[Albionic]

A very good post and I agree with a lot of what you say, our style doesn't particularly suit him and he is often isolated. However:
My main gripes with Rondon aren't just that he doesn't score many goals it's that when he does get chances they are rarely on target, I wouldn't mind him missing if he made the keeper make a save around 50% of the time but he usually balloons them wide or over the bar.
 For someone with his build he is incredibly easy to knock off the ball and has resorted now to going down under minimum contact from defenders looking for cheap freekicks he doesn't get . He doesn't often hold the ball up.
He scored 1 goal for every 11.7 chances he got, he didn't score for 16 games; that isn't all down to Pulis and the way we play.

For me Rondon is at least as much to blame as Pulis.

Could you concede that
a) he might be dis-heartened not playing to his strengths
b) he may be falling over because he has been coached to, dead balls are our most effective weapon, so make as many dead ball situations as possible by falling over!? Maybe?
c) he is the lone striker and may not be fully fit but has to play
d) Fletcher said some time ago that the team are coached to hit areas of the pitch with few or even no WBA players in it, so we can then compete for the second ball (bizarre logic in my mind)
e) all or some of the above can result in poor confidence and therefore either trying too hard or just a simple loss of form.

What is effective for the team (TP football) isn't always going to be effective for individuals and IMO Rondon is suffering because of this.

VRabbit, I get the impression you think all Albion fans are getting on Rondons case, thats not true,

[vrabbit]

Could you concede that
a) he might be dis-heartened not playing to his strengths
b) he may be falling over because he has been coached to, dead balls are our most effective weapon, so make as many dead ball situations as possible by falling over!? Maybe?
c) he is the lone striker and may not be fully fit but has to play
d) Fletcher said some time ago that the team are coached to hit areas of the pitch with few or even no WBA players in it, so we can then compete for the second ball (bizarre logic in my mind)
e) all or some of the above can result in poor confidence and therefore either trying too hard or just a simple loss of form.

What is effective for the team (TP football) isn't always going to be effective for individuals and IMO Rondon is suffering because of this.

VRabbit, I get the impression you think all Albion fans are getting on Rondons case, thats not true,

not at all, I do feel that a majority of Albion fans are fed up with Rondon which is why my general tone reflects that, but I do know I'm not the only one who would disagree with the idea that "Rondon is at least as much to blame as Pulis", to me that's absurd. It's using Salo as a scapegoat.

[beechyboy90]

I think rondon standards dropped abit but that's probably down to complacency lack of competition for his shirt and probably frustration to how we play under pulis.

The way we set up and play we ask for miracles from rondon

[Hull Baggie]

not at all, I do feel that a majority of Albion fans are fed up with Rondon which is why my general tone reflects that, but I do know I'm not the only one who would disagree with the idea that "Rondon is at least as much to blame as Pulis", to me that's absurd. It's using Salo as a scapegoat.

It's not absurd or using Rondon as a scapegoat at all, if I was scapegoating him I'd be saying it's all his fault but I'm not I'm saying he has to share the blame for his poor form with Pulis.
Also how come he scored more goals from less chances in a team playing much more defensively last season than this then if it's all down to tactics/Pulis.
I think you're stoic defence of Rondon is largely based on a shared Nationality.

Could you concede that
a) he might be dis-heartened not playing to his strengths
b) he may be falling over because he has been coached to, dead balls are our most effective weapon, so make as many dead ball situations as possible by falling over!? Maybe?
c) he is the lone striker and may not be fully fit but has to play
d) Fletcher said some time ago that the team are coached to hit areas of the pitch with few or even no WBA players in it, so we can then compete for the second ball (bizarre logic in my mind)
e) all or some of the above can result in poor confidence and therefore either trying too hard or just a simple loss of form.

What is effective for the team (TP football) isn't always going to be effective for individuals and IMO Rondon is suffering because of this.

VRabbit, I get the impression you think all Albion fans are getting on Rondons case, thats not true,

Of course I can concede your points Albionic. Can you also concede that it may be because Rondon just isn't quite up to this standard?

[vrabbit]

Hull, I guess it really depends on how much YOU blame Pulis. I put A LOT of blame on him and therefore the idea that Rondon shares blame equally with him is a bit much. And while nationality obviously makes me a Rondon fan I try to keep an objective perspective, it's why I don't even dare to question he had a poor second half of the season. No one has yet to respond to my comment that his full 2016 (January through December) was really really good, a much larger sample size so how do we explain that?

On one end there's a guy with an established scoring rate in Spain, Russia, CL and UEL, and on the other end there's a manager with an established record of not having high-scoring players. Those are facts.

[Hull Baggie]

Hull, I guess it really depends on how much YOU blame Pulis. I put A LOT of blame on him and therefore the idea that Rondon shares blame equally with him is a bit much. And while nationality obviously makes me a Rondon fan I try to keep an objective perspective, it's why I don't even dare to question he had a poor second half of the season. No one has yet to respond to my comment that his full 2016 (January through December) was really really good, a much larger sample size so how do we explain that?

On one end there's a guy with an established scoring rate in Spain, Russia, CL and UEL, and on the other end there's a manager with an established record of not having high-scoring players. Those are facts.

I think Pulis has to take some of the blame but Rondon also has to take his share of the blame. Same with Chadli.
I think he had a good 2016 rather than a really really good 2016, but why are we missing out the games he played in 2015 and 2017. I'd rather judge him on his whole time at the Albion and in that time he has declined that is also a fact. He scored more goals in a team playing more defensively last season that is another fact. We created more chances for him this season, he scored less goals. He got worse.

His inability to hold the ball up is another concern for me too as is the fact that he is often bullied off the ball by smaller players. A smart player would surely be able to adapt their game to suit their situation?

He misses far too many chances that he should at least be getting on target, as I've repeatedly said it's not so much his lack of goals that bothers me it's his inability to even hit the target.

A high scoring rate in lesser leagues is hardly a good bench mark. What those stats don't show is who the goals were against? Was he a regular scorer against the top sides in Spain and Russia or did he score most of his goals against the sides at the bottom?
Also his goals in the Cl and EL may well have all come in qualifying rounds or in matches against the weaker teams in the group rather than against tougher opposition. I genuinely have no idea who he scored against in those competitions.

Most fans will accept that we played a more attacking style of play and were quicker on the counter attack between November and the end of February last season when we picked up the majority of our points. Now that is supposed to be a style of play that suits Rondon yet he scored 4 goals and 1 assist out of the 21 goals we scored. Surely our main striker should be contributing more than that?

Until we either get rid of Pulis and get a coach who plays more conssistently to Rondons' style or Rondon moves to another Pl side with a style of play more suited to him we will always be arguing over where the blame lies for his declining form.

[tylerm]

Sorry All but after watching him for 2 years he is not a good Premier League striker. He is slow, doesn't jump, cant hold a ball up, fails to close down defenders, never makes runs  and cant get chances on target
He has had numerous opportunities to get shots away and fails all the time
The best player we have had to perform  that role in recent times is Marc Antoine Fortune and Rondon is nowhere near him as a lone striker
I am not counting Odemwingie as he was a different type of striker (and the only true PL striker we have had)

[Wollastonbaggie]

Sorry All but after watching him for 2 years he is not a good Premier League striker. He is slow, doesn't jump, cant hold a ball up, fails to close down defenders, never makes runs  and cant get chances on target
He has had numerous opportunities to get shots away and fails all the time
The best player we have had to perform  that role in recent times is Marc Antoine Fortune and Rondon is nowhere near him as a lone striker
I am not counting Odemwingie as he was a different type of striker (and the only true PL striker we have had)

I agree. We should be looking for 2 new strikers as neither of the ones we have are good enough to be no 1 or 2. I actually favour RK over SR,and if we keep 1 of then I'd rather it were RK.  Anichibe had the skills we wanted , it's a pity he was so mentally and physically fragile.

[seteefeet]

I think Pulis has to take some of the blame but Rondon also has to take his share of the blame. Same with Chadli.
I think he had a good 2016 rather than a really really good 2016, but why are we missing out the games he played in 2015 and 2017. I'd rather judge him on his whole time at the Albion and in that time he has declined that is also a fact. He scored more goals in a team playing more defensively last season that is another fact. We created more chances for him this season, he scored less goals. He got worse.

His inability to hold the ball up is another concern for me too as is the fact that he is often bullied off the ball by smaller players. A smart player would surely be able to adapt their game to suit their situation?

He misses far too many chances that he should at least be getting on target, as I've repeatedly said it's not so much his lack of goals that bothers me it's his inability to even hit the target.

A high scoring rate in lesser leagues is hardly a good bench mark. What those stats don't show is who the goals were against? Was he a regular scorer against the top sides in Spain and Russia or did he score most of his goals against the sides at the bottom?
Also his goals in the Cl and EL may well have all come in qualifying rounds or in matches against the weaker teams in the group rather than against tougher opposition. I genuinely have no idea who he scored against in those competitions.

Most fans will accept that we played a more attacking style of play and were quicker on the counter attack between November and the end of February last season when we picked up the majority of our points. Now that is supposed to be a style of play that suits Rondon yet he scored 4 goals and 1 assist out of the 21 goals we scored. Surely our main striker should be contributing more than that?

Until we either get rid of Pulis and get a coach who plays more conssistently to Rondons' style or Rondon moves to another Pl side with a style of play more suited to him we will always be arguing over where the blame lies for his declining form.

I fear we won't really know how good, or bad, he is until he moves on.

The truth is that Pulis sides never have, and probably never will, produce or support a 15-20 goal a season striker, so it becomes a bit of a moot point to judge them on goals scored.

As for his all round game and contribution, at times he's looked unplayable and MotM by a mile, at others he's looked like a non league player. Whether it's confidence or external forces, he just seems a bit to inconsistent for this side and this league.
He may move on to a more attack minded team and set the world alight but I doubt it, more likely he will still suffer the same peaks and troughs that he has here.

[Albionic]

It's not absurd or using Rondon as a scapegoat at all, if I was scapegoating him I'd be saying it's all his fault but I'm not I'm saying he has to share the blame for his poor form with Pulis.
Also how come he scored more goals from less chances in a team playing much more defensively last season than this then if it's all down to tactics/Pulis.
I think you're stoic defence of Rondon is largely based on a shared Nationality.
Of course I can concede your points Albionic. Can you also concede that it may be because Rondon just isn't quite up to this standard?

I can concede that MAY be the case, but i the absence of facts, my opinion is Rondons downturn in conversion  rate may be due to to an amalgam of factors not all of which are down to Rondon.

[Hull Baggie]

I can concede that MAY be the case, but i the absence of facts, my opinion is Rondons downturn in conversion  rate may be due to to an amalgam of factors not all of which are down to Rondon.

And they are also not all down to Pulis but both have to take responsibility that's always been my point. Other posters, not you in particular, seem to want to blame Pulis for all the ills with players and whilst he obviously has a role in that the players have to shoulder the blame as well.

I keep seeing people mention 15-20 goals. I've never ever mentioned that many goals and I wouldn't expect Rondon to get that many but with the chances he does get I think it's reasonable for him to have scored around 12 which he hasn't..he struggled to get to 8.

[Dexy]

Two issues for me , one we don't really play to his strengths.
Back to goal and balls at his throat give him little to work with whilst often out numbered. Its Pulis's way , that won't change and he has rarely had a high scorer in his sides.
Secondly Rondon simply isn't clinical , he misses guilt edge chances at this level he should be scoring.
I like him but we need more from him.

[paulosull]

Rate rondon and think  he'd score  more if pulls had the balls to play two up top. At start  of last season  chadli  played of him and they were handful both scoring goals  then tp  went back to form

[Hull Baggie]

Rate rondon and think  he'd score  more if pulls had the balls to play two up top. At start  of last season  chadli  played of him and they were handful both scoring goals  then tp  went back to form

Chadli and Rondon looked good together in the game against West Ham where Chadli scored 2 (1 assist from Rondon) and made the other 2. Apart from that I don't think they linked up that well.

During our best period of the season Chadli scored 1 goal and assisted a further 2 (none of which were for Rondon), Rondon scored 4 goals and got 1 assist in the same spell.

Chadli scored 4 of his 5 goals before his operation. After his operation he didn't look anything like the same player.

[geoff]

He receives the ball in the wrong area of the pitch, to many are just in the opponent's half & not enough on the edge of their box & that's down to our set up play.

[vrabbit]

I think Pulis has to take some of the blame but Rondon also has to take his share of the blame. Same with Chadli.
I think he had a good 2016 rather than a really really good 2016, but why are we missing out the games he played in 2015 and 2017. I'd rather judge him on his whole time at the Albion and in that time he has declined that is also a fact. He scored more goals in a team playing more defensively last season that is another fact. We created more chances for him this season, he scored less goals. He got worse.

His inability to hold the ball up is another concern for me too as is the fact that he is often bullied off the ball by smaller players. A smart player would surely be able to adapt their game to suit their situation?

He misses far too many chances that he should at least be getting on target, as I've repeatedly said it's not so much his lack of goals that bothers me it's his inability to even hit the target.

A high scoring rate in lesser leagues is hardly a good bench mark. What those stats don't show is who the goals were against? Was he a regular scorer against the top sides in Spain and Russia or did he score most of his goals against the sides at the bottom?
Also his goals in the Cl and EL may well have all come in qualifying rounds or in matches against the weaker teams in the group rather than against tougher opposition. I genuinely have no idea who he scored against in those competitions.

Most fans will accept that we played a more attacking style of play and were quicker on the counter attack between November and the end of February last season when we picked up the majority of our points. Now that is supposed to be a style of play that suits Rondon yet he scored 4 goals and 1 assist out of the 21 goals we scored. Surely our main striker should be contributing more than that?

Until we either get rid of Pulis and get a coach who plays more conssistently to Rondons' style or Rondon moves to another Pl side with a style of play more suited to him we will always be arguing over where the blame lies for his declining form.

we're coming closer to agreement then, of course Rondon has to take his share of the blame. No question. Equally as at fault as TP? That's where we differ.

I still find you a bit harsh on your overall assessment of Rondon, feel like you're judging him more by how he has performed lately (which in fairness is what how this business is) than his overall production. Wouldn't it be fair to state that his first half season here (2015) he was adjusting to his new team? 3 goals and 2 assists in 18 games (16 starts). In 2016 he goes on to score 7 goals (+ 1 assist) in the second half of his first season at the club (22 games, 19 starts, 1 DNP) and then 7 more (+ 2 assists) in the second half of the year (20 games, 17 starts). You define 14 goals and 3 assists over a full year in a TP side as just GOOD? You  just said him getting 12 goals on this side would be reasonable.

Yes he is highly inconsistent at holding up the ball, not one of his strengths. However, playing in a different system with the NT it's so noticeable that that aspect of his game has gotten better. Yes he's had a poor 2017 so far.

I think he's the guy that has scored against Sevilla (multiple times, including in UEL), Valencia, Atletico, Barcelona (2 different times), Inter (UEL, 2 different times), Zenit, CSKA, Dortmund (UEL), Leverkusen (CL), and PSV (UEL x2) among other clubs (because you want to make sure I point out the top competition), had an ok first half season at Albion before a VERY GOOD 2016.

You seem to think he is the guy who has had a poor 2017.

He's 27, in his prime. I'm just not ready to write him off yet.

[TheBrom]

Hull, I guess it really depends on how much YOU blame Pulis. I put A LOT of blame on him and therefore the idea that Rondon shares blame equally with him is a bit much. And while nationality obviously makes me a Rondon fan I try to keep an objective perspective, it's why I don't even dare to question he had a poor second half of the season. No one has yet to respond to my comment that his full 2016 (January through December) was really really good, a much larger sample size so how do we explain that?

On one end there's a guy with an established scoring rate in Spain, Russia, CL and UEL, and on the other end there's a manager with an established record of not having high-scoring players. Those are facts.

He's only scored one goal in the whole of 2017 so far

[Adder]

Rate rondon and think  he'd score  more if pulls had the balls to play two up top. At start  of last season  chadli  played of him and they were handful both scoring goals  then tp  went back to form

....and Phillips was playing who drifted inside as a second striker on occasions and did a bit of the battling that Rondon is usually on his own to do. It's not so much playing two up top but obviously decent support from wider players / AM helps.

[Hull Baggie]

we're coming closer to agreement then, of course Rondon has to take his share of the blame. No question. Equally as at fault as TP? That's where we differ.

I still find you a bit harsh on your overall assessment of Rondon, feel like you're judging him more by how he has performed lately (which in fairness is what how this business is) than his overall production. Wouldn't it be fair to state that his first half season here (2015) he was adjusting to his new team? 3 goals and 2 assists in 18 games (16 starts). In 2016 he goes on to score 7 goals (+ 1 assist) in the second half of his first season at the club (22 games, 19 starts, 1 DNP) and then 7 more (+ 2 assists) in the second half of the year (20 games, 17 starts). You define 14 goals and 3 assists over a full year in a TP side as just GOOD? You  just said him getting 12 goals on this side would be reasonable.

Yes he is highly inconsistent at holding up the ball, not one of his strengths. However, playing in a different system with the NT it's so noticeable that that aspect of his game has gotten better. Yes he's had a poor 2017 so far.

I think he's the guy that has scored against Sevilla (multiple times, including in UEL), Valencia, Atletico, Barcelona (2 different times), Inter (UEL, 2 different times), Zenit, CSKA, Dortmund (UEL), Leverkusen (CL), and PSV (UEL x2) among other clubs (because you want to make sure I point out the top competition), had an ok first half season at Albion before a VERY GOOD 2016.

You seem to think he is the guy who has had a poor 2017.

He's 27, in his prime. I'm just not ready to write him off yet.

Thanks for letting me know the sides he has scored against in Spain, Russia, EL and CL. Some very good sides there, can't argue with that.

I'm not sure why you want to keep judging him on 2016 alone (apart from the fact that using that as a stat makes him look better). I'm judging him on the 2 seasons he's had with us which is the more logical approach to take. By all the stats he was better in his first season with us when we were playing even less to his strengths than last year and he was also getting used to playing in the premier league. Why? Surely if it's down to tactics then he should have been worse in his first season with a side that rarely attacked and failed to score a goal a game...and in fact went something like 7 games without registering a shot on target. Last season we played more attacking football more often, got more balls into the box, he had more chances than in his first season yet scored less.

As for your comment about 14 goals in a year , again that's spread over 2 seasons. I said I'd expect him to get 12 goals a season which over 2 seasons would be 24 and he's got 18 which is good but not very good.

[Hull Baggie]

He receives the ball in the wrong area of the pitch, to many are just in the opponent's half & not enough on the edge of their box & that's down to our set up play.

what about the chances he does get that he misses though. I accept that he is often isolated but when he does get decent chances he misses more often than not.

[TheJacko2000]

what about the chances he does get that he misses though. I accept that he is often isolated but when he does get decent chances he misses more often than not.

A quote that could be attributed to every centre forward in the history of the game.


No one has a better than 50 percent conversion rate.

[TheBrom]

I know everyone on here loves my stats posts, so here goes.

I've been meaning to post these stats for a while, but haven't had time. Sacrificed some of my lunch break for it as I'm that sad  . A lot has been argued about how many chances Rondon misses, and how other strikers also miss chances. But when you look at the figures below, you'll see that Rondon's conversion rate when compared equally against other strikers is by far the worst. This is where we must improve.

Here are the stats for shot conversion for strikers in every team last season. That is, the percentage of shots/headers that ended up being a goal. I've taken the top two scorers from each team to keep it comparable. In most cases these are the team's main two strikers. Unfortunately as GMac was our second top scorer and he's a defender, the premier league didn't have stats on how many shots he'd had.

Arsenal

Sanchez - 19%
Giroud - 31%

Bournemouth

King - 24%
Stanislas - 17%

Burnley

Gray - 19%
Vokes - 18%

Chelsea

Costa - 18%
Hazard - 21%

Crystal Palace

Benteke - 14%
Zaha - 14%

Everton

Lukaku - 23%
Barkley - 6%

Hull

Niasse - 15%
Snodgrass - 14%

Leicester

Vardy - 25%
Slimani - 20%

Liverpool

Coutinho - 12%
Mane - 23%

Man City

Aguero - 14%
Jesus - 78%

Man Utd

Ibrahimovic - 15%
Mata - 15%

Middlesborough

Negredo - 13%
Stuani - 19%

Southampton

Austin - 16%
Redmond - 9%

Stoke

Arnautovic - 10%
Peter Crouch - 19%

Sunderland

Defoe - 15%
Anichebe - 10%

Swansea

Llorente - 29%
Sigurdsson - 8%

Tottenham

Kane - 26%
Ali - 19%

Watford

Deeney - 24%
Capoue - 14%

West Brom

Rondon - 9%

West Ham

Antonio - 13%
Lanzini - 12%

Average across the above - 20%

Average without Jesus (who is a bit of an anomaly) - 18%

The average top two forwards in every team therefore have a shot conversion rate of between 18% and 20%, around 1 in 5.

Rondon's last season's conversion rate was 8.5%, less than 1 in 10 chances converted. The only two forwards with lower rates in the list were Sigurdsson and Barkley, who aren't exactly strikers.

This is the issue that some fans have with Rondon. Fair enough we don't score many in a Pulis set up, but he's also not putting away anywhere near enough chances that he does get. It also shows that other team's strikers are around twice as likely to put away a chance than Rondon, and that is across each team.

Which is why I post stats a lot. These ones are pretty telling, and they can be equally compared across the different players. For me, he doesn't score enough goals and doesn't put enough of the chances that he does get away. I could forgive him if he was holding the ball up well each week and finding a team-mate more often than not, but last season he simply didn't. We desperately need to improve this next season.

[Hull Baggie]

A quote that could be attributed to every centre forward in the history of the game.


No one has a better than 50 percent conversion rate.

Well yes but some forwards miss less chances than Rondon. I wouldn't expect him to have a 50% conversion rate and I've never said that he should have a 50% conversion rate , a few posts ago I said I'd be happy if 50% of his misses were saves by the goalkeeper.

[TheJacko2000]

Well yes but some forwards miss less chances than Rondon. I wouldn't expect him to have a 50% conversion rate and I've never said that he should have a 50% conversion rate , a few posts ago I said I'd be happy if 50% of his misses were saves by the goalkeeper.

You said misses more often than not... ie  the oppisite of your statement is better than 50 percent.

[Hull Baggie]

A very good post and I agree with a lot of what you say, our style doesn't particularly suit him and he is often isolated. However:
My main gripes with Rondon aren't just that he doesn't score many goals it's that when he does get chances they are rarely on target, I wouldn't mind him missing if he made the keeper make a save around 50% of the time but he usually balloons them wide or over the bar.
 For someone with his build he is incredibly easy to knock off the ball and has resorted now to going down under minimum contact from defenders looking for cheap freekicks he doesn't get . He doesn't often hold the ball up.
He scored 1 goal for every 11.7 chances he got, he didn't score for 16 games; that isn't all down to Pulis and the way we play.

For me Rondon is at least as much to blame as Pulis.

There you go Jacko.