Author Topic: Scouting/Transfers  (Read 42038 times)

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Astle1968

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Scouting/Transfers
« on: June 20, 2017, 02:15:32 PM »
Does anybody know exactly what our procedure is for signing players, who is involved in the process and who has the final say?

The more and more I see the players we are being linked with in public the more I wonder what the point in us having a worldwide and potentially even European scouting network in this current set up.

I understand Pulis has been watching several games in person presumably scouting and I think I'm right in saying he has the final say on incomings, but can anyone shed any more light on how it works and who is involved at each stage?



baggiebof

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 02:28:49 PM »
This was in The Guardian over the weekend, gives some insight to how it works:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/17/transfers-premier-league-scouting-recruitment

Nicky Hammond, Albion’s technical director, oversees recruitment and also has responsibility for the scouting department. Brought in from Reading 14 months ago and vastly experienced, Hammond coordinates the club’s five domestic full-time scouts and a further six full-time scouts in Europe. Matty Phillips, signed from QPR for £6m last summer, is one of Hammond’s success stories, with the winger enjoying an excellent first season. Albion also have a recruitment manager, Jonathan Gibson, who works from the training ground and has responsibility for the video analysis of players of interest. Tony Pulis, Albion’s manager, has the final say on any signings.

A5HB

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 02:48:25 PM »
I was lucky enough to go to a Q & A where Pulis and Fletcher were talking at the end of last year. One of the questions Pulis was asked was in relation to the scouts and how we use them to find player abroad. Pulis said that the scouts still look all across Europe to identify players, but ultimately he won't sign a player without seeing them live himself and being impressed enough to want them. That doesn't mean we won't sign players from abroad, but he won't let the club bring in players he doesn't rate. His argument was that it's ultimately his job on the line so he'd be foolish to trust his job to players he doesn't want.

I also remember Garlick talking not long after Pulis arrived about a change to the way we scout. We had previously focussed on casting the net as far as possible and collecting info on a huge amount of players. The issue with this is that you end up with very limited info on most of the players. Pulis was keen to change this so that we focussed in a bit more and looked at fewer players so that we could build up lore I depth profiles.

ashdoy

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 03:11:17 PM »
After many years working in the game myself in scouting (full-time) I like to think i know a bit about this - i can be your go to guy for any questions on this subject haha.

As for TP's stance, yes i sort of agree with him on the whole "see before you buy" but this doesnt really work consistantly at a club like Albion.

Because he only likes players he knows lots about, and working full time in the Premier League means he rarely gets ample opportunity to go abroad himself, means we are targetting players in the highest priced market.

Albion arent renowned for spending over the odds, or spending vasts amounts on various players, so we are working in a very diluted market.

BigFrank20

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 03:50:14 PM »
This was in The Guardian over the weekend, gives some insight to how it works:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/17/transfers-premier-league-scouting-recruitment

Nicky Hammond, Albion’s technical director, oversees recruitment and also has responsibility for the scouting department. Brought in from Reading 14 months ago and vastly experienced, Hammond coordinates the club’s five domestic full-time scouts and a further six full-time scouts in Europe. Matty Phillips, signed from QPR for £6m last summer, is one of Hammond’s success stories, with the winger enjoying an excellent first season. Albion also have a recruitment manager, Jonathan Gibson, who works from the training ground and has responsibility for the video analysis of players of interest. Tony Pulis, Albion’s manager, has the final say on any signings.
That makes 11 full time scouts and why have 6 in Europe when there is a 90% probability Tone won't ever see their European based recommendations let alone agree to their coming to the Albion?
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johnny Cash

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 03:53:29 PM »
That makes 11 full time scouts and why have 6 in Europe when there is a 90% probability Tone won't ever see their European based recommendations let alone agree to their coming to the Albion?

I see the point re Pulis but it would also be very shortsighted to get rid of them based on the current manager.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 04:55:02 PM »
Hammond on 6 figures plus 11 on 40K (guess) plus expenses.

Its a hell of an investment in a dead end,  something will have to give on that scenario, I cannot imagine another business that would support such waste long term.
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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 05:10:39 PM »
Hammond on 6 figures plus 11 on 40K (guess) plus expenses.

Its a hell of an investment in a dead end,  something will have to give on that scenario, I cannot imagine another business that would support such waste long term.
Do you think the Premier League has a long term plan? Do you think anyone earning off the back of the Premier League gives a toss about the future of the industry that they're financially benefiting from? I don't. They'll all make hay while the sun shines. Sad really, isn't it. It's a car crash waiting to happen.
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BigFrank20

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 05:14:11 PM »
I see the point re Pulis but it would also be very shortsighted to get rid of them based on the current manager.
I didn't suggest getting rid just wondering if it was efficient use of resources as per Albionic's post?

With those numbers we could almost have one each permanently attached to prem clubs who deal at our level
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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 06:07:28 PM »
Are we still as airtight as we were under peace? The local media dont seem to have a clue.

I dont pay attention to rumours tbf, its built in to me. Saves embarrassing knee jerks when we arent even in for the player.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 10:54:46 PM »
From the outside it looks like a car crash. In Jan John Williams said we needed 2 or 3 top quality players. I thought we needed more but I took top quality as 1st team players but we track a young left back for over a year who we can sign right now but are worried it MAY cost us 2 million more than we want to pay ( even though he will have some resale value) it doesn't look like we have tracked/indentified any players by this I mean spoke to his agent established if he would come how much it would cost etc. Even worst it seems we cannot decide what position we are looking for 1 day centre half, then left back, then striker, then winger, then centre mid, then striker. The fault must lie with Hammond
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TheBrom

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 11:03:49 PM »
To be fair, we only here what is reported or rumoured in the press. For all we know we're working through a list of targets that the club is keeping quiet

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 08:41:49 AM »
From the outside it looks like a car crash. In Jan John Williams said we needed 2 or 3 top quality players. I thought we needed more but I took top quality as 1st team players but we track a young left back for over a year who we can sign right now but are worried it MAY cost us 2 million more than we want to pay ( even though he will have some resale value) it doesn't look like we have tracked/indentified any players by this I mean spoke to his agent established if he would come how much it would cost etc. Even worst it seems we cannot decide what position we are looking for 1 day centre half, then left back, then striker, then winger, then centre mid, then striker. The fault must lie with Hammond

maybe it's because we are looking at all those positions? maybe we have been doing lots of contact with agents but have managed to do it on the quiet while the media link us with every mid range Tom,Dick & Harry. Perhaps deals are near to completion.

Agree about Charlie Taylor though, if we want him we should offer a fair price then we either get him or we move on. But again maybe we are closer to signing him than any of us realises? We are good at keeping our business out of the media..Chadli being a good example of that.

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kirk

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 09:50:32 AM »
maybe it's because we are looking at all those positions? maybe we have been doing lots of contact with agents but have managed to do it on the quiet while the media link us with every mid range Tom,Dick & Harry. Perhaps deals are near to completion.

Agree about Charlie Taylor though, if we want him we should offer a fair price then we either get him or we move on. But again maybe we are closer to signing him than any of us realises? We are good at keeping our business out of the media..Chadli being a good example of that.

Normally I would agree with you but how many transfer windows does the same thing happen time and time again...... something is wrong somewhere?
It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 11:47:15 AM »
Normally I would agree with you but how many transfer windows does the same thing happen time and time again...... something is wrong somewhere?
having a look at the other teams' sites... we aren't special. Teams getting linked to players at random, bouncing from attack to defence and getting linked to certain players over and over again.

Astle1968

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 03:01:08 PM »
So we have 6 full time European scouts and since Jan 2014 we have signed 1 player who wasn't already in England.

The cost of employing them is pretty negligible but it just seems like an absolute waste of everyone's time. I'd also imagine the scouts themselves are extremely p1ssed off with the situation.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 05:13:35 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:15:20 PM by Dexy »
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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 05:45:04 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.
It's not only abroad though is it? There are always players in the lower leagues who go on to be very good Premier league footballers, but we seem to largely ignore them as well. Is a scout not there to assess who is going to make the grade and then make recommendations to the manager? Either the British ones aren't doing their jobs or Pulis is ignoring their advice. Dunno which, but it is very frustrating

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2017, 05:45:13 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.

Yacob and Mulumbu were both from abroad
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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2017, 05:46:44 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.

Yacob, Mulumbu, Olsson, Koren? I'd argue all were fairly successful for us.

The problem with shopping exclusively in the English market is that very rarely will we get a player who is of the quality required to push us to the next level. We can't afford to buy those sorts and so staying in this market is accepting mediocrity, 6/10 players (with the rare exception eg Evans). Shopping abroad is admittedly higher risk but it opens up the possibilities of hidden gems whose value far exceeds what we pay and can take us forward, rather than just keep afloat.

And even shopping in the British market, you'll get the odd Galloway.

Astle1968

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 05:49:57 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.

Olsson, Mulumbu, Yacob big succeses

Amalfitano, Koren, Fortune and probably more that were successful to a degree

You could name loads of English buys that have been hits (Morrison, Brunt, Gmac, Foster etc) and loads that haven't worked out (Chester, Lambert, McMananan) that on paper ticked a lot of boxes.

There's no rule that signing players from the UK or abroad will be better/worse either way. No matter where we sign players from some will always work out and some won't. Phillips and McManaman are two examples of players with pretty similar characteristics, pretty similar careers behind them and similar transfer fee's. One was an absolute failure and the other is one of our best players now. But limiting ourselves to just one market is just stupid. Firstly it's the most expensive market in world football to shop from which is ridiculous when compared to our peers we have one of the lowest budgets. Secondly if we exclusively sign players that our peers don't want we are never going to go anywhere. We might get the odd one who is passable such as Nyom or Sess but for every 1 of him there seems to be 5 Anichebe's and Lamberts.

Players like Evans and Chadli (and even then theres question marks about Chadli) who are genuinely a class above what we have should be pursued and I'd put someone like Smalling in this category. But although I don't have anything against Rodriguez or Deeney types as such they are both just 'meh' at best. Completely uninspiring and we could easily pick up players with the same potential for half the price on the continent. Yes they might not work but as we've seen elsewhere there no guarantee Deeney or Rodriguez would be a success either.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2017, 05:53:32 PM »
Not for one moment am I defending Pulis and his 'won't buy abroad policy' but since we returned to the top flight under Megson how many of our buys straight from overseas have been a success at the highest level ? Will have to be first time in this League if we are measuring by the Pulis rule. Genuine question.
Gera clearly , PIG , Rondon to a degree , Odemwingie....
I don't like it but I can see why Pulis does it with his job on the line.
Yacob? Olsson? Fortune (does Scotland count?), Tamas did a decent Job as cover, Amalfitano was a good loan and got a move to West Ham from it. Mulumbu was a hero for a time, Jara did well if not spectacular. There are a few if you go through them

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/west-bromwich-albion/alletransfers/verein/984

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2017, 05:59:22 PM »
Koren never convinced in the top flight for my money , Yacob / Mulumbu / Olsson great examples though.
So in 8 seasons I think so far we have come up with maybe 9 good foreign signings and I suspect Dan Ashworth was behind a few of them .
It certainly doesn't help matters Pulis came into a struggling club containing Samaras , Blanco , a hugely unfit Varela and Ideye. I don't like it but I do understand where Pulis comes from regarding overseas players.
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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »
Yacob? Olsson? Fortune (does Scotland count?), Tamas did a decent Job as cover, Amalfitano was a good loan and got a move to West Ham from it. Mulumbu was a hero for a time, Jara did well if not spectacular. There are a few if you go through them

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/west-bromwich-albion/alletransfers/verein/984

Fortune came to us from France on loan before Celtic were ever in the picture.

We have proven in the past with Ashworth, the right scouting network and an open minded manager that there are bargains to be had out there. Sadly we lack two of the three now and I have no idea on the merits of our European scouting network who probably just bang there head against a brick wall on a daily basis trying to recommend players to Pulis.

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Re: Scouting/Transfers
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2017, 06:05:03 PM »
Yacob? Olsson? Fortune (does Scotland count?), Tamas did a decent Job as cover, Amalfitano was a good loan and got a move to West Ham from it. Mulumbu was a hero for a time, Jara did well if not spectacular. There are a few if you go through them

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/west-bromwich-albion/alletransfers/verein/984
Jara was never good enough for the top flight , Fortune better second time around for some reason.
Tamas never convinced me , Amalfitano I liked but fair to say faded badly and by all acconts wasn't too popular behind the scenes. As I say I don't agree with TP's stance on this and it baffles me why he even bothers going on these scouting trip.
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