[Hull Baggie]

Hull Baggie says " I like him and wouldn't want him replaced, I just want him to be better"

That statement contains the crux of the problem. Rondon is a likeable character, so some people won't tolerate any criticism of him even though they can see his shortcomings.  I can't see him getting better, at his age he is what he is, he's not going to be transformed into a striker that scores  a lot more  or improves radically at all the rest of the things that he needs to be better at. That being the case it is illogical not to want a replacement. If we are to sign a striker in the summer I hope it is a number 1, not a back-up.

For me he doesn't have to score a lot more or radically improve, just score more and improve on the other things which are surely within his abilities. That's why I don't think we need to replace him.
We do need another striker or two in the summer, one to rival Rondon for a starting place but with a different style of play and one as a back up along with Robson-Kanu.

[TheBrom]

yes every player needs to improve but by how much? Matt phillips for example doesn't need to improve that much, perhaps more consistency with his crosses/dead ball delivery (if i'm being picky).

For me Rondon needs to improve on holding the ball up, winning his duels with opposition defenders (one will lead to the other), shooting on target and goal scoring (again the one will lead to the other). I'd add staying on his feet as I think sometimes he goes down far too easily for someone of his size, but I do accept that he is fouled on a fairly regular basis (usually without the ref giving the foul) and that is obviously frustrating for him.

I like him and wouldn't want him replaced, I just want him to be better. I want to think that when he is bearing down on goal the ball will end up in the net rather than behind it.

I'm not expecting another 8-10 goals a season more like 5 or 6.

This. And this is exactly what a lot of others around me at games have said too, so I know I'm not the only one seeing it.

As I said earlier I'm not denying that he's been a good part of what we've done so far, but the three areas I mentioned above have to be improved.

- Finishing - I can't say I'm confident whenever he's bearing down on goal that he'll score. He also doesn't seem to want to take penalties either, so could be that he isn't confident himself with finishing. Either way, working on this in training and over the summer is a must for me.
- Strength and aerial battles - I agree that he is often marked heavily and fouled, but surely he must practice this day in day out. As we've alluded to it's a massive part of his and our game, all too often the battle is lost and the ball comes straight back, usually with either Rondon on the floor, or walking back slowly out of the game. I appreciate it must be frustrating for him, but we often win the ball back and Rondon is offside still. Someone quoted Costa's aerial stats. Bit of a sily comparison as he also puts the ball in the net regularly to make up for this.
- First touch - again vital to his and our game. Again I appreciate that the balls into him aren't always perfect, but we surely must practice this every day in training with him? He must know that the ball is likely to find him after being cleared by us, and that it his first touch is very important in determining what happens next. The last few games in particular everything has seemed to bounce off Rondon.


Like I said, I've got nothing against the guy, I don't envy his job, but working on a couple of the areas I've mentioned and he would be a much more complete player for me. Everyone may not agree with the stats, but they are there, and they are what they are for a reason. A bit more work in those areas and we'll soon see them increase.

[Adder]

What Pulis has said this morning is very relevant to the debate above. Has said his movement pulls players around, opens teams up and to ask other players who creates the chances and they'll say him. He also said the stats won't reflect how much he contributes. I'm paraphrasing but i thought it'd be interesting to add to the debate.

Absolutely - that's why we don't need to back Rondon up with stats because there are many facets of the game that can't be calculated. Ask Shawcross if he enjoyed his afternoon against us the other week, and was it one of his easier afternoons ? Ask the Leicester CBs the same question. Think I know the answer and it will be down to Rondon.

[TheBrom]

Absolutely - that's why we don't need to back Rondon up with stats because there are many facets of the game that can't be calculated. Ask Shawcross if he enjoyed his afternoon against us the other week, and was it one of his easier afternoons ? Ask the Leicester CBs the same question. Think I know the answer and it will be down to Rondon.

I'm sorry but I see that as declining to look at the stats because they're negative. I bet if he'd have scored 17 goals and I started saying he wasn't winning enough headers or passing well enough, I'd have his goal stat thrown at me..

I fully appreciate that there may be more to his game that we can't calculate (that's the question I've been asking to everyone, to tell me what these were), but ignoring stats such as his aerial dual rate, goal and passing stats because they are poor is silly.

Also, would you be able to tell me why these centre backs wouldn't have enjoyed their time against him. Obviously the stats I posted show the opposite, so would genuinely be interested to see what non-measurable things helped his performance against them

[SmethDan]

Bloody hell Brom, you must have an awful lot of spare time in (Ed:) on your hands    .

Just been looking through some of those stats and links on Rondon. I state some because, interesting though I'm sure the rest of them must have been, I really don't have it in me to look through them all.

And when you think about it you've come around to state that you like him but he needs to improve certain aspects of his game. Something which has been acknowledged on a variety of occasions even by his supporters.

Cheers all the same though,  .

Must be an absolute blast listening to you and those around you whinge about his shortcomings at games    .

[wba13]

Glad I don`t sit by him with all around him blasting out stats they can`t see much of the match

[Jordie1471]

The stats are only really significant if compared to HRK rather than other premiership strikers as every team has a different squad and tactical set up

But HRK hasn't played anywhere near enough football for us to build up any kind of worthwhile sample size.

If and when HRK plays 50 games for us and has a better pass completion % and arial duel won/loss etc statistics than Rondon then fair enough.

Until that happens i'm not prepared to read too much into it one way or the other.

[tommcneill]

yes every player needs to improve but by how much? Matt phillips for example doesn't need to improve that much, perhaps more consistency with his crosses/dead ball delivery (if i'm being picky).

For me Rondon needs to improve on holding the ball up, winning his duels with opposition defenders (one will lead to the other), shooting on target and goal scoring (again the one will lead to the other). I'd add staying on his feet as I think sometimes he goes down far too easily for someone of his size, but I do accept that he is fouled on a fairly regular basis (usually without the ref giving the foul) and that is obviously frustrating for him.

I like him and wouldn't want him replaced, I just want him to be better. I want to think that when he is bearing down on goal the ball will end up in the net rather than behind it.

I'm not expecting another 8-10 goals a season more like 5 or 6.

I think players like Matt Phillips would think they need to improve constantly. Even Messi and Ronaldo need to improve and they do constantly.

I agree that I would like more goals from Rondon, its what all strikers are judged on in the end but his general all round play is as good as anyone else for me

[baggieboyfred]

S R is what he is, works hard most of the game, touch not always the best, and he appears to find netting very difficult , as I might add do a number of other premiership strikers, especially some of our transfer targets,
But the bottom line is the team are sitting in eighth place with every prospect of finishing with a record premiership points total for us, so yes he could certainly do with improving his first touch and definitely increase his goals scored column, but until we can discover or get the likes of a Costa, Aguerro  Kane etc  to come and play for us then I for one will say well done Mr Rondom if you as  the lone striker playing for a team in 8th place then you must be doing something right and certainly making a valid contribution to the team

[Adder]

I'm sorry but I see that as declining to look at the stats because they're negative. I bet if he'd have scored 17 goals and I started saying he wasn't winning enough headers or passing well enough, I'd have his goal stat thrown at me..

I fully appreciate that there may be more to his game that we can't calculate (that's the question I've been asking to everyone, to tell me what these were), but ignoring stats such as his aerial dual rate, goal and passing stats because they are poor is silly.

Also, would you be able to tell me why these centre backs wouldn't have enjoyed their time against him. Obviously the stats I posted show the opposite, so would genuinely be interested to see what non-measurable things helped his performance against them

I'm not avoiding the stats, I said at an early stage that they don't give an accurate picture of just how much Rondon does for us. What does he do that can't be measured ?
He makes runs to pull defenders around and makes space for others.
He provides an outball for any midfielders or defenders who can't see anyone else looking for the ball (because he does)
He's a workhorse (and there's nothing wrong with that - it works for our team). Compare how much he does in the game compared to similar players....Slimani, Benteke,Crouch.

[Albionic]

Oh God. 


2nd touch is a tackle.  - Has a great work ethic, works hard to win the ball back
Cannot hold up the ball. - was said of bully (the dingle tatter tw@t), the ball was often in the back of the net
Doesn't bring others into play.  No, because he starts isolated 30 yards away and the gap widens because he is so quick.
Poor finisher. Meh, your opinion
Poor passer.  ditto meh!
Cheat.  ttell me the name of another premier league player who isnt
Over 1 in 4 record despite a Championship season boosting stats. see rondon argument discussion strikers do more than score

You clearly have an agenda, you either "love em" - viz Brunty, or "hate em", Suggest you start following the middle path a little

[TheBrom]

I'm not avoiding the stats, I said at an early stage that they don't give an accurate picture of just how much Rondon does for us. What does he do that can't be measured ?
He makes runs to pull defenders around and makes space for others.
He provides an outball for any midfielders or defenders who can't see anyone else looking for the ball (because he does)
He's a workhorse (and there's nothing wrong with that - it works for our team). Compare how much he does in the game compared to similar players....Slimani, Benteke,Crouch.

Thanks for explaining those additional attributes. I was genuinely interested as no one else had given me any, hence thew reliance on the stats that I found. My stats may not give a complete picture, but they are accurate, and as I stated they are what they are for a reason.

[TheBrom]

You clearly have an agenda, you either "love em" - viz Brunty, or "hate em", Suggest you start following the middle path a little

Thought that post you quoted was about Rondon to be honest!

[Albionic]

Thought that post you quoted was about Rondon to be honest!

I'm on a bit of a wind up mission (don't tell jacko)

[TheBrom]

I'm on a bit of a wind up mission (don't tell jacko)

Haha. It's funny, all of those negatives that were posted about Long, I feel Rondon needs to improve on.

[VVVAlbion]

The difficulty with stats when comparing players is that they don't consider that it is essentially a team game. Rondon's statistics are based on the service that he receives from the players who are around him and as those players are different to those who played with Long or play with Costa then true comparisons can not be made. The quality of ball played to Costa is likely to be better and therefore he should win more ball. The question when comparing Costa to Rondon, which can only really be a matter of opinion, is would Rondon win more or less than Costa with the same players providing the delivery?
From what I have seen, my opinion is, Rondon is as good a fit into the Pulis style of play that we can realistically get at this time. His game could be improved but so could most people's.

[timdon]

The difficulty with stats when comparing players is that they don't consider that it is essentially a team game. Rondon's statistics are based on the service that he receives from the players who are around him and as those players are different to those who played with Long or play with Costa then true comparisons can not be made. The quality of ball played to Costa is likely to be better and therefore he should win more ball. The question when comparing Costa to Rondon, which can only really be a matter of opinion, is would Rondon win more or less than Costa with the same players providing the delivery?
From what I have seen, my opinion is, Rondon is as good a fit into the Pulis style of play that we can realistically get at this time. His game could be improved but so could most people's.

Absolutely. When you compare our team stats, possession, passes completed, successful dribbles etc, no way should we be 8th. There are numerous posts on here trying to explain all the good work that Rondon does for the team if  people (Brom in particular) would bother to read them. Match results often defy stats, and so do performances. The opposite side of the aargument is to ask who might realistically be better for us than Rondon, and this is usually met with silence from his critics. The only suggestions I have seen are Shane Long and Chris Wood, and no way should either of these even be mentioned in the same breath as Rondon.

[wba_1996]

So what we've agreed on is that Rondon is good but could be better? Surely that goes for every good player we have and ever will have until we've got the full FIFPro XI?

Yet to see a single suggestion of a striker we could sign who would do better than Rondon, someone throw out some names because I'm genuinely interested.

[TheBrom]

Absolutely. When you compare our team stats, possession, passes completed, successful dribbles etc, no way should we be 8th. There are numerous posts on here trying to explain all the good work that Rondon does for the team if  people (Brom in particular) would bother to read them. Match results often defy stats, and so do performances. The opposite side of the aargument is to ask who might realistically be better for us than Rondon, and this is usually met with silence from his critics. The only suggestions I have seen are Shane Long and Chris Wood, and no way should either of these even be mentioned in the same breath as Rondon.

I'm not the only person who thinks he needs to improve.. Not sure what everyone suddenly has against stats. Was just giving an opinion.. Like I said he's done a good job but needs to improve in certain areas.

[Standaman]

I'm not the only person who thinks he needs to improve.. Not sure what everyone suddenly has against stats. Was just giving an opinion.. Like I said he's done a good job but needs to improve in certain areas.

Yes he could be better but the one thing he won't do is improve this season and next is probably peak Rondon In general football people don't like stats particularly ones that challenge their view of the game and as soon there is an outlier they point to it as proof that all stats are bunkum. When actually they often point to trends and underlying issues which are masked by variance.

 

[SmethDan]

I'm not the only person who thinks he needs to improve.. Not sure what everyone suddenly has against stats. Was just giving an opinion.. Like I said he's done a good job but needs to improve in certain areas.

Hiya.

I don't have a problem with stats.
Can't really argue with numbers/figures on a page per say.

However, interpretations of said numbers/figures can be ambiguous, as exampled by a variety of posters on this thread. As Standaman suggests, such ambiguity is largely the result of variance beyond the numbers themselves.

Examples highlighted could include:
1. Movement off the ball
2. Number of players in support
3. Quality of ball
4. Team tactics and set up (how many opposition players is Rondon up against as opposed to the number of defenders faced by other forwards and supporting players)
5. Decisions (or otherwise) made by officials
6. Even the bloody weather can affect a players ability to judge and control a ball
7. There are many more variables, one of which you would (maybe/probably) suggest being player technique

Statistics are a useful tool.
But when relied upon in isolation they are meaningless.
An example of this would be last night's game between Blues and Leeds.
Blues had by far and away the most opportunities with 27-10, yet both sides had the same amount on target.
Unfortunately for Blues the chances afforded to the Leeds players were of a higher quality and converted in greater frequency.

I genuinely understand, appreciate and agree with many of the points you make as do others.
Equally I understand that reliance on quantitative analysis is of little use in isolation when there are so many variables.

What I don't understand is how you can suggest others have paid little/no attention to Rondon's stats based potential weaknesses, they are highlighted in this 70 odd page thread. As I suggested yesterday, you appear to have embarked on a statistical crusade which actually proves very little beyond your thirst for number crunching.

We know he has weaknesses to his game yet we are perhaps more appreciative of his efforts than are you. By stating this I am not suggesting it's your intention to deride or undermine Rondon. I know that you would be as delighted as I were he to control every ball which comes his way and convert every chance; but it's never going to happen.

Chap, relax.
By acknowledging his weaknesses and embracing his strengths you offer a balanced view.
By paying so much attention to numbers does him and yourself a disservice.

All of the best and I hope you enjoy today's game.
COYB  .

[timdon]

Don't see how anyone could argue with this, Dan. Excellent, well balanced post.

[Droitwich Baggie]

He was on his own again today.
No support from the midfield...Just the occasional hoofball.

[SirTonyPulis]

He was on his own again today.
No support from the midfield...Just the occasional hoofball.

HRK was a lot more involved in the game when he came on and has always showed better movement than Rondon. Cant blame it all on the teammates.

[KnaveofAlbion]

He was on his own again today.
No support from the midfield...Just the occasional hoofball.

We were totally rubbish today, a harking back to the days of "a draw will do". 1 shot on target and poor Rondon made to fight an entire defense on his own.

Man i hope that wasn't it for our season. I'm genuinely surprised and disappointed in the team.

Rondon is still a very high quality player for us.