Author Topic: Guochuan Lai  (Read 2370151 times)

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paulosull

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2025 on: May 21, 2016, 11:39:54 AM »
There is no evidence whatsoever that says Peace has asked for £200m or any other specific price. The £200m is what the implied price that you get if you look at what Everton went for and applied a relative valuation to WBA. Equally a majority stake was sold in Swansea which valued the club at £100m and it could be argued we are worth something similar although it should be noted they don't actually own the Liberty stadium. All clubs are different and putting a value on an asset as unique as a football club is not an exact science.

We simply don't know the asking price and we won't know until the club is sold. At some point Peace will sell up he won't go forever but unlike Lerner he isn't desperate to sell either.
will become desperate if our end of year form continues into new season as the football rights are the only valuable asset we have to be looking  for north of 50 million on asking price

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2026 on: May 21, 2016, 08:56:22 PM »
We simply don't know what Peace thinks the club is worth it is merely an educated guess on part of the writer who assumes rightly that the club is worth more now than when it was initially put up for sale due to the increased TV revenues.

Based on the Everton sale a price of 2 times turnover is probably not unreasonable which with the new TV deal would give a price of around £250m. Given the relegation risk and the nature of the assets if I was a buyer I be would haggling very hard to get that down to £200m but £150m would be a steal.

I had a quick look at valuing Albion based on what we know.  As I've said before, I'm not involved in this deal but have bought and brokered a few that have similarities and I used the same model I have previously used. Someone earlier mentioned a multiple of EBITDA.  Personally I wouldn't use that as earnings are far too easy to (legitimately) manipulate although I accept that it's much better than the net profit figure that the E&S etc quote.  I much prefer to use cash flow as it is much harder to dispute.  You either have cash or not.  This is especially important when looking at the massive impact of player transfers.  I believe one needs to take out all player profit and loss and then add in a normalised net player transfer loss per annum.   The methodology I used was:

Apply something called Discounted Cash Flow (DCF).  This is basically a way of turning a stream of future cash flows (such as future TV rights, gate receipts etc) into a value today.  For those who haven't come across the concept you can think about what value you would place on a fiver each year promised by your mate.  A fiver next year is worth less than a fiver today due to inflation and it is worth even less if there is a risk he won't pay.  Albion have an uncertain stream of cash flow as you go out further into the future.  Next year they have revenues guaranteed by the PL and parachute payments after that.  There is therefore a lot of short term certainty (although we aren't certain about net cash flows as wage increases etc are unknowns) but long term rapidly gets uncertain.  The discount rate that is applied to these cash flows is a function of the cost of financing and/or the internal rate of return( IRR)demanded by an investor.  The more leverage needed and the higher the perceived risk,  the more the cash flows are discounted.   We can get a pretty good idea of the discount rates from the cost of "factoring" that almost every PL club uses when selling a player on deferred payment terms.  The costs of these are in the 6-9% range and that gives us a fair indication of the market price of finance.

The DCF part is the crucial part of the valuation.  It's got nothing to do with whether we play good or bad football.  It's just the present value of a stream of cash and allows Albion to be compared to other cash generating assets such as an annual rock concert, a pay and display car park or block of student flats. 

I have read the comparison made by others with the value of Everton but I personally believe that the "half as much=half as valuable" argument is wrong from a DCF perspective for two crucial and linked reasons.  If I were building a DCF for Everton I would happily assume PL cash flow for 10+ years, much longer than for Albion.  I know that other Everton sized clubs have lost PL status but in general,  I believe there is much more (and more than twice) the cash flow predictability than for Albion.  I would also suggest that the risk is great and therefore the IRR or finance cost would need to be much higher (and therefore the discount rate greater).  To give an analogy,  is a tenner a year twice as valuable as a fiver a year?  What if the tenner was promised by a very wealthy and trustworthy friend and the fiver was promised by someone far less reliable? The former is probably 3 or 4 times more valuable, not twice as valuable.

Beyond the very short term  (I modelled 3-5 years),  PL survival is so unpredictable that I simply added a stub value of £20m that could be thought of as the option value attached to a Championship club.  We know that a club's value jumps when it enters the PL and therefore a Championship club with a chance of returning to the PL must have an option value even if its assets and operating cash flows aren't worth much more.

The only thing to add to the equation of DCF+Stub value is any trophy asset premium or hidden asset value. Someone may be happy to pay over the top for the rights to own something cool.  I have assumed in my model that this isn't the case for Albion and that there is no realisable value from redeveloping the Hawthorns in the way that Chelsea, Fulham etc could.

Using this model and publicly available data I struggled to get anywhere near £200m.  To do so required one or more of the following:

-PL cash flows to be modelled way out beyond 5 years
-Unrealistic cost control, especially around player wages. Basically one would have to assume that the new TV deal all goes into the club's coffers rather than players and agents.
-A very low cost of funds or very low IRR expectations.
-A high stub value in the Championship
-A trophy asset premium
-A spell in the Champions League

There's clearly a lot of detail that I don't know about this deal which could effect my model but based on what I can see,  the value of £120-150m is (in my view) much closer to the mark than the £200-250m that is now being mentioned.  Let's see...


caravanc58

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2027 on: May 21, 2016, 09:37:15 PM »
I had a quick look at valuing Albion based on what we know.  As I've said before, I'm not involved in this deal but have bought and brokered a few that have similarities and I used the same model I have previously used. Someone earlier mentioned a multiple of EBITDA.  Personally I wouldn't use that as earnings are far too easy to (legitimately) manipulate although I accept that it's much better than the net profit figure that the E&S etc quote.  I much prefer to use cash flow as it is much harder to dispute.  You either have cash or not.  This is especially important when looking at the massive impact of player transfers.  I believe one needs to take out all player profit and loss and then add in a normalised net player transfer loss per annum.   The methodology I used was:

Apply something called Discounted Cash Flow (DCF).  This is basically a way of turning a stream of future cash flows (such as future TV rights, gate receipts etc) into a value today.  For those who haven't come across the concept you can think about what value you would place on a fiver each year promised by your mate.  A fiver next year is worth less than a fiver today due to inflation and it is worth even less if there is a risk he won't pay.  Albion have an uncertain stream of cash flow as you go out further into the future.  Next year they have revenues guaranteed by the PL and parachute payments after that.  There is therefore a lot of short term certainty (although we aren't certain about net cash flows as wage increases etc are unknowns) but long term rapidly gets uncertain.  The discount rate that is applied to these cash flows is a function of the cost of financing and/or the internal rate of return( IRR)demanded by an investor.  The more leverage needed and the higher the perceived risk,  the more the cash flows are discounted.   We can get a pretty good idea of the discount rates from the cost of "factoring" that almost every PL club uses when selling a player on deferred payment terms.  The costs of these are in the 6-9% range and that gives us a fair indication of the market price of finance.

The DCF part is the crucial part of the valuation.  It's got nothing to do with whether we play good or bad football.  It's just the present value of a stream of cash and allows Albion to be compared to other cash generating assets such as an annual rock concert, a pay and display car park or block of student flats. 

I have read the comparison made by others with the value of Everton but I personally believe that the "half as much=half as valuable" argument is wrong from a DCF perspective for two crucial and linked reasons.  If I were building a DCF for Everton I would happily assume PL cash flow for 10+ years, much longer than for Albion.  I know that other Everton sized clubs have lost PL status but in general,  I believe there is much more (and more than twice) the cash flow predictability than for Albion.  I would also suggest that the risk is great and therefore the IRR or finance cost would need to be much higher (and therefore the discount rate greater).  To give an analogy,  is a tenner a year twice as valuable as a fiver a year?  What if the tenner was promised by a very wealthy and trustworthy friend and the fiver was promised by someone far less reliable? The former is probably 3 or 4 times more valuable, not twice as valuable.

Beyond the very short term  (I modelled 3-5 years),  PL survival is so unpredictable that I simply added a stub value of £20m that could be thought of as the option value attached to a Championship club.  We know that a club's value jumps when it enters the PL and therefore a Championship club with a chance of returning to the PL must have an option value even if its assets and operating cash flows aren't worth much more.

The only thing to add to the equation of DCF+Stub value is any trophy asset premium or hidden asset value. Someone may be happy to pay over the top for the rights to own something cool.  I have assumed in my model that this isn't the case for Albion and that there is no realisable value from redeveloping the Hawthorns in the way that Chelsea, Fulham etc could.

Using this model and publicly available data I struggled to get anywhere near £200m.  To do so required one or more of the following:

-PL cash flows to be modelled way out beyond 5 years
-Unrealistic cost control, especially around player wages. Basically one would have to assume that the new TV deal all goes into the club's coffers rather than players and agents.
-A very low cost of funds or very low IRR expectations.
-A high stub value in the Championship
-A trophy asset premium
-A spell in the Champions League

There's clearly a lot of detail that I don't know about this deal which could effect my model but based on what I can see,  the value of £120-150m is (in my view) much closer to the mark than the £200-250m that is now being mentioned.  Let's see...
very interesting and insightful view of how a club may be valued. over my head though, can I use Tesco clubcard?. :)

baggiejohn

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2028 on: May 22, 2016, 09:05:26 AM »
I had a quick look at valuing Albion based on what we know.  As I've said before, I'm not involved in this deal but have bought and brokered a few that have similarities and I used the same model I have previously used. Someone earlier mentioned a multiple of EBITDA.  Personally I wouldn't use that as earnings are far too easy to (legitimately) manipulate although I accept that it's much better than the net profit figure that the E&S etc quote.  I much prefer to use cash flow as it is much harder to dispute.  You either have cash or not.  This is especially important when looking at the massive impact of player transfers.  I believe one needs to take out all player profit and loss and then add in a normalised net player transfer loss per annum.   The methodology I used was:

Apply something called Discounted Cash Flow (DCF).  This is basically a way of turning a stream of future cash flows (such as future TV rights, gate receipts etc) into a value today.  For those who haven't come across the concept you can think about what value you would place on a fiver each year promised by your mate.  A fiver next year is worth less than a fiver today due to inflation and it is worth even less if there is a risk he won't pay.  Albion have an uncertain stream of cash flow as you go out further into the future.  Next year they have revenues guaranteed by the PL and parachute payments after that.  There is therefore a lot of short term certainty (although we aren't certain about net cash flows as wage increases etc are unknowns) but long term rapidly gets uncertain.  The discount rate that is applied to these cash flows is a function of the cost of financing and/or the internal rate of return( IRR)demanded by an investor.  The more leverage needed and the higher the perceived risk,  the more the cash flows are discounted.   We can get a pretty good idea of the discount rates from the cost of "factoring" that almost every PL club uses when selling a player on deferred payment terms.  The costs of these are in the 6-9% range and that gives us a fair indication of the market price of finance.

The DCF part is the crucial part of the valuation.  It's got nothing to do with whether we play good or bad football.  It's just the present value of a stream of cash and allows Albion to be compared to other cash generating assets such as an annual rock concert, a pay and display car park or block of student flats. 

I have read the comparison made by others with the value of Everton but I personally believe that the "half as much=half as valuable" argument is wrong from a DCF perspective for two crucial and linked reasons.  If I were building a DCF for Everton I would happily assume PL cash flow for 10+ years, much longer than for Albion.  I know that other Everton sized clubs have lost PL status but in general,  I believe there is much more (and more than twice) the cash flow predictability than for Albion.  I would also suggest that the risk is great and therefore the IRR or finance cost would need to be much higher (and therefore the discount rate greater).  To give an analogy,  is a tenner a year twice as valuable as a fiver a year?  What if the tenner was promised by a very wealthy and trustworthy friend and the fiver was promised by someone far less reliable? The former is probably 3 or 4 times more valuable, not twice as valuable.

Beyond the very short term  (I modelled 3-5 years),  PL survival is so unpredictable that I simply added a stub value of £20m that could be thought of as the option value attached to a Championship club.  We know that a club's value jumps when it enters the PL and therefore a Championship club with a chance of returning to the PL must have an option value even if its assets and operating cash flows aren't worth much more.

The only thing to add to the equation of DCF+Stub value is any trophy asset premium or hidden asset value. Someone may be happy to pay over the top for the rights to own something cool.  I have assumed in my model that this isn't the case for Albion and that there is no realisable value from redeveloping the Hawthorns in the way that Chelsea, Fulham etc could.

Using this model and publicly available data I struggled to get anywhere near £200m.  To do so required one or more of the following:

-PL cash flows to be modelled way out beyond 5 years
-Unrealistic cost control, especially around player wages. Basically one would have to assume that the new TV deal all goes into the club's coffers rather than players and agents.
-A very low cost of funds or very low IRR expectations.
-A high stub value in the Championship
-A trophy asset premium
-A spell in the Champions League

There's clearly a lot of detail that I don't know about this deal which could effect my model but based on what I can see,  the value of £120-150m is (in my view) much closer to the mark than the £200-250m that is now being mentioned.  Let's see...

In your opinion, what would motivate a potential buyer of WBA?

For example, AVFC right now is a train crash, & there are plenty of development opportunities for the new buyer to improve the value of the FC, as well as promoting his own products and services.

I don't see too many development opportunities at WBAFC, on the other hand there is clearly scope for promoting products & services, & if the FC continues to use the current model, a regular income for the buyer.
Based on published figures, it would be possible to take an income of circa £2 million  a year out of the FC, without having a negative impact, so based on your estimated value, a potential buyer would be in profit within 6-8 years.
Would that be attractive to potential buyers?
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

baggie96

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2029 on: May 23, 2016, 05:25:54 PM »
A couple more thought to be ITK'ers have said its close now, does anyone know anything re the takeover on here? Apparently chinese owners?

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2030 on: May 23, 2016, 05:47:41 PM »
More likely to be Chinese whispers than a Chinese takeover very unlikely information on a takeover would leak. Nobody who hasn't signed a confidentiality agreement in their own blood would be allowed anywhere near it a huge pinch of salt required.
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2031 on: May 23, 2016, 05:49:29 PM »
The only ITK I trust is baggie79, not come across another other ITK worth their salt.

baggie96

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2032 on: May 23, 2016, 06:07:41 PM »
Tom ross has tweeted now saying deal is moving forward. Very strange

smosher34

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2033 on: May 23, 2016, 06:18:27 PM »
I wouldn't belive a lot tom ross says either .

Standaman

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2034 on: May 23, 2016, 06:21:06 PM »
Tom ross has tweeted now saying deal is moving forward. Very strange
Seriously probably looked at the ITK tweets and decided to run with it
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HampshireBaggie

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2035 on: May 23, 2016, 06:31:33 PM »
There are no ITK tweets or reports I've had a search!

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2036 on: May 23, 2016, 07:30:55 PM »
There are no ITK tweets or reports I've had a search!

There is one from Tom Ross

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2037 on: May 23, 2016, 09:22:35 PM »
There is one from Tom Ross
Tom Ross admitted he was just following speculation though further into the tweet. It's just like any fan saying it, Tom Ross didn't have anything to go on and was merely passing on small talk.

Standaman

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2038 on: May 23, 2016, 09:36:32 PM »
That is shoddy journalism from Tom Ross
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2039 on: May 24, 2016, 08:55:02 AM »
It can't even be described as journalism  ;D

I think it originated from another Albion site yesterday from someone who has been regarded as ITK before but quite frankly his info has been somewhat hit and miss from what I've seen the last few years. I think I saw someone else say something a day or two before but I have no idea what their ITK record is. I still believe that like last year we won't hear anything concrete until a deal is pretty close to being done due to all the confidentiality clauses that will be involved.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 09:15:34 AM by B_H_Baggie »

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2040 on: May 24, 2016, 09:45:19 AM »
Did you know the Chinese buyer of Aston Villa is the same person who wanted to buy the Albion but back then could not come up with the £££££ now he has bought Villa on the cheap and may well be loading the club with the debt to buy.
 Jeremy for our benefit would not allow him to do that with the Albion so he only wants a paid for up front deal, god bless him!
"

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2041 on: May 24, 2016, 10:05:24 AM »
Did you know the Chinese buyer of Aston Villa is the same person who wanted to buy the Albion but back then could not come up with the £££££ now he has bought Villa on the cheap and may well be loading the club with the debt to buy.
 Jeremy for our benefit would not allow him to do that with the Albion so he only wants a paid for up front deal, god bless him!

Do we know its the same buyers for certain or are we just guessing?

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2042 on: May 24, 2016, 10:11:03 AM »
Did you know the Chinese buyer of Aston Villa is the same person who wanted to buy the Albion but back then could not come up with the £££££ now he has bought Villa on the cheap and may well be loading the club with the debt to buy.
 Jeremy for our benefit would not allow him to do that with the Albion so he only wants a paid for up front deal, god bless him!

I don't think there is anyway of substantiating that but it's a nice thought couldn't afford the Baggies so bought the Villa instead :o

Going forward I don't think we will hear anything about a sale until it happens, we won't have last summer's for sale for a limited time only. It serves no purpose and just puts a cloud of uncertainty around the club. I think the lesson from last time is that until the deal is done there is no point in trying to second guess what new owners might want to do just carry on running the club as if a sale isn't going to happen and the buyer will either buy that or they won't.   
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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2043 on: May 24, 2016, 03:54:43 PM »
100% it is the same person who has now "bought" Villa who previously tried to buy us
"

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2044 on: June 05, 2016, 07:10:54 PM »
Eric thohir to sell 40% of his shares  in inter Milan for £264 million where will he invest next !!!

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2045 on: June 05, 2016, 07:12:44 PM »
Lets hope not here

paulosull

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2046 on: June 06, 2016, 11:24:11 AM »
Thought it was the Italian bloke who was interested in investing in Prem team massimo his second name eludes me the correct me if I'm wrong majority share holder in inter until Chinese take over

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2047 on: June 06, 2016, 05:31:08 PM »
No it was Eric the Italian as sold out Eric as kept 30% but sold his other 40% so he is now not majority shareholder so he can purchase another club now if he wishes

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2048 on: June 18, 2016, 09:47:19 PM »
Indy kila or something has been tweeting tonight that a Chinese takeover is close. Maybe bull. There's no actual link to any story anywhere. But him and tom ross now. Hopefully something may be happening.

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Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #2049 on: June 18, 2016, 09:57:22 PM »
Indy kila or something has been tweeting tonight that a Chinese takeover is close. Maybe bull. There's no actual link to any story anywhere. But him and tom ross now. Hopefully something may be happening.

He is the BIGGEST liar on Twitter and literally churns out hundreds of nonsense stories on a weekly basis, most of which are complete rubbish. Even writing about him is a waste of time as he doesn't deserve the air space, he is infamously bad.

Tom Ross was merely saying there were twitter rumours and admitted he knew nothing, so really there is no story here.