Author Topic: Issiah Brown  (Read 8677 times)

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KYA

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Issiah Brown
« on: January 25, 2013, 09:34:05 AM »
A report in the B'ham Mail that Arsenal are sniffing around Issiah Brown and will make an offer when he turns 17.
Clubs should have some protection against these sort of approaches

.http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/arsene-wenger-wants-talented-west-1241263?


« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 09:45:48 AM by standaman »

royhan

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Re: Kin Arsenal
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 09:38:12 AM »
I've got a feeling that there is a sell on clause in this type of deal. I could be wrong, however.

leeiswba

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 10:12:15 AM »
This is not critisism of the club at all, but if this is what is going to keep happening whenever we get someone with extreme talent; being poached by a big club is there any point of the system and spending a lot on the academy?

lewisant

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 10:20:06 AM »
Was it sterling that went to Liverpool?
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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 10:36:58 AM »
Was it sterling that went to Liverpool?

They got Sterling from QPR.

It was Jerome Sinclair they poached from us, I think he became their youngest ever player when he came on against us in the cup.

HampshireBaggie

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 10:39:45 AM »
We need to learn to keep hold of these types of players, they are going to be playing 1st team football quicker at Albion then at Liverpool. The ones we do keep hold of (Mantom, Wood, Downing, Berahino etc) all dont make the grade except one (Thorne).

I really hope Berahino and Donervon Daniels can make the step up we need at least some fruition.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 11:25:50 AM »
Garlick said in the resent interview that Albion aim to be a solid top half club in the future. Moreover, the aim of the academy is to produce 1-3 youngsters each season capable of getting into said top half team. This will simply not happen if they are poached by Arsenal, Liverpool, City (who were sniffing after Donovan Daniels a year ago or so) etc. 

The top end talent either stays with us, or the Academy fails it's mission and the club fails in it's strategy.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 12:00:15 PM »
There's no point spending millions on the tuition of academy players if we don't have the means or the ambition to keep them.

Dan

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 12:02:43 PM »
I really question the wisdom of a club like ours having an academy to be honest. We're putting at least 3m every single season into the academy, how much have we got in return these past 9 years? We can't offer these players anything. Arsenal would have better facilities, playing with better players, and bizarrely better playing opportunities - we are appalling at attempting to bring through academy players. Thorne in his natural position is not played ahead of Brunt who will never be a deep lying central midfielder, Wood despite being one of the leading lights in the championship wasn't given a chance to prove himself. It's far from someone like Southampton who can point to a proven track record of putting faith in academy players.

If someone is looking like having the potential to be a top player they get poached for a minimal fee that doesn't cover anything like the academy costs. So far in our short existence as an academy Hurst was poached, Sinclair was poached, and now it seems like Brown will also be poached. Basically anyone who looks like they might actually have potential to become first team.

For the sake of 3m a year we'd be better off buying a 1.5-2m player a year and probably see a greater return on investment from it based, maybe invest further in the scouting system. 3m a year doesn't sound a lot but it soon totals up, particularly given how little our transfer budget tends to be.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:09:52 PM by Dan »

GrGr

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 12:12:06 PM »
I thought one of the main ideas of the new u21 system was to keep the talent within the producing clubs and make it much harder for the top, rich, clubs to poach talent.

Or will the rich clubs be allowed to warp the market down to the teenage level and give promising kids enormous bids, that the parent clubs then will have to match feeding the ever increasing salary costs throughout the game?

In Germany clubs can produce their own talent and bring them into the first team. Here the 'big' clubs are just waiting to pounce and poach as soon as that looks about to happen.

Standaman

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 12:53:25 PM »
I really question the wisdom of a club like ours having an academy to be honest. We're putting at least 3m every single season into the academy, how much have we got in return these past 9 years? We can't offer these players anything. Arsenal would have better facilities, playing with better players, and bizarrely better opportunities - we are appalling at attempting to bring through academy players. Thorne in his natural position is not played ahead of Brunt who will never be a deep lying central midfielder, Wood despite being one of the leading lights in the championship wasn't given a chance to prove himself. It's far from someone like Southampton who can point to a proven track record of putting faith in academy players.

If someone is looking like having the potential to be a top player they get poached for a minimal fee that doesn't cover anything like the academy costs. So far in our short existence as an academy Hurst was poached, Sinclair was poached, and now it seems like Brown will also be poached. Basically anyone who looks like they might actually have potential to become first team.

For the sake of 3m a year we'd be better off buying a 1.5-2m player a year and probably see a greater return on investment from it based, maybe invest further in the scouting system. 3m a year doesn't sound a lot but it soon totals up, particularly given how little our transfer budget tends to be.

I agree with some of your points but disagree with your conclusion. Firstly a lot of the money that has been invested in the academy has been spent on catching up with the better clubs and now the club's facilities are a match for any in the division and  it would seem crazy to stop at the point when that is starting to pay dividends.

 I agree that we have not been brilliant at getting youngsters into the team but over the last 10 years the first team's progress has been such that it has outstripped the academy's ability to produce players. Had we slipped back into the championship over the course of the last couple of seasons the likes of Thorne, Wood, Berahino,Dawson, Allan, Downing, Hurst, and Manton would be in the first team squad.

It is true that we are vulnerable to poaching from bigger clubs up until the player signs professional terms after that point there is no need for us to sell our promising youngsters because unlike Southampton when they sold Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain we are financially sound.

The cost of the academy is one average premier league player and we already have 25 of those if we are to progress we need to supplement the work of the scouting network with a youngsters coming out of the academy. As ever the problem will be the Head Coach being under pressure for instant results will go with the experienced player even out of position rather than backing a youngster. The club of course can force the coaches hand a little by managing the fringe a little bit more ruthlessly and moving on senior pro's who are really only there as back up, Tamas and Jara-Reyes spring to mind however the youngsters have to be good enough and whilst much is expected of Daniel's for instance he probably isn't there just yet 

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Mat15(MH)

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 01:05:08 PM »
Garlick said in the resent interview that Albion aim to be a solid top half club in the future. Moreover, the aim of the academy is to produce 1-3 youngsters each season capable of getting into said top half team. This will simply not happen if they are poached by Arsenal, Liverpool, City (who were sniffing after Donovan Daniels a year ago or so) etc. 

The top end talent either stays with us, or the Academy fails it's mission and the club fails in it's strategy.

Yes but what can the club do to stop this happening?

You can't offer professional terms until the player is 17, at which point or before-hand, clubs can come in for the player. I hardly think the Academy is failing in it's mission as it is clearly producing players who they believe are capable of playing at the highest level, it is more to do with the system in this country that allows these players to be poached from the club's who've brought them through.

At the end of the day, you have the choice of Albion or Arsenal, most are going to choose Arsenal. More money, london living etc.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2013, 01:20:15 PM »
Yes but what can the club do to stop this happening?

You can't offer professional terms until the player is 17, at which point or before-hand, clubs can come in for the player. I hardly think the Academy is failing in it's mission as it is clearly producing players who they believe are capable of playing at the highest level, it is more to do with the system in this country that allows these players to be poached from the club's who've brought them through.

At the end of the day, you have the choice of Albion or Arsenal, most are going to choose Arsenal. More money, london living etc.

True they will choose Arsenal most likely. But I agree with your point, which was one of my points as well, that the system is deeply flawed if this can go on. Clubs in Germany are capable of producing players for their first team who then go on to the national team. In the UK everything is sucked into Arsenal and United and a handful of other clubs, and the game stagnates as a consequence.

My Academy failing comment was with the thinking that it is exactly the Isaiah Brown level talents we need to bring the club forward. Especially if we aim to be a top half club producing talent good enough to compete on that level. I'm sure we can produce 1-3 championship players a year, but top PL players? That simply takes rare talent. If one or two of those a year get snapped up by Arsenal, City etc then we need to find FIVE such players a year to meet the 3 player goal. In effect it makes it impossible for us to ever find a super star level talent, or close enough, and keep him on our books until he makes the first team.


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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
True they will choose Arsenal most likely. But I agree with your point, which was one of my points as well, that the system is deeply flawed if this can go on. Clubs in Germany are capable of producing players for their first team who then go on to the national team. In the UK everything is sucked into Arsenal and United and a handful of other clubs, and the game stagnates as a consequence.

My Academy failing comment was with the thinking that it is exactly the Isaiah Brown level talents we need to bring the club forward. Especially if we aim to be a top half club producing talent good enough to compete on that level. I'm sure we can produce 1-3 championship players a year, but top PL players? That simply takes rare talent. If one or two of those a year get snapped up by Arsenal, City etc then we need to find FIVE such players a year to meet the 3 player goal. In effect it makes it impossible for us to ever find a super star level talent, or close enough, and keep him on our books until he makes the first team.

Right I see.

I think we are probably capable of producing 1 player per year who the club think is capable of playing Premier League football per year, Thorne being the case in point for the first wave of players coming through possibly Berainho. The year below that you have Donervon Daniels who is clearly very highly rated. The year below that we have Izzy Brown, then the year below that we did have that Sinclair lad who Liverpool played a Million for.

Very few clubs produce 3 players a year capable of that, so I am slightly suprised by Garlick's comment. If we wanted to produce 3 per year we'd have to seriously extend our scouting operation for these youth players and bring them from abroad at a young age like the top clubs do. Like you and I said, it's a sad indicement of the game that if we were to produce a superstar, the likelihood is we may never see him in the first team or for one/two seasons maximum like Rooney.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2013, 02:42:54 PM »
You can probably add in Adil Nabi  who seems to score quite often, has been praised by Kevin Keen and made the bench at Reading (albeit at injury crisis time).

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2013, 02:54:12 PM »
Have to do our very best to keep Brown, been hearing very good things about him over the last 6 months, don't want another Sinclair debacle.
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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2013, 03:02:40 PM »
I truly hope Isaiah takes a page out of Lukaku's book and realizes life in London (or a 'big' club) isn't necessarily better for a young up and coming talent. He will be plenty rich down the road anyway if he develops and he should develop as fast, or faster, with us.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2013, 04:03:35 PM »
Clubs are allowed to sign pre contracts for players under the age of 17 but they don't turn into professional contracts until they are 17. It looks like we have done this so at least if he goes we can ask a very good fee for him. Got to be careful with especially quick young players as when they come up against more experienced defenders as they get older they can get found out if they purely rely on pace. Don't forget it could go both ways with young players, he could just as easily be the next Paul Downing!
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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2013, 08:31:30 PM »
As a matter of interest, didn't Liverpool take another of our lads a couple of years before Sinclair?

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2013, 09:08:06 PM »
I thought the idea of becoming a grade A academy was so that this couldnt happen?

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 12:39:01 AM »
i've posted on here my feelings about the academy when we sold wood . ok we will never know how good he would have been for us in the premier , but as all the top scorers in the championship get snapped up by premiership sides i think we've dropped a big one here letting wood go ,could turn out to be another steve bull. if he can't break into the first eleven or at least get a chance what have the other academy players got don't forget he could end up being the top goalscorer in the league which would be a hell of an achievement considering he's had to adapt to playing for different teams throughout the season. which poses the question is the academy all it's cracked up to be . maybe the money spent on it would be better put to signings that would boost the first team rather than nurture youngsters to be either snapped up by the big clubs or sold on for peanuts .




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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2013, 12:45:20 AM »
i've posted on here my feelings about the academy when we sold wood . ok we will never know how good he would have been for us in the premier , but as all the top scorers in the championship get snapped up by premiership sides i think we've dropped a big one here letting wood go ,could turn out to be another steve bull. if he can't break into the first eleven or at least get a chance what have the other academy players got don't forget he could end up being the top goalscorer in the league which would be a hell of an achievement considering he's had to adapt to playing for different teams throughout the season. which poses the question is the academy all it's cracked up to be . maybe the money spent on it would be better put to signings that would boost the first team rather than nurture youngsters to be either snapped up by the big clubs or sold on for peanuts .
Steve Bull never played at the highest level, even then Wood has probably already played at a higher level than Bull ever did bar nationally.

And to answer the question, yes.. the academy is all it's cracked up to be as they trained Wood in the first place. However the first team coaches (watching him play against the likes of Olsson and McAuley) believed he'll not make it in the PL, so was sold.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2013, 12:48:57 AM »
Re: Wood. I believe the coaches rate Berahino higher as a technically more gifted player, who still scores goals, and more suited to the PL game. If so it was simply a natural move to sell Wood on. Clarke and Ferguson (Pboro) have both spoken highly of Berahino.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 07:24:02 AM »
berahino might be more gifted than wood , but my point is for all the youngsters who are talked about on the forums none have ever broke through to the first team which is what the point of the academy is all about. if they've shown any potential they've been sold on to play for other sides which while boosting our funds with low transfer fees it hasn't helped the first team. all i'm saying is unless we start bringing players through the system  how is it helping the first eleven which is what the aim of the academy is all about.

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Re: Issiah Brown
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 09:21:31 AM »
We need to show a bit more confidence in young players starting with Thorne NOW.
Maybe if younger players at the academy see one or two like Thorne getting a good chance, they will be encouraged and the likes of Issiah Brown may prefer to stay and play a couple of years with us.