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Offline baggiejohn

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14175 on: April 21, 2017, 08:40:45 AM »
The budget is the budget it won't vary depending on where we finish in the league table by much if anything, a lot of the merit payments go to the players by way of bonuses.

His contract is a different kettle of fish. On the one hand a top half finish is still more likely than not and that would probably get him an extension although a poor end to the season might see the board delay until the early part of next season. He's not going anywhere so there is little or no point in having him on a long contract it will only cost us more if we sack him.

Tony talking down the club and managing our expectations is all part of him keeping his job with the lowest level of achievement possible e.g. 40 to 50 points poor efforts in the cups and safety first football. He will not change our current position is not a platform to develop it is a danger to him because it comes close to raising the bar and making his life more difficult.

Part of me would love board to take leave of their collective senses and throw £100m at him just to see what happens and give him a new challenge in managing our expectations.

As ever I wouldn't expect a different manager to get better results but they might achieve them without the miserable hang dog conservatism that Tony Pulis embodies.

I agree with most of what you say Stan, & if you look at the remaining fixtures, it's hard to see us finishing lower than 10th, even if we don't win another game.
As a result, he will have met part of the challenge laid down by the board at the beginning of the season, & probably be offered an extension to his contract.

On the other hand, I can't imagine Guochuan Lai will have bought WBAFC for mid table mediocracy, & he will want to win something. As you say TP's conservatism, both in playing style & player selection, has caused him to paint himself into a corner.
IMO, at some stage, the board will want to appoint a head coach who can motivate a more eclectic group of players.
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Offline TheBrom

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14176 on: April 21, 2017, 09:12:27 AM »
I'm sure this has been gone over before but to my knowledge if they win the Europa League nothing will change, Premier League won't get an extra Europa League spot no matter what happens.

Yep that's true. We only have the 7 places in the league whatever happens

Offline WBAinDEVON

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14177 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:59 AM »
So why have WM touched on this everynight this week?
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Offline Hunnington Baggie

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14178 on: April 21, 2017, 09:22:09 AM »
So why have WM touched on this everynight this week?
because they barely understand the field the have built careers on?

Offline leeiswba

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14179 on: April 21, 2017, 09:31:57 AM »
England will only have 7 European spaces whatever happens. 4 champions league and 3 Europa League.

If United win the Europa League it will be 5 Champions League and 2 Europa League

Offline Fritzl Palace

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14180 on: April 21, 2017, 09:55:06 AM »
Also, we won't be finishing 8th so not really much point worrying too much about it, Southampton will catch us following a number of lackluster performances from our lot.

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14181 on: April 21, 2017, 11:19:26 AM »
Also, we won't be finishing 8th so not really much point worrying too much about it, Southampton will catch us following a number of lackluster performances from our lot.

Southampton have a number of tricky fixtures still to come: Chelsea away, Hull home, Liverpool away, Arsenal home, Boro away, Man Utd and Stoke home. Not so sure they will pick up a lot of points from those games.
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Offline Fritzl Palace

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14182 on: April 21, 2017, 03:44:55 PM »
Southampton have a number of tricky fixtures still to come: Chelsea away, Hull home, Liverpool away, Arsenal home, Boro away, Man Utd and Stoke home. Not so sure they will pick up a lot of points from those games.

I still fancy them to pick up more than we will, even with our relatively 'easier' fixture list, based upon what I have been watching of late.

Offline TheBrom

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14183 on: April 21, 2017, 04:04:38 PM »
Personally think we'll get at least another 6 points

Offline Signor_Maresca

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14184 on: April 21, 2017, 04:42:39 PM »
Surprised people are suggesting we have a favourable run in, to me our fixtures look tough. 

Leicester who are increasingly looking like last seasons version.
Burnley who have the 6th best home record in the league (better than United's and City's).
Chelsea and Man City.
And Swansea who will probably doing their damnedest to stay in the division on the last day.

I think a top 10 place is no way guaranteed, especially when you consider Southampton have 2 games in hand and Watford have hit some late season form (3 wins in their last 4).
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Offline WBAinDEVON

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14185 on: April 21, 2017, 06:54:06 PM »
So why have WM touched on this everynight this week?


Again tonight on WM if we finish 8th and Man U win the europa baggie Eddy this time said we will be in europe along with Franksie
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Online caravanc58

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14186 on: April 21, 2017, 07:26:00 PM »

Again tonight on WM if we finish 8th and Man U win the europa baggie Eddy this time said we will be in europe along with Franksie
sure it was in the media that no matter who won what there would be no European spot for a team finishing 8th, hope they was wrong though.

Offline Standaman

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14187 on: April 22, 2017, 09:10:26 AM »
Radio WM don't know their arses from their elbows. There will only ever be 7 European places for English clubs end of.

Getting back on topic.

Following on from what BaggieJohn was saying about mid table mediocrity and how that might impact Pulis' future. Here is where we get into a bit of a minefield of second guessing of what the owner wants from the club and what constitutes mid-table mediocrity or the dreaded next level.

Without substantial (£200m+ over and above what the club generates from it's current operations) investment it is probably unreasonable for Lai to demand a 8th place or better finish from a coach. There is nothing to suggest that level of investment will be forthcoming and I have never thought for a moment that it would be.

I think more realistically we are aiming for top half finishes cup runs and the holy grail of European football but without the level of investment that gives the owner the right to demand those things. All of which is entirely reasonable but the coach's future is a lot less clear cut. How far do we sink into the mid-table morass before it becomes unacceptable?

Does style matter? If we are trying to promote the club in China does anything other than our Premier League status matter or does  football that switches off TV audiences faster than a Party Political broadcast hamper our progress?

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions and until something happens that forces Lai to show his hand then I take it is survival first and anything else is a bonus and Pulis has a job for the foreseeable future.
 
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Offline adamw1109

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14188 on: April 22, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »
In normal circumstances, four UCL places are given to English clubs who fulfil the following criteria:
  • The top three teams in the Premier League qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The fourth-placed team in the Premier League qualify for the play-off round.

In normal circumstances, three UEL places are given to English clubs who fulfil the following criteria:

  • The fifth-placed team in the Premier League qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The winners of the FA Cup qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The EFL Cup winners qualify for the third qualifying round.

Where these qualifications changes

a) If the FA Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League, their UEL group stage place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

b) If the EFL Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League (or top six if (a) happens), their UEL third qualifying round place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

How qualification for English teams may change were United to win the UEL:

  • If Man Utd win the UEL and finish in the top four of the Premier League, the top four PL teams will all qualify for the UCL group stage unless the 2016/17 UCL winners fail to qualify for the group stage via their domestic championship finishing position. Then Man Utd, as UEL winners, would go into the UCL play-off round stage.
  • If Man Utd win the UEL and finish outside the top four of the Premier League, the top three PL teams will qualify for the UCL group stage, the fourth-placed team will qualify for the UCL play-off round and Man Utd will qualify for the UCL group stage unless the 2016/17 UEFA Champions League winners fail to qualify for the group stage via their domestic championship finishing position. Then Man Utd would go into the UCL play-off round.
  • If Man Utd win the UEL their place in the UEL third qualifying round for winning the EFL Cup would go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

So basically because Man united won the EFL, that is their route into Europa league, but if they win the Europa league that gets them into the champions league (which eliminates them from Europa league) which adds 1 extra place for English teams to qualify (takes it to top 6)

If a top 5 team win the FA cup (either chelsea, spurs, man city ATM)... That then gives a place to the next highest ranked team (7th place)

Winners of the Europa league qualify for champions league... so if Man united win it this season that adds another place to qualify because they are already in europa league next season due to winning the EFL and they cant take part in both competitions!  (8th place)

Taken and explained from... https://www.premierleague.com/news/373663

We would have to be really lucky and other teams results go our way... but if we somehow manage to keep our 8th place til the end of the season.... European football is definitely possible.

Offline DivinePast

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14189 on: April 22, 2017, 07:37:22 PM »
Watford and Stoke losing means it's increasingly unlikely that they will pass us now.

Offline Adder

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14190 on: April 22, 2017, 07:50:40 PM »
Watford and Stoke losing means it's increasingly unlikely that they will pass us now.
Watford's remaining games.... 4 of the 5 are against current top 6 sides and the other one against Leicester. They've tended to ship goals against the big boys so yes they will do well to get above us now.

Offline AlbionDaz

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14191 on: April 23, 2017, 08:11:47 AM »
I would personally consider renewing,if he gave the Younger players much more game time,didn't play his favourites so often,when there obviously either knackered,or not having an effect on the game,set up the team so the striker isn't so isolated for long periods.

Offline VANDERLEI

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14192 on: April 25, 2017, 08:31:20 AM »
I would personally consider renewing,if he gave the Younger players much more game time,didn't play his favourites so often,when there obviously either knackered,or not having an effect on the game,set up the team so the striker isn't so isolated for long periods.

So 8th place and lots of goals wasn't enough for you to renew?

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14193 on: April 25, 2017, 08:39:18 AM »
So 8th place and lots of goals wasn't enough for you to renew?

I'm not sure 39 goals in 33 games is "lots of goals". 11 teams have scored more than us.
It does make you think how many we could have got with some decent goalscorers and baring in mind we have only scored in 1 of our last 7 games but have created plenty of chances in those games.
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Offline WoysWunderful

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14194 on: April 25, 2017, 09:22:51 AM »
Tbf the finshing this second half of the season from all the players, not just the strikers, has been woeful. If we'd put away half the chances , we'd be top 10 scorers no doubt

The best part about being this well disciplined and drilled is that it isnt as temporary and flimsy as just pure form, unless the squad gets a case of the mowbrays over the summer, i cant see us lingering near the bottom 7 and if more clinical finshers come in, well what a exciting times to be an albion fan. Im 26 and this is the best its been in my lifetime

Offline ABaggie

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14195 on: April 25, 2017, 01:25:39 PM »
In normal circumstances, four UCL places are given to English clubs who fulfil the following criteria:
  • The top three teams in the Premier League qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The fourth-placed team in the Premier League qualify for the play-off round.

In normal circumstances, three UEL places are given to English clubs who fulfil the following criteria:

  • The fifth-placed team in the Premier League qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The winners of the FA Cup qualify for the group stage proper.
  • The EFL Cup winners qualify for the third qualifying round.

Where these qualifications changes

a) If the FA Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League, their UEL group stage place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

b) If the EFL Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League (or top six if (a) happens), their UEL third qualifying round place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

How qualification for English teams may change were United to win the UEL:

  • If Man Utd win the UEL and finish in the top four of the Premier League, the top four PL teams will all qualify for the UCL group stage unless the 2016/17 UCL winners fail to qualify for the group stage via their domestic championship finishing position. Then Man Utd, as UEL winners, would go into the UCL play-off round stage.
  • If Man Utd win the UEL and finish outside the top four of the Premier League, the top three PL teams will qualify for the UCL group stage, the fourth-placed team will qualify for the UCL play-off round and Man Utd will qualify for the UCL group stage unless the 2016/17 UEFA Champions League winners fail to qualify for the group stage via their domestic championship finishing position. Then Man Utd would go into the UCL play-off round.
  • If Man Utd win the UEL their place in the UEL third qualifying round for winning the EFL Cup would go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

So basically because Man united won the EFL, that is their route into Europa league, but if they win the Europa league that gets them into the champions league (which eliminates them from Europa league) which adds 1 extra place for English teams to qualify (takes it to top 6)

If a top 5 team win the FA cup (either chelsea, spurs, man city ATM)... That then gives a place to the next highest ranked team (7th place)

Winners of the Europa league qualify for champions league... so if Man united win it this season that adds another place to qualify because they are already in europa league next season due to winning the EFL and they cant take part in both competitions!  (8th place)

Taken and explained from... https://www.premierleague.com/news/373663

We would have to be really lucky and other teams results go our way... but if we somehow manage to keep our 8th place til the end of the season.... European football is definitely possible.

Unfortunately you have ignored the most straightforward statement on the link you have posted.....

                              "The maximum numbers of English teams in UEFA competitions is seven"

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 01:29:03 PM by ABaggie »

Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14196 on: April 25, 2017, 02:32:27 PM »
Unfortunately you have ignored the most straightforward statement on the link you have posted.....

                              "The maximum numbers of English teams in UEFA competitions is seven"


Haha.


Didn't even click the link because I knew the whole premise was wrong...
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Offline adamw1109

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14197 on: April 25, 2017, 03:12:56 PM »
Unfortunately you have ignored the most straightforward statement on the link you have posted.....

                              "The maximum numbers of English teams in UEFA competitions is seven"

I also put in bold the key works... In Normal circumstances and Where these qualifications changes.

If the FA Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League, their UEL group stage place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

If the EFL Cup winners finish in the top five of the Premier League (or top six if (a) happens), their UEL third qualifying round place will go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

If Man Utd win the UEL their place in the UEL third qualifying round for winning the EFL Cup would go to the next-highest ranked team not qualified for UEFA competitions in the Premier League.

Chelsea and Arsenal are in the final... whoever wins the FA Cup gets put into Europa league - that's one extra place if they both finish in the top 5. (Takes it to 6th place)

Manchester United have won the EFL Cup so aslong as they finish in the top 5 thats another place because they can't be entered into both the UCL and the UEL or more than one which is common sense. (Takes it to 7th place)

The winner of the UEL qualify for champions league, so if Manchester United win it... they are already qualified to compete in Europe due to winning the EFL cup so that adds another place. (Takes it to 8th place)

If a team qualifies for a Champions league/Europa league more than once (Man United for example... winning the EFL Cup and finishing top 5 - both of those achievements earn them a place... they can only fill one space )... It has to filter down to the next highest place that hasn't qualified for European football.

The limit is NOT seven, it is eight.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/10253604/champions-league-and-europa-league-qualification-for-premier-league-teams-explained

No more than five clubs can enter the Champions League and no more than three can enter the Europa League from one national association. (5 + 3 = 8 )

We have the whole of the internet at our hands and people still can't use their initiative to do their research before telling people they are wrong.  ::)

Offline adamw1109

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14198 on: April 25, 2017, 03:14:46 PM »

Haha.


Didn't even click the link because I knew the whole premise was wrong...

Really? so your saying the official premier league and sky sports websites are wrong?  ::)


Offline B_H_Baggie

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Re: Tony Pulis
« Reply #14199 on: April 25, 2017, 03:34:34 PM »
http://www.uefa.org/about-uefa/executive-committee/news/newsid=2226990.html

In addition, a number of competition regulations were approved by the Executive Committee, including those for the 2015–18 UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League. Mr Infantino made one clarification in terms of positions available in UEFA's club competitions for the new cycle.

"Clubs winning either the UEFA Champions League or the UEFA Europa League," he said, "will not add an extra place to the total number of places available for that association in the subsequent club competition season – with one exception.

"The only time an association can gain an additional place in the subsequent season's club competitions will be if one of their clubs wins either the UEFA Champions League or the UEFA Europa League and, at the same time, does not finish in a place in their domestic league or domestic cup which automatically grants a place in a UEFA club competition.

"It should also be stated," he added, "that an association with, for example, four places in the UEFA Champions League can increase their participation to five places should a club from their association win the UEFA Europa League in the previous season.

"If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Champions League via their domestic league, then the association remains with four places in the UEFA Champions League. If that club has already qualified for the UEFA Europa League via their domestic league, it results in five clubs participating in the UEFA Champions League, and two – not three – participating in the UEFA Europa League."
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