[Albion79]

This is a chance for the other midfielders to have a run of games, if they play well i imagine they will keep the shirt, Bruce seems that type of manager (val got it wrong bringing Livermore in after the Coventry game)

People moaning about how bad Livermore is, yet now he is out there is no standout player to come in, Mowatt has been poor for months, Molumby seems a younger but worse version of Livermore so far and when he last had a chance to cement a place got sent off himself for the same type of challenge as Livermore.

 TGH has been a wide player all his youth career but now seems to be deemed the answer in centre midfield after less than 10 starts as a pro, that shows how bad our centre midfield options are, However they do now have a chance and whoever the combination is good luck to them.

The midfield is short on numbers and quality and has to be revamped in the summer, i think Livermore ideally needs to be moved on for his and the clubs sake, his game has always been getting stuck in, offering a physical presence and just doing the simple stuff, as he is getting older he wont be able to do that from centre midfielder and i dont think he has the skillset to reinvent himself as a playmaker so if he is with us next season i would hope its as a centre half where he has played numerous times before during his career.

I think he should have the on field captaincy taken off him, but keep him as club captain as he takes the role very serious and is good at it but we do need a new on the pitch captain (similar to how it worked with Fletcher and Brunt)

Although not as important as cricket or rugby, a football captain still is important, most successful teams its obvious who the captain is, some players dont need an armband and are natural leaders (jonas olsson an obvious one)

The worry with this squad is that there are no standout captains, let alone natural leaders, O’Shea seems to be a good choice, Bartley maybe next but he always seems to be blaming and moaning others and doing a lot of pointing, quite often after his own errors and there is just something about him that doesnt feel right as a captain to me.

[GREGMT]

This is not aimed specifically at you, & I applaud you & others for putting the interests of the football club first, but the vitriolic tone of some of the comments on this forum is becoming quite scary.
Add that to the same atmosphere at games, & it starts to become uncomfortable to go any more.
IMO, we need to tone it down a bit.

Unfortunately, you have a scenario where the majority of supporters are sharper and more intelligent than the Manager running the show.

Hence mass frustration.

It doesn't reflect well on the competence of the majority of professional Football Managers in England, and it's a view I've held for a long time now.

Steve Bruce is just the next man in the firing line.

If long standing fans are sick of the sight of Livermore, Phillips, Reach etc they are entitled to that view.

[wbastrollers]

Maybe the appeal was a show of 'support' for his new players, and more of a political move.
" we tried but they've upheld it" means the club has done what it can, rather than not appealing which would have resulted in the same outcome (they've got rid of the extra game ban for unsuccessful appeals).
But more importantly this makes a statement to the dressing room that Bruce 'has their backs' and will push for action to support them - something that could be key to the players 'accepting' the new gaffer and buying in to what he's trying to do.

Well done, Mooncat , I agree wholeheartedly.
Bruce will quickly come to realise what kind of support we have here at the Hawthorns!?
Ferguson won a Champions League and countless Premierships  with the World against us attitude. Would be far smarter if some just shut up and let Steve Bruce get on with the job. I feel confident that he knows what he wants from his players and who can give it to him.

[Atomic]

Unfortunately, you have a scenario where the majority of supporters are sharper and more intelligent than the Manager running the show.

Hence mass frustration.

It doesn't reflect well on the competence of the majority of professional Football Managers in England, and it's a view I've held for a long time now.

Steve Bruce is just the next man in the firing line.

If long standing fans are sick of the sight of Livermore, Phillips, Reach etc they are entitled to that view.

I'm not quite sure you've worded this post as well as you could've but I understand the point you are making and I think there is plenty of truth in it.

There is so much frustration and anger at the constant mismanagement of the club from the owner downwards. The club is going backwards because of this mismanagement and supporters are angry at it, they feel and are largely helpless, there's nothing they can do but watch on with no imminent sign that things are really going to get any better

I agree with baggiejohn that the atmosphere at the games has to change, it helps no-one when the crowd is toxic or even apathetic but you can understand why the crowd are as they are.

You have local rivals Villa and Wolves taken over by mega rich owners, splashing the cash and showing ambition and as usual Albion are blundering along and we're getting left behind.

Where's the hope? Where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Oldbury24]

I'm not quite sure you've worded this post as well as you could've but I understand the point you are making and I think there is plenty of truth in it.

There is so much frustration and anger at the constant mismanagement of the club from the owner downwards. The club is going backwards because of this mismanagement and supporters are angry at it, they feel and are largely helpless, there's nothing they can do but watch on with no imminent sign that things are really going to get any better

I agree with baggiejohn that the atmosphere at the games has to change, it helps no-one when the crowd is toxic or even apathetic but you can understand why the crowd are as they are.

You have local rivals Villa and Wolves taken over by mega rich owners, splashing the cash and showing ambition and as usual Albion are blundering along and we're getting left behind.

Where's the hope? Where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

[/b]

A bit off topic for the Jake thread but....

I genuinely think that for most fans, hope is simply to be in the mix for the playoffs whilst scoring a few goals along the way.    Even that had dissapeared under Val those last few weeks. 

Longer term, if you look at the money swishing around the PL, all we can genuinely hope to be is in that middle league between bottom six PL, Champonship top six.   The old "yo-yo" tag does fit.   Then you either hope for new owners to come in OR to unearth another Dashworth/Roy combination.

Bringing this back to Jake.  I would question if he is good enough to be Captain for a side in that middle league? 

[GREGMT]

I'm not quite sure you've worded this post as well as you could've but I understand the point you are making and I think there is plenty of truth in it.

There is so much frustration and anger at the constant mismanagement of the club from the owner downwards. The club is going backwards because of this mismanagement and supporters are angry at it, they feel and are largely helpless, there's nothing they can do but watch on with no imminent sign that things are really going to get any better

I agree with baggiejohn that the atmosphere at the games has to change, it helps no-one when the crowd is toxic or even apathetic but you can understand why the crowd are as they are.

You have local rivals Villa and Wolves taken over by mega rich owners, splashing the cash and showing ambition and as usual Albion are blundering along and we're getting left behind.

Where's the hope? Where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

Exactly, all about decision making at the club.

I'll approach this from a different angle.

WBA is drenched in history and star players starting from Jesse Pennington etc. In order to be revered you need talent, execution and longevity at that club.

I would guess we are stuck in the past, we haven't moved on with the modern game, the outlook is dated.

The fatst pace of football means fitness and athleticism is important.  In my view in recent times we held on too long with Brunt and Morrison plus others and we've fell into the same trap again with Livermore and Phillips.

Teams in 2021/22 aren't beating us with exceptional skill, it's by slicing through a slow and ponderous midfield.

At the other end end there is no actual creativity.

Have a look at XG we are hardly ever out performed game by game.  There is no big skill gap where we fall short.

[KYA]

I'm not quite sure you've worded this post as well as you could've but I understand the point you are making and I think there is plenty of truth in it.

There is so much frustration and anger at the constant mismanagement of the club from the owner downwards. The club is going backwards because of this mismanagement and supporters are angry at it, they feel and are largely helpless, there's nothing they can do but watch on with no imminent sign that things are really going to get any better

I agree with baggiejohn that the atmosphere at the games has to change, it helps no-one when the crowd is toxic or even apathetic but you can understand why the crowd are as they are.

You have local rivals Villa and Wolves taken over by mega rich owners, splashing the cash and showing ambition and as usual Albion are blundering along and we're getting left behind.

Where's the hope? Where is the light at the end of the tunnel?

This sadly sums up where we are we can blame the manager and players but the root problem is Lai the fans know this hence the frustration.

[zippyandbungle]

This is a chance for the other midfielders to have a run of games, if they play well i imagine they will keep the shirt, Bruce seems that type of manager (val got it wrong bringing Livermore in after the Coventry game)

People moaning about how bad Livermore is, yet now he is out there is no standout player to come in, Mowatt has been poor for months, Molumby seems a younger but worse version of Livermore so far and when he last had a chance to cement a place got sent off himself for the same type of challenge as Livermore.

 TGH has been a wide player all his youth career but now seems to be deemed the answer in centre midfield after less than 10 starts as a pro, that shows how bad our centre midfield options are, However they do now have a chance and whoever the combination is good luck to them.

The midfield is short on numbers and quality and has to be revamped in the summer, i think Livermore ideally needs to be moved on for his and the clubs sake, his game has always been getting stuck in, offering a physical presence and just doing the simple stuff, as he is getting older he wont be able to do that from centre midfielder and i dont think he has the skillset to reinvent himself as a playmaker so if he is with us next season i would hope its as a centre half where he has played numerous times before during his career.

I think he should have the on field captaincy taken off him, but keep him as club captain as he takes the role very serious and is good at it but we do need a new on the pitch captain (similar to how it worked with Fletcher and Brunt)

Although not as important as cricket or rugby, a football captain still is important, most successful teams its obvious who the captain is, some players dont need an armband and are natural leaders (jonas olsson an obvious one)

The worry with this squad is that there are no standout captains, let alone natural leaders, O’Shea seems to be a good choice, Bartley maybe next but he always seems to be blaming and moaning others and doing a lot of pointing, quite often after his own errors and there is just something about him that doesnt feel right as a captain to me.

Players like molumby may feel that whatever they did under Val….they were going to be binned as soon as his favourites were available again….hardly motivating is it?

[FallOutBoy]

After the Sheffield United game, here are some Livermore stats (since he signed for us):

5 years
9 managers
7 goals
5 red cards
2 relegations
1 stolen taxi

For me, he should have gone after the Moore / Shan season. He's been a big factor in the decline of the club in recent years, and I can't wait to see the back of him. Stupid decisions like going into that tackle on Wednesday are why.

[NJS]

After the Sheffield United game, here are some Livermore stats (since he signed for us):

5 years
9 managers
7 goals
5 red cards
2 relegations
1 stolen taxi

For me, he should have gone after the Moore / Shan season. He's been a big factor in the decline of the club in recent years, and I can't wait to see the back of him. Stupid decisions like going into that tackle on Wednesday are why.

Is this causation or just correlation.  I suspect it's the latter.  The woes of the past few years cannot be laid entirely at JL's feet.

[Hull Baggie]

After the Sheffield United game, here are some Livermore stats (since he signed for us):

5 years
9 managers
7 goals
5 red cards
2 relegations
1 stolen taxi

For me, he should have gone after the Moore / Shan season. He's been a big factor in the decline of the club in recent years, and I can't wait to see the back of him. Stupid decisions like going into that tackle on Wednesday are why.

you missed out the winning goals against Spurs and Hull & QPR (more important than being part of a group of players that stole a taxi) and the promotion under Bilic.

We need to improve on all our midfielders though, starting with Livermore but also including Mowatt...thankfully we can hopefully send Molumby back to Brighton reserves.

[hardtobeat]

After the Sheffield United game, here are some Livermore stats (since he signed for us):

5 years
9 managers
7 goals
5 red cards
2 relegations
1 stolen taxi

For me, he should have gone after the Moore / Shan season. He's been a big factor in the decline of the club in recent years, and I can't wait to see the back of him. Stupid decisions like going into that tackle on Wednesday are why.

Why do you list relegation but not promotion ?

[WBArgo]

Is this causation or just correlation.  I suspect it's the latter.  The woes of the past few years cannot be laid entirely at JL's feet.

I do like him as a person and will always rate him for his interview after we got promoted under Bilic and I do think he tries hard.

However, I do think he sums up our past 5 years quite nicely. I.e. He cost quite a lot at the time and underperformed, whilst simultatenously declining in form as the team declines around him. I believe he should have gone a couple of seasons ago and is very much a plodder - however it's not really his fault and it's more a problem of the board rather than any particular player or individual.

[iwastherein68]

Why do you list relegation but not promotion ?

Oh, the promotion was nothing to do with Jake mate, didn't you know?

[Albionic]

the sparseness of the midfield options is stark, especially when we have lent a bloke to stoke all season and sufficiently drunk off another such that he has walked away without a club to go to. (Sawyers and Snodders), now I know they are not world beaters and Sawyers is crocked now but it does seem frankly giss poor management under the circumstances.

[SmethDan]

Has anyone ever thought a lot of Jake's latter day midfield partners haven't always been up to much either?

[sconesy]

Has anyone ever thought a lot of Jake's latter day midfield partners haven't always been up to much either?

yes, Pereira was a clown. Some might say he carried him being a 40 mil player 🙄.

[boinging_along]

yes, Pereira was a clown. Some might say he carried him being a 40 mil player 🙄.

You could also argue that having Livermore sitting in to win the ball back and break up play (it must have been him because no way was Sawyers ever doing that!) allowed Pierera to play as expansively as he did.

Anyway, hard to tell if he was missed today.  I will say the midfield without him wasn't any better at all.

[SmethDan]

yes, Pereira was a clown. Some might say he carried him being a 40 mil player 🙄.

Pereira didn't play alongside him in midfield  .

[TheBrom]

Think this latest ban may be a blessing for us and force the manager into trying some different personnel and potentially formations. Although to be honest it’s not as though we’re flush with central midfielders any more and I’m not sure the Molumby/Mowatt combination offered anything more than we usually get with Jake.

[paulosull]

Problem at club for a long time keeping and even rewarding player’s with extensions that should have been moved on.

[KN22]

Think this latest ban may be a blessing for us and force the manager into trying some different personnel and potentially formations. Although to be honest it’s not as though we’re flush with central midfielders any more and I’m not sure the Molumby/Mowatt combination offered anything more than we usually get with Jake.

I am sure, the Molumby and Mowatt combo was no improvement whatsoever. Nothing personal against the lad but I do hope we don’t sign Molumby permanently.

[FallOutBoy]

you missed out the winning goals against Spurs and Hull & QPR (more important than being part of a group of players that stole a taxi) and the promotion under Bilic.

We need to improve on all our midfielders though, starting with Livermore but also including Mowatt...thankfully we can hopefully send Molumby back to Brighton reserves.

If you genuinely believe that then I worry.

None of the players involved in that incident should have played for us again.

[FallOutBoy]

Oh, the promotion was nothing to do with Jake mate, didn't you know?

Given how often the midfield had a gaping hole in the middle, it was probably nothing to do with Sawyers or Livermore 

[GREGMT]

Jake Livermore was good in the opening stages of the season, came back fit after pre-season, determined after being sidelined since last season.  As the realities of a 46 game season on a 32 year old became apparent, he has been found wanting although has continued to give 100% effort and application:

WITHOUT LIVERMORE STARTING                              
%           P   W   D   L   F   A   PTS   PPG   FPG   APG
22.58%   7   3   4   0   7   2   13   1.86   1.00   0.29

WITH LIVERMORE STARTING                              
%           P   W   D   L   F   A   PTS   PPG   FPG   APG
77.42%   24   9   6   9   27   24   33   1.38   1.13   1.00

LAST 14 WITH JL
%           P   W   D   L   F   A   PTS   PPG   FPG   APG
45.16%   14   3   2   9   7   16   11   0.79   0.50   1.14