Author Topic: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion  (Read 7159 times)

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beechyboy90

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Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« on: December 29, 2020, 09:33:04 PM »
I am as good as resigned to us being in championship next season. 10 players out of contract summer. 2 loans returning. Johnstone and periera will probably receive offers. And oshea and ajayi may also have their suitors they dont have huge contracts so the club might be listening. So that's 16 players that could leave...

I expect us to offer deals to Townsend bartley HRK Edwards for championship. I expect grosicki Austin gibbs to go (unless gibbs takes a paycut) I would think we would let bond go also and peltier but then I cant believe we signed them again last summer.

We get to finish the rebuild we started last summer. Adding some youth and up and coming talent cant harm us. However the rebuild wrong and the wrong manager (cant see big sam staying should we drop) and we are starting st the abyss
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2020, 09:47:27 PM »
The scary thing about all this is only two years ago we were in a very similar position. We haven't learnt one thing from that relegation.

The next couple of seasons were built on reconnecting the fans with the manager and players once again.
Despite no fans allowed in, it appears that a lot of fans don't care and have lost interest in he team and manager once again.

Austin , Kanu, Bartley, Livermore , Sawyers , Gibbs all need to be moved on. Injury prone, bang average and are just too slow

Likley hood is we'll be looking for another manager too

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2020, 10:14:50 PM »
I am very worried at the prospect of us going down now. Highly likely we were going down under Bilic, but I don't think it was ever going to be any different with the current squad. I do believe that with him still in charge that the core of this squad would have stayed together, the players would have been a happy unit, and we would have come back up next season. Most of all, the fans would have stayed connected.

Problem is I cannot see Allardyce keeping us up either, the difference being he is going to alienate fans and dismantle the squad which will leave us in a far, far worse situation.

I genuinely, sincerely hope to be proved wrong...

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2020, 10:39:30 PM »
the choices were,
a) Bilic and squad relegated (80%), bilic walks, get a manager in to unload the dross and bring some more young talent in, or bilic stays (I know, unlikely) and we try to do a Norwich.
b) Bring in a recognised survivalist (100%) whose record is based on significant spending which we cannot afford, dismantle the squad and if the survivalist fails he can walk away, leaving the club with his legacy.

I would argue, the clubs hierarchy have bottled it and gone for the second option,

It could be argued that they have been brave and gambled the ranch on the second option,

At the moment the odds on option 2 are lengthening with little indication of improvement, I hope I am wrong about the long term consequences of this gamble.
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beechyboy90

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2020, 11:27:54 PM »
If paul cook available summer hes my choice he deals with basket case clubs like us.
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 11:52:44 PM »
If paul cook available summer hes my choice he deals with basket case clubs like us.

We aren’t a “basket case club”.  We simply aren’t good enough for the Premier League without major funding. 

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2020, 11:59:35 PM »
We aren’t a “basket case club”.  We simply aren’t good enough for the Premier League without major funding.

The logical way forward was to allow a progressive manager like Bilic time to keep improving the squad until we could compete in the premiership. Now we are reduced to starting from scratch again.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2020, 12:01:11 AM »
We aren’t a “basket case club”.  We simply aren’t good enough for the Premier League without major funding.
To be fair this is exactly the point. The table nearly always reflects the quality of the squad. We have the lowest valued squad and so by rights Should expect to finish bottom of the league. As we are above Sheffield you could argue that we are over-achieving! All we can expect is that the players give it their all. I think Allardyce is right though to question the players dedication. They seem to be slower and less fit than the opposition in most games. I can accept relegation but want to see effort and determination. At Premier League level we are punching well above our weight but we should at least see the players giving it a go. Gallagher and possibly Johnson apart none of them may ever get this chance again.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 12:22:53 AM »
The logical way forward was to allow a progressive manager like Bilic time to keep improving the squad until we could compete in the premiership. Now we are reduced to starting from scratch again.

Indeed that is the truth - at some point in the future we are going to need to make a commitment to someone progressive for the long term, and not make knee-jerk decisions in alignment with unrealistic expectations. This squad was not good enough to be anything other than serious relegation candidates, but it was good enough from which to build a strong foundation towards a long-term plan.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 01:41:55 PM »
at some point in the future we are going to need to make a commitment to someone progressive for the long term
Sadly I don't see that ever happening at our club, just because it hasn't been the case for as long as I've followed Albion (since the 60s).
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 02:02:09 PM »
If you keep chopping and changing managers then nothing will change.

When we went down last time we had a chance to reboot, we got a new manager in Darren Moore, said go and build a new team whilst trying to get rid of players from the Pulis management, change the style, etc. Six months into the season, 4th from top, he got sacked. Of course it wasnt perfect but nothing is, you have to go through bad times to learn, we didnt, we sacked him.

We then wasted the rest of the season, then got Bilic in, again, a new start, build a team whilst getting rid of players from the Moore era, try new style, etc this time we went better than the year before and got promoted, three months into the new season, he is sacked.

So we now have another new manager half way through the season, he will want to get rid of players from the Bilic era, try a new style, assuming we go down, we will have another new manager who will want to get rid of players, try a new style, etc, etc and the wheel goes round and round and round each time making the squad look unbalance because the person coming in doesnt want those type of players.

I think since Sir Gary Megson got the job less than 20 years ago, Big Sam is now our 13th permanent manager, that is embarrassing in itself, we have become a nothing team, our sole aim is finish 17th in the premier league, other clubs are similar but at least they have won something, or got to a cup final, europe etc, aside from a semi final under Mowbray we have done nothing, we just exist.

But when a managers reign is less than 18 months on average, they arent going to target cups or have a long term vision, there job is the now only, where really a good club should have managers who play for the now and the future, thats usually how the most successful teams work, you accept there will be bad patches and you stay strong, we dont, we just keep sacking and changing and expect something to change.

It doesnt put faith in a manager when you give them 12, 18 or 24 month contracts, we should identify somebody who has ambition and wants to build something, give them a long contract and let them do and stick with them through thick and think (unless its farcial, ie - bottom of the championship and embarrasing, farcial is not being 4th in a league or getting you promoted a year earlier than planned) as fans we have to accept that if this type of planning / project does start, there will be rough times but in the long run, it could mean we become a forward thinking club again.

We know we arent huge spenders and so it might take us longer but have a plan and stick to it, Unfortunately whilst we are owned by investors that is a long way off, our sole aim is to be 17th in the premier league every year and we will do whatever to make that happen.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 02:05:43 PM by Albion79 »

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 02:18:35 PM »
The logical way forward was to allow a progressive manager like Bilic time to keep improving the squad until we could compete in the premiership. Now we are reduced to starting from scratch again.
And this is why Allardyce was a dumb appointment. If not Bilic then somebody of that ilk who could at least work with the current lot .
A progressive coach / manager that we could stick with even after relegation. We have to have a plan that doesn’t get tossed every 12 months . Bilic was asked to get promoted in 2 seasons which he succeeded in doing yet 3 months later that plan is chucked in the bin
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baggiejohn

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2020, 03:16:10 PM »

Unfortunately whilst we are owned by investors that is a long way off, our sole aim is to be 17th in the premier league every year and we will do whatever to make that happen.


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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 03:23:08 PM »
And this is why Allardyce was a dumb appointment. If not Bilic then somebody of that ilk who could at least work with the current lot .
A progressive coach / manager that we could stick with even after relegation. We have to have a plan that doesn’t get tossed every 12 months . Bilic was asked to get promoted in 2 seasons which he succeeded in doing yet 3 months later that plan is chucked in the bin

Totally agree. There aren’t many walks of life whereby you are given a target, in this case promotion within 2 years, you beat it and then are dismissed without being given the tools to move things forward. It is hard to defend the recent results of Slaven but, as you rightly say, there are other longer term options that would have laid a blueprint for the future. Instead, well you know the rest.....

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 03:29:43 PM »
Thing is if you persevere and appoint someone else in the Bilic mould the problem persists. The squad is completely unbalanced. I'd suggest we need a manager somewhere in the middle longer term. Nowadays though most managers seem to be one or the other.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2020, 05:23:06 PM »
If only our owners and board didn't keep painting us into corners we simply wouldn't be in this place.
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2020, 05:49:43 PM »
And this is why Allardyce was a dumb appointment. If not Bilic then somebody of that ilk who could at least work with the current lot .
A progressive coach / manager that we could stick with even after relegation. We have to have a plan that doesn’t get tossed every 12 months . Bilic was asked to get promoted in 2 seasons which he succeeded in doing yet 3 months later that plan is chucked in the bin

Its not though is it? It is apparent that to recoup some of his money Lai needs the club in the premiership. He was not willing to back Bilic given his results since late last year [ which were not impressive], so he has gone for the nuclear option to save his investment.
Not a popular choice but yet another example of a chairman looking after himself and having absolutely no regard for the club or fans.. When was the last time we had a chairman with dignity?
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2020, 05:52:19 PM »
We aren’t a “basket case club”.  We simply aren’t good enough for the Premier League without major funding.

We aren't as far off as you make out.

The owner or owners aren't interested, and are actively looking to sell the club.

The 'technical director' has a hit and miss transfer record, and I keep seeing comments on Twitter about how he is dismantling the academy.

The manager has only just walked in the door, but we're getting thumped in every home game. The squad is the result of several divergent ideas on how it should be built, as the club has veered from dinosaur to progressive coach and back again.

The players aren't good enough, and as the owners want to leave (and can't invest), there aren't enough funds to replace them with better players without selling off the better players we do have.

This team is probably going to be relegated by April, and teams that struggle that much tend to struggle after relegation, especially with a new manager and a squad overhaul.

The fans aren't able to come in due to Covid, and who knows how many will be back when we can go. This season is killing interest for a lot of people. On top of that, we have an aging fanbase, with not many left in West Brom who feel the same connection to the team or area.

The fact is we are teetering on the edge of basket case, with a slide into long-term irrelevance (see Birmingham City, Blackburn Rovers) looking like our final destination.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2020, 06:00:24 PM »
The clubs an absolute state and has been since Lai walked in and switched off.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2020, 06:05:49 PM »
The clubs an absolute state and has been since Lai walked in and switched off.

Exactly that.
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2020, 07:03:45 PM »
If you keep chopping and changing managers then nothing will change.

When we went down last time we had a chance to reboot, we got a new manager in Darren Moore, said go and build a new team whilst trying to get rid of players from the Pulis management, change the style, etc. Six months into the season, 4th from top, he got sacked. Of course it wasnt perfect but nothing is, you have to go through bad times to learn, we didnt, we sacked him.

We then wasted the rest of the season, then got Bilic in, again, a new start, build a team whilst getting rid of players from the Moore era, try new style, etc this time we went better than the year before and got promoted, three months into the new season, he is sacked.

So we now have another new manager half way through the season, he will want to get rid of players from the Bilic era, try a new style, assuming we go down, we will have another new manager who will want to get rid of players, try a new style, etc, etc and the wheel goes round and round and round each time making the squad look unbalance because the person coming in doesnt want those type of players.

I think since Sir Gary Megson got the job less than 20 years ago, Big Sam is now our 13th permanent manager, that is embarrassing in itself, we have become a nothing team, our sole aim is finish 17th in the premier league, other clubs are similar but at least they have won something, or got to a cup final, europe etc, aside from a semi final under Mowbray we have done nothing, we just exist.

But when a managers reign is less than 18 months on average, they arent going to target cups or have a long term vision, there job is the now only, where really a good club should have managers who play for the now and the future, thats usually how the most successful teams work, you accept there will be bad patches and you stay strong, we dont, we just keep sacking and changing and expect something to change.

It doesnt put faith in a manager when you give them 12, 18 or 24 month contracts, we should identify somebody who has ambition and wants to build something, give them a long contract and let them do and stick with them through thick and think (unless its farcial, ie - bottom of the championship and embarrasing, farcial is not being 4th in a league or getting you promoted a year earlier than planned) as fans we have to accept that if this type of planning / project does start, there will be rough times but in the long run, it could mean we become a forward thinking club again.

We know we arent huge spenders and so it might take us longer but have a plan and stick to it, Unfortunately whilst we are owned by investors that is a long way off, our sole aim is to be 17th in the premier league every year and we will do whatever to make that happen.
Very accurate assessment of our weakness as a club, even if it's somewhat depressing. A lot of fans find it difficult to look long term as well. You are spot on about the fact that difficult times will come along with every single manager bar none. If we don't stick with one over 3 years minimum, we will never progress in any meaninful way.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2020, 07:22:14 PM »
Very accurate assessment of our weakness as a club, even if it's somewhat depressing. A lot of fans find it difficult to look long term as well. You are spot on about the fact that difficult times will come along with every single manager bar none. If we don't stick with one over 3 years minimum, we will never progress in any meaninful way.

On the back of automatic promotion at the first attempt from an ultra competitive league (as we will find out next season) Bilic was given 3 months, let alone 3 years; and a fare few of the fans on here haven't got the patience to stick with a manager for more than a handful of games. We are getting what we richly deserve at the moment.

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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2020, 07:56:07 PM »
I'd like to see us start the Championship with new owners who want to rejuvenate our club and put a forward thinking manager in place, and give him the money to compete.
Oh and see what Dan Ashworth's doing!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 07:57:53 PM by tuamigos »
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 08:14:11 PM »
Very accurate assessment of our weakness as a club, even if it's somewhat depressing. A lot of fans find it difficult to look long term as well. You are spot on about the fact that difficult times will come along with every single manager bar none. If we don't stick with one over 3 years minimum, we will never progress in any meaninful way.

See I kind of disagree with this. For me, in a perfect set up, the head coach could be replaced every 12 months if absolutely necessary. You ideally wouldn't want it, but it could happen. The reason I say this is you would have an effective leadership team above them, that takes most of the non-matchday and training pitch tasks out of the hands of the head coach.

The Director of Football (or Directors, seeing as it's quite an undertaking) looks after the medium term, such bringing in coaches who play a pre-determined style of football, ensuring there is a strategy for all players regarding transfers, and supporting other off-pitch activities such as player support and wellbeing. Working with the player recruitment department, they can give perspective on areas of the pitch that are lacking and need immediate attention, and give advanced notice of potential problem areas that might crop up in the future.

Finally you have an Owner/Chief Executive/Chairman who supports the layers below them, giving them the tools and confidence to operate while still having a firm vision for where the club is heading over three to five years. This includes contingency planning based on performance, but also in terms of staff recruitment - what happens if the Director(s) of Football leave? We never recovered from Ashworth leaving, in no small part because we never successfully appointed an able replacement.

In general, handing managers long contracts doesn't work - Moyes at Utd, Pardew at Newcastle. There needs to be recognition that the entire system is more important than the shiniest cog, and sometimes those cogs can be replaced or upgraded if needed.
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Re: Championship squad rebuild rebirth or fade to oblivion
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2020, 08:32:50 PM »
See I kind of disagree with this. For me, in a perfect set up, the head coach could be replaced every 12 months if absolutely necessary. You ideally wouldn't want it, but it could happen. The reason I say this is you would have an effective leadership team above them, that takes most of the non-matchday and training pitch tasks out of the hands of the head coach.

The Director of Football (or Directors, seeing as it's quite an undertaking) looks after the medium term, such bringing in coaches who play a pre-determined style of football, ensuring there is a strategy for all players regarding transfers, and supporting other off-pitch activities such as player support and wellbeing. Working with the player recruitment department, they can give perspective on areas of the pitch that are lacking and need immediate attention, and give advanced notice of potential problem areas that might crop up in the future.

Finally you have an Owner/Chief Executive/Chairman who supports the layers below them, giving them the tools and confidence to operate while still having a firm vision for where the club is heading over three to five years. This includes contingency planning based on performance, but also in terms of staff recruitment - what happens if the Director(s) of Football leave? We never recovered from Ashworth leaving, in no small part because we never successfully appointed an able replacement.

In general, handing managers long contracts doesn't work - Moyes at Utd, Pardew at Newcastle. There needs to be recognition that the entire system is more important than the shiniest cog, and sometimes those cogs can be replaced or upgraded if needed.

So Brentford then?  ;D
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