Author Topic: Mark Jenkins (Read 23752 times)

Albionic · « **Reply #100 on:** August 07, 2020, 10:56:41 AM »

one for the financial folks to run over, but even to a layman, it isnt good

https://www.marketscreener.com/PALM-ECO-TOWN-DEVELOPMENT-6879071/financials/

LiamTheBaggie · « **Reply #101 on:** August 07, 2020, 11:32:32 AM »

Serves as a good reminder to those who think we will be splashing cash.

I think we need to realign our expectations

baggie53 · « **Reply #102 on:** August 07, 2020, 11:43:10 AM »

Quote from: Albionic on August 07, 2020, 10:56:41 AM

one for the financial folks to run over, but even to a layman, it isnt good

https://www.marketscreener.com/PALM-ECO-TOWN-DEVELOPMENT-6879071/financials/

Maybe he'll put us up for sale at a reduced price to raise some capital

Blowee · « **Reply #103 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:20:07 PM »

Quote from: LiamTheBaggie on August 07, 2020, 11:32:32 AM

Serves as a good reminder to those who think we will be splashing cash.

I think we need to realign our expectations

Seems pretty clear that our business will be late. Probably kick off the season with pretty much the same squad minus Diangana, Krov and Robinson. Signings more likely in September/October.

alwaysbilly · « **Reply #104 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:26:17 PM »

Quote from: Albionic on August 07, 2020, 10:56:41 AM

one for the financial folks to run over, but even to a layman, it isnt good

https://www.marketscreener.com/PALM-ECO-TOWN-DEVELOPMENT-6879071/financials/

Lots of teams in the same boat. I think loans will be the way we go. Clubs outside the top 6 that do spend big money are playing a high risk not knowing the knock on effect of Covid. I am happy we will be sensible. Let the divs down the road spend big and suffer.

Adder · « **Reply #105 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:35:59 PM »

We'll almost certainly use loans but both Dowling and Jenkins have said there is some money to spend, whatever that means.

Lai has stated that the football side of our club has to be self financing and so far I'd say that is largely what has happened. If there is some money in out transfer fund then hopefully it's independent from anything happening with Lai's business.

Blowee · « **Reply #106 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:37:43 PM »

Quote from: alwaysbilly on August 07, 2020, 12:26:17 PM

Lots of teams in the same boat. I think loans will be the way we go. Clubs outside the top 6 that do spend big money are playing a high risk not knowing the knock on effect of Covid. I am happy we will be sensible. Let the divs down the road spend big and suffer.

Think you are right. The big clubs will sign who they want and the rest of us may pick up some good deals from them and Championship steams late in the window. Wages and contracts will need to be moderated significantly. It may even things up a bit for the rest of the Premier league once the top 6 have put their squads together. Mid and lower end clubs canâ€™t afford to have the luxury of players on high wages unless they are likely to make the team.

Standaman · « **Reply #107 on:** August 07, 2020, 12:56:13 PM »

The good news is that Lai sold his shareholding in Palm to fund the purchase of Peace's 88% holding in the club and is no longer a major shareholder of Palm so his prosperity, and by proxy ours are not intertwined with that of Palm which looks utterly grim.

However Peace's 88% is owned by Yunyi Guokai (Shanghai) Sports Development Limited which is in turn owned by Lai (59%) Chinese Investment group Yunyi Investment (23%) and Palm (18%) This Corporate structure was never put together to easily facilitate raising additional equity capital. It is also clear that even if Palm wanted to put additional funds into WBA they are in no position to do so.

The club has only one avenue of external funding in the short to medium term and that is debt. There is currently Â£24m of owners debt on our balance sheet and it would be no surprise if that does not grow significantly this year. How that debt is structured I have no clue but it looks like it is not bearing interest at least at the moment.

I am not entirely sanguine about this situation but it is better than most clubs find themselves in and infinitely better than any club that is in the EFL.

Albionic · « **Reply #108 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:05:59 PM »

Thanks for that re-assurance Stan

can you explain "There is currently Â£24m of owners debt on our balance sheet" please.

Is that the owner owes the club, or, the club owes the owner?

I know that its alleged that Lai had a debt to the club of Â£4m, would that appear as a line in the accounts if repaid?

Standaman · « **Reply #109 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Albionic on August 07, 2020, 01:05:59 PM

Thanks for that re-assurance Stan

can you explain "There is currently Â£24m of owners debt on our balance sheet" please.

Is that the owner owes the club, or, the club owes the owner?

I know that its alleged that Lai had a debt to the club of Â£4m, would that appear as a line in the accounts if repaid?

We owe the ownership Group Â£24m. I have no clue whether the Â£4m of debt that passed from Peace to Lai or Yunyi Guokai has been repaid but lets not ask the people we owe Â£24m to for our money back because that really doesn't work.

Albionic · « **Reply #110 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:17:11 PM »

Quote from: Standaman on August 07, 2020, 01:14:20 PM

We owe the ownership Group Â£24m. I have no clue whether the Â£4m of debit that passed from Peace to Lai or Yunyi Guokai has been repaid but lets not ask the people we owe Â£24m to for our money back because that really doesn't work.

Ah yes, i had forgotten the source of the Â£4m was Jezza, clever sod

Thanks for the clarification, appreciated

Astle1968 · « **Reply #111 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:21:43 PM »

I think the comments last week about us not doing a Norwich or a Villa but being in between meant we were likely to be spending around the Â£35m,Â£40m mark in the summer. However reading this I can see much closer to what Norwich spent with things like the Pereira transfer counted towards any expenditure and then being told that although we spent what Norwich did that doesn't account for deflation and then spun as if it was actually more.

The issue is that although it's early days so far there isn't actually anything at all to suggest that prices are going to drop and certainly not significantly. Bournemouth who apparently have huge financial issues have rejected Â£12m for a GK who was in league 1 last season. QPR have apparently rejected the same for Eze. Benrahma and Watkins are both being talked about leaving for round the Â£25m mark. I can't see Benrahma going for nearly Â£30m and then QPR accepting half that for Eze. I suppose things will be kicked off by the teams at the top and the rest will trickle down but looking at the rumours there, Sancho for Â£120m, Willian aged 32 on a 3 year deal for Arsenal, Chelsea Â£70m+ for Havertz etc it doesnt seem too much of a change from normal.

With all the above said, that still doesn't mean if we are going to much more restricted in our business that its necessarily the wrong thing to do and only time will tell. But although there will likely be some sort of change to how transfers are done as of yet I haven't seen enough to make me think the change is going to be quite as radical as Jenkins says, which makes me concerned we may have misjudged the market and be left looking pretty stupid in 2 months time.

Blowee · « **Reply #112 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:28:55 PM »

Itâ€™s only the big clubs who are likely to spend silly money. As for sales by clubs like Brentford I guess it depends upon the wages/contracts these players have. The EFL clubs may have to sell to cut wage bills. Players in EFL on lower wages may push for moves. Clubs like QPR will have to lower their transfer fee demands towards the end of the window.

Albionic · « **Reply #113 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:39:26 PM »

The lads at the bottom of the pile (trainees / div 4 / semi-pro.....) are going to be the ones who suffer as clubs go bust &/or slim the squads and wage bills. Add in the backroom staff, groundsmen / catering/ medical etc
Its going to be tough for folks whose sole trade is going to be squeezed very hard, meanwhile the fat cats will continue to feast at the trough - disgusting !

If in any doubt look at Arsenal

Astle1968 · « **Reply #114 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:46:16 PM »

In 18/19 Palace (roughly comparable to us) took Â£9m in gate receipts compared to Â£121m in TV revenue. So roughly speaking 1 x Â£7m transfer fee and Â£40k a week difference in our budget.

You only have to look at the state most clubs are in financially (Bournemouth as a prime example) and how they are currently run, racking up huge losses each year, to see that balancing the books is not a priority for PL clubs.

Rightly or wrongly (and from a sustainability/morale point of view probably rightly) if we really are anticipating massive changes to how the market works and the prices paid this summer then as of right now I just don't see that happening.

baggiejohn · « **Reply #115 on:** August 07, 2020, 01:46:23 PM »

Quote from: Standaman on August 07, 2020, 12:56:13 PM

The club has only one avenue of external funding in the short to medium term and that is debt. There is currently Â£24m of owners debt on our balance sheet and it would be no surprise if that does not grow significantly this year. How that debt is structured I have no clue but it looks like it is not bearing interest at least at the moment.
I am not entirely sanguine about this situation but it is better than most clubs find themselves in and infinitely better than any club that is in the EFL.

There is an entry on the "creditors" side of the balance side of circa Â£24 million, which we owe to "Group Undertakings"

There is a corresponding entry on the "debtors" side of the balance sheet of circa Â£7 million which "Group Undertakings" owe to us.

I assume it's the Â£24 million on the "creditors" side that you are refering to, & that Lai has put into the business in the form of a loan?

Standaman · « **Reply #116 on:** August 07, 2020, 02:06:43 PM »

I am referring to the very helpful summary published by Swiss Ramble

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1290202177047105536

alex1 · « **Reply #117 on:** August 07, 2020, 03:07:43 PM »

Maybe the clubs who can supplement their squad with a steady flow of players from their Academy (if they have one), will be in the stronger position. I would have thought that puts us in as strong a position as many of the lower Premier clubs. (The top 6 clubs are in a different category as they have the funds to spend big in the transfer market).
Its why I'm a strong supporter of keeping our Academy competitive. Obviously some will regretably not make the grade (maybe Leko and Field are examples), but if we can continue to attract alot of the best youth prospects, it should give us a fighting chance long term.

baggie82 · « **Reply #118 on:** August 07, 2020, 10:27:33 PM »

Quote from: alex1 on August 07, 2020, 03:07:43 PM

Maybe the clubs who can supplement their squad with a steady flow of players from their Academy (if they have one), will be in the stronger position. I would have thought that puts us in as strong a position as many of the lower Premier clubs. (The top 6 clubs are in a different category as they have the funds to spend big in the transfer market).
Its why I'm a strong supporter of keeping our Academy competitive. Obviously some will regretably not make the grade (maybe Leko and Field are examples), but if we can continue to attract alot of the best youth prospects, it should give us a fighting chance long term.

Keeping the academy at a running cost of Â£2m per season is a no brainer. Nathan Ferguson alone pays for the running cost for 4-5 years, let alone O'Shea, Tulloch, Edwards, Leko etc. It's essential that we keep bringing through existing prospects and we get the best one's minutes with us or on loan.

TheBaggieMan · « **Reply #119 on:** August 07, 2020, 11:26:34 PM »

An excellent article about Mark Jenkinsâ€™ future beliefs and very logical. Somewhat reassuring that West Brom are in a relatively stronger position than many clubs in the lower reaches of Premier League and certainly of those in the Championship. If what Jenkins predicts come to fruition, thank God we did achieve promotion but with the precarious overall position he paints, one can fully understand his retiring.

In many ways, if the transfer window does play out in the way suggested, it will be a double edged sword. We may be able to recruit and attract quality players from both two top leagues BUT, will we be able to off-load those we do not want especially those on longer, highly paid contracts.

Take HRK, Zohore, Phillips etc. They will be a drain on our budgeted wages costs with potential buyers not prepared to pay any fee for their services let alone meet their current earnings. Even if loaned we may be forced to continue to fund a hefty proportion of their basic salaries which again would damage our overall wage structure and budget.

Interesting times albeit of concern. It is what it is and will be what it will be.

Standaman · « **Reply #120 on:** August 08, 2020, 11:55:06 AM »

Couple of articles stemming from Jenkins interview with E&S

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2020/08/08/player-sales-to-boost-west-brom-budget/

Basically spells out the financial position Â£40m down before we have even kicked a ball at Premier League level.
Confirms any money raised or saved goes back into the player budget.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2020/08/08/mark-jenkins-eighteen-years-in-west-brom-hotseat/

Valedictory interview of some interest and owns up to a few mistakes and claims a few successes I'd give anyone that after 18 years.

Adder · « **Reply #121 on:** August 08, 2020, 12:27:47 PM »

May not be the right place for this question but do we know when we get the money for Ferguson ? Has it been decided how much it is ? Presumably this would go into the transfer kitty when it arrives.

Standaman · « **Reply #122 on:** August 08, 2020, 12:46:00 PM »

Quote from: Adder on August 08, 2020, 12:27:47 PM

May not be the right place for this question but do we know when we get the money for Ferguson ? Has it been decided how much it is ? Presumably this would go into the transfer kitty when it arrives.

At the moment it is "subject to tribunal" we could agree something with Palace but I think it is more likely to go to a tribunal when that will happen I don't know.

KnaveofAlbion · « **Reply #123 on:** August 08, 2020, 01:12:53 PM »

Quote from: Standaman on August 08, 2020, 12:46:00 PM

At the moment it is "subject to tribunal" we could agree something with Palace but I think it is more likely to go to a tribunal when that will happen I don't know.

My understanding is that because we accepted a Â£11m bid from them, that that has set the tone for the negotiating.

Even allowing for what has happened in the world since then we should be looking at around that level. I'd be surprised if it's below Â£8m. Given NF's knee it might be more weighted to appearances and the like than the average one.

I'm just curious as to whether Palace have any option to reject the Tribuneral's findings? If they came back with "oh wow, he's a talent and given Ake's fee we think Â£25m is fair", do Palace have an option to say "nope" and walk away?

SmethDan · « **Reply #124 on:** August 08, 2020, 01:25:03 PM »

Quote from: KnaveofAlbion on August 08, 2020, 01:12:53 PM

My understanding is that because we accepted a Â£11m bid from them, that that has set the tone for the negotiating.

Even allowing for what has happened in the world since then we should be looking at around that level. I'd be surprised if it's below Â£8m. Given NF's knee it might be more weighted to appearances and the like than the average one.

I'm just curious as to whether Palace have any option to reject the Tribuneral's findings? If they came back with "oh wow, he's a talent and given Ake's fee we think Â£25m is fair", do Palace have an option to say "nope" and walk away?

Not sure but I wouldn't have thought so now that they're committed to a three year contract with Ferguson himself.