[KingKoren]

I agree with a lot of that analysis Standaman however despite everything you say I'm still not completely sold on Livermore. His passing isn't great for someone playing in his position and I don't feel he recovers possession enough for a defensive midfielder, if we're saying he's an 8 then technically or physically he isn't good enough for that either. He maybe having his best season and his experience and leadership qualities undoubtedly will prove useful at times, however he just seems an average footballer to me and at his age he should be at the peak of his powers,  he's not going to get any better. Don't get me wrong he isn't bad at much but he doesn't excel at much either. Contrast him to Sawyers; we all know what he brings to this team and we all know what his shortcomings are so we need someone to compliment his style of play; Jake is trying his best but I think he falls short of what we need. The fact he is captain and contracted until 2022 like you mentioned means it will be difficult to dislodge him, but I feel we will need an upgrade in that department or we'll suffer long term.

[zippyandbungle]

I agree with a lot of that analysis Standaman however despite everything you say I'm still not completely sold on Livermore. His passing isn't great for someone playing in his position and I don't feel he recovers possession enough for a defensive midfielder, if we're saying he's an 8 then technically or physically he isn't good enough for that either. He maybe having his best season and his experience and leadership qualities undoubtedly will prove useful at times, however he just seems an average footballer to me and at his age he should be at the peak of his powers,  he's not going to get any better. Don't get me wrong he isn't bad at much but he doesn't excel at much either. Contrast him to Sawyers; we all know what he brings to this team and we all know what his shortcomings are so we need someone to compliment his style of play; Jake is trying his best but I think he falls short of what we need. The fact he is captain and contracted until 2022 like you mentioned means it will be difficult to dislodge him, but I feel we will need an upgrade in that department or we'll suffer long term.

He won’t be the only one that the club will consider upgrading, the problem is there can be many down sides to too many changes too soon
Would suggest keeper, LB position, at least one CB (Nzonzi type) and a real number 9
That’s at least 4 new ins before we even look at upgrading Bartley,Phillips,Sawyers who have all been the subject of consideration at some point this season.
Then there is Barry, brunt etc
Maybe promotion brings a lot of headaches

[Standaman]

We have 13 games left and a lot can happen which might shape my view of a player. If those 13 games end in promotion there is a fairly significant discussion to be had about the squad going forward but one which I think is premature at the moment. 

Livermore suffers from being a generalist a jack of all trades and a master of none. Both Sawyers and Krovinovic have pretty obvious limitations as footballers but they benefit from being very good at a least one part of the game. I would happily concede that Livermore could improve across the board but if you are looking for a player who is a significant upgrade in all aspects then you are looking at peak age Yaya Toure and well good luck with finding that in the Championship.

My concern for the immediate future regardless of the division we find ourselves is he is getting to the stage of career where he will naturally want to start to drop from the 8 role towards a 6. This really won't work in Bilic's current set up as the deep sitting role is filled by a playmaker. It is really difficult to accomodate Livermore in a deep sitting role which would be largely defensive.

This season might turn out to be a bit of a swan song but plainly Bilic rates him and right now he is key member of the team.

[TheJacko2000]

Yaya Toure? Extreme examples like this are hugely unhelpful. Phillips at Leeds would be a massive upgrade on Livermore.

[Standaman]

Yaya Toure? Extreme examples like this are hugely unhelpful. Phillips at Leeds would be a massive upgrade on Livermore.

Phillips is the best 6 in the division by a country mile but he is not playing the 8 role so the comparison does not entirely work.  However I wouldn't argue that his defensive contribution would better than Livermore's passing is probably comparable offensive contribution which is the one area I would say is lacking in Livermore's game  I'm not sure Phillips would be a massive uplift.

The point I was making with the Toure comparison was the Central Midfielder that do everything to a really high standard are fairly rare and anyone we are likely to hire is probably flawed in some aspects of their game. 

[Albionic]

Livermore, ain't Makele or Essien (sadly), but at our current level he is ok, the issue will come when our opposition is a class above that which we face now.

I doubt we will find a UK based upgrade who is affordable, so we have to look abroad and I think we will struggle even with this, JL might be hereabouts for a while yet.

Then again Sam Field will hopefully be fit soon, I still think that lad has a big future (injuries not withstanding)

[boinging_along]

I agree with a lot of that analysis Standaman however despite everything you say I'm still not completely sold on Livermore. His passing isn't great for someone playing in his position and I don't feel he recovers possession enough for a defensive midfielder, if we're saying he's an 8 then technically or physically he isn't good enough for that either. He maybe having his best season and his experience and leadership qualities undoubtedly will prove useful at times, however he just seems an average footballer to me and at his age he should be at the peak of his powers,  he's not going to get any better. Don't get me wrong he isn't bad at much but he doesn't excel at much either. Contrast him to Sawyers; we all know what he brings to this team and we all know what his shortcomings are so we need someone to compliment his style of play; Jake is trying his best but I think he falls short of what we need. The fact he is captain and contracted until 2022 like you mentioned means it will be difficult to dislodge him, but I feel we will need an upgrade in that department or we'll suffer long term.

Isn't it a bit unfair to compare him to Sawyers though?  I mean, Sawyers IS playing the DM roll rarely actually wins the ball back.  Livermore does a lot of the heavy lifting in CM, wins the ball back more than Sawyers and gets forward more.  I think Livermore and Sawyer's games do compliment each other.  Livermore wins the ball back, gives it to Sawyers and then gets forward.  We have someone cleaning up and calming the game down as well as someone who will put a foot in and do his best getting forward.

Sure there's better players at getting a foot in than Livermore, AND players who are better at getting forward.  There's not a HUGE amount of players, who we could sign, who are better at both.  And if we get someone who is better at the DM side, then we lose out on the attacking side of the game.   Likewise, if we get someone in who is better at going forward, we lose out on the DM side and there's no way Sawyers is up to playing as a proper DM.

If anything, if we feel that we *must* improve on those two players, it would make more sense to improve on Sawyers and get a DM who will win the ball back and not leave it all to Livermore. 

Personally, I think there's nothing much wrong in the CM department.   This is the first season they've played together and we are top of the league going into the final run in.   Our biggest problem there is lack of depth.

albionic posted as I was typing mine out with a similar view.   

[WBAinDEVON]

how he got england caps under southgate is beyond me

[Dan87uk]

Really poor game today....barely had a sniff of the ball and looked laboured waddling about the pitch trying to catch the shadows of Brentford midfielders and looked spent after about 30 mins.

The problem is there's not really much you can replace him with right now... Harper looked terrible when he came on, Barry and Brunt are not the answer either and the fact of the matter is, Livermore is the skipper so is first name on the sheet in most instances.

[zippyandbungle]

Really poor game today....barely had a sniff of the ball and looked laboured waddling about the pitch trying to catch the shadows of Brentford midfielders and looked spent after about 30 mins.

The problem is there's not really much you can replace him with right now... Harper looked terrible when he came on, Barry and Brunt are not the answer either and the fact of the matter is, Livermore is the skipper so is first name on the sheet in most instances.

The answer was under our noses
Tosin is playing in midfield for Blackburn and running games

[paulosull]

He looks unfit and his only attributes are his fitness,

[TheJacko2000]

A terrible footballer, was at Spurs, was at Hull, has been for us.

Arguably the worst player to ever wear an England shirt.

Got done for class A drugs and one of the Cab 4.

Nauseating seeing this captain fantastico ********.

[JMullen95]

A truly woeful footballer.

[alex1]

Really poor game today....barely had a sniff of the ball and looked laboured waddling about the pitch trying to catch the shadows of Brentford midfielders and looked spent after about 30 mins.

The problem is there's not really much you can replace him with right now... Harper looked terrible when he came on, Barry and Brunt are not the answer either and the fact of the matter is, Livermore is the skipper so is first name on the sheet in most instances.

He has an awkward first touch and alot of his passes are overhit instead of being weighted like Pereira's or Krovinovic's. Thereofre he is pretty useless at setting up decent goalscoring openings or chances for others.
Defensively he's powerful and gets tackles in, but he needs to lose some weight to keep up with the more athletic and quicker opponents (such as Brentford have got).

[hunsletbaggie]

Thought Jake had a good game tonight ran his heart out and covered a lot of ground good captains performance one woeful strike at goal though from a good situation.

[TheJacko2000]

Thought Jake had a good game tonight ran his heart out and covered a lot of ground good captains performance one woeful strike at goal though from a good situation.

Thought the game passed him by aside from a good 10 minute spell after the 2nd substitution (Kanu for Austin). His presence meant we lost something on the ball and that 'effort' sums the lad up as a technician.

[hunsletbaggie]

Thought the game passed him by aside from a good 10 minute spell after the 2nd substitution (Kanu for Austin). His presence meant we lost something on the ball and that 'effort' sums the lad up as a technician.

Who do you think was doing most of the pressing all game. And this comes from someone who said only 4 hours ago that Bilic had bottled team selection you definitely have an agenda when it comes to certain players.

[baggie38]

Thought the game passed him by aside from a good 10 minute spell after the 2nd substitution (Kanu for Austin). His presence meant we lost something on the ball and that 'effort' sums the lad up as a technician.

We were clearly watching a very different game. Livermore top draw from start to finish. Who was doing most of the pressing? He gave us our crunch in midfield today and the rest has clearly done him good.

[TheJacko2000]

Who do you think was doing most of the pressing all game. And this comes from someone who said only 4 hours ago that Bilic had bottled team selection you definitely have an agenda when it comes to certain players.

The pressing in our team (for the most part) is done by Austin Pereira, Grosicki and Diangana. Hope this helps.

[baggie82]

Yep, Livermore (who I have heavily criticised at times) was great this evening. Superb energy to press them and to lead the team up the pitch. His passing and movement was also better. Massive upgrade on Harper and he is a shoe-in to start alongside Sawyers at Blackburn. Predictably Jacko is criticising him.

[iwastherein68]

Captain Magnifico is back.

[TheJacko2000]

Yep, Livermore (who I have heavily criticised at times) was great this evening. Superb energy to press them and to lead the team up the pitch. His passing and movement was also better. Massive upgrade on Harper and he is a shoe-in to start alongside Sawyers at Blackburn. Predictably Jacko is criticising him.

You've mentioned Hegazi who wasn't even playing, more than anyone who was playing since full time... I've not even criticised him, I'm just not waxing lyrical because he barely contributed.

[KN22]

He played well today. Some will never admit it, that we know.

[Webby]

Played well against Derby.  He presses high like Slav wants us too and won that ball high up the pitch which set Pereira up in the box, for which he should have done better and made it 2-0 much earlier.

[beechyboy90]

Livermore did alright he presses and harries that's what he brings to the party.