgate, I suspect he knows that if England tried to play these teams at their own game they would be more likely to get beat, but he's developed a game plan which has proved to make this England side more competitive against the better sides.

[boingboing1989]

It’s less relevant now, following things such as the Rashford graffiti and some comedian’s comments (plus others), but I’ve been a bit uncomfortable with the coverage of the racial abuse and the stone cold belief it has all come from England fans.

Here is one example:

https://twitter.com/boosconf/status/1414355537781608449

A quick look through the messages reveals some sent by Italians, Indians, people from the Middle East and a number of accounts that have no profile pictures and who’s usernames include “sss.ctive” and “rss.777.7”. This is quite common in the other screen shots I’ve seen shared. If I’m honest, I’m not wholly convinced that even half of the messages are coming from people in this country. I’m even wondering if some of it is the work of the dark web agitators we have seen infiltrating the run up to elections etc. People who’s aims are dark and divisive.

I’m genuinely not trying to make light of the abuse, there has been some from within the country no doubt. I just hope that all 3 players and also any other young dual heritage kids in this country don’t get overwhelmed by thinking this is a large domestic movement, because it looks to me a lot like something else entirely.

With you on that one, mate, all the abuse I've seen has come from outside the country, not saying we don't have our share of idiots who probably abused them but vast majority of it has been from outside the country. Media likely using this to deflect the fact that we lost and turn the narrative around from "poor English performance" to "look at these horrible English fans" and stoke up even more tension between people.

[elmo_in_swansea]

Now the dust has settled, I'm blaming the Italians for our penalty shoot out defeat. If you noticed as Rashford & Sancho were coming on, the Italians took a quick throw in, it looked like they'd play keep ball to prevent the substitution for the last minute or so, but unluckily they forced a corner, the substitutions happened and the rest is history😭

[KYA]

It’s less relevant now, following things such as the Rashford graffiti and some comedian’s comments (plus others), but I’ve been a bit uncomfortable with the coverage of the racial abuse and the stone cold belief it has all come from England fans.

Here is one example:

https://twitter.com/boosconf/status/1414355537781608449

A quick look through the messages reveals some sent by Italians, Indians, people from the Middle East and a number of accounts that have no profile pictures and who’s usernames include “sss.ctive” and “rss.777.7”. This is quite common in the other screen shots I’ve seen shared. If I’m honest, I’m not wholly convinced that even half of the messages are coming from people in this country. I’m even wondering if some of it is the work of the dark web agitators we have seen infiltrating the run up to elections etc. People who’s aims are dark and divisive.

I’m genuinely not trying to make light of the abuse, there has been some from within the country no doubt. I just hope that all 3 players and also any other young dual heritage kids in this country don’t get overwhelmed by thinking this is a large domestic movement, because it looks to me a lot like something else entirely.

Yet again the reaction totally out of proportion all the usual suspects jumping on this bandwagon pushing their brand of diverseness into peoples faces.

[Baggies]

I understand the reaction, there has been domestic racist abuse of players, as seen by the Rashford mural incident. One incident is one incident too many. I just hope when things calm down and the investigations are carried out, if it does turn out as I suspect that a lot of this wasn’t internal but was actually from external actors, that is relayed to the players and maybe the nation. I’m sad to think that the players, and also young kids in this country, would think that the country hates them because I don’t think it’s that simple.

[baggiejohn]

Southgate got so much wrong especially on penalties I read today Saka had never taken a penalty before, what would possess a manager to select a player with limited experience of playing and zero experience of taking penalties to take one with all that pressure on him what other manager in the country would make such an elementary mistake?

Have you got the source of that information?

Allegedly they had been practicing penalties for weeks, & the 5 were selected based on performance in training.

[Baggies]

Have you got the source of that information?

Allegedly they had been practicing penalties for weeks, & the 5 were selected based on performance in training.

Haven’t got it to hand but I did see a table somebody had collated of penalties taken in pro games. Saka hadn’t taken a single one. I understand him taking one, but having him as the 5th penalty feels like a bit of a mistake. Poor kid, hope he gets over it quick.

[KYA]

Have you got the source of that information?

Allegedly they had been practicing penalties for weeks, & the 5 were selected based on performance in training.

Are you being pedantic on purpose? do you really consider taking a penalty in training is anything like taking a penalty when it matters in front of 60,000 and with the nation watching?
 Saka shouldn't have been anywhere near taking a penalty with his lack of experience.

[seteefeet]

Deeply disappointed with the result but not going to jump on the critical bandwagon. This young team has worked wonders with bringing people together and have brought far more happiness than disappointment
The reaction at the end shows how much they care and i for one am proud of every one of them.

Shame on the racists, wherever they are.

[Albionic]

i will likely get my head bitten off for this, but here goes

I would have taken Harry Kane off last night, his contribution was very poor, if we stuck Calvert-Lewin up front the dynamic would have shifted, I would also have put Bellingham on before Henderson who was awful in my opinion.

I am also surprised that no one has commented on how the Italians targetted Rice and Grealish, Their 5 bookings against our 2 shows their streetwise, cynical approach which whilst not legal is effective.

As for the penalties Southgate has taken responsibility for that, good on him, we cannot afford to scar the kids.

[baggiejohn]

Haven’t got it to hand but I did see a table somebody had collated of penalties taken in pro games. Saka hadn’t taken a single one. I understand him taking one, but having him as the 5th penalty feels like a bit of a mistake. Poor kid, hope he gets over it quick.

IMO 5th is the right place for him to be. I recall another penalty shoot out (can't remember the game), but an experienced player was placed 5th in the line. It was all over before it came to him & the manager got all sorts of ***** because of it.

Rashford has a return on penalties, only second to Harry Kane. If Rashford's shot had been 150mm to the right, it's a goal & the impetus would have been with us.

At the end of the day, they missed 2 penalties, we missed 3, it's a fine line.

Also shouldn't forget, they've been in an enclosed team environment for the last 4 weeks. Anyone with experience of that will know, it tends to be emotionally charged, especially when there's a major trophy at stake.

Pretty sure when he gets back to training with Arsenal & playing games, he'll be fine.

[baggiejohn]

Are you being pedantic on purpose? do you really consider taking a penalty in training is anything like taking a penalty when it matters in front of 60,000 and with the nation watching?
 Saka shouldn't have been anywhere near taking a penalty with his lack of experience.

He played for 40 minutes in front of 60,000 people & with the nation watching.

He was Arsenal player of the season. scored 7 goals, & had numerous assists.

He was lauded by almost all of the informed football pundits.

His confidence must have been sky high, why wouldn't he have wanted to take a penalty. Southgate saying no might have caused him more problems than missing.

As I've said on another post, if Rashford (who has the best penalty record in the squad after Harry Kane) had scored his penalty, Saka might not even have been needed.